Manitoba Hansard — 17 April 1980 (Sitting 39A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-39a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 29 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVlll No. 39 A -- 2:00 p.m., THURSDA Y, 17 APRIL, 1980 Prmted by W T Matw1chyna. Queens Printer. Provmce of Mamtoba

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, 17 April, 1980 Time: 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus sell): PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus sell): The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. LEN DOMINO: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Petition of Victoria General Hospital praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act respecting Victoria General Hospital. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Com mittees ... MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to table a public statement that was made earlier today with regard to the Western Power Grid and I do table it as Chairman of the Study Committee in this regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Report of the Children's Dental Health Program Review Committee under Dr. A.T. Storey. There are copies for the government cau cuses and the Liberal member of the Legislature. I also wish to table the report for 1979 of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 1979 Annual Report of the Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, who I would welcome upon his return to Manitoba, after his visit to Ottawa and the statements he's made in Ottawa.

Secondly, I would like to commend the Premier on his change of heart subsequent to a statement on February 22nd that he did not intend to enter into the discussions pertain ing to the debate on the sovereignty association in the province of Quebec and ask the Premier whether now he would be prepared to welcome a debate within this Chamber dealing with matters pertaining to the Con stitution, the issues presently being debated in Quebec and elsewhere, as such debates have taken place in both the Alberta and Saskatchewan Legislatures. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R.

LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his word of welcome to me on resuming my seat in the Chamber at the latter part of this week. I tell him that the remarks that I made in Ottawa to fulfil! a speaking engagement of some standing there are not new in the sense that this was a reiteration, Mr. Speaker, of re marks that the four western Premiers have been mak ing with respect to sovereignty association and its incompatibility and unacceptability as a negotiable item.

In the ongoing discussions and deliberations that will take with respect to the constitution at the appro priate time when the Prime Minister convenes the First Ministers for that purpose.Thirdly, I can advise my hon ourable friend that upcoming, of course, will be the debate on the budget which will be brought down by my colleague, the Minister of Finance, before too long which will afford all members an opportunity to speak broadly and widely on any topic of their concern.

So if my honourable friend is looking for an opportunity to debate that topic, there is every opportunity avail able on the Orders of the Day for that purpose.I say to him, however, that one needs to be prudently careful, I think, in these times with respect to statements that are being made, whether by the First Minister of a prov ince or Leader of the Opposition or other distinguished members of this House with respect to this matter.

Because, of course, the sovereignty association debate is going on in Quebec and is being watched very care fully by, first of all, of course, the people of Quebec and, secondly, by people outside of our boundaries who perhaps do not understand all of the nuances and the details of that debate. But suffice to say, I thank my honourable friend for his concern, for his I think words of commendation and tell him that, of course, we would welcome at any time any contribution to that debate that he would like to make at the appropriate time when the budget debate is on. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the First Min ister's response, then to the Minister of Finance, can the Minister of Finance advise us whether or not the budget will be introduced, handed down well in ad vance of the May 20th date? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I think it's quite safe to give that undertaking. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in the First Minister's re marks and I address this question to the First Minister, by way of request, the First Minister for clarification and I assume I will be receiving as other members will be, a receipt of his remarks made at the National Press 2599

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 Club in Ottawa. But we note that the First Minister in dicated that, Manitoba will not limit its own develop ment to suit that of Ontario. I wonder if the Minister could assure us that the same time as he makes that statement, that Manitoba has no intention to suit its development to that of the development of the western oil-producing provinces, particularly that of Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the first part of my honourable friend's question, I was speaking from some notes which I will try to reassemble, if pos sible, because not all of them were used. The time for speaking was limited. I'll try to reassemble those notes for his benefit. I'm always flattered when the Leader of the Opposition asks me for a copy of my speeches, Mr. Speaker.

He will see that in that context I was say ing what I'm sure he and all westerners would subscribe to, namely, that there is a change in the pendulum of economic development swinging to western Canada; and that for too long in the eyes of many of us in the west, and I'm sure in the eyes of the Leader of the Opposition, there has been a tendency to perceive national policies being developed primarily for the benefit of central Canada, in particular Ontario, with the result that we in the west have had to pay higher tariffs, higher imposts of various sorts to support in dustry in Ontario.

I was merely rehearsing the argument that I'm sure is familiar to every westerner that, without in any way wishing Ontario any ill luck or any prejudice to their economic system, that fact of life had to be kept in mind in the economic developments as they are occurring in Canada today. I can assure my honourable friend that I was not align ing myself against Ontario; I was not aligning the prov ince with Alberta; I was trying to speak in what I conceive to be the best long-term interests of all of the people of Manitoba. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then in further supple ment to the First Minister, can the First Minister then assure us, in addition to the concerns that he expressed in respect to Ontario tariffs, etc., that the First Minister might be able to assure us that when he utilizes the words self-sufficiency in oil, he does not mean by that way of definition that Manitoba supports the increase in the price of oil to levels at 85 percent of the world price, a policy which would extract millions of dollars from the province of Manitoba to the coffers of Alberta; to the multinational oil companies; to the Alberta Her itage Fund; and that in fact the First Minister might, in view of the concern which he expressed vis-a-vis On tario, express the same concern re the development of a policy in Manitoba that would reflect the need for stronger central government so that the wealth of Can ada can be more fairly distributed from east to west.

MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of repeating my self for the third time I believe in this session, I refer my honourable friend to a copy of the opening state ment that I made to the Energy Conference last No vember 12, 1979. I tried to ensure that a copy of that was delivered to my honourable friend so that he could read those words of wisdom and satisfy himself that the statement we made was in the best interests of Manitoba. If my honourable friend is looking for a short definition of self-sufficiency, he will find it in that statement. But very briefly, Mr.

Speaker, it is a price which is not tied necessarily to the world price, but a price at which the undeveloped resources, that is oil-producing tar sands and heavy oil sources in Alberta, can be devel oped within Canada for the benefit of all Canadians. Because, Mr. Speaker, our problem, if I may say so with respect to my honourable friend, our problem is not so much one of pricing, Mr. Speaker, our problem is one of guaranteeing the continuation of the supply of fossil fuel to the people of Canada.

And while too often we get hung up on the arguments that are taking place between Alberta and Ontario and the federal government with respect to pricing, may I suggest, Sir, with the greatest of respect, that is a secondary item. The important problem in Canada today is to develop a guaranteed supply of oil and gas for our agricultural industry, for all of the fundamental industries in this country that need it, and price is only one factor in guaranteeing that supply. That's what we mean by self sufficiency. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister has made reference to a policy pertaining to self-suffi ciency. Is the First Minister, at this stage, prepared to examine other formulas which had been advanced be yond that of Peter Loughheed in Alberta? Policies that would reflect a blended formula; policies that would ensure that there would be less moneys utilized by oil companies for non-oil producing purposes; policies that would ensure that there would be less rip-off in sofar as oil revenues by either the province of Alberta or by the multinational oil companies? MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend I know is the prisoner to some extent of some of his mythologies about the private sector and the devel opment of oil in Canada and such extraneous matters, if I may say so, Mr. Speaker, as to the ownership of oil supplies and so on. I think of much more fundamental concern, Sir, is whether or not, when our farmers in Manitoba phone up the bulk dealers a year, two years, three years down the road and ask for supplies to run their tractors or to run their farm equipment, that that oil and that fuel be available for them. That is the funda mental point. Mr.

Speaker, I don't pretend any more than my hon ourable friend to have any easy or quick answer as to how that pricing formula will be arrived at, between Ottawa and the major producing provinces, which means Alberta and to an extent --a much lesser extent --Saskatchewan; and any positive contribution that we can make to those discussions, we will be happy to make on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

But I stress again that the pricing of the commodity is a secondary matter and what we have to be guaranteeing is that we have the commodity in the first place in Canada, and that we are not dependent, as we are at the present time, for at least 20 percent of our national supply, on off-shore supplies coming from various parts of the world where there is instability. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. I tend to hear a debate developing rather than a question period. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with another question. 2600

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would trust that you wouldn't interpret the remarks by either the First Min ister or myself as suggesting a debate. We are attempt ing to clarify each other's positions. Mr. Speaker, it's interesting to note in the First Min ister's response that he is prepared to continue a policy of reliance upon captivity to the private sector; inter esting and consistent with his party's position pertain ing to the future development and expansion of PetroCan.

And all that the First Minister has indicated, and I asked the First Minister for his comments, that indeed what he has indicated is a continued captivity to the private sector is what is bringing about the pres ent shortages which are presently prevalent in Canada, and what is really required is an expanded road to PetroCan. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. Order please. It seems that my hearing was correct after all. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a couple of questions to the Minister of Community Services concerning a meeting of people in support of day care held last night, attended by myself and the Member for Fort Rouge. I'd like to ask him why he didn't attend, why he didn't send a representative of caucus if he couldn't attend, and whether he will attend a mass demonstration in support of day care to be held here for his convenience on May 6th? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, I did not receive the correspondence from the coalition for day care until approximately less than a week before the meeting, unfortunately, because of the Good Friday and the Easter Monday holidays that the staff in this building enjoy. So that I had already made a previous commitment for that evening, last night, so I was not able to attend. I would like to advise the honourable member that I so advised them by letter, and in the letter I have indicated to them that I would like to meet with their executive in my office whenever it is convenient to them.

Also, I chose not to send a representative. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a couple of questions that were of concern to people at the meeting last night. I would ask him whether he can comment on the allegation made by a citizen from Pine Falls, that rural spaces in the day care program are in danger, there is a danger of further cutbacks, and that these spaces are being transferred to the larger urban centres. I wonder if the Minister has any information in regard to that matter, or whether he has information concerning cutbacks and deterioration of service in the rural area and in the urban areas.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that if he is referring to statements or allegations of a party outside this Cham ber, it is his responsibility to ascertain whether or not those allegations are in fact, fact, before he brings them into the House. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I be lieve that these statements are true and I certainly ac cept responsibility for them. I now convey them to the Minister and ask him whether he can comment on them. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, the statements are not true.

I can advise the House that I believe in the last year or two years there have been no cutbacks in spaces in any day care centre. I would presume he is referring to the maintenance grant, and even though spaces that may not be occupied for short lengths of time or even almost a complete year are not cut off, they still receive the $500 per child or per space, even though the space may not be occupied.

With regard to cutbacks, I would like to advise the House again, and obviously my honourable friend has not read the statement I made in the House, that we have increased the number of day care spaces by 10 percent up to a total of 105 spaces, and also 150 spaces in the Home Care Program, which deals primarily with infant care. Those spaces will be distributed through the province and I would like to advise the honourable members that about 55 percent of the spaces, some 3,000 are in the city of Winnipeg, the remaining 2,600 spaces are dis tributed throughout Manitoba.

So that I can assure the honourable member that we have increased the spaces by 260 roughly this year and it is our intention to main tain that MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm wood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he has any concern about the level of salaries in the industry, that the educational training for day care workers is fairly extensive and some of them feel that they are only being paid at the bare minimum of just a custodial care level, or a babysitting level.

Does he feel that salaries are adequate or does he have any intention of making them a little better? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows that the salaries of the day care workers are set by the non-profit corporations that run the day care centres. Naturally, we're concerned about salaries of anybody whether they be day care workers or other individuals.

With that in mind, that is why we offered the 10 percent increase in space to the existing facilities who could make the most efficient use of them, which would give them an additional $500 a year per space grant towards the salaries.

We also changed the reg ulation dealing with the number of members of the board, that they would now have to have a minimum of five and only 20 percent could be a salaried em ployee, so that the mothers and fathers of the children who are occupying the space would have that input into the system and recognize the fact that some of the salaried employees may need additional funding. So all of these things gave consideration to the interest that the honourable member has with regard to the salaries of day care people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. 2601

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MA. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Attorney-General with reference to the kiss and tell legislation that yesterday went through at second reading. Can I ask the Hon ourable Attorney-General whether he has had any rep resentations written or oral from the Manitoba Bar Association or any committee thereof? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MA. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to this mat ter of divorces with which the Member for lnkster ad vises he has lots of experience, I can advise him that, yes, I have received a recommendation from the Man itoba Bar Association and a subsection thereof on Fam ily Law recommending the legislation. MA. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister to confirm that the legislation is not with regard to divorce, it was with regard to adultery, which hitherto I could not be asked a question about, nor could my honour able friends, so we can't say who is an expert. Does he, Mr.

Speaker, having received a recommendation from the Family Law

section which is one which is quite selective, could the Minister get in touch with the Man itoba Bar Association to see whether this rule, which relates to evidence and not to Family Law, is one which they would care to make representations upon when the bill is at committee? MA. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the legislation was not only recommended by the Family Law subsection but the Law Reform Commission, by the Uniformity Law Conference. It is my practice to ensure that bills are sent to the Manitoba Bar Association as soon as they are introduced in the Legislature so that they have no tice of the bill.

I would certainly be prepared to spe cifically write to them and ask them if they wish to make representations at Law Amendments Committee. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MA. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. In view of the First Minister's statement that he is not interested in ne gotiating sovereignty association, could he clarify his position and that of his government.

Is it the intention to co-operate with other levels of government, other governments, to work toward a renewed renegotiated confederation that could be quite interesting or quite beneficial to keeping the country together and to all the provinces and especially the West. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. L VON: Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for his courtesy in giving me advance notice of his intention to ask a question along these lines.

Ap parently in some of the news reports there was an in dication that that second portion of the proposition that I was stating perhaps did not emerge as clearly as it should have. Because what I was repeating, Mr.

Speaker, was in effect the wording of the statement by the four Western Premiers first enunciated under my prede cessor in this office, in 1977 with his then colleagues, the Premiers of Western Canada and reiterated by the four Premiers at Prince George, B.C. a year ago and subsequently, and it is a two-part statement; (1) that the four Western governments will not negotiate sov ereignty association; but (2) and equally importantly, that we understand that the status quo is not accept able and that we collectively, certainly in the case of this Government of Manitoba, are prepared to enter in co-operatively to discussions for a renewed Confed eration in which the Province of Quebec and the people of Quebec could feel very very much at home and all of the people of Canada could feel very very much at home.

So I welcome the opportunity to make that clar ification for my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ross mere. MA. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. I would like to ask him to confirm whether as a result of reductions in numbers of bed, cutbacks or other restraints or any other causes, patients who are currently in city hos pitals are not being transferred to the Health Sciences Centre for operations such as brain and/or heart sur gery and I am wondering whether he is monitoring this situation. MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm the con tention contained in the honourable member's question but I will certainly check it. I can assure him that we are monitoring the situation with all hospitals in Win nipeg on a virtual daily basis at the present time. MA. SCHROEDER: A further question to the Minister of Health. Could he also check to see whether patients are being discharged from city hospitals, sent home and being told to then contact an ambulance in order to get to the Health Sciences Centre. MR. SHEAMAN: Mr.

Speaker, all I can do is take that question as notice. I have no knowledge or information of that. I would say to the Honourable Member for Rossmere that I expect we will be going into the esti mates of my department within a half hour or so and perhaps rather than attempting to deal with it in ques tion period we should deal with it in that format. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ross mere with a final supplementary. MA. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will take the Minister up on that and ask the Minister of Edu cation what, if anything, he or his department is doing in order to solve the current dispute at Thompson School Division? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, the dispute referred to by the honourable member is be tween the local teachers association and the school board of Thompson. It is a local matter and is not one that we will be interfering in. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: I have a question for the minister in charge of MHRC.

Can the government con- 2602

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 firm that the former socialist government left a large unoccupied building at the corner of Lenore and Wol seley that has become a billboard for the Marxist-Len inists and can I assure the residents of the Laura Secord community, Wolseley community, that the structure will be torn down? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco nomic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, that has been brought before the Board of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and they recommended the demolition of the building and tenders are being called for the demolition of the build ing. I might add that after all of the reviews it would have cost us something like $36,000 an apartment to fix it and we could build a new one for approximately $27,500.00. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer a question addressed to myself by the Member from Churchill.

I'm not sure whether the specific question asked how many claims had been filed with the Compensation Board as related to as bestos or how many had been established so I could cover both eventualities I have found out that in 1979, which was the year in question, three claims were filed with the Compensation Board that were alleged to be asbestos related; one was established, one is to be further reviewed and one was denied by the Compen sation Board. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to address a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask the Minister whether he is knowledgeable about a particular move that has been reported recently. A large garment manufacturer ap parently is looking for a rural Manitoba location and is seeking certain tax concessions from municipalities. I am wondering whether the Honourable Minister is looking into this particular matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Yes, I just re cently received correspondence on that and it is under review at the present time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supplemen tary then. An official of the company involved has stated that existing legislation which prohibits municipalities from cancelling any taxes to encourage a company to locate or expand a business --this is the view of this particular official of that company --I'm asking the Minister whether he agrees that this legislation can be circumvented. MR. GOURLAY: This is part and parcel of the area that we are looking at right now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East with a final supplementary. MR.

EVANS: Can the Minister assure the House, Mr. Speaker, that the spirit of this legislation will be main tained in order to avoid unnecessary additional tax burdens on Manitoba municipalities? MR. GOURLAY: The short answer to that is yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. I would like to ask him whether he has received any com plaints from municipal secretary treasurers concerning the printing of local tax bills? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: No, I haven't.

MR. WALDING: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the same Minister whether some municipalities had already printed their local tax bills before the government made it's change in the amount of the Property Tax Credit Plan? MR. GOURLAY: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, but I'd be pleased to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Community Services. I would like to know, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure all members of the House would like to know what action the gov ernment will be taking with respect to the recent state ment made by the President of the Canadian Indian Lawyers Association indicating that too many native children in our province are being removed from their families and their reserve communities. I would like to ask whether or not the Minister can give us a statement in this regard today? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I can advise the House that there is a subcommittee of the tripartite committee that is dealing with Child Welfare. Also they are, I under stand, reporting to the tripartite committee in the com ing week or two and we'll be looking forward to their recommendations on some of this that the honourable member is now raising the question on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, can the Hon ourable Minister indicate whether or not he will rebut and refute the statement made by the same lady to the effect that the Minister's Department and Director of Child Welfare is only servicing treaty Indian reserves in the province of Manitoba on a life and death and not a preventative social service basis? Will the Minister express a rebuttal or will he elucidate in any regard 2603

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 with respect to the allegation made in that particular statement? MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I can advise the House that there is a general understanding which has been going on for, I think, the past seven years that in the northern regions where there is no Children's Aid So ciety operating that our social workers only go into the reserves when there is a complaint, and usually that complaint might come through from a doctor or from someone within the reserve.

I can tell the honourable member that our department has had some discus sions with some of the tribal councils on this subject and are looking into it, but at the present time the gen eral instruction which has been in existence for seven years is that we only go into the reserves when there is a complaint received. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his candid response and I would ask him, in view of the fact that his department is responsive to complaints, what action he will be taking with respect to the com plaint lodged with his department by Judge Graeme Garson, Provincial Judge Garson.

It was lodged in the case of Director of Child Welfare for the province of Manitoba versus one Ellen Baptiste in the Provincial Judges Court on July 27, 1979 and I quote, Mr. Speaker, Judge Garson, in directing his remarks to members opposite and the Honourable Minister indi cates that the present law in Manitoba makes it oblig atory that the province provide the same social and child care services under The Child Welfare Act to treaty Indians resident in Manitoba as other residents of the province receive. I would ask him in that respect, Mr.

Speaker, whether his department will only answer need, will only address itself to need in this regard when a complaint is lodged by any other citizen, for instance, citizens, resident Brandon, Thompson or Winnipeg. Or do they in fact, as Judge Garson has found, provide differing services, differential services, to those citizens and native citizens within our provincial boundaries? MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, as I said earlier to the honourable member, we are reviewing that particular subject at the present time and I might inform the hon ourable member that I believe it was one of the first things our government did was to set up the tripartite committee to look into the whole question of Indian welfare and the general services provided to reserves in Manitoba. As I indicated earlier, the subcommittee for Indian Child Welfare is reporting in the next week or two and once we get this information, then we will sit down and try and resolve the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR.

ALBERT DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for Fitness and Amateur Sport. Could the Minister confirm that he met with the sale of McKenzie Seeds Committee today? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I had a good meeting with a group of six people from Brandon today, at which time I guess the thing that happened that best expresses the whole meeting was that one of the members of the committee said, It looks like the government's bent on the same intentions and directions that the committee is, namely to save the company for Brandon. That's what the whole exercise is all about, Mr. Speaker, and we will continue to follow that course that action. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winni peg Centre. MR. J.R. (Bud) BOYCE: Mr.

Speaker, promted by the question of the Member for Wolseley, I would ask if the Minister responsible for MHRC would take as notice a question relative to the property which is owned by MHRC, from Preston Avenue to Westminster and from between Lenore and Evanson. Briefly, Mr. Speaker, MHRC became the owner of this particular property or each specific piece of property within that, relative to the negotiations which went back to 1962. MHRC, as the agent of the Crown, owns that property because it was a resolution of a difficult question where the new Grace Hospital should be built and many other things.

But people in the area are concerned about what the plans of the government are for the redevelopment or rehabilitation of that particular question. I would ask the Minister to take as notice the question, and to see if he could advise the House as to what the intention of the government or MHRC is relative to that property. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco nomic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I just assume that the member is referring to the individual houses that were bought down the way from the old Grace Hospital lo cation. I will have that put together. Is that what he's looking for?

MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. In negotiations with the Salvation Army from 1962 to 1967, the Salvation Army in co-operation with the government acquired that property, and then when they built the new hospital out in St. James, rather than redevelop that particular property, it ended up with MHRC as an agency of the Crown. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

I want to ask the Minister, in view of the extemely low water table levels this year, which appears to be five or six feet below last year's tables, could he advise if the Mossy River Dam is closed at the present time, and the Fairford Dam as well? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Natural Resources to ask him whether he has any current information on the surviving polar 2604

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 bear. Apparently, this animal has suffered a relapse and hovers on the brink of death. Can he confirm it? MR. RANSOM: No, Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that. I just arrived back in the city at noon today and I haven't had a recent report. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would now ask the Min ister whether he is prepared to admit that the experi ment was a total failure and should never again be repeated in any way. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that we dis cussed this issue rather extensively during the recent review of my estimates and that it has in hindsight be come rather obvious as to the impact of the experi ments and the tragic results as far as the bears are concerned. I, of course, Mr. Speaker, have given the assurance that there would be no further experiments of that nature, but I think that we have outlined for the honourable member the background involved, the in volvement of the federal government in financing the experiment, and all of the scientific organizations that were backing the experiment at the time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm wood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he can report any practical ramifications of the ex periment. For example, is the government, federal or provincial, prepared to airlift animals out of an area where there is an oil spill, or set up fencing, or what practical knowledge has been gained from this exper iment other than bears get sick and may die from in gesting oil. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to con tact the federal government department that financed the experiment and when an assessment has been made by that department, I would be happy to forward it to the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question also to the same Minister on the polar bear situation. Does the Minister agree with the writer who wrote in the Free Press the suggestion that instead of using polar bears in these experiments, use politicians? MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please.

Questions of agreement with someone else are hardly parliamentary in this Chamber. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to. the Minister of Economic Development, who is also the Minister responsible for Housing. Can he confirm that Ensign Homes, major middle-sized builder, has been put into receivership and is now bankrupt? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco nomic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: No, I can't confirm it, Mr. Speaker, it hasn't been communicated to me whether they have or not. MR.

PARASIUK: As a supplementary to the Minister of Economic Development, who is also Minister re sponsible for Housing, is he aware of other house build ing firms that are on the verge of bankruptcy because of the terrible economic situation in Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, there is no question that we're overbuilt on housing in the province of Man itoba --I have said so many times --apartment blocks, office buildings, and retail floor space.

And if the Hous ing people· are having problems, it's because they don't want to build houses because there are too many on the market right now; it's the same situation pretty well all the way across Canada, and I am sure when my estimates are up, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable members opposite will be pleading with me not to build any more public housing because they must know that there's a very serious situation in the market. - (Interjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Time for Ques tion Period having expired, proceed with Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RETURN: On the Motion of Mr. Evans, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return of the following information: a)Number of staff at the Brandon Mental Health Centre shown by:

(1) Program personnel by team and department,