Manitoba Hansard — 13 May 1976 (Sitting 111, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-111

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 p. m. , Thursday, May 13, 1976 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 3693 MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this evening I would like to draw the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my right here where we have 24 members of the St. Boniface Cub Pack under the direction of Mr. Don Gillies. This Cub Pack is located in the constituency of the Honou rable Member for St. Boniface, the Honourable Minister of Health and Sockal Development. On behalf of all the honourable members I bid you welcome to the Chamber this evening. SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR. CHAIRMAN: When the committee broke off for Private Members' Hour we were on Resolution 31(

a) on Page 14. Resolution 31(a)--pass. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I had some concerns I wanted to express to the Minister, but if in fact he has dealt with them when I wasn't able to be here I'd certainly be prepared to read them in Hansard. But I would like to raise them because I think they have some concerns for me as well as some people who I represent. One question I have in particular, Mr.

Chairman, has to do with the new formula that's been applied to the Student Aid Loan Program, which was announced earlier in the year, where in effect the government indicated in its proposals that it was going to defer the granting of bursaries to a period that would be on completion of graduation in three years hence, and that in effect what the student would now have to do was acquire the full sum through a Student Loan Program and if they completed their studies then the Provincial Government would then apply the bursary after graduation. Let me say to begin with, Mr.

Chairman, that that formula itself smacks a little bit of fiscal dishonesty at times because in a sense you are simply really cooking the books in part to try and show a reduced expenditure that in fact is not a reduced expenditure at all but is simply a deferred payment. I think, Mr.

Chairman, that the lesson should be learned that if there was any one major fiscal upset in North America last year was the bankruptcy that was occasioned in New York City, and the reason it was occasioned was for exactly these kinds of practices, which was a kind of game they got into which is an attempt to always put off payments in the future that they should have been making in their current expenditures. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that this is just bad finances, in fact it comes close to being dishonest finances because you really are not paying your full bill at the full time in which it's being spent, but simply extending your capital operations, and I think that it is not being straightforward to the matter of the ••• this province. But perhaps, Mr. Chairman, more important than that is the effect it would have upon students.

My own sense of it is that it would probably have the effect, from the students I have talked to, of providing a deterrent, particularly to students of limited means in terms of their utilizing financial assistance; that if I had to take out a full loan without a bursary it has in part a psychological effect, or whatever it may be. A MEMBER: Explain that. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, I'm trying to explain it. That's exactly what I'm on my feet to do is that in effect the expression of opinion that I've heard, Mr.

Chairman, speaking to students in the university - where I do spend some time -·is that in effect the present program will act as a deterrent to students utilizing government aid to further their education, particularly incoming students, particularly new students, who will neither fully understand the program or feel that somehow - and certainly there's good cause - that perhaps the government may not live up to its commitments eventually.

That there is always that implied by putting the payment off into the future, by in a sense saying, well, you have to trust in us for the next three years, then in effect it provides a deterrent. Mr. Chairman, I don't think the Minister should be scoffing at this frankly, I

3694 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • • • • think - particularly this Minister who has enough problem with his credibility in the best of circumstances - should recognize this as a major concern about this program, and I think, Mr. Chairman, that it is a bad move on the part of the government. I think that I understand the reasons, that they wanted to demonstrate to the public that they were budget-cutters.

They were going to cut some thing, and the one thing they decided they were going to cut was the operation of current accounts on the Students' Bursary Program, but they're not cutting in effect, they're just deferring it. The amount of money is just going to be deferred for three years,. so they're getting in a sense a three-year vacation and then they have to put the money up anyway. But in a sense, Mr.

Chairman, that is not, I think, proper financial pro- cedures for this province to be following; nor do I think is it providing the sort of in centive that should be offered to students, and in fact will provide a deterrent effect. So that, Mr. Chairman, is one of the concerns, not the only one, but it's one of the concerns that I have and I think, Mr. Chairman, I would then like to hear from the Minister some response to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities.

MR o HANUSCHAK: I've responded to that on two occasions and I really do not feel that I should take up the time of the committee to respond to that question a third time. It's perhaps unfortunate that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge was not in the House when Student Aid Program was explained, but there is no attempt at any dishonesty or any gimmickry or anything of the sort; nor is there any attempt at loading the student with an additional loan burden or anything of the kind.

I explained this in full detail, and I'm well aware, and the committee is well aware that the cash outflow of the province will balance in about five years' time. So we're well aware of that. So the honourable member is not uncovering something new that the committee is unaware of or that we as the government have been unaware of. It's making maximum use of the Student Loan Funds that are provided for under federal legislation, but the effect on the student is no different than under the program as it was operating up until last year.

So I have no intention of going into an explanation of the program for the third time. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can understand the Minister's re luctance to repeat himself, although that's never bothered him in the past, but the points raised in his abbreviated explanation, Mr.

Chairman, I think still in fact support the kind of case I was making, and that is that it is a bad financial procedure, • • • of saying the books will balance in five years hence meaning that five years from now, which by a sheer coincidence happens to be after the next election would be half, will then balance, but it means that they will be paying an extra burden at that time, the taxes will have to be increased inordinately in order to make up what they should be paying for now. That, Mr. Chairman, is simply bad financial practices.

However you cut it or try to explain it or rationalize it or anything else, it is just a bad system to get into. Because if you start doing in this program you start doing it in all other kinds of programs, and you end up, Mr. Chairman, where you're simply beggaring and borrow ing Peter to pay Paul, and always in advance and always in arrears. And Mr.

Chairman, I think that the Minister - well I won't pursue the point because the Minister doesn't want to talk about it, and of course as we discussed this afternoon we have no ability to force the Ministers to divulge or talk about things they don't want to - then I would think, Mr. Chairman, that the issue still is that this is a very bad precedent for this government to be getting into and a very serious one, and I expect at some point they'll have to answer for it. Mr.

Chairman, in terms of the other issues related to universities I think the one that I would also like to raise is to whether the Provincial Government has begun to take any steps to change the formula of financing procedures for universities. There has been a good deal of public discussion about the fact that perhaps too much is going into universities. I personally believe, Mr. Chairman, that the problem is that it may not be the amounts but the way in which it's allocated and the conditions under which money is given.

That the formula of financing is really a way of • • • I think has had a very bad effect upon universities, it has done an awful lot of damaging things to them in terms

May 13, 1976 3695 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR.

AXWORTHY cont'd) • • • • • of securing programs the wrong way, not allowing universities to properly plan for their own programs, nor to have any form of account ability in their own right, that when you're working on an annual budget where funds are assigned according to formula based upon numbers of students in classrooms, the first result that you get is that there is a form of kind of huckstering that tends to go on, and that as a result, the departments of the universities feel compelled to start competing to get more students and graduate students in order to increase their financial rolls to justify more faculty, and all you're simply doing is getting into a circle where one is chasing after one's tail in order to keep your finances up.

I think that that has resulted in, Mr. Chairman, first in the deployment of resources in the university in an unfortu nate way, in a way that, I think, has eroded in part some of the academic quality and independence of the university that has made it so dependent upon the public funds, that in fact the ability of the university to retain its role as an independent critic and source of ideas in the community has been diminished. I think that one of the primary causes, there are many causes, but one of the primary causes is the way in which we go about providing public funds. There was a time, Mr.

Chairman, in this country where higher education was either in whole or in part supported through private donations or private funds. That's no longer possible - I guess that costs have gone up too high - and as a result we've also wanted to expand universities to include far more people, so that the public has stepped in, but I think that the public purse is not being used in a particularly wise way.

I would really like to know whether in fact the government is in any way con sidering the alternative of going into block financing, say, over a three year period, so that there would be a very set amount of money that would be applied to the universities, they would know exactly what their budgets were.

They could then determine and allocate their own priorities, in terms of teaching and research administration; they could change the emphasis rather than having a line by line budgetary approach as they must adhere to, and therefore if they need to raise tuition, if they need to attract private funds, if they need to cut back, then they'd know exactly what they have to do because they've got a certain time formula in which to plan.

But certainly the way in which it's done now, where come Budget time sort of everyone scurries around trying to determine whether they can hike up their classloads, and so one department goes up, and one department goes down, and the whole question of certainty is removed. Really it's very difficult to do any kind of rational planning in a university context, and yet, Mr.

Chairman, these are very large operations, we're not talking about sort of a corner store operation, were talking about budgets in the tens of millions of dollars, and if they can't define them properly then you're going to get the kind of results now which I think are not particularly happy ones in the sense of the form that dependency always provides with it a loss of a sense of feeling of independence and autonomy, which has always been the standard by which universities partly have to be judged by society, the degree to which they are able to retain that sense of being a part to some degree in being able to feel independent of the public purse.

So, Mr. Chairman, I would just simply like to know if the Minister and the Department of Colleges and Universities has examined the feasibility of doing block financing for the universities over a three or five year period, and if they have not only examined that problem but also looked at the way in which the fiscal formulas that are now being applied have a dilatorious effect upon the university in terms of its programs of teaching and its autonomy. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I could answer the honourable member's question in one word.

I believe his question was: ''Is the government co-p.sidering block financing, is the government considering a revision in the formulae for financing univer sities?" The answer to that question is no. Because, as the hono:Irable member should know, that it is not the government that deals with the universities in budgetary matters, but rather it's the Universities Grant Commission. And the Universities Grants Commis sion has certain powers granted to it under the Universities Grants Commissions Act, and at the present time it is not the intention of the government to amend that Act in

3696 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • terms of in any way varying its powers. I would want to assure the honourable member that I'm quite certain that the Universities Grants Commission in its dealings with the universities is cognizant of the university's desire and nee.::l. to plan, and to plan properly and hence no doubt does all within its powers to enable the university to do so.

If we're thinking of planning in terms of multiples of years, which has been used, it's been used in Britain, it's been used in Australia, and when the state of eco nomic affairs is somewhat more stable then no doubt it has merits to it.

But I'm sure that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge will be the first to admit that in a time of instability, and particularly in times of rapid inflationary escalation, then any sort of long-term block financing becomes somewhat impractical , because what one may agree to or what one may decide is a reasonable course of action in terms of monetary allo cation for various programs today, may become completely out of line within a matter of months and certainly a year or two. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the Minister of Colleges and Universities is engaging in a peculiar form of flim flam when he tries to declare that in fact government has nothing to do with the financing of the universities, that it's all the Universities Grants Commission. That is just not so. I think that the allocation of budget amounts is certainly set by the Government of Manitoba, and as a result the Universities Grants Commission transmits that money and negotiates for it, but it's the Government of Manitoba that decides on those budget allocations.

No if, way, or maybe, come on now let's , we're almost among friends, let's be honest with one another. To try and get away with that kind of pristine theory that is always paraded out as a way of somehow demonstrating that there is this fine line that government is simply there stand ing in a totally dispassionate objective way, is just not the way it works anymore. And the Government of Manitoba through its own department and Minister exercises a high degree of financial determination upon the spending of universities, it isn't only of total amount, then the formula comes into effect.

I'm simply saying that that formula is really working to the detriment of the universities. It is not a healthy way of transfer ing public funds into a high education institution. Now, once we can clear away that particular bit of underbrush we can maybe deal, Mr. Chairman, with the issue that is raised by the Minister about whether block financing is a way of providing a longer term financial commitment without having to resort to the student or classroom ratio that the formula now applies, whether in fact that would work in times of economic uncertainty, I think the Minister called it. I would propose, Mr.

Chairman, that in times of instability that in fact it may provide a more stable form of finances because it is not waiting upon the whim and wigger of a govern ment to decide whether the budget's going to be cut back this year and everyone sort of waits in heavy expectation to the decision that comes down around February or March in terms of, will we or will we not accept the proposal that's come through, and so every one is sort of hanging on the thread of anticipation waiting for that final word in a sense.

If there is a foundation of block financing so the universities know exactly what they've got and what they haven't got, then it's up to them to rearrange their own priorities. That's the way the public can hold them accountable. They say, look fellows, that's the money you've got. You've agreed to that formula; it's taken into account any indexing that may be required for growth factors. If you need more money you do it through tuition, you do it through private fund-raising, you cut back programs, you re-allocate your priorities. Maybe you don't put rugs on the floor this year.

If you want to have another Professor of Economics you don't put a rug on the floor, or you cut back, or you turn the lights out, whatever the allocation - that becomes accountable. That's how you start determining responsibility.

But to go through this kind of last minutes , eleventh hour budget financing where in a sense you're putting far more onus on the persuasive negotiating skills of universities in relation to government and less upon their fiscal responsibility in manag ing the university, then I think that that is why we're getting ourselves into problems and that's why we have been in problems in some ••• Not just in this province, Mr.

May 13, 1976 3697 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNI VERSITIES (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• Chairman, right across the country, I think there isn't a university system in Canada that isn't experiencing that same kind of fiscal re versal and now that the bloom is off the universities, where it is no longer the thing to do and public support is waning or whatever the atmosphere may be, I think the pressure is on even more for a different style of management and I am simply saying, let's put some of the onus back on the university to manage more of its own affairs.

But you can't do it as long as the strings are closely tied and being pulled. Mr. Chairman, I can attest to that having seen the kind of budgetary accounting, the line by line approach that must go on. Frankly that does not in any way indicate autonomy to the degree that one has an ability to allocate programs and it leads to the kind of situation of if a university decides it wants to have a certain kind of graduate program, then it must wait upon decisions of Cabinet and everything else to whether it should be going ahead on these kinds of things, in terms of approvals.

Now I think if universities want to have graduate programs then they have to decide themselves whether it's in their interest and they can make them go :::>r not. That I think is the kind of thing that block financing takes and they have ability to switch funds from one to the other which they won't have any more. They can no longer have budget transfers. If you're going to spend money on heating, you'll spend it on heating; you don't turn it over and buy some more books for the library with it.

That is the kind of difficulty that we're getting into an:l we're almost making universities appendages like another govement department. Mr. Chairman, govement departments have never been known for their freedom of thought or action and I would be very sorry to see that kind of result or consequence occur because of the way we finance things now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I would want the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge to know that this year I'm advised by the Grants Commission that in deter mining the level of support that is to be offered to the universities out of the public purse, it was on the basis of categorical grants using last year's expenditures as a base plus a cost increase, So to that extent, Mr.

Chairman, I'm satisfied that the Universities Grants Commission - and again I want to assure yo'.l that it's not my intention to in any way encroach upon the authority which by legislation has been granted to the Grants Commission - but I would want to assure you that the Grants Commission has been mind ful of accountability of universities to the community and to the public upon whom it relies for it's supp.::Jrt and in the manners I've outlined had proceeded in order to do that, MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I'm s.::Jrry I don't know what the Minister said.

It was a grouping of words that didn't have any coherence to them. --(Interjec tion)-- Mr. Chairman, does the Minister want to make another speech or is he finished? --(Interjection)-- Well if the Minister is now finished I'll be prepared to continue, Mr. Chairman. The fact of the matter is I still don't think that he has answered the basic question about the need to change the financial formulas. Obviously he's not prepared to, so let's pass on to another topic.

Perhaps the Minister could tell me at this stage what the position is relative to the development of the adult education on the university higher education level, if there is any major initiatives being planned or support being provided, keeping in mind that the separation of authorities that we're talking about, to move into programs say similar to the Adult Education Associations in Great Britain, or the open university system where in fact the availability of higher education would be stretched out to a much wider group of people throughout the province.

I'm aware of the Uni versity's North Program which I think is a useful one and some of the extension programs run by the universities. But they represent, Mr. Chairman, a very small percentage of the total allocation of funds for universities and also reach a relatively limited group of people. I was wondering if the government has been examining again the opportunity to develop a thing like University of the Air, or Open University which is becoming a fairly prominent part of the higher educational system in other countries, to see if we're find ing anything similar in this province, MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I do not know whether the honourable

3698 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • member was in the House when we were discussing special projects where much of what the honourable member is asking about now was de bated then, in fact practically all. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 31(a) - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to raise with the Minister the question that was brought forward by the Canadian Association of Universities and Colleges in its recent briefs, positions related to the availability of research funds particularly in the scientific field, their claim that they're making. It's very much a claim made against the Federal Government which I think is a very important source of it, where in fact the ability of universities to undertake the variety of independent research items on a basis of their choosing, not directive research from government.

I was wondering, could the Minister indicate to us some ball park figure as to the funds that the Provincial Govern ment now allocates for various forms of university research and whether the figure is guing up or going down or staying static; whether in fact it is directed research or whether it's responsive research and if the government has any plans of rationalizing its research program or any ability to fairly clearly state what its research program is re lated to support of university research. MR. HANUSCHAK: Research funds are remaining at about the same level.

One source of research funds of course is from the Federal Government, some from our government. The Department of Agriculture provides some funds for research activity in areas related to agriculture. I regret that I do not have an approximate figure but I do lmow that the level is approximately the same. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I'm wondering if the Minister would answer the second part of the question indicating if the government is undertaking any review of its research programs related to higher education in terms of the issue that has been raised by this Association of Colleges and Universities in terms of the severe cutbacks that are occurring in the field and the degree to which research becomes a component of the community in terms of stimulating a variety of benefits. Do we have a research philosophy or research program that is well articulated and is it matched by funding and could the Minister explain what it is ?

MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The guvernment does have a com mittee which is responsible for articulating in co-operation with the universities the mon eys made available through guvernment sources. This is a committee of the Planning Secretariat of Cabinet that's responsible for this. In addition to that the matter of re search to the extent of federal involvement in it is a matter of concern to the Council of Ministers of Education which is a matter which presEmtly is under discussion with the Federal Government. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 31(a)--pass; Resolution 31: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $469,600 for Colleges and Universities Affairs--pass. That completes the Department of Colleges and Universities. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY DEPARTMENT OF TOURISM RECREATION AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: I would now refer honourable members to Page 55. Reso lution 109 - General Administration Division (

a) Minister's Compensation, Salary and Representation Allowance. The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, before making reference to my notes here I would like to express gratitude to different groups, starting with my own colleagues in Cabinet for the assistance given to me in the last fiscal year in the responsibilities that I have detained for Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs; equally to my colleagues in caucus and more particularly my legislative assistant, Mr. Tom Barrow, the MLA for Flin Flon. I would like equally, Mr.

Chairman, to show gratitude to members opposite who have been able to discuss programs related to Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs and helped me form certain policies that I believe are indicated to be satisfactory to the people that we jointly serve.

May 13, 1976 3699 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cant'

d) Over the last decade, Mr. Chairman, the late 1960s and the early 1970s, we have experienced a perio::l in which increased attention has been focused upon those characteristics of society and of in::lividuals which contribute to our quality of life. We have seen new interests and activities developed by people and organizations which have clearly indicated that a set of new qualitative values have become established in O'.lr society.

Personal fitness, social interaction and involvement, personal creative expres sion through arts, interest in cultural activities, concern for the preservation of the natural environment and many other activities which have grown rapidly during the past ten years reflect this new awareness of society. The changes represent additional priorities that society has developed, priorities that were made possible by a highly productive, efficient and wealthy economy.

Larger numbers of people than ever before had the education to develop these new concerns, the discretionary time to engage in activities, the income and the technology that open up new opportunities in our province. Governments at all levels have felt the impact of these changes and have re sponded through larger commitment of funds for recreational and cultural programming made necessary by the increased numbers of people requiring the services and the new kinds of services needed.

The Budget of the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs for example has increased from $7 million in 1970-71 to $21.6 million during the past fiscal year. We are in a period, beginning the second half of this decade, when economic problems which were felt for the past two or three years in most western countries have heen affecting us here in this province, a period which calls for restraint on the part of institutions and people in order to ensure that our economic base remains strong and secure.

The new awareness and concern for the quality of life which Manitobans have will not vanish because we have entered a period of economic restraint. Discretionary time which people presently have is not subject to erosion by inflation, nor are their expectations so diminished. The challenges that the current situation poses to my department are clear.

We must continue to provide the quantity and standards of service which Manitobans have come to expect and to provide them to an increased number of people during the next fiscal year and we must do this with less of an increase in funds than has been the case over the past few years.

The Department is committed to finding new and more efficient ways of deliver ing Provincial Park Services, to strengthening only the most pro:iuctive and effective cultural and recreational programs, to maintaining an equitable distribution of services on the basis of need and to ensuring that our expenditures on the to:J.rism industry in crease relative to productivity. To a Department for which these have always been standard goals, the challenge is that much greater for the fiscal year 1976-77.

Actions have been taken during the current fiscal year in this regard and their success has al ready been noticed in the fiscal year before us. In order to further develop Manitoba's position as a tourism destination, to capture a larger share of the travel market and create a more positive response to the changing demands, a reorganization of the Department's Tourist Branch was initiated in September, 1975.

With no increase in staff man years or funds, separate branches were created to deal with Tourism Marketing and Promotion, the consumer side of the travel industry, and industry development being the supply side. Each of these programs is sufficiently important to the economy of Manitoba to warrant the individual attention that they can now receive. Such attention is particularly required at the present time when tourism in many areas is in a depressed conditio'1. Travel to Canada by United States residents has declined two years in a row from a peak in 1973.

Interprovincial travel by Canadians is not expected to grow strongly during a period of restraint and in order to maintain a strong and viable in dustry in Manitoba the productivity of our tourism promotion expenJitures must be maxi mized. During the 1975 calendar year, non-resident visitors to the province showed no growth compared. to the previous year. The trend varies on the basis of visitor's origin with the number of Canadian visitors declining from the 1974 level and the visitors from

3700 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY -TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ••••• the United States posting an increase from the previous year. Non-resident visitors entering Manitoba in 1975 totalled 3, 143,000, being a decline of 7. 5 percent from the 197 4 levels. American visitors increased from 1, 166, 000 to 1,218, 000 or by 4. 5 percent. Visitors from overseas countries reached nearly 20,000 being an increase of 8.1 percent. Canadian visitors from the other provinces declined from 2,214,000 to 1,905,000 being a reduction of 14 percent. It would appear, Mr.

Chairman, that Canadians began to restrict long distance automobile travel during the year while the American market began to improve from the poor performance in 1974. Total spending by travellers in the province reached an all time high despite reduced numbers of visitors. Two factors are responsible for this: the higher prices for goods and services purchased by travellers and an increased length of stay by visitors to the province. It is estimated that total non-resident spending reached approximately $107,600,000 for the year, an increase from last year's level of $101,000,000.00.

Approximately half of the visitors to Manitoba arrive here in June, July and August each year and of these over 85 percent are travelling by automobile. The department's Research and Planning Branch conducted a study this past summer of the major segment of our visitor market. On the basis of personal inter views with 11,000 of these visitor parties, the value of our tourism industry is further substantiated. During the 92 days in those three months, non-resident automobile visitors to Manitoba spent over $40 million in the province.

They accounted for approximately half of all use of our hotels, motels and other commercial accommodations contributing in a central source of income to the 14, 000 Manitobans employed in the accommodation, food and beverage and recreational industries during those months. With Canadians facing economic restraints during 1976 and the American travel market improving and expected to improve substantially during their Bi-Centennial year, the new Tourism Marketing and Travel Development Branch has its work cut out.

The Branch is responsible for all tourist marketing programs, preparation of the information publications, audio-visual presentations, the tourism advertising program, promotional activities of sports shows and out-of-province shopping mall displays. In addition it ad ministers provincial travel information centres on major travel routes and in the City of Winnipeg. During 1976-77 major changes will be made in the program of tourism market ing and advertising in order to concentrate attention in only the most productive markets using the most effective media.

Funds expended in more distant markets will be reduced or deleted entirely and will be directed to Ontario, Western Canada, Minnesota and North Dakota. In the United States consumer magazine advertising will be deleted and the funds saved will be redirected to close in markets in the bordering states using radio and newspaper advertising to reach specific population centres. Expenditures applied against tourism markets in Quebec, newspaper magazine supplement use in the United States and farm magazine advertising will be reduced and the funds redirected to markets in Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

The promotion of vacationing in Manitoba by Manitobans will be strengthened with funds diverted from u.s. magazine advertising. An in-province television advertising campaign will be developed to inform Manitobans in an attractive manner of the opportunities for holidaying within the province. Increased emphasis is being placed on personal contact with potential visitors to Manitoba to increase activities such as sports and travel shows and in-store promotions.

In addition the branch has opened a new information centre called Manitoba House in Minneapolis, Minnesota, to provide firsthand information to many residents in that city who spend their vacations in Manitoba. Creating an initial interest in visiting Manitoba, finalizing a sale and subsequently maximizing the length of stay is very de pendent upon supplying prospective visitors with informative and attractive literature. The Branch now produces four major and 12 secondary booklets and brochures. Cost saving changes are being made in these programs as well.

The Manitoba Vacation Handbook is being redesigned and supplemented by regional vacation guides. By reducing the size of the Handbook and by providing regional supplements, costs have been reduced and fewer volumes of each will be required. The

May 13, 1976 3701 SUPPLY -TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) • • • • • major lure booklet will be dropped in 1976 and replaced by the Branch new publication called "Manitoba Moods" which is being sold by subscrip tion in single copies through vario:1s retail outlets. In keeping with these more direct and specific efforts to promote a variety of services and facilities available in Manitoba, the Department undertoe>k the publication of the first Guide Book on Winnipeg Restaurants.

The book called "Parsley, Sage and Cynthia Wine" written by Cynthia Wine has been a Manitoba and Canadian best seller with an almost immediate sell-out of the first printing and a strong sales continuing on the second printing. As all of these sales occilrred during what is generally the off season for non-resident visitors, we anticipate a second sell-out as we enter the busier to:1rist season. To obtain mass exposure the Branch produces films on Manitoba attractions and events. These are distributed through the National Film Board, the Canadian Gov ernment Office of Tourism and the Manitoba Film Library.

Commercial distributors are used to maximize exposure in prime market areas. During 1975 these films were viewed by an audience in excess of 18,000,000 people. Through these alterations in the organ ization and the Tourist Branch, the changes and the placement for o:tr advertising program, and the publications and Information Services, I am confident that we will see a growth in non-resident expenditures in Manitoba in 1976 and that the industry will maintain its pJ sition as one of the province's most important so·�rces of export dollars.

In order that the development of facilities, services, events and attractions in the province keep pace with the changing demands of the travelling public, the Tourist Extension and Development Branch was established to provide services to the industry in Manitoba. Regional travel industry development offices provided consultative services to existing and prospective accommodation operators, training and education courses to personnel employed in the industry, pertaining to the industry as a whole.

During the past year the development consultants responded to requests from 405 persons proposing to establish new accommo:lation facilities in Manitoba. From an initial outline of legal re quirements, financial and operation consideration, assistance to prospective operators has included formulation of feasibility studies, review of site and building plans, organizational planning, marketing programs, operation of review and management, and including em ployee training.

Of these 405 prospective new operators assisted in 1975-76, some 60 have progressed to review by the Accommodation Licensing Authority and 29 new opera tors have been issued permits to build. The development consultants annually make personal visits to all tourist licenced facilities advising operators as to physical maintenance and improveme:J.ts that can be carried out to enhance the establishment's appeal to users an:l to improve earning poten tial.

Inspections are also held on a regular basis in order to ensure compliance with standards for accommo:lation facilities under the transient accommodation facilities regu lations. The development officers are available to operators on an advisory basis as well and provide some 4, 500 contacts per year. During the past year one development consultant has been assigned to activities on prospective native operators of transient accommodation. There are at present five native owned and operated facilities and 20 prospective operators were assisted during the year.

The training an:l education program offered by the Branch consists of three levels of courses designe::l to maintain high standards of management and service and to develop awareness of the travel in:lustry's potential among the b'�siness community. Regional involvement workshops which involve all segments of regional business are organized to identify viable regional or local development opportunities and to initiate action on them.

In conjunction with the Manitoba Hotel Association and the Tourist and Convention Association, the Branch assists in organizing management seminars and in examining the possibilities of providing the industry with a long range program of man agement analysis assistance based on an electronic data processing system. Many training courses begun in the current fiscal year are organized for groups of seven or more employees involved in the industry. These courses which cover ho:tse keeping and front desk personnel, food service personnel and others, are designed to

3702 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) • • • • • assist employees in developing their sldlls and to moti vate a positive attitude towards service to patrons. The programs of the Extension and Development Branch are increasingly im portant during periods of economic restraint when particular attention must be paid to increasing the productivity of our tourism plan and ensuring that our present markets are maintained through high quality facilities and services.

Increasing numbers of Manitobans, many of whom are finding long distance automobile vacations to areas outside the province increasingly expensive, are seeldng more of their recreation and vacation experience in our provincial parklands. The Provincial Parks Branch, which is the largest single branch in the de partment, presently administers some 11 major provincial parks, 43 provincial recreation al areas, and 90 wayside parks. A total of approximately 2.2 million acres of land and water areas are included within the provincial parks system.

As well as preserving a unique and exemplary portion of the Manitoba landscape and habitat these lands over the past year provided recreational opportunities for some 4.1 million visitors, an at tendance which is 9. 9 percent higher than that experienced in 1974 and 49.5 higher than that at the beginning of the decade. During the year visitors purchased a record $202,460 park entrance permits and spent $303,952 party nights in provincial campgrounds. The program of free season al park passes for persons age 65 or over, introduced in 1974, continued to be received in 1975 ani they received 6, 835 in 1975.

This is an increase of 1, 011 from 1974 and, Sir, illustrates the interest that the elderly citizens of Manitoba have in the province's heritage of natural resources. Fee for the use of provincial parklands were adjusted in 1975-76 with increases for the rental of campsites and for leases to summer home lots being made. Thi s was the first time campground fees had been increased since 1970 and the first increase in lease rates for summer homes since 1958.

During 1976 additional increases in park fees will and - since I've had these notes typed out - have been increased in order to keep revenue in line with increase in costs of operation and maintenance of parks. The increase will affect all park user fees with the exception of campground fees and will be consistent with the guidelines of price increases being a maximum of 10 percent increase. The new Hecla Provincial Park was officially opened in July of 1975 and during the first partial season of operation had an attendance of some 60, 000 visitors.

As the park was not fully operational until late July this number of visitors indicates that it will be a highly popular destination for Manitobans. Gull Harbour Campgrounds already was utilized to 40 percent of its capacity during the season and the new style of accom modation, the low cost rental cabins were utilized at nearly 60 percent of their capacity. Research indicates that the park is drawing visitors away from some of the more heavily utilized parks such as Grand Beach and the Whiteshell and is providing visitors with a new and exciting outdoor recreation experience on Lake Winnipeg.

The campground and rental accommodation in the park will be completed during the 1976-77 fiscal year by the construction of a new 60 unit lo::lge at Gull Harbour. This facility is being constructed under an agreement with the Federal Government's Travel Industry Development program with 50 percent of the cost being supported by the Federal Government's Office of Tour ism. It should be noted that Manitoba was the only province to obtain sharing on a capi tal development project under the Industry Development program before the program was cancelled by the Federal Government.

The new lodge will provide required accommoda tion during the busy summer months and will create opportunities for year-round use of the park and it will also allow residents to enjoy short vacations in the province during the winter months, a trend that has been growing markedly in the last few years. Another very significant addition to the park system which occurred in 1975 is the area known as Bald Head Hills. This zone of open sand dunes south of Carberry was added to the Spruce Woods Provincial Park and a program of conducted hikes was offered to the park visitors.

Over 3, 000 people took advantage of these hikes provided by the park's interpretive section. Traditionally many Manitobans, particularly citizens of Winnipeg, have looked to the Whiteshell region as their primary area in which to enjoy outdoor recreation and

May 13, 1976 3703 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) • • • • • vacation activities. The rugged scenery, lakes and streams all contribute to make this part of the Canadian Shield attractive and suitable for outdoor recreation. Easily accessible by the Trans-Canada Highway, the Whiteshell has attracted larger and larger numbers of visitors each year. Since 1970 over a million visits per year are made to this park or nearly 30 percent of the total attendance to the entire park system. Such continued high use has placed severe strain on the resources of the area.

The accessible lakes have been fully developed with campgrounds, day use facilities and cottage areas. In recent years visitors to the park have begun to seek the more remote, less used areas by canoe, cross-country ski and on foot. Even these less accessible areas are reaching their capacity to accommodate further increases in use.

In order to provide for the demands which Manitobans have for recruiting in this Shield environment the Parks Branch has undertaken an intensive study over the past two years of an area along the Ontario boundary between the Whiteshell Provincial Park in the south and the Manigotagan River to the North.

During 1976-77 fiscal year a portion of this region is being officially designated as the new Nopiming Provincial Natural Park, Nopiming being an Indian word translated as meaning "into the wilderness." The new park will be accessible by provincial routes 314 and 304 and to facilitate access to the recreational opportunities in the park a new scenic road is being developed con necting the two routes between Long Lake and Cat Lake. The new road will open up ten major lakes which can support a wide range of recreation opportunities plus many smaller lakes and streams.

An important and central concept for this park, the concept that has guided the planning process, is the need to preserve the integrity of the landscape and environ ment of this region to ensure that future generations will be able to enjoy the park in its natural state. Much of the region \Vill be set aside for extensive activities such as canoeing and hiking. Low density development will be the rule. As well as providing for these popular extensive recreational activities this area will preserve the habitat for the wildlife of the region including the province's most southerly herd of woodland caribou.

I expect that many of the honourable members are aware that the department has opened its first winter park here in the carrent season called the Spring Hill Prov incial Park located 0::1 the Floodway adjacent to Highway 59 opened for use in December, 1975, with skiing facilities, tobogganing areas and zones for snowmobile use. The facili ties proved to be very popular, particularly to younger people and to novice skiers who would not otherwise be involved in the activity.

During 1976-77 the Provincial Park Development Program will consist of pro jects required to up-date existing park facilities, the expansion of facilities where the volume of use being experienced is beyond existing capacity, the completion of selected projects begun under the winter works program and the provision of priority facilities in new park areas. A total of $3.7 million is being req·J.ested; 2. 9 from general revenue and 800,000 ·illlder the FRED Program which is shared 60 p9rcent by the Federal Govern ment and the Winter Capital Works Program.

A major share of these funds are for the improvement and development of water and sewer utilities in existing parks and for road repairs. Service and staff facilities will be provided or improved at Hecla Provincial Park and at the Selkirk Training Plant. The program of providing marine services and facilities will be continued with develop ment of launching and wharf facilities provided at Balsam Bay, the construction of an on-shore facility for boat launch and wharf on the Red River at th9 Floodway and engineer ing studies for marina facilities at Grand Beach.

Renovations and improvements will be made to the old log building in Hecla Provincial Park and the ski chalet at Falcon Lake. Funds under the FRED program will be used to improve facilities at Lundar Beach, Watchorn Bay and the Steep Rock recreational area, all in the Interlake region. A total of $1.2 million in capital is included for development work at Assiniboine Park and Zoo. Over the last few years increasing numbers of Manitobans have been seeking summer cottage opportunities.

Many of these people would be satisfied if they could rent a cottage for a few weeks for their vacation while others want to build or purchase their own. Programs of the department are designed to satisfy the demand of both these

3704 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) • • • • • groups. In 1975-76 the department began a program to develop rental log cabin accomodation in several areas. The program actually serves a dual purpose. It provides rental cottages and assists in developing techniques for log building construction, techniques that should prove extremely useful in the northern part of our province. In 1976-77 the program will be continued With 25 units developed at Camp Morton, Ironwoo:l Point, Eden Lake as well as in other parks and recreational areas.

For families who choose to own their own cottage the Parks Branch opened up for public leasing a new cottage subdivision at Bannock Point on Lake Dauphin consisting of 35 lots and an additional 20 lots on Lake Wanipigow. In 1976-77 work Will continue on cottage subdivision on the Shellmouth Reser-voir at Long Lake and W endigo and at more areas in the north. Lots in several of these subdivisions will be available in 1976. An announcement to that effect will be made whenever this is possible.

The program of providing allotment for vegetable gardens for residents of the City of Winnipeg which began last fiscal year will be continued. During 1975 over 200 of these plots were rented to residents primarily apartment dwellers and it is anticipated that this will increase to several times that number in 1976. The provincial park system provides a major resource for outdoor recreation opportunities for Manitobans seeking vacations in the province, for activities on weekends and preserve important segments of the provincial environment.

A more local level of outdoor recreation opportunities required in close proximity to communities throughout the province to provide facilities for recreation activities on weekdays and for short distance travel . Regional parks developed by communities and rural municipalities pro vide such local opportunities and in order to encourage the future development of region al parks throughout Manitoba the department is looking at pursuing the policy established in 1975 in sharing costs with the municipalities pertaining to regional parks.

The budget for the Parks Branch during 1976-77 for the operation and main tenance of existing facilities and services will be maintained at the existing level of service, with an increase of s. 5 percent to cover cost increases. Increases in the Special Projects Appropriation have been made in order to provide additional funds for the Regional Parks Program and for work to control forest tent caterpillar and Dutch elm disease.

Growth in the operations and maintenance program is being kept to an absolute minimum but it is our intention that increasing efficiencies in this area will allow the department to maintain services at the standards which Manitobans have come to expect. Responsibility for the identification, acquisition, restoration and

interpretation of the the mes, buildings and sites of significance to the human history of Manitoba rests with the Historical Resources Branch of the Department. The history of man and woman in Manitoba extends over ten thousand years and the goal of the Historic Resource Branch is to identify the major themes which char acterize this long history and to interpret them to Manitobans. This is best acc omplished through archeological excavations, authentic restorations and reconstructions and public information programs based on sound research.

The province, through this program, can provide the leadership and stimulus to entice historic conservation efforts in Manitoba. The archeological program in the Branch has completed the development of a basic theme program for archeological research and

interpretation during the fiscal year. This will serve as the guide to the Branch archeological investigations and give direc tion to work by the universiti es. Regulations were developed concerning the conduct of archeological work in the province to ensure that significant sites are properly researched and recorded. During the year the Branch oversaw applications for archeological permits for work at 20 locations and monitored activities at the sites.

The most active sites are along the Winnipeg River and the Manigotagan River and the Churchill River and the Southern Indian Lake region and at a number of locations in south western Manitoba. The Historic Branch completed the restoration of Hecla Church during 1975 and the partial restoration of six other buildings of historical and architectural significance, in cluding Maison Turenne and Grund Luthern Church.

May 13, 1976 370 5 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'

d) Evaluations were completed on the architectural sotmdness and significance of such buildings as St. Mary's Anglican Church in Virden, Mutter's Store in Brandon. That's a word a person from French extraction can say quite well. It's not "mother" it's "M utter's " - Mutter's Store in Brandon, and the St. Boniface Hotel.

Survey pro jects to identify structures of architectural and historical importance in rural Manitoba communities and in northern communities were continue::!, Information gathered in these projects is made available to the municipal jurisdictions to assist them in physical plan ning in their region. The 1976-77 Budget for the Branch continues to work during this fiscal year and make provisions for an increased grant to the City of Winnipeg for support to the city's historical program and for a grant to the Vintage Locomotive So::: iety for the Prairie Dog Central.

The latter grant is a one-time support to allow the society to refurbish its rolling stock to meet the standards of the Canadian Transport Commission. The Prairie Dog Central consists of an 1882 steam locomotive, four passenger cars and a baggage car. Renovations will be made to the facilities to keep this authentic reso:1rce in operation during 1976-77. The train provides an attraction uniq·.te in Canada and has proven its popularity with both residents and visitors over the past few years. The Heritage Manitoba Act passed at the last session of the Provincial Legis lature was proclaimed in 1975.

Announcements of appointment to the board of this organization will be made ::luring 1976 and the program of the Foundation will be pre pared. While receiving programs of historical resources, it should be noted that the Provincial Archives completed the move from the Legislative Building to the new Mani toba Archives Building in 1975. Many members will have had a chance to see the new building for themselves since the research rooms were opened to the public last April, or when the whole building was officially opened last September 23rd.

This impressively converted building will be able to provide a home for the printed and visual records of Manitoba's history for many decades to come. Honourable members will recall that in 1974 the Hudson's Bay Company moved its vast and invaluable archives, dating from 1670, to Canada from England and deposited them in the archives of Manitoba. Since the new reading rooms were opened April 17th, not only Manitoba researchers but also scholars from across Canada as well as from such diverse American states as Virginia, California and North Dakota have travelled to work in them.

It has been said frequently that this is the age of visual mass media. Cer tainly the fruit of these o"!Jservations is supported by the numbers of requests received by the Provincial Archives from television stations, movie makers, book publishers, school systems and the general public for copies of documents, paintings, photographs, and maps. In 1975 for example 6, 413 orders were handled, an average of 26 during each working day. In order to maintain this service during 1976-77, one position is being added to the branch.

Beyond this addition the program will remain basically at current levels over the next fiscal year. The Legislative Library also completed its move from the sp:lCe occupie::l in the Legislative Building to the Archives Building during the year. With the assistance of the Department of Public Works the task of moving the massive quantity of material was accomplished in a little over four months in time for the official opening of the new building.

The greatly ex-panded stack area, the special quarters provided for various services and the improved work areas are already proving valuable in making materials more accessible and allowing the staff to work with greater efficiency. Plans have been made and will be in full operation during the 1976-77 year that will revise library pro cedures, reorganize the collections and generally make more efficient the performance of the library in its service to the hono:Irable members, personnel of government de partments and the public.

In my last Budget address I was pleased to announce new levels of support that are being provided through o'.lr public library service branch to the many municipal

3706 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) • • • • • and regional libraries in Manitoba. At that time the new support formula called for a $2. 00 per capita grant to a maximum of 50 percent of operat ing costs for libraries serving over 10 , 000 people. Since that time the new support level has been extended also to regional libraries serving three or more municipal jurisdictions regardless of population size . Provisions have been made in the 1976-77 Budget of the Public Library Service Branch which will enable the staff to begin investigating and plan ning in two important areas .

Work will commence on program plans for library services to special groups such as the visually and physically disabled, the elderly, homebound and the institutionalized. These groups to date have been underserviced by public libraries generally and special attention mus t be paid to them on a priority basis . The second program is designed to provide a set of standards for public libraries in the province which reflect the particular Manitoba situation.

Standards will service as invaluable tools to the individual libraries in the province and will help them guide their growth and development in a logical and realistic manner. These projects will require the involvement of community groups and citizens throughout the province and staff of the Department will be contacting and working with them towards these programs.

Within the Recreation and Cultural Affairs division of the Department the Secre tariat of Federal- Provincial Cultural Relations is responsible for the program of support to multi-cultural organizations, the grants to major cultural institutions and organizations in the province and Francophone matters as related to The Official Languages Act as well as minority language and cultural rights.

The Secretariat maintains provincial responsibility for programs emanating from international agreements with Canada, with international ag" reements which Canada has entered into such as the Franco-Canada Agreement, the Soviet Canada Cultural Agreement, the Conference of Ministers of Education of French-speaking countries and others . Again during the past year , valuable advice and assist ance has been provided by two well functioning advisory committees on multi-cultural and Francophone matters , namely the Minis ter's Advisory Committee on Multi-Culturalism and Comite Consultatif aupres du Ministre .

I am pleased to report that the highly successful linguistic support program providing grant assistance to organizations teaching ancestral languages ou tside the public school sys tem will become an ongoing program of the Secr etariat. In excess of 5, 000 students will have benefited from this program in 1975. The Secretariat will also continue to support the culture and language camps at which children can experience their respective ancestral language and culture while enjoying our provincial parklands.

Man itobans can take a great deal of pride in the leadership role that citizens and organizations have shown in advancing the multi-cultural nature of our society in Manitoba and the De partment's program designed to assist their efforts will continue to receive priority in the Secretariat's function. Major cultural institutions such as the Museum of Man and Nature, the Winnipeg Art Gallery, the Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium , the Centre Cultural Franco Manitobain and the Centennial Centre Corporation all continue to increase in popularity and use by the citizens of Man itoba.

Attendance at these facilities has never been larger. The program of grants to assist in the operation and maintenance of these facilities will be continued in 1976-77 to ensure that they can maintain their present valuable service to the Manitoba community. I wish at this point to mention the efforts of the Manitoba Arts Council for their service to the province as the agency responsible for distributing grants to our major performing and visual arts organizations . Through the efforts of their staff, board members and chairmen, our cultural life continues to be enriched.

Le Secretariat des Relations culturelles federales-provinciales maintient son role de liaison avec divers organismes ainsi qu'avec les gouvernements provinciaux et federal concernant la loi des deux langues officielles . C'e st pourquoi, le Secretariat continue de representer la province a des conferences internationales regroupant les pays de langue francaise, pour se pencher sur des sujet s communs dans le domaine du loisir, et de la culture et !'e ducation.

C'e st par sa participation active aux reunions et programmes de l'Ag ence de cooperation culturelle et technique que le Secretariat a obtenu en 1975 -76, une bourse d' etude de 5 mois en animation culturelle et une bourse d'un an en gestion a l'Ec ole internationale de Bordeaux, pour deux jeunes manitobains . Par le truchement de

May 13, 1976 3707 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont 'd) • cette meme Ag ence , cinq artisans manitobains ont vu de leur oeuvr es faire

partie d'une expos ition artisanale a l'I le Maurice. En plus , une de nos jeunes artistes participait activement a !' organi sat ion de cette exposition a l' Ile Maurice. Une autre jeune manitobaine a participer a un chantier de reboisement regroupant des jeunes francophones de quelques vingt pays , en Haute Volta , Afrique. Par l'e ntremise de l' A ccord cultu re! France/Canada, trente-cinq profes seurs de fran<;ais langue premiere , ou langue seco nde ont eu !' occasion de passer un mois dans une universite fran9aise, poursuivant leur formation pedago gique tout en beneficiant d 'un bain culture!.

Pour la premiere fo is, cette annee, une evaluation tres systematique et structuree a ete faite de ces cours . Les premiers resultats semblent tres encou rageants . La France a encore cette annee, mis a la disposit ion de la communaute franco phone , un cons eiller pedagogique et un jou rnaliste. En retour le Secretariat offre deux bou rses d'etude pour des etudiants franyais . Le Cinebibliobus que la France avait opere jusqu'a cette annee , vient d'�tre achete par la province et servira de vehicule de diffusion d'information culturelle , et tou ristique. L'Acco rd culture!

Belgo- Canadien tenait sa premiere reunion cette annee, acc ord duquel so rtira sans doute des progra mmes d'�changes tres interessants pour le Manitoba . In order to provide for communications by Provincial Government Departments and agencies in both of Canada 's official language s, the Translation Services Branch was established in the Department in 1974. In 19 75-7 6 fiscal year, the small staff of four served over 75 different agencies and branches of the province, translating so me 600 ,0 00 words .

Departments are now billed for this work and it is expected that the service will be largely self-supporting during 1976-77. The delivery of community recreation programs to citizens of the province has always been and will continue to be a primary responsibility of the local municipal levels of governme nt. However the programs of the Re creation Branch of my Department will continue to provide technical, financial and org anizational support to these local jurisdictionE: to ensure that each community has an adequate level of recreat ion and cultural opportuni ties for its residents .

The major programs of this Branch assist in mobilizing the human and phys ical resour ces throughout the province that cont ribute to the expanding and the improving of leisure pursuits. For the Recreation Branch, 1976-7 7 will be a year of consol idation and internal strengthening, There will be no significant new program s but the restructuring of so me existing services to increase their effectiveness in the delivery of services to all regions and steps to improve program efficiency.

During 1975-76 the program of grants to com munities hiring full-t ime recreation director s provided assistance to 22 jurisdictions . In order that such assistance can be made available to the smaller centres a new program for the establishment of recreation districts was started in 1975-76. Four such districts were organized and directors will be hired in each. Since this program allows a number of rural communities to combine efforts in supporting recreation service, hence reducing overall costs, attention will be concentrated in this area in 1976-77.

In the remote northern commu nities the possi bility of such co-opera tive efforts to provide recreation leadership are lacking since communities are isolated from one an other. The need for recreat ion programs in these areas , howev er, is equally as impor· tanto During 1975 a New Careers program was init iated jo intly between my department and the Department of Colleges and Universities to provide 13 recreation director trainees for 9 northern communities. These include Churchill, Moose Lake, Shamatta wa, Thomps on, Brochet, Wabow den, Eas terville , Cross Lake and Berens River.

The program serves the dual purpose of providing recreation program leadership in these communities and a New Career training opportunity for the young people participating in it. A second program to provide lower cost recreation progra mming in the northern centres was developed co operatively with the Frontier School Division.

Seven communities are now receiving the services of teacher recreation directors : Duck Bay, Pelican Rapids , Cormorant, South Indian Lake, Wabowd en, Berens River and Norway House are included in this program and have experienced excellent results in combining community and school reso urces to

3708 May 13, 19 76 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) • establish new recreational programs . The teacher recreation directors devote their time equally to community recreation services and school programs . While reviewing the department's activities in northern Manitoba I would like to get the attention of my legislative assis tant, the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, and indicate to the members of the House that he has provided me with a firsthand overview of the effectiveness of our programs in the north and has contributed valuable advice in the development of recreational service in northern communities.

In order to help ensure effective delivery of programs - that is the programs which people want - regional recre ation councils has been formed in each of the seven rural regions of Manitoba. Sub committees of these councils deal with Creative Arts Programs, Manitoba Games , senior citizen programs , and facilities development. The Regional Recreation specialists employ ed by the Branch will be working closely with these councils in 197 6 to keep them inform ed of provincial programs that affect the region and to co-ordinate use of both local and provincial resources in program development.

The sub-committees on facilities will play an important role in advising the department's program of capital grants for facilities development. Since the inception of the Capital Grants program a total of $3 ,257, 314. 74 has been paid out on projects in communities throughout Manitoba. Series four of the grants program will be completed during 19 76 with funds from the proceeds of Wes can Lottery. Also with funds from this lottery program the Recreation Branch will continue the success ful Festival Manitoba program in 1976-77 with incre!lsed emphasis being placed on activities in rural Manitoba.

Funds from this program will be utilized to strengthen regional pro grams in the performing and visual arts and to provide residents of rural areas with opportunities to participate more actively in the cultural life of their community. The emphasis being placed by the Recreational Branch on programs which result in the co ordination and sharing of resources will serve to increase community opportunities for leisure activities in 1976 within budgets that are all feeling the effects of limited growth.

The department's Research and Planning Branch and Manitoba Horse Racing Corn mis sion over the past several years have examined critical provincial involvement with the racing industry and studied techniques for stimulating its development. The studies have already led to important program innovations and regulatory changes and the department plans to act upon several of the remaining recommendations . Three important improvements occurred in 1975, First the department imple mented the new purse grant formula. Purse grants now increase with growth in wagering.

Second, the Breeders ' Incentive program, which was introduced in 197 4 was expanded to encompass the rural harness circuit and four-year-old thoroughbreds . Third, the thorough bred season was extended from 56 to 70 days following passage of enabling legislation. Along with imaginative new management at Ass iniboia Downs , the Provincial Government purse grant formula and extension of the thoroughbred season were key factors in the spectacular 41 percent growth in wagering the industry achieved during 1975.

Pro vincial wagering topped $24 million which is an all time record. 1976-77 will be an espe cially crucial year for the province 's racing industry. Legislation to reduce the tax burden on the industry has been announced and will be pursued. This year for the first time the province will provide funds to the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission to improve the Commission's administration and regulation of racing and to enable it to hire a full-time executive director.

Re-organization was necessitated by increases in the size and com plexity of the industry since the Commission was formed and by future development needs of the racing industry. There are two other noteworthy changes that will benefit the industry in 1976-77 . First, a further six day extension of the thoroughbred season has been authorized by amend ment to the regulation. Consequently Ass iniboia Downs will conduct a 76 -day thoroughbred meeting this year. Sec ond, the department will enrich this program of assis tance to the rural harness circuit.

Although the general economy may not be as conducive to strong growth as in 1975 -76 , the depa rtment forsees another year of exceptional growth for the Manitoba Horse Racing industry if the department's other programs are bolstered by enact ment of tax reduction.

May 13, 19 76 3709 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN con t'

d) With the principal challenge for the dernrtment in 19 76-77 being the Inaintenance of levels of service required by Manitobans within restrained budget allocation, the focus of work of the department 's Research and Planning Branch will be on internal program review and analys is designed to increase program effectiveness and efficiency. The resea rch program for the Provincial Parks Branch will concentrate on the improvement of existing inventory control systems and procedures and the development of information required for parks master planning.

Anticipated changes over the next few years in recreation demands caused by increased costs of travel and recreation service must be delineated and new program policy alternatives ou tlined. Research funds allocated to the tourism programs will be used to gauge the success of the changes made in these areas and increased emphasis will be placed on developing understanding of the . MR. CHAIRMA N: Order pleas e. The time allotted for the Honourable Minister has expired. --(Interjection)-- Does the Minister have leave ? (Agreed) MR. TOUPIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've only got about five or ten minutes. Thank you.

Increased empha sis, Mr. Chairman, will be placed on developing understanding of the substantially different community cultural and recreati onal activities in order to anticipate effects of prog ram changes and to develop programs in a most efficient manner . With a Research and Planning program budget which is less than in previous years the work of the Branch will be directed towards strengthening existing services rather than the development of new services.

As we enter in the latter half of this decade a period of ec onomic restra ints on the part of individuals and governme nts we can expect to feel so me effects on our recreation, vacation and cultural activities . Some higher cost alter natives which people have been enjoying or looking forward to may have to be deferred. This does not mean, howev er, that Manitobans of any social or economic group would be without healthful and enjoyable activities to engage them during their leisure time or re laxing places to spend a family vacation.

Through program changes and developments which I have discussed, it is the department 's goal to increase the recreation opportunities available to all our residents, to assist Manitobans in realizing the quality of life they seek. I wish to thank the honourable members for their attention and I hope that I'm able to deal with their constructive criticism.

3710 May 13, 197 6 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 109(

b) Policy and Program Development:

(1) Salaries $191 , 200- -pass, - the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I just wonder where we can deal with the boards and commis sions that come under the Minister's jurisdiction. They are not responsible to the Deputy Minister are they ? Such as the Centennial Corporation, and Man and Nature, Does it come under this item ? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, the boards and commissions , most of which answer directly to me. MR .

CHAffiMAN: I would say in that case to the honourable member that the probable spot would be under the Minister's salary when we return to his salary. (b)(1) the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKE NZIE: I wonder, Mr . Chairman, would the Minister first of all give us a breakdown of his staff in the whole department and any changes that he 's had in the past year . MR . TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm unable at this time to give details pertaining to staff persons that have left the department and have been replaced, or to indicate the filling of vacancies caused by an increase of staff man years during 19 75-76 . I can attempt to obtain this information for the honourable member and supply it to the House at the first opportunity but I don't have the manual here that deals with past people directly. I can only deal with programs , policies and details pertaining to those programs and policies but not neces sarily to staff thems elves .

I would like to indicate to the honourable member that pertaining to the boards that do answer directly to myself, they would be the Film Clas sification Appeal Board, the Public Library Advisory Board, the Historical Sites Advisory Board. There 's a Policy Committee that I formed that deals directly with me; there 's the Board of the Centre Culture! Franco-Manitobain. There 's the Museum of Man and Nature Planetarium and Heritage Manitoba .

The other boaros that answer to myself and to my Deputy Minister is again the Film Class ification Board in certain cases, especially per taining to administrative matters; the Manitoba Arts Council, the Horse Racing Commis sion, Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, the Advisory Committee of Multi Culturalism and the Advisory Committee on Tourism . MR. McKENZ IE: Mr. Chairman, just a brief question . I think all the annual reports from the Minister 's office were tabled . I think were all tabled together in February some time .

But these various boards and commissions I recall last year that we had a report for the Legislature from the Film Class ification Board. I can't recall having received one this year . Are there any of the other ones that provide reports for the mem bers, such as the Manitoba Games Board . Do they have any annual reports that • • • or do they all just go to the Minister ? MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, to my lrn.owledge I've tabled all reports that I'm compelled to table . I can recall tabling last year the report of the Film Classification Board and I can so do again this year .

There is a report that they made to me quite recently and if honourable members are wanting a copy of that report I'll make it avail able to them . But all reports that are compulsory to be tabled in the House, to my lrn.owledge, have been tabled. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 9(b)(1) - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: Mr . Chairman, I thank the Minister for an exhaustive treat ment of the Department but I wonder if he could explain under this heading what particular policy development the department is now contemplating.

He described the end result in the development of some new parks and some reorganizing of the Tourism Branch. I wonder if he could indicate if there is any new policy and program initiative that the de partment is presently working on ? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I indicated in my opening remarks that the funds made available under this

section wouW not allow myself and offic ials of the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs to engage in that many new policy reviews but we would certainly concentrate most of our efforts pertaining to staff man years and dollar-wise in maintaining programs at at least the same level that people expect of us

May 13, 19 76 3711 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) •.• •• in 197 6 .

We're reviewing our internal policies pertaining to existing programs to see if it would be at all possible to cut down on certain areas and launch oursel ves in new directions that would not cost more to the taxpayers but offer a better service to Manitobans wanting to avail themselves of programs initiated directly or indirectly through boards and commissions that are responsible to the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs in regards to facilities and regards to grants that are being given, again either directly through the department through facility grants programs or through the Arts Counc il or other boards and commissions that are set up to advise myself or that pay out directly amounts that are given to them at the beginning of the year .

The provision of the development and policy programs is really aimed to ensure effective achievements in relation to government policy and consumer population needs so it's quite vast in context. But I really want the Planning and Research Secretariat of my department to review internally policies that hav e been implemented many years ago but I feel should be reviewed because of the lack of additional funds sought for in 19 76-77 .

The provision for long range planning assi stance and central computer services for the department as well as for the development measures and anal ysis of the output efficiency and effectiveness of the department 's programs . Here we include approximately, I believe it's 12 permanent staff man years consis ting of a director, eight ana lysis plan ning assist ants and two support staff. There is 2.2 6 term assist ants which is a total increase of 13 . 7 over last year . The three staff man year increase represents the con version of three analyst positions from contract to permanent status .

The re 's no net change in current expenditures re sulting from the conversion . There is several areas , Mr. Chair man , that are intended to be reviewed in regards to the development of tourism expenditures and impact models that were reviewed and will continue to be reviewed in 19 76-77 . There's the collection of the annual tourism statistical data; there is the program of performan::e output and effectiveness; the develop ment of guideline standards for recreation facilities and programs in communities in the province.

There is the program of house hold leisure alternative study, the tourism de velopment and extension program assi stance . There is the horse racing industry study that was started in 19 75-76 that will be continued in 19 76-77 because the legislation that is forthcoming to the House make s provision for only one year under legislation to be extendable by Order-in-Council . So we want to make sure that what is being recommended as an amendment to The Amus ement Act, in reducing the pari-mutuel tax will result in a benefit to all sectors of the industry.

So that will be continued through the planning and research capacity within my department and including expertise that now lies within the Horse Racing Commission . There 's a white paper being developed jointly through Parks Canada, the City of Winnipeg and my department pertaining to heritage resources and mainly in the City of Winnipeg. We 're attempting not to duplicate what has been done by Parks Canada but using that as a base and launching from there in attempting to do things pertaining to recommendations of historical sites dating back say before 19 16.

Parks Canada have pretty well completed that study and we 're hoping to be able to save dollars provincially in using a fait accompli caused by federal dollars and I don't intend to pour more funds in 19 76 in research of more historical sites or historical areas in the City of Winnipeg or elsewhere, without being able to apply some of the funds that we have voted, which is approximately a qua rter of a million, in doing ce rtain refurbishing of sites that have been declared and will be declared in 19 76 by the Historical Sites Advisory Board .

There will be a continued effort in regards to studies conducted for the public library service that led to the policy that the government announc ed last year to assist municipali ties that were wanting to avail themselves of that service either alone or with the public school system library service. The policy will be kept on that program to see if it is at all possible to integrate even a bit more with the public school library service in more areas of the province. These, Mr. Chairman, are some of the examples that we 're involved in pertaining to policy revi ew and possible development in the future . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge .

3712 May 13 , 197 6 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. AXW ORTHY: Mr . Chairman, the Minister, when he as givmg his list of examples omitted some that I would have thought would have been obvious areas for re asses sment, in particular the troublesome area that he talked about in his opening remarks concerning the support of arts and culture in the province. It has been I suppose certainly one of the most troublesome and difficult areas of ministerial responsibility over the past year. It will probably get worse as the cost sq ueeze grows and as the demands grow higher .

I think there were many of the arts and cultural organizations in the province which are beginning to find that they are falling furthe r into deficit . It would appear that this would have been an area for a necessar y review of both of the amounts of money and the way in which it was distributed, and the criteria that are used to give it to people . I'm wondering if the Minister has any basis for giving us perhaps even some thoughts about the kind of direction that the government might be working in to deal with this part icular area in his department. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I certainly left out quite a few areas that the department's Planning and Research Branch will be involved in either directly or through asses sments of other staff within the department itself. The arts and culture is certainly one of them that will be done jointly between the Planning and Research Secre tariat of the department and with that expertise that we have on the Arts Council and hope fully with quite a few groups within the arts themselves involved in reviewing what is now happening, what sh ould happen jointly between diff erent levels of government and private individuals or corporations .

I don't believe that any level of the Crown, whether it be municipal, provincial or federal, can sustain the financ ial requirements pertaining to arts and/or culture . I think it has to be a shared responsibility with individuals and the lay input that we've had over the years has to continue in my humble opinion, and be empha sized in the future because of the financial cons traints that we 're in . So there certainly will be a pursuit of goals that we may jointly have pertaining to arts and culture in the future . There are a couple of other examples that I'd like to cite while I'm on my feet, Mr.

Ch airman, one being the Red and As siniboine River Development Plan will be pursued in 1976 and we 're quite hopeful that we'll be able to receive more than co-operation by the Federal Government . The indication that I've received in the last few meetings that I've had with them is that they're quite ready to pursue financ ial participation, not only in the study that was conducted about five years ago, but in the execution of works to be had along the Red and Assiniboine Rivers .

There is a federal -provincial agreement being con templated pertaining to ARC, the Agreement of Rec reation and Conservation Program. The department and Parks Canada are considering the cost-s haring of development along the Red, As siniboine and related services that could be tied in with the Red and Ass iniboine Rivers . So there 's quite a bit there to be had in regards to discuss ions with the federal officials and on the political level betweenmyself and the Federal Ministers invol ved . MR. AXW ORTHY: Mr . Chairman, I would thank the Minister for talking a little bit about the Red and As siniboine.

I'd like to come back to that. I don't want to get totally deflected though from the questions related to the re-examination he's talking about in relation to support for the arts. I'm wondering if the Minister, in the review that is now being undertaken by the Secretariat plus the Arts Council, has developed any assess ment as to what the kind of dollar requirements are going to be for the cultural institu tions and arts institutions in the province say over the next three or four years and what the shortfall might be under the present funding .

It's my understanding af ter looking at some of the reports that they've almost reached the saturation level from the point of view of clients . They just can't get any more people in cultural halls than they are able to and the ticket level is reaching a certain point of upward fre eze . When the Minister says that he's planning to try and recruit or enlist the support of the private sector, I wonder if he might be able to provide some more details . Does that indicate that the level of provincial support is going to be frozen or is it to remain static?

Can he indi cate what is anticipated now in terms of the commitment that will have to be made by the Provincial Government to support these institutions or are certain areas going to be cut out and the money directed into very specific targets?

May 13, 1976 3713 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. TOUPIN: Well again , Mr . Chairman, it 's not possible for me to indicate the long range fin ancial needs of those cultural institutions and/or groups that we have in society over the next few years . I think that should be part and has been part of the study conducted pertaining to individual groups like the Art Gallery, the Museum of Man and Nature, the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and so on because we've been fighting fires unfortu nately pertaining to a lot of these financ ial needs .

We've had to participate on covering deficits on a matching dollar for dollar basis pertaining to past deficits that were not only caused by activities within province but caused by some of the groups touring different parts of the world and causing a deficit to occur . Because of that and because of the sometimes lack of control on the budgeting of those given groups it is sometimes difficult to plan effecti vely with them in the provision of fina ncial assistance .

The type of support that is being had as compared to last year, to the major groups, would be approximately the same amount apart from a short increase . I c an cite the exact amounts if the honour able member would like me to do so . As an example, the Museum of Man and Nature the adjusted grant in 19 75-76 was $1, 00 0, 000 . The amount contained within the Estimates for the Museum of Man and Nature is $1 ,2 30, 000 . Now it's easier to plan eff ectively with the Museum of Man and Nature than it would be with other groups .

The Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, as an example, the amount given in 19 75-76 is $509, 700; the amount within the Estimates for this fiscal year is $77 1, 300 . The Manitoba Arts Council, the amount provided for in 19 75-76 was $431, 000; the amount within the Estimates is $535, 000 . There's not a large increase for the Arts Council here but it is provided that the Arts Council will be able to raise additional funds by means of lottery revenue. This will be over and beyond the amount that is contained within the Estimates here.

I'm hoping that they'll have more financ ial flexibility to enter into other sectors that they haven't been able to help like writers, publishers and so on. That is cer tainly the desire of the Arts Council, at least pertaining to the discussions that I've had with them. You have other groups like the Winnipeg Ar t Gallery, the amount there was $350, 000 in 19 75-76, that was the adjusted amount . The amount in the Estimates was $256, 000 but we brought our amount up to $350, 000 and the amount within the Estimates for the Art Gallery is $385, 000 .

But over and beyond the amount of $38 5, 000, we have committed the government to share on the deficit to a maximum of $250, 000 meaning that their deficit being I believe close to $500, 000, that we would share to a maximum of $250 ,0 00 on the deficit . They have not raised that amount as yet . We've had the same arrangement with the Contemporary Dancers to a smaller amount, $37, 500 . The last communique I had from them they had raised about $35, 000 of their $37 , 000 so they were able to benefit from the commitment of sharing of defic its .

We 're hoping, in rectifying past defic its, that staf f within the department, the Ar ts Council certainly, and those given groups will be able to sit down and formulate a budget that would be realistic enough providing for a deficit at the end of each year . I think there needs to be better planning pertaining to ongoing expenditures. That means that they'll have to possibly be more realistic pertaining to out-of-pro vince performanc es .

It 's sometimes diff icult to have performanc es in other provinces in Canada, in other countries of the world without knowing of the financ ial success or let's say no success at all, which contributed to some of the deficits that we've seen in some of these groups . MR. AXW ORTHY: Mr. Chairman, one other line of questioning in relation to the planning and program development that the Minister is carrying out . He indicated that he is presently sitting down with a number of the cultural and arts groups in the province to work out these plans.

I wonder if he could indicate what kind of involvement they have at this stage . Is it sort of an individualized thing where they sit down with the Arts Council and work out a budget or is there some attempt to bring the different sectors of arts and culture together through their Ass ociations and to do some joint planning of faciliti es • To give one example, I understand that there is some talk about planning new facilities in and around the Theatre Cultural Complex area. I want to know if there is any

3714 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• discussion about multiple use of those facilities amongst all the arts groups as opposed to just one or two using them. I am really asking the question: in the program review that he 's undertaking to what degree is the Arts Council really acting as a co-ordinating body in the planning of these programs, or is it really simply a funding agency that doles out dollars as they come supplicating.

If so what can be done to bring about a higher degree of joint planning amongst different groups so they can perhaps share facilities, offices, staff and other forms of activities so that each group doesn't have its own P.R. person or its own office, secretaries and so on, that there may be a sharing on the administrative -management side . MR. TOUPIN: I would like to mention, Mr. Chairman, that more and more the Arts Council is involved not only in giving grants to these different groups but it's involved in the preparation of budgets and the long range planning.

The Arts Council is not endowed with a large staff so in a lot of cases they're seconded, they do benefit from seconded staff from the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs for that purpose . We don't have a building in Winnipeg, as an example, nor do we have one in Brandon nor Thompson, to try and group these people together pertaining to administrative capabilities. I think there may be an advantage to look at that possibility in the future, to have a pool of resources of hired people to serve more than one purpose .

I think the type of planning and funding now is more a firefighting approach than it is sound planning for the future . I think more has to be done in that direction but I don't believe that we have the financial flexibility pertaining to dollars or st aff man years within the Estimates now to be able to accomplish that in 1976-77 . The only way I believe that we could make a step in that direction, in the fiscal year we 're in, would be to try and get them to agree to sit down together and work more closel y together as groups .

The Arts Council itself has a new dynamic Executive Director that I believe is being able to polarize the forces that much more pertaining to better budgeting, better planning, but there still is a lot to be had directly by our department and equally by the agencies that are supported . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr .

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, through you, what program development thrusts are being taken in the area purely of tourist development and tourist program expansion and how competitive and how combative is the Manitoba posture in this field, and whether there are any united efforts being made.

For example, efforts that would combine the marketing approach of Manitoba with Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia and develop programs that would encourage tourists to come to western Canada which would result hopefully in a Manitoba share in that traffic, or whether everything is being done on an individual single province basis . By the same token I think possibly the north central mid-west could be looked at as a unit. Programs might be developed ilwolving Manitoba, the Dakotas and Minnesota.

Are there efforts being made in this direction or are we out there operating all alone and competing against 48 or 50 states and nine other provinces and a dozen other countries in what is a highly competitive industry right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs . MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, in regards to co-operation between different levels of government, different groups in society, we're attempting to co- operate to the best of our ability with agencies that have been set up to help the tourist industry.

Groups have formed themselves to attempt to answer needs of members, that are there to acco=odate tourists and work very closely with the department. To be able to save taxpayers ' dollars we 're co-operating with Ontario quite well pertaining to tourist reception centres . I believe we have one of the best tourist reception centres at the crossing of the Ontario/Manitoba border . We 've attempted to have the same arrangement with our Saskatchewan counterpart and we haven't been able to .

So this smer we will have a trailer - it's funny but I can't indicate a lie to the House - we'll have a trailer but on the Manitoba side; it will not be on the border. We're having pretty good co-operation in the State of Minnesota . Manitoba House in Minneapolis is jointly operated and funded between Industry and Com merce and the Department of Tourism and Recreation and Cultural Affairs and we 're

May 13, 19 76 3715 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont 'd) ••••• receiving good co-o peration from businesses and from the Government of Minnesota pertaining to measures that have to be taken to advertise Manitoba and promote Manitoba better . We 're not having the same result, I must say, in England, France and other countries of the world . I think that can be perfected in the future but will only be perfected with better co- operation by the Federal Government.

I don't believe that it would be financ ially feasible for every province in Canada to have a house say in England and France and othe r countries of the world. I think it has to be done more effecti vely by the Canadian Offic e of Tourism . There 's a tendency in the Canadian Office of Tourism to promote British Columbia, Quebec but forge tting about the prairie provinces . I believe that we have to attempt to rectify that .

Discussions are taking place either directly through the Ministers responsible in ottawa and certainly through the Canada Travel Council where we hope to be able to ameliorate the situation at that level. MR . SHERMAN: Well, Mr . Chairman, are there for example, programs being worked out and developed between the four western provinces to bring tourists into the four western provinces and ensure that Manitoba gets their share of the package rather than just in trying to encourage tourism into Manitoba in an isolated way .

Can we capitalize at all on some of the attractions of the far west and can the far west capitalize at all on some of our attractions and share in the trade-offs by putting packages together that would bring people to western Canada as such and ensure that Manitoba gets a fair chunk of that package. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there has been discussions in the past attempting to enable us to do that .

Unfortunately it 's only been at the discussion level and nothing to my knowledge has really materialized for me to be able to say to the House that , yes, we 've agreed between Manitoba and Saskatchewan to have a joint recep tion centre, that we 've agreed to have promoting off icers that would serve the western provinces, that we 've agreed to have package tours say from the States, from different parts of the world, jointly on behalf of the three or four western provinces . No, we haven't been able to do that .

I think there certainly would be a benefit , the same as the benefits that had not originally been seen through the possibility of setting up a Western Canadian lotte ry. Eventually, I think it will be realized as an alternative that was viable but initially it didn't seem as though it would be beneficial to the Province of Manitoba . I think pertain ing to the potential of tourists that to our respective provinces in the west there would be a benefit to get together and work more cl osely togethe r. MR. CHAffiMAN: 109( b)(1) --pass; (b)

(2) Other Expenditures- -pass; (

c) Research and Planning, Salaries, $202, 200 . The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, under (

c) I wonder if the Minister can give us some indication of the utilization of the various parks in the province, the patterns of the total of them all . The other thing I'm wondering, in Research and Planning, the one that comes to my mind that is the vandalism that 's appearing on the scene in the last year, especially in our parks. I'm wondering if the Minister maybe has done some research and planning and maybe there are some ways and means that this evil habit can be combated and maybe not . It's a very difficult one .

Most of them seem to operate late and in conditions where you can't seem to do much about it . The other one, I'm wondering now, the fee structure that the Minister mentioned there, will the fees now pretty well carry the full load ? I was going through some figures and fees the othe r day and I believe last year it looks like, with the increase now, the revenue from the Parks System will be quite a substantial increase from a year ago . I wonder can the Minister give us some information on that ?

And the othe r, has the Minister had any experience of conflict in campgrounds between trailers being too close or have had some complaints of that nature ? The othe r was the problem now of the Member for Rock Lake, the Spruce Woods Park, where it 's under a flood . Maybe the Minister could give us some ideas of what intent he has to deal with that problem . I also believe there are some studies that are

3716 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) ••••• being done with the future deve lopment of the Winnipeg Beach area and I believe St. Malo and I also believe the Duck Mountain Provincial Park. Maybe the Minister could give us some of the insight into what he has found in those points . MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I' m really in your hands but a lot of the questions posed by the Honourable Member for Roblin would be dealt with more effectively, I believe, under Parks. I can deal with them if you so authorize me . MR. McKENZIE: The reason I raise it, Mr. Chairman, is because most of these come up under the research

section of the Annual Report. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, possibly I could be less specific and talk about some of the problems that we now have in parks without being specific pertaining to usage and deve lopment plans that we could deal with later when we get to Parks. Vandalism is certainly a growing concern in the sense that we've had more vandalism last year and this year than ever before and I don't really know for what reason .

It seems to occur certainly before our Provincial Parks open where we have very few people on hand to protect the infrastructure that we may have within the given parks and we have this occurring equally a lot in our wayside parks. It's a problem that I believe society will have to deal with through the laws that we 've enacted in this province . I don't believe that it can be said that I would like to increase my staff to the extent that I' d have people year round in our Provincial Parks and wayside parks to attempt to protect the assets that we have there.

I think that people will have to just become more respon sible and if they are not they'll have to be prosecuted . That's one way to deal with it . I think that possibly an educational program could be put on to put the onus more on individuals. The honourable member's question pertaining to the percentage of fees that goes to pay the operating costs of parks, last year I believe was approximately 18 percent . The amount that we charge in fees covered about 18 percent of the costs of operating parks.

This year, even with the increase of approximately 10 percent on fees, that will not take an additional amount pertaining to the operating costs of parks so the taxpayers are subsidizing the maintenance of parks, leaving aside the capital expenditures of parks, which is quite great. The capital expenditure is not included in the fees charged, only, like I said, last year approximately 18 percent of the fees covered cost of parks.

Pertaining to conflicts between cottagers being too close to one another, that is often a problem that we can 't avoid especially in places like Falcon Lake where it was seen advisable to have that many campgrounds in a very small acreage . People seem to want to go there whether they 're close or not. It's a question of demand more than any thing else . I personally don't like to be that close to someone if I want to rest for a weekend but others don't seem to mind as long as they 're close to the lake and can walk over. But it's causing a lot of problems, especially in the overflow areas.

Last year we had to close some overflow areas, at least if not completely we've reduced the number of individuals in the overflow areas and that rectified part of the problem. Spruce Woods Provincial Park, I' ve asked a report from my officials.

The last report I got I believe was the day before yesterday and the only reason I didn't report to the member in the area is that they 're not at the stage yet where they can indicate to me what can be done pertaining to relocation of the buildings affected, those that were burned, flooded and so on, the time frame for reconstruction and where exactly in Spruce Woods Park. We may have to move from the area we were in because of recurring floods every second year or so. As soon as I do get that information I' ll make it available to members .

We can deal with further expenditures in areas like Winnipeg Beach, St . Malo and Duck Mountain and so on when we get to the Parks

section . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 109 (c)(1)- -pass; (c)

(2) Other Expenditures --pass; (c)(3) - the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr . Chairman, there's $100 ,000 allocated in the Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement . This year there's no funds at all. I wonder if the Minister would explain the reason for that. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I don 't have the details before me , 1975-76 to my

May 13, 1976 3717 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont 'd) ••••• knowledge was the last year that we

part icipated under that program and I'm informed here by Mr. Pozemick that the Federal Government have cut off the research funds un der this heading so that 's another reason why we haven't included anything in 19 76-77 . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Chairman, that leads to the next question . If there 's no appropriation required for this year, one wonders why the item was there in the firs t place unl ess it was just designed to provoke the very question that was asked and to elicit the response .that the Minister has just given.

It seems to me that when there is no appropriation asked for there is no necessity to have that particular item in there . I wonder if the Minister could explain just the reason why it 's there. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Ch airman, the only logical reason that I can see that it's there is because we're giving a comparison here of 19 75 -76 or at least I wanted to relate that to the House . The amount that was contained within the Estimate s last year because of a non-agreement in 19 76-77 is no longer contained.

It was ce rtainly a desire of the government to continue provisions under this agreement but it was not accepted . The agreement itself was mainly a long term plan by our department, our Tourism and Rec reation Branch under Northlands Agreem ent to design a develo pment plan for fut ure years which was cut back by the Federal Gove rnment . But the

section itself has to be dealt with because we 're talking about general administration . Even though we 're not seeking funds for the Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement we do have other programs that we have to go ahead with and make provisions for. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(3)--pass; (d)

(1) Administrative Services- -pass; (2) other Expenditures - the Honourable Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: I wonder, Mr . Chairman, if the Minister could give me a breakdown of that item, (d)

(1) Salaries . This is the staff that administers the total department is it ? MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this is the total general administration staff of the Department of Tourism, Rec reation and Cultural Affai rs . It's a provision to administer central accounting, budgetary and legal services for the department in accord ance with Cabinet's approved guidelines for these given areas . It includes salaries for 17 pe rmanent staff man years, director and financ ial co- ordinator and 15 accounting and support staff and 3. 26 term assistant staff man years .

There 's a total increase in this Appropriation of $28, 000 and that 's mainly due to the addition of an internal auditor, one permanent staff man year, to review the internal control procedures and the carry-out audits on a regular basis. That 's at a cost of $1 2, 200. The addition of support staff, 1. 26 term assistant staff, to optimize the turn-around time for supplying invoices, partic ularly during the summer season, and that 's $9, 500 . There 's a general salary increase, and annual increments $6, 300 for a total of $28, 000 .

There is equally included in here a general off ice cost for administrative func tions: printing, stationary, 29 .5. A total increase of 8. 8 is due to price increase; 2. 9 workload increase for supplies and telephone relating particularly to additional support staff . There 's 3, 100 and an additional cost for automobiles and travel relating to internal auditor position, 2, 800 . So the comparison here, if we take invoices processed, actually in 19 74-75 there w:;.s 34, 029; projected for 19 76-77 would be well over 40, 000 .

So it includes field operation, audits, gate, camp ground, concessions and so on pertaining to invoic e proce ss . MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)(1)--pass; (d)

(2) Other Expenditures- -pass; (

e) Personnel Management Services:

(1) Salaries - the Honourable Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: Mr . Chairman, under this item I wonder if the Minister could explain the responsibilities • Does this give us some idea of the staff turnover ? Is this the part of the depar tment that looks after the employment, the changes in the personnel ? MR. TOUPIN: First of all, Mr . Chairman, the objective of this branch would be a provision to maintain an efficient and effective personnel and payroll service to the department .

It includes salaries for five permanent staff man years: a director, adminis trative off icer and three support staff and three term assistant staff man years . There 's a total increase of $1 , 000 which is due to general salary increase and annual increments .

3718 May 13, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) •.••• It includes general off ice costs for the Personnal Manage ment fun ction; it includes as a major item printing and stationary supplie s, $28, 000 . There 's a total increase of $15, 100 whic h is due to price increases for computer proces sing, $7, 700 ; and printing $1 ,0 00 and an additional cost related to the first full year of operation of Personnel Management Services, $6, 400. The staff complement, if we take the total amount for the department itself and if we look at 1975-76 for the department 964 .4 6, and for 1976-77, 98 8. 10.

Now there 's a breakdown of that if the honourable member wants it, but it's provided in each section. MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)(1)--pass; (e)

(2) Other Expenditures --pas s; (

f) Translation Services, Salaries (1) - the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Yes, I'd like to ask the Minister, in Translation Services, this is translation I presume, other languages than English, I wonder if the Minister could give some explanation of that . MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I did make reference during my opening remarks pertaining to, I believe, it was 600, 000 words that were translated in 1975-76 . It's mainly translation from English to French, French to English, depending on where documents come from or where they 're destined to.

As an example , if the Department of Labour receives a document say from Quebec that is uniquely in French and would like to under stand it, they may have at least a

summary translated so that the Minister may understand what the rec ommendation of the report would be . There 's equally translation say from other languages than French and English. But I'd say the bulk of the translation would be in French and/or English. The volume in 1976-77 would be in excess of what we saw in 19 75-76 . But we're hoping that

section to break about even in the fiscal year we're now in because departments will be charged for the service, so much a word. The staff here is not large. We've got four full-time staff man years and they're having to contract out a lot of the work. We find it advisable to contract out instead of hiring more translators . That was a policy in 1975-76 and for this fiscal year there's no increase of staff. There 's only a slight increase in funds that will be recoverable. MR . EINARSON: Just to pursue this a little furth er. The Minister says that it 's contracted out.

Then are the contract costs included in these figures here ? I'm wonder ing, Mr. Chairman, has the Minister received any requests to use other languages than just Fren ch. I'm just wondering what languages, if any, that he has been requested to use. MR. TOUPIN: Well, as an example, I can only cite experiences that I've personally had. I could have the Director of the Translation Bureau here possibly when we 're next on the floor . I've had experienc es to have say Russian translated, Polish, Ukrainian, Icelandic, personally, letters that I've received that I did not understand.

There is at least one person there that speaks and writes fluen tly, I believe, five or six languagesp a very capable woman and doing a very fine job. MR . EINARSON: Then to pursue this one step furthe r, Mr . Chairman, does the Minister anticipate a greater increase in costs insofar as the French language is concerned, to have to translate? I pose this question, Mr. Chairman, because it's sort of national in scope .

We've had a lot of comments in the press over the past year as to how much money we're spending on a language that's supp osed to be off icial but really it 's not off icial in Manitoba or any other province other than the Province of Quebec. That's why I pose this question, Mr. Chairman. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to get into an argument pertaining to languages . French and English are the off icial languages of Canada; it's not the two off icial languages of Manitoba. What I'm saying is that yes, we do provide whenever possible, the translation of other languages .

Pertaining to Additional Costs, you'll notice that the Additional Cost sought here for this fiscal year is very slight . It's not earmarked to provide for a great increase pertaining to translation and certainly not an increase in staff . It's only a slight increase because of additional costs pertaining to materials and increments pertaining to those staff that we had in the last fi scal year . I don't fore see an additional cost pertaining to either languages whether it be French and/or English, or

May 13, 1976 3719 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPrn cont'd) • • • • • other languages in 1976-77 . But I do see it as a worth while service for departments of government and for agencies of government pertaining to a better understanding of what's happening in other provinces and other countries of the world. MR. CHAmMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENS ON: Mr . Chairman, do I understand the Minister correctly to say that he does the translation for all the other departments of government?

I'm not sure whether I clearly understood him when he said that this work is contracted out and then a little later he mentioned that there was one person in the staff that spoke several languages. Now how much of a staff do they have in this translation department, and what part of the work is contracted out ? MR. TOUPlli": Again, Mr . Chairman, having only four full-time staff man years there and not all translators, I believe there is only two qualified translators, so they do all they can pertaining to translation of documents. Then they have it typed by a typist that they have there .

Then they have a clerical person. Whatever they can't do because of lack of time they contract out and charge the respective departments. MR. JORGENSO N: ..• there is a considerable volume of work that has to be done in translation, if two people can't keep up with it. It would appear to me that a great deal of correspondence comes into the department in other languages, other than English . MR. TOUPlli": Mr. Chairman, I indicated a while ago that last year approximately 60 0, 000 words were translated, so that's a lot of translation.

And the work of a trans lator - I speak French and English, and I write French and English, but I'm far from being a translator - it's very difficult to be able to understand what you're reading and translate it into another language, it's a specialty, and it's hard to find good translators. As an example here, we can talk about the output for 1975-76 . General translation words output, 396, 000, which was 60 percent of the work of t

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-111
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 111.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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