ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 169 - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 26 JANUARY, 1984. Printed by the Offiee of Ille 0.-ns Pr1nler. Province of Menil obll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NOP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 26 January, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING Of REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Return to Order of the House No. 4, dated December 15, 1982, on motion of the Honourable Member for Charleswood. Also, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table Return to Order of the House No. 19 of this same Session, dated July 28, 1983, on motion of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Bill No. 115 - closure motion MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the contempt - this is for the Premier - that the government has shown, not only for the opposition, but for this Legislature and the people of Manitoba . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G.

FILMON: . . . in imposing the unprecedented, that is at least for 54 years, motion of closure on this Legislature and debate on Bill 115, will the Premier assure the people of Manitoba who may wish to appear before committee and present briefs with respect to this bill that his government will not impose restrictions on either the length or the number of briefs before that committee? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, the question is repetitive, except I want to say to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, if there has been contempt in this Chamber it has been contempt on the part of the members of the opposition that have constantly and repeatedly walked out of this Chamber, that they refused to debate, that have permitted the bells to ring, ring, ring, in a manner that is completely unprecedented in the history of the Province of Manitoba. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, this First Minister has not given the assurance that I've asked for to whether or not - and I want to know, the questions yesterday were on the topic but not the same - will he give assurance to the people of Manitoba that his government will not impose a restriction either on the length or the number of briefs that will be presented on Bill 115 at committee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as we've indicated, those that wish to be heard will be heard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, can the Government House Leader confirm that on the most important resolution before us; namely, the one dealing with the constitutional amendment, the opposition has not once walked out of this Chamber, not once rang the bells on the debate on that motion, and as a matter of fact last summer had only the opportunity to put something like three speakers on that resolution, and during this Session some 16 speakers. Not once has the opposition adjourned or rung the bells on the important constitutional amendment. Can the Government House Minister confirm that fact? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the member might well not want to ask me to do very much research on that, because I think I will find that the obstructionary tactics, which have been used during the last several weeks in this House, were used extensively last summer on a referral motion that dealt very specifically with the amendment. In fact, the bells rang for a whole weekend. MR. H. ENNS: That was to drag you to the public meetings. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker. it is very clear and I'm amazed that the Opposition House Leader does not yet understand that the package dealing with French Language Services that is before this Legislature is exactly that. It, Sir, is a package. It was originally conceived as an amendment to The Manitoba Act. In response to concerns that were raised, it now consists of an amendment, substantially changed, and a bill. Mr. Speaker, the opposition is clearly on record as opposing both.

They're clearly on record as ringing bells against the package and ringing them . as my Premier has said, in a manner unprecedented in the history of Canadian Provincial Parliaments. 5766

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 Schneider, Hans - appointment of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Corrections. Can the Minister confirm that she has appointed Mr. Hans Schneider, the former corrections commissioner, as her special assistant? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: No, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Schneider is filling a role as an advisor until he takes another position within a few months. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister give us the rationale for having Mr.

Schneider as her advisor when so many problems developed at Headingley and in the Department of Corrections while Mr. Schneider was the commissioner? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, with changes in the department, we have strengthened the administrative side in the Corrections field. We feel that Mr. Schneider's direct experience in the field over the years can provide an interesting and helpful perspective. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, there were two top people in that particular Department of Corrections: one was the commissioner, Mr.

Schneider, and the other one was the Minister - at that time, the Member for Brandon East. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. A. BROWN: My question to the Minister is that if she has all the confidence in Mr. Schneider, then she cannot possibly have the confidence in the former Minister. Is the Minister at the present time now saying that the problems that were created in Corrections were created by the former Minister? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. It is not in order to ask a question of a Minister asking her to comment on the actions of another Minister. Corrections, Dept. of - memorandum MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister confirm that a memorandum dated December 19th, as reported in the Free Press, exists that tells jail supervisors that the responses to media inquiries must not contain any opinion or speculation that may be construed as a comment on policy or as critical of the system? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, that was the first I knew of such a memorandum. It never came forward and had authorization.

Had it been proposed, I would never have approved it, and it has now been withdrawn and we are reviewing the media policy, the public relations policy of the department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister tell us who authorized that memorandum in the first place? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, correct procedures were not followed, which is why we are not acknowledging it and will not support that type of policy within the department. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Speaker, my question was, who sent out that particular memorandum and will the Minister remove the threat that if any employee in her department talks to a reporter, or anyone else, that they will be fired or severely reprimanded? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I've already said that memorandum is not in effect, that I believe the question of who should speak to the media and in what conditions does call for clarification.

I think that people in the field have often the requi1 ement that they speak out on factual things, but I think depar�mental policy issues are better dealt with through the normal departmental procedure. I think any organization must have some guidelines in terms of who is the official spokesperson, otherwise contradictory

interpretations or information even may come forward . It is not our desire to cover up any unfortunate events in the department, but to move indeed to have the organizational integrity and strength that such incidents are reduced to a minimum, in time eliminated. MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister, and I believe that we would still like to know who had sent that memorandum. But will the Minister , or someone in her department, be available so that employees with legitimate complaints can contact someone so that these problems can be attended to? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I think good two-way communication and appeal procedures are important to have in a sound organization, and it's been my directions to the department that we are to reorganize ourselves and ensl'.lre that all those procedures and opportunities are in place. MR. A. BROWN: My final question, Mr. Speaker, is: will the Minister assure the employees in her department that they will not be reprimanded when they voice their opinion of problems that exist within the system? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I already referred to the development of a public relations policy.

I think the opportunity !or all employees to voice their concerns about policy and about practices should take place in the normal planning procedures for the department. Indeed, I intend to encourage that type of input and will be looking for suggestions and help from those very employees who in their daily activities often do come up with good suggestions as to how to better operate the system. 5767

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 Adoption moratorium MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community Services relative to the moratorium on the adoption of Native children, which was announced, I believe, approximately a year-and­ a-half ago. Could the Minister indicate how many Native children have been adopted by Native families since the moratorium was imposed, and how many are being held in care pending adoption? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I'll take that question under advisement to get the actual numbers, but the information I do have is that the moratorium and the development of a protocol to work with the Native community to see that more culturally appropriate placements are developed and indeed carried out is proceeding very well. But I will undertake to get as much of the precise - the accurate numbers as I can. Child abuse investigation MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister.

Can she advise the House if she has implemented her policy of keeping or returning abused or neglected children to their parents, rather than apprehending the children in order to protect them? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I have never said that my policy was always to return children who were abused or neglected to parents and never to apprehend them.

What I have said is that we want to work with supportive services to families so that the necessity for apprehending and removing children, particularly on a permanent basis, is reduced, and the development of ability of families to handle their children and the difficulties that come along is improved. But we, of course, on some occasions will have to apprehend. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister.

Could she advise as to whether in any of these situations, where abused or neglected children have been returned to their parents, have there been any cases of further abuse or neglect with respect to those children? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I do not have precise information, but I can assure the member opposite that our prime concern will be for the protection of the children in the situation. When we're dealing with families, there is always going to be some judgment call involved, but there's that when we place them in other locations as well.

But in every instance, our primary goal will be to protect the children and then, secondarily, to work with the families and with the community to see that we can maintain them wherever possible with their family unit. Jobs Fund - advertising MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, one final question to the First Minister. The Government House Leader tabled a reply to my Order for Return with respect to the costs of Jobs Fund advertising which shows a

summary of cost to July 28, 1983, of $381,717.46. Would the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, undertake to provide the House with up-to-date information with respect to the Jobs Fund Advertising Program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology will deal with that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I would be pleased to give further information with respect to the amount of funds that are spent on public information regarding the Jobs Fund. I would just mention, Mr.

Speaker, that it is considerably less than the figure that was quoted by the member opposite some time ago, when he said that he thought it would be in the neighbourhood of $2 million. In fact, it's considerably less than 1 percent in total for all activities related to the administration and public information for the Jobs Fund campaign and the Jobs Fund, because if one relates that to other activities of government in the private sector, one will see that's a very insignificant amount of money.

The amount of money that is being spent to date breaks out as follows: on administration and staffing for the fund, it's approximately $300,000; for information, material and application forms, it's approximately $100,000; for advertising placement to date, it's approximately $560,000; and for design and production, agency fees, etc., it's $260,000.00. So I think that, Mr. Speaker, is money well spent, informing Manitobans of the various programs available under the Jobs Fund, so they can make good use of the programs. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister's answer would indicate there has been almost $1.3 million expended to date on advertising the Jobs Fund. Mr. Speaker, how much longer is this waste of the taxpayers' money going to go on? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, the comment made by the member is incorrect. I indicated that the total costs related to the administration, advertising, public information, which is all cost related to the administration and operation of the Jobs Fund, totals approximately $1.3 million to date, which is less than 1 percent of the total amount of money in the campaign. I think it's important, Mr.

Speaker, to realize we have to ensure that Manitobans are aware of the activities of the Jobs Fund, that businesses can participate in the various programs, that individuals can participate in the various programs, that homeowners can participate in the programs related to housing construction. In fact, just last week, when the new Homes in Manitoba Program under the Jobs Fund was 5768

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 announced, there was a lack of sufficient copies of the brochures. The housing industry, Mr. Speaker, wanted more copies. Unlike members opposite, when they were in government, we feel it is important to provide information to the public on jobs and programs that are happening, Mr. Speaker, unlike the kind of advertising campaign that took place on dreams, sitting on a gold mine, on things that they had hoped to happen. We provided information to the public on things that are happening in the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. Bilingualism in Manitoba MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education and ask her that, given repeated reports that students in the Seine River Valley School Oivision are being segregated on the basis of the French and English languages, can the Minister indicate whether this is in fact the case? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I'm not able to confirm or deny that question, because I have no information on that matter. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister provide this House and the people of Manitoba with the assurance that the government will not allow Manitoba children in the same school to be divided and segregated into two camps based on language? Can she give us that assurance now? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I don't have any information that indicates that is happening. School divisions and school trustees that are elected by their communities are the people who have the responsibility for determining the organization, the programs, where the schools will be, where the children will go.

They are elected by the residents of that community, they are responsible to that community, and they should answer to them for the decisions that they make. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd ask the Minister whether if an instance of segregation based on language is brought to her attention will she act or will she stand idly by? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. R. PENNER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. That question is hypothetical and calls for a hypothetical answer and . A MEMBER: Are you the House Leader? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question so that it seeks information and does not pose a hypothesis. 5769 lotteries MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister in charge of Lotteries and would ask him if he could inform the House when total community involvement will be closing its doors? MR. SPEAKER: Will the honourable member repeat his question. MR. R. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Lotteries.

I wonder if he could inform the House when total community involvement will cease functioning or will be closing its doors, because of the takeover by the Manitoba Government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the TCI has never been taken over by the Provincial Government. Certainly under the new admirn�tration there is no place for them, but they cease to function, and they certainly haven't been taken over at all. All the agencies that form part of the TCI are and will be taken care of. A MEMBER: It's called redundance. MR. R.

BANMAN: Since there won't be any place for TCI and since they will be closing their doors, has the Minister negotiated with TCI some settlement for the winding down of their operation? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, there has been a contract signed between the government through the Manitoba Lotteries Commission, as my honourable friend knows, and TCI and that agreement will be respected. There's no other obligation than that. MR. R. BANMAN: I appreciate that the agreement, which is a three-year agreement, will see money on a diminishing scale going to the different groups.

Since there are some wind-down costs for TCI and payments to staff and that, will the Minister be providing them with some funds for winding-down costs? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I want to repeat what I said. There's an agreement and you live up to the agreement. If there has been a further agreement between any organization, certainly you wouldn't expect the taxpayer to be responsible for that MR. R.

BANMAN: Will the Minister assure this House that the member agencies of TCI will, in the new system, that we won't see the killing of the self-help concept that was involved with TCI and that the agency and the members of TCI will, in the new lottery system, find a place for them? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We would hope that we will be able to stop the self help of many of the people. We hope that we will do more to encourage the

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 volunteers and that's exactly what the new system will do; that is, the unpaid volunteers, those that are really working for the agency. MR. R. BANMAN: In Judge Jewers report he has mentioned that the competition between WL MD and TCI at the retail level increased lottery sales tickets. Does the Minister now, with the removal of TCI and their retailing efforts, expect a drop in ticket sales in the province? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, with these questions I think the honourable member is inviting an answer that'll take a little time.

I don't mind giving it to him as long as it's understood that he's requesting this information. The situation - when TCI came in there was already a partnership of three. Where TCI came in not as equal partners, they had been in competition before. The honourable member that spoke signed special arrangements with them, gave them a lump sum of money that actually shouldn't have been given, and then gave them more privileges than the other three partners who had formed TCI, who had formed Western Canada Lottery Foundation, had ever done. Now having done this, Mr. Speaker, having this group, now what did they do?

Instead of forming a group, where the group was in there, the intent purpose of WL MD was to share the cost, share the help and get the cost in as low as possible to maximize the profit. Then they were allowed all of a sudden to proceed but against the contract that they signed, that the members of TCI then - that's what they call the volunteers - went out and looked at people that were already in most instances, not in all, but in most instances, retailing tickets.

But then the pressure came by - these would be volunteers - well, you know, you've got a drug store but you might have a kid going to this school, or you like this thing, so why don't you sell to us? So these people said, why not? So they started selling through TCI, and the same company, something that had already been organized. That's what they're talking about - new tickets and new volunteers. In the majority of the cases that was it.

So then TCI, with these new vendors, that in many cases had been stolen by other groups, these same TCI received extra money for that but they still, in the group that they were trying to scuttle, did get a 25 percent share, something that they had done everything to destroy. They would criticize that very openly. Besides that, the total community involvement that was started at one time when the contract was signed were about 260 agencies. They added up to about 65 just a little while ago, and I'm sure that the last one is really gung-ho to stay in this.

The last one at the bottom of the ladder made a profit of $2.50. So therefore of these 65, approximately 11 or 12 got 84 percent of the profit of TCI. They in turn under that system returned up to 50 percent to promoters, to freeloaders as far as I'm concerned. If that's what you mean, to make sure that we don't encourage those that help themselves, these are the people that I intend. Casino facility MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister in charge of Lotteries could inform the House whether or not the government is in the process of either building or issuing a permit for the construction of a casino facility in the province. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The casino situation, nothing has been changed as far as casinos. There are no extra dates given; I think that's the important thing. They would have to do the same thing as they do for the races there, with Cabinet, and they would have to agree on that.

In the meantime, the government has instructed the foundation to be on the lookout to see if they can see some adequate facilities. Write down the facilities. When they talk about a permanent, it doesn't mean a full­ time; permanent might be an area where all the casinos will be held. Now they go to the Convention Centre, and they can be kicked out at the last minute. We're very concerned, I'm very concerned personally anyway, for security; and there are not good methods, good protection at these facilities.

The same people that are laughing now would probably be jumping on their chair if something happened and blaming me for not taking care of the security. A MEMBER: I'm not laughing, Larry. I'm smiling at you. HON. L DESJARDINS: That's just the same. When you smile, it's like a laugh. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. l. DESJARDINS: So, Mr. Speaker, we're. A MEMBER: Happy Harry! HON. l. DESJARDINS: You nearly broke your arm closing the desk the other day. You weren't smiling. Mr. Speaker, I hope that this is the information that my honourable friend would like to hav9. MR. R.

BANMAN: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In light of the fact that the government will now be taking a more active role in casinos, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not the operators who are currently operating casinos will be replaced by people who will be working for the corporation, in other words, people who are civil servants. Will they be now running the casinos? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the government will be taking, or the employees of government, or those that have been designated by the government will play a more important

part in running them. That's absolutely true. We hope that we will have more security also and more protection. Now, as far as the division of the funds, the public· and the volunteers will play a much more important part than they have before. sno

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 As far as the casino, that decision is not made. We're looking for the best possible people that we could have to run these casinos. I doubt if they will be employees of the government. It could be on a tender, or that they could be term people and people jus! dealing with that; that has not been settled yet.

I must say the policy has been and will continue to be to try as much as possible to give these first positions, temporary, permanent, part­ time, whatever, to as many people who are now making a living out of the lottery - when I say, lottery, I mean casino and everything, here in Manitoba - as much as possible. MPIC - seat belt infractions MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCKARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporati on .

Will the Minister indicate whether Autopac will in any way use convictions under the seat belt law to accumulate fault upon drivers in the Province of Manitoba and thereby automatically raising their insurance premiums on their vehicles? A MEMBER: It's pretty deep, John. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think we indicated pretty clearly, Mr. Speaker, last week that there would be no demerits on licences for drivers convicted of seat belt infractions. That has been stated in this House, and that regulations were being prepared. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sorry to wake up the Minister responsible for Autopac, but the question was to him. It was not, Sir, to deal with demerits on a driver's licence. It was asking the Minister if they will use convictions under the seat belt law as an accumulation of fault, whereby Autopac automatically raises the insurance premium charged on the vehicles owned by that driver. A MEMBER: Right over his head. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Speaker, the reason that I didn't respond was that the question initially placed was as convoluted as the second question.

The answer to the second question is "no." MR. D. ORCHARD: I thank the Minister for finally understanding the second time the convoluted question and providing the answer. Could the Minister of Autopac indicate whether MPIC policy will be such that drivers involved in accidents and not wearing their seat belts will automatically have their damage claims reduced as a result of failure to use their seat belts? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr.

Speaker, that is a responsibility for the courts to decide on, not for MPIC. sn1 On the other hand, MPIC may well in the litigation be arguing that the person contributed to the extent of the accident through negligence by not wearing a seat belt - the courts though, not of MPIC. A MEMBER: Which is the current law. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, how often then will Autopac be taking claims, damage victims, through the court system to reduce their claims if they are not wearing their seat belts? Mr.

Speaker, I suggest, with all due respect to members opposite, that this is a very serious issue that Manitoba drivers want to know whether their coverage is in place with or without a seat belt in Manitoba. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the Honourable Member for Pembina like to rephrase his question, then. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the extreme concern amongst Manitoba drivers that their claim damages will be reduced if they are involved in an accident and not wearing a seat belt, my question is can the Minister assure us that Autopac will not be reducing damage claims to individuals involved in accidents when they're not wearing their seat belts? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I think the member is under some misinformation, as are some rural newspaper editors in the constituencies that they represent.

I had indicated before that with respect to whether or not a person is wearing a seat belt, whether or not that will have effect on the settlement is a matter for the courts to decide. The Member for Pembina has been making reference to damage claims. There is no reference that I am aware of between wearing a seat belt and damage claims. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister is: if a driver is involved in an accident and he or his passengers are injured in that accident and they are not wearing seat belts, will Autopac, through the courts, attempt to reduce the claims paid by Autopac to those drivers or passengers? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of an answer from the Minister on that question, which is very important to the drivers of Manitoba and passengers in vehicles in Manitoba, could the Minister indicate to me that since enforcement of the seat belt law will not take place until April 1st of this year, will drivers and passengers injured in vehicle accidents,

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 not wearing seat belts, from now until April 1st, receive the assurance from the Minister that Autopac will not pursue damage claims to the courts with an attempt to reduce those damage claims as long as the seat belt law is not enforced? Agricultural publications MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. I wonder, in connection with the agricultural publications that are issued annually, if he could tell us if they're going to be issued in metric and imperial measures. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we will be following the procedure that's been in place for a number of years since they were in office. MR. D. BLAKE: Well, I'm glad to hear the Minister confirm that they'll be following the procedure followed in recent years, Mr. Speaker. I understand the 1984 Wheat Control Guide and the Crop Recommendations have been published in metric only and from 1977 through to 1980, there was imperial measurements in the Wheat Control Guide and imperial and metric from there on until 1983, and this year they're going to be metric only.

Could he confirm that they're going to be in metric and imperial this year? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we have not changed the policy in terms of the progression of the changes that were there when they were in office. We are following the same progression. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, I take it from the . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. D. BLAKE: I take it from the Minister's statement, Mr.

Speaker, that it's going to be published in metric only this year - the Wheat Control Guide and the Crop Recommendations - and for the sake of some uniformity, I'm sure the Minister is aware of the problems created in the farming community with metric measurements MR. SPEAKER: Question? MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The studies have shown that 70 percent of the people in the farm community are confused by metric-only measurements. Will he ensure that the publications in the farm communities are published in metric and imperial measurements, if he insists on using the metric?

Would he ensure that they're published now in metric and imperial, simultaneously? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I agree there are concerns and I'll take the question as notice. But I want to advise the honourable member that I have not issued any instructions to the department to the contrary to change what was in place when they were in office, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, a follow-up question to the Minister.

In view of the fact that the policy, when we were in government and I was Minister, that all publications and all documents coming from the Department of Agriculture were both in imperial and in metric, will the Minister of Agriculture enforce that policy of both imperial and metric for the farm community and all of Manitobans? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, it's actually enlightening to hear members opposite protest so severely that they didn't institute changes. Mr.

Speaker, the changes were put into place and they've been followed in a progressive way, the same as was done with Highways when they were in office, the very same thing was done in Agriculture, and we have not changed the rules and the regulations dealing with this matter. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister if he would enforce the policy that was in place by our government, which was to provide the information in both imperial and metric? Another subject, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture, in view of the fact that again for two days hand running, we've had a report of dissatisfaction coming from the farm community - and let there be no mistake that the dissatisfaction that's announced in today's paper is coming from our friends but are supporters of him - will the Minister of Agriculture change his lending policies, which has been stated by one member of the farm community, that they're little more than a farce. Will he change those policies and programs so they support the farm community in a meaningful way? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that anyone who utters a statement like that, like tre honourable members who says that the programs are a farce, let the record speak for itself. It was that member of this Chamber who indicated to us on one program that we wouldn't find one farmer in Mantioba that would benefit under the program, and that was our Loan Guarantee Program which we have assisted over 425 farmers, in which $23 million have been guaranteed to the farmers of Manitoba. Under that program, those members opposite said we wouldn't find one farmer who would qualify or who would be assisted under that program, Mr.

Speaker. We have extended that program for an additional two years because we do recognize, Sir, that the farm community has been going through a difficult period of time , Mr. Speak er, and the farm community recognizes the difficulty and we recognize the difficulty that the farm community has been going through and we've been doing all that we can, as a Provincial 5772

Thursday, 26 January, 1984 Government, in income stabilization, loan policies, loan guarantees to assist the farm community, to the impact that this government has put more money into agriculture than any government in the history of this province. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I have some committee changes in Privileges and Elections; the Member for St.

James will substitute for the Member for Fort Rouge; the Member for The Pas for the Member for Wolseley; and the Member for River East for the Member for St. Johns. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a similar announcement with respect to committee change, the Honourable Member for Virden to be replaced by the Member for Lakeside. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: I wish to move, seconded by Minister of Health, that debate on the motion of the Honourable Attorney-General respecting the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act concerning

Section 23 thereof, and on any amendments proposed thereto, shall not be further adjourned. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 5773 MR. H. ENNS: Even Pierre Trudeau had the decency to wait for a consensus. A MEMBER: In the old days, they would have tarred and feathered you. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. It is moved by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health that the debate on the motion of the Honourable Attorney-General respecting the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act concerning

Section 23 thereof, and on any amendments proposed thereto, shall not be further adjourned. Those in favour, please say Aye. Those opposed, please say Nay. In my opinion the Ayes have it and I declare the motion carried. MR. H. ENNS: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. I have been advised by the Official Opposition Whip that the opposition will not return before 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. In view of this advice, I have informed Chamber staff that they will not be required to remain on duty outside normal working hours.

I've made arrangements to secure the Chamber and the sounding of the bells will be minimized to the greatest extent possible. I'm accordingly leaving the Chair to return at 10:00 p.m. today in order to adjourn the House. (And the Division bells having stopped ringing at 10:00 p.m.) MR. SPEAKER: The time being 10:00 p.m., pursuant to our Sub-rule 3(3), this House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow (Friday).