Manitoba Hansard — 9 February 1960 (Sitting 16A, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-16a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 16A ·February 9, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Tuesday, February 9, 1960, 8:00P.M.

Committee of Supp ly: Executive Council, Administration, Supplies ..•........•..... .•••••. _. ............. 365 Federal Provincial Conference .. , .. ....•.... , • . . • • • • . . • . . . . . . . . . . • • • . . . . . 366 Grants and Miscellaneous •.....•.•••..••.•...••..... �-·....... ...... . ... 372 Libraries and Historical Research: Provincial Library .. •.•... · .. : . . . . . • • . . . . . . . • . • 377 Treasury: Administration • • • . • . . • • • . • . . . . • . • . . . . • • • . . . . . • • • • • . . . . • • . . . • . . . . . . . 380 Central Electronics Bureau . . • • . . • . . . . • • . . • . • • • . . . . . . . . • . • • . . . • • . . . . . . • • 384 Taxation Branch, Insurance Premiums, Insurance Branch •.••...•• •• . • • •• �. 389.

Provincial Secretary: Administration . • • . • . . .. • • . • . • . . .. . . . . . . • . . . . . . • • . • . . • . • • • 390 Queen's Printer Off icer, Historical Sites • • • . . • • • • • . • . • • • • . . . . • • . . . . . • • • . . 392 The Progressive Index of Votes and Proceedings will be · published on Tuesdays on the last page.

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8!00 o'clock, Tuesday, F-ebruary 9th, 1960. MR . CHAIRMAN: Department II, Executive Council. 1. Administration (a), (b) ... MR . ROBLIN: I would just like to tell the Committee on the number of Other Salaries there, the number of people employed under that item is eight. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I was going to make a very few -- I'm sure they will be few remarks on (

a) because, the first part of (a). I' m not going to get into -- so far as I'm concerned -- an extended debate in regard to the Cabinet Ministers• salaries in the way that I have with the indemnity. I think there's a different principle here because after all this one is a salary. There again, I still think it's impossible even in the salary to pay in all cases what the individual is worth.

It may be quite possible in some cases we're paying more than the in dividual is worth, but I don't think that we can take the position here either that this is a position and-- even though I'm speaking on the Premier's salary-- I mean it to apply to all the Cabinet Ministers' positions that I don't think this is the case where we can be strictly competitive with the business world or even with the other Provinces, so my general remarks with regard to indemnities apply to some extent here -- I'm not going to move a motion at this time particu- · larly if I were going to move one I wouldn't want to move it, I'd prefer to move it at one of the other Ministers rather than the First Minister's salary and, Mr.

Chairman, if you're willing to take my remarks as read and along the same general tenor as those dealing with indemnities, then I simply think that combined with the indemnity raise that those of the Cabinet :Ministers are too soon and too much. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I've followed the Honourable, the Leader of the Oppo sition in respect of indemnities and his own salary and I think in all fairness I should do it in re spect of this.

I recall here, Sir, when the First Minister was in opposition, I think it was about three years ago that the then member -- one of the members for Winnipeg or Winnipeg South was it -- Mr. Ronald Turner had stepped down from the Cabinet and on the very first occasion that arose where it was possible for him to speak on the question of ministerial salaries, ministers' salaries, he drew to the attention of the House the fact that, in his opinion, the Cabinet Ministers were considerably underpaid for the value that the Province received from them.

At that time, I, on behalf of our group as I am doing at thepresenttime, agreed with the points that he raised and as far as I'm concerned-- as far as my group is concerned -- that it appears to us that while again there is no question of merit rating for Cabinet Ministers any more than there is in respect to the rest of the m em bers in the House, we raise no objection to this increase at all and thi:rk it is justified, not of necessity for the sitting members of the Cabinet but it has been long overdue .

Had it not been for the cautious in some respects, hand of my friend, the Leader of the Opposition this may have been done-- would have been done long before and there may not have been movement within the ranks at the Ministers' level -and there may not have been carrying this through to the Civil Service itself, partic ularly in respect of Deputy Ministers. There may not have been quite a lot of shuffling that happened in respect of that. MR . CHAIRMAN: (

b) Passed. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I have some questions to ask in regard to Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals. I notice a couple of items in the Public Accounts that ap pear to be quite substantial. I'm wondering if the First Minister would give us some information regarding them. The two that I refer to are machinery and equipment, more than $4, 000. and printing stationery, office maintenance again near $5,000. Those seem to me to be rather large increases over the former amounts as I recall them. I was wondering if we could have some in formation on them. MR .

ROBLIN: My friend is comparing the figure in the Public Accounts with the esti mates here, I take it. What page was that on-- Public Accounts? I've got my notes with that page. MR . CAMPBELL: Page 173. MR . ROBLIN: Well, I'm not sure that I can precisely identify the exact reasons for these changes in any more than a general sense.

I can say that we have perhaps a different procedure than what was formerly followed, particularly the conduct of Cabinet business which requires a different arrangement of our secretarial or stenographic and office organizations. l'm'not entirely sure how my honourable friend carried on because I wasn't there but what February 9th, 1960 Page 365

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) ... inform ation we can glean leads me to think that we are probably a little stronger on the paper work on that particular point than might have been. All I can say is that these are the items that members of the staff calculate are required on the basis of their experience in the last year to carry on the work of the office. We have a little more secretarial help than previously. It may be that we are writing more letters, I don't know. I wouldn •t think that• s a major item .

All that I can really say is that on the basis of the methods now in vogue that this is the cost that the staff estimates will be requir ed. MR. CAMPBELL: I quite understand that, Mr.

Chairman, and I .have no doubt that that is the correct explanation , but I was referring to, and it has been customary through the years when the Estimates are going through for a given year that it's permissible to ask ques tions rega rding the actual expenditures of the year shown in public accounts and it was really with regard to two items on page 17 3 of public accounts that I was making the query with regard to the two large items, both of them over, one of them over $4, 500. and the other over $4, 7 00 I noticed that the expenditure at that time under this same heading was more than $14, 000 only $7, 300 is being asked here.

If the Honourable the First Minister hasn't it at hand I would be quite willing to get that later on ........ . MR . ROBLIN : Yes, well a lot of equipment was purchased in the way of dictaphones and items of that sort, a new typewriter desk and an entirely new filing system installed at that time and that' s a rather expensive item. Those are , I think, the main items which account for those expenditures. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5, Administration $54, 435 passed. Resolution 2, Fed eral Provincial Conference $2, 7 50. Resolution 6. MR . GRAY: Mr.

Chairman I noticed in the Hansard from Ottawa quite often the dis cussion is about the Federal Provincial Conference. Now I think would be the time for the First Minister, the Pro vincial Treasurer tell us, · is there going to be a conferen ce ? What are the prospects of getting our share that you have requested? I think it would be of interest to me at least, something about it, because on account of the quite a few discussions in the last week or two I noticed in the Hansard for the Provincial Conference and in some cases mentioned Manitoba. MR .

ROBLIN : I'm not familiar with the references to which my honourable friend re- fers but I may say that this item refers to one particular kind of Federal Provincial Conference namely the one to do with ta.x rentals and matters associated with it. I am hoping to make a fairly comprehensive statement on recent activities in this line and also the present policy of administration during the course of the budget debate. That is probably the right place for it and we do wish to give the House what information we can and also to give our --state our policy on this very important matter . MR . MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman, there has been a conference I believe since the last time we met here in July and August last year. I understand from what the First Minister said that he would report on that later on. Now at that time as I read the newspaper report there were indications that there would be a further conference in 19 60, now has a date been set, is there any indication when that will be and what the agenda will be ? MR.

ROBLIN: I believe I reported on that, I reported to the House when it last met in connection with the meeting in July because we were in Session then I think I took a couple of days off to go down there and also advised what took place and one of the understandings reached was that the conference should meet again I believe on November 15th, this year.

Well it met and I think that the newspapers carried a pretty full report of the results which namely was more of the same sort of discussion that had taken place at the previous meeting and which I previously reported to the House and we are now awaiting a call to what we believe to be will be a plenary session �th power to make decisions on these important matters which is expected to be called sometime in the summer. No date has yet been suggested to the Province of Man itoba for that.

We have been given to understand in the course of discussions, although as I say, not in an official way that it will be some time in June of July or there abouts but we have had no confirmation of that particular date. However our expectation is that the conference will be called some time during the summer and we will be prepared to state our case at that meet ing. It is also our understanding-that this meeting will be a session with power to come to con clusions on the various matters which of course was not the case with the previous Tre asurers' Page 366 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) ... meetings that have been held but we're looking forward to attending that conference and to putting the best case forward we can for this province. MR. CAMPBELL: I was going to ask the same question that has been asked Mr. Chairman, about the probabilities of a conference being _held soon but like my honourable friend I have been reading some of Hansard and I see that the question is asked quite frequently and the Honourable the First Minister says that the conference that is proposed now will be one that will be able to make decisions.

I recall that I attended one that was able to make decisions but we still didn't get any decisions. We got only a short two-day conference and the Prime l\'Iin ister who had been very very emphatic about this subject in advance of the calling of the confer ence told us when we got there that he had just got us down to get our ideas, our views on these matters and that they would take them under consideration later on.

Now I gather that those have been in the process of consideration ever since and I recall of course t.hat there was a temporary arrangement made by telegram and that has been of some benefit, it is true, but I'd just like to ask the Honourable the First Minister once again does he really feel sure now that this conference is going to be held? He told us this a couple of sessions before that he thought they were about to get some definite answers on these matters that this province has been so concerned about. Is he really more hopeful now, or less hopeful? MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairman I think the Honourable Leader of the Opposition spent a prett-y profitable two days in Ottawa on that occasion. He did -- the arrangement that was made did provide several million dollars more yearly to the Province of Manitoba in the final outcome. But I'm not going to quarrel with his analysis of that particular meeting.

I doubt that he has correctly reported me -- when he at least gives me the impression that on previous occasions I made positive statements as to the outcome of the Provincial Treasurer's meetings that were held because I think it was recognized from the beginning that the great defect of those meetings was precisely the fact that they didn't have the Premiers and the Prime Ministers there except in the case when a man was holding a double portfolio and that was a burden of very vigor our complaint on our part, recognized from the start that unless we could get agreement that the prospect of getting approvals were not good.

I don't think we ever tried to minimize or disguise that fact and I am certain that at the meetings we made it as clear in as vigorous language as we could and in the correspondence that led up to those meetings just what our view on that poi:u.t was because there's no one that's more keen than I am to-have some improvement made in our tax rentals. Now it takes two to make a bargain and I'm only in a position to be able to speak for one half of the bargaining mechanism or perhaps that's overstating the case, one part of the bargaining machinery.

Now I don't control the other so I am unable to give my honourable friend any positive assurances at all about what will transpire. I can only tell him that to the best of our knowledge and understanding it is the intention of the Government at Ottawa to call a full conference in the summer for the purpose of reviewing the tax rental agreements and while I am not authorized to say this I have the impression that they are particularly concerned in arriving at the new arrangements that are required when the present agreement expires as it will the end of the next fiscal year. So I believe we will have the meeting.

Now as to what will come out of it and when the decisions will be reached that flow from that meeting time alone can tell. All I can say is that we're going to put up the most vigorous case we can for a prompt settlement of the points at issue, for an improvement in the tax rental plan just as soon as possible.

We want to maintain the basic standards on which our case rests, namely equalization and stabilization which I think are the two great considerations which must never leave the mind of a Provincial Treasurer in this province and we also are going to ask and I don't wish to refer to too much de tail now because as I say I intend to introduce the matter later on. We are also going to make certain requests as to what we think a correct division of the tax field is at the present time be tween the Province and the Dominion. Now what will come of it, of course it would be, I think idle for me to predict.

All I can say is that we are going to do our best to do justice to our re sponsibility in the matter. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I doubt if the statement just made by the First Minister is satisfactory to this House. This House will certainly remember, Mr. Chairman, that last March on the day that the Leader of the Opposition was to make his main address in reply to the Speech from the Throne the First Minister asked the privilege of the House to make a statement and that statement was on Dominion Provincial Conference and he took about half an February 9th, 1960 Page 367

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd.) ... hour of the time of the House and in the course of that statement he stated that it was imperative that a reconvening of the Dominion Provincial Conference would take place before the end of the year. And he assured the House that he will do his best to see that this conference would be reconvened and one of the matters that was urgent according to the statement was the fact that the effects of the cost price squeeze on the farmers could not be left to protracted consideration, it should be dealt with now, and that was in March last spring.

Now I am sure the Honourable member will remember also that last July, the Honourable the First :rviinister reported on his trip to Ottawa and I remember quite correctly because I read these words a few days ago, "I assure this House that even if I am alone I will endeavour to seek a reconvening of the plenary session before the end of this year", and the House felt that it had the assurance of the First Minister that he would do his utmost to have a new conference called. Now we know that he, as Provincial Treasurer, attended the conference.

It was not a plenary session I wonder if he has used all his power of -- not suggestion I haven't got the right word -- persuasion with his teacher, whether he has been unsuccessful, but we haven't yet -- this conference that was promised and I think this House is entitled to know whether the First Minister has certainly done everything that could be.done in order to have this conference held before the end of this last year, before the first of January, 1960 and I believe that he owes this House a statement to that effect because there was a definite promise, I assure this House the Honourable First Minister said both in March and in July and now he is telling you that he hopes that there will be a call to Ottawa, has he taken steps to see that there should be a call, has he tried to enlist the support qf the Western Premiers of the Prairie Provinces to press on Mr.

Diefenbaker the P. M. for a reconvening of the Federal-Provincial conference. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker I am very happy to read to the House the policy statement that I made on the 16th of Marcli. to which my honourable friend refers to, was made on the 16th of March about eleven months ago. He said our policy calls for (1), an immediate interim in crease in the equalized provincial share of the federal provincial tax arrangement using a.:s-a_� base 15% of personal income tax collections, 15% of corporate profits and 50% of the revenue that the former feder·al succession duties would have provided;

(2) Co-operation on the Trea surers' meeting and the Continuing Committee to develop a well prepared agenda leading to, (3) a full Dominion conference at an early date to deal with those matters of public finance and national economy that now demand action. That was our policy at that time. MR. PREFONTAINE: .... read the paragraph with respect to the situation of agri culture. That could not be left to protracted consideration. MR .

ROBLIN: Well my honourable friend can read it if he likes, there's several pages of statement here but I'm referring to not the argument leading up to the statement of the policy but the policy itself. So I' m quite prepared to assume that the arguments are good ones but the point that I'm trying to make is that this is our policy, it was our policy. My honourable friend remembers very well the statement in the House, I wonder if he remembers equally clearly the reports that reached the Press after this meeting was held in which I ex pressed the views of the Province of Manitoba.

I think we went into this thing quite thoroughly in our session of lastJuly, the July 15th meeting was the sixteenth or seventeenth meeting, reported on it fully in the House and I want to assure my honourable friend that I presented the case of this province in vigorous terms, in unmistakeable terms and if my honourable friend had been there I would think he would have been quite proud of the case put up for the Province of Manitoba.

We didn't take a back seat to anybody, we didn't repose on the fact that there are certain, perhaps one might e)qJect that there would be a certain tendency to mute the demand of the Province of Manitoba because we are afraid of hurting anyone's feelings in particular. Such was not the case. At that meeting that was held I think I can say without any exaggeration that the case presented by Manitoba was more vigorous than any other case presented. We were more specific in our requests and more insistent in having some action of a sort taken. I must say we didn't succeed, that's true.

But we did the best under the circumstances and in our meeting in July we did our very best to pin the federal authorities down to the fact that we should have a plenary session before the year ended so that we could incorporate the results in whatever budgets we were preparing for the fiscal year that is coming up. That plea was not accepted I regret to say, that is not to say that we did not make the very best case we knew how, to present the force and effectiveness of such a plea we did. And on that occasion I think we received a Page 368 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) ... little more support from the other Provinces than we had recelived on the first occasion, but I still maintain that the case presented by this Province was as vigor our as we possibly knew how to present it and that we didn't mince any words in dealing with this matter. Now as I explained in the House before we can say what we like and do what we like as best we can but we have no power to compel, it has to be a process of agreement and as I have stated we just simply haven't had that agreement to date.

I am very much looking forward to the meeting this summer because no one is more anxious than I am to have this matter solved advantageously for the Province of Manitoba and I really don't think that my honourable friend's implications that we have done anything less than our best in this matter or that our best has not been vigorous and worthy of the importance of the object, I really don't think those implied criticisms are justified and I decline to accept them. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I think that I was misunderstood, I never hinted or suggested, Mr.

Chairman, that the case for Manitoba was not well presented but I stated that the Prime Minister, the First Minister told this House in March that he would do his utmost to have a reconvening of the conference before the end of the year 1959 and I said that he told this House in July and I remember the words correctly, "[am quite sure, I assure this House that I will, even if I am alone, I will do my best to have the full plenary plePJpoten tiary meeting reconvened before the end of this year, before the end of this calendar year 1959", and I am asking you whether efforts were made to have this full plenary conference reconvened before the end of the year and I say that if he has not succeeded, 0.

K., but let us know. But I would say that if he hasn't succeeded that he should try and try again and I suggest to him that he should enlist the support of the other premiers of the other provinces and not only wait for the Prime Minister of Canada to invite Manitoba; Manitoba should press for immediate recon vening of the conference. MR. ROBLIN: I think my honourable friend has just repeated exactly what he said the first time.

Well he seems to have again saying, •Well you said you were going to do this did you do it?" Our answer is that we did it and I said it at some length and I don't think I want to say it again. The fact is that we have done our best to obtain this conference. Now he says, "What about enlisting the support of other provinces?" Well he must really think we're naive if he thinks that we haven't tried that, there are various ways in which one attempts to obtain that kind of support.

It's not the kind of a thing which as a general rule I care to commit to perhaps an official statement to other provinces but it is a matter which was canvassed at the time of the conventions very thoroughly with other provinces in Canada and I don't think that it would be proper for me on this occasion to give the reactions that I obtained from other Provinces, I think it would be improper for me to do so.

I can assure my honourable friend that speaking for myself and my own part we endeavoured to enlist as much support as we could from the other provinces in the country and I regret to say we did not get the kind of support that one might have hoped for in such a cause, we may be more fortunate later on. MR . E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Might I ask the Honourable the First JI.'Iinister that in the event that this conference Would be held in the near future that delegates from the Manitoba-Urban Association and Union of Manitoba· Municipalities would be included in the delegations? JY.ffi.

ROBLIN: Well that's a question that will be examined at the time. It has always been our policy to be in full communication with the representatives of those municipal organi zations and our stand on the matter particularly insofar as it affects municipal finances, is canvassed with them pretty thoroughly so that we can be certain that we are on common ground with them in dealing with these matters which are important to all of us. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I join with my colleague from Carillon in saying that we were not criticizing in raising this point.

We are not criticizing the presentation that the Honourable the First Minister made at the conference or conferences held that isn't the point. In ..fact I am sure that he would present the case very very well but the our concern is because he has said and what we. already knew that the First Minister said that we were not successful, we didn't get what we wanted, but that is the point. That's happened before with Manitoba, they didn't get what they wanted.

Now my question that I asked the very first time of the First Minister not in criticism of what he has been doing except that he was pretty hope ful that a plenary conference was going to be held and I was not trying to intimate that he had February 9th, 1960 Page 369

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) ... ever told the House that he thought the meeting of the Ministers of Finance, Provincial Treasurers would take the place of the Provincial Treasurers - would take the place of the Premiers and Prime Minister I didn't mean that at all.

What I was say ing was because they were not successful before what is the First Minister's opinion now of the likely prospects because the First Minister knows as well as anyone in this House that these agreements and payments under them are the backbone of our provincial revenues and we see this provincial revenues skyrocketing very very quickly and my submission is that we're certainly going to need, in the very near future, the very best -the. eJqJenditures are going up perhaps revenues too. The eJqJenditures are skyrocketing.

We hope the revenues are, but we are going to need the added sums that we're hoping to get from Ottawa in a very short time. Now my question simply was: "Is the Honourable the First Minister still hopeful that we're going to get some of these promises implemented that have been made by the Prime Minister in times past?" MR . ROBLIN: Yes, I'm hopeful that we'll meet this summer to s.ettle these matters. MR . CAMPBELL: How hopeful, is he hopeful of a successful conclusion this time? It hasn't been a successful conclusion before, the Honourable the First Minister has mentioned that.

Is he still hopeful that we're going to get some added revenues? .•....• ••... Continued on next page Page 370 February 9th, 1960

MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I wish to direct another question to the First Minister or the Treasurer and if it's not proper, he's quite welcome not to answer it. As we are not going to meet again before the conference will likely be held next July, has any consideration been given of pulling out of the conference in case this province does not get its just? I don't know whether it's a proper question or not. If it isn't, he doesn't need to answer i.t. MR. ROBLIN: I think the question is certainly a proper one, Sir. The answer would be that we do not intend to withdraw from the dominion-provincial conference.

We intend to negoti ate at it. We intend to negotiate hopefully and answering my honourable friend's last question, we are hopeful that we'll get some improved results. Time alone will tell but we're certainly going in there with a conviction that we are entitled to a better arrangement than we have at the present time and we are going to press as hard as we can to.get it. I would like to say though that I don't think any government in this province or any party in this province would willingly contemplate the abandonment of the present principles under which tax rental policies are made.

As I stated before the principles of stabilization and equalization that have been worked into those agreements are very valuable to us. We do not by any means think we have reached the end of the road in securing equitable treatment among all of the provinces in there. There are number of other matters that could very well be introduced of a more technical nature which would improve our position.

We intend to exploit some of those and I'll mention them at the time of the budget debate--at least some of them--but by and large, the present tax rental poli cy or philosophy is the best thing that's been thought of so far insofar as equalizing these tax · revenues are concerned and our aim is not to withdraw from it but to improve it. MR . PAULLEY: I think, Mr. Chairman, the last remarks of the First Minister are pro per ones to make. I doubt very much whether there's any party in Manitoba that would even consider it.

There may be some differences of opinion as to the approach on the question or how it should be worked out but insofar as the basic principle is concerned, I don't think there's any question of doubt that any party in the province at the present time would desire to remain in the agreement. I would just like to suggest this to the First Minister though. The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain made reference to the inclusion of consideration of the Ur ban Association and Union of Manitoba Municlpalities.

I wonder if the First Minister has giv en any consideration to the calling of a conference some time before a plenary session of the provincial-dominion is called, of all of the important--not that I'm minimizing the sum--and foremost organization in the province to get their viewpoints at a conference rather than by submitting statements or desires to the government. I have in mind say the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, municipal associations. I have in mind the farm organizations. I have in mind the chambers of commerce and other like organizations.

I'm wondering whether there might not be some value in a conference of that nature dealing with the very important subject of dominion-provincial relations prior to the First Minister or the minister in charge of this de partment of our government preparing his briefs et al�for presentation to a session of the full conference. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on that subject as well as municipal attendance I believe it was the policy of the former government to have members from the municipal groups go to the conference in ott awa.

Now were there consultants or members from either of the munici pal bodies at the last two conferences which my honourable friend went to? MR. ROBLIN: .••••. Mr. Chairman, I believe they were not invited by the terms of reference received from the Federal Government. That was not a plenary session. It was a session of Provincial Treasurers andwhile to some it might seem to be a distinction without a diff erence in some ways, nevertheless there is a very marked constitutional difference be tween the two.

However, what we did do in that event was to enter into consulations with the two groups; showed them our brief that we prepared to submit; and asked for their comment and endorsation. MR. ROBLIN: I think it's fair to·say that they agreed that they were with us in our pre- sentation. . MR . 1\I.IOLGAT: ·Now the conference that's to be called next summer is to discuss the new rental agreements when these expire. Or will it also discuss the present existing agree ments? Is that settled? MR. ROBLIN: No, that's not settled. I would say that my expectation wonld be that they February 9th, 1960 Page 371

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) . . would endeavour to regard the existing agreement as closed seeing it's about to expire, as far as time is concerned, and I imagine that the discussion will centre around the new ones. But that may not be the case. It remains to be seen. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 6. Passed. 4. Grants and Miscellaneous. MR. ROBLIN: Now, Mr. Chairman, there are a lot of items in these grants here and I think it's usually customary to inform the House as to the major ones--ones we have allocated. There's a certain residue that remains unallocated, waiting for development of events.

There's always people coming along afterwards who would like something. I'll deal with the cultural · grants first. Manitoba Museum Association, $5, 000. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the First Minister a question? Could he at the same time tell us whether this grant was given the previous year or not? MR. ROBLIN: Yes, yes, I'll be glad to. MR . PREFONTAINE: And if so, what's the difference this year? MR . ROBLIN: These grants, unless I specifically say so, --these grants are the same as last year. Manitoba Museum Association, $5, 000; Historic Sites Advisory Board was $3,000, is now $1,000.

That's based on an examination of the expenditures last year. That's the reason for the decrease. Men's Musical Club of Winnipeg $2, 000; Royal Winnipeg Ballet, $5, 000; Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, $7, 000.; Winnipeg Art Gallery, $6, 000; Manitoba League for the Blind, $100. I think that's mostly in an effort to secure sales tax exemption for that or ganization. Canadian Mental Health Association, $2, 000; Canadian Welfare Council, $3, 000; Salvation Army, $900; Last Post Fund, $250; Welfare Council of Greater Winnipeg, $2, 000; Manitoba Heart Foundation, $6, 000; Indian and Metis Training Centre, $4,000.

That's a new grant that last one. It's for the,Indian and Metis Training Centre operated in Winnipeg by the Greater Winnipeg Welfare Council. Boy Sco'.lts Association, $2, 500; Girl Guides Association, $2, 000; Common\vealth Parliamentary Association, $1,000. Last year we gave $3,000 to the International Botanical Congress because they were holding their international congress in Manitoba and in Canada this year, of course, they are meeting elsewhere so there's no grant for that.

Canadian Forestry Association, $4, 000; Manitoba Federation of Game and Fish As sociations, $3, 000; Canadian Highways Safecy Conference, $1, 200; Royal Canadian Humane Association, $100; Manitoba Federation of Fishermen, $2,000. That is a new grant. Canadi an Amateur Swimming Association, --this is another new grant--$350. That leaves the sum of $14,600 unallocated and it may be that some of these grants might be increased slightly. We have three or four applications before us which have not been fully considered.

It might indi cate an increased grant and we also have several applications for new grants which have not been made heretofor which have not yet been finally passed upon. All the facts are not before us so we do have an unallocated portion of $14, 600 which we hope will take care of those· and any . worthy ones that come to o:.rr attention before the next esti..i:Dates. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask on what basis these grants are awarded? MR.

ROBLIN: Well, that's a very good question because as my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition, I think will agree, it's very difficult to make sure that justice is done. One can only use one1s best judgment to get a hold of the organizations. They present to you their financial information and they present to you their reason for their existence and you have to form a judgment value as to what share of this money.should be allotted to them. And I'm not altogether certain that our allocation is perfect. I think probably another set of men doing it might change it around a little bit.

I wouldn't quarrel about that. We have, as I mentioned in the House, last year been trying to find a more satisfactory way of dealing with this thing. We have this summer in company with Mr. R. D. Turner--! visited the Canada Council people in Ottawa an:l we had quite a session with--what's his name?--the gentleman who runs it--he used to be President of our Universicy here--Mr. Truman, Dr. Truman, Dr. Albert Truman and members of their st1].ff. And we spent quite some time in trying to interest them as a mat ter of fact in some of o•1r problems here.

I don't know how successful we were, but we made the pitch as they say, and discussed this whole problem and we had been holding .conversations with the Manitoba Arts Council, with a view to enlisting their advice in this matter, and I may say that they had been kind enough to give us some suggested scale of values-"'-let's put it that way. It gives us a rule of thumb which we coald refer to in dealing with these allocations and Page 372 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) .• we have very carefully considered that because they represent a good many of these institutions, particularly the ones of a cultural nature, and have been of great help there. We have also been talking, since last July, with certain people with a view to try ing to set up an organization that might be entrusted with the job of allocating these funds--the thought being that the legislature might say, "well, here's so much money. You people allocate it in accordance with what you think the best interests of all concerned call for".

We haven't yet, I regret to say, although it's been going along for a number of months--we haven't yet come to any solid conclusions as to whether that's a good thing or not, Sir. It's still being dis cussed and it may be that nothing will come of it. One can't be sure. Maybe this may be the most practical way of dealing with it after all. It does, of course, require a great deal of time and consideration for what, in the scope of provincial expenditures, are small items, but nevertheless extremely important to the people concerned.

And we're anxious to come as close to justice as we can with the means at our disposal. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may, ...... one of the reasons that caused me to ask the question--! don't want anybody to misunderstand me. But Kuch of the Free Press is very good at making cartoons of my honourable friend--as indeed he did it with the Leader of the Opposition and myself--clothed in boy scout uniform. He does that quite frequently and he does a very, very good job of it too. I didn't jot down all of the-- MR. CAMPBELL: We are good material for him. MR. PAULLEY: Oh, we are.

We can't say that, though otherwise, but I didn't jot down all of the figures of the allocations of these monies and I don't want it to be misunderstood, but I did note that there was an item of $5, 000 to the Winnipeg Ballet--! believe that was the figure- of $5,000 to the Winnipeg Ballet and the sum of $2,500 to the Boy Scouts. Now it appears to me on the surface, --and in this I may be wrong because I'm not too great a follower of the bal let. I don't know whether or not, quite frankly, Mr.

Chairman, whether, since the perform ance they put on for Her Majesj;y last summer, whether they've had any endeavours since. That's just my impression. But it does seem to me--it does seem to me that the general work that is being done by the Boy Scouts Association and the Girl Guides should warrant a closer relationship of the allocation.

It seems to me that with the amount of work it's doing--the Boy Scouts and the Girl Guides-- are doing as comparedto the other, --and I'm not trying to pickon the Ballet--please don'tanyone get that impression--but, just on the basis of the amounts of grants-- it does seem to me that there might be a change of consideration of some other method. I appreciate very much the remarks of the Honourable the First Minister that things of this na ture are very, very difficult.

But by comparison, just to me as an individual, it seems that had the scales been tipped the other way around, a greater number of people in the Province of Manitoba would receive a greater benefit. MR. PREFONTAINE: In view of the fact that there's still in the pot from last year, some $14, 000 if I understood-- MR. ROBUN: Pm sorry; I didn't say that, Mr. Chairman. In this appropriation we're voting now, there's an unappropriated balance of $14,000. MR. PREFONTAINE: Pardon me, I did not understand you correctly.

I would like to say--make a suggestion to the Honourable the First Minister and this is it; the First Minister is ·debating in his own mind, the possibility of having an independent committee or commission or board to decide on these grants. Well, I would like to suggest to him that possibly in order to prevent any accusations that these grants are given on a political basis of some kind, that he should possibly include a couple of good Grits on this committee. I'm not preaching for a call, of course, at all. I wouldn't consider it a bit.

But it might be because, you know it's very pleasant for a generous government to come out and hand out a $5,000 grant to the Fisher men's Association or to the Winnipeg Ballet. You make good friends that way for the govern ment. And in order to avoid any criticism along those ltnes, I think my suggestion is a good one that the committee which llJ,ight be fOrmed should include members of the CCF Party and of the Liberal PartY. · · . . · MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I have no particular diff erence with the First Minister with regards to the matter of allocations.

I agree with him that it's difficult to decide if the Ballet should get $5,000 and the Symphony $7,000 or vice versa. I do think, however, that the amount of money which this province is prepared to spend this year and what they spent last February 9th, 1960 Page 373

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) .. year and the year before is woefully inadequate. I think it's the mark of a mature country that they do spend large amounts of money for cultural projects. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the government should pay the whole cost. I don't say that I nec essarily agree with the Honourable Member for Wellington with what he said the other night when he suggested that possibly business could be induced to pay a good deal more than they have.

But I found, to my surprise, there is something I agree with him on and that is what he said'the other night, and that is that cultural projects such as the Symphony Orchestra, such as the museum, do need much greater support than they have had in this country. Now coun tries like Great Britain and the European countries which are much poorer than we are in terms of per capita wealth, have for generations spent substantial amounts of money for projects like· symphony orchestras and museums and so on.

One only needs to take a very short walk over to see the quarters of the Art Gallery or the museum, which I think are a disgrace in a province of this size and a city the size of Winnipeg, to realize how much needs to be done. Now, I'm not suggesting that the Provincial Government should put unlimited sums of money into this or that they should pick up the whole cost, but I would hope to see, if not this year, that in the very near future, that this government give consideration, in co-operation with these organizations, to the establishment of proper facilities with proper staff.

Now, I realize that there is another source of revenue, that the Canada Council does give money for some of these projects, but my understanding is that the money which they give is contingent on the organization's finding other sources of revenue. And I do think, Mr. Chairman, this is not really a major criticism, but I do appeal to the government to--if it's too late for this year, for next year--to give some real serious consideration to helping these organizations be. put on a real sound foundation with ade quate sites, adequate building and adequate staff.

Because certainly the museum and the Art Gallery are not a credit to this city or this province. And I think they're a part of the total pic- ture in educating both the students and the adults in this province. · MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, did the First Minister mention a fishermen's or ganization that gets $2, 000? And if so, what was the name? I didn't quite catch it. MR . ROBLIN: The Manitoba Federation of Fishermen. MR. GUTTORMSON: Is this the fishermen's organization that's being organized under the Fisheries Branch? MR. FOBLIN: No, I think one of the other ministers might answer that one.

I'm not- HON. C. H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines & Natural Resources)(The Pas): Yes, that is correct. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, just something I didn't understand. I heard the First Minister say that for c,anadian Mental Health, $2,000. Is that the same amount that was given last year, please ? MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, ( would like to make a suggestion. It seems that each year we have a fair amount of discussion on these grants. The First Minister is obliged to read to us the list of people who got, ancl who didn't get.

Would it be possible simply to have a mimeographed sheet in the future--just outlining this and the members could get it before hand? I don't ask that it be detailed in the Estimates Book but a mimeographed sheet would solve the whole thing ·and we could see then any changes that were made. Now, I wouldn't ask the First Minister to outline--to go into detail on all of those that he's listed to us today, but where there are new grants made, if the House could be told what these organizations are and briefly what they do, I think it might be of value to the members.

For example, this Indi ans and Metis Training School--! am interested in the subject, but unfortunately I don't know what particular training school this refers to. And if that could be done, I think it would be helpful to us. MR. ROBLIN: Yes, I would be glad to give a word about that, Mr. Chairman. As you know, a great number of people, including this government, have been rather concerned about the plight of Manitobans of Indian ancestry who have been coming into the City of Winnipeg .and at our request.

And! think I'm correct on this--at our request, the Greater Winnipeg Welfare Council .undertook to seewhatcould be done to assist those people to become, to coin a phrase, integrated into tlie community a little better--to give them a little self-confidence and to -give them some sort of anchor to which they could attach themselves while getting established in the city. And as a result of that enquiry, the Welfare Council proposed that a friendship centre-- Page 374 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) •• I used the wrong word--it is misspelled here--it should be a friend ship centre was established, to which the Welfare Council, I believe, give $4, 000; the Domini on Government gives $4, 000; and the Provincial Government gives $4, 000. Now I believe this is a two-year experimental effort, to see how it works out and this, I believe, is our first con tribution to this particular endeavour. Now, we haven't yet any definitive report as to how it's going to work, but the information we get so far is that it seems to be quite a helpful thing.

And if it serves th.e purp<>se and particularly if it develops into the kind of thing the Manitobans of Indian ancestry can run themselves, with perhaps the minimum of guidance and little financial support, then we'll be very happy about it. As far as I can tell at the moment, it's coming along fairly well. Now; are there any other questions on this?�.l'll answer them all at once. Ifthere are any further-- -- MR. PAULLEY: •. .••. if I may, Mr. Chairman, of the remarks. Is this the community project in reference to the Indians· and Metis that reference was made to in the Throne Speech? MR. ROBLIN: No. MR.

PAULLEY: There's another one as well , eh? MR. MOLGAT: The only other one that I would ask a question about and this is one that has been on the list for some years, is the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Now, I believe my honourable friend the First Minister was at a conference in Australia this year and I'm not sure if i.tts this association or not. I think it might be of advantage to the House if he could report on that conference at this time, unless he intends to do so af another time during the session. MR. ROBLIN: Any other points? De aling with the point, Mr .

Chairman, I'm hopeful of telling the members something about the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association when we- ! hope to provide an opportunity for a full dress debate on the matter. With respect to the remarks of the Member for st. John's respecting a government pat ronage of cultural activities, he strikes a very responsive cord with me .

In spite of the fact that I will come under some critical observation for giving away the public money or frittering it away for such pointless activities, I myself feel that they are worthwhile and I can say, with out .wishing to make any unkind reflections on previous donations, that the list presented both last year and this year, is considerably larger than it was before. It's a question of balance; one has to be careful to try and allocate these things properly and opinions differ.

I'm quite willing to admit that the changes we've made have certainly not been of a revolutionary charac ter; they have been based on what has been done before, although a little more. Now regarding this matter of good Grits--there aren't many. That's been my impressi on. Yes, that's been my impression, --not very many. That's posing me quite a problem but there may be some merit in it. There's one good Grit that I've been talking to quite a lot on this thing and I very much value the advice and assistance he has given me and it may be pos sible that we can make use of that gentleman's services.

I think my honourable friend knows who I mean. Well, I'll tell you afterwards. I don't like to bandy his name about in public. Then we come down to Scouts versus the Ballet. You know I'm thinking of writing a let ter to the editor of the Free Press. !know the cartoon my honourable friend refers to. It showed a number of us in the very fine uniform of the Boy Scouts Association. My honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition and I think I even recognized some of my honourable col leagues in that picture. But, Mr . Chairman, did you see the caption that was written under neath? They talked about a "pack".

Well, I'm going to report them to the Boy Scout Associa tion. That's a "troup", not a "pack". Packs are for cubs and there are no cubs in this House. Or is that a rash statement? However, I must say that I like those cartoons. I'm rather flat tered to be described in that way. But I don't think rriy honourable friend's criticism is really to the point--or suggestion--! won1t cal1 it criticism, because one has to consider the very dif ferent nature of the two organizations.

By and large, the Boy Scout movement supports itself and always has, and it is very successful atit, and .they have asked for this. money because they wanted some assfstance in extending their activities into the ;remoter a:reas of the province where they didn't have the same opportunity to be self-supporting as they have in the more densely settled areas--lone scouts up north and an that kind_of thing. Actually, I think I am correct in relying on my memory in this case. The amount put down to them was not far from what they suggested would be appropriate. - -- February 9th, 1960 Page 375

(Mr. Roblin, cont1d.) .. Now in the case of the Ballet, it's quite another thing altogether. For one reason or another, it is not really a self-supporting organization. It requires very hand some subsidies from interested citizens in this area which it gets, and the amount that we have allocated to them is nothing like what they feel would be more suitable, under the circumstances. So while I think it is perfectly proper that my honourable friend should raise the point, I really do think that the disparity between the two types of grants is not as great as might appear at first' glance. MR.

PAULLEY: Once again, Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend has gone off on a tan gent which hasn't answered my question at all. I tried to make it perfectly plain that I was not knocking the Ballet at all. 1\ffi. ROBLIN: I didn't say you were knocking the Ballet. MR. PAULLEY: No, you didn't, but the point I was raising was the basis on which the grants were arrived at. And my suggestion was that in my humble opinion there was a number who may be better off as the result of a grant to the Boy Scouts, maybe greater than say that in respect of the Ballet. That was all. I was not trying to belittle the Ballet •.

But the point that I did raise as it appeared to me in respec t of them, that l--and I don't know if anybody would care to answer--! mentioned the fact that I saw the--that the Ballet was in action after the Queen was here and I haven't seen it since. I may be wrong in that. I'd like to know. The First Minister may be in a better position to know whether there's been �performance since. I'm no_t aware of it.

And again I say that I think--and I think I am entitled to my opinion irresp ective of whe ther the Boy Scouts only ask for $200 or $2, 000--that by comparison of the two, there seems to be a disparity in the amounts. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, seeing as everybody has been giving advice, I think that we should suggest to the Honourable the First Minister that he shouldn't antagonize the Free Pres s. Beca:1se I for one would sooner--much sooner-- be pictured as a Boy Scout as a ballet dancer. I think that would open a new field. I'd be careful. MR. PRE FONTAINE: Mr.

Chairman, I think that I didn't hear the First Minister mention that there was a grant for Le Cercle Moliere. I know that in the past Le Cercle Moliere has been given small grants and members know that Le Cercle Moliere has been representing this province all over Canada and has won awards for its performances and I wonder if Le Cercle Moliere has asked for another little grant to assist them this year or whether this grant has been refused if they have asked for it. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, what my honourable friend says is quite right. I remem- ber enjoying very much the ... ... last year.

I kon't know what they're performing this year. Yes, the government has received a request from Le Cercle Moliere for a grant of some $500, I think to assist them in their western tour. The matter is under consideration and .I have f!en t an interim reply to them, but it hasn't finally been settled at the present time . But that's an or ganization which I think we could well afford to support. MR. PREFONTAINE: !h ope the First Minister will take it under sympathetic consideration. MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) : Mr.

Chairman, beforewe leave item 4, I am a little concerned about the reduction in the grants for historical sites. Now I know in the municipality of West Kildonan they have been trying to restore the John Inkster Home and I believe they have made a request to the government fur assis tance in doing this. I would just like to hear the First Minister explain just why the amount has been reduced to $1,000 this year. Surely w� have;11t got our historical sites up to scratch yet. MR.

ROBLIN: The amount has been reduced because, according to my information, the Historical Sites Board to whom this is paid have an unexpended balance in their accounts from previous years 1 operation. By my honourable friend brings up a point which I find very diffi cult to deal with.

There are a number of relatively ancient buildings in the province, certain historic sites of one sort or another like the one that he mentioned, that one might very well like to preserve and yet there are quite a number of them, some of which r�quire very large sums of money in_!! e ed, and it's a little difficult to see how they can all be fitted into the pro gram.

It is a problem, and I think we have to look to the public to a large extent for th� money to support those various kinds of bodies, because once you take one under your wing then the rest have a pretty good claim to come under it too, and when you add them all up you get a sum which I think the House would probably regard as a little bit high. So we've had to move very Page' 376 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. Robli.n, cont'd. ) •• carefull y indeed in taking that kind of an historic site under our wing insofar as financial support is concerned. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, is/ this the right item urtder which to discuss historical sites because I had gathered that it came later on--(interjection)--so I understand I am not rais ing any point of order, There are a couple of questions I would like to ask in that regard but I was thinking that under (

d) of the next item perhaps was the proper one. MR. ROBLIN: I rather think this is not the place to discuss it. I would suggest under the Provincial Secretary's salary. He is the one that administers the problem so far as the govern ment is concerned. This just happens to be a consoli.dationof grantshere. That1s whyyou see it. MR. CHAIRMAN: •••••• grants and miscellaneous , $75, 000. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman; before we read the matter of grants, in deciding what grants to give does the province take into consideration the grants that have been given out by, say the Canada Council, and does it assist where the Canada Council does not assist? Or what is the procedure? I realize it i.s a difficult point but there are some gro-.1ps who make applicati on to Canada Council and because of the rules that are set up under the Canada Council can not get a grant, and yet who may be very worthy.

Now if the province takes the attitude that they will accept the recommendations that Canada Council gives that the province would be entitled to give too, then that may leave these groups out. Now what is the relationship there between the two? I realize that my honourable friend mentioned that he was considering a provincial body that would do something of the sort of work that Canada Council does.

I think this would be excellent and would get away from what must no doubt be an extremely diff icult problem from the government standpoint and possibly end up with a better allocation of funds to these 'groups, because there i.s that constant problem between sources of funds elsewhere and pro vincial sources . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if this is the right place to ask this.

Last year it was mentioned in this House that, I think that the Provincial Government was waiting for some help or assitance from the Federal Government to move the First Covent of the Grey Nuns--it was supposed to become a museum. I think there was some talk by the late Honour able Marcel Boulic last year. Is there anything new on that at all? MR. ROBLIN: I hope this will clean the matter up, Mr. Chairman. On the Grey Nuns problem, I think my colleague the Provincial Secretary will be able to say a word about that when he comes to his estimates.

With respect to the Canada Council, we do not use their jud ment as our guide in this matter. Wbat we sim ply do is to ask the people concerned to give us a statement of their financ ial situation and their budget, including income from any body such as the Canada Council and we have to use our best judgment as to whether we should supplement that or not. But whether or not a person comes under Canada Council really has little bearing as to whether or not they come under our wing as well.

I think we find that Canada Council is pretty well limited to a few major organizations and that should by no means disbar the others that have perhaps a very high local value. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is •..•.. passed? Appropriation 5, Libraries and Historical Research (

a) Provincial Library. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education)(Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, before proceeding I think perhaps it would be advisable if I gave the members of the committee some information concerning the operation of the Legislative Libraries in the province. It has been traditional that the Minister of Education is the minister in charge of library services. First with respect to staff, I should like to point out that in the fis cal year 1958-59 there were seven positions and seven persons employed.

In the year 1959-1960, which is the current year, there are eight positions all of which are fill ed. That was an increase of one from the year previous . For the up-coming fis cal year, 1960-61, we are asking, and if these estimates are approved there will be nine positions, a further increase of one. There are-- MR. CAMPBELL: May I ask the Honourable Minister at that point, does that cover all of the items a, b, c, and d? MR. Mc LEAN: Well now if you'll just give me a second I'll get over the territory.

We are also responsible for the Health and Welfare Library in which there are three positions, all fi lled, and there has been no change in ,that establishment for quite a number of years. And the archives, in which there is one position and there has been no change for quite a number of Febru�y 9th, 1960 Page 377

(Mr. McLean, cont'd .) .. years. That covers the salary items in a(1), b(1), and d(1) . While speaking about the staff, I would just like to express my personal appreciation to the Legislative Librarian, Miss Morley, who also holds the position of Director of Librarie s, for her devotion to duty and for the very fine way in which all the members of the staff have dis charged their duties during the past year. , During the year 1959, four new regional libraries came into operation. They had been ap proved by a vote of their respective voters in the year 1958, but only began opera tion in 1959.

These regional librarie s were Boissev ain and Morton, which for the purpose of inf ormation I might say has a population according to the official statistics of 22, 836; the regional library of Lakeland with a p0pulation of 3, 619; the regional library known as the Southwestern Regional Library, 2, 133 ; and the Virden-Elkhorn Library with a population of 6, 446.

The last library is of interest because it marks a new departure, or not a new departure in a sense, but a new me thod of providing regional library services in that it has a central library and one branch lib rary, the central library being in the town of Virden and the branch library in the town of Elk horn. I am happy to report to the committee that it is working very satisfactorily. • In October, 1959, there were votes held in three proposed regional library districts . In two cases the votes fail ed.

Those were in proposed libraries at the town of Minnedosa and two, I believe, municipalities and in the case of Swan River. One of the places in which a vote passed, namely, East Kildonan, including North Kildonan, the majority of vot ers approved the formation of the regional library in all of the municipal corporations concerned, but unfortunately there was an error in the legal technicalities with respect to one of the muni cipalities,, which at the mome'nt prevents that proposed regional library from being fo rmed. The House, Mr.

Chairman, may be asked later, I understand, to approve the formation and the establishment of that library, not withstanding the def ect in the legal technicalities concerned. That, however, if it comes , will come in the nature of a private bill and I mention it only now to indicate that there is a possibil ity of one further regional library being formed as the result of a vote held in the year 1959. There were no new city libraries or municipal libraries for med during the .year 1959.

During the past year the Director of Library Servic es has continued to provide training for those who are going to be engaged in the work of the librarie s, the librarians in the regional librarie s--in the case of last year the four that I have just mentioned. And a very fine co-opera tive system has been worked out for book purchasing and for the cataloguing and selecting of books, which is done on behalf of the libraries, and at their request by the Director of Librar ies and her staff.

In addition, the Direc tor of Libraries together with Miss Perrin, a member of the staff of the Legislative Library--Provincial Library--give supervision to the regional li braries and make regular visits to them. The problem of securing trained librarians has continued. It is a field in which there ap pear to be relatively few people taking the necess ary training, and there is a shortage of train ed librarians.

We do what we can in that regard because we have generous bursaries which are available through the Department of Education for those 'who would like to take advanced degree work i.n library training, but during the past year for example, that is the current year, no one has come forward to claim any part of that money. I should like to sa y, Mr. Chairman, that the Manitoba Library Associ ation has been active and that we have appreciated their co-operation and assi stance and their interest in the advance ment of library work in the province.

And of course the Library Advisory Board, which is a statutory board provided for under the. Public Libraries Act, has been active, and again I should like to express my appreciation of the interest they have shown in the general work of libraries in the province. Under this same branch, as is ind icated by the printed estimates, comes the archives and historical research and the work of the Manitoba Historic al Society. They have had a number of interesting observances during the year 1959 of historical events, annivers aries in the pro vince--in the life and the history of the Provinc e of Manitoba.

I would particularly like to di rect the attention of the members 'of this commi ttee to a very useful little bookiet which is pub- lished by the Manitoba Historical Society ,_ called, "The Manitoba Pageant" and to recom- mend to every member of this committee that you secure a subscription because it contains many good articles both for children and adults, and I am certain that the members would be indee d very interested in it. Page 378 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) •• Going just over the itemS-beginning at the top, and again with resp ect to salaries, the position added last year in the department--in the branch was a clerk typist JI and the position which we are hoping to establish if these estimates are approved for the coming fiscal year is an additional librarian I for work in the Legislative Library. In the item of supplies it includes $15, 000 to continue our microfilming program under which we are microfilming the newspapers that are part of the library supply. This is the se cond year of the program.

Last year the committee and House approved $1 5, 000 for this pur pose and we are asking for a similar amount to continue that program this year. This is to pre serve the newspap·ers before they disintigrate, owing to age and also, of course, a very practi cal item that if microfilmed they take up much less space. We have reached a point where un less we microfilm, or if we don't. do quite a· good deal of microfilming, it will be necessary to find additional storage space which would be rather expensive. Under that same item we have of course the periodicals and subscriptions to which the library subscribes.

There is one item of $1, 965.98 for new books which, generally speaking, cover the fields of political science, poli tical parties, economics, biography, labour, local government and history. That item also con tains some small items which are related to the promotion of regional libraries. In the depart mental libraries, we have only a small amount of money for the purchase of books --$5, 000, be cause the departments, primarily the Department of Health and Welfare provides either the per-. iodicals or books required on their own.

I might just mentio:J. to the committee very quickly the grants paid during the 1959-60 fiscal year which are the same as will be paid during the up-com ing fiscal year, the basis of grants being the same, namely, $2, 000 per library for city and mu nicipal with additional $1, 000 for each branch or bookmobile, and $2, 000 for each municipality participating in a regional library. Winni peg receives $7, 000; St. Boniface $3, 000; St. James $2, 000; St. Vital $2, 000; Fort Garry $2, 000; Brandon $2, 000; Dauphin $2, 000; Flin Flon $2, 000; and Transcona $2,0 00. These are all of the municipal city libraries .

Then the regional librar ies are Boissevain and Morton with two municipalities, their annual grant being $4, 000; Glen wood-Souris with two municipalities, their grants being $4, 000; Lakeland with two municipalit ies, $4, 000; Russell and district library with two municipalities $4, 000; Southwestern Manitoba with two municipalities, $4, 000; and the Virden-Elkhorn library with three municipalities re ceiving $6 ,0 00, for a total of $50, 000 grants. Es tablishment grants are $10, 000 for regional libraries.

There are, with the exception of the possibility of the Kildonan library, none formed actually in the year 159-160, but an item has been placed in the estimates in anticipation that there will be further libraries established in the year 1960. In the Archives Branch, as I have indicated, there's one person full time--the archivist. One of the clerks attached to the library itself spends one half of her ti.rpe. working with the ar chivist and the salary for that is actually included under (a) (1) .

I might just mention here that the archivist gave an excellent review, some of you may have had the privilege of see ing it, of the history of the various Lieutenant-Governors of the Province of Manitoba, at the time of the recent swearing in of His Honour the Honourable Errick F. Willis as the Lieutenant Governor of the province. In the historical resea rch section, the grants referred to are as follows : Manitoba His torical Society, $3, 000; Manitoba Library Association, $75; Canadian Library Association, $500; and the St. Boniface Historical Society, $200.

I have made referenc e to The Manitoba Pageant which is published by the Manitoba Historical Society. May I also just remind the com mittee that that society with the assistance of the grants that are provided by the province and the monies which they themselves raise, have a project which they have been spor:sor ing now for a number of years of fostering the study of ethnic group history. Two have been published- one, "In Search of Utopia", a study of the Mennonites in Manitoba by Dr. E. K. Francis, and "The Ukrainians in Manitoba" by Professor Paul Usick. Both of those have already been pub li shed.

Other studies being completed and considered for publication are the follo'Wing: "The French Story", by R. Lesard; "The Icelandic Study" to be made by Mr. Wil liam Christianson; "T!le Jewish Study" by Rabbi A. Chiel; "The Polish Study" by Dr. B. T ...•.. " and "The Hut tarian" by Dr. Peters.

This is an important work which the Manitoba Historical Society pro motes and in which the monies provided by the province are of some assistance--(in terjection)- Well, the Scots speak for themselves without really too much attention, and anyway, they wouldn't approve the expenditure of monies for citing their history. · February 9th, 1960 Page 379

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) .. Now, Mr. Chairman, my apologies to the committ ee. I wanted to give t;p.at information and I am certain there will be many questions and I'll be glad to answer them i.f I can. :MR. POW: Mr. Chairman, I was very in terested in the remarks of the Honourable Min ister in regards to, particularly public and regional libra ries. I, . too, would like to add to his remarks, words of praise and congratulations to the Provincial Librarian, Miss Morley. We, in the western part of.

Manitoba, from his remarks; have shown some init iative in. that the re gional libraries in Manitoba as recently formed, are formed mostly in western Mani toba. And I would li.ke to add words of praise, Sir , to this House and ,committee that I feel that possibly that we are missing out in not advertising the advantages of the regional librar ies, particularly to smaller communities. I may not altogether agree with the Honourable Minister of Education in everything, but in this I am in very hearty accord.

I am somewhat disa ppointed that the es tablishment grants are only to establi sh three regional librarie s, but I feel sure that i.f there are more within the province, that these grants could be added to as soon as they show willing ness to come into the picture. If there is any doubt in the minds of the members of this commit tee as to advantages of regional libraries within the rural communities, I would like to have and invite them to come into the constituency of Turtle Mountain, i.f you wi ll, and I will show them two libraries that are outstanding in the province.

I think I can go further and include the Sourts Glen wood and Melita. They are recently-established libraries and are serving a very wonder- ful field--a very wonderful service to the reading public. More and more each day the results, as _will be shown when the reports come down, that they have expanded to a degree that is al most amazing, in the smaller places, the number of books that are being circulated. I don't know whetb,ilr I would be out of place, Mr.

Min ister, in suggesting to the House the changes that you and I talked about, but for the record I would like to point out that there are two thi.ngs in financing that works into the finan ces of regional libraries that I think the possibilitie s of con sideration should be given. In the Libr aries Act there i.s one clause, and! haven't got the Act here to give you the sections, but in one clause it says that the budget of the regional library should be presented to the counc ils or parties that are in agreement with the library in Nov em ber for presentation to the council.

Now those of you that have been in municipal work will rea lize that municipal elections are held in October--new members are appointed i.n October, but they don't sit 'ti.ll January and I am suggesting that that part of the Act should be changed to read "on the statutory meeting first Tuesday in January".

The other one is a little more --it hurts the financial end of the libra ries a little more inasmuch as --you have followed the Honourable Minister in his remarks oil grants --the establishm ent grants -- the $2, 000 per municipali ty --and there is a statutory levY that is voted on by the various munici paliti es involved of one mill, or there is a formula that works out in regards to which is the greater or lesser depending on the bigger municipali ty.

But the Act says that the report of the library shall be furnished to the minister on or before the 31st of January and it is on the basis of that report that the minister recommends that the grant be approved, Now that would mean, Sir, that the grant is possi ble - that the grants could be three or four months into another year of the money that is actually spent in the librar ies .

And I am suggesting , Sir, and as I talked to the Minister -and I am doing this for a matter of record not for a matter of cri ticism -that I think consideration of the Act being changed so that it could be an . earlie r date, because these libraries do work on a very minimum budget and if they had the money available within the calendar year it would assist their financing greatly.

And, Sir, I sit down with again praise for the Mi nister and to his staff in the forma tion of these libraries and the suggestion that possi bly some greater means of advertising should go out into the rural areas to make the public aware of the advantages and benefits of these librarie s. • ....•..... ..... continued on next page •. Page 380 February 9th, 1960

:MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I direct a question to the :Minister ? And before doing this I Wish to subscribe to every word he has said about the librarian . I don't think there is another department in this building that is more willing to serve and advise and find material for the members and others than the staff and the librarian . A MEMBER: Hear ! Hear I :MR . GRAY: My question is this, has he any record as to the circulation of better books in the province in all libraries in charge of this Province .

In other words with the tele vision and the millions of pocket books now being sold and the comic figures getting heavier from day to day, whether there are still the same readers and the same circulation as s-ay it was two or three years ago? :MR . N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister suggested I believe that under item (5) 1. Salarie s that there were nine employees receiving the sum of $35 , 07 0. In 1959 it appears in the Estimates that there were six employees receiving $17,4 10. Now that is more than double in dollars the amount paid two years ago.

I know that there are plenty of people in this Province that would suggest that more and more people want less and less to do the same amount of work and I am wondering, is it a fact, the statement that I have just made ? figure ? :MR . MC LEAN: W hat is that second figure again, Mr. Chairman? .:MR . SHOEMAKER: I didn't get the question . :MR . McLEAN; Yo.u took the figure of.$35-,.070 and compared it to what :MR . SHOEMAKER : In 1959 under. the same item six employees recei ving $17,4 10. :MR . MC LEAN: May I ask where you get that other figure ? :MR . SHOEMAKER: In the 1959 Estimates. :MR .

MCLEAN: I' m afraid I haven't got the other -- however, I can't answer that particular question . I can only say that the figures of staff that I have given are the members of the staff that we have . $35 , 070 is the payment, expected payment to nine membere of the staff in the Legislative Library that includes the pay scale which was improved by the Legis lature last year and the annual increments that are a part of that scale . :MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, it might help the member out if there is one little correction made in the Estimates of 1959 .

The salary of the Provincial Librarian and the Director of Li brary Services were separate from the item mentioned by the Honourable Member from Gladstone which would account for one at -least to bring it up to seven and also then would bring up the figure to about $23, 000 - so there is one step there . :MR . GRAY: Will you give an answer to my question, Mr. :1\'Iinister. :MR . DAVID ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr.

Chairman, as a person who uses the Library facilities in this building now and who used it long before I was a member, I certainly can add my appreciation to the work done by l\'Iiss Morley and the whole staff. Nothing one asks them to do seems to be too much and how l\'Iiss Morley can add the job of promoting libraries outside this library to the other work that she does, I don't know. Now, Mr.

Chairman, as a member from Winnipeg I suppose I could be parochial and question the grant of $7 , 000 to the city of Winnipeg as compared with 250 or more thousand people as compared to $2, 000 to some of the small municipalities which the l\'Iinister has mentioned. But I certainly have no intention of doing that and my criticism, if it can be called a criticism, is that what I consider the very slow rate at which we are moving in this direction.

One can hardly pick up a magazine or a book in recent months in which we aren't told we are falling behind in the western world in the progress of educating the pedple as compared to what is being done in other parts of the world. And I think the process of education doesn't end when young people finish grade eleven or even when they finish university -- I think the process continues and one of the most important fac tors of education is the provisi on of adequate books to people .

Now I think the experience in Winnip eg and the experience in the areas which the Miillster has mentioned already is that where libraries are established and where they have adequate supplies of books that the people Will make use of these librarie s. I' m not suggesting it should be the responsibility of the Pro vincial Government to pay the whole cost and I ani certain that municipalities which are already, whi ch have already established libraries will continue to support them, and other municipalities can be irid.uced to begin the work. But, Mr. Chair man.

I think.the money whi ch we expend inthis February 9th, 1960 Page 381

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) •.• field is completely inadequate to do the job which requires to be done; and I am certain that if we were to look at this problem as seriously as we did the prob lem of education that we would approach it in much the same method. I am not suggesting for a moment that the amount of money that is required for libraries would compare except in a very small extent with the amount that we are spending for general educational purposes . But I am. satisfied Mr.

Chairman that $84, 000 will certainly not do the job and I appeal to the Min ister as I did last year to have a look at this matter not today because I am certain we are not going to make any major changes today, but to have a look at this matter; to talk to the people in the 1ibrary association; to have some surveys done; and to really get down to the job of help ing municipalities which have no library facilities both urban and rural to begin; and to help those which have libraries to a standard service .

And I am one who believes that just as pro vincial grants in education help but they also got the local school districts to put in more money of their own that much larger grants by the province would induce the local municipalities to get on with the job of providing really adequate library facilities for their citizens . MR. MCLEAN: Mr. Chairman, referring to the list in reverse order to the matters that have been mentioned, the Honourable Member for St. Johns has referred to the slow rate at which we are moving in the matter of establishing libraries.

I cannot help but just make this comment that in the Province of Saskatchewan where they have a somewhat more extensive arrangement, they have only one regional library in that province. I am known as a big spender insofar as the services of the Province of Manitoba is concerned. I will be glad to speak to the Provincial Treasurer about getting some more money for library services . In answer to the question of the Honourable Member for Inkster, I haven't with me the records of circulation for any period of years. I have it for the year 1959 for most of the lib raries in the Province of Manitoba.

For example in Winnipeg the number of registered borrow ers 48,7 75, the circulation 1, 345, 045 books. Not to weary the Committee with all of the details, to pick out for example Souris with a population -- that is, a population so far as the library is . concerned -- of 2, 748, they had 942 registered borrowers and a circulation of 16, 32 2. These figures when one considers for example that the total population of Winnipeg is 255, 000 accord ing to these figures, 48, 000 registered borrowers does not seem like a very large number .

It's interesting to note here that my own town of Dauphin has the largest proportion, almost one-half of the population are registered borrowers from the library. That seems to be larger than the others throughout the Province but I would suggest to the honourable member that I think probably the librarian could give him the figures that he has asked for because I am certain these reports are available for previous years and the comparison could quite easily be made.

Now the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, I think he has made some good points concerning financing although I have the feeling that perhaps there may be a misunderstanding about the presentation of the budget. That budget does not require any action by the council and it's a matter of record really and I assume that those who framed the Act in the beginning thought it would be advisable to have it filed in November so that it would be there in good time for such perusual as the council might wish to give it. However, we are certainly willing to look at that.

The payment of grants, I am again not too certain that there is any real problem here because the grants cannot be paid until after the 1st of April in any event . They can't be paid until the Estimates are passed so that it would seem to me that having the statement required upon which the grants are payable filed by January is sufficient. However, again we are more than willing to look at that.

Now I have the feeling that we have done -- and when I say we I don't mean just those of us who are on this side -- but i think that there has been a reasonably good job of advertising the advantages of regional libraries throughout the Province . I think there is a p acE;-at which these things can be developed. I-think that the people in the library work have done a fairly good job in that regard but, again, perhaps not enough and that ties in with what the Member for st. John said that we are moving too slow. - ·-- · Just one final thing, Mr . Chairman, and I can't resist this.

The honourable member refern; d to the leadership being shown by sout!!._-western Manitoba-- and it is very true, they have a very extensive regional library development -- I would just like to tell the Committee that the first library formed under the Public Libraries Act, the present Public Libraries Act of Manitoba was formed in Dauphin. Page 382 February 9th, 1960

MR. CAJMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I am sure that the :Minister in this case does not need any defense from me but I think that on this point I would like to supply him with a little bit of ammunition to use against the Honourable Member for st. Johns who has apparently re tired from the fray. Before doing that, though, I would like to say that I heartily endorse the expressions of appreciation that have been coming from all sides with regard to the Library staff, Miss Morley and the others .

I think that all of us who have occasion to use their ser \!ices and I have been in that position for many, many year� must feel very, very appreciative of the fact that they are so ready, and so willing , and so efficient in digging up stuff for us on short notice� my own case, it very often is on short notice . I ce rtainly believe that those complimen ts are well deserved. J But the point that I was going to make _&o far as the Honourable Member of sf.

Johns is concerned is that for quite another purpose, as the Committee will understand, I had been paying some attention to the increases that have occurred here -- not intending to arrive at the same conclu sion as my honourable friend but a quite different one because I have been interest ed to see how far and how fast the present government is moving on some of these expenditures -- and so 1 have been making a little calculation wit:P. regard to the percentage increase in some of these different departments.

I haven't allocated these as between the part for which the Honour able the 1f!n_ister of Edumitionis responsible andthe remainiJlgportion but I woul d think the percen tage is not greatly different between them ; and I find that as compared with two year:s ago -� and the honourable members will know why I make the comparison with two years ago -- that these Estimates are up more than 38% . 'Now I think even the Honourable Member for St.

Johns would agree that that's pretty rapid increase; and while I agree with everythlng that all the members have said in regard to the benefits that are certainly achieved from having good library faciliti es and the benefits that accrue to the people who make use of them , I still don't believe that it' s the responsibility of the provincial government to carry the whole load in that respect. I'm sar�y that my honourable friend is not here to hear me defend the :Minister for the very thing that I would be inclined to attack the :Minister for. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable the :Minister made a brief reference to Saskatchewan and, of course, it is not my purpose to defend Saskatchewan-- A MEMBER: Hear ! Hear l MR. PAULLEY: But I would just like to -- I have in my hand at the present time a book titled "Progress Saskatchewan 1960" -- No, I had to even borrow it, Mr. Chairman.

But there is, and I am sure, and I'll be glad to supply a copy of this book to the Honourable the Minister of Education in respect of libraries particularly -- but I would draw to his attention, he mentioned the fact of one regional library in Saskatchewan, I' m not going to argue that particularly, but I just draw his attention to this sentence which is in this report: (and this deals with 1958, two years ago) -- "Regional li braries receive an initial grant of $1 .5 0 per capita for books; �!!an nual grant of 75 cents per capita is also given; municipalit ies should contribute at least 75% per p�rson; for instance in 1958 an annual grant of over $32, 000 was given to the north Saskatchewan regional library; in addition the library received more than $23, 000 in initial grants for new muni cipaliti es which joined in that year".

My point is if there is only one regional library in Saskat chewan (which I doubt) that in 1958, wo years ago, it received the sum of $32 ,0 00

whereas the grant which is proposed for all of the. libr aries that we have her�:! in the Province of Manitoba for the year ending March 31st 1961 accordfug to the Estiinat�s if! $54, 000 . I just point this out, not again in defense of Saskatchewan, but just so that the record has it straight. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item A 1 and 2 passed; B 1..:.i2 passed; C 1 and 2 passed; D 1 and 2 passed D

(3) MR. CAJMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I understand from what the First Minister said that it's not proper to discuss the historic sites here, but that is under the jurisdiction of the Honourable the Provincial Secretary. I see no item in the llrpvincial Secretary's department-- in that cas� we could discuss it either on the • . . • - - --. - item . MR; EVANS : ••.... name of the :Minister that's all, I don't think there is any particular MR. ROBLIN: Under the Historic Sites Act w� 1:1:1ve to designate a :Minister. MR •. CAMPBELL: Yes, MR. ROBLIN: My honourable friend here ha!! been.designated 1\'f..inister so Tpresume February 9th, 1960 Page 383

(Mr . Roblin, cont'd.) •.•.• either -- I imagine on his salary would be the best place to discuss that. MR . CAMPBELL : Mr . Chairman, is there not some appropriation? MR •.. M cLEAN: That comes under the grants to which the First Minister referred to in !ten> 4. i.VIR . CAMPBELL: Yes, that is the only appropriation so even though the appropriation was there , it's in order to discuss the program on the salary of Honourable .••.• MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman we would agree to that. It was generally acceptable that that was the place where .we would have those discussions. MR . CHAffiMAN:

Section 5-passed. Resolution 8 Libraries and Hi,storical Research $172 ,3 20-passed. Department ..... MR . CAMPBE LL: Mr . Chairman, I know that there is no appropriation under the next two items 6 and 7 but I wonder if the First Minister or one of his colleagties is in a position to report to us the approximate expenditure that was incurred in each case ? MR . ROBLIN: ..... the approximate expenditure in the case of registrations and elections was about the sum shown there , it's not exactly that sum but near enough. With respect to the Royal visit I think the expenditure reached around $70 ,0 00. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Department 3 Treasury. 1. Administration - passed (a) . Mr. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, in regard to this one the fact that there is an approp riation for the Minister's salary, can we take that to mean that likely a new Minister is to be appointed or another Minister assigned to that position? MR . ROBLIN: The only assumption that I would .make on that point, Sir, is that the pre- sent incumbimt it is not going to be paid twice . , . MR . CAMPBE LL: I wasn't suggesting that. Perhaps my honourable friend would expect me to raise that point but I had no fear of that.

I am interested though in the fact that there is an appropriation. Is it likely that it will be used? MR . ROBLIN: I'll wait and see . MR. MOLGAT : Under the other salaries,M r. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could tell us at this time what the lliputy Minister's salary is in this particular ..••. MR . ROBLIN: Yes, Mr . Chairman, the Deputy Minister's salary is $1 5,0 00 . There are 32 people included in this salary list. Are there any others for which you require information in detail? (Interjection) •... 32 persons . MR . CAMPBE LL: I take it Mr.

Chairman, that with regard to the Deputy Minister that he was started at the top of the present range. MR. ROBLIN: Yes , that is correct. MR . MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, in the past the Deputy Minister who held the previous post alsc had another post with the Hydro- Electric Board. Does the present Deputy Minister also hold other positions in the Government? MR . ROBLIN: Yes, he has replaced his predecessor on the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board at the same rate. MR . MOLGAT : of $6 ,0 00 . MR . ROBLIN: No , $3 ,0 00 . MR . CAMPBELL: May I ask Mr. Chairman, if the total salary is $1 8, 000 . MR .

ROBLIN: Well, he gets -- I just don't like to use the word total salary -- but he does get $18 , 000, $15, 000 as Deputy Minister and $3 ,00 0 as member of the Board. I am sure the House knows there are other members of the Bo ard who also occupy government posts who by the previous administration were allowed to take advantage of this arrangement, and I think quite properly, and this is another instance. MR . CAMPBELL: I am not criticizing the policy at all but I do think, Mr .

Chairman, so far as the salaries that come before us in the Committee here that it would· be advisable to use the former practice and show the total salary just so the Committee has that before them . MR . CHAIRMAN: B- passed. C 1. . . l'IIR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I think I would like to .give the Committee an. idea li I can of what is involved under this heading Central Electronic Date Proces sing Bureau because as you will observe this is something new . Really the title I think is pretty well ex9lanatory Page 384 February 9th, 1960

(Mr . Roblin, cant' d.) ... of the whole operation beca�se what has been attempted here is to set up on a line similar to the Queen's Printer in regard to organization and general function, general operation in Electronic Bureau because our studies have led us to the conclusion that we can make certam savings in the operation of the public service if we take advantage of the services that can be made available by a Central Electronic Bureau of this sort. This Bureau is set up with staff and with equipment and it sort of rents out its services to other departments .

Other departments are charged for the time that they occupy of the staff or the machines or they can bring their own staff if they have operators who can use these machines, and they have a number of-projects some of which I will refer to that they have in hand in order to make use of this equipment. And the result is that the operation ought to be self-supporting insofar as its own accounts are concerned in much the same way as the Queen's Printer is and the de partments have to pay up from their regular appropriations for the service.

Now, of course, one· of the great problems as all administrators will agree in matters like this is to pin down the saving that one expects to make because particularly in large organizations the tendency is for it to slip away and the first thing you know somebody has taken tl:ta man or the time you thought you had saved and used it for something else, and it is very-hard to identify and tie down the savings .

We are using this system in an endeavour to make sure that the savings expected are actually realized so that the department concerned has to ante up so to speak and they can only spend the money once and they have to pa y this out and therefore we feel that we're going to have some certainty that the savings expected will be realized. Now the staff at the present time, will consist of a Supervisor, a key punch operator m, tabulating operator m, two key punch operators Il' s, and one tabulating operator. In addi tion, there will be a couple of clerks also placed on this staff.

This staff will have the use of several items of electronic computing equipment. These terms are ·all technical and I'm afraid they don't mean too much to the Committee, but just for the record I'll give of them, a 407 Printer, 082 sorte·r, an 026 key-punch, a 514 card reproducer, a 557 card interpreter, 602 a calculating punch, 024 key punch, 077 card col1 ator, !l82 sorter , 407 printer, 523 gang

summary punch. In addition, key punches and card varifiers will be located in the departments which use this type of equipment. . Now the kind of work they do is this kind of thing. They will be helping the Motor Vehicle Branch, for example, to operate its suspension lists, to operate its age statistics, to collate its accident statistics figures and all that kind of thing.

And by the use of this machine instead of hours of laborious hand-labour or sorting through little bits of paper you run them through these machines and the answers come out in very quick time with a great saving of effort. -- (Interjection) -- Oh, I think it's a good deal easier than -- asking a politician and I hope that some of the answers they get are a good deal more accura te than some of the answers that we politicians are inclined to phrase from time to time . Then, moving on, the Civil Ser- vice organization will make use of this in their establishment listings.

There will be consider able use of it ma de of it on its statistics in the Department of Education. One of the main func tions will be for the operation of the Civil S__ervice payroll. The present cost of all payroll pre para tions is about $100 thousand per year . We estimate that by using the central payroll assembly system, when all payrolls casual time certificates, etc., will be included, will save us about $40 thousand a year in that one operation alone. So that one can understand the potential of this kind of thing if its properly applied.

There will be two pay days a month for all personnel with a statement of earnings . That's been an important matter that's been discussed before. We would have the sta tement of earnings done with little or no extra cost through this system . And we'll tell them all about their deductions for superannuation and income tax, hospital service and all.the rest of it . AnO. so that we'll be able to get a pretty good job for all payroll purposes . Now the Municipal Asse ssment notices will also be prepared by this machine .

I also recall that last year arrangements were made to centralize, at the request of the municip�ties, their asses sment problem in order that we might save them some money and do it cheaper !or them . And tha t's exactly what we'll be doing here. There'll be a central prepa ration of assess ment lists and notices for urban and rural municipalities for the 1961 assessme nt year and thereafter. And it is estima ted that we will be saving, after the first year of operation, seven or eight thousand dollars per year over the previous manual method. Now, another body that February 9th, 1960 Page 385

(Mr. Roblin, contin11ed) ..... is going to make a good deal of use of this -- and here it's a little bit difficul� to des cribe the saving because it merely prevents us from spending a lot of money we would otherwise prevent, which is a sort of a negative way of des cribing a saving, but nonetheles s, real as far as the Treasury is concerned. That is in connection with Public Works and Highways statistics .

As you know we are now involved in running a very elaborate set oJ statistical analyses that have arisen from the traffic surveys that have been taken over the past year and a half as a result of this planning process we have in hand, with the Automotive Safety Foundation respecting the location and planning of roads in Manitoba.

All sorts of facts about volume of traffic moving, origin and destination, weight and truck geometrics, axel counts and all that kind of thing which involves a tremendous use of variety of statistics and figures that are practically impossible to asse mble in any coherent way unle ss it's done by mechanical means of this sort . And the Automotive Safety Foundation recommends to us that we should consider using the kind of equipment that we have now proposed to put into effect.

They say that without the use of mechanical equipment of this nature, the survey would be almost impossible for us to complete in the Province of Manitoba, without very considerable inconvenience and extra expense . So that is going to be one of the main things that this new bureau will do .

There is another allied one to that and that is in the course of building the flood protection measures around Winnipeg, very similar, mechanically speaking, very simi lar types of calculations will have to be entered into with respect to volume of earth to be. moved and methods by which it is to be moved and the effect of applying certain types of machinery to the problem . We are going to have here in this province, one of the largest earth moving problems or projects ever -- it's going to be a very large thing indeed as mem bers with a shread of imagination would have unde rstood long ago.

And the question of organiz ing the movement of this amount cf material is something which requires a great deal of engineering planning and investigation and the application of different kinds of equipment, whether of a hydraulic nature or dry nature and all those problems, to the particular project . And in order to calculate the best and cheapest ways to do this, one gets into a very involved calculation of the sort that this kind of machinery is going to help us to take care of. So that' s another use to which it will certainly be put.

Then, in the Department of Labour, we have brought in by Statute as the Committee will remember, a new system of implementing the vacation with pay credit system . That was formerly done with stamps on an annual system. It's now going to be run through this equip ment as well and we think it can be done a lot quicker and a lot cheaper. The cost to the de partment of keeping track of the stamps and the books on the former system was very extensive indeed. Now this will all be done without that rather involved process and quite simply on this machine.

Then, of course , when we get the Social Allowances program rolling, there will be the question of issuing cheques under that system as well and this equipment can be applied to that as well as to the payment of our own staff. The wage survey for the Department of Labour is also something that can be economically collated on machinery of this sort.

Well , I've said enough, Sir, to indicate the rather wide variety of applications that we could expect to develop with this equipment and a great deal of thought has gone into this on the part of technical experts, of whom I'm certainly not one, to develop the kind of savings that we could expect from the installation of this kind of equipment. I emphasize again that one has to be on the watch always in these matters to make sure the savings projected is actually realized.

It's like quick-silver, it will slip away from you if you' re not careful, but we trust we have the matter adequately attended to at the present time. So those are the central facts , I think Sir, about this new processing bureau and we trust that it will live up to its expectations. MR . CAMPBELL : Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure that all of us have found the Honourable t!le First Minister' s expl«nation of this equipment very interesting and I, for one, would certainly not be inclined to blame him if he's not technically equipped to answer all intricacies that I am sure there must be with regard to machinery of this kind. Old fashioned as I am , I still recognize the fact that a lot of this new equipment is labour-saving and can be made to be economical . I am not mechanically minded myself and some of these new inventions simply stagger my limited imagination.

But I' m interested, nevertheless, and I hope th.at this kind of an advance will work out well. I see no reason why it shouldn't. But there are two or three Page 386 February 9th, 1960

(Mr. Camp bell, continued) .. • practical questions that I would like to ask . First and foremost, of course, what' s the cost of the equipment? I don't know that that needs to be answered at the moment and with anything as complex and intricate as this machinery must be, by the way did I understand the First Minister to say that the bureau, the Central Electronic Data Pro cessing Bureau, consists of, so far as equipment is concerned, five or six machines ? Are there five or six separate machines ? MR . ROBLIN : Twelve or thirteen. MR. CAMP BELL: Twelve or thirte en separate machines. MR . ROBLIN: Yes . MR .

CAMPBELL: Where are they housed? Where is the bureau at the moment? MR. ROBLIN: Well, they aren't housed anywhere yet. We have to get the money first. MR . CAMPBELL: It's not -- MR. ROBLIN : No, and it may be fitted into the planning in our new building . MR . CAMPBELL: I suppose that it requires a considerable amount of room and the other practical question I was going to ask, is there quite a long life expectancy on machinery as complex and intricate as this ?

And the other one that appears to me to be practical, that this, of course, will cut down very greatly the number of people who are required to do this same kind of work. That's the only justificati on, I'm sure, or one of the justifications for purchasing it . But supposing that some failure does result in any way through power interrup tion or mechanical breakdown or anything else that occurs, are the people then able to step in and take over one or all of those operations ?

And my last question that I suppose that when this equipment does arrive that we will have an opportunity of going over and inspecting it because I would think it must be quite .an interesting group of machinery . MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, will it facilitate the Premier in his answers if I just make a few remarks in connection with this at the present time ? I find the explanation of the First Minister very, very interesting . I know that in the field of electronics and processi ng data and the likes of that, vast strides have been made in the past few yea rs .

I was very interested to hear the First Minister say that one of the complaints, to some degree, at least, of the Civil Service of only receiving their pay cheques once a month, will be dissipated when we receive this machine and that th ey'll be able to be paid bi-m onthly . It was also very interesting to hear the First Minister how this machine can be used in connection with the proposed flood-way around Greater Winnipeg and I must interject and I hope we don't have to wait until the machines are fully installed and the building is built to house it, until we have a little action but that• s really an aside .

One question I would like to ask of the Minister, it' s my understanding with some firms that deal in electronic equipment of this nature, that it' s on a rental basis rather than a pur chased basis . I'd like the Minister, if he can give us an answer as to whether or not that will be so in respect to thi s machinery -- whether it will be on a rental basis, as I understand many of the IBM machines are at the present ti me?

And then, of course , I' m interested in the questions raised by the Leader of the Opposition as to the cost, when we can anticipate it being started and where it' s located -- he's asked those questions and I most assuredly would appre ciate an opportunity once the machinery is installed, to see it in act ion. I think that the general purpose behind the purchase of the machines is very, very good. I was particularly interested in the First Minister raising again the point of proces sing the municipal assessm ent rolls . I think there's a lot more that may be done on these machines eventually .

I think it' s a step in the right direction and again, most of the questions which I would raise, have been already raised by the Leader of the Opposition . I think the only different one in ess ence would be the one on the question of the basis of the machine itself, whether the ownership r:i. the machines would become that of the Province of- Manitoba or whether they. would be on a rental basis as I understand many similar machines to this are in other industries. MR .

ROBLIN: If there are no further points , Sir, I'll try and deal with the ones that have been made and in the first place I would like to say that the total cost that we anticipate in connection with this matter are tho se that are actually shown in the Estima tes here, which are substantial. $72, 000 ,a ltogether. Now, one doesn't start this operation all at once . It requires a gradual building up both of machinery and of personnel and the allocation of space and that kind of thing and that' s what will go on as soon as the House approves of the se estimates . We February 9th, 1960 Page 387

have made soundings, we have made arrangements to secure as a Supervisor a man who has had 14 years experience with the Board of Grain Commissioners in dealing with the same type of equipment - they make very extensive use of it down at the Board of Grain Commissioners in dealing with their problems. We have also made efforts to se cure a leading operator, a senior operator you might say, who has had a great deal of experience with one of the insur ance companies not far from here, who also makes use of the same tabulating data. And we will be requiring the other six people I think I mentioned, as time goes on.

Now i.n addition to that, people in the various departments will be able to use this equipment themselves . Now for example the engineers in the Department of Engineers and the Depart!!lent of Agriculture and Conservation will probably come and put their own problems on the computor. That will not be done by this staff. It can be done by them - it's probably more their wish to do that because they have to learn how to use it and make sure they get the greatest value out of it.

So a good many people will use it but whoever does, they are charged the time for that machine just as if it were a commercial operation, they have to find.that out of the departmental estimates which have not been increased to take care of it so -you can see that they've got to find a saving in order to do it. Now, the machinery itself is assembled in the same way as the personnel is , gradually as it's required and it is, I think, almost all on a rental basis .

This kind of equipment is not sold as a general rule and the main reason for that is, or one of the important reasons is because it is an equipment of a very complicated nature . And the person who sells it wants to undertake the responsibility for maintaining it. I think that answers the point that the Leader-of the Opposition raised on that score .

And these people rent the equipment to us and they also have to maintain it in good operating condition which of course, avoids the necessity of -- which gets the best effect of trained personnel because if everyone tried to maintain their own machines, it would be like trying to maintain -- even a simple thing like a typewriter -- it can't be done, it's done as a rule by these maintenance firms . So I can give you the cost of renting of all these machines if that's desired . It's not? All right.

But, we have a rental cost per month on everyone of these machines which I have here and that goes into this grand total which is shown in the estimates. Now, some of this machinery is on a trial basis . That is for example, our Burrows E 101 computor which we intend to get ahold of will be installed on a trial basis to see if it does the job we want done .

You can imagine th�t when you go into this business there are half a dozen firms, all of whom had excellent machines who want you to use theirs and it's a matter of some difficulty to pick what one thinks to be the right one be cause in this particular kind of a job, it's not possible to use the straight lowest tender basis that we adhere to in every instance that we humanly can.

Here one -- the· element of judgment enters in and we hand this over to the Comptroller-General and we have a man on the Tre asury Board staff that knows something about this thing and there are others in the government ser vice and they analyze these machines and give us their best advice as to which one is most suitable. But, the arrangement is that it's on trial and if we find that we've made a mistake or it doesn't do the job then itis quite understood that we'll be able to make use of somebody else's machine .

Now I think that those were the main points that were raised by the members who spoke; if I've overlooked something, just remind me of it. MR . CAMPBELL : This item, apart from salaries, really represents the expe.cted annual rental, I take it? MR . ROBLIN : Mostly, although there is a certain amount of stationery of various sorts, special cards have to be purchased in various sizes and there are quite a number of supplies as well, but rental is the major item . MR.

PAULLEY: That is a point that I was going to raise really in _,... are the estimates set up as we have here of some $72, 000 or more particularly the item dealing with the supplies, expenses, renewals of $47, 000 odd dol lars, is that on the basis of a full year' s. operation .or is that on the basis of anticipated delivery or start of us.e of the e.quipment. MR . ROBLIN : Yes, that's the full year's operation. We have about three months to go before the -- before we can get things rolling. MR. PETERS: Is the maintenance cost included in the rentals or is that a separate item ? MR.

ROBLIN: It's included in the rental figure . Page 388 February 9th, 1960

MR. CHAIRMAN: 1, 2, 3, Appropriation 1, Resolution 9, Administration - $208 ,2 40. , Appropriation 2, Taxation Branch, A passed. MR. ROBLIN : There are 45 people included in this item, Sir . MR. CHAIRMAN: B, 2, Resolution 10, Taxation Branch, $94, 455. MR. PAULLE Y: Mr. Chairman, in connection with the Taxation Branch; would this be where I'd ask the question in respect of the collection of diesel fuel tax, wh ether anything has been done in connection with the alleged loop holes in the collection ci the tax. MR. ROBLIN: Yes, I think we're bringing in an amending Act to take care of those things this year . MR.

CHAIRMAN : Resolution 11, and Appropriation 4 - Insurance Branch A - salaries, B MR. ROBLIN : There are six people, seven people under this head, Mr . Chairman . MR. GRAY: I don't know whether there is any other item or if I should ask under this item , as to the amount in the trust funds of insurance carried by the province on the provincial buildings. MR. ROBLIN : I suppose my honourable friend is asking about our self-ins urance fund? Yes -t he sum is $632, 463. MR. CHAIRMAN: B passed; C passed. MR.

SHOEMAKER: I notice that an item for C insurance premiums $40, 000 and as I reme mber it correctly from last year that was principally insurance premiums on the govern ment owned automobiles . Now in going back to 1959 and I do like to go b!jfk to 1959, Mr . Chairman, I note that the premiums are worth $23, 700 so they are almost double what they were two years ago and there are probably two reaso ns for that - No . 1 being that we have a lot more government automobiles and No 2, that insurance premiums are generally up a little bit.

And on that very point of insurance premiums I note that they are down $200 from last year . Now I don't know at what time of the year the policy expires but it seems to me that automobile insurance is down slightly or more than slightly this year . I wonder if the Province has now received a premium for the ensuing year . Is the $40 , 000 an accurate figure or an estimate or a quotation by an it1surance compa ny? MR. ROBLIN: No, that is just an estimate . I don't think there is any significance in that $200 change there, Mr . Chairman. MR. HAWRYLUK: In regard to this particular

section you have complete coverage for all vehicles involved in any accidents ? MR. ROBLIN: The insurance that is carried on these vehicles consists of public liability and property damage, passenger hazard, fire and theft. Collision is not covered for self insurance for collision. MR. SHOEMAKER: Could the Honourable the First Minister tell us the number of auto mobiles that the premium pays �or ? MR. ROBLIN : About 1200 vehicles are covered by this . MR. SHOEMAKER: Well , Mr. Chairman, is that an increase or a decrease over last year because that would answer both my questions then ? - MR.

ROBLIN : Well, I can't answer that question at the moment but I know there is an Order for Return either pending or about to come before us which answer s that information and it will be provided. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4 passed Resolution 12 Insurance Branch $76, 660 passed, Resolu tion 5, :Miscellaneous A passed, B passed; C MR. ROBLIN : .... Well, they're for all kinds of things ,_ifwe collected tax for example of mining royalty tax and that ha ppens to be geared to profits made in Manitoba and the com pany doesn't actually make them, then we have to ma ke a refund .

If somebody asks for a refund on their automobile license then we have to make a refund. It's that kind of ordinary run-of-the -mill thing . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5 passed; Resolution 13 mis cellaneous $105 ,3 00 passed; item 6 Grants under the Unconditional Grants Act to municipalities, etc. , $2 , 506 , 833 . Resolution 14 passed. MR. CAMPBELL: I note that' s exactly the same as last year, approximately the same as the year before I believe . That means that the- amount remains the same which I presume means the basis has been changed to some extent. February 9th; 1960 Page 389

MR. ROBLIN: No, that's not so, Sir . My honourable friend will probably recall that when he introduced the legislation respecting this matter he stated that there would be no change in the population basis in the inter-censal periods. It may be calculated back afterwards but there would be no change in the inter-censal period. We are in an- inter-censal period and it won't be changed until the miXt census is taken . . MR. PAULLEY: ... •. Mr. Chairman, as I remember t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-16a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 16a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	29533516cfff954f6faa533a7ae8083e4e0ab457

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