Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 39 (26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-39

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legis l ati ve Ass embl y Of Ma ni toba DEB ATES an d PROCEED IN GS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison __ V,:.. o::::l:..:.. _vn!.!!. _N=o:.. • ..:: 39�8 �: :.::·o..:: O..�:P:.:.· .:.: m:..: .'-Th=: ur� s�d:::.avl:.l•� M�a::,r.::. ch� 2�2.._, .=1:::96:.:,:2::.,. '-- __ ...;: 5;.;th::;...:: S::::es::: s-::;:i�- 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans, Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba� Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o' clock, Thursday, March 22nd, 1962. :MR . CHAffiMAN: Item 1. :MR . GRAY: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources in exile -- the Honourable Member from El:helbert Plains -- (Interjection) -- I said in exile -- has made a very constructive and important address.

At the beginning of his speech I was delighted to see, or hear, that the cold war between the Opposition and the government has to a certain extent warmed up, because at the beginning he took a lot of trouble to praise the government on their accomplishments and later he came in with a strong condemnation on the forest fires . I don't blame him about it because the forests which have been given to us by Providence should be protected, not only in the destruction but also we are losing both.

We are losing the forests, we are also losing the benefits that the forests are giving to human beings , and it is a shame that we are losing so much by its destruction, but at the same time I don1t think that anyone can fight nature, and it's impossible, no matter how much police or firemen or guards you have, to protect those who have more conscience than those who do not think about tomorrow in creating these fires, because I do not believe there are too many who are doing it who could be charged with arson -- they could only be charged with neglect.

We have, in the City of Winnipeg, several hundred firemen in a very small area, still they do not -- it seems humanly impossible so!D3 times to protect homes from being destroyed by fire.

So while it is regret table fires happ.en with less government or with any government, and while I am not trying to protect the present administration in anything -- this is not my duty -- but at the same time I don't think it's fair to put the blame , and in a three-quarters of an hour condemnation I think that the honourable member could have accomplished more by giving suggestions, recommen dations with his own experience -- and he lives in a district where there are fires -- instead of blaming the government and not suggesting anything how it is to be protected.

If he would, I would probably accept his condemnation with more grace . I also want to express an opinion that everything possible be done to protect the millions of dollars of loss, and particularly when a tree is burned the lumber neces sary from the tree to make our life more comfortable is, in my opinion, a very great loss.

So my suggestion is for the present Minister, not in exile, to accept all the recommendations and accept all the suggestions that would see the great loss of the forest fires be diminished, because it's a very, · very important thing, and the fires we've had the last year or two are extremely un fortunate, and so this comes up another question. What is the government doing or what is the Minister doing to replant those forests? Even if it takes 50 years to have the same timber or the same trees we must protect it for the future as our fathers have protected the same thing in the past.

S9 this is about the forest fire. Now; the second question is about the fisheries. This is something which perhaps we could have done more. I realize that a fisherman, sometimes it doesn't pay them to put in so much energy in fishery production -- although they have to make a living -- in view of the fact that the consumers are eating less fish on account of the tremendous expense that they have to pay in the stores for home consumption to have fish in their menu or on the table.

The spread for what the fish industry get, I mean those that produce it -- and they don't get enough -- but when it comes to buy the spread is , in my opinion, too wide, and this is a very important mat ter. It is not how much fish you caught; it's not how much fish you get out of the lakes; it is a problem for us to see that more fish is being used.

It's a healthy food, it's a brainy food, and much less than meat, which is also important, but at the same time speaking for my own family, my own home, when we have to pay $1. 50 or $1. 75 for two small portions of fish it becomes too expensive and then we look for other food where they give the very same nourish ment instead of fish, and I don't think the amount that the fisheries get for their food is small, too small, but even then when it comes to the stores the spread is too much and this is some thing not only for today, but it is something to think about it for tomorrow.

I have mentioned this matter every year under the estimates of the Mines and Natural Resources . I am not ciriticizing neither this government nor the former government. They all make mistakes. No one yet has made any investigation as to the wide spread of the important food supply for ' March 22nd, 1962 Page ·987

(Mr. Gray, cont1d.) ..... the table. So I think perhaps instead of criticizing, which was done yesterday, and I am not usually a believer in history -- sometimes history teaches us, but I found out in our own life that history has not taught us anything.

When Mussolini invaded Ethiopia the war was silent, no protest, nothing; and then it developed through the action of Mussolini which you all know, tben Hitler came in, and so on, but if you could have stopped something immediately, if the government or the people of the world could have stopped an evil rule in time it may not spread all the time, and it would save us a lot of time in criticizing every year the same thing that was criticized in my memory for the last 20 years and nothing. of this has been done.

Then the question of mines; we were all very pleased to hear the program of the Minister in connection with mines, in connection with searching for oil and so on, but while you're doing it, it's a very fine thing. We are not doing it for our province , we are doing it for the inves tors. We are doing it for the people who have money, and when we give them the gift of Provi dence to exploit either oil, or mines, who gets the benefit out of it? The companies; those who invest. Naturally everybody who invests money expects a return, but what are we getting for it?

We are giving them something which is not theirs, something that belongs to all the people, and then what do we get after they produce it? Eight percent or seven percent for the people of this province. We actually give them away something which is valuable and something that's not ours; something that belongs to Providence. We allow them to exploit it; we allow them to make big profits, and we get a very, very small portion of the benefits. Arguments could be made that if they don't do it, if they don't charge them a higher royalty, that they may not do it. Let me assure you, Mr.

Minister, that a capitalist world or the money men, that won't stop them from cultivating, exploiting, developing all the naturalresources by increasing the royalty and give us a few dollars to take care of the big amount in the estimates for health, education and other important matters. I think we neglect, I think we give away something that doesn't belong to us to others for their personal benefit and profit. So I think that these two things, reforestation, increasing the royalties, guarding the forests is a very, very important matter.

I have never yet criticized anybody for what they have not done but I take the liberty of suggesting, in my humble opinion, what should be done. I'm not going into details because others who perhaps know more about it ----- it, and perhaps will do it, but I say that while the announceme nt of the Minister was very pleasant to us as to the future, forget what happened yesterday. Don't jump on the Liberal group because they haven't done it.

If they made a mis take this administration should not repeat the same mistake, and let's think of tomorrow, for get about yesterday, because we could prorogue this House much sooner by giving you the ad vice, instructions what should be done rather than make lengthy speeches criticizing each one. I have never yet told anyone, "Whe re were you yesterday?'·' I wanted to know where were you today. Yesterday is gone; tomorrow is not here; we·1re dealing with serious matters today and let's go on words.

Now that's all I have to say, and I hope that you will accept these sug gestions in the same serious way that I am suggesting it to you. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest this afternoon when the Minister criticized the Member for Ethelbert Plains because he hadn't telephoned him about the fires. I wonder if he realizes just how tough it is to get hold of a Cabinet Minister in this government. Last summer when the fiXe was raging in many parts of the province, I received a telephone call about a fire which threatened to ravage several farms .

I asked this gentleman if he had been in touch with the fire ranger, and he said yes, that he had been infor�ed that it was "none of their concern, it wasn't in tlieir fieldn, so I immediately tried to contact the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs and learned that he was away. I tried to.get ahold of his deputy; he was away. I tried to reach the Premier; ·he was away. I tried to get the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce and he was away, so finally -- (Inter jection) -- out politicking -- so then I finally reached, I was told that·the Ac ting Premier after them was the Minister of Education.

He wasn't in his office. I had learned that he was under the weather and I phoned hlm at home. I told him about the seriousness of the fire and where it was, and he instructed me to telephone the man who was in trouble with the fire to call him, which I did immediately. The interesting remarks of the Minister of Education were this, "What's that guy Guttormson talking about, some farm fire?" And. the attitude, the inference from the gentleman who would listen to the words was that the farm was something - some Page 988 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd. ) ... •• scum; you don't talk about these things. Then he said, "What's the idea? Why did you bother calling Guttormson ?" Well, if the Minister of Education though� that he made any marks politicking on the phone when a man's farm was threatened by fire, he's got another think coming. -- (Interjection) -- Don't worry, your turn is coming. MR. McLEAN: I think we'd better just have a point clear here. To whom was I- - is the member saying that I said that to him ? MR. GUTTORMSON: No, to the farmer who called you at your instruction. MR. McLEAN: Oh, that's not true, Mr. Chairman. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Well, then there's two men who are lying because there were two men listening to your phone call. --(Interjection) -- No, I wasn't the other one. There were two farmers whose farms were threatened. So the Minister of Education at that time instructed the man that he could have a bulldozer for one day. This was appreciated by the farm people, and he also advised him that he would send a man out the following day to see what the situation was . The man who came out arrived three days later.

Fortunately for the farmers the man with the bulldozer was kind enough to remain on for three days in view of the serious situation, and fought the fire till it started to get under control, and then when the man the Minister sent out to the area .came out he realized how serious it was and he instructed the man with the bull dozer to remain on for several more days until the situation was cleared up. My criticism is the lack of policy on the part of this government in regard to fires, because· when these farmers went in the first instance when the fire broke out, they contacted the Forest Ranger.

The Forest Ranger instructed them.that he would be there; he would come the next day. A week passed and he never arrived. This is understandable. He was under heavy duress with other fires , so when he came the following week he advised these farmers that he had no jurisdiction; it wasn't their responsibility artd -- anything south of township 23. These people lived in town ship 22. It was at that point that they called me. This situation prevailed in the northern part of my constituency.

Fires broke out, they went to the Forest Ranger and the Forest Ranger told them that their responsibility was in certain areas and they couldn't move out of those areas. A lot of damage was caused, Mr. Chairman, in areas where fires could have been checked had the action been taken immediately. It appears that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that his department looks after fires only in certain areas. In other areas that I'm speaking of it's unorganized. There is no policy at all and nobody knows where to go to seek assistance in cases of fire.

The people up there believe that thousands of dollars worth of valuable timber and hay land coold have been · saved had they been able to go to some authorized person in an area to get help and he could have authorized the proper personnel to go out and fight the fire. In these areas there was no one to go to and there was no ac tion taken to fight these fires.

I would strongly urge the Minis ter to get together with other departments to formulate a policy which would cover all areas in all the province so that some definite policy is known, because at the present time I believe the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is only responsible for certain areas; in other areas there is no policy at all to look after these fires. I know of one area, the farmer lost well over $2,0 00 worth of hay.

The fire struck at a time when he was in no position to get assistance any where else, because with the critical hay shortage all the hay land had been taken up in the whole areas where hay is obtainable. As a result these people had to go and buy hay at exorbitant prices elsewhere. I believe that if these fires had been stopped when they were first noticed, a lot of this valuable timber land and hay land would never have been wiped �ut by the fire. I'll say that there are too many members of this House who are not aware of what a forest fire does to the land.

There are areas in my constituency now that the local people don't even recognize as a result of the fire passing through. Not only did the trees and the grass burn, the soil is burned right down to the clay and huge boulders stand where they were never seen before. This land will take centuries to come back and will never be able to be used again. I can't emp hasize this enough to this Minister to get his government to formulate a policy which will govern the whole province.

And also in speaking on the part of forest fires , I'd like to suggest that some penalty be imposed on people who set fires in areas where forests may be threatened. In one instance north of Gypsumville last year, one of the Ministers -- a member of his department stopped along the highway and found four women along the ditch with a fire going. When he told them of March 22nd, 1962 Page 989

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) ••.. • the serious hazard and that they weren't supposed to even be in the area, the women laughed and said, "We know. We didn't care. " This is not a criticism of the Minister, but I think that the dangers cannot be emphasized strong enough. Here is a case of these women - had this Forest Ranger not come along when he did they could have set off another fire, and the attitude was rather disgusting in view of the situation at the tiine. I don't think enough credit and praise can be heaped upon the Forest Rangers and members of your department.

I think that the Minister will agree with me that some in his department work tirelessly for days on end with literally no sleep. I believe some of the members in his department suffered nervous breakdowns from overwork. And I think these men deserve tre- • mendous credit for the terrific job they did under very trying conditions last summer. I think that in· view of the terrific loss that is suffered by these fires, the department must consider having more men looking after these fires.

I know we had one Forest Ranger in my area cover ing hundreds of square miles and it was just a physical impossibility for him to do all the work that he was expected to do. Admittedly when the fire got at its worst point the department sent up more men to assist him with his work, but in the early stages he had no help and he was just ru.n off his feet. It may be argued that this would mean spending of more money.

We can't count the thousands and thousands of dollars that are lost as a result of these fires which might have been saved had a proper policy been in effect and more men stationed to look after the fires when they broke out. MR .

CHAffiMAN: ....• the comm ittee that, while we are dealing with Administration and that deals with the general topic of the department, that most of the items that are under discussion now, the subjects will come under separate items, and I thought perhaps we might save a little time if we just kept that in mind and in the begin,ning just deal with the general ad ministration and reserve our comments on the others until we come to the other items, if pos sible. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, it doesn't really matter to me whether I speak on Ad ministration or when we get to Forestry Branch.

It'll take just as long in either case. I have no objection to speaking under Forestry. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I've no business taking

part in this debate except to make some comment about what the Honourable the Member for St. George said. . Now I have no objection to being subjected to ordinary criticism but I have strong objections to the way in which the member presents his information, or misinformation, to the House. I'd just like to say to the Committee that on the occasion to which he refers it's quite true he telephoned me at home. He was not entirely clear about the location of the fire in question. I suggested that he have the farmer telephone me, which he did - the farmer did.

I authorized him, that is the farmer, to hire a bulldozer for one day, explaining of course, that I was away out in left field, it wasn't my department. I then telephoned the Honourab�e Member for St. George and told him what I had done, and he thanked me very much for doing so. The following day I was able to reach the Deputy Minister of Mines and Resources and I inform ed him what I had done the day previous and asked him if he would send a special representative up to see the farmer, or farmers who were concerned.

Now I think that, if I might suggest it, that the members of this Com mittee are entitled to some degree of accuracy in what the Honourable Member for St. George relates to this Committee. · MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said I thanked him and that's true. I did appreciate it. It wasn't till the farmers came to me and told me about your com ments about me and your attitude that I complained. It's their remarks, not mine. I wasn't there. They came to me and complained to me about your attitude. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, as the debate is prolonging on the item of adminis tration, I think I should proceed now, unless you wish to rule me out of order. Because I think it's timely at this point for me to say a few words with regard mainly to the manner in which this government undertook its responsibilities regarding the fighting of forest fires this summer.

And what I have to say will not be said in a spirit of anger but rather one of regret, because it is regrettable that there does seem to be a pretty consistent pattern developing on the part of this government with regard to this very important problem, and that pattern seems to be to take this very lightly, to toss it off and to not show very much concern. After all, here we have an industry involved that is one of the major industries in this province, and the Page 990 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Schreyer, cont1d. ) .•••. way in which the administration of this province handled it this summer does leave a good deal to be desired. I wouldn't know if I should go so far as to say unforgivable, or inexcusable, as the Member for Ethelbert Plains did, but cer tainly there was a great deal left to be desired. We look at Hansard; the Minister introduced his estimates. It's true that he was trying to beat the clock but what do we find with regard to a statement re garding the forest fire situation this summer. We find two paragraphs -- short paragraphs.

Of course, he has a very good argument, one very good argument, namely, that nature was against us this summer; precipitation was practically at an all-time low. But how much longer do we have to go before we learn that this will happen f:com time to time and we should be pre pared? I� m not going to quote extensively from this pamphlet which the Member for Ethelbert Plains used, but I simply do want to refer members to the fact that in 1957 , rather 19 58, we had extensive losses of forest land because of fire.

The next two years weren't too bad, but 1958 alone should have taught us a lesson and we should have been prepared in 1961 to a degree much better than we were. We simply can't afford to lose literally millions of acres, whether it be north or south of the 53rd parallel. The fact is this is forest, valuable timber that's going to waste . Personnel; we seem to rely every time forest fires become worse and worse, we rely on people that we manage to pick up. There is no scheme or program of training on an ad hoc basis .

Training people for a specific job, at least acquainting them with the basics of forest fire fighting. Much of this information I got from people who work as field men, out in the fields, the Forestry Branch.

Had the equipment in eastern Manitoba during the dry months this summer, forest fires getting worse and worse, had the equipment unavailable until the thing had got out of hand, and then they brought in a water bomb er, and as I said in the Throne Speech, it was, it was virtually a spit in the ocean because by that time the smoke and haze had reached the point, and the size and scope of the fire had reached the point where water bombing, the pilot conldn't get in; he couldn't get at the actual -- he couldn't pinpoint the dropping of water. Equipment when it did come in was always a little late.

The cutting of fire lines always because of lack of men and experience in that particular kind of work, always effective too late -- in other words, ineffective. rthink the Minister -- after all this is, as I said, an important matter. Is it worth dis cussing in this Chamber? Members will say "yes" . Well, if it's worth discussing, let's dis cuss it properly. Either it's beyond our confidence or it isn't. _ And if it isn't, if we should dis cuss it, let's do it right.

I'd like the Minister to take just a little time to tell us what plans his · department has with regard to where the training of at least a cadre or a corps of personnel to go in there immediately after a fire is spotted. The Member for La Verendrye mentioned earlier today that several concrete tangible suggestions had been made. We haven't heard whether the department is thinking of them seriously, or whether they've struck them off. I remember in 1958 the first session I had the privilege of sitting here. I asked the then-Minister whether any thought had been given to the purchase of a helicopter.

A helicopter isn't a single purpose machine. It can be used for a variety of purposes. Is it a far-fetched idea? I suggest not. Why not the purchase of one or two helicopters? We haven't been told. Sometimes it's the rapidity, the quickness with which supplies and men can be flown into an area that can determine whether or not fire fighting will be as effective as it could be or not. I'd like to hear from the Minister whether they have any plans, any projects under way towards the use of new devices in fire detection and fighting.

For example, I read the other day that the National Research Council had, by experiment and research, come up with two fairly significant devices -- the use of photo-electric cells and infra-red rays in the detection of fires. Anything about that? Well I think it would be of in terest to hear. I wonder whether the Minister is satisfied that the morale in his department is as good as it could be. I'd like to know whether he is availing himself of every opportunity to get advice and to listen to the aqvice of his younger personnel out in the firlds.

Men in the offices - years of experience, of course, but sometimes the advice or ideas of young men who actually have to be out there and deal with problems such as we've had this summer, would be worthy and worthwhile of listening to. And I have been told by someone who is in the employ -- and I won't mention his name; the Minister will simply have to take my word for it; I've no reason March 22nd, 1962 Page 991

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd. ) ...•• to be untruthful -- that there was , in fact, quite a few of the sem i-career personnel in his department in the eastern part of the province who were very dis satisfied with the way in which there always seemed to be a time lag be.tween when they first suggested a certain course of action and when it actually was implemented. Ideas that they had put forward seemed to be. not taken too seriously. Well, this is as serious as the Minister feels it is. I'm sure he's much more aware than I am to what degree this could or could not be true.

But I would like to suggest to him that there is somewhat of a danger of not keeping up with the latest developments and techniques in forest management and fire fighting. Jurisdictions, for example California, Sweden, Soviet Union, they have, it seems to me, techniques of forest fire fighting that much surpass ours. Of course, these are larger jurisdictions with more money at their disposal. But should money be that much of a concern here , Mr. Chairman, because it seems to me when you save forests you're not really making any expenditures be cause it pays off?

And I would like to close by just leaving the matter, the general problem, forest fire fighting, the inadequacy of this administration's policy regarding it, to deal with a rather spe cific matter. It has to do with reciprocal arrangements with municipalities. I'm given to un derstand that if a fire starts in a municipality and spreads over into crown land, the munici pality must pay 50% of the cost of fighting the fire on the crown land because of the fact that it has st arted on municipal territory.

But when the reverse obtains, then once the fire gets into a municipal territory the government does not reciprocate, and if this is true I suggest it's slightly unfair and som ething should be done about it. MR. A. H. CORBETT (Swan River): Mr. Chairman .... .•.. .... cited California's modern methods of controlling fires. How do you account for the tremendous fires that do so much damage in the forestry areas and settled areas around Los Angeles in the summer? MR.

SCHREYER: If you're referring to the fire that took place in Beverley Hills and Sunset Boulevard and those places I'm sure that the terrain there was pretty difficult, and talk about the Minister complaining about the degree of dryness that we had here, in California it's much more worse. It's a Mediterranean type of climate. You have to admit it would be a lot worse -- (Interjection) -- but still that doesn't detract from the fact that their methods and techniques are just a little bit ahead of ours . MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr.

Chairman, I think I should speak on this item because any brief comments that I have are more of a general nature than one of specific natures, and I must say at this time that I rather feel sorry for the Honourable the Minister on two counts. One is that his department this year did not have a very encouraging report on many counts.

I have not checked in detail the annual report that was laid on our desk the other day, but I do happen to have a condensed report that we received on January 5, 1962 from the Department of Industry and Commerce under his edition, and it went forward to all of the news papers in the province as does other publications from this department, and Mr. Chairman, it is not very encouraging. It starts off here by admitting that we had the, and I quote, "The 196 1 fire season was one of the most destruc tive on record with over two million acres burned. The department attacked 670 forest fires during the yea r.

" And they go on to say that timber pro duction for the fiscal year ending March 31 st, 1961 had a 12% drop from the previous year. The next paragraph says that "While the total number of pounds of fish that were caught was up a little, the value of the catch dropped by just about $1 million." The next page says "Duck production was down considerably due to the drought. " The next page says that crude oil pro duction was down, value down by just about a half a million dollars.

Down a little further on the same page it says "Due to the drought the planting of nursery production was cut back to three-quarters of a million." At the bottom of the same page under Fisheries Branch -- I read that one before, I believe -- it states it again, "The value of the fish dropped by nearly a mil lion dollars ," and over on page 5 of the same effort, the value of furs , I quote: "The season's valuation of furs from the 250 fur farms totalled $2,9 71, 000 -odd as compared to $3,7 23 , 000 the year before," so it isn't a very encouraging or forward-looking report, Mr. Chairman.

Now I want to say a few words on the game laws and so on, and I know, Mr. Chairman, that the game laws of this province and any other province, I suppose, are designed to keep nature in balance. That is, it is most desirable to have a limited number of predators . We must have a few of those. It is desirable to have a fairly good supply of game birds and game Page 992 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd. ) .•••. animals not only to satisfy our own provincial residents but sufficient in number to attract tourists to our province. I maintain that it is in this field that the tourists that come into this province find a great deal of pleasure and lures them to our midst. I think if it were possible to analyze the number of tourists and the dollars that they spend you would probably find that they come here by reason of the fact that we have good fish ing, good hunting and so on, and "that is most desirable.

I don't think that all of the credit should go to the department under the estimates that we're discussing at the present time. I think a great deal of the credit for keeping nature in balance certainly should go to the Federa tion of Game and Fish, their head office here, and all of the great number of members and as sociations throughout the province. I think they do a wonderful job in this regard.

Now there is, however, one problem that I would like to repeat again because I have men tioned it on two or three other occa sions in this House, and it always strikes me as being a little unfair that certain farmers in the province should suffer crop losses and crop damage from what we refer to as protected wild life.

Now it is understandable that everybody suffers to a minor degree from predators and that is always so , but I don't see too much justification for a farmer suffering losses to his crops , whatever they may be , from protected wild life, and while the loss in dollars may not be large -- I don't suppose that in dollars they would amount to more than a million dollars or so in the province -- it is a very annoying thing to the farmer to see his crop eaten up with ducks, sandhill cranes and so on. I suggest to you, Mr.

Chairman, that if you or I or anyone here had a herd of cattle and they got out into a neighbour's crop and eat half of it up, we would certainly have to pay the damage s, and I suggest that the government should be no exception in this regard and that some means should be designed where by we can compensate in part at least the farmer for his losses in this regard. I have suggested in the past that perhaps one way of doing it would be to increase the license , the angling license, the hunting licenses, whether it be for wild animals or birds.

They could probably be increased slightly to take care of these losses . I know that the problem of adjusting the loss would not be a big one. My own experience in adjusting crop losses is fairly extensive and I know that that would not be a very big problem. We presently have a number of crop insurance adjusters under the Manitoba Crop Insurance Agency a'l.d I suggest that they might adjust these losses. Now I notice, Mr.

Chairman, in the papers recently, about a month or so ago -- the date is not on this one but it's just recent -- where it is apparent where the federal government are taking a look at this very problem. I have before me -- it's a front page story from the Free Press headed, "A new plan for duck havens will pay farmers who agree not to drain their · sloughs," and it goes on to suggest, and I quote: "A suggestion that prairie farmers be paid to put up with nuisances of wild ducks is going to be tried out by the federal government, Re sources Minister Dinsdale said on Saturday. " The other

article from the Tribune is headed: "F armers to Receive Pothole Pay. " I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the present Minister might give us some more information on this. Surely he has been in touch with the federal Minister and surely they have come to some conclusion in this regard. Now the stories in the paper do not give us too much light on the subject, but to me, unless I know more about it than is re ported here, it seems that we're kind of attacking this problem backwards.

That is, it sug gests in the articles that what they intend to do is pay the farmers to leave a slough on his land to promulgate the ducks, and I suggest that that could increase the problem that we presently have . I think we sho uld attack it at the other end and pay the farmer for the crop losses.

Now last evening, or yesterday afternoon, when the Honourable Minister gave his initial report he said, and I quote: "We made good progress on recreational activities this year and under the Parks Act we sketched out the boundaries for four provincial parks -- two of them new -- 40 recreational areas , and we will be completing 14 roadside parks this year, stretch ing along highways 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 59, 75 and 82. " Now, Mr. Chairman, I was indeed happy to see that Highway #4 was going to come in under this program .

Is it the intention of the Minister to provide us with a sheet showing the location of these roadside parks? If not, then I would like to hear him say that he does intend to put a couple of them in the Gladstone constituency. I for one, Mr. Chairman, believe that these little roadside parks are a wonder ful thing for the travelling public. I believe too that they are used a lot more than the average member believes. It's difficult to prove how much they are used, but about two miles east of Neepawa on #4 Highway there is a private roadside table and little park there. The farmer March 22nd, 1962 Page 993

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd. ) •..•. owns it, and nearly every time you go by there in the summer time you find someone stopped off there in the shade stretched out, sleeping or eating, and this farmer has put a little guest log there, tied it to the table or the tree, and welcomes all those who stop for a brief moment to sign their name , and it certainly is surprising the number of people that visit it. They're an inexpensive type of thing, 1 believe. A lot of them are. They're just composed of a table and chairs and so on, and 1 advocate more of them. Now, Mr.

Chairman, 1 don't think I have anything further to say at this time . MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I believe the matter of information is the concern of the ad ministration. True, as far as information is concerned the Opposition of this House has quite • a difficult time getting information, never mind citizens outside.

But I had occasion last sum mer, some of my constituents required information of some game regulation, big hunting, or whatever it was, I just can't recall it right now, and I wrote the Minister's department per taining to this inform ation but apparently I must have forgotten to sign my name , official title, or whatever it was. I just wrote as an ordinary citizen, and I received no reply. Well, Sir, my point is: information, regulations, bag limits and game limits and that, should be available to all citizens that write his department. But then I wrote back and I signed my letters as MLA for the area.

True I did get a letter, but a long time after the season was over and maybe ... . • . . . my people may use that information next year. But I still believe that inform ation should be available to not only MLA's expediently but to citizens . In my case it wasn't very expedient for myself or my citizens and I hope the Minis ter takes it under advisement. True, he might have an alibi or an excuse because I 11nderstand the department was changing over from one building to another, but nevertheless regardless of any excuse, Mr. Chairman, I think a citizen should get infor.mation as expediently as MLA1s .

In my case I never got it myself. MR. CHAmMAN:

(1) Administration -- passed. Reso lution 52. Forestry Branch, passed? MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, 1 think the Member from Ethelbert Plains raised some points this afternoon that the Minister might clear up. One of them in particular' . the delay between the time that the fires were sighted and the time that fire fighting started; secondly, the reasons why the fire wasn't sighted earlier by departmental staffs. MR. WlTNEY: Mr. Chairman, I have the details now of the Duck Mountain fire -- I got "them over the dinner hour -- which I think will answer most of the questions which came up this afternoon.

I'd just like to announce that first, the fire was detected from the Baldy Tower at 12 :1 5 August 16t h and then it was reported after cross -shot by the Baldy Tower at 12:55 on August 16th. At 2: 00 o'clock 16 men in the original crew left for the fire on August 16th. An actual suppression started at 6:30 in the evening on August ·16th. Now in more detail, the fire was reported by the Baldy Tower and started on LA-8· of Section. 9, Township 31, Range 26, West of the Principal Meridian, on a poplar ridge with grass and high shrub understory.

Ap' proximately 16 men in the original crew started suppression work before 6:30 PM on that day, after clearing a winter Q:'ail of windfalls and detours for six miles from Cockrow1s Mill. Be fore noon the next day ten. bulldozers and close to 50 men were on the fire line. Fire fighting equipment was sent to Charles Lake from all parts of the district on Thursday and extra equip ment was requested from Winnipeg on Friday morning. More men were taken in to the fire from Mafeking, Barrows, Birch River and Ethelbert.

Strong south-west winds and high tem peratures during the night of August 16th, together with extreme drought conditions , made it impossible to slow down this fire. The weather changed rapidly on Thursday morning to cooler and frost was reported Thursday night. However, on Thursday morning the fire was six miles long and one and a half to two miles in width, covering approximately 8, 000 acre s. More men, machines and equipment were dispatched to the area and were able to complete a fireguard by Saturday.

A road was improved into the north-east of the fire from north of the Blue Lake to take diesel fuel and supplies in to the fuel camp, or into the fire camp. Much-needed equip ment was flown into Charles Lake from Lac du Bonnet on Monday and spread out around the fire line. An aircraft was available on Friday, August 18th, for patrol duties on the Duck Mountain and Pelican Lake and returned on Monday with equipment.

Aircraft remained in the district to the end of September and I'd just like to say here that Ws never been felt necessa ry to have aircraft over there because of the tower system which is able to give us adequate Page 994 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Witney, cont1d. ) ••... cross -shots of the whole of the Duck Mountain area. Although the men and machines were on the fire line working 24 hours a day and the fire guards were completed by Saturday, the fire was continually breaking out, particularly on the east and north-east side. Tuesday, August 22nd was a bad day. High temperatures and wes terly winds early Wednesday alerted everyone to the situation. By noon the first reports of' break-outs were reported.

All roads into the Duck Mountain had been under travel permit for a week and these men on the road blocks were immediately inf ormed to stop all traffic into the area. Instructions were passed through Baldy Tower to move equipment out of the danger area. Some trucks, station wagons and cars belonging to the department were in danger. Contact was made. to Hatch Construction via radio-telephone to Camp 37 alerting Mr. H. D. Hatch to the serious situation. Picnickers, campers and cottagers were evacuated from Blue Lake, Charles .and William Lake by mid-af ternoon.

Radio contact was maintained to the fire from Dauphin to Baldy to camps in the fire line that were not lost. The Dauphin radio could monitor all portables during the afternoon until about 7:30 PM. The RCMP were alerted in mid-afte r noon and a staf f-sergeant was assigned to the offic e at Dauphin from 3:30 PM till 5:30 PM and on call throughout the night. A Civil Defence co-ordinator for the region, Mr. Malt, was alerted during the afternoon and was on the fire during the early evening with fir st aid supplies.

Reports of men lost during the late afte rnoon were received from the portable sets and Baldy requested an ambulance for two injured men about 4:15 PM. An ambulance left Dauphin at 5:00 PM via Ethelbert to pick up the injured who were enroute to Dauphin in a half-ton truck. The situation was reported to liead office before 4:00 PM and Mr. Brain, the Chief of Fire Fighting, arrived in Dauphin before midnight. It mentions here the names of Mr. P .......• and the two men that were invotved in the accident. I just mention that to explain the names here.

P ...•.. took his truck and crew into George Lake at 4:1 5 PM and reported some men missing. However, all men were accounted for by noon on Thursday. The injured men, ·em ployees of the Department of Public Works were flown to Winnipeg Wednesday evening. Mr. Prokopchuk died from injuries sustained on September 11th and Mr. Cox at the time that I had this report, is still in serious condition. Reorganizing com menced on Thursday morning from a camp established on the beach at Blue Lake. Approximately 20, 000 acres burned on Wednesday. By Saturday, 34 bulldozers and between 170 and 180 men were on the fi re.

On Monday, August 28th, the fire again took off at the south-east corner east of Blue Lake. Machines and men were transported to this break Monday night and Tuesday. Two lightning strikes were also located in the area on Mon- . day from the air and these were under control within 24 hours. Tuesday the 29th was a bad day. A water bomber was requested. A Canso from Calgary arrived on Wednesday through dense smoke and dropped water north of Singush. This aircraft was damaged on take-off and left for Calgary to return the next evening with additional crews.

They commenced water bomb ing again on Friday morning with departmental personnel in the tail end and apparently effe ctive in holding hot-spots until ground crews and machines were on the scene. In late afte rnoon crown fi res were grounded west of Blue Lake by water picked up at the Blue. A change in the weather on Saturday September 2nd prevented further use of the water bomber and the machines returned to Calgary on Sunday. And then in that area they had a bit of rain. I had some inform ation on the temperatures and wind at that time but I seem to have mis laid them for the moment.

I think it's interesting to note the speed at which this fire was travelling, because from the time that it was fi rst reported by the Bal dy Tower and until time men got into the area, about six hours later, the fire had travelled over a whole section. And the fire continued to crown and to jump the fire lines repeatedly throughout the whole of the operation. Mention was made this afte rnoon and also by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, of some of the figures that were contained in this pamphlet about the fo rest fire situation in Newfoundland , the worst in 30 years.

I'd like to draw your attention to Page 72 of the annual report, and when we give figu res on these fires we give the figure s on all the fires in the Province of Manitoba, including those in the far north country, those that are burning through swamps and non-merchantable timber. Whether or not the other provinces do, I don't know. We do know that some of them do not. Now in 1960 there are 400 ,0 00 acres of crown land burned over; private acres were March 22nd, 1962 Page 995

(�Ir. Witney, cont'd. ) • • . • . 11, 900 and the merchantable acreage that was burned over out of the 400, 000 was 138, 916. With respect to the questions that have been made on policy, and be for e I leave the Duck Mountain fire , I wish to categorically deny that men left the fire tower. The towers were manned all during that period and men were on the scene until the fire was completely out.

Now as for the policy, I think during the past two years that this government-- or the past three years maybe - that this government has built more fire access roads, fire roads, forest access roads and fire guard trails in a short period of time than has been done before . We have also in the south-east corner used every means that we could for fir e protection such , as just diggi ng simple dug-outs to be fil led by run-off, so that pumpers can come up and put a hose in them and then the water can be poured on the fire . We have increased our fire tower network until it is now 104 towers.

It was increased by three towers in 1960, a furthe r three towers in 1961, and I think, if I remember correctly, that there are another three towers planned for 1962. In order to meet this problem of forest fires the committee will remember that when I was in my estimates last year, I advised them that we were going to reorganize the Department of Mines and Natural Resources so that we could make more effic ient use of our field men. And had we not done that this year we would have had a more expensive and worse situation than we faced during this past summer.

We had many unusual diff iculties with the fir es we fought this year, and I mentioned to the committee just before it rose the fact that fir es were springing up in various places in the province and we were dispersing the equipment that we had to an extent that we had never experienced before, but I did n't advise the committee that many of these fires which normally would have been put out in a day or two had gone deeper than had ever been experienced bef ore, and that our men and equipment were on those fire s, not only for days , but some of them are still burning and have to be put out before the spring.

All of our staff are trained in forest fire activities and since we have had the reorganization we have had two schools. The instructor has been the chief fire instructor that we had on the de partment, and our men were given thorough training. The training was stepped up under re organization but it had been continuing during 19 58, 1959 and 19 60, and I must pay a. compli ment to conservation offi cers who normally had been dealing with fish or with game who put their new-found training to exceptionally good use and worked extremely hard during the sum mer in fighting these fi res.

The Honourable Member for Brokenhead ref erred to research and to helicopters . We have right at the present time our Chief Forest Fire Protection Offic er in Kenora in consulta tion with the Ontario people on their fire s, and our fo rest fire staff has been in consultation over these past two years, not only with Ontario, but with Saskatchewan, in the methods of fighting fir es and in having reciprocal agreements with each other in case these fires come across the border.

We have experimented with the Dominion Government in this province during the past year with the detection of fires by infr a-red rays and by the electronic eye. A news release was put out on that matter some time ago. We had our chief forester at the in dustry's fire school in Victoria to study the new methods , and from that in itself and from what we were able to learn from the other provinces , particularly B.

C. and Ontario and New foundland and Nova Scotia, who had severe fire losses in 1960, we applied that experience to the fire s that we fought this year, and some of the most simple things. which we learned at that confe rence were applied this year and worked with a great deal of effe ctiveness. The honour able member mentioned helicopters .

The reason we have not had helicopters on the staff, in the department, are simply because of their expense, simply because of their maintenance and simply because of the fact that you have to have two special pilots, specially trained in heli copter work, and we have felt as we did this year that we would be better off to utilize private industry. We were in Vancouver or Victoria to see what helicopters could do for us in prepara tion for this coming year -- to check on it.

We saw them in action, and when we came back, when our season got bad, we took on helicopters and we were not able only to put out fires with them, spot fi res, but we were also able te do refores tation on the Echo Lake fi re, which was done promptly as soon as we could in order to regenerate that burnt-out area. We, I think, were one of the provinces during this past two years to conduct extensive campaigriing with the Otter Water Bomber, and we had our Otters equipped with dropping tanks and have found them to be one of the most effective units that there are.

Saskatchewan this past year tried them Page 996 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Witney, cont•d. ) ..•.• out and had two, and they too, I understand, have found them satis factory. We have experimented and I have seen the experiments myself with Beavers , with the dropping of water bags on spot fires. Unfortunately during the summer we had one Otter bom ber with the tanks on them; we had another one with tanks on, a mechanism broke and we had to get a new mechanism.

We also found that there was danger to our pilots with the system that we had, and our government air service under its own initiative remedied the situation, and by the end --not the end, but round about the end of August we had water bombers in the form of the Otter aircraft that were doing exceptionally good work.

One of the reasons that we didn't bring the larger water bombers into the province until we were requested to do so by these me!). who were having such a desperate time in the Duck Mountains, was because we felt that our own Otter water bombers for the particular type of terrain, the particular type of country we have in Manitoba, was the best way of utilizing aircraft to help men on the ground fight fires. I think we have a policy and I think, Mr. Chairman, that that policy is a good one.

It in volves training, it involves research; it involves constant forest access road development and fire guard trails, and such simple things as dug-outs. It involves keeping our equipment fully up-to-date, and if any of the honourable members want to go up to the various places such as Rennie or l'llarchand or the north country up at Sherridon or in the Duck Mountains, and see these sites then they are quite welcome to do so.

The tanker which we received from the Civil Defence Unit, it couldn't get off the gravel road that we had put through, but it was invaluable to us and we are in the estimates calling for two more this year. I say, Mr. Chairman, that we do have a policy and I say, Mr. Chairman, that we weren't simply sitting down ani waiting for these fires to suddenly spring up and then take action, and I say, Mr. Chairman, that this province has never experienced a situation such as it experienced this year and we were not the only ones. Saskatchewan, Ontario, Alberta, B. C. and you all remember Newfoundland.

I think we were the first province to take advantage of the army and to send the army into the Echo Lake fire, and the army helped us immensely, and the army were only let go when it was felt that we didn't need them any longer. I have written to the Minister of Forestry and sug gested to him that they could equip the RCAF with forest fighting devices such as the Otter with the tanks for water bombing, because we could do with that type of assistance quite well. While I am on my feet, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to deal with some of the other mat ters that the honourable members have brought up as they have gone along. The Honourable Member for Brokenhead mentioned morale of the department. I think the morale of the depart ment is high. It's never been reported to me that it is not high in my travels around the coun try and I have been around a lot. I have found no reason to state that the morale is low. We went into reorganization.

It caused quite a different approach to the whole problem of renew able resources in this-province and our men, from our directors down to our conservation of ficers to our regional supervisors have worked in with it very well. Some of them may have had reserv ations, but they have forgotten those reservations and co-operated to the fullest ex tent to make reorganization become a fact and to make it work.

And the regional supervisors that we have, and we've had them down here for two meetings now, and at that time we dis cussed forest fires before the forest fire season took place and after the forest fire season took place. Liaison men - some of them quite young men, who have high morale, who have high ideas of what to do, and I think through this system we are able to take the ideas that come from the field men up to the regional supervisors , up to the directors through the various sys tems. Now there may be some ideas that don 1t even get acknowledged, because possibly they're not worth acknowledging.

The Honourable Member for St. George mentioned about the forest fire policy where there was an area where we didn't do forest fire work. Fires in the municipalities have been the res ponsibility of the municipality.

Fires in the wooded areas have been the responsibility of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and we have now extended fires in the local govern ment districts and the unorganized district as the responsibility of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources in co-operation with the local government administrator where local government administrators are involved, and you will be seeing before this House, amendment to The Fire Protection Act to take care of that situation.

In municipalities there have been burning permits required; in the wooded areas there have been burning permits required, but March 22nd, 1962 Page 997

(Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) • • • • • until this Act is amended there have never been burning permits required in local government districts and in unorganized territory, but they will now. With respect to the camper that the honourable members mentioned, we had three fires started at Paint Lake in Thompson which we suspected very much came from campers, but because of inadequacies in the Act we couldn't prosecute, but we are bringing in The Fires Prevention Act this session with some amendments to take care of that situation. . I have dealt mainly with the forest fires because there has been such debate on it, Mr.

Chairman. There are other items here that the members have mentioned and I think possibly ·we can deal with them as we go through the various items in the estimates. MR. W. B. SCARTH, Q. C. (River. Heights): Mr. Chairman, to those who criticized the Honourable the Minister on the forest fighting on the opposite benches, I will mlike one state ment, and I don't think any of them will deny it, that not one of those gentlemen has ever fought a forest fire nor seen a real forest fire. -- (Interjection) -- All right.

Sir, in a dry year a forest fire travels faster than a fast horse will trot and there need be no wind that day at all. When it's so dry that the fire leaps from the top of one tree to the next a great draft originates the speed of that fire. As I say it travels faster than a horse can go, and you can't put it out with 10 or 50 men. I'll give you an example.

Either in late July of 1929 or early August 1929 -- (Interjec tion) -- Just a moment; there's a settlement called Cranberry Portage -- (Inter jection -- Well, you wouldn't know one if you saw one , brother -- (Interjection) -- There was a fire broke out at Cranberry Portage. The settlement was about 700 -- 500 men. Now, Mr.

Speaker , that lonely cut from Lake Athapapuskow to the first Cranberry Lake is only about two miles and it only cut a swath about one and one-half miles wide and yet 500 men couldn't put that fire out, and the honourable gentlemen opposite here arEl talking about "Let's have a bri gade all over the bush in the north that will put out every fire." Well, Sir, there aren't enough people in Manitoba to do it, and I would suggest that they just get a few facts in their head before talking too loudly and too longly. MR .

PAULLEY: Just before we leave this very important and interesting subject of fires that the Honourable Member for River Heights has taken: us back oh, about 30-odd years, I would like to ask the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources one or two questions in con nection with this most important subject. Information has been revealed to me, or relayed to me, that one of the causes of some of the fires, particularly in the Carberry area this year, were the result of lack of co�operation or understanding between the National Department of National Defence and the elements .

I have been informed that in the Carberry area at the height of the drought, or the depths of the drought, whichever way you want to take it, that continuous practising of the firing of weapons was continued in the area with the net result that there were started in this general area a considerable number of fires.

One of the fires, so I am informed, was of such magnitude that it set fire to over halLa dozen hay stacks in the area, which contributed, of course, if my information is correct, to the short�e of feed for live stock in the area, and further to this that after the fires had been started an appeal was made to the military authorities for assistance in fighting the fires which they had started.

I again qualify my remarks that if my information is correct, but after having started these fires, after having been appealed to, to assist in putting out the fires that a considerable period of time lapsed before the normal red taPe was overcome , that the order was issued to the mili tary personnel to go out and assist in the putting out of the fires. This has bothered me in this particular area, Mr. Chairman.

I understand that a considerable amount of damage was done as a result of this, and I would like to hear from the Minister as to whether he is aware of this or whether or not the facts that have been relayed to me are correct. MR . WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of this particular situation. I do know that the army have a firing range there and along that range in the Carberry area they have built fire-guard roads. They were continuing with their normal training program within their firing range and possibly some of their fires did get out, of that I am not aware. I will look into it for you. MR .

PAULLEY: .... •• I just want to say to the Honourable the Minister if I may, Mr. Chairman, that I too am aware of the fact that there are fire-guards .in around the general area, usually of a plowed-up furrow or two around the area, but I have been informed through very reliable sources of the situation that I have drawn to the attention of the Minister. I am also Page 998 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont•d. ) .••... informed, Mr. Chairman, that there is the probability that this also happened in another area. I believe it was in the eastern part of Manitoba -- I am not positive of this.

But I would suggest this to the Minister, that if in this current year, whether the information I have been given is correct or not -- and I believe it to be so because it was from a person who has no axe to grind with any particular individual or indeed no axe-to grind for any political party -- but if this information that has been given to me is correct, and I be lieve it to be so because of the type of the individual that has given it to me, may I suggest to the Honourable Minister that if we are going to be faced this year with a similar situation that the military authorities be contacted in this general area or any other area in which they under take training of the firing of other weapons of whatever nature, that they be requested not to do it, or in the alternative, to be prepared instantly to have complete control and guards over their firing area.

I raise this, Mr. Chairman, for the inform ation of the Minister, if he's not aware of it, sincerely believing it to be true, and as I have indicated, reliable information has been given to me that there were at least six or seven hay stacks that were lost as a result of the firing and the starting of fires in this general area. MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr.

Chairman, I was very much interested in the assertations of the forest fires, and being a city slicker I am not aware of the problems, but I think we on this side of the House cannot but appreciate some of the work that has been done, because one must give credit where credit is due to the resourcefulness and initiative of the Minister of this departm ent. I think he is doing what can be done and more power to him . There are several questions that I wish to ask pertaining to the fact that we heard that there was a loss of life and severe injury of some of the fire fighters.

Is there any compensation given to volunteer workers who are not employed by this government in case of such an acci dent? Because I think this is something that I, as a layman, would like to know, particularly since we do depend a great deal on volunteer assistance. Is there any compensation given by the government regarding anyone that volunteers in an effort of this kind in case of injury or death in the family, of a breadwinner?

Secondly, is it the policy, and this is again -- of some immediate action being taken regarding burnt out areas by the department or is there some method procedure of clearing the land and reforestation taking place? And thirdly, is the government intending to buy a helicopter for future use in case of forest fires ? MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the first question, all of our forest fire fighters are covered by compensation.

Just about two years ago, I think it was , we put all of them, including the part-time workers under compensation. --(Interjection) -- Well, we don't -normally have volunteers to my knowledge. We generally try to take them on part-time staff. MR. HAWRYLUK: What happens in the case of the students for example? In case some body -- they volunteer. Are they immediately hired by the government? MR. WITNEY: It's a question I'll have to clear up for you because to my knowledge we generally just take them right on the payroll, but I can look into it for you.

On the matter of reforestation and taking advantage of the salvage, we have been particu larly concerned about getting the burnt saw timber out of these burnt-out areas because it is attacked by worms and if we don't get it out within a few months the timber is no good as saw · timber and then must become utilized as a pulp operation. Pulp can remain for two or three years , and this past year in these burnt-out areas we ap pealed to the operators to take timber sales in the burnt-out saw timber area, and we reduced the timber dues down to the bottom of the

schedule A rat es. We also ask these operators , if possible, to stay out of green timber and we have had, as we have had in fire fighting in all areas, exceptional co-operation from the timber operators, and referring back again to the Duck Mountain fire, the timber operators were particularly co-ope; ative and ready to acknowledge our instructions and to move with our men and to use their equipment and their own men wherever it was necessa ry to do so. Sir, up in the Echo Lake country and up in the Duck Mountain country and in the Winnipeg osis country we put up timber sales for saw timber in those areas at the bottom of the

Schedule A dues in order to encourage the operators il!_f;o salvage the saw timber before the bugs got at it. Next year -- we are now making our plans as to what to do about the fire-killed timber, because the Honourable Member for Gladstone-Neepawa mentioned about the decrease in the forestry products that we had. It was mainly due to a decrease in the pulp market, and that has been primarily because the Manitoba Pulp and Paper Company now have to produce a higher March 22nd, 1962 Page 999

(Mr. Witney, cont'd.) ..•.. quality product in order to compete with the other mills that are operating in the United States and in other parts of Canada, so they have no longer been taking fire-killed timber, nor have they been taking badly distOrted tin;tber.

I've already been in cor respondence with the Department of Industry and Commerce to see if it would be possible to generate a market in the United States because fire-killed pulpwood, I understand, is about 40% lighter and it may be possible to find a market despite the freight rates involved where this fire-killed pulpwood could be used, but that is in the realm of investigation at the present time. -- (Interjection) -- Sorry -- on the matter of the helicopter we will not be putting a heli copter on the staff but we have already been in contact with the people that we used last year to negotiate for use of their machines this year.

MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I notice in the Order for Return my colleague from Fisher brought that last year we spent $21, 000 oti rental of two helicopters from Spartan Air craft and I would like to know for what length of time this was ? Also $8, 000 for a water bom ber, what length of time? MR. WITNEY: The water bomber was used for, I think it was used for a month or roughly about 10 days. I am not sure about the actual amount of time that we used it. We used the helicopters for a period of three months. We had two. We had one on use for about a month and a half and then we took on another.

I think all in all that they stretched over a period of about three months with one being used for the full time and the other being used about a month and a half. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that he was not aware of the point that I raised in regard to the fires in around the Carberry area. I am wondering, because it's in his constituency whether the Member for Souris-Lans�owne had received any represen tations along the same lines I had. Now it's not my intention, Mr.

Chairman, and I don't de sire to put the Honourable Member for Souris-La nsdowne on the so-c alled proverbial spot, but I noticed this afternoon on listening to the debate between the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains , as to you were on the spot and you weren't on the spot, and I wasn't and I was, or something to that degree I think the debate went on, and I was just wondering whether or not it might have been that the Mem ber for Souris -La nsdowne had the same information relayed to him, or similar inform ation that I have had in this respect.

MR. M. E. MciKELLAR (Souris-Lansdo wne): Mr. Chairman, I would like to inform the Leader of the New Democratic Party that while I do represent the residential

section of Shilo that's as far as I go, and the. Member for Cypress constituency represents the area which you're referring to.

I had the pleasure of attending a dance last year at the end of June just imme diately after the fire was started, and they had been fighting it for about a week or ten days then, but they said, as you mentioned -- were the cause of it -- firing long-range shells and the very dry conditions and hot weather in June, and I guess they weren't familiar with what could happen in those dry sands .east of Shilo in the fores.t reserve, but they had the fire under control -- the few logs and the hay stacks you mentioned, and I think the lesson they learned at that time was something that will be of great benefit in similar years as last year.

But the Member for Cypress represents that area where the fire wa13 .. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I Want to thank the Honourable Member for Souris Lansdowne , as again I say I wasn't attempting to put him on the spot. He has more or less substantiated the inform ation that has been relayed to me in respect particularly of the loss of the hay stacks. Now I don't know whether or not the parties concerned have been reimbursed because of the loss of the hay stacks. I sincerely hope that they have, and as I indicated, Mr.

Chairman, earlier I sincerely trust and hope that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources in the Province of Manitoba, will tell the Department of National Defence in Ottawa , "Hence forth, don't start any of your practices that will be likely to set off such similar fires in the future . Use your common sense and take full cognizance and note of weather conditions pre vailing at the time of your exercises. " MR. McKELLAR: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to say that at that particular time that I was there they mentioned that the Officer-i n-Com mand aa:l other leading officers in Shilo were going out to settle with the particular farmers. Now for curiosity!s sake, I am going to the Bonspiel a week from Saturday and I will find out. Page 1, 000 March 22nd, 1962

MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, following this di scussi on that if the farmers concerned have not received compensation for their loss and this has aggravated, and I am sure the Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne will appreciate how much this has aggravated the feed situation, he being more of a farmer than I, that compensation -- (Interjection) -- well, almost, let's say almost- - that this situation should not re-occur again. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to lmow just why it is that. the FQJ.'e$t:r;y Branch is so rigid in its granting of permits for the cutting of pulpwood, small scale operati.on I am referring to.

I lmow that we live under the rule of law and regulations must be adhered to, but for example, in my area there are some people who, during the off-season months, would like to take advantage of this slack season to get a permit for the cutting of a few cords of pulp just on the rim of the shield there, Milner Ridge and east, and when I say sma ll opera tion I mean about 24-cord, 30- cord, 35, 40-cord permits , and on more than one occasion be cause an individual was just a couple of weeks late in sending in his fee , he had to re-apply and when he did he was told, "Well, it's too late now.

We've cut off the granting of permits in that particular area that you were interested in. " And in one case the man had even, the year pre viously, built himself an access road or bush trail if you want to call it that, and had cut, I be lieve, about 40 cords the previous winter. This winter he tried to get a permit, for 24 cords could have kept him going for about three weeks, and he couldn't get it. Now regulations I would suggest are being enf orced just a little bit too rigidly , and while we must live by law and regulations it seems that common sense should prevail too. MR.

WITNEY: We have to regulate rather severely, Mr. Chairman, because if we are going to operate on a sustained yield management basis and we have gone through some five years of fo rest inventories, we are now establishing throughout the province a detailed fo rest inventory management program and if we are to operate on a sus tained yield basis and to uti lize our forest properly we must have so many sales and only so many timber permits . So the regulations are strict in order to keep the forest there for years to come. MR. CHAIRMAN: . • . . • • . 52 passed. - MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, regarding the death in the Duck Mountain fi re, is com pensation being paid to the family of the person who di ed? MR. WITNEY: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I don't know. MR. MOLGAT: I would appreciate if the Minister would verify this, Mr. Chairman, be cause it is a rather important item. I understand the person involved was not an employee of the Forest Service, but he certainly died while in the area and I think doing some work fo r the · Service. There is also one injured person is there not, who has not yet -- MR. EVANS: I would be very glad to see if I can get some inform ation in this connection.

Subject to correction, I believe that this case is handled under Workmen's Compensation, and that being one of my responsibilities , I'll undertake to try and get the information. MR. MOLGAT: ...•.. in both cases they are being protected. Did I understand the Minis ter correctly to say that from now on local government districts in unorganized territory will definitely come under the Forestry Branch insofar as fore st fire-fighting is concerned? MR. WITNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. . • . • • • • . . Continued on next page March 22nd, 1962 Page 1, 001

MR. CHAIRMAN : Res olution 52 -- passed. Resolution 53, Games Branch. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, on the matter of the Games Branch, I'd just like to say a few words in this regard following on what my colleague the Member for Ethelbert Plains said this afternoon. This is one field where the close association between the people of the Province of Manitoba and the interested sportsmen and the department are absolutely es sential.

My colleague at that time, co mmanded the Minister him self for his close liaison with the sports men's group and commanded the manager of the Federation of Game and Fish for the work which they do. in this regard. I want to heartily endorse his statements . I don't think that the work of this department can ever be fully successful without that close liaison and that close eo-opera ... tion. I can say that it's been my pleasure to be at some of the meetings of the Game and Fish Federation,. I am a member of it myself, and I've seen the Minister there himself.

I know the regard in which he is held by that association and I am sure that this will be of great benefit in this whole field. The laws that we pass in this department and in the Fisheries Branch, in the long run, can only be effective provided that they have fairly unanimous support by the sports men. It is in this field, it seems to me, that the Game and Fish Federation can do a great job of

interpretation in liaison with the public at large and I am happy to see the close co-opera- tion that exists. The Federation as well, having a somewhat different approach to the problems and the questions than that of the department, can frequently bring to the department very use ful suggestions and recommendations. They are in touch with, by and large, the majority of the sportsmen in the province; they are seeing the problem s from a different light; and I think have made some very useful suggestions.

One that they have proposed for some time. and which the Minister instituted last year and on which I would like to have a report at this time, is the questj.on of the party hunting. I realize that it's a controversial matter and he attempted it last year on a certain basis, largely I believe at the request of the Federation, and I think it might be useful at this time if he could give his report on its effectiveness and whether he in tends to continue it next year or not. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, I believe it was Nove�ber 6th, last year, an event oc curred where several hunting parties going out in the pre-dawn hours , the first day of hunting season, came across a situation where temptation and seduction had been put in their path. I refer to the stuffed deer incident. There wasn't just one party, there were several parties that got involved. By the time -- well actually nothing could be done about it. They were taken to the courts and I believe four out of .five, or five out of !3ix of the parties involved, if I have my figures correct, were found guilty.

The law as such had to be upheld, and I can understand that, but here you had a situation where the law had to be upheld because of temptation and se duction. I can think of no better words. If this deliberate act of inducing these people to break the law had not taken place, no law would have been broken. Now without getting into a long drawn-out argument as to legality here, I was very much surpri13ed and disappointed that all charges were not dropped -- all of them .

As I understand, two charges were laid and one was dropped in every case; namely, night-lighting, because they were going out in the pre-dawn hours as I said; but the others; namely the (lis charging of weapons between Saturday dusk and Monday dawn, or some charge such as that, was not dropped and they were convicted and fined. I find it somewhat amusing, but more so I find it regrettable and I wo�ld ask the Minister why all charges were not dropped. Secondly, !would ask him how many stuffed deers he has in the stores in his department. Does he intend to order some more from the local taxidermist? MR.

MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, in view of the observations and in view of the terms my honourable friend suggested, maybe this should be handled by the morality department rather than the Game and Fish. , MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Under the biological investigation, there are three areas where white tail deer I understand -- under this department -- and I'd like to ask the Minister the question, how many deer is his branch shooting in the spring of 1960-61 and 161- '62, and will it continue more than the two years?

We find it's somewhat embarrassing in our part of the country to have people who would be prosecuted driving along the road and see a con servation officer get out of his truck, see a deer, take a shot at it, and throw it in the truck and take it home . But the private individual can't do that. I'm wondering, Sir, if this is going to continue, that it might be advisable to notify the public that your. branch is going to go out and shoot X number of deer. I don't know how many they do in a season. But it has been a Page 1, 002 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr . Dow, cont'd. ) • • • • certain amount of embarrassment , particularly to people that are in public life . They'll come along and want to know why they fine me but the fellow in the uni form, why he can do it. And this is .all out of season. I think it ha ppens iD. the spring of the year . The other thing I would like the Mini ster to mention , and it's been mentioned before but it comes under this department, in our particular area there is definitely a problem with rabid skunks .

When you get them into towns and village s and the Mounted Police have to shoot, send away to be tested and come back as rabid animals -- farmers are shooting them in their own yard and I'm sure that we all would not want to have this get into a point where the human being is being g.rabbed by a skunk as a rabid and be one of the victims of the disease � It has been and tested that cattle have died of rabies which is developing from the skunks in the pasture fields, and it is my firm conviction that something more than we're doing now should take place this coming season,. beca use it certainly is not going to stop on its own mo meJ'!tum.

This has kind of revolved and got bigger over the last several years. If you recall , about six or seven years ago there was an outbreak of rabies with foxes, wolves and skunks in the area around south of Brandon, but it has now spread to a lot ()f the southwest part of the Province of Manitoba. In my opinion, Sir , it is something that this government should take a good look at and come out with a very definite program because it is getting worse .

I saw this myself, that here was a rabid skunk on a street of a well-inhab ited town standing there just waiting for something to bite , anc' I went and got the Mounted Police and he shot the skunk and sent it away and it was a rabid· skunk. Now I'm not afraid of them myself, but I certainly don't want to see my ·grandchildren and little tots out and see a little skunk that they might think is a cat and end up with a bite from a skunk.

I think that the Mini ster, if he hasn't any definite pro gram , I would certainly advise; that he get one immediately and get it known and get something done to protect this type of disease that's going MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairm an, I'd first like to join with the Leader of the Opposi tion in paying tribute to the Manitoba Game and Fish Associa tion . Since I have been a Ministe r I have had good relations with the Association , who represent not only the city sportsmen but repre sent the farmer sportsmen too and represent now the sportsmen up in the north country.

We have a ·very strong one operating in Flin Flon. I have attended their conventions and attended several of their executive meetings and found at all times that , while they are very firm in their convictions and very avid in their desire to maintain wildlife habitats and wildlife in gen eral , that they are also people who will listen to reason and to argument and back up what they · consider to be the correct decisions .

I will always remember the resolution which they passed on this controversy between biologists and the man in the field, where they gave their support to the recommendations that are made by biologists . For men who come from such a varie d group of citizens in the province , I thought the resolution was a very fine one indeed and ade quately , and more than adequately, very pointedly proved that they are conservation-minded in ·every respect. I hope to be at their Game and Fish Convention in Wasagaming this year .

I wish to thank them for the assistance that they have given me during this past year when we were experimenting with colours of uniforms. It was the Game and Fish Associa tion that we went to and the Game and Fish Associa tion gave us that co-operation immediat ely. When the matter of party hunting came up and we finally gave party hunting, it was the Game and Fish Associa tion of Wasag aming who appealed to their members to abide by the rules and regulations that were set down for party hunting in an effort to keep it going. I might say on party hunting itself that the experiment was conducted thi s year .

We will be continuing with party hunting. I think it is a little too early to say just what it will do to our game population, and I think it is a little too early to assess whether or not we should change the type of party hunting regulations that we have at the present time . We do know that there were people who didn't abide by the party hunting regulations and went out and party hunted at any rate , but we also know that there were very many who wanted to give party hunting a fai r trial in this province and went out and abided by the regulations to every extent.

Of course, my particular concern with party hunting is what it will do on our deer populations . To date , at any rate, we haven't any indication that party hunting has been unduly severe upon the hunt ing populations , although as we get back the various reports from the Game and Fish members who send back their reports, and other interested citizens who send them back, we will be able March 22nd, 1962 Page 1, 003

(Mr. Witn ey, con t•d. ) •••• to anal yze the situation more clearly. But party hunting will. continue in the province for deer during this coming year. We don't intend to seduce the hunte rs in Manitoba any furthe r. We will not be putting up any stuffed deer and I think that I made it quite clear at the time that stuff ed deer practices will be discon tinue d in the provinc e. However, the matter was referred to the Attorney-Gene r al's Department and we felt that the stuffed deer was definitely an unf air enticement on the mat ter of nigh t-lighting .

The Attorney-General 's Department felt that we had sufficient charges , irrespective of the stuffe d deer being there , to lay on the other accounts so we did lay them and I believe, if I recall correctly, that prosecutions were obtained. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain mentioned about the shooting of deer by de partment men. We are shooting female deer. We had done it last year; we're doing it this year; and we will continue to do it because from them we are able to learn valuable info rmation as to the reproduction of deer.

The purpose of shooting these deer is to examine the numbe r of fawns that the female deers carry and we have found that they are carrying from two and up to three. We can also determine whether or not the deer are receiving adequate habitat for feed, because if the deer is undernour ished it absorbs the young back into its system. The deer doesn't waste any ener gy. That is the reason -- in order to continue reproductive studies of deer.

This apparen tly, according to the biologist, is one of the most important methods of doing so and we will be doing it for this spring and for springs to come and possibly at all times, because on the basis of the reproduction of deer determined at this point, we can deter mine the health of the deer ; we can determine approximately the crop that we will have ; and in relation to that , we can determine our hun ting seasons and the amount of hunting pressure that can be sustained by the deer.

So while some people may fe e� a little disturbed at the fact that our conservation men are shooting deer out of season, they are doing so at the request and under the guidance of the Chief Biologist of the Game Branch and for that purpose .

On the rabid skunk - the Game Branch are working ·very closely with the federal veterin arians and we are at the present time in the process of producing a pamphlet to distribute with our booklet on nui sance animals which was published last year, to advise people what to do about particularly rabid skunks, and I wish to commend the honourable member for getting the RCMP to shoot the rabid skunk.

It is my unde rstanding that while the skunk is not necessa rily a hibernating animal , he does generally den up in the winte r time and that any rabid skunks that are seen around this period cir any skunk s that are seen around this period, you can have some assurance that they are rabid and the best way to handle them is to shoot them -- not to touch them . There has been some pressure to put on bounties for rabid skun ks , but our fear in doing that is that youngste rs then go hunting for skun ks , do not know a rabid skunk from a non-rabid skunk , and could quite possibly be bitten by them..

The Game Branch is also working very closely with the Department of Agriculture and with the federal yeterinarian people and we are prepared to aid in any inoculation program that they feel is neces sary in dogs in this particular country . The regional supervisors have been asked to pass back info rmation and have been alerted to the situation, and so have the conserva tion offi cers. That is what has been done up to date and we are keeping a progressive check on rabies in skunks and other anima ls. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman , one of the most serious game problems in North America is that of the rapid decline of the duck. This may sound like a strong statement , but uiiless all the governments in North America get together , .it's only a matter of time before the duck will become virtually extin ct. We only have to look at the passenger pigeon which, not too many years ago, num bered in countle ss millions and today there isn't a living bird in North America. I don't think there's a living bird in the world. Every year the numb er of guns in creases.

Its breeding areas are gradually being absorbed by drainage and the re's no doubt that it's just a matter of time before -- the gene rations following will not have an opportunity to hunt the duck. I know that this government cannot do anythi ng about it by itself. This is a problem that must be fought by all the governments in North America.

I know that this govern ment is very inte rested -- the Minister has shown a lot of int erest in this subject, but I would like to urge him to seek greater co-operation from other governments and his men to go to these meetings to try to get other men in this field int erested. I think our worst offen ders are in Mexico . I was talking to a fellow who returned from the Orient not too long ago and , while visiting a store, he found Teal for sale and it was his information that the Teal had been Page 1, 004 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr . Guttormson, cont'd. ) .•.• exported from Mexico. I also believe that the number of ducks allowed in Mexico is much higher than that in Manitoba. These people are taking advan tage of a very serious situation. I am very concerned over it because I know I enjoy hunting ducks very much and I know just how badly the duck population has declined in the few short years that I have hunted.

My father has hunted in the Interlake ever since he was old enough to hold a gun and he tells me the times, and this may sound like an exaggeration, but the ducks came in the flyways so fast that the gun got so hot he could hardly hold it. Today you have a difficult time in most areas to get your limit, even on opening day. --(Interjection)-- May be a poor shot -- but if people who're really interested in this problem have watched it as I have tried to do, they'll realizl;l that this situation isn't to be laughed at.

I think that possibly another step that the government could take is to try to purchase land, swamp lands so the duck can breed more readily. I know that at one time in the Inter lake - I know so well -- on any given day you could go out with a gun and find a slough to shoot. To day it's a very difficult task because most of these sloughs are now drained. I know the farmer wants these sloughs drained for his hay land, but I think we must also look the other way as well and provide means for these ducks to survive.

I think that the government should examine the possibility of creating breeding grounds in areas which are not suitable for farming . As I said before , I am not levelling any criticism at the government on this particular matter tie cause I know it's not something they can do by themselves, but I would certainly urge him and any members of his department to do everything in their power to bring home to those other governments, who are not paying the same att�ntion as this government is to this serious pro blem , to try to do something to. bring back the duck population in North America. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 54 -- pass? MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr . Chairman, before you leave this item, I'd like to make a sug gestion to the Minister to extend the party hunting licences to the trophy moose season. The reason I raise this particular point, Mr . Chairman; is that the trophy season takes place in the remote parts of Manitoba, and the reason for it is that there are larger numbers of moose in those areas than we feel that the areas car, properly support, that is insofar as browse and feed are concerned.

Also, the fact that in order to partake in this hunting-- it's an expensive sport because you have to travel long distances, find proper accommodation and so forth, and in order to facilitate the depletion of the moose to the numbers. that the department feels they should be depleted, I think that the party hunting licence would assist in that respect. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman , I was out of the House for a few brief moments , but I never heard the Honourable Minister give us more details on the federal plan for paying the farmers for -- what did I mention before -- as pot-hole pay.

Now surely this Minister has been in consultation with the federal minister, and I wonder if he could enlighten us on the sub ject. This

article says the Minister did not spell out the details of the program , and I wonder if our Minister could give us more details on this one. MR . WITNEY: Mr . Chairman, in answering first the Honourable Member for St . George , we have just had our chief biologist return from the United States where he was down there this past week at a conference on the status of waterfowL At that conference there were officials from Canada, the United States and from Mexico .

He has attended all of the Federal Provincial Wildlife Conferences that are being held in conjunction with the United States be cause he's well aware that it's an international problem, and our officials will be attending one on April 5th to April 6th in Halifax. There is a possibility that I may be there also, parti cularly if the numbers of ducks are going to be revealed or any matters about hunting seasons. We were credited unofficially with being one of the leads at the last Federal Wildlife Provincial Conference.

The officials in the Game Branch, in recognizing this problem and trying to ad just their seasons to do something about it, and the honourable member will remember that we did adjust our seasons into a later area.

That was agreed to at that time and the agreement, unfortunately, didn't stick in some of the provinces but we held our agreement after consulta tion with United States officials who felt that if Manitoba were to change its seasons at this late date, that they would not be able to maintain their steady pressure in the United States on this problem of over-shooting of the waterfowl after it leaves Canada. So I think in that move alone that we had some significant success along the lines that the honourable member is speaking March 22nd, 1962 Page 1, 005

,·"· ' (Mr. Witney, cont'd. ) •••• of, and I am very interested here to see that Mexico was atten ding this conference which was held in Denver. Of course while these results are far from being fully indicative, they do show that the duck populations are down on the wintering grounds in the various sections of the United States. I thought with the moisture that we have had this year that we will have some of our pot holes refilled with water; some of our sloughs refilled with water; and some of our marshy creeks refilled with water.

I flew with the United States wildlife biologist this summer to see how they count ducks over these pot-holes and it was amazing to see the dryness of the country where the ducks are normally breeding and resting, but with the snow that is up there now, the, situation looks a little more hopeful, and of course as the.surveys are made this spring and this summer they will be made by the United States Wildlife Service in conjunction with our own people who accompany them.

We cannot make any predictions until such time as we have those figures, but I can assure him that we are doing all that we feel we can to impress, not only on our neighbouring provinces , but on the United States people. I don't recall Mexico being at any of the Federal-Provincial Wildlife Conferences that have been held in Canada, that's why I think it significant that they were at this one in Denver, to impress upon them the seriousness of the situation.

Fortunately the United States Wildlife officials realize that Manitoba and Saskatche wan are one of the major breeding grounds and resting grounds for waterfowl, and from them, at any rate, we are obtaining a maximum in co-operation. The Honourable Member for Gladstone-Neepawa mentioned about the pot-hole policy. It is an experimental policy that I have not got full details about, although I have written to the Minister of Natural Resources for Canada and suggested that he experiment in the Minnedosa pot-hole country.

One of the problems is that this is involved in some manner or another with negotiations that are taking place between the United States and Canada on the availability of various funds , and until those negotiations are completed and tied down 1 am not sure myself what this waterfowl or what this pot-hole policy will be •.

It simply means that they wish to pay some form of compensation to the farmer to maintain pot-hole s on his land instead of draining it with these new type of machines that they ha ve , particularly pot-holes that are ve:cy impor tant in a particular region, and to find some m!lanS to compensate him for having the inconven ience of going around them and possibly the ducks flying off and on to the grain fields. With respect to purchase of land, we are endeavouring to purchase as much wildlife habi tat as we possibly can.

We recently were able to receive some municipal land in the White water Lake area and the Order-in-Council was passed about two weeks ago. I think we can safely say we are constantly on the outlook for particular types of land that will be good for up- land game bird or deer or for watefowl. I mi ght mention to him that in one particular

section of the Netley Marsh it took ten years to finally conclude the negotiations on one very vulnerable

section there which is now in the hands of the Crown,· and simil:;uoly in the Delta waterfowl area. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, just one question. i believe during the hunting seasqn the government employs a number of temporary game guardians. Could you tell me how many of these game guardians-were hired last fall -- that is during the duck season? How they're paid, How much they're paid and how they're appointed? MR. WITNEY: No , I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I can't give that answer right now, but I can answer it later on. · MR . HAWRYLUK: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to --(Interj ection)-- no I would like to ask a question about the Game Branch. Could the Minister tell me how.many guns and cars were confiscated from offenders by the game wardens? Secondly, how many fatal accidents .and other serious accidents were brought about during the year 1961 by the hunters in this province? MR . WITNEY: No, again, Mr. Chairman, I haven't the figures of the number of confis cations that were made.

We no longer confiscate on the basis of ordinary game infractions, but we do confiscate on the basis of night-lig hting, and those figures will have to be obtained for him. To my knowledge, and I'm speaking strictly from memory now, I don't believe we had a fatal hunting· fatality last year in this province . MR . HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, regarding the breaking of the laws, these continual offenders, the repeaters, are they given a chance to renew their Hcenses from year to year if· they're found guilty from time to time breaking the law? I'm just wondering regarding that, Page 1, 006 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Hawryluk, cont'd.) ••••• because we do penalize drivers for a period of a year or two years, as the case may be . I just wondered what' s done about hunters and fishermen? MR . WITNEY: During amendments to The Game and Fish Act last year, the Legislature saw fit to put into the regulations suspension of the license for one year following conviction on an offence . MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 53 --- MR . TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I didn't enter the hot debate before and I'm not on my feet to criticize the Minister, because actually I don't think I have too many complaints .

Our relations have been very good and the relations with the personnel very good too. But I had questions. that I asked yesterday that was not answered and I would like to have it answered to day . I enquired about the future policy of the predator control in the Province of Manitoba, where I suggested that the government take over lOO% of the financing. Now to my left I was · accused of advocating more spending. I gave some explanation of that and I do not advocate more spending. I think we could actually cut back. And I come back to the Minister before, I felt sorry for him .

He was being criticized for the policy in his department, but I think the real culprit would be the First Minister because , as we know, the First Minister probably isn't Scotch. We !mow he is Irish because quite often at nights we hear the bagpipes reverberating at night through this building -- and I enjoy it very much. In fact, onenightis tayed up forabout half an hour just to listen. But !think he 's Scotch here, and our Minister !think he has broad shoul ders and he's no tin the habit of, as we say, "buck" -- does not "pass the buck.

" !think in his depart ment he was curtailed by the purse strings and the purse strings we know are kept pretty tight by the Treasurer, who.happens to be the First Minister. Now when I mention this, I think there are ways in which we can save a little money and use it in places where it will b: hng more benefits to the province as a whole, and I would refer to some of the propaganda -- where money's being wasted.

For instance, signs have been re ferred to coming down the 59 -- and I see it every time I go -- and just past Grande Pointe , about a mile and a·h alf past it, I see a great big sign "The future Site of the Greater Winnipeg Floodway . " I don't think it was necessa ry to spend money on that because it doesn't do any · body any good at the present time . When the floodway is there, we'll know it. In fact it doesn't do anybody any good except spending a little bit of the public money which does not bring any results.

Now we can save in another instance, and that was referred to by the Minister of Health, or to the Minister of Health, in the case of the hospital premiums where notices were sent. · Of course, I understand the IBM manufactures those things and to get rid of them so ·naturally the department puts a 5� stamp on them and sends them out into the country. That's the way I understood it.

I didn't want to tangle with the Minister of ?ealth but in fact I have one of these little sheets , or is it called propaganda sheets, which I was going to use on him , but I felt sor ry for him because he's been in this department so long and he's a good friend of mine . But you take this one for instance:11Hospital premiums reduced from $36.0 0 to $24. 00. " MR . WITNEY: ....• is that Department of Mines and Natural Resources ? MR . TANCHAK: No, it is n't, but it's just proving my case that we can save some money and spend it in a better cause . It doesn't say here that you are requested to pay or anything .

It just simply states that it has been reduced. Now this particular one costs about $40 .00� ·H alf a page in the newspaper , and I don't think it was necessa ry because here people of Manit oba weren't asked to pay their fees. It just makes a statement that it has been reduced. I don't think that was necessa ry. Now we can use this money ..... to better advantage in other departments , say even for fire protection, and so on, and then the Minister wouldn't have to defend. Of course, he defended his own department. That's his duty.

But he's not fully re sponsible because the First Minister -- he's responsible for his department, but also the First Minister has the responsibility of all the departments . So I think that my proposition was in order; that it would benefit all concerned; that expenses wouldn't be too high if this predator control was undertaken by the government on lOO% finance basis. I would like an answer to that if you please . What the policy is ? MR . WITNEY: Mr .

Chairman, the policy is to pay bounties on coyotes in the unorganiz ed territories and the Agricultural Department pays bounties on a 50% basis with the munici palities in the municipal areas . But during this past year we hired on our staff a Predator March 22nd, 1962 Page 1, 007

(Mr . Witney, cont•d. ) •••• Control Officer and his purpose is to work with the municipalities in order to have them work closely with the individual so that the individual can control the pre dator on his own fields and within his own jurisdiction at much less cost. He also has the ad vantage of being handy and timely and to move in on the situation before it gets out of control .

We also last year produced this booklet entitled "The Control of Nuisance Animals" with effective but not costly devices that the average person being bothered by predators can use in his own field, or around his own barn, or in his own area. And the Predator Control Officer is prepared to work with a municipality or with groups of individuals in determining the best way to relieve the problem of predators that they have .

And I would recommend to any who have predator control problems, or to municipalities, that they obtain copies of the booklet - it's a very thin booklet -- and it's available at no charge from the Game Branch and they can put some of this work to use . I think in that way the cost that the honourable member is speak ing about could be . cut down considerably by the individual taking care of it himself in his ovn area with the assis tance and advice from the predator people in the Game Branch. MR . TANCHAK: .•..••• , • there'll be no change in the predator control policy .

While I'm on my feet I'd like to thank the Honourable Minister for complying with my request of extending the predator control area in unorganized municipality of • . • . . • . • • and at the same time I would like to remind the Honourable Minister that last year he promised to make a survey on the Rouseau River in regard to a dam that was proposed on that river. Pro bably-the Minister recalls writing that letter to me. I would like the Minister to go ahead with that. It would be a reservoir for water supply and at the same time probably a game preserve , depends what the survey proves.

I would like the Minister to go ahead with that project this year. . MR . CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman, while we're discussing the item of Predator Control and Research which is (

d) of 53 I shall make my brief comments in that regard on this item, although I had intended to take up first the item (c) , but since we've got on to predators I'll reverse the order. Did I understand the Minister correctly to say that the officer that they have taken on is working with municipalities too ? I had thought .that in the organized part of the municipality that the predator control program was under the administration of the Department of Agricul ture. and Gonservation. Has that been changed? MR . WITNEY: The Predator Control Officer, Mr .

Chairman, works not only in the municipalities but in the local government districts and the unorganized territories . If I left the impression that it was municipalities alone, that was wrong. He is there--while he is quite right that Agriculture still works with municipalities, he is there ·as an advisor if they need his assi stance. MR . CAMPBELL: Well then, he's a sort of a specialist in. this type of work and while your department deals mainly with the outlying areas yet because you have such an officer if he's of use to the municipalities, or groups of individuals, his services can be called on.

Is that correct? MR . WITNEY: That is right, Mr. Chairman, At the present time much of his work is being done on the ten eighty program both in the municipalities and the local gove rnment dis tricts and the unorganized areas where we extended the program during this past year . MR . CAMPBELL: But with that exception I take it that the main burden of the predator control in the municipalities still remains with the Department of Agriculture . MR . WITNEY: That is right. MR .

CAMPBELL: I had noticed that in this item of predator control and research that the appropriation is somewhat reduced from a year ago and I presume that the reason for that is the rather favourable report that we have on predatory animals as outlined on Page 107 of the annual report and I notice that it is quite optimistic in that the numbers have dropped con siderably. Would the Minister be able to tell us how the experience has been in this present year that we are just finishing now, as compared with a year ago ?

I gather that the year with which the report deals there's been quite a reduction in predators taken from the year before that. How has it been in the year since that? MR . WITNEY: There has been a continued downward trend in this matter. For instance in the duck depredation control, with the equipment which we were able to purchase and with Page 1, 008 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Witney , cont' d.) ••••• the use of field men and the use of areas we have sown to barley, we have been able to contain ducks into an area very successfully. The same with cranes up in the Big Grass marsh country . We also have been able to obtain the assistance from the federal government considerab ly, particularly with respect to crane s. In the north country the wolf control program is in good shape and I think it has really been just a gradual building up that we have been able, as far as the money is concerned, to gradually kno ck the money down .

That may be poorly explained but I think the honourable member unde rstands what I mean. :MR, CAMPBELL: In this past year the Minist er's impress ion is that there is again a decline so far as the timber wolves are concerned? Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would move on then -- or move back rather to (c) . Has there been a discussion in the committee of the fur and game research and management program, because I no tice that that one is increased as compared with last year ? Now I think I am quite fa miliar with management end of that appro priation. What about the fur and game research?

Is there anything new to report on in that conne ction? :MR. WITNEY: We have taken on during the past year a fur educator whose job is to teach or to educate on how to process fur properly in the southern portion of the province as well. Previously this fur education program was done among the Indian and Metis people north of 53 .

It has now been expanded to the rest of the province and we had successful meetings al ready in the Swan River, Birch River country and also in other areas , so the money is gene r ally for this inqreased program that we have , and also the preparation of a trappers' manua l which is being undertaken at the present time. :MR. CAMPBELL: Quite an inte resting story containe d in the report on Page 110 with re gard to the fur trade, and some history is given there of the price situation. It's mentioned that muskrat pelts are still in poor demand.

Is that still the situation as we go into this spring ratting season? · :MR. WITNEY: That's a question I am sorry I can't answer right at the presen t time .. I do know that as the fur educator program has expande d, that we have been getting some better prices fo r our fur , but just what the demand is at the present time, I'm sorry I don't know , but I can find out. :MR. CAMPBEL L: I would be glad to get the info rmation Mr. Chairman .

You are aware that I don't boast about my constituency as often as many other members of the House do, but it is a fact that at the south end of Lake Manito ba, which is the no rth boundary of Lakeside con- . stituency , that there is a march which for both duck and muskrat is unex celled -- well we don' t need to just limit it to Canada -- it's unexce lled in the world. The ability that that marsh has shown to come back year after year in the production of muskrats , has been quite phenomenal and the famous Tom Lamb of Moose Lake told me one time that he regarded that Delta Marsh, St.

Ambroise Marsh, the marsh at the south end of Lake Manito ba, as being one of the very best muskrat habitats that he had ever .seen anywhe re , and I believe he's quite an authority. I think that the trap line system has been of great value to that particular area. I would appre ciate any facts that the Minister could get about the possible likelihood of a price this year, and is it still the policy of the department to sell the muskrat pelts by auction and are they dis tributed as between the two big local concerns here , and do any others bes ides those two local concerns get a chance to bid?

Specifically, is the Hudson's Bay Company now one of the one s that handle some of the furs or is it two main firms in Manitob a here ? :MR. WITNEY: Furs that were sold from the Summerberry marsh area went to the Dom inion Fur Auction Sales, Soudack Fur Auction , Hudson's Bay Company , R. S. Robinson & Sons, S. I. Robinson & Sons , Manitoba Museum Association , the Western Canada Fur Pool, Mr . Fred Kerr, and we have a slight one for miscellane ous. MR. CAMPBELL: That is from the Summerberry. I suppose the same thing would apply to the one s from the Delta-St. Ambroise marsh as well, would it?

They're also registered trap lin es, I believe, insofar as the selling of the fu rs are concerned. MR, WITNEY: No, I believe Mr. Chairman, that the only place where we actually do the selling of the fu rs is on the Summerberry. We do not do it on the registered trap line s. Those people go through the regular market chann els. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman , one question. On Page 106, table (3) in the report. It March 22nd, 1962 Page 1,0 09

(Mr . Wagner, cont•d. ) •••• says, "timber wolves 537" and then, expenditure of timber wolves hunted at • • • • • • • . $15 , 946 . 73 . In my rough calculation it comes out to $29 . 00 per wolf. And I just wonder if these conservation officers are doing other duties besides hunting wolves and if not, I would suggest that we have a bounty and then we could employ a lot of Reserve people who would go after these timber wolves. - MR . WITNEY: The conservation officers are doing other work there, Mr . Chairman, apart from the control of wolves, and we also have our professional hunter program in opera tion too.

We have--I think there were two operating this year in conjunction with the conser vation officers , but the conservation officers do other work apart from this. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, on that same page, I had paid some attention to it too. I think the expenditure that my honourable friend from Fisher referred to $15 , 946 would be just for the professional hunters , would it not? I think it would be only for the profession al hunters •••• MR . WITNEY: That is right, Mr . Chairman. MR .

CAMPBELL: If my honourable friend wants to exercise his arithmetic a little bit more, then he'll find out that if he confines his figures only to the timber wolves that it runs more like $75. 00 a wolf, but even at that it's probably pretty good value. However, I might point out in defence of the professional wolf himters that in addition to those timber wolves that they caught-- they didn't take the whole 537 . Quite a few of them were taken by conser: vation officers which wouldn't be included in that figure .

In addition to that they took 65 coyotes, seven bears and 98 foxes, so that the over-all amount is cut down a little bit. MR . CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister. mentioned in his comments about the Game and Fish Confederation the co-operation he had in the matter of the clothing colours. Has the government made a decision yet on that subject? MR . WITNEY: No, we have not made a decision on that subject. From the reports that I have received to date, I can't recall them all correctly, but I think that we will have to do some more experimentation before we actually make any change in the regulations up to the present time.

There was -- I think it was called a blaze orange, which appeared to have some value, combined with a hat, but generally speaking the re·sults that we obtained are not conclu sive enough for us yet to make any change in our hunting clothing, but I will intend to carry on the experiments this year. · MR . MOLG AT: Mr . Chairman, the Member for Turtle-Mountain asked the Minister about the deer that were being killed out of season by conservation officers for research. He also asked the Minister how many were killed in each region -- what the take was. Could the Minister answer that question? MR .

WITNEY: No, I replied to the honourable member that I didn't have the exact figures • . MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the matter of night lighting. Last year I suggested to the Minister the use of the air services branch for the control of night hunting. I realize that it's extremely difficult for the conservation officers and for the RCMP, particularly in the more wooded parts of the province, to control night lighting from the ground. It's very diffi cult to follow people and so on. I suggested that the air services branch be used in conjunction with people on the ground. Has anything been done in this regard?

Is the government propos ing to do anything? MR . WITNEY: With respect to night lighting? No, we have not done anything with re spect to the aircraft, because our aircraft are only licensed to fly. between sunrise and sunset, nor have we taken any action on infra-red lights to my knowledge. We would not be able to do it with the aircraft because of our licensing regulations on night lighting, but I have to think this one over about infra-red lights. · MR. CHAIRMAN: 53 passed. 53 , Fisheries Branch. MR .

GUTTO RMSON: The Minister in his opening remarks referred to the fishing indus try and specifically mentioned Lake Manitoba as being poor. I think that he was rather conser vative in his remarks because veteran members in the fishing industry there say it's the worst in memory of man. I don't know what the solution is on the lake, but I don't know of a single fisherman in the whole of Lake Manitoba who made money last year. In fact, the majority of Page 1, 010 March 22nd, 1962

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd,) ••••. all the men on the lake lost money by going out on the lake -- (Interjection)-- That's true, most of the men pulled up their nets shortly after the sea son began because of the bad conditions . I don't know what the answer is to it and I'm sorry; I wish I could offer a solution to the Minister, but there is one phase of the industry which I would like to make an honest suggestion and that is regarding the rough fish.

I recall visiting a fish dealer along the shore of the lake last summer, and beside his fish there was a stack of fish laying just like stove wood , and the tragic part of it is that this fish wh�cll !§ P.�rfectly edi-, ble , as the Minister knows, is not even saleable in many instances at even om; @f:3nt a pound. l know of times when men have gone out on the lake and pulled up as +UUCh as a thousand pounds of fish an!i the to tal return would be $10. 00. It seems to me in these days of welfare and po verty in many areas , it seems a shame that fish

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-39
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 39.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	29f7d4c5288421254bb922902625c20f73d1ec73

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