May

21, 2008

Government

Services Committee

The Committee met at 8:30 a.m. in the House of Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (French): Good morning, folks.

At last, we are all together here for the start of the Committee.

I guess we will start off by the Committee introducing itself, and then the

minister can introduce his staff. Then I will call the subhead and you can bring

opening remarks, Minister. Then we will start with questions.

Is everybody okay with that?

We will start with Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Good morning.

Yvonne Jones, the District of Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MS BUCKLE: Joy Buckle, researcher.

MS E. MARSHALL: Beth Marshall, MHA, Topsail.

MR. FORSEY: Clayton Forsey, Exploits.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, St. John's East.

MR. VERGE: Wade Verge, Lewisporte District.

CHAIR: Okay, Minister, if you could introduce your staff?

MR. HICKEY: Thank you, and good morning.

To my left is Rob Coombs, Deputy Minister for the Department of Labrador and

Aboriginal Affairs. To my right is Assistant Deputy Minister Ron Bowles for the

Department of Labrador Affairs.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much.

I just ask one thing for the recording people, if you could say your name if

you are responding to a question.

We will start. As you know, we have done the Aboriginal Affairs piece, and

now we are going to do the Labrador Affairs piece, so I will call subhead

2.1.02.

If the minister wants to make some opening remarks, please do so.

MR. HICKEY: Good morning.

I am the Minister of Labrador Affairs, and I am pleased to appear before you

to discuss the Estimates of the Labrador Affairs Branch of the Department of

Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

This department is unique in that nearly all of its activities, including

land claims negotiations and implementation of the Northern Strategic Plan for

Labrador, require collaboration with other provincial public bodies as well as

Aboriginal peoples, governments of Canada, and certainly our own.

For the fiscal year 2008-2009, major initiatives identified in the grants

section include: $275,000 to purchase a new trail winter groomer for Postville;

$200,000 for enhancement of the winter trails on the North Coast; and $20,000 to

increase funding to the Combined Councils of Labrador, for a total investment of

$120,000.

Mr. Chairman, I am now available to discuss the details of the Estimates

Committee.

CHAIR: Thank you, Sir.

I guess we will start off with Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Minister, and good morning to your officials.

I am going to start right on the Labrador Affairs

section 2.1.02., only in

the interest of time because there are certain things I want to get through with

regard to the estimate piece.

Under Salaries we have seen, I guess, an increase in what was budgeted last

year but we also see an increase in what is budgeted this year. I am wondering

if you can give me an explanation why the numbers have increased this year over

last year, and also what the extra expenditure would have been last year. I

think it is a difference of something like almost $50,000 budgeted this year

over and above last year.

MR. HICKEY: Certainly, as you know, after the big win that we had in

Labrador in the last election we now have two ministers in the Cabinet and, of

course, we have certainly ratcheted up our support for both the Aboriginal

Affairs sector and the Labrador Affairs sector of the department.

Over the last number of years we have increased our staff, because certainly

when we took over in 2003 all that was left of that department was basically a

skeleton from the previous Administration. We have now upped the support staff.

How many do we have now in Happy Valley-Goose Bay? Fifteen?

OFFICIAL: Just about fifteen.

MR. HICKEY: Fifteen people, support staff, and also we have an equal

number here in St. John's with the Aboriginal Affairs Department. Certainly,

once we increase our staff and the support, obviously the salary increases would

also follow that.

MS JONES: Can you tell me, then, under 2.1.02., which was my question,

section 01. Salaries, why there is an increase of nearly $50,000 this year?

MR. HICKEY: Could you ask that question again, please?

MS JONES: Yes.

Under

section 2.1.02., my original question was under 01. Salaries - which

deals directly with Labrador Affairs and not Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs

Executive Support but deals directly with Labrador Affairs - there was an

increase in Salaries for this year of $45,000. Is that another new position that

has been created, or what would contribute to the increase?

MR. HICKEY: Let me say again, as I stated earlier, we needed support. In

the 2007-2008 you will find that we have revised the funding there to reflect

the position of development program co-ordinator, and that was a position that

we created there to support our operations.

If my memory serves me correctly here, we also - that program co-ordinator,

just to clear the record there, is to look after some programs such as the

Labrador Winter Trails. The other thing was, while we did increase that

position, we also did not fund a position for secretarial support for the

assistant deputy minister. So, we felt that the position would be better

utilized. We had some issues with the Labrador Winter Trails last year, as far

as keeping track of the operation, so that is sort of one of the reasons why we

have seen an increase in the budget.

MS JONES: You said you have fifteen staff in your department in Goose

Bay. Can you give me the breakdown of those positions, please?

MR. HICKEY: You go ahead there, Ron.

MR. BOWLES: We have a deputy minister, assistant deputy minister,

director, four analysts, three main support, a communications specialist, and

the program co-ordinator as the minister just spoke about. That would be a total

of twelve. Then you also have the minister located there, the secretary,

executive assistant and constituency assistant, for a total of four. Sixteen

would be the exact total.

MS JONES: Your responsibility, Mr. Bowles, is that just to Labrador

Affairs or to Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs?

MR. BOWLES: Labrador Affairs.

MS JONES: The position of the Premier's office, that doesn't fall

under your directorship within that department?

MR. HICKEY: Any questions regarding the Premier's office, you need to

ask those to the Premier's office. The Premier's office in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay comes under the direction of the Premier's office here in St.

John's

MS JONES: Just a simple question: Do they fall under your auspices or

directly under the Premier's office?

MR. HICKEY: The Premier's office operates separately from the

Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs.

MS JONES: They are just housed in your building.

MR. HICKEY: They are just housed in the Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs

building in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MS JONES: Okay.

Under the same heading 03., Transportation and Communications, last year you

spent $34,000 over what you had budgeted for transportation and communications.

Can you tell me what that was spent on?

MR. HICKEY: Travel.

MS JONES: Travel where? Doing what?

MR. HICKEY: As you would know, coming from Labrador, we have to fly back.

You have two ministers now from Labrador, so the travel obviously - we have to

travel back and forth between St. John's and the office.

The other thing that you should know is that the Minister of Labrador

Affairs, the Minister's Office is situated in Happy Valley-Goose Bay for

Labrador.

MS JONES: Minister, you should know that the estimate I am asking about

has nothing to do with the minister's office. It has to do with the support

staff within the department, and it has nothing to do with Aboriginal Affairs.

My question is on

section 2.1.02., heading 03., Transportation and

Communications, which pertains to the bureaucracy of that department, and they

overspent last year by $34,000. I would like for you to account for that money.

MR. HICKEY: Well, I can only say to you, that money was spent in travel.

I don't have to tell you - you should know - that travel has increased to and

from Labrador certainly over the last two or three years. That means that since

our department is stationed in Labrador, our assistant deputy minister is in

Labrador, our staff is in Labrador, we have to travel back and forth. So, to see

that type of increase in a travel budget is certainly not something that would

be odd, in my view.

MS JONES: Doesn't the deputy minister fall under the Executive Support

of the department? You don't fall under that estimate, do you? You are under

Executive Support.

MR. COOMBS: Yes, that is correct.

MS JONES: So that budget does not pertain to you at all.

MR. COOMBS: I can provide some insight on the Labrador Affairs salaries.

I am sorry - pardon me - on the transportation and communications. The reality

is that I was - and, as well, Mr. Bowles is under the Executive Support

section

in terms of salaries and travel

MS JONES: Yes, that is what I understand. I am trying to figure this out.

MR. COOMBS: The big thing for us last year, particularly with the

Labrador Affairs staff in terms of transportation, there were a number of issues

that came to light, or that arose. One is that there has been a 30 per cent to

40 per cent increase in airfare. That is one, but that is not a big player in

the scheme of the dollars. The big thing last year was the preparation and the

announcement of the Northern Strategic Plan.

During fiscal 2007-2008 we did a lot of travel back and forth to St. John's,

because not only are we responsible for the preparation and delivery of that

program, we are now responsible, under the transparency and accountability

framework, for the monitoring and implementation. As a result of that, there has

been a senior officials committee that has been created and we liaison with them

quite frequently. That is the operational staff.

As part of the Northern Strategic Plan, we did follow-up consultations on the

Coast of Labrador in terms of that. We did consultations on the Air Foodlift

Subsidy. We also did consultations on the Labrador Winter Trails. As a result of

that, there has been a large increase in travel.

The other point is that, as deputy minister, I came on in February last year

and, having a great interest in the department and the Labrador and Aboriginal

Affairs section, I have directed staff to play a much more significant role and

to attend more meetings. As a result of that, both the Labrador Affairs travel

and communications has increased in the context of what I just said, plus the

fact that I want them participating more to ensure that the interests of

Labrador are incorporated in government's agenda.

Number one, those items resulted in an increase. As well, on the Executive

Support side, in terms of transportation and communications, it has entailed

significant travel for both the ADM and myself.

Those are the explanations for the significant increase.

MS JONES: Yes, and you gave me that explanation in Aboriginal Affairs

because that budget had doubled up, right, last year?

MR. COOMBS: Yes.

MS JONES: That was for you and Ron and the Executive Support. That is why

I was wondering, when the minister kept referring to you guys, because your

claims would not come out of that at all. This would be for analysts within the

department, wouldn't it?

MR. COOMBS: Yes, definitely.

MR. HICKEY: Just let me make a couple of comments here.

Certainly their salaries would not come out; but, having said that, I think

the consultations that we did on the Coast of Labrador - we did something like

thirty-four consultations when it came to the Northern Strategic Plan, the

consultations we did with the Air Foodlift Subsidy - that is something we have

not been used to in Labrador: the consultation process. That is something that

has been lacking over the years.

From our perspective, we believe that we have to get out to coastal

communities. We have to find out what people's views are, so that as we move

the Northern Strategic Plan forward certainly the views of the different sectors

and the different communities in Labrador - again, various groups and

organizations get the opportunity to voice their concerns and to have input into

our way forward.

I think, when we look at the expenditures of the Northern Strategic Plan, which

will be somewhere around the vicinity of some-$300 million of investment into

Labrador, including the different sectors, I think it is important that we get

out there and we spend this money. If that means we have to spend a little more

on travel to get out and listen to people's views, then I do not see any issue

with that.

MS JONES: My next question is on Professional Services, which is under

the heading 05. Last year you budgeted $15,000, you spent $32,000, which equates

to an extra $17,000. Can you tell me what services you contracted for that

money?

MR. COOMBS: The increase here is purely we did an initial print of our

Northern Strategic Plan on release in April. I think it was mid-summer that we

exhausted that supply and had to do a reprint. That cost there is purely the

reprint of additional - I am not sure, Ron, of how many copies. Anyway, it was

the reprint of copies of the Northern Strategic Plan.

MS JONES: Okay. Who did you contract to do that printing for you?

MR. BOWLES: The second printing was done in-house; it was down at the

Queen's Printer.

MS JONES: Okay, and who did the original printing?

MR. BOWLES: I have to think there now, Ms Jones. We went out to the

public tender and we went through Prime Communications Inc.

MS JONES: Okay.

Under Purchased Services, last year you spent $120,000. It was down from what

you had estimated. Can you give me the breakdown of what you purchased under

that heading?

MR. BOWLES: We had a Come Work and Play initiative budgeted for Labrador.

That was for recruiting and to work with other departments. Simply put, the

Northern Strategic Plan took up so much of our time that we did not really do

justice to this, so what we did is transfer that over. We had $25,000 -

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. BOWLES: Yes, it is $50,000 now because we did not spend the $25,000.

We allocated over $50,000 for this year so we can give it the proper attention

that it deserves for this year, for Come Work and Play.

MS JONES: I am sorry; I did not get what it was for again.

MR. BOWLES: It was for an initiative in the Northern Strategic Plan, Come

Work and Play. What it was was to try to attract professionals into Labrador. As

we all know, recruitment and retention is tough throughout the Province. So we

had that $50,000 to try to attract professionals to a realistic setting in

Labrador. We wanted to get people that come to Labrador to know up-front what

they are coming for. That is a work in progress. We could not do it last year so

we transferred over to this year, for a total of $50,000.

MS JONES: How much is that total initiative?

MR. BOWLES: It is a total of $50,000.

MS JONES: A total of $50,000. Now that was what you did not spend. What

was the $120,000 that you did spend last year under Purchased Services?

MR. BOWLES: I guess the then deputy minister - that would be general

leasing of offices, printing, advertising; general purchased services as normal.

MS JONES: Okay. The increase this year is all for the recruitment

campaign?

MR. BOWLES: Yes.

MS JONES: Under your Grants and Subsidies, it was budgeted at $1.22

million. It was down to $990,000. Can you tell me what grants and subsidies fell

under the $990,000?

MR. BOWLES: Well, we can certainly go through some of this. We had a food

airlift subsidy increase by $20,000, that was about $250,000; a poverty

reduction initiative. The winter trail grooming grants were revised to $367,000.

The Labrador Winter Trails improvement initiative is a new initiative. The

funding of a trail groomer for North West River to the Mulligan Trail was

$242,000; also, funding of a trail groomer for Postville. We also funded the

youth delegates to attend the Youth Council convention, $43,000. We did the

Combined Councils grant, increased the grant by $20,000; and the Williams

Harbour air subsidy was $13,000.

MS JONES: That was the accounts for the $990,000, is it?

MR. BOWLES: Yes.

MS JONES: This year it is increased substantially. Can you give me the

breakdown of what is being added this year?

MR. COOMBS: The figures that are provided to you are the revised figures.

Your question in terms of the initial budget and the revised, the change

reflects savings in some of those program areas. Those numbers, minister,

provided were revised.

For 2008-2009, the amounts; there has been an increase in the air food lift

subsidy by $200,000, which brings it to $600,000. The winter trail grooming

grants is $390,000. There is a winter trails and improvement initiative, which

is $200,000. There is funding for a trail groomer, which was announced in the

Budget Speech, of $275,000. The $43,000 funding for the youth convention is

there, that has remained the same. There is funding to construct a groomer shed

for the North West River Trail, which is $75,000. The minister mentioned the

operating grant for the Combined Councils of Labrador; it was increased by

$20,000 to $120,000 for 2008-2009. The Williams Harbour Air Subsidy is $30,000;

and Grants and Subsidies is $25,000. That should give you $1.758 million.

MS JONES: The $25,000 for Grants and Subsidies, who is that given out to?

MR. COOMBS: That is across the department.

MS JONES: Okay, for conferences and trade shows?

MR. COOMBS: That was given out for conferences and things related to the

mandate of the department.

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. COOMBS: That is combined. We can provide a list of those if you want

them.

MR. HICKEY: That is for both, Aboriginal and Labrador Affairs.

MS JONES: Under the increase in the airlift subsidy, will the program be

broadened as a result of that increase, or will there be an increase in

subsidization to businesses?

MR. HICKEY: Sorry, I did not get the first part of you question.

MS JONES: Under the airlift subsidy, the increase in funding, will this

allow for a broadening of the program in anyway, such as an increased subsidy to

businesses, adding more items that can be transported under the subsidy,

anything like that, or is it just to cover off the program as it is now?

MR. HICKEY: Well, as you know, we have increased the airlift subsidy

substantially. I think we are now up to $600,000 this year. Certainly, as we

continue to consult with the people in Coastal Labrador and these communities,

we will continue to make improvements to this program. We have increased it over

the last number of years. I think we started at about $200,000 and now we are up

to $600,000. At the end of the day, for me it is not so much the money as is the

value that we are giving out to these communities.

The other thing is, we want to see these benefits passed on to the consumers

in these communities so that we can provide fresh fruit and vegetables to

Aboriginal children in Aboriginal communities. So, from my perspective, we will

continue to enhance this program, to continue to provide the necessary nutrition

out in these small communities that they deserve. We will continue to explore,

we will continue to revamp, and we will continue to improve as we move forward

with the program.

MS JONES: Will the rate of subsidization increase?

MR. HICKEY: Again, as we review the program that is a possibility.

MS JONES: Because, you know, it is at thirteen cents and the price of the

transporting of freight has gone up drastically.

MR. HICKEY: Yes, absolutely.

MS JONES: I know last year there was a struggle for a number of these

businesses, and the policy that you made around switching the subsidy on milk

products drove up the price of milk in all the communities in my district. I

cannot speak for the Norton house because I never did check it out to find out

if that was the case, but I know in my own district it added - and I talked to

Mr. Bowles about this - anywhere from eighty cents up to $1.40 in some cases on

a carton of milk, depending on where it was being flown, whether it was being

flown to Forteau or to Mary's Harbour or to Cartwright, or whatever the case

was.

I know that the only thing you guys did was change where the rebate was

going, but because the companies themselves, the supplier was claiming the

rebate, they were also offsetting the transportation costs, which they refused

to do after. I could not understand it for a number of weeks what was going on,

but then once I talked to the company I realized what was happening. The prices

of the products have increased. So I would like for you to look at whether the

subsidization will increase, based on the same ratio.

MR. HICKEY: As I just said, we will continue to monitor the program.

Obviously, the climate changes, as far as the costs, airfare, fuel. Everything

is going up, we understand that. Certainly, from our department's perspective,

we may very well look at not only doing some of these things in the wintertime

but we may also feel that it is important to do it in the summertime. We are

exploring that now, particularly in the case of milk and perishable items.

We will continue to monitor it. We will continue to consult with the

different communities and the businesses that are involved. We are going to

continue to try to improve the existing program and it will develop, as it has

developed over the last - since 2003, since our government took office.

MS JONES: The other program you guys administer is the Labrador Winter

Trails, is it? Is that now part of your department?

MR. HICKEY: Yes.

MS JONES: Okay. Do you have an administrative role of any sort within

that program?

MR. HICKEY: We provide the funding to the Labrador Winter Trails. Last

winter we had some challenges, to say the least. We are, again, reviewing that

particular program. We have put more money into the budget this year with a new

groomer for Postville, $275,000. Another $75,000 will go to North West River to

house the groomer we bought there last year.

Our mandate here, and certainly our mission forward, is to provide a good

winter, as I call it, a winter road system to the communities on the North Coast

and South Coast of Labrador. This year we will look at some of the areas, from a

safety perspective, where we have had groomers go through the ice. We will look

at opportunities to reroute some of those trails from around the bodies of water

to put them on land. At the end of the day, our mandate here is to look at a

service so that people can travel back and forth between Coastal Labrador and

some of the larger communities.

MS JONES: Well, this year I do not think I need to tell you that the

grooming program was absolutely horrible. The groomers were broken down for most

of the winter. I do not know whose responsibility that is supposed to be. I did

not realize until late this spring that your department had actually taken over

this program. I always thought it was independently run by an independent body

that sourced funds from federal-provincial revenues. I knew the Province had

historically, for the last twenty years, given out grants to communities that

did not have road connections. Then I learned this spring that it was no longer

administered that way, it was now being administered under Labrador and

Aboriginal Affairs. Taking on that administrative role, I would think comes the

responsibility of ensuring that the program runs effectively and efficiently.

There were communities in my district this year that were not connected by

road. You know Norman Bay, you know Williams Harbour and you know Black Tickle,

they rarely saw a groomer for the winter. It was one problem to the other,

either the groomers were not operating or when they did get the parts in and get

them back in operation, the funding was all used up and they did not have any

money to put people on the groomers or any fuel to go in them or whatever the

case was.

I talked to a lady, I do not know if she works out of your office or not,

Georgina Allen, I think it was a couple of times on it, I had talked to Labrador

Winter Trails and I think I even called you, Ron, at one point or a couple of

times, on it, so it is a problem. I realize that there are areas that have good

trails and they are being groomed, and people are paying a fee to ensure that

service, but there are other communities that are very dependent upon that, and

I think they need to become the priority. I really do. Someone needs to make

them a priority in terms of ensuring they have service.

I have to say, going back to the days when it was operated by development

associations - and I know that it is probably not the normal way to do things

today, but even back then - it seemed like it was somewhat of a better service,

and probably because it was local people in an area so they were more inclined

to know what was going on and they would try and do what they could to fix it.

Now it seems like, because Labrador Winter Trails is a broader-based Labrador

organization, and it is administered now under government, the same kind of, I

guess, leniency is not there for them to take matters into their own hands all

the time.

I don't know. I just ask that you give some priority to these communities

on a go-forward basis to ensure that they at least have a reliable service in

the winter.

MR. HICKEY: Let me make a couple of comments to those comments.

First of all, I think overall we have improved the trail system in Labrador

from the days when the development associations were involved. I really do.

MS JONES: I am talking about administration.

MR. HICKEY: I beg your pardon?

MS JONES: I wasn't talking about the quality of the trail; I was

talking about how the service is provided.

MR. HICKEY: Let me give you some more information here that I think you

need.

First of all, your understanding of the Labrador Winter Trails, and the

relationship between the Labrador Winter Trails and the Department of Labrador

Affairs, while we certainly give them money to do they are an independent

board. They have their own corporate entity, and obviously they are the ones

that hire the staff out in these communities.

This particular winter there were a number of issues that came up. First of

all, we didn't get a lot of snow until late, so obviously to get out onto the

trails was a challenge. Then, when we did get out onto the trails, and

particularly on the South Coast, we ran into situations certainly between

Cartwright and Black Tickle where we ran into slob, where again we could not get

the groomers across some of the lakes and ponds. That was a challenge.

As far as the corporate entity and your conversation with Georgina Allen,

Georgina came on, I guess, as the executive director and certainly the

responsibility of the trails, but here is something you have to remember. The

Labrador Winter Trails is a separate entity from the snowmobile associations

that run the trails down in Central Labrador, Western Labrador and Southern

Labrador.

The Labrador Winter Trails, its mandate is basically to ensure that the

trails to the communities which you mentioned - Black Tickle, Norman's Bay,

Charlottetown, Williams Harbour - these communities fall under that because we

consider them, as I said earlier, winter roads. That has nothing to do -

absolutely nothing to do - with the snowmobile clubs that operate the trails in

Happy Valley-Goose Bay or Western Labrador.

We understand that there were some challenges, and I will be up front here

this morning. One of the challenges that we saw last winter is the

administration, to the point where basically it came to my attention that there

had been an expenditure of over $104,000 that they could not account for.

Basically, we stopped all operations because at the end of the day these funds

obviously come through the Department of Labrador Affairs and we have to be

accountable for that, so we stopped the operations until such time as we could

find out.

On the instruction of the minister, we sent auditors in to review their

administration. As a matter of fact, we are now actively reviewing it, at

present, how we are going to deliver that system next year. We may not go with

the Labrador Winter Trails option. We will look at various options, including

the possibility of putting out to a private contractor on a contract basis to

provide the service of grooming the trails between communities. So these are all

the options that the department is looking at right now.

I will agree with you that last year was an unusual year. Certainly, I see

room for improvement and we will make improvements.

MS JONES: I am glad to see that you are reviewing it, and you are looking

at how you are going to tackle this next year, because it was a problem. I have

no problem with Labrador Winter Trails; I believe in the concept of having a

united trail way through Labrador. I think that provides a lot of leverage for

us on other aspects in terms of tourism and promotion and all that kind of

stuff, and it makes for probably a better package in terms of looking at that

part of the industry in Labrador, but my priority has to be ensuring that the

people in my district have access to a trail, and last year that access was not

sufficient. The year before, I don't think we had a problem. I think the year

before, or at least two years before that, it seemed to be a perfect system. It

worked fine.

Maybe it is because of expenditures they ran into, or problems with equipment

- I don't know what it was - but I just want to make sure that, whatever you

do on a go-forward basis, they understand that these communities who do not have

roads should be a priority when it comes to getting service.

MR. HICKEY: Well, I can say this to you: while you have concerns about

your district, I have concerns about all of Labrador, and certainly on the North

Coast particularly on the North Coast - we have had some challenges up

there, and we have had a couple of situations where, in my view, we were lucky

we didn't lose one of the drivers because of going through the ice.

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. HICKEY: The safety of this trail is certainly one of the main focuses

of myself as a minister, and I have certainly expressed to department officials

that we have to look at getting these trails off the ice and onto solid land,

and we believe that expenditure, which I think this year is $250,000 - and we

will continue to do that again next year, and we will do that until such time as

we can get most of those trails onto solid land.

The other thing, of course, is that we fully understand, when it comes to the

smaller communities, that these trails are paramount to connecting them to each

other, number one, but also to Central Labrador and in particular the North

Coast. My colleague, Minister Pottle, has certainly expressed the view, and

certainly has been very supportive of making improvements to that part of the

Coast.

For the communities, certainly, of Black Tickle and Norman's Bay and

Williams Harbour, those communities are very important to us also, and we

understand the challenges that these communities have, particularly in the

wintertime and throughout the year, so I think this is a worthwhile project and

it is something that is not going to be developed overnight.

We have seen drastic improvements than what we had before 2003. We have had

substantial investments in new equipment; but, having said that, costs have gone

up and I think at the end of the day certainly we will see a lot better trail

system throughout Labrador than what we have seen in the past, and that is my

mission.

MS JONES: For trail money now, I approached ACOA about two weeks ago with

a proposal to do some work on the trail between Norman Bay and Charlottetown.

There are still a couple of sections of that, that have to go over land to be

able to lengthen out the season and stuff like that, and what has been done

needs some work done on it. It needs to be de-stumped and all that stuff.

Basically, I was told that I had to go to your department. I don't know if

that is the case, but

MR. HICKEY: I beg your pardon?

MS JONES: They told me that all the trail work now in Labrador was being

done through your department.

I know that millions of dollars was spent in federal money to do these

trails, and I thought they would still be entertaining proposals around it, so I

just wanted to get some clarification as to how that works. I know there is

money in the budget this year to do trails on the North Coast, so would they

just submit the proposal to your department for review? How does that work?

MR. HICKEY: Absolutely.

Again, that is one of the reasons we do these consultations; we want to hear

from communities. If they have ideas and they want to make improvements, we are

prepared to certainly sit down with them.

On the point of talking to ACOA, any time ACOA wants to spend money in

Labrador, this minister will be all there to take their money and utilize it for

the best interest of those communities, absolutely, so I don't have any

trouble on that.

Maybe if my officials want to make some additional comments on that

MS JONES: I don't know if you guys are aware of it. That was my first

time. Normally, when we went to them for money to do snowmobile trail work, it

has been well received within ACOA, but this time I didn't get that reception,

to be honest with you, and basically I was told that this is not something that

we want to look at right now. I don't know if you have had discussions with

them or not.

MR. COOMBS: We talk with them quite regularly. I guess the distinction

that needs to be made on Labrador Winter Trails is that we need to identify

Labrador Winter Trails Inc., and that is the corporate entity that utilizes the

trail improvement subsidy to maintain the trail system in those isolated

communities that are not connected to the highway network.

Then there is the component of Labrador Winter Trails that deals with the

snowmobile clubs, and they are more involved in the tourism component and the

maintenance of trails between communities that are not isolated. So you would

have the White Wolf Snowmobile Club in Labrador West and you will have the

snowmobile clubs down in the Straits Region, the South Coast, but that is

separate from the subsidy that we are providing. They receive their funds by

trail passes and what other means they can use to generate revenue, so we need

to make that distinction between the two.

The subsidy deals with interconnection of the road network, what we call the

winter road network, for those communities that are not connected. That funding

is provided by us. Labrador Winter Trails is totally separate. We are

accountable under the Financial Administration Act to ensure that they expend

monies per government legislation. Therefore we do have, particularly in the

current environment, a lot of scrutiny under expenditures, and we want to make

sure that everything that they spend is accountable for and is related to the

business of providing good winter trails to those communities.

So, yes, we have a responsibility for the maintenance of the trails but only

that aspect of the trails of the communities that are not interconnected on the

road network.

MS JONES: So that would include -

MR. COOMBS: Excuse me.

Their role is, they have a budget. The money is provided to them, like any

other corporate entity or government entity, and they have to live within that

budget. If they exceed their expenditure, they are like any company; they have

to find savings some way. They are the ones that have to make decisions on what

trails they do and don't do, and they monitor that in conjunction with their

satellite operations.

If they get into a money crunch they either, like any other entity, have to

look at minimizing the labour input or minimizing the maintenance, or ensuring

that the maintenance

schedule reflects where the real need is, and you try to

minimize it.

That is the sort of situation we are looking at in the past year and, as the

minister identified, this year they are $104,000 over budget. We want to know

why. We are a client like the clients are in your community, in your district,

and like they are on the North Coast. They want to know why these expenditures

are made, and explain them. That is why auditors were sent in.

Making those distinctions, yes, we are responsible for the subsidy. The

minister has indicated that on a go-forward basis we want to improve that

system. Part of the budget increases for this year, the $200,000 for trail

rerouting, is to look at some of those very hazardous areas that exist on both

the North and South Coast; look at rerouting.

Ultimately, our view of it, as the minister indicated, is that we want to

make that - it is not just a recreational trail. For those communities that do

not have highway network to tap into, like they do in Central Labrador, Lab West

and Southern Labrador, this trail has to be more than a trail. It has to be as

high a class of winter road as it can be, and that is what we are working

towards. Right now we are in a transition period.

You sort of asked the question: Well, this was going along quite well for the

last number of years. Why, all of a sudden, do we have this issue this year in

terms of poor trail qualities or poor service? I will just put it under that

umbrella.

It comes down to, and the minister alluded to it, you look at the operations.

From an administrative point of view, we are not responsible for telling

Labrador Winter Trails Inc. how to do its business. What we are responsible for

is asking them to be accountable for the funds that we provide them. In that

context, they are given complete autonomy to run that trail as any corporate

entity would, as efficiently as possible. That is sort of the environment we are

in now.

Moving forward with the budget increases we have this year, we are looking at

- there is going to be a transition, as the minister indicated, to a new model

that may not involve Labrador Winter Trails Inc. as being a delivery agent for

this program. We are looking at four or five options and we are going to do a

consultation process with people as well in the coming year, and that alludes

back to our travel. Why our travel monies have gone up is because we really want

to get close to these communities and get to the heart of the issues and get

close to the ground direction on where to move.

MR. HICKEY: Just to add to those comments. I think there is something,

too, that I just want to - while we are on the issue and to set the record

straight, I suppose, is that as we evolve this over the next two or three years,

and particularly in light of the anticipated completion of the Trans-Labrador

Highway, Phase III, this will cause us to have a re-think of it all again

because we will not be providing the trail system then between Goose Bay and

Cartwright. That will fall under the snowmobile clubs to maintain that piece of

infrastructure. Of course, with the road completion, those changes will take

place. Having said that, which the deputy just alluded to, at the end of the day

I look at the roads on the North Coast of Labrador and those communities on the

South Coast that are not connected by road, is that during the wintertime, as

best we can, is to provide the best winter highway for them to be able to move

back and forth between communities and certainly, between their different

regions in Labrador.

Are there any other points, Ron, that you may want to add here?

MR. BOWLES: Just one point.

With reference to ACOA; as the deputy had said, and the minister is well

aware, we communicate regularly with ACOA, and there are a number of projects

that we work simultaneously on. That is quite correct, our first priority, our

only priority really, are those coastal communities.

I want to just make one point here, is that things have changed significantly

in how we do transportation. One thing, the groomers are much more

sophisticated. They are high-tech. They are much more expensive, and having

local people be trained to operate those becomes an issue. It is not like it was

ten years ago where it was - right now you are looking at laptops to fix these.

There are a whole bunch of issues around this. The insurance has pretty well

tripled. The fuel prices have risen. The days of giving a grant to the Community

Development Associations are long over. The transparent accountability of how

government spends their monies has improved significantly. You just cannot give

a grant anymore. So, the whole way we do that has changed significantly.

One of the issues with a winter trail is there has been millions of dollars

spent in providing these infrastructures but no one has really thought out: How

do you maintain and operate this piece of infrastructure? That is the problem.

That is one that we have to be concerned with in terms of transportation. We

have to not only get the groomers, we have to make sure that they are operated

and maintained well. That is a big problem with the whole winter trail system in

Labrador right now: How do you maintain and operate these expensive pieces of

machinery?

MS JONES: Getting back to my question on the Norman Bay trail, which

there seems to be some problems, do they submit their proposal to you guys?

MR. HICKEY: Again, as I said earlier, we will be going out and we will be

certainly going to Normans Bay and we will be consulting with the people in

Normans Bay. Obviously, if they have some proposals or plans they would like to

put forward, we will certainly entertain them. That is not a problem.

MS JONES: The money that was budgeted this year, the $200,000, is that

all committed?

MR. HICKEY: Pretty well.

MS JONES: Okay. There would not be extra money there under that voted

estimate that they could apply under?

MR. HICKEY: Not right now, no.

MS JONES: Williams Harbour is still talking about having the bridge

across Winter Tickle as a means of access for snowmobiles, at least in the

winter, to get across the Tickle. Is there anything new on that?

MR. HICKEY: That is an issue that I dealt with when I was Minister of

Transportation and Works. I tried to get that, and we sent engineers in. When I

was the minister I was very active in wanting to try to see if we could find a

suitable solution, offer that. I am very much aware of it.

The engineers came back and basically said that was not a viable option, and

it did not make the light of day. I was a little disappointed in that because I

would have liked to have put a Bailey bridge across there. I thought that it

would have been an opportunity - it would have given us a whole bunch of

opportunities, particularly during the freeze up and break up. We did do a good

effort on it and basically the cost of it was just prohibitive to be able to put

it across there. Right now, of course, we are providing helicopter service to

those communities during those times, and I understand Minister Whalen, just

days ago, approved it again this year.

MS JONES: It is finished now.

MR. HICKEY: I beg your pardon?

MS JONES: It is finished now.

MR. HICKEY: I am just saying she did approve that.

MS JONES: For a week, yes.

MR. HICKEY: We did it last year. We did it when I was the minister,

because at the time I found out that service was being provided to other

portions of the Province but not to the people on the Coast of Labrador, so we

changed that. Now they get the same service as people down in Little Bay Islands

or Long Island or any other of those communities that are connected by ferry

service.

MS JONES: I don't know what other things fall under your department,

but I just had a couple of questions that might be under the Northern Plan. I

don't know if it is or not; you can tell me if it isn't. One was: in the

budget there was a plan to expand the eligibility of Northern Allowances for

people who were on Income Support, and there was an investment there of

$200,000. I don't know if that is being done through your department or

somewhere else, or how it works.

MR. HICKEY: We are looking at that, it is true. It is done under our

poverty reduction under Minister Skinner's department, and that is certainly

one of the incentives that we are entertaining and having discussions with them.

That is an issue up in some of these small communities.

Obviously, our challenge right now, as you know, in these small communities

is to do whatever we can to attract professionals there and to retain them when

we get them. That is our biggest challenge in Labrador and in the North right

now.

Certainly, we will be working with Minister Skinner and his department to

look at ways and means that we can enhance some of those programs.

MS JONES: Okay, because, when you look at it in terms of Income Support

clients, $200,000 for all of Labrador doesn't seem like a lot of money. I don't

know what the caseload is now; we haven't looked at it.

So, right now there is no plan on how that money will be rolled out, or how

much like, if I am an individual who is on Social Assistance, if I will get

a bonus of $50 a month or something? I don't know how it is going to work.

MR. HICKEY: I have not gotten down to those details, but those details

are being worked out as I understand it.

MS JONES: Okay.

Well, I could ask him about it, I guess.

The other one is just more curiosity than anything. Last year there was money

announced to do the archives for Them Days . I am just wondering where

that is. Is it done yet, or is it on the way?

MR. HICKEY: Yes. That money has been allocated and, if I remember, it was

$250,000, I believe, or -

MS JONES: Two hundred thousand.

MR. HICKEY: Two hundred thousand, yes.

I can tell you, that is going very well and they are very appreciative of it,

and we are going to continue to support Them Days initiatives.

For me, personally, it is an organization that is part of our heritage and

our culture, and the work that Doris Saunders did is something that all of us

who live in Labrador need to protect and to enhance. Certainly we will do

whatever - I will do certainly whatever I can to ensure that they get the

continued support so that we protect the stories and the lives of those

individuals who lived out on the Labrador Coast, and the history and our

heritage. It is all part of our culture.

This is going very well. They have hired some people in Happy Valley-Goose

Bay who are doing a whole bunch of work to protect some of the documents that we

have there, and certainly I want to see it enhanced to the Coast of Labrador. If

you look at the North Coast of Labrador - in Hopedale in particular, Minister

Pottle's hometown - the Moravian archives that are there, it is just

phenomenal. We need to continue to support and to protect these pieces of

history.

MS JONES: Where is the collection housed? Where are they housing it?

MR. HICKEY: In Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MS JONES: Where?

MR. HICKEY: The same building.

MS JONES: In the Them Days building, is it?

MR. HICKEY: There is an extension. They are looking at an extension on

that with a fully - they are looking at temperature-controlled rooms to be able

to ensure the documents are preserved in a proper climate-controlled area and

space.

MS JONES: Okay.

Is there any consideration being given to having an archivist hired on a

regular basis, or a permanent basis?

MR. HICKEY: Again, we have not gotten down to that detail with them. We

have basically said: Here is your money; this is what you intended to do with it

- but I understand that, yes, they are looking at those types of things. I

understand that they have some people involved now who are looking at a lot of

these procedures.

MS JONES: Okay.

Thank you, Minister, and I thank your officials this morning for your time.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my colleagues. That will be all of my questions for

today.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Do we have any others?

MR. HICKEY: Just a couple of closing remarks, if I could?

CHAIR: Yes, sure, just give me one second.

Are there any more questions from the Committee?

Okay, Minister, you can feel free.

MR. HICKEY: Thank you very much, and I want to thank my staff here this

morning for coming to this Committee.

I just want to say, for the record, that there are a lot of initiatives right

now happening in Labrador. When we look at transportation this year, we will

spend $66.3 million on transportation initiatives alone. When it comes to

infrastructure, I am very pleased with the infrastructure supports that we have

gotten from Premier Williams and our government in Labrador.

In my own district alone there is some $54 million worth of new

infrastructure. The Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, I am sure, is happy

about the new school that we are building in Port Hope Simpson, the new school

in L'Anse-au-Loup, the new $2 million maintenance building which we are

looking at building this year on the Cartwright Junction, along with the new

investment in Chateau Pond, the new hospital in Labrador West, and the new

college facility.

All of these infrastructure initiatives were initiatives that have been long

wanting by the people of Labrador. We have now been able, through the support of

Premier Williams and our government, to start these projects.

I must say, we have come a long way since the year 2003. We have come a long

way since the previous Administration looked at taking the $95 million and

putting into general revenue, so I am very, very, pleased with what we are doing

in Labrador.

As I say many times when I speak, when we invest in Labrador as a Province we

invest in this Province's future. Labrador has been a large contributor to

this Province since we came to Confederation, and we will continue to be a large

contributor. That is why, when we look at transportation in particular, whether

it is the winter roads on the North Coast of Labrador or whether it is the

Trans-Labrador Highway, we will certainly see great changes coming to Labrador,

particularly next year, in 2009, when the road is scheduled to be completed.

That is going to change the face of Labrador and the relationship between

Labrador and the Island portion of the Province.

I am very pleased with the progress we are making, certainly from a

departmental perspective and certainly from government's perspective.

Thanks very much for everybody's time this morning, and have a nice day.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and I certainly want to thank you and your

staff, too, for being here this morning.

If I could, now, shall 2.1.02. carry? That is for Labrador and Aboriginal

Affairs.

Shall 2.1.02. carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subhead 2.1.02. carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Before I adjourn, just a couple of housekeeping things.

Can I have a motion to adopt the minutes for the Department of Aboriginal

Affairs for May 12, 2008?

MR. BUCKINGHAM: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Buckingham - with the changes noted, I might add.

Could I have a seconder?

MR. FORSEY: Seconded.

On motion, minutes adopted as amended.

CHAIR: Could I also have a motion to adopt the minutes for the Department

of Intergovernmental Affairs on May 15, 2008?

MS E. MARSHALL: So moved.

Moved by Ms Marshall. Seconded by?

AN HON. MEMBER: Seconded.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I guess I should clue up by thanking the Committee for its time,

and the ministers, and in particular all the staff that have been involved in

the Committees, because certainly people do not realize it but some of the

public servants put in an awful lot of time within government and within the

walls of government. I certainly want to thank and acknowledge their work.

So, without any further ado, could I have the call for a motion to adjourn?

MS E. MARSHALL: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Ms Marshall.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.