ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 29 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVlll No. 39 A -- 2:00 p.m., THURSDA Y, 17 APRIL, 1980 Prmted by W T Matw1chyna. Queens Printer. Provmce of Mamtoba

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, 17 April, 1980 Time: 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus­ sell): PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus­ sell): The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. LEN DOMINO: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Petition of Victoria General Hospital praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act respecting Victoria General Hospital. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Com­ mittees ... MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to table a public statement that was made earlier today with regard to the Western Power Grid and I do table it as Chairman of the Study Committee in this regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Report of the Children's Dental Health Program Review Committee under Dr. A.T. Storey. There are copies for the government cau­ cuses and the Liberal member of the Legislature. I also wish to table the report for 1979 of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 1979 Annual Report of the Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, who I would welcome upon his return to Manitoba, after his visit to Ottawa and the statements he's made in Ottawa.

Secondly, I would like to commend the Premier on his change of heart subsequent to a statement on February 22nd that he did not intend to enter into the discussions pertain­ ing to the debate on the sovereignty association in the province of Quebec and ask the Premier whether now he would be prepared to welcome a debate within this Chamber dealing with matters pertaining to the Con­ stitution, the issues presently being debated in Quebec and elsewhere, as such debates have taken place in both the Alberta and Saskatchewan Legislatures. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R.

LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his word of welcome to me on resuming my seat in the Chamber at the latter part of this week. I tell him that the remarks that I made in Ottawa to fulfil! a speaking engagement of some standing there are not new in the sense that this was a reiteration, Mr. Speaker, of re­ marks that the four western Premiers have been mak­ ing with respect to sovereignty association and its incompatibility and unacceptability as a negotiable item.

In the ongoing discussions and deliberations that will take with respect to the constitution at the appro­ priate time when the Prime Minister convenes the First Ministers for that purpose.Thirdly, I can advise my hon­ ourable friend that upcoming, of course, will be the debate on the budget which will be brought down by my colleague, the Minister of Finance, before too long which will afford all members an opportunity to speak broadly and widely on any topic of their concern.

So if my honourable friend is looking for an opportunity to debate that topic, there is every opportunity avail­ able on the Orders of the Day for that purpose.I say to him, however, that one needs to be prudently careful, I think, in these times with respect to statements that are being made, whether by the First Minister of a prov­ ince or Leader of the Opposition or other distinguished members of this House with respect to this matter.

Because, of course, the sovereignty association debate is going on in Quebec and is being watched very care­ fully by, first of all, of course, the people of Quebec and, secondly, by people outside of our boundaries who perhaps do not understand all of the nuances and the details of that debate. But suffice to say, I thank my honourable friend for his concern, for his I think words of commendation and tell him that, of course, we would welcome at any time any contribution to that debate that he would like to make at the appropriate time when the budget debate is on. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the First Min­ ister's response, then to the Minister of Finance, can the Minister of Finance advise us whether or not the budget will be introduced, handed down well in ad­ vance of the May 20th date? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I think it's quite safe to give that undertaking. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in the First Minister's re­ marks and I address this question to the First Minister, by way of request, the First Minister for clarification and I assume I will be receiving as other members will be, a receipt of his remarks made at the National Press 2599

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 Club in Ottawa. But we note that the First Minister in­ dicated that, Manitoba will not limit its own develop­ ment to suit that of Ontario. I wonder if the Minister could assure us that the same time as he makes that statement, that Manitoba has no intention to suit its development to that of the development of the western oil-producing provinces, particularly that of Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the first part of my honourable friend's question, I was speaking from some notes which I will try to reassemble, if pos­ sible, because not all of them were used. The time for speaking was limited. I'll try to reassemble those notes for his benefit. I'm always flattered when the Leader of the Opposition asks me for a copy of my speeches, Mr. Speaker.

He will see that in that context I was say­ ing what I'm sure he and all westerners would subscribe to, namely, that there is a change in the pendulum of economic development swinging to western Canada; and that for too long in the eyes of many of us in the west, and I'm sure in the eyes of the Leader of the Opposition, there has been a tendency to perceive national policies being developed primarily for the benefit of central Canada, in particular Ontario, with the result that we in the west have had to pay higher tariffs, higher imposts of various sorts to support in­ dustry in Ontario.

I was merely rehearsing the argument that I'm sure is familiar to every westerner that, without in any way wishing Ontario any ill luck or any prejudice to their economic system, that fact of life had to be kept in mind in the economic developments as they are occurring in Canada today. I can assure my honourable friend that I was not align­ ing myself against Ontario; I was not aligning the prov­ ince with Alberta; I was trying to speak in what I conceive to be the best long-term interests of all of the people of Manitoba. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then in further supple­ ment to the First Minister, can the First Minister then assure us, in addition to the concerns that he expressed in respect to Ontario tariffs, etc., that the First Minister might be able to assure us that when he utilizes the words self-sufficiency in oil, he does not mean by that way of definition that Manitoba supports the increase in the price of oil to levels at 85 percent of the world price, a policy which would extract millions of dollars from the province of Manitoba to the coffers of Alberta; to the multinational oil companies; to the Alberta Her­ itage Fund; and that in fact the First Minister might, in view of the concern which he expressed vis-a-vis On­ tario, express the same concern re the development of a policy in Manitoba that would reflect the need for stronger central government so that the wealth of Can­ ada can be more fairly distributed from east to west.

MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of repeating my­ self for the third time I believe in this session, I refer my honourable friend to a copy of the opening state­ ment that I made to the Energy Conference last No­ vember 12, 1979. I tried to ensure that a copy of that was delivered to my honourable friend so that he could read those words of wisdom and satisfy himself that the statement we made was in the best interests of Manitoba. If my honourable friend is looking for a short definition of self-sufficiency, he will find it in that statement. But very briefly, Mr.

Speaker, it is a price which is not tied necessarily to the world price, but a price at which the undeveloped resources, that is oil-producing tar sands and heavy oil sources in Alberta, can be devel­ oped within Canada for the benefit of all Canadians. Because, Mr. Speaker, our problem, if I may say so with respect to my honourable friend, our problem is not so much one of pricing, Mr. Speaker, our problem is one of guaranteeing the continuation of the supply of fossil fuel to the people of Canada.

And while too often we get hung up on the arguments that are taking place between Alberta and Ontario and the federal government with respect to pricing, may I suggest, Sir, with the greatest of respect, that is a secondary item. The important problem in Canada today is to develop a guaranteed supply of oil and gas for our agricultural industry, for all of the fundamental industries in this country that need it, and price is only one factor in guaranteeing that supply. That's what we mean by self­ sufficiency. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister has made reference to a policy pertaining to self-suffi­ ciency. Is the First Minister, at this stage, prepared to examine other formulas which had been advanced be­ yond that of Peter Loughheed in Alberta? Policies that would reflect a blended formula; policies that would ensure that there would be less moneys utilized by oil companies for non-oil producing purposes; policies that would ensure that there would be less rip-off in­ sofar as oil revenues by either the province of Alberta or by the multinational oil companies? MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend I know is the prisoner to some extent of some of his mythologies about the private sector and the devel­ opment of oil in Canada and such extraneous matters, if I may say so, Mr. Speaker, as to the ownership of oil supplies and so on. I think of much more fundamental concern, Sir, is whether or not, when our farmers in Manitoba phone up the bulk dealers a year, two years, three years down the road and ask for supplies to run their tractors or to run their farm equipment, that that oil and that fuel be available for them. That is the funda­ mental point. Mr.

Speaker, I don't pretend any more than my hon­ ourable friend to have any easy or quick answer as to how that pricing formula will be arrived at, between Ottawa and the major producing provinces, which means Alberta and to an extent --a much lesser extent --Saskatchewan; and any positive contribution that we can make to those discussions, we will be happy to make on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

But I stress again that the pricing of the commodity is a secondary matter and what we have to be guaranteeing is that we have the commodity in the first place in Canada, and that we are not dependent, as we are at the present time, for at least 20 percent of our national supply, on off-shore supplies coming from various parts of the world where there is instability. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. I tend to hear a debate developing rather than a question period. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with another question. 2600

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would trust that you wouldn't interpret the remarks by either the First Min­ ister or myself as suggesting a debate. We are attempt­ ing to clarify each other's positions. Mr. Speaker, it's interesting to note in the First Min­ ister's response that he is prepared to continue a policy of reliance upon captivity to the private sector; inter­ esting and consistent with his party's position pertain­ ing to the future development and expansion of PetroCan.

And all that the First Minister has indicated, and I asked the First Minister for his comments, that indeed what he has indicated is a continued captivity to the private sector is what is bringing about the pres­ ent shortages which are presently prevalent in Canada, and what is really required is an expanded road to PetroCan. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. Order please. It seems that my hearing was correct after all. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a couple of questions to the Minister of Community Services concerning a meeting of people in support of day care held last night, attended by myself and the Member for Fort Rouge. I'd like to ask him why he didn't attend, why he didn't send a representative of caucus if he couldn't attend, and whether he will attend a mass demonstration in support of day care to be held here for his convenience on May 6th? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, I did not receive the correspondence from the coalition for day care until approximately less than a week before the meeting, unfortunately, because of the Good Friday and the Easter Monday holidays that the staff in this building enjoy. So that I had already made a previous commitment for that evening, last night, so I was not able to attend. I would like to advise the honourable member that I so advised them by letter, and in the letter I have indicated to them that I would like to meet with their executive in my office whenever it is convenient to them.

Also, I chose not to send a representative. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a couple of questions that were of concern to people at the meeting last night. I would ask him whether he can comment on the allegation made by a citizen from Pine Falls, that rural spaces in the day care program are in danger, there is a danger of further cutbacks, and that these spaces are being transferred to the larger urban centres. I wonder if the Minister has any information in regard to that matter, or whether he has information concerning cutbacks and deterioration of service in the rural area and in the urban areas.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that if he is referring to statements or allegations of a party outside this Cham­ ber, it is his responsibility to ascertain whether or not those allegations are in fact, fact, before he brings them into the House. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I be­ lieve that these statements are true and I certainly ac­ cept responsibility for them. I now convey them to the Minister and ask him whether he can comment on them. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, the statements are not true.

I can advise the House that I believe in the last year or two years there have been no cutbacks in spaces in any day care centre. I would presume he is referring to the maintenance grant, and even though spaces that may not be occupied for short lengths of time or even almost a complete year are not cut off, they still receive the $500 per child or per space, even though the space may not be occupied.

With regard to cutbacks, I would like to advise the House again, and obviously my honourable friend has not read the statement I made in the House, that we have increased the number of day care spaces by 10 percent up to a total of 105 spaces, and also 150 spaces in the Home Care Program, which deals primarily with infant care. Those spaces will be distributed through the province and I would like to advise the honourable members that about 55 percent of the spaces, some 3,000 are in the city of Winnipeg, the remaining 2,600 spaces are dis­ tributed throughout Manitoba.

So that I can assure the honourable member that we have increased the spaces by 260 roughly this year and it is our intention to main­ tain that MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm­ wood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he has any concern about the level of salaries in the industry, that the educational training for day care workers is fairly extensive and some of them feel that they are only being paid at the bare minimum of just a custodial care level, or a babysitting level.

Does he feel that salaries are adequate or does he have any intention of making them a little better? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows that the salaries of the day care workers are set by the non-profit corporations that run the day care centres. Naturally, we're concerned about salaries of anybody whether they be day care workers or other individuals.

With that in mind, that is why we offered the 10 percent increase in space to the existing facilities who could make the most efficient use of them, which would give them an additional $500 a year per space grant towards the salaries.

We also changed the reg­ ulation dealing with the number of members of the board, that they would now have to have a minimum of five and only 20 percent could be a salaried em­ ployee, so that the mothers and fathers of the children who are occupying the space would have that input into the system and recognize the fact that some of the salaried employees may need additional funding. So all of these things gave consideration to the interest that the honourable member has with regard to the salaries of day care people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. 2601

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MA. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Attorney-General with reference to the kiss and tell legislation that yesterday went through at second reading. Can I ask the Hon­ ourable Attorney-General whether he has had any rep­ resentations written or oral from the Manitoba Bar Association or any committee thereof? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MA. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to this mat­ ter of divorces with which the Member for lnkster ad­ vises he has lots of experience, I can advise him that, yes, I have received a recommendation from the Man­ itoba Bar Association and a subsection thereof on Fam­ ily Law recommending the legislation. MA. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister to confirm that the legislation is not with regard to divorce, it was with regard to adultery, which hitherto I could not be asked a question about, nor could my honour­ able friends, so we can't say who is an expert. Does he, Mr.

Speaker, having received a recommendation from the Family Law

section which is one which is quite selective, could the Minister get in touch with the Man­ itoba Bar Association to see whether this rule, which relates to evidence and not to Family Law, is one which they would care to make representations upon when the bill is at committee? MA. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the legislation was not only recommended by the Family Law subsection but the Law Reform Commission, by the Uniformity Law Conference. It is my practice to ensure that bills are sent to the Manitoba Bar Association as soon as they are introduced in the Legislature so that they have no­ tice of the bill.

I would certainly be prepared to spe­ cifically write to them and ask them if they wish to make representations at Law Amendments Committee. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MA. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. In view of the First Minister's statement that he is not interested in ne­ gotiating sovereignty association, could he clarify his position and that of his government.

Is it the intention to co-operate with other levels of government, other governments, to work toward a renewed renegotiated confederation that could be quite interesting or quite beneficial to keeping the country together and to all the provinces and especially the West. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. L VON: Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for his courtesy in giving me advance notice of his intention to ask a question along these lines.

Ap­ parently in some of the news reports there was an in­ dication that that second portion of the proposition that I was stating perhaps did not emerge as clearly as it should have. Because what I was repeating, Mr.

Speaker, was in effect the wording of the statement by the four Western Premiers first enunciated under my prede­ cessor in this office, in 1977 with his then colleagues, the Premiers of Western Canada and reiterated by the four Premiers at Prince George, B.C. a year ago and subsequently, and it is a two-part statement; (1) that the four Western governments will not negotiate sov­ ereignty association; but (2) and equally importantly, that we understand that the status quo is not accept­ able and that we collectively, certainly in the case of this Government of Manitoba, are prepared to enter in co-operatively to discussions for a renewed Confed­ eration in which the Province of Quebec and the people of Quebec could feel very very much at home and all of the people of Canada could feel very very much at home.

So I welcome the opportunity to make that clar­ ification for my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ross mere. MA. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. I would like to ask him to confirm whether as a result of reductions in numbers of bed, cutbacks or other restraints or any other causes, patients who are currently in city hos­ pitals are not being transferred to the Health Sciences Centre for operations such as brain and/or heart sur­ gery and I am wondering whether he is monitoring this situation. MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm the con­ tention contained in the honourable member's question but I will certainly check it. I can assure him that we are monitoring the situation with all hospitals in Win­ nipeg on a virtual daily basis at the present time. MA. SCHROEDER: A further question to the Minister of Health. Could he also check to see whether patients are being discharged from city hospitals, sent home and being told to then contact an ambulance in order to get to the Health Sciences Centre. MR. SHEAMAN: Mr.

Speaker, all I can do is take that question as notice. I have no knowledge or information of that. I would say to the Honourable Member for Rossmere that I expect we will be going into the esti­ mates of my department within a half hour or so and perhaps rather than attempting to deal with it in ques­ tion period we should deal with it in that format. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ross­ mere with a final supplementary. MA. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will take the Minister up on that and ask the Minister of Edu­ cation what, if anything, he or his department is doing in order to solve the current dispute at Thompson School Division? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, the dispute referred to by the honourable member is be­ tween the local teachers association and the school board of Thompson. It is a local matter and is not one that we will be interfering in. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: I have a question for the minister in charge of MHRC.

Can the government con- 2602

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 firm that the former socialist government left a large unoccupied building at the corner of Lenore and Wol­ seley that has become a billboard for the Marxist-Len­ inists and can I assure the residents of the Laura Secord community, Wolseley community, that the structure will be torn down? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco­ nomic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, that has been brought before the Board of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and they recommended the demolition of the building and tenders are being called for the demolition of the build­ ing. I might add that after all of the reviews it would have cost us something like $36,000 an apartment to fix it and we could build a new one for approximately $27,500.00. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer a question addressed to myself by the Member from Churchill.

I'm not sure whether the specific question asked how many claims had been filed with the Compensation Board as related to as­ bestos or how many had been established so I could cover both eventualities I have found out that in 1979, which was the year in question, three claims were filed with the Compensation Board that were alleged to be asbestos related; one was established, one is to be further reviewed and one was denied by the Compen­ sation Board. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran­ don East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to address a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask the Minister whether he is knowledgeable about a particular move that has been reported recently. A large garment manufacturer ap­ parently is looking for a rural Manitoba location and is seeking certain tax concessions from municipalities. I am wondering whether the Honourable Minister is looking into this particular matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Yes, I just re­ cently received correspondence on that and it is under review at the present time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran­ don East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supplemen­ tary then. An official of the company involved has stated that existing legislation which prohibits municipalities from cancelling any taxes to encourage a company to locate or expand a business --this is the view of this particular official of that company --I'm asking the Minister whether he agrees that this legislation can be circumvented. MR. GOURLAY: This is part and parcel of the area that we are looking at right now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran­ don East with a final supplementary. MR.

EVANS: Can the Minister assure the House, Mr. Speaker, that the spirit of this legislation will be main­ tained in order to avoid unnecessary additional tax burdens on Manitoba municipalities? MR. GOURLAY: The short answer to that is yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. I would like to ask him whether he has received any com­ plaints from municipal secretary treasurers concerning the printing of local tax bills? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: No, I haven't.

MR. WALDING: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the same Minister whether some municipalities had already printed their local tax bills before the government made it's change in the amount of the Property Tax Credit Plan? MR. GOURLAY: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, but I'd be pleased to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Community Services. I would like to know, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure all members of the House would like to know what action the gov­ ernment will be taking with respect to the recent state­ ment made by the President of the Canadian Indian Lawyers Association indicating that too many native children in our province are being removed from their families and their reserve communities. I would like to ask whether or not the Minister can give us a statement in this regard today? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I can advise the House that there is a subcommittee of the tripartite committee that is dealing with Child Welfare. Also they are, I under­ stand, reporting to the tripartite committee in the com­ ing week or two and we'll be looking forward to their recommendations on some of this that the honourable member is now raising the question on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, can the Hon­ ourable Minister indicate whether or not he will rebut and refute the statement made by the same lady to the effect that the Minister's Department and Director of Child Welfare is only servicing treaty Indian reserves in the province of Manitoba on a life and death and not a preventative social service basis? Will the Minister express a rebuttal or will he elucidate in any regard 2603

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 with respect to the allegation made in that particular statement? MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I can advise the House that there is a general understanding which has been going on for, I think, the past seven years that in the northern regions where there is no Children's Aid So­ ciety operating that our social workers only go into the reserves when there is a complaint, and usually that complaint might come through from a doctor or from someone within the reserve.

I can tell the honourable member that our department has had some discus­ sions with some of the tribal councils on this subject and are looking into it, but at the present time the gen­ eral instruction which has been in existence for seven years is that we only go into the reserves when there is a complaint received. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his candid response and I would ask him, in view of the fact that his department is responsive to complaints, what action he will be taking with respect to the com­ plaint lodged with his department by Judge Graeme Garson, Provincial Judge Garson.

It was lodged in the case of Director of Child Welfare for the province of Manitoba versus one Ellen Baptiste in the Provincial Judges Court on July 27, 1979 and I quote, Mr. Speaker, Judge Garson, in directing his remarks to members opposite and the Honourable Minister indi­ cates that the present law in Manitoba makes it oblig­ atory that the province provide the same social and child care services under The Child Welfare Act to treaty Indians resident in Manitoba as other residents of the province receive. I would ask him in that respect, Mr.

Speaker, whether his department will only answer need, will only address itself to need in this regard when a complaint is lodged by any other citizen, for instance, citizens, resident Brandon, Thompson or Winnipeg. Or do they in fact, as Judge Garson has found, provide differing services, differential services, to those citizens and native citizens within our provincial boundaries? MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, as I said earlier to the honourable member, we are reviewing that particular subject at the present time and I might inform the hon­ ourable member that I believe it was one of the first things our government did was to set up the tripartite committee to look into the whole question of Indian welfare and the general services provided to reserves in Manitoba. As I indicated earlier, the subcommittee for Indian Child Welfare is reporting in the next week or two and once we get this information, then we will sit down and try and resolve the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR.

ALBERT DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for Fitness and Amateur Sport. Could the Minister confirm that he met with the sale of McKenzie Seeds Committee today? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I had a good meeting with a group of six people from Brandon today, at which time I guess the thing that happened that best expresses the whole meeting was that one of the members of the committee said, It looks like the government's bent on the same intentions and directions that the committee is, namely to save the company for Brandon. That's what the whole exercise is all about, Mr. Speaker, and we will continue to follow that course that action. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winni­ peg Centre. MR. J.R. (Bud) BOYCE: Mr.

Speaker, promted by the question of the Member for Wolseley, I would ask if the Minister responsible for MHRC would take as notice a question relative to the property which is owned by MHRC, from Preston Avenue to Westminster and from between Lenore and Evanson. Briefly, Mr. Speaker, MHRC became the owner of this particular property or each specific piece of property within that, relative to the negotiations which went back to 1962. MHRC, as the agent of the Crown, owns that property because it was a resolution of a difficult question where the new Grace Hospital should be built and many other things.

But people in the area are concerned about what the plans of the government are for the redevelopment or rehabilitation of that particular question. I would ask the Minister to take as notice the question, and to see if he could advise the House as to what the intention of the government or MHRC is relative to that property. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco­ nomic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I just assume that the member is referring to the individual houses that were bought down the way from the old Grace Hospital lo­ cation. I will have that put together. Is that what he's looking for?

MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. In negotiations with the Salvation Army from 1962 to 1967, the Salvation Army in co-operation with the government acquired that property, and then when they built the new hospital out in St. James, rather than redevelop that particular property, it ended up with MHRC as an agency of the Crown. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

I want to ask the Minister, in view of the extemely low water table levels this year, which appears to be five or six feet below last year's tables, could he advise if the Mossy River Dam is closed at the present time, and the Fairford Dam as well? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Natural Resources to ask him whether he has any current information on the surviving polar 2604

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 bear. Apparently, this animal has suffered a relapse and hovers on the brink of death. Can he confirm it? MR. RANSOM: No, Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that. I just arrived back in the city at noon today and I haven't had a recent report. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would now ask the Min­ ister whether he is prepared to admit that the experi­ ment was a total failure and should never again be repeated in any way. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that we dis­ cussed this issue rather extensively during the recent review of my estimates and that it has in hindsight be­ come rather obvious as to the impact of the experi­ ments and the tragic results as far as the bears are concerned. I, of course, Mr. Speaker, have given the assurance that there would be no further experiments of that nature, but I think that we have outlined for the honourable member the background involved, the in­ volvement of the federal government in financing the experiment, and all of the scientific organizations that were backing the experiment at the time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm­ wood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he can report any practical ramifications of the ex­ periment. For example, is the government, federal or provincial, prepared to airlift animals out of an area where there is an oil spill, or set up fencing, or what practical knowledge has been gained from this exper­ iment other than bears get sick and may die from in­ gesting oil. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to con­ tact the federal government department that financed the experiment and when an assessment has been made by that department, I would be happy to forward it to the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question also to the same Minister on the polar bear situation. Does the Minister agree with the writer who wrote in the Free Press the suggestion that instead of using polar bears in these experiments, use politicians? MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please.

Questions of agreement with someone else are hardly parliamentary in this Chamber. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to. the Minister of Economic Development, who is also the Minister responsible for Housing. Can he confirm that Ensign Homes, major middle-sized builder, has been put into receivership and is now bankrupt? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco­ nomic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: No, I can't confirm it, Mr. Speaker, it hasn't been communicated to me whether they have or not. MR.

PARASIUK: As a supplementary to the Minister of Economic Development, who is also Minister re­ sponsible for Housing, is he aware of other house build­ ing firms that are on the verge of bankruptcy because of the terrible economic situation in Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, there is no question that we're overbuilt on housing in the province of Man­ itoba --I have said so many times --apartment blocks, office buildings, and retail floor space.

And if the Hous­ ing people· are having problems, it's because they don't want to build houses because there are too many on the market right now; it's the same situation pretty well all the way across Canada, and I am sure when my estimates are up, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable members opposite will be pleading with me not to build any more public housing because they must know that there's a very serious situation in the market. -­ (Interjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Time for Ques­ tion Period having expired, proceed with Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RETURN: On the Motion of Mr. Evans, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return of the following information: a)Number of staff at the Brandon Mental Health Centre shown by:

(1) Program personnel by team and department,

(2) Resource personnel by department,

(3) Program staff to patient ratio by team and by de­ partment, as of March 31, 1977; March 31, 1978; March 31, 1979 and February 10, 1980. There was a typographical error in the original state­ ment, Mr. Speaker, and I would like that corrected if I could, so that last one should read February 10, 1980. b)Number of staff positions at the Brandon Mental Health Centre shown by: ( 1) Program personnel by team and by department,

(2) Resource personnel by department,

(3) Program staff to patient ratio by team and by de­ partment, as of March 31, 1977; March 31, 1978; March 31 , 1979; and February 10, 1980. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, that Order for Return is acceptable to the government. MOTION carried. ORDER FOR RETURN: On the Motion of Mr. Evans, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return of the following information: a)Number of staff at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre shown by:

(1) Program personnel by department, 2605

Thursday, 17 April, 1980

(2) Resource personnel by department,

(3) Program staff to patient ratio by team and by de­ partment, as of March 31, 1977; March 31, 1978; March 31, 1979; and March 31 , 1980. b)Number of staff positions at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre shown by:

(1) Program personnel by department,

(2) Resource personnel by department,

(3) Program staff to patient ratio by team and by de­ partment, as of March 31, 1977; March 31, 1978; March 31, 1979; and March 31, 1980. MOTION presented. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, that Order for Return is acceptable to the government. MOTION carried. ORDER FOR RETURN : On the Motion of Mr. Evans, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return of the following information: a)Number of staff at the Manitoba School for Retar­ dation at Portage la Prairie shown by:

(1) Program personnel by department,

(2) Resource personnel by department,

(3) Program staff to patient ratio by department, as of March 31, 1977; March 31, 1978; March 31, 1979; and March 31, 1980. b)Number of staff positisons at the Manitoba School for Retardation at Portage la Prairie shown by:

(1) Program personnel by team and by department,

(2) Resource personnel by department,

(3) Program staff to patient ratio by team and by de­ partment, as of March 31, 1977; March 31, 1978; March 31, 1979; and March 31, 1980. MOTION presented. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, that Order for Return is acceptable to the government. MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, first I would like to con­ firm that the committee on Economic Development will meet next Tuesday, not next Thursday, but in the week after we will meet on Tuesday and Thursday until their business is comspleted.

And I'd also wish to confirm agreement with Opposition House Leader that follow­ ing the Department of Cultural Affairs, the Department of Consumer Affairs will follow Cultural Affairs and Urban Affairs will then follow Consumer Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: On a point of order in respect to procedure. Can the Honourable House Leader indicate what

section will be discussed first on Tuesday in the Economic Development Committee. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I will consult with the Ministers involved and advise the Honourable House Leader. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, on a point of order in respect to procedures. Can the Honourable House Leader in­ dicate what

section will be discussed first on Tuesday in the Economic Development Committee? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I'll consult with the Min­ isters involved and advise the Opposition House Leader later today. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House re­ solved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Hon­ ourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources. CONCU RRENT COM MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -- CULTUR AL AFFAIRS AND HISTORICAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are in the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources and I'll call on Item 1. The Honourable Minister. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Thank you very much, Mr.

Chairman. I'd like to begin, Mr. Chairman, by saying that it is with great enthusiasm that I speak today to introduce the first estimates of the newly con­ stituted Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources. Indeed I should think that all members present would share this enthusiasm inasmuch as the creation of the department affirms my government's belief in the importance of culture and heritage.

The creation of a department exclusively dedicated to cultural affairs and historical resources can be seen as a shift in the organization of government which mirrors the results of a fundamental change in society's atti­ tudes towards work and play; a change which has been accelerating in step with the increases in leisure time that accompanies succeeding waves of technicological innovation. The department's creation is a significant initiation because it acknowledges that economic and physical well-being cannot be separated from the spir­ itual well-being of a healthy society.

The creation of the department may also be seen as a shift in the organization of government which signals the advent of a new decade; a decade during which it may be expected that as more and more leisure time becomes available to citizens they will become more and more interested in cultural activity both as con­ sumers and participants. Thus the department's cre­ ation is a particularly timely initiative because it anticipates that fresh new approaches will be needed 2606

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 in the management of culture and heritage of the prov­ ince and of the nation. It recognizes that swift action will be required to prevent the aggravation of persistent problems and to take advantage of emerging opportunities. In discharging this mandate my department intends to encourage and foster the development of the prov­ ince's cultural assets and heritage. This means that while giving broad policy leadership government in­ tends to support, rather than direct, cultural evolution.

The government believes that people in all corners of this province feel a need to express themselves through their creativity. The department's role will be to create a positive environment within which creative activity may flourish. The department realizes that this objec­ tive goes beyond direct financial assistance. A creative approach of supplying organizational and consultative help may also be an effective form of support. I should like to take a few moments to mention the highlights of the department's accomplishments as well as its plans for the coming year.

The department has been pursuing active liaison with the federal ministry of the Secretary of State and the other provinces. I should like to report that following the Conference of Ministers of Cultural Affairs held in New Brunswick last fall a committee of four Deputy Ministers was estab­ lished to hold regular meetings for the purpose of de­ veloping better mechanisms for federal/provincial co­ operation. I am most pleased to note that my Deputy Minister, Mr. Rene Prefontaine represents the western provinces on this committee. Already there is visible improvement in relations between Ottawa and the provinces.

Thanks to the very positive climate of co-operation, the Secretary of State has already provided invaluable services to us in meeting the obligations of

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. In that respect it has seconded to us two individuals to translate the Speech from the Throne and is currently translating for us other docu­ ments which will appear in the House during the current session. The Province of Quebec has also been most generous in its assistance having seconded three legal translators to us. The Department's priority, however, will continue to be to maintain and develop an intimate relationship with the people of Manitoba and their cultural organizations.

I should like to underscore the value of such exchange by reference to the government-appointed Cultural Policy Review Committee which submitted its final re­ port in December last year. During the course of its deliberations the committee received almost 100 sub­ missions from groups and individuals living in every part of the province, 25 communities in all. The work of this dedicated group of citizen volunteers has met with .general approval from the cultural com­ munity of our province and indeed the nation. A column written by Dr.

Arnold Edinborough, President of the Council for Business and the Arts in Canada appearing in The Financial Post of March 15 stated: The Mani­ toba Review Committee document is a marvel of con­ ciseness, of prudent recommendations and of understanding about the situation to which the com­ mittee addressed itself. As I have stated on other occasions, the government is in general agreement with the recommendations of the report and has initiated an active implementation strategy.

Among the committee's most important sug­ gestions is an increase in the overall support from the government of Manitoba to cultural activity. I am very pleased to state that my department's spending esti­ mates are in line with the committee's guidelines. The department's plans for the coming year call for the expenditure of nearly $9.5 million. This includes $7,- 445,000 for cultural programs and historic resources. With the half million advance payments to public li­ braries for 1980 this represents an increase of 16 per­ cent over last year.

The major reasons for the increase in expenditures are as follows: With respect to cultural grants, the esti­ mates provide for the increased support to the major cultural institutions --including the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature and the Winnipeg Art Gallery, as well as the Manitoba Arts Council --the Manitoba Arts Council is, of course, responsible for supporting the major performing arts organizations.As government support to the Arts Council has levelled funding of the performing arts group has fallen behind in real terms. As a result, some of the groups have encountered se­ vere financial problems.

I should like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that these groups are not alone in their dif­ ficulties as evidenced by the results of the annual sur­ vey of the performing arts organizations, conducted by the Council for Business and the Arts in Canada. The results show that 66 of the 94 largest performing arts organizations in Canada reported deficits for the fiscal year 1978-79. Thirty-four of these organizations re­ ported deficits in excess of $1 00,000.00. The Manitoba major performing arts organizations in this province are, by and large, well supported by the community.

It is my belief that they are deserving of increased sup­ port from all sectors. As a result my department has substantially increased the Legislative appropriation for the Manitoba Arts Council. The Council's growing reliance on lottery revenues as a source of income to finance the ongoing operations of the major groups was highlighted by the Cultural Policy Review Com­ mittee as a matter of some concern. In accordance with the recommendations of the com­ mittee, we are attempting to reverse this trend, thereby reducing reliance on these ongoing commitments on lotteries, by increasing support from the tax base.

This is why my department's estimates for the 1980-81 fiscal year include a grant of $604,000 to the Manitoba Arts Council, an increase of 44 percent over the previous year. All indications point to the fact that lottery rev­ enues will not produce any increase for the Council in the coming fiscal year. We are hopeful that this increase will enable the Council to raise its grants to our many worthwhile cultural groups.

It is important to note that the proposed funding for­ mula for the major groups will require a substantial effort on their part to help themselves through a more aggressive approach for funds from the corporate com­ munity and individual citizens. This is not an impossible task. We are delighted to offer the Royal Winnipeg Ballet as an example of the success of this approach. In two short years they have eliminated a deficit and balanced their budget. As you know, I have taken the initiative in discussing a deficit reduction plan for the financially troubled Win­ nipeg Symphony Orchestra.

It is my belief that with a concerted effort from the Symphony itself, along with the three levels of government, we will be able to re­ direct the orchestra's fortunes. In the matter of the Provincial Archives, as I have in­ dicated previously, the department will require an in- 2607

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 crease principally and staff, in order that it may honour the terms of the agreement signed in July of 1973, by the government of the day and the Hudson's Bay Com­ pany. I should like to point out that interest in the Hud­ son's Bay's Company Archives, is considerably greater than was anticipated at the time of the signing of the agreement. In 1979, researchers made more than 2,000 visits to consult the Hudson's Bay Archives. By contrast in 1973, Beaver House in England received less than 300 such visits.

The estimates accordingly make pro­ vision for the satisfaction of increased demands over and beyond the level occurring in 1973. In the area of Public Library Services, as I announced earlier, the department has adopted a new funding for­ mula on the basis of which support to the public li­ braries will be increased. Following intensive review, it was concluded that governmental support of public libraries was lagging behind that provided by munici­ palities.

Accordingly, we have instituted a new funding formula which provides for more equitable sharing with municipalities of the costs of providing library services. In passing I should point out, Mr. Chairman, that there has been some misinterpretation by the media as to the department's intent in the area of library support. I should like to advise that, subsequent to the new fund­ ing formula being approved, the department made ad­ vance payment of library grants for 1980 in the amount of $500,000.00. This was but a partial payment towards the 1980 grants to libraries but it was made during our 1979-80 fiscal year.

As members are aware, libraries, like municipalities, operate on the basis of the calendar year. With the additional provision of $1, 400,000 for library grants for 1980, the estimates provide for an increase of roughly $250,000.00. Regarding Historic Resources, my department is cur­ rently researching a series of options which will lead to a fresh approach. As Manitobans, we may be justly proud of our rich heritage and tradition. I consider it a priority to determine effective ways to create an awareness of our history by raising the profile of our historic resources.

Within the next several months I hope to announce exciting developments in this field. In the matter of translation services, in spite of the very welcome assistance that we have received from the governments of Canada and Quebec, as you know the department will require a major increase in the staff and services in order to meet the requirements of the Supreme Court decision. The estimates provide for an increase of nearly $500,000 of which $300,000 is for the staff and administration and the balance for the payments to freelance translators and interpreters who need not be brought on staff permanently.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, let me reiterate my de­ partment's commitment to the continuing vibrance of our province's cultural life. As citizens, we are all en­ riched by the presence of the performing arts, mu­ seums, libraries, individual creative people and their relationships with the public. We shudder at the thought of living without them. When our society is judged by the historians of the future, they will talk about our contribution to the unbroken evolution of the human spirit. It is my pledge, Mr.

Chairman, to ensure that the people of Manitoba may feel proud of their govern­ ment's commitment to this noble goal. MR. CHAIRMAN: As the committee knows, we will be returning on Resolution No. 43, to 1.(

a) and 1.(

b) at the end of the estimates, so 1.(c)( 1) --the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I want to make a general response to what the Minister said. I want to begin by explaining that most of my colleagues are in the House listening to the first opening salvos of the month-long debate on the Department of Health, and the remainder are in the caucus room listening to one of Wagner's operas.

The point that I would like to make is that I think that the Minister knows that I, too, am a strong supporter of the arts and that there are undoubtedly some nu­ ances and some differences of opinion between us, but that the goal is the same, namely, to attempt to provide greater financial support, some general encourage­ ment and some new directions for the major cultural corporations and organizations in the province of Man­ itoba. I happen to believe that the thing that makes Winnipeg unique in the province of Manitoba and that differentiates it from some of the other cities --and I know, Mr.

Chairman, that only in a few hours you are going to be standing up in the Chamber and extolling the virtues of Saskatchewan and Alberta, bringing them fraternal birthday greetings.

I still believe that we in Manitoba are fortunate in having a whole series of cul­ tural organizations which have a long and proud track record, starting I guess with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, the Winnipeg Art Gallery, the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature, the Manitoba Theatre Centre, our whole ethnic range of organizations. some outstanding Ukrainian organiza­ tions, Folklorama, and on and on and on and on.

To me this is what makes it worth living in Winnipeg since I happen to be a Winnipegger.Also, of course, I believe that people throughout the province when they come here go to these facilities; some of our organizations tour the province. That is one area that I would ask the Minister to make some general remarks on because I believe that in order to get support from the province as a whole it's essential that the various cultural groups, many of which or most of which, are located in Win­ nipeg must get out of their buildings and must travel the province.

I know that for years, for example, the Winnipeg Ballet has jumped into a bus and rattled around North Dakota, Minnesota, etc., certainly not in very luxurious modes of travel or accommodation. I have the impression, possibly mistaken impression, that they don't do as much now as they used to in the way of travel and I recall bumping into the company one time in Flin Flon. I was up in Flin Flon in 1959 and I noticed that they, too, were there and I went to see their performance.

When it comes to some of the other organizations, the Symphony, I don't know how much touring they do in Manitoba but I believe they should do a fair amount. The Art Gallery, through its extension program, I believe should do a fair amount and on and on.

Some of these things are not as portable; I mean, you can't take the Planetarium on a truck and move it around, but you can take the personnel of the Pla­ netarium and have them visit the province and so on.So this, I think, achieves a number of things; one is that it, first of all, gains support in the broad sense of po­ litical support, a small 'p' for these organizations; it also I think advances culture in the province and it also raises the level of intelligence, and intellectual and cul­ tural stimulation throughout the province. I realize that there are small museums and that there are acting 2608

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 companies and that there are libraries and so on throughout Manitoba, and that this isn't a case of breaking new ground. In many cases there is a fertile ground there that I think has to be cultivated. I also want to say, and I do so with some hesitation, that I am not too pleased with the statements of some city councillors, including some members of the New Democratic Party, who take what I regard as deplorable red-neck positions on the arts and on culture.

I certainly blush every time I read something in the paper that comes from a member of my own party who happens to be a city councillor. When it's from another party I become angry. So in both cases I turn red, but one from embarrassment and the other one from a cultural and intellectual repulsion. So I would say, Mr. Chair­ man, that although the Minister and I probably share some of the same goals I intend to a large extent under­ line some of what I would call errors and omissions during the Minister's term.

I also want to say on a personal basis that I was pleased and delighted that one of my cousins was appointed by the Minister. I don't know if she knows who that is and I don't intend to tell her, but that one of her new cultural correspondents is a cousin of mine and I think somebody who's highly qualified in that area, not of the same political persuasion, and therefore regarded by my side of the family as one of the black sheep. But, anyway, I want you to know that there are Doerns on both sides of the political spectrum but on the same side of the cultural spectrum.

So I just wonder if the Minister could perhaps make some general comment about the present policies of the major cultural organ­ izations in Manitoba --I'm thinking, in particular, about the major ones that are based in Winnipeg --as to what their present policy and programs are in terms of tour­ ing Manitoba. I'm very interested in what support they can achieve from the government and also about per­ haps further enrichment or new directions in this area.I have to say here again, Mr.

Chairman, that when I was teaching, which is now some 10 to 15 years ago, I saw on a number of occasions representatives from the Winnipeg Ballet in Winnipeg High Schools, and from the Manitoba Theatre Centre, and I would say that the response was just absolutely staggering. I think they made an overwhelmingly favourable impression on stu­ dents and in so doing cultivated a potential audience.

So I would ask the Minister if she could enlighten us as to what is being done now and whether she has any new directions and new funding and new encourage­ ment to get the major cultural organizations out of their buildings and into the various centres throughout the province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MRS. PRICE: The Member for Elmwood will be pleased to know that there's quite an extensive concert tour being arranged and has already been initiated by the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. They had a very trium­ phant tour to Thompson and Steinbach.

Right now they are negotiating to perform six concerts in Brandon. As you know the bulk of the touring and the concerts, the professional touring, is set up largely through the Man­ itoba Arts Council. And as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we have increased the Manitoba Arts Coun­ cil's grant for the coming year. Last year they provided assistance to the professional groups. The Manitoba Arts Council had about $70,000 that they contributed to this area; and our department had given them some $40,000.00.

With regard to the Art Gallery, the Art Gallery does provide exhibits to schools and communities and art centres throughout the province through their exten­ sion services. They also have a close liaison with the different museums in an educational process in helping them, giving them advice on it. They have their mobile museum and then they have their rolling stock, the train that travels throughout northern Manitoba. We also provide travel assistance to amateur perform­ ing groups, ethnic included, to tour Manitoba. We gave some $25,000 in that direction last year.

And the con­ certs in the north, as you know, are very highly suc­ cessful. Th.ere was some $52,000 spent on that, and there were many groups that visited and performed throughout the north in approximately 30 remote com­ munities, and there were about 10,000 people that en­ joyed this particular grouping of people. With regard to your cousin being in my department, I'm very happy to hear it. If your cousin is as interested in the arts as the Member for Elmwood, I'd say a very welcome addition to our department. MR. DOERN: Cecil, should we tell him? Cousin Cecil? MRS. PRICE: It doesn't matter. Cousin Cecil. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) --the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of other issues that I would like to discuss. It's hard to determine where and maybe some will depend on the preference of the Minister. One question that could be discussed right now, or towards the end, is on her in­ volvement in the church. Is it at St. Pierre? I don't know if the Minister would care to comment on that now. If so, I would like to ask her some questions about her policy there or make some comments. MRS. PRICE: All right. MR.

DOERN: Well, I guess maybe what I would prefer is to ask the Minister to make a statement about why she became involved and when she became involved. Perhaps we could start there. MRS. PRICE: I became involved just a couple of days ago. The reason I became involved is because Histor­ ical Resources comes under my portfolio, inasmuch as we have the final say as to whether a building will be designated or not, and I initiated a meeting with the Archbishop of St. Boniface and we had a very fruitful meeting the other day.

I suggested to him that as long as there's just two dissenting sectors of people in the community that are saying the building should be torn, the building shouldn't be torn down, until there was an expert brought in and determine the condition of the structure of the building, that the problem would never be solved. So I suggested to him, and with his con­ currence, he is going to the Board of Trustees in the community to suggest that I asked him to have a joint study --by joint I mean financially joint --study of the condition of the building. On speaking to him, the last study of the building was in 1964.

There was a study recently by my department but it was more for the aes­ thetic value of it and the history behind it, but not of the actual condition of the church. 2609

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd also ask the Minister if she could inform us --I gather that the building was condemned as being unsafe, structurally, and from what I read in the papers this apparently was a decision of a provincial department, and I wonder if she could tell us whether this is so, that it was in fact deemed to be unsafe by provincial civil servants, and when that was. MRS. PRICE: Yes.

Last October, I believe it was, the Department of Labour inspectors made a study of the church and said it was unsafe for the public to be in that building, and they didn't say it would have to be tomorrow, but they viewed it as unsafe. Then when the Historical Sites Board came up and recommended that the building be designated, that's when my involvement became eminent. MR. DOERN: Is the Minister saying that this isn't something that she read about in the papers like I did, but that it was being examined all along by the Historic Sites Board? And that the recommendation came maybe a number of months ago? MRS.

PRICE: The Board started the study in January, I believe it was, and they came forth with their report a couple of weeks ago. MR. DOERN: And could the Minister indicate what recommendations there are or whether she can give us any idea of what would be involved in restoration. For example, I know something about structural repairs and that can be quite costly and any other form of rennovation. Could she tell us what is being requested or what is required in terms of saving that church? MRS.

PRICE: Well, until there is a study by some structural engineering firm, I think they're just gues­ stimating on both sides, and we won't know whether it is something that should be torn down and a new building built, or whether it should be restored. And in this study that we hope to initiate shortly, we would also find out what it would cost to restore it, which could paly a major role in that. MR. DOERN: Does the Minister envision a cost-shar­ ing? Let us assume that it will cost several hundred thousand dollars to repair the church, maybe a hundred thousand, maybe more.

Let's assume it would be over $1 00,000.00. Is the Minister suggesting or indicating, either to this committee or to the people of the con­ gregation, that this would be at provincial expense? Or does she have some kind of formula in mind whereby it might be on a matching dollar basis with the congregation? MRS. PRICE: Are you asking me about the restora­ tion costs or the study costs? MR. DOERN: Well, I assume the study is a provincial responsibility.

I'm saying, if out of the study it is stated that it will cost $1 00,000 to $200,000 to make the church structurally sound and to, say, make some ren­ ovation costs, meet certain higher standards than exist, and I'm saying if there is a recommendation of X thou­ sands of dollars, does the Minister have a formula in mind by which the province would provide funding? Or is she thinking of providing 100 percent funding, or what does she have in mind? MRS. PRICE: No funding at all, Mr. Chairman.

My in­ volvement in it, my suggestion was that we share the costs of a study and that would be initiated after we did some shopping around for prices; we wouldn't just be taking the first price that came to us. As far as paying any funds towards the restoration, no, the de­ partment would not be entertaining that thought. MR. DOERN: Then I gather that the study will be cost­ shared, and if the study suggests that there has to be money spent on structural repairs or any other reno­ vations, that the provincial government will not share in those costs. MRS. PRICE: That is correct. MR. DOERN: I see.

My own impression then was dif­ ferent, namely that from reading newspapers, my impression was that the Minister was going to step in and throw a bag of money on the table as a contribution to some capital improvements and the Minister is say­ ing that is not the case, that it is not likely that she will make financial contribution. MRS. PRICE: Not towards any restoration, no. MR. DOERN: I have to then ask the Minister what is the value of what she is doing; what is the value? For example, one value might be that you will flush out the costs, which will be of value.

Another value might be that you are going to delay the demolition, which has some merit in itself, but I'm just wondering whether the Minister isn't going to get in a little deeper than she thinks, in that an impression has been created maybe that the province is going to come up with some dollars in restoration costs. And I just asked her of what value there is then, in what she is doing. MRS.

PRICE: I have not made any statement that the department would be contributing to any restoration costs and I do think that a study is of utmost necessity, at this point, to determine once and for all the condition of the building. As I mentioned earlier, the study was done in 19 64 and there hasn't been any improvements done on the church since that time. I feel that the two dissenting groups of people out there are really flogging at something that they're not quite sure about, whether it's in a condition to be restored, or whether the con­ dition is that it should be raised. MR.

DOERN: Again, on this 1964 study, which I am not familiar with, is the Minister indicating that 16 years ago the provincial government, through the Depart­ ment of Cultural Affairs, made a study of that building for possible historical preservation? MRS. PRICE: No. The study was done by Crosier, Greenberg for the church. MR. DOERN: For the church. Would the people of St. Pierre qualify for any federal funding for restoration purposes? MRS. PRICE: I'm afraid I can't answer that question. I don't know; I'm not sure about it. 2610 •

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MR. DOERN: Is the Minister suggesting that the peo­ ple of St. Pierre --there is no provincial program where they could access funding. You see, there's two points here, Mr. Chairman. The Minister may not have offered any money and I don't know whether she should or she shouldn't offer money, but she says she hasn't, but I ask her whether there is any provincial program that the people of St. Pierre might come to her on and say, well, surely because of the historic nature of this build­ ing and because of certain programs or precedents, we would like to apply for a grant.

To the best of her knowledge, is there a program under which moneys could be given to the church? MRS. PRICE: As it stands now, we don't have any provision for grants of that nature; we are going to be looking into our historical resources, as I mentioned in my opening remarks. The only place that there is a possibility at this particular time is in the Federal Works Program and, as I say, we haven't had any dialogue with them or, I don't know whether the people from St. Pierre have either. MR.

DOERN: So the Minister is sort of being cautious here, which I think is a good idea, she's not jumping into the middle of a dispute between a parish and an Archbishop. I must say that, to a certain extent, is the impression, that the Minister maybe was jumping into a very hot situation and might get hurt in the process. I gather that she's telling us that she is really following through on some earlier studies and so on, and that she's not trying to mediate this conflict but trying to provide information which might help in terms of a decision. MRS.

PRICE: Yes, the reason that I suggested to the Archbishop that we have this study is because the His­ torical Sites Board, who are a professional group and this is what they have been elected to the Board for, to determine sites, they have recommended that the building be designated and until we know the true con­ dition of the building we can't make any educated decisions. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to ask one short question here of the Minister on another topic and that is that one of the brighter lights on the cultural scene was Secretary of State, David MacDonald, but unfortunately, the light went out. MacDonald seemed to be a young man bursting with good ideas. He went around the country and generated debate on the arts, which seems to be hard to do and then not only did the Clark administration get defeated but he got de­ feated, which I hope doesn't tell us anything about the fate of people who speak out for the arts.

I don't think it does, but since this man had a lot of good ideas and was one of the few members of parliament who seemed to have a feel for the arts --not the only one but one of a small number --I was just wondering whether the Minister had occasion to meet with him and exchange ideas and whether she had given thought to maybe bringing him to Manitoba in some capacity, either for a specific purpose or on contract, or as a member of the department? MRS. PRICE: I, too, like the Member for Elmwood, share his concern and sorrow that we don't have the former Honourable David MacDonald.

Yes, I did have occasion, two or three times, to have dialogue with him and when I was at the Cultural Affairs Conference in Edmonton a year last February the common concern of all the provinces, the have and the have-not prov­ inces, was that we had no dialogue with the federal government and they would institute federal programs in different little places, such as, little museums and such throughout the province; give them some starting up grants and then, without any warning, pull the rug from under them and they were left in dire straits.

So last September, I went to New Brunswick for the second Cultural Affairs Conference, and David MacDonald was there and we brought the concern forward, and not only did he agree with us that this neglect with the federal government had been ongoing but he promised to do something about. He had made a tour across the provinces talking to us, so I tell the Member for Elm­ wood that I, too, am very sorry to see that he is no longer there because he was definitely an interested man in the arts world. MR. DOERN: I would also ask the Minister if she could comment on Mary Liz Bayer.

Mary Liz was, I guess if there is a Mr. Culture she was Miss Culture in Manitoba for many years, the golden girl of culture. I have no problems with that concept, incidentally, Mr. Chairman. So I wonder, in her case, whether you have had dis­ cussions with her prior to her leaving, or since her de­ parture, in terms of specific assignments that she might undertake. I don't know what she's doing, I don't know whether she's employed, or whether she's going to take a long-deserved rest, whether she's writing a book, whether she's freelancing.

First of all, I wonder if you could indicate what she is doing, and secondly whether you intend to access her abilities on a short term con­ tract basis? MRS. PRICE: Last year I was away with Miss Bayer for a weekend when we went to the Symphony in New York, and at that time she was telling me that her am­ bition in life was to be able to retire earlier and write children's stories, which she has a great flair for, and to be able to freelance.

Before she left, the Deputy and I were speaking to her about her chairing the committee that we're going to have for the Year of the Arts and she agreed that she would like to discuss it with us, so we are going to be instituting some dialogue about May 1st in this regard, so we hope to have her on our team. MR. DOERN: Then I would ask the Minister for a short report on the Year of the Arts.

I would also ask her in that relation, I don't know how the United Nations fully operates; for example, the UN had the Year of the Child and I think the Year of the Women, or Women, whatever they described it as, and I just wondered if the UN has any plans along these lines or whether this is not their type of program. So I'd like to know if she could com­ ment on the United Nations in that regard, and if she could also tell us something about the Year of the Arts, because she made a major address about that some­ where in the past year. MRS.

PRICE: It was myself that initiated the thought a year last February when we were in Edmonton at the first Cultural Affairs Conference and it was met with great enthusiasm by all of the provinces. I think it was in June, the following June, a year coming up now, that we had a planning committee here and had represen- 2611

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 tatives from all the provinces here. Right now they are in the process of sending in their plans for what they are going to advocate for their provinces, and I think it's going to be a wonderful year. We'll have people from coast-to-coast and border-to-border being able to express themselves with their talents that they ha­ ven't had an opportunity to do so, and I think that we can make something big of it for Canada. MR. DOERN: Could the Mini ster give us some prac­ tical examples. This is 1981, I assume we're talking about? 1981? MRS. PRICE: 1984. MR. DOERN: Sorry, 1984.

A bad year for books, Mr. Chairman. I ask, what will I see? In other words, are there going to be days set aside, are there going to be festivals of the arts, can we have a few practical ex­ amples of what this means other than the year as so designated? MRS. PRICE: It will be continuous and ongoing per­ formances by artists throughout the year, there will be exchanges of artists from province to province. As I say, the provinces have all responded with great en­ thusiasm, and they are coming forth next month with their plans for their individual provinces.

The reason 1984 was selected was because that's the year that George Orwell suggested that we were all going to just disintegrate into oblivion. MR. DOERN: I'm not sure whether the Minister is being facetious there, or whether she deliberately took that year to counter this Orwellian prophesy. MRS. PRICE: We took it deliberately. MR. DOERN: Good. The other thing I wanted to ask, and this is related again to the soon-to-be discussed resolution of the Chairman.

Given the birthday cele­ brations of our neighbouring provinces, and given the great, I think, skill exhibited in Manitoba in 1967 and in 1970 for Canadian Centennial celebrations and prov­ incial, I was just wondering out of curiosity whether the province of Saskatchewan or Alberta had any contact with our department in the sense of advice, asked for materials, asked to meet with representatives in the sense of to sort of see what structure we had set up and some of the ideas and some of the innovative pro­ grams that we had, because they certainly could have benefitted from doing that.

The question is, did they do that? MRS. PRICE: Saskatchewan has invited us to partic­ ipate in their program. MR. DOERN: I wasn't thinking about participating. Did they come to you and say, can you advise us of what you did and who did it, and so on and so forth. MRS. PRICE: Yes, they have done that. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I think the other major area I'd like to explore here is the Cultural Policy Review Committee Report, which was released in December, and I wanted to read some of the press comment in regard to that report and to hear from the Minister and to make some remarks as well.

For example, the first headline that I remember came in the Free Press and it was very dramatic, as headlines are, and it said, in effect, Cut Deficit or Fold Arts Report Concludes. And then it went on to say that the government should allow arts organizations suffering from habitual financial problems to fold unless they accept new restrictions. I think some people in the community would probably say, Amen to that, in the sense that they would say yes, there's too much of this crisis management going on.

And it also sounds like the government is taking a very tough line and I don't believe that's the case either. I was just wondering if we could start on that point, and I would like to say as well that I think a lot of people, including strong supporters of the arts, are getting fed up with these chronic deficits and what I think must be considered among other things as chronic misman­ agement of some of these organizations. I think that for too long, for example, we've had boards appointed that have sat around and looked good. They've had their names put up.

Various people in the community, some of considerable prominence, like the look of their name on the annual report or on the pro­ gram that is handed out at concerts or plays, and yet they haven't done anything. I ask the Minister if she could comment on the tone of certain news reports concerning the review which said that the recommen­ dation was tough, namely sink or swim. MRS.

PRICE: I think that the Member for Elmwood will agree that the headline was a misinterpretation and it is only in deficit reductions that this situation should be applied, in a more stricter sense, and to ensure the accountability for the public funds. We have taken a much tougher stand in the past year. I think we can tell you that the boards --we have very capable boards that are made up of sound business people as well as people in the artistic sense that are running their busi­ nesses more like a business and we're finding that the results are great. A case in point is the Royal Winnipeg Ballet.

I think you'll admit that after over a $200,000 deficit to come back and be about that much in the black is certainly worthy of accolades to them for their work and this what we are hoping to do with the sym­ phony too. We find the Manitoba Theatre Centre run­ ning a real good ship and, one by one, we hope that this is how we'll get all the arts people. MR. DOERN: Concerning the boards, there are a number of them, I guess all the major cultural organ­ izations have boards and all of them receive grants.

Can the Minister indicate whether each board has gov­ ernment appointed representatives or whether none of them or whether some combination, some do and some don't? Can she advise us of the policy of the government? MRS. PRICE: None of the performing arts groups have government representations on their boards and I might add at this time that we are just in the process, my department, of setting up guidelines to be given to the board members of the various performing groups. MR. DOERN: Now I'm not exactly sure how you define it. Let's go through them then.

The ballet you say doesn't have government representatives and the sym­ phony doesn't. Does the Museum? 2612

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MRS. PRICE: Yes, the Museum does. The Museum has three I think, half and half. MR. DOERN: And I don't know if I've named the Art Gallery. MRS. PRICE: The Art Gallery doesn't have any, I don't think, no. MR. DOERN: And then there is somebody we left out, the Theatre Centre, no. And the opera? MRS. PRICE: No. MR. DOERN: I'm just wondering again on what basis then do we have appointees on some boards and not on others? MRS.

PRICE: Well the reason that we have it for the Art Gallery, I believe, we give them substantial amounts of moneys and they set up a five year plan whereby they were having to, with a liason committee between government and the board, whereby they had to set up their projected programs for five years and I think --what are they on, their third year now I believe, the first year of the projected, that they have given us their projected budgets and it seems to be working well. MR.

DOERN: I have to say to the Minister that al­ though there must be some reluctance on the part of some organizations, the government is continually bail­ ing out arts organizations and continually providing crisis funding and I'm asking her what check she has on them. Is it the Manitoba Arts Council? Do they have sufficient clout in this regard? Because the symphony, as an example, has been just --there is some bungling going on in regard to the symphony. I don't know what their problem is and I don't know what the solution is.

But I feel that my information is that when it comes to fund raising that some of the boards are not doing any fund raising or anything that really amounts to very much. I guess it was the ballet that had the day at the races and they have some pretty powerful women fund raisers in that organization and they were able to turn that around pretty fast. But some of the other organ­ izations just seem to sort of go along merrily and then throw themselves on the doorstep of the government and the city council and really not do much more than report crises as opposed to raise funds or resolve these crises.

And I am just saying to the Minister, would it be a good policy to have one or two appointees on these boards, some of which are very large, maybe too cumbersome, or does she feel that the Arts Council or her own department have enough strength and enough clout to influence them? Nobody wants to influence or direct any of these organ­ izations that's not the intention. However, if they are going to be chronically bankrupt and chronically in trouble, then some people in the community have a right to say what is being done.

The public grows tired of front page headlines about musicians not receiving their cheques, and that the doors of such-and-such will close very shortly. So I am asking her what she sees as a solution vis-a-vis the involvement of her depart­ ment in relation to these cultural groups? MRS. PRICE: As the Member for Elmwood mentioned earlier, that he was disappointed in some of the city councillors, had they approved the $90,000 grant that was owing to the city, that wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have been in the paper, and they would have been able to meet their payrolls.

Further to that, the board members on the Winnipeg Symphony have re­ alized the dilemma they are in and we have had nu­ merous meetings with them, very fruitful ones, I must say, and they are having a real working group on their boards and they are working hard to get a good fund raising program going and I think they are. I feel quite confident that they are going to come out of it the same way that the ballet did. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I also note that one of the recommendations of the Cultural Policy Review Committee was that there should be greater account­ ability to the Department of Cultural Affairs and that these organizations should submit quarterly reports and annually update three to five year program pro­ jections. It sounds like a good idea, and I want to ask her what the present practice has been in terms of submitting annual reports, quarterly reports, semi-an­ nual reports, one to five year projections, etc. What has been the policy or is the policy? MRS.

PRICE: We have been insisting on audited fi­ nancial reports and also projected programs, etc. ex­ penditures that they are going to be having. We have been doing that prior to the Policy Review Committee's recommendation. And with regard to them having quarterly reports, that would go to the Manitoba Arts Council because they are the ones that have the global amount that they --they are the ones that see how their finances are expended. We give them their global amount and it is up to them how they divide it. MR.

DOERN: One of the recommendations of the re­ port is to make a substantial increase in funding to the arts from about $6 million now, to I guess about another 40 percent or so, and I was just wondering whether the Minister thinks that she has sufficient clout in her Cab­ inet to get additional substantial funding because you have a government that talks a great deal about re­ straint. I have the impression that cultural affairs has not been a priority of the government, and I ask her whether she thinks she can persuade or cajole her col­ leagues into a substantial increase in funding? MRS.

PRICE: I am very happy to tell the Member for Elmwood, that I don't know if it is my clout, . MR. DOERN: Or charm. MRS. PRICE: . . . but I did get the recommended amounts that the Policy Review Committee set. Last year we had a .3626 and this year we have .4095. Work­ ing on a three year projected basis, we'll be up to the point .5 of the total provincial budget. MR. DOERN: Now let's take the report. There were some 44 recommendations. Has that report gone to Cabinet? I am sure the department didn't swallow the whole report. I think some of the recommendations are not very significant.

Others are very significant and I am just wondering what the fate of these 44 recom­ mendations has been. For example has it been studied in the department and gone to Cabinet as a paper, and 2613

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 have you had approval or are you planning to take it to Cabinet, or is it not necessary to take it to Cabinet? MRS. PRICE: When the report was completed in De­ cember, we had a meeting with the full Cabinet and the five members of the Review Committee, and they went over the report with the Premier and all my colleagues and I can tell you that it was very well received from my Leader down to --each and every one of my col­ leages were very impressed with it. My colleague sitting over there in the back table is nodding, yes. I was really happy about it.

With regard to our studying it, I don't like to use the word fate, that sounds very negative, but my Department is studying the recommendations and we are going to be implementing, I would say, the bulk of them in due time. MR. DOERN: I see that back in December that the Canada Council Chairman, Mavor Moore --I assume he is still the Chairman --said there was going to be or talked about the possibility of particular funding for the 15 leading orchestras which are all running sub­ stantial deficits. I don't even know the name of the present federal Minister in charge of Arts and Culture. MRS.

PRICE: It's Francis Fox. MR. DOERN: Francis Fox, right, and I was just won­ dering whether there are any statements made during the election campaign that the Minister recalls by the Liberal Party concerning new directions in cultural funding, or whether since the election of the govern­ ment any new funds or programs have been made available that we can access in Manitoba. MRS. PRICE: I wrote a letter to the Honourable Fran­ cis Fox a couple of weeks ago requesting a meeting with him, and I'm still awaiting a reply from him.

There is a study being done, the Applebaum Study, or has been done, or is in the throes of it, and I haven't heard the outcome of it. MR. DOERN: A couple of other recommendations were made; one was the auditorium in the Archives Building. I assume that's not in a state of readiness at the moment, that there's still a vacant space. MRS. PRICE: It's still a vacant space. We have dis­ cussed it at times. It is not a priority of the government at this time, however. MR.

DOERN: A number of people have argued that there is a need for a facility of that size, and I know that there is a need to invest in chairs, since the seats were thrown out, and I think that was a good thing, because if they had remained you would have had 50-year-old seats there. There are no seats there, and there would have to be money spent on the stage, etc.

I know that I tried, unsuccessfully, to obtain funds to put that au­ ditorium in shape when our government was in power but didn't succeed, and of course there was substantial mom:iys spent on the Archives Building to put it into the condition that it is, which is, I think, very beautiful. So I'm saying, is the Minister saying that she does not intend to obtain moneys to meet that recommendation of the report, and does she also feel that there is no need for a recital auditorium to alleviate what some people say is a shortage of small theatre space? MRS.

PRICE: I'm not saying that there isn't a need for a concert hall of this nature. I would like to tell the honourable member that at this time the Manitoba Arts Council is doing a study of areas in the city to see what there is available to house many of the groups that are in need of larger premises, and they are just in the throes of this study now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the Minister always appreciates when a fel­ low Minister or colleague enters into her debates or into her estimates but I couldn't help but want to com­ ment on the issue that was raised by the Honourable Member for Elmwood with respect to the small audi­ torium space that is vacant in the Archives Building. I have asked the Department of Government Services to undertake an assessment of the facility in terms of, in a very general way, what is possible, so that the Department of Government of Services can indicate to Cultural Affairs what possibly could be available in that facility.

It would then be, of course, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, up to the Department of Cultural Affairs to determine with their contacts, the different organizations, amateur groups, etc., as to the exact possibilities that that facility has. But I find myself in agreement with the Honourable Member for Elm­ wood. I have a lot of very fond memories of that par­ ticular facility. I believe it is a facility that is . MR. DOERN: Did you sing there? MR. ENNS: Well, as a matter of fact, I did, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOERN: German lieder? MR. ENNS: No, the Mikado with the University Glee Club.

But it is a facility, and I have also been ap­ proached, as I am sure other members have been ap­ proached, from time to time, by particularly amateur groups. It is a particular size of a facility that I think has a place for the cultural activities within the city of Win­ nipeg, and Mr. Neil Osler of the Department of Gov­ ernment Services is, at this time, preparing some information that we would have available to the De­ partment of Cultural Affairs. But Mr. Chairman, I would encourage and support the Minister of Cultural Affairs for the development of that facility.

I believe there is room for that facility within the numerous groups that, from to time, could avail them­ selves to that size of facility. If I may be permitted to speak in a more personal way, we have a very active amateur theatre group within the ethnic community that I am involved with, within the Mennonite community, that very often finds itself in difficulty when they are putting on smaller performances that simply don't fit the bill for the larger facilities that we have in the city and were the small auditorium would be ideal.

Madam Minister, I don't wish to create any problems for you, but you can always rely on the support of Gov­ ernment Services to further the development of facili­ ties in the city for the arts and for the amateur theatre groups, and/or for whoever may wish to use that fa­ cility. It is a fine facility. There are certain specific prob­ lems that in today's world, what with considerably more stringent fire code regulations, have to be looked at, 2614

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 and it's that kind of information that I'm asking the department to furnish me with at this time so that even before we raise any levels of expectation, we have some idea of what is within the realm of possibility, is there room for reasonable theatrical stage development, or can it only be used for concerts of a different kind that don't involve the theatrical stage. Mr. Chairman, I would hope that information will be available to Cultural Affairs in the not-too-distant future. MRS.

PRICE: I think my colleague wasn't in the room when I mentioned that the Manitoba Arts Council is doing a study of the available spaces in the city, with that included, and they will look in very closely to needs and priorities, too. I would like to tell the Member for Elmwood that this is a sample of the co-operation that I have told you that I get from my colleagues. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister of Government Services for his support as a man of cul­ ture. But my curiosity gets the better of me here when he tells me that he was in the Mikado.

I wonder if he could tell me whether he played the part of Pooh Bah or Nanki Pooh? MR. ENNS: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, be­ cause this is of great importance, I was, in effect, a mimic to KoKo, the Lord High Executioner, and I car­ ried the big scissors for him, which was, of course, appropriate, being a tailor rather than the normal axe that an executioner used to carry. MRS. PRICE: And he has remained a cut-up. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde (Portage la Prairie): The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, as I was com­ ing into the room the name of the department caught my eye and I went to the library to check to see if there was any difference in the meaning of the words his­ torical and historic. I would suggest to the Minister, perhaps her department should be renamed as the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources, rather than Historical. If my understanding of the Ox­ ford dictionary is correct, historical refers to things and events of the past. Those things are historical, but events or things of the present of some significance, which in time may become historical, are historic.

MRS. PRICE: Or hysteric. MR. HANUSCHAK: I would suggest to the Minister that she refer this matter to her staff and let them check it out. Perhaps it should be renamed as the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources, rather than Historical, to include things and events of the past that the department is concerned with and deals with, things and matters and events which might become of his­ torical significance and importance in the future. MRS.

PRICE: The Member for Burrows is exactly right, and this is what we had put forth for our changes, and it came back Historical, so I would hope that he would bear with me until I use up my stationery and my cards. Then we'll change it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, can you confirm that we're still on 1.(c)? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1.(c), yes. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just had a few questions of the Minister, and both you, Mr.

Chairman, and the Minister have been most accom­ modating to members on this side in enabling us to range rather freely through the department. I missed the Minister's introductory remarks, but I'd like to ask whether she tabled a breakdown of the staff man years for this year as opposed to last year. MRS. PRICE: I have them set up department by de­ partment. If the Member for St. Vital would like to know, I can tell him in a few minutes. The Planning and De­ velopment, it was four last year and it remains four. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, maybe the Minister could provide us with the information on sort of a line­ by-line basis so that we wouldn't have to ask for them at every one. The Minister spoke to us of plans for 1984, which I suppose does come strictly under this department. I can't resist asking the Minister whether it would be her intention to name . . . MRS. PRICE: George Orwell? MR. WALDING: . .. whether it would be the Minis­ ter's intention to name a Golden Big Brother for the year?

Another question I had, could the Minister tell us whether she expects the department to spend the full $8. 105 million dollars for the previous year? MRS. PRICE: Would you please repeat the question? MR. WALDING: Yes. The 1979-80 year that recently came to a close, the committee last year authorized some $8. 1 million for the department. I suppose not all the accounts are in yet, but does the Minister expect to have expended the full $8. 1 million? MRS. PRICE: It will be very close to being spent. MR. WALDING: I would like to ask if there are any special warrants issued under this department in the last year?

MRS. PRICE: Yes, the $500,000 for the libraries. MR. WALDING: Was that the only one? MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. WALDING: And was that fully expended in the last fiscal year? MRS. PRICE: Yes. MR. WALDING: I'd like to refer now to the reconcili­ ation statement on page 29, and ask if the just over $3 million transferred to Economic Development and Tourism was entirely attributable to the Department of Tourism? 2615

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MRS. PRICE: I didn't hear you, to the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: According to the reconciliation state­ ment, Mr. Chairman, there was some $3.3 million that was transferred to the Department of Economic De­ velopment and Tourism. I'd like to ask if that $3.3 mil­ lion was totally attributable to Tourism. MRS. PRICE: Yes, it was. MR. WALDING: One further question on the

section that we're on now, Planning and Development, the Minister has mentioned that there are four SMYs this year as opposed to last year. Can I ask for an account­ ing of why the amount for salaries has gone up by ap­ proximately 33 percent or some $20,000.00? MRS. PRICE: The general salary and merit increases and the allowance for the staff turnover. MR. WALDING: I am not sure what an allowance for staff turnover means, perhaps the Minister would clarify it? MRS. PRICE: The allowance for the staff turnover is the amount of salary costs that need not actually be paid based on turnover in the past years.

It is a very complicated way the Finance Department has of not only expressing it but . . . I think that has been the case. Our department being so small we will have less turnover than the average person and therefore I guess it is more noticeable. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can ask for clarification by asking the Minister how many persons were employed in this department last year and how many persons will be employed in this department this year? MRS. PRICE: There was 101 last year for 1979-80, and there is 118 this year. MR. WALDING: To clarify, Mr.

Chairman, I was re­ ferring to this Section, Planning and Development. MRS. PRICE: Oh, four. There were four last year and four this year. There were 6.39 before the transfer to the Tourism, but there was actually four in the unit and there remains four. MR. WALDING: Does the $66, 100 approved last year apply only to the four persons employed or to the 6.39 that the Minister mentioned? MRS. PRICE: To the four. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister tell us what those four positions were in the department or what they are? MRS. PRICE: The Director, a senior analyst and two support staff. MR.

WALDING: Can the Minister tell us what pro­ portion of the $1 9,000 in the salary increase will be due to general salary increases and how much to the other category that she mentioned? MRS. PRICE: 5.7 is to the general increases and 13.6 due to the decreased number of staff. MR. WALDING: Thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1.( cX1) --pass --the Mem­ ber for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: One brief question.

The Playhouse The­ atre was once going to be generously offered to the province, and I am just wondering what is happening with the Theatre, is it still owned and operated by the city or do we have any involvement, do we contribute any funds, or have we contributed any funds to up­ grading of that really very fine Theatre? MRS. PRICE: It is still owned by the city, they have not approached us for any funds. MR.

DOERN: I would simply say to the Minister, be­ ware of Greeks bearing gifts because we were once going to be given that facility free, and we thought there might be a catch in terms of $200,000 or $300,000 of renovations. The other thing I would like to ask the Minister is this, and this concerns me a great deal, and it is again the short hours of our major cultural facilties in terms of being open to the public.

For example, the Museum of Man and Nature, my information from a couple of months ago was that from Monday to Friday it was open from 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., no evening hours during the week; on Saturday from 10:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.; --as I read this I am beginning to sound like the recorded announcement when you phone these num­ bers --and on Sunday from noon to 6:00 p.m. My point being that during the week there are no evenings in which a citizen who presumably works during the day can go to that facility. The Planetarium is closed on Mondays, open until 8:00 p.m. Tuesday to Friday, so that is not bad.

The Winnipeg Art Gallery, I think, is really a disaster area in terms of availability to the public. All of these facilities cost millions of dollars, they are all beautiful, they all function well, they all can attract the public, they all have interesting exhibitions and future plans. The Winnipeg Art Gallery is closed on Mondays, open Tuesday to Saturday from 11 :00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m., and open Sunday from noon to 5:00 p.m. Now surely this is totally unsatisfactory. A few years ago, I think, the Art Gallery, as an example, was open about three nights a week or so; now it is not open at all.

It is very good if you are retired, it is very good if you are a tourist, it is great if you are a student and your teacher takes you there, but if you are an average citizen and an adult living in Manitoba it means that essentially you can only get to these facilities on the weekend and that if you wanted, either free or inexpensive cultural ex­ periences during the week you really cannot access these facilities. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, I am leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour. I will return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY -- HEAL TH 2616

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I would direct the hon­ ourable members' attention to page 59 of the Main Estimates, Department of Health. Resolution No. 75, Item 1. Executive Function (

a) Ministerial:

(1) Minis­ ter's Compensation. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I take pride in pre­ senting and discussing my department's plans for this fiscal year. I'd like to take this opportunity to make an opening statement in introducing the Department of Health's Estimates for 1980-81. At the outset, Mr. Chairman, I want especially to rec­ ognize the considerable service to Manitoba, and the support to me, that has been given during the past year by my Acting Deputy Minister, Dr.

George Johnson, and by a number of officials in the Department of Health and its related commissions and agencies and their colleagues and subordinates and personnel in my office who have been so supportive, so diligent and so com­ mitted to the service of the people of Manitoba and so loyal in their service to the present Minister.

I want to recognize the expertise and high standards of service provided by the staff of the Department of Health, the Manitoba Health Services Commission and the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba throughout this province and the long hours of hard work accomplished by my personal office staff with good humour and competence. I would, Sir, like to single out some individuals for spe­ cific mention notably, as I've said my Acting Deputy Minister, Dr. George Johnson; my Assistant Deputy M.inister, Dr. Roy Tavener; Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Don Mclean; Mr.

Peter Schmidt, the Executive Direction of the Administrative Services Division of the Community Services Department, who also functions in very close support and liaison to the Department of Health; Mr. Reg Edwards, the Executive Director of the Manitoba Health Services Commission; and the Chair­ man, Mr. Gordon Pollack; Mr. David Cruickshank, the Executive Director of the Alcoholism Foundation and the Chairman, Mr. Gary Miles. And I would be remiss if I did not also acknowledge the support and help of the Deputy Minister of the De­ partment of Community Services and Corrections, Mr. Ron D.

Johnstone, who was my Deputy Minister for the first two years of my privilege as a member of the Ex­ ecutive Council, and who was enormously helpful to me and did not move to his new position in the newly cre­ ated, separate Department of Community Services and Corrections until late in the year 1979. So that a great deal of what has been accomplished and is incorpo­ rated for 1980-81 in the program of the Department of Health, was done while Mr. Johnstone was Deputy Minister of the combined department.

And I want to acknowledge his services along with the services of those to whom I've referred by name and to whom I refer by category and area of service, generally, to the province and to the Minister of Health. I also want to nod a salute in the direction of the per­ sonnel of Community Services and Corrections, with whom it was originally my pleasure and privilege to work, when those two areas of service were combined under the same department title and responsibility, as the Department of Health.

I enjoyed very much my as­ sociation with Community Services and Corrections and their personnel, their distinguished officials and the colleagues and subordinates of those officials in the approximate two years in which I was Minister of Health and Community Services and Corrections.

I leave my direct association with them with regret, with thanks for their instruction, for their counsel, for their support and help in two difficult years of challenge; I look forward to being able to ·continue to work with them in the service of the people in the province of Manitoba in the future, notwithstanding the fact that we will not be as closely aligned in the future as in the past as a result of the change in departmental struc­ ture.

So I thank them for that two years and I wish them well in their new parameters of operation under their new Minister, my colleague the Honourable Minister of Community Services and Corrections, now and in the future. I also want to acknowledge with gratitude and respect, Sir, the contributions of those who serve the health needs of our citizens, in hospitals, nursing homes, health care institutions, community agencies and organizations.

Their conscientiousness, commitment and willingness to work with government to achieve rapport and mutual understanding has assisted us in maintaining and improving Manitoba's tradition of quality health care. In each decade we witness a changing set of challenges and opportunities. In the health care field the emerging challenges of the 1980s are being shaped by a number of influential trends of the past decade, reflecting new and shifting social economic and medical priorities.

Last month, Sir, these challenges were brought into sharp focus during the Winnipeg Hearings of the Nationwide Health Services Review, being conducted under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Emmett Hall. The review was established to examine growing public concern over the financing of health care and the fac­ tors influencing the demand for health services, in­ cluding criticisms of the system's ability to provide adequate accessible health care. I am gratified to see newspaper and news media re­ ports today carrying the comments, unofficial to be sure, of Mr.

Justice Hall, at the conclusion of his eight weeks of hearings into the health care system. Of course, Mr. Justice Hall's report has not been compiled and has not been issued. He doesn't expect to issue it until the end of June, according to a report in today's Globe and Mail.

But, sir, he has commented, appar­ ently, to the media on the basis of the conclusion of his eight weeks of hearings, in an informal and unofficial way, and I think that what he has to say is good news for all Health Ministers in Canada, and good news for all who work in the health care system, and especially good news for Canadian citizens generally --the con­ sumers, all of us, the consumers of health care. Mr. Justice Hall apparently says, he's reported by the Globe and Mail as saying, that he thinks Canadians believe their medicare system and health care system is very good.

I interpret the fact that the public did not come out in crowds to the fact the public as a whole regard health programs as being very good and expect them to continue, Mr. Hall said. In a relaxed interview, after completing two and a half days of hearings in Edmonton and eight weeks of hearings across the country, Mr. Justice Hall said, according to the Globe and Mail, that while there a problems to solve with the system, the public wants to continue with a program that is fully acceptable. 2617

Thursday, 17 April, 1980 The story goes on to say, that his II-city round of hear­ ings apparently showed to him, Mr. Justice Hall, that there was no single, big concern about the system. Rather, there are a number of issues that will all have to be dovetailed into his final recommendations, but that essentially, Canadians believe their health care system and their medicare system is very good and on balance, they have no major complaints with it.

I think that is encouraging to all who have a profes­ sional, political, or consumer interest in the system that we are talking about because all of us, no matter what political perspective we come from, recognize that health care services and needs are and must continue to be a top priority responsibility of governments and taxpayers and that in that category, in that situation, they require, indeed demand, very very substantial amounts of public revenues, taxpayer revenues, in or­ der that they be maintained in place and improved and expanded.

No matter what political perspective we come from, we all recognize that is a major revenue responsibility for taxpayers and for those taxpayers, through their gov­ ernments.

And we can, I think, take heart in the fact that notwithstanding some criticisms, and there will always be some criticisms, that perhaps Canadians do not incessantly and infinitely ask more and more and more, but that they do realize, recognize and appre­ ciate what they've got and what it costs and that they, all of us as Canadians together, are bringing a sense of responsibility to our involvement in, use of and ap­ plication of our health care system. If that's the case, Mr.

Speaker, that represents a positive and healthy attitude that speaks well for our society, our country and our fiscal position in the future. The review by Mr. Justice Emmett Hall was established to examine growing public concern over the financing of health care and the factors influencing the demand for health services, including criticisms of the system's ability to provide adequate accessible health care.

And there are two major factors, sir, identified, certainly to a significant degree during the Hall Commission Hear­ ings and during recent meetings of Health Ministers across this country which I've had the privilege to at­ tend, which continue to hold the public's attention and for which this government, the government of Mani­ toba, is actively pursuing resolution in co-operation with other provincial and federal jurisdictions. First, there is concern with developments in some prov­ inces which enable physicians to extra-bill significant numbers of their patients.

There is considerable con­ cern that this practice may become more widespread and this, in turn, gives rise to the fear that a two-tiered health system will result, a publicly-funded one for the poor and a superior one for the affluent who can afford extra charges for health services. Our government be­ lieves we have a responsibility to acknowledge the le­ gitimate problems physicians have with medicare, namely the bureaucracy it entails, the limitations it places on income-earning opportunities, and a per­ ceived diminution of professional prestige and status, since the establishment of Medicare.

These problems are not exclusive to Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. Discussions with my provincial colleagues have revealed that varying degrees of physician dis­ satisfaction exist right across this country. Our gov­ ernment also believes it has a responsibility to help improve the professional climate for practising physi­ cians to make it worth their while to continue the tra- dition of quality service in this province. We are committed to encouraging the valuable contributions and achievements our doctors have accomplished.

The skills, creativity and dedication of our physicians con­ stitute the foundation of Manitoba's health system. Standards of medical excellence flow logically from a professional sense of achievement and recognition and we want to acknowledge that for and on the record. Since we took office in 1977, our government has at­ tempted to be as fair and equitable with our doctors as possible.

We are grateful; I am personally grateful, to be able to point to a new, two-year agreement re­ cently concluded with the Manitoba Medical Associa­ tion which provides not only an improved fee schedule, but a consultation mechanism, to ensure physician im­ put into discussions on major health issues. The fee

schedule has been improved to provide for special calls after a doctor's normal working hours and for physi­ cians practising north of the 53rd parallel, in recogni­ tion of their additional working costs. We have also set up a standing committee on medical manpower, to advise government on methods to attract physicians to rural areas of the province and physicians practicing in needed specialty fields. Manitoba physicians have indicated a desire, as you know, Mr.

Chairman, for amended legislation to provide for a more flexible billing process, which would allow for additional charges for certain patients, while at the same time maintaining the physician's right to collect approved payments directly from the government.

We have resisted this suggestion, not only because it might undermine the principle of accessibility and cause fi­ nancial hardship in certain situations, but also because there is no evidence to support the argument often raised, that it would act as a deterrent to patients who overutilize the health system, or who allegedly overu­ tilize the health system. Only 6.9 percent of physicians registered with the Man­ itoba Health Services Commission were opted out of the plan as of this past December 31 st and only a por­ tion of that 6.9 percent are, in fact, extra billing their patients.

It should be pointed out I think, Si