VOL. 2 NO. 41 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 13, 1980 ~ \ \.

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1480 so - .1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Sii!IIIIS) : Order, please! I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of hon. members to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from the town of Grand Falls, in the district of Grand Falls,consisting of the Deputy Mayor, Paul Hennessey,and Councillor Tom Arkley and the Town Manager, Wilf Maloney. I trust their visit will be fruitful. SOME HON. MEMBEFS : Hear, hear. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the membe~:for Terra Nova. HR. T. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn). In view of the publication of Statistics Canada month!.-, ~=i.atin'T to employment -. ttn=o~ e--.. or unemployment,.. i-..oeer i'f the minister could give to the House s0111" breakdown in terms of the employment sector-wise in Newfoundland. In o~er wozds, what is the level of employment, the n'!llllbers of people employed in the fisheries, forestry and the like? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr.

Speaker , first of &11, I haw recei vad the statistics from Statistics Canada; unfortunately, this morninq I was only in my office for about five minutes. I was into scme serious neqotiations, plus reviewinq s~ leqislation and have not had a chance to do a complete review on the statistics that are available. r will haw t!tat done and infozm the hon. House probably toaonow. - \ MR. T. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. 1118111ber for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to know that the minister did not have that infol:1Mtion for us todaY in view of the 3873

-·· .. ~-..-~-·- ... ·--- May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1480 SD - 2 MR. T. LUSH: fact that a lot of people follow these statistics and certainly one would have thought the minister would have come prepared to give us that information.~ut,nevertheless, this was a t!Xcellent year in te:cns of reducing the unemployment in :;so much as that the labour force only grew by l,OOO,and that is certainly unusual because normally the labour force will grow between 5,000 and 8,000.

I thL~ --... it has done that over a number of years. so by virtue of the fa~:t that it jwst grew by 1,000 this year, I wonder if the minister could explain the reason for the, if you will, lack of growth in the labour force? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, to say that the labour force only grew by ;J.,OOO ia to say sanething that is not quite accurate. On --··· ---,- . --- - a month to month basis, from ~~ril to April, it is true to say that the labour for .:a grew by only 1,000 this year.

The fact of the matter is that there are fish plants open, there are things that;- for example, the labour force la.St month improved quite substantially and,on a month to month basis while it may be tme that the labour force increued by only 1, 000, the actuaJ. figures for 1978 ,month to montla - SOME BON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAJCER: \ \ Oh, oh. Order, please! 3674

.... May 13, 1980 Tape NO. 1481 EL -1 MR. J. DINN: The hon. members cannot .wait for all this. I heard the hon. member on the medi.a this morning say-inq .about the sluggi9h economy. The only thing that is sluggish in this Province is the Opposition. SOME. HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. HR. J. DINN: Ever:ythinq _elee seem~~ to be 1110ving,Mr.Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Lies, lies ! MR . DINN: The fact of the matter is that - AN RON. MEMBER: They have lost (in.audible) • MR. IPEAKER: (Simms) : Order, ple&ae. AN HON. MEMBER: They are down (inaudible) • MR. J. OINN : Sluggish and falling down, yes.

The fact of the matter is is thilt from .a month to month basis, April to April Sa! E HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh HR. J. DINN: - 1979 versus 1980, we had a one thousand increase in the labour force: And the fact of the matter is that employ- 111ent wise, from April '79 to April' 80, we had six thousand more people employed. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. J. DINN: Now, that is the .kind of fiqure that we have to look at. We should also have a loo.k at the participation rate that is c;oing up. The participation rate has gone frcaa 49.6 to 50.5 frDIII March to April.

OVer the yeu the participation rate has gone up ODe pereen~ point. so the fact of the matter is ve have increased in - -- ·· jobs,month to 110nth, April last year to April this year, by 6000 jobs. I think that is quite an illlprov-nt,and 'not only that, but I think that that will continue and hon. members should also note that last 110nth. the increase in a.ployment -s well over what it was last ya~. \ SOME BON. MEMBERS: Beu, heu~ MR . J.

DINN: ear· e.pl~nt rate increased. 3875 ---·---- ~ .. -·-- ··· ----- --- ---r-- ·-------- -··---.-·----- -·----- --·,--- ·..:· -· --·· -.... -..-~ .... ---_.... ..... -.. --------~

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1481 EL - 2 MR. J. DINN: The IUiemployment last month went from- 20.1 to 15.7 and that was a drastic increase and it was attributed to things that are going on over and above what normally would happen. The Linerboard mill, the new newsprint mill in Corner Brook, the fisheries, the plants that are open - SOlE RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, pl6ase. MR • .J. onm: -over and above what they would normally be open, the fish plants on the Northeast coast, in st.Anthontyand on the St. Barbe coast,and this trend will continue.

Now, I told the hon. member last month when he asked me the same question that I did not think that we would increase by five per cent every month. But the fact of the matter is, year over year, month over month, from last year to this year, we are still better than last year. We are better by quite a percentage - MR. THOMS: 1 we will soon have to_ bring them in (inaudible) · MR. J. DINN: - we got six thousand more jobs and the hon. member should be, I think, locking at comparing apples with apples. AN. BON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. T. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplemenatry, the hen. the member for Terra Neva. MR. '1'. LDSH: Mr. Spe&lcer, ve are certainly pleased that the IUII!IIIployment rate is down, no I(Uestion about that,but certainly one has to look into and study the rilllifications and when one understands that the labour force only grew by 1, 000 and v•. created \ 3876

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1482 DW - 1 MR. T. LUSH: 6,000 jobs,which is a normal growth rate,. and in view of the fact that the Premier just about a year ago in an election promised 40,500 jobs over the next five years, and in view of th~ fact when one studies the results or the reports from Statistic Canada today we find out that there is no~increase at all in the primary industries, none at all 1

whereas again the Premier announced the jobs that were going to be in each sector-6, 000 in the forestry, for examnle; ,o many thousand in this and so many thousand in that - the question to the ~inister of Labour and Man- power (Mr. Dinn) is how close is the government to realizing that objective of 40,500 jobs over the five year period as promised by the Premier?

We are already a year into that now and therehave not been 8,000 jobs created 1 which would have to be created in a year,so are we now going to start seeing more jobs-10,000- to realize this objective of 40,500 jobs when none have been created in the primary- sector? MR . SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. M!L J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is obviously confused - 11R. F. STAGG: Still. MR. J. DINN : -still. At this point in time last year,our unemployment rate was 18.2 per cent; this year it is 15.6. We had an improvement.

We had 6,000 jobs created year over year • Including the number of people that the labour force increased of 1,000 1 we have created 6,000 new jobs. Now they are not new jobs with respect to - they are not \ jobs building new fences around cemeteries. They are new jobs in primary and secondar:• industry and the labour force, particularly in the fishery has increased,as I have indicated before,and I will do a complete analysis betwegn now and tomorrow and present a report to the House. 3877

ay 13 1990 oiR. SPEAKER (Simms) ~~R. S. NEARY : Tape No . 1482 DW - 2 The hon. member fo~ LaPoile. ~r. Speaker, my question is for the ~liniste r of .Justice (:~r . Ottenheimer). Yeste.:day ~h e minister tabled a contract between Labrador Liner boar d and Schurfeld in Hamburg, Germany, and in tabling this document the minister said that the co ·mpany ,•..-ho were under contract to market Labrador linerboard, th .e company refused to pay the governmen t $2.7 million that has been in a ban~ account in Hamburg, Oe rmany, .belonqinq to the people of this Province for several years.

Now what I want to ask the mi:tister is why is this money bei.ng •,rithhelci by Schurfeld •o~hen they ma rketed the line .rboard, they put the money in a bank acount that belonged to ~abrader Linerboard, the pe o?le of thi s Provine~ bec au se Labrad or ~i:terboard was a Crown company, why is the money being withheld and what steps - because the minister left the impression that the government had taken steps to recover, to qet this money brought to New foundland where it riohtfully belonc~ - what steps have the government taken to try to get this money in the New!o undland Exchequer Acc ount? \ 3878 - ·---·- -- ... --~----·-·--·.,----~----··..:·.~

---~-- May 13, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 1483 NM- 1 The hen. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the reason that the company has not paid it•obviously it will be the company itself that would be in the best position to answer that -but the only answer I can give is that the company disputes that that amount is owing. That is in fact what the company disputes, I am not defending the company. The company disputes that the amount is owing. There have been negotiations with respect to that dispute,as I said yesterday,which so far have not resulted in the company's agreement to pay the amount.

One further attempt at negotiation is to be made,and if that is not successful then obviously the government will have to pursue ~~e arbitration route which is indicated in the contract or recourse to the courts. I do not know that I can say a great deal more than that,because if the matter is going to be subject to further negotiation and then possibly to arbitration and/or determination by the court,then obviously I do not wish to say anything which would prejudice the government's position during those particular proceedings. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. ~Y: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hen. member for I was quite right in my assumption, when the hon. gentleman was interviewed on television last night, that neither the interviewer nor the hon. gentleman knew what they were talking about, and now I am more convinced of that than ever. This money was collected for linerboard ~~at was sold by a company that was under contract to Labrador Linerboa,rd, a Crown company, and that money should have been put into the accodht of Labrador Linerboard several years ago.

Now let me ask the hon. gentleman this;­ the dispute is not the fact that they do not owe the money, that is not the 3879 -~--_,..--.- ..... -·,...~ · ~ •, -..---~-.;"_;..~·::--: ... -.. ' ..

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1483 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: dispute at all, they know they owe the money. Let me ask the hon. gentleman this; when did the goverrunent take the steps that the hon. gentleman is talking about to try to get this company to put the money in the public treasury of this Province where it rightfully belongs? When did the government start their move? When did they take steps to try to get this money brough .t from Hamburg, Germany 1 in a bank over there, to the Newfoundland Exchequer Account? Could the hon. gentleman tell me that? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of .::ustice.

Mr. Speaker, originally,of course, the money was owed to Labrador Linerboard, and it wa~ Labrador Linerboard and its solicitors which made those attempts. I know that they were made. I cannot give the hen. gentleman the date or the specific day, but originally,of course,the money was owed to Labrador Linerboard and the dispute was between Labrador Linerboard and the company in West Germany. Now that Labrador Linerboard is now longer in operation 1then it is the Crown which has taken over, and it is now that the Crown is directly involved with the matter.

With respect to the period during which Labrador Linerboard was in operation and the money owed directly to them, all I know is that they ~~d their solicitors made attempts to get the money over and carried on some negotiation which did not result in the desired result. 3880 •:: -:~ -:---.- -·- ~ ---·.· -.:~- ... ::: ~- --~"::;-;:~-

May 13,1980 Tape No. 1484 AH-1 MR, OTTENHEIMER: The situation now, of course ,with Labrador Linerboard no longer in operation,is that it is the Province directly which wishes to have the money paid to it and now it is the Province directly which will make one further attempt at negotiation, and,if that is not successfu~ followed by the procedures which I mentioned a few minutes ago. MR.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary. A final supplementary.

The hon. member The hon. minister talks about ~brador Linerboard, Sir, as if it was some private company when in actual fact it was a company owned by the people of this Province. It was set up by the government of which the hon. gentleman is a member. It was the people's company so you cannot separate the two, government and Labrador Linerboard. But what I want to ask the hon. gentleman, this contract is a ten year contract dating back to May 1975 and in this contract is an arbitration clause.

If a dispute arose with Schurfeld, why did not Labrador Linerboard or the Newfoundland government call into play the arbitration clause of this agreement in the last five years? Why did they wait until today? I know the reason why the hon. gentleman waited until today,because the government did not know- It is $2.9 million,by the way,according to the Auditor's Report that I read on Labrador Linerboard, not $2.7 million, $2.9 million over there. MR. BARRY: Is the hon. member asking a question or giving an answer. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: The government did not know about it until I brought it to their attention. Why was not the arbitration clause of this agreement used before to try and get that$2.9 million brought to Newfoundland for the benefit of the people of this Province where it rightfully belongs? 3881 ---- ·--- ·--- - -- ·-- ---- ..

May 13,1980 MR. SPEAKER' (Simms) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 1484 AH-2 The hen. the Minister of Justice. In answer to the self-appointed attorney general, arbitrator and judge in this matter,! would point out that yesterday I stated $2.7 million approximately, approximately $2.7 million.

The exact amount is indeed the matter which is specifically in dispute,or one of the matters which ar~ specifically in dispute 1so I certainly,after having said approximately $2.7 million and having given the han. gentleman all of the information with respect to the matter 1 take offence at his saying that it is $2.9 and it is not $2.7. Maybe it is $2.8, ~~ybe it is $3, maybe it is $2.6 or $2.5. We would not need to negotiate, we would not need an arbitrator, we would not need a court if the hen member were going to settle it himself,but he is not in a position to so do.

So I really do not know that there is anything further that I can add to the matter rather than what I already said. Why Labrador Linerboard mill five years ago 1or four years ago 1or chree and a half years agoror whatever number of years ago pursued the matter the·way they did is a matter that certainly I cannot answer for. I was not Mir-ister of Justice, I was not in the Cabinet and obviously I had nothing actually to do with Labrador Linerboard mill at all during that period of time. All I can say is that now we are taking measures to have the money recovered.

The hon. member says why not go to arbitration right away. Well,obviously if the matter can be settled by negotiation! 1then that is the way to do it. If it cannot be settled by negotiation 1 then obviously we shall go by the way of arbitration. MR. NEARY: There is nothing to negotiate. The money is there. 3682 -- --- ··--- --

May 13, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAICER: Tape No • 1485 so - 1 The hon. the Leader of the Op~sitio~ There is nothing to negotiate. Order, please! MR. o. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier. It is really a follow-on in a sense to the exchange between the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) and my colleague ,the member for Terra Nova (Mr. T.

Lush). :The news over the past twenty-four hours or so, and it has been building for some considerable time , with regard to the very, very severe cutbacks in the automobile industry - and I was advised today that in the steel industry in the United States, on this single day some 16,000 steelworkers are being laid off - I wonder if the intelligence of the Premier, and I do not 1118an that in terms of his cerebral qualities but the information available to him, is such that he can indicate if and when this is likely to have an impact on particularly the Labrador mining operations, or perl\aps some other mining operations in the Province as well?

MR. SPEAXER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEC!<FORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not have any specific information available at the present moment to indicate that the lay-offs in the United States will have any effect upon the iron ore mines in Labrador. We are monitoring the situation and I am aware of the info:r:mation the same way a8 the Leader of the Opposition is as it relates to the cutbacks in the car industry and the automotive industry in the United States and Canada and the steel industry. It is difficult to say whether it is a momentary thing or whether it is long term.

One also has to look at the European situation and the Japanese situation, where we haw some markets established or where colq)anies who are doing woz!c in this Province have some markets, so it is difficult to say right now and I do not have any particular, specific information to indicate that our markets are in any way jeopardized. But obviously we will have to monitor it very closely to see whether in fact it might haw some effect do- the road. MR. D. JAMIESON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 3883

i\!... May 13, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) of the Opposition. Tape No. 1485 so - 2 SUpplementary, the hon. the Leader MR. D.

JAMIESON: I would like to refer the Premier to the doeument that was tabled simultaneously with the budget called, as I recall, Outlook '80 and while I am quoting from memory I believe my recollections are acc:urate 1namely 1that the assessment of what the iron ore sector was qoinq to be doing in 1980 was very much dependent on the United States steel maxket because I believe that is where the bulk of it goes • I am wondering if the· : information is not at the fingertips of the government now.

I believe it to be of sufficient importance and seriousness that it is worth something by way of a very special kind of inquiry to determine what is happeninq 1 because private information reaching me, and I do not want to attribute it obviously to anyone in particular, is that in fact if this down­ turn continues for even a. comparatively short period of time,that stoCkpiling will have to begin and lay-offs and the like may very well be in the near future in te~ of the output.

And that, of course, would have, as I am sure the Premier would agree, an overall impact on the general economy and the forecasts made at budget time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECn'ORD: Yes, I agree with everything that the Leader of the Opposition said, Mr. Speaker, and obviously the qovemment and the ministry are monitoring the situation as closely as we em and keeping in touch with the respective companies. we are also wry concerned, 3884

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1486 NM- l PREMIER PECKFORD: as I mentioned to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Jamieson) last week, and a number of the ministers have ·On various occasions over the last week mentioned it as well, in talking about the economic performance of the Province over the next couple of months or over the next year or two, we continue to voice our concerns both in response to questions asked opposite and just publicly, generally about the continuing problem that we are having in signing very substantial DREE agreements which have to do with resource development, and which in the long term that money of course will be recovered by the respective jurisdictions,federally and provincially.

So as we zero in on one particular industry, which is the steel industry and the impact it might have on the Newfoundland economy, and which we will monitor and try to keep this House up-to-date on, and the people of this Province up-to-date on, we would also be remiss if we did not at the same time highlight again the serious situation that we are facing as it relates to the forest industry in particular, as it relates to ongoing fisheries development and transportation development in Labrador and the Province, as it results from DREE agreements for which we have our share of the money. MR. JAMIESON: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A final supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. the I do not want to say that that is mixing apples and oranges; I can only say this, that the information I have with regard to the DREE agreement is that in large measures it is unfortunate but true that I gather that there was a lengthy freeze imposed and it is only now that these funds are starting to be sprung loose. But that is a different issue.

I would assume that the Premier was counting upon these DREE agreements to supplement what was said in the OUtlook 'so' document as being in effect full time employment in the iron ore industry. In other words 1I do not imagine that he would be content to say, ·~ell 1we are going to have lay-offs in the iron ore industry and DREE is in effect going to pick 3885 ---- --- ------ -

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1486 NM - 2 MR. JAMIESON: up the slack." Because we 'are back to this business of how we continue to increase jobs. I do urge him,in the form of a question,to ask him whether or not it would be possible for him to make immediate enquiries because I again repeat my point that this matter is extremely serious. I was speaking only last night to some industrialists who advised me that this decline in the automobile industry, and the impact as far as steel is concerned, is going to have a ripple effect throughout the entire economy 1 ahd particularly primary producers.

So all I am simply asking at the moment is can we get an update because clearly what looks to be the figure in the Outlook '80 ~ocument certainly I suggest probably will have to be revised. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition's ~estions - we are speaking to industrialists every day and we are enquiring every day of the industries in the Province to see whether there is any change, meeting every day with people who are intimately either involved now, want to be involved in the industrial and economic life of the Province 1and we will continue to monitor it and if we see any problems we will highlight them and inform this han. House and iriform the Leader of the Opposition. The extent of the recession in the United States as it affects 3686

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1487 EL 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the automobile industry·as it affects· the steel industry,- is not clearly known and I may remind the Leader of the Opposition that I have had a number of very, very expert analyses done by people around the world as it relates to the ecoDOIIIic projections over a three to six month period of the Canadian economy, the Newfoundland economy .nd the American econcmy,and may I suggest to the Leader of the Opposition, which would be no surprise to him or to anybody else, that one group of experts said one thing and iUIOther !JMap of equAlly reputable experts sa.tC. exactly the opposite , and neither one were right.

MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (L. Verge) and it is with respect to the seats available at vocational schools for offshore development related jobs. It is my understanding, .Mr.

Speaker, and the minister can tell me whether I am right or wrong, that most of those seats have been taken up by Canada Manpower, which could mean that since Canada Manpower requires th&t students be out of school for a yeAr before they go under the Can ada MAnpower program, that no grade eleven studei!Jl graduating this year could get into an offshore oil and gils related job this year? MR. SPEAIQ:R: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L.

VERGE: Mr, Speaker, depending on the course or program offered at any one of the Province's fifteen vocational schools, there are seats bought or purchased by the Federal Governaent through canadA Ellployw~ent, whicb,u the bon. member indicated,are given to only those people wholhave been out of high school for, more than a year. There are, ho-ver, other seats which are available to students coming direetly out of high ac:hool. I ~t be any more specific than that off the top of JJrf hud, but if the hon. IIIUiber would like to inquire about any particular course at any - . . "-- · . MR.

BX~: Get to know your department, ay dear. 3887 ~··- ··-,~-'";"--·

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1487 EL - 2 MS. L. VERGE: - p•rticular school, I would be happy · to provide the information tomorrow. MR. F. WHITE: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Lewis porte. MR. 1!'. WHITE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I D~ told by a couple of guidance counlellors in my district that they have been trying to get a great number of grade eleven students into various courses and one in particular,.

JU.rine steel work ,J.s all bought up by the Federal Govern- ment,io I am wondering if the minister could look into this matter, You know, in all due respect, Mr. Speaker, the minister should already know about those things when we are dealing with a major project like offshore oil and gas. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to check on that particular course.

I would remind ·the heft. member that there are a multitude of course which are now being·offered in the many schools in the Province, others which are under conai:deration and in the planning stages for next year and subsequent years,and unless he is more specific I cannot rattle numbers of£ the top of my head but I will be quite happy to get that info%aation for him tomorrow. MR. WR:ITE: A sappl-.ttary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEADR: . A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LeWisporte. MR. F. WH~: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell us whether or not she MS received a request from. the LeWisport. .e area Development Association to try and establish offshore oil related couswes at t!1.e Lewisporte District Vocational School, and whether she plans to fOllow up on that? 3888 • --- - ---·--·· ··

r-t ay 13. 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): HS. VERGE: Tape No. 1488 iJW - 1 The hon. ~inister of Education. ~r. Speaker, that narticular request has not come to my personal attention. I can check with the officials of the department to see if it has been received by them and I can again provide that information to the hon. member tomorrow. ~R. SPEAKE~: The hon. member for Eagle River. ~R. E. HISCOCK: My question is also to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) with regard to the French language programme question yesterday that we brought into the House and the minister passed it on to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer). This programme isself where we get $300,000 from the Federal Government and $120,000 is being used by this government and the other ~oney is qoing into general treasury, whether it is being used in rec~eation, sports, highways,studi~s or whatever but still it is being used, I would like to give the minister some background information with regard to this proqramme that we have instituted at Memorial University - Jo!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member should ask his question with very little

preamble. MR. E. HISCOCK: Okay. Then the question I want to ask is wi~h the N.T.A. and the various teachers throughout this Province who have taken use of this pro­ gramme and gone to Memorial and then on to St. Pierre and then on to University of Laval, and we have people over in France studying instead of always being in the situation that we have to bring in people and train our people 1 here is a programme funded by the Federal Government to send our own people away and then bring them back, with regard to the 3889

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1488 DW - 2 MR. E. HISCOC K: N.T.A. and with regard to the pressure that is being put on by parents,and I notice t ~ e minister made a press release today of funding the ~ .T.A.- the Parent - Teachers Association ~ MR. SPEAKER(Simms}: Order, please! Has the hon. member a question to ask because - MR . E. HISCOC~: Yes, I have a question to ask. MR. SPEAKER : - you have about twenty seconds to do it and get an answer. MR. E. HISCOCK: Well, that is why I am doing it because I know I have twenty seconds.

My question to the minister is is the minister re-considering of taking this money out of general revenue and putting it into it? If not, the minister has stated that the Federal Government is going to wind down this proqramme in five years. Will this pro- gramme now be wound down" this year? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. SOM E HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHI CH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEA!tER : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE~ Mr.

Speaker, r would like to deal with a question raised yesterday by the hen. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) on the subject - MR. J. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. 3890 _ .._ ~ -----------:- ·- - --.~-·-:--·- ·...- _...... -- ·- --· -J'·._--.,,---·- ....,. __

May 13 1980 Tape No. 14 88 ow - 3 MR. J. HODDER: I understand, Mr. Speaker, th~t- when a meurber asks a question of the minister, the minister gives an answer. If the minister takes it under advisement, then she can bring it up in this particular forum. Eut in this case,the questions I asked yesterday the minister answered and did not in any way say that she would be 3891

May 13,1980 !1R. HODDER: information back to the ~ouse. SOME HON. ME!1BERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Silnms) The hog. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1489 AH-1 raising it or would be bringing furthe~ Oh, oh! To that point of order. Order 1please! To that point of order. Mr. Speaker, my understanding of the Answers to Questions, when Your Honour asks for Answers to Questions, these are,generally speaking,questions that are placed on the Order Paper, questions that are asked in writing. Now yesterday my hon. friend asked some questions of the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) .

My han. friend has a procedure that he can use in the event that he is dissatisfied with the answers,but the minister did give the answers and now 1then,what the minister is asking for is a second crack at it, a second bite at the apple because the han. minister feels she did not give satisfactory answers or she made a bit of a fool of herself yesterday and so she wants a second crack at it -and I think that is an abuse of the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: to the point of order? MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: . Anybody else wish to address himself Mr. Speaker. The han. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, this is a little bit ridiculous. The hon. gentleman raised a question yesterday that the han. minister did not answer in its entirety and she now wishes,under Answers ~ Questions For Which Notice Has Been Given 1to give a response. Now if the hon. gentlemen ar~ truly interested in getting the information and the answer to questions which they raise,they will not raise spurious and foolish points of order like this, Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order in respect to this.

The question was raised and the hon. minister is now elaborating o~ her answer and,if memory serves me correct 1 I believe yesterday she did indicate in the course of her answer that 3692 -- --- ---· ----- .---·

Hay 13,1980 Tape No. 1489 AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: there were certain points that she wished to give further information on. But in any event, Mr. speaker, the fact of the matter is the question was first posed and it is certainl.y in order for the hon. minister to give an answer. MR. ROBERTS: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final subl!lission on the po ·int of order. The hon. m~ for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: I would like to say first of all that the contribution by the House Leader really is of no value in that all he did was say the point of order was spurious, but neglected - and I leave Your :Honour to draw the reason why my learned friend negleeted to cite any of the authorities he had open, I would suggest the reason was that of course the authorities go counter to the point he was attempting to make. Sir, I thiDk the matter is summed up quite simply by the order which is est.a.hlished by our Standing Orders which says Answers ~ Questions For Whl.ch Notice Has Been Given.

These are the words Your Honour reads. Now, Sir, yesterday a question was asked in the Oral Question Period, the minister .made an answer. That is normally where the matter ends. 3893 --- ---- -·--- - .,..---..

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1490 !oiB - l MR. E. ROBERTS: There are two other steps which are possible within our procedure: One is the minister may make a Ministerial Statement 1to which a response may be made in keeping with the rules of the House. If the minister feels it incumbent either to correct the answeJ:" she has given or to add to the information which she has given,the appropJ:"iate way to do it,I would suggest, is in a Ministerial Statement.

Or alternatel~ if a minister chooses not to answer a question, he or she may simply take it as notice,at which stage this is the time at which it is given¥ But, Sir, it is not appropriate to do what the minister,unwittingly ana inadvertently,! would suggest, is trying to do,which is to get up today and have a second bite at a question. That is not permitted under our rules, Sir, and certainly not under this paJ:"ticular heading. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please!

With respect to the point of order raised,obviously the Chair would have great difficulty in remembering every question that was asked the day before or from a prior day. So I am assumdng that the minister,in rising under this particular part of the proceedings,is responding in the appropriate way. She has answers to a questicn for which notice has been given. I have no idea what transpired yesterday, whether or not there was notice. So with reapect to the Standing orders,replies can be given if ~ey have been taken as notice as well as oral questions as the hen. member for L4Poile (Mr.

Neary) mentioned in his co11111ents. I will allow the hon. minister to respond , and then I. will have to check Hansard later on. The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Port au Port Ott. Hodder) asked me whether any of the bilingual proqra=~es ,which have in the past been funded by money from the federal government, will be reduced or changed next year.

I indicated that I did not have the information off 'the top of my head, that I would answer today, and I am rather surprised at the response today of the hon. member and his colleaques.since it appeared that he 1 and indeed his colleague- 3894 -·:-..-·- -

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1490 MB - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: That is not what I mean. When I ask a question (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER : (Simms) Order, pleasel MS. L. VERGE: - for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock)were interested in getting thi s information. I will say now simply that this question of bilinqual programmes is under review and I am unable -- --- to say with certainty whether any of the programmes will be affected next year or indeed which ones and to what extent. When this becomes certain 1I will supply the information in the form of a Ministerial Statl!lllent. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: I have a petition to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett)but seeing he is not here I will address it to the Premier who is in the chair of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. My petition is with regard to _ the road from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour on the south CQast of Labrador. The - --·· -~ er has referred to it, and thronqh experience in social work down there, be hu referred to it as a twilight zone. This is a COIIIIIIWiity of about 100 people who in the Spring ~1- ~ve out to Cape Charlea.

Before they were serviced for oil by the C5 CQastal Marina, by Labrador Airways and also by Woodward. All of now, none of these services are provided and they have to go, in the Winter, six milea on skidoo to Mary's ----- -- - ,...._ Harbour to get their mail. They have to go six miles on skidoo to go to the health clinic in Mary's Harbour. 'lbey have to qo six llliles on skidoo to qet supplies in the stores and whatever. And also in the Sprinq and in the Fall and Su.aer they have to qo by boat; The students thEIIIISelves after Grade IX have to live in Mary's Harbour and here they are only six miles away .

They are not ask.inq for pavement. They are askinq for a gravel road. They are not asking for a standard qravel ro&d, but j_ust somat,ping .; 3895

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1490 MB - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: that they can get by on. This petition has been presented fer the past seventeen years. Under this PC administration, four ministers of 'lransportation and Co11111unications have had it come across their desk and they were the former member~ Mr. Maynard, Mr. Doody, Mr. Morgan and now Mr. Brett. Seventeen years ~~ey have been trying to get this road and the main excuse is that it costs too much to demobilize the equipment, put it on CN and bring it in and mobilize it.

Now there is an airstrip being built in Mary's Harbour by Pentagon construction and the people feel that saving the taxpayers money through government, canadian and Federal, and particularly the roads, a provincial responsibility 1 and I hope -- · . -- -- the Premier will get up and turn around and say yes, it is under Dree, it is under the Coast of Labrador Dree Agreement. We should be very lucky we have the Federal Government because basically there would be nothing done down in Labrador. So I ask this House to support this petition,for a road from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour. 3896 -,.-- -----:~--

~ay 13, 19JO, Tape 1491, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: I am a little bit upset from time to time when I speak on areas of Labrador and because of the press wanting to cover the St. John's Municipal Council or some other areas, we do not get very much - MR. SPEAKER(Simms}: Order, please! MR. IUSCOCK: - press in the area. MR. SPEARER: Order, please! Order, please! The hen. member's comments should relate to the prayer of the petition. MR.

HISCOCK: So the prayer of the petition is basically that a road be built from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour to provide transportation and also, basical ,ly, to give them the proper services that they are entitled to in this Province. I ask the Premier to respond to this. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Further petitions? Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for the I would like to speak on the petition presented by my friend from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). I gather that no minister wishes to speak, or nobody on the other side; it is not confined to ministers. MR.

NEARY: Labrador. MR. ROBERTS: They are not interested in I think that is the moral that one would draw from it, they are not interested at all in the Labrador and I regret that. Because if there is any part of this Province that is most deserving of the kind of facility, kind of public service requested by this petition, it is this particular part of the Labrador portion of this Province, and I say that even though there are crying needs in my own constituency and 3897 - .-.. ___ _ ,...., _ . - ~ : -.· ~ --.......,....,;~ .. -~-· -.,---: .. ....,....,....,-.~

May 13, 1980, Tape 1491, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: in many others .throughout the Island portion of the Province. But I do not think there is any part of this Province, to my knowledge, and it is as extensive, I venture to say, Mr. Speaker, as that of most members of this House, there is no part of this Province that is as neglected, no part of this Province that is as needy of this kind of public service.

The mere fact that in 1980 the people in the community are petitioning for the construction of a road, not the more usual petition we see in this House for the upgrading or the paving of a road, . or the twinning of a road, or the building of a new road, but rather for the building of any road, a road. Now, I was not in the House during the Question Period yesterday,but apparently the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) got off a very cheap shot against Bill Rompkey in Ottawa.

I am not allowed to debate and so I will not, but let me say quite simply that the construction of this road is not the responsibility of the Government of Canada; the construction of this road is the responsibility of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and if we can get help from the Government of Canada through the DREE programme, well and good.

But we are quite ready in this Province, and I fully support our being quite ready, to put forth our constitutional requests and to say we want more power, we want more o~ the ability to maintain, to regulate the fisheries and what have you and that is fine, but, Mr. Speaker, before we are too quick to seize too much more power from the totality of governmental power in Canada, let us do that which is already clearly within our responsibility and that includes building a road 3896

May 13, 1980, Tape 1491, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: where a road needs to be built. And, Sir, if ever there was a place where a road needs to be built in this Province, it is a road along the Eastern coast of Labrador, or the Eastern shore of Labrador,and particularly the one that is asked for in this petition, the one that hooks up Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour and the one which we saw in the petition one day last week, I believe between Mary's Harbour and Port Hope Simpson, the next community up the coast.

It is something that ought to be done, Sir, and if the government really have any concern at all - we hear a lot of words about Labrador, we hear a lot of words, that the Premier once slept there. Like George Washington the Premier seems to have slept everywhere. Well, if the Premier once slept there and did his work there, all I say, Mr. Speaker, is let us see some action to follow upon those pious platitudes, let us turn those platitudes into reality, let us see the road built and see is started this year, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORD ERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER(Simms): Second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act To Adopt A Flag For The Provinc .e". Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F.B.ROWE: The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, I got up at fourteen minutes to six yesterday, which is not the most inspiring time to get up to speak, but when I did get up to speak to this particular motion, Mr. Speaker, I was subjected to a number of interjections, interruptions, catcalls, giggling, laughter and outright hysteria, Mr. Speaker, and although I found it personally irritating, I thought it was rather an insult to the 3899 ------ --- ---- -·· ·~· ... ---.·~··-- --

~ I May 13, 1980, Tape 1491, Page 4 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: people whom I have the honou ·r to represent, I thought it was a teeny bit disrespectful of the House . and d.egrading to the debate under discussion here at the present t,ime, and, although I cannot tell the Speaker what to do, I would hope that I could reques .t that I have the protection of the Chair in the remaining fourteen or fifteen minutes that I nave left. Mr. Speaker, I had personally hoped that I would be able to get up in this House and support a provincial flag when it was brought bef .ore the House.

However, Sir, when it was brought before the House I personally found the flag 3900 '-:·· ··-:·:-~-.--.--- ~~---:- ·- ·----- --,_.~-.,--

May 13, 198C Tape No. 1492 NM- 1 MR. F. ROWE: quite mind baffling, quite confusing, too symbolic, confusingly symbolic, too abstract, and for some peculiar reason really distasteful, and I was wondering how in fact my constituents would react if I came - MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. F. ROWE: Tell us how you are going to vote. Order, please~ - I already said how I was going to vote - how my constituents would react, and other people would react if I had to get up and personally say that I was not going to vote for this particular flag.

Since that time my anxieties are somewhat reduced because I have had numerous phone calls, and in fact letters from my district indicating,without exception,a negative reaction to the particular design of the flag, with all d•1e respect to the artist concerned and the members serving on the Committee. The people in my district,who have made representation to me in one way or ~e othe~ without exception have said that they do not like the design of the flag, they cannot see the symbolism in it. SQME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please~ MR. F. ROWE: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I conducted a little independent survey of my own and when I conducted that survey a lot of people sort of did not care kind of an attitude, did not care, but there was no positive response to this particular flag. So if I am to represent my constituents, which I intend to do in this particular case, I cannot in all conscience vote for this particular flag. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned yesterday that the Committee had set down five conditions for themselves with respect to the design of this particular flag, and I will skip over the first four of them because they are open to

interpretation, but the fifth condition, Sir, was that the flag be widely acceptable. Now, Sir, therein lies the basic and fundamental problem with the design of this flag. Because the Committee had twenty-seven hearings throughout the Province, they then had 3901 -------.......-- ·. ---

--.. -. --- May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1492 NM - 2 MR. F. ROWE: a number of designs made by Mr. Pratt, and it was the unanimous consent,second time round,for this particular design. That was the second choice, a unanimous decision made by the members of the Flag Committee. And, Sir, the fact that one of the conditions said that it had to be widely accepted presents a basic, fundamental problem here. Because there were only seven members, presumably representing the people of this Province, who had to make the decision as to whether this flag was widely acceptable or not. Now I submit, Mr.

Speaker, to han. members opposite that the only way to find out whether this flag is widely acceptable to the people of this Province is to show the flag that is presented to this House, show it to the people of this Province, to find out indeed whether it is widely acceptable. Nothing from my district and nothing that I have heard through the media or from reactions from all groups of life have indicated that this flag is widely acceptable. And it iS only because of the persistence of the Premier that apparently this flag is likely to go through. And we honestly do not know in .this House today, Mr.

Spe~er, whether this flag is widely acceptable to the people of this Province,and I would go further and say that I do not think it is in fact widely acceptable to the people of this Province and therefore unless we have positive proof that it 'is widely acceptable we should not be voting for this particular flag. MR. STAGG: Ask your colleagues. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I ask for the protection of the Chair,if you will,please. ~PEAKER (Butt): Order, please! The hen. the · 3902

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1493 so - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : member from Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mz:. F. 2Dwa} wishes to be heard in silence. ~D~: The member for Stephenville (Mr. P. Staqq) jus~ cannot shut up. MR. F. ROWE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I respect any medler who votes for or aqainst this particular flaq. I have the hiqhest respect for the Committee and for the artist. Therein lies another problem, Mr. Speaker, as one hon.member ~~entioned ,that probably another fundamental mistake was selectinq one artist; probably we could have had a number of artists. MR. HODDER: We did. MR. F.

HOWE: Well, the hon. member can speak to that if he wishes to afterwards. An artist was selected who had a very narrow discipline within the artistic world and therefore, you know, there was a very narrow ranqe from which the Committee had to make a selection. So I find the flaq just a little bit too abstract. I do not mind symboliSIII but as far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, the symboliSlll has to be meaninqful and we do not have meaninqful symbolism in this particular flaq. It is open to all kinds of

interpretation and there is tzouble with the intexpretation, and I indicated yestezday, Mr. Speaker, that the explanatory notes that came with this flaq have in fact been amended, have chanqed, one whole sentence has been taken out of it because even the explanatory note in this particular case was open to all kinds of different

interpretation and therefore the explanatory note itself has been taken out of the latest edition of the explanatory notes; however, we are s~.ill left with the saJIII!I desiqn of the flaq which can be open to all kinds of interp:r::etation. so, Sir, I will just simply say that I find it a little bit COlllplex as do the majority of the people wham I have spoken with in this particular instance on the flaq. And I submit that,if the flaq is to be meaninqful 1it should be simply me.ninqful, if it is to be symbolic it should be meaninqfu.Uy symbolic, it should be simple in its symbolism which it :!.s not and it does not reflect in any way whatsoever, 3903

,. l' May 13, 1980 Tape ~o. 1493 so - 2 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, that I can see, it does not reflect in any way the marine tradition$, tile aarine history or the marine envizeimllen:t of this Province • Ill fact, I understand from people at see that it does not fly wei! at sea.

Alld it is ironic, Mr, Speat•r, and I will repeat it aqain, it is ironic that in a Province with sud!. a ma.rine tradition and a marine history that this flaq can not express a "distress call. lo1!d I vould submit that DlliDY pleasure boats, llllU'lY fishinq boats_. ngt the canadian Navy; it will not be flying the Newfoundland flag - but there will be many ·boats and vesSt!ls flying this particular fla .9 and my UDdentandinq of it is that in o%der to show distress at sea you simply - MR. CARTER: can you distinqu;i.sb the Union Jack upside down? MR. F. ROWE: MR. CARTER: ~ SP~: . (Butt) MR. P.

JIOWB: Yes, I can because the hon. - (Inaudible) Order, please! 'l'he Union Jack, as the hon. member well lcnows, the white band in the top l•fthand c:omer is wider,and the IJD,ion Jack, when it is flown upside dbwn, is shown 3904 --~-:...,... ........ ~llllil·- ... - ~:-:~- "~----- -----~--~.--- ~ -· . ·-- ~ ---·: · :~· --:- -~· ... -~~~--

,.... May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1494 EL - l MR . F. ROWE: as a distress signal. And I might add that there are sixteen nations, I understand, that have a flag that is so geometrically perfect that if the flag is flown upside down, you know, you do not know whether it is right side up or upside down. Now, you know, it is a bit ironical and almost farcical, that in a Province that is so dependent upon the sea and has such a marine tradition of history about it, that this aspect of the flag was not eliminated, it was just an oversight. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: MR. F. ROWE: MR. G.

OTTENHEIMER: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question? Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will permit a question. If the hon, member were really shipwrecked or in trouble at sea, surely he would want something a bit more immediate than flying any flag upside down. You could shout for help or do something. MR. F. ROWE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is absolutely right, but it is the hon. members opposite who were trying to talk about the flag representing tradition, the flag representing our past, the flag representing our history and one of the greatest symbolisms, one of the greatest traditions is the very thing that I am talking about, that a flag can be inverted to show the distress call.

Now, obviously we are living in the jet age, the space age and there are more rapid ways of showing distress than simply flying the flag, but it is hon. members opposite who . h.:ve been talking about tradition and hon, melllbers on this side who have been talking about tradition so you cannot, you know, have your cake and eat it too, in that particular respect, MR. F. STAGG : Get on to your next point. Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) MR. F. ROWEs Mr.

Speaker 1 I am simply going to ask the member to be named or request that the Speaker give some consideration to naming the member because he has been persistently and consistently defying the Chair, yesterday and again today. 3905 - ......,--.---. - --.- r- '~- ...... -·

__... May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1494 EL - 2 ¥R. S • NEARY : This is not funny, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The hon. member wishes to be heard in silence. If hon. members on either side continue to interrupt him, then I will have to take more drastic measures. The hon. the member for Trinity Bay de Verde. AN HON. MEMBER: llame himl Name himl AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. STAGG: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down, boy. Sit down. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. F. STAGG: Mr.

Speaker, it is a tradition in this House that reparte back and forth across the floor is allowed and this sort of thinq is certainly an honoured tradition. Now, it is not correct that an hon~ member can sb.nd up and demand that the Speaker enforce the rules for him that are allowed to be flexible or whatever for other ~ers. So, if the Chair is directinq its attention at me, I think that we have to have consistency on that throUCJhout and there will be no reparte whatsoever in this House. MR. S. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of ~er, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour, I believe is well aware that what the member for Stephenville (F.Sta9'9'l did was disguise a point of order actually as a challenqe to the ruling of the Chair. And I: would submit, Your Honour, that that is completely un- -- parliamentary, completely out of order and that Your Honour uk tl).e boD.. ·.-­ gentleman to withdraw his remarks because it is indirectly a chal-'.enqe to the Chair - or name the member for Stephenville. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. 3906

__.. Hay 13 , 1980 Tape No. 1495 D W - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): I would rule there 'is no poinf of order and I would ask all hon. members if they would raise the level of debate here in this House and allow the hon. gentleman to be heard in silence. The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, nobody was looking forward with pride more than I was to be able to stand up and support what r consider to be a flag that was representative of this particular Province 1 to represent the Province itself, to fly along side of it the Union Jack to represent the Commonwealth and to fly on the other side of it the Maple Lea~ to represent "the nation. But I have a very strong conviction, Mr. Speaker, that some- how or other there should have been a little more symbolism shown in the flag with respect to the Union Jack.

I am n~t submitting that the Union Jack should have been the ~la~~ the Royal Canadia~ Legion is not asking to have the Union Jack as the provincial flag. But, Mr. Speaker, even the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) indicated that he found the design of the flag to be personally a bit dis- comforting, I believe a personal discomfort to him, he did not like it, a personal discomfort. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can only say that s:!e years ago when I was first pre- scribed castor oil 1I found the same personal discomfort and I am afraid here what we have is a situation where the Premier of this Province is prescribing the same kind of personal discomfort on the people of Newfoundland without allowing them to express their opinions and put this design to the proper acid test. I go -back to my original funda- mental point about the fundamental problem that we have heretthat the flag has to be widely acceptable and 1 in order 3907 ---·-- ·- ----- --··--. __ ._,. .. - --·--·:---·~·"

,... May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1495 DW - 2 I'.R. F. ROWE: to find out whether the flag {s widely acceptable 1we have to put it to the acid test and the only acid test is to now show that flag widely throughout the Province , get substantial feedback from the people of this Province with respect to the flag. If it is widely acceptable that condition would have been fulfilled and we could accept the flag. But at the present time, Mr. Speaker, we have no idea in the world whether this particular flag is widely acceptable or not. And all of the feedback that I have had so far, Mr.

Speaker, has been unfortunately negative. And personally I find the design of the flag to be displeasing and I would have liked to have seen a flag wherein I could appreciate the simplicity and the symbolism to a greater exte~t. For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I have t~ .in all conscience,vote against this particular design. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I do not intend to speak very long.I just want to make a few penetrating, in- t e 11 i gent , cogent , apropos remarks on this debate which will put the whole thing in perspective. Mr. Speaker, I should first, like so many others before me, offer my congratulations to the committee who had the res)onsibility_ for holding hearings throughout the Province and gathering together a composite of all the opinions of the people of our Province in coming forward with the design that we are debating today.

I think they did an excellent jobo I think the fact that both sides of the House were represented on the committee and they came to an unanimous decision about it says something about this House and I think it says something very good about this ~ouse. I must confess, Mr. Speaker, that 3908

:·tay 13. 1980 Tape No. 1495 ow - 3 OR. J. COLLH:S: I find a little bit d~s ~res si~g . quite honestly,and a little bit strange that the work of the committee was not more accepted bv some members. Because we have hear~ especially in the last few weeks, a fair bi t of comment upon the value of havino Select Committees. As a matter of fact, the government: has been crit .icized for its t 3909 . _, ~- ... --

May 13,1980 Tape No. 1496 AH-1 DR. COLLINS: reluctance in agreeing to setting up certain select committees on subjects of importance and I find it a little bit distressing that when we set up a select committee that that mechanism then seems to not please anyone. The findings of such a mechanism arenot found to fulfill the purpose for which it was set up and I find that a little strange. But nevertheless I do not myself 1 and I do not wish my remarks in any way to derogate the work of this particular select committee.

I think it was an excellent select committee and I think the work they produced is very, very commendable. Mr. Speaker, I was extremely pleased when I heard that the flag was going to come forward. I cannot say I am personally a great flag waver. I suppose I have put up a flag in front of my house two or three times in my life type of t~ing,but nevertheless I really felt that the Province needed its own flag and I was extremely pleased when government decided to initiate a flag debate.

I think it was a brave thing to do because , of course, this has been suggested before and it did not come off and there might have been some hesitancy on that score to bring it forward again. But it was brought forward and I think it is an extremely good thing to have been brought forward. Now when I heard this,I tended to have a few preconceptions myself, and the preconceptions I had of the flag we should have are quite different from what the committee came up with. I do not mind saying that 1 and I do not think in any way that that remark is unusual.

I doubt if anyone in this House actually preconceived what this flag would be after the committee had gotten through with its work. The preconception I had 1quite honestly 1was that we would have a much plainer type of flag, that we wouid perhaps have a plain background and I wou~d have favoured, myself 1 just two symbols on it. I was thinking really of two triangles, just representing the two·~eographic areas of the Province and that would seem to me quite a good flag. Now I drew a lesson from that myself because, and I would like to reiterate that, that seemed to me an excellent flag.

I was really very pleased with it. The hen. Minister of Mines and 3910 ~ ---.,_.. . .,.....,..-,.",~~- ------- ·- '-""':

May 13,1980 Tape No. 1496 AH-2 ElR COLLINS: Energy (Mr.Barry) has already ment i on~ this, we discussed this together and we sort of bo~~ came to the same conclusion and as a result of that we actually went to Christopher Pratt and we put it to him that would he draw that type of flag so we could see how it was. Now this is where I got my first lesson on it. He was not enthusiastic about it . He sort of said, yes, I see what you mean 1 I think that would be quite good, but he was not actually enthusiastic and I_ do not believe he ever did do it. I was a little bit surprised at that.

I showed the same design to a few other people and they also, again, did not show any great enthusiasm for it. so the lesson I got out of it was that an individual can have very fixed ideas on what he himself likes but that is by no means what other people like. It by no means goes to presuppose what other people will like and I think that this is what we are seeing in this debate. We all have certain preconceived ideas about what the flag should be but they are by no means shared by many others in most cases. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like just to make a few comments on what I have heard outside about the flag.

First, in my own constituency, the great and historic district of St. John's South, one of the great fishing districts of this Province and one of the earliest settled areas of this Province, well,my constituents in the numbers that have contacted me - and a great number have not contacted me, so I take from that that my constituents by and large ere not riled up by any means about this flag. I think my constituents are accepting of this fla~- but of the numbers that have contacted me 1 the majority have been in favour of the flag.

I was amazed at this.Some people have taken the trouble to phone me and say, 'I want to say that I am in favour of the flag and I hope you vote for it.' Of course,! have said I will. I have made no secret that I would support this flag. I though that that was rather remarkable because in most instances if you put something forward usually you get the negative reactions coming back. You do not very often get the positive reactions. I suppose it is the great 3911 -- ---- · ... ---- ·-... -~---=----··

,_ #' ., May 13,1980 Tape No. 1496 AH-3 DR. COLLINS: silent majority. They usually do not bother, shall we say, they just assume that if it is acceptable it will be acceptable to the majority and they do not bother to do anything about it. I think that that wa£' 3912 ~~--- --- ---- ~- ---~ ~-- ---- ~ ---

...... .. :::,: May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1497 so - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: a rather remarkable thing that peo~le did take the trouble, and there was a l!Uljority in rrry instance • Now~ I do not know what happens in other conatituenei.es but in my particular case a majority of the people who contacted me ;~aid yes.

Now this majority was just recent, jast in the last day or so 35 a matter of fact, and I suspect th~t the debate in this House is being followed quite closely and there is this feeling that the negative response that has been so played up, shall we say, needs to be counteracted and I think this is whr .-;me's constitaents are now coming fo:r:ward to say, "Do not listen to all of the negativity, there is some positivity out here also." The other matter that perhaps comes forward to my ears anyway outside is that what about the traditional eJiblem of Newfoundland; you know, is that a~fault in this flag?

Should it not have a traditional emblem of Newfoundland? And when one asks what is the traditional amblem 1that is where you get the hesitation. i~aw, I just made a little list of the things. that - and it is not a unique list, I UJ sure anyone can compile it - l!tut some people say there should be a fish on it. Now, that is only natural, we are a great fishincr Province,Before - were a Province we were a great fishing nation but,on the other hand also, why not a seal? SCIIIe people, I sdppose, haw mentioned the seal.

Cert&inl.y, I suppose, in the recent contro'V'I!rsy over the seal hunt, Newfaundland i~ more equated with the seal hunt ,than it is the fishery in some people's views. Other people ha'Ve -ntioned a caribou and, of coune, the caribou was the qreat einb1em in the First World War. I suppose Newfoundlanders in the First World War did not fight so 1111ch under the Union Jadt , their emblem was the caribou. They carried the caribou on their shoulder tabs and this is what was distincti'Ve about our reqiment i11 the First WOrld War. If one Nntiona the caribou, why not the 11100se?

There are mora moose in this country than the caribou. I suppose the moose is more distinctive 1if one is looking for large wilalife. It is not native, it was introduced in this country where the caribou was not , I errant that 1 but we aze livinq in the present contest and certainly in the present context the ~se is the much more pleatiful, larqe wildlife qame. 3913 ·~. --.--.--.----.--.-~-- --.......... ........,_., _ _,_, ··---- ··~---- -- ... ------

........ • '~- - May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1497 SD - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: Then there is the Clog - the Newfoundland dog·· : Wh~t can be more typical of Newfoundland( Should that not be the embiem, then? Find as someone mentioned in this &,;;~ a little while ago 1 if we are talking about a doq ,why not a Labrador dog? Why confine it to the Island of Newfoundla:'ld? So you can have a couple of dogs on it, I suppose. Then there is the - AN HON • MEMBER: Labrador retriever. DR. J. COLLINS: Labrador retriever, or a husky, I suppose a huslty would be more t¥Pical of Labrador.

Then there is the flower, the pitcher plant, that is in meny respects, I suppose , more tradi ticmal than any of the others I haw mentioned. *re recently 1 then 1 if one wants to get into g%0Wing thinqs ,there is the branch, the brench of a tree which is on the so-called Labrador flag. Well, it is a local flag, it is not a provincial flag. It is a regional flag, the flag for Labrador, a very attractive flaq,r aight adm.t. but it is a regional flag. Then it has been mentioned ~at a ship should be the traditional emblem.

And I think. one can justify that in 111any ways. we am a great fishing nation and therefore ships are part of our heritage and part of our tradition,but in addition to that,Nevfoundlanders are gmat sea-n; Newfoundlllllders haw ranged all owr the world, I suppose. !n previous days, small little ships ~ing down to spaiB or going down to the Caribbean was almost second nature to captains , to skippers who ca.a out of saall little =-nitieaf very little education,in many cases, almost no fonlill navigation instruction, and they would range all over the Atlantic- North and South.- so a ship would be wry appropriate.

And then, of course, the coat of Anus of Nevfoandlazui. • that coal.d be an emblem • . - SO how is one qoinq to pick one out of all of those?

You certainly can not •. -- - :.----- -- -- ·- -- _ : -=· ___ ..., ___ _ • put them all on i~'th&t would look like a doq'a breakfut;although it has been -- ---· -- -- -- -- auqcJested that pe:rhapa we should have a Newfaundland dog chasinq a seal .. with a pitcher plant in his 110uth and z:unninq through the trees or something or other like that,but clearly that would be a 'facitious thing to do • So r thi!lk that when people say, •w should haw a traditional embl- on the flag~ I think the 3914 --- -·--- .......

"- May 13, 1980, Tape 1498, Page l -- apb DR. COLLINS: problem arises' · what is the traditional emblem? And I think you would get as much debate on that as you would get on this present flag. Now, that is the comment outside. I did not have the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to attend all the debate in this House, I missed the first few days, and there may have been a different tone there than I heard since I have been in the House during this continuing debate. But I find this debate is a little strange,actually.

Firstlv, when I first entered the debate, when I first listened to the debate last Friday 1many of the comments had a rather hysterical nature, I thought, they were quite outside what was called for in terms of what the flag was. It was called a dishrag, it was called ·a disgrace, it was called many derogatory things which clearly could not be so. I think if one just looked at the flag as something to be presented, there is no reason to call it by those terms. But as the days have gone by there has been less hysteria.

As a matter of fact. for those who felt thev could not vote for · the flaq, who cannot vote for the flaq, vou can almost now hear a note of sorrow in their voices as though - you know, 'I wish I could vote for it'. There is a feeling of acceptance even in those few short days. In that regard I think that this debate has been good. But there are anotner few points about the debate that I find rather strange and that is there seems to be a desire to equate the flag, in some people's minds, almost totally with the wars. Well, now, I do not quite understand that.

One realizes that flags and armed forces go together but even if you 3915

........ May 13, 1980, Tape 1498, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: take the Union Jack, the Union Jack was never evolved as a war flag, the Union Jack was essentially evolved as a means of bringing together three disparate nations into one. There was a combination of the Cross of St. George with the Cross of St, Andrew and the Cross of St.

Patrick and they were all brought together into the one flag, It was not set up to stimulate war although the wars may have and, I suppose, disputes may have come out of that union, but, nevertheless, essentially to show that these three nations were now being brought back together into a united kingdom. I do not, in my own mind, like to associate flags with wars and I think that the war ethic in terms of flags is quietly going away.

The same way with the United States flag~ It is not really related to war as such, it is related, again, to the original three States of the Union and then the increasing numbers of States that came into the Union. Even the Russian flag, I suppose, you could say it is dedicated to work; it is not dedicated to war with the hammer and sickle on it. I regret in some respects that in many people's comments they say that this flag is not acceptable because it does not remind us of the wars our people have partaken in, and I think that is almost beside the point. Mr.

Speaker, another thing that I think - this is in regard to the Onion Jack and I can understand why some people would want the Union Jack very strikingly in there. The Union Jack is in there to some extent. There are certain aspects of this new flag which would remind one of the Union Jack • But to put the Union Jack in there in a very prominent 3916 - ~--- -----~7"" --~-:-- ------·-._ ~- · - ~-':'-.

' .dl. ' May 13, 1980, Tape 1498, Page 3 -- apb DR. COLLINS: way would seem to me to suggest that we are a small part of a big whole. Now, I think that is not the modern idiom, the modern idiom now is that small is beautiful. So we should have a flag that relates to us. We are a,small nation, a small Province .but, nevertheless, we should not have our flag reminding us that we are just a, shall we say, a pimple on the back of the frog; it should remind us that we ourselves are an entity unto ourselves. Mr.

Speaker, as I say, I do not intend to speak for very long on this, I just wish to bring forward the point of view ~hy I feel that the comments that have been made in many respects against the flag do not seem to have very much validity "for me and,on a more positive note, I think that we have a very distinctive flag here. I must admit when I first saw it I liked it but I did not love it. But I think now that I see more and more of it, I~ beginning to love it, I think it is a really good flag. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS: One particular aspect of the flag I did not like, but even that, now, I am beginning to get a certain fondness for it and I think as time goes on this will become a very lovable flag. 3917 ~-~~-;--.,.._..-....,.~.~-~-~ ~ - ------- - ----- ·-~- ----- ..

....... ·- May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1499 NM- 1 DR. COLLINS: Certainly it gives me the impression that it is a Northern Flag. You know 1I can see,shall we say 1Iceland flying this flag, or Norway flying this flag. But we will fly the flag. And I think it is appropriate that it has a sort of Northern flavour because we are a Northern people, and Northern people are used to putting up with hardships and I think this portrays our shall we say fighting against adverse elements. It seems to me in that respect a very appropriate flag. And iinally I think it is a very artistic flag.

Not just because say one of the more prominent artists of our Province was behind it,but just in its own right I think it is a very artisitic flag. The fact that it is not divided totally, equally both sides, but there is a little - the part near the pole is smaller than the other part, there is an artistic element in this flag which I find is very pleasing and I think it will be accepted as an artistic distinctive, appropriate flag for Newfoundland in the very near future and throughout the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ ---- MR. SPEAKER (Buttl...:.. The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HOOD~ Mr.

Speaker, I believe thi.s is the first time I have ever stood in the House of Assembly and spoke in a different manner than my colleagues. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: I,for one,who am,I think,consicered a very partisan figure in this House at this particular time feel that I cannot support the majority of my colleagues but must vote with my conscience I suppose for thi.s flag. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if you look at the criticism that has been levelled at this flag over the past days, and I , have been listening both here in the House and to ~le open-line programmes and through various comments that have come to me from people I have met, I find that the criticisms come from all types of people but for all different 3918 . ~ .. ~.-· •• ..,:..w .... _,-·- .

....... May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1499 NM- 2 MR. HODDER: reasons, and I believe that wh .atever the committee which I served on, had brought in, whichever design, whatever type of design we had brought in, because of these divergent views in the Province we would have had a great deal of criticism. I might say, Mr.

Speaker, that I do not think if we are to have a distinctive provincial flag for this Province that a referendum would do the trick, because referendums, if we look at the situation in Quebec, are fought and very many extraneous issues come into referendums and I do not think even then that we would come up :nth a flag.

I think the answer would be that we would again fail to bring a distinctive flag into the Province and I have noted that on both sides of this House that there has been a desire for a distinctive flag although some members, and that is up to them, and I respect them for it, some members have decided that they do not like the flag because of the design.

But even amongst the members of this House of Assembly we have given a number of reasons why we do not support the flag and I believe that anything that may have come to this House, or the committee would ,have brought to this House, would have raised the same type of furor I suppose the word is, in the_press. Mr. Speaker, many of the members here who have spoken have talked about polls they have done with their constituents.

Now I always understand that the best type of poll was one that is conducted yourself, that the telephone poll is not nearly as accurate as the type of an enquiry which a person makes in a sort of nondescript manner in just asking how do you feel the flag - what do you think of the flag? You know, whenever I have been in a restaurant or in a store and I happen to be chatting with the person serving, I have said to them, "Do you like the flag?" And do you know, Mr. Speaker, at the present time, outside of certain interest groups in the Province, I am running about eighty per cent.

Last week I was running ninety-five per cent for the flag. I am down to about eighty per cent, perhaps seventy-five per cent now. But the majority of the people I talked to say they like the design. Now as far as calls from my district, I have 3919 r~- .....,:-~.--.~. -.T" ...... -:t:-:-.-;--~- -----..·

l•!ay 13, 1980 Tape No. 1499 NM - 3 NR. HODDER : bad three . One was a person who said they did not l~e the flag . Another one was a very good friend of mine who is a member of the Canadian Legion and when ! explained to him my reasons for voting for the flag he said, "Yes, go ahead with. it,boy. Now ! have something else to talk to you about, that was only one of the reasons I cal le d you ." I believe, Mr .

Speaker, that the issue may have been blown out of proportion and that basically if we were to do a poll now of the Province we might be surprised because there is a sLlent majority on this issue; we might be surprised at what the poll ....... 3920 "1 :',•.-;::,-· ~ ·.!)~· :" ;r; ..... ~! '•.:..· .~- ~---:-~,.: . _;..f.;, .. s::'!} ... Z. · • >~-~ :. ;: ~-~~~ ·:;:-:-""--- ----~- --- ;~:----,, ·-

' .-r-:>r ""; ~,. -·; M&y 13, 1980 Tape No. 1500 EL - 1 MR. J. HODDER: would show,. Not only that,but if we did a poll now and one two years down the road, I have no doubt in my mind that people would, once it starts to fly in the Province, once if it is passed here in this House, then down the road the Newfoundlanders will become very proud of that fl&g. Mr.

Speaker, I just wanted to say a word at the beginning about something I read in !he Daily News this 1110rJU;nq, lUld I am quite aw&re that newspapers sometimes report inaccurately but I saw there th&t the Canadian Legion had said that they would go out and try to defeat - now, I do not knew if they said it or not,but it was attributed to them,that they wuld try to defeat the members of the HOUse of Assembly who vote for this flag.

Now, Mr, Speaker, all I can say to the Canadian Legion,whoa I respect deeplY•and I might say and I hate to brinq in, you know, persona! and falllily thinqs into this matter, although other members have done it and I suppose I have a right to do» as well, lllut, you know, Mr. Speaker, I a.11 named after an uncle of mine who I was very close to who vas at Dlmkirk. I still hold a commission in the Can- adian Anly or at leut I suppose I do.

I have a plaque or a scroll which is siqned by Douglas H&rkness,wbo was then the Minister of National Defense,which says that I am a 2nd Lieutenant and I have eseen the inside of a Centurion tank when I worked with the Lord Strothcona House- in calgary from sarcee Barracks,and I have not been dis- associated with the Legion.

As a matter of fact, it was only by accident that I am not a member of the Stephenville Legion becau.e I waa invited to join and I just did not get around to paying my fee,and had full intentions of doinq so, although they JUY not c&re to have me at the present time tro. acme of the atateaents that they have JUde. Well, Mr. Speaker, if the Canadian Leqion wants to qo out and try to defeat .y in the next election because I am voting for the flaq,well, then so be it. I will continue to try and represent my district in the best way possible. And if they are successful in that, 3921 -.~ - ~· ~-· _ -.-· - - -~--- -

May 13, 1980 Tapa No. 1500 EL - 2 MR. J. HODDER: well then, I am not sure that they would not have done me a favour. I certainly made as good a living before I got in here as I have made since I have been in here,and if anything, threats of that nature, if I were voting the other way, I think, would force me to vote for the flag if I had been intending to vote against it.

I think that is a very i~l-advised tactic and somewhat against the principles of the Legion, I think when they talk about freedom of dem- ocracy and one thing and the other and they talk about going down and trying to defeat members indiscriminately whether they are good meabers in their district or poor members in their district or whatever they are, I think they get elected on their perfor.Dance not whether they supported a particular issue in this House of Assembly or not. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the design is sound. It is a sound design.

I believe that we will be proud of it down the road and I believe that it will stand with the other provinces, the flags of the other provinces of Can~d&. When I look at ... the other provinces of CanadA I see two flags, the one froa Ontarie and Manitoba which you cannot tell on a flagpole, I would challenge anybody, if the~ were flown down there and we looked through that window, you would not be able to distinguish erne froa the other. Also, the flaqs of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories are very much the same.

One of the nice designs that c11111e to our cODDittee fr0111 a gentleman in corner Brook was allllost identical to .nother provincial flag. We felt that we must bring in a distinctive flag. But, one thing, Mr. Speaker, we have been members of this coaaittee or the cODDittee memllers have been wrestling with this issue for so- sill .on~ and I think all of as were quite aware that there would be a qreat deal of __ critici-.

As a matter of fact, I thought there would be more criticism, ~ would have thought that the criticism would have been even qreater because I think that 1110st of the criticisms '- 3922 ~~"!"VV'"~--~,_-- ..... -.~·-.-~---:·· --· ...

,.._ ...... May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1500 EL - 3 MR. J. HODDER: are coming from certain -groups rather than from the general public and I talk about the - and each one of those groups have had a different approach to why they feel the flag is wrong. But, Mr.Sp<!Uer, we found as we went around the Province that everyone had their own design in their head. Every flag that came to us was a different flag and very ~y of them had very little in c:omar;,n. I will say that -.there were a good number but not the majority that in some way the Onion Jack was represented.

But in an awful lot of them,the Union ,Jack was no better represented than it is in the flag which we have submitted to this House. IIR. O'l"l'ENHEIMER: Not as well represented. MR. J. HODDER: Not as well represented, that is quite right. But, we did find that everyone had their own disign. we had three groups who had specific designs~one was the Union Jack, the other was the Pink, White and Green aDd then,a.t the last meeting,we had the Legion flag. We decided · , and it was a. colllllli ttee dec is ion~~ cose in with a geometric design.

We a.cided on a geometric design because we believe that all Newfoundlanders down the road could associate with an abstract design, a geometric design mare so than if we had come in with .any of the things that have been mentioned by members here, the Newfoundland dog, the Pitcher Plant 3923 .·

' -...-~- i~ay 13, 1980 Tape No. 1501 DW - l MR . J. HODDER: or whatever have you: there has been many weird and wonderful things suggested and there were many weird and wonderful flags that carne before us and there were many, many good ones that before us and some of them that I liked greatly and some of them had the Union Jack incorporated in them and some did not. But, Mr. Speaker, we have in this Province many groups and we have many representatives of the nationalities and we should not forget that. Some are more interested in flags than others. We have many founding peoples.

I suppose if we started from the beginning we would have the Inuit, the Naskaupi, the Micmac, the French, the Enqlish, the Irish. the scottish,.the Welsh, representatives of the Cornmon­ wealth.countries, representatives of Asian countries and the Near East, the Far East and I suppose we may even have some representatives in this Province of the South American countries and of our ;aeighbour, the united States. But, Mr.

Speaker, if we are to bring in a flag that all people could be proud of down ~he road then what better than a geometric design because a flag is a thing of the mind and it is a thing that we have to come to accept. We found, t~ give one example, that while we were - I suppose I should not even say the Avalon Peninsula- in St. John's we found that the Pink, White and Green was acceptable to a great number of people, but at the same time we found there was a 'religious antagonism to it.

I do not believe there should be;r particu- larly thought that the Pink, White and Green was quite a nice flag 1 but there were religious antagonis~ outside of st. John's. Why should this ·9e? I think it should not be, but nevertheless it is there. And by goi~g the geometric route I think we went the right one. Now, I believe that the decision was sound and that in the future this flag will be a more unifying 3944 ---.,:... .- ~--. ·------·· --· -···

....... May 13, 1980 1•!R. J. HODDER: we could have made. Tape No. 1501 GH-2 force than any oth~r decisicn It is a symbol to other provinces and other countries of the world. If you look at them, the great ones are geometric. The Union Jack, it is geometric. People have stood in this House and said 1 'Mr. Speaker, my mind is not abstract, Newfoundlanders' minds are not abstract,' but, Mr. Speaker, if the union Jack had never been a flag and Britain had some other flag and we had brought in the union Jack, I am sure that the same criticism could be levelled at it, it is an abstract flag.

If we look at the great ones, the union Jack is a great flag, the Stars and Stripes, the flag of Norway and Finland, both of these I ~ike particularly, the flag of France - by the way, the flag of France does not ' have the Fleur de Lys 1 as I heard someone on Open Line say, it is a tri-colour. You know, all of the great flags of the world are made up of stripes or stars or geometric designs.

Some have half moons, some have stars, you know, but basically all the flags of the world, and the Committee looked at them all, all the flags of the world are flags which do not symbolize anything in those countries. ~aybe the colours on them mean something, but the colours, as being levelled at this one, could be taken, and this flag - someone I heard say that this flag could be taken and given to any country and you could rationalize it, but any of the flags of the world the same thing can happen. What we need, Mr.

Speaker, is a flag that we can identify with in the future, and a geometric design is certainly the best thing that all groups and all areas of this Province can identify with. The question of the Labrador flag has been raised. It has been raised throughout the Province. There is nothing to represent Labrador. Now, the Labrador flag, by request of the Labrador delegation that came to the Flag Committee and said, "We would like to keep 3925 c:'!""ft"'~~- ·--- ·-·-~·- ··· ~---:"'-- -----· --- ;;·---.-:

"- May 13, 198 0 Taoe No. 1501 GH - 3 ~R. F!O DD!:R : our own fla g" . In cas e non . members do not know that,any area of this Province has the right to fly their own flag, and the Labrador flag is a very beautiful flag. It was one that all the Cammittee membe~s liked. As a ~attar of fact, I think that most of us would have liked to have brought it in and adopted it as our pr ·ovi.ncial flag, but Labrador would like to have it as their own. '!'here is no separatism in that. I represent the district of Port au Port. They have every right to fly a flaq if they so wish. There is no .great feeling for it out there.

They are more concerned about more pressing matters, perhaps, but they have every right to bri,ng in a flag to represent their area just as any school or any corporation has a right to bring in its flag. Well, ~r. Speaker, unlike many others and unlike much of the criticism I hi!\ve heard, I feel that Newfoundlande "rs are :ready to accept the new flag, although it is an emotional thing. r· feel, also, that if emotion had not l!een expressed ·in this and the flag had just come in and nobody had said anything about it, I think it would have been very poor indeed.

If nothing else 3926 •• ~~~~·-------~_,;,- .--- •• ..,....,..~ ~ ---·: .. 1· -.. --- ~ ·-~- -~--~-. , ____ _

' May 13, 1980 Tape 1502 MB - 1 MR. J. HODDER: has happened,that the people of the Province have become very aware of their new flag and I think that down the road, down the road 1 Mr. Speaker, once they have seen it flying it will be a matter of pride to all Newfoundlanders. I feel that this flag represents our past and it looks forward to a. bright future. I believe it, I believe in it but I respect those who disagree with it. But basically I have to follow my own conscience in this matter.

But I will say this that I,in five years time,will be proven right, that . this flag, in five years time , the issue will have diad and we will be all proud of it as Newfoundlanders. So whether I stand against or for my colleagues, whether I can an independent stand or not I feel that sometime some of them will come along and say to me, boy you are right, that is not a bad flag. Mr. Speaker, t.~e flag• has been called a bunch of triangles.

I think I have referred to this before 1 but the Union Jack is such a flag.And when I remember the flag del::fate, the debate over the Canadian Flag, and I do remember it because I remember I was a student here at the University, and it was flying on Kenmount Road, someone had put the flag there for everyone to see it and the types of comments that I heard at that particular time about that flag were very very reminiscent of the types of co111111ents we are hearing naw. Yet, Mr.

Speaker, we have in this Province now great pride for that flag and while some may still not like the design but everyone who sees it, particularly if you are in a foreign country, I think they realize that ' that represents ---- - something and that is a little bit of Canada there, or a canadian lives there, or that is the ~dian Elllbassy · or whatever. Another issue about this flag that keeps popping up on the Open Lines is Mr. Pratt's statement that he would not IIIOdify the flag. I think ,Mr. Speaker, that that has to be straigAtened out.

I was at his home when he made that statement .and his statement was this. Be did not rule out that this was the only flag or that if .we did not accept this flag that he would tear up his designs and would have nothing else to do with the c:c-ittee. He just said to us simply, and he 3927 - --. .-~.~~ · - :::--·--..-- --,... ..... ._.... -:--- ·-= .·- ·~ ·.---- ·~ ·

May 13, 1980 Tape 1502 MB - 2 MR. J. HODDER: said it before we saw the flag, he said, ":If you do not like the flag, fine. If you do not like the various designs, if none of them please you, that is fine. :It will not hurt me in the least. I: have put some work into it.

I: have worked very hard at it but I: do not expect that everything I do is going to please everybody and, please ,if you do not like it tell me so.~· But he said, ":If you do like it, I would like this, I would like you to ta.ke it in its entirety." He said, ":If I do a painting and I put it on the market, I do not expect people to ta.ke their paint brushes and change it. • That is an artist's pJrerogative. :It was said in only that way. He did not say ta.ke this flag or leave it as has been bandied about.

What he said was what any artist or any designer, :If I had been commissioned to design that flag I: would have said exactly the same thing, if you do net like this particular design, I have worked on it for some time, tell me, I will scrap it, let me do another one. Why this issue has become such a great one ~~t it is being shoved down our throats and .that sort of thing I do not see it, Mr. Spearker, I do not see it at all. Now, another agrument that has been put forward in the House. Why was it that we only had one artist? Well, that is totally untrue.

Other artists wera solicited and as we travelled across the Province many artists and designers~·One of the designs came in almost sold me. I alit not sure if I did no~ like it better than the new flaq. But I must say that I did not. But we had people who were professional designers • professional artists, who submitted flaqa to our Collmi ttee and they were quite good ones. And Mr. Pratt did only what ~other--artists had done, he had ' 3926 .~~~'f"'"".....,..---.........- .... ~---~- .. -:.,...... ,~-- --··---- ---- -·---- .,. ·• ___ ,.. ___ ,~-...- .,_,_- •o• ----··--· • ···-~ • • ·-·r-•-.---.·~-··-

....... May 13, 1980 Tape No.l503 so - l MR. J. HODDER: offered his services to help us in any way he could. And we sat down with him, had .a long meeting, at one point we even got to looking at the various flaqs of the world to try to come - because you are dealing with an abstract thing - to ~e consensus as to what the Committee wanted and what we expected that he would do.

And, you knov, certainly tile principles under which we had decided, the principles that the Co111111ittee had decided which haw been mentioned in the House before ,.but These, I think, weze carried out by the artist in as good a way and as well as anything that I have eve~ seen. And when I saw the flag, I liked it. There were variations of the design, the flag , as has been said . was not everyone's second choice but the basic designs were much the same and I would say that had either one of the designs come before the House, the other designs 1 we would have had the same type of argunents. Mr.

Speaker, before I finish I want to address myself to comments that rude remans can be made about the flag. Well, Mr. Speaker, I will tell you, there is not a flag in this world that rude remarks can not be made about. I am sure that if you were to ask a group of Iranians what they thought of the American flag or vice versa that you would find many rude remarks. And I would say, Hr.

Speaker, that a flag is something that is in the eyes of the beholder but I would say that if there are ~e remarks that ara being made about the fl.aq then I haft not heard any and if hon. members in this House have heard them I think they should stand up and tell us what they were because I haft not. I have heard criticism, - do not like the design, there is too much blue at the back, there is llot enough red at the front or this sort of th~g or the Union Jack is not there but I have not heard any rude remarks.

I ~d Sincerely say if there are rude remarks let us ~t -:lust allude to thea, why not bring them out because this is a very important issue for the Province . MR. J. HODDER: But ailyhow , Hr. Spe alter, a flag is an emotional issue and pezhaps it should be bom in controversy, as I said before. And maybe it does or maybe it does not represent the majority 3929 - -~ --~ -._...,·-- - ---.-- . --- - ~-~-

'- May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1503 SD - 2 MR. 3. HODDER: of Newfoundlander&.~ feelings but we will not know that until we have , perhaps- as I have said before , if we do a poll that would yield some results hut I would say that might surprise us ascwell but down the road we might not find that the same tlUng would hold maybe even five or six months down the road. But, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I feel that the overwhelming feeling o~ the silent majority, which is the great majority on this issue in this Province, is to quit talking about the flag and let as get on with the business of the Province. MR.

ROBERTS: Hear, hear. MR. J. HODDER: I called one of my good supporters who I think to be a kind of a populist who talks to people and I said to him, what do you think of the flag? He said, "Boy, I do not see much wrong with it but I had a chat with a group of people the other night, there wu a bunch of us playinq poker, n and he said, "then}eneral feel.i;n9 was that - MR. F.B. ROWE: A gamblers' association. MR. J. HODDER: - I did not say that I was playing, Mr. Speaker, but he sii.id, "The general feeling was qet off the flag~ and if you realize, Mr.

Speaker, that I represent the highest unemployment area in the Province, although nobody will give me statistics on it except ·we have school children go door to ~czrr and get those statistics 1 but I represent the highest unemployment area in the Province and I think it is ti11111 that we voted aqahst it or for it,wbichever way the han. members of this House have decided to go 1 and then let us get down to the Province's business. And my final re~~ark is if only, ~.

Speaker, the unemployment issue in this Province could raise as 11111ch emotion as ' this fla9 issue has raised I think that we would have a Legislature here struqglinq to try to overco111e that parti~a~ . problem. And I hope for an early end to this particular debate and- MR. FLIGHT: You will not get it. MR. HODDER: Whether I get it or not I hope for it. And I think that the longer we 3930

....... May 13, 1980, Tape 1504, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: stay in this House,the more time we spend on this issue, the less time we are spending on the Province's business and, for one, I would like to get into the Budget Speech because I have an awful lot to say. ' So, Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say except that again I will re-emphasize that the design is sound, we are going to be proud of it and it will stand with the other provinces of Canada and it will stand with the other countries of the world. And, Mr. Speaker, I am going to vote for it and I am going to vote for it proudly.

And what- ever consequences come - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER; - whether they be from the Legion - if they want to come out and they want to defeat me, well, that is their prerogative, I will have to fight them when the time comes. But, Mr. Speaker, I intend to support the flag and I will be proud to fly it. I told my wife that I want a flagpole put - we were going to build a fence around our house but I have now said that the fence is going to include a flagpole and that flag if passed will be flying in front of my house which is in the centre of Stepehnville, seen by all, this coming Summe~.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Baird): The hen. the member for St. Mary's ·- The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Like the rest of the members I would like to get my two cents in on this flag issue too. To be honest with you, I stood up here but I still do not know if I am going to support it or not. It is 3931 --.~·=-.- · ~.('' -- ··- -r -:-~·:! "':. _,.-.:.--"-~- ·· ·-~ ~ .. ~----..-- ~--""

'- May 13, 1980, Tape 1504, Page 2 -- apb MR. HANCOCK: starting to grow on me. I am like the member for St. John's South (.Dr.Collins), he said he liked it a first and now he loves it, because I hated the bloody thing when I saw it but now I am beginning to like it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: But I am still not convinced I like it enough to vote for it. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: The one flag I would vote for is if we could get the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) flat enough to take a picture of him and put him on a flag, then I would vote for it. There would be no problem there.

I had to get that dig in. I commend the Committee on the job they have done. They have done an excellent job going around the Province. It is not an easy task to come up with a flag that is going to suit everybody. As a matter of fact, I think it is impossible for any- body to do it. They did an excellent job and they are to be commended for it, but just because they did not come to my district is why a lot of people are upset and they felt that they should have come to St.

Mary's - The Capes and had a meeting,which they did not do, A lot of people out there are upset, they are going against the flag for no other reason than that. To have twenty-six meetings around the Province and not to come to two or three districts I think leaves something to be desired. This flag issue, the thing which disturbs me about this is we are trying to get it through the House of Assembly too quick, Mr. Speaker. There are a lot of people in my district who would like to see this flag in colour.

We have a lot of people out there who, through no neglect of their 3932 ~_,.. ____ .. :- •• -:-... ··--... ----- - --·

'- ·~ _.;.. ;,-:-"'":. May 13, 1980, Tape 1504, Page 3 -- apb MR. HANCOCK: own, cannot afford a colour T.V. and, therefore, they have not seen this flag in colour thev have onlv seen it in black and white. MR. WARREN: That is good enough. MR. HANCOCK: Yes, it may be good enough for some people but it is not good enough for the people in my district, Mr. Speaker. At least we should put this thing off and get on to the serious issues that face this Province.

I would rather stand up here today and support legislation to have inshore fishermen covered by compensation rather than get up and express my disapproval, or approval, for that flag. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: I think it is about time to get on, as the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.Hodder) said, with the serious problems which face this Province. I live right nextdoor, by the way, to the designer of this flag and that is why I with a great deal of reluctance, held off until now to have a few words to say. The only thing that disturbs me in this flag is the arrow.

I guess the Premier likes it because if you turn it up this way and have a look at it, the blue would represent the sky, this ~uld be the oil rig and the drill going down into the sea. That is probably why the Premier likes it and probably rightly so, because we are taken up with oil so bloody much these days, it is ridiculous. MR. NE.li.RY: rig though. MR. HANCOCK: It does look like an oil It does. If you look at it this way it does look like an oil rig.

Having lived nextdoor for eight or ten years to the designer of this flag, I find it very difficult to come out and sort of offend him, I 3933 --_.-.- .. ---..---- ~ -- - - --

......... ... May 13, 1980, Tape 1504, Page 4 -- apb MR. HANCOCK: guess. If I vote against the flag I would be offending him, if not, I guess - MR. WARREN: (inaudible) home? MR. HANCOCK. Yes. A lot of people say, Mr. Speaker, this flag will grow on you. A~ interesting comment was made by a lady the night, I was talking to, she is seventy-three years old and she said, 'Son, I am seventy-three now and I have heard talk that this thing will grow on you, but' she said, 'I do not think I will be around for another seventy-three years'. That was her opinion, what she thought of the flag.

I think a flag should symbolize something of our past, Mr. Speaker. I lost a number of relatives in the war and there should be some resemblance of a Union Jack in there. And if it is there, Mr. Speaker, you have to use your imagination and you have to stretch your imagination to find it. . . I think, just to show some of our appreciation toward the people who fought for us years ago, that there should be some resemblance to the Union Jack in there. I guess the only way we could come up with a flag that would suit everybody would be to - I think the member for St.

John's South (Dr.Collins) said it, every meeting they had around the Province somebody came up with something different. Some wanted a moose, some wanted a caribou, some wanted rabbits, whatever you want in the bloody thing, I guess the only way we could please everyone would be to take a picture of everything, have another ark and stick it on a flag and then f.ly it- . and then everybody would appreciate what the Committee has done. But I guess we cannot do that, Mr.

Speaker, it would not be 3934 -~ .. ~ .. -..::~7-~ -~-· -; -.. '"1'-:-~ .. ---~-- --. ... - - -~ ·----·-'- -- -·-----......... --- ·~ ·---· ·--~-~ --- - --.~---.--· .- ----,-_......., . ......, ...

...... ---.-, ~ .: ""'t'r May 13, 1980 Tape 1505 MB - 1 MR. D. HANCOCK: -' - appropriate. The majority of the people, Sir, I have spoken to in the district, and I am sure I am in a position where I have spoken to more people since this flag was brought in than any other member in the House of Assembly, and I can honestly say that the majority of people in my district are against the flag. They do not like the design of the flag but they still feel that at the same tilne we should have our own identity and we should have our own flag. And I feel that way too, Mr. Speaker.

But with a few alterations to this flag I think it would be accepted _by a lot of people around this Province. I would certainly like to see that arrow taken out and I do not know what you could put in there, Mr. Speaker, but you could get something in there tha~ is more appropriate and represents our heritage or our culture more than an arrow. It represents our future and I think there -should be something in there to represent Newfoundland and its past.

I also feel like the member next to me, that we should have the same flag for Newfoundland and Labrador. r feel -very strongly about this and this is something we should consult with the people of Labrador and Newfoundl.and about to see if we can cQIIIe up with the one flag that is going to represent all because it does create some separatist movement if you have two separate flags. That is about all I have to say en the flaq, Mr. Speaker, with a few alterations - SOME HON. MEMBERS: The poem. MR. D. HANCOCK: Oh, yes. I had a poem. I do not if it would be appropriate to read this or not, Mr. Speaker.

It is something which was presented to me last night at the house. A guy came up and gave it to me and he asked me if I would table it in the House and read it out. A flag, a flag, the Premier said./ Let's pick our;;ives a flag./ Take six wise men John Carter, make haste, no time to drag./ Make haste, make haste John Carter,/ Time is running low./ Four hundred years we had it, The Onion Jack must go./ With six wise men he travelled far./ Six hundred flags he saw,/ Six hundred flags rejected,/ Let's get Chris Pratt to draw./ 3935 -· -- --~ ·· ·- - ··-;""":': ~· -~---"""';-

May 13, 1980 Tapa 1505 MB - 2 MR. D. HANCOCK: That was his opinion of exactly what is happening with the flag, Mr. Speaker. Maybe by the time , Mr. Speaker, MR. S, NEARY: You have to table it. MR. D. HANCOCK: May I ask that this be tabled, Mr. Speaker ' Probably by the time we do come down to a vote on this flag I will be in favour of it, Mr. Speaker. Right now I am not. Thank you. MR. S. NEARY: You are voting against it. MR. D. HANCOCK: I am voting against it. MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) The hon. member for Bay of Islands. MR. L. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, MR. L.

THOMS: If the hon. member would close his coat- his tie is like a flag. MR. L. WOODROW: It is a really lovely flag, is it not? If anybody, Mr. Speaker, would walk into the government coDIIIOn room and see the proposed flag flying,with the gentle breeze from the window, I think they would say it is beautiful. SOME HON • MEMBERS t Hear, hear! MR. L. WOODROW: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have a few remarks to make on it. I have listened to all the various speakers and they all spoke of different types of flags of other countries and different pro- posals they had from their constituents and the like.

But I would say that in order to please everybody in the Province we should have at least 600~000 flags because in the matter of getting a flag you cannot please everybody. In fact I am going to use a Latin quotation which says 1 "Quot capita, tot opiones", in other words there are as many opinions as there are heads when it amuas to choosing a flag. So it certainly is a vezy difficult thing to do. I would, first of all, Mr.

Speaker, congratulate the Premier for having the courage because to make a j_j.t'oposal such as this you have to be youthful, you have to have vim, you have to have vigor, you have to have courage and you have not, in fac~got to be basing your"life on politics 1 you have to be convinced of what you are saying. And that is '- 3936

'- --.::-~~::...--·~·· May 13, 1980 Tap e No. 150 6 GH- 1 MR. WOODROW: the reason why ~hat I think he really had the courage to do this. I knew it would be an emotional debate. Naturally it would be because it is a very important thing for our Province to have our own flag. now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the members of the Committee, four members from the government side and three members from the Opposition side. It was done in a democratic way.

These seven members were given the authority, and may I say the financial help to go across this Province and in Labrador, and the people, to my knowledge, were given due notice . That was the time for them to make their presen tation to the Committee and many of them did. Now, I feel, Mr . Speaker, that this flag is a flag for the future. Before I conclude I am going to read a letter from one of the schools in,my district.

I appreciate the people, who sat in the galleries here on Friday, from the Canadian Legion and, also, the telegrams and the calls that I received from several Legionnaires in the City of Corner Brook and environs. They were proud of the Union Jack. In fact, they fought under the Union Jack. Many of them fought and came back, many others, Mr. Speaker, are still in hospitals and many others never came back, but that is the flag they fought under and they have every reason to be proud of it and it can still be flown in any part of our Province.

Just to inject one little note, I think it was the hon. member from Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) and the hen. member from st. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas), they mentioned the Irish people who came ~o Newfoundland. If I wanted to be bias, Mr. Speaker, I have every reason to be so, becaus~ my mother 1 who recently passed away, she was a grand-niece of the founder of the Christian Brothers of Ireland, who brought so much to Newfoundland by way of 3S37

'- Hay 13, 1980 Tape No. 1506 G !i-2 :~R. WOODROW: education. I was a student at St. Bonaventure's College, and we also celebratec their 25th anniversary in Corner Brook ju~t over tbe weekend. Of course, the Iris h people have certainly given a lot to the Province of Newfoundland. But I think, Mr. Speake!", we cannot be biased, we have to be big in ourselves. Every time they will look at the gold in the flag, what does gold remind us of? It reminds us of a bright future, and are we goinq to loo~ back at the past? why should we look back at the past?

The pas t was hard enough for us here in the Provinc e of Newfoundland and ~abrador . I thi~~ it is ti~e for us to look to the future with the hope that some good things will happen. ! am sure it will . Also. Mr. Speaker, fifty -two members were elected by the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. ae were not deleg ated to co me here.

We were el ect ed to be a member of the district, and every time an issue comes up, surely goodness we should not qo back to our :;>eople an d say , "Shall I do t:.his or shall I do that?" I am sure that they would think very l~ttle of us if we went back to th e~ for every little thing that happened here in the House of Assembly, every issue that came up? On ce again, the decision, Mr. S9ea~~r. was 3938 ·~~- - .-..-. ... ----- •--:- ~~·T ' -•• '"·";· ~~.~ --- -·~ ":"""" "'"~ --- ~., • ---

"- :-~---. -..-----· May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1507 NM- l MR. WOODROW: unanimous by the committee and if we send out a delegate, if we have a commission or something sent out to ask and to do something for us, if we come back and say, "The. heck with your decision," they will not have very much faith in us, I would not think. I have had a few people who have called, but most of them called and said, "Oh," they said, what I would like and what I would not like. ~But," they said -"you know," only a call from Mciver' s today, "the flag is growing on us. " I remember, the han.

Sp.oaker remembers when we opened the Cathedral in Corner Brook, monastic style the Cathedral is, a lot of people said they did not like it. But Bishop O'Reilly who built the Cathedral he said, "It is going to grow on you." And there is not one person today in the city of Corner Brook who is not in love with the Cathedral over there. People, in fact , who come to visit it 1they feel the same way. I think, Mr. Speaker, it ·is a flag for the future. It is a flag in fact.not,maybe,for the older people but it is a flag for the future and the future, Mr. Speaker, belongs to the youth. Now I have a letter here, Mr.

Speaker, I am just going to read part of it, possibly all, it is not very long. It came from the school in Cox's Cove. "Sir, as a member of the younger generation of Newfoundlanders I cannot understand the reason for disagreement with the flag. I can fully appreciate people's love for the Union Jack. I, myself, have a great deal of respect for the Union Jack. However, as a Newfoundlander I have great difficulty identifying it as my flag. Let us not forget that that flag existed before Newfoundland was known to exist. How could it symbolize something they did not know about?

"While it is true that Newfoundlanders fought and died under the union Jack, World War II, I think it should be remembered that Newfoundland was a colony of Britian in the war years, and 3939 -· -.- ---~ --:--

May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1507 NM - 2 MR. WOODROW: therefore, technically they were fighting as British subjects. I Challenge the readers, however, were these British Newfoundlanders fighting for Britian or Newfoundland? It is my belief that Newfoundlanders who fought in World War II fought for freedom for Newfoundlanders regardless of the flag that flew over their heads. They ~ought to get freedom for Newfoundlanders and the freedom to choose a new and true Newfoundland flag. "There was another people here before us. Let us not forget that.

One of their races was wiped out entirely when they tried to keep their land. In what oetter way can we ~how our respect for these disappearing cultures than to commemorate their art as we have done in the flag? "The red, white and blue of the Union Jack is represented on our flag. Are we afraid to put our own gold colour into the flag to represent our many resources;?" And I think here, Mr. Speaker, of our future,the oil, the fisheries, the hydro, and the other good things that will come, we hope, to our Province. "The design is similar to the Union Jack.

The Flag Proposal Committee are merely asking that it be changed to include design representative of our native culture. "It is very interesting to note that many Newfoundlanders are fighting to keep the chief symbol of John Bull and jolly old England who,some thirty-one years ago 1 did everything to get rid of Newfoundland because they did not want us." AN HON. MEMBE~ That is right. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I want once again to pledge my support for this flag. And as the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) said, I too - I will gladly fly it, in fact on my home in Corner Brook, and on my Summer home out in beautiful Bay of Islands AN HON. MEMBER: --- In your condominium. MR. WOODROW: in York Harbour. I have not got the condominium yet. But we shall do it and I once again congratulate the committee and may I say, as the two han. members who spoke last said, "Let us get on with the job of accepting the flag and then get on with the "- other business of the Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3940 ·-.~.-·::~--"":,--... ~"'' ~ ~~--~·.·-~-. ... ':"'" .. ..,. ..

' May 13, 1980 Tape No. 1508 IB-1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): The hen. member for Fogo. SOME HON. MFMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TllLK: Mr. Speaker, let me say that I suppose that this is an historic moment perhaps in Newfoundland history that this House is now going through. And as part of this House it gives me,perhaps 1 a sense of adventure and pleasure to be involved in this debate. Mr. Speaker, I suppose the historic moment, perhaps,is found in the historical impact that this debate and the passing of the act now before us will have. It depends on the point of view that a person holds.

If a person is for this particular design then,obviously, he will be pleased that the act is passed in the House of Assembly. If a person is not for it he will not be as pleased. I would like to,if I could, Mr. Speaker, before passing my few remarks, to congratulate the previous speakers. And perhaps there is - MR. STAGG: MR. TULK: is little left to say. AN liON. MEMBER ': MR. TULK: Thank you. You are welcome. And perhaps there The only exception. Yes,he is perhaps the only exception. Perhaps there is little left to say, Mr.

Speaker, but I feel that in what I just called an historic moment in Newfoundland history, that perhaps one should make ones position clear and that, Sir, I hope to do in the next few moments. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that I can, perhaps, keep in mind what the House Leader for this side keeps reminding us younger members of this House of, and that is that if you have something to say then perhaps you can say it in t'en minutes as well as you can in thirty. My first inclination, Mr.

Speaker, is to perhaps ~ongratulate .fhe committee and I congratulate them, Sir, in this regard in that they were given a task, I suppose, that they knew would not be easy. They perhaps knew that they would receive various criticisms and they have. And I congratulate them for having the courage 3941 :---:,-:-:-:.;--...,!~·--:-·---~. ---- ...... -.--·

'- -~·"-~'~$; ~-..· May 13, 1980 T2.pe No. 1508 IB-2 MR. TULK: to do it. I would also like to say, Mr. Speaker, that we find ourselves in another unique position in that no individual in this House should feel slighted,on either side of the House , if his colleagues on either side of the House opposes him. we a