LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 11 August, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Sp ecial Comm ittees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's my pleasure to table the Supple me ntary Information for review for the 1986-87 Estimates from the Department of Manitoba Housing. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Mo tion . . . Introduction of Bills . .

ORAL QUESTIONS Manfor - shutdown of sawmill MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for Manfor. I wonder if the Min ister has any information on an impending shut-down of the sawmill at Manfor in The Pas. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter responsible for Manfor. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, the Board of . Directors will be reviewing the question of further layoffs at the sawmill over the fall months, as a result of the wet weather.

They have been unable to haul in the necessary saw logs to ensure production over the intervening months. That decision, I understand, will be finally taken and the length of duration assessed over the next couple of days. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Min ister could indic ate what the stockpile of logs that are available for production in the sawmill would amount to in terms of production time. HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I understand that in terms of saw logs there would be enough available for approximately another month, and after that time there would be some continued employment in the sawmill for planing and the rest of the work relating to inventory in the sawmill itself. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Min ister could indicate what period of time is being contemplated as a shut­ down period for the sawmill. HON. J. STORIE: The shut-down period of course would depend, to a large extent, on the weather this fall.

Normal ly, the winter log haul resumes sometime in November, and assuming that is the case, the shut­ down wou ld last until sometime November , early December, depending very much on the weather and circu mstances at the time. Manfor - notice of layoff MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether the workers have been given any notice of layoff yet. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, prelimi nary discussions I believe were held with the union representatives last Friday and the formal notices may be on their way in the next few days. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Min ister could ind icate how many jobs would be affected by this impending shut-down. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, the sawmill currently emplo ys somewhat less than 10 0 indiv idu als. I understand that the layoffs would occur in two stages; the first stage being the end of August, and finally some additional staff being laid off at the end of September, but the total number would be somewhat less than 100. Manfor - impact of layoff on financial forecast MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speak er, to the same Min ister.

Could he tell the House what impact this layoff would have on the forecasted $5 million operating loss or the $12 million net loss for the year? What impact will this layoff have on that financial forecast? MADAM SPEAKER: The Min ister responsible for Man for. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I don't have that specific information, but I can assure the member that these moves have been cont empl ated with the understanding that Manfor's responsibility, obli gation and desire is to improve the economic and financial performance of that company.

I can assure the member it is not easy to make that decision, but the decision was necessary. 2767

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MR. C. MANNESS: I would ask the Min ister whether these layoffs were planned previously, and if they were, whether or not he can indicate whether the forecasted loss will now be less or more? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I can indicate that this layoff was not planned previously. It comes about as a result of the fact that Manfor has not been able to get the logs from the bush as a result of heavy rains, since the middle of June.

It is anticipated that the situation is not going to improve in the near future, and it is unlikely that production at the mill will be significant enough to warrant the continued emplo yment of all of the emplo yees. It is very much a business decision, come to as a result of applying business principles, which include improving the financial position of Manfor. MR. C. MANNESS: A final suppleme ntary, Madam Speaker , maybe the Minis ter didn't hear my last question. Will this layoff improve or harm or further deteriorate the forecasted loss with respect to Manfor? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I did indicate to the honourable member that the intention of making this move at this time was to ensure that the situation at Manfor did not deteriorate and that is the reason for the decision at this time. I can only indicate that the decisions were made, I believe, in the best interests of the taxpayers and with due concern that this has caused in The Pas and the surrounding area who view each one of those jobs as an important part of their communi ty. MTS - committee meetings postponed MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The Min ister indicated that the commi ttee meeting to consider MTS and MTX had to be postponed so that MTS could put together the information that has been requested, yet the president indicated that the information was ready for last Thursday. Could the Minister indic ate why the meeting was postponed in view of the president's statement? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister responsible for MTS. HON. A.

MACKLING: Ma dam Sp eaker , I wasn 't completely satisfied that all of the questions, which I anticipate will be required to be answered, had been fully thought out and provided for; and therefore I felt it necessary to take the additional time so that more complete information will be available for the committee. MTX - disciplinary actions of employees in Saudi Arabia MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, could the Minister indicate if he is now satisfied with the answers he's been able to accumulate and provide the House with the information as to whether a Telephone System worker, who was flogged for religious offences in Saudi Arabia, and two witnesses, if they have been interviewed now? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I have not interviewed anyone involved in the incident themselves other than that I've talked to Mr. Aysan who has provided details of that, and of course we'll review that with the committee tomorrow. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the worker who was flogged and the witnesses allege a cover-up of the office's general manager, Mr. Aysan, whom the Minister has indicated he has now just spoken to, to get a full understanding of what happens, their allegations that they're concerned about a cover-up to protect him, will he now interview the worker and the witnesses prior to the comm ittee meeting tomorrow morning? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I think that the honourable members should hear the full explanation of the incident by Mr.

Aysan tomorrow, and if they believe that I should interview other witnesses following that, of course, I'l l take that under advisement. But I have heard the explanation and - (Interjection) - I don't ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: I've indicated, Madam Speaker, that I've heard the explanation and I don't believe at this stage that it would accomplish anything further for me to - (Interjection) - Madam Speaker, obviously mem bers don't want an answer. MTX - conflict of evidence available for committee presentation MR. G.

MERCIER: A final question to the Min ister. In view of the apparent conflict between the office manager, Mr. Aysan, and the worker who was flogged and the witnesses - conflict between their evidence - would he have the worker and the two witnesses available to make a presentation or give evidence before the committee tomorrow morning? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I've indicated that the committee will hear the full explanation of the incident as related to me by Mr. Aysan. If they have further questions, of course, they can put them. I don't think we should prejudge the incident.

Air ambulance - out-of-province transfers MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Min ister of Health. 2768

Monday, 11 August, 1986 This past weekend, a Thompson boy who was injured in Saskatchewan was refused transportation back to Manitoba by the air ambulance, in spite of the fact that a direct request was made for that service. I'd like to ask the Minister if he's had the opportunity to review this and, if so, why the request was refused? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I explained the situation during the debate in the Estimates.

This is a new program that we would be very careful to start, especially the first year, that this program was for emergency only and not authorized to go outside of the province for this year anyway. There'll be an assessment made and we'll see next year. It could be that it will be changed ; it'll be increased, but for the moment we want to be very careful with this program. It can be a very costly program. � MR. S.

ASHTON: A supplementary. , In view of the fact that this boy would have had to spend up to six weeks in Saskatchewan if other arrangements hadn't been made for transportation, and in view of the fact that at least one other province, Saskatchewan, does make arrangements for out-of­ province transfers, I'd like to ask the Min ister whether he would take that specific item under review and look at the possibility of changing regulations. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, we will certainly review it. As I stated, we will review the program.

It might be that it would not be that costly, if you have to pay the pilot just waiting by. Maybe it's just the question of the fuel. That'll be looked at, not necessarily what they're doing in Saskatchewan, because in some programs I think we're way ahead of that province. MTS - Cezar Industries Limited investment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for � Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. I want to thank him for providing me Friday afternoon with the business plan, etc., of Cezar Industries Ltd.

Based on that provision of information, I'd like to ask the Min ister - and I'll quote to him from the information he gave to me on Friday - "After receiving the approval of the MTX and MTS Boards, a document dated October 9, 1985, was provided to the Economic Resources Investment Committee." Subsequent to that, the ERIC commit tee approved the $3.4 mill ion investment with Cezar Ind ustries and part of the approval process attached is a copy of the original business case upon which the investment recommendation was made.

Can I ask the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephon e System if the busin ess plan for the investment in Cezar Indus tries was part of the presentation to the ERIC comm ittee of Cabinet, as was indicated in the attached document? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I believe so, but I will take the question as notice to be absolutely certain of that. MTS - attendance of Minister at ERIC committee of Cabinet MR. D. ORCHARD: Given that the documentation . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given that the documents provided on Friday would indicate that the business plan was made available to the ERIC committee of Cabinet for perusal, could the Mi nister indicate, since he was a member of the ERIC comm ittee of Cabinet in October of 1985, whether he was present at that sub-Cabinet committee hearing, which gave approval to the MTX investment with Cezar Industries? HON. A.

MACKLING: I don't kno w whether it is particularly appropriate for the member to be asking the names of persons who were present, either at Cabin et meetings or commi ttees of Cabinet, but certainly if I'm advised that it is necessary I will take the question as notice and give a response to it. MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member of Beauchesne Citation 357(gg) says that a question should not seek information about matters which are in their nature secret, such as decisions or proceed ing of Cabinet. It is my understanding that Cabinet sub-committees would fall in that category.

The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. On the point of order, which you raise, the question just relates whether the Minister was there; surely that's not a secret. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, in respect to the ruling which you have made, not only does the citation that you cited refer to meetings, such as Cabinet meetings, and I would assume that includes sub­ comm ittees of Cabinet, but also Citation 360 reinforces that particular lim itation on questions that are to be asked in this House as part of question period.

I would suggest that you walk a fine line when you try to, through your questioning, determine exactly what materials were presented to a Cabinet sub-committee, because that is part of the proceed ings of that sub­ committee, or who was present or not present in respect to a particular meeting. The memb ers opposite suggest that they are referencing only one individual in respect to his presence at the meeting or lack of presence at the meeting, but 2769

Monday, 11 August, 1986 I would suggest to you that once you start to enter into this line of questioning, the next question that follows would, in often cases, be who else was present and who wasn't present. So I believe your suggestion that we refer to not only Citation 357(gg) but 360 as well is good advice in this instance. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina on the point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, we are not dealing with a secret meeting of the ERIC comm ittee.

The Minister, on Friday as requested, provided me with the information as to how the approval for the $3.4 million investment in Cezar Industries was arrived at. It was arrived at, according to the documentation provided by the Min ister responsible for MTS, through the ERIC com mi ttee of Cabinet, whic h made a decision - according to this paper - approving that investment. There is no deep, dark secret as to what they did. The Min ister has provided me with that information.

I simply wish to determine whether in fact, as according to Order-in-Council 322, the Mi nister responsible for MTS, as a member of the ERIC committee, was indeed present at the ERIC comm ittee meeting in which the approval was given, in which the business plan was presented. MR. G. FILMON: That's very simple. MR. D. ORCHARD: It shoul dn't stretch anyone's memory. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: With all due respect, Madam Speaker, I believe the Member for Pembina misses the point of the lim itation on the questioning, and the point is to provide a general policy and practice, which this House has abided by, in regard to asking questions about proceed ings that take place in Cabinet or Cabinet sub­ commi ttee meetings. One can certainly pose the question . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Could I please hear the advice being given? HON. J.

COWAN: One can pose any question in this House, but that does not necessarily mean that that question is in order or that the Minister should answer that particular question, particularly given the limitations which are outlined in 357(gg) and 360. So the point of the particular limi tation is to ensure that those meetings which by their nature are secret, and one should not use that word in an emotive sense, as the Member for Pembina might have been attempting to do, or try to blow that out of proportion.

It's commonly accepted in parliamentary practice that those meetings are meetings that are not discussed in the House or outside of the meeting itself. For that reason, I think the Mi nister is well within his rights and as a matter of fact is following very carefully what Beauchesne recommends in respect to lim itations on meetings and information flowing from meetings of that sort.

He can choose to answer or not to answer, but certainly the members opposite should pay attention to Beauchesne, and if in fact it is considered to fall within that lim itation as outlined, not pursue that line of questioning on the basis of your ruling and what is very clearly identified in the book. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honour able Mini ster responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I just want to add further to what the Honourable House Leader has said, and I don't think the Honourable Member for Pembina will deny that I have endeavoured to provide information to him.

I sought him out on Friday to provide him with the information he requested, so that he could have it as soon as possible to review, and I would prefer to be able to answer all questions that members put to me. I am concerned , however, that we do not offend the rules, because I am bound by the rules as are all members of the House and it's important that we abide by them. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, just a final submission. The rule relates to questions pertaining to decisions or proceedings.

Those kinds of questions would be something like a member asking what went on at the meeting and what was the decision. In this particular instance, the Min ister has supplied the Member for Pembina with the record of the decision. The question that he is attempting to ask is simply was the Minister present when that decision was made. Surely to goodness there is nothing secret about that kind of information. The decision has already been given to the Min ister; the Member for Pembina just wants to know whether the Minister was there. Surely, that's not a secret. MR. D. ORCHARD: It is now; it's a secret now.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order , order please. It's my understanding that the proceed ings or the minutes of any particular meeting would include the list of those who attended. It's my understanding that the list of those who attended would be part of that proceeding. I think in this particular circumstance where a Min ister has given a member information and documentation from a meeting, questions arising from that particular piece of material would be in order, but questions outside that particula r piece of material about proceed ings of that particular Cabinet sub-committee meeting would not be in order.

The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Just for clarification then, Madam Speaker, are you ruling out a question by the Member for Pembina as to whether or not the Minister was present when the decision was made? 2770

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: That's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: I would, with due respect, challenge your ruling, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say aye; all those opposed say nay. In my opinion, the ruling of the Chair has been sustained. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and nays, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. All those in favour, please rise.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as foll ows: YEAS Ashton, Bak er, Bucklaschuk, Cowan, Desjardins, Doer, Dolin, Evans, Harapiak (The Pas), Harapiak (Swan River), Harper, Hemphill, Lecuyer, Mackling, Mal oway, Parasiuk, Plohman, Santos, Scott, Smith (Ellice), Smith (Osborne), Storie, Walding, Wasylycia-Leis. NAYS Birt, Blake, Brown, Carstairs, Conn ery, Cummings, Dried ger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findla y, Jo hn ston, Kov nats, Mann ess, Mccrae, Mercier , Nordman, Oleson, Orchard, Pank ratz, Rocan, Roch. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Yeas, 24; Nays, 23.

MADAM SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'd.) MTS - ERIC committee of Cabinet re MTX and Cezar Industries MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System and also in his capacity as a member of the ERIC comm ittee of Cabinet.

Can the Minister indic ate that when the MTX-MTS proposal for a $3.4 millio n inve stment in Cezar Industries was presented to the ERIC comm ittee of Cabinet, he, as Minister responsible for the Telephone System, was familiar with the business plan and the attached documentation, which was presented to the ERIC comm ittee of Cabinet? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. 2771 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege of the House.

Madam Speaker, the Min ister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System pro vided me with documentation on Friday of this week indicating that among other things the business plan of the proposal by MTX-MTS involving the $3.4 million investment by MTX and Cezar Industries was presented to the ERIC committee of Cabinet. On checking the records of the membership of the ERIC committee of Cabinet in October 1985, I find that the Mi nister of Natural Resources, the Min ister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, was also a member of the ERIC committee of Cabinet, according to Order-in-Council 322.

Madam Speaker, the Minister has indicated today that part of the presentation to the ERIC committee of Cabinet was the business plan of the Cezar Industries investment and that was part of the documentation which he was familiar with at the time of October 1985, because he just indicated that to me in the House right now. My matter of privilege arises from the fact that on Thursday, the 17th of July 1986, during consideration of the Manitoba Telephone System Annual Report before the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources, Page 12 6, I asked a series of questions to Mr.

Plun kett, President of MTX, about the business plan of the investment by MTX and Cezar Industries. Mr. Plun kett indicated, "Mr. Chairman, whenever we're making investment we prepare a business case, which is subsequently developed in the marketing plans and business plans." My next question, Madam Speaker, was posed to the Minister when I asked, "Mr. Chairman, has the Min ister seen that business case and business plan?" The Honourable Mr.

Mackling on the 17th of July, Thursday, 1986, indicated no, and misled the Committee of Natural Resources and Public Utilities in the fact that he has admitted today that he indeed had access to that business plan. Therefore, Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition, that the Minister of Natural Resources, and Min ister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System, apologize to the Hous e for misleading the Committee of Natural Resources and Public Utilities. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member has raised a matter of privilege.

May I remind the honourable member that a dispute between two members about questions of fact stated in debate is not a matter of privilege. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. would hope that the Honourable Memb er for Pembina was not accusing the Speaker of a bald-faced lie. MR. D. ORCHARD: Absolutely not, Madam Speaker.

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: I will take the matter un der advisement and peruse the Hansard in question and report back to the House on whether or not the member has a matter of privilege. Salt water spills re oil drilling MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Acting Minister of Agriculture. Some two-and-a-half weeks ago I raised a question in the House about the number of salt water spills that occurred in the oil patch area in the last five or six years. I wonder if has that information ready.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I haven't been given that specific information and will advise the Min ister of Agriculture of the question again and he will bring the information as soon as possible. MR. G. FINDLAY: In the oil patch area when oil spills or salt water spills occ ur, it seems that the responsibility to be sure that the areas are cleaned up falls on the lando wner.

I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment if his department, in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, is prepared to get involved in assuring that the land owners' rights are looked after in clean­ up operations? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of the Environment. HON. G. LECU YER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am aware, Madam Speaker, that there has been interaction between my department and the Department of Agriculture. I will endeavour to bring details of that information tomorrow for the member.

Air ambulance - out-of-province transfers MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister reponsible for the Manitoba Government Air Service. I wonder if he could inform the House as to the government policy in connection with the Air Ambulance Service operated by the Manitoba Government Air Service and what reciprocal arrangements we have with our sister provinces. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Highways and Transportation. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The polic ies as far as use of the jet aircraft, the air ambulance, are set by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. The operations are simply carried out by the Air Services Division. We ensure the pilots are there and ready to go when calls come in, so the policy is set by the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission and the question should be mo re appropriately directed to the Min ister of Health. MR. D.

BLAKE: Madam Speaker, while he's answering that, the Minister might also inform us if all the orders for ambula nce trips are given by the Health Services Commi ssion, and there's none gi ven by the Air Transport Authority itself? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The Minister explained the responsibility lies with the Commission. Of course the department takes care of the maintenance of the plane, the pilo ts and so on, but as far as the trips and polic y, that is the responsibility of the Commission. As of now, as I said earlier, it's a rather new program.

We haven't made any arrangements with any other provinces. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House if discussions are taking place with our sister provinces in this connection with reciprocal arrangements or just where do we stand with our service. HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, at this time we feel we should have at least a year to evaluate the programs and then we'll see if there's any change - if it warrants any changes - in the total cost and to see if we should have any arrangements with other provinces. Gimli Dragways MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E.

CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Last week I asked the Acting Minister of Government Services what was happening at the Gimli Dragways in relation to the length of run that they have. On the long weekend, they had to cut their quarter mile down to one-eighth of a mile for the race. Can the Min ister give us any indication if some resolve is going to take place at the Gimli Drag Races? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, this matter has been raised in the House previous to that as well.

The member is correct that he did raise this with the Acting Minister of Government Services last Friday. The fact is that there was an arrangement worked out by the Gimli Dragways that they would conduc t the racing at a shorter track and apparently that did go off well this past weekend. We are continuing to encourage the parties that are involved in this dispute - Dimar Training Systems and Gimli Dragways and the Winn ipeg Sports Car Club - to undertake discussions in an attempt to resolve the 2772

Monday, 11 August, 1986 differences between the two so accommodation can be worked out for Gimli Dragways. At the present time, I'm no t aware such an accommodation has indeed been worked out. I can remind the member any action the government might take with regard to the leases that are there would not resolve it on a short-term basis because any notice for changing of leases or cancellation of leases would involve a notice period of at least 90 days, therefore that would not resolve the problem for this racing season.

That is why we're taking the position that the two parties to the dispute should be encouraged to resolve it as quickly as possible, and they are continuing those discussions it is my understanding. MR. E. CONNERY: Well, Madam Speaker, I'm sure the Min ister knows Dimar is using a part of the runway that they don't have a lease for and therefore have some lever over Dimar to accommodate them . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member � have a question? MR. E.

CONNERY: . . . will the Min ister use that lever to make sure that the Dragways go on in a proper manner, as it is quite an economic boom to Gimli, and I'm sure the Member for Gimli would be somewhat concerned that this matter be resolved in a proper way so we could have the proper drag races? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, the Member for Portage is wrong when he says that Dimar Training Systems are using a part of a runway which they do not have a lease for. They do indeed have a lease for that runway.

The difficulty is that Gimli Dragways were using part of that area, even though they did not have it under lease at that time, over the last number of years they've been leasing space at Gimli Runways. They were not leasing this section. So what we have then is a disputed area now where Dimar Training Systems are legitima tely leasing a

section of the runway that was being used but not in � a formal way by Gimli Dragways and there lies the , problem. That is one of the things they're trying to discuss now and work out. Berens River Road MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Northern Affairs. The Berens River Road study was submitted by UMA Engin eering on July 8, 19 86, to this government. Can the Min ister of Northern Affairs tell us when the Berens River Road will be constructed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, the Mem ber for River Heights is correct in saying the report was submitted on July 8. It was forwarded to the Department of Northern Affairs in Thompson. The majority of the staff and all of the staff that would deal with that problem is located in Thompson. They are presently analyzing the report, and as soon as we get a report back, we will be having a meeting with the Community of Berens River and the bands from Berens River and also the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. We would at that point make a decision when any construction would be taking place. MRS. S.

CARST AIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister. Will the Min ister guarantee to the people of Berens River that the interim improvements slated for 19 86 is one of the statements of the report will in fact take place? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, the road in Berens River has been under question for quite some time. Last year, there was a group of children who were flown in at quite an expense to make known the conditions of the road.

Since that time, we have made quite an improvement to the roads and there are further improvements being made at this time because we do not know what the recommendations of the report are at this time. Once we have an opportunity to analyze it, then we will be dealing with that problem. But in the meantime, we are upgrading the roads. Once again, we don't want the childr en being taken out of school to make their plight known, so at this time, we are upgrading that road and making sure it is in a condition that the buses can be using the road to bring the childr en to school when the school season does start.

Highway construction budget MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I direct a question to the Mi nister of Highways and Transportation. I wonder if the Min ister could indicate how much of the regrettably-reduced Highways new construction budget has in fact been contracted for at this point in time. We are now approaching mid-August, Madam Speak er, and people, particularly in rural Manitoba, would be interested to know how much of the $84 million, $86 million I believe it was, which was contained in the program has actually gone out under contract.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I don't have the exact figures, obviously a substantial amount. The amount contracted for is usually much more than the actual dollars that will be flowed, because every contract that is actually let out is not completed in a given year.

So it is difficult to say at this particular time whether they will hit the target exactly on, but of course they're working with that in mind to stage the construction in such a way with normal weather conditions that the total construction budget will indeed be flowed this year. 2773

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speak er, I want to indicate to the Honourable Minister, it's not all that obvious, particularly to rural Manitobans, as to how much highway construction is going on in the province. Lake Manitoba Fisheries - licences MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I have another question for the Minister of Natural Resources which I would appreciate perhaps if he will take as notice. It concerns the Lake Manitoba Fisheries. I appreciate his Estimates are coming up shortly.

I would like to know how many additional licences ha ve been issued on the Lake Manitoba fisheries in the last two years. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I will take that as notice. I can give you an approximation. There are, I think, in the range of 700 licence hold ers on Lake Manitoba. There has been a significant increase in the last four-year period and I have recently had a meeting with a representativ e from the gr oup.

They are expressing concern and they would like to see some mechanism put in place to establish a level of lic ences for the lake which would ensure that all lic ence holders had an opportunity to carry out a viable busine ss. But I will get the more specific information to the member during the Estimates process or in this Chamber. Accidents re split-rim wheels MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Workplace Safety and Health.

Given the recent accident involv ing a split-rim wheel, and given the safety record of split-rim wheels over the past number of years, has the Min ister taken any action concerning the possible banning or regulation to ensure the safety of workers in Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Workplace Safety and Health. HON. G. LECU YER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the member for that question. The number of accidents and inde ed the fatality last year, and the near fatality this weekend, is very much a concer n for myself and members of the department.

We have in the past, because of the problems associated with this type of wheel, proceeded to draft the bull etin which we circula ted widely in the Province of Manitoba warning of the dangers associated with this type of wheel and of the procedures to use to service this type of wheel using diagrams. As well, Madam Speaker , we have prepared the film which safety and health officers have been taking to various garage repair shops to show how this procedure is to be undertaken.

As well, we have prepared the bulletin which we have sent, especially in the rural areas, because some of these wheels are used on various farm machinery. So it's been distributed to radio stations which have published this bulletin. We have sent it to rural newspapers who also have published it. We have drafted a regulation to be implemented as part of a broader safety and health regulation which is presently also being looked at by the industrial comm ittee of the Workplace Advisory Council. Hopeful ly, Ma dam Speaker, changes can be implemented as a result of that.

MTS - committee meeting MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister responsible for MTS. I wonder if he could assure us that both Mr. Holland and Mr. Plun kett will be at the committee tomorrow morning to answer questions. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Madam Speaker. Agriculture, Minister of - First Ministers' meeting MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Premier.

I wonder if she could indicate whether or not the Minister of Agriculture is attending the First Min isters' meeting in Edmonton today and tomorrow. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: To the best of my knowledge, Madam Speaker, but I'll certainly inquire. Schools - early opening MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is the Minister of Education.

I've had a number of parents express concern about the early opening of the schools in the last week of August of this year and my question then to the Minister is: Is the reason for the opening of the schools in August because of departmental policy or is it due to school division policy? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Education. HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, Madam Speaker, I missed that question. 2774

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MR. C. BIRT: I will repeat the question. The public schools are opening in the last week of August this year and I believe most of them are opening on Tuesday of that week. A number of parents have expressed concern to me about that early opening, and I'm wondering if the Mini ster will advise whether it's the policy of the Department of Education to have them open prior to the September long weekend or is it the responsibility of the school divisions. HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, school divisions have that authority and it has actually been the practice of school divisions for some years, at least some school divisions, to open prior to the September long weekend. MR. C. BIRT: Is it the policy of the department that the school divisions must be open a certain number of days per year and, if they have to comply with this requirement that they have to open much earlier this year? I believe the openings have always been on Thursdays and Fridays and this time it's going into � Tuesdays and Wednesdays of that particular week. HON. J.

STORIE: I've indicated, Madam Speaker, that the school divisions make those choic es and the mem ber is correct. I believe he kno ws that the department does require a certain number of days for a school to be open. I believe most school divisions use the first several days, the first day or two certainly, for professional development activities, but again that is a matter for each school division to determine in conjunction with their professional staff, Madam Speaker. MR. C.

BIRT: The question to the Mi nister is: I have been informed that the reason that schools are to open earlier is to save money because they can be closed longer at the Christmas season. Is there any evidence, or can the Min ister confirm that there is in fact substantial savings to the department in the school divisions because the schools do open earlier in August? � HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I believe that from , our own experience in the community colleges that, yes, there are significant savings to be had, although I would have to refer to individual divisions to gather information about their own particular savings. I should indic ate that the changes that came about and resulted in the earlier starting of school came about as a result of the vast majority of school divisions making that request. So it's a result of negotiations and a practical result, I suppose, of discussions over a number of years.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Fort Garry with a final supplementary. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Min ister has made reference to studies about the savings that were to flow from this early opening. I'm wondering if the Min ister would advise what these studies were and perhaps table copies of them in the House. HON. J. STORIE: Mada m Speaker, the member perhaps wasn't listening when I gave my response.

I had indicated that information from within, in terms of our own community college operation, suggested that, yes, there were considerable savings; and I said I would have to canvass individual school divisions to see whether in fact they had calcula ted the savings. It is certainly their belief that there are savings and that is one of the reasons for the change in polic y. If the member is asking me whether in fact we will be undertaking studies of this kind, the answer is no. Agriculture, Minister of First Ministers' meeting MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, a few moments ago, I said to the best of my knowledge the Minister of Agriculture was attending the First Ministers' meeting. It's just been confirmed to me that although he was expected to attend, he is in fact ill. MADAM SPEAKER: If there are no further questions, we can move on to Orders of the Day. COMM ITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have some committee changes. On Public Utilities and Natural Resources: Orchard for Blake; and Filmon for Nordman. On Economic Development: Ducharme for Enns.

On Rules of the House: Kovnats for McCrae. MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that he is to use member's constituency names. The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, substituting in Public Utili ties and Natural Resources: the Memb er for Transcona for the Member for Gimli; the Member for Dauphin for the Member for Churchill; the Member for Kildonan for the Member for The Pas; the Member for Osborne for the Member for Logan.

Economic Development Committee, the following substitutions: the Mem ber for The Pas for the Member tor Gimli; the Mem ber for Swan River for the Member for Seven Oaks; the Member for Member for Burrows tor the Memb er for Thom pson; the Memb er for Elmwood for the Mem ber for Kildonan; the Member for Radisson for the Member for lnks ter. Rules Committee, the following subsitutions: the Member for The Pas for the Member for Burrows; the Mem ber for Rupertsland for the Member for Fort Rouge. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, I wonder if Madam Speaker could advise as to which is the right way to make committee changes, because I've been doing it for the past two-and-a-half years in this respect and, if there's supposed to be a change, could the Speaker please advise. MADAM SPEAKER: I will certainly advise the honourable member. It seems to me that we've been 2775

Monday, 11 August, 1986 doing it by constituency names, and that there is an outstanding rul e of the Hous e that we onl y use constituency names in the Chamber, but I will certainly check as to whether that has slipp ed my attention in the past, not being infallible. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speak er, this is to indic ate that the Comm ittees of Supply that will be sitting today will be reviewing the Department of Urban Affairs in the Chamber, and starting review of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security in the Comm ittee Room. I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Minister of Mun icipal Affairs.

I also understand that there is an inclina tion on the part of all members to forego Private Mem bers' Hour today and continue on with the review of Estimates until 5:30. MOTION presented and ca rried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Suppl y to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Urban Affairs; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the De partment of Employment Services and Economic Security. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECURITY MR. CHAIRMAN, M.

Dolin: Committee will come to order. We are dealing with the Estimates of Emplo yment Services and Economic Secur ity, Page 58. Prior to dealing with individual resolutions we will have an opening statement from the Min ister of Emplo yment Services and Economic Securiy. HON. L. EV ANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my privilege today to present the 19 86-87 Estimates for the De partment of Employment Services and Economic Security for consideration by membe rs.

The De partment of Employme nt Services and Economic Security was established in November 1983, linking training, employment, social assistance and income supplement measures within a single department. This combination of programs and services is intended to promote economic growth and stability, to create jobs and improve the skills of the provincial work force while ensuring adequate basic income levels for Manitobans in financial need.

Improved access to jobs and training opportunities for all Manitobans, including those who might otherwise become dependent on social assistance, is a major objective of this department. The department's four main components are the Economic Security Division, the Employment Services Di vision, the Ma nitob a Bu reau of Statistics and Administration and Finance. In addition to its own programs, Employment Services and Economic Security administers and delivers several major Manitoba Jobs Fund programs.

The Economic Security Division's main functions are to maintain and supplement incomes for Manitobans in financial need. Effective July 1, 19 86, income supplement benefits to low income Manitobans age 55 and over were expanded thus fulfilling a campaign promise made by Premier Pawley during the recent Manitoba elec tion.

The Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners' Program is being replaced by a new program, "55-Plus, a Manitoba income supplement." 55-Plus differs from the Manitoba supplement for pensioners in the following critical aspects: (1) low income Manitobans 55 years of age and over whose income is within specified ranges now qual ify for benefits whether or not they have a pension income, (2) maxi mum quar terly benefits have been doubled, and (3) the benefits will be indexed annually.

About 5,600 more Manitobans will now qualify for full or partial benefits from the 65-Plus component, and an additional 3,700 persons are expected to qualify for the 55-plus component. The program's total budget will increase from about $3.3 million to $7.4 million in the current fiscal year. Under the Child Related Income Support Program of my department, monthly financial supplements are paid to low income famil ies to assist them with the cost of raising childr en.

As announced in the 1986 Manitoba Budget Address, coverage of this program is being expanded by raising the net asset limit from $50,000 to $200,000 effective in the 1986-87 program year. In addition, a special CRISP payment of up to $360 per child is being provided to low-income farm famili es this year. These measures extend monthl y benefits to approximately 1, 500 additional farm families and 40 additional self-empl oyed families. Furthermore, these same 1, 500 farm families along with 350 farm families, already in receipt of monthly benefits, are being provided with an additional special payment this year.

We anticipate that these inititatives will require an additional $2.5 million for CRISP and in 1986-87 with a further $79,500 required for salary and operating costs. Social assistance caseloads have in cr eased dramatically in Manitoba and other provinces in recent years, primarily because of high levels of unemplo yment throughout the country. Manitoba's social assistance caseload growth rate, however, has been below the national average increase and well below rates of increase in the rest of Western Canada.

The latest available statistics from Health and Welfare Canada, which report provincial caseloads to March 1985, indic ate Manitoba's social assistance caseload increased by 40.3 percent for March, 1981 to March, 1985. During the same period the number of social assistance cases for the country as a whole increased by 44 percent and the number of cases in Western Canada excluding Manitoba grew by over 95 percent. In terms of the percentage of population on social assistance, this province is well below the national average with 5.9 percent of this province's population 2ns

Monday, 11 August, 1986 comprised of social assistance recipients compared with 7.6 percent of the Canadian population. This rate is the third lowest of all provinces. I'm proud to say that, unlike some provinces which have introduced measures to tighten social assistance eligibility in order to dampen the growth of caseloads and expenditures, Manitoba has maintained the integrity of its income security system. Without restricting eligibi li ty, we have raised social allo wances rates to keep pace with the rising costs of basic necessities.

We have emphasized the development of innovative training and employment measures for social assistance recipients to help the move toward stable productive emplo yment. I will deal with some of these measures later in these remarks. I believe the vast majority of social assistance recipients would prefer to work to welfare if jobs and necessary social and employment support services were available to them.

Mani toba's Social Al lowances Program is one of the most generous "work incentive programs" in the country, exempting 30 percent of earned income and providing for such work-related expenses as travel costs, child care, and special clothing. I might add that the 30 percent exemption of earned income exceeds the 25 percent maxi mum exemption under the Canada Assistance Plan. Our exemption rate is al lowed under a "grandfather " provision.

In part because of our employment initiatives and annual increases in our social allo wance rates to reflect the rising costs of basic necessities, Manitoba has not been affected by the substantial national increase in proportion of Canadians below the poverty line in the 1980's. The most recent report of the National Council of Welfare, dealing with the incidence of poverty in this country, showed that from 1981 to 1984 the percentage of families in Manitoba living in poverty increased by only 0. 7 percent com pared to a 25 percent increase for all of Canada.

Manitoba improved its position among the 10 provinces from the fourth lowest to the third lowest proportion of families living below the poverty line. Looking at poverty among unattached individuals, Manitoba was one of four provinces to have a decrease in the percentage living in poverty. We will continue to maintain the in tegrity of Manitoba's income security programs. My department's Estimates provide for an incr ease in basic social allo wance rates to reflect increases in the cost of basic necessities. This increase was made effective in January 1986.

Automation of the Social Al lowances Program, which was initiated in 1982, is continuing. Implementation of the first phase - an automated central client registry and an improved auto mated payment system - was recently completed. The complete automated system will be developed and impl emented by the summer of 1987. Recently, I introduced Bill 31 to amend The Municipal Act to limit municipalities' use of liens to recover assistance from municipal welfare recipients.

At present, the Act considers municipal assistance to be a debt and allows muni cipa lities to register liens against recipients for the amount of assistance provided. The amended act will restrict municipalities' use of liens to the same exceptional circumstances permitted for the province's Social Al lowances Program; for example, when assistance is used to pay for major home repairs.

These changes, which had been discussed with municipalities during the past year by my colleagues, the Ministers of Municipal Affairs and Urban Affairs, will resolve significant inequities in assistance between municipalities and between the municipal and provincial social assistance tiers and will result in considerably fairer treatment of Manitobans in serious financial need. As well, the changes will ensure continued federal cost­ sharing under the Canada Assistance Plan. The Manitoba Go vernment's economic policies continue to stress the creation and preservation of employment opportunities.

Largely because of these efforts, provincial employment increased faster than the national average between 1981 and 1985, and Manitoba maintained one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. My department, through the Employment Services Div ision, pro vides the focus for the Prov in cial Government's labour force management activities aimed at; promoting long-term as well as temporary em ployment growth; faci li tating labour market adjustment; and developing to the full est, the employment potential of all Manitobans.

In fulfi lling this manda te, the Estimates of my department provide for the continuation of a number of highly successful ongoing initiatives, along with several new programs. These serve all Manitobans, especially youth, employment disadvantaged, and persons on social assistance. As I've already stressed, the Manitoba Government is firmly comm itted to providin g social assistance recipients with a wide range of opportunities to move from a position of dependency to self-sufficiency. My departm ent's budget pro vi des for seve ral innovative new programs to assist persons on social assistance.

The new Single Parents Job Access Program helps single parents, mainly women, to develop skills and gain work experience. The Job Access for Young Adults, a pilot project, is designed to provide unemplo yed young people, with less than a Grade 12 education, with training and work experience leading to permanent jobs. Both these programs are being jointly funded in this fiscal year by the Federal Government's Canadian Job Strategy.

My department hopes to conclude negotiations on an agreement with the Federal Departments of Employment and Immigration, and Health and Welfare, to further improve or expand opportunities for social allowance recipients to enhance their employabil ity.

The key elements of this agreement will likely include establishment of targets for social assistance recipients' participa tion in federal Canad ian Job Strategy Programs, federal supp ort for prov incial pilot/ demonstration projects and a new "fund diversion" mechanism to support employment programming for recipients using funds that would otherwise be spent on social assistance. Other training programs operated by my department for special needs individuals are being maintained.

These include the Selkirk Training Plant, the Human Resources Opportun ity Prog ram and the Hu man Resources Opportunity Centres and the New Careers Program. Despite declines in youth unemployment rates and the fact that Manitoba's youth unempl oyment rates are 2777

Monday, 11 August, 1986 considerably lower than in most other areas of Canada, my government is concerned that unemplo yment among young people remains unacceptably high. To further reduce the in cidenc e and severity of youth unemployment, Manitoba has made a commitment to develop effective training and job creation programming for youth.

Special opportunities for summer employment and work experience are being maintained through ongoing departmental initiatives such as the Student Temporary Emplo yment Program, sometimes called STEP, the Northern Youth Corps Program, Manitoba Youth Job Centres and the Job Opp ortunity Service. My department is admin istering the highly successful Careerstart Program this summer at 1985 levels. This program is funded under the Manitoba Jobs Fund, and it's proven to be a popular and effective job creation program for both businesses and young people.

My depar tment, through the Im migr ation and Settlement Branch, will continue to provide information and support to the formulation of provincial immigr ation policies, as well as the provision of settlement services and support for recent immigrants to help them maintain self-sufficiency and full participation in Manitoba society.

Two major programs in this area are: Immigrant Access Service, which provides better access and coordination of human services to immigr ants; and Prog ram Recog nition, a program funded under the Manitoba Jo bs Fund, designed to help immigr ants with professional and technical qualifications get Canadian accreditation.

In keeping with its lead role in managing Manitoba's overall job training strategy, my department has been negotiating, both bil aterally and in concert with other provinces, arrangements with the Federal Government to ensure that the Canadian Job Strategy will support Manitoba's training and job development thrusts. A number of very serious issues must be resolved before a new training agreement can be signed, not the least of which is an anno unc ed in tent by the Federal Government to reduce federal funding of direct training purchases for provincial commu nity colleges.

My department will be working towards the finalization of a satisfactory training agreement during the current fiscal year. Legislation was passed in July 19 85 to establish Manitoba's Workplace Innovation Centre, an arm's length agency to assist emp loyers and emp loyees in sharing the benefits and risks of technological change in the workplace. The centre has received a funding commitment of $1. 2 million from the Manitoba Jobs Fund for a three-year period. My department will maintain its key role in the coord ina tion and developmen t of the Ma ni toba statistical system and the provision of research support.

The Manitoba Bureau of Statistics is the provincial central agency operating under the terms of The Manitoba Statistics Act. The Bureau plans, promotes, develops and disseminates integrated social and economic statistics relating to the province on behalf of departments and agencies of government. The Manitoba Bureau of Statistics will continue to place increasing emphasis on cross-departmental statistics service and products and original data development and analysis. In conclusion, Mr.

Chairman, I would indicate that the total exp endi ture proposed in the spending Estimates for the Manitoba Emplo yment Services and Economic Security Department is $207,242,900.00. In addition, a number of programs in my department will be del ivered this year and will be funded by the Manitoba Jobs Fund. I've pro vide d you with a brief overview of my department's activities and the priorities that the department will pursue in 19 86-87. Before, closing, Mr. Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to thank our staff in the department for their dedication and their loyal service over the past year.

Also, I would like to note that we have a new Deputy Minister, Ms. Roxy Freedman. I'm very pleased that Ms. Freedman, who has spent many years in the Civil Service, including several years of service with our department, has replaced Mr. George Ford, who was promoted to be the Clerk of the Privy Council of the Cabinet. Mr. Chairman, I refer members of the committee to the 19 86-87 Spending Estimates of the department and look forward to the members' comments, questions and contributions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the Minister for his statement. We will be, as we proceed through the line-by-line look at these Estimates, we will be dealing with many of the topics that he raised during his opening remarks; so it wouldn't be necessary to remark on them at the moment. I would like to thank the Min ister for supplying a staffing list and program outline, as well as supplying the prelimi nary copy of the annual report. Of course, it's difficult to prepare for Estimates without a copy of the annual report, so I was glad that he did that for us and gave us a chance to have a look at it.

I understand the finished copy will be coming along shortly . As I went through the Estimates of this department, I was looking for several things. I was looking for an example of evidence of major change of programs; I was looking for major shifts in funding from one area to another and major infusions of funding in areas that perhaps needed it. As there's been considerable talk by the NO P Government members about - and I quote - "federal cutbacks," I looked for evidence of cutbacks in this department, in the federal portion of the appropriations.

No doubt, if I've missed some of them, the Minister will be pointing them out to me as we go along, but I didn't find that there were cutbacks. Instead, I noticed considerable evidence of federal funding with the Canadian Jobs Strategy, to name one, and with the Limestone Agreement with the Northern Emplo yment Support Services and things of that nature where, for instance, with the Northern Empl oyment Support Services, 18 million by the Federal Government and 12 million by the Provincial. But we'll discuss these programs as we go line by line.

I also found during my research some comparisons in payments to Manitoba from the Federal Government, from the Canada Assistance Plan and I'll just quote 2778

Monday, 11 August, 1986 some of these: for instance, in 1980-81 the Canada Assistance hel ped Welfare Services in Manitoba with 14.1 million; and in the year 19 86-87 it's estimated it will be 23.7, so they've been gradually rising as we go; there's steady growth in funds so we would suggest that's a far cry from a "cutback ". In the Task Force on Social Assistance which was dated September 19 83 there is stated and I quote: "The evidence gathered has led us to conclude that the Social Assistance system in Manitoba contains many features which cause it to fail to help recipients regain self-sufficiency.

Sign ificant improvement will require alteration of these features as aforementioned." So we'll be looking as we go along, to see what gains have been made in this department and the Min ister alluded to some of them in his opening remarks. Later we'll be asking the Mi nister what action he has taken to continue to make the system more efficient, to deal with the real needs of people and of course at the same time, protect the taxpayers who pay the bill. I'd like to request, Mr. Chairman, that you be quite flexible as we go from line to line. Sometimes we'll be apt to stray.

I think it would be easier if we, instead of dealing with 1. (a), 1. (

b) individually, we could deal with sections as a unit and maybe wander a little bit from salaries to other things that it's difficult to stay right on and restrict ourselves to absolute line by line. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's agreeable. No, no, I think the Minister has agreed that we can certainly be flexible as long as we stay within the same resolution. That's no problem. MRS. C. OLESON: Before we commence I'd like if the Min ister could indicate where we could discuss the Workplace Innovation Centre. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I'll let you know in a minute. MRS. C.

OLESON: Another thing, usually when I'm going through these Estimates, I find something that just doesn't conform to any line that I can point out and this one here is an Order-in-Council No. 85 1, dated July 24, 1985, that deals with monies given from this department to the receiver for the Lake Winnipegosis Development Corporation. I'm wondering where we could discuss that or is that something that we can discuss at this time. HON. L. EVANS: I think there is a place to discuss that, Mr . Chairman.

That relates to a special unemplo yment situation that was created in that area because of a reduction in the lum ber industry in that Lake Winnipegosis area. This would be under the Emp loyment section. However, just going back to your first question, the reason you don't see the Workplace Innovation Centre as a line here is because, and I'm going to check with staff, but I believe it's funded under the Manitoba Jobs Funds. MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, I know, but you're the Minister they report to. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that's true, but there's no expending line in the department on that account. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Would you be willing to discuss it under 3? HON. L. EVANS: We can discuss it, certainly. We can discuss it under 3 someplace. MRS. C. OLESON: Under 3? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Item 3 is Employment Services. It would seem to be appropriate, somewhere under 3. MRS. C. OLESON: That's fine. Then we're proceeding under Administration to (

b) Executive Support? MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you through with your introductory comments? MRS. C. OLESON: Yes I am. Sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. If the staff would like, they can come forward now. HON. L. EVANS: I fooled them. I didn't talk for an hour. MR. CHAIRMAN: Now we will proceed with Resolution 54, deferring Item 1. (

a) Min ister's Salary. Item 1. (

b) Executive Support - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The list of staff years provided by the Min ister shows eight staff years of executive support. Could the Minister tell us where these executives function in the department? We can see by the chart provided in the annual report where the Deputy Minister and two Assistant Deputies are located; where are the other five located, please? HON. L. EVANS: I gather the mem ber wants a breakdown of the eight people.

One is a special assistant to the Minister; one is an executive assistant to the Minister; one is the Deputy Minister; the other is an executive assistant to the De puty Minister; then a secretary to the Deputy Minister; and a secretary to the Minister; and clerical support in the Minister's office. MRS. C. OLESON: Are they all located in this building or is one of those assistants in Brandon? HON. L. EVANS: As was the case for the last several years. MRS. C. OLESON: Yes. All right, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: I'd just like to hear that again.

There's a special assistant in Winnip eg and an executive assistant in Winnipeg; these are to the Min ister? HON. L. EVANS: There's an executive assistant. Years ago, it used to be customary for executive assistants to always be in this office but over the years procedure has developed where executive assistants have been located in different regions of the province. My executive 2779

Monday, 11 August, 1986 assistant has been here for some years, in the Provincial Government. Let me put it this way: The executive assistant could be occupying an office here; that has been the case in the past as well. So whether he occupies an office here or there, it's still an office. MR. J. McCRAE: I'm not so concerned about where the executive and special assistants are located, Mr. Chairman, but as we go down the eight executive function positions, let me get it straight. There is one special assistant in Winnipeg; one executive assistant in Winnipeg; and one executive assistant . . . HON. L.

EVANS: One special assistant in Winnipeg; one executive assistant in Brandon. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (bX1)- pass; 1. (bX2)-p ass. 1. (

c) Research and Planning - the Mem ber for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Is the the same staff in that department, to the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman? There's an increase in the salaries of $38,000.00 there. HON. L. EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, we have the same number of staff. The increase is normal salary increases. I just might add, Mr. Chairman, if the member wanted, we could discuss the Workplace Innovation Centre here, if she wished, because that

section has been very much involved in helping organize it; otherwise we could discuss it under 3. MRS. C. OLESON: We'll discuss it here probably. Another thing, if the Minister could tell me of any specific research projects that are under way in this Research De partment, say anything to do with unemp loyed youth or any specific topic besides, as he did just indicate, the Workplace Innovation Centre is taking some of their time. HON. L. EVANS: There are a number of activities that the branch undertakes. Of course, it has the overall responsibility for designing and coordinating some of our program plans.

It prepares evaluations, assessments and follow-up reports with regard to the federal labour market and the income security programs. We monitor the monthly labour force statistics that come out, and we monitor any changes that the Federal De partment of National Health may bring forward under income security. They are involved in providing information on training and employment policy formulation to the Minister and the Deputy. They undertake various technical programs, technical assistance to various branches; do various kinds of internal branch research projects.

There are some very specific achievements I could refer to for 19 85-86. They, of course, are very much involved in preparing the Estimates - believe it or not that's a very lengthy process - and preparing the strategic planning processes. They coordinated the preparation of sessional briefing material and material for the annual Estimates review.

They prepare notes and research papers on labour market trends and forecasts; the training requirements for the Limestone construction project; research papers on federal funding levels for training and job creation; research analysis regarding adjustment measures for older wo rkers. They prepared the brief for the department and the Min ister to present to the Federal Unemp loyment Insurance Commission Inquir y, the Forget Commis sion. They've provi ded a paper suggesting employment measures to assist social assistance recipients. I could go on to various other reports prepared .

Usually whenever we're contemplating a change in a program, we ask the research people to assist us in analyzing what would be involved in the change, the cost involved and so on. There are a number of things that we are concerned with, obviously. We want to get as much as we can in federal support under the Canadian Jobs Strategy - the member alluded to some - and we are trying to evolve a cooperative arrangement in some other specific projects. The Research Branch would be involved in that.

We have undertaken a review of a federal proposal involving older workers adjustment, a problem with technological displacement of older workers, and they've done various evaluative studies and surveys on programs, such as, our Grads and Business Program, our youth job centres and the other major job programs in the department. I might take this opportunity to introduce the staff, Mr. Chairman. Of course, on my immediate right is my Deputy Minister, Roxy Freedman. We also have, on my right, Wes Henderson, who is the Executive Director of Administration.

Alongside of him is Gerry Bosma, the Director of Financial Services. Besides Gerry is Marty Billink off, who is the Director of this particular Research Branch that we'r e talkin g about at the moment; and Wayne Wedge of our Computer Services; and Keith Watts, Personnel. MRS. C. OLESON: So I take it from what the Min ister says that there are studies ongoing to project into the future what the job training needs will be, and the training programs are being tailored around these forecasts? HON. L. EVANS: As much as we can. We don't do a lot of general forecasting.

We rely on these various outside agencies, like the conference board of the Royal Bank and so on. There are all kinds of agencies that do forecasts. But for specific purposes, we might attempt to do some forecasting, such as, with Limestone projects. MRS. C. OLESON: As we all know, there's no point in training for jobs that will be non-existence when the training period is over. That's what I was trying to get at. I think we could pass that if my colleague has no questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Di d you want to bring up the . . . ? 2780

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON: Oh, sorry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Workplace Innovation Centre, thank you. An Order-in-Council of July 16, 19 86, No. 781, granted $360,000 to the Workpla ce Innovation Centre. Is that for this year's current operation? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that is correct. I'm not sure whether the entire amount will be utilized. It's taken a while to get the board of directors in place and they are now in place. In fact, they are now in the process of advertising for an executive director.

There have been advertisements pl aced in newspapers and they're in the process of interviewing people now. MRS. C. OLESON: Will that be the total monies that they are given this year, the 360, or did they get some money to start up prior to that? HON. L. EV ANS: We approved $40,000 in 19 85-86 and this year the allocation is the $360,000.00. MRS. C. OLESON: It has been predicted, or it was stated as one of the goals in the prelimi nary paper on this centre, that it was to become self-sufficient after three years. From what you can see now, is that an attainable goal? HON. L.

EVANS: Regrettably, we haven't had much experience with it. We haven't had any experience, really, of operation. So I would say it's still a hope. I couldn't go beyond that. MRS. C. OLESON: Has there been any change in the membership of the board since the annual report was printed? I notice that Mr. Ford, the former Deputy Min ister was on the board. Is he still on it? HON. L. EV ANS: We are in the process of making that change. Mr. Freed man will replace Mr. Ford on the board. MRS. C. OLESON: Pardon me? HON. L. EVANS: The new deputy will replace Mr. Ford on the board. MRS. C.

OLESON: Does the board have offices? I see by its expense account that they were paying rental for meeting rooms. Is there an official office and where is it? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, they have now just located at Colony Square and that is where their office is. MRS. C. OLESON: What sort of rent would be incurred there? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we don't have that information, but we can certainly check it out. MRS. C. OLESON: Has the centre commen ced any projects of specific nature?

Of course you wouldn't be free to answer if it was something for a private company, but have they involved themselves with any studies to date or are they still getting organized? 2781 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, regrettably, they're still getting organized. As I've said, once they get their executive director in place, I expect a lot of action at that point. MRS. C. OLESON: Will this show up in Estimates at all of this department? Seeing as they report to you, will they show up with the Jobs Fund Estimates in the future, or will it still be possible to talk about in this deparment?

I see that, and you referred to them today, they're an arm's length centre, but still they should be accountable to someone. Will it be this department? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, as far as we can perceive, they will continue to be responsible to this Minister and this department, but you are correct, the funding comes through the Manitoba Jobs Fund. MRS. C. OLESON: So, we could probably discuss them in that area, too, if we so desired. Okay, that's fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) - pass; 1. (c)(2)- pass. 1. (

d) Communications - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: I'll defer to the Member for Brandon West. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of qu estions about Communi cations. Is the Commun ications service, provided in the Min ister's department, broken up in any way between Employment Services and Economic Security? How is that function handled? HON. L. EVANS: We have one small Communications unit and it serves the entire department. MR. J. McCRAE: Does that work, Mr.

Chairman, on a matter of assignments given to the Communications Branch or department? In other words, does that branch respond to needs made known to the branch from other areas of the department? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it's a central agency serving the whole department. So whether we're talking about putting a new pamphlet out on 55-Plus, or whether it's something on Graduates in Business, they involve themselves with all aspects of the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1 )- pass; 1. (d)(2)-p ass. 1. (

e) Financial Admin istrative Services - the Member for Gl adstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does this department negotiate federal-prov incial funding, for instance, the training funds? HON. L. EVANS: No. MRS. C. OLESON: Do they do the negotiations? MR. CHAIRMAN: No.

Monday, 11 August, 1986 HON. L. EVANS: The short answer is no. MRS. C. OLESON: What do they do? - a short question. HON. L. EVANS: There is a great deal of activity that go es on here. They process and record all the departmental expenditur es and reve nues, all the financial services. In tact, they probably have one of the largest administrative loads in terms of pay out in the government because they processed the social allo wance accounts. These are paid out monthly, as you can appreciate, to 22,000 cases, approximately, and of course, they are involved in other special social allowance expenditures.

They provide ongoing budget analysis and monitoring of the expenditures of the deparment. They admin ister the cost-shared agreements between ourselves and the Federal Government or the munici palities. They generally administer social allowances, lien registry. They provide co ordina tion of central admin istrative functions, including the departmental vehicle fleet, communication, purchasing, office space. They administer the social allowances health services program.

They negotiate fee­ for-service agreements with various professional organizations which provide services under the Social Al lowances Health Services Program. Of course, because we cost-share welfare with the municipalities, they're invo lved in proces sing reports from municipa lities and preparing rebate payments under the municip al assistance. As a matter of fact, there are just hundreds of thousands of cheques and accounts that are administered by the branch. MRS. C.

OLESON: In that case, to the Min ister, who does negotiate with the Federal Government, for instance, for the Canada Assistance Plan and other training, other monies that this department gets? Which department does that? HON. L. EVANS: It's under the Employment Services side, under 3.(eX3), Intergovernmental Relations. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay, thank you. HON. L. EVANS: This is where we negotiate the National Training Agreement as well. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, I think we can pass that. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I think I heard the Min ister say that unde r this li ne, Fi nancial and Admin istrative Services, besides looking after, I suppose, the paycheques for the staff of the department which numbers around 900 people, there's also the Economic Security cheques and that type of service to be provided. Yet, when we go on further in the Estimates Book, we see under the headings of Economic Security and Em ployment Services head ings tor Administration, in the case of Economic Security, we have another 30 people and seven more in Employment Services. How do these functions overlap?

It appears like we've got almo st three bureaucracies in the one department. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the member referring to the salaries indicated in 2.(aX 1) ? MR. J. McCRAE: Yes. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we could elaborate when we get to that 2.(bX 1) , but the fact is that these people here provide the direct service. They provide the direct administration of the program, deciding what level of expenditure. Once they make these decisions, the pay out is exercised or occurs under Financial and Administrative Services. But we have to have staff to make decisions as to what level of welfare is to be paid out. MR.

J. McCRAE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1)-p ass; 1. (e)(2)- pass. 1. (

f) Personnel Services - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like the Minister to comment on how pay equity will affect this department. HON. L. EVANS: That is very difficult for me to . MR. CHAIRMAN: it appears we have a vote in the Chamber. The com mittee will take a recess to the Chamber. RECESS HON. L. EVANS: The question really can't be answered, because we're still in a very prelimi nary stage. We still are waiting for some guidelin es from the Civil Service Commi ssion. Some work has been done .

In the department, they're doing a bit of work, but it's still subject to a lot of further discussion, and also the MGEA have to be involved as well. So it's very prelimi nary, so I really couldn't answer the question. MRS. C. OLESON: You don't think then there'll be any wage adjustments have to be made this year, or would there be projections for wage adjustments next year? HON. L. EVANS: As I understand it, we're looking at one category called Financial Workers. We don't know whether they will be designated or not by the Civil Service Commission and the government. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, as I understand it, designation is what happens after the groups have been identified. Maybe the Minister knows which groups in his department have been identified to this stage. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm told we haven't been advised of the designations. MR. J. McCRAE: Has the Mini ster seen the Memorandum of Agreement between the Government of Manitoba and the Manitoba Government Employees' Association which identifies the various classes of emplo yees to be or not to be designated for pay equity adjustments? HON. L. EVANS: Well, the report was sent.

We've asked the staff to look at it, and that's about all that's 2782

Monday, 11 August, 1986 happened . There ha ve been no discussions leading to firm decisions. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, from here, from this Memorandum of Agreement I mentioned a moment ago, the Civil Service Commission will negotiate with the various bargaining groups or with one umbrella group, I'm not sure which, in the MGEA to decide which identified classes of empl oyees should receive adjustments. Will the Minis ter's department not be in fairly close touch with the Civil Service Commission as to which emp loyees will be included in this? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, the short answer is yes. We have had representatives from our Financial Workers category enter into discussions with the Civil Serv ice Comm ission pe ople. Mr . Chairman, as I understand, they've simply been asked to go and discuss their series with the Civil Service Commission. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Memorandum of Agreement sets out female-dominated classes as well as male-domi nated classes.

The emphasis of the pay equity legislation in this province seems to be on female­ dominated classes but, you know, discrimination or job discrimination is discrimination whether it's against a female or a male. I wonder if this is also in the minds of those people in the department who have authority over these matters. HON. L. EV ANS: I'm advised the emphasis is on females to date in our department. There is another area, of course, entirely separate from this but still related to perhaps the same objective, and that's the Affirmative Action Program.

The department's been very invol ved in providing opportunities for various disadvantaged groups as well as to ensure there are opportunities for women. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, just on the Affirmative Action thrust, as I understand it, the target groups are females, Natives and handi capped people a'IJ"b le mi nori ties. Has the department any targets for achievement over the next few years, and has it had such targets over the last few years, and how has the performance been? Has the department been able to live up to its own expectations in the last year, let's say? HON. L.

EV ANS: Generally speaking, yes, we do have targets. We've had a lot of success in achieving targets. As a matter of fact, I believe that we have, in terms of female opportunities, well exceeded expectations. We do have specific targets; we are working towards them. In regard to women in particular, I might add that during the past year there have been many females promoted, so mu ch so that today we have 25 management positions currently occupied by women. MR. J. McCRAE: Out of how many? HON. L. EVANS: Out of 66. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, do I understand that the target for women is 50 percent? HON. L.

EVANS: I should point out that 66 percent of our staff are women, of the entire staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the question was, what is the target? Was the question, what is the target for the management group of those 66 people? The Mem ber for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned the management side of it and said that of 66 people 25 were women. That perhaps the Minister would like to clar ify. HON. L. EVANS: Of the total staff in the department, 66 percent are women. This is a reasonable objective, to get 50 percent as a target. MR. J. McCRAE: Fifty percent, Mr.

Chairman, of the staff is a fine target, and if that's what we're after, we've certainly exceeded it in terms of the number of people in the department; but in the various job classifications, I think I heard the Minister make a comment a few moments ago about the management levels of the department. I must have misheard the Minister or . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: If I can clarify it, I think what the Min ister said is 50 percent of the management people is the target for that group of people. MR. J. McCRAE: Okay, and my question is, how are we doing in the management group? HON. L.

EVANS: I'm advised that 39 percent of the management group are now women. MR. J. McCRAE: Can we compare that 39 percent, Mr. Chairman, and maybe we should be fair and compare it with, perhaps, over the last five years, as opposed to what was the percentage last year? Has the Min ister that kind of information available? HON. L. EVANS: We don't have it immediately available. Obviously we can have it, if the member is interested, but it has been an increasing percentage. I can say that safely. MR. J.

McCRAE: I think with the thrust being what it has been over the last few years, I should expect that to be the result, Mr. Chairman. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I wouldn't mind getting that information from the Min ister, if he could give me some kind of detail in respect to various levels in his department and let me have information respecting the four target groups, just something that would give me an idea of whether we're making progress with this, because if we're not making progress, then what's all that money going for in these various groups? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, we'll undertake to get that.

It may take a couple of days, but we'll get it. MR. J. McCRAE: That would be fine; I'd appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: Pass. 2783

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)( 1) - pass? The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I do have another subject matter to discuss under Personnel Services, and that is the Auditor-General's recommendation to the Civil Service Commission was that performance appraisals were a very useful method in government of motivating staff and also boosting morale in the workplace. I wonder if this department has any co mmitment or what its pol icy is respecting performance appraisals. HON. L. EVANS: We have had performance appraisals in the past two years.

We've now covered all of the Economic Security staff, about 200 positions. We have a large number being covered by Employment Services. I don't have the number, and we're moving on some of the other categories as well, so we're well on the way. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, does this policy . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could just interrupt for a second, could the member speak up a bit? It's difficult to hear because of the fans here. The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: I see the Mini ster's fans are here, but mine aren't, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, respecting the performance appraisals, does the Minis ter's answer refer to the whole department from the top down, starting let's say with the Deputy Minister and on down to the, I suppose, the junior levels of the service? HON. L. EVANS: I'm advised that we have them for the lower and middle categories. This is where the bulk of people are, of course. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I strongly recommend to the Minister that he consider seriously the notion or the polic y, performance appraisal for all emp loyees.

I'm talking now from my own experience at City Hall in Brandon, where the idea was put into place a couple of years back and it has tremendously positive results and the senior personnel at the city have responded very well to the idea. Once it's explained, the idea goes over very well and the results are very positive at all levels, and I strongly suggest to the Minister that he consider it for all levels of his department. HON. L. EVANS: It's a commendable suggestion. MR. J. McCRAE: And it's a suggestion, Mr. Chairman, made also by the Provincial Auditor. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1)- pass; 1. (f)(2)-pass. 1. (

g) Systems and Computer Support Services - the Mem ber for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Min ister, in his opening remarks, dealt with the Computer Services. I just ask - I don't remember from his remarks - when he has targeted to get everything into the computer program? HON. L. EVANS: I would think it would take about another year before we're comple te, but some of it is in place. You can go to our offices now and see some of the software in pla ce, so most of the work has been done, but it might take another year before it's final. This is a very, very large project.

It's probably the largest project un dertaken in the Manitoba Government Service, as I'm advised, and it'll have a very significant impact, in terms of service to the clientele, in terms of our own control and in terms of getting data for polic y analysis. It'll be great. MRS. C. OLESON: How many computer programmers do you have working on that project? HON. L. EV ANS: We have 11 technical people. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay. I'm ready to pass that item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)(1)- pass; 1. (g)(2)-pass. We now move to Resolution No. 55, Item 2. Economic Securi ty, 2. (

a) Admini stration - the Memb er for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Under Salaries there is a difference of $76,000.00. Can the Minister explain that? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, those are miscellaneous items - general pay increases, reclassification and that sort of thing. The same number of staff is involved. MRS. C. OLES ON: Un der (a)(2), what does the difference of over $1 million - what does that increase reflect? HON. L. EVANS: This is the automation project itself; the 11 technical people and other costs, the rental of 14 terminals and other equipment. MRS. C.

OLESON: So that shows up in this department as opposed to, of course, under the line for Computer Programming? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it shows up here because it is still in the process of development. MRS. C. OLESON: I see, okay. Now, under the Social Services Advisory Committee, how many appeals did this comm ittee hear last year and can you give me some statistics as to their disposition and what appeals they were, like in which category? HON. L.

EVANS: Okay, in'85-86 there were 383 appeals; 12 0 related to Municipal Assistance, 232 to our Social Allowance Program, and 26 related to day care centres - the level of subsidization of day care centres. This is beyond our department, of course - one regarding the licensing of a day care centre and four regarding licensing of residential care facilities. MRS. C. OLESON: Now this Residential Care Facilities, do these include the small guest homes plus large care facilities? 2784

Monday, 11 August, 1986 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it would. They are funded, of course, under the Department of Community Services, of course unless the recipients are on social allowances, but the program itself is under Community Services but it's just deemed advisable or convenient to use the same board for this purpose as for the welfare appeals. This is a small percentage of their work. MRS. C. OLESON: Wha t authority do es this department have over these home s sinc e your department does have some input with funds because a lot of the people in them will be on social assistance? What jurisdiction do you have?

I know you don't license them but do you have any input as to the rules and regulations and regular medical check-ups of the individuals, that sort of thing? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we are not involved at that at all. I'd point out that of the total number of people in these various residential care facilities, the majority are not social allowance recipients. There are a number, but they are not the majority. We don't have any administrative responsibilities. MRS. C.

OLESON: One thing I find very difficult about finding out information about these homes is that there are at least three departments of government that have input into them and it seems I have difficulty tracking it down; I'm sure the people involved must have trouble tracking it down, because some person licenses them, another pays some bills, and another decides what level of care the people will have.

It must be terribly difficulty for anyone who is trying to operate one of these homes to have this - (Interjection) - if you wanted to complain about them, what department do you go to because they would send you from one to the other like they have me. HON. L. EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Community Serv ices is responsible for licensing and generally oversees the programs of these group homes. MRS. C. OLESON: Now with the Social Serv ices Advisory Committee, I would like the Mi nister to outline for me the function with regard to appeals.

For instance, does the person that's making the appeal come before the committee and plead their own case or can they write a letter to the comm ittee or is the person allowed to have one speak for them? HON. L. EV ANS: We would expect the individual to appear in person. That individual could have a lawyer or someone else speak for himself or herself. MRS. C. OLESON: Is it possible when a person has a language problem that you find someone that they can speak and interpret to the committee, for instance? HON. L. EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, yes that would be arranged if that was necessary to ensure that justice be done.

I haven't heard of that being a problem so I gather satisfactory arrangements are being made. MRS. C. OLESON: One complaint I've had from people who've phoned me is that once the appeal is over - and in other matters to do with social allowances, too - they don't have any clear picture of why they were turned down or why such-and-such a decision was made. There seems to be a lack of commu nication from what I've been told - now, whether this is fair or not, I don't know - that they don't quite understand what is happening to them in a lot of cases. HON. L. EVANS: Wel l, Mr .

Chairman, the board is supposed to give reasons to the individual of why they made one decision or the other.

Having said that, we are looking at some kind of a procedure where we might, before the person goes to the board, try to sit down and review their case, not to suggest that we don't have to go to the board or that they shouldn't go to the board for an appeal - they certainly can and we don't discourage that - but in some cases, it's been suggested to us for instance by the Antipoverty Association and the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties that there should be some kind of a process whereby we provide them with more information and a bit of counselling, maybe preceding a board hearing.

In some cases it may not require a board hearing. MRS. C. OLESON: That is what I was going to say. In many cases . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me for one second. Could the members either limit the conversations around the table or move them to the rear please. Thank you - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Now I lost my train of thought, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: You were asking about appeals. MRS. C.

OLESON: No, I say the Minister made a point that he wouldn't try to deter them from going to appeal but this could very well have the result if there were discussions beforehand that there would be no need of an appeal. Also could the Minister tell me, one recommendation of that Task Force report was that there be people who were social assistance recipients or an advocacy group representative on that committee. Could the Minister comment on that and if that has been done? HON. L.

EVANS: Well, with regard to the first item, I'm glad the member agrees with me that maybe the individual wouldn't have to go to the board on a formal appeal basis if there was some prior consultation. It's something like the pre-trial mediation that apparently seems to work or does have a positive role. We're looking at that right now in response to a request by MARL and the anti-poverty organization. So far, I don't believe any of the members of the Appeal Board have been welfare recipients, but I'm not totally certain of that.

We could look into that, but I haven't consciously followed that recommendation to put in somebody who was a welfare recipient on the board. MRS. C. OLESON: We can pass that section. 2785

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)(1 )- pass; 2. (a)(2)- pass; 2.(a)(3)- pass. 2.(

b) Social Allowances Programs, Social All owances - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Mi nister gi ve a breakdown of the categories, or people that are on social assistance? I'm thinking of, for instance, the Welcome Home Program, people in that category; childr en in provincial care. Now does that include childr en who are in care of foster parents, and people with physical disabilities, spouses' allowance, elderly, mental, just give a breakdown of what categories receive social assistance? HON. L. EV ANS: Mr.

Chairman, in 1986-87 - now this is an estimate of course because the year isn't complete - but according to our caseload experience so far, we have approximately 22,900 cases, that's the average monthly social allowance caseload. Of that, 8,490 are considered to be Mother's All owance cases; we have 11 5 Father's Allo wances, if you recall the legislation on that. Those who are aged, namely, 65 and over, we have 1, 240. That number has come down dramatically in the last few years because of changes in federal pension legislation.

Disabled makes up the single largest category, 10,235; Children, 450; General Assistance, 1, 490. This would be people in remote communities where there is no organized munici pality and where we serve really as the municipal welfare office, in effect. Students, 865, we I think are one of the few provinces that have a program to encourage welfare recipients to upgrade their education, so that they can become independent, so we have 865 in that category; and 15 under Other, which includes certain special dependent care cases. MRS. C.

OLESON: When the Min ister mentions students, is this a high school student, for instance, or could he specify? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, these primarily are single parents who are getting basic adult education, they're more or less upgrading themselves. A lot of mothers who are wanting to improve their education so that they could become independent. MRS. C. OLESON: Now this

section - just a minute while I gather myself together here. We could talk about property liens and that sort of thing in this section, too, couldn't we? HON. L. EV ANS: The more appropriate one is Item 3, where we're into Municipal Welfare. That's where the liens are, most of the property liens are. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay. The Minister mentioned, just a few moments ago, the Association of Rights and Liberties meeting, and I see there was another note in the Paper, in the Letter to the Editor about it today.

The question there was the way that studies are made of people's private lives, to determine whether they need social assistance or not, and of course it's a difficult problem because you have to be sure you're giving need where it's really needed and you have to protect the taxpayer. The Min ister said, having listened to these people, that he was going to study it and bring forth a report. What has he done in that regard? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, since that meeting I've asked staff to prepare a report for me.

I'm advised that work is ongoing but I won't have the report com pleted for another three or four weeks. We're looking at procedures in other provinces to see whether we can perhaps make some changes so that we meet the criticisms that have been levied. But, as the member suggested, it's a difficult area, very difficult. MRS. C. OLESON: When the Minister says he's looking at other provinces, is he looking at the Province of Quebec. They went on some sweep and saved a considerable amount of money. I wonder if he's going to be as - I won't use the word "vicious," but I think it was a little bit much. HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we have no intention of establishing new welfare police force. MRS. C. OLESON: One complaint I've had from people who call me when the department does decide, by some means or other, that they are not eligible and cut them off social assistance, that the first indication they have is when they look for their cheque and it isn't forthcoming. Is there some way that the recipients could be informed of this because it is quite a shock when they are on assistance and then suddenly are terminated and no reason given? HON. L.

EVANS: Well I hope it isn't the case that they only find out when they don't get a cheque, because they are supposed to be told. Staff is instructed that they must advise the client of any cutback or any elimin ation of payment. We are monitoring it. I think with the automation system, we may be in a better position as well to be more efficient in this respect. MRS. C.

OLESON: When there is a dispute and the recipient is cut off assistance and is in the appeal process, are there any funds going to them at that time, or are they cut off compl etely until the appeal takes place, and they're reinstated, if that is the decision? HON. L. EV ANS: If there's a basis for terminating payments, it is made right away; but if there is a special circumstance, if they can indicate that it is going to cause a lot of grief and hardship, certainly we would take a com passionate approa ch. But normally a decision is made and then they go to the Welfare Appeal Board. MRS. C.

OLESON: Is there a mechanism in the department for people who need emergency assistance? I've had calls like that and I've called your office on a couple of different occasions for someone who is in desperate need and isn't able to make an appointment for an assessment till the next week and so forth; is there anything to help tide them over that period. HON. L. EVANS: Normally the municipality is at the front line, so the munici pality is supposed to make this 2786

Monday, 11 August, 1986 emergency pa yment, but where there isn't any municipality existing, or there are no municipal officials, we will and we do provide emergency monies. MRS. C. OLESON: Back to the visiting of recipients, I see by the booklet on social allowances, it says that you will make a visit every one or two years. Is that foll owed up closely? Or how often on the average are the recipients visited by their worker? HON. L. EVANS: It's becoming difficult because with the increased caseload and without a corresponding increase in staff, it's been difficult. But we certainly see them at the beginning.

In the case of Mothers' Allo wances, we probably see them at least once a year but some categories we may not, depending on the category. I mean, if you're dealing with somebody, say, an aged person or somebody whom you know is very physically handicapped, a wheelchair case and has been for years and there's been no difficulty, there's not the same need for us to sort of monitor. Mind you, they can always come to us for special needs or a review of their case; though there's nothing preventing them from coming to us. So we mon itor to a different degree, depen din g on the category. MRS. C.

OLESON: The Manitoba An ti-Poverty Organization, what funding does this department give them? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we do provide a grant to that organization. I'll try to get you the exact number. It's $33,300.00. MRS. C. OLESON: Does this group receive any funding from departments other than this one in the government? HON. L. EVANS: It has, I understand, for the last couple of years received money from the Core Area agency. Whether they're going to get re-funded again this fall, we're not sure. We don't know yet. MRS. C.

OLESON: With regard to the task force report, can the Min ister giv e us an upda te on what recommendations of the report you've put into practice, and what you're considering in the future? HON. L. EV ANS: We have a list here we can refer to, but I can mention two that come to mind. One is the sole support father recom mendation, sole support parent, to avoid discrimination against men who, for whatever reason, choose to raise their children. That was one. The other was the automated system, I believe, and that of course is well under way, costing a lot of money, but we believe it's money well spent.

The other one, overpayment recovery policies, we've changed that - this was mentioned in the task force - so that overpayments due to administrative errors to which the recipient has no way contributed are no longer recovered. In other words, if the department made the mistake, we no longer will - I think the member may have suggested that herself last year. MRS. C. OLESON: I don't recall, but I know I've had considerable discussion with various recipients on the telephone over the years. HON. L. EVANS: So at least we've done that. That was referred to.

Fourthly, we've taken steps to improve the equity between the provincial and municipal levels of assistance. Prim arily we are now moving on the elimi nation of the liens placed by municipalities with the objective of considering it as a debt payment. Finally , we have undertaken a lot of study regarding options to move to a one-tier system. We haven't impl emented anything but it's not for lack of desire, it is a very, very expensive exercise.

We could be looking at, if we did it entirely, an increase in expenditure of nearly $25 million in one year and regrettably that wouldn't necessarily put more money into the pockets of the welfare recipients. What it would do is essentially - not entirely - but essentially take the burden off the municipal taxpayers' shoulders and put them on the shoulders of the provincial taxpayers. It would be essentially a transfer.

But as indicated in that letter to the editor, I've suggested to the Anti-Poverty Organization and to MARL that one way of moving is to look at the rural scene and elimi nate the one-tier system in rural Manitoba, because that wouldn't be nearly as expensive inasmuch as 80 percent of the municip al welfare expenditures are in the City of Winnipeg. So at any rate, that was one of the major recommendations. Then in addition there was a whole level of miscellaneous admin istrative changes that they recommended which we have brought in as well. MRS. C.

OLESON: The Minister said that under the one-tier system he thought it would be an increase of $25 million. Am I stating that correctly? Where does he see that occurring? Is it in staffing, for instance? HON. L.

EVANS: That's based on the assumption, and I think it's a rather valid observation, that our rates are higher than most rural municipal rates; and secondly, based on the assumption that we will probably get a higher caseload than a lot of the rural municipalities, this is regrettable, but often what happens - but I don't have any documentation and I have been told this by some ind ividuals though - that they have been encouraged by the rural municipality to go to Winnip eg to get welfare or to go to Brandon, but don't stay in our R.M. because we haven't got the money to help you.

Now that's regrettable and that's really contrary to the spirit of the whole thing, but it does happen. We think that if we moved into the rural areas of Manitoba, let's say, leaving the City of Winnipeg and Brandon and Portage, etc., aside for a moment, that we would likely get an increased caseload. So that's the reason for our estimates, plus a bit more salary. But essentialy , it would be the assistance. The assistance would be $22 million, $23 million additional. Excuse me, I'm sorry. That would include the City of Winnipeg of course.

If we only included the rural municipalities, you'd only be taking 20 percent of that, let's say, maybe less than 20 percent. You'd be looking at $4 million or $5 million. 2787

Monday, 11 August, 1986 MRS. C. OLESON: Does the Minister think there would need to be much increase in staff to handle the system if they went to the one-tier in the country? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. If we did the entire province including Winnipeg, we'd be looking at well over 100 additional staff. There's a large staff in the City of Winnipeg right now handling this. There are 200-plus in the City of Winnipeg handling it now. We're assuming that if we took it over, we'd do it for 100, 11 0, maybe 120 staff for the entire province, including Winnipeg. MRS. C. OLESON: The structure is in place in Winnipeg though.

I mean, it wouldn't be a complete replacement. HON. L. EVANS: I'm just suggesting if you totally took it over; I'm not saying that would necessarily happen. If you wanted to involve Winnipeg, you might involve an agreement, a contract with the city that they administer it and you're responsible for the total pay out but you contract with their staff. Whether that's a good way of doing it or not, I'm not sure, but that's one possibili ty. MRS. C. OLESON: Is rent rebate paid to people on social assistance who are renting and, if so, is it deducted from their social assistance? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I understand legally they can get it but we also advise it's a very small number who receive benefits and we don't move on that; we just leave it as it is. MRS. C. OLESON: I wonder, has the Minister had an opportunity to look at the Social Assistance Program that they put in Saskatchewan recently, the last couple of years. They went into a highly intensive assessment and training program, as I understand it, which is working very well. I was just wondering if the Minister has taken a look at it. HON. L. EVANS: I've read a couple of articles, Mr.

Chairman, but I haven't studied it in any detail so I'm really not familiar with their new system. MRS. C. OLESON: As I say, they went heavily into - from what I can read of it - an assessment. I think it took a lot of staff initially, from what I can figure out, but they did a personal assessment of most of their recipients to see what training and what help would put them back to work, assuming that everyone wants to work. Of course, that's not possible; they wouldn't be assessing someone who had a disabil ity that completely prevented them from working. I understand it is working quite well.

They, as I say, took the approach that everyone wants to work, and worked from there. They also did something a little different which, I guess, caused considerable criticism in some quarters, but for people who were on a short-term basis of assistance, say, young people who wouldn't necessarily be on very long, just on an interim, they didn't pay them as high a cheque, for instance, each month as they would someone who Is long-term because they have different needs than someone who is just on as a temporary measure. Has that been considered here? HON. L.

EV ANS: First of all, you'll find that the Saskatchewan Government is responsible for all social assistance, all welfare, so they have a one-tier system. They are more involved with the young people who are the unemplo yed employables, who may be in the unemp loyed employable category. Our situation is different, very basically, on that account. We have looked at and indeed we are hoping to sign an agreement with the Federal Government to tap into some of the diversion funds that have now been set aside.

There's $10 0 million per year set aside through Canada Emplo yment and Immigration as a so-called diversion fund to be utilized to provide job opportunities for welfare recipients. I might point out that about a year-and-a-half ago, Manitoba took the lead in suggesting that diversion fund and they actually adopted our idea. We're not the first to sign the agreement; I think Saskatchewan has signed an agreement, and B.C. We hope to sign an agreement soon whereby we wou ld provide job opportunities for people without being penalized.

You see, in the past, there was a possibility of losing the 50-50 cost-sharing with the Federal Government. So what we're hoping to achieve is to not lose that 50- 50 cost-sharing, indeed, get federal assistance to provide funds to open employment opportunities for a certain category of people that could benefit from this. Having said that, as I pointed out in my opening remarks, we do allow people to keep up to 30 percent of their income without penalty, which is the highest amount in Canada.

In addition - this is in a different part of these Estimates - we have many, many programs to get the structurally unemployed into the work force. It's a very difficult task but we are spending probably more money per capita than any other province in that kind of thing. MRS. C. OLESON: The Minister had put out a couple of press releases last fall concern ing the Unemplo yment Help Centre in Brandon. I noticed in one of them, it refers to the Winnipeg Unemp loyed Help Centre. Is that under this department also? HON. L. EVANS: That, Mr. Chairman, would be under the Employment side.

There are grants provided, but not under the Economic Security side. MRS. C. OLESON: We'll maybe discuss it under that. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, under 2.(b)

(2) Health Services, for dental, drug and optical needs, are services like that available under the munici pal welfare operations? HON. L. EVANS: I understand there are some limi ted services provided in Winnipeg but, generally, not to the same extent as the province does. We're not sure that any other municipalities provide that. It's essentially a provincial program. MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister said that there was some provision of those services in Winnipeg, under the municipal plan. I'm wondering if those health services are reflected in line 2.(b)(3) under the global Municipal Assistance line of the Estimates? 2788

Monday, 11 August, 1986 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, the City of Winn ipeg, I understand, is essentially into dental services and we would cost-share that amount under the 50-50 formula. MR. J. McCRAE: Just so that I understand, that would be included in the $37,250,000 number in line

(3) Municipal Assistance? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. McCRAE: Also, Mr. Chairman, the administration of the Municipal Assistance is included in the $37 million figure, or is the administration paid for strictly by the municipalities? HON. L. EV ANS: We cost-share administrative costs, as long as it's designated under the Canada Assistance Program. They would be either designated welfare workers, then we can cost-share, and we do. MR. J. McCRAE: That also is included, then, in the line

(3) Municipal Assistance? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that's my understanding. MR. J. McCRAE: The thing that is interesting to me, and maybe the Minister can help me with this, but the social allowances, providing of financial assistance, the increase in the appropriation is somewhere around 20 percent for provincial welfare. At the municipal level - now, that includes whatever provision of health services there are, and admin istration - the increase there appears to be only, if my arithmetic is right, and don't trust my arithmetic, Mr. Chairman - it looks like about 6 percent or so to me.

I just wonder, is there some reason, some more demand under the provincial program than the municipal ones. What would the reason be for the smaller increase, considerably smaller increase on the municipal assistance side? HON. L. EVANS: These are, Mr. Chairman, the best estimates of the department. We're forecasting some reduction. There has been some reduction and we're forecasting some additional reduction in the caseload, in the municipal level, remembering that the bulk of the municipal level is unemployed employables. As the unem ployment rate is improved, there is a lessening pressure in that area,

whereas in the provincial caseload we have the long-term people, the disabled, the aged, the Mothers' Allowances. That would explain, I think, why we've come up with a lower estimate for the municipal increase. MR. J. McCRAE: Those appropriations are based on economic projections, which tell the Min ister and his depar tment that une mp loyment in Manitoba will continue to decline or employment will continue to increase, thereby making larger increases unnecessary. HON. L. EVANS: Forecasting, Mr.

Chairman, is one of the most difficult things to do but there has been some easing of the unemp loyment situation and that reflects our whole - but of course if it comes about that let's say next winter for whatever reason, there's a major economic recession in the country, and there's a big increase in unemployment, we still have the obligation to pay it and we have to come back and get some supplementary supply. MR. J. McCRAE: The money has to come from somewhere. I suppose it was just