June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 183 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Tuesday, June 5, 1979 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 204

An Act to Amend The Willmore Wilderness Park Act MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 204,

An Act to Amend The Willmore Wilder­ ness Park Act. Mr. Speaker, the basic principle contained in Bill 204 is that before any changes can be made in Willmore Wilderness Park there be a debate in the Legislative Assembly. [Leave granted; Bill 204 read a first time] Bill 211

An Act Respecting the Right of the Public to Information Concerning the Public Business DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 211,

An Act Respecting the Right of the Public to Information Concerning the Public Business. Mr. Speaker, the principle of this Bill is simply to ensure that decisions which go into development of public policy are made in public and become available to the public, unless adequate reasons are given that specific information should be kept confidential. In light of the fact that the new federal government is committed to this, I'm sure the Tory cousins here will also be committed to this Bill. MR. NOTLEY: You're an optimist, Walt.

Of course one has to be, sitting in the opposition here, [Leave granted; Bill 211 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table with the Legislature Sessional Paper No. 75, required under The Blind Persons Act, and Sessional Paper No. 76, required under The Disabled Persons Act. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure to table the annual report of the Alberta Automobile Insurance Board for the year ended December 31, 1978, as required by

Section 321.7 of The Alberta Insurance Act. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the annual report of the Alberta Hail and Crop Insurance Corporation. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I wish to file copies of two letters, both dated December 7, 1978. The first is from the then federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Re­ sources, Alastair Gillespie, to the then Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, Don Getty. The second is from Mr. Getty to Mr. Gillespie. The two letters constitute the current oil pricing agreement. MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table with the Assembly the annual report of ACCESS, the Alberta Educational Communications Corporation, Sessional Paper No. 26, as required by legislation. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the Students Finance Board for 1977 and 1978, and the 1977-78 annual report of the Depart­ ment of Advanced Education and Manpower. MR. SPEAKER: I am tabling the annual report of Al­ berta Hansard for the year 1978. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. KNAAK: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to introduce 115 students — I understand of outstand­ ing ability — from Greenfield school in Edmonton Whitemud, consisting of four grade 5 classes, each accompanied by their teachers: Mrs. Thelma Hay, Mr. Jim Horen, Mr. Randy Rix, and Miss Belzil — and I apologize for not having her first name. I understand that Miss Belzil's class is a French immersion class, taking the total tour in French. I would ask the guests to rise and receive the welcome of this House, Mr. Speaker. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Alsands Hearings MR. LEITCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thought it appropriate at the opening of question period to cor­ rect an answer I gave yesterday in response to a ques­ tion from the hon. Leader of the Opposition. As I recall, he asked whether there would be public hear­ ings in the Fort McMurray area in connection with the Alsands project, similar to those held in the Cold Lake area. I'd indicated there wouldn't be, Mr. Speaker. The answer is yes. The ERCB will be holding the same type of hearings in the Fort McMurray area — and I believe they open on June 19 — as they held in the Cold Lake area in connection with the Cold Lake project. Pipeline Safety MR.

R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Premier. It deals with the whole ques­ tion not only of safety of pipelines — and I pose the question not only as a result of the Mill Woods situa­ tion that took place during the recent election cam­ paign; not as a result of the campaign, I trust — but also the propane storage situation south of Calgary, and the broad question of pipeline safety in and close to building-up urban areas. Mr. Speaker, having regard for the fact that it has implications for the departments of Environment, *See page 152, right column, paragraph 4 *

184 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 Municipal Affairs, and naturally Energy and Natural Resources, my question to the Premier is: what agency or organization within the government now assumes overall responsibility for this important area? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, that's an important subject, but I believe the answer would be premature. We felt that we should await the report of the hearing into that matter and get the recommendations before we reach a determination as to the organizational aspects we might respond to the question.

We can move in two or three organizational ways, but we would prefer to get those recommendations. When we've received the report from the hearing — I under­ stand there will be recommendations, and I think they will help us and guide us in making a more appro­ priate organizational decision in determining dele­ gated responsibility. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the Premier.

Having regard for the fact that albeit the ERCB is holding the hearing on the Mill Woods question, but there's a problem of urban growth and the effect it has on pipelines — communi­ ties such as Crossfield in my own riding, where the government itself had to be involved in the moving of the pipeline — my question, really a proposition, to the Premier is this: is the government prepared to consider the establishment of a legislative committee with members from both sides of the House, not only to take into consideration the recommendations from the ERCB but also to become involved in some public hearings across the province, with that legislative committee bringing recommendations back to the Assembly next spring?

MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, it's an alternative we could certainly consider. But again, I think we would like to await the report of the ERCB. The scope of their hearing and the way they looked into the matter could give us some suggestions that could be useful as to how we could direct our response to what is clearly, because of the growth in the province and the dynamic nature of the province, a growing problem for us. So I would prefer to defer either responding to the specific alternative the Leader of the Opposition has suggested or in other ways until we have that report from the ERCB. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, to the Premier: what is the anticipated time frame now for the ERCB's report to the government? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I haven't any idea. I could take that matter as notice and get information back to the Assembly and to the hon. leader. Oil Development MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to direct the second question to the Premier. It really flows from the first question asked yesterday in the House, with re­ gard to the Cold Lake and the Alsands projects — the possibility of both going ahead at the same time and the effect on the Alberta economy.

The second question I'd like to raise today deals with the international conference now going on in the city of Edmonton and, one could say, the representation made by some people at that conference that we should move very quickly on the development of future tar sands plants. My initial question to the Premier is: what is the status of an oil sands policy or position paper by the government now, and what is the government's expec­ tation of oil sands plants in the next let's say five years, from the standpoint of the likelihood of projects being able to go ahead? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, that's difficult to re­ spond to. First of all, we have taken the position that we are much better served to deal with this matter on a project-by-project basis, particularly in commercial terms, as they fit the circumstances. The decisions ar­ rived at in the mid-60s for GCOS were obviously in different conditions than those in the early '70s for Syncrude, or perhaps in the '80 and '81 period for Alsands. So we're into different circumstances and dif­ ferent conditions, and would have to look at it on that basis.

Although I attended the opening portion of the conference the hon. leader refers to, I believe Alberta is very far ahead. Although there is a sense of urgency in terms of the time frame of perhaps 25 years or so, I wouldn't quite agree with the submissions made at the particular meeting. So I think our position in terms of the number of projects . . . I think one of the key questions in many people's minds is they want to watch the progress of Syncrude as an operating situa­ tion for a few years, to get some idea of the nature of the variable costs involved before we would see a very rapid increase.

Certainly, from our point of view in Alberta, we will move toward steady development of the oil sands. But unless some special conditions are brought to our at­ tention, I can't see that we would move in any acce­ lerated way. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Premier, following up on that portion of his response when he talked of steady projects.

Is it then the position of the government that it would be desirable to have construction of plants on an ongo­ ing basis — albeit, as the Premier indicated yesterday, there'd be some overlap from one project to another — that the general objective from the standpoint of tim­ ing would be that construction of one or possibly two plants would be going on a continuing basis? Is that the objective of the government? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, again an important matter. I believe that sort of question and its answer are about two years premature.

I believe we really have to see Syncrude in operation for a period of time before we can reach a decision, and certainly find a circumstance where there are sufficient private-sector investors pre­ pared to take the risk in projects that would involve the development of the nature the hon. leader refers to. I believe we're in a very strong position right now in terms of Syncrude being completed essentially on

schedule and on budget. It is having some start-up problems. If it proceeds satisfactorily in the next year, and if the Alsands project proceeds, we'll continue with our position at the forefront of development. It's cer­ tainly a positive factor in terms of diversification for the province. So we see a steady development. We're certainly open to proposals from the federal government, the users,

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 185 the Ontario and Quebec governments, from other areas, or from private sectors to accelerate that. But at the moment we look to steady development, which would be in the better interest of Albertans. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one last question to the Premier. Has there been specific interest by the gov­ ernment of Ontario with regard to the province of Ontario, in partnership with the industry? Is there any proposition now before the Alberta government in which the government of Ontario is involved in substance? MR. LOUGHEED: No, Mr. Speaker, there's not. MR.

NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the hon. Premier. Is the Premier able to advise the Assembly whether any specific projection has been completed by the Alberta government with respect to the pace of constructing tar sands or oil sands plants in order to meet the Canadian objective of self-sufficiency over the next 25 years, which is now the position of the government of Canada? At this point have we done any studies to indicate whether we need six, 10, or 12 plants? To what extent has there been an assessment of the expansion of oil sands as part of an overall policy of self-sufficiency? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, there's been general review of that matter, but we think any proposal of that nature should emanate from the federal government. If they have that policy of accelerating self-sufficiency in oil, we would look forward to having the federal government take some initiatives. MR. PAHL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary to the Premier.

Is it correct that the two proponents most actively thought to be undertaking major oil sands projects in the foreseeable future have indicated to the government of Alberta that they would be re­ quiring discussions with the federal government with respect to taxation and world pricing for their products? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, they certainly have.

It's really a triangle negotiation, if I could put it that way: the private-sector risk investors — and I think they have some pretty clear assurances with regard to world pricing, as we have with Syncrude and GCOS — and of course the tax regime of the federal government, and the commercial terms of the owner of the resource, the people of Alberta. It's a matter of the three parties agreeing on what a fair relationship is under the circumstances of the time. We had discussions of that nature in Winnipeg in early 1975, and they resulted in a revised agreement with regard to Syncrude.

That may be what happens in any future projects. But we should all keep in mind, Mr. Speaker, that the desire and need for the production is not here in Alberta. We have adequate supplies for our own needs here. So if there is a desire for that production, and if it is emanating through the federal government or through provinces consuming it, then surely they should be making the proposals to us. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the hon. Premier.

In light of the discussions that I'm sure must be going on in the energy committee of cabinet, are there any indications at this time that the direction we're going to have to go, after we complete the Alsands plant, will possibly be in situ recovery of oil? MR. LOUGHEED: I'd like to refer that question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure that's the direction we have to go after completion of the Alsands plant, but certainly the government view formed some years ago was that the ultimate solution to oil supplies in Canada would be the development of the deep sands, which would need to be produced by the in situ method. It was for that reason we formed the Alberta Oil Sands Technology and Research Authority. Continuing that proposal, the authority has entered into a number of arrangements with companies from the oil and natural gas industry to test various possible techniques.

They have progressed extremely favorably, in my view, Mr. Speaker, and there are now a number of pilot projects — I think approaching a dozen — in the testing phase. But I would anticipate that it would be some appreciable time before those now being tested would be either proven or discarded, because the nature of the tests in the field, involving production from wells and so on, does take an appreciable amount of time before a firm opinion on the usefulness of the new technologies can be reached. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary on that line.

Is the minister in a position to indicate the recovery efficiency of the two methods? Have studies been done, and have there been any indicators as to the efficiency of the recovery method of the two systems? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, if the member's question is the recovery percentage as between the surface mining technique used in the GCOS and Syncrude plants, and the in situ pilot projects that are now under test, the recovery percentage, as I recall, is very high in the surface mining procedures, because they take virtually all the bitumen and process it through the plant.

I believe recovery is 80-some per cent in those areas. Now I don't know what percentage recovery there might be from the deep sands, and I don't think we'll know that until these various new technologies are tested. I am sure it would not be that high. But I'm not certain how important that is, Mr. Speaker, because once you're dealing with bitumen below a certain level — that is, once the overburden becomes too great to use the surface mining technique — the only alterna­ tive at the moment is one of the in situ methods. MR. LYSONS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a sup­ plementary to the Premier.

Is it not true that the Ontario government sold its shares in Syncrude at a very healthy profit? And would that be part of the balance we would use in dealing with any other oil company or operation of that nature? MR. LOUGHEED: Well, not exactly, Mr. Speaker. We were somewhat disappointed that they made the deci­ sion the hon. member raised with regard to disposing of their 5 per cent equity interest in Syncrude. They sold it at what I'd call a reasonable profit, having regard to the risk factors that were there.

But on the other hand, what I was alluding to in my answers in responding to the other questions is that

186 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 the need for this oil supply is very significantly in the province of Ontario, and the question the Leader of the Opposition was asking me, as I understood it, was whether we had any recent proposals from them. The answer clearly is, we have not. I guess I could add a little footnote and say, surprisingly so. Alsands Hearings (continued) MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. It flows from the supplementary answer the minister led off the question period with today.

Would the minister elaborate somewhat on the hearings which will be commencing shortly in rela­ tion to the Alsands project? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I find a little difficulty in answering that question without knowing precisely what areas the hon. Leader of the Opposition would like me to elaborate on. They will be public hearings, an opportunity for people in that area to bring their concerns, opinions, and recommendations before the Energy Resources Conservation Board. MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, the area I'd appreciate the minister's elaborating on is: the government had the wisdom to broaden the hearings in the Cold Lake-Grand Centre area after a certain amount of prodding in the Legislative Assembly. Is the govern­ ment going to show the same wisdom in broadening the hearings as far as the Alsands project is concerned, or will it be restricted, as the government started out initially at Cold Lake, to simply looking at it from the standpoint of the ERCB's narrow

interpretation of its jurisdiction? MR. LEITCH: Well, Mr. Speaker, without accepting the implications — or more than implications; direct statements — by the hon. Leader of the Opposition about prodding the government, which I'll take issue with at a more appropriate time, I would like to check with the ERCB on the procedure they will be follow­ ing, and will report to the House if it is different from what I believe it is. I believe they will be hearing any representations anyone wishes to make there in connec­ tion with the construction of the plant, environmental matters, and things of that nature.

But I would like to check with the ERCB, Mr. Speaker, and will amplify that answer in a later question period. MR. R. CLARK: Perhaps I might broaden the ques­ tion just one bit further. Would the minister ascertain whether the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs or other senior members of the public service, who broa­ dened the panel at the Cold Lake hearing — will that kind of representation be added to the ERCB panel? MR. LEITCH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll check on that also. Oil Development (continued) MR. COOK: Mr.

Speaker, if I might, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Re­ sources. It relates to the line of questioning. Mr. Minis­ ter, could you comment on whether there are any tech­ nical discussions between officials in Alberta and offi­ cials in Ottawa as we try to meet our goal of national self-sufficiency? I wonder if you might comment spe­ cifically on timing of oil sands plants, gasification of coal, and production of coal, the three main sources of energy that Alberta can provide. MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, that question raises the very important issues of alternative energy sources and matters of that nature. Of course over the years there have been a number of discussions between provincial and federal officials on energy matters, and a number of discussions between elected representatives of gov­ ernment from this province, other provinces, and the federal government, when we have reviewed in a gen­ eral way — I think it's the most accurate description — the energy situation in Canada, the potential shortfalls in energy, the possible alternate sources to hydrocar­ bon fuels. MR. WEISS: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary to the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, for information purposes. I am aware that nine submis­ sions and briefs will be presented to the ERCB at this point, some of which I have been in contact with, and to my knowledge at this point only one negative response will have been presented to the board. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for St. Albert with a supplementary or a ministerial statement? MRS. FYFE: A new question. Is the question period finished? MR. SPEAKER: Is it a supplementary? MRS. FYFE: No, it's not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Member for Spirit River- Fairview followed by the hon. Member for Bow Valley. Electric Utilities MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Utilities and Tele­ phones. It flows from the most recent quarterly state­ ment from Calgary Power that shows a 16 per cent increase in profits over last year, and a rather surpris­ ing 424 per cent increase in profits over 1973.

Has the minister had an opportunity, or is it the intention of the minister, to review the decisions of the Public Utilities Board in light of the rather handsome increases in profits enjoyed by the private utility com­ panies in this province? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, the Public Utilities Board determines the rates that the investor-owned utility companies may charge. The Public Utilities Board does from time to time, and on a regular basis, review rate applications and the results of those rate applications.

Members are aware of recent situations where rebates have been made to consumers. In the case of the growth of the electrical energy situation in Alberta, we could to a certain extent attrib­ ute the increased consumption of electrical energy to the growth in the industry.

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 187 MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the hon. minister. Has the government, in consultation with the Public Utilities Board, given any consideration to reviewing the return on the rate structure — the approximately 15 per cent return on equity that the PUB uses in determining whether or not rate increases are justified in the public interest? MR. SHABEN: Not at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister. The minister has indi­ cated that increase in consumption is the major reason for higher profits.

Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly whether there's been any assess­ ment by the department, separate from the PUB, to try to find ways of moderating the very substantial pro­ jected increase in the consumption of electrical power in this province? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I've had discussions with the Electric Utility Planning Council, officials of Calgary Power, and officials of Alberta Power on this important question of utilization of electrical energy. We project that as a result of the growth within the province there is a continuing growth in electrical energy needs.

There is certainly an ongoing concern about conservation of electrical energy, and this is under constant consideration by the various depart­ ments of government and by electrical utility compa­ nies, which in fact are holding information meetings throughout the province advising citizens of ways in which they can conserve electrical energy. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Utilities and Telephones. This flows from the minister's answers and a statement made last fall by the former minister with respect to rate equalization.

Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly what progress, if any, has been made in meeting the objective stated by the former minister of a form of rate equalization so that some of the severe disparities in rate structures in this province can be eliminated or at least reduced? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, before responding to the question I would take issue with the comment that there are severe disparities. There are areas of difference in electrical utility rates throughout the province. As the hon.

Member for Spirit River-Fairview would have noted, in the Speech from the Throne there was re­ ference to the Rural Electric Council established last year. My intention is to work closely with that council as well as with the Electric Utility Planning Council to determine what steps might be taken to bring rates closer together across the province. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. I would argue that virtually 100 per cent . . . MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. member might argue elsewhere. MR. NOTLEY: . . . would be a severe difference. But, Mr.

Speaker, my question to the minister: will he assure the House that it is the policy of the government of Alberta to overcome regional disparities in rate struc­ tures as applied to electrical power distribution in this province? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I will assure hon. mem­ bers of the Assembly that it's very important to Alber- tans that they receive the best possible price and value for electric energy, and every effort will be made in that direction. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. It seems that I've heard this question a number of times yearly.

Could the minister advise whether he's had an opportunity to review the financial statement, and whether this large increase that's men­ tioned is not because of the increase in share capital? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I thought I indicated earlier that this matter would be under review, as it is in the normal case, by the Public Utilities Board, since it has the responsibility of determining the return to investor-owned utilities. Seed Potato Program MR. MANDEVILLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Could the minister indicate whether his department will be continuing with the seed potato program adminis­ tered by the crop protection and pest control branch? MR. SCHMIDT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will continue the program of providing disease-free seed potatoes for the industry. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister received representation from seed potato growers concerning the discontinuation of the program? I'm referring to their annual convention and the input the seed potato growers had there. MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, to my knowledge we have received one letter of concern, and of course that has been replied to. MR. MANDEVILLE: One final supplementary ques­ tion, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister's department be increasing the amount contributed to seed producers towards the program? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, I believe the program meets the requirements and the requests at the present time. So I would have to think the funding is adequate. Mount Royal College Expansion MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Man­ power.

In light of recent requests for expansion of the Mount Royal College facilities in Calgary, could the hon. minister inform this House what decision, if any, has been made with regard to those plans? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member and other members of the Assembly will have to await the budgetary announcements to be made by the Provin­ cial Treasurer this coming Friday evening. In saying that, I do not want to raise any false expectations on the

188 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 part of Mount Royal College or any other institution in the province as to the disposition of their requests to government with respect to major developments. However, I can say that Mount Royal College has come forward to the Department of Advanced Educa­ tion and Manpower with a very dramatic and exciting proposal for further expansion and development, not only of programming but of the physical plant re­ quired to carry out their programming as Mount Royal continues its growth. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

When looking at expan­ sion plans for Mount Royal College, has the govern­ ment also considered requests for a move in the area of a field house or sports facility in that particular part of the city? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member is aware from having participated with me in a recent visit to Mount Royal College, that matter has been under consideration by the board of governors at that institution. I understand as well that other proposals are being made in and about the city of Calgary for the development of recreational facilities, which will in due course receive the attention of government.

Government Hiring Practices DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my ques­ tion to the hon. Minister responsible for Personnel Administration. In light of the fact that a pool of females is potentially available to work in the public service, could the minister indicate if the department has undertaken any studies to see if the possibility exists of having women share jobs — possibly one available person would be working in the morning and another in the afternoon — and in this way make use of available people? MR. STEVENS: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that is referred to as the au pair arrangement, that two women or two men may share a position. I'm not aware of any studies. I think that's a very interesting subject, and I'll report back. DR. BUCK: A supplementary question to the Minister of Labour. The study commissioned by the Human Rights Commission to report on hiring practices wi­ thin the Alberta government apparently either has not been completed or has been completed and not tabled. Can the minister indicate if that report is available? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid I'll have to take that matter as notice.

Learning Disabilities MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. Recently a family and juvenile court judge in Calgary estimated that a vast majority of delinquents appear­ ing before him suffered from undiagnosed and un­ treated learning disabilities, which frequently cause certain problems. I wonder if the minister could indi­ cate what type of programs or objectives are being established to look at matters such as this within the court system? MR. BOGLE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, not speaking to the court system itself — my colleague the Attorney Gen­ eral may wish to address that matter — in the broader sense, and recognizing the limitations of our question period, let me briefly say that through our local health units we try very to hard to provide the kinds of services to school-age and preschool children to diagnose various disabilities at an early stage so that suitable treatment may be provided. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the Attorney General.

Could he indicate wheth­ er the government has any intention of establishing an educational and psychological assessment body to advise the court in such matters where learning disabi­ lities occur with particular clientele? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, as my colleague has indicated, the subject is one that spreads both from the preschool area through the school system, and in due course into the courts.

So far as my responsibilities in the area are concerned, I would want to take the opportunity of reviewing the remarks of the learned judge the hon. member has referred to, before getting a feel for what the suggestions are and responding to the sort of suggestion the hon. member is making. Public Employees' Safety MR. MACK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the hon. Minister responsible for Personnel Adminis­ tration. It is with regard to an

article reported on June I in the local press indicating an alarming injury experience in the workplace in '77-78. Could the hon. minister advise the Assembly as to the substantive merits of the article? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. member may perhaps recall that the question period is not intended to test the value or veracity of news reports. But perhaps we can assume the question was asked in a direct way. MR. R. CLARK: You have to make the assumption. MR. STEVENS: Mr. Speaker, I share the concern of the hon. Member for Edmonton Belmont.

The situation is that, on behalf of the government, we have a safety program which is jointly carried out by members of the Alberta Union of Public Employees and us, through a government-wide program, individual de­ partments, and our own department. The union nominates its representatives and is automatically in­ formed whenever there is a serious injury or fatality. The union safety officer is involved with our staff in co-ordination of the investigation through our de­ partments. The employees all have recourse to a work­ site committee. I'm very astonished at the statements that I read about as well.

Our program is endeavoring to reduce accidents. We cannot prevent them all. I don't like to bring it up again, for those bereaved and next of kin, but in the case of the 14 fatalities, seven are under investigation by federal authorities, as they involve aircraft accidents. Two involve a water acci­ dent, and as a result of the findings we have re- instituted our water safety program. The remaining five fatalities involve traffic accidents, including one where the employee could not have prevented the acci­

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 189 dent; it involved another collision, with a car then striking the employee. I believe we are doing our very best to work together with our employees in solving and preventing these kinds of accidents from occurring and recurring. MR. MACK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. What protection have we for the injured workers and/or their next of kin in case of a tragedy? MR. STEVENS: Mr. Speaker, we have the normal pro­ tection provided to all our employees through the Canada Pension Plan beneficiary benefits and through the Workers' Compensation Board.

My colleague may wish to add to that on behalf of all employees in Alberta. Through our own co-operation with our em­ ployees, we have the insurance program, where in a tragedy of that kind we provide two and one-half times the salary, to a maximum of $40,000 insurance, to the beneficiary. We have a dismemberment and accidental death program of four times the salary. Under the pension plan we also have benefits to the beneficiary. Preventive Dental Programs MRS. FYFE: I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Social Services and Community Health.

It relates to the announcement in the Speech from the Throne of the preventive dental treatment program for children. I wonder first what the status of the program is; second, if any orthodontic work for children is included in the preventive nature of the program. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, the program announced in the Speech from the Throne will be implemented by the government in conjunction with health units across the province and city health districts in the metropolitan areas. It is intended that there will be two major thrusts.

The first is through a dental prevention program, and that requires the hiring of dental hygienists and dental assistants. The second is an expansion of the fluoridation program. It's my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that approximately 45 per cent of our popula­ tion in the province is currently covered by fluorida­ tion. In addition to those municipalities which have it in their water, tablets are available through the health unit offices for people living in rural areas, whether on farms or small acreages. MR. MUSGREAVE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister.

Can I assume from his remarks that he is going to provide the city of Calgary with substantial funds, so that we can convince the citizens of the merits of fluoridating their water supply? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, fluoridation in municipali­ ties is, as has been established over some period of time, a local decision. If the residents of the city of Calgary wish to have fluoridation, there's certainly the appro­ priate mechanism whereby they may join the majority of the people in the province in doing that. Library Funding MRS. CRIPPS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct my ques­ tion to the Minister responsible for Culture. Has the minister reviewed with the Alberta Library Board and the local associations of the province the suggestion that more funding may be required for Alberta libraries? DR. BUCK: Wait for the budget. MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, hon. members know that the purpose of the Library Board is to advise the minister on matters relating to the libraries in general and that we have had quite a few meetings in the last while.

I have reviewed library funding with the board and must report that several representations were made to me when I was attending the annual meeting in Jasper. They came to me requesting additional funding, but I would like to point out to this Assembly that in the last three years the budget for Alberta libraries has increased from $25,000 to $500,000-plus. DR. BUCK: A supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister in a position to indicate where that places Alberta on the national average, as compared to the other provinces? MR. NOTLEY: From tenth to twelfth. MRS.

LeMESSURlER: Contrary to some views ex­ pressed, Mr. Speaker, the dollar per capita does not rank the highest in national spending on libraries, but I think overall the collections we have on hand and some of our programs rank the top in the country. MR. L. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if she has met with the Marigold regional library and, if so, what developments have taken place. MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, I have met with the proposed Marigold regional library. I would like to commend them on the format they are taking.

At the moment they are going into various municipali­ ties and trying to come up with some funding. I would like to point out that the proposed Marigold area stretches some 15,000 miles and takes in over 86,000 people. MR. L. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell the Assembly if the make-up of the Marigold regional library is any different from the other regional library boards across the province? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, there is a dif­ ference in this proposed Marigold regional library. This one would be composed strictly of representations from various communities rather than school trustees.

Oil Price Agreement MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Re­ sources. It flows from the tabling this afternoon in the Assembly of the agreement between the province of Alberta and the government of Canada. I notice in the exchange of correspondence, on page 1 of the letter to Alberta from the former Minister of Energy for Cana­ da, that it is the intent of the agreement that there would be increases in the price of crude oil on July 1, '79, and January 1, '80. My question to the minister: is it the position of the

190 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 government of Alberta that this is an agreement be­ tween Alberta and the government of Canada and is it the expectation of the Alberta government that the new government would live with this commitment? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I don't know that I can comment on the expectations. But I can say to the members of the Assembly that I have no information which would lead me to think the agreement isn't going to be implemented in accordance with its terms. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move that Motion for a Return No. 102 be ordered to stand and retain its place on the Order Paper. [Motion carried] head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 203. Moved by Mr. Little:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the government to give consideration to augmenting and extending existing programs for the preventive coun­ selling of young people in the community and the rehabilitation and correction of juvenile offenders in order to reduce the incidence of juvenile delinquency in the province. MR. LITTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I speak to this motion this afternoon, I hope my presentation will in no way be interpreted as a reversal of the stand that I usually take on matters pertaining to law enforcement, which has often been interpreted as a hard-nosed atti­ tude.

In fact I'm rather pleased that the former Solicitor General, Roy Farran, isn't here this afternoon. But if he happens to be watching the proceedings, I would like to assure Roy Farran that I haven't suddenly become, as he would say, a woolly-headed idealist. And Roy, if you are watching, I am still in favor of capital punishment, especially for murder.

On the contrary, I would hope this motion would indicate my continuing interest in orderly society, and the belief that in presenting this motion I reflect a growing concern on the part of many citizens of this province, particularly in the large urban areas, that life is not nearly as safe or as simple as it once was. According to a citizens' concern study in the city of Edmonton last January, crime is the major area of concern to the people of this city. Many news reports reflect this concern.

I have one in front of me — the latest report from Stats Canada — that Alberta led the nation in both drug and sexual offences and in violent crime. A need is felt for greater neighborhood supervi­ sion to prevent vandalism and juvenile delinquency. At a very recent meeting in my own constituency, the speaker was a representative from the rape prevention centre. She addressed a very well-attended meeting, advising women of the law-abiding city of Calgary how to protect themselves when they go out at night. Now a few years ago this sort of message only came in the American cities. It has shades of Orwell's 1984.

Mr. Speaker, in presenting this motion I don't suggest that I have the answers. My intent is that this debate will create in the members of this Assembly a greater awareness of the problem. The opening para­ graph from a Stats Canada bulletin: It is widely believed in Canada that the incidence of juveniles in conflict with the law is a matter which merits special attention. When we say "juveniles", what are we talking about? I'll quote from the same bulletin: In this survey, a juvenile was understood to be a "child" as defined by the Juvenile Delinquents Act.

In this Act, a child is any boy or girl apparently or actually under the age of 16 years, or such other age as may be defined by law in any province. In Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Bruns­ wick, Ontario, Saskatchewan, the Yukon and Northwest Territories, the statutory age limit for a juvenile is under 16 years; in Newfoundland and British Columbia, under 17 . . . Quebec and Mani­ toba, 18 . . . and . . . Alberta . . . 16 years for boys and . . . 18 . . . for girls. It is quite difficult, however, to obtain any accurate statistics on phases of criminal activity in this country.

Now this seems to be in contradiction of the newspaper

article I just read on violent crime in Canada. But I think all the people who compile the statistics will agree that it depends to a great extent on the efficiency of the particular law enforcement agency. The former director of the FBI, John Edgar Hoover, remarked on this on a number of occasions, in that the more disre­ putable police organization — that is, the less confi­ dence placed in them by the public — the fewer crimes are reported to them.

In fact, a very poor police organi­ zation will present a very good statistical report in that they have a low crime rate, yet they are not reflecting the true image of the area. So as I say, there is a very, very wide divergence. Once again, in connection with juvenile reporting this same bulletin makes issue of this: In addition to variations among provinces there are variations, of course, among individual police forces in their manner of dealing with juveniles in conflict with the law . . .

Police in Ottawa, for example, were even less likely to lay a charge and more likely to make a referral than was typical for [the rest of] Ontario; police in Calgary showed a much higher rate of recommending a charge and the Edmonton police a much lower rate of charg­ ing, than the average of Alberta. So as you can see, Mr. Speaker, the statistics become almost entirely skewed. One of the statistics thrown at us quite frequently is the recidivism rate; that is, the propensity of a criminal to repeat his crime.

Canada is given the credit of having the highest recidivism rate in the western world; it's frequently quoted at 80 per cent. I would respond to this in the same manner: once again, this can be reflected by the reporting system and the effi­ ciency of the particular police organization. Of course, in the case of juveniles, as reported in the Stats Canada bulletin, police discretion and police diversion also tend to skew the statistics. In connection with possible cures for the problem, I would refer the Assembly to various rehabilitation programs.

When I was in the law enforcement busi­ ness, I had doubts about the effectiveness of rehabilita­

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 191 tion programs as they applied to adults, because I frequently heard the persistent criminals referring to how they con the rehabilitation officers and parole offi­ cers. Recently on a phone-in program, I heard a 60- year-old who had spent most of his life in peniten­ tiaries. He verified this, saying that it was more or less a game. However, none of this was concrete material. But in 1976 I had the privilege of attending a correc­ tions seminar in the Seattle, when an eminent expert in the field, a Dr.

Martinson from the University of New York, stated that from 1947 to 1965 he had studied all types of rehabilitation programs for adults, both in and out of institutions. He found that the recidivism rate was approximately the same for those who had enrolled in programs as for those who had not, indi­ cating almost a total failure of the programs. Eureka, we had found the solution to the problem: let's withdraw all our funds from adult programs and apply them to juvenile programs, because adults were once juveniles, of course. If we stop them as juveniles, we're going to cure the problem.

So I corresponded with the Canadian police college: do you have any information on juvenile rehab. programs in Canada. They came up with a very significant program from Hamilton, Ontario. The facts from this program were that there was an even higher recidivism rate among those who had enrolled in the program as among those who had not — once again, very, very discouraging. I have another document here, the results of a study done by the Ontario Ministry of Correctional Services in 1977.

It is titled The Community Adjustment of Male Training School Recidivists, 1976: — several training school stays did not deter behavioural or criminal acting . . . much more than a single stay — behaviour after any particular stay was similar to the behaviour shown prior to training school — for those boys in the project who had a 'good' outcome (41 boys or 26%), it appears that they managed to stay out of trouble by chance, rather than [because of] the rehabilitation [program] So the conclusions of the study were that: 1) Training school was not satisfying the educational needs of the boys, nor was it, after one stay or several, deterring their criminal tendencies. 2) There can be no doubt that longterm programmes are necessary to overcome the many years of neglect, mismanagement and abuse to which these youths have been subjected.

I was quite interested when the hon. Member for Little Bow referred to learning disabilities this after­ noon during question period. Another study done approximately four years ago among juvenile offend­ ers in Vancouver determined that 80 per cent had learn­ ing problems, not learning disabilities; that is, the inability to concentrate, a very short attention span, and not necessarily a disability that could not be over­ come. This would tie in with the profile of the derelicts who almost fill our Alberta jails today. Almost two- thirds in Alberta adult jails are derelicts.

Almost with­ out fail, these people have low education, no training, and no trades. Obviously this took place when they were juveniles. In researching this problem, I consulted with many experts: program directors, a juvenile court judge, and a psychologist. There was general agreement among them that the Alberta programs were as good, if not better, than any in the country. But we are still not answering the basic problem. In addition, a number of community or volunteer programs in this province are doing an excellent job; for example, the Boys' and Girls' Club of Calgary and Uncles at Large.

The most recent, on which I will comment in more detail in a few moments, is Enviros, a program in the foothills west of Calgary which is certainly experiencing some initial success. Most juvenile delinquents in our city a number of years ago came from the east end or the ghetto area, such places well known to my colleague from Calgary Millican as the old Calgary Apartments, the Beveridge Building, and the Commercial Block. The conditions under which these children live are almost beyond de­ scription.

We get on a sort of merry-go-round: the juveniles come in on minor offences, build up a record, and finally they go into adult court on their 16th birthday. Having built up this background, they're immediately shipped off to Spy Hill jail. As I say, the living conditions in some of these buildings almost defy description. My colleague could probably do a better job than I could. Now, take a boy from that environment, put him into Spy Hill jail — clean sheets, sometimes two boys to a room, bedside table, three good meals a day, clean living conditions — and tell the kid this is punishment.

He doesn't want to leave. In fact, I knew of a case of one adult offender who in one year had 32 trips to Spy Hill jail. They were 10-day sentences, which would have taken almost the year. But you get two days off each 10-day sentence for good behavior. On his final sentence of the year, the 10 days would have taken him through until Christmas Day. The warden called him in and said, "What do you want to do, John?" "God," he said, "I don't want to go out on the street today." "Well," he said, "Okay then, you've lost your good time," and he kept him for another two days.

It actually isn't all that humorous, because that costs the taxpayers of this province a lot of money. I would respectfully suggest we would have been far better to have sentenced this man to one year, two years, or more in an institution, than to give him 32 trips in the year. I mentioned the volunteer programs. There was general agreement among a number of program di­ rectors that volunteer and community programs do a better job than government. I really shouldn't say that in these surroundings.

In discussing with these direc­ tors, there is good evidence to show there is better response to a community organized program. A few moments ago I mentioned the merry-go- round and the costs. I think it would be of some interest to the Legislature to know what type of costs we're talking about. If you look at the report of the Solicitor General for last year, you will find that the average cost per year to put a man in an Alberta jail is $13,500.

When you realize that in most cases his family is being supported on welfare while he is in there and they have constant visits from social workers, I don't think it would be an exaggeration to suggest that that sum would be double that amount. For a man to go into the federal penitentiary, it is $25,000 per year to keep him there, and there are further

192 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 costs to ship him to the penitentiary; that is, the courts, the legal procedures, and so forth. A seminar I at­ tended a number of years ago, before we had inflation, suggested it should be $10,000 to send him to the penitentiary. I would suggest it is much higher today. Getting back to the profile I talked about a few moments ago: the boys who did come from the Cal­ gary Apartments, the Beveridge Building, the Com­ mercial Building, built up this record of petty offences until they were adults, then the jail system, then a total merry-go-round.

I told you of the man with 32 trips. A minor offence, 30 days in jail. Out on the street; five minutes after, shoplifting; back in the jail. On the merry-go-round. We have to interrupt that process somewhere along the line, and I will give you some suggestions in a few moments. One-half to two-thirds of all the inmates of Alberta jails are derelicts, winos, or rubbydubs, as you care to call them. For the most part, these men have had little or no education, no trade or job training. Upon re­ lease, no chance of employment, back on the merry-go- round: shoplift, arrest, short prison term, back on the street.

Kids from the ghettos are almost bound to be caught up in this type of merry-go-round. I think it would be reasonable also at this point to refer to the single-parent family, which has been ac­ cused time and time again of contributing to the problem. I was able to pick up two excellent publica­ tions on the single-parent family: the first one, One in a World of Two is a report by the national council on welfare and one-parent families in Canada — a very depressing and disturbing document; and another excellent

article out of this publication, Social Policy. Although it presents, as I say, a very depressing pic­ ture of the single-parent family, no place is there any evidence that there is a higher rate of juvenile delin­ quency from that particular home. In fact, the profile by our own department indicates that the most persis­ tent juvenile offender has drug and/or alcohol prob­ lems, and comes from a broken home, not necessarily a single-parent family. Another program has received a great deal of publi­ city in recent weeks. For want of a better term, I think most of you will recognize it as Scared Straight.

It's a movie made in the penitentiary at New Jersey. Juvenile offenders are brought in for face-to-face exposure with the old cons. Any of you who have seen it might be rather shocked by the language and the references that are made. In effect, the cons say: it isn't the system that's going to hurt you when you come here, boys; it's the cons themselves. You're going to become the homosexual partners of the older cons, to be abused, to be servants, and so forth. This is supposed to frighten them from further offences. I was a little bit concerned about the program when I first heard about it and saw it.

If two to three hours' exposure to this type of life is so effective, how is it that six months, a year, or several years aren't even more effective? The original reports that came out on the program indicate that recidivism rates have been re­ duced from 83 per cent to 10.5. In fact, we have a report here that it is taking place at the present time in our own jail in Fort Saskatchewan. However, a report I just received today, compiled in the state of New Jersey, indicates that within 90 days, 43 per cent of the boys exposed to the program returned to crime.

As I said a few moments ago, the most promising program I've come across in recent years is this pro­ gram known as Enviros, which is totally funded by the province of Alberta. It's in the foothills west of Cal­ gary, and what is unique about this program is that there are no workers. Now, in most of our institutions in Alberta, the custodial staff exceeds the inmates, sometimes by a considerable number. In this particular institution, the boys themselves are required to do all the work.

There's nothing particularly new about this type of program; the Russians have been doing it for a long, long time and, I understand, with great success. Their institutions are in isolated areas. The inmates are required to provide the fuel, food, and all essential services. It results in a type of peer pressure, in that if you and your partners are chopping up the wood for next winter and one of the boys isn't working very hard, the other inmates are going to see that he works hard to do the job. Although it's too early to make an analysis of the program, all initial reports of this program are exceedingly good.

However, Mr. Speaker, this presentation so far must seem to you to be a recitation of problems of programs, and of many failures. It seems I have criticized more of the programs than I have praised. To put it in short, I believe we're actually killing alligators while we should be draining the swamp. I would recommend to all hon. members the Kirby report on The Juvenile System in Alberta. The conclusion they came to didn't give a great deal more optimism than I have already stated: At this time it is by no means clear to what extent juvenile misbehavior can be prevented or controlled.

Nevertheless, its consequences are so serious that the people of Alberta should willingly spend millions of dollars on the research necessary to seek better methods of prevention and control. Although the juvenile justice system can and does contribute to the prevention and control of ju­ venile delinquency, society must look to other agencies to play a fundamental role in coping with a problem of this magnitude. Earlier I defined the age of the juvenile in Alberta. Mr. Speaker, when the programs are organized and when the courts consider a juvenile in Alberta, they usually mean from 12 to 16 for a boy.

The Kirby report recommends we consider them as juveniles from the age of 10. And I can tell you of a particular instance where this would have been of great value. One of the most vicious murders ever committed in the city of Calgary was by a 16-year-old who had a long history of juvenile crime. When the reports were checked, at the age of 10, when he was in the detention facility, he was diagnosed as a psychopath. It would have been a good turn for this boy if he had been incarcerated for a long period of time; it would have prevented the loss of a life and prevented his being convicted on the capital charge.

I believe there are persons in our society, Mr. Speak­ er, both adult and juvenile, who must be institutiona­ lized for long periods of time and, in certain cases, for life, because surely society has the right to protect itself. I also believe that by the time an offender has reached an adult age, the behavior pattern has been so well established that it is difficult, if not impossible, to change these habits. So we must go back further. The same applies to many in the middle or later teens. Behavior patterns must be identified at the earliest pos­

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 193 sible age. Early identification of these behavior pat­ terns is the key to the solution of the problem, and probably, Mr. Speaker, day care centres, early childhood programs, and even our whole education system could be recruited in this endeavor. However, I am satisfied beyond doubt that if and when we do come up with a solution to the serious problem of juvenile delinquency in our society, the solution will not be treating the problem. It will be early identification and treatment before the problem exists.

The great scourges of this earth such as TB, smallpox, diphtheria, and polio were not beaten by treating the afflicted. They were beaten by devising preventative measures. Mr. Speaker, the only solution I see to our juvenile problem is to devise these early identification and preventative methods at the earliest possible age. MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of concern that I rise to speak to Motion No. 203 before the Assembly today.

The issue appears to be very general, but I want to urge this Assembly to realize exactly how important this issue is and how important it is that we act wisely on the motion before us today. There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that crime is increas­ ing in Canada and in Alberta. There is also no doubt that juveniles are involved in these crimes.

In December 1978, the Solicitor General for Alberta published A Compendium of Criminal Justice Statistics and I quote: When the number of criminal code offences in Alberta is compared with the number of criminal code offences in Canada, it becomes apparent that Alberta is consistently overrepresented in all of the three

summary categories. In other words, the per­ centages of criminal code offences in Canada which take place in Alberta always exceeds the percentage of the Canadian population which re­ sides in Alberta. During recent years, this overre- presentation appears to be especially true for crimes of violence. A document published by Statistics Canada, Crime and Traffic Enforcement Statistics 1976, tells about the involvement of juveniles in crimes in terms of persons actually charged with certain offences.

In 1976, 48.7 per cent of such crimes in Canada were against proper­ ty, and 22.9 per cent of those crimes were committed by juveniles. The number of crimes of violence in other criminal offences is less, Mr. Speaker, and so is juvenile involvement, But there is no doubt that the issue of juvenile crime is a real one. The issue of crime, and juvenile crime in particular, is important, because the people of Alberta believe it to be of great concern.

One study, Citizens' Concerns in Edmonton, prepared by the population research labora­ tory at the University of Alberta, found that crime was a number one concern of the people in Edmonton. It was also the number one area that they agreed should be a priority for city spending. This government cannot and will not be immune to those factors. In short, Mr. Speaker, people in this province recognize the prob­ lem, and we should be prepared to do something about this problem. I strongly support Motion 203, because I expect it will lead to some concrete action. The studies I referred to are important.

But it is important that we do something with the information, that we research and actually try alternate ways of dealing with this situation. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I speak to this issue not just as the MLA for Edmonton Centre, but as the Minister responsible for Culture. I am con­ cerned about reports that juveniles see crime as a way of life, as a desirable basis for moving along in our society today. If a criminal way of life becomes a culture, it is much harder to deal with. It is not the kind of business I want as culture, and I'm certain that I speak on behalf of the Assembly. MR.

ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have spent 23 years work­ ing with the teen-agers of this province, most of it in rural Alberta, and I've found the vast majority of those teen-agers to be honest, open, responsive people. If you're prepared to work with them as opposed to against them, it can be a really pleasurable and reward­ ing experience. They are full of boundless energy, a characteristic I'm sure all of us here wish we had never lost. However, it is when this surplus of energy be­ comes misguided that we start having our problems with juvenile delinquency.

I would argue that programs to curb juvenile de­ linquency should be preventive as opposed to correc­ tive. I would further argue that the programs are already here but that in certain areas we must beef them up, and where particular groups are not prepared to accept the responsibility, we must be prepared to step in with more muscle than we're presently doing. What types of programs does a teen-ager need? I submit that he or she needs moral, spiritual, education­ al, and recreational programs, and programs that will develop a respect for the work ethic.

I think the next question we must look at is: who is responsible for the delivery of those programs? I would submit that the home holds the responsibility for the moral and spiritual upbringing of the child. This, depending on the choice of the parent, is normally done in conjunction with the church. When the home fails in the delivery of this responsibility, we as a government should be prepared to make the harsh decision of removing the child from the home and creating an alternative environment.

The educational program is the responsibility of the school, and I tend to feel that the school should be educating in a broad as opposed to a narrow sense. In my opinion the school is responsible for more than the academic training of the child. It has responsibilities to reinforce the moral training the child receives at home, to concern itself with the child's ability to get along with his or her peers, and to provide programs to allow the child to develop his potential in athletic, cultural, and artistic activities. Our school system is not doing a good job.

The reasons for this are many and varied, and the responsi­ bility must be shouldered by different agencies of our society. I will place before you the following possible reasons for what I feel is a deterioration in our educa­ tional system. Number one, we are accepting the child from the home too young. That was a decision made by both local and provincial authorities. Number two, we are exposing children to a curriculum that is too academically orientated to suit many of their needs. We seem to be able to knock that bright, eager light out of the child's eyes early in his school career.

Too often the desire to learn is replaced by the frustrations of failure. His or her inability to achieve success leads to frustration, which eventually may lead to juvenile

194 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 delinquency. In my opinion, the junior high school program has become a real choke-hole on the educational system. Due to the high academic orientation of the core program, many children do not reach the more diversi­ fied programs offered in the high schools. We have tended to downplay or discourage the human aspect of education in many ways. Our univer­ sities are concerned with turning out teachers who are subject specialists, not teachers who are prepared to teach children. Do not get me wrong here. In spite of the system, some teachers do learn to be very good child teachers.

However, I suggest others cop out by delivering the subject they are capable of and not concerning themselves with the child as an individual. I would like to share with the House at this point a white paper of X school's athletic association, which I think shows the types of frustrations building between the two types of teachers I refer to. This paper is written in the first person. It was written by one of the members, but it has been presented to the body, ap­ proved, and is going forward to some school boards in this province.

This paper is not to be construed as a position paper of the [X] School Athletic Association . . . but rather a . . . paper . . . so desired by the participants concerned. As I mentioned, it was approved at a recent meeting. The views of the writer are his own [but] are intended to serve as a starting point to improve the coaches' working environment specifically within the jurisdiction of the [X] School Division.

The attitude expressed by the writer is gleaned from his experience in only one school and limita­ tions in scope and depth are recognized but the writer has had extensive discussions with personnel of other schools and jurisdictions involved with the co-curricular activities in order to minimize the ef­ fect of a one school experience.

Perhaps the most disturbing feature of the his­ torical relationship between co-curricular activities and the teachers who volunteer to do the guid­ ance, supervision and coaching is that it has become expected and is now taken for granted (through custom) that, in fact there will be co- curricular activities and that these activities will be taken care of by teachers — in addition to a full work load. This expectation has now so well en­ trenched itself that the teacher(

s) who volunteers their services seem to enjoy less appreciation and respect from the majority of students, parents, and, indeed, some colleagues. In some cases there is even the attitude that the teachers have selfish motives and are coaching for their own benefit and enjoyment. Another very disturbing feature worth noting at this time is the fact that few, if any, teachers (who are or were involved in co-curricular activi­ ties) are asked to become involved with planning the recreation needs and directions of the towns in which they work or live.

This, to the writer, is further testimony that the feeling of the public, administrators, and students is simply that teachers will continue to supply their volunteer time as a "public duty." The same teacher is also expected to participate in other organizations such as Minor Hockey, Minor Baseball, executive positions on other organizations because "you know how to write." The requirement by School Boards that a teacher or teachers MUST be in charge of any activities sponsored for or by the students removes the notion that the teacher has a choice in "volunteering" services.

One should also note that the majority of teachers are not involved in co- curricular activities but are accorded the same priv­ ileges as those who are. Requests for leave, necessitated by community involvement are invariably greeted by the Board with the all too common phrase ". . . the Board recognizes and appreciates your contribution to the co-curricular program in the school . . . but cannot grant leave with pay as it would set a precedent with far reaching consequences." This, is what we as co-curricular coaches have done.

We have set a precedent that we will "take care" of co-curricular activities with little or no support. Another point to consider is the treatment of neighboring jurisdictions and their physical edu­ cation personnel. The writer knows of one instance MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I apologize for inter­ rupting the hon. member, but there are two difficulties with regard to the lengthy reading the hon. member is doing. One of course is that speeches in the Assem­ bly should not be read.

The other is that hon. members are elected themselves to debate in this Assembly; by the reading of lengthy quotations, the Assembly is re­ quired to hear the arguments of people who are not elected members, and not elected to debate in this Assembly. MR. ISLEY: Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I'm just learning the rules. Thank you. The main point I was trying to make in the read­ ing, hon. members, is the frustration level certain people in our system are feeling. At that point, if I can establish it, I'll return to my own speech. We have further allowed many of our schools to grow too large in terms of simple numbers.

We must remember that we are not running factories in our secondary school systems, but rather educating indi­ viduals, and that when the numbers get to the point that interpersonal relationships between teacher and students cannot occur, we're asking for trouble. As a government we can do a number of things to counter this problem. Number one, we can control the size of our schools. Number two, we can relax the rules on teacher dismissal so that school boards can more easily remove those individuals who are not perform­ ing a satisfactory service.

Thirdly, through increased funding, we can encourage the schools to take on more responsibility for developing programs in the fields of athletics, cultural activities, and artistic activities. The recreational needs of the teenager are partially supplied by the school, and the balance is supplied by the community. Additional assistance from our gov­ ernment to communities in the operation of recreation­ al programs may be a very, very wise investment. Programs to develop an appreciation of the work ethic are already under way.

We have work-experience programs in our high schools, which I suggest may have to be made more flexible and broadened so more students may take advantage of them. In addition we normally sponsor the hire-a-student program. Let us

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 195 not forget that the family unit and free enterprise also help in providing an appreciation of the work ethic. I cannot think of any corrective programs for ju­ venile delinquency in rural Alberta, unless of course you call a very weak juvenile court system a corrective program, or unless you call a probation officer who visits a juvenile offender once every two weeks a correc­ tive program. I can cite the case of a youngster less than 15 years of age who has already been in juvenile court in excess of 30 times.

He developed such a lack of respect for any form of discipline, probably as a result of the general treatment he was receiving in the courts, that when his junior high school teacher disciplined him, he decided to get revenge. As a result he returned to school in the early hours of the morning, gathered up some piles of papers, scattered some duplicating fluid, and set them afire, burning down a substantial portion of the school. To the best of my knowledge that child is still with his parents. I suggest the threat of the juvenile court system is too weak to deter a teen-ager already on the road to delinquency.

Further, how can we possibly hope to change the behavior of a teen-ager by a fatherly or motherly judge tapping him or her on the wrist and saying, bad boy, or bad girl, followed by a probation officer who may see them once every two weeks, espe­ cially when we return the teen-ager to the home which has already been the main contributor to his problem. Do we have the courage to tell the parents when they have failed? Speculate with me for a moment, please.

If, after a teen-ager or child has been brought to juvenile court, it is determined that the parent can no longer handle him or her or that the home situation was a contribut­ ing factor in causing the child to come before the juvenile court, we remove that child from the home and place him or her in a well-run dormitory, I think we might greatly reduce the tendency to juvenile delin­ quency. I suggest a dormitory as opposed to a private home, because from my own experiences too many people accepting delinquent teen-agers in their pri­ vate homes are doing it for monetary as opposed to humanistic reasons.

By a well-run dormitory I mean one that would not exceed 50 in number of juveniles. It would be located near a solid school program, prefera­ bly in a rural area; it would develop its own recreation program and work program. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that, number one, if we remove the child from the home and place him in a substitute environment, when the parents have demon­ strated their inability to carry out their responsibility; number two, if we put the child back in the school system, and beef up the athletic, cultural, and artistic programs of that system; and thirdly, if we assist the community in delivery of its recreation program for teen-agers, we'll have far fewer teen-agers going down the road to delinquency and hence to crime. In the long term, especially considering Mr.

Little's fi­ gures, I think it would probably cost us far less to develop the majority of our teen-agers as productive citizens, as opposed to maintaining the policing and penal institutions of our society. Thank you. MR. PAYNE: Mr. Speaker, I am not certain that being the father of seven children qualifies me to participate in this debate. But some hon. members present may be acquainted with my children's creative energies, and they might feel that delinquency is a problem that merits my immediate concern. In a more serious vein, Mr.

Speaker, I regard the subject of this motion as of critical importance, and I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate and indicate my unqualified support for the motion advanced by the hon. Member for Calgary McCall. The motion has as its stated objective the reduction of the incidence of juvenile delinquency in Alberta. It contains two elements, both of which are geared to that objective: first, the extension of preventive counsel­ ling for young people; and second, the rehabilitation and correction of juvenile offenders. As I've reflected this past week on the implications of the motion, Mr.

Speaker, I've asked myself: what is juvenile delinquency, how is it measured, just how extensive is it in Alberta, is it growing, and who are the delinquents in Alberta? I suspect others in this House have asked the same fundamental questions. The answers to these fundamental questions, I'm find­ ing, are difficult to formulate. I'm advised that there are about 400,000 juveniles in Alberta, that our police forces come in contact with less than 10 per cent of them, that less than 3 per cent are required to face charges in juvenile court, and that their crimes are usually related to destructive behavior and theft.

The report of the board of review into the juvenile justice system in Alberta, chaired by Mr. Justice Kirby, has been referred to earlier in this debate. I was intri­ gued with the report's observation that the conse­ quences of delinquency in Alberta are so serious that the people of Alberta should will­ ingly spend millions of dollars on . . . research necessary to seek better methods of prevention and control. To prevent and control delinquency, Mr. Speaker, we obviously need to know the dimensions of the problem.

Regrettably, I'm finding that juvenile statistics in Alberta give only a very small part of the picture. Juvenile court and arrest statistics and other official reports tell us very little about the large number of unsolved offences, or about the many cases in which delinquents are dealt with on an informal basis instead of being arrested or referred to a court. It appears to me, Mr. Speaker, that there is a need for more and better information on the subject of delinquency in Alberta.

Nevertheless, it's obvious that the evidence is mount­ ing that juvenile delinquency is very much an Alberta problem and, I regret, one that is growing. The juvenile population has been rising, and an increas­ ing proportion of our society is living in the cities, where delinquency rates have always been the highest. The trends suggest that programs for the prevention and control of delinquency deserve the full attention of members of this Assembly. If I could make a comment or two, Mr. Speaker, on the initial part of the motion; that is, that part that deals with the subject of preventive counselling.

My preliminary research into that subject suggests that the preventive phase of the problem does not appear to be getting the attention in Alberta that other phases are, such as the juvenile justice system. In making that observation, I must acknowledge, of course, that throughout the province there are some very commendable programs of preventive counsel­ ling. I'd like to mention, if I may, the excellent work

196 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 done over the past year by the Calgary Attendance Centre, a privately operated program funded by child welfare branch of the Department of Social Services and Community Health. I find most laudatory the pro­ gram's focus, which is on getting the child to see that he is responsible for his own actions and that there are other alternatives. Mr. Speaker, I'm always supportive of programs — especially government programs — that incorporate the time-honored principle of personal responsibility.

The Calgary Attendance Centre's pro­ gram of counselling services and structured supervi­ sion is designed as an alternative to incarceration for teen-agers who have had one or more charges under the Juvenile Delinquents Act, but who aren't consid­ ered a danger to themselves or to the community. It's a new program, with but three counsellors, but I'm ad­ vised that the results are very encouraging. Regretta­ bly, Mr. Speaker, preventive counselling programs like these are few and far between in Alberta.

I'm not clear on whether the inadequacy of preventive counsel­ ling is attributable to differing priorities, a shortage of counselling staff, or an inadequately decentralized system. Whatever the causes, though, I would urge that particular emphasis be given to this part of the motion. On the question of decentralization of departmental functions and authorities, I understand that decentrali­ zation is now happening and is a welcome trend in Alberta.

One example of this welcome trend: when a child is uncontrollable or is suffering from neglect at home, the court makes him a temporary ward, and he then comes under the guardianship of the director of child welfare, as I understand it. In Calgary, the deci­ sion as to which institution the child is subsequently placed in is now being made by a committee of Calgarians, on behalf of the guardian. Mr. Speaker, I regard that as a positive trend, and I hope it will continue. The hon. Member for Calgary Currie has introduced a private member's Bill on the subject of a family institute.

As I've reflected on that Bill, and look forward to its debate, I have given some thought to the correla­ tion, if any, between juvenile delinquency in Alberta and the family in Alberta. I recognize, sir, that much research has been done by sociologists, psychologists, and psychiatrists concerning the relationship between the family and the delinquent, and that many theories have been advanced to explain that relationship. On the sociological side, I am advised that studies of this relationship deal with the structure of the family; that is, is it broken or not, and how large is it?

On the other side, psychiatric types of studies have dealt with the internal mechanisms of family relationships as they have been uncovered in clinical treatment. Some researchers attribute much significance to bro­ ken homes as a cause of juvenile delinquency, and I believe reference was made to that point earlier today. Others have given it less emphasis. But one aspect of family structure which has received a great deal of attention is mother separation, the absence of the mother for a long period of time when the child is young.

In all candor, I have to mention to hon. members that academics are divided on this. But they are agreed that the mother/father relationship in the home is a paramount factor, and that probably an even more important factor in the cause of delinquency than parental marital relations, is the quality of parent/child relations; that is, what kinds of dads and moms we have in our Alberta families. Consistency, fairness, and stric­ tness of parental discipline are among the most impor­ tant family variables related to delinquent behavior.

A second aspect of parent/child relations that is re­ lated to the cause of juvenile delinquency is the lack of parental affection. I'm reminded, sir, of the bumper sticker I see everywhere, and I smile when I see it: Have you hugged your kid today? From some of this re­ search data I've seen, I am led to the conclusion that if more of us hugged our kids, we just might have less of a problem of juvenile delinquency in Alberta. On the subject of preventive counselling, Mr. Speak­ er, I'd like to suggest further that this concept shouldn't be limited just to juveniles.

In many cases of potential or increasing delinquency, part of the prob­ lem lies with the parents in the home. Consideration should be given, I believe, to additional casework counselling support for those parents who feel they are ineffective and need professional guidance. I believe further, Mr. Speaker, that a pilot project of this nature was instituted several years ago in Calgary and en­ joyed some success, but was terminated for lack of funding. The concept of preventive counselling for parents, I submit, merits re-examination and hopefully reinstitution in a government-supported program. Now, Mr.

Speaker, may I make a comment on the correlation between delinquency and learning disabili­ ty. I recognize that in debate earlier today, clarification was made between learning disability and learning problems. But I would like to make a comment or two on the correlation, as I see it, between juvenile delin­ quency and learning disability. Earlier this year, Mr. Speaker, a Calgary juvenile court judge made the interesting observation that children with learning disabilities accounted for 50 to 80 per cent of the delinquents appearing before him.

I recognize that that may be at variance with the statistic relating to a Vancouver study, advanced by the hon. Member for Calgary McCall, and I'm not prepared or knowledgeable enough today to clarify that variance. But I do accept at face value that there is a correlation, although I'm not entirely persuaded as to its quantification. He also observed that a lack in Alberta of training, experience, and facilities for the testing and diagnosis of learning disability hampers judges in planning treatment programs for such youngsters.

As hon. members are aware, children with learning disabilities generally are those of average or even above average intelligence who need special education as they are unable to profit from traditional educational methods. If indeed there is a significant correlation between learning disabilities and delinquency, sir, then I would hope that adoption and implementation of this motion would include provision for intensive research in the area of treatment programs designed for such young people. Finally, Mr. Speaker, it's now been 18 months since Mr.

Justice Kirby and his board submitted their report on The Juvenile Justice System in Alberta. The gov­ ernment has not yet acted comprehensively to imple­ ment the recommendations of the board of review's report relative to Alberta's juvenile court system. I recognize, Mr. Speaker, that the juvenile court system as well as other aspects of juvenile delinquency in Alberta merit exhaustive study and consideration. I wouldn't want my comments to be interpreted as criti­ cal, but rather as a recommendation that undue delays

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 197 in that process be avoided at all costs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to indicate that the hon. Member for Calgary McCall has certainly raised the problem and the concern, and I think we all agree that that certainly is the problem. The discussion we're having here this afternoon is the solution to those respective problems he has raised.

I think we can all agree that the concept of preventive programs is a good concept and certainly, if imple­ mented, could result in a lot of good results for young people as well as Alberta society in general. I would like to focus my remarks on two specific areas, without going into the details of the problem. First of all, I think the government of Alberta should concentrate on the co-ordination of its own program­ ming.

I think there is a lack of co-ordination at the present time between the programs of the Department of Social Services and Community Health, the Depart­ ment of Education, the Department of the Attorney General, and possibly others. But I'd say those three specific departments lack some of the co-ordination necessary to meet the problems before us with regard to juvenile delinquency. I'd like to cite two specific examples.

At the present time, a young person who for some reason or other is unable to stay in the school system is asked to leave the school system and go out on the street, get a job; they're on their own. At the present time there really isn't any type of co-ordination between the Department of Social Services and Community Health, or Manpower, to place them in the community or assist them in being placed in the community at large. Often those young people who are asked to leave the school system are ones who are involved in juvenile delinquency.

They lack training when they walk out on the street, they lack the ability to seek job opportunity. Most likely they were in difficulty in the school system. But we really haven't an assist step between their being asked to leave the school and the general community where they are to take on some responsibility. Now we could take the extreme right type of philo­ sophic position and say, well, tough break. They're on their own. If they make it, good. If they don't, that's the way it is. But if we examine many of these young people who are asked to enter the job market, they face difficulties and problems result.

If we had a program where the school counsellor, the school administration, could refer them to a community type of counsellor, or someone who could help them to make that adjust­ ment, I'm sure we would solve a lot of problems. But at present the co-ordination between the two departments does not exist. It doesn't exist until some type of problem occurs in the community, where the Department of Social Serv­ ices and Community Health may have to pick them up and take them into a shelter somewhere. At that point in time they try rehabilitation and try to help the young person adjust to the community.

But the prob­ lem is even greater. The other example I want to cite is with regard to the comments of the Calgary judge who estimated that 50 to 80 per cent of delinquents appearing before him suffered undiagnosed and untreated learning dis­ abilities. Certainly I appreciate the appropriate remarks made by the hon. Member for Calgary Fish Creek. I think he has diagnosed those statements very well and put them in the right perspective. But I can only say that when we have that type of situation occurring, programs that are already in place by the departments of this government are not co-ordinated.

It is lack of co-operation and understand­ ing between one department and the other. I think we are spending the money, but we're not getting the full results that are necessary to meet the needs of these young juveniles who are entering the community or have had some problems facing the community. That was one point I wish to make in this debate. The second is with regard to the Kirby Board of Review report with regard to provincial courts, specifi­ cally to the juvenile court system.

There are 30 recom­ mendations that still stand untouched in this report, 30 recommendations that have just not been moved on by this government. Some very specific types of recom­ mendations in here indicate something should be done and that the problems have been researched very well. The people who have worked on this are very learned people who took a long time to put the report togeth­ er. I ask myself how much more research or time must be taken before we implement some good recommen­ dations. I would suggest to government that we should take the recommendations as they are establish­ ed and implement them.

If there are some areas that become gray or that we are not sure of, then we can do some further research. But we should take some initial steps immediately and assist the courts to deal with the juvenile problems before them. I can only cite a few quotes that I think are signifi­ cant from the report.

They say this, at the present time, Since, in any one year, the Courts never see 97 to 98 per cent of the juvenile population, it must become clear that the police and the Courts can react to delinquency, but they can neither adequately pre­ vent nor control it under the present circumstances as they prevail in the community. Recommendations with regard to case loads indicate that probation officers should be kept within the limits of their capacity to cope with them efficiently; manda­ tory in-service training should take place at the present time.

There's a recommendation that society in general should be willing to place funds in the area of rehabil­ itation, and in the area of work with juvenile delin­ quents. There are other recommendations with regard to the way programs can be implemented in the prov­ ince of Alberta. There's a fairly good assessment of the kinds of problems with regard to juveniles being faced in Alberta at the present time. There's an indication that most of the misbehavior is focused on the areas of theft, attempted theft, vandalism, and running away. So these are problems we have diagnosed, and the hon.

Member for Calgary McCall did that very ade­ quately. We know what that problem is, and we should be able to move in with programs on a more co­ ordinated basis and do just that. I think one of the blueprints we can follow is this Kirby Board of Review report. Up to the present, the government has been negligent in doing that. I think if we can accomplish one thing in this discussion in this Legislature on this resolution, [it] is that the government commit itself to move ahead and recognize the worthiness and the good work done in that report.

If not, the inability of the court to react to the problems will only continue, and the problem certainly will get worse. We as

198 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 general citizens will suffer the consequences. Certainly the lives of young people are not being held as they should in the province of Alberta. MR. McCRAE: Mr. Speaker, in participating in this debate today I want to say how entirely appropriate it is, in this International Year of the Child, that we have a discussion dealing with juvenile delinquency.

One of the great contradictions of our time, one of the dicho­ tomies, is that with all the opportunity, particularly here in Canada, and I suppose especially in Alberta, juvenile delinquency is still one of our more serious problems. In beginning my remarks, I'd like to pay tribute to the Member for Calgary McCall for bringing forth this motion. I think its topicality is demonstrated by the high level of participation in the debate.

It is very appropriate that a man of the experience of the hon. member — 38 years, I believe, with the Calgary police force, and a tremendous interest in this area — sponsor a discussion on this particular question. I was sur­ prised, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member felt it neces­ sary to assure us that he was not a woolly-headed idealist. Certainly the woolly-headed

part is no prob­ lem. Whether or not he is an idealist, perhaps he is a little too modest. I suspect he probably is. Mr. Speaker, I'm sure we all agree that every effort be put forward to try to eliminate or reduce juvenile delinquency. We hear about the high concentration of young people in our jails. I think the jail population is essentially made up of people under 25. We hear of the high rate of recidivism — I believe that is the way you pronounce it, and I would again like to congratu­ late the member for giving me an

interpretation of how one pronounces that word. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that you and I share some responsibilities over this building — I believe the library is yours, and I would assure you that the word "recidivism" is not in this book. I think it needs replacement, if I might make a submission for an upgrading of that service. In any event, back to the motion under discussion, No. 203. We had a similar debate here a couple of years back. I remember waiting many, many hours to get into the discussion. The former hon.

Solicitor General contributed at great length and in good substance, good remarks, to that discussion. He was followed by the former hon. Member for Drumheller. I think the two of them took up 59 minutes of the one hour allotted. I remember getting to my feet with a consid­ erable amount of prepared remarks, all set to give a great speech. I got the first 10 words out, was re­ minded that debating time was over, and that was the end of it for that session. So here I am today. I don't have the remarks I prepared formerly. Perhaps what I say today won't be quite vintage, but certainly it should be topical.

As I said, Mr. Speaker, I think we all agree on the desirability of the motion. I'd like to recount some private experiences which have determined how I feel about this particular topic. I have a correction on the spelling of that word, Mr. Speaker, so perhaps your book is okay. [laughter] My personal experiences relate to the southern Alber­ ta area. I want to relate what is going on down at the Stampede Ranch south of Millarville, south of Turner Valley. That is the old Stampede Ranch owned at one time, I think, by Al Weadick, the man who created or instigated the Calgary Stampede.

Right now it is operated by Ralph Eddy, who has 16 or 20 juveniles down there. I suspect they are hard-core delinquents. He has a program financed by Social Services and Community Health. I saw the hon. former minister Miss Hunley in the gallery a moment back and would like to congratulate her for approving and assisting that program in getting going, and the present minister for continuing the support provided for Mr. Eddy. In short, the program takes these hard-core de­ linquents down there . . . Mr. Speaker, I don't want any further corrections on spellings or pronunciations. [laughter] In any event, Mr.

Speaker, they have these dozen or 20 youths who are hard-core delinquents from the southern Alberta area. They are given schooling right on the ranch. In addition they are provided with chal­ lenge. I think in most cases that is what these young­ sters need: some challenge to give them a sense of self-worth and a spirit of participation, something they can do and achieve. We've heard about the correlation between the drop-out, the learning disability situation, and the high rate of delinquency. That may well be.

But I'm not sure it is so much a learning disability, a physical thing, as the being interested in something, something that gets to you and will challenge, stimu­ late, and make you want to put out and participate. That's what they do at the Stampede Ranch. They have the boys rounding up cattle, riding herd on them, branding, cooking their own meals, and splitting wood. In conjunction with all that, they have a school program. I want to comment on the remark of the Member for Bonnyville that the location of these types of camps should be in a rural setting, if anywhere.

I want to point out that, as desirable as that is, it is not without problems. When they attempted to locate the Stampede Ranch as a youth centre, there was quite a protest from the local school when these youngsters appeared on the scene. There was considerable concern, and I sup­ pose justifiable, as to whether these youngsters would be a problem for the community. The short of it was that the operator of the ranch, whose son is a school teacher, established a school right on the ranch. So the boys are not only able to go to school there, they do their creative, their challenge work on the ranch.

It has been a remarkable success. I understand there have been very few runaways from the system and, although it has not been going that long, the feeling generally is that it is a successful thing. That is one situation. The second one I want to comment on, Mr. Speaker, involves the Enviros pro­ gram the hon. Member for Calgary McCall talked about northwest of Calgary, northwest of Cochrane. Again, a rural setting: it is in the wilderness on a small lake. I've had the opportunity to visit both cen­ tres. The Enviros project was sponsored by the Boys' Club of Calgary.

It had some very eminent people participating in it. In fact, Roy Wilson, a member of this Assembly at one time, is one of their directors. Judge Brian Stevenson was one of their directors; I think he is no longer with them. The Chief of Police, Mr. Brian Sawyer, was also a founding member; I don't know whether he's a director anymore. A number of other Calgary area residents are members of the Boys' Club Enviros project. Again, they have taken difficult, delinquent boys out to the area, established on location a school system and

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 199 a work system. I understand again it is very successful. I attended the graduation exercises two years back, and the interesting thing was that not only were the boys who were graduating proud of their achievement, but their parents were there. I talked with a number of parents, who you might have thought were disin­ terested, couldn't control their children. Each of these children had one or more parents there.

The parents I saw were tremendously excited and involved, and for the first time thought they were seeing some light in their sons' progress, both in school and in personal development. The third area of personal experience I want to comment on, Mr. Speaker, relates to a canoe trip I took under the auspices of Uncles at Large some four years back. A number of Calgary residents, some of whom I have just mentioned, took a week-long trip in northern British Columbia with the Uncles at Large and the Boys' Club.

The idea was that you would take one of your own sons and one of the disadvantaged or delin­ quent children. A group of us, some eight canoes in all, went off into the wilderness, camped out, and had a great time. The interesting thing was the contrast, I thought, between our own children and these children from the Boys' Club or residential group dwellings. These children were between, I would think, 12 and 14, some perhaps as old as 15. I remember a couple of occasions the first day out. We paddled a couple of hours up a lake, came to a small island, and stopped for lunch.

We were sitting around, building a small campfire to cook some hot dogs or whatever. We looked out and all the kids from the boys' camp were out in the lake. It looked like the whole area was on fire. There was a cloud, a great volume of smoke going up: all these youngsters were out there smoking. Our own children, being 12 to 14, were not smokers, at least to our knowledge, and we were all kind of surprised to see that. In any event, they weren't a bad bunch of kids. Their habits were somewhat different from those of our chil­ dren.

As we progressed on the trip, about the third day out, we reached a portage where we had a difficult climb of perhaps 100 yards up a circuitous, narrow route, and then about a half mile overland. Remember, we had canoes, packsacks, overnight equipment, sleeping-out equipment, and all the food that goes with a week-long camp-out. Each parent and two chil­ dren had to traverse this portage. The interesting thing was that the children of the parents involved, by and large, looked on it as a challenge, something exciting, something worth while.

The other young­ sters looked at it as, gosh, why should we do all that work? What is the point of getting from point A to point B? We were kind of disappointed in this. Well, one way or another we persuaded them they should do it anyway. By the time we accomplished the portage, I think all the boys were tremendously excited, tremen­ dously pleased with the progress they had made, with the fact that they had accepted a challenge they didn't want to take and had performed it. It was a measure of achievement, and I think it made quite a significant impact on them.

Each of us felt it was a highlight of the camping trip and that their attitude improved after that. Mr. Speaker, a common thread in each of those three areas is volunteerism. The point I want to make is that for all the money the government might put into this type of program — and I support the spirit of the motion. But you come down to the practical applica­ tion, and I'm not entirely sure what is meant or what should be meant. Some four or five years back, I visited the Youth Development Centre just outside Edmonton. I don't offer any criticism of the program there.

I'm sure the people conducting the in-house program are to be complimented on their sincerity, their commitment to it. But the attitude of the boys and girls there con­ trasted to what I saw at the Stampede Ranch and to what I saw in the Enviros project. It was totally dif­ ferent. I'm certainly not criticizing government pro­ gram or government commitment in what I say, but hopefully it has improved from the day I was there. That day there was a tremendous scrap. Two fellows were having at it; a chesterfield had been upended; the whole place was in chaos. I'm sure that wasn't a daily occurrence.

But it wasn't a happy place, let's put it that way. We talked to staff. They were having trouble recruiting and maintaining staff. By and large, the incarceration situation you see out there, without the outdoor challenge, I don't think is the answer to the problem of juvenile delinquency which the Member for Calgary McCall has outlined today. The real answer, Mr. Speaker, is to give these chil­ dren a challenge, some self-esteem, an opportunity for accomplishing or doing something that will be meaningful to them. And I think it will be different for each one.

It isn't necessarily reading, writing, and arithmetic. That is part of it. But surely it must be something more than that. Maybe it's busting a buck­ ing horse, branding a cow, or learning how to work common labor with others, in a common purpose, where each one feels some esteem, that they're not being put down, that they're doing what they like doing and are capable of doing. That's where I come down to volunteerism, Mr. Speaker. I think the difficulty is in finding people, such as are at the Stampede Ranch, in the Enviros program, or in the project in Calgary referred to by the hon.

Member for Calgary Fish Creek. Those kinds of programs are so much better than any program where you take public servants, as dedicated and com­ mitted as they may be, simply hand them a budget and an institution, and say, develop a program for these youngsters. That doesn't work. Your recidivism comes from that type of institutional effort, as distinguished from a co-operative, participation project between peo­ ple out there volunteering because of a sincere com­ mitment to what they are doing. Contrast it to the daily input of a dedicated civil servant.

It is a job with him, probably something more, certainly nothing less. But still, it isn't a thing of the heart, except as a profession. So, Mr. Speaker, I support the spirit, the intention of the resolution. The difficulty is in defining what the application is, and I think the solution to that is to encourage private-sector groups to get out there and develop more Stampede projects, more Enviros projects. The only other thing I would say, Mr. Speaker, is that we talk about preventive action.

When we use that term, in a way it is a misnomer, because we're talking about children who have already developed or given strong indications that they are not a part of the system. They're rebels. Counselling may be fine at that time, but prevention is probably a little late. What I would remind hon. members about prevention is that each one of us every day has an opportunity for preven­

200 ALBERTA HANSARD June 5, 1979 tion, be it in the school system, church, community, whatever. Every time you go to a little league ball diamond, coach or umpire a game; every time you go to an amateur hockey arena, you are in effect, I think, preventing juvenile delinquency; that is, in the real preventive stages, not after it's gotten going. I think some of our government programs, the matching grant program where we match local communities dollar for dollar, building recreation and sporting fa­ cilities. That's where the real prevention work is. The rest of it is shutting the barn after the horse is out.

All of it is important, it's all a package. But the real endeavor should be to stop it before it gets going. Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate every­ body involved in this very important topic. I look forward to further contributions. MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the motion presented to this Assembly by the hon. Member for Calgary McCall. Because this is an item of deep concern to many Albertans, I too would like to commend the hon. member for bringing forth this motion. Mr.

Speaker, I feel I am somewhat qualified to speak to the motion because, through the Kinsmen Club of Calgary, I have been involved in a limited capacity with juvenile offenders who occupy the service centre located in the northwest corner of Calgary. My first experience with these young people was the morning of December 25, 1977. Each year on Christmas morn­ ing, the Kinsmen Club of Calgary provides these youngsters with that jolly old gentleman who brings joy and anticipation into the hearts of children throughout the world every Christmas Eve. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am not so naive as to pretend that these young people were still at the age of retaining belief in the existence of that generous gentleman but, un­ fortunately, some people in this world would better their lives and the lives of others if they would follow his example of giving without expecting something of equal value in return. Through the co-operation of the excellent staff of the service centre, the type of gifts to be given these young people are determined by careful assessment of each youngster, for obvious reasons. However, Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to imply to this Assembly that the young people I am referring to are all muggers or murderers. Back to the morning of December 25. We were to be at the service centre at 9 a.m. which, if all went according to plan, would be immediately after their breakfast. We were there at 9 o'clock, but did not see those youngsters until 9:45. The reason was that when breakfast was finished, the count made of the knives and forks came up one fork short of those distributed prior to breakfast. Mr. Speaker, no one is allowed out of that locked room until all utensils have been accounted for.

This precautionary measure, I believe, is justified on the basis of safety of the other occupants and the staff. The youngsters then filed in and, although it was Christmas morning and these were children, not hard-core criminals with years of offences on their re­ cords, there was a very sombre air and an uneasiness among them. While the gifts were being distributed, the youngsters appeared to become more and more relaxed.

I made it a point to sit down and talk with a number of these young people over the two hours that fol­ lowed, and the majority of the youngsters I spoke to that morning were victims of some unfortunate cir­ cumstance that caused them to be placed in that service centre. For example, one boy, who I would guess to be approximately 11 years of age at that time, told me his father was killed approximately two and a half years earlier in an automobile accident.

His mother remar­ ried about a year later and, by some ugly twist of fate, the mother and stepfather began to beat this young lad for, in his words, almost everything including breathing. The beatings continued until finally the boy ran away from what his mother and stepfather called home. After running away several times and subsequently being found and returned by the authorities, and upon each return being severely beaten, the young lad crept into the kitchen late one evening, obtained a knife, went to the bedroom where his mother and stepfather were sleeping, and stabbed his stepfather.

Fortunately, the boy was not successful in carrying out his ultimate goal. To make this story short, he was finally placed in the service centre. In speaking to some of the other youngsters that Christmas morning, Mr. Speaker, I found that al­ though each individual's story on why they were in the service centre varied considerably, the one thing most of them had in common was the fact that they were, in most cases, what we commonly know as normal, healthy children, but were driven to committing some sort of illegal act which ultimately led them to become residents of the service centre.

After all the gifts had been distributed and carols were sung, I spoke to one of the staff members to determine if the stories these youngsters had told me were true or possibly somewhat exaggerated. Mr. Speaker, I was told by that staff member that most of the experiences related to me were true and not exag­ gerated, including the experience of the 11-year-old boy I spoke of earlier. No, Mr. Speaker, I am not saying all juvenile of­ fenders are victims of innocent circumstance. But, on the other hand, possibly most of them are. The circum­ stances they are victims of fall into various categories.

What about the normal, healthy child brought up in an affluent society, so affluent that the child's parents, instead of showering him with love, shower him with material things to keep him occupied while they carry on life with more important things. How does a child like that receive attention, any sort of attention? He does things for kicks, usually at the expense of others and, unfortunately, that attention is provided by the police. What about the other child who is brought into this world, not because he is wanted but because of a mistake, if I may use the word, committed by the parents?

Oh, I know that in the majority of cases the child is well cared for and brought up to be a respon­ sible citizen. But what about the others who aren't? Also, Mr. Speaker, what about the abused child and, in extreme cases, the battered child? His outlook on society is so distorted that he is incapable of determin­ ing right from wrong. Yes, we've all heard stories like the last three ex­ amples, and we all sympathize. I'm sure any member of this Assembly would be able to tell us of children they have heard of who fall into many other categories of being victims of circumstance.

But what are we going to do about it? Mr. Speaker, we as legislators have a

June 5, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 201 moral obligation to our young people and to society to ensure that our juveniles have the proper programs in the form of proper and adequate preventive counsel­ ling in the community, and proper and adequate reha­ bilitation programs for the existing juvenile offenders. Thank you. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to speak in support of the motion today. In doing so, I'd like to address myself to three questions: first, what is the concern; second, what is being done today; and third, are those things that are being done today adequate?

First, in regard to our concerns, from listening to the other speakers today our first concern is that Canada has the highest recidivism rate in the western world. Second, Alberta led the nation in terms of drug, sex, and violent crimes. Third, our existing programs have been ineffective. The rehabilitation programs have not been overly successful; the training schools have been ineffective as well. Finally, our fourth con­ cern is the high cost to society of crime, incarceration, and rehabilitation. The second question I wanted to address was what our provincial government is doing about these th­ ings.

I've been advised that at the present time we're funding 66 different programs at a total cost of $2.6 million, as well as 28 youth projects through our Department of Social Services and Community Health. Using the number other speakers provided today of 400,000 juveniles in the province, I calculate that to work out to about $6 per juvenile in the province of Alberta. So the question is: is that $6 an adequate sum to spend on an area of such major concern? In my opinion it's not. Also, as other members have pointed out today, the Kirby report has pointed out that we're not doing enough in this province.

I might note here that the Kirby report made 100 recommendations for changes in regard to juveniles in the justice system in the province. A previous speaker, from Little Bow, noted that 30 of those recommendations were still to be implemented. Inasmuch as that report isn't more than a year and a half old, I would think that this govern­ ment has a good record in implementing 70 per cent of those recommendations in that short period of time. I'm certain the rest are on the horizon as well. The next question that comes from that is: are these programs adequate? My response to that is no.

I don't feel that these programs are adequate, for two reasons. I believe that in the years to come there's going to be more crime in Alberta than there is today. The first reason for that is that Alberta is undergoing, as we all know, rapid economic development. A lot of good things come with that development. We enjoy a high­ er standard of living. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't be difficult to demonstrate that Alberta has one of the highest standards of living in the world today. But there are going to be a lot of social problems associated with that progress, crime being one of them.

Until this point in time I think Alberta's been fortunate, in that we haven't had the population that would support mass crime, syndicated crime, Mafia- type crime. In other cities where there is a population, a large enough market, to support those types of th­ ings, we've seen that that has indeed occurred. That hasn't been the situation in Alberta until now. But with rapid economic development, the growth in popula­ tion, it's not hard to envision this situation occurring in the future. So for that very reason I believe we have to be prepared for those, problems that are going to occur in the years to come.

A second reason I believe there's going to be a greater incidence of crime in Alberta, and in other places in the world, is the change in our life style, the way we live, the rapid change in technology we've experienced, and the social and emotional disruption and upheaval that occurs with those things. If we think back a few years, it wasn't very long ago that flying in an airplane was a unique experience. As a matter of fact my parents came to western Canada in a wagon train, and it took me a lot of years to convince them that they ought to fly in an airplane.

They said, you're not going to get me up in one of those things. Well I can take that same experience they had and look forward to the next thirty years, and I think I could say — I was going to say, with a great deal of certainty, but I can't do that — but I could forecast that in our lifetime, in our generation, we or our children will be engaged in commercial rocket travel. My children are going to say to me, dad, come on up in one of those things, and I'm going to say, no, you're not going to get me in one of those contraptions.

The point I'm trying to make is that because of these new techniques, these new developments, there's going to be a great deal of future shock. People are going to have trouble adjusting to these things, and the people they're going to have the most impact on are the juveniles of our society. I believe that a motion such as this, giving forethought to their needs, is a good motion. I support it wholeheartedly. The question comes down to what should