LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 18 March, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commit tees . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave to make a non-political, non- partisan statement at this time, please. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Minister have leave? (Agreed) HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that all th e members of this Ho use want to join me in congratulating the Urse! rink who won the Canadian Championship over the weekend, especially the way they did it. They continued the good work that they had started last year by winnin g the Canadian Championship. Of course, we all know that the rink was composed of Skip, Bobby Urse!; Third, Brent Mendella; Second, Gerald Chick; and Mike Urse!, the other brother at lead; and that the rink was coached by the father of two of the boys, Mr. Tim Urse!, who is also well-known in the curling circles. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon our able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, we, on this side, wish to add our words of congratulations and support to the Urse! rink for their winning the In terna tional Championship in curling. We certainly are pleased with this continuing show of strength for Manitoba curlers on a worldwide basis. We're delighted with the results and we're pleased that this is another topic for potential inclusion in next year's Throne Speech. MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, I have a Ministerial Statement, Mr. Speaker. As you know, Manitoba has long been a leader in this country in the use of computers in our schools. Last year, I had the pleasure of announcing an innovative program sponsored by the Manitoba Jobs Fund which would con tinu e and extend th at leaders hip. The information technology program, lnfoTech, is designed to improve the utilization of computers in the classroom. Through Canada's first joint Ind ustry-Government Computer Resource Centre for schools, we will be 177 helping teachers to upgrade their skills.

This, in turn, will help to ensure that Manitoba school children will have better opportunities with computers and to be prepared for the technologies of the future. We will also be helping school districts and school di visions to make and form decisions when they purchase computers and their related software and courseware; and through lnfoTech they'd be able to take advantage of volume purchase discounts; and we will be nurturing the development of a courseware development industry in Manitoba, an industry which will have worldwide markets. Mr.

Speaker, IBM Canada became the first major computer manufacturer to join with us in this venture. They were followed by Burroughs of Canada and then by Apple. Today, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that another major company - this time one with a long history in Manitoba - has become the fourth participant in lnfoTech. This morning the general manager of Sperry Canada - a company which employs some 300 Manitobans in its Winnipeg operations - and I signed a three-year agreement to work together in this unique and ambitious undertaking.

Sperry Canada will invest more than three-quarters of a million dollars in equipment and personnel over the length of the agreement. The company has studied our program, has conducted research into the needs of Manitoba schools and has developed a strong program which will be an important contributor to the success of the lnfoTech Centre. A unique feature of their contribution, Mr. Speaker, will be the provision of a mobile demonstration van which will take the message of lnfoTech and of Sperry Canada to schools and businesses throughout the province.

This mobile unit will provide access for students, teachers, farmers and business people for "hand-on" training in computers. Sperry will be actively supporting the development of computer software in three areas, schools, school divisions and in business education instruction. As Mr. Hal Fischer, the general manager, said today, "This agre ement is consistent with Sperry's commitment to provide state of the art computer technology and education for people in Manitoba." I welcome that commitment on the part of Sperry and welcome their commitment to the Manitoba lnfoTech Program. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the Minister's statement and say to him how pleased I am that Sperry have decided to participate with the Provincial Government in this venture. I might say that the Minister leaves out a fair amount of description of Sperry Un ivac. I don't mind giving him some more information on it as it happens to be a company that is within my constituency.

Monday, 18 March, 19 85 Sperry has not just started to be a contributor to working with the Provincial Government in Manitoba; they have been a very fine corporation and a corporate citizen since they came to Manitoba several years ago and expanded their factory since they came about three years ago from this date. So, Mr. Speaker, I would say that I compliment Sperry for working with the Province of Manitoba in this regard.

I can assure the Minister that my knowledge of the company is such that they will work with him with full co-operat ion in his endeavours, and I would also say that I am pleased that Manitoba companies, with factories in Manitoba, are participating in this particular venture. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in tabling the Annual Report of Manitoba Communi ty Services for the year ending December 31, 19 84. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R.

PENNER introduced Bill No. 6,

An Act to amend The Consumer Protection Act. HON. B. URUSKI introduced Bill No. 7,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act. HON. L. DESJARDINS introduced Bill No. 8, The Ambula nce Servic es Act;

Loi sur les services d'ambulance. HON. J. COWAN introduced Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Co-operatives Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where there are 40 students of Grades 8 and 9 standing from the Alf Cuthber School under the direction of Mr. Koch. This school is in the cons titu enc y of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. There are 15 students of Grade 3 standing from the Robertson School under the direction of Mrs. Snifeld. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Burrows. On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Education - polling expenses MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premie r. It follows on a news report of ye: 178 another series of polling being done by the government, this one on topics related to education. My question for the Premier is, how much will the government be spending on polling this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't have that information.

Obviously there is market research that is taking place on the part of this government as well as other governments in Canada, both provincially and federally, to ascertain the views of Manitobans in relationship to particular subjects. Advertising - government spending MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that ju st a shor t while ago it was revealed that the government plans to spend $4. 7 million on direct advertising, another $3.7 million on additional staff in the area of im age buildi ng, public rela tio ns and advertising, how much is the government spending for this current fiscal year, the year that has already been comm itted on polling? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, that might be a matter that could better be dealt with during the Estimates Review. Future polling topics MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, may I ask the Premier then, in view of the fact that it appears from the Throne Speech that some of the initiatives that have been put forward in legislation with respect to wife abuse, child abuse and other initiatives were undertaken after polling was done on that particular topic, and in view of the fact that a decision with respect to the construction of Limestone was made after some extensive polling, what other topic will the government be polling on with respect to its future plans? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the statements from the Leader of the Opposition are not true.

They're not based upon appropriate research. In fact, the decision to proceed with Limestone was made prior to the last election in 19 81 when we indicated as a party in seeking a mandate from the people of Manitoba that we supported the orderly development of Limestone, and we would proceed with the orderly development of MANDAN during our term in office. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, decisions wi"·· respect to the spouse abuse program, child abuse p; "'rnm, certainly did not follow on the heels of a pollin: .n the Province of Manitoba. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm interested to find out that the decision on Limestone was made four years ago without any knowledge of markets or anything else that the government might need to have in order to develop that generating station. My question then to the Premier is, in view of the fact that the public has paid for this polling, will he table the information in the House so that all Manitobans can know what evidence and what information the government is getting that to its decisions?

Monday, 18 March, 1985 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly accept that suggestion as one that is worthy, I believe, of conside ration on the part of the government. Mr . Sp eak er, ag ain, I' d like to refer to the misconception that the leader has in regard to Hydro. The decision in respect to Hydro development was not only part of the mandate that this government received in 19 81, but was a result as well of a very clear and very direct decision by the Board of Manitoba Hydro based upon recommendations of management to the Board of Manitoba Hydro in August of 1984. So, Mr.

Speake r, I don't know from where the honourable member would have information that was based upon polling, unless it was from thin air that he arrived at the erroneous impression. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, is the Premier then denying that any polling was done by any department of go vernment, or Manitoba Hydro, or the New Democratic Party on th e topic of Limestone development? Is he denying that? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, let us be very very clear.

The Leader of the Opposition posed a question that the decision to proceed with Limestone was based upon polling, polling that had been done in respect to whether or not Manitobans supported the resumption of Limestone. I, again, disabuse the Leader of the Opposition with any impression the Leader of the Opposition might have that our definitive decision to include Limestone as a major portion of our campaign commitment in 1981 had anything to do with polling, and also to disabuse the Leader of the Opposition that the decision that was made by Hydro management, Hydro Board, had anything to do with polling. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, a very simple question. Is the Premier denying that any polling was done by the New Democratic Party, or the Government of Manitoba, or Manitoba Hydro, on the topic of the development of Limestone Generating Station? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, but that's not as important as the first question the Honourable Leader of the Opposition raised with me. MR. G. FILMON: I'm pleased now, Mr. Speaker, to get the answer that indeed they were polling, and they did do that polling before they made the decision. Mr. Speaker ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. H. PAWLEY: A point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I did not, and again I have said several times already during this question period, we did not poll prior to the decision to proceed with Limestone. Let that be very very clear on the part of the Leader of the Opposition. 179 MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, that's news, because my understanding is that the decision wasn't finally made ... MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: . . . that it was based on the National Energy Board decision. Manitoba Film Classification Board - home-use videos MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I have another question to the Premier, and it has to do with the information that was tabled in the House on Friday. In view of the fact that the government has indicated that they are prepared to institute a system of screening for home video cassettes to ensure that pornographic material and material that's not in keeping with the moral standards of this province is reviewed by an objective body before it's allowed to be seen by the public, will he institute the same sort of screening procedure before material is allowed to go into the public schools of this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it is indeed the policy, as I understand it, of the Department of Education to ensure that the local school divisions and the librarians of those local school divisions screen, review material that is submitted to them for distribution within the school division. I assume tha t the Leader of the Opposition is not suggesting that he lacks confidence, Mr. Speaker, in the prudence and the good judgment of the school division officials including the libraries of the various school divisions in the Province of Manitoba. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Pornographic literature in schools MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I lack confidence in the prudence and good judgment of this government who let that material get in there in the first place. Mr. Speak er, in view of the fact th at the scre ening procedures in place did not prevent this material, this unacceptable pornographic material, from getting into the public schools of this province funded partially by his government, will he undertake to provide a proper screening mechanism so it won't happen again in future? · HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, just one brief comment and then the Minister of Education will deal with the details of the question. Mr. Speaker, the very fact that the material that was submitted on Friday was rejected by a librarian in the school division in which the material had been submitted to indicates, indeed, that there is good judgment on the part of the librarians in the Province of Manitoba, good judgment on the part of the school division officials in the Province of Manitoba. Unlike the Leader of the Opposition again, Mr. Speaker, I have confidence . . .

Monday, 18 March, 1985 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . in the school division librarians. I have confidence in the officials of the school divisions in the Province of Manitoba to use reasonable judgment in such cases. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am quite pleased to be able to report to the House the steps and action that I have taken since this matter was brought to our attention. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, just so that we don't get ourselves into any difficulty, I just want to indicate to you, the Opposition is quite prepared to revert to Ministerial Statements. Indeed we might have expected one, but if the Minister is now standing up at the request of her Premier to make a Ministerial Statement, then I reserve the right for our education critic to respond in same. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health to the same point. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last there was a question asked in this House.

One of the Ministers wasn't present at this time; I took it as notice. The Minister of Education knew nothing about it until it was brought to the attention by the Member for Morris, and now all she is doing is just trying to answer the question that was asked before; it's a continuation of last Friday. I certainly see nothing wrong with that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the Minister intends to answer a question which was taken as notice, then it would be in order. It would not be in order to make a Ministerial Statement at this time. The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I have no intention of making a Ministerial Statement. I do have an intention of answering a serious question that was raised in this House on Friday that I took as notice and I would like the opportunity to do so. Mr. Speaker, it was a serious question that was raised and it's one that concerns all of us, and I want this House to know that within one hour of receiving the information in this Chamber that I took very swift and very strong action.

I instru cted my department immediately that they were to make contact with school divisions and inform them that was there any chance that this material had been ordered and received and put on the shelf in their libraries that it was to be removed immediately. I was very clear that this material is unacceptable and is inappropria te and we will not tolerate material like that in our school at any level, at any grade, 180 any group of children. Mr. Speaker, it's also clear that the procedure is working well.

I remind the members opposite that in 1979 it was the decision of the former Conservative Government to have the Department of Education stop reviewing periodicals, and they gave the responsibility to the school divisions and the librarians and the teachers, where it belongs, Mr. Speaker. The procedure is working well because when the teacher, when the librarian, saw the material, it often happens that they order material that they think is okay and when they review it they find it is inappropriate.

It is their job to make sure it does not get on the shelves of the schools; and they carry that out well, as I believe will all other librarians in the province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I must say that I'm shocked that the government shows not to make a public statement at the beginning, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister had a chance, particularly in light of the . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. C. MANNESS: . . . the events of last Friday. Mr. Speaker, just to review, as a

preamble to my question, Sir . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, in light of Friday's revelation that the government, first of all, paid for the production of so-called culture that is pornographic in nature; secondly, has recommended the material for use in school libraries; and thirdly, supported by grant its distribution throughout the school system; in light of those facts, how does the Minister of Education on a CJOB interview last Friday have the gall to shift the blame from the government to the school boards for the presence of these particular materials within our schools? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is argumentative.

Would the Honourable Member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? The Honourable Member !or Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister said and I quote: "I find it hard to believe U anybody could use that material and believe that ·was appropria te for any grade, in any school, at any level. It is clearly unacceptable . . . " R. PENNER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. HON. FI.

PENNER: The members should well krow by now that it is out of order to quote any kind of a media announcement, or thing of that kind, in the House and for a Minister to cowrient on it.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: If the Honourable Member for Morris has a question, would he please pose it? MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry. If you made a ruling, I didn't hear it. But, Mr. Speaker, I am quoting specifically what the Minister said on that interview. I would ask her if it is clearly unacceptable, how is it that her department recommended this material as indicated by the letter I gave to her? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated before that the Department of Education has made a conscious decision not to review periodicals since 1979. This procedure is clearly understood by the school divisions, and the responsibility for reviewing the hundreds and maybe even thousands of newsletters, magazines and periodicals is up to the teachers and the librarians in the school. The Department of Education did not recomm end, the Department of Education did not review, approve or recommend those periodicals for the schools. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask the Minister or any Minister, was the material recommended or not? I have a letter in front of me, signed from the Department of Culture. It says that, "Each book title and cultural periodical has been assigned recommended grade levels by the Manitoba Department of Education." Was the material recommended or not? Where is the truth in the matter, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will respond to the question, and also take the opportunity to respond to the other questions that the member raised that were taken as notice by some of my colleagues last Friday. First of all, I regret that the letter the member made reference to could be interpreted as an endorsation of the material by the Department of Education or by the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. The purpose of the program that is being debated, Mr.

Speaker, is to allow school divisions to make a choice of publications, either books published by Man itoba publishers or periodicals, from a list of Man itoba-published books and periodicals. There was not to be any reference made that these were endorsed by the Department of Culture nor by the Department of Education. I regret, and I apologize if there was any inference from that letter to that, and will certainly ensure that the school divisions are made aware that we are not recommending those publications for use in the schools.

Rather, it's up to them to decide whether or not they would like to use that and if they do, then they will receive support under the Public Periodicals Support Progr am. I should also inform the member, Mr. Speaker, that Midcontinental, the publication in question, has written to me and has voluntarily removed itself from the school program. 181 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Sp eaker, the Mi nister mentioned "interpretation".

How does he interpret an offer of money from his department for the schools to buy that literature if he doesn't interpret it as your approving it by giving them money to buy it? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The quest ion is argumentative. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister how people are to interpret the fact they are offered money from his department to buy those pieces of periodicals. Mr. Speaker, the report of the Manitoba Arts Council - (I nterjection) - okay, I'v e got another question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister.

The report of the Manitoba Arts Council is for 1983- 84, where it shows support for the Midcontinental of $4,000.00. Was that periodical given any money from April 1, 19 84 to this date? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That same question was asked by the Member for Morris last Friday, and I had intended to provide him with that information. The Manitoba Arts Council, as you, Mr.

Speaker, and members are aware, is an arms' length agency that is charged by legislation with respect to the development of culture in the Province of Manitoba, and receives part of its revenues from the Government of Manitoba and part from lottery revenues, and operates as an arms' length agency in the same way as the Canada Council and the Ontario Arts Council. The publication did receive funding in the 1984-85 fiscal year of $4,500 from the Manitoba Arts Council. There was also a question with respect to Herizons Magazine asked by the Member for Morris.

They did not receive any funding in that same fiscal year, 1984- 85, from the Manitoba Arts Council. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is going to be very clear. When is this Minister - the letter that was sent out comes from his department - when is this Minister going to stand up and ensure this House that taxpayers' money will not be supplied through his department or any other department to the spreading of smut in this province? I wish the Minister would tell us what he has done to assure that those tax payers' dollars will not be spent to support those periodicals. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Order please. The question makes representation. Would the honourable member wish to rephr ase his question to seek information? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I can't make it any clearer. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make very clear the fact that the inference in the letter that went out to the school divisions, or the fact that it could be interpreted as an endorsation of

Monday, 18 March, 1985 those specific publications was not intended. If that was the way it was interpreted, I regret that, and apologize for the fact that the letter wasn't worded in such a fashion to indicate that the decision on the use of any material is up to the school division. I also indicated that the publication in question has removed itself from the school program, so they have made that determination, I presume, based on the questions that have surrounded their inclusion under the program. I think we should also be clear, Mr.

Speaker, that we are not in the position of censoring material in this province or indeed in this country. There has been something that has developed in terms of culture and in terms of freedom of speech in this country that allows for the publication of cultural periodicals . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. E. KOSTYRA: ... any publication at any time cou ld contain material tha t is offe nsive to some individuals. In fact, some of the greatest literature in our lifetime, Mr. Speaker, has contained material that may be offensive to some.

It is certainly the decision of the person that is reading or purchasing that to be aware of that. If there is any concern with respect to whether or not that material is offensive in terms of the Criminal Code as it relates to pornograp hy, there is clear action that can be taken under that act. I repeat that our intention was not to suggest that the material was endorsed for use in the schools. (I nterjection) - that's what we did.

If that is what has been interpreted by some, we apologize for that fact, but we do not apologize for the fact that we are attem pting to provide the opportunity for school divisions, if they so choose, to use more Manitoba books, Manitoba periodicals in their schools. In fact, outside of this one situation, the program has been endorsed and we have received many letters of compliment to the fact that they can use Manitoba materials in the schools under this program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs, and ask him if he thinks that any other impression could possibly be garnered from an official government letter which provides funding, provides instructions, provides an order booklet, provides a list of the material. says that it is recommended by the Department of Education and thanks you in advance for supporting Manitoba "culture." Does the Minister suggest that it is creating a false impression, that that isn't clear in black and white? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The question seeks an opinion and is argumentative and makes an argument. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? MR. R. DOERN: I ask the Minister how any other impression could be garnered but that two departments of government recommend the material? 182 MR. SPEAKER: The question is still argumentative. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'll try another question. Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Education, who has been running for cover since Friday morning last, is she telling this House, is she prepared to stand in her place and say to this Legislature, as she did to the media, that she is not acquainted, or unfamiliar, with the magazine "Herizon"? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I find it strange that the member opposite should be predetermining what my personal reading material is. I am not familiar with the magazine and have not seen it. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, I did not hear the very end.

Did she say she was unfamiliar with that magazine? A MEMBER: Yes, she did. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Cultural Affairs whether he is familiar with this magazine which has been around for a couple of years, which is supported in advertising by the Manitoba Arts Council, the Department of Labour, and the Jobs Fund. I want to know whether this magazine which promotes foul language, which promotes militant feminism, which promotes the lesbian position, and I want to know whether he is familiar with this magazine which he has funded and he has promoted in the schools of this province. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I am, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would then like to ask a question of the Minister of Education who was lecturing and thinking out loud over the weekend, and saying to school divisions that they should be vigilant and that they should review their procedures. Given that's the advice ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind the honourable member that the purpose of Oral Questions is to seek information and not to give it to the House. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Speaker, given that the Minister of Education has said in recent days, the last few days, that school divisions should be vigilant and review offensive materials and review their procedures, I wonder whether she offered that same advice to her colleague, the Minister of Cultural Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is argumentative. I would refer the honourable member

Monday, 18 March, 19 85 to a list of appropriate questions, a form of questions which I sent around to all members fairly recently. It would probably help all members to review the guidelines contained therein. Petrocan - bulk sales in Manitoba MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Co­ operative Development . HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On Friday last, the Member for Roblin-Russell asked me a question regarding Petrocan activities and possible Petrocan purc hase of gas co-ops in the province.

I can report to him now that we are aware that Petrocan approached one or more gasoline co-ops in Saskatchewan this January regarding a number of alternatives for their participation in the business of that co-operative ranging from purchasing all the co­ op's assets to supplying fuel to the co-operative and a range in between the two.

Since that time there have been discussions at many levels and I am pleased to inform the Member for Roblin-Russell that just this last weekend, Petrocan announced that it would not be pursuing that marketing strategy in respect to the co-operatives, and that they would not be making any more such offers to the co­ operative gasoline sector.

We are pleased to hear that because we believe that the co-op sector is truly independent, provides a service to their communities, and we would like to see many more co-operatives supplying gasoline to communities th roughout this province and throughout Western Canada; and are pleased that Petrocan has stated that they will not be pursuing that marketing strategy. Flyer Industries - sale of MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister responsible for Flyer Ind ustries and woulrl ask the Minister if he could inform the House as t'J whether or not the government has now officiially put the tax-owner paid and subsidized company, Flyer Industries, up for sale, and that the government is now waiting bids for that company? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As has been ind icated in the past, the government has recognized that there are serious problems with respect to Flyer Ind ustries, and is pursuing a number of activities with respect to ensuring that we come to grips with the problems facing Flyer and the taxpayers and the government of this province. One of the options that is being pursued is the possibility of investiture or sale of Flyer Ind ustries, and the government, through the Manitoba Development Corporation and the Flyer Board, is pursuing a number of options in that regard. MR. R.

BANMAN: Is the Minister telling us that the government is now officially seeking bids from different 183 companies with regard to the divesting themselves of Flyer Industries? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe I have indicated that the province is entertaining discussions and - using his term "bids" with respect to Flyer and have received a number of inquiries. We are involved in a number of discussions and, in some case, negotiations with respect to Flyer Ind ustries. MR. R.

BANMAN: I would ask the Minister, since Flyer lost in excess of $12 million last year, would he be able to tell the House whether or not the government or Flyer Industries has done a projection as to the amount of money that Flyer is projected to lose, let's say, in the next five years? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The corporation obviously has done budget planning in terms of its current operations and for the near future.

In terms of asking specifically if there has been projections done for a five-year period, I can't respond to that and I would be pleased to provide that information at the usual time in terms of when we go thr ough the actual report of th e Man itoba Development Corporation with respect to Flyer. Acid rain - negotiations regarding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of the Environment.

Was the Minister of the Environment consulted by the Government of Canada at all during the negotiations with the Un ited States toward the new pact on acid rain? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The most recent discussions with the counterpart in Ottawa took place at the beginning of the month of February when anno uncements were made of funding toward future abatement policies. MR. D.

SCOTT: From the limited information that we have on that pact that was signed this past weekend between Pr esident Reagan and Prime Min ister Mulroney, can the Minister of the Environment see any improvement in the conditions on acid rain in Canada or in northwestern United States? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question seeks an opin ion . Wo uld the honour able member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? MR. D. SCOTT: Well, Mr.

Speaker, then, is there any evidence in the hands of the Minister that another study involving Premier Davis and a negotiator appointed on behalf of the United States will result in any reductions in acid rain deposition in Canada? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I suppose it is safe to say that every Canadian, including the Prime Minister,

Monday, 18 March, 19 85 would have liked to be able to announce a greater step forward over the weekend. We will not despair that this will not achieve anything. Hopefully, Mr. Speaker, in the months ahead we will see further movement, and we will look forward to that type of movement in the meantime. Natural Marketing Council - Dairy quotas MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Has the Minister of Agriculture taken action to reverse the decision made by the Natural Marketing Council in which they are prohibiting the transfer of partial dairy quotas and dairy herds in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the Natural Products Marketing Council and the Dairy Board have been in discussions over the transfer of dairy quotas since July of 1984 when the Dairy Board filed its new quota order and its whole market ing policy with the government, which was passed I believe in the month of July, and part of that agreement or order was that there shall be no quota value established.

Subsequent to the filing of that order, the board decided to have quotas traded on the marketplace, which this administration does not support, and as I understand the member opposite, when he was in office when queried, did not support value for quotas, Mr. Speaker, so that the position taken by the council and the board are consistent with that order. However, it's been seven months since the original plan was filed, and the board has not come up with policies in which to deal with transfers other than sale of complete farms or dispersal of complete farm units or in-family transfers.

Those kinds of trans fers are not impeded by the council at all. What we are trying to get at is the problem of value for quota and the escalating costs which, Mr. Speaker, down the road can only impact on the cost that consumers would pay for the price of milk. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that for some four years under our administration the dairy industry and the consumers got along very well, and, by his own admission, the dairy policy has been in limbo and in shambles for the last seven months, will the Minister of Agriculture provide for the dairy farmers of this province and this Assembly what his dairy policy is? Is he going to ask the Natural Products Marketing Council to withdraw their order, or is he going lo develop a new policy that more reflects the wishes of the dairy farmers in this province? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that last year the honourable members were crying and were giving this ministry what one would call the proverbial gears about the cost of milk in this province. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member - (I nterjection) - well he knows that ... 184 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the question is more involved than the Honourable Member for Lakeside wishes to let on, Sir. The government policy, in terms of the sale of quotas, is that quotas should have no value. Mr.

Speaker, we have, Sir, worked with the marketing board and will continue to offer assistance to the Manitoba Milk Producers Marketing Board to come up with a policy which meets the objectives of their plan, which they filed with the government last July, that there shall be no value for quota. The Member for Arthur to get up in this House to say that he now supports the sale of quotas, Mr. Speaker, and that there be value in quotas is I believe a reversal of Conservative policy, and he should tell us whether he is reversing his position. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister wants to go to some extended answers, will the Minister of Agriculture call the agriculture committee and the dairy producers of this province so that they can have some input into what the best policies are for them as producers and not try to fudge the issue in the Legislature? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, there's no one that's trying to fudge the issue other than the Member for Arthur , who either wants to be malicious in his accusations or whether maybe he doesn't understand the situation. Mr.

Speaker, it's very clear, and my colleague, the new Minister of Agriculture from Ontario, just recently, as quoted in the Co-operator, indicated that the greatest impediment for producers entering the industry is the cost of quota in that province. The Province of Ontario does allow the producers to sell quota on the stock market basically, Mr. Speaker, and I want to be very clear that we will not allow quotas to be sold in this province, because the di rect implications on all consumers in this province are that the cost of milk may rise. We are now finally, Mr.

Speaker, being supported in our position by the new Minister of Agriculture in the Pr ovince of Ontario. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. HANSARD CORRECTION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a correction in Friday's Hansard. At the bottom of Page i 56, the comments attributed to the Honourable Mr.

Lecuyer, I made those comments as the Minister of Northern Affairs, and it should have read: " ... even though they may not fall within the latter due to geographic area, enterprises which receive Special ARDA grant assistance may also be considered . MR SPEAKER: The clarification is noted.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 NON-POLITIC AL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Brandon West. MR. H. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I would like permission of the House to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. H. CARROLL: I'd like to congratulate Brandon's Vincent Massey Vikings Varsity Girls Basketball team, who won the Manitoba Triple A championship on Saturday night.

I'd like to congratulate Coaches, Stew Farnell and Mike Hill; Managers, Lindy Choy and Sandra Dettrich; and the players, Cindy Gabor, Paula Gabor, Stefanie Labuick, Michele Andresen, Karen Lorimer, Lorna Braaksma, Judith Friesen, Lisa Mazur, Lynn Zemliak, and last, but not least, my darling daughter, Leslie Carroll. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I have a clarification for a question that was asked on Friday, March 1 5th, by the Honourable Member for St. Norb ert when he asked about our department holding up an application for a grant. Is that out of order?

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Is the honourable mem ber attempting to answer a qu estion? Oral Question period is over. HON. M. SMITH: I thought it was a time for clarification, Mr. Speaker. If not, I can wait for tomorr ow. MR. SPEAKER: If the member has a clarification or a correction of Hansard, now would be the appropria te time to do so. If it is an answer to a question that she has taken as notice, it is not appropria te to do so. The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: It is the clarification of a question asked and an expansion of the answer I gave; therefore, I need your help as to whether that's appropriate now or tomor row. MR. SPEAKER: I believe that would be mo re appropriate were it to arise tomor row. HON. M. SMITH: Thank you. HANSARD CORRECT IONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, on a matter that I believe is a privilege that I would like to have is that the Attorney-General on Frid ay - my colle ag ues informed me - was very excited about the statements I made in the House, and I have had the opportunity to peruse Hansard, his statements, and compare the 185 ones that I made on Tuesday the 12 th at 8 o'clock; and I would like to take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to say that the words "contract," I should have not used them, they are wrong. I have no reason to use that word in the context of this thing.

The comment in the Hansard where it came from: "A MEMB ER: How much did they pay her, Frank? How much did they pay her?" I said: "I am not getting into that." - quite frankly, I don't want to get into that - and the wording, "It's there, in Public Accounts ... " is wrong. I have the ability or I have the same opportunity to peruse Public Accounts as any other member, and as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be, it's there. I could have said, if somebody wants to look, fine; but I must offer the member my apologies for the wrong wording which he took exception to on Friday. MR.

SPEAKER: I thank the member for that personal explanation . The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: I would like to also point out a correction to Hansard, Mr. Speaker, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In Hansard, Thursday, March 14th at 8:00 p.m., on Page 138, about halfway down - it's in reply to the Throne Speech - I make mention of: "A special thank you to a Mr. Bud Udell." It is misspelled in Hansard and I would appreciate the correction being made; it's Mr. Bud Budel, B-u-d-e-1.

I would also like to apologize to the people who type Hansard for not enunciating more clearly, because it's not their fault, it was mine and I would like to have that correction noted. MR. SPEAKER: Duly noted. Anything else to come before the House prior to Orders of the Day? MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance.

I move: THAT under Rule 27, the ordinary Business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance; namely, that the Government of Manitoba has provided funds to a number of publications that contain material that is sexually explicit, obscene and offensive to most Manitobans and has attempted to introduce these materials into the public school system. Mr. Spea ker, the key question in this ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. R. DOERN: . . . seconded by the Member for Brandon West. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

According to our Rule 27, the honourable member has given me notice that

Monday, 18 March, 1985 he intended to raise this matter. The honourable member has five minutes to state why the matter is of urgent public importance. The honourable member should speak to importance of the urgency of the matter and not the matter itself. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, we know very well what the government will say. They'll say there's the Throne Speech, there's the Budget, there,s the Estimates. Stick around, wait around a few days or a few weeks. Mr.

Speaker, we have to debate this matter right now because right at this moment the government is continuing to fund and continuing to advertise in publications. I don't know how many months they have been funding and advertising in these publications. I don't know how many years they have been funding and advertising in these publications, but I have looked at these publications. Mr.

Speaker, I must say in passing that I find it very hard and difficult to accept the statement of the Minister of Education who says she's unfamiliar with this particular publication which has been around for a couple of years, which has so much money now that they can go national, they can go monthly, they can hire extra staff, as an advertisement in their latest issue suggests. Mr. Speaker, the government doesn't have money for Pharma care. No, it doesn 't have money for Medicare. It doesn't have money for chiropractors. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

The honourable member, according to our Rule 27 - (I nterjection) - Order please, order please. The honourable member has five minutes to explain the urgency of the matter and not the mat ter itself. Will the honourable member restrict his comments to the urgency of the matter? MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, these publications on the advice of the government, the government took an action. It sent out information, it solicited orders. As a result of that - and I'm talking urgency - as a result of a letter sent out by the Minister of Cultural Affairs, supported by the Department of Education, orders were taken.

Magazines have been sent out and distributed. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. I.. DESJARDINS: Again the member, Mr. Speaker, is not addressing the question of urgency, but he's debating the matter itself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood should restrict his remarks to the urgency of the matter. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I say that this is an urgent matter because as a result of government actions, por nographic and obscene material has been disseminated and distributed in the school system. Mr.

Speaker, at this very moment, there may be other pub lications of which we are not aware that the government is funding and promoting and I have raised one of those publications today, there may be others. 186 Mr. Speaker, we don't know what other magazines and books are being financed and I want to know, and I want to debate, and I want the government to tell us whether they're supporting certain groups in our society that are supporting views that are not shared by the vast bulk of Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, I want to debate because I do not have any respect for the judgment of the government in this matter.

They have demonstrated poor judgment. They are trying to wriggle out of a bad situation. Mr. Speaker, we are shortly going to get into associated topics. We are going to get into the question of the moral standards of our province, of the judgment of the government, of the cultural policies of this government. They have sent out a letter suggesting that magazines, which no self-respecting parent would have in their home, are cultural. That is their definition of cultural, Mr. Speaker, and we will very shortly also be debating the question of sex education.

So I want an opportunity, along with many other people in this Chamber and on this side of the Chamber - not on that side of the Chamber - to ask questions of the government and to get the government to withd raw this offensive ma terial that they have supported financially and have attempted to introduce into the school system. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health also has five minutes. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, of course, the Rules of the House would only permit me to discuss the question of urgency. I think the rules of Beauchesne are very clear.

The honourable member recognizes that himself, and I quote from Citation 285, "It must deal with a matter within the administrative competence of the Government and there must be no other reasonable opportunity for debate." Now, Mr. Speaker, first of all there was a comp lete discussion just a few minutes ago during the question period. There were statements made by two Ministers who said that the material was voluntarily removed, and there was also another statement by the Minister of Education yesterday also and she said she was certainly removing all support from those publications. The situation, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Throne Speech will continue also, tha t th e di scussion could be discussed. - (I nterjection) - If the honourable friend could just keep quiet a minute. He's free to get up after? Are you going to get up after? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. L DESJARDINS: All right. I will speak. The situation (I nterjection) - I'll come to that but I'm not able to discuss that. The situation, Mr. Speaker, is that we have the Throne Speech also that will continue immediately after this de bate. There's also the Estimates tha t will be introduced soon, the Budget, and also as I said the question period.

It's obvious, Mr. Speaker, that there will be other opportunities. Now, my honourable friend is trying to say that this statement wasn't made. The statement was made very clearly that in general there was a grant for some review and that was left to the

Monday, 18 March, 1985 di fferent school divisions to appr ove. That is the statement that the Minister made. I think we all know that we do not have censorship in this province, but classification. Ap parently the Minister also said that this was a system that was started by the former government when my honourable friends were sitting on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, I don't think there is any doubt at all. I don't like this any more than any members on the other side and I don't think there are any members on this side that do but the point is, Mr. Speaker, that the correction is done imm ed iately.

There will be investigation, as was said by both Ministers, and we'll have plenty of occasion to discuss it again. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr . Speaker, I would like to represent our party in speaking to the urgency of the debate as put forward by the motion. Mr. Speaker, I, too, and our party shares in the urgency that this matter should be debated. Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge the Minister's statement in the House today, the intent in her action, but however there is a broader issue. I think it's very urgent that we discuss and debate that issue very quickly. I sense, Mr.

Speaker, no real outrage by the Minister as to, first of all, a government process that would allow this to take place and, of course, their responsibilities, the Minis ter's responsibilities, however indirect. To me, this is most disturbing and I feel should be debated at this time. Mr. Speaker, as I said before, the Minister indicated in a CJOB interview that she thought it was up to the schools of the province. I consider this as a matter for urgent debate because I honestly believe that this is a matter of policy and one that has to be defended by the Minister in the form of debate. Mr.

Speaker, I listened to the Minister on CKY the other night. She indicated that this publication was an aberr ation, a one-at-a-time thing that this would occur. Mr. Speaker, we hear of another one just from the other mem ber. That has to be debated, and it has to be debated immedia tely, now. Mr. Speaker, the Minister has shown to me that she is not really that concerned. I think to try and convince her how concerned we are, we have to debate it in this House right now. Mr. Speaker, the Rules of the House indicate I must accept the Minister's statement of Friday and of today. The rules say that.

But there is a broader issue in this, and to me this is why we have to debate the matter. As the member indicated, in a short period of time we'll probably be discussing the whole area of family life and sex education. The Minister has indicated that her underlying philosophy through this whole discussion are the three Rs: respect, responsibility and reason. Mr. Speaker, somebody in her department with that same underlying philosophy believes that they can make a decision in the Minister's absence and say that the department has recommended it and send out the material. That is urgent, Mr.

Speaker, and has to be de bated right this moment. Mr. Speaker, what the main and even a greater broader issue, as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that 187 the Minister has totally betrayed the trust bestowed upon her by the parents of 195 ,000-plus students within this province. Mr. Speaker, as parents who send their children to school between the hours of nine to four under the trusteeship of that Minister, we have to know what is in the school. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. C. MANNESS: That is urgent. MR. H. ENNS: Our children are involved. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The honourable member should be speaking of the urgency of debate, not of the issue itself. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I am being inundated with calls on this matter. All Manitobans from a major cross-section of this province want this issue debated today. Mr. Speaker, we have no other opportunity within the next number of days to debate this issue, and so I call upon you that we be able to debate it such that the trust within the Ministry of Education be restored. SPE AKER'S RU LING MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

Beauchesne, in discussing this matter, says, in Citation 287: " 'Urgency' within this rule does not apply to the matter itself, but means 'urgency of debate', when the ordina ry opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and public interest demands that discussion takes place immediately." There are quite obviously numerous opportunities for members to discuss this matter. We are towards the end of a Throne Speech, and the Budget Speech is to commence a little later this week.

Also there will be, of course, the Estimates when members will have numerous opportunities for the debate they wish. The honourable member's motion is, therefore, not in order. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. FI. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , with regret, I feel compelled to challenge your ruling. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have support? Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? Those in favour, please say, aye; those opposed, please say, nay. In my opinion, the ayes have it, and I declare the motion carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the pro posed mo tion of the Honourable Member for Wolseley and the amendment thereto proposed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Minister of Agriculture has 22 minu tes remaining.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 HON. B. URUSK!: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . On Friday, as the House adjourned, I was attempting to point out to this House and to Manitobans the different approach that this government has taken in dealing with agricultural issues, in dealing with the farmers in general, unlike the way they dealt with agriculture and the issues in the farm economy when they were government and unlike the way that their colleagues in Ottawa are now dealing with problems in agriculture. Mr.

Speak er, we have consu lted and discuss ed virtually every major issue facing agriculture, every measure that this Legislature was going to put into place, and received the views of the farm commun ity, albeit on a number of issues there was not unanimity, and there were differences of opinion. Nevertheless, we took the approach that we would consult and we would have major discussions, Mr. Speaker. Let's just look at the record, Mr. Speaker. The area, one of the first measures that we brought in, Sir, we dealt with the area of farmlands legislation. Mr.

Speaker, we held meetings with the farm commun ity, the Premier and myself, throughout rural Manitoba, a number of meetings in which we held discussions with the farm community, in fact, constituents from Portage la Prairie in the vegetable industry, one of the areas, Sir, that felt the highest impact of increased land prices due to speculation by non-farming interests. Mr.

Speaker, one of their own party members, a member from Portage la Prairie who is well reputed in the vegetable industry - and I'm sure the Member for Portage knows of whom I speak - did get up in a public meeting in Portage la Prairie and said, and I paraphra se it, I may not be 100 percent correct, but he said: "We need this kind of legislation, but because it's an NDP Gov ernment bringing it in, we are somehow suspect that this legislation goes far beyond." Mr. Speaker, he agreed that the legislation was necessary. Mr.

Speaker, the Conservative administration in Saskatchewan did not abandon the former government's legislation, which is virtually identical to the one in Manitoba. So, Sir, we consulted with the farm community, and even the farm groups, Sir, that did not stand with us in terms of principle, they didn't want to go as far as we did, Sir, we worked with them in developing the regulations.

We brought them in and said we don't want to have any undue impediment on land transfers in the farm commun ity, Sir, and they helped us develop; they worked with us to develop the regulations that are running as smooth as they could be expected in the farm community dealing with farm lands. Mr. Speaker, the other major program, the beef program. We consulted, we set up a committee who went around the Province of Manitoba talking to the farm sector, and they virtually developed their own program in consultations with beef producers. Sir, it is their program. Mr.

Speaker, crop insurance; the major changes in crop insurance that have been implemented this year were, in fact, as a result of proposals and consultations that we had with the farm commun ity. We, in fact, went ahead and spoke to farmers and, Sir, I might say I'm very pleased.

I did have some misgivings that the changes that we are putting in may not be accepted as readily as they have, and I am very pleased to say that the crop insurance changes are well accepted by 188 the farm community, in fact, all crops, in the main are taking a higher level of coverage, farmers are taking the program very seriously and going for the program, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, this is the type of approach that we have had in Manitoba and this is the type of approach we are dealing with in the farm financing question, and prop osals to deal with the income questions in agriculture, by virtue of the meetings that we have been holding and the meetings that we intend to hold throughout Manitoba to discuss how we deal with the farm financing problems that Manitoba farmers are facing. Mr.

Speaker, we have gone out, we have discussed it; in fact, we have gone to the agriculture critic's home area, the Member for Arthur's home area, we had a meeting in Souris, Sir, with approxima tely 300 farmers who att ended the mee ting. Did we see ma ny Conservatives at these meetings? All but one, Sir, all but one Conservative attended th e mee ting, the Member for Minnedosa was the only member from the Conservative party who attended the meeting in Gladstone.

Sir, I was very pleased to see the Member for Minnedosa at those meetings but, sir , obviously, the members opposite are not very concerned about the farm fina ncial situation of Mani toba farmers, otherwise they would have attended these meetings and heard what farmers had to say; especially, sir, about the latest Federal Go ver nment policy and latest measures. They recognized, sir, that a province cannot do everything to solve the problems and the ills of agriculture, especially in the income side.

They also understand, Sir, that we have put more money into agriculture than any government in the history of this province with our stabilization programs, all the other programs that have been shored up. Mr. Speaker, at a time when it is necessary for governments to put in more to shore up the agricultural sector, what do we hear from members opposite? Absolutely nothing, Sir. In fact, every program that we brought in in the last three-and-a-half years was criticized and berated by members opposite - every program. Mr.

Speaker, they said we wouldn't find any farmers who would benefit by the Int erest Rate Relief Program. Mr. Speaker, most of those farmers are in the constituencies of the honourable members opposite, in the central and southwestern part of the province. Mr. Speaker, the Loan Guarantee Program; they said that no one would take up the Loan Guarantee Program. Let's remind the honourable members that they had a loan guarantee program when they were in office; no one took advantage of it. We had to change the Loan Guarantee Program and make it more meaningful to the farmers of this province.

What have we gotten in terms of the farm financial crisis from our national government? What kind of leader ship have we received from the national government in terms of the farm financing crisis? Mr. Speaker, what have we seen? We've seen a study on the financing of agricultural programs; by whom? Not one farmer on the program dealing with programs in the Department of Agriculture. In fact, Sir, the closest one I'm advised that has any relationship to agriculture is an agrologist from one of the major banks, Mr. Speaker.

They have been the greatest friends of the Canadian farmer, our financial institutions, and they

Monday, 18 March, 1985 are the ones who are going lo be telling the new Cons ervative Gove rnme nt how to deal with their agricultural programs, Sir. There hasn't been one farmer on that study team and apparently they have already made their recommend ations. But, Sir, what else is there?

A party that came into office federally, that created, Sir, I would say the greatest expectations that agriculture and farmers of this country have in fact wanted and desired, that there would be this change in government, this change in direction at the national level that would in fact say to the farmers of Canada, there is a new direction as it relates to farm policy in this country; there is new direction as to how we will deal with the farmers in this country. Mr . Sp eak er, the farmers have been dismally disappointed. They have been totally disappointed as to the actions of the government because, Mr.

Speaker, farmers were fed up. We agreed with them, that the former admin istration was insensitive to the needs of Western Canada and the needs of the farm population; but, Mr. Speaker, it appears that this group is even worse, Sir. We have a Minister of Finance who puts out a report that calls the farmers of this country fat cats. And you know the Member for Arthur, when he raised the question in the House, said that we should not be crit icizing the Min ister of Finance, we should be criticizing the bureaucrats. Mr.

Speaker, under whose name is this report printed, issued by the Honourable Michael Wilson, Minister of Finance? Mr. Speaker, who is running the show down there? Mr. Speaker, this report has set the relations between the farm community and our urban counterparts back a decade. They have done more harm to the farm population than anything that could have come out of Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, it appears, and I am pleased that the Honourable Member for Rhineland, who is a sugar beet farm er, raised the question of concern about the sugar beet industry in this province. Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad that he raised this concern but, in his remarks, Sir, he is putting forward a position that now all of a sudden in national, agricultural, stabilization programs dealing with sugar beets that somehow the province should get involved in financing a program. Mr. Speaker, that's the impression that he is leaving. If that's the case, it appears that our federal-provincial relations dealing with agricultural stabilization are going to be taking a new course in this country.

It will be a case it appears that the provinces will be called on to bail out the Federal Go vernment in agricultur al stabilization programs, as we have done in the past, Sir, in the cases of red meats stabilization where the pr ovi nces co uldn't go it alone and the Federal Government was reluctant. We now have the members opposite saying, now you should go ahead and bail out the Federal Government. Mr.

Speaker, the Alberta Government put in money previously to their canola industry and I venture to say, Sir , tha t they will likely not wait for the Federal Government and be prepared to put up money for the sugar beet industry - money. That's right, Mr. Speaker, that's what it will be, but let's just understand where this is heading. The Alberta Government is asking Ottawa for a new deal on oil, on more revenues from oil, Mr. Speaker. The Alberta Government has a $13 billion Heritage Fund, Mr. Speaker, they can deal with any problems. 189 What kind of message are we getting from members opposite?

Instead of backing up Manitoba farmers and the industry and calling for action that the Federal Government has taken over many years in terms of stabilization of agricultural products, they are saying now, bail out the industry and bail out the Federal Government by putting money up. That's the action that they are taking, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on a point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I just ask if the honourable member would permit questions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Sp eaker , the Ho nourable Member for Morris asked me the other day whether I would entertain questions, I said, no. If there will be time remaining, I will be pleased to answer all questions at the end of my remarks. Sir, there is a new trend appearing on federal­ provincial relations, Mr. Speaker, and we will continue to make sure that people know that the responsibility for agricultural stabilization, in most part, remains with our national government. The provinces have been called time and time again to bail them out because they weren't prepared to put their money where their mouth is, Mr.

Speaker, where their responsibility is. It appears that this will also be happening as the issues unfold dealing with the sugar industry. We have raised this matter. We raised this matter last November with the Minister of Agriculture when we were signing the drought agreement in Regina, Sir.

We have again raised this matter with them and, in fact, I did have meetings with the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board last Thursday when I was in Ottawa in an endeavour to find out what kind of decisions they're going to make, because there is a lot of concern in the farm community and there is a lot of concern about not knowing what will happen, how matters will unfold. There is a lot of uncertainty as to whether farmers will receive contracts, whether they will be able to plant their crops.

There is a major investment in the industry by the farm community in this province, and this uncertainty should not continue, Mr. Speake r. The Federal Government owes it to the farmers of this country to put in place a national sugar policy and a national stabilization plan that they, in fact, have paid out and carried forward and paid to other farmers. Mr. Speaker, the honourable members opposite in the last three-and-a-half years have basically not come up with one idea dealing with how to deal with the farm crisis in this province.

In fact, the Member for Arthur, the agricultural critic of the pa rty, basically when questioned by media as to what he would do, he said he'd consult with the bankers and farmers, Mr. Speaker, that's what he would do. Well, Mr. Speaker, there hasn't been one concrete proposal other than criticisms of every program that we've put into place. Mr. Speaker, the one exception,

Monday, 18 March, 1985 there was an informal suggestion, a proposal that was made by the Member for Morris about setting up an Ombudsman that he said he made to his federal counterparts. Mr. Speaker, that does certainly make some sense in terms of dealing with some of the farm problems, but it does not deal with the problems that farmers are in. Mr. Speaker, the honourable members opposite, we'd like to hear where they stand, whether or not they are, in fact, in the pockets of the financial institutions as the donations federally state because. Mr.

Speaker, the Conservative party and the Liberal party both have received hundreds of thousands of dollars of donations over the last number of years from the banks. How can they now go against the ones who pay the piper? They really can't, Mr. Speaker, they cannot go against - (I nterjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, one thing that the Conservative party might do to help some of the farmers in the Province of Manitoba is to return some of those monies that they receive from the financial institutions and give it to the farmers.

That's one of the policies that the Conservative party can undertake; they can give back some of those donations that they've received from the banks, and assist some of the farm community in terms of the problems that they're having. Mr. Speaker, we haven't heard a peep from the Conservative Party, Sir, about the federal cutbacks in agriculture. Last Novem ber, $8 million away from the department's budget, and what do we hear? Nothing. What we've heard from the Conservatives. saying, look people of Canada, we only got cut $8 million; the other cuts were far worse, we're doing just great in terms of our budget.

Mr. Speaker, this year there'll be another $60 million cut, but that cut will be made up of $33 million in terms of additional direct costs to the producers. I want the honourable members to know the seed producers will be one of the hardest-hit gr oups in this count ry. Manitoba's seed prod ucers will be one of the hardest hit; not by a few cents, Mr. Speaker, but by hundreds of percents of increase.

I want to give it, again, to the honourable members so they would know because we haven't heard anything from them; we haven't heard a thing as to what they intend to do and whether they're going to speak out, what kind of friends they are. Mr. Speaker, as I said, the seed producers will be the hardest hit. Sir, seed purity and germination tests, they were $9 to $28 for tests previously; they're going up from $50 to $15 0, Mr. Speaker. a 500 percent increase in terms of testing to producers. Mr. Speaker, the acreage inspection was 10 cents an acre previously; it is now going up to $1. 10 an acre. A MEMBER: When?

HON. B. URUSKI: April the 1s t - 1, 10 0 percent. Sir, seed grain, the tagging and grading and sealing, Mr. Speaker, 1.5 cents for a 25 kilogram bag; 22 cents for a 25 kilogram bag, 1,5 00 percent increase. Mr. Speaker, this isn't penny ante stuff; these are major cost increases. Wh at have we heard from 190 mem bers opposite? Absolutely nothing. Mr. Speaker, we had heard complaints about our problems in the dairy industry. What are we having here, Mr. Speaker? R.O.P., the dairy industry, from $9.90 per cow going up to $19 per cow, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in terms of the hog industry, going up from $65 per boar to $12 5 per boar. Mr. Speaker, they have followed the Wilson Report right down to a "T", that the farmers of this country are the fat cats; that they pay no taxes; and that they make huge profits from their investments. That's what was said in the report, Mr. Speaker, and don't let the mem bers opposite try to fool anyone that it was a reporter who misrepresented the facts. Mr. Speaker, it was not the reporter. Mr.

Speaker, the reporters read , and if I had the time, Sir, I in fact would read what the Co-operator has said about that report and what the implications of those details are about that report in the Co-operator editorial. Mr. Speaker, they are even now going to charge for meat grading. We have put the position forward time and time again that the benefits of the grading of meat benefits everyone in society, not only the producer. It benefits all the consumers vis-a-vis the quality of meat in this country. Mr.

Speaker, there will be a charge now levied; I am advised of 63 cents for every beef carcass, 25 cents for hog carcass and $1 .00 for every lamb carcass processed through the industry. These are the kinds of levies on the - Mr. Speaker, all these fees are being imposed at a time when we hear members opposite berating this government for not doing enough for agriculture. Mr. Speaker, we have said that we have put more money into agriculture than any govenment in its history and it isn't enough. We acknowledge that.

We have sent a message to Ottawa that it is time that they abandon their high interest rate policy th at was supported by the Conservative Government of this province. Mr. Speaker, we have said it's time to write down the debts of the farmers in the only way that many of the farm commun ities can be saved and bring in adequate legislation in which negotiations and debt rescheduling can be put into place to assist the farm community in this country. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At the outset, Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to point out that the Minister of Agriculture's speech is a good example as to why the agricultural community in this province is in the kind of situation that it is. I looked over the notes of his speech from Friday and heard the repetition of it today and thought we would hear some new initiatives. some of the directives that might come from the Throne Speech, but he is as bankrupt as is the farm industry, Mr. Speaker. I, in opening my speech today, Mr.

Speaker, would like to go through the normal congratulatory duties that mem bers find themselves in, in congratulating the new mem bers, of the new mem ber, the new Cabi net appointees. the new assistants to the Cham ber, and of course I pointed out how disappointed I am in the

Monday, 18 March, 1985 current Minister of Agriculture and the fact that the Premier did not see fit to shuffle him in the last Cabinet shuffle that took place. I guess probably because it wasn't - (Int erjection) - If the Member for Lac du Bonnet could only clean up one mess that was left by the Minister of Natural Resources and wasn't able to take over the job from the Minister of Agriculture. Howe ver, seeing that he is of the same left-wing ideology, I guess probably there wouldn't have been much improvement even in that kind of a shuffle. Mr.

Speaker. we are in a real farm crisis in this province and we have to deal with it, and we have to deal with it in a meaningful way because it isn't only financial but it has come to the point where many people are under extreme mental stress and are unable to cope with it. I will deal, Mr. Speaker, with that in more detail in a few minutes. But I, first of all, would like to point out a couple of other problems that I have with this current government and their incompetence and inability to deal in a statesmanlike way or in a way in which the people of Manitoba would be proud of their government.

I cannot help, Mr. Speaker. but put on the record the disappointment that I, and I am sure many of my colleagues in the western region of the province, had when we were not given the opportunity to meet with Her Majesty the Queen when she was in the western region of the province. The initial invitations came out in July that we would spend some time with her at the opening of which I thought was an extremely important event and that was the Dinsdale Park. But for some particular reason, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier and his Cabinet and whoever was organizing the tour saw fit not to apologize to the members of the Legislature, not to apologize to the Dinsdale family who were ready to have a great day bestowed upon them, and a great politician and a representative of the western region of the province. They ignored the Dinsdale family after having them all set up and prepared for the dedication of the Dinsdale Park, and what did they do, Mr. Speaker?

It would appear as if they played politics with the use of Her Majesty's time when she was here and took her to the Brandon University to open the Music Centre with the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but put that criticism on the record because it was not proper and it did hurt. It hurt deeply the people of western Manitoba who thought the Dinsdale Park should have been ded icated by Her Majesty, and this Minister, the First Minister and his Cabinet will not be forgiven for that action. Mr.

Speaker, there is another issue as far as the people of Manitoba are concerned, and dealing in a way which I think is to be deplored and is not in the best interests of Manitobans, and that is the carrying on that this government has taken place between the Province of Manitoba and the State of North Dakota. Mr. Speaker, we have seen the Minister of Natural Resources and his participation in the burning of the American flag - as well as the Deputy Prem ier. Mr. Speaker, we have seen the (I nterjection) - we have heard the comments . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Santos: The Minister of Labour has a point of order.

Please state your point of order. 191 MR. J. DOWNEY: Take my time down, Mr. Speaker. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker , I have heard honourable members, and I heard this honourable memb er jus t now, indi cating th at this Minis ter participated in the burning of an American flag. I would like the honourable member to withdraw that. He knows what the facts are, that I was there - I gave lull explanation in the House - I didn't know that that had occurred, and yet the honourable member continues to use that kind of thing. I want him to withdraw, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Arthur. Order please.

MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I will continue on to point out what the Minister of Mines and Energy stated in reply, Mr. Speaker, to the State Legislature MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Member for Arthur made a statement . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: The Minister was there when he burned it. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: . . . and it is objectionable. HON. A. MACKLING: The honourable member said th at the former Mi nis ter of Na tural Resources participated in a flag burning ceremony. That is not so.

There was full explanation given to this House, and for the honourable member to continue to distort what are the facts is a breach of my privileges in this House. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Will the Member for Arthur withdraw the statement if the statement is not true? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, subject to the perusal of Hansard, I will again state the intention of what I said, that the Minister of Natural Resources participated in an event where the American flag was burnt. Mr.

Speaker, if it's anything different than that, then I would in fact withdraw. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege. Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order - I regret. Mr. Speaker, I heard the Honourable Member for Arthur say that we all witnessed the Minister of Natural Resources participate in a flag burning. Mr. Speaker, that allegation was denied. We asked the honourable member to withdraw that statement because what he is now saying is not what he said in his remarks earlier. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Arthur.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I cleared that matter up before I sat down and before the Minister of Agriculture interrupted. If you, Mr. Speaker ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will the Member for Arthur state what he had said before? MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I said that the Minister of Natural Resources had participated in an event where the Amer ican flag was burnt. And, Mr. Speaker, if it is any different than that, then I will withdraw it. Mr.

Speaker, I will as well, before I was rudely interrupted by the Minister of Natural Resources, want to place on the record the kind of statements made by this government and the Minister of Mines and Energy, and I quote from a Globe and Mail article, Mr. Speaker, where the Minister of Mines and Energy, who wants to put a MAND AN powerline across the State of North Dakota, and wants to do trade in tourism and all those kinds of activities, here's what he said and I qu ote: "N orth Dako ta is being petty , childish, irrespons ible, ' Ma nitoba Ener gy Mi nister Wils on Parasiuk fumed." Mr.

Speaker, I find that deplorable coming from a Mi nister of the Cr own , saying that about their neighbours, neighbours who we have cherished and worked with and looked towards to do trade with over the past many years. Mr. Speaker, I would expect the Minister of Mines and Energy should have apologized for that statement. But even one worse, Mr.

Speaker, and I don't have it before me but I'm sure the mem bers of the NOP Party that went to their NOP Convention are aware of the resolution that the First Minister took to that particular conventio n, asking those people at an NOP Convention to condemn the people of North Dakota for disallowing the transporting of that powerline or the transferring of that line. Mr. Speaker, that's no place to take a resolution of that nature to a political convention. He was invited, Mr.

Speaker, to participate in an across-the-borders com mittee with Saskatchewan, North Dakota and Manitoba, and refused to do so, to discuss concerns of mutual concern, not to take it to a political convention to politicize it, because we do cherish and we do appreciate those good neighbours in North Dakota. Mr . Sp eaker , how can we continue to see a government who are prepared to carry on and show the kind of disrespect that they're showing for people that we expect to do business with?

I'll again relate to that a little further when I talk about some of the difficulties the farm commu nity are having, particularly when it comes to the exportation of hogs out of this country. Mr. Speaker, I find this government have embarrassed the people of Manitoba. They've embarrassed them in many ways, and I would hope they would either clean up their act or call an election so that the people of this province could put in office who they feel proud of. Mr. Speaker, I want to deal in a fairly major way today with the problems that the farm community are facing.

The Minister of Agriculture, I would have thought, would have given us some indication and some direction as to what future plans he has because, to date, it appears 192 as if all he has been trying to do is cover his own political ground and try to regain some support within the farm community. But, Mr.

Speaker, according to what is happening in his own riding, he is possibly too late, because the information that I have received is that there are six people running for the Progressive Conservative nomination in the Interlake riding, six people wanting to challenge the Minister of Agriculture, that ther e were in excess of 2, 000 Pr ogressive Conservative memberships sold in that riding. Mr. Speaker, how can the Minister of Agriculture go around espousing the kind of policies he's espousing in this province without the support of the Manitoba farm commu nity, let alone the support of his own home riding?

I would expect to have heard in this speech today his swan song because, Mr. Speaker, it looks like the Minister of Agriculture is on his last political legs as far as representing the Interlake is concerned. Mr. Speaker, we look forward to that day when he is finished in this Cham ber, because of the irreparable dama ge tha t he has done not only to the farm community, but to the total of this province, being a member of the kind of Cabinet that he is. Well, Mr. Speaker, what about the farm community and the farm crisis?

Let's just look back at some of the events and some of the work carried out by the Prog ressive Conservative Opposition over the past few years. I make reference to a study that was made available, and this was reported in the July 15 th Press of 19 82, Mr . Speaker, when the Pr og ressive Conservative Government had hired an independent person to review the difficulties that the farmers were having at that particular time. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we reminded the Minister - not only reminded him, we pleaded with him to do something about it. The figures at that particular time, Mr.

Speaker, pointed out that there were some 3,000 people who were having some extremely difficult times with their financing in farming. But you know what the Minister of Agriculture and his Department of Agriculture told the public and told the people of Manitoba? Oh, he said, the Conservative survey differs sharply from an estimate by the Manitoba Department of Agriculture. They said there were between 300 and 500 farmers in trouble, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that's the problem with the Minister of Agriculture. He listens, but he doesn't hear. That was in 1982, Mr. Speak er.

Some 3,0 00 farmers were identified as being in severe financial trouble, and what did he do about it, Mr. Speaker? What did he do about it? Yes, Mr. Speaker, he went on a bit of a campaign to try and again let the farm community know what he was trying to do, but in an effective way he did absolutely nothing. So we are - the spring of 1985 upon us, and a real crisis upon us in the farm community. How does he go about dealing with it? Well, Mr. Speaker, he said there was no reference made by the members of the opposition in this last while as to what some of the positive solutions were. Mr.

Speaker, we weren't given the opportunity, because this Legislative Assembly wasn't called. We didn't have the opportunity to have the agricu ltural com munity called or this Assembly called to deal with it. Mr. Speaker, we wanted to deal with it in the middle of winter before the farmers went to the field. Mr. Speaker, within two weeks time last year, farmers were

Monday, 18 March, 1985 going out to cultivate the land. They had their finances put together; they had their plans made. They have to have a little bit ol lead time, Mr. Speaker. It can't be done in the middle of March for the 1s t of April. That's the point we have to make with this Minister. If he had been dealing with it in the middle of Jan uary, Mr. Speaker, the middle of December, when he should have been, then we could have given him some ideas. But what is he trying to do? He's now trying to regain political credibility with the farm community.

He makes reference to a meeting that he had called of the national farm community. Who did he call, Mr. Speaker? He called the governments; he called the financial institutions; he called the credit union, the banks, to a meeting to be held on the 4th and 5th of February in Winnipeg. He says we won't ask the farmers, we don't need any farmers' representatives at that meeting. When did he announce it? He went to the two-day calf meeting in Winnipeg. He went to the meeting of a new farm organization that is working hard to try and represent the farm commu nity. He didn't even talk to them about it.

He didn't even talk about the proposal the day before, but he came in and had a big press conference in the building, warning national exposure for this great meeting, but he didn't even suggest to the farm com munity the day before that he was considering it. So much for his consultation with the farm com muni ty. So much political bafflegab, Mr . Speaker, so much of it. That's all it is, Mr. Speaker. He calls on Saskatchewan and Alberta and all the other provinces to introduce an eight-percent lending program. Saskatchewan already had an eight-percent lending program.

It wasn't for one year, it was for the lifetime of a farm loan for young people. That's what Saskatchewan had, and I'm sure that's why they didn't come. He makes reference to the fact that, Mr. Speaker, we had some great ability to stop this meeting from taking place. It was his own incompetence and his own ability to attract people, Mr. Speaker, because of the way in which he handled it. They had just had a meeting in November and had laid out a plan of strategy, but he thought he would upstage them, Mr. Speaker, and then run for sympathy within the farm community.

Well, you know, I can't put it any better than the Brandon Sun did in an editorial, and I have to quote this editorial because it states very plainly what we have for a Minister of Agriculture. "Manitoba's Minister of Agriculture has just put his reputation through the office shredder." This is February 2, 19 85. "With a great fanfare of publicity, Bill Uruski called a national conference of financiers and Agriculture Ministers, only to learn a week later that he need book only a small hall indeed. The solitary indi vid ual who accepted this invitation was from Newfoundland. "Undaunted, Mr.

Uruski launched a second publicity campaign, this time to announce he would present at the next Session of the Legislature a bill which would protect farmers from bailiffs and bankruptcies. For the second time in as many weeks he has had to sound the retreat, again for lack of support. "Surely by now, the point has been reached where Premier Pawley should intervene. It is necessary that he point out to his Cabinet colleague that Ministers who make themselves look silly usually do the same 193 for the admini stration they represent." End of editorial. That summed it up pretty well, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speak er, let us go a little bit fur ther. Hi s announcement in the Throne Speech of reducing the interest rates to 8 percent for one year was again somewhat misleading. Mr. Speaker, there are many farmers out there today that still could use the financing support of MACC, and what are they doing? They're going to the MACC offices asking for 8 percent loans, and they're getting the answer that; I'm sorry, it's the individuals who had loans for last year, they will get 8 percent money for one year. They're getting a few thousand dollar cheque, Mr. Speaker, as a political handout by this Minister.

As far as real and meaningful help for those people who are in financial difficulties, they're getting absolutely nothing; and why didn't this Minister of Agriculture stand and put in the Throne Speech that he was making changes to MACC like he announced today? Does he want to keep the ball rolling and keep some form of false hope out there? What is he doing with the money that we did, in fact, tell him he had, the $250 million? Is he going to make it available through MACC at 8 percent, 10 percent? Is that what his plans are?

Well it's time he let the people know because we are two weeks away from being in the fields and producing the next year's crop. Mr. Speaker, it is time this Minister quits flip-flopping and comes straight forward and tells the people of Manitoba the truth. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Agriculture, how many farm bankruptcies have taken place under the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation? How many foreclosures has he participated in with the MACC? Mr. Speaker, has he deterred, of has he deferred farm bankruptcies? Has he foreclosed on many farmers? And I want that answer, Mr. Speaker, in the near future.

Mr. Speaker, I have some other important issues I want to deal with, particularly dealing with the farm community. The main one is, of course, the mental strain that the farmers are going under, and I think there has to be a mechanism, there has to be some forum set up for those people to discuss and try and give them some kind of direction and to allow them to vent their concerns. He makes reference to the meeting that he had in Souris. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister conveniently called it for the same night that I had my colleague, the Member for Turtle Moun tain, speaking at my nomination meeting in Melita to run in the next election. How convenient, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister to pick such an evening. A MEMBER: And to say we weren't there. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. And I'm pleased there were 3,000 people there because, for four years now, we've been telling him the plight of the farmer in the western region. A MEMBER: Three hundred. MR. J. DOWN EY: Three hundred people at his meeting. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased there were 300 people there, and I'm as well pleased there were 100 at my meeting.

Monday, 18 March, 1985 Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Agriculture finally heard from an area that's under extreme financial pressure, but he hasn't given them much hope so far. Yes, he was a big man to some of them because he went out and heard them, but his response is not overly accepted . They haven't heard anything other than a small move for 4,000 farmers. As far as the outlook is concerned, and what he is going to do, they haven't heard very much, and they're anxiously waiting because the next meeting might be a little less than friendly with the Minister. Mr.

Speaker, I hope he does go out again, and I'm sure it will during an election campaign, and I welcome him to come and lay before the people of that area exactly what he has done, because that leads me to the next area of my concern. All last summer, Mr. Speaker, we pleaded to the Minister of Agriculture to implement a program to help control the grasshoppers in the southwest region of the province, grasshoppers that were taking all the needed feed supplies, Mr. Speaker, killing the grasses, getting rid of all the crops. What did he do, Mr. Speaker? He did absolutely nothing, Mr.

Speaker, he did absolutely nothing. (Interjection) - Yes, Mr. Speaker, he says look at the map . What else, Mr. Speaker? The people of southwest Manitoba have said to the Minister of Agriculture, you have implemented a feed security program under the Crop Insurance Program and we, because of the grasshopper infestation and the maps pointing out that we are going to be in a difficult time again this year, we plead with you to give us the opportunity to buy a feed security program through crop insurance - the municipalities of Arthur, Brenda, Edward, all those municipalities that need it. But what did he do, Mr.

Speaker? He took the program up to the Interlake, Mr . Speaker, where our farmers have had to pay $10 0 a ton this year to buy feed and haul down into the southwest corner. He didn't give it to the people that needed it, Mr. Speaker, he tried to cover his own political butt with the program. He transferred it from the southwest, Mr. Speaker, to the Interlake area. That's what he did as Minister of this province. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the honourable member's comments.

He should check the record that it was his own federal colleagues who did not support the additional cost of putting that program in his own area, Mr. Speaker. We put that forward, and they would not put it forward, so, Mr. Speaker, he should be aware of that. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I still challenge the Minister to go and put that program in the southwest corner as well as all of the rest of the province because, as an election platform, I am pledging to the farm commu nity right now that under a Pr og ressive Conservative Government that we would put it all throughout the province, that it just wouldn't be picked here and picked there, that all farmers who are in need throughout the province could avail themselves of that program, Mr. Speaker. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

The honourable member knows that that program is 194 now going to be put in through the whole province, but it isn't in his area, Mr. Speaker, because it was his colleagues that would not finance it. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That's not a point of orde r, it's a point of clarification. MR. J. DOWNEY: Would the Minister back his words up, that it is not going to be in my area this year? I want it there this year, Mr. Speaker, and I challenge him to put it there because he took it from there to his own backyard for his own political purposes. Mr . Speaker, I made reference to the Beef Security Program.

As well, I want to make reference to the fact that the drought and flood program, again, was handled in a way which was less than competent. Mr. Speaker, we have many farmers in the western region who are being forced to buy hay from people who got the drought program; people who didn't get support are now having to buy from their neighbours - and I know my colleague from Minnedosa has some constituents who he is going to put on the record in that same situation. Mr. Speaker, we look at a Minister's record who has not been able to handle the daily events or affairs of his department.

We talk about the fuel contamination problem. I got an

article from the Department of Agriculture today, Mr. Speaker, that was absolutely disgusting. If his department can't take more leadership, and he can't take more leadership, to clean up a mess that's costing farmers mi llions of dolla rs, and give them some assurance that the fuel they're buying is clean and pure, then I, Mr. Speaker, would think that this Minister should be able to give a better explanation than he has. It's an insult to the farmers to say that they don't know how to clean up their fuel tanks, and how to check their machines. He's six months behind, Mr.

Speaker, and so is the engineer he's had doing it. I ask him to get involved in the real world. Mr. Speaker, I want to make some reference to other areas. The Minister of Agriculture who pretends to be the great helper of the farm community raised the the Crown land . . . , reimplemented the dug-out filling charges that were waived by our administration. And let's talk for a few minutes about a crisis in the hog industry, Mr. Speaker, and I would wish the Minister of Agriculture would have dealt with a real crisis in the farm community. Mr.

Speaker, we now have approximately 1 million hogs leaving Canada a year going to the United States; that's a tremendous increase from last year. The hog producers are enjoying the strength of the U.S . dollar, and they're marketing into the U.S. and it's given additional money to the farm communities, particularly the hog producers, and we've enjoyed that market. But, Mr.

Speaker, because of concerns in the United States and the plight of the U.S . farmer, which we're all equally concerned about, v.e're seeing activity down there where the hog producers are saying they don't want any more hogs from Canada or, in fact, they're prepared to implement a tariff, a tariff on those hogs going south. Well, the truth of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, there is such a small percentage of Canadian pork going south, as a total of their production and consumption,

Monday, 18 March, 1985 that it really doesn't impact or affect the prices in a big way, but it is perceived as doing that. What has this Minister done, Mr. Speaker, other than throw mud at the people in the United States, and his colleagues? What has he done to improve the trade relationships with the United States?

Has he written any of the Senators in the United States saying, this is the case that Manitoba puts forward, this is the situation we find ourself in and remem ber, at the same lime that you and the United States are thinking of imposing some form of penalties on our hogs going south, that a lot of those hogs are being fed on corn that is imported from the United States. The barley's been coming into the feed mills of Western Manitoba and Western Canada all year. In fact, it is keeping the corn price and the barley price down in our province, Mr. Speaker. It's a two-way street, Mr.

Speaker, but what has this Minister of Agriculture done to speak out on behalf of the farm communi ty? He's done absolutely nothing but allow his Prem ier, his Minister of Energy and Mines, his former Minister of Natural Resources, to do nothing but throw mud in the face of the people of the United States and the farm community in this country, by the way, depends fairly heavily upon for a lot of their markets, a lot of our markets, Mr. Speaker.

I could speak about beef cattle that goes out, about the dollars that come into this province because of the export beef trade - (I nterjection) - yes, stocker cattle, beef cows. The Member for Ste. Rose, I'm sure his constituents have a tremendous support coming from the buyers of cattle who ship cattle into the United States. But he allows his colleagues, like the former Min ister of Natural Resources, to throw mud at the people of the United States and then still . . . you know, Mr. Speaker, they just don't understand what being a good neighbor is. I'm pleased, Mr.

Speaker, that there was mention by my colleague for Rhineland about the concerns in the sugar beet industry. Well, I again have to point out to the Minister of Agriculture that if the sugar farmers in the Province of Manitoba are depending very heavily on strong rep resentation from th eir Mini ster of Agriculture, they've got to think a little differently. Mr. Speaker, I have only heard that he has sent a letter to the Federal Government telling them or requesting that they implement a stabilization program for this year. I haven't heard of them calling the sugar industry to Manitoba.

I haven't heard of them calling the sugar producers to a meeting of which they can all explain to one another what the situation is and so the public can understand. The people of Winnipeg and Fort Garry had better start paying attention because there is extreme danger of the sugar refinery in the Province of Manitoba being closed down, if this Minister and his government don't start showing a little care and concern for them and get involved and show them that there's support there. But there has been very little coming forward so far.

Again he runs off and he says to the Federal Government, it's up to you to do something. Well, those jobs are here in Manitoba, they're here in Winnipeg. Those 400-and-some sugar beet farmers need the protection of a government. They need to show that they're needed. Yes, Mr. Speaker, look what they're doing for Flyer. This Minister gets totally out of touch with the needs of Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. This Minister is totally out 195 of touch with the hog industry and then let us talk briefly about the recent action in the dairy industry and the poultry industry.

I don't blame the registered producers of eggs for being a little upset You know, there were other options that the Minister of Agriculture could have looked at. There is a cost of removal of surplus eggs in the province. There's a cost of removal of surplus eggs, and the registered producers are bearing all of that cost, 6.5 cents a dozen. think there could have been consideration given to charge all the producers of eggs some of that removal charge, another option that could have been looked at. But what did the Minister of Agriculture do?

He said, ah ha, we'll move the unregistered production quantities from 499 to 99. Well, I have a letter on my desk today, Mr. Speaker, that points out that a producer had 100 birds last year and he was going to go to 499 this year and it would have made him $3,000 this summer. His plans are blown, Mr. Speaker. That income is gone by this Minister. The numbers of unregistered producers, and it's caused the egg producers some concern, has increased from 1981, from 500 to over 1,000 last year. That tells you just how tough the farm community is, Mr. Speaker.

People are looking for other ways to make an income and this Minister of Agriculture sees fit the only way to move is to cut them off, cut them back to 99. That's what he's done, Mr. Speaker, cut them back to 99. I want to talk to about the dairy industry for a few minutes because again we have a Minister of Agriculture under an NDP government who has totally put the dairy industry in disarray. Not only a few years ago did we see the dumping of milk, but now, Mr.

Speaker, we're seeing a Minister wanting to say that you're going to be controlled by me and my government as to what you can sell and what you can't sell. - (I nterjection) - Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have a Minister of Agriculture who says that he will not allow a partial sale of a dairy herd or a dairy quota, unless it's within family or unless you sell your total farm. Mr. Speaker, that's not what the dairy producers of this province want. I'm surprised that he didn't stand today - rather than go through the tirade in question period - and tell us about what his dairy policy is.

How is he going to work the impasse that he is in? You see, he has our good friend from the western region of the province, our good friend, Maude Lelond on the Natural Products Marketing Council, you know, good person. But you know she's pretty left-wing bent and he's got a few others accompanying her on that particular board. Is he going to challenge them or is he going to be pushed around by the board?

Is he going to be pushed around by the Natural Products Marketing Council, or is he going to say to them, look, we can't tolerate the kind of policies that you're imposing on our dairy industry, that I see that we've got to deal with this? Is he going to call the agricultural committee and say this is what we, the government, we, the producers, see as the best way to go? You know, he talks about our policies. I think, Mr.

Speaker, our policies worked fairly well for the dairy industry, and I don't think we'll have any trouble when it comes to campaigning in the next general election in any part of the province where it comes to dealing with the farm commu nity and particularly the dairy producers. I challenge the Minister of Agriculture to clean up his act, to go to the dairy producers, to call the

Monday, 18 March, 19 85 agricultural committee and have them come before that committee and say, Mr. Minister and the members of the Legislature, this is what we think is best for the dairy producers in this province, if you want us to stay viable. If you want to stay viable, don't call the Natural Pr od ucts Mar keting Council, have them mak e a presentation if they want, but let's get the facts out on the table. He's been fumbling with it since July and now it's turned into totally a mess. He's got chaos in the chicken industry. He's got chaos in the dairy industry.

The hog producers don't know where they stand, and there's one other one - and I should have brought it up when I was talking about the hog industry. One of the concerns of the American hog producers is that some of the production that's going into the U.S. markets is subsidized by government in Canada, either by the Federal Go vernment or by the Pr ovincial Government. Is he prepared to tell the people of Manitoba or work out with them that this is a problem, that they're going to take off some stabilization or they're prepared to look at that particular angle?

If it means keeping the market in the United States, I'm asking the Minister what his policies are, is he going to deal with it? Mr. Speaker, if the Minister wants to hear my poli cies, then he should resig n; he, as government, resign, and we would form government and we would tell him what our policies are. That's the way he'll find out what are policies are. Mr. Speaker, we have no difficulty in going to the farm community and espousing what our policies are because I can tell you, they'll be in the best interests of the producers and the consumers in this province.

This Minister and this government only think of No. 1 first, that's thems elves and their re-electio n, Mr . Speaker. They give a damn about the farmers! They give a damn about the consumers! They don't care about Manitobans, all they care about is their re­ election, Mr. Speaker. That's all they care about. And I can tell you, I'll speculate right now, Mr. Speaker, there'll be very few of them back after the general election. Well, Mr.

Speaker, there's one other area that I have to deal with and that relates to what the Minister centered most of his speech around and that of course is the difficulty that he's having with the Federal Government. Well, Mr. Speaker, for 16 years the farm co mmu nity of Ma nitoba have been waiting for a government in Ottawa to pay some attention to them. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we are well on the way.

I think that the Federal Government, first of all, in dealing with the problems with the Agribond or their interest in developing an Agribond program, where they can allow investors to invest in a bond system where their interest rates are lower but they pay less tax, is an important principle and one which will remove some of the cost of taxpayers in helping the farm community. That, Mr. Speaker, would encourage private investment into a bond system that would take some of the responsibility away from the taxpayer directly. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, a person doesn't have to a 100- watt bulb burning to see that principle. The Minister of Agriculture may have, but the principle that I'm suggesting is that if a private person wants to invest in an Agribond, for a lower rate of return on their interest, that they aren't taxed at such a high rate as a normal investment would be, that they would in fact 196 be getting private investment into the industry and it wouldn't be a handout from government. That's a principle that I stand for and I think it's an important one. It is not a handout. Look, for years, Mr.

Speaker, the housing industry in this country - they can use the word "MURB" if they want - but there was a tax incentive, there was a tax incentive for a private investor to invest in the housing industry and, in return, they had to pay less income tax on that investment. The same principle would apply to the farm community, and I don't see what's wrong with that, and the government is offering that kind - in fact, the Department of Finance is sitting now studying that kind of a proposal. The capital gain one is another important issue because we find . A MEMBER: Right. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, sir.

We find that in the farm commu nity today, because of the continued depression, that many farmers have had to sell off parcels of land, some of their assets, to liquidate and pay off some of their debts that have accumulated in the past two or three years. It's unfair that if, from the sale of that property, they have to pay a capital gain on it . I'll give this government a little credit, they removed the provincial share, but this present Federal Government is considering the removal of the capital gains on such a sale.

That would take the pressure off some of those individuals that may be taxed on the money that they would take to pay a debt off to the bank or some other institute. That again is a good principle. There is another reason on the capital gains. There are many of our retiring farmers who may want to take some of their money and invest it in agriculture in an agribond, or whatever. I don't believe that it's a just society when a farmer puts all his lifetime savings into a farm, into farm land, and when he or she sells it, Mr. Speaker, is penalized.

Because any other citizen living in society, if they put that money into a savings account, they wouldn't be taxed at the same rate as what they would be in the capital gains. I think we've got to move in that direction, and again, the Federal Government is looking at it. Mr. Speaker, that's more than the Trudeau Liberals did in 16 years for the farm community. The Trudeau Liberals, supported by our current government and our current Minister of Agriculture, continually said why should we give a darn about the farmers. Trudeau himself said why should we care about the farmers; why should we sell your wheat?

That's the kind of government that this NDP Government supported, the Trudeau Liberals. - (Int erjection) - Yes, Mr. Speaker, they ran hand in hand. The point I want to make here is that we have a government today that needs the help of the Federal Government to help our farm community. They need the help of the Federal Government apparently to give us $72 million of an equalization payment, but to hear the First Min ister , when you ask him how the unemployment is in Manitoba and how the conditions are in Manitoba, he says to the public everything is great in Manitoba. Isn't everything great?

He stands up and puffs right up and he says things are great.

Monday, 18 March, 19 85 Then, Mr. Speaker, as one of my colleagues, a former leader, said, and then he takes his tin cup and he runs to Ottawa and says we are a have-not province, Mr. Speaker, we need $72 million. You can't have it both ways; you can't have it both ways and you are not going to fool the people of Manitoba. And with you as a government we are becoming to be a lot more of a have-not province. I don't think 72 million would anywhere near bail you out the way you spend your money and try to advertise your image. The point is, Mr. Speaker, you can't have it both ways. In my conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, I feel very disappointed that this government has let the farm community down. I make reference again to the pledge of 19 81, and I am going to table this because I have never seen it tabled in !his Legislature. Here is a page where the First Minister promised, signed a guarantee that no one would lose their homes or farms due to high interest rates, and we now have a record bankruptcy in the province, Mr. Speaker, 62 - (I nterjection) yes, the Mem ber for lnkster is laughing that some 62 farmers have gone broke last year. The Member for lnkster finds humour in that. MR. SPEAKER, J.

Walding: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am going to table that message from Howard Pawley and make sure that the public knows what he said in 1981. But I would hope that in the coming days and weeks that the Minister of Agriculture would come forward and follow up on one of the positive recommendations that we made, and that was to provide some of the $250 million at a lower interest rate, a positive suggestion, something that he said that he hadn't received from us. He said he hadn't heard anything but from the Member for Morris. I am going to table, as well, Mr.

Speaker, a letter that was asked for by the Mem ber for Ste. Rose. He asked a question of the Minister the other day: Had he received any correspondence from the members opposite? I am going to table a letter and an attached documentation of Hansard that I sent the Minister on January 31s t with some positive recommendations, Mr. Speaker. The Minister just stood here and said the only correspondence he had was from the Member for Morris. Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Agriculture has been playing political games with the farm community. He has been trying to play political games with us; it won't wash.

All we need, Mr. Speaker, is an election so that we can clear this government from office and get Manitoba back on the right track. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I would like to extend congratulations to you, once again, in the office of the Speaker of this House. It's a very difficult office; it's an office that is judged by the judgment of the Speaker's capacity to undertake decisions, tough decisions, when there are disputes within the House.

It's that judgment that makes 197 the difference between truly great Speakers and Speakers who have, perhaps, not really developed quite the reputation of others in history. I would like to express my congratulations to the appointment of both the new Deputy Clerk and the Clerk of Comm ittees. Both these individuals are filling the shoes of predecessors who did excellent jobs, and they both gave me a great deal of guidance both in the House and in committee. I certainly wish both of them well in their new respective careers.

For the replacements, the new Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Com mittees, I equally wish them well in their endeavours. For the Member for Fort Garr y, welcome into the House. I think and I hope that he will bring some ration and some reason to the desks opposite and that we will hear fewer flares of the great rhetorical response that we just did a minute ago, and that he will give the members on his benches that he shares p