May 7,

Government Services Committee

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Darryl Kelly, MHA for Humber Valley, replaces

Clayton Forsey, MHA for Exploits.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Terry Loder, MHA for Bay of Islands, replaces

John Dinn, MHA for Kilbride.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Bob Ridgley, MHA for St. John's North,

replaces Elizabeth Marshall, MHA for Topsail.

The Committee met at approximately 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly

Chamber.

CHAIR (Mr. French): Good morning, folks.

First of all, thank you very much for coming. It is my first time chairing an

Estimates meeting, so bear with me. I will try to make sure I follow the proper

protocols.

The first thing we have to do this morning is the Clerk has to call for

nominations for Chair and then for Deputy Chair.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I call for Deputy Chair? There you go, my first mistake already

this morning.

We will start off by calling for nominations.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Nominations for Chair?

MR. BUTLER: I move that the Member for Conception Bay South be Chair of

the Committee.

CLERK: All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CLERK: Contra-minded, nay'.

Carried.

CHAIR: I wish the general election was that easy.

I now call for nominations for Vice-Chair.

MS MICHAEL: I nominate Roland Butler for Vice-Chair.

CHAIR: All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

The Clerk has to call the first subhead and then we will ask the minister -

no, maybe we will start with the Committee first. Can everybody introduce

themselves by name and district? Then, once that is complete, we will ask the

minister to have a few words and introduce her staff.

In the meantime, there is a protocol that says the first speaker has fifteen

minutes, the first questions are fifteen minutes, and then we follow up with ten

and ten and ten. That is certainly up to the Committee. Whatever process they

would like to follow is good with me. So, we will do the first round for fifteen

minutes and then we will go ten and ten, if that is okay with everyone.

Okay, so I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. carry?

Now we will introduce everybody, please. We will start with Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, Member for the District of Port de Grave.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. LOVELESS: Elvis Loveless, Research Staff in the Opposition Office.

MR. KELLY: Darryl Kelly, District of Humber Valley.

MR. LODER: Terry Loder, District of Bay of Islands.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, St. John's East.

MR. RIDGLEY: Bob Ridgley, St. John's North, filling in for Beth Marshall.

CHAIR: I now call on the minister to bring greetings and then introduce

her staff.

MS WHALEN: I think first I am going to introduce the staff.

If you would all introduce yourselves, your titles and your names, for the

Committee, please.

MR. SMART: Bob Smart, Deputy Minister.

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate and

Strategic Services.

MR. ALEXANDER: Paul Alexander, Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine

Services.

MR. SALTER: Dave Salter, Director of Communications.

MR. ANTLE: Kevin Antle, Director of Financial Operations.

MR. MERCER: Cluney Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister, Transportation.

MS WHALEN: Okay.

I wanted just to have a few remarks, and it is going to be very short. I

would like to start off this morning by saying that we are going to go over some

of the major Transportation and Works highlights in Budget 2008 a Budget we

are very, very proud of.

First of all, as I am sure you are all aware, in Budget 2008, this government

will invest a record $73 million in the Provincial Roads Improvement Program.

When cost-shared the projects are factored in, it is an unprecedented $182

million that will be spent on provincial roads.

Some of the specific road highlights in this budget include: $33.8 million to

upgrade the Trans-Canada Highway and other National Highway System roads, which

is cost-shared with the federal government; $45 million for widening and

hard-surfacing Phase I of the Trans-Labrador Highway, which is also cost-shared

with the federal government. This construction season we will be widening 100

kilometres of each end of Phase I and hard-surface 30 kilometres; $70 million

for ongoing construction of Phase III of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

In our Marine Branch, in Budget 2008 this government will invest $33.9

million to start construction of two new ferries in this Province.

In Budget 2008, this government will invest $9.5 million for maintenance and

alterations of public buildings.

Finally, we will invest $30 million to begin the replacement of the older

water bombers in the provincial fleet, and $8 million for the purchase of a new

air ambulance.

These are some of the highlights of the Transportation and Works budget, and

I know that you all know that it has been a great budget. There are lot of

initiatives in this Budget 2008 that we are certainly proud of.

I am going to begin by asking the Committee this morning for any questions

that they might have for our team here this morning.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Just before we start, I am told from previous experience that if anybody else

besides the minister responds to a question, would they kindly say their name

before they start?

I guess we will start off with the Member for Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To begin, I want to welcome the minister and your staff. I guess we can't

look over at you and say what you just said, that it is a tremendous budget for

your department we can't argue that point, no doubt about it - however, we do

have some questions.

I guess we will be doing some of the one-liners and then some general

questions, if that is okay, Minister.

MS WHALEN: That is fine.

MR. BUTLER: The first one that I have is

MS MICHAEL: Just one point (inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I am sorry.

MS MICHAEL: Mr. Chair, yesterday we had the timers going, which really

helped. Are we going to have them today? I notice it has not started.

CHAIR: We certainly can, if you prefer, but I have actually just recorded

9:09, so if you want but I can intercede or we can start it.

MS MICHAEL: It does not matter. I just wanted clarification.

CHAIR: Okay.

MS MICHAEL: We have to do it ourselves, then, because we do need to

monitor ourselves.

CHAIR: We have the clocks; we might as well use them, right?

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

CHAIR: They are big enough; we should be able to see them.

MS MICHAEL: We need that.

MR. BUTLER: I had better get going; it has started.

My first question, Minister, to you or your staff, is under 1.2.02.,

Administrative Support, under subheading 01., Salaries. Last year there was a

decrease in salaries of $135,900 and I was wondering how many jobs we were

talking about there, and in this year's Estimates it shows an increase of

$139,400, bringing it up to $1.1 million. I was wondering how many new employees

were hired, and probably what positions they were and so on.

MS WHALEN: In 01., Salaries, the projected revised increase due to

severance payment is that the line that you are looking at?

CHAIR: What subhead was it?

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 1.2.02.01, Salaries.

MS WHALEN: That is pertaining to the projected revised decrease due to

savings from vacant positions during the fiscal year, and in 2008-2009 the

budget increased due to step increases.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under the same heading, 06., Purchased Services, last year there was spent an

extra $220,700 for a total of $445,000. I was wondering if you would just give

us an outline, I guess, on what was received for that amount and why was the

increase there?

MS WHALEN: That was Purchased Services, 2007-2008, and it was a projected

revised increase due to the increased departmental advertising costs for job

competitions.

MR. BUTLER: So that would have been the $200,000?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: It would have been all for that reason?

Under the same heading 02 I am sorry, it is under the same heading but it

is not the 02. Employee Benefits; it is Revenue Provincial - I know it was

budgeted $500,000 as provincial revenue last year but only received $285,000.

I was just wondering: Where does that money come from? I guess the same

question is for the $500,000 again this year. What makes up that revenue?

MS WHALEN: I will ask Kevin to answer that one.

MR. ANTLE: The revenue there is more of a general sort of catch-all sort

of account, so it is a little bit of everything. That can vary from year to year

depending on what is on the go.

MR. BUTLER: So you just budget, like, the $500,000 for this year?

MR. ANTLE: In general, but it could be $300,000, it could be $200,000, it

could be $150,000 depending on what is out there. It is like that is where it

ultimately ends up. It is not actually earmarked for any other specific account.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under heading 1.2.03.03., Transportation and Communications, last year there

was an increase of $152,900 for a total of $192,700. I was just wondering why

the increase, and if you could provide the details on the travel and

communications for that amount spent.

MS WHALEN: That was a projected revised increase due to the increased

costs related to the relocation of our employees. Some employees had to

relocate.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Probably I will go to a couple of general questions now, not under any

subheadings, if that is okay, Minister?

MS WHALEN: Sure.

MR. BUTLER: What percentage of the roadwork that has been announced this

year has gone to tender? I guess, in particular, I am asking that question about

the new bridge that is supposed to go in on Highway 70 there in Spaniard's Bay

and Bay Roberts. I was just wondering, has that gone to tender, or has much of

the work gone to tender to date?

MS WHALEN: I am going to ask my ADM to answer that question.

Cluney?

MR. MERCER: I don't know the exact number, but I can tell you that we

probably have about 60 per cent of the overall roads program either tendered or

awarded at this point in time. Our objective this year is to have all, or as

close as we can to all, of the roads program tendered by the end of May. We are

well on target for that, I think.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

I guess that would include the tenders for the Trans-Labrador Highway as well

as here on the Island portion?

MS WHALEN: They are done.

MR. BUTLER: They are done.

Have there been any closures of any government buildings in the past year to

achieve savings or anything through your department, or any other buildings, I

guess, that are administered through your department?

MS WHALEN: None that I am aware of.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I know we hear about this issue from time to time in the media. I was just

wondering, what is the current status of the new ferries? When will the tenders

be called, or have they been called?

MS WHALEN: We are into negotiations right now with the new ferries. We

are still on target to have new ferries built in 2009, the fall of 2009. We have

a targeted date for the construction of the ferries to be completed, and they

will be done in the Province.

MR. BUTLER: That was one of my next questions.

Could you explain where those new ferries may be going at this time, or has

that been decided?

MS WHALEN: We have not made a decision on where they are actually going

to be located.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Another question I have here is with regard to the Long Island ferry system.

I know there were presentations and meetings back and forth with the committee,

and here in town. I was wondering, what is the status on that now, and has it

been determined I guess in the past it was, but - what is the difference in

the cost of a ferry versus the causeway? I know those people have some concerns

and they met with you people, and I think they had a good meeting, but I was

just wondering, has anything else developed since then?

MS WHALEN: Yes, I have met with the committee in Long Island and we had

some discussion and they had presented me with some information. That is the

file that I am still working on. The decision has not been made one way or the

other, if it is going to be a causeway versus a ferry, but I have made a

commitment to the people in Long Island that when I make that decision I will be

travelling there to tell them what the decision is.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I know this is another issue that came up back some

time ago, and I guess it was when the smoking ban came on the ferries that are

in existence now. The new ferries, will they have a means where people who are

disabled can get up to the other deck,

whereas we don't have that in place now

and someone has to stay with them, more or less? Will that be accommodated on

the new ferry system? The new boats, I should say.

MS WHALEN: Unfortunately, our old fleet did not have that accommodation

of an elevator. There are some there are seven, actually that have

elevators, but there are four that do not. In the new design, we will indeed be

doing a design that the handicapped will be able to be accommodated on our

ferries.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, there are some communities that require ferries to

accommodate the fish plants in their respective communities. Are there any

examples of new ferries being built to accommodate the operation of those fish

plants? I know there is an issue that came up on several occasions about that

and I was just wondering, is that something that has been looked at?

MS WHALEN: That transportation mode will still be in existence for our

fish plants, with our ferries. Operations are not going to change; they are not

subject to change in regard to that issue.

MR. BUTLER: Just a general question, back to the ferry service. Those who

have various disabilities could not get up to the floor where everyone has to

move now, and get out of their car. I was just wondering, has it caused any

problems or anything? I agree with you, what you did there in regards to people

not staying in their cars, but I am just wondering, has it caused any problems

throughout the system or -

MS WHALEN: No, I have actually had good feedback that they are complying

with the regulation as put in place. The disabled community was fine with it

when I explained to them what we had tried to do to make sure that the disabled

could be accommodated on our ferries. No, we -

MR. BUTLER: So it has not caused any problems or anything (inaudible)?

MS WHALEN: No, not that I am aware of.

MR. BUTLER: The other thing, minister and this is probably a bit into

the future I was just wondering, has your department considered, when the time

comes to construct ferries in the future, have they ever thought about a

roll-on, roll-off ferry service for the South Coast that would include such

communities as Pool's Cove, Rencontre East and Bay L'Argent and that particular

area?

MS WHALEN: Well, right now that service is provided by a contract. It is

contracted out. That is not an issue that I have had discussion on recently.

MR. BUTLER: The issue I know in the budget, I think there were six

water bombers mentioned in the budget?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I was just wondering, where will those new water bombers be

purchased from? I guess they were new planes, not used, we will say, and I think

it was six that was to be purchased, wasn't it?

MS WHALEN: Yes. Actually, we are purchasing six, but we are in

negotiations right now with Bombardier - they are the people who build those

planes that we are looking for. So it has not concluded yet, but we are in the

process of going to be purchasing six water bombers. Our fleet right now is over

thirty years old.

MR. BUTLER: I know this has been a hot topic for a few years now; it is

the closure of the various depots when the summer season starts. I was just

wondering, are there any plans to keep any of those open this year or will they

be all closed as in previous years?

MS WHALEN: The summer maintenance is the same as previous years, that we

will have the depots open to do our summer maintenance. In fact, this year with

our winter maintenance we had our crews on two weeks earlier and we laid them

off two weeks later in the process of laying them off two weeks later and

the summer maintenance will start and continue on.

MR. BUTLER: I guess why I brought that up, because from time to time you

hear from people in different areas, and it seems like when those depots close

down and there are workers not in the different areas as in the wintertime, a

lot of people think that - and I will just use an example, like the main depot

in Bay Roberts, and the one in Avondale is closed, and probably another one down

on the Trinity Bay, Conception Bay side. People think that they are not getting

the same maintenance care of the roads, or ditching in the summertime because it

is so spread out and the people are not in the areas like they are when they are

doing the winter maintenance.

I was just wondering, because I know some of the people have called me and I

think they are receiving their layoffs fairly soon. I was just wondering, have

you heard how many of them may not be staying I know some of them stayed on

last year but a lot of them are saying this year, once we receive our layoff

slips, we are just going to move on. Hopefully, they will come back in the

winter, but I was just wondering, have you heard that much throughout the system

about that?

MS WHALEN: No, there is not going to be any change in our summer

maintenance. The reason we did that with the depots, as you referred to earlier,

was because in 2003-2004 we had workers there with no materials, so we had to

have a one-versus-one split with materials and workers. That has been rectified

now and we have put substantial dollars in our summer maintenance program. Our

summer maintenance is going to continue on as usual.

MR. BUTLER: How many seasonal or part-time employees does the department

actually have?

MS WHALEN: At a peak time, it is about 1,800.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, has there been any new contracting out of various

jobs in the last year within the department? I know from time to time we hear

people say, I think this is going to be contracted out, that is going to be

contracted out.

MS WHALEN: No, we have not had any contracting out with workers.

MR. BUTLER: And there has not been any cut in jobs within the department

over the last year?

MS WHALEN: No, there have not been any layoffs.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MS WHALEN: Other than the usual, the winter maintenance people were laid

off.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I guess this will be my last no, maybe I will get a

couple in, looking at the clock.

Minister, when it comes to the new branding, I was wondering, what cost has

been incurred or will be incurred by your department because of the new branding

announced by government?

MS WHALEN: It will be about a couple hundred thousand in signage that our

department will spend on the branding.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. I guess, just a round figure, I was wondering, how much

does your department spend, say, in advertising throughout the year for all

aspects of advertising? Just an approximate.

MS WHALEN: I will refer that one to Kevin.

MR. ANTLE: I could not tell you right off. That is something that I

guess I could get that information and get it back to you.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, that's fair.

One last question: What percentage of your entire budget is actually money

that is transferred from the federal government?

MS WHALEN: Are you talking about our cost-shared arrangements? Is that

what you are talking about?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. What would the amount, do you think, the portion that

would be federal?

If you do not have some of those answers today that is fine.

MS WHALEN: No, I do not have that figure readily available to you but I

think it is in the vicinity of $50 million. I can certainly get the information

if you wish.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Butler.

I will now refer to the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I am going to ask a few broader questions first and then I will do

some line by line, the boring line by line stuff. Some of this is for my own

information, stuff I want to be clear on.

In 2.2.01. and then 2.2.03., we are talking about Building Maintenance. Head

2.2.01. talks about the properties which the department operates on behalf of

all government departments, and 2.2.03. is the maintenance of government-owned

buildings. Just for my own clarity, could I get an idea, in both heads, what we

are talking about? In 2.2.01. I am assuming all of the Confederation Building

and then any other place that would be - a building that would be determined to

be a department building. Would that be correct?

MS WHALEN: What line are you referring to?

MS MICHAEL: 2.2.01., and I am wondering, when it says that this covers

the maintenance, operations, accommodations of buildings which the department

operates on behalf of all government departments. I just want to get an idea of

what is covered under that. I am assuming all of the Confederation Building,

anywhere where departments operate outside. What else would be covered under

2.2.01.?

MS WHALEN: I am going to refer that question to the deputy minister.

MR. SMART: That would include, yes, Confederation Building, Sir Richard

Squires Building, all government buildings, but it would not include schools,

hospitals, nursing homes and those types of facilities that would fall under

other boards and agencies and so on. They are direct, government-operated

buildings - the RNC building is another one - ones that we, as a government,

operate directly ourselves as opposed to a school board or a health care board

and so on.

MS MICHAEL: Then I would assume they are the buildings that are covered

under 2.2.03.?

MR. SMART: That is right, the same buildings.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. That is the clarification I wanted on that.

I then would like to raise a question, which would not come out in a line,

that is why I want to raise the question. You and I have had some discussions on

the issue but I would like to raise it here now. That is with regard to the

maintenance, particularly of the Confederation Building. I do not know what it

is like for other departments that operate outside of the Confederation

Building. I am looking at the facilities that are covered under head 2.2.01.

I am wondering, when did the maintenance of this building - the daily

cleaning of the building is the maintenance I am talking about, the daily

maintenance of the building, the cleaning of it. When did that become contracted

out and what was the rationale for contracting out that service, because it just

does not make sense to me that it is contracted out? I would like to know some

history about that.

MS WHALEN: Well, I know that since I came in 2003 it was contracted out

but I think it was many years before I came in provincial government that it was

contracted out. I do not know what the rationale was for it but at one point I

think they had their own cleaners. A previous Administration decided to contract

out and I do not know - I cannot answer what that rationale would have been.

MS MICHAEL: My own sense is it probably was maybe a few years before

2003, but not that much before 2003. That is my sense, because I know some of my

staff remember when it was not contracted out.

I am wondering if there has ever been any discussion in the department with

regard to bringing that service back in under the full direction of the

government? Right now, my observation is it is an inferior service on a number

of levels. Has there been any discussion around that? I do know that the floor

on which the Premier's office is, on the executive floor for the Premier, that

floor does have a government employee doing the work and that person is

dedicated to that floor. Has there been any discussion inside the department

with regard to bringing that service back in under the government employ?

MS WHALEN: No, we have not had any discussion on that particular issue. I

will say that we do have a new contractor right now that has taken the contract

over for this building. You and I have had a discussion that I guess we will

need to be talking to the supervisor or whoever is in charge of that cleaning

company to make sure that issues of cleaning are done properly on our floors.

MS MICHAEL: I would like to just put out one more concern then, because I

think this is the time to do it formally, is that I do know that the number of

employees dropped with the new contract. I am aware of the fact that the

employees are severely stretched.

Just to give one example that you are aware of, minister, that you and I

talked about over the last few days, on the fifth floor we just went through

three full working days of having strewn paper all over the hallways from a bag

that broke last Friday. Finally, some time last night it got cleaned up. This

morning it is finally cleaned up, but three full working days with that. The

reason is because the staff have certain areas assigned to them. They can only

clean those areas. The vacuum cleaner is on our floor one day a week and I am

assuming that it took a special order to get that vacuum cleaner back up to the

floor to get the floor cleaned. It just does not seem good enough for a

government building to be not serviced well when it comes to keeping the

building clean. That is why I am asking these questions.

MS WHALEN: Yes. Well, you did make me aware of it and I did bring it to

the attention of my deputy minister who, I guess, got it straightened away for

you, but common sense would tell you though that if you are shredding paper that

you do not streel it all over the floor. Someone should have actually had the

good common sense to take a vacuum cleaner and go back and clean that up.

Unfortunately, that did not happen, but I thank you for letting me know that it

has now been taken care of.

MS MICHAEL: Right, and I appreciate the work that you did, but my concern

is if this were to continue because of the present contract not having enough

workers in the building, I think it is an issue that the department needs to

look at. So, I put it out there.

MS WHALEN: We certainly will be monitoring our cleaning contract.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you, and thank you for taking care of that issue.

I know your deputy minister did, but you would not want to have to be doing that

every week as deputy minister or as minister either.

MS WHALEN: No, we do not have the time actually with the work on our

hands.

MS MICHAEL: Exactly.

I have a couple of other general things. That took longer than I expected,

but I will ask this one because it is not just a line by line.

With regard to the Trans-Labrador Highway, and I think you did say in your

opening that there will be widening and paving -

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: - does that include the stretch between Happy Valley-Goose

Bay and Labrador West?

MS WHALEN: We are doing widening on both ends, 100 kilometres, and we are

doing thirty kilometres of asphalt. That is the tender that we have called for.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. So thirty kilometers of asphalt and widening on both

ends. Where is the asphalt starting, on which end?

MS WHALEN: The asphalt will be on the Goose Bay end.

MS MICHAEL: Is there a commitment now from the federal government with

regard to that piece of the highway because I know that had not been confirmed

yet?

MS WHALEN: No, at one point the feds has not cost-shared with us. We went

alone and invested $15 million, but since that time they have now come on board

with us and we are doing a 50-50 cost-shared agreement.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

So this

section that I did see on the Trans-Labrador Highway, with the

federal contribution, now includes also this part of the highway, so you do have

that in place now?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is correct.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

What is the future of that, then? For how many years is that going to

continue? Because, if we are only getting thirty kilometres of that part of the

highway done this year, what will happen next year? How long is it going to take

for that highway to be finished, that stretch of the highway to be finished?

MS WHALEN: It will probably be about three to four years. Phase I is

scheduled to be completed in 2009.

MS MICHAEL: In 2009.

Phase I is the thirty kilometres and the widening, I take it.

MS WHALEN: Phase I is to complete the road, right?

MS MICHAEL: Okay, the work that has begun, so you will have that finished

by 2009.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: In this budget you do hope to have some of the asphalt done,

the thirty kilometres.

MS WHALEN: Yes, we have actually called tenders for it.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Let me start some line by line. I will do a quick one first, just

clarification on one of the answers that you gave Mr. Butler, and it was for

head 1.2.02., Administrative Support. In his question with regard to Purchased

Services

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: Under 1.2.02.

Sorry, I am bringing you back.

MS WHALEN: Okay, it is 1.2.02?

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MS WHALEN: All right.

MS MICHAEL:

Section 06, Purchased Services. There was a differential in

last year's budget, between the budget and the revised, of $220,000. You pointed

out that was for, I think, advertising, communications around hiring. That seems

like an awfully high amount of money for that. Is that all that that

differential would have been?

MS WHALEN: Well, we had an increase for the advertising costs for job

competitions, but I will refer to Kevin, if you could give us some details on

that?

MR. ANTLE: The biggest increase there is that we were required to

advertise not only in The Telegram, the Independent , and the local

paper, but there are other papers in addition to that and our advertising costs

are $3,500 per ad. So that is, for the most part, what that increase is all

about; however, in the current year we are showing similar to 2007-2008, because

even though we looked for the additional funding it was not approved in our

budget. That was a decision made by the PSC.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much. I think my time is up for the moment.

OFFICIAL: You can carry on if you want.

MS MICHAEL: No, that is okay.

CHAIR: Okay, I will refer back to Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, Sir, thank you.

If I ask a question that has already been asked - because I wasn't paying

attention to the headings sometimes - just say that has been answered and I will

carry on.

Under 1.2.04., Policy Development and Planning, under item 10., Grants and

Subsidies, I was wondering if you could provide a list of who receives the

grants and subsidies that are listed there. I think the budget this year was

$149,000. What does that include?

MS WHALEN: The grant for 2007-2008: the Transportation Association of

Canada is a $30,000 grant; the HUB paratransit operating grant is $94,500; Stats

Canada census tabulation is $4,500; and, miscellaneous is $20,000.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under 1.2.06.05., Professional Services, I notice that last year there were

zero dollars budgeted for Professional Services but $710,000 was spent. I was

just wondering I suppose it is a stupid question - where did the money come

from? We generally know where it comes from, but where it wasn't budgeted and it

is quite a large figure and there is nothing budgeted again this year. I was

wondering if you could explain that one, please.

MS WHALEN: Okay.

The answer to that one is, that is a projected revised reflection of

consultant payments due to the GIS project, the Geographic Information System.

MR. BUTLER: The GIS, could we have an explanation on that?

MS WHALEN: I will refer that one to the DM.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. SMART: The Geographic Information System that we are developing in

the department is a computer-based system that will plot all of our roads, all

of our bridges, all of our signs; everything is plotted on maps in a

computerized Geographic Information System. What is, it is a transportation

planning tool.

We will be able to, at our fingertips, look at the condition and the details

and so on, on any stretch of highway or bridge in the Province, so it is

something that we have been developing to assist us in planning future

transportation programs.

MR. BUTLER: It seemed like a lot of money in the beginning, but it is

money well spent, I would say, once you get the explanation.

MR. SMART: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same heading, item 1.2.06., Purchased Services,

last year you budgeted $1.587 million but spent $202,000, for a difference of

almost $1.4 million. I was wondering if you could explain the difference in what

was budgeted and what was actually spent there.

MS WHALEN: The revised decrease was due to the reduced insurance

deductible claims and the transfer of our GIS funding to the professional

services.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MS WHALEN: That was a reduction of $587,400.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, and you are budgeting this year $1 million.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same heading again, down under 01., Revenue

Federal, I know I asked the question just now, but last year you received some

revenue in the amount of $382,500 and this year there is nothing under the

Estimates there. I was just wondering if you could explain that for me.

MS WHALEN: Our projected revised increase was due to the late receipt of

the 2006-2007 claim for our GIS project, which was cost-shared with the federal

government.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Heading 2.1.01., Administration and Support Services, under item 03.,

Transportation and Communications, I know it is a hefty bill, no doubt about

that, at any given time, and I am sure there is an explanation, but the

$1,215,000 last year, I was wondering if you could provide a list of the travel

or communications that your department received last year for this amount.

MS WHALEN: I don't have a list here with me, but I certainly can table a

list for you.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, that is fine.

Under 2.1.02. wait now 2.1.02., yes, the Sign Shop.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I notice the figures there, and in a previous question when I

asked about the branding I know you mentioned the cost would be $200,000. Would

that be involved in any of those estimates that are there for this year? I am

wondering where, because it doesn't seem like there is that much difference from

the previous year, or would they be even listed under the headings under the

Sign Shop? I take it probably the signs were going to be done in your own sign

shop, and I was wondering about the $200,000 that you said they would cost,

right?

MS WHALEN: Yes, okay (inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: Because the figures that are there are fairly I don't see

one up $200,000 this year, and maybe it is not listed under what I am thinking.

MS WHALEN: All right, I will refer that one to the DM for an explanation.

MR. SMART: In our 2007-2008, we would have had provision for the branding

initiative and signs and so on, but this also covers signs for every stretch of

highway in the Province and every building in the Province. So, while we backed

off on the branding initiative because we have basically achieved that, given

the inflation and the cost of paint and our requirement to put more signs -

speed signs and so on - it is just sort of an offset.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Heading 2.1.03., Maintenance and Repairs, under 01., Salaries, I notice under

this heading there was an increase in Salaries of $839,700, I think, the total

being almost $8.3 million in last year's Estimates. I was just wondering: How

many jobs did that entail for that increase there, or what jobs they were, I

should say, I guess.

MS WHALEN: I am going to refer that to Assistant Deputy Minister Cluney

to answer.

MR. MERCER: The increase from budgeted to revised in 2007-2008 is

reflective of three primary things. In our summer maintenance program we

aspired, back in 2005, when it was associated with the closure of thirteen

depots, to have a certain mix of laborers and operators. After working a year or

a year-and-a-half with that ratio we felt that, to achieve better efficiency, it

would be better to have a few more staff in some of our smaller depots where we

only had six people. We felt that needed to be tweaked a little bit so there

were a couple of individuals, staff, added there. The totals all together, I

believe, amounted to sixteen full-time equivalent positions in summer

maintenance.

The other part of the variation is associated with some overtime costs. A big

part of that would have been associated with the Chantal storm last year that

our maintenance crews worked feverishly to restore roads after we were hit by

the storm.

It also reflects severance costs. Our workers are getting older. A lot more

of our workers are retiring, and with that comes severance.

MR. BUTLER: I guess that is why we see a decrease of $562,000 this year.

I guess that was the overload through the storm last year; not that people are

actually being laid off this year, but it is

MR. MERCER: No, it is status quo in terms of summer maintenance for this

year.

MR. BUTLER: Just a general question while we are on that topic - and I am

looking at the clock again - I know from time to time it is very difficult to

get people in the various trades, not only within your department, in all

departments, and even in the general community. I know that there were calls

that went out for mechanics in different areas; and, there being a shortage of

mechanics, I think some people had to be hired with the background of auto

repair people. I am just wondering, is that all I think what it is, is not

because they don't want to work with a department; I think the trip out west,

the big bucks they are seeing out there, is drawing people from everywhere. I

was just wondering, do you see much of that within your department of the

various trades, whether they are labourers, because I know they had to hire auto

mechanics to fill the positions of the regular mechanic that you would have

working on the vehicles that your department entails.

MS WHALEN: We have actually brought in our apprenticeship program and it

is doing quite well, so we are not experiencing any problems there now.

MR. BUTLER: No problems?

MS WHALEN: No.

MR. BUTLER: But you did have to take some auto repair people; is that

correct?

MS WHALEN: Auto repair we did, with heavy equipment training.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

It is all yours again.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

I will give you a break, Mr. Butler.

I will not go over the things that Mr. Butler has asked I have a number of

them that are the same - but there are a couple of things under the same heads

that I want to ask, that he did not ask.

Subhead 1.2.06.

MS WHALEN: Subhead 1.2.06?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, we have to back up again, I am sorry.

Under subhead 1.2.06., I didn't get the answer clearly, maybe is what it is,

because you had budgeted under Purchased Services, 06., the money did not get

spent that had been anticipated, but we are back up to $1 million again in this

budget under Purchased Services. Was that just money that was deferred that did

not get used last year, or is this a new item that the $1 million is for under

Purchased Services, or new items?

MS WHALEN: What we did was, we moved it up from Purchased Services to

Professional Services, that $710,000.

MS MICHAEL: Then, this year, it is still $1 million budgeted again. May I

have a breakdown of what that $1 million under Purchased Services is for this

year? Is this continued expenditure with regard to the GIS, or is there more

involved?

MS WHALEN: I will have to get that for you, because I don't have that

information available here this morning.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much.

Subhead 2.1.01.06., again Purchased Services, the Purchased Services this

year are up by just over $500,000. Again, what is the explanation for that big

jump in Purchased Services under Administration and Support Services?

MS WHALEN: It was up because of our GIS, and this year Purchased Services

decreased to a lower purchase service cost this year.

MS MICHAEL: That is GIS also, under 2.1.01?

MS WHALEN: The RWIS; that is our Road Weather Information Systems.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, but it is a big jump from $500,000. Are you adding new

services in there this year? Yes. I see the DM nodding.

MS WHALEN: Yes, we are actually adding new cameras on our highways this

year.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much; that is helpful.

Under 2.1.02., the Sign Shop, could I have an explanation of the provincial

revenue? What is that referring to there?

MS WHALEN: I will refer that to Kevin.

MR. ANTLE: Actually, what that is, is revenue from the sale of our signs.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, of course.

Which signs would be sold? I am just curious, because you are not selling

road signs. What are the signs that would be sold under this?

MS WHALEN: That would be the construction signs for the contractors that

are doing work.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Let me see, 2.2.01., I think maybe I have answered the questions that I want

answered under that. I am just wondering, though, under 2.2.01, that is

Administration, subheading 06., Purchased Services, what would the purchased

services be there?

MS WHALEN: That would be decreased due to the reduced training cost for

staff, that particular line.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great. Thank you.

Under 2.2.02., this says special engineering projects, maintenance programs,

tendering and contracts; again, subsection 06, Purchased Services.

MS WHALEN: That was increased due to higher advertising and printing

costs for the tendering and the contracts.

MS MICHAEL: In this budget it is going up by about half a million yes,

about $500,000 - so what are the anticipated increased expenses?

MS WHALEN: We would be having a bigger program.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, a bigger program with regard to technical support?

MS WHALEN: Road tenders. We will be spending $73 million in roadwork,

which is unprecedented, so it means a lot of tenders will be going out.

Actually, there are forty-eight districts covered.

MS MICHAEL: Great. Thank you.

Under 2.2.03., I think I have asked my question on that; except, in 2.2.03.,

what would be the reason for provincial revenue under this head? What is that

referring to? This is the appropriations for the utility, maintenance and

operating costs of the government-owned buildings. Is this rent that you get

from the agencies? That is one of my guesses. That may be a wrong guess.

MS WHALEN: I am going to defer that to Kevin.

MS MICHAEL: Under 2.2.03., subhead 02., what is that provincial revenue?

MR. ANTLE: Revenue from the rental of government buildings, (inaudible)

steam heat and other miscellaneous revenue.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

The rental was a guess, so I was right on that one, and then the steam heat,

et cetera. Thank you very much.

Under 2.2.04.03., Transportation and Communications, there was a big jump

last year between what was budgeted, $48,000, and the revision, what was

actually spent, $108,000. What was the reason for that?

MS WHALEN: That increase was due to the increased moving costs related to

leasing office space.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Under 2.2.06., nothing had been budgeted for acquisitions but there was a

$950,000 expenditure. What was that acquisition?

MS WHALEN: That was the Liquor Corporation Building on Elizabeth Avenue

that we bought.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Under 2.3.01.06., Purchased Services, again there was an amount budgeted,

about $700,000 less was spent, and now the same amount is budgeted again. Can I

just have some explanation of what the purchased services are there?

MS WHALEN: That is the projected revised decrease due to savings on our

vehicle fleet insurance policy with the taxes gone of 15 per cent; there is a

savings for us.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

I should know this question. I will be quite honest; I tried to get the

answer before I came this morning and didn't have it, so I will ask the

question. I won't pretend I know the answer, because I don't. With regard to the

government vehicle fleet, do we have any vehicles that currently are considered

environmentally green? Have we moved in that direction at all? I know the City

of St. John's has.

MS WHALEN: The new energy policy means that we have to purchase 20 per

cent of our fleet, energy

MS MICHAEL: Energy efficient.

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Are there going to be new purchases this year, and is that

going to be adhered to?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we are going to apply that 20 per cent in this year's

purchase of the fleet.

MS MICHAEL: That is good. Thank you very much. I am very glad to see

that.

Under 3.1.02., page 75, subsection 01., Salaries, there is a big increase in

Salaries for this year's budget. What is it that you are anticipating?

MS WHALEN: That is decreased due to our vacant positions that we have,

refilling some of the positions.

MS MICHAEL: About how many positions are vacant there?

MS WHALEN: I am not sure of how many right now, I don't have the number

here with me, but I can certainly let you know. There are a number of vacancies

there, I know that.

MS MICHAEL: I would be interested in knowing not just the number but in

what areas are the vacancies; what are the actual role descriptions.

MS WHALEN: It is in engineering, actually.

MS MICHAEL: In engineering?

MS WHALEN: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you, and I look forward to that.

Will I do another one, Roland?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, my dear.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, good enough. I will do one more, then.

Under 3.2.03., once again I will give you time to find that, on page 76 -

subsection 06., Purchased Services, I think I probably know the answer to this

one. The Purchased Services has gone up, but then I think there is a higher

budget for doing some of this work this year than we have had before. Is that

correct, and that would explain the Purchased Services going up?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that was our increase to the provincial roads program.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Okay, then. Thank you very much.

I will let Mr. Butler take over again.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, last year I am saying last year, but probably it

was the first part of this year there was a shortage of salt for the roads. I

was wondering, has anything been done to possibly eliminate that from happening

this year? Not saying anything was caused by the shortage of salt, but

MS WHALEN: Well, what we did was, we had to purchase more salt, and this

year we have actually put in our budget more investment to buy more salt. It is

cheaper to buy salt in bulk, as opposed to letting it run out. With salt, you

can always use it year after year, so we are going to be purchasing more salt

again this year, in this budget.

MR. BUTLER: I think I know part of the answer to this one. I was going to

ask, did all contracts for salt go to tender, but I know there were some that

came out that did not go. I was just wondering, how many contracts were signed

for salt that did not go to tender in the last fiscal year?

MS WHALEN: I will ask our ADM Cluney to answer that one for you.

MR. MERCER: Generally there are two suppliers of salt on the Island two

contractors both of which were successful in having contracts signed last

summer for the bulk purchase, and the additional salt that was purchased

throughout this past winter was actually done as extensions to both of those

contracts, so they were done under Public Tender Act but through extension. The

Public Tender Act allows for the extension of an existing contract, and that is

how those were done.

MR. BUTLER: I guess that is a common thing year in, year out, if the need

should arise that way.

MR. MERCER: When we need to do that, yes. There are some years we do not

need to acquire additional salt, but last year we acquired quite a bit.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, we hear so much about the fees on the ferries, and

some people are going to get reductions and then there are different groups more

or less saying that seniors don't think they should have to pay and so on, I was

just wondering what are the anticipated plans in the next short term? Will we

see any decreases in ferry rates for individuals in certain areas, or will there

be increases, or is anything planned along

MS WHALEN: We have made a commitment, this government has, to bring it to

road equivalency, which we have done, so there has been a decrease in our ferry

rates already.

MR. BUTLER: I am glad the minister answered that way because my next

question, even though it is not provincial, it is, I guess, tied to a

provincial-federal relationship.

I was just wondering: you, as minister, or the officials of your department,

have you met, and how often have you met, with our federal counterparts when it

comes to the same issue, the ferry service between North Sydney and Port aux

Basques? Like you said, for those people I think it should be equivalent to what

you would travel ordinarily in any other route.

I know you don't have total control over that, but I am just wondering, has

anything been put forward in such a way? I don't travel that much. I leave the

Island probably once a year, and the amount that we have to pay is a deterrent

to even tourists coming here. They leave their motor homes and their trailers

over - a lot of them - in North Sydney. They just come over in their cars and

have a look at the West Coast. They enjoy that, no doubt about that, and then

they are gone back again, because they tell them it is so expensive over here

and there is a cost getting over.

I was just wondering, is there anything going on to try and assist in that

area?

MS WHALEN: Well, I have actually met with the Marine Atlantic committee

and I have also spoken with Minister Hearn. The ferry rates are something - I

concur with you - they certainly need to look at. It is playing an impact, I

think, on our tourists, and we as a government feel that they should certainly

look at the rate, the fares coming across the Marine Atlantic.

MR. BUTLER: The way I look at it, from Argentia to North Sydney, that is

an option, that is your own choice

MS WHALEN: It is part of our highway.

MR. BUTLER: - but in order to get off the Island we have to go from

somewhere. Port aux Basques to North Sydney is our Trans-Canada; that is the way

I look at it.

MS WHALEN: That is correct.

MR. BUTLER: Hopefully that will change in the future.

The other general question, Minister - we hear so much recently about the

T'Railways and how the bridges were bad, and it had to close down for awhile

until they were inspected, and we hear so much about our schools and our

hospitals, I am just wondering: the infrastructure, when it comes to the bridges

and that, which is entailed through your department, I am sure that has been all

inspected and has a clean bill of health?

MS WHALEN: Well, as you remember, back some while ago now our department

went out and inspected all of the bridges here in the Province when we had that

issue brought forward by the federal government, and they did, I must say, a

remarkable job. They worked throughout the weekend and the staff - I must

compliment them on that particular issue, but we do inspect our bridges. It is

inspected - every two years we have to do an inspection on a bridge.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

The other one is an issue that has been ongoing for quite some time as well,

and I know in my area it is an issue and I am sure in other areas of the

Province, it is what we call the class 4 roads. I know years ago, not that far

back I guess, the department in their wisdom - and I can understand where the

department is coming from with this, because back a few years ago people would

get those roads graded in the spring and again in the fall just to keep them up

to a standard. I guess people pushed and they wanted this done, they wanted that

done. That is not going to happen, and it is unfortunate. We look at those roads

as being cabin owner's roads. Then again, I know in my area there are two roads

where there are eight or ten farmers who use those roads, whether it is for

vegetables or berries. Another gentleman cuts his hay there. Unfortunately,

those roads were - I mean they were not kept up like regular roads. All they are

asking for - and I know I mentioned this to you and your officials one time when

I met with you over in your department. If I am not mistaken, I thought they

said they may look at it. All they are looking for is to see if it can be graded

in the spring when it dries out and again in the fall just before the winter.

I was just wondering, are there any plans in place to do that? I understand

when you look at class 4 roads that they are not all that important, but they

are to a lot of people you know.

MS WHALEN: Well, as you know, back in 2004 we had to make some major

decisions, tough decisions, and there was no money here to carry out some

maintenance on that road, as you said, light maintenance, but since I came into

the Department of Transportation and Works I have met with several delegations

that have come and asked me to reconsider looking at class 4 roads, and I am

doing a piece of work right now with my officials. I am certain that I will have

more discussion on that to see if we can find some kind of a resolution to some

of the issues that we are facing with class 4 roads.

MR. BUTLER: Wonderful, good news.

Another incident, and I do think it is altogether tied to your department,

but it is in the Spaniard's Bay area and it is what they call the old track,

those roads used to be looked after as well similar to the class 4 roads. What

is happening there now, when government - whether it was through agriculture or

through your department, when they gave up on those roads the cabin owners were

told they had to look after it themselves, and there are quite a few cabin

owners in there. So what they did, they started a committee and raised their own

money to do the roads. Now the problem they are having, the Department of

Forestry - and I am dealing with that through that department - the domestic

cutters go in there now cutting their wood. They are tearing up the roads coming

out with the loads and here are those people with their own money. That is not

an issue for you, but it just goes to show that there are major problems on

those side roads. You cannot stop people from cutting wood either for their heat

in the winter -

MS WHALEN: And nor should we.

MR. BUTLER: That's right.

Then, again, you have the other side of it where those people are taking over

a government road and keeping up the maintenance on it themselves, buying the

class A, getting the dozers to go in and do it. Hopefully, it can all tie

together, and whether there is another department that has to look after that

issue, but I am glad that you and your officials are looking into that one.

The other one, minister, I notice in the budget this year you mentioned some

word about the - and I know we have been bringing it up as an Opposition and

other people - twenty-four-hour snow clearing. I think it is mentioned in the

budget that you will be looking at it for high density areas or whatever. I was

just wondering if you could give us a little clarification on that and what the

plans are?

MS WHALEN: What we actually did in this budget is that we have invested

over $1 million now, $1.7 million, to do twenty-four-hour snow clearing but we

are doing some pilot projects and we are doing it in high traffic areas. We did

one on Outer Ring Road. We also did a pilot at Deer Lake to Corner Brook. So

there are several areas. We have had some traffic counts and that sort of thing

done, but during the coming fall we will have a list of pilot projects that we

will be undertaking in high traffic areas. We will provide you with that later

on in the fall.

MR. BUTLER: Just one quick question, I guess. I will just do one more.

I do not bring this up in a critical way because all the people who work with

the department are doing their jobs but there is one area that I just cannot

figure out, and I have been watching it for years since I have been involved,

travelling back and forth as an elected official and when I worked with another

MHA. When you leave Bay Roberts to come to St. John's, it is the same weather

type day, snowing or whatever, you leave that area and you come up as far as

probably the Avondale Access, pretty good driving. You do not expect to see it

like that. It is winter. There is snow or slush, or something is going to be

there. Then when you leave that area and you come into Foxtrap, it is a totally

different world. Once you leave Foxtrap to the city, you get the same conditions

as you have from Avondale back to Bay Roberts. I do not know how to say what I

am trying to say, to be honest with you. The plows are the same. There are human

beings operating them, and it is not the conditions and the weather. The weather

conditions are the same from point A to point B, but this

section in between,

for whatever reason, it is not kept up the same as the other two sections. I do

not blame that on the people there but I just cannot figure it out. I was

wondering if it has been an issue brought forward or anything in the past by

groups or individuals?

MS WHALEN: I will refer that to our Assistant Deputy Minister, Cluney. He

may have more information on that.

MR. MERCER: We really have not had a lot of complaints about that,

although Foxtrap is probably one of the largest winter maintenance units. They

have two primary pieces of highway that they have to dedicate trucks to; one

being Route 60 through the old highway, through CBS and into Holyrood, as well

as the Trans-Canada Highway, the divided section.

On a per kilometre basis, or even on a lane kilometre basis, we have the same

amount of trucks there, the same amount of staff dedicated to a plow run. So

each run is about forty kilometres, no different than in Bay Roberts. We have

had in past years, not as much in the last couple of years, but in past years we

certainly had issues with unavailability of equipment because we do not have

spare equipment in terms of snowplows. If a snowplow breaks down on a route,

then we have to double up routes until we can get that piece of equipment back

on the road.

Several years ago we were certainly having issues with replacing equipment

that was broken down, but with the investment that is going into new equipment

now - it has gone in for the last two years. This is our third year of replacing

up to thirty or thirty-plus snowplows every year. The issue of availability has

increased significantly. As a matter of fact, we track that on a daily basis. We

have gone from less than 80 per cent availability to 90 per cent availability

over the last couple of years. So, on a personal level, I am certainly getting

less complaints about that, and understanding from our own people that that is

improving.

MS MICHAEL: These might be my last questions, as I look at my page here.

Head 3.3.02., page 80.

MS WHALEN: Development of New Facilities?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, that is right, under Capital.

Under Capital, Development of New Facilities, could I just have a breakdown?

I am presuming there is new construction this year with $3,150,000. What are we

anticipating in new construction?

MS WHALEN: The biggest part of that would be our $2.1 million for the

depot on the Trans-Labrador Highway that we are building.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MS WHALEN: It is a new depot.

MS MICHAEL: Would anything in there be included for either new school

construction or extensions of schools?

MS WHALEN: Not in that particular number, no.

MS MICHAEL: Not in that particular number. Where would that show up then?

MS WHALEN: That would be in the Department of Education.

MS MICHAEL: Oh. So that does not come in under here?

MS WHALEN: No, it does not.

MS MICHAEL: Even though it is government owned?

MS WHALEN: No, but it is under the Department of Education. All school

construction would be under that. The same with long-term facilities, home care

would be under the Department of Health.

MS MICHAEL: And hospitals.

MS WHALEN: Yes, and court houses would be under Justice.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. So even though in one

section it does cover those

buildings, and Capital it does not cover those buildings. Okay, great.

Under maintenance you said that those buildings are covered.

MR SMART: No, I said -

MS MICHAEL: I'm sorry, I thought that is what I heard.

MR. SMART: Perhaps I should clarify. Under maintenance, what I said was

maintenance covers buildings operated directly by government and does not cover

buildings operated by agencies, such as school boards or hospital boards.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, because there were two different categories. I am

really confused then, because there were two different categories when we looked

at maintenance. One was for directly the departments and then the other was for

the broader. So I misunderstood. I will get my head straight on that if I -

MR. SMART: I think one of the - it is just the way the budget is

structured. The Administration piece would cover people employed by the

department administering our building maintenance program

whereas the actual

building maintenance budget, where the big money is, does in fact cover the

supplies and the cleaning contracts and everything else that goes with

maintaining the buildings. It is just direct government-operated buildings, not

schools, not hospitals, not universities, not long-term care facilities and so

on.

The same with our Capital budget, if we are going to build our own depot the

money will appear here but the money for building a hospital would be in health,

the money for building -

MS MICHAEL: I got that, okay. Thank you very much. I misunderstood you

before then.

Under 4.3.02. Government-Operated Aircraft; just for my information, besides

the air ambulance program, what other aircraft are part of the aircraft fleet?

MS WHALEN: It would be our water bombers that we use in case of forest

fires and that sort of thing. That is the ones that we are talking about,

proposing to buy six new water bombers. We are in negotiations right now with

Bombardier.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. So, the total aircraft fleet then is water bombers and

air ambulance?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is correct.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

Thank you very much.

Subhead 4.3.03., I presume that is going to be the new acquisitions, under

4.3.03., $38 million?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is the new planes. Our air ambulance, we will be

purchasing a new air ambulance next month.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

I think that covers all of my questions, minister.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Butler may have more.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I guess, Mr. Butler, we will hear from you.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, unless there is someone else who wanted to ask a

question or anything?

CHAIR: Does anybody else have any questions or anything?

Yes, sure. Go right ahead.

MR. LODER: This is not a question, just a comment.

Our roadwork for the Bay of Islands since 1999, I think, the most money

allocated for one year maintenance was about $880,000. Last year we received

$800,000, and we are quite pleased, of course. For the first time in recent

years, or it could be the first time ever, that we received over $2 million for

the district. I would like to state publicly, to thank you, minister, and your

staff for giving us the consideration of the monies allocated. Our residents of

the Bay of Islands are quite excited with the extra funding and looking forward

to the paving and recapping that will take place this year, and we are looking

forward to more monies forthcoming in the future to see the full and total road

recapped.

Thank you very much.

We are getting great response from your people, your staff here in St. John's

and including out in Corner Brook. We cannot ask for any better response to our

inquiries.

Thank you.

MS WHALEN: That is good to hear. Thank you very much for that feedback.

We are certainly pleased to be having that kind of infusion into our roads

program. It is unprecedented. I think it is the largest in our history, a $73

million investment. It works out to, with the cost-shared, to be about $182

million that will be put into our roads infrastructure this year. That is great

news.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Darryl Kelly.

MR. KELLY: Like my colleague from the Bay of Islands, I am extremely

pleased with the budget, with the increase. In my district, of course, the

budget implications are for all three areas, as you have outlined. Land

transportation is important. The water bombers are important in my area because

the forest industry is critical to Western Newfoundland; and also, of course,

with air transportation as well.

In my area, in my district, we have a major depot, the Department of Highways

in Deer Lake, and also we have facilities in Hampton and in Pollards Point.

I guess what I am wondering is: Will there be any changes in the distribution

of services in those areas that you may be aware of?

MS WHALEN: No, there are none that I am aware of.

MR. KELLY: Thank you very much.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Are there any more questions? We will refer back to Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Sir.

Minister, it is not because I am asking all of the questions that we are

against your budget either. I am very pleased with what I received in my area.

Being elected since 2001, I think up to this point in time I had $140,000 and it

is good to see $2.5 million go in there in various areas and in the surrounding

area. Unfortunately, I guess the storm cost one bit of damage for you people,

you had to put a new bridge in. Regardless, a lot of people did not think they

would see it done in the very near future and I am pleased with that line as

well.

MS WHALEN: Thank you.

MR. BUTLER: A couple of other general questions and then there are a few

more liners. Like my hon. colleague, those liners can get to you sometimes

because you do not know if the questions have been answered before, and a lot of

them relate to each other from the different sections.

When I attended the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipalities Convention this

year here in St. John's, one of the motions that they put forward, and no doubt

it has come to your attention, was the quality of asphalt. I know the people in

your department have very little to do with that, but there is so much about it.

I just want to touch on my area where there was pavement done through a

municipality a little over four years ago, and the pavement is actually gone.

I know you will here, oh, it is our winters and things like that, but we have

always had bad winters here in this Province. I think there used to be a place

within your department where that is tested from time to time. I may be wrong on

that but I think that is correct. I am wondering: has it been discussed or has

it been determined? Is there a problem or is it just because we are having

milder or colder winters? Could that be the issue?

MS WHALEN: Actually, we have had discussion in our department about that.

We have hired a consultant who looked into our spec. Out spec is being changed

and all the municipalities that want that spec can certainly get that spec now,

but there was some revision done to the spec that we had.

You are quite right. I have heard the pavement has deteriorated. It has only

been down a year or two, probably, and it is deteriorating, but we hope that we

will have that fixed in the near future. It depends on the aggregate that you

use. There are a number of things that happen there. We are confident that with

the advice we received from the consultant and the change in the spec that we

should see improvements in our pavement.

MR. BUTLER: Good.

The other thing is-

MS WHALEN: I would like to clarify too that the work that is done in the

municipalities, they do not normally come under Transportation and Works but

they are certainly welcome to have that spec. If they would like our specs, we

will provide it to them.

MR. BUTLER: I know it is an issue that came up through the Joint Councils

out in my area and they are all complaining.

Another issue is the lines that are painted on our highways. I know in the

last Joint Council meeting that happened out in the Conception Bay North area

that came up. There was an RCMP officer transferred to the area from out West.

Now, I know their climate is probably a bit different from us, but they brought

up about the maybe it is the same thing as with the asphalt, the quality of

the paint. It is not lasting like it used to. He was saying that out there they

have it for years and they hardly have to paint it.

I know that is an issue that comes up in my area down in the Upper Island

Cove area. There is a lot of fog there and without the lines it is very

difficult and people have gone off the highway there from time to time. You

know, almost every year or every second year you get a caller: are you going to

paint the lines out in my area? I know there are a lot of lines to be painted in

this Province but I was just wondering has anything been detected with the issue

of paint versus probably the quality of asphalt, in the same way?

MS WHALEN: Actually, we have invested in a new paint truck so we are

doing a lot of our line painting. The paint that we use is used all across

Canada. We purchase our paint from the same provider that the rest of Canada

has. I do not know if it has anything to do with our climate but we certainly

are looking at it and we have our paint trucks out doing the painting on the

lines on the highways.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe it was the quality of the asphalt that was causing the

damage to the painted lines.

MS WHALEN: We do not know but we are using the same as everybody else.

MR. BUTLER: It might cure it all in one shot.

The other thing, Minister: I know in the budget there were announcements -

and I do not have the dollars, it is probably here in the Estimates somewhere.

The upgrading with the ferry terminals and the wharves, I was wondering if you

could give us an outline on what is to take place, what areas it may be and to

what extent?

MS WHALEN: We are investing $7.5 million in terminal repairs and

replacements this year. I think I can refer back to my ADM. Paul, if you want to

say the areas that we are going to touch on this year.

MR. ALEXANDER: The three main areas that will be addressed in this year's

budget are finishing off Portugal Cove and Bell Island's upgrades. We will start

upgrading and rehabilitating the wharf facility in Lewisporte, and we are going

to invest in some adjustable ramps to accommodate the new ferries as they are

introduced. That is the investment for this year.

MR. BUTLER: This is a question, I suppose, and I do not want it to sound

like it is a complaint. Another issue that develops in my district from time to

time, and I am sure Cluney is well aware of it, is the Bishop's Cove shore. I

know last year, through the storm, that has nothing to do with this, where the

road was washed out. That was fixed and thank God that was done in a fairly

quick manner.

The hills that are there on the other side, on the opposite side of the

ocean, from time to time they have some massive rock slides there. I know even

this year you people had to go in there. I am just wondering, from a safety

perspective, I guess - I get a lot of calls because a few years ago it was

massive. It came down and took the whole highway with it in a certain section,

and that was repaired. Then this year I think there was another rock slide

there. I am just wondering, has anyone really looked into the I am not saying

you have to go and take the hills out of it, but just wondering: for safety

reasons, has it been really inspected rather than unfortunately having to go

there from time to time to clean it up? I know there are a lot of loose rocks

there and there is nowhere to go. If the rocks are starting to come down and you

are driving along, you have nowhere to go, you are out in Conception Bay. I was

just wondering: Has it ever been looked into along those lines?

MS WHALEN: I am going to refer that particular subject to our ADM, Cluney

Mercer.

MR. MERCER: Yes, we have actually on a couple of occasions. We have a

geological engineer on our staff, at our materials lab on LeMarchant Road, and

we have had him look on a regular basis. He has the expertise in that area, so

we have had him look in terms of identifying anything that might be a safety

issue. To a lot of us sometimes, even me as a civil engineer, looking at a rock

that might look like it is going to come down, but to a geological engineer,

yes, it is cracked but it is probably going to be many decades before it

actually moves, because it moves very little at a time. We have done that and we

have engaged the private sector as well in some areas. We continue to do that as

part of a monitoring program.

MR. BUTLER: I agree with you. Like you said, there are lots of times you

are driving along and you see the cracks and you figure it is going to come down

that day. It is good to know that that has been checked out and dealt with.

Section 4.3.03: I guess I know what the $38 million is this year. It is

probably having to do with new water bombers. Is that correct?

MS WHALEN: Pardon me?

MR. BUTLER: In that

section there, Government-Operated Aircraft, the

question I had last year there was $19.9 million budgeted but there was

nothing spent that year. I was just wondering

MS WHALEN: Actually money will be spent this year because we are

budgeting for the six water bombers and we are purchasing a new air ambulance,

which is over $7 million. Next month we will have a new air ambulance in

service.

MR. BUTLER: I guess the $19 million was for the same purpose last year

but it was held over until this year, and an increase in that.

MS WHALEN: That is correct.

MR. BUTLER: Also, under

section 4.3.02.

MS WHALEN: I should clarify too that $30 million is not going to be able

to provide us with the purchase of six water bombers. This is actually a down

payment. They are going to be much more than that. We are in negotiations right

now so I cannot give you any more details other than this is a down payment

right now on the aircrafts, the water bombers.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

Section 4.3.02.04, Supplies: Last year I think there was an increase of

$604,000 approximately. I was just wondering what would have caused that

increase there under Supplies.

MS WHALEN: I beg your pardon but what line are speaking about here?

MR. BUTLER: I am sorry, 4.3.02, line 04, Supplies.

MS WHALEN: Your question to that is a revised increase due to higher

requirement for replacement parts and an increase in fuel. That is the reason

for that.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MS WHALEN: We anticipate fuel cost is about $75,000 this year on that.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same section, Salaries: last year the amount was

revised $282,800 higher than what was budgeted. I was just wondering if you

could explain what that increase was.

MS WHALEN: That was an increase due to the severance cost and an increase

in overtime and standby pay.

MR. BUTLER: I have a couple of other questions here.

There was one other thing I guess I just wanted to put on the radar screen

again. When we travel outside of this Province - and maybe there are areas in

the Province where we see it too, the carpooling issue. I know Cluney is

familiar with what I am going to bring up now, and I mentioned it to the

minister when we had our meeting that time. Right at the intersection of the

Veterans Memorial Highway and the intersection there where you go out to Bay

Roberts, there is an area there where approximately - I was going to get a

picture taken, minister, and I am going to get it for you anyway so you can see

it yourself. Not that you would disbelieve what I am telling you or anyone else

tells you, but -

MS WHALEN: No, I actually travel that area.

MR. BUTLER: - when you look at the picture and see what is there, it is

amazing how many people - and they come from Carbonear, Harbour Grace, Bay

Roberts, all throughout the area - park and carpool back and forth from the

city. On any given day there is anywhere from seventy-five to one hundred

vehicles there. The department - and I have to give them credit - back a couple

or three years ago, they did do a bit of work there. It looked after the need at

that time, but now it is after growing to the point where everyone is coming

there. They are out on the sides of the highways, and I know I brought it up, I

do not think it would cost - I think Cluney had a figure on it, and basically it

would not be all that much.

I was just wondering have you looked into that and thought maybe something

can be done this year? Because really, when you are cleaning out the ditches you

can dump it all there. You own the land or the property, I think. Just widen it

out so those people - I think it is a wonderful thing to see that we do have an

area where people are carpooling, I guess for environmental reasons and

everything else. I was just wondering, has that been considered since that time,

and what are the possibilities of seeing some little thing done with it again in

the future?

MS WHALEN: Actually, we did snow clear it last year for you. You did

bring it to my attention, and I am fully supportive of people who are

carpooling. It is actually a good idea. I hope to see more people who would do

that, but that is something that I said I would look into and see if there is

anything that we can do there to improve it.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

I asked a question earlier about the new ferries. I am not quite sure; did

you say that you do not know where they would be going at this point in time?

MS WHALEN: Yes, we have not made a decision on that yet.

MR. BUTLER: No decision has been made?

MS WHALEN: No, not on where they will be located to.

MR. BUTLER: Because apparently when the minister was going around the

Province - I am under the impression that there were two areas that were listed,

where those ferries would go, during those meetings. Now, I am not saying it was

coming from someone else or within your department. I do not know who was there,

a committee or whoever. My understanding, the communities or the areas that were

mentioned were - and I may have this wrong - Long Island and St. Brendan's. I

was just wondering, that was mentioned then and now we are hearing you say that

nothing has been finalized.

MS WHALEN: No, I have not made any decision, as minister, where they will

be going. That is something that I will have a discussion with later on. Right

now my focus is to get the tenders out for a couple of medium-sized ferries. We

will debate and discuss where they are going to go after that phase is

completed.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

I am not sure, it is your ADM, I think, isn't it - when I asked about the

terminals or where work would be done this year. I know I heard you say about

work for Bell Island and Portugal Cove. What were the other areas that you did

mention at that time?

MR. ALEXANDER: Lewisporte (inaudible) start rehabilitating the wharf

structure there and we are looking into purchasing adjustable ramps to

accommodate the new ferries for wherever they are going to be located.

MR. BUTLER: I have a couple of more - 4.2.06., just for clarification. I

guess it is the same there as when I asked about the aircraft. I notice there

was $14.5 million budgeted last year, under Ferry Vessels, and then this year it

is $33 million. I guess that is where it takes in for the new ferries, the same

as with the aircraft?

MS WHALEN: Yes, it is the very same thing. It is a carryover from last

year.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I know there is a

section 4.2.04. Ferry Terminals and 4.2.05. Ferry

Terminals. I was wondering if you could explain. I am sure there is a reason for

it.

MS MICHAEL: One is Current and one is Capital.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I got my answer. I did not look well enough on the

pages, I guess.

MS WHALEN: It is Current versus Capital.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

Under 4.1.01., I am sure there is a legitimate reason for this, under Air

Subsidies, item 10. Grants and Subsidies, where it went over budget by $400,000.

MS WHALEN: That was a revised increase due to the emergency passenger

airlift required when the ferry vessels are not available due to mechanical

problems, like ice blockages.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Heading 4.1.03. Airstrips, under 06. Purchased Services. I think it is

approximately $491,800 less spent than what was budgeted for that timeframe. I

was just wondering if you could give an explanation there.

MS WHALEN: The decrease is due to reduced projects for repair and

maintenance of the airstrips.

MR. BUTLER: Under 4.2.03., I know it is not a tremendous amount, I guess,

under Transportation and Communications, 03., under Coastal Labrador Ferry

Operations. It shows a decrease there of $56,700. I was just wondering -

MS WHALEN: That is due to lower than expected freight expenses.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Heading 4.2.04. I guess I can say that I know the answer to this one as well

because once you tie into one you tie into all of them. 4.2.04., Ferry

Terminals, Purchased Services. Last year you spent a little over $1 million less

than what was budgeted. I guess that ties into what we are talking about now,

the services for this year, the renovations?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is due to the project delays. Right?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: That is in reference to the ADM mentioned again this year?

MS WHALEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Chair, I think that is all I have there. I have lots of

one liners but I think they have been touched on by my hon. colleague or one

references to what you get as an answer in the other ones.

In closing, I just want to thank the minister and her staff for this

opportunity.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

MS WHALEN: I also want to thank the Committee for their valuable

questions this morning. It has been a pleasure.

Thank you.

MS MICHAEL: May I also thank the minister and her staff for the good

answers to our questions.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

It was a very cordial meeting. I certainly appreciate everyone's

participation.

Without any further adieu, shall 1.1.01. to 4.3.03. all inclusive carry?

SOME HON MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.3.03. carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Transportation and Works, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Transportation

and Works carried without amendment?

SOME HON MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Works carried

without amendment.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Before I ask for a motion to adjourn, I would just like to remind everyone

that on Monday, May 12, we are here in the House at 9:00 a.m. for the Public

Service Commission, Department of Finance. That is our next Government Services

Committee Estimates meeting.

Could I ask for adjournment, please?

MR. BUTLER: Could I ask which Committee you just mentioned, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: Government Services Committee.

MS MICHAEL: Monday, it is Finance.

CHAIR: Monday morning, Finance, 9 a.m. here in the House.

Meeting to adjourn by Mr. Buckingham, seconded by the Member for Signal

Hill-Quidi Vidi.

Again, thank you very much minister, and thanks to your staff.

Good day.

The Committee stands adjourned.