PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 46 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, APRIL 27,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

April 27. 1970, Tape 6~. Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair: HON. J.R.SMALLWOOD: (Premier): Mr. Speaker. _ I wish to express a very warm welcome indeed, to forty more students from St. Augustine~s at Littledale from grade VIII. We had a group of them here I think one day last week, and I expressed the cordial welcome of the House to them at that time, and now we have forty more of them from grade VIII, in charge of Sister Mary Eugenio. and this must make about eighty or ninety or something altogether from St. Augustine's. Littledale. in the present session of the House.

I have already told the-House. and I suppose I do not need to repeat, that I have a particular personal pleasure in welcoming the students from St. Augustine's, because it happens to be my own old school. When I was a very small boy I lived not very far from Littledale, and Littledale was the nearest, the closest school to me so they sent me off as a small boy, and I would trundle off with my books every day and walk to the school. Now that is not the only school I ever attended, I attended a lot of schools.

Somebody said r here that I was a dropout in a lot of schools, maybe a dropout from more schools than anyone ever dropped out of in Newfoundland. Well actually the dropping out was largely because of the change of residence. You know, unlike other children, I had to go where my parents went. When they shifted house I had to go with them. The would send me to the nearest school there was, regardless of what school it happened to be, so I went to St.

Mary's, at the Southside by the Long Bridge, and I went to Centennary Methodist School upon Gilbert St., off Spri!gdale St., and·I went to the Bishop's Hall down by the old tobacco factory which was Anglican, no it was called British Hall, I remember. ~ent to it, I sould remember. British Hall and I ended up in Bishop Field College. So I had a crack at .all of them, Methodist. Roman Catholic. Anglican, and I ended up a sor of mixture of the whole lot of them. Here we are today, these beautiful girls, the most beautiful girls in Newfoundland. except for the girl~ that were here last week from the same school.

They were just as beautiful, but the most beautiful and intelligent 2779

AprH 27, 1910, Tape 6:}J·, Page 2 -- apb girls in the whole Province. The like of them are not to be seen anywhere else in Newfoundland, and I cahllenge the Leader of the Opposition to get up and contradict me. He has to agree with me, and if he does not he is in the soup, he is in trouble.

He has to agree with me that the most beautiful girls, the most intelligent, and the lovliest girls in the whole Province under their teacher Sister Mary Eugenio, and I wpuld assume that Sister is like themselves a Newfoundlander, certainly very, very warmly welcomed by all of here in this Chamber, including the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources who is just coming in with a big armful of material, and I suspect that we are going to hear a big speech from him today, but I do not know what about.

If the students will stay they will doubtless hear some important work done in the present session, and now if he has the nerve, if he has the nerve to do it, the Leader of the Opposition will get up and disagree with me when I say that these are the most beautiful and intelligent girls we have had here this session except for those that were here from the same school last week. MR. A.J.MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier talks about nerves, if he had the nerves I have had these past couple of weeks here, but I would like to join with the Premier very sincerely, with reference to his compliments to the young ladies, there used to be a saying that "I bet you tell that to all the girls," and I think that applies in the Premier's case. We are very happy indeed, to have these young ladies with us this afternoon accompanied by their teacher Sister Mary Eugenio, and I feel that t~ey will enjoy themselves here this afternoon.

The only attachment I have to Littledale at the present time is that I used the swimming pool one night and I thought it was beautiful in there, but as far as attending school MR. SMALLWOOD: (J.R.): Has the hon. Leader of the Opposition ever been as far west as Littledale? I thought he al~ays stayed in the east end. HR. MURPHY: If the Premier only knew, I am a west ender by birth. HR. SMALLWOOD: Is that so, and deserted it? MR. MURPHY: And deserted it, but Mr. Speaker, quite seriously I join with the Premier and the rest of the House I am sure in welcoming these young ladies 2780

April 27, 1970, Tape 63i, Page 3 -- apb and I trust that they will further their education today, and that the Sister in charge will not regret this visit, and say "that is the last time that you are going to that place." HR~ SMALLWOOD: Oh no. not while I -here MR. MURPHY: We are very happy to have them, and kids from all over the Province, and it looks like Littledale is having sort of a monoply on the visits here. I do not know what it is.

Perhaps it is because of the great to ex-pupil that they come in here 1 admire, and they might have a Joe Smallwood day one of these days, and dear Lord only knows, and perhaps there might be a national holiday every year for the students,where they would observe this day, and I am sure when the monument is erected to the Premier in his retirement they could come fairly regularly and lay some flowers or something on it to pay a tribute to the Premier who served the Province for twenty years and then decided to retire whether, I do not know whether he will have decided to retire, but he will have retired at that time.

I am very happy indeed to welcome these students with Sister Mary Eugenio, and trust that they will have a very enjoyable few hours here in the House with us. BON. W.J.CALLAHAN (Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources): Mr. Speaker, I hope no one thinks I am arranging the visits of my neighbours the students at Littledale, but as I said the other day when Littledale students come here in view of the fact my three daughters, and two of my nieces, and if I may say so Mr. Speaker, one of my nieces are in the gallery today.

I would not have a very happy home-coming when I arrived home tonight if I did not say a word of welcome to those students. I am not going to make a long speech, I simply want to say that I am very pleased to see them here, and that I hope very soon some of the younger students will come or that I last long enough in this Bouse for my own daughters to get to be older students so that they can come and see that I do a little work when I am not at home which is most of the time. I certainly have pleasure Mr. Speaker in welcoming them here. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to welcome Sister Mary Eugenio and the girls from Littledale. We trust that they will have an educational 2781

April 27, 1970, Tape 6~', Page 4 -- apb and perhaps hopefully entertaining few minutes or few hours in the House of Assembly. PRESENTING PETITIONS: PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: NOTICE OF MOTION: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, in reply to question 165, on the Order Paper of March 5th. in the name of the bon. member for Gander, I have to say that in connection with the first part the number is 120 personnel, of whom 118 are salaried, and 2 are paid by the hour. Part two; a total of forty-five personnel of whom fourteen are salaried and thirty-one are hourly.

And I ought to add that these figures do not include residents of Bishop's Falls who were able to get employment with contractors or sub-contractors of the commission. They do not include also personnel of the commission, the Power Commission transferred from other areas of the Province and now residing at Bishop's Falls. Question 221. on the Order Paper of March lOth. in the name of the bon. the member for St. John's West.

In reply I have to say that no provision bas been made for non-collectable accounts receivable in the financial statements of the power distribution districts for the year ended March 31st. past. 2782

April 27, 1970 Tape #635" Page 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: March 31, 1969. And that it was the policies of the districts to reflect the non-collectable accounts receivable in the financial statements when they became bad debts. And that the estimated amounts of non-collectable accounts receivable at March 31, 1969, were as follows: The Power distribution district of Labrador; $4,400. The power distribution of South Newfoundland; $1,200. The power distribution district of Northeast Newfoundland; $250. Question No. (273) on the Order Paper of April 7, in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West.

In reply to the first part, I have to say that the amount is $942,360 to March 31, 1970. The estimated cost of completing all repairs is $1,100,000. The answer to the second part, that is the amount of revenue lost by the Power Commission as a result of being unable to deliver power to customers due to the damage suffered. As a result of that sleet storm February, the answer is approximately $136,000. Lost sales, lost income. In reply to the third part of the question, the answer is "no".

The answer to the fourth part of the question is that the Commission is insured for sleet damages to its transmission system, in the minimum amount of $1 million, with $50,000 deductible. The claim up to the amount of coverage is presently being adjusted and settled with the insurers. In reply to the fifth part of the question. The answer is that all the damage to transmission··lines have been rebuilt and restored to service with substantially the same designed criteria as were used in the original design for heavy icing zones.

It is economically impractical to erect a transmission system which could withstand such unusually severe sleet storm conditions as those that obtained on the occasion in question. It would be economically possible but impractical and go to the expense of erecting a transmission system whieh would withstand a storm of the size and nature that occurred in February, that may not occur for another quarter of a century, or even longer. MR. CROSBIE: May I ask a supplementary question? Now the hon. the Premier said that their sleet damage insurance.

That their insurance would cover for example loss in revenue -- would that loss be covered by insurance? 2783

April 27, 1970 Tape #6J5 Page 2 Or was there just actual physical damage? MR. SMALLWOOD: I would be very glad to take that question as notice if the bon. member would put it on the Order Paper. MR. ROWE: In answer ·to Question (230) on the Order Paper of April 6, asked by the bon. the leader of the Opposition. Do the school boards present estimates to the Government covering anticipated costs of providing school bus transportation. The answer to that is yes.

And I should explain perhaps that in the past and up until now, school boards have not been in a position to submit these estimates in time for the official government estimates. The official government estimates are compiled around the end of the calender year, and prepared for printing actually early in January, and very often many school boards are not in a position at that time, at least they have not been in the past to anticipate exactly what their transportation needs are going to be the following September. The school baaris operate on a year that starts in September,

whereas the government operates on a year that starts in April, which means that the Estimates have to be prepared some months ahead of that. Do the school boards in all or most instances enter into contracts for the supply of this service? I think yes, the answer in most cases. I think there are two in Newfoundland - two boards in Newfoundland which owned their own school buses. There is nothing to prevent a school board from buying and owning its own school buses, or from renting or leasing school buses, and operating themselves, but in the great majority of cases, they call for tenders.

They call for tenders and they select other things being equal, they select the lowest tender and award the contract to a private operator. And this system is operated I might say, very well, according to all the advice, all the observations that I have been able to make myself in the advice I have received from others. What was the total reouested by school boards for the year '69-70? And by what sum if any was the total reduced before inclusion in the Estimates1 The total requested ·on paper was $3,581,000 just over $3~ million, and we in our Estimates this was something 2784

April 27, 1970 Tape I6J5 Page 3 just $3 million. We reduced that by something like $600,000. Now what was the reason for the reduction if any in presenting the Estimates? Well the reason for the reduction if any; well the reasons could be many fold. It could be in some cases that Boards have over-estimated in the opinion of the competent officials. It could be that and very often it is, of course, the fact that every request for money in the Government service, is usually higher and can be given to that particular thing.

Boards would like to have more money for maintenance and Boards would like to have more money for building schools and so on, but they have to be reduced proportionately and transportation requests are treated in this regard, no differently from any other requests. What were the reasons for the increase of $385,000 authorized by Special Warrant on July 27, 1969 in the Vote for School Bus transportation?

This was the fact that a number of Boards, my hon. friend will remember that that was last year that Boards consolidated from something like nearly 300 Boards, they are reduced down until today they are I am speaking from memory now, because the full consolidation has not been affected on the southcoast. But I think there are thirty odd Boards, thirty-seven I think it is in number. And many of the Boards, or at least several of the Boards had to take on commitments that they had not realized were in existence prior to the consolidation.

And this is not only true of course with school bus transportation, and in one or two cases, there were genuine emergencies and the government therefore voted this additional money. In actuality it was found that $200,000 was all that was needed to carry the Boards over this emergency.

We have to regard this past year as being in the nature of a very special year, because most Boards were plowing new ground, so to speak, and many of them had taken on responsibilities - the nature, the scope and the of magnitude of which a great many of them had been ignorant before they got into the business of consolidation and integration. However, it has worked· out very well, and a result of the dedication and the religious work that the Board members, the Chairman and the Churches and all concerned have been able to put into it. I have the answer to another question here also 2785

April 27, 1970 Tape #6)5 Page 4 I believe, on bus transportation asked by the hon. MR. HICg}urn: Would you permit a supplementary question? For the purpose of clarification, are school buses allowed to be used for any purpose other than the transportation of school pupils? MR. ROWE: Well this comes from the next question actually. It is No. (449). Incidentally Mr.

Chairman, the question just asked by the hon. the member for Burin reminded me of something I meant to say at the beginning of this and it is this: That every member of this House is I am sure, from time to time approached by people, out in the district regarding transportation and help for transporting children from here and there. And complaints regarding the inadequacies of the transportation service, or the complete absence of it.

So it struck me just a few minutes ago as I was reviewing these answers here, that perhaps it might be a service to hon. members if I were to get a copy of all the forumla, of the transportation and regulations and give to each bon. member,for reference. This would sometimes I am sure, facilitate as being able to answer correspondence and other context coming to him from his constituents on this matter. 2786

April 27, 1970, Tape 636, Page 1 -- apb MR. BURGESS: Question please. Would the hon. minister be in a position to say if a request for a grant for subsidization of school bus transportation was received from Labrador City last year? HON. F. W. RO\.ffi (Minister of Education): I answered that question Mr. Speaker earlier, probably the hon. member was not here.

We had quite a great deal of representation from individuals and groups in Labrador City about the problem of transportation there, and we were forc:ed to tell them as we have told people in every large town in Newfoundland, because I say large town, since that is usually where it comes from of course including St. John's. Our bus transportation policy does not cover internal transportation within a municipality itself. For example, it would not cover, let us take as an example one of the schools nearest to us the Holy Heart of Mary which happens to be the biggest school I believe in Newfoundland.

That school has a tremendous transportation system, but it can under our policy, they cannot get any subsidization and subsidy for transporting a student say from the far east end or the far west end of St. John's. It may be two miles, but they cannot get any subsidization for that. They can get and do get subsidy for transporting their children from Logy Bay and from Torbay and from the other end Pouch Cove and even as far away as parts of the Topsail Highway and so on.

I also said in answer to that question that if we were to adopt a policy which would look after that on the present formula of say ninety - ten, or seventy-five - twenty-five it would cost us instead of as it is costing us in the coming year something like going up toward $4 million, it would cost us $10 million to do it. This is why of course we have not been able to look at it. We are up against a simple factor of money.

It would be nice if we could do that, if we could subsidize the transportation of children within this city or in Gr~d Falls, or in Corner Brook, or in even the smaller large towns like Lewisporte and Baie Verte and so on,.where you have children very often living as much as two or two and one half miles away from the schools. We just cannot do it, it is too rich for Newfoundland's blood. It is like a lot of other things that we would like to do, and people would like to have us do, but the Province cannot afford it without putting on 2787

~r~~ ~,, l~1u, L&pe b36, Page 2 -- apb unbearable taxation on our people. Question 449, Mr. Speaker, asked by the hon. member for St. John's West. Does the Government make a financial contribution to school boards of St. John's in connection with the school bus service serving the regional high schools of St. John's, and if so what is the amount of the contribution for the financial year of the Government that ended March 3lst.last. The answer is yes, but again of course this is for bringing children into St. John's and the amount of money involved was $145,209.32.

The second part of that question ~as,under the terms of Government policy covering assistance to school boards who operated school bus service, are the school boards of St. John's permitted to use the said school buses that is assisted for purposes of transporting school pupils resident within the boundaries of St. John's to and from school?

Under our policy no, under our formula no, now in some cases my. honesty compels me to admit that we have heard and we know of cases where school boards have made some private arrangements of their own and I am not sure that there is anything particularly wrong about it, it does not cost the Government any more money and it is not covered under our transportation policy. But as I said earlier I think it would be a good idea Mr. Speaker, if I were to send out to the them the book that we have covering all the bus transportation policy and formuli and regulations. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker this is a supplementary question. If it came to the attention of your department that the service you were subsidizing was being used to transport pupils within &.community, what steps do you take then? Do you instruct them to cease it or what do you do? MR. ROWE (F.W.): Well Mr. Speaker, that would depend on of course whether or not we were being asked to.pay for that.

If it was found that we were being asked to pay for that, or to subsidize it,we would of course immediately not suspend the subsidy for that portion, but we, if we had overpaid, then we would of course demand repayment as you would in any overpayment for say a welfare or unemployment insurance case or anything of that sort. We do not cover it under our policy. Boards may sometimes have private arrangements at their own ezpense, or at the expense of the parents concerned. We do not go interfering 2788

Aprl..L 1./ 1 l~ 10 1 ·~:ape 636 1 Page 3 -- apb with a thing like that as long as it does not cost the Government any money and as long of course, as it is within the law. HON. W.N.ROWE (Minister of Social and Community Development): Mr. Speaker, I would like ~o table the answer to question 210. on the Order Paper of }~rch lOth. asked by the bon. member for Humber East. HON. E.N.DAWE (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker. in answer to question no. 288, on the Order Paper of Wednesday, April 8th. asked by the bon. member for St. John's Centre.

First part of the question. the capital and amount is $5 million, in answer to the first part of the question, depreciation rates, building two per cent 0 furniture and equipment ten per cent, period of time three months. In answer to the second part of the question, what was the date of the first occupancy of (

a) the apartments the answer is March 1969, commercial space, January 1969. In answer to the question 291, on the Order Paper of Wednesday April 8th. asked bv the hon. member for St. John's Centre. In answer to the question, it has always been the policy of St. John's Housing Corporation to provide for depreciation of its fixed assets. A division for depreciation of fixed assets is a currently accepted principal of accounting. That is question 291. In answer to question 292, on Wednesday's Order Paper April 8th. asked by the bon. member for St. John's Centre.

The answer to the question, the capital amount $4 million, banked demand loans, interest rate eight per cent annual average. Interest cost on bank demand loans charged to operations for 1969 1 $85 1 696. Operatin period three months. Answer to questions 325, asked by the bon. member for Burin, on Thursday's Order Paper April 9th. I table the accounts of St. John's Housing Corporation and the answer why these accounts were not published in the public accounts for that year, is because the report was forwarded to the Department of Finance on February llth.l970, and enquiries since that time St.

John~s Housing Corporation were advised that they were not published with the public accounts for that year ending March 31st. 1969 0 because they were informed that a cut-off date of February 4th.l970 had been established for presentation of accounts to the Department of Finance, and 2789

April 27. 1970. Tape 636. Page 4-- apb St. John's Housing Corporation was not informed by the Department of Finance of this cut-off date. So therefore. I table the report of St. John's Housing Corporation. 2790

MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question 484 in the name of the bon. member for St. John's West. On at least one previous occasion, Mr. Speaker, I had a similar question as the one I am about to answer. I do not know exactly what it is the bon. member is trying to get at but because of the time involved in getting this information by the officials in my department I would appreciate it in the future if he would try to ask for the information in one question instead of having to go back over it two or three times. The answer to part (1) is- , the answer to part (1), Mr. Speaker, - MR.

CROSBIE: On a point of order! This is not the same question that was asked earlier and does not request the minister to go over the same grounds. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the information is similar information as far as I can see except the time periods are different. The answer to part (1) is 153 houses. The answer to part (2) is $190,668.00. The least amount paid was $300. and the largest amount $4,500. The answer to part (3) is the title vested- ' in the Minister of Public Works is forty-three. Ownership granted to occupants is 110.

The answer to part (4) is the value of the houses where the ownership was granted to the occupant was $139,211. MR. KEOUGH: I beg leave to table the answers to the following questions: 309 on the Order Paper of April 8th standing in the name of the bon. member for Burin. 382 on the Order Paper of April lOth standing in the name of the bon. member for St. John's East Extern. 395 on the Order Paper of April 13th standing in the name of the bon. member for St. John's West. Question 358 on the Order Paper of April lOth standing in the name of the hon. member for Burin.

Question 464 on the Order Paper of April 17th standing in the name of the bon. member for Bonavista North. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on orders of the day I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question. Can the Minister of Justice, Sir, inform members on this side of the House what the order of business is going to be at least a day ahead so that we can prepare ourselves?

For example, we do not know yet until the leader of the House announces what business is going to be discussed today whether it is estimates or what department, whether it is the budget speech or legislation and unless we can have this information at least twentv- 2791

April 27th, 1970 Tape 637 JM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: four hours ahead, Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to prepare. So my question is could the leader of the House give us an idea at least twenty-four hours ahead what is going to come up particularily with the estimates so that we will know what departments and what the order of business is? Another question, Mr.

Speaker, on orders of the day: could the leader of the House tell us when the Government is going to proceed with motion (2) which is to appoint a select committee to consider the report of the auditor general and it has been on the Order Paper now for some weeks, in fact before we adjourned in March? MR. CURTIS: As the hon. member knows the Minister of Finance is not in the Island just now but just in a matter of course we will clear this up. On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Nomenclature Board Act, 1959", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fire Prevention Act, 1954", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the erder Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Respecting Private Investigators And Security Guards", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Act, 1969", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Social Assistance Act, 1962", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Welfare Of Children Act", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Payment Of Bounties On The Construction Of Fishing Ships", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. Motion, a Bill, "

An Act Respecting The Marketing Of Salt Fish", be now read a third time: MR. CURTIS: I move, Mr. Speaker, that this Bill be recommitted. On motion carried: On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Marketing Of Salt Fish", Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 2792

.. _t""_ "-~ .H"l - J Committee of the Whole on Bill, "An Act Respecting The Marketing Of Salt Fish" MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, Bill No. (48) which we are now considering was before the House last week and at that time we struck out Section (24). "This Act shall come into force on a date to be proclaimed by Lieutenant-Governor in Council." It is the intention of the Government to bring in this Bill forthwith, but one

section is not ready yet to be brought in. It is the

section dealing with the sales of fish, limiting the sale of fish, and it would be most unwise to bring in this

section prohibiting the sale of fish until regulations have been made. So I am asking the hon. the Premier if he will move that

Section 24 be replaced to read as follows: "

Section 11 shall come into force on a day to be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council." This is the

section dealing with the buying and selling of fish. The effect of this amendment will be that the Act will come into force immediately it is proclaimed, and

Section 11 will come into force as and when it is proclaimed, and it will be proclaimed when regulations are ready. MR MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may while we are on this section, I am just wondering,and I think it is very pertinent at this time, as to what will happen to NAFEL and more particularily to twenty-eight employees who have worked for many years with this firm? I was wondering if there was any provision made for these employees or just what the attitude is? This is to do with the buying and selling of the fishing permit, when it ceases and so on and so forth.

They are at present in the busines of selling fish, when their license ceases to sell fish I am just wonderi~g has there been any provision made between this Salt Cod Fish Marketing Board and NAFEL as to what provision will be made for the twenty-eight employees who have given many years in the business of handling fish sales for Newfoundland1 MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): I do not think that is material to

Section 24 which was simply the coming into force of the Act. MR. S~LUTOOD: Mr. Chairman, I think- that while it is absolutely true that the House itself which is greater than the Committee of the House adopted the 2793

April 27th, 1970 MR. SMALLWOOD! Tape 637 JM - 4 principal of that clause and we must therefore not debate that clause now. It is not debatable, it has been adopted by the House. It ia perhaps proper in considering it to raise the question that mY bon • . friend has raised. 1 think that might be considered if the Chair is a little lenient at all.

It is not questioning the princip .al of that clause because the clause is not debatab,le, it has been adopted by the House but arising out of the proposal now that it shall not presently be proclaimed, shall not presently be formed part of the Act and not formed part of the Act until in fact it is proclaimed. In debating that it might be in order to wonder what was going to happen to certain employees of certain organizations and if Your Honour will allow it then I would proceed to say this - 2794

April 27, 1970 Tape #638 Page 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: That the Board has just been constituted in part at; any rate, the Chairman of the Board has been appointed, Dr. Ernest Weeks, and the President and Chief Executive has been appointed, Mr. Aiden Maloney. The Board have been in to have a chat with me and I am therefore, familiar with its present status, which is that of the very rudimentary body, recruiting staff and trying to put an organization together. I will give you one example of that, Mr.

Richard Crewe who works with this Govern­ ment as a market specialist has been asked for by the new Salt Cod Fish Association, and they would like to have him on loan, and we have agreed to give him on loan for a number of months, on the grounds that they need him badly and we do not need him now, since marketing has become purely a federal function.

Similarly the Board will look for other men and try to recruit them, and I have no doubt whatsoever that they will try to recruit the men in the offices of NAFEL, because there in those offices are some pretty experienced men, when it comes to marketing salt cod fish in the foreign market. In fact you have perhaps more experience there than in any other office in Canada. I do not think that any salt cod fish exporter in Nova Scotia or any other part of Canada has had as much experience as NAFEL has had, or has today as many experienced persons as NAFEL has in its offices.

So obviously the Board will endeavour to put men there. But I would utter this word of warning. The cod fishery does not exist for the merchants who are in it. The cod fishery exists if it exists for anyone in particular, surely for the fishermen who produce the fish. The production and the curing of the fish is the great essential part of the cod fishin~ industry. And therefore, the first purpose of the Board, the marketing Board must surely be the welfare of the fishermen.

Now if you have other Newfoundlanders, and they are not less Newfoundlanders because they work in merchan~'s offices, or on merchant's premises. And if you have other Newfoundlanders who may become redundant in the fishing industry, because the marketing is to be done by one outfit rather than eight or ten or twenty. If you have men, Newfoundlanders who become redundant, it is deeply to be 2795

April 27. 1970 Tape #638 Page 2 regretted. but you cannot have an omelet without breaking eggs. And you cannot have a one desk. one single unitary organization to market the whole salt cod fish production of this nation of Canada without some persons becoming redundant in some of the many offices that have existed up to now for the marketing of t~at same fish. If this marketing is now to be done by one outfit in place of maybe twenty or thirty or forty, then inevitably some men are going to lose their jobs. It is I suppose, a form of rationalization. A form, if you like of automation.

A form of a labour saving, and these will not be the first men to fall victims to that kind of progress. Certainly the Salt Cod Fish Corporation and the Salt Cod Fish Marketing Board within that Corporation will endeavour to recruit the best staff they can find in Canada, and I suspect most of them will be here in this Province of Newfoundland where we have had more experience than in any other part of Canada in marketing fish in many countries. in at least three Continents. And that will. take care of a number, but there are bound to be some who will have to look for employment elsewhere.

Now this is not only in the NAFEL offices, but in the offices of fish merchants, and on the premises of fish merchants, because Sir, if the actual collecting of the fish from the fishermen and the packing of it is to be done by a number of merchants for the Board on commission. And the premises of a number of merchants are to be used, the fact remains that a number of merchants will not be employed and their premises will not be used, and workers employed on those premises will become pretty well redundant in this great operation. Now this is the breaking of the eggs to make the omelet.

The first great purpose is to make the fisheries profitable to the primary producers engaged in the Fisheries, and it is their interest that is being considered first and foremost. It is a long answer to my hon. friend, but it was an important question I think, that deserved a very thorough answer. On Motion, that the Committee rise, report having passed Bill No. (48) with some amendments. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. 2796

April 27, 1970 Tape #638 Page 3 On Motion report received and adopted. On Motion Bill ordered read a third time now by leave. On Motion, A Bill,"An Act Respecting The Marketing Of Salt Fish," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. HON. L. R. CURTIS (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I would move that the second reading of this Bill be rescinded, and that the Bill be now read a second time. I might say if the Clerk will circulate the reprint. Since this Bill was passed second reading, we have as the Rouse knows, passed a Bill for the marketing of Salt Codfish.

In connection with the Saltcod Fish Bill, there was an expropriation Bill permitting the Minister of Public Works to expropriate property that may be required by the marketing corporation. In order to have our legislation tidy and rather than to have two expropriation Bills the one year, which would be conflicting, I was wondering if the House would rather that we re­ consider the second reading of this Bill No. (9) and I circulate it now. The only difference between the new Bill and the old Bill, is that there is an additional

section two. As bon. members know the Governor-in-Council may expropriate through the Minister of Public Works for certain purposes, the object of

section two is to enlarge those purposes and permit the minister to expropriate when requested by the Salt Codfish Board so to do. And I would therefore, ask bon. members who have destroyed their original copies of Bill (9) that they substitute new Bill (9) reprint, of which I would now ask to move the second reading. MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved that Bill (9) be recommited for second reading. On Motion, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Expropriation Act, 1964" read a second time, ordered referred to Committee of the Whole House now by leave. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Bill No.

(9) On Motion, that the Committee rise, report having passed Bill No. (9) without amendment. 2797

April 27, 1970 Tape # 638 Page 4 On Motion, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Expropriation Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. 2798

April 27th., 1970 tape no 639 Page 1 MR. CURTIS: Call no. 24 and no. 25, which I believe are minor bills. Bill no. 24. Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend The Child Welfare Act of 1964." MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this Bill is merely to confirm in legislation a distinction which already exists in practise. When an infant is turned over to the care of the Department of Social Services and Rehabititation, every effort is made to find it adoptive parents.

An effort which has been assisted tremendously by the co-operation of the clergy in the children's crusade, Adoption Sunday Program initiated last fall, as well as, through the efforts of television, radio and press media; especially _. the continuing series in our Provincial morning paper. While the search for adoptive parents is in progress these infants must be housed and cared for. This Bill, Mr. Speaker, now distinguishes the homes which receive these babies and terms them receiving homes rather than lumping them together with those homes accommodating other P-rovincial wards under one term foster homes.

This distinction, Mr. Speaker, is more than merely a matter of semantics. Receiving homes and its owners must measure up carefully to set standards both physical and psychological before we entrust an infant to their care and because of the extra brudentof work involved as well as the uncertain term of the custodianship, special rates of recompense are set. The term "foster home" Mr. Speaker will in future exclude these foster homes and refer to homes accommodating beyond the infants' stage up to the age of seventeen.

As adoptions are much less frequent in this stage range, children placed in foster homes will be there for a much longer period of tim~~ and it is hoped will receive real parental guidance and affection from their foster parents. May I, Mr. Speaker, in cle~ing my remarks on this Bill pay tribute to our citizens who provide both receiving and foster care to those children 2799

who for one reason or another become wards of this Province. These provide that care and affection so necessary to the wholesome growth of any youngster and which any other children get from their natural parents. We, as a Province, set up a scale of allowances which tries to provide for the material needs of our wards. We could not ever remotely, Mr. Speaker hope to budget enough dollars to buy the love and parental guidance lavished by so many of the parents in our receiving homes and foster homes on those children who are the direct responsibility of the Government of this Province. ~rr:.

Speaker, there is just one other point that I would like to mention in reference to this Bill that was raised by the hon. member for Humber East, in errar actually, because there was some confusion over the Bills that were under discussion at the time, and he was wondering why we had put in the judge who makes the order, "shall." I think he suggested that we use "may" instead of "shall." I would like to p6int out, although the hon. member is not in hisseat at this moment, but this had to be done, because in about impossible two per cent of the area of Newfoundland, it is absolutely to get the reports tkd that we~other than from the courts.

I am thinkin~ of places like Black Tickle, Car~igpt · and these areas •. In ninety-eight per cent of the Province, we can get the information we need, in about two per cent of the Province we would not be able to get the information that - only through the ma~istrates or the courts. I move second reading of the Bill, Mr. Speaker. On 1110tion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare Act of 1964", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Hhole House on tomorrow. Motion, second reading of a Bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Departmer. 6f Public Welfare Act of 1965." MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in support of this Act, Further To Amend The Depart- ment of Public Welfare Act, 1965, may I clarify the philosophy behind the propo~ change of name to the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation1 This is not just an attempt, Mr. Speaker, to substitute for the unpleasant word, •·welfare'' a more euphonious expression. 2800

April 27th., 1970 Tape no. 639 Page 3 Public Welfare, Sir, is associated in the minds of a great number of our citizens with the rather grudging aid given to maintain on some bare subsistent standard of living; those individuals and families who are unable to earn their own livlihoods through some physical or physiological fault of their own. This number of individuals and families, Mr. Speaker, who are unable to earn their own livlihoods is not going to decrease in the future. We cannot just hide our heads in the sands of time, the great heale~ and hope that the monster of poverty will go away. The poor, Mr.

Speaker, you will have with you always, and I see this to be true in the future, in the sense that improvements in the technology of production~ are going to phase out more and more the use of hands in favor of more and more competent and sophisticated machines. For example, Mr.

Speaker, by the year 1985 which is just fifteen years from now, it has been calculated that only two per cent of the work force of the United States will be required to produce all the goods and all the manufactured products; tires, typewriters, toys, cars, computers, aosmetics and so on required by that countries quarter billion plus population. Even ten years ago, Mr. Speaker, it was prophesied by economists that by the year 2000, only twenty-five per cent of Canadians would be employed, as we understand employment today, and that the other three-quarters of the population would be paid not to work.

If we take a good hard look at the employment figures on a cyclical basis, we will see that we are already advanced, Mr. Speaker, ·into the obsolescence of hands instead of being replaced by machines. So for the future, Sir, we should te~to think of the poor as those who are unemployed/rather than those who are without goods and services, for those who are forced by improved production technology into unemployment are just as important as consumers as those who are decreasing - decreasing the total number of people who will be able to find employment.

They have needs and wants to be satisfied, Sir, and if these three-quarters of the consumer market by the year 2000 were somehow cancelled out, just think, Mr. Speaker, of the disastrous impact upon our channels of distribution and industry 2801

April 27, 1970 Tape no. 639 Page 4 itself. The tremendous cornucopia resulting from technological advance would be halted by a constipation of products and services that would clog up both channels of distribution and production lines, and this could cause a real depression, Mr. Speaker, in the midst of plenty. Well I hope the bon. Leader of the Opposition _is paying very strict attention to this. Mr.

Speaker, our Federal Government is currently ~estling with this problem of how to ensure distribution of the fruits of our gross national product and of the gross world, a product to those whom technological advance has robbed of the opportunity to earn it. Until guaranteed minimum income or reverse income tax or social credits or some other solution is worked out, neatly packap,ed and duly legislated, The only means we have of sharing the fruits of provincial and national productivity with those who cannot earn their way is through present social assistance legislation. The change in name, therefore, Mr.

Speaker, in this amendment is a recognition of two basic responsibilities of this Government. 1) The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador through my department is no longer the dispenser of charity to the needy public. It is the trustee in the distribution of a fair share of the proceeds of our gros provincial product and our gross national product to those men, women and children, to those fellow citizens who through mental or physical handic~p or economic change are unable to earn their share. Society, Mr.

Speaker, not only in recognition of human rights but out of sense of economic self-perservation is obliged to set up this program of social assistance. Rehabilitation, Sir, must also be an increasingly important vocal point for the-efforts of my department. Through self-health plans similar to the one we pioneered last spting and summer in my own constituency of Bell Island, through incentives of a wide range of appeal, the supervisory and field staff of my department must set about the morale-rehabilitati< of those depressed and demoralized by the dramatic shock of being on welfare. 2802

April 27th., 1970 Tape no. 639 Page 5 My department must rehabilitate its clients, Hr. Speaker, or rather help them rehabilitate themselves by counselling in the areas of consumer economics; by motivating them and directing them on methods of improving their standard of living; through better spending of their social assistance dollar; through home gardening; through making themselves what it would presently cost exorbitantly to buy; and through arranging training and skills and attitudes that may enable at least some to return to the workforce. Hr.

Speaker, in introducing this amendment, and asking for the unanimous approval for it in this hon. House, may I conclude by pointing out that the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, not only provides a better description of its emerging present and fu~ure concentrations of effort, but also a better frame work within which to carry out responsibilities which will inevitably be increased from year to year as we progress towards the end of the present century, and when it is predicted that advancing technology will have relieved three-quarters of our population of employment as we know it today.

Not only does the proposed amendment, Mr. Speaker, provide this better descriptive frame work but it will also be an important step in achievin~ a new image for a department whose present name has become equally distasteful both to its clients and to the general public, the results of whose productivity must provide the operating budget of this department. I move second reading of this Bill, Hr. Speaker. 2803

April 27, 1970, Tape 640, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my support to the Bill, and in doing so I would like to express the hope that this amendment does not become the purpose of just changing the name of the department. Recently we have heard the hon. minister on various points in connection with the dispersing of welfare.

He has come up with some rather interesting ideas, and we would like him to know that we welcome some of them on this side, and possibly we will not agree with all of~ them, but we certainly agree that there is a need for more emphasis to be placed on rehabilitation. In fact, I should point out that I personally advocated this kind of thing two years ago Mr. Speaker. I can go back further than that.

It was not something new that I had come up with, and I can also say Sir, that a great majority of the workers, _field staff for many years have emphasised the need for the department to pay more attention to the very important role of the field workers in terms of rehabilitation. Indeed Sir, it could be said that this amendment we are debating today is about eighteen years too late. I suppose it is never too late to do some good. It is unfortunate though Sir, that it has taken the department so long to recognize that you do not solve an emergency by just dispersing funds.

That you defeat the very purpose of the department of welfare as it used to be known when you just dole out money to people who really do not want handouts, who are really asking for help in finding employment and who while on welfare are asking for help in managing their affairs. It would be a tragedy indeed if by changing the name of the department the eery important work of rehabilitation goes by the board. I would hope that more emphasis will be placed by the department on the assisting of recipients to find employment.

Assisting recipients in terms of managing in their homes, and as the minister has recently announced, the assisting and the encouraging of the cultivating of gardens and the raising of their own crops and so on. Too many of our people Mr. Speaker, have for some reason or another fallen away from what they were used to and what their fathers were used to in terms of raising their own crops and doing a lot of things for themselves. It is not that they lack the desire to do it, 1 feel confident that there are very, very 2804

few of our people who lack that desire. They are a very minority group. I think it is a matter of falling in a rut as it were, and I think all of us and maybe some of our less fortunate citizens who have found themselves on the roles of the Department of Welfare have become a little too ~odern and probably have fallen in this rut where it is the popular thing to do, to buy vegetables rather than raise them. And so Sir, it is with pleasure that I add my support to this amendment.

I would hope as I said that the department goes further than they have already in assisting those people to become gainfully employed again. and while they are not gainfully employed to make their dollars go further than they have been. From the point of view of rehabilitation it must be remembered, that the whole purpose of our welfare legislation is to alleviate want and distress. The very basis of it. is to alleviate want and distress in an emergency situation. Surely Mr.

Speaker. as many of the field workers have indicated down through the years. in report after report . to this department, but apparently it fell on deaf ears, pointing out continuously this very important~fact, that while it is based on an emergency a family in need, and I am speaking in terms of the able bodied families, the unemployed. If a person finds his family and himself in a emergency situation once a month for six months or a year that is one thing, but he does not find himself in an emergency Hr.

Speaker, once a month for seven years or for ten years, and surely it must be realized by all of us that when that family or the bead of a household finds itself in this kind of a situation • then obviously there is something wrong w6th the program. What has been wrong with the program in the past is that we have used public funds as the stop-gap to poverty.

With this thought in mind Sir, I welcome this amendment and I hope that the minister continues to adopt some of our ideas that we have put forward on this side to improve the department and it is good to know that the suggestions br the field staff are not now falling on deaf ears where they have fallen for so long in the past. Now he smiles at me, but, I know that he is aware that I am not joking when I say that the very thing that he is doing a lot it at least. and I am not taking any credit away from him because I think he has done more in the department since he has been in it, than 2805

Apr~~ ~1, !~70, Tape 640, Page 3 -- apb has been done in this connection for a hell of a long time. I am certainly prepared to publicly give him credit for that. The fact remains Mr. Speaker, that the bulk of those suggestions were continuously made to the department and were not acted upon, and it is for this reason that I commend him for acting upon them.

It is not important that my suggestions be adopted, although a lot of those same ideas were put forward two years ago, and it is with regret Sir, that I say today that if we had adopted my resolution two years ago to enquire into welfare, not only would we have this amendment, but we would have many others. and I would not have laboured and brought forth .a mouse as a certain individual stated in this House. I do not think Mr. Speaker, he meant that because, I think that hon. gentleman knew well what I was talking about, and I think he knew well that there was a lot to what I was saying.

It just might have been a little embarrassing if we had gone into it. Sir, I have much pleasure in supporting this Bill. MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Mr. Speaker, I will not detain the House. but it may be the only opportunity I will get in this session to express publicly a word of my appreciation of the devoted and skillful and efficient service that the present minister is giving to . the department over which he presides at my invitation, really at the invitation of the Governor at my request.

I do not know that we have ever had a Minister of Welfare in Newfoundland who devoted himself so loyally and indefatigably as this minister has done to understanding. and then operating the work of the department. In addition to that he has_done something else, he has brought a fresh mind and fresh ideas to the job 1 and then in addition to that he has brought to the job what a man of his background would be expected to bring. That is the common touch 1 a common, quick, understanding and a natural and instinctive understanding of the poor and the unfortunate.

Now we are changing the name at his request, and at his suggestion from the Department of Welfare to that of Social Services and Rehabilitation which is I think •••••••••••••••• 2806

MR.SMALLWOOD: far more explanatory of the purposes of the department than the simple word Welfare. Welfare in any case had come to have a connotation of charity. about it and not charity in a sense of faith, Hope and Charity. But charity in the sense of handouts and helping people and generally a sort of benevolence of a benvolent government to the down and out. And therefore the word loJelfare has really ceased. to be the right word to explain what this department is for The department is for the worthy purpose indeed.

I ask myself sometimes would we hope, would we dare hope that the day would come when there would be no need of such a department. And you can answer yes, to that only if you think of adults in their good health and strength. What we used to call in the old days in Newfoundland the able­ bodied unemployed. Those on able-bodied relief, that is to say men in their good health and strength who were down and out who lacked jobs and could earn nothing because no one would give them the chance to earn, no one would give them employment.

And therefore, though able-bodied men in their good health and strength they became penniless, and had to have some help. low I can imagine a state of society, a form of aociety, in which there will oe no need of this department for able-bodied men because I can well imagine a state of society in which able-bodied men in their health and strength and able to work will not need any kind of social services.

I can imagine that kind of society, For example: If the Government of Csnada in the last ten years under three different Prime Ministers had been willing to listen to my proposals and to accept, then you would have a different situation altogether, no~-- today•--- I suggested under the administration of Mr. Diefenbaker, at a Federal Provincial Conference that the Government of Canada and all the governments of all the provinces wipe out able-bodied relief.

Do away with it and have it as though it never existed, do away with it completely; and have no able-bodied man or woman in Canada or any province of Canada be entttled to ~et any kind of relief.when unemployed. But that they should be entitled as of right to a job. Today they are entitled to welfare that we call Social Assistance 2807

that is to say if a man or woman able-bodied in good health and strength today cannot find a job from private enterprise then that person has the right under the law to come to the Government of this ~rovince or her Province and say I have no work, I have no employment, I am earning no money, I have no money will you help me1 In that case he or she is entitled to help in the form of Social Assistance. The Government of the Province pays this money to them and then at the end of the month sends a bill to Ottawa and Ottawa reimburses the Government of the Province one half of what the Province has paid out.

Now this is a right that exists to day, I said ten years ago and I say today let us wipe that right out, let us abolish it, the right that exists today for an able-bodied man or woman in godd health and strength to get Social Assistance. Let us abolish it, do away with it completely. And have instead the right to a job. the right to a job, the right to a job at going rates of pay, Whatever the going rates are, the going rates of .pay, the going conditions of work, the normal trade union rates in the different parts of the nation.

So that, if a man or woman gets to be unemployed, if private enterprise if private industries says, sorry, sorry, sorry no job for you. I do not want you,I do not need you.I am not going to have yo~ there is no job for you. I. I am not givi~~ : ,ou any job .I am not giving you any chance to earn a dollar.

If private enterprise says that to any Canadian citizen then that citizen instead of having what he has today, the right to go and get Social Assistance in the form of cheques, in the form of payments from the Government would have instead the right to go to the Government and say private enterprise does not want me will not give me a job, will not pay me any wages what are you going to do about it. And have the right to get a job from the Government.

And that job would be of right, that person, that citizen would get that job for no better reason, no better reason thatt the fact that he cannot get a job from private enterprise. He shoulu not need any better reason. That is sufficient reason. Now, it is true that he should be obliged to show the Government that he has tried faithfully and failed to get a job from private enterprise. This he should be required to show so that the Government does 2808

not have unnecessarily many men piled up into what you might call Government jobs. . ;. ·. Now these jobs that the Government would provide would have to be socially useful jobs. Jobs the performance of ~hith would result in making society a better place. And you can think of huddreds of things at which the Government could put men to work, hundreds of things. I would like for example, to see a corps of a thousand or two thousand young men recruited and put under a sort of semi-military organization. Even perhaps with some kind of unifDrm, and put to work from St.

John's to P.ort aux Basques the entire length of the Trans-Canada Highway; beautifying it, planting trees, grassing the banks, removing borders and stumps and generally making our Trans-Canada Highway a veritable lovers lane from' end to end. Now this would cost money, but the money is being spent now. It is being spent to subsidize men in idleness. This would cost more, it would cost more to pay men going rates of pay with trade union conditions of work . It would cost more to employ them in that wa' than it costs now to giv~ them Social Assistance. But look Mr. Speaker,look at the difference there would be.

Men would be working, they have all the satisfaction that comes from working, from doing honest work, from doing useful work. They would be useful members of society. They would not be receiving handouts. They would not be receiving charity. They would not be getting something for nothing. They would be working doing honest-to-God work, doing honest jobs, performing useful service to mankind and to society. And they could have a sense of self-respect, and their families could have a sense of self­ respect. But, Sir, this is impossible.

The Newfoundland Government, the Government of no province, dare give any unemployed man a job at going rates of pay because if they do when the month is over and they send the bill to the Canadian Government for half the cost, the Canadian Government would only laugh at that provincial government. They would say, no, no,no, no we do not give any money for work we only give it for idleness. We only give ~rk for men who are unemployed and idle and doing nothing. We will subsidize idleness but we will not subsidize work. Now I have been trying 2809

for ten years to get three different administrations of the Canadian Government to accept that viewpoint. The first time I brought it there a couple of premiers disagreed violently with me. The next conference that was held only one disagreed. The next conference that was held nobody dis~greed, the next conference a couple of premiers spoke up in favour of it. The next conference three or four permiers spoke up in favour of it. And gradually I am making some headway. But it began with an unfortunate misunderstanding.

The misunderstanding was some clown, some ignoramus, be some, or may/somebody, yes perhaps some stupid ignoramus described my proposal as making men work for their relief, which is the last thing in this world I would advocate. I never have done and I never shall. What I am advocating is, that we do away with relief altogether. Do away with it. what we used to call dole, then we called relief, now we call social assistance. Do away with that for the able-bodied people of Canada and in place of it introduce the right to a job. And Mr. Speaker, is that so revolutionary?

Is it really a revolutionary demand of any aan that he should have a job? Can a man ask for anything less? What is there that a man can ask for less than a chance of a job to work an honest work. That is not asking much of society. That is not asking ~or the right to become a rich man. That is not asking for the right to become a millionaire. That is not asking for the right to become a member of the Bouse of Assembly. That is not asking for the right to be one of the legislators of the land or one of the members of the Government. That is not asking for any great or extravagant privilege.

Asking just for the right of a job to earn a living is about as little as a man can demand. And giving that right in the place of the present right, the right to get relief, giving that right would be a great forward step in our modern canadian society. So when I ask myself the question in changing the name~ of this department from Department of Welfare to Department~of Social Services and Rehabilitation and I ask myself can the day come, can we help to bring the day when there will be no need of such a department.for able- bodied men and women, I have to answer 2810

6 ................ ... , "" ........ _ ,v c .... - l. MR. S~ALLlmOD: Sir, that I do not foresee that day, that the Department will be needed in any case, in any case the department will be needed for the old, the aged, the very young, the sick, the crippled, the incapacitated, the helpless, there will always be needed for help them. Then with regards to the abledbodied I would like to see the department concern itself tvith the problem of providing jobs, in-stead of welfare. Mr.

Speaker, if we keep pounding away at this, I believe, that we will eventually win out, and if we win out, it will be a glorious victory for common sense in Newfoundland. The greatest curse in Newfoundland is the lack of jobs. And the second greatest curse in Newfoundland is the fact, that those ablelbodied men who have not got jobs, who are forced to take relief has brought about a state of affairs in our Province today were you have men~had been on relief for many, many years, lie around, loaf around in their homes, and are raising a second generation of people on relief.

I wonder are there many cases like this, Mr. Speaker, of a third generation, of a man today with a family of children and those children being raised up on relief, that the father is receiving, and that father is the son . of a man, who himself was on relief. I wonder if there are cases of the third generation? There probably are some. Can you imagine a greater tragedy? c~, .you imagine a greater tocial tragedy than that, than that you should have a third generation of young children coming up today not trained or taur,ht to be ashamed of relief.

But to accept it, as a norm, as a normal thing, as a perfectly right and normal thing. This is a terrible indictment of our modern private enterprise system, our capitalist system of society. It is one of the great points at which it has colapsed, it has not yet found a solution to it. And do not let us for one moment, imagine that the solution is founded when there is welfare. Do not imagine that is only putting sauve on it, that is not answering it, that is not meetin~ it face to face. Do not think that with social security, for able/bodied men that society is meetinp, that problem head on, it is not.

It is dod~ing it, it is escaping it, and will continue -to dodge it until vociety is welling to face the matter squarely and fairly in the face, and have the courage and the wit to provide the solution. 2811

MR. SMALL\WOD: I heartedly endorse the Bill, which will change the name because Hr. Speaker, it is not quite so simple as merely a change in the name. It is a change in the orientation, it is a chanJ!:e in the way:·lve state the purpose of the Bill. It is a change in that, it is a chan~e for the better, it is an improvement. It is an indication of a new direction that my colleague, the Ninister of Social Services and Rehabilitation is trying to introduce into his department, with the cordially support of everyone of his colleagues in the Cabinet. HR. }!UPJ'HY : Mr.

Speaker, I, too, would like to lend my support to the change of name, we have got to be very careful with this, that we do not put a "U'" in front of the deviation of the initials, because we will have t;SSR, and we have got to be very careful of that. But, Pr. Speaker, we can say all l.re like about changing the name, it is a very nice name, but I do not think '1-Te can judRe a book by its cover. And I believe, this is a ste-p forward perhaps removing the word "welfare" which has become a stigna attached to it in certain areas. But, Mr.

Speaker, when I think, and particularly the Premier's words there, how many generations of Newfoundlanders have inherited welfare? I am wondering what Government has done with cronic welfare people, with all the jobs that have been created over the past few years, like Churchill Falls, so on and so forth? Is there an index, a roster, a list of these people kept, so when these things come up, we would have close co-operation with the Department of Hanpower, and our department here in St. John's? At least of give some of these people a chance to work, has this been accomplished I wonder?

Has it ever · been accomplished? Where a man can go on for tlvo, three, four or five years a regular visitor perhaps to Harvey Road or to aome other welfare office? Has anybody in their heart taken pity on that man, and said, in heaven's name. I had a man in my office the other day, after trampini! this to"m over and over and over, he is on unemployment insurance, getting S62 a fortnip.ht, his wife and two children. And that is all he could p,et. I have gone to the department, they told me the situation. This was all this man could get, $62 a fortniJ!:ht.

Thirty-ene dollars a week, for his wife, ,himself and t1.·o children. But this is what we allow, and it is all we can afford possi. uly 28:1:2

.. .. .. - ..J Wlder this tremendous Bill of \velfare to allow. What do we do about it? But that man to me~ as I understood from his story, I had no:reason to disbelieve it, he has worked hard all of his life, truly he has never had what you might call a permanent job, he just did not have the education, and I think we will find a great number of our welfare clients in the same position, that have not had steady jobs. But he is available for work, he wants to work. You will hear people say that, "oh! they do not want to work, they yould rather stay horne and watch television, than 'l•mrk.". Eut, }!r.

Speaker, I do not think that applies to a great, great, number of our Newfoundlanders, they want an opportWlity and that is why I ask, Mr. Speaker , this House today, thi!=l Government, is there a list kept of people who over the years who unfortWlatley perhaps did not have a bit of pull here and there, and I am referring here now to Government at this time.

But some one knows a friend, that gets you a job on a construction, because I think everybody is a\·lare Hhat is happening on construction jobs, the foreman knows soneone that worked l-7ith him before, so if there is a job starts up, I strike it in City Hall here in St. John's, where I started inquiring about employment for different people. But a man comes in, he has been working on the job perhaps he just finished the Grace Hospital or St. Clare's or something else, he has got his own bWlch of labourers, and these are the men who get the job all the time.

Hhat about that guy, that cronic welfare recipient, ,.;rho has been three or four or perhaps, I do not know how long, but just the world is down on him. And he just cannot fit in. Is it possible to compute a list of these people, and confer with Manpower, and say, ''look we believe, that this man is now entitled to a job." Now I am not saying, that if he is a electrican, that you shovel labour or something else into it, no, all things been equal. If employment is that scarce, let us stagger the benefits, the same as we do anything else. If that man earned, I do not know how much he earned, and I pleaed HR.

SMALLtmOD: Stagger what benefits'? 2813

-r- - - - • --e • - ~ .. - ........ - ... MR. MURPHY: Benefits of employment. MR. SMALLlVOOD: Then you would have to get employers willing to do that. MR. HURl'llY: Well, I am talkiJIS about projects, for example, Churchill Falls, I do not see any reason in the world '"hy this Government should not be in consultation with Churchill Falls, we are goinR to have 1500 men at Come-by-Chance very shortly, there is going to be another 1000 or something working out of it. Now what does this Government do in this case?

I have heard, and I have nothing against the people at Placentia or Argentia, I have nothing at all against them, the first big headline, I do not know if it is political, that the people laid.off at Argentia and Placentia should S?et the first chance of jobs at Come-by-Chance. Nm.r I have nothing at all against MR. SMALLWOOD: No, no, if the hon. gentleman will allow me, I know he wants to have the facts right.

It was the Government of Canada in announcing their decision to finance a wharf, $16 million to $18 million, who said when they made the announcement that this would help to relieve the unemployment situation at Argentia, and area, arising out of the phasing down of the American Base. This was a statement made by the Government of Canada in relation to the public ~harf, that ~hey are building or that they are paying for, and the phase down at Argentia. This was not a statement made with regard to the whole of Come-by-Chance. MR. HURPHY: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. 2814

MR. HURPHY: But, again ms I say, the Hinister must have a catalogue of names of people who have been trying valiantly to get some type of 'vork, and just have not been successful and I am sure of that, and I am talking about Rehabilitation at this time. I mean after two, three years a man has been out of work, I would hate to think what an ordinary man must feel like with fustration and perhaps a decay from inside, well, when you feel the world is against you, and there is no chance to get ahead, I feel that it must have a great effect to on your mental attitude towards life.

That is my feeling on Rehabilitation that we can get much deeper ·r.r. into find'11'Jobs, not extra jobs, but perhaps a sharing of jobs for people, when people are looking, for employers 'vhatever type are looking for '"'orkers to go with them. I do not know, just how much a man can earn perhaps I should, I do not know '·That his maximu'!ll earning is, if he ears $20 in a week does that cut him off from his welfare, I am not sure on this, I do not know if there is a sort of established income where, it is like the people I spoke of MR.

Sf-l'.ALUI'OOD: The answer is you cannot earn anything, MR. 1-!URPHY: Hill the hon. gentleman answer it, without closing the debate. MR. NEARY: All right, okay; MR. MURPHY: Inforr.!, you know I ,;ould just like the information. But I an thinking, Hr. Spekaer, and here again, is another avenue that only the day before yesterday He were in conversation about employment in this to,·-n. Now this concerns Homen, or ladies if you like, and there t·ras a bunch of mixed group of people there, and the great worry or the great discussion was on, so many people looking for people to do housework.

Now I am not talking about getting do~m on their knees and scrubbing like they had to do years ago or any of this stuff. But, so many people today trying to get a lady to come in for t~ro or three hours a day, perhaps it might come under the babysitting category too, and the feeling there was that these ladies that went out to work, who were on welfare unfortunately, and earned $5, $10, $15 or $20, they would not then be able to obtain their 'lo1elfare. Now these are some of the things, I feel if we are talking about 2815

Rehabilitation. I think we have got to establish some ltirtd of a minimum that people t'o.n live on properly, I do know that· the department' have:_ established their rules, but they are governed by, I notice this year, our vote is $44 million, now this is not all for abledbodied, there are many other areaS that entered into it. MR. SHALLWOOD: I am glad to hear the bon. gentleman acknowledging that statement, because you hear so often about :· .'.J such a tremendous portion of our people being on relief, well that is absolutely not true. MR. MURPHY: I know it is true Hr.

Speaker, a tremendous amount of our people are, but not $44 millions worth. HR. SHALLHOOD: No exactly, and not 80,000. MR. }lliRPh~: It never was, but there was a tremendous number of people in this Province on welfare, I know. lffi. NEARY: About seventy-seven heads of household as of the end of ~!arch. l1R. MURPHY: Seventy-seven head~ of households? HR. NEARY: About seventy-seven hundred heads of households as of the end of !-larch. lffi. MURPh~: That is approximately 40,000 people? MR. NEARY: No, no, 36,000 or 36,000 people. l·IR. rruRPHY: That is one-fifth, no, I am sorry not that.

Twelve percent, ten percent of the population. There are so many things to be done, and not out in the labouring field for the ordinary man who wants to do a bit of labouring work, or even today, we call about labourers. Take our trades men today, we talk about having a trade, a electrican, I know some young friends of mind, I am very familiar with them, electrican, working in New Brunswick today, they had just to get out of Newfoundland, the work is not there for them. \{e can talk about it all we like, the great stress has been on education, to educate them.

You have FOt an awful lot of young educated men today who cannot find employment. As a matter of fact it was only today, I was asked by a gentleman here, outside the House, his son is corning home from University after two years, some kind of a chemist trying to find jobs, he cannot get therr.. He can go to work. he said, 2816

HR. }fiJJU'HY: at Wool co, for the summer at a $1.10 an hour, you know which is the minimum.w~ge, but MR. ID~:F. What is he studing Biochemistry? MR. HURPHY: Not biochemistry, some kind of chemistry like you use in a plant like Long Harbour. MR. ROHE:F. Industrial chemistry. NR. t-nJRPh"'Y: Industrial chemistry. Well, he just cannot do it, I mean there are many people like them. He ~nly ·-wants a part-time job, well this is another matter, of course he is only two years university. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased Hith the change of name, but as I say changing the name will not move a magic '''and over our problems, and on Rehabilitation I feel that housing, environment has an aHful lot to do to '~ith rehabilit ating a person. There are people 'vho through no fault of their own, and perhaps through no fault of Government, are living in homes today that you know an ordinary person that likes his pet dog, or feeling his sheep lvould not put in. These are facts that we have to face, I do not knmv Hhat the situation is with Helfare, they pay rent. This morning I had a case to phone St.

John's Housing Authority, a family burned out in my district on Friday night, a man and his wife and two children, they are living lvith different people, just cannot find any place to put them, even temporarily. You know these are some of the problems we are up against, and with rehabilitation again, we have a long ways to go I think yet, and I might be unjustified in saying this, but I think we just, when the money was on the go, let her go and that Has it. The Premier says, that he brought up the matter of working for _wages to try to provide work.

Some ten years ago, I can go back to the very first speech I made in this House 1962, and I compare what President Roosevelt had to do back in the thirties, when he created the CCC up there. He took a bunch of younger people particularly and brought them into the country, so on and so forth planting trees. There are so many things in this Province of ours, so many things to be done if we,, look ·• it was only last year I had the first chance to cover a great part of the Island , and we see the ~!unicipalities trying to set up with the great need for 2817

MR. MUP~HY: money, and we just have not got the money to give them for for launching. lfhen you see a bunch of kids, just hanging around the road with not a field of any kind to play on, not a field of any kind, and here we have men I think that would be only too happy, to get out and work at these things.The Premier mentioned the Trans-Canada Highway, I think it is a wonderful thing, as you drive through the park, and then leave the park and go to another area, you are in a different world altogether.

You think of all our lovely ponds and everythinp, else that could be cleaned out, some of the old, everything else you know and this type of thing, and here we are spending millions of dollars on welfare. I cannot see quite honestly for the thinking of any government, and I presume it is, there is no presuming at all, there is the Federal Government that are standing in the way of this, no one wants a man to go out and work forty hours and when he comes in give him a chit on Ayre and Sons, or one of the supermarkets to go down and get something, no we want to pay him at the going rate. MR. SHAJ..LHOOD: Cash?

MR. ~ruRPHY: And what he is producing then, and the Premier uses his multiplier, and I think we could use it in this case, and put 2,000 or 3,000 men to work. They are going to create jobs for clerks, and everything else in the stores. So, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased indeed to endorse and support this Bill. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, before the hon. gentleman closes, would he let ~ffi. MURP~N: Go ahead, Mr. Speaker. MR.

S~IALUlOOD: I sent a man to Hashington, and gathered together all the data that they had up there on their CCC, Civilian Conservation Corp of Young Men, because I am ready, if ever I can get Ottawa to agree to pay half the wages, instead of half the relief. I have got plans, we can take several thousand young men and put them at magnificent work, that will do them good out in the d1olesome fresh air, and doing rood things for Newfoundiand. But Ottawa has to pay half the cost, she_is now payin~ half the cost of the relief. MR. NURPIIY: 1~ank you, ~r. Spekaer, I was plannin~ to, as a matter of fact 2818

- . - MR. tnJRPHY: I have some of the data, but if the Premier gets it all, I would like to get it, MR. SHALLlo!OOD: I have it all, years ago. ~fR. MURPHY: So long as it is passed over to us, after the next election so as we can carry it out, ~m. Sl':ALLhlOOD: The hon. gentleman, HR. MURPHY: But, MR. SHALLHOOD: All right. He is making such a nice speech I will not spoil it. MR. }1URPllY: Yes, no '"e will not bring politics into this, no.

But I will just urge again, the t!inister perhaps to set up, if he could, this thought of a rooster of people who have been for a lonp, time on welfare- and try to fit them into jobs, work with the Department of rtanpower do~~ here, and I do not see nay reason why we cannot, so Mr. Speaker, I have very much pleasure in supporting the principal of this Bill. MR. CALLAHAN: Hr.

Speaker, I think, I expect when my colleague arises to close the debate, will probably inform the House that Lone of the requirements of an applicant for short-term relief before he receives assistance is that he be registered ldth Canada 11anpower, registered for employment, I think that is so. Well that is one aspect of what the Leader of the Opposition was talking about, Mr. Speaker, but it is a fact that when a man comes looking for short-term assistance, he must before he can receive it, must have registered with Canada Manpower for employment.

Realistically I think the second thing the man must have done if he is to get the employment for which he is registered, and the reason he does not get it, I think in most cases and has to come looking for assistance, very simply is the fact , that if he has not attained a level of education or training, that will enable him to compete successfully in the job market, he will not in fact get employment and this principally, I think, I know is why he winds up seeking assistance in lieu of employment. 2819

april 27th. 1970 · Tape 643 PK - 6 MR. CALLAl~: Now, Hr. Speaker, I have mentioned these figures in this House, I think this is the third year, and I do not know whether I have made the point very clear. But I think, until we realize in this Province fully, I mean everyone, that there is a correlation, a very definite correlation between the successful presuit of a job, and one's educational standing, we are not really geting at the base of the problem and we are not really go to lick it. And I think the story has got to be told, and told, and told again, so it gets through, not only to members of this House, Mr.

Speaker, but to ~ung people particularly in school, and the parents of young people in school. Because I know, all to many parents who have the problem of a son, for example, who is nineteen or twenty, or twenty-one years of age who is sitting around his parents house with nothing to do because he cannot get a job by virtue of his educational level 2820

and who very often goes off and gets married as well and then starts his own family and his condition does not very much improve. So there are two sides to the problem Mr. Speaker, it is not just a matter of the man registering for employment it is whether he will be successful and be able to avoid having to go to the welfare office for help. MR.MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. minister permit a question. MR.CALLAHAN Yes, Mr. Speaker, MR.MURPHY: Of all our unemployed now, if everyone of them had grade ~1, instead of Grade V1, V, 1V. would they find jobs to day? ~.CALLAHAB: These are the figures Mr.

Speaker, I refer to and I repeat them to the House again. MR.MURPHY: Say we have 100 per cent grade 11 here in Newfoundland.today. MR.CALLAHAN: The figures and I do not know what the latest report of the Department of Welfare will show Mr. Speaker, but perhaps . my colleague can enlighten the House on this too when he closes the debate. But last year's report and the report for the year before broke down the heads of families receiving short•term assistance as to educational qualification. I I assume they did it every other yaar prior to that.

But being a member of the House three years ago and two years ago and last year I had occasion a very special reason obviously to be concerned about it. The figures Mr. Speaker are these, and I think they probably are valid this year as valid as last. It is very simple, one can look at the figures and see that of all the heads of families who receive shore··~erm assistance last year. Fifty per cent claimed to have and I say that advisedly (claimed to have) between grade 1 and grade 1V education.

Five out of every ten men who went looking for short-term relief, heads of families, said that they had perhaps grade lV they might have had grade 11, or they might have had grade 1 or they might have never been in school at all. MR.MURPHY: If all these had grade X1 they would all be working. MR.CALLAHAN~ Well let me complete the statistics Mr. Speaker. MR.MURPHY: I am saying according to the statistics. 2821

HR.CALLAHAN: The second group who were forty per cent of the total, the second group who made up forty per cent of the total number of heads of families receiving short-term assistance claim to have between grade V and grade 111V education and again I say claim to have because I think when a man goes into a welfare office if he has even seen the door of a grade 111V classroom as he walked by twenty years ago he might well claim to have grade 111V rather than say grade V or grade 11 or grade 1. So that Mr.

Speaker, fifty per cent with grade 1 to grade 1V; forty per cent grade V to grade 111V which leaves one out of ten who claim to have any high school whatsoever, who claim ever to have walked inside a grade 1X classroom or grade X or grade X1, and these figures are usually broken down as well. With the result that to take the most startling statistics the one that really sticks tn one's mind Mr. Speaker, with the result that nine out of ten men heads of families, receiving short­ term assistance claim, volunteered the information that they had never been in a high school.

Which means that nine out of ten tecipients of shott-term assistance have less than high school and can be anywhere from grade 111V down to grade 1 or none at all, no schooling at all. Only one out of every ten, or ten per cent had any high school and that could be as I have said a day in grade 1X or it could be a failure in grade 1~ or it could have been grade X or it could have been grade Xl. And the last figures I recall showed I think forty-eight who said they had grade XI, or whether they completed or not is another question, they might have dropped out the first day and I remember, I am not sure Mr.

Speaker, of last year or the year before and I am subject to correction but I think the figure was the statistics showed that there had been one who had grade Xll. Now it might have been that it , you know something happened, in that situation that even with the grade X11 he had a problem. Obviously he did, · But I think it is a pretty revealing statistic and I think that the obvious answer had to be education and training. MR.MURPHY-: Here again now the hon.minister says now if all these people had grade X1. 2822

MR.CALLAHAN:-.- I think if all these people had grade Xl, I am not sure what would happen if they all had grade Xl I am not prepared to speculate on that Mr. Speaker but let me say this that if any of them had high school they would have an eighty per cent better chance. The point is that any man who hasshigh school education in this province today has a ninety per cent of a chance of a job compared with the man who has not high school who has a ten per cent chance. Now I know that is simplifying the figures, but that is what it means. Now, the answer Mr.

Speaker, very obviously is to make available to people to ensure that they do not fall into that category that ninety per cent the answer is to make sure that facilities are available aside from the normal day school where you are going to have dropoutsproblems and no one claims the system is perfect, no one claims that the lack of counselling throughout the system is a good thing but we are making some progress there. Quite aside from that Mr.

Speaker, we have obviously thousands of men in this Province today who are well beyond high school well beyond school leaving age who have very little steady job opportunity because of this problem. Now, there are other factors, tehe rise in short-term assistance obviously occurs during the month when the construction season slacks ofT, when the fishing season in many areas closes down and this is when the figures go up.

And a large number of those people working in primary industries where there never has been the need for a high level of education particularly high at least, and where even ~ if they had it probably would still ~k•~ be that seasonal bulge. But there are a great many also Mr. S Speaker, who could have a job during that period of the year if they had the necessary minimum educational or training qualifications. The attack on this problem began four years ago. I have said before in this House and I say again Mr.

Speaker, it has been, l do not think .-: ignored in·terms of deliberately ignored, but I think so far as the media are concerned and I mean all the mddia, there is a fantastic success story Mr. Speaker, building up and has been building up for the past three or four 2823

years in terJDS of what these very people we are talking about arecdoing about their problem. I think the night school concept of Adult Education goes back to about I think 1935. I think Dr. Vine' Burke and Dr. O'Neil and others were the instigators of it. And we continued on with night school classes which were not the easiest things in the world for a working man to manage.

But _four years ago there was signed an agreement between the Government of Canada and the GovertUDent of Newfoundland under the O.T.A tbe Occ11Jational Training for Adults Act of the Government of Canada which is administered. by the department of Hanpower and Immigration. And there was created the first adult centre, it was created at Stephenville with I might recollection tells me Mr. Speaker about 300 pe~ons in the first year • And these people started off to school five days a week 2824

April 27, 1970 Tape #64.5 Page 1 to HR. CALLAHAN: but these people started out school five days a week, ten months of the year, being paid an allowance, particularly if they were married men away from home with families to keep. This is what made the thing work, otherwise men could not leave home to go to school in Stephenville or anywhere else. If men from all over this Province were enabled because of the allowances which ranged up to I think eighty- six dollars a week, the original maximum.

Because of that men were able to leave home and to go into that special school environment where grades mean much less than levels of achievement, and some of them in a couple of years go from perhaps a rated grade three or grade four up to a grade eight or nine or ten equivalent level, thereby become enabled and eligible to get into a Trade school, learn a trade, or indeed to find a job. Now Mr. Speaker, this has been going on and the numbers have been growing, and at Stephenville at this moment, there somewhere between 1,000 and 1,100 people.

And some of these "sut:cess stories" I like to call them that have come out of that school are just fantastic. Beyond belief. I think of one and I know that this is possibly unique. But I think of one maa who has worked all his life in the woods, in the lumber industry, the pulpwood industry as a cook~ and married rather late, and at age fifty-seven, with children still in school, realizing that he was getting a little old for work in the woods -- that he had to find something else, but only had perhaps a Grade Four, applied for and was admitted to the Stephenville Center. And that man Mr.

Speaker, in his late fifties undertook two years back to school, which · I think is quite an achievement for a man who had been away from school for about a half century. And in the two years got himself to a point where he could go back to Vocational Sehool, do a year's basic electronics and set himself up in his own little business, repairing appliances in his particular community. And he has a ~ood budiness. He is supporting his family and his children are getting through because of this. Now Mr.

Speaker, his option was that if he could not work in the woods anymore, his option was to go home and lie around and receive welfare. I do not know what other choice he would have had. Instead of that he went to school, he got an allowance while he was going. He 2825

April 27, 1970 Tape D645 Page 2 achieved his grades. He got his vocation course and at the age fifty-eight or nine, I forget which, went back in his own community and set himself up in business. Now I agree perhaps that is a unique and an unusual case, but it indicates I think the kinds of things that are happening through this occupational training progress. The drop-out rate in the Stephenville center, I do not know about the others, has been fantastically low. I think out a thousand people last year there were only two or three dozen people who did not actually finish the year. But the importance of it Mr.

Speaker, I think, is seen from the story I have related, namely that there is a choice for people. They do not have to stay on providing they can get into a school. They do not have to stay on assistance or look forward to•a long existence on short-term assistance for several months of the year. The remedy is now there for them. And last Fall to inA 4 cate the attitude of my colleague the minister, because I think that he could not very well say this himself. He and I travelled around the Province for two or three days, and called into numbers of district welfare offices, and talked with people.

And in every office as we would arrive and sit down and talk with the welfare officer. The first questions were, how many people do you have on short-term assistance1 Are you referring them to Canada Manpower1 Are you telling them that they can have an opportunity to go back to school and solve their basic problem, which is their educational problems. And fDr ·'my·money Mr. Speaker, this is an indication of the philosophy and the humanistic approach of my colleague the minister has taken towards this whole problem, and indeed towards the whole question of Social Services and Rehabilitation.

And his requests to the House in the form of this legislation to change the name of his department to the new name, new designation of Social Services and Rehabilitation. I can assure the House it is a very very good reflection of his attitude towards his responsibility in that department. Mr. Speaker, I have very great pleasure in supporting the Bill now before the House. MR. CROSBIE: I have certainly no objection in changing the name of this department, as the word rehabilitation is of course one that we often apply to the hon. minister in the House here. But changing the name of the department 2826

April 27, 1970 Tape #645 Page 3 I hope that when the name of the department is changed, the name of the game is going to be changed also as the minister indicates. I do not know Mr.

Speaker, whether the Department of Social Services I think, is an appropriate name, but whether or not Rehabilitation is the appropriate name, because rehabilitation is associated in many people's minds with other forms of activity such as the Rehabilitation Center which is the rehabilitation trained people who have physical disability, and it is associated in many people's minds with that kind of activity, which is not an activity of the present Department of Welfare.

I realize that the School for the Deaf that blind children do come under the department, but I think that there is a danger of mixing up the main function of the department, which is not that kind of activity with physical rehabilitation. I do not know whether it might have been better to have it a department of Social Services and Job Placement, or Job Retraining. Because Mr. Speaker, I think that one of the weaknesses in the present government is that we are leaving to the Government of Canada the field of Manpower, or employment. Everything is referred to the Department of Man~ower. For example Mr.

Speaker, there was a question asked today and answered today on asking; what numbers of people were working in this Province as of April 1, 1970 who are being paid wages based on a minimum wage level as established by provincial legislation. The answer to the question was that the Department of Labour has no statistical research division, consequently cannot provide the information. Nor does the department know of any agent which might have it. Now Mr. Speaker, if that kind of information - surely any provincial government should have.

How many people have we got employed in the Province now being paid on the minimum wage level? And a further part of that question asked by the member for Bonavista North was, what if any steps were being taken by the government to assist students within the Province to find summer emoloyment during 1970? And the answer was , that this function falls within the scooe of the Department of Manpower and Immigration of the Government of Canada, which has a program to assist students to find summer employment. 2827

April 27, 1970 Tape 11645 Page 4 I do not whether in this Province Hr. Speaker, that is enough because our problem of unemployment in this Province is so much greater than it is in most others. I noticed last year the Government of Ontario had a program of special assistance to help University students find summer employment.

And I think that it would be well worth this Province having some special program of that nature, and giving some additional assistance, not leaving it to the Government of Canada alone, but providing some special assistance here in Newfoundland with respect to job placement in finding jobs for summer students and people who are not even students. Hr. Speaker, there was an interesting

article I thought in the Toronto "Globe and Mail" of February 27, 1970, the minister may have seen - where it is reported the Department of National Health and Welfare was giving evidence to the Senate Committee on poverty. They were given certain statistics. The statistics, the

article says, based on the maximum public assistance for a family of four, show that annual income for such families on welfare in Quebec, Ontario, Hanitoba, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, top the income level, where the family depended solely on wages of a breadwinner at the provincial minimum rate. In other words, in these five provinces, the annual income for a family of four, if they were on welfare, was greater than the income level where a family of four were depending on a breadwinner who was being paid the minimum wage.

On the other hand in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, the annual income at the minimum wage rate was higher than the provincial assistance total if they had been receiving welfare. The

article says "minimum rates were calculated on the basis of a full forty-hour week, fifty-two weeks. Welfare aid was pegged to basic rates, and the department noted that all provinces provided extra and special circumstances. So apparently Mr. Speaker, 2828

MR. CROSBIE: Unless the minister has other statistics which indicated differently. They do not specify whether they are short-term or long-term rates. If that is the case one might tend to think that this would tend to encourage people to stay on the welfare assistance if the only employment they could obtain was going to be at the minimum wage level, and that would be particularly true for unskilled people of course, people who can only do labour work. Now the answer of course Mr. Speaker, would not be reducing the welfare assistance, it would be increasing the minimum wage level which I think the Government should do, and should certainly fully consider doing. The

article pointed out that the total Provincial assistance for a family of four on welfare roles ranges from $2,100 a year in Nova Scotia to $2,950. in Manitoba. Ontario is second to Manitoba with an annual amount of $2,940. So Newfoundland is somewhere in between the $2,100. and the $2,940. Then the

article pointed out the minimum wages rates range from $1.10 in Newfoundland to $1.35 in Quebec and $1.40 in Alberta. In Ontario it is $1.30 for adults in · general industry and $1.55 in construction work and so on. However, I would like to go on and point this out, that Dr.

Willar the Deputy Minister of National Health and Welfare said that in his opinion that is,this is the question of whether the fact that the welfare assistance was a bit higher than the minimum wage that you would earn if you were on the minimum wage scale, he thought that was a relatively minor problem in the total picture and he went on to give some figures. He said a survey in Calgary showed that only five per cent of those on assistance roles were in an employable category. An Alberta survey showed the number as 6.5 per cent. Dr.

Willar (this is an interesting point) noted that this ·incentive to work is inherent in any system which reduces welfare payments by the full amount of any part-time earnings. Now I think the minister said that in Newfoundland you are not allowed if you are receiving welfare assistance to,short-term assistance to receive any. to make any part-time earnings, and Mr. Speaker. perhaps he is 2829

going to comment on this when he closes debate today. But certainly that does not sound like a very wise provision. and I would like the minister to say why that is the regulation in Newfoundland. It seems to me that certainly no one on welfare assistance is living hiRh off the hog, you know, they are just living at some minimum level of existance. Income enough to get food so that they are not going to starve, and they will have some clothing and so on. Now, I cannot see any reason why they cannot have some part-time earnings. and Dr.

Willar suggested the remedy, he said it was to make some income exempt from such reductions, and to apply &:progressive rate of reduction for the balance to encourage part-time employment among welfare recipients. Perhaps the minister is contemplating changing this, certainly I do not think that we should discourage people receiving either short-term or long-term welfare assistance from part-time earnings. I think that we should allow them to make part-time earnings certainly up to some particular level as Dr. Willar suggests.

The Leader of the Opposition was discussing the position with reference to people who work as charwomen and maids and so on, and many of them are discouraged from doing any work by this very rule, and as a matter of fact I heard of a case of a charwoman the other day who told her employer that she was going to have to cease working for I think it was two or three hours a week because she was afraid she was going to lose her social assistance. I would like the minister to tell us Mr.

Speaker. whether he is contemplating any change in that provision or is he is not. or if the bon, member is not, why not and what is the reason for having that provision? I agree with some of the other speakers Mr. Speaker. that the hon. minister certainly appears to be making some desirable changes in the department. We notice from the Budget Speech. and what brings this to mind Mr. Speaker, is that I had a call today from a lady who is on social assistance and she said she gathered from the Budget that there was going to be no increase in the social assistance rates which I gather is the case.

The change of the name of the department is not going to have any effect on 283 l

April 27, 1970, Tape 646, Page 3 -- apb social assistance rates at least this year. I wonder when the minister replies could he say a word about blind allowances. What the situation is there, because, I was also contacted by a woman who is receiving a blind allowance which I think she said is only seventy-five dollars a month, which does not seem to be much to carry a totally blind person. I know that this is some arrangement with the Government of Canada, but if the minister could touch on that one when he replies, on~ what the situation with respect to allowances to the blind it would be a help.

The minister is working of self-help plans he says, but 1 wonder Mr. Speaker, whether he should not have in his department some personnel whose job is to supplement the work of the Canada Manpower Office with respect to people w~o are on short-term assistance, or who are wmployable but are receiving welfare assistance. Because, although there is a Canada Manpower Office Mr. Speaker, it just does not seem to be · satisfactory if the number of people who contact members are any indication. If they are right in what they say, it just does not seem to performing its function.

Now most of these people unfortunately are unskilled labourers, this is where most of the trouble seems to be. 1 had a call from another man today who is an unskilled labourer who has been two years looking for work, and he complains that everybody~he knows in his area down in St. Mary's Bay is going up to Churchill Falls doing labour work 1 but that he had his name down, and he has been in to town seven or eightltimes but he c~not get employment.

Now obviously there is no deliberate discrimination against him but, there appears to be that the problem of the minister's department, which I am sure is primarily with untrained people. that these are the people who are on short-term assistance, are the ones who are certianly less able to get jobs at Canada Manpower, and it would be of some help if the minister had several people whose job was to find employment for these even though Canada Manpower is supposed to have that responsibilitv. 2831

There is another point I think should be considered when we are considering a general topic of this department. The minister in reply to a question today, and the number of the question was 484, told us that the Government had purchased for those people who are receiving welfare assistance, in the period from April 1st. 1965 to March 31st. 1968, during three years 153 homes for needy persons. Now there is nothing wrong with that because, these are people who if these homes were not bought for them would be out without a roof over there heads at all.

But only forty-three of them had title to the home vested in the minister's name, and 110 had title in the home vested in the welfare recipient, and these homes ranged in price from $300. to $4,500. Now Mr. Speaker, it seems peculiar, I know there must be some reason for this, but it seems very peculiar that a Government would pay out, and the total paid in that period for homes registered in the names of the welfare recipient was $139,211.

Now it seems to me that there is something peculiar about this, about a Government assisted by the Government of Canada purchasing homes for needy people and with the taxpayers money, but putting title to the property in the name of the welfare recipient. I can see letting them live in these places rent free, but it definitely appears to be peculair for the Government say to pay $3,000. for a property for somebody to live in who is on long-term assistance, and then giving them title to the property. What is to stop them from selling it? For example ••••••••••••• 2832

MR.CROSBIE: f6r, eX8mple, Now I believe the minister said, the other day or several weeks ago that this policy was being chang~d. So that from now on I think title is, remain always with the government or an agency in the government. But if he could explain why this has happened and are there any restrictions or can the welfare person who has been assisted on welfare can he sell that property after the title is vested in his name or what conditions apply would certainly be interesting, because it does seem a bit peculiar.

The minister mentioned that his department is engaged now in a programme of advising welfare recipients on how best to spend their money which also reminds us that consumer protection is a matter that needs a lot more effort in this province. Therefore it is disappointing to find Mr.

Speaker that the Government has not established yet the division of consumers affairs. (I have not had the chance to really go over the estimates to see if there is any money voted for this year) But whether on or off welfare it is certainly essential now for there to be more protection given to the consumers of Newfoundland and for there to be an aetive division of consumer affairs with adequate personnel and active programmes to help the consumer to check misleading advertising and the rest of it.

The Bon. the Premier Mr.Speaker, has mentioned is urging the Government of Canada over the years to allow the Government here to employ, to use the money that is spent on, to pay to employable people on welfare to have them working to share the cost of it which they refuse to do. And he suggested the Government of Canada only subsidizes idleness. I am delighted to find Mr. Speaker, that I am not the only one who is being critical of the Government of Canada in the past several days but even the bon. the Premier is occa~ionally critical of the Government of Canada.

And I notice that some clown or some stupid ignoramus . up in the Government of Canada has not accepted this proposal of the Premier's and suggested that this is really making people work for their relief, and I am also delighted to notice that there are stupid ignoramuses and clowns in Ottawa as well as on this side of the House Mr. Speaker. But I wonder if the Government of Canada have 2833

not accepted this proposal which sounds on the surface to be so sensible. If they have not there must be some valid reason for it. I do not know what the reasons may be but I can see certain problems, suppose you do have a programme where the employable person who is on, who is receiving welfare assistance because he has not got a job. If he is to be put to work and the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland has to pay his wages at what rates is he to go to work at? On welfare he is getting a certain amount, facet on a family of four. But now the Government says.

Does the Government say you must go to work now to receive this assistance, you must go along the Trans-Canada Highway and help beautify it or whatever it is. for the same money, or would these two governments say we now give you an opportunity to go to work if you wish, at a greater income than you would make if you just stay on welfare assistance and leave~it up to the welfare recipient. The hon. minister says they will have a choice. If they are going to have a choice then they will certainly have to receive higher income working than they would be getting welfare assistance. MR.SMALLWOOD: Trade union rates.

MR.CROSBIE: Trade union rates, the bon. the Premier mentioned trade union rates. But of course one can see that perhaps an objection of the Governmen of Canada that it would cost some considerably more money than the present scheme, that might be one reason why they have not accepted it. But a feature of this proposal is up to the person concerned so if it is up to the person concerned obviously there is going to have to be a carrot,. because the person receiving public assistance in Newfoundland today apparently can make.a higher income than the minimum wage rates would give him.

So this would have to be employment at a greater rate than the minimum wage rates now in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. And whether there are other objections to this scheme, to this suggested scheme I do not lnow. I do not know whether it would be workable. Certainly it would be worth trying on an experimental basis somewhere, to see just how effective it was,. and what work was accomplished. It would be interesting to have, l think the minister said 7700 heads of 2834

households roughly on welfare assistance . And no doubt while I have seen the figures before and how many o~ them have got grade 1 and grade 2 and grade 111, and so on. But the problem in Newfoundland Mr. Speaker, is certainly with the uneducated and the untrained and unfortunately those people that we are dealing with are not basically capable of retraining. I think the hon. minister may a~ree or disagree with that. But if you are a man of forty-five or fifty and only had grade ~11, what good do all these retraining programmes do you, obviously they do not do you a~y good.

But you have not had sufficient education to be eligible for those retraining programme. So it is a problem that only education of his children in training of the younger people is going to cure in the long run • . The minister might comment on that one when he closes the debate. So Mr.

Speaker, I agree with the change of the name, I agree with what the minister is ~rying to do and hope that he will, he is changing the name of the game or the game itself as well as the name, and I would be interested in hearing his comments on some of these points, as to whether he thinks that perhaps the Government of Newfoundland should not put more effort itself into helping these people and other find employment I do not think that the Canada Manpower office is enough here in Newfoundland. MR.BURGESS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few brief words in support of this Bill, to change the name of the department and I would also in accordance with what the hon. member for St. John's West said a few moments ago. I would like to sincerely congratulate the minister on doing a reasonably good job for the department despite the fact they were at each others throats once in a while, at least things are happening in that department since he has taken over, particularly in the field of Child Adoption. I think he is to be complemented on that.

Now emphasis by all the previous speakers has been laid on the fact that while there would be nobody essentially to be rehabilitated or on welfare if there were sufficient jobs to go around. I am in complete accordance with the hon. the Premier when he said that all the emphasis should be made it is the biggest burden that this Province has to bear in the chance that there are not enough jobs 2835

to .so around. Now the only way t;hat jobs can beptavided would be by the attraction of industry. Now the attraction of industry in order to employ ouT peQple is fine ifi it is going to go out :in a practical fashion and not in the same ,manner as we have seen the amount of jobs that will accrue by the Collie by Chance operation for the amount of money that we have t-o invest. How if you cannot attrac .t enough industry to employ these people well t.hen obviously you have got to employ a great per ceiltage of them yourseif and this il!l essentially what is happening when we think in terms of all of the people of this Province who are employed by Government. The people 2836

Apr1~ ~lth, ~~7U Tape o .. o ..... ,., .- ..... MR. BURGESS: and the people, the civil servants of this Province and also the fire fighters, policemen and hospital workers. Now the carrot as referred to by the hon. member from St. John's West would be that in order to attract them into the employ of the Government you have to give them an incentive in that they would be receiving essentially more than they would receive on welfare. Well, unfortunately when we think of the fact that you have policemen, you have fire fighters and I think I mentioned in this hon.

House on a previous occasion where you have fire fighters working 49~ hours a week and being on call, on stand - by for another 49~ we can say that is pretty close to 100 hours a week I would say that if you divide the amount of hours into the amount of money they are making they do not even compare with the minimum wages, the minimum wage laws that we are talking about.

I think that there has been a completely unrealistic attitude adopted by this Government particularily in the last Budget towards the people who are employed by the Government because the people who have brought about this new job classification and taken into consideration the earnings of these people, fire fighters and policemen, I feel that it has been completely unrealistic in that they have started from a gate, a wire, that was way below the minimum standard anyway.

The proportionate increases that have been awarded to the various job classifications maybe on a proportionate scale, they may be right,but I think the thing that has to be considered is that these people are way below the minimum anyway in relation to the services that they are provided or have provided, the very essential services that they have provided.

With that in mind I have heard constant references to the fact of the idea of the Government to bring about a minimum wage standard, a minimum wage law, and I would say that they have reached that goal already because this is essentially what they are providing, a minimum wage. The hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources was very profound in what he said in that the people who have the greatest opportunity of finding employment in this Province are the people who are well educated but in the fire­ fighters and policemen some of these people have grade eleven and higher yet they ·2837

MR. BURGESS: are not receiving remuneration. I have no doubt, I am attending a meeting of these people tonight and tomorrow morning and I am sure that I may see some of them on welfare tomorrow because they just do not see any advantage in staying in with the wage structure that they presently have. When we talk about the change of the name there is a certain social stigma attached to applying for welfare and I am in complete accord with the changing of the name, it is a sophisticated name even though it means the .same thing but this change has been brought about in other Provinces anyway and I heartily endorse the change of