April

4, 2001 GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 4:15 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Joyce): I would like to call to order

the Government Services and Lands Estimates Committee. The first order of

business is the minutes from the meeting of April 2, 2001. Can I have a motion

to adopt the minutes?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Present, we have: Wallace Young; Tom

Osborne; Randy Collins; Yvonne Jones; Bob Mercer; George Sweeney; and Eddie

Joyce.

Minister, can you introduce your staff? We ask, if the

staff answer a question, that they identify themselves for the record please.

MR. NOEL: Mr. Chairman and members of the

Committee, it is a great pleasure to have this opportunity to appear before you

as the Minister of Government Services and Lands. I want to thank you for

accommodating my request that we change the hearing time to this afternoon. I

really appreciate you going out of your way to do so. I would ask the deputy and

the others if they would mind introducing themselves, please.

MS WAKEHAM: My name is Barbara Wakeham, Deputy

Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. MORRIS: My name is Winston Morris, Assistant

Deputy Minister of Consumer and Commercial Affairs.

MR. PARROTT: My name is Bill Parrott, Assistant

Deputy Minister of Land.

MR. MacKENZIE: My name is Bill MacKenzie, ADM of

Government Services.

MR. MOULAND: My name is Garland Mouland, Director

of Finance.

MR. NOEL: Thanks very much.

I do not know how much of a hurry everybody is in. I

have some prepared remarks here that might take seven or eight minutes. If you

have time to go through them, I would be happy to proceed.

Government Services and Lands consists of three

branches: Lands; Consumer and Commercial Affairs; and Government Services -

approximately 500 employees who work on administering something over eighty-five

pieces of legislation.

The Government Services Branch provides accessible and

efficient services to the public and business community in the areas of: public

health and safety; highway safety; driver and vehicle registration; building

standards enforcement. The branch includes five Government Services Centers,

Vital Statistics, and Motor Registration.

The Lands Branch manages the Province's Crown land,

and that encompasses 95 per cent of the total area of the Province; processes

applications to acquire or use Crown lands; archives Crown title documents and

distributes maps and other land related information. The branch includes: Crown

Lands; Land Management; and Surveys and Mapping.

Our Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch is

responsible for ensuring that consumers and the public are protected while

facilitating commerce in the Province. The branch includes: Commercial

Registrations; Insurance and Pensions; Residential Tenancies; Securities

Commission; Trade Practices and Licensing; and the Credit Union Deposit

Guarantee Corporation.

Consumer and Commercial Affairs, as you may have

noticed, is the new name for the branch that used to be known as Commercial and

Corporate Affairs. We have done that to more appropriately reflect the branch's

responsibilities in protecting consumer interests. Significant strides have been

made in consumer protection since Government Services and Lands was created in

and broadening services. I intend to build on this progress to ensure the

citizens of our Province have first-class services available.

One specific initiative we are taking is the

establishment of a consumer advisory committee of citizens which would meet

periodically with the minister to assess programs and services and provide

advice on how they may be improved. It is often easy to get input from industry,

but more difficult to get a clear response from consumers.

The Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch has also

received approval to hire two investigators for our insurance and securities

division, so that we may be more effective in dealing with consumer complaints.

The cost of these positions will be paid for by those industries, in keeping

with the policy that industries must pay for their own regulation.

Government proclaimed prepaid funeral legislation in

the fall of 2000. Just before proclamation, Ford's Funeral Home in Port aux

Basques went out of business and prepaid funerals not accounted for totaled

$500,000. Our Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch, in cooperation with the

funeral industry, is now in the process of establishing an assurance fund to

ensure the consumers who purchase prepaid funerals from Ford's will have their

contracts honoured at no additional cost. We hope to have that legislation

introduced very soon.

We are now in the process of reviewing the

recommendations of the Select Committee on Property and Casualty Insurance with

a view to establishing a revised automobile insurance regime for this Province.

I trust we will able to come up with a plan that provides consumers with

insurance at reasonable rates and that gives fair coverage to persons affected

by accidents. Any new legislation will have, as its cornerstone, greatly

enhanced consumer protection provisions.

This year, the Government Services Branch will hire

five more Environmental Health Officer III's to test water quality in public

water supplies. These officers are all certified public health inspectors who

take samples from the tap end of the supply and test it for bacteriological

contaminants in the labs in each of our five regional Government Service

Centres. This increase in funding is part of government's larger effort to

ensure continued safe drinking water throughout the Province, in concert with

Health and Community Services, Environment, and Municipal and Provincial

Affairs, each of which has received an increase in this year's budget to address

the water quality issues.

Our Government Services Branch acts on behalf of the

Department of Environment with respect to spill response situations. We have

eleven environmental health officers deployed throughout the Province to respond

to these situations. These staff monitor, on a rotating shift basis, the

Canadian Coast Guard environmental emergency line, twenty-four hours a day,

seven days a week. The Coast Guard informs the officer on duty who then

dispatches staff from the appropriate office. These officers then advise other

agencies and the responsible party as to cleanup requirements. It is important

to note, given recent media coverage, that the polluter pays for cleanup, not

the taxpayer. No one may pollute with impunity. That is why my department has

begun a public awareness campaign to inform homeowners of the seriousness of

these situations and to advise them as to the steps they should take. We have

also struck a committee involving many of the industry players, including fuel

oil companies, the insurance industry, environmental mediation companies, as

well as consumers, to discuss longer term solutions to this problem.

When my colleague, Ernie McLean, addressed this

Committee last year, he informed you that renewal of motor vehicle registrations

would be made available on-line during the 2000-2001 fiscal year. We have missed

that target by a month. We are now ready to roll. This will involve a bit of

lead time in mailing out the renewal notices with the personal identification

number to allow user access to the system. We intend to incorporate this PIN

with the mid-May mail-out of renewal notices, which apply to June expiries.

Our Lands Branch has two significant projects

currently underway that will result in major improvements in the delivery of

services in the Lands Branch. One is a joint program with the federal government

to link government databases together with existing software and Internet

infrastructure. The system will allow real-time access to various land based

data sets, which can be viewed in overlapping layers. For the first time, this

will provide for instant access to current data such as forestry, municipal,

wildlife, or land ownership information, thereby enabling government to make

speedier and more accurate decisions.

Our Crown titles database is also being enhanced to

increase access to all information concerning applications for Crown land. This

information will now be available to all regional lands offices and Government

Service Centres, not just the regions for which the information applies. We will

also move to electronic referrals on applications, which will greatly reduce

processing time on applications for Crown land.

That is a brief

summary of some of the things the

department has been doing, and will be doing over the next few months. I will be

happy to respond to any other questions, or would appreciate any comments or

advice you may have for me or for the department.

CHAIR: Mr. Collins, do you have a question?

MR. COLLINS: Yes. I have a few short questions.

First of all, I would just like to say that, in the

Crown Lands Division, there is a saying in Labrador, particularly the part of

Labrador that I represent, that it would probably take less time to buy a piece

of property in downtown Toronto than it would to get a piece of Crown land to

put a cabin on. The time delays are unreal. I know of people I have gotten calls

from who have been waiting five, six or seven months to straighten out a piece

of land that is already designated as a cabin area; I guess the frustration that

builds up with trying to get approval. Now, of course, it is an additional cost

where people have to get an environmental person or someone with an

environmental background in, and they have to dig two holes in the ground, about

four feet deep, do a water test for drainage for septic systems or for outdoor

toilets. It is almost a nightmare. Even on a personal level, I went through one

myself when I was trying to acquire a piece of land that already had a cabin

existing on it. That was about a year-and-a-half ago. I had to track down the

people who had the land out here in St. John's, for the land in Labrador, and to

my knowledge it is still not straightened away yet.

Having said that, it is something that probably the

minister should look at, particularly in Labrador where the communities are

separated by a great distance. Everything that we do in Labrador West has to go

through the Goose Bay office, even though there is a satellite office in Wabush.

Something the minister could look at is maybe giving the people there probably a

bit more authority to deal with some of the things.

In addition to that, at one point in time a few years

ago we could go to the Wabush satellite office and obtain maps of the area for

fishing and hunting, and even where the cabins are located, because that is all

allotted out in the mapped-out area for cottage development. Again, now we even

have to go through Goose Bay to get that. It is frustrating for the people who

live particularly in Churchill Falls and the Labrador West area.

Those are just a couple of statements that I wanted to

make on that. As for specific questions, I will start off on 1.1.01.

MR. NOEL: Perhaps, before you go on to that, do

you think there is a problem with the process or do you think the problem is

particularly related to Labrador?

MR. COLLINS: I know for sure it is related to

Labrador West. I guess one of the problems is that, if you have a map of the

area, you have to mark an X on where you are going to put your cabin. The person

you are sending that application to has never seen the area in their lives. The

closest reference they have to what you are doing is probably somebody else's

cabin development area.

If you had somebody in the immediate area that a

person could go to, well, first of all, they are knowledgeable about the area.

Secondly, you do not have all of these fax flying back and forth, the

applications and the maps. If you want to put a cabin, for example, on the

Ashuanipi River, then you have to, first of all, call Goose Bay. They will fax

you in a map of the cottage area. You have to put an X on that and send it back

to them. Then they will give you, along with a processing fee.... Once they send

that back to you, then you have to also have a drainage test done, so you have

to pay someone anywhere from $300 to $1,000, I guess, whatever a person charges,

because there is no restriction on that. At one time the department used to do

it. They gave that up about two years ago and now it is up to the individual to

have that test done by a qualified person, and there is a list of qualified

people in each area of the Province. There is no limit on what they can or

cannot charge to perform this test. All they really do is: you have to have a

couple of buckets of water there to throw on the ground when they come by and

they just watch to see how fast it takes for the water to drain down through.

MR. NOEL: If it is okay with you, Mr. Chairman, I

would ask the deputy or Mr. Parrott to have a brief response to that.

CHAIR: Go ahead.

MR. PARROTT: Mr. Collins, just to start, you

talked about the frustration in dealing with applications. There are two items

that I could raise. One is that we have had difficulty staffing our Goose Bay

regional Lands office. We are down two positions there. Just last week we filled

one of them, and one of the jobs is still vacant. They have both been vacant for

over two years.

The second point would be that, in Labrador

particularly, we have a lot of private companies who own interest rights in

Crown land: IOC, Quebec North Shore and Labrador, CF(L)Co. They all own various

flood rights or mineral rights, and we have to consult with them before we issue

titles, so that adds a bit of time to the process. It is not just normally

within government. We have to consult with these land people who have rights, to

ensure that we do not put something in an area that is going to be flooded.

MR. COLLINS: That would not apply to existing

cottage lot areas that have already been given approval.

MR. PARROTT: If an existing area has been

approved, then we already have those pre-approvals and the process should be

very fast and very smooth.

MR. COLLINS: But it is not.

MR. PARROTT: I made a note there; you mentioned

specifically the Ashuanipi River area. I will check on that and I can get back

to you, if you like.

MR. COLLINS: Yes. As for the Ashuanipi River, I

just used that as an example because that is where I have a cabin myself. On the

Ashuanipi River, where it is allocated, there are a lot of cabins there,

generally that one may not be so big of a problem as, say, De Mille Lake or Mile

19 where it is not quite as developed as the Ashuanipi.

Having said that, it was not too long ago when the

department had to refund thousands of dollars to people who had cabins on the

Ashuanipi River, in a certain section, because the department found out they

were, in fact, charging people $75 a year on land that the government did not

own and that was, in fact, owned by the Iron Ore Company of Canada. I think your

department refunded people a substantial amount of money about a year ago.

MR. PARROTT: Yes, that is correct, it was on

private property.

MR. COLLINS: Under 1.1.01.03., Transportation and

Communications, I notice that budgeted prior was $88,900 and revised to

$133,400, and the estimate for this year is $50,000.

MR. NOEL: As you know, the previous minister, in

addition to the responsibility for Government Services and Lands, had the

responsibility for Labrador Affairs. He found it necessary to spend more money

than the minister will probably need to spend this year for transportation and

communication purposes. So, as you will see, the budget is providing for a

reduced amount for this year and I hope we will be able to live within that.

MR. COLLINS: Under 2.1.04, Insurance and Pensions,

item 05., Professional Services: Prior budget $36,000, revised to $101,000, and

estimated for 2001/2002 at $22,000. There seems to be a big difference there.

MR. NOEL: Yes, 2.1.04, item 05., Professional

Services, right? That is the line you are asking about, Professional Services?

MR. COLLINS: Yes, under the Insurance and

Pensions, 2.1.04., minister.

MR. NOEL: The increased requirement resulted from

the appointment of a Consumer Advocate in relation to a Public Utilities Board

hearing into the disposition of a surplus in a fund to cover high risk drivers.

Those were the hearings before the Public Utilities Board that we just heard

reported on last week. So, there was a substantial amount required to provide

for proper representation at those hearings. We do not anticipate a similar

requirement this year, so we are just budgeting $22,000.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

MR. NOEL: Also, funding is no longer required to

contract with the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada

to undertake audit and examination services for the department. These are now

being performed by in-house staff.

MR. COLLINS: Okay, thank you.

Under 2.1.06., Securities Administration, again

Professional Services: There wasn't anything budgeted last year. It was revised

to $4,000 and this year the estimate is $17,000.

MR. NOEL: Yes. The amount used last year provided

for compensation for board member fees for the Securities Commission of

Newfoundland. We have now established a full commission, board member fees for

the Securities Commission of Newfoundland and participation in projects of the

Canadian Securities Administrators Association). We never had a full commission

in place prior to recent months. Now that we have it, it is going to cost us

more money to ensure that we have a proper administration of the commission.

That commission was set up in November, so the amount for last year covered just

a three or fourth-month period. This year we have the budget for the whole year.

MR. COLLINS: Under 4.1.04., Geomatics Agreements,

Purchased Services, from $120,000 budgeted, $120,000 revised, to $370,000 in the

Estimates.

MR. NOEL: That is a requirement for additional

funding provided to undertake projects related to the federal GeoConnections

program. Are you familiar with GeoConnections program?

MR. COLLINS: No.

MR. NOEL: Who is able to give us a little better

explanation on that?

MR. PARROTT: The GeoConnections program is the

program the minister referenced earlier in his opening remarks concerning

initiatives in the Lands Branch to tie government data bases together. It will

help out in the issues you mentioned earlier, about service to Labrador West as

well. Basically, what that is, is a federally funded program to enhance the

availability and interchangeability of Geo reference data throughout Canada.

We have recently been successful in obtaining a

partnership with the federal government to help link the various data bases

throughout the provincial government together. This program will use the

existing hardware infrastructure of the Internet that is throughout the

Province, as well as use off the shelf software to allow us to, in real time,

access the various data bases like a map of which land is Crown and which is

not, information from the forestry data bases, et cetera. This will allow

various government departments, and hopefully on into the public through

Internet access down the road, to access this data and make better and more

timely decisions.

The cost, the way that is structured, is provincial

money upfront and then it is billed back to the federal government. So actually

it is not a $370,000 expenditure by the Province; it is actually a $70,000

expenditure. The remainder of the revenue will be put in by the federal

government.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

I do not have any questions, but I do want to make one

final comment on 2.1.04., on the Insurance and Pensions, insurance companies, in

general, and the rates that are being charged around the Province. I guess this

applies to government, the auto industry insurance companies as well, the fact

that if you look at a person who has been driving for a great number of years

with a clean unblemished record, when it pertains to having accidents - if you

are unfortunate enough to have had a couple of accidents in a short period of

time, you are paying for six years through the nose, and your previous good

record of driving does not account for anything.

You start off and if you have one accident, to most

insurance companies that is probably what they call forgiven, but if you have

another one immediately following that, if you have a run of bad luck, then you

are paying much more. In many cases, you are paying the insurance companies back

many times over for the actual cost of the accident that they actually paid the

claim on. A lot of people are not aware of this until they actually get caught

up in that situation and find out that if they had known they probably never

would have claimed through their insurance company, because they would have been

further ahead in the long-run by paying for the accident themselves out of their

own pocket.

I do not know what can be done about that in regard to

this meeting, but I think it is something that the minister and the department

should be aware of. I am sure many people are. A lot of people are getting

placed in a position where many of them cannot afford insurance after claiming a

couple of accidents that they have had, say at a $4,000 or $5,000 value. If they

happen to have a string of bad luck and have two or three of them, then it puts

them in a position where they probably cannot afford to pay the claims out of

their own pocket, but immediately after they get their claims settled they

cannot afford to pay the insurance premiums in the years that follow either.

MR. NOEL: Yes, a number of people have brought

these problems to my attention and to the department's attention in the past,

and we are constantly looking at what we may be able to do in that regard. A lot

of people are not even informed when a charge has been assessed to their record.

People find out sometimes years later that their insurance premiums were

affected as a result of some accident that they never realized was a negative

for their record.

One of the reasons that we appeared before the PUB

hearings on the Facility Association was to try to ensure that when people find

themselves in that kind of situation, the rates that they are required to pay

are kept to a minimum. Unfortunately, it appears that the judgment last week was

not in keeping with the outcome that we were hoping to get, but we haven't done

a proper analysis of that yet and that is in process. When we have that

completed we will be making a further statement on our view and whether we

propose to taking any further actions in that regard.

It is a difficult kind of thing to regulate because

insurance companies are also private businesses. It is up to them what factors,

I suppose, to some extent, they want to take into account in signing up a policy

and accessing rates. We can -

MR. COLLINS: I think the consumer should be told:

If you claim this accident, next year, when your insurance is up for renewal

with us, this is what you are going to pay and this is how long you are going to

pay.

MR. NOEL: Yes, and they should probably be

informed when an accident is being brought into the assessment of their policy

standing. It seems to me, unfair and inappropriate that this happens and

sometimes the consumer is never informed, or may only find out a number of years

later. I am going to pursue that to see if we can, at least, ensure that people

are informed when they are in that situation.

MR. COLLINS: I don't have any further questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Collins.

MR. NOEL: Is there anything else we need to add to

that?

MS WAKEHAM: I would just like to add to that. The

minister made reference in his opening remarks to the Select Committee on

Property and Casualty Insurance. There are a number of recommendations that we

are looking at there with the insurance company, to the effect of trying to

reduce rates overall in the insurance industry. It is not something that is

going to happen tomorrow, but it is certainly a direction that the department is

pursuing.

MR. COLLINS: I certainly think consumers should be

told anyway: If you charge this against your insurance, then when your insurance

is up for renewal you are going to pay an extra $2,000 a year for the next six

years. You will have to pay $12,000 for a $5,000 accident.

MS WAKEHAM: As it is right now, there is no

requirement under the existing legislation that an insurance company has to

inform the consumer that his premiums are going to be X as a result of the

accident. I am not sure if, in any other jurisdiction, that provision exists,

but we will certainly check to see if that is the case.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Young.

MR. YOUNG: The questions I had were answered, so I

have no further questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just a couple of questions, and I

won't unduly delay you. I know you are in a rush. I have always found that the

Department of Government Services and Lands and their staff have been very

helpful in any requests or inquiries that I have had, as was the previous

minister. I have found the current minister, in his previous capacities, to be

the same way. I see no need to unduly delay the Committee any further than it

has been delayed.

I will ask a couple of questions. The first one arises

from a question asked by the previous Committee member, regarding Minister's

Office, Transportation and Communication. You responded by saying it was due to

the fact that the previous minister was the minister responsible for Labrador.

Is it standard practice that the portfolio that the minister would hold would

bear the cost of charges for transportation to and from Labrador? Shouldn't that

be under a category of it's own? Shouldn't there be a category there responsible

for Labrador Affairs?

MR. NOEL: That was, essentially, a category

responsible for Labrador Affairs. This was not expenses run up as a consequences

of his being an MHA for the area, it was as a consequence of his being the

Minister responsible for Labrador Affairs and that is part of the responsibility

that he had as a minister. Since there wasn't a separate budget for Labrador

Affairs the expenses to do with those responsibilities were brought into the

overall departmental budget, as I understand it.

WITNESS: That is correct.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So, it would be standard practice,

that whatever portfolio the Minister responsible for Labrador Affairs would

have, that would go into that particular minister's office as opposed to -

MR. NOEL: Yes. Well, it is changed now as a result

of our setting up a new ministry responsible for Labrador Affairs, but in the

past it was not a separate ministry, it was a combined ministry. You know, I

would not incur expenses on behalf of the department through traveling to

Labrador unless I do so specifically on business related to the Department of

Government Services and Lands, but Mr. McLean traveled to Labrador on all sorts

of business that was not specifically related to Government Services and Lands.

It was still ministerial business and it was through the ministry of Government

Services and Lands that the expenditures were accounted for.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. I guess more directly to the

inquiry I am trying to get a response for: Budgeted last year was $88,900 and

the actual amount spent was $133,400. So, would that have come from somewhere

else within the department? Would another title in the department have had to

decrease the amount budgeted in order to - or would it have come from somewhere

else within the department?

MR. NOEL: That is most likely the case. I do not

know if any new spending was approved for that purpose last year.

MR. MOULAND: No, these monies would have been

transferred from other budgetary areas within the Department of Government

Services and Lands.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. NOEL: Sometimes if you need additional funds

beyond what is budgeted, you can go back to Treasury Board and get a new

allocation, but most of the time if there are excess funds in other divisions of

the department, they would merely switch to the purpose required.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. That answers my inquiry. I

think it is probably good then that there is a new ministry set up because -

MR. NOEL: Good for that department, but government

still has its responsibilities for Labrador and we are going to incur the same

expenditures.

MR. T. OSBORNE: But other areas of the department

for which that minster sits should not have to suffer because of the fact that

he is responsible for another area.

MR. NOEL: Absolutely.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Purchased Services under

Minister's Office: The amount budgeted last year is the same as the amount this

year, but there was an increase in the expenditure.

MR. NOEL: Again the problem relates to his also

being Minister for Labrador Affairs, and he was often required to host

delegations from Labrador and different things that have to do with his

responsibilities for Labrador. I understand that there was a significant demand

for those purposes last year that we do not anticipate occurring in the present

year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Some of the other questions that I

had were previously asked so there is no need to repeat those.

Under 4.1.01., Crown Land, Transportation and

Communications: The amount budgeted last year was increased and the revised

amount is approximately the budgeted amount this year. So, I guess, the question

would be: What changed within that area of the department to demand an increase?

MR. NOEL: Primarily, additional travel relating to

ATV trail inspections. That was a bit more than anticipated last year and we

anticipate a similar level of expenditures this year; mainly incurred through

the use of helicopters for those purposes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. Professional Services: I am

just wondering what the $20,000 amount was for?

MR. NOEL: That was a particular requirement to

cover legal fees for an outstanding court case. I do not know if we have the

details on what the court case was.

MS WAKEHAM: It would not matter what the court

case was. The fact was, the Crown was taken to court and we lost the case. The

$20,000 was for the legal expenses incurred.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That was for that chap's fence

last year, was it?

MS WAKEMAN: Yes.

MR. PARROTT : Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It was just coincidental that I

knew.

Under Purchased Services, there was a decrease in the

revised amount last year, but an increase in the budgeted amount this year.

MR. NOEL: The amount for this year is because we

are going to be hosting the annual Land Directors Conference, which is a

responsibility we never had last year. Funding was reduced last year because it

was transferred from this area to cover legal fees for an outstanding court

case.

MS WAKEHAM: If you looked at $108,900, and you saw

there was no appropriation for the Professional Services, $20,000 was taken from

there and put up in Professional Services. That is where the difference is.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Now, Property, Furnishings and

Equipment - my final Estimates question.

MR. NOEL: That was additional funding required to

replace a pickup and two ATVs used by the department.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. As I said, that was my final

Estimates question for this particular committee hearing. I do have two general

questions, however, and one of those we chatted briefly on. It may or may not

even fall under your department, but I know the problem exists under your

department, whether the budgeted amount would come from your department.

Municipal Affairs, I guess, would probably be different.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units - I know

there have been three oil leaks at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units this

winter, and all three of those were caused by a break in the lines. I think a

couple of them were because of ice falling off roofs and another because of the

expansion and contraction of the ground, and the line ran along the ground.

Are you anticipating bringing in regulations,

primarily with government owned buildings that are heated by fuel, oil, to

provide protective housing or demand that protective housing be put in place

over the copper lines?

MR. NOEL: That is the reason that we have set up a

consultation committee with representatives of the industry, consumers and the

insurance industry, to see what kind of recommendations those people might make

to government in this regard. Of course, we are talking to yourself and other

people who have an interest in this. At the end of this process, we will make a

decision about whether we think there should be new regulations or not. It would

be premature for me to say what the conclusions might be at this time.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I understand that; but, as far as

government owned buildings, prior to the outcome of this particular committee,

we know what the problems are.

MR. NOEL: If government owns the property then

government will make a policy decision about whether or not we want to do that

sort of thing to protect our interest. It would not require regulation. If we

feel that something needs to be done then we have the capacity to do it

ourselves, on our own property, without making a regulation to require it.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. NOEL: I would think that we would do that if

it is concluded that would be helpful in the circumstances, and certainly if it

is a recommendation of the committee we have established.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The other question is: With the

increase in fuel costs, obviously, as with every department, there is going to

be an increase in cost to the department. Where would that show up in the

budget, for the cost of increased fuel, not only for buildings that are operated

and so on by Government Services, but vehicles?

MR. NOEL: I would think it would be spread

throughout many of the items within the department. In any particular area, I

suppose, it would not be a terribly significant amount so it may not stand out,

but it would certainly have to be accounted for.

MS WAKEHAM: Unlike, say, the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation which has a lot of equipment and buildings, you can

see under their Purchased Services that there are some fairly significant jumps

in the cost, which is relatedly totally to the increases in fuel costs. However,

with Government Services and Lands there are not that many vehicles. We have no

buildings. The cost in terms of fuel would be shown individually under the

Transportation and Communications portion of each of the various accounts.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Thank you, Minister.

MR. NOEL: Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms. Jones.

MS JONES: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Mr. Mercer.

MR. MERCER: No questions. Just a comment, Mr.

Minister -

CHAIR: You are going to comment.

MR. MERCER: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I have just a

couple of comments. Earlier when we started the Estimates, I made some reference

to a land problem that I was having in a particular community; but, for all the

problems that I have had with issues such as that, I have had a number of very

good dealings with the department, and in particular with Mr. Morris, in terms

of a pension issue with the City of Corner Brook, which we were able to get

resolved. It was a legislative matter which was able to be dealt with through, I

believe, an Order in Council, which allowed some retirees from the former

council who had a very small pension coming to them. The amount which they were

allowed to draw by regulation was so minuscule as to be insignificant.

We just want to publicly thank Mr. Morris for his

assistance in making that change, and to inform him that the individuals so

concerned were able to do a deal with their insurance company. Now they have

quite an adequate income stream to age sixty-five, where they will be eligible

for old age security. So that small change did make a big difference to a goodly

number of people in the Corner Brook area. I want to thank you very much for

that, Sir.

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Mercer, for recognizing

the competence of the people in our department. I have come to recognize it in

the few weeks that I have been there. They have done a pretty good job of

keeping me out of trouble so far, and I am confident they are going to continue

doing that, because I must say we have some really capable and dedicated people

in the department. It has been a pleasure for me to get to know them. I have a

great deal of confidence in the job they do for the Province.

MR. MERCER: Just so Mr. Parrott, my good friend

from years ago in the Department of Forestry, does not feel slighted: Bill, I

would really like to thank you as well for assistance, which I think points to a

bit of a problem in your department. It dealt with the issuance of a Crown

lease, or whatever the policy is these days, within a municipal boundary; where

the municipality had no particular problem with the application - as a matter of

fact, they were supportive of it - but yet certain officials within the

department felt that the government should go through the expense of a land use

planning exercise and probably would have delayed the application for another

several years. I think the department, upon reflection, saw the wisdom, or the

error of its ways, and acceded to the wishes of the community and that

application was approved.

Bill, those houses will be built, coming spring, and

the town will get the additional revenues from them.

Thank you kindly.

MR. PARROTT: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Sweeney.

MR. SWEENEY: I have no questions. This is one - I

have been dealing with Bill for years.

WITNESS: If I had known that, I would have said

something.

CHAIR: I will be quick. This is just a question,

and I will make two statements.

Does the office in Corner Brook, the Crown Lands

office in Corner Brook, have the ability to approve Crown land and issue a

lease? I have been told now, and this has been ongoing, that they do. I have

been told by the officials that they do not. Do they have the ability, in

Government Services and Lands, in Corner Brook, to issue a Crown land lease?

MR. NOEL: I will defer to the senior officials

here, who can give you the most accurate answer.

MR. PARROTT: The regional office in Corner Brook

can approve applications in areas that are within municipal jurisdiction, or

within an area in which a plan exists. The issuance of lease rests with the

Minister of Government Services and Lands, or his delegated officials, and

delegation in that regard has been delegated to the Deputy Minister of

Government Services and Lands, or the Assistant Deputy Minister of Government

Services and Lands. The delegation issue, leases or grants, has not been

delegated to regional offices.

CHAIR: They cannot do it?

MR. PARROTT: They cannot do it; no, they cannot.

CHAIR: Okay. I have been told for a year or a

year-and-a-half that they can. I have been going to them and they were telling

me they cannot. So, they definitely cannot do it?

MR. PARROTT: No they cannot.

CHAIR: The second thing I was just going to bring

to your attention, and I know I have dealt with Bill with it, is motor vehicle

registration in Corner Brook . I dealt with the former minister and Bill, in his

former position. If you call there any time, any day, you cannot get an answer.

I have so many complaints out in Corner Brook, and I am sure Bob has. I took

Bill out, and I took the minister, and I said: Dial the number. Pick a time, any

time during the day, and you cannot get an answer.

MR. NOEL: I have had a call myself from the West

Coast in that regard with the same complaint and the department is in the

process of looking into it. I do not know if we have developed any new

information. Have we?

WITNESS: I do not know, Minister. It has been

looked at, but I do not know if there has been a resolution. I will check into

it.

CHAIR: This has been ongoing for a long while out

our way, because people who call looking for some information or some update on

their application they sent in the mail cannot even get an answer. We have

called down to the Premier's office and we cannot get an answer. We had to

physically go down and knock on the door and ask somebody: Can somebody answer

the phone? It is to that point. This is not a complaint. I am not sure if it is

understaffed or whatever. It is just that people find it frustrating when they

phone a government department and they do not get an answer.

MR. NOEL: Well, that is certainly not acceptable

service. I will see if we can do something about that.

CHAIR: I just want to make one more comment. Out

in my area, the Bay of Islands, a lot of people live up in the Goose Arm area,

cabins and all of that, there is no one who has been in contact with Crown Lands

more in the last twelve years than I have. I have to say that 99 per cent of the

time that I have dealt with Crown Lands, even if you do not get your own way,

you will get the right answer. The minister, staff, and Bill knows that. I have

been dealing with Bill for a long while, and formerly Don Winsor in Corner

Brook, and the staff in Corner Brook. I just publicly want to thank you guys,

because I have been involved with it. A lot of times we row and fight, but it is

always good service and it is always good for the constituents we deal upon,

that we do get answers. We do have a lot of successes and a lot of good

information sharing.

Minister, thank you. To the staff and Bill, thank you

very much.

MR. NOEL: I am really a bit disappointed that

these people have such a good record because I am not going to get much credit

for having much impact while I am involved with this department.

CHAIR: Any others questions?

Tom, just for the record, sorry for that. When

everybody came here, I did not know what time the House closed.

WITNESS: No problem.

CHAIR: We were speaking to Elizabeth, and we would

not start until you came here. That was agreed upon. There was definitely no

intent of trying to slight you or Wally on the Committee.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: No, we just asked would you mind getting

the introductions over. We had no intent of going ahead with the Committee

without your representation. There was no intent of doing that.

MR. NOEL: I have to apologize also. I was

encouraging the Chairman to make a call to your office, so it was me who caused

him to put a little pressure on you.

CHAIR: Sorry about that, if it was taken the wrong

way.

WITNESS: No problem.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and your staff.

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Chairman and Committee

members. It was a real pleasure.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.1.05., carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and

Lands, total heads, carried.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.