Manitoba Hansard — 28 June 1993 (Sitting 91B, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-91b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XLII No. 91B • 8 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 28,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Le�Jislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRE TT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CER ILLI, Maria nne CHOMIAK , Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEW AR, Gr egory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, Ja mes, Hon. DRIED GER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Pa ul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ER NST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDL AY, Glen, Hon. FR IESEN, Jea n GAUDRY, Neil GI LLESHA MM ER , Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELW ER, Edwa rd R.

HICK ES, George LAMOUR EUX , Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURE NDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Ji m MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTIND ALE, Doug McALP INE, Ger ry McCRAE, Ja mes, Hon. MciN TOSH, Linda , Hon. MI TCHELS ON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PA LLISTE R, Br ian PE NNER, Ja ck PL OHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darr en, Hon. RE ID, Daryl RE IMER, Ja ck RE NDER , Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFAN SON, Eric, Hon. STOR IE, Jer ry SVEI NSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOW CHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTITU ENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Ki ldona n Ste.

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4824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 28, 1993 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Or der, please. Wi ll the Committee of Supply please come to order. Hon.

Darren Pr aznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): Ma da m Cha ir, I would lik e to sugg est the committee tempora rily interrupt its proceedings so that the Speaker may resume the Chai r so as to de ter mine whe ther there is una nimous consent of the Hous e to vary the sequence of the Est im ates consider atio n by allowi ng the Department of Urb an Affairs to be heard in the commi ttee outside of this Cham ber pr io r to the Depar tment of Northern and Native Affai rs , and whether or not there wou ld be unanim ous consent to allow a second dep artment to begin hearing Esti mates tonight after 10 p.m. inside the committee outside of the House.

Madam Chairperson : Is it the will of the committee to temporarily suspend the proceed ings of Committee of Supply to de al wi th the order of the Estimates? [agr eed] IN SESSION Hon. Darren Pr aznlk (Deputy Gov ernment House Leader): Mada m Deputy Speaker, I would ask you to please canvass the House to see if there would be unanim ous consent to vary the order of the Esti mates for the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting outside of the Cham ber in that the Department of Urba n Affairs may be allowed to be heard pr io r to the Department of Northern and Native Affair s, as well to canvass the House to see if there would be unanimous consent to allow a second depar tment, for tonight only, to begi n its Esti mates after the hour of 1 0 p.m., in the secti on of the committee sitting outside of the Cham ber.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Louise Dacquay): Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the order for the Estimates to dea l with the Department of Urb an Affai rs outside the Cham ber prior to de aling wit h the Es timates for the Depar tment of Northern and Native Affai rs? [agr eed ] Is there una nimous consent of the House to allow permission to start the Es timates of Northern and Native Affairs after ten o'clock this evening only, if requir ed. [agr eed) · The House wi ll now convene in Committee of Supply. URBAN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good evening.

Wi ll the Commi ttee of Sup ply please come to order. This evening this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 wi ll be consid ering the Esti mates of the Department of Urb an Affairs. Does the honourab le Mi nister of Urb an Affai rs have an opening statement? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased, at long last, to present the '93-94 Es timates for the Department of Urb an Affai rs. The message contained in the Es timates is the sa me one that my ca binet colleag ues have emp hasiz ed thr oughout the curren t legislative sessio n.

Specifically, they have said that Manitoba faces many fiscal challenges whi ch requi re difficult decisions to be made. This is true when we dea l with remote northern communities, it is true for rur al Manitoba, and it remains true for the resid ents of Wi nnipeg and their civic admin istration. My dep artment has kept the city informed of the financia l realities facing the provi nce in det ermining budgets and allocating grants for the '93-94 fiscal year.

In the wa ke of reduct ions in feder al transfer payments to Manitoba, we informed Mayor Susan Thompson early in the city's budget cycle of the need to adjust our budget priorit ies. As a resu lt, we have reduced provincial grant support to the city by 2 percent . We do not beli eve this 2 percent reduc tion wi ll be too onerous on the city. Indeed,

4825 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 we have as ked mo re of our own pro vinci al departments, our civil service and the citizens that we deli ver services to. In these difficult financial times, we have all had to exam ine our spending ha bit s an d decide wher e we ca n reduc e expenditur es. During this fiscal year, the City of Winnipeg will receive $62,540,000 in grants from my dep artment. Items of significance include the funding the city receives for the Dutch Elm Disease progr am that has been transferred to my department from the Department of Natural Resources.

The province recog nizes the imp orta nce of preser vin g Winnipeg's magnificent heritage of elm trees and has doubled its commitment to this progr am from $3 50,000 to $700,000. In add ition, my dep artment has made a com mi tment to provide $15 1, 400 towards the growth of replacement stock for trees lost to Dutch elm disease along city boulevar ds and in park sites. The province has changed the Tra nsit Operating Gr ant so that it is now uncondition a l. This has been done to pro vide the city wi th gr eater au tonomy and to encour ag e it to operate as efficiently and prod uctively as possi ble.

The new funding form ula will allow the city to change its operation if it desires and to retain the full am ount of any operating efficiencies achieved. The pro vinc e has ma de $15. 2 mi llion in comm itments under the urb a n capital projects allocation. "J'hat commitment includes $8.1 million for infrastructure renewal projects. These projects will not only upgrade existing infrastructure within the city but will also create jobs and have beneficial effects on the econ omy. The provi nce is committed to infrastructure renewal and strongly supports the initiatives of the city in this ar ea. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, in ad dition to providing fina ncia l supp ort to the City of Winnipeg, the Department of Urb an Affair s continues to work with the city on wa ys of strengthening the structure of the municip al government and imp ro ving the quality of life for all of its citizens. Before going any further, I would like to pay tribut e to a ma n wh o made ma ny sign ific a nt contri butions to the growth and character of Winnipeg. Stephen Jub a was the mayor of the City of Winnipeg for 21 years. His leader ship has left a lasting mark on Winnipeg.

You can see evidence of his service to the public and of his accomplishments throughout the city. The city has recently under gone some other maj1or changes. After 13 years of dedic ated senrice in office, Bill Norrie retired from the mayor's chair. Winnipeg now has a new mayor operating with a new sma ller City Council that reflects the amtmdmen ts made to The City of Winnipeg Act. We ar e confident that these legislative changes will resul t in a mor e effecti ve and efficient ci ty admin istration.

My dep ar tment looks forwa rd to a positive wor lking relationship with Mayor Thompson and her collea gues at Ci ty Ha ll. I anticip ate that a legi:slative progr am will be introduced this fisca l year which will bring further am endments to The Cit�' of Winnip eg Act including some reve nue im prove ments. We ll, we have al rea dy been through all of that, respecting the collection of parking fines in particular. The City of Winnipeg will also benefit from VL T reve,nues beginning in 19 94 . Ten percent of net VL T revenues generated in Winnip eg will be provided unconditionally to the City of Winnipeg.

In ad dit ion , we will com mi t 25 per cent of VL T rev• :�nues to other economic development occurring in Winnipeg. • (201 0) With respect to urb an development, the final projt�cts under the renewed Core Area Initiative ar e being completed. Funds have been allocated to an ar cheological centre in the redeveloped Johnston Termin al buil ding at The Forks and to the first phase of The Forks Plaza. A total of $931 ,000 from the Core Area Initiative will be spent on these projocts with Manitoba's share being $3 10,300.

Lil<e other projects under the ag reement, it is a joint under taking of the City of Winnipeg, the province and the feder al government. Still at The Forks , we have budgeted $1 million for The Forks Renewal Corporation. These funds repn�sent the province's portion of the commitment that was made by the three levels of government und Ei r the equivalency agr eement for The Forks . The fu nds will enab le the continuation of the redev elopment of this im portant ar ea of the city of Winnip eg in a wa y that is sympathetic with its historic significance. Mr .

Deputy Chairperson, we have also included $2.5 million in this year 's budget for a new urban

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4826 redeve lopment agr eement. We ar e still hopeful that we will be ab le to convince the fed eral government to enter into a tripartite agr eement that will add ress the needs of Winnipeg in the 1990s . If we ar e not successful, we will explore with the City of Winnip eg the potential for a partnership in a bilateral agr eement. A strong and vital Winnipeg remains a priority of our government. We hope to be ab le to announce the terms of a new agreement once all of the negotiations have been completed.

I would lik e to close by touching briefly on a couple of items concerning planning. The Capit al Region committee estab lished by our government continues to meet regular ly. Members will recall that this comm ittee gives Winnipeg and its municipal neighbour s an opportunity to work as equals. We ar e confident that through their efforts, the competitiveness, attraction and quality of life in the capital region will be enhanced.

In the coming year the committee wi ll continue to focus its efforts on developing the Capital Region strategy which is one of the compone nts of Ma nitoba's overall su staina ble developm ent strategy. Plan Winnipeg has now been approved. It will help set the City of Winnipeg on a course for orderly planning in the crucial years ahead. My staff of some 18 people have come through an eventful year. They have dea lt successfully with a variety of challenging issues and these dedi cated professionals deser ve a great de al of credit for their very hard work and fulfilling the mandate of the departme nt.

This is a very sm all departm ent. These individu als do a great dea l of work and have demons trated regul a rly gr eat prof essional expertise and dedic ation. I thank them for that. Mr . Deputy Chair , that concludes my introd uction. I invite questions and discussion on these Estimates. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Ur ban Affairs for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourab le member for Elmwood (Mr . Maloway), have any opening comments? Mr. Jim Maloway (Elm wood) : Mr .

Deputy Chai rpe rson, I think I will make a few opening com ments, then per haps the member for the Liberal Party would like to do the same, and then we could get into some questions of the minister. I note that the Urb an Affairs dep ar tment wa s set up as a separate department in 197 1 , and I am wondering whether it may be time to review the role of the dep ar tment and see wh at it real ly has accomplished and is accomplishing , becau se I would not wa nt to see the dep artment be simply a make-work pr oject for another minister. I really wonder what the minister has been doing over the last couple of years.

I know that we were talking ab out a third Core Area Initiative, and I see nothing has been done in that ar ea. Now ju st before an upcoming feder al election, there is some sign that there might be something perking. Perha ps it is time, when governme nts ar e looking at reducing costs and so on, that they might look at getting rid of some redundancy in the cabinet perhaps and look at reassessing some of the cabinet positi ons with a view perh a ps to amalgamating some of the dep artments.

I say that with the utmost respect for the minis ter, because of all the ministers I have dealt with since I have got here, I have to say that in the short time that I have had dealings with him, he is probably the best of the bunch so far and seems open to talk ab out different ideas. I woul d li ke the mi nister to respond to that because, by his own adm ission, it is a very small department. It only has 18 staff positions in the entire dep a rtm ent, and I do not think that any department's longevity should be carved in stone.

I think government should reassess, every once in a while, the role of departments with a view to making things perhaps more relevant to the times. So either this mi nister should get more active and do something about a third Core Area and take a more activist role in this ar ea, or perhaps they should look at another role for him . Anyway, with that, I would pass to the Liberal critic to mak e her opening comments, if she will. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks.

Does the critic from the second opposition, the honourable member for Cresce ntwood, have any opening remarks? Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the minister for his comments, in particular his kind words for the staff. That is alwa ys good to hear, when the minister is in public complim enting staff who do spend a lot of hours and basically serve the people of Manitoba.

4827 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 Th e comments from the official opposition I find quite interesting. I am pleased to hear that the member for Elmwood is talking about efficiencies in depar tments. Tha t wa s cer tainly one of the questions that I had, and I am sure the minister wi ll take an opportunity to comment on that in terms of looking at the viability of this particular department as it exists and if there should be any potential changes to structure in government.

I know we, as the Liberal Pa rty, have been calling on government to look at restructuring since at least '88, and I am very pleased to hear the same sentiments from the member for Elmwood (M r. Malow ay), given most of us lived through the NDP government for over 1 0 years and certainly saw a lot of inefficiencies. So I am pleased to hear this positive approach, and I will leave it at that. I would lik e to basically get into questions and discussio ns. I think wh at we may do as we go through the department, rather than going

section by section, if there is agreement from the minister, is probably pass the sections until we get to the Mi nister's Salary and then we can ask our questions at that point. Although you want to have your staff here, and I do not know if you are able to do that unless there is leave for the deputy minister to be here. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic of the second opposition party for those statements. Under Man itoba pr acti ce, the de bate of the Minis ter's Salar y is traditionally the last item considered for the Estim ates of a department.

Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff. Maybe the committee can give me the will of how they decided they want to carry on this evening. Mr.

Ernst: I have no objection to handling matters as outlined by the member for Crescentwood, with the exception that if you get to the Mi nister's Salary and my staff are prohibited, not all of the questions may get answe red to your satisfac tion, simp ly because I will not have all of the det ail. So if you are agreeable, then I would prefer to have my deputy minister present. I would like to introduce, for those wh o do not know , Mr. Jim Beaulieu wh o is the Deputy Mir. ister of Urban Affairs. Mr.

Deput y Ch airper son : Wo uld ther e be unanimous consent then for the minister to keep his sta�f here dur ing the Minis ter's Salary? [agr eed) Tlhen we are going to go ahead and we are going to pass the lines necessary, and we wi ll come back to the Mini ster's Salary. lt"m 1. Admi nistration and Rnance (

b) Executive Suppor t

(1) Salaries $23 1 ,400- pass;

(2) Other Exp •enditures $43, 700-pass. (

c) Ad mi nistrative and Fi nancial Services

(1) Salaries $1 58,900-p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $36 ,900- pass. 2. Fi nancial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg (

a) Uncondit ional Cur re nt Pr ograms Gr ant $20,500,000- pass. (

b) Uncondi tional Tr ansit Op er ating Gr ant $17 ,1 00,000- pass. (

c) General Support Gr ant $8,240,000- pass. (

d) Dutch Elm Disease Control Pr og ram $700,000- pass. Re•solution 20 .2: RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $46 , 540,000 for Ur ban Affai rs , Fi nancial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1994 . 3. Ur ban Policy and Agreement Management (

a) Salaries $436 ,400- pass. (

b) Other Expenditures $129 ,800- pass. (

c) Canada -M anitoba Winn ipeg Core Area RenEIWed Agr eement

(1) Pa yments to Other lmpl •ementing Ju risdi cti ons zero-pass ;

(2) Pa yments to Other Pr ovincial Departments zerl> pass;

(3) Departmental Expenditur es zero-p ass. Reso lution 20 .3: RE SOLV ED that there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $566,200 for Urban Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 3"1 st day of March, 1994 . 4. Ex penditures Related to Capital (

a) Fi nancial Assis tance to the City of Winnip eg $16 ,000 ,000 -pas s. 4.(

b) Canada-Manitoba Winnip eg Core Area Renew ed Agreement

(1) Pa yments to Other Implem enting Ju risdictions $3 1 0, 30 0-pass;

(2) Paymsnts to Other Pr ovincial Departments zer�> pass;

(3) Departmental Expenditur es zero-p ass. 4.(

c) Urban Initiatives $1 ,800,000-p ass.

June 28, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4828 Resolution 20.4: RE SOLV ED that there be gr anted to Her Majes ty a sum not exceeding $1 8,1 1 0,300 for Urban Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1994. *

(2020) We will now return back to 1 .(

a) Minister's Sal ary. Ms. Gray: The minister in his opening comments talked about the Core Area Initia tive and negotiations that wer e continu ing on. I am wondering if the mi nister could give us an update of where those negotiations are at. Mr. Ernst: Well, I have been up and down with this program so many times and had great confidence it was going to happen, and you know the range or the spectrum of anticipation has, I think, covered just about every juncture along the way.

Currently, we have sim ply put to the federal government that if they are going to participate in a third Core Agreement, it has to be with real money. We are not prepared to accept recycling of existing pr ograms sim ply by pla cing them under the um brella of a core area agreement, when the money and the program is going to be delivered and is being deliver ed at the present time in Winnipeg. I mean it is just not on. If they are going to participate, they are going to be part of a Core Area Initiative, then they have to provide real money, they have to provide new money.

The original proposal was not acceptable. We went back to them and told them that. The Pr emier and the Prime Minis ter had a little visit, and we had expected some changes to occur back in Januar y. That did not occur-changes, not with respect to the Prime Minis ter's job, but with respect to their outlook on this agreement. There was a new min ister and a numb er of matters have intervened in the process.

Virtually, everything comes to a halt when all of a sudden there is a new minister, and then that new mi nister now with huge additional responsibilities in additi on to those that were assumed for being lead mi nister for Manitoba. To be fair, he had a lot on his plate in a big hur ry in terms of taking over the complete Agriculture portfolio, having his own Gr ains and Oil Seeds portfolio, then taking over responsibili ties for lead mi nister for Manitoba.

So there was a lot of work on the table, and I must say that we launched, initially at least anyway, into this issue with some confidence that it was going to be dealt with . Then of cour se what occurred was the federal budget process, which saw everything being held back, constrained and so on, created some further difficulties, but still anticipation that money could be found internally within departments of government. I do not care, quite frankly, if it is old money coming from Ontario, as long as it is new to us.

Nonetheless, then, of course, the Prime Mi nister resigned, and then we had the leadership and all of this going on which ki nd of occupied a considerable am ount of the federal government's time and virtually things jus t did not happen during that process. I am hopeful now that that is all out of the way. We have a new Prime Minis ter. "She will be embarking, with a new cabinet, upon attempts to reconfigure the government, and I am hopeful that this issue will be one of those things that can be includ ed. We have been unrelen ting in our pressure upon the government to try and conclude a new agreement.

We recognize very well the high desirabil ity of a new agreement; we recognize the kind of go od things that occu rred in past agreements; we recognize some of the things that did not work so well in the last agreements as well. Those kinds of things, I am sure, will be changed should a new agreement occur.

The bottom line is, and the Premier has ind icated it on a number of occasions, that if in fact we do not reach some kind of an agreement with the federal government at some point, and when that point is has not yet been determ ined, we are prepared to go it alone with the city in an attempt to try and at least address some of the issues that confront Winnipeg. So in a sense, I did not want to carry on too long, but that is basically where we are at and kind of how we got there. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, there have been comments made by governments and people who are involved in Core I and Core II about the positives of the progr am, the negatives and some evalua tion has been done . If the province is fortunate enough to get some type of agreement from the federal government for another initiative, and I will not call it Core, but another initiative of Phase Il l, can the mi nister tell us what types of changes he would lik e to see in that type of an agreement, and would the em phasis be on rehabil itation programs, social programs and

4829 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 educ ation or wo uld there be more emphasis on infras tructur e progr ams, or mi ght ther e be a combination? Mr. Ernst: It is hard to say just at this point. There we re a number of general areas that were dealt wi th: urban aboriginals, Main Street, educ ational programs, training progr ams, things of that nature. I mean, there we re a number of issues of broad general categories that wer e addressed. What I have committed to all along was that I would like to hear from those people who are the ones who are going to be the beneficiaries.

I would lik e to hear what they have to say, where they think the money should be spent, where they see their lives heading and how it can be assisted by this. It is fine for a whole host of ur ban planners, social wo rkers and a variety of other professionals trying to create their view of wh at these people should be doing and how they should be affected . It might be pretty interesting to hear what they have to say for themselves, wh ere they see the benefits lying, where they see the assistance that is required, and where they ultimately see themselves headed.

So that public hearing process is somethi ng that I have agreed wi th all along. Whenever you deal wi t h the federal government, I have come to learn, is that the money coming from any line departme nt- and that is generally wher e it comes from in the federal government is from a line dep ar tment- it alw ays comes wi th stri ngs attached. Sometimes you have to live wi thin the range that those strings allow you to operate, and it does not always allow you to do exactly wh at you wa nt to do. Sometimes you have to adj ust your thinking to meet the program guidelines of federal go vernmen t dep artm ents .

So wi thin those constraints, I guess we are pretty open to what we mi ght be able to do. Ms. Gray: Was there not an evaluation that wa s done of Core II though that had some specific recommendati ons in terms of what wo rked well and what did not, or a final report of some sort? Mr. Ernst: Let me point out that this document was produced on behalf of the Core- l do not know whether you have seen that-wh ich basically talks in glowi ng terms about most things and really did not get into anythi ng else than kind of stressing the positive.

And there wer e lots of positives to stress, I do not mean to demean that for one second. Part of the original Core II Agreement wa s a detailed evaluation to be done, to spend-1 forget, but I think it was in excess of $1 00,000 or more on detailed evaluation. Wh en it came dow n to the end on wh ether we we re going to spend that money on detai 1led evaluation or fund some fairly wo rthwhile proje cts, we opted to fund the projects and not spend it on the evaluation. We did not do the detail ed evaluation that was contemplated initially. * (203 0) Ms. (�ray: Mr .

Deputy Chairperson, if for some reasc'n an agreement wi th federal government for a trilate,r al agreement is not possible, and at some point the minis ter has to basically come to the realization, if that ever happens, that that is not possi ble. You ha ve indic ated that you ar e prepctred to enter into a bi lateral agreement wi th the city, does the minister have any idea as to wh at kind of do llars the province is looking at, and are those dollar s-i s there a different amount of dollars depending on whether it is a bilateral agreement or whether it mi ght be a trilateral agr eement? Any sense' of that? Mr.

E:rnst: We had talked wi th the city and the feder al government at $25 milli on each. I think the city has budgeted in their five-year capital plan for that IEwel of contribution. I do not think it matters par tic:ul arly wh ether we are wi th the fede ral government or wi thout the federal government . Our ccJntri bution level would be in the same area at $25 mi llion for five years. Mr. frlaloway: Just to expand a little bit on the question of the Core Area, you had said that you would go alone wi t h the city. I was wo nderin g wh en you would make that decision.

At one point are you going to give up on the federal government if it does not partici pate and go it alone in terms of-1 wo uld lik e some kind of date on this [i nterjE�ction] Yes, like just before the election. Mr. Emst: But do not tell me when the election is going to be. The, whole ques tion of levering the federal government into an agreement is a matter that has certain potential wi ndow s of opportunity. One of those wi ndow s of opportunity is a federal election campaign and/ or just ahead of a federal election campaign.

So I do not care, quite frankly, if that is an eiE�ction gimmic k, if you wan t to use that terminology, as long as we get the money. As long as the program is in place, I do not care how it

June 28, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4830 comes. H somebody wa nts to use it for political benefit, that is the name of the game. Mr. Maloway: So having said that then, would the minister tell me at what point he plans to get really active with the feder al government? Is now the time to be phoning them and being aggr essive with them, or does he think maybe another month or two might do? When is he going to do this? Mr. Ernst: I have been doing it for a year and a half with a variety of different people.

The players change and the budgets change and so on, but I mean, as I indic ated earlier, we have not let up on this issue at all. It is not a question of getting active. The fact of the matter is, we have been and ar e continuing to be and ra ise it every time we meet and several times in between to determine what potential is on the horizon for this issue. It is a constant issue to be dealt with with the feder a l government. Mr.

Maloway: So pre sum a bly then, once the federal election is over and if nothing has been done at that time, then that is the point in time that the minister will go to the city and do it with the city then as opposed to the three. Mr. Ernst: I do not wa nt to com mit to an y particul a r time lines, bu t there ar e, as I sa id , windows of opportunity that occur from time to time that avai l themselves for issues of this type. Mr. Maloway: The member for Crescentwood had a resolution last week on the Core Area , and I remember making a few comments on that.

One of them had to with the bound ar ies, and I felt the previous bound ar ies of Core I and Core II tended to be fairly politic al in their dr awin gs. In Core I the bounda ries ra n wa y out into Fo rt Rouge and so on. I did not see how that was all core ar ea. Then all of a sudden the feder al Conservatives came in, and in Core II the bounda ries were running wa y out to St. Boniface. It just seems to me, you know I have a couple of problems with that.

Another problem that you have, of course, is that if you have wide bound ar ies that go beyond the core and you only have so much money to sprea d ar ound, you sprea d it kind of thin. Mr. Ernst: I think, in terms of a third agreement, I just wa nt to make one comment with respect to what we have been ab le to accomplish up to this point, in terms of the new political minister for Manitoba from the federa l government, is that we have concluded an agr eement to merge North Portage and The Forks into one corporation.

Wrth the new mayor, the new minister and myself, we have been able to reach agreement on that, and we ar e proceeding on that. We hope to get that accomplished _s ometime this fall and to save some, I think, sign ifica nt operating monies and some greater operating efficiencies in terms of the overall operation of those two public corporations. The question of the bounda ries was alwa ys a diff icult one, and I admit that it is pretty obvious why bounda ries got to be where they were.

But there were three parties to those agr eements, and the three parties and their represe ntatives of those da ys ultimately determined that wa s acceptable to them. In Core I, for the provincial government it was my former colleague and now Mr. Jus tice Mercier. In the second Core Agreement, it wa s your Leader , Mr. Doer, the memb er for Concordi a , who ultimately had ag reed on behalf of the provi ncial government that those bound aries were adequate. But very often, the issues that ar e trying to be ad dressed do not kno w an y bou nda ries geograp hic bounda ries, that is.

I think wh at we have talked ab out in all our discussions up to this point wa s that we would try and ai m at issues and try and solve specific prob lems with this new ag reement, as opposed to trying to simply carve up a piece of real estate and say this is what is going to happen in this ar ea. If somebody needs trai ning and is on socia l as sis tance, and has the potential to rema in there for a long period of time, it does not matter where they live within the city bounda ries.

If we ar e going to try and target some of those things, we will try and target on the basis of need and problem ar eas as opposed to geographic ar eas. Mr. Maloway: I take some comfort with what the minister has said, although history kind of shows that things do not work out that wa y. They use the best of intentions to direct the money to those in need, but the political bound ar ies decisions of the past-a nd I do not wa nt to ab solve any party of its role in there.

I mean, it is jus t a fact of life, just the nature of the beast, having a tripa rtite situation lik e this means that each party is trying to get the best de al it can. So you have something that, I guess, proba bly should be unwork able, but I as sume it has worked out all right in spite of it, but I cannot see

4831 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 19 93 wh ere it could be overly efficient having a structure lik e that. •

(2040) Now, I wa nted to ask the mini ster about the situation regarding St. Germain and Headingley. Headingley has been gone now for, I guess, about a year and St. Germain is still talking about it. Could you give us a bit of an update on wh at has transpired in those areas? Mr. Ernst: With respect to Headingl ey, it no longer falls under the ju risdiction of the Department of Urban Affairs. It is par t of rural Manitoba at the moment. I take some credit and, I think, outdid the Mi nister responsible for Decentralization wh en in one fell sw oop we added 1 ,300 or 1 ,400 people to rural Manitoba.

They are doing well. Part of Headingley is in my constituency, and I visi t there from time to time. They are doing very we ll. They have a sense of com muni ty that I do not think anyone really appreci ated, the fact that they wer e in fact a rural community for a long, long period of time, wh ether the boundary said they wer e in Winnipeg or the boundary said they wer e not. The fact of the matter wa s that they collectively, both north and south of the river, had the sense of community that is generally found in most areas of rural Manitoba.

When they put out their tax bills this spring there wa s a 15 percent reduction over levels of last year. At the same time, they invested significant capital in terms of acquisition of a building for their municipal offices and fire hall. They also acquired a couple of vehicles to start a volunteer fire department, and they had a very successful we ekend on the 13th and 14th of June wi th the Headingley Home coming. I think they are well on their wa y to having their self-government, shall we say, operations cond ucted in the fashion in wh ich they had anticipated. St. Germain-! hear from Dr.

Shapiro wh o is their spokesperson from time to time- brought a petition to the Legislature almost two years ago, I guess, now, requesting us to undertake a stud y similar to the study that was unde rtaken by Heading ley under the Pawley government and under the leadership of Urban Affairs Minis ter Doer at the time. They wa nted to have us under take that study on their behalf to determine wh ether financially it wa s viable for them to separate. I asked them to hold a public meeting in St. Germain subsequent to that to determ ine the level of int,erest.

It is one thing to sign a petition; it is qui te something else to come out to a public meeting and express your views. The member of the L•�gislature for that area held a public meeting in St. Ger main, actually in St. Vi tal, but for St. Germain residents and somewhere in the area of 400 t•:> 500 people showed up. I mean, it was a very, very well attended meeting, and I heard an awful lot of very good comments from people wi th respect to wh at they had anticipated for themselves in the future and so on.

The•ir situation is somew hat di fferent in some respects to Headingley but in many respects it is also the same. Their attitude wa s not quite the same. Headingley started off on the basis that they wa nted to secede. They wa nted to be on their own and they wa nted to form their own municipality. I did not get that sense of feeling from the meeting at St. Ge•rmain. I think there are an awful lot of people that ar e interested in some recognition of the fact that they do not receive all the services that the serviced area of the city receiv es, yet they are taxed the same.

They are looking more for some recognition of the reduced services they received in the form of a tax red uc tion than they are necessarily about sucession. I have been encouraging the city all along. I have wr itten to the mayor two or three times offering suggestions as to how they mi ght be able to recognize that concern of the residents of St. Germain. Up to this point it has not been terribly successful. The city has tended to simply ignore the issue, although they have paid some service to the fact after the councillor for the area and Dr.

Shapiro last appeared before executive committee, I think, in the last two or three weeks, that they have asked for some 60 days to look at it and so on. I think I am prepared to wa it until they consider wh at they might do and then we wi ll see wh ere we go frorn there. Mr. Maloway: I wo uld lik e to ask the mini ster about 11he wh ole business of hydrogen, I think it is. In California there is quite a move as you know to legisla te wi thin five years or so a certain percentage of vehicles that have to be burning other than fossi l fuels.

There is technology out in Va ncouver , B.C., I believe that is qu ite revolutionary in the hydrog en field. If the member knows anything about hydrogen, evidently it burns -

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4832 clean and it is a good thing to be looking at right now. I wonder if the government has given any consider ation to helping the city or encouraging the city to perhaps convert its fleet of buses and so on to hydrogen. I recall 20 years ag o, at least, the Schreyer government had electric cars her e, they had Renault 12 s, I think they were from Mi nnesota, that they had converted to electrica l propulsion and they were trying them out here in the government fleet.

They had one her e righ t in front of the Legis lative Building and it wa s motoring its wa y ar ound. Now, the progr a m did not work all that well evidently over time, and that wa s 20 years ago, but the point is that that government was at least showing some forwa rd thinkin g in the ar ea of electric ca rs an d so on. No w, surely the technology has developed quite a bit over the last few years and I think this government should be looking at something to do with electric cars or hydrogen cars or whatever. Now, could you tell me whether you ar e looking at it or whether you have done anything at this point?

Mr. Ernst: The government has a Department of Energy, it has a Department of Environment, it has a number of ar eas quite apar t from the Department of Ur ban Affairs that dea l with a great number of these issues. Fr om time to time, when those issues occur then in conjun ction with Winnipeg or other mu nicipali ties, pilot projects or test pr ojects or consider ations ar e given to any number of these kinds of issues, but they ar e not addr essed directly by the Department of Ur ban Affairs. Mr. Mal oway : The minister does sit in the cabinet.

I would expect that he would be aw ar e of any initiatives on this part, so I would ask him whether anything is being done in this ar ea, and if not, why not? Mr. Ernst: I said there ar e a number of issues energy -rel ated in other dep a rt ments in the government, not in the Depar tment of Ur ba n Affair s. The fact of the matter is, I think that, there being those kinds of issues and so on, they ar e being evaluated on a regular basis, not only by ourselves, but also by, for instance, the city fleet vehicles or city transit or those kinds of things. I remember the da ys of the electric cars.

I wa s at City Hall at the time when those electric cars came along and did not work. An Honourable Member: They work ed. Mr. Er nst: Well, why ar e they not widespr ead if they worked? · Nonetheless, Mr. Deputy Chair person, it is not going to serve anybody's pur pose to get into an ar gument ab out whether something that happened 20 years ago did or did not work.

The fact of the matter is, a number of those kinds of things ar e being evaluated, but they have to be evaluated in the sense that it is not simply good enough to say, yes, we can-we do not have the luxury anymore of spending huge amo unts of money ju st trying these things out to see if they work. They have to have careful eval uation based on technology, expert opinion and engineering an alysis before any of these kinds of things ar e unde rtaken. *

(2050) I know there ar e a number of vehicles both in the Crown corporation fleet and, I believe, in the city's fleet that ar e fired by propane, ethanol and a variety of substitute fuels to try and determine if they ar e more efficient, better than the standa rd gasoline or diesel fuel. There ar e a number of issues being unde rtaken, conside rations being under taken, alternate fuels being given consider ation from time to time, not necessarily because of the Depar tment of Ur ban Affairs, but becau se of technologies that come along. Mr.

Maloway: Following from that then, what has the minister done specific ally over the last year to encourage the city to get involved in curbside recycling and other recycling sort of ar eas? The Minis ter of Ur ban Affairs may be ab le to ar gue that he does not have direct jurisdict ion in these ar eas. Nevertheless, he should be involved in this ar ea, at least trying to get some results from the city. Mr. Ern st: Interesti ngly enough, Mr . Deputy Chairperson, whenever you make a suggestion to the city, they have their hand ou t-a suggestion of any kind.

In fact, they have their hand out even when you do not make any suggestions to the city. The fact of the matter is, for a long period of time, there were conditi onal gr ants being given by provinci al governments to the City of Winni peg.

4833 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 Th ose were rolled into block grants back in the late 1970s by the Lyon government. When those block grants, now havi ng been in place for 1 0 years or so, all of a sudden get forgotten, that is sort of the gi ven. Th e bottom line is the block grant. Now give me the conditio nal grants over and above that. It makes it di ffic ult. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair ) With respect to recycling programs in general, what the Minister of Environment has done, and I think should be commended tor- and you read a little bit about it.

I guess it was either in today's or yesterday's paper wit h regard to the Gr ocery Pr odu cts Manuf acturer s assoc iation and the negotiatio ns that he has been having, I guess as a result of the WRAP Act, to come up with basically a new industry. Th at is a private-sector funded indus try to recycle not just newspapers and tin cans, but to recycle virtually everything that these people pro duce. Th ey recycle it at their cost, and they are the ones then that are driven to find solutions or uses for their materials.

It is quite one thing to collect it, but we could be like Toronto and have a curbside recycling program that costs millions and all we have are wareh ouses full of empty liquor bottles and warehouses full of paper and things that cannot be used because there are no or very limi ted uses for them. Th e pres su re is on the in dus try, I think, in general, and they are respond ing.

Manit oba appears to be a good opportunity for a pilot project, so they can take the province of Manitoba and say, you have one kind of major metropolitan area wit h two-thirds of the population located in it, and that may make some sense in terms of a curbs ide operation. Th en you have the question of outside Winnipeg, which may make some sense in terms of a de pot type of operation. I am kind of excited. As a matter of fact, I happen to sit on a committee that is dealing wit h this issue, which is why I know a little bit more about it than might otherwise be expected.

I think there is an opportunity here to create not only some very good sustainable development activity, but to create an indus try along wi th it, that indus try wit hout government money, hopefully, that will carry out the kinds of things that we want to be carried out. I think there are some great opportunities here. I am hopeful that they all come to fruition and we do gain the benefit of that. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Acti ng Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask a few questions and refer specific ally to the Fin ancial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg under Capital Gr ants, wh ich is page 33 of the Supplementary Estimates. I am not sure wh at page it is in the Mai n Esti mates. I am wondering if the minister could assi st the committee in going through the expenditures and perhaps providing a bit more detai l, if he has any, beginning under Urban Capi tal Pr ojects Allocation I, a total of $90 million for Capital Commitments, if he could give an explanation of some of these. Mr.

Emst: Under the $90 million fund, that was the cap ital proj ect allocation that was ma de betwe13 n 1985 and 1990. Most of that has been delivered, although there are some commitments under that program that stil l remain outstanding. I guess the bi ggest one would be the York- St. Mary extension through The Fo rks for $8 million, which , I believE•. is the amount. Although I am going from memory, and so I stand to be corrected, I believe it is about $8 million. Th er e may be one or two other s that are not quite completed or whatever. Th at one is pretty much over with.

In terms of Urban Capital Pr ojects Allocation II , that was divided into three basic categories. It is $96 million altogether. Thirty million dollar s was to be for city priorities. Th e city could spend it on wh atever it wis hed, no stri ngs attached, so to speak. The second component of that was $40 million. Th at was to be spent on infrastructure renewal. We fell! it was a hi gh prio rity item that should be addressed. Th erefore, the strings attached were that the'y had to spend it on infrastructure renewal.

Th e last com ponent, $26 mi llio n, and the smalle�1t component, was on joint projects between the pro vince and the city wh er e the province viewed that it had an interest. I can tell you basically, I think- if you can just grant me a moment here. If I could ask the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gr ay), are you looking for somethi ng that is particular? I can go through reams and reams of paper and give you '91 , '92, '93 and our projections to the end of the agreement, if you like. If you have

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4834 some specific issues, I can try and answer those, or I can give you the whole nine yards, as you wish. Ms. Gray: In response to the question, Mr. Acting Deputy Chair person, if the minister has writt en information that he would be pr epared to table for us for our information-that would be one question. Mr. Ernst: I recently wro te the mayor outlining the balance of the $26 milli on commitment.

The others ar e at the city's choice, and they ar e block fundi ng, so I cannot tell you very much ab out those other than what they mi ght have spent them on after the fact. The $26 mil lion, I can give you some indic ation of that. I am not sur e whether I have that letter. If I do not have it wit h me, I can under take to get you a copy at a later time. Jus t give me a sec. here to see if I do have a copy of that letter. As a matter of fact, I do have it. This is the copy that was tabled by the Leader of the Opposition in the House. It is the same letter and the information is the same.

Basically what it is, is our $26 million under the ur ban projects capit al location is being spent on a detoxificat ion centre for the Main Street Project, $1 50,000; $1 50,00 0 for a downtown weather protected pedes tria n system; $1 05,000 for a nitrification study, phase two. It is a wa ste water treatment. I can go into the deta ils if you like. A transportation study, $1 54,000; $2.268 million towa rds the reconstr uction of St.

Anne's Road twinning from Sterling Avenue to Novavista Drive that will ultimately lead to a connection to the Perimeter Highway, which is the provincial interest; the La Salle Ri ver bridge which is part of our commitment on Pembi na Highwa y reconstruction wi thin the city of Winnipeg south of the Perimeter High wa y.

It is part of the Highwa y 75 twinning progr a m; $1 .788 million for the reconstruction of Kenas ton Boule va rd from Wil kes Avenue to McGilli vray Boulevard four-la ning; contribution of $1 .348 milli on towa r ds the paving of Wi lk es Avenue between Fai rmont Road and the Perimeter Highway, completion of a project started in 19 89, and it connects the Perime ter Hi ghwa y wi th Kenaston Boulevard. * (21 00) Bro oks i de Boule va rd $4.5 8 mi llio n, the constru ction of the four -lane portion between Ink ster Boule vard and the overp as s that wa s constructed by the province in 199 1 ; Char leswood bridge $13 mill ion-f ai rly ob vious .

Core Area Initiative land, we have an outstanding provision of $465,000 for balance of expropriated lands under the Core Area Initiative other than the monies held in tr us t. There is an unal located por ti on of $744,800. So that makes up $26 milli on. Ms. Gray: I thank the minister for that. I am wondering in regard to the $15 4, 000 for the transportation study, what particular study would that be? Mr. Ernst: The City of Winnipeg is looking into a fairly broad study of its transportation needs for the next period of time.

They have curr ently prop osal calls out for consultants to dea l wit h that study, and it is to look at all kinds of transportation wi thin the city transit, priv ate automobile, trucking, movement of goods, you know, a broad spectrum of an alysis. If you ar e looking to see it addressing certain neighbourhood traffic problems, I do not think that is the intent. That is quite a different matter, and apparently you ar e dea ling with that in a different way. This is the overa ll kind of tra nsportation system for the city. (Mr. Deputy Chai rp erson in the Chai

r) Ms. Gray: That transportation study, is part of that looking at the via bili ty of a southwest transportation corridor, or is the study that specific? Mr. Ernst: Oh, very likely that will be part of it. That has been ar ound since I star ted in politics 20 years ago at City Hall, so no doub t it will ra ise its head again. The question, I do not think at any point, is that it is not a good idea; it is a question of how can you fund it. It is significantly expensive. The last time I heard it wa s somewhere ar ound, upwa rds of $75 million or $80 million using just the bus option, not light rail transit.

If you are looking at the LRT, it is probab ly ab out two or three times that. Ms. Gray: The Charleswood bridge allocation, the $13 million, this is under the

section of Provincial City Priorit ies. I wa s under the impr ession-! could be wrong- that the Charleswood bridge is not a city prio rity. Mr. Ernst: I think you ar e wro ng. Ms. Gray: Is the minister indic ating then that the City of Winnipeg does feel that the Charleswood bridge is a priority, and it is something they ar e going to be constructing within the next few years? Mr. Ernst: It is my unde rstanding that money for a design and the property acquis ition were contained in prior years' and this year' s bud get, the capit al

4835 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 budget for the City of Winnip eg, and that they intend to proceed wi th full-budget allocation for construction in 19 94. Ms. Gray: If the city already has decided, or should the city dec ide for wh atever reason,

part icularly if they complete a study to look at transportation needs in the city in general, that they have repri oriti zed and that the Charlesw ood bridge is not a priority, wh at im pact does that have on the mi nister's budget allocations here? Mr. Ernst: I suppose we have to cross that bridge wh en we come to it. There are no time constraints or years indi cated on this comm itment. It is a commitment under the agreement, and they have until wh atever the latest time is to claim under the agreement to claim for this project, so they have lots of time to deal wi th it.

I could suggest that one or two or three years, in one way or another, it is probably not going to affect it materially. Ms. Gray: The reason I asked that question is I know some of the councillors, and I think the mayor as we ll, are particularly concerned about the entire transpo rtation system, or lack ther eof, in the southwe st part of the city.

I know , certainly wi th the development in Whyte Ridge and Linden Woods and in the south part of the city that really, as a city, we have not built adequ ate transportation systems to accomm odate that developme nt, wh ich is wh y- and I am pleased that there are at least some dollar s going into some repair of Kenaston, although $1 .78 mi llion is pr obably not a lot of dollars considering wh at may need to be done.

I am sure the mi nis ter is aw ar e of the transpor tation study that is going on in the Crescentwood-River Heights area which is looking at traffic flows, et cetera, and the problems that people in that area are experiencing because of through traffic, or the perception of through traffic, going through River Heights and Crescentwood. That is wh y I asked about the $1 3 million allocated to the Charleswo od bridge.

Basically, my real question to the minister would be, wh at type of leade rsh ip can the minister take or has the minister taken in encouraging the city that, before they look at any future development, that part of any type of development, residential development or even commercial, but particularly residential, can only be develop ed and planned along wi th looking at transportation systems, wh ich I wo uld suggest the city has not done a good job of in the last number of years. Mr. E:rnst: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, historically, we have had all kinds of gr eat plans for transportation routes in the city of Winnipeg. The best transportation plan that was ever produced, probably in the history of North American planning, was the WATS study produced in 19 68 for Metro. Tha.t plan is as relevant today as it was in 196 8. The problem is that the NDP government took over in 19 6·9, and the Highwa ys minister of the day, Joe Borowski , said there wi ll be no major routes of transportation in the city of Winnipeg, no freeways, nothing of that type at all.

This wa s bad stuff, according to the people of the day, and that plan was throw n out, abandoned, junked, and there was nothing left of that plan.

Notwithstanding that, the city has tried from time to tim•:� to build bits and pieces of that to try and utilize some of the benefits that wer e predicted from that plan, and have been more or less, more succe:ssful or less successful, in many cases, wi th respect to that. • (21 1 0) But the fact of the matter is that the overall transportation plan at that time was one that should have been implemented and should have been implemen ted then, in advance of a lot of the residential development that has occurred since, because once you buil d the res ide ntial developmen t you can never build the hi ghways after because the people wh o are there now do not want to have the noise, do not want to have the problems associated wi th it.

Wh1 �n you build a road in adv ance to that development, then the people know . When they get thme, they know that is going to be there and that is going to be either a benefit or a problem for them, as the case may be. But at least it is there and tho:�y know , and it is not coming along after the fact. It is no longer any goo d jus t to retain the right-of-w ay. We have got all kinds of right-of-way all over Winnipeg that wi ll never be used because of its close proxim ity to residential development.

So I am hopeful that this transportation plan, as it deals wi th the future, wi ll look at not only just putting it on paper but look at the implementation process as we ll, how it should be imp lemented , wh en it should be im plemented, how it should be funded

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4836 and a number of those issues, because otherwise, you ar e simply creating once more a very nice docum ent that will gather a lot of dust and will not ever see the light of da y. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wa nted to ask the minister ab out the Marwes t contract that he promised a couple of weeks ag o, and I am wa nting to know when that is going to be given to us. Mr.

Ernst: When we were de aling wit h the Annual Repor t of The Forks Corporat ion, the member ask ed if The Forks Corpor ation would provide a copy of the lease agr eement they had wi th Marwest . I have not heard back from them yet, so I will inquire. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell us when the committee will be meeting again to consider North Portage? Mr. Er nst: That will be at the direc tion of the House leader. Mr. Maloway: What the mi nister is telling me is that he does not know when the committee will meet, if it will meet, even. Mr. Ernst: I am not the House lead er.

House leaders of all three parties, and the member knows that, determine these things from time to time, so we will have to see what the House leader has orga nized. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we ll, I detect a bit of reluctance on the part of the minister and the people from The Fo rks Corpor ation to provide the information. I know we have a lot of questions that we wa nt to ask ab out the North Portage report and the North Portage development . I wa s concerned that perhap s the House leader mi ght not call the committee, but perhaps we will have to be dealing with that at a later time.

I wa nted to ask a question about the Dutch Elm Disease Progr am and so on. The minister has had this progr am brought into his purview from the Natura l Resources department. Now , what is currently happening with that progr am ? Mr. Er nst: What is happening is that we ar e spending twice as much money on it this year as we did last year. As a matter of fact, I have not had a single question from the member for Wolseley (Ms. Fr iesen) on the question of Dutch elm disease since we put $700,000 in our budget for that purpose. In fact, what we are doing in concert with the city is-and I think there wa s a major

article yesterda y in the paper de aling with that whole issue of dea ling with sanitation of elm trees. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased there is $700,000 that is going into the Dutch Elm Disease Progra m. It is a very im portant progr am, and I am pleased to see the dollars being spent in that area. It took a lot of lobbying on the part of a lot of people, but the point is, the money is there and it will be used to good purpose.

I was wonderi ng, since the change in the City of Winnipeg's boundaries with respect to the number of councillors, et cetera, and I know that a lot of the concerns or issues would go di rectly to city councillors or to City Hall, but has there been any feedb ack, at the minister's level or his dep ar tment, from taxpayers in Winnipeg ab out the changes in the boundaries and the redis tribution of the number of city councillors, etcetera? Mr.

Er nst: In it ial ly, when the prop osa l wa s announced, the reactions at the size of council-! think it represented proba bly at least two-thir ds of the people of Winni peg-were in favour of that initiative. Since the election of 19 92, and the fact of the matter is that there ar e now 15 councillors in operation at the City of Winnipeg, I have heard virtually nothing, no complaints at all. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, earlier on there were comments made ab out the efficiency of the Department of Urba n Affai rs.

In some of the other dep artments that I have been in, I have as ked ab out any type of rev iews, exp lanations or discussions ongoing ab out restructuring of various departments. I am wondering if the minister could indicate if the Department of Urba n Affairs, if his dep artment has looked at that not necessar ily with the view of am algamating with other depa rtments. It could be sections of other dep artments am algamating with Urb an Affai rs. So I am wondering if the minister could comment on that. Mr.

Er nst : I ca n sa y that, both from the perspective of minister of this dep artment and the Depar tment of Housing and from my role on Trea sur y Board for the past five or six years, we have looked at restructuring and reorga nizing a number of dep ar tments in the government. I do not think any ar e immune from that an alysis and that ongoing review of their function. It has

4837 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 been a fact of life,given the kind of fiscal constraints that we are under, that it has really forced a lot of reorganiz ation, tryin g to do things better, trying to do them smarter, trying to do them for less money than we did them in the past, and has prompted an awful lot of creativ e work on behalf of the staff in those departments and on behalf of min isters of the gove rnment in atte mp ting to deliver as mu ch program ming as possible with the dollars availabl e.

In that sense, yes, we are, and have been for the past number of years, cont inuously analyzing the operations of our depart men ts. Ms. Gray: Mr. De put y Ch ai rperso n, with the con tinua l analy sis of the depar tm ent, any suggestions and reco mme ndations for potential changes in the de partmental structure that the mi nis ter would be prepared to share with th is committ ee? Mr. Ernst: The answers to those two questions are yes and no. That was slightly faceti ous. Yes, we are looking at some things at the present time, and I am not really at liberty yet to discuss those with members of the committee.

They are not far enough down the line yet to warrant that. Ms. Gray: In regard to The City of Wi nnip eg Amendment Act where we were sit ti ng in com mi ttee the oth er day and had discussions surrounding the potential of giving authority to the City of Winnipeg in regard to charging libr ary fees, can the mi nister perhaps indic ate if he feels that the City of Winnipeg should have the authority to ma ke those decisions and be held accountable to the taxpayers for those decisions? * (212 0) Mr.

Ernst: It was determ ined by the committee that they ought not, and you and I and the other member s of the commi ttee unanimously supported that position, did not vote against it. There was no recor ded vote , so that the mo tion passed unanimously, and that issue has been dealt with. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know what the commit tee did, but I am wondering what the mini ster's opinion is on the qu estion in regard to authority to the City of Winnipeg to make those decisions. Mr. Ernst: I expressed my position on Friday. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to expand a little bit on the member for Cr escent wood's question about the reduction in the size of City Council. It seems to me, and we said this would occur last year, was that when you would reduc:e the size of City Council to 29 or whatever, tha t the costs-there would be no ad minis trative savings in cost, because what would happen is, when these people took their seats, they would find ways to spend more money on assistants and stuff lik e that.

That is, in fact, what we have seen happen here, that the cou ncil lor s have now su rrou nde d them�1elves with offices, expenses and salaries for staff and stuff like that. Is the mi nister aware of whether there is, in fact, any cost saving or whether this 2!}-person council is even more expensive than the previ ous one? Mr. Ernst: The counci l, Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, is 15 , not 29.

I thiink at the time, I clearly indic ated that it was never my expecta tion that there would be specific line savings from salaries, for in stance ; that taking the sa1lari es of 29 councill ors, and then comparing that to, the salaries of 15 councillors, there would be any, materi ally, net savi ng. In fact, I said on a numb t�r of occasions, I did not think there would be, and I said that publicly. I think that, if you check with your critic of the day, she will, in fact, agree that that was my position.

The expectations were that, ultimately, in the overall operations of the city, that 15 councillo rs making decisions on its operations would be more efficient and be able to deal with it on a more efficient basis. Whether that is the case or not, we all read the budget ma china tions that went on in the news media over a protracted period of time when the city was trying to reach its operating budg et wheth�r that is more or less efficient, or whether they spent more or less money than they would have i1i there were 29 councillors, your guess is as good as mine.

I still hold great expectations that they will, ultimately, be more efficient. Mr. Mnloway: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thought I had said 15 -person council, but there was so mu ch noise over here to my right that I could not hear myself at the time. I thi nk that ends the questioning that I have. Unles s; the member for Cr escentwood (Ms. Gray) has any more, I guess we could pass the Min ister's Salary and the departm ent. Mr. DE1puty Chairperson: 1. (

a) Minis ter's Salary $1 0,3 00-pass.

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4838 Resolution 20.1 : RE SOLV ED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $481 ,200 for Urban Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. Is it the will of the comm ittee to take a fiVe-minute break before we move on to Northern Affairs? Five mi nutes. The comm ittee recessed at 9:26 p.m. After Recess The comm ittee resumed at 9:32 p.m. NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This eveni ng, this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering the Estim ates of the Dep artment of Nor thern Affairs. Does the honourable Mini ster of Northern Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. James Downey (Mi nister of Northern Affairs): Yes, I do, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. Deputy Chairper son and memb ers of the comm ittee, I am pleased to introduce the Estima tes for the 19 93-94 fiscal year for the Department of Northern and Native Affai rs.

As Min ister of Northern Affairs and of Native Affairs, it has been a distinct pleasure to play an active role in the development of new in itiatives for northern and native com muni ties over the past year. Through the dedi cated efforts of staff and the department and the Native Affa irs Secretariat, we have taken ste ps to imp lemen t a numb er of pr oactive initia tives to promo te sus ta in able development of the North.

In addition, we are acc omplishing our goals to reso lve out standing issues and fo cusin g on attention on enhancing the quality of li fe enjoyed by people who live and work in our northern and native commu nities. Mr. Dep uty Cha ir pe rson , the credit for our accom plishm ents over the past year goes not only to the staff and the department but also to the northern residents and aboriginal peoples who are working with us in partnership to target and achieve our goals.

I would like to take this opportunity to extend my thank s and comm en dations to the many Man itobans whose outs tanding contri bution s, support and participation have helped to create a positive clima te for growth and change that will benefit all Manitobans. Th rough our go ve rnmen t's partnership approach, we are working to ensure that northern residents and aboriginal people have a greater voice in the institutions that serve them and greater admin istrative control over specific programs.

It is not our job as a gove rnment to ma ke arbitrary decisions about what we think Manitobans want or ne ed; rather, it is our responsibili ty to consult with a broad range of men and women from Manitoba's northern and native communities. We mu st listen carefully to their concerns and their suggestions on what we can do as a team to provide responsive programs and services to meet those needs. We have made a strong commitment to do this, and, as a result, we are seeing the successful creation, development and completion of a number of in itiatives. Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson, our efforts to ensure the lo ng-term viabi li ty and prosper ity of Manitoba's North include establishing goals that address all aspects of northern li fe. We need to promote sustainable econ omic deve lopmen t and create new jobs through diversification and growth. We must examine ways to preserve the natural beauty of the North while tapping in to the many resou rces that abound in the region. It is equally im portant to develop programs and local services that will enhance and impr ove the qua lity of life for Mani toba's northern and native residents.

Finally, we mu st address and resolve ou tstan din g issues through co-operation and consu ltation. I am pl eased to note that we are doing all these things and then some. Laying a solid foundation for the future through sustainable deve lopmen t mu st in clude targeti ng areas for economic development and diversification, as well as improvements to local infras tructure. The bottom line is that, although we continue to face dif ficult econom ic times, there are opportu nities to boost our northern economy to create more jobs and long-term prosperity.

This is wha t we need to keep Ma ni tobans and the ir children living and working in the North. Part of our

4839 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 department's efforts to target areas for economic developm en t in cl udes our ongoing ef fort to prom ote consu ltation and a uni ted vision for the future through the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Comm ission. The comm ission had a produ ctive year, and has completed its consu ltation with Manitobans. The success of the commission is based on the support of the many northern Mani toba residents who are eager to share their ideas about the di rection for the Nor th.

The com mis sio n is no w working to comple te its final report, and I look forward to its release in the next few weeks. In fact , Mr. Deputy Chairperson, these notes were written a few days ago; the commission has, in fact, provided the final report to me, and, as I in dicated, will be released to the public in the next few weeks. The department is also embarking on a number of new ini tiatives to support northern residents and en courage entre preneu rial enterprise. We are cu rrently finalizing the transition of one Cr own corp oration, Moose Lake Logg ers, to pr ivate ownership of the community.

We anticipate this transfer will ensure greater control is in the hands of the local experts who know best what the deman ds of the region are. Our department is also providing tech nical assistance to people in northern Mani toba who are in terested in establishing new busi ness ventures. This assi stance in cludes consu ltati on, funding ar range men ts and development of busin ess plans. As I men tion ed , in frastructure development is also an im portant as pect of long-term sustainable grow th.

With impr ove me nts to in frast ruc tur e , communi ties are in a better position to propose new business or ind ustry ventures for the'1r local area. One of the major in itiatives to provide infrastructure that is conducive to economic growth and impr oves the qu ali ty of li fe in remo te areas is our North Central Hydro line initiative. Native Affairs took on a leadership role in the negotiations with Canada and Mani toba Hydro and the discussions with the native com muni ties affected by this project.

As many of you know, we have signed a formal agreeme nt, and our steps ov er the past year involved establ ishing the environme ntal review panel and co mm unic ation link s with the com muni ties. Our next steps will be to examine the reports from the envir onm ental review. Subject to those repor ts and fol lowing final app roval by Ca nada and Manitoba, we will be in a position to implemen t the first stages of this project in the 19 93-94 fiscal year.

In the interes t of maxim izing resources by doing more with less and making effective use of services al read)l in place, our department has introduced three in itiatives for construc tion and main tenanc e of in fras tructure. We are dedicating $3.9 million over one and a half ye ars to su ppor t the in frastructure programs in northern communities. This capital program will provide lea d time to com mu ni ties in rem ote northern areas with a consid,erably shorter construction season. The benefit!; of this lead time include extra time for staff and commu nities to plan prior to the construction season .

They will be able to co-ordinate service deli ver v by other agencies, tender projects and acqu ire nec essary ap provals for fundin g , sub divisions and environment al gui delines well ahead of the construction date. This lead time also enables commu ni ties to arrange for material and storage,, choose a site and prepare all drawings and spEicifications so that they are ready to start as soon as the construction season beg ins. The cost-savings benefit and efficient use of staff hours make this capital program an excel len t use of resources, and we are getting better value for our inves tment.

Another way to reduce cost is to prolong the life of the in frastru ctu re thro ugh pr eve ntative ma in tenance. Our department is conti nuin g to alloc a1 te significant res ou rces to pr ovide main tenance that will extend the li fe span of provincially owned inf rastructu re, some $96 milli on in our !56 Northern Affairs com muni ties. This is being accomplished by inve sting time and money towards a pu blic works program in each co mmun it y.

We are provi ding tr aining in a prevent ative main tenance system, and we have in trod uced a system in 28 co mmun ities that provide!; dire ction and guid ance for maintaining the physical faci lities. * (21 40) Not only does the maintenance training ensure hand s-,on ex peri en ce at a local le vel to keep in frastructure in good runn in g condition, it also en sure! ; care ful safety me asures are met and reduces the risk of injuries in the public works area. While training is being main tained in some areas, dep ar tm ent staff have highligh ted ot her areas where the department could make better use of

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4840 limi ted resour ces by providing procedural manuals in place of training sessions. There are a number of manuals which have been or are in the process of being revised this year. Those include instruction manuals for preparing lo cal budgets, following Local Gove rnment Development policies and hiring and supervision policies. There is also a clerk reference manual, a ma yor and councillor manual and a fire program booklet. We have also in troduced an in itiative to assist local contractors .

In the past, bonding companies were reluctant to provide bonding to contractors on small water and sewer projects of up to $1 50,000. This prohi bited small lo cal con trac tors from un der taking projects they would otherwise be capable of handling. In order to provide these local businesses with oppor tu nities to bid on small pro je cts, the Department of Northern Affairs will now accept an irrevocable letter of credit in lieu of performance and materials bond, again a move that was taken at the request of the industry to assist smaller local operators in our northern and remote communities.

Another in itiative in progress is the esta blishment of new gamin g agreem ents through the In dian Gam ing Commi ssion polic y of the Mani toba government. In 19 90, our government introduced a new policy to address jur isdictional dispu tes between the Manitoba gove rnmen t and In dian reserves under the control of the gaming activities on reserves. In 19 92-93, we succ essfu lly negotiated Indian Gaming Commi ssion agreements with seven First Nations, namely: Sandy Bay, Mathias Colomb, Ne lson House, Crane River, Moose Lake, Fox Lake and Birdtail Sio ux.

There are cur rently 20 First Nations operating under the authority of their own gaming commis sions. The department also developed a policy with respect to video lottery term in als, and several First Nations negotiated agreemen ts with the province based on this policy. These programs and agreeme nts are integral to the sustai nable development and long-term growth of new enterprise in the North and in our native co mmu nities. I remain com mit ted to promoting thes e progra ms, and I am proud of the contributions my staff has made in these areas.

We are equally comm itted to im pro ving the qual ity of li fe en jo yed by northe rn and native residents. This includes meeting needs that go beyond employment, such as healthy environment and opportunities for recreation activities for all ages. The protecti on of our environment has become interwoven with any new development, whether it is for in frastru ctu re , im prov eme nts or economic expansion. Hence, the creation of sustainable development principles. The Department of Northern and Native Affairs strongly supports the concept of sustainable development in any new endeavour.

Furthermore, we have made a strong comm itm en t to protect our en viron ment with par ticula r empha sis on water qua lity, sewage disposal and the reduction of solid waste in our northern communi ties. A study was carried out by the department to evalua te potable water and sewage disposal in all 56 Northern Affairs communi ties. Based on these studies, our depa rtment will begin upgrading a number of water and sewage disposal systems in our northern communi ties.

We are also expl oring the poss ib il ity of developing joint facilities for water and sewage management to be sh ared by neighbouring co mmuni ties as well as consolidation of waste disposal sites. The Department of Northern Affairs is working in partnership with the Department of Environment to support a water management program involving 15 modules for wate r ope rators in northern co mmu nities. Through th is progr am, 20 water ope rators have com pleted the 13 0-hour cour se to receive their certificate in water management.

Our department will continue to su pport this training program and staff are encouraging water operators to acquire their certificat es. While I am on the topic of specializ ed training, I would like to acknowl edge and commend the 14 recreation di rectors who graduated from our pilot program last August and the four participants who received a cer tificate of achiev emen t. These individua ls provide recrea tion al services to our Northern Affairs comm unities and northern reserves.

The northern Recreation Directors' Program was introduced in Octo ber of 19 90 to address concerns raised by our northern commu nity leaders. They felt young people had too much idle time on their hands and would greatly benefit from organized, recreational activities. I want to acknowledge the

4841 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 work that was carried out as well by the Department of Cu lture , He rit age and Citize nship and my honourable colleague who was involved as well in the pilot project. We have received a very positive response from the many young people who are participating in the recreation programs in their areas. Ou r department is very pleased with the great success of this program, and we are reviewing the allocation of funds to continue the recreation dir ector ini tiative as an ongoing program. Programs such as this provide a healthy outlet for young people.

They also promote cross cultural awareness because sports and other activities transcend cultural boundaries and create a team spirit. In this way, recreation programs leave a lasting im pression and are a valuable tool in promoting youth in volvement in the communi ty for both personal and professional development. The success of the recreation programs in the North prom pted by my departmen tal staff to explore other opportu nities to get young people involved in fun activities that will teach them interpersonal skills.

We are pleased to provide incr eased funding this year to support the Northern Fly-in Sports Camps program to enable instructors to bring the popular sports camps to some of Manitoba's northern and remote communi ties. In 19 92, more than 500 children-! think this is extremely impor tant-from northern communi ties participa ted 1n this program which teaches young people leade rship skills and im proves their self-es te em throu gh social and recreat iona l activi ties. We bel ieve strongly tha t progr ams lik e this greatly en hance the qual ity of life in our northern and native communi ties.

We are also working to provide support services for aboriginal people in our province. We are now halfway through the year dedi cated to indigenous people around the world. I believe Manitobans share a desire to preserve and promote the unique culture and heritage of our pro vi nce's first peo ple. We mu st also work to resolve outsta nding issues through consult ation and im plem ent new policies and programs that support the aboriginal people and meet their needs. Over the past year we have achieved a number of important goals to recog nize and address conce•rns expressed by aboriginal people in our provi nce.

Our government introduced Canada's fir st aboriginal women's pol icy to en sur e Mani toba's aboriginal women have a venue to voice their concerns, carried out by my colleague the Mini ster responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Mitchelson ). The policy is called Speaking to the Future, and it was developed through extensive consu ltation with aboriginal women in Manitoba. The Native Affairs Secretariat does an excellent job of meeting with and assisting aboriginal groups thrOU !]hout the pro vinc e .

The secretariat also assist•9d the Kekinan Aboriginal Seniors group in plannin g for the operation of Phase 1 of the Kekinan Centre which consi sts of seniors' rental housing. My colleague the Mi nister responsible for Seni ors (Mr. Ducharme) played a very im portant role as Min ister of Housing and continues to do so as Mi nister responsible for Seniors. In addition, the secretariat helped Kekinan to comp lete an updated needs assessment of the aboriginal senio rs in Winnipeg.

Open commun ica tion and mutual under stand ing are integral in any joint init iatives, and I am proud of the proactive role the staff are playing to prom ote this kind of co mmun ication. They have helped to create an atmosphere that is conducive to harmony and co-ope•ration in our province. This has certainly benefited the ongoing Metis tri partite negotiations as well . The tri partite technical group have ma de progress in several areas. In housing, a property managemen t ini tiative has been developed and is bein g implemen ted on a phased-in basis.

In edu ca tion, there is a concep t paper, and I compliment my colleague the Minis ter of Edu cation (Mrs. Vodrey) who has taken the leadership role in this area . Education has dev elop ed a concep t paper and proposal which have been developed on the Lou is Riel In stitut e and ar e now being consid ered by both the pro vincial and federal governmen ts. Open com mun ication link s have also played an im portant

part in resolving a number of out standing issues. In par ticula r, we have parti ci pated in negotiattions with 26 Indian bands and the federal government regarding settlement of outstanding treaty land entitlements. I antici pate we will reach settl emen ts with several bands in the upcoming year.

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4842 * (215 0) We have also been actively pursuing settlements for compe nsation cl aims re lated to hydro development projects. I am pleased to say we have made signif i cant progress in completing settlements with Grand Rapids, The Pas Indian band, Easte rville, Moose Lake and Cormor ant to com pensa te them for damages resulting from hydro development in the 19 60s. We have als o ma de su bstantial progress in resolving claims settlements under the Northern Flood Agreement.

In the past year our government signed a comprehensive agreement with the Split Lake Cree First Nation to fully and finally settle Manitoba's obligations under the Northern Flood Agreement. I was fur ther deligh ted to join the federal government and Manitoba Hydro in the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding with Nelson House First Nation. By signing this agreement, all four parties made a formal comm itment to begin intens ive , determined negotiations to develop a comprehe nsive agreement to be comple ted by the fall of this year.

Last week, a Memor andum of Understanding was signed with York Factory First Nation. This Mem ora ndum of Unde rstand ing will en able negotia ti ons to pr oceed to war d reach ing comprehensive settl em ent agreement. We will also continue to negoti ate on a claim- by-claim basis with Norway House First Nation and Cross Lake First Nation, but at the same time we will con tinue to promote final and com prehensive settl emen ts as the mo st effective me ans of resolving this long-term outstanding issue. These types of agreemen ts help to ensure local bands have a greater control over local aff airs.

I believe it is important for local communi ties to have control over decision ma king that affects the ir commu nities, because they are most aware of their needs and can target their goals for the future. I am sure we all agree that having control over our own destiny is an important aspect of planning for the futu re. In creased independence in the North can be achieved through incorpor ation and block-fu nding arrangements. A printed guideline on the process of inc orporation is now bein g shared with all commu nities under the juri sdiction of The Northern Affairs Act.

This was ac compl ished in May of 19 92. As the word about incor poration and its many positive benefits spreads, there is an increasing numb er of com muni ties who are inquiring about their options under this initiative. There is also increased interest in the potential for greater local autonomy thr ough our block -fu nding arrangements. In keepin g with the ob jec tive of the Local Government Development Division to progres sively transfer authority, funds, resources and respon sibil ity to councils and comm ittees, six additional com mu nities have shown interest in entering block- funding arrangements.

With thes e pr ograms and ini tia tives, the De partm en t of No rthern and Na tive Affairs is working to promote partnerships with northern and aboriginal people and to impr ove and enhance the quali ty of li fe for the northern and native commu nities we represent. We will continue to foster new commu nication li nks in the upcoming year, and I antici pate we will witness a number of progressive and exciting achievements in 19 93-94. Mr. Deput y Chai rpe rso n, memb er s of this committee, this concludes my opening remarks for 19 93 Expenditure Estimates for the department.

In closing, I want to acknowledge and thank the citizens of Wabowden and the city of Thompson in the recent evacuation that took place with the forest fire activiti es. I am pl eased with the way in which it was handled, all the departments that were involved, but particularly acknowledge those individuals in whose home lives and commu nity the disruptions took place. They moved very co-operatively, and the com mu nity of Thompson, of course, opened their doors and their services one other time when we faced the forest fire devastation of a few years ago.

Again, I want to acknowledge and thank the support of those commun ities. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those are my opening remarks. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Mini ster of Nor thern Affa ir s (Mr. Downey) for those comments.

4843 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 Does the official opposition critic, the honour able member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), have an opening comment? Mr. George Hlck es (Point Douglas): Yes, I do, Mr. Deput y Chai rperson. Listening to the comm ents of the minister, I am very surprised there is no one in northern Mani toba that is without a job.

From the remar ks I just heard, they are doing a lot of wonderful things for every commu nity and every aboriginal person that is up there; but, sad to say, the trips I have taken, and some of the people that I have spoken to, there are a lot of people out of work in northern Manitoba. There has been some good work do ne ; I will gr ant tha t to the mi ni ste r. He has tried to acc omplis h some things, like the 14 recreation workers tha t he men ti oned.

Ye s, it is very important tha t we have adequ ate recreation programs for northerners, especially for the kids when they are out of school, because right now in the North, and you hear it from northern leader s over and over, there is a real serious problem with solvent abuse. This is one area that will help alle viate that problem, because children will be more active and more in volved and idle mi nds, hopefully, will not turn to abuse. The other thing that the mini ster did was gave $50,000 towards a contribution to the northern fly-in camp.

The Northern Fly-In Sports Camp has been ongoing for qu ite a few years. It is a wonderful program ' a nd it has ben efitted a lot of the commu nities. It does train a lot of the northerners, gives them a lot of leadership skills and works very closely with the communi ties. I hope those kinds of programs will continue getting the support of this government and the mi ni ster. The other positive events that have taken place are the set tlem ents of some of the Hy dro agreements.

The only problem I have with that is, when we were in negotiation stages and environ mental assessment hearings on Conawapa, one of the things I was hoping to hear from that was the past damages to all of the North, and I think that was one of the areas that the en vi ron men tal assessment heari ngs was going to be address ing, from my un dersta nding. If that was the case, I wish the mi nister would have continued on and finished that asses smen t, in stead of st opping halfway throug h. On the negative side, there are quite a few.

One of thEI big things that I heard the minister speaking about was team , te am, team , teamwork, co-op er ation with the com muni ty, norther n co mmu nities, co-operation with the co mm uni ty leade�rs and working closely with the communit y leaders, and I was very surprised when I saw some of the� cuts to our leadership that represents all of the re,serves in Manitoba. I am talking about the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, that got their total funding from the province cut right off. It is just like any other government or any c:ouncil .

You are elec ted by the people to repr e�sent the people, and the Asse mb ly of Mani toba Chiefs was develop ed by the chi efs to repre!�ent the chiefs who represent the communi ty. By lo!�ing that voice, I think it is a disgrace to the abori! �i nal people because that was the voice, hopefully, that was going to some day nego tiate abori9inal self-gove rnment. I was surprised that I hear d very lit tle from the min ister on aboriginal self-go vernment, because that is what the aboriginal people want, that is what the aboriginal leaders are looking forward to.

Even in the Estimates, you see un der Native Affairs Secr e·tariat , it says right in there, "Pr ovides policy development, research and plann ing, polic y analysis, federal -p rovi ncial negotia tions, in terpro vincial negotia tions, co-ordination and organizational activity ." Then, when you look further in to it, it also has a li ne where it talks about helping the aboriginal peoplE � impl em ent self-gove rnmen t.

I was very shockt�d when I saw some of the cuts that were made, because it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the su ccess of abo ri gi nal self-go vernmen t and the key to abor igina l self- go·vernment is education.

When you see the educ ation measures that have been taken, and trial and error, and you see such successful programs as thE I ACCESS programs wher e we have aborigi nal doctors, dent is ts, teacher s , social workers, and on and on, who have gradu ated with the proper support from those programs and who go back in to the North, a lot of them in to their own home communit ies to help their own peopl e. Thos:e are the kinds of programs that are key for abor ig inal se lf-go vernment.

Without those program s, it will just be the same old story where you wil l have nonaboriginal bureau crats running a system that is sup posed to be run by aboriginal

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4844 people, and once it fails-which under that system, it would be set up to fail-you will be able to hear the I told you so's. I was very disappoin ted in that. •

(2200) The other thing is, a lot of aboriginal people had really high hopes and had a lot of confidence in the mini ster, and I think that is slowly disappearing. I do not know why, beca use I hope his heart is in the right place, but when you see the massive, ma ssive cuts directly affecting aboriginal people, I wonder where the mi nister is around the cabinet ta ble, because a lot of the people whom I have spoken to believed the mi nister representing them would be the mini ster who would be standing up for the people whom the minister should be representing as a Minis ter of Northern and Native Affairs.

When you look at jobs in the North, you can go to almost any commu nity in northern Manitoba. You can take your pick of any commu nity, and there is such a high rate of u nem ployment right now. I know the economy is bad, but if there is some way of addressing that real shortage of jobs, when we ha d the pote nti al, even in the co mmu nity of Churchill, for jobs und er the spaceport program.

I think they are still waiti ng for their $70,000 that was promised by the gover nmen t, and the commitment that they wanted supp ort from this government to try and access some dollar s un der Weste rn Diversification, they got lip service, and that was the end of it. It is a real shame because northern Manitoba has so much potential, and we get so much of our resources from the No rth, and yet, today, we seem to be given very little back.

When you tal k about the remo te no rthern fisherman who are devastated right now-a lot of them are not even put ting their nets in the water-most of those are aboriginal people. For some un known reason, the freight subsidy was cut. Even their auditing service was cut. They are fighting two things, the freight subsidy cut plus the low fish prices they have to battle with. South In dian Lake is now bec omin g a grea t fishing area for whitefis h, and it has taken years to bu ild that stock back up.

Whitefish has been a source of fishing for a lo t of the no rthern co mmuni ties, and no w, there is talk of lum ping whitefish into rough fish. If that measur e is taken by this government, lum ping whitefish as rough fish, righ t off the bat, they lose 29 cents for packaging. So that would be another real im pact. The other area the min ister addressed briefly was the recreation program s. Like I mentioned earlier, those recreation programs are positive because they tie directly into the whole problem we have in northern Mani toba to do with solvent abuse.

We have been raising this issue, and we have even organized an information session by various chi efs and com mit ted individuals from northern Manitoba here, right at the Legislative Building. We are bringing petitions forward, we have been raising questions and what we hear is, it is a federal responsibility. I think, as a Minis ter of Native Affair s, the minister has to stand up and show his commitment to the aboriginal people and sit down and have a meeting with the aboriginal leaders, because they are not asking this government to go into Cross Lake and build a treatm ent centre.

What they are asking for is assistance in ways of resolving the issue that they have.

One of the areas this government could be doing and the minister could be leading, is to sit down with the northern leaders, S ydney Garrioch, for one, and his comm ittee, and arrange a meeting with the fe deral go vernmen t, as long as the provincial government is in support of a trea tment centre somewhere in the North; and supp ort the commu nity and the aboriginal people to lobby the federal government to get that established; and also, for the provinc ial gove rnmen t to look at comm itting dollars, and that could be done in per diems, because not every solvent abuser we have in northern Manitoba is treaty .

Some of them will be coming from Northern Affairs communi ties. Others will be coming from other towns. Those could be comm itted provincial dollars in lieu of per diems fo r individuals going in there. If they had that kind of a commitme nt-and even look at helping the commu nity offset some of the operating dollar s-but what they want is a meeting with the mi nister and a meeting with the federal represe ntative and with the health care givers, to try and find something that is workable before we lose more young people to this tragic problem we have in, well, I guess it is all over Manitoba.

It not only pertains to the North . The other area this government could be leading the charge and working in co-operation with native

4845 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 leaders in the North-and it does not have to come in capital dollars-is if you look at the area of Island Lake and the area pertaining to Bl oodve in, Berens Ri ver and the whole southe ast area and the number of individuals who live in those areas, there is not even one personal care home. I know past governmen ts have been to blame too, but there is always a chance to start. What it takes is a min iste r who will me et with the individuals, sit down with those in dividuals, support them when they go to Ottawa and help in those kinds of ways.

Not all help has to come in the form of dollars. If you look at the make-up of Islan d Lake, there are a lot of co mmuni ties in there, and what they say is, a lot of our elders, when they need personal care, they are taken out of the com mu nity and 99 percent of the time we never see them back home unl ess they are in a pine box. We do not get a chance to visit with our grandparents, and we never get the chance to seek their wisdom and their advice.

That would be a recommend ation I would ma ke to the mini ster is to look at-a nd I am not talking about dollars and cents here-- but it is to look at setting up a meeting with those chiefs and let them know that the government supports them in their endeavours and will do what is possible if they do not ha ve the money to lobby the federal gover nmen t to try and arrange for the federal government to at least send someone up and have a good look at some of the serious problems.

A lot of the people that are responsible for the delivery of programs a nd dollars for aboriginal people, a lot of them that make the yesses and the noes, have never ste pped foo t in a lo t of those northern co mmun ities and do not kn ow what is really happening. When you talk about effects that it has on aboriginal people, one of the biggest impacts right now on our el der s is su gar diabe tes . It is escalati ng, and it is growing at a much more rapid pace than the nonaboriginal community.

They built a home, Dial-A-Life, which is great, and what they are hoping for now is-they already have the offi ce space and they have the facilities ready-if they could put in a couple of dialysis machines. What they ar e scared of is that, once the di alysis machines are all filled up-and from what I have hear d in the past few weeks, that is happening the last on the list will be first to be transferred out of provi nce. A lot of the aboriginal people are last on the list, and that is what they are very, very worriEtd abou t.

When I talk about the comm ents that the mini ster made of teamwork, co-operation, those sound nice, and they do make a lot of sense ; but it has to be mu ch more than jus t a com mi tmen t that is on paper. Without the confidence and without the support of the aboriginal leadership, not much will really be able to be developed for the communi ty. For instance, I have a copy of a letter here from the First Nations Confederacy, and it is a letter-1 was sen t a copy and the honour able Min iste r of No rtho:trn Affairs (Mr. Downey) was sent a copy, and the Leaders of both parties were sent copies.

It was to our Premier, Gary Filmon. Thi: s is from the ch iefs of the Fir st Nations Confederacy, and if anyone figures it is only a letter from one organi zati on, I warn you tha t this organ izati on, the Fi rst Nations Confederacy, represents the following First Nations in Manitoba: You have Dauphin River Band, Fairford Band, Lake Man itoba Ban d , La ke St.

Ma rtin Band , Lit tle Saskatchewan Band, Crane River Band, Ebb and Flow Band, Gam bl ers Ba nd, Keeseekoo wenin Band , Pin e Creek Band , Rollin g Ri ver Band, Wate rhen Ban d, Sagkeeng First Nati on, Valley River Band, Waywayseecappo Band, with a total popul ation-and it says, in total, the First Nations Confederacy represents 16 ,308 aboriginal people on and off rese rve as well as any aboriginal seeking assistance in our Winnipeg office. • (221 0) In this letter it stat es: The chi efs of the First Nations Confederacy are appalled by your lack of supp o11 for the aboriginal peoples of Manitoba.

Your CIJts to the budgets of aboriginal organizations are a direct blow to aboriginal self-gov ernment. We an:� astounded that aboriginal organizations should be targeted for funding cuts during the year the Unit ed Nations has declared the Year of the World's Indigenous Peoples. Possibly, this lack of finesse results from a lack of in formation on your part. We suggest that you research in formation related to the Unit ed Nations project for 19 93 on the World's In digenous Peoples.

Ho pefu lly, the informs1tion will serve to provide a better basis for deali n!� with abor iginal Mani tobans in a mo re sensitive, positive manner.

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4846 It goes on to state, in a letter dated March 15 , by the Deput y Mini ster of North er n Aff airs, Mr. Tomasson, who state s: I would also like to point out that individual Man itoba Indian bands now have the opportunity to access new sources of revenue through their agreements with the province on gaming as well as on tobacco and gasoline taxes.

With your recent raids on Manitoba First Nations and seizur es of gamin g equipmen t, it is in conceivable that any aboriginal com mu nity in Manitoba should ever realiz e any funding from that av enue, muc h less enough fu nds to pr ovide resources to other aborigi nal organizations. There are enough statistics readily accessible from both federal and provincial government sources to prove tha t aboriginal people are the poorest people in Canada.

To suggest that aboriginal communities have the resources to fund aboriginal political or service organizations shows a callous di sregard for the aboriginal citizen s of this province by the Progre ssive Cons e rvative go vern men t of Manitoba. It goes on to list the commu nities. It also says: The funding cuts have sent a loud, clear message to Mani toba abor igin als. The Pr ogressive Conse rvative gove rnment in Manitoba does not value aboriginal people.

The current government of Man itoba is not comm itted to assis ting its ab origina l people in obtai nin g their goals and aspirations to live with the same comfor ts and degree of benefits as the rest of Mani toba. Despite our initial feelings of betrayal , indigna tion at your treatment, FNC chiefs are still willing to work with you, Mr. Filmon. That is why I think it is impor tant. I have to restate it. It is so imp ortant that the mi nister arrange meetings with aboriginal leaders and ask and work out solutions. I know the government does not have all the answers.

The aboriginal people do not have all the answers, but in co-operation, hopefu lly, some answers will come about for the betterment of aboriginal people. I did not bring this forward just to be negative. I brought it forward because it is very imp ortant to aboriginal peoples, and I think it is very im portant to this gove rnment that they look at some of the negative cuts and some of the negative results that happened from the last budget. I do not know how well thought out it was, but when you look at cuts to all the various organizations that affect directly the aboriginal people it is not very positive.

When you look at the friendship centres, right across Manitoba -it took them years and years to develop the friendship centres to where they are today. They help all aboriginal people, whether they are treaty, non-Status, Inui t, Metis. They work with all aboriginal peoples, and they provide such valuable service. They also do provide a lot of services to our elders. I hope the government, in its wisdom , will look at some of the cuts and, hopefu lly, find some ways of rei nstating some of those mea sures, because when you look at another

article from the Winnipeg Free Press-and I am sure this was riot written by an aboriginal person. The letter from the chiefs, that is an aboriginal letter, but this

article that was written by a reporter for the Winnipeg Free Press. I will just read parts of it. Statistics released last week show that for a variety of reasons Winnipeg's native popula tion has grown from 28,320 in 19 86 to 44,970 in 19 91 . It says, there are two explanations. More young natives are leaving the poverty-stricken reserves of northern Manitoba where unempl oyment is ofte n more than 90 percent.

If anybody in this room coul d imagine any co mmun ity in southern Manitoba, or even take Winnipeg, if it was 90 percent unem ployment, what would the ma yors and councils and those communi ty leaders be saying? They would be up in arms. Yet the aboriginal commu nities have to live with that year in and year out, and they are trying to overcome it, but it is such a hard battle that they need to work co-operatively with both levels of governments.

It also talks about some of the program s that have been cut, and it says, what has been the governme nt's response?- termina ting the Student Social Allowances Program, cutting off provincial funding for Indian and Metis friendship centres, many of which ease the transition from the reserves to the city. Then it goes on and talks about, where is the ur ban-aborig inal strategy? I think that is one area that I would like to address, in a short ti me, is the whole urban aboriginal strategy that we have been hearing about since I was elected.

4847 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 I do not know how much money has been spent. I do not know where it is at, but I hope when that ur ban-aboriginal strategy is developed it will be in con junc tion wit h aboriginal people, hop efully, bet we en the abor i ginal com mu ni ty and the government, that some answers could be found. It is not all doom and gloom, but the aboriginal communi ties are getting very tired and they need help. You heard that letter from the Rrst Nations Confederacy.

They are willing to work with the government, they are willing to work closely with the go vernmen t and they are willin g to work co-operatively with the govern ment. I think it is the responsibility of the mi nister to ini tiate contact with the aboriginal leader s and start getting some of these decisions that were made in the last budgets reversed, and work in co-operation to try and get some positive training programs and job opportunities for northern people. With that, Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, those are my initial remarks. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the offi cial opposition for those remarks. Does the critic from the second opposition party the honourable memb er for Cresce ntwood have any opening comments? Ms. Avis Gray (Cresce ntwood) : Mr. Deput y Chai rpers on, no, I do not have any openin g stat emen ts. I prefer to get into qu estions, but I thought that the member for Point Douglas's (Mr. Hickes) commen ts were very well spoken. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic from the second opposition for those remarks.

Unde r Man itoba pr ac tice , deba te on the Mi ni ster's Sala ry is traditi ona l ly the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceed with the consideration of the next line. At this time, we invite the mi nister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the mi nister introduce his staff present. Mr. Downey: Mr. Deputy Chair person , I have David Tomasson, who is the Deputy Minister of No rthern and Na tive Aff airs, and als o Ren e Gagnon, who is the Director of Adminis trat ion, whose office is in Thompson.

Mr. ttep uty Chai rperso n: 1. (

b) Ex ecu tive Sup pc•rt (1 ) Salaries $462,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 39 ,800-pass. 1. (

c) Financial and Adminis trative Services (1 ) SalariEIS $43 5,1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 01 ,E•OO-pass. Item 2. Local Gov ernm ent Deve lopmen t (

a) Progre1ms and Operational Supp ort (1 ) Salaries $265 , 400 -pass ;

(2) Oth er Expenditu res $93 ,6 00-pass ;

(3) Communi ty Oper ations $4 ,454,8 00-pa ss;

(4) Em ergenc y Respons e Program $48,600-pass ;

(5) Communi ty Trai ning $46,000-pass ;

(6) Regional Services $692,300- pass;

(7) Grants $258, 900-pass;

(8) Recreation Directors' Program $31 7,700-pass. 2. {

b) Thompson Region

(1) Salaries $375 ,700- pass; (:2) Other Expenditures $1 55 ,800-pass. 2.(

c) The Pas Region {1) Salaries $207 ,900- pass; (:2) Other Expenditures $1 00,1 00-pass. 2.(

d) Dauphin Region {1 ) Salaries $330 ,1 00- pass; (:�) Other Expenditures $1 08 ,700-pass. • (2220) 2.(

e) Selkirk Region (1 ) Salaries $386,700 - pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 54 ,000-pass. 2. (

f) Technical Services (1 ) Salaries $355,000- pass;

(2) Ot her Expenditures $1 05 ,700-pass. 2. (

g) Audit Ser vices

(1) Salaries $1 59,300 - pass;

(2) Ot her Expenditures $31 ,000-pass. 2.(

h) In ter-Regional Ser vices (1 ) Salaries $293,500 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $89,700 -pass. 2.(

j) Northern Affairs Fund (1 ) Salarie s $1 15 , 800- pa ss ;

(2) Ot her Expenditu res $13 ,600-pass. Resolution 19 .2: RE SOLVED that there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $9,1 59,900 for Northern Affairs, Local Government Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. Item :L Northern Development and Co-ordination (

a) Northern Development

(1) Salaries $305,500- pass;

(2) Ot her Expenditures $1 08 ,400-pass. 3 .(

b) Nor thern Flood Agreemen t {1 ) Salaries $98,200 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $26,000- pass; (:

l) Northern Flood Program $2,003 ,5 00- pass. 3. (

c) Econo mic Deve lopmen t (1 ) Salarie s $377,3 00- pass ;

(2) Oth er Expenditu res

June 28, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4848 $1 33 ,200 -pass ;

(3) Corpor ate Pr oj ec ts $250,00 0-pass. 3.(

d) Northern Manitoba Economic Development Comm ission (1 ) Salaries zero-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 20 ,000-pass. 3.(

e) Com mu nities Economic Development Fund $1 ,643,8 00-pass. Resolution 19 .3: RE SOLV ED that there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $5,065,900 for No rt hern Affa irs, No rthern Development and Co-or dination, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 94. Item 4. Native Affairs Secretariat (

a) Salaries $404, 700- pass ; (

b) Ot her Expenditu res $1 65, 700-pass ; (

c) Abori ginal Deve lopmen t Programs $772,600-pass. Resolution 19 .4 : RESOLVED that there be gra nted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,343,00 0 for No rthern Affairs, Native Affairs Secretariat, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. Item 5. Expenditu res Rela ted to Capita l (

a) Northern Com muni ties $2 ,3 79,600 -pass ; (

b) Co mmu ni ty Access and Resour ce Ro ads $235,00 0-pass. Reso lu tion 19 .5: RE SO LVED that there be gra nted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $2 ,61 4,600 for Northern Affa irs, Expenditures Rela ted to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 94. We are now going to revert back to lin e 1. (

a) Mi nister's Salary. Rule 64.(4) state s, in part, " ... such officials of the government as are requir ed by a mi ni ster may be adm itted to the Legisla tive Chamber, and shall be permitted to sit at the table placed on the floor of the House in front of the minis ter, but this rule does not apply during the debate on a minister's salary in the Com mittee of Supply." With unanimous consent at the committee, we will allo w the mi nister's staff to remain at the table during debate on his salary. Is there unanimous consent? (agreed) 1. (

a) Min ister's Salary $1 0,300. Shall the item pass? Mr. Hlck es: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the qu estion I have to the Mi nister of Native Affairs is the whole ur ban-aboriginal strat egy , as I heard has been ongoing for five years. (Mrs. Shirley Ren der, Acting Dep uty Chairperson, in the Chair) I have heard about it since I have been elected, and we keep getting promis ed every year that it will come forward. I would just lik e to ask the mini ster where he is at with the ur ban aboriginal strate gy. Mr.

Downey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, let me at the outset say to the member, who I belie ve was genuin e in his com men ts and his criticisms to date at the committee in which we are hearing the Esti ma tes of Northern and Native Affairs, I think, I say this, that it is very mu ch with heartfelt thought that he has made his presentation and, as I said at the outset, genuine in his approach to try and acc omplish without an overdose or an overinjection of polit ical-(interjection] Well, I was thinking of a little different word, Conr ad- without an overdose of political jazz, okay, barbs.

That is appropriate, but I say genuinely, I think it is helpful and it is productive for myself, as the minis ter, and for the department to hear not just negative sides, but to hear constructive criticism as it relates to the Urban Native Strategy. I guess this is one that there are not any clear answers for, and I would apprecia te some of the thoughts that the member may have as it relates to some of the potential policies, some of the things that could be acc ompli shed. We have approached it on a mul tilateral basis as it relates to the federal and city governmen ts and the province.

We have a lot of people, as he has identified the tremendous gr owth that we have seen in the city, particularly of aboriginal people moving in out of their com mu nities because-one of the reasons , when you look at some of the commu nities, parti cularly where they have not got the same amenities that there are in some of our southern com mu nities, for example, they do not have the same hydroelectric service, and that in itse lf, I th ink, wou ld encour age people not to continue to live in some of their commu nities.

So, for wh ate ver reaso ns, we have seen a tremendous exodus of our northern native people coming to our urban centres. What that does, of course, is to put pressure on those individuals who move. They certainly in a lot of cases, I am sure, do not find themselves in as a comfortable situ ation as they should have. Housing becomes a problem . The edu cation certainly becomes a concern, and at the end of the day, a job opportunity. I think that is pretty much critical for those in dividuals who want

4849 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 28, 19 93 to find a new way of life and find it necessary to move to their communi ties. Over the past few years, and I say this genuinely, we have atte mpted to try and find some of the solutions working with our native people. I have made some reference to some of the services that have been put in place,

part icularly for some of the senio rs, through the Kekinan housing -not enough, I know. We have put in place some of the supports and some smaller amounts of funding for the safe house program for the youth, su pport programs for the native women's shelter, but there seems to be an incre asing number of people that need services and need some assistance. The memb er is critical about the fact that we have reduced the supp ort for the native leadership, and I guess I have been somewhat confused over the role that the assembly feel that they would play in the urban setting.

We have not totally elimi nated the support for the Abori ginal Council of Win nipeg , they saw a reduction of some 1 0 percent like a lot of the other organizations, but we ma in tained some funding as we mai ntained some funding for the Indigenous Women , which carry out a lot of work in the city of Winnipeg. As it relates to where do we go from here, I will look for more input from the Aboriginal Council as I will look for more input from the Indigenous Women. How do we structure ourselves so we can effectively get input, provide services, and where do we get the funding?

Well, again, I go back to the comment that I put on the record , and that is we have to look at the federal government, because we have certainly a joint responsibility with a lot of the ab ori gin al people co min g to town that constitu tionally we have felt the federal government has a major responsib il ity for, as it relates to the the city of Winnipeg, certa inly have a responsibility with the province. *

(2230) We have attem pted to put together an ongoing group which I think was a little bit ambitious in its requests. That is why I have, quit e frankly, taken the route of trying to, through the lim ited means that we ha ve wit h our de partm en t, some of the programs that we have encou raged to be put in place, and I have mentioned a few of them . The answers do not come easy, and I lo ok for member's input, like the member for Point Douglas (M

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-91b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 91b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	29b0a18c29d07edd64cff9e77dd46c3de46ebea9

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