VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASS&~BLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MARCH 12, 1981 NO. 9 .. ''I

March 12. 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M . Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~R. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): Tape 314 PK - 1 Order, please! Hon. members,! know,would want to join me in welcoming to the galleries today a delegation representing the Joint Councils representing communi ties in the dist1~icts of Bonavista South and Trinity North. SQI.1E HON. HE!1BERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BRETT: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY tUNISTERS The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a statement. ~he statement in fact is a telegram which I wired to Major Gerald Bowering of Deer Lake this morning, and it is in response to some allegations made by Mr. Bowering in this morning's paper. This is a telegram. 'Assuming you are not misquoted 1 I am very disturbed and take strong exception to your comments in today's edition of ~·he Daily News. Since the first hint of downgrading or closing out the Deer Lake Airport 1 I have worked diligently and supported your council and all concerned to see that both the Airport at Deer Lake and Stephenville maintain the status quo.

I have not washed my hands of the affai~ nor have I ever suggested that either myself as Minister of Transportation or the Provincial Government as a whole would ever do anything but fight to the better end on your behalf. On yesterday's date you received a telegram from our Premier offering you his full support. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 11R. BRETT: Early last week - :1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for LaPoile. 033 .. , ''I ''I

:.rarch 12, 19 81 Ta pe 314 PK - 2 C<!R. :~EARY: l'lr. Speaker, I have been :::ollowing what the hon. gentleman has been saying there and I have to draw tD the House's attention that that is not a Ministerial Statement, as Your Honour knows. All Your Honour has to do is refer to the specific

section of Beauchesne and the Standing Rules of this House that indicate that Ministerial Statements involve urgent,pressing matters of public importance, ;..rr. Speaker. SOME HON. HEMBERS: i"IR. SPEll.KER (Mr. Simms): l•!R. NEJI.RY: Oh, oh! Order, please! The particular minister is taking advantage, abusing the Ministerial Statement Period tn nP.fP.nn hims~lf against accusations or charges that were made by Major of Deer Lake. And that is not, Mr. Speaker, a Ministerial Statement. The hon. gentleman is not making a Ministerial Statement, he is reading a telex, reading a telegram to the House.

And I would submit to Your Honour the minister is completely out of order. MR. MARSHALL : MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order. The hon . President of the Council. MR. 1-IARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. gentleman gets his authorities, because he ne ver quotes authorities because he thinks himself is authority. But, Hr. Speaker, if you wish to refer to Beauchesne, Page 262 to Page 26S,it sets forth certain aspects of Ministerial Statements and this, of course, applies to the House of Commons, but it is somewhat kindred to the House here. 0 sf, .. ,

March 12, 1981 Tape 315 EC - 1 M...l<.. HARSHALL: Let me say that his definition of a Hinisterial Statement as being a matter of urgent, public importance is something that he has conjured up himself, but let me also assure Your Honour that when the ministry of this government makes a statement, it is always a matter of real public importance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HARSHALL: The hon. the minister, Mr.

Speaker, is making a statement concerning the status of the airport at Deer Lake, the continuance of which this administration is supporting, and supporting quite strongly, and if the hon. gentleman does not feel that that is a matter of urgent public importance, or for that matter if he does not think it is a matter of importance, I think he ought to reassess his position in this House as a spokesman for the Opposition sitting in the back­ benches. MR. F. ROWE: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order, the hon . the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: If the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is going to quote from Beauchesne, Mr. Speaker, he might as well quote the full statement. The last sentence of paragraph 262 says, "The purpose of the ministerial statement is to convey information, not to encourage debate." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. ROWE: Now, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister is not relating to the situation at the Deer Lake airport but is ~rying to explain himself away in the House of Assembly as a result of a debate that he has gotten himself into with the Mayor of Deer Lake . trvinq to weasel ~is way out of his carelessness and negligence. oss ''I . . .

1-larch 12, 1981 Tape 315 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: I do not think this is the proper place, the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, to try to explain himself away to the Mayor of Deer Lake, and I would suggest that this does encourage debate and therefore the point of order is valid. SOME HON. ME-"1BERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order raised, we certainly have had Ministerial Statements in the same category in the past and Beauchesne also indicates - althougn I cannot find the reference right at my fingertips - but somewhere it indicates that when a minister makes a statement, he makes a statement on government policy or ministerial administration, and I suspect that that falls under that particular category at this time. I point out also, as well, that the members to my right have an opportunity to make comments and seek explanation and clarification for half the time following at least.

Transportation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BRETT: The hon. the Minister of Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I think I will go back to the first part of that paragraph again in case some hon. members have not been following what I have been saying. "I have not washed my hands of the affair, nor have I ever suggested that either myself as Minister of Transportation or the provincial government as a whole, would ever do anything but fight to the bitter end on your behalf. On yesterday's date you received a OSG .. .. ~ .,, ··,

)larch 12, 1981 Tape No. 316 )lR. C. BRETT; telegram from our Premier offering you his full support. Early last week I wrote the CTC demanding public hearings in both Stephenville and Deer Lake if EPA made application to discontinue services at either of these airports. I have stated publicly that we will be appearing before the CTC to strongly oppose any such application. liThe provincial government has SD - 1 no weapons other than logic and persuasion. Regardless of what Mr. Tobin did or did not say, the ball is in his court. Should the CTC rule in Mr.

Steele's favour,there is only one body that can over rule the decision 1 and that body is the Federal Cabinet. As you are aware, they recently overruled the CTC decision with respect to the Halifax/Toronto route, ~herefore it is not unreasonable to expect that Mr. Tobin would ask his federal colleagues to take the same sort of action again. Meanwhile, if you personally take exception to my handling of the situation and do not want my assistance, then I shall continue to work on behalf of the whole area through other persons and other channels~' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. C. BRETT: And, Mr.

Speaker, to further outline our government's policy in this respect'· I also would like to read the telegram that the Premier quoted to the same gentleman yesterday. And th.e telegram reads, "I wish to reiterate my governmen ·t' s deep concern over EPA's plans to drop Deer Lake from their routes.

As part of their being a regional carrier, EPA has an obligation to cross subsidize less lucrative routes with more lucrative routes 1 and one would wonder what other smaller airports in Eastern Canada will fall victim to such a pr~cess of rationalization. ''I agree with you in that it is the federal government 1 not the CTC 1 that has the final say in this matter. This puts tremendous onus on MP Brian 057 ' 'I .., .. ' 'I

r-larch 12, 1981 Tape No. 316 SD - 2 HR. C. BRETT: Tobin and the Hon. William Rompkey to see that justice is done by the federal Cabinet so that Deer Lake continues to have an operational airport served by the regional carrier." And ~hat is signed by the Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (S irnrns) : MR. T. BENNETT: Hear, hear. The hon. member for St. Barbe. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would most vehemently like to suggest that Mr. Tobin and Mr. Rompkey have done their work in this instance~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR.

BENNETT: - I can assure you, I would most certainly want to see the minister table the correspondence that he has had in relation to the downgrading or the elimination of either of these airports in Western Newfoundland. I ask the minister to table that correspondence so that we can take a look at it and see if there is anything that we can weed out of it. I certainly would like to take a look at it and I am sure the people of Western Newfoundland would certainly like to take a look at it. So I would still like to ask the minister to make sure that he tables that information so that we can go back 058 "'• ..

!'1arch 12, 1981 Tape No.317 EL - 1 MR. BENNETT: to Eastern Provincial and to Ottawa. Now, I am of the opinion, Mr. Speaker, that if we had a Minister of Transportation that could and would neg­ otiate in a reasonable, sane and sensible manner with Ottawa, I feel very certain there is no way there would be any down­ grading of any of these airports,either of these two air­ ports. Ottawa has proven its faith and good judgement by now allocating $3 million for these two airports,$1. ?million for Stephenville and $1.2 million for Deer Lake.

Now, $ 1.2 million for Deer Lake does not indic- ate that the federal authorities want to close out Deer Lake. So, I am very anxious to see the minister's correspondence that he has had. I am very anxious to see it,so that if he has had no correspondence, well,tell the House and if he has had correspondence ·let us see it. And if there has been no correspondence, then I must submit Mr. Speaker, that the minister has fallen down on his obligations as the Minister of Transportation (C.Brett) of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARS HALL : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Council. MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! ?1r. Speaker.

The hon. the President of the Mr. Speaker, unlike the previous statement, I know this is a statement or a matter that will obtain the support of both sides of the House and I refer to the distinction to this House that occured yesterday by rea­ son of the award to the hon. the Minister of Forestry (C. Power) of the Canadian Humane Association Award that was presented to the hon. minister yesterday at Government House. This was a Meritorious Award·for Bravery which arose,as the hon. members know, because it was referred to in the House last 059 ··,

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 317 EL - 2 MR. MARSHALL: year shortly after it happened,to the hon. minister for acts of bravery in rescuing two men from a snowstorm last year while they were in the Avalon Wilderness ,;';.rea .-And I do not think that any hon. member in this House would like this opportunity to pass without extending this House's congratulations to the hon. minister because it is not only an honour to him but,I suggest,to all hon. members and to this House itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIP-LING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR.

STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think that this is one of those occasions when we can all speak for our colleague, colleague of all fifty-two members,and congratulate the minister and join with the President of the Council (W.Marshall) in ex- tending our congratulations and best wishes. It is one of those rare times when we can all be unanimous. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAl<ER : Hear, hear! You have heard the motion. Those in favour, aye. Aye. Contrary minded, nay. Carried. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier. Sir, would the Premier indicate to the House why he has not communicated an answer to the Newfoundland Fed- eration of Labour in connection with their request to meet with the hon. gentleman to discuss the strike situation in the Prov- ince? 9UO .. I

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 318 DW - 1 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I shall table this afternoon the correspondence to which the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) relates. There was a letter written on February 26th., the letter was written on February 26th., by one Mr. March to my office. It was written on February 26th. I do not know the date on which it was received in my office but a letter from me, signed by me,back to Mr. March was dated March 2nd. On the same day that I responded to Mr.

March's letter dated February 26th. 1 there was a further piece of correspondence dated March 2nd. from ~r. Mayo,which was received in my office sometime after March 2nd. 1 to which I replied on March 6th. I like to think that I answer my correspondence. SOME HON. MRMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. s. NEARY: A sup!Jlementary, Mr. Speaker . ~1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY: In view of the fact, 111r. Speaker, that we do not have the correspondence in front of us,would the han. gentleman indicate to the House what he told Mr. Mayo in his letter?

Is the han. gentleman going to meet with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour in the interests of preserving labour peace in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated to Mr. Mayo and to Mr. March that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and the-President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) are available to meet with NAPE and to meet with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour on ongoing problems in the labour scene in Newfoundland. 901 .. , ··.

~arch 12, 1981 '1~. S • NEARY: '!R. SPEAKER (Simms): member for LaPoile. "!R. S. NEARY: Tape No. 318 DW - 2 A final supplementary, ~r. Spenker. A final supplementary, the hon. ~r. Speaker, obviously the govern- ment are trying to restrict discussion in this House and they are qoing to take away the right to get court injunctions aqainst people who object to having their property damaged in the spray programme, and now the hon. gentleman is refusing to meet one of the most important bodies in this Province, the Newfoundland Federation of Labour. PRE~IER PECKFORD: Question. L"':R. S.

NEARY : And I ask the hon. gentleman would he re-consider because there is no more important body in this Province than the Newfoundland Federation of Labour. And why will the hon. gentleman not sit down with the executive and the officers of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour to discuss the strike situation,or does the hon. gentleman want trouble and strife and a long hot Summer of labour trouble in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: ~r. Speaker, I am not sure if there were a couole of questions in that speech or not.

Suffice it to say from our point of view the government is ready, willing and able to meet with the Federation of Labour, with the executive of NAPE,at any time to discuss the labour situation in this Province. '1R. SPEAKER: Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. member for Trinity - Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the ~inister of Education (Ms. Verge). I am wondering if the ~inister of Education could inform the House how long the teachers in this Province have now been working without a contract? '""R.. SPEAKER: ~he hon. Minister o~ Education. 9G2 .. ,

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 31 8 DW - 3 ~S. VERGE: ~r. Speaker, the collective agree- ~ent between the Newfoundland Teachers' Association and the Federation of School Boards and Treasur y Board ,w hich was for a two year terrn,expired at the end of the S~rnmer of 1980. Since that time negotiations have been onaoin a 8:..~3 .. ,

~-larch 12, 1981 Tape No. 319 RA - 1 MS .L. VERGE: since that time negotiations have been ongoing and the matter is now before a con- ciliation board . MR. F. ROV..'E: MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): Bay ae Verde. S supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. member for Trinity- MR. F. ROWE: I have been gillen to understand ,Mr. Speaker, that the teachers have been working without a contract for approximately six to seven months: Is that correct? I am wondering if the minister,Mr. Speaker, could inform the House when in fact the teachers of this Province will be in a legal position to strike. .r.1R. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Education . MS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this whole matter in now before a conciliation board and it is not for me to comment on any such matters as those raised by the rnerrber Opposite . MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: />._ supplementary. The hon. me~ber for Trinity- Bay de Verde. HR. F. ROWE: Well,Mr.

Speaker, obviously the minister does not know what is going on with respect to negotiations with the teachers. wonder if the president of Treasury Board could inform the House when the teachers will be in fact in a legal position to strike,and if he can inform the House which issues are now outstanding with the N.T.A. or the teachers ,and have the teachers received a salary offer? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. -GOtttNS : Mr. Speaker, just a small 9G4

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 319 RA - 2 DR. COLLINS: correction to the statement that was made by the hon. member during one of his pre­ vious statements there. There is a contract in place at the present time: Teachers are not working without a contract. The previous contract is in place until the new one is negotiated. In terms of when the teachers will be in a position to strike, to a large extent that is up to the teachers. They may never decide to go on strike ever again, not this year, next year, any year. When they will be in a position to strike will be some­ thing for them to decide.

They can make that decision some time after the conciliation board report has come in and that report has been considered over a period of time. They will then be in a position to decide whether they want to or not. But it would be a wrong implication to make that the teachers have any intention at this point in time to go on strike. MR. F. ROWE: The second part of the question, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: I yield. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member yields.The hon . member for Trinity- Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister did not indicate what issues are still outstanding with the teachers and if in fact they have been presented with a salary offer and how much. MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, there were quite a large number of issues a~ there always are when the contracts are up for renegotiation. I do not remember the exact number, but I would hazard a guess that something between twenty- five and thirt y-five issues were up far resolution. Quite a large number of those issues have now been worked through 8G5 . ''t ''t

:.larch 12, 1981 Tape No . 319 RA - 3 DR . COLLINS : and a satisfactory understanding has been achieved on both sides. There are still a few others to be worked through before, as is trad it ional and is as ex­ pected, one gets down to what is usually referred ~o as the monetary ?ackage. There are a few issues that still have to be gone th .rough before ~~at point in time arises. And I might say that up 9CG ., ''I

March 12, 1981, Tape 320, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: to this point in time the negotiators on behalf of the teachers have shown extremely good relations l'l'ith our negotiators. There has been a very co-operative attitude towards the points raised on both sides, and it is very encouraging to see that so many points of agreement have been reached at this stage. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Social Services' Mr. Speaker, the Inter-faith family and community centre at Corner Brook, as the minister is very much aware, is in grave need of financial assistance. I need not

preamble very much. I think the minister is very much aware that if they do not get funding to carry them on after the end of March, they shall probably close out, their services will no longer be available. They presently have one group horne established, and it seems to be working well. Would the minister tell the House that,indeed,funds are going to be available before the end of this month so that service can be a continuing thing for these people in Corner Brook? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services . MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot inform the House that funding is going to be available to the extent that that organization requests it. I can agree with the hon .. gentleman that I am aware of the situation. I have been in touch with, and, indeed, :ny colleagues from the West Coast have been in touch with ll '. '7 W ~I

March 12, 1981, Tape 320, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: me and we have discussed this issue. I cannot commit the government to funding for the new fiscal year when we are going through the budgetary process, and I am sure my hon. friend appreciates and understands that ... procedure. I In relation to the group horne, whilst I, again, cannot commit monies which are not yet decided upon, however, I know of no plan to phase out any group homes, Instead, we are always attempting to increase the nurnber,and to open up new group homes. MR. BENNETT: A supplementary, .. , Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, there are no plans for phasing out. As a matter of fact, there are plans for extension. I understand there is a very dire need for these services, especiallv in the Corner Brook area. I am led to understand, Mr. Speaker, that in a group home the cost per person is something in the order of forty-five dollars per person per day as opposed to $200 per person per day at Exon House.

Should the Corner Brook group horne phase out, these people undoubtedly may have to come in this direction where it is going to cost your department $200 per day per person. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister SGEl

March 12, 1981 Tape NO. 321 EL - 1 MR. BENNETT: cannot find interim funding that could certainly salvage- and I say salvage because there is grave concern being expressed that indeed if funds do not become available very ,very shortly that the existing group home in Corner Brook will have to phase out. So I am wonder­ ing if the minister would put more effort into making sure funds became available. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman obviously did not get too clearlv what I said in resoonse to his first question.

I said that it is not the policy of this government to phase out and to decrease the number of group homes,but rather our policy is to increase them. Con­ sequently I see no danger in that group home being closed. Whether that organization operates that group home or whether the department, my department operates it, as we do many other group homes,is really academic at this point. The fact is that the hon. gentleman is partly right when he says the cost o~ providing for children in group home versus institutions shows a great saving and also shows an exceptionally high level of ser- vice.

So that the government stands totally committed to de- velopment of group homes. What we are involved in here is a number of other areas of concern, one being administrative costsr to other areas of various types of services which my department provides in certain instances,and we are talking about a number of things here with regard to that or­ ganization over and above the group homes. So, in a nutshell, my response to the hon. gentleman's question is I see no danger in terms of the group home itself. Who is goinq to ooerate it, 9G9 ..

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 321 EL - 2 MR. HICKEY: and I would hope it is that organ- ization,but who will I do not know at this point. The other issues are issues which are presently being debated. Of course, I am sure he under­ stands I cannot give a definitive answer at this time until I know the kinds of monies I have in my budget for the next fiscal year. MR. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : the member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, it is a week, I think - I believe it is a week ago a telegram was sent from the execut­ ive of the group home and they have not yet received a reply. And I am wondering now thatwhen the minister is making his final decision on this,! hope he also takes into account the jobs, not only the paid jobs but there are many, many other jobs - I understand there eight-and-a-half jobs now, paid jobs, surrounding the effort of group home development in Corner Brook, and many many other voluntary jobs that are of a very beneficial nature to the area.

So, I am asking the minister if he is going to reply and would he give us some indication of the nature of his reply to the executive of that organization? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Now that is a rather unusual question, to say the least. The hon. gentleman has asked me to inform the lagislature what I am going to say to a group maybe tomorrow morning. That certainly would not be in keeping with any kind of courtesy. And let me inform the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, that my response was conveyed to that organization through my colleague, 9 ·1 0 .. ··.

~-larch 12, 1981 Tape No. 322 so - 1 ~lR. T. HICKEY: the hon. !Ylinister of Education (Hs. Verge), number one, so that my reply now will only confirm what the association has already been told, point number one. Number two - MR. BENNETT: Courtesy, Mr. Speaker, courtesy. MR. HICKEY: - it is a week, ;.-rr.

Speaker, since the telex came to me. r am sure that organization appreciates that the fact that they did not get an instant response from me such as, no, we cannot ' fund you, c_learly indicates to them that I was trying desparately to take them out of their dilemma and to be able to indicate to them in some way what parts of their programme we might be able to tell them that could be continued and wh~t ~ther information I could give them , although not maybe a definite answer to all of the questions which were contained in that telex. I do not believe, Mr.

Speaker, that we have been negligent in any way in responaing. I think we have treated that request with speed and efficiency and,as I said, that organization knows clearly what the department's and government's position on it is up to the present time. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Does the han. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) wish to yield . MR. TULK: I yield, Mr. Speaker . i1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. :1R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this is The Year of the Handicapped, the Disabled- and the han. gentleman opened the year with a big ceremony do1m here in the lobby of Confederation Buildins-- _ c1R. HISCOCK : He has forgotten about that. c.lR. ~EARY: - would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House if the government is going to recognize The Year C) 'I o.JI ''I •·•I

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 322 SD - 2 1-lR. NEARY: of the Handicapped, the Disabled with merely lip service or is government going to do something constructive and objective? And specifically I am concerned with the question of the transportation of disabled people. As hen. members know,the Hub is going out of the business, the City of St. John's had agreed to undertake to pay SO per cent of the cost of transportation of the disabled to and from work and to and from university and to and from schcol.

Will the government undertake, will the minister's department undertake to supply the other SO per cent of the cost of transporting the handicapped here in the City of st. John's? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HICKEY: The hon. Minister of Social Services . Hr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for giving me the opportunity to explain the government's position on that issue. Number one, I am very much aware,and government is certainly very conscious,of the need for the whole matter of transportation to be resolved.

I explained the position of the government in regards to that issue at City Hall and very briefly confirmed that position after I was informed that the city had approved to underwrite SO per cent of the cost. And the position as I outlined was in keeping with the wishes of the disabled people who are employed in this city and who are seeking the transportation.

And their de8ision up to now, at least, has been,and as far as I knou still is, that they do not want to be segregated as a special group with a grant from the Department of Social Services but rather wish to be treated as all other citizens are who are employed in terms of the provision of a transportation system which is paid for by the taxpayers. Now, there are two components, Mr. Speaker~ one, the disabled people who are employed and who obviously would pay their own way;and those who 9 ·1 2 .,

March 12, 1981 Tape 323 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: Are not employed and who are receiving some assistance from my department, which is a reasonable number of people. In terms of the second group, we certainly would provide transportation - we have in the past -and will continue to provide trans­ portation and use whatever system the city would put in place. Ultimately, what decision will be made as regards a cost sharing formula, I am unable to say at this point in time, again, for the simple reason that we are in the process of putting together a new Budget. MR. NEARY: This is an emergency.

How do you deal with the emergencies? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, no disabled person, to my knowledge, in this Province at the hands of- MR. NEARY: You calli>ot help the disabled but you can buy flags. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, if the bon. gentleman will be quiet and let me answer the question. I repeat, no disabled person, no disabled citizen, to my knowledge as long as I have been associated with this department and the government, have ever suffered at our hands because of an emergency situation. I stand on that record and I suggest that we will continue maintaining that record. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): MR. TULK: The hon. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. It concerns the Royal CoiTmission's problem in being able to determine whether there is an adequate wood supply for the future of the Grand Falls mill. 9 'j 3 .. , ''I ...

Harch 12, 1981 Tape 323 EC - 2 MR. TULK: As I understand it, Mr. Speaker, the Commission was unable to reconcile the differences between the depart:rrentl's estimates of annual allmvable cuts and those of Abitibi-Price. In other words, we are perhaps cutting, if we listen to the depart.-aent, more \·mod than we should be cutting. The question is, Mr. Speaker, ''7ould the minister indicate which of those projections, those of Abitibi-Price or-his department, he accepts as accurate and inform the House which one he is using? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. ~!R. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, in the Royal Commission's hearings around the Province, they had, obviously, the problem of interpreting facts that carne from many different sources.

In the case of Bowaters, Abitibi-Priceand the provincial government, our own government and, of course, the Canadian Forestry Service, which does testing and surveying on behalf of the federal government, there certainly was a discrepancy between the figures that were used. lve are convinced that the figures that we have used as a provincial government are conservative figures based upon what we believe to be the actual wood resource in Newfoundland and certainly, Mr. Speaker, we are convinced of the long- term viability and stability of the Grand Falls mill. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Hr.

Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, I pointed out to the minister that his own department says that \Ve are now cutting more wood than we should be cutting, and if the minister is saying that his departrne~t is right, is he now saying that the annual allowable cut projections of Abitibi-Price over the past number of years have been wrong, which seems to have been basically accepted by his department, and 9 ·; 4 'I ''I .. . ''I ''t ...

Harch 12, 1981 Tape 323 EC - 3 MR. TULK: that perhaps we have been cutting more wood than we should have or perhaps the Grand Falls mill is not really viable in the future? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. 9 ': 5 •·J

:larch 12, 1981 Tape 324 PK - 1 HR. POWER: ·Mr. Speaker, there are several factors which come into play when you talk about the long-term viability of a forest industry in Newfoundland, especially as it relates to the budworm epidemic that we are having, the amount of wood that we have lost, and the amount of wood which is obviously cut each year on the annual allowable cut.

What has been happening in the case of the Grand Falls mill, the Stephenville mill, and,of course, the Corner Brook mill is the fact that there are many things taking place today which are going to guarantee a higher yield from the forest in years ahead than are now being done. The fact that 545 million is going to be spent on silviculture is going to materially effect how much wood will be available thirty or forty years down the road. I4R. NEARY: Thanks to Ottawa. HR.

POl-vER: The fact that we in this Province and our department haveaggressively initiated a cable logging programme that allows for us to harvest ~ood on steep slopes, brings into productivity.an awful of wood which ten years ago simply was not available because we did not hav~ either the wherewithal or the experience or the mone~ to develop. Today we are having steep slope logging in many parts of Newfoundland. There is a lot of wood which is now available and which will become available over the next ten, twenty, and thirty years.

Considering the things that we are doing,our new forest management programme, silviculture money, our money for forest protection, the experimentation that we are doing with different types of species, the experimentation we are doing with new types of harvesting equipment, we are convinced, ~tr. Speaker, that the 9 'J G ''I ''I ''I •·.

Narch l2, 1981 Tape 324 PK - 2 MR. POWER: long-term viability of the Grand Fal~ mill and the Stephenville and Corner Brook mills, and we look forward to thirty or forty or fifty years down the roacl. of having more mills in the Province. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: A final supplementy, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): A final supplementary. The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the minister that there seems to be some conflict between what he is saying and what the Commission is saying.

According to the Commission, the Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenville does not yet have assigned timber limits. And the Commission also goes on to point out that the timber limits to be assigned to Abitibi-Price for Stephenville will likely be taken from Crown lands in the Province, particularly from Zone I, I believe, Management zone I. Could the minister indicate where specifically in Zone I those timber supplies are coming from? And could he also tell us perhaps what effect that itself will have on the Grand Falls mill in regards to the wood supply? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forests Resources and Lands.

MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, in our agreement with Abitibi-Price as it relates to reopening of and the changing, r. of course, from a linerboard mill in Stephenville to a newsprint operation, we did make available to Abitibi- Price, we did guarantee them as a part of government's commitment,a twenty year wood supply. Government has not changed in that commitment .. We have guaranteed them in 9 'i 7 ''I '1

Harch 12, 1981 Tape 324 PK - 3 !'lR. POWER: negotiations and discussions only very recently the fact that they are going to have a guaranteed wood supply for twenty years. And we look forward, Mr. Speaker, in putting into place the management plans that we have to make sure that there is wood available.

Now the wood that we are talking about in the rationalization of timber limits between Grand Falls and Stephenville,which are between the same company, and possibilities of rationalization between Bowaters,which has a larger block of land to deal with and only has one mill, albeit a larger mill than the Stephenville or Grand Falls mill individually, but either way the rationalizations that have taken place between Grand Falls, and they had to happen, bet\veen Grand Falls and Stephenville are continuing to happen.

We are convinced,and we have talked to Abitibi-Price as recently as last week 1 that there is an adequate supply of wood for both the Grand Falls and Stephenville mills. MR. SPEAKER: (r·1r. Simms): There is time for one final question. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, ~R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. !1R. HODDER: A supplementary. I picked this particular item up in a Hainland newspaper where the minister said that the Abitibi-Price mill was having trouble securing a long-term supply of wood for the Stephenville mill.

And alsc that if it does not receive a staple supply of 1vood that it might be okay for the first few years, but there was some doubt about its future. I would ask the minister if this is so . If it is so, why was it that we signed an agreement with Abitibi-Price? 9 'j 8 'I ··~

)larch 12, 1981 Tape 324 PK - ~ :1 ~. ~-lODDER : And does the minister realize that this ~rticular mill that has just come on stream and. is trying to compe-::e with mills in other parts of North ~.meric. a 1 t:hat chis particular statement in the lv!a:l.nland press right across Canada was very 1 ve.ry damaging to the Abitibi­ P=ice m i~l in Stephenville! ;.rn. SP!::il.!<ER (:Vir. Sim.:n~ l : Resources and Lands. l·!R. PONER: The hon . :'lin is ter of ?crests Mr . Speaker, obviou sly the han. membe r ha s not read the P~itibi - Price agreement which relates t:o the important industry in Stephenville.

The agreement: bet1veen government and Abitibi - Price guarantees Abitibi - Price a ,.,.ood supply for t•;enty years . Anyone lvho ~noHs the forest industry in Nevlfoundla.'ld, especially the Wes t Coast, and the infestation of the bud1•orm 1 knows that there is goi ng to be damages and difficult to recur the losses that have taken ;:>lace in the short-tenr- •.vhen I say s hort: - cerm in the forest industry , twenty to =arty years - is a diffcult period for the ~~itibi mill in Stephenville. Abitibi-Price knows that, and the persons lvho manage the forest resources know that .

Now Abitib i-Price has had difficulcy L~is Spring 1 for instance, in getting enough woo::1 stockpiled to open the mill in mid - .l\pril. B.ut 8 'i 9 ., •• 1 .. ''1 .. .,

March 12, 1981, Tape 325, Page 1 -- apo MR. POWER: those types of things are based upon weather conditions, and upon the nature of the forest industry this Winter, which is unique this year and not going to happen every year. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, we have guaranteed Abitibi-Price, in our agreement with them, a long-term supply of wood, for ~wenty years guaranteed, which we are . convinced is there. We are convinced of the stability there. Abitibi-Price and us both know, as government, as managers, that there is going to be some difficulty and some short falls in a twenty to forty year period. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms): Questions has expired. Order, please! The time for Oral ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I should like to table, because I was asked a question on it in Question Period, the replies to Mr. Mayo, and the telegram I sent him to substantiate my statements that I did respond to him promptly on his request. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Charlottetown, in the district of Eagle River.

I take great pleasure in presenting this petition, and I regret to say that I am not too pleased,basically, by the results of this petition so far. The prayer of the petition reads: "lve the residents of Charlottetown, i.n the district of Eagle River, hereby petition the House 920 ''1 •..

March 12, 1981, Tape 325, Page 2 -- apb Yffi. HISCOCK: of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. lfle ask the House of Assembly to make sure that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation becomes responsible for administering the Rural Residential Rehabilitation Assistance prograrnrne"-cornrnonly called RRAP. "Y.Ie also implore the House of Assembly to make sure that there are local offices set up at Cartwright, Port Hope Simpson and Mary's Harbour. We have some of the worst housing conditions in Newfoundland and Labrador, and all of Canada.

This area has been designated as a rural residential rehabilitation assistance programme area by the federal government since last year, and we still do not have this programme in operation. We call upon the federal and provincial governments to co-operate in this problem and properly implement this programme immediately." Mr. Speaker, this is a extremely important petition. Because the fishing has failed on the Labrador for the past several years, residents from Red Bay to Paradise River have to maintain two houses - not only two houses, but they have to maintain their fishing boats, their ski-doos.

It ha3 been proven that they pay the highest cost for electricity in Canada, it has also been proven that they pay the highest cost for food in Canada. And here we have a programme that was designated by the federal government for this area and we still, after a year's operation, do not have this programme in operation on the coast. It is a problem between Canada and Central Mortgaging and ~ousing and the Department of :-1unicipal Affairs and :'-lewfound land CJ ,., " u '- 1 ''I ''I

March 12, 1981, Tape 325, Page 3 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: and Labrador Housing Corporation. We need this programme in effect and if it does not come into effect within the next couple of weeks, what is going to happen is the break-up is going to come and we will not be able to get inspectors in, we will not be able to have local people come out for this programme. I have given Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation the names of people who are qualified to do this job. I have also given them to Central Mortgage and Housing.

If we do not have this programme in operation soon, what is going to happen is that all the residents of Charlottetown, as well as all the other residents in Lodge Bay to Paradise River, will be moving out to their Summer stations and another year - two years-will be lost in implementing this programme. It is a total disgrace to the bureaucracy, it is a total disgrace to the confrontational situation that has existed between the federal and the provincial governments and this has permeated not only by the level of politics, but it is also gone down to the level of other bureaucrats. Mr.

Speaker, I,as the member for this district feel that the people in my district are being used in the manipulation of critical points and as I have said, I feel very, very strongly about this. I support this petition one hundred per cent and I ask that this government do all they can to implement this programme immediately. Here we have a programme where you can get $3,500 back as a grant, a grant that the people of the area do not have to pay. Mr. Speaker, this government, through the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing have commissioned a study on these coastal communities 822 .. ,

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 326 Dl'l- 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: and this study has pointed out that the worst housing in New­ foundland and Labrador is in this area.~he Premier referred to it himself as the Twilight Zone. So, Mr. Speaker, not to kee~ this House any longer, I ask the House to support this petition and that we get this ~rogramme underway immediately,and if we do not get it underway immediately we are going to lose another vear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): .MR. N. l'i'INDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to res~ond for a few moments to some of the comments made by the hon. member.

First of all, he is directing his petition and his remarks to the wrong government. Again 1 this is a federal govern­ ment progra~~e in which the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation are a delivery agent of the federal programme. ~s were the anti-poverty organization, Mr. Speaker, on the Northern Peninsula who recently were taken - the programme was recently taken away from them by the federal government. Central Mortgage and Housing are now setting up their own agencies to deliver this programme.

The hon. gentleman mentioned that that area of the whole Province is designated as a Rural RRAP area, Indeed it is.. The problem is the federal govern- ment has never made enough funding available to actually put into effect, to implement the programme in this area. MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible) half a million dollars were sent back to Ottawe MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MH. N. !ATINDSOR: Mr.

Cosgrove, the federal minister responsible for CMHC,in an address to the HUDAC conference in Montreal,which I attended about a month ago,made very much in his remarks about the federal government policy of increasing funding for rehabilitation programmes, rehabilitation of housing, upgrading of older housing and so forth. That was what was the main thrust of his araument. 923 . .. "I

~larch 12, 1981 Tape No. 326 DW - 2 MR. J. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Hr. Speaker, the hon. member is debating. He can address - AN HON. MEMBER: Support. MP.. J. HODDER: He can support the petition but he is not allowed under the rules to debate. MR. W. "'!.ARSHALL: ~1R. SPEAKER: :'II.R. W. MARSHALL : 111r. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, all the hon. minister is doing is commenting on the petition.

The Petition related to the establishment of offices in Labrador, ~o the responsi­ bility of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation with respect to th~ delivery of Rural l=lRAP. And the minister is getting up and certainly he is supporting the petition for the delivery of Rural RRAP to the communities in Labrador, but he is also pointing out certain items and making comments on statements made by the hon. member when he introduced his petition. :MR. SPEAKER: IAJith respect to the point of order, it gives an opportunity to comment on something that has been a bit of concern to me lately in any event.

On numerous occasions in the past,members have been reminded of the Standing Orders which require that they confine themselves in :Jresenting petition? to the statement of the partiespetitioning, the number of signatures and the material allegations of the petition. Standing Order 97 reinforces Standing Order 92 in stating, "There shall be no debate:' Notwithstanding Standing Orders, a custom has arisen, I think it is fair to say,in our House of Assembly where members do make extended comments on the petition. This might be regarded as a matter 924

\!arch 12, 1981 Tape No. 326 m·.- - 3 ~~R. SPE3~ .. KER (Simms): of courtesy extended by hon. members to one another. I would simoly remi~d ~embers that this oractice is not sanctioned by any particular rule, that the five minute limit is a maximum,not a roini- mlL'11 1 and that when members tend to stray from the statement of the cetitioner~ 1rievances into the area of debate, in other words, beain to abuse the courtesy afforded to them bv other hon. members, then the Chair will interver.e at that time. The hon. Minister of Development. MR. N. WINDSOR: Thank you, ~r. Speaker.

By wav of clarification,I certainlv do support the need for this crogramme being exoanded to inch1de not only Southern Labrador but all of Labrador and, indeed, the whole of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador,as was desiq- nated. All we need is the sufficient amount of funding,and this is what I am tryina to point out, that the f.undina has not been made available by the federal government. And in spite of the fact that Mr.

Cosgrove stood up in Montreal and the main thrust of his address to the housina conference at that point in time was that the federal government were going to put emphasis on providing funding for rehabilitation of housing, a ~ew days later we received notification that something li~e 40 per cent of the allocation that we had requested for this year has been re·duced by the federal government and •lle are, indeed, getting less fundina. MR. S. NEARY: ~~r. Speaker. ~F.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile- r.'I..R. S. NEARY: Mr.

Sneaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition presented by my colleague, the member for Eagle River (~r. Hiscock) on behalf of the residents of Charlottetown, Paradise River, I believe and the Lodge Bay area. !,.~ I I ...Jl-u '1 'i .,

March 12 , 1981 Tape No. 326 Dt<l - il MR . S . NEA..'=!.Y : Nr . Soeaker , I never thou gh t I No u1d li ve long enough in this hon . House to hear a group of people petition for a proqrarnme that 1·1aS alread y imple ­ mented by L~e Government of Canada through which the pro - incial gov ernment act as agents of the Government oi Canada, the funding made available and the agents who undertook to implement the 9rogr~~e no t car rying out the re spon sibilit y, 82G ''] ~1 ~· ''1 ':1

March 12, 1981 Tape 327 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: because that is what has happened in this case, Mr. Speaker. The provincial governments right across Canada are the agents in this particular case. They undertook, Mr. Speaker, to implement the programme on behalf of the Government of Canada. And as I understand it, Mr. Speaker, last year $2.5 million was re~urned in 1979, $2.5 million returned under RRAP - I do not know how much last year, 1980 - $2.5 million unused. MR. WINDSOR: Not true, not true! MR. NEARY: M-It. WINDSOR: provinces unused? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR.

NEARY: And the people down in Eagle River How much was returned from other Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I did not interrupt the hon. gentleman when he was supporting - I am not sure if he was supporting the petition or not. But I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. I do not think we need an anti­ poverty organization to come in and run the programme. We have the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - and I believe that they should immediately tackle this job of implementing the programme in the district of Eagle River.

I think it is shameful that the federal government has made the funding available and the provincial government are not taking advantage of it. MR. SPEAKER: Further petitions? ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fire Prevention Act," carried. (Bill No. 5). On motion, Bill No. 5, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 927 .,,

l•larch 12, 1981 Tape 327 EC - 2 Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Protection Of The Forests Of The Province From Insects And Disease," (Bill No. 54). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I believe debate was adjourned the last time by the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I had just about finished my comments. If I could just briefly summarize: Government accepts that nobody likes the idea of having a chemical spray,whatever the testimony of the so-called experts as to the fact that it will not adversely affect humans.

I believe that in all cases people just do not know in this type of situation what the long-term effects are going to be. So it is a very serious matter to contemplate the use of chemical spray in our forests.

But when we have the best evidence possible after years of public debate, after input from everybody,including hon. members opposite 1 and we see that the conclusion is that the forest industry is going to be wiped out in this Province, that there are going to be thousands of jobs lost to our loggers, to the workers in our pulp and paper industry, the hardship that that entails, the unemployment, the conclusions of the medical corr~ittee indicating that medically the long-term effects are likely to be worse because of the unemployment and the poor nutrition and so forth that follows from lack of income than would result from the chemical spray, the hard choice is that it is a question: ~o we spray or do we let the forest industry go under?

The forest industry has been wiped out in Cape Breton. It is not just a theoretical matter we are talking about here. If you look at Cape Breton, if you speak to the Government of Nova Scotia, you will see that the forest industry has been destroyed in Cape Breton. 920 ..

~!arc!'! 12, 1981 Tape 327 EC - 3 ~!..~ . 3A~.RY: Now, do we want to see the same thing happen on the Island portion of our Province? )lo. tie have no choice; hard choice though it may be, 1ve have to spray . Now, once that decision has been made, despite the opposition of the Opposi tio .n , des?ite members opposite saying, 'No, we do not believe in spraying ,' once government has made the decision - A)l EOK • HE!>1BE...~ : We did not say that. MR . B~.RRY : It is documen ted in Hansard , ~ - Spea~er . We now have members opposite not having the courage to accept the fact that spraying is nece ssary .

They are trying to frustrate a S?ray programme indirectly. Row are they doing that , Mr . Speaker? They are doing that by trying to encourage protest gr~ups - and there are a lot of people who will have sincere convictions , reasons to oppose spraying - a,. 9 vt. .. , J·•i

::.larch 12, 1981 Tape No. 328 SD - 1 MR. L. BARRY : but the Opposition are trying to encourage - the Opposition and the protest groups are trying to make sure that we, as a government, do not take action to see that the spraying decision can be implemented. The decision has been made; it is necessary to spray as much as we do not like it.

And there is an indication that without the amendment that is before us, without the legislation that is before us -it does not take away the right of individuals_to go to the courts,to seek the protection of the courts; it merely takes a••av or makes clear that there is no right to an injunction. Now, there is no right to an injtmction against government in any event. So all that is clarified here is that if there are oontractors retained by government to become involved in the spray programme, that an injunction cannot be obtained to stop the spray programme. MR.

STIRLING: Or any other action that the minister may want. MR. BARRY: An action for damages exists, and there is no taking away of an action for damages. But, Mr. Speaker, what is being established here.~nd it probably already exists as we see in the notes of this bill, it probably already exists, that the law at present says that there is no injunctive relief, an injunction cannot be obtained against government, a injunction probably cannot be obtained against a~ents of government;but just to make it absolutely clear this legislation is being passed to take away the right to injunction without proof of damage.

As the minister has said, there will be an amendment proposed at the committee stage, modification, where in the event that there is clear proof of damage,then there may be an injunction obtainable. But for somebody to go in and state that the mere fact of a spray falling on a piece of ground thac ~ .. ..:.':: person owns, witl10ut any proof that there is going to be any damage, while an injunction could possibly be obtainable and could delay matters for three weeks or so, 930 .. I '·r

i·!arch 12, 1981 Tape No, 328 SD - 2 MR. BARRY: and that would totally frustrate a spray programme. An injunction just being obtained for a matter of weeks could totally frustrate and stop the spray programme.P.ecause the spray must be applied, it must be applied 1vic.1in this very short period of time. when the larvae are in the stage where they can be hit by the chemical spray. And three weeks later, three weeks earlier,the spray may be totally ineffective. And, Mr. Speaker, the Opposition does not have the courage to come out and say that they are still against spray.

And what they are trying to do is, indirectly, by the backdoor, oppose the decision to protect the forest industry of this Province, oppose the decision to protect the jobs of loggers, oppose the decision to protect the jobs of the people in Corner Brook and the people in Grand Falls 1 and the people in Stephenville. MR. STIRLING: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): Leader of the Opposition . MR. STIRLING: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the The minister now knows what he is saying is not true, that the position of this Party is to protect those jobs.

And he has gotten away from the bill. The bill has nothing to do with this. rhe bill has to do with giving the minister the authority to de whatever he wants to do,including spray- that is what the bill is all about and that is what the debate should be all about- giving the minister the authority to do whatever he wants to do,and that the government feels that an individual should not be given the right to go to court to try to prevent damage. The minister is knowingly misrepresenting the view of this Party on this side of the House and he knows that. 931 ''t

'"' ~larch , ') __ , 1981 Tape )lo . 328 SD - 3 :>1R. . :-!A~SH.~LL: To ~,e point ot order, ~~ . Spea~er . :03 . S?E.;l._:{ER ()h· . 3utt ) : To the point of order , the hon . ~he President of the Council. :O!R . :·Lli.RSHA.LL : That is no point of order, Mr . Speake::: . .;s has bee:~ pointed out before by Your Honour <'~d ,.I o~~er occu9a~~ s of the Chai~, ?e:::sons risi~g on spurious ?Oints of order from time to time can really in effect cause disorcer in ~he House .

The hon . gentl e ma~ , in effect, the ~a~ ure of his complaint is tha-r. he disag rees with what che hon .. ~i:~ister has said . ~ow the format of the House is tha~ anyone \,•ho disagrees ~•ith something that is said by a ''1 ~e~ber has the opportunity in the debate to reply,and that is t:he ti::1e he replies . Anc lvhen t:he hon . gentleman rises on a point of o:::der like thi s,he is transgressing on the ::~~e alloted to d:e hon . member himself and 8~2

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 329 RA - 1 MR. MARSHALL: is consequently,when getting up on a point of order like that,himself very much out of order and contrary to the rules and the way in which this House is supposed to operate. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Butt): To that point of order 1 I would have to rule there is no point of order but obviously just a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. !-lR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I must thank the Leader of the Opposition, though , for again confirming 'Barry's theorem, 'Barry's. theorem,as you might recall, Mr.

Speaker,being that the closer you get to the truth, the closer you get to the point, the closer you get to revealing the fallacy and the destructiveness of policies put forth by members opposite,then the more likely you are to have them rise on points of order. Mr. Speaker, again we have seen that established,that when we get to the point of our concern about the Opposition policy, when we get to point out to the people of this Province that the Opposition are against protecting the forest industry of this Province- MR. L. STIRLING: MR. L. BARRY: MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: MR. L.

BARRY: Point of order. -are against protecting the jobs­ Point of order. Order, please! Order please! -of the people of Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Stephenville. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 933 •. , •·; 'I

~larch 12, 1981. Tape No. 329 RA - 2 :-!R. STIRLDlG: Mr. Speaker, people on the other side of the House who feel that they can use the protection of the Chair and the rules of this House to ~isstate positio~and they get reported in that order, And therefore ,Mr. Speaker, for as long as anyone on the other side of the House gets up to misstate the position of this party, we will have to use the rules of this House namel y points of order to clarify the position on this side of the House. And we will con­ tinue to do that,Mr. Speaker.

The minister is saying what he knows is not true and he is trying to misstate and cause a deliberate attempt Mr. Speaker, to cause us to sit and allow him to continue to state the party position which he knows is not correct. He knows that on this side of the House we have equal and maybe ten times the concern as people on that side of the House and that is why we are opposing this bill. Mr. Speaker, because it takes away a righs an individual right, and that is what he should be debating, this bill. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Order, please! The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have to rise again on the same point of order and I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne,page l03 1 Paragraph 317 that I will read for the edification of the hon. leader. ''If a member desires to ask a question during debate, he must first obtain the con­ cent of the member w~o is speaking. If the latter ignores the request, the former cannot insist, even if 9 3 i'" .. .. ,

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 329 RA - 3 MR. MARSHALL : he thinks he is being mis- represented. He cannot make a denial during the speech, but he must wait until the member has resumed his seat and then he may ask leave to make a statement, or he must wait until his turn comes to address the House.'' Now the rule,Mr. Speaker, is plain and if an individual in this House gets up when somebody else is speaking at every sentence and feels, because he disagrees with one or two words in the sentence that he can interrupt, Y~ur Honour,you are going to have nothing but chaos in the House itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MARSHALL: Now, the hon. gentleman has plenty of opportunities to put his position before the House,but he has not the opportunity to do it when a member is speaking. He is clearl y contrary to the rules and I must ask Your ffonour to draw him to order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Order, please! I think I have heard enough debate to rule on this point of order. Once again there is obviously no point of order, but the hon. the Leader of the Opposition took the opportunity to clarify remarks attributed to him or the party which he represents.

However, I would also like to point out , as was clearly pointed out by the hon. the President of the Council 1 that the Chair cannot tolerate any hon. member to rise on its spurious points of order. The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy has about two minutes to conclude his remarks. MR. L.BARRY: Mr.Speaker, I suppose a little historical aside should be noted here. When 935 .. , '"t

:.!arch 12 , 1981 l'ape No . 329 RA - 4 ~lR . L • B.ii-RRY : ~!r. Hitler and ~!r . ~ussolL"li :·;ere making clleir bids for power, the main strategy \'>'as to get out and co disrupt the political meetings of their oppor.ents and to p!:'event free debate sm!E HON . HE~lBERS : Oh, oh ! ~!R . L . .BARRY: And if somebody disagreed ~.;it;. them , to get up and to interrupt ahd to forceably in· terrupt and to prevent that speaker from continuing on wit:-. the points that \vere being made . And , Mr .

Speaker, we have had - again I must thank L~e Leader of the Oppo sit­ ion - we have had a clear statement of intent from the Leader of the Opposition that his tactic and the tactic of the Liberal Party of t.~is Province >vill be a Fascist tactic . ~he Fascist: tactic of incerupting SO~ffi HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Butt) : ~.ffi . L . BARRY : happen - SOME HON . 11EHBERS : ~·1R . SPEAKER: NR. L. BARRY: HR. SPEAKER: Oh , oh! Order , please! -a speaker whenever they Oh, oh ! Order, please ! Order , please ! - to disagree with the speaker. Order, please ! 83G J., .. , .. , , ... J.,

March 12, 1981, Tape 330, Page 1 -- apb MR.SPEAKER(Butt): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) rose on a point of order, I believe. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I think whatever standard you are using for that side also applies to this side - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STILRING: - and I would ~uggest that Fascist is not a parliamentary expression and I would ask the Minister, whom I recognize as an expert on Hitler, Fascism,and all that sort of thing­ I recognize his expertise- but I ask him to withdraw that remark. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point or order, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: If we might get some- thing clear here, there is nothing unparliamentary, there is nothing contrary to the rules of this House to use an accepted political label to describe a political philosophy or doctrine. Now, members opposite ~an get up, when their turns for debate arise, and deny that they are Facists, deny that they believe in interrupting people who are participating in the democratic process. But, Mr.

Speaker, if you were to check your Oxford Dictionary, or if you were to check your American dictionaries, you would find that Fascism - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - you would find that Fascist and Fascism is a legitimate description for a particular political philosophy. 937 ..I '·I

March 12, 1981, Tape 330, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: It is not. MR. BARRY: Mr. Spea~er, it is not being used in the pejorative sense~ it is being used in a factual sense to describe a particular political philosophy which was exemplified by the Leader of the Opposition's interruption. MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: his Beauchesne - Ml\, SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: MR.

HODDER: That member - Order, please' - can stand up - Order, please! - as much as he wants - Order, please! - and say what he wants. Order, please! But if Mr. Speaker - Order, please! Order, please! - would pay attention to Order, please! Sit down 'Jim'. Do I not have the right, Mr. Speaker, to respond to that point of order? MR. SPEAKER: Of course the hon. member has the right,as soon as the Chair recognizes him. The hon. the member for Port au Port. ~.R. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, if that hon. minister can get up and make the type of speech that he just made in the face of when he is totally, absolutely wrong - if Mr. Speaker would look at his Beauchesne, page 109, he would see that when the minister spoke of Fascism, his argument that a recognized political party, you could call it that, it says here, Mr. Speaker, in Beauchesne that Nazi is not a - 938 ''I .., .., ··,

March 12, 1981, Tape 330, Page 3 -- apb MR. BARRY: Nazi is an attitude. MR. HODDER: - that Nazi was a political party, Mr. Speaker, that Mussolini or Canadian Mussolini cannot be used in referring to other members. I submit, Mr. Speaker, as well that when we are called a group of Fascists here, that that as well would come into line with Mussolini or - that is page 109, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER{Butt): To that point of order: I will reserve ruling on it. I will check Hansard and find out what the hon. minister - how he attributed those remarks as Fascist or what have you. MR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: time has expired. Trinity - Bay de Verde. Your time is up now. The hon. minister's The hon. the member for MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I thought all the violent turbulence had settled down last week when the Minister of Mines and Energy was speaking, but he decided to keep it up again to day and I must say I was rather disappointed in the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Energy had no foundation in fact or fiction to suggest that any member of the Opposition is against the spray programme, not one single fact to support his contention that any member of the Opposition is against the forests of this Province, or the protection of the forests, as he stated. That is utterly false. He even stretched it as far as to suggest that we were against the welfare of the people of Corner Brook, Grand 939 ''I ''I ''I

:·1arch 12, 1981, Tape 330, Page 4 -- apb 1-!R . I: . B. Rm·iE : Palls and Stephenville, which is stretch.ing the trut:-t, I t.;ou1d suggest, Mr. Speaker . And he talked about the courage - or the lack of courage of the Opposition or Liberal Party. NelL let us talk about: courage, ~1r . Speak~r, let us indeed talk about courage . He said that we did not have the courage to support the spray progr~~e in this Province. ~1r. Speaker, that: is :alse to start off with . ive are talking about Bi 11 54, and we will get back to that la ter . Because it has nothi ng to do \vith spraying in this Province , Bill 54 .

But let us get back to courage , Mr . Speaker, let us get back co courage and let us see who had courage . Ron. members may remember well that 91:0 .. , ., ,, ''I

arch 12,1981 Tape No. 331 EL - 1 MR. F. ROWE: in 1978, Mr.Speaker, the government decided to spray this Province fairly heavily with matacil,against the wishes of many groups in this Province. They had that cour­ age, Mr.Speaker, what tremendous courage in 1978 they had,to go ahead and spray this Province with matacil.Then in 1979,-let us look at the courage of this administration, Mr. Speaker, in 1979, Mr. Speaker, when this administration knew that they were going to have an election that Summer, June of '79, what did the ad­ ministration decide in 1979? They gutsed out completely, Mr. Speaker.

They lost their great courage and they decided, not for any scientific reasons, not for any philisophical reasons, not because of any Royal Commissions or reports they were pre­ sented with, not by any scientific studies or new facts or data, but in 1979 this courageous administration, Mr.Speaker, decided to drop their spray programme for one single reason-because they were afraid, Mr. Speaker, that the public reaction would be too great in this Province and that they would have the ill effects of that brought to the full force during an election campaign. So, so much for great courage, Mr. Speaker.

In 1981, now that they are back in power, Mr. Speaker, we once again see this great courage coming to the forefront. No election this year, Mr. Speaker, not even a possibility, by the looks of it, of the Bellevue by-election,but certainly no general election this year, Mr. Speaker, and once again we see the courage of this great administration coming to the fore­ front. They, once again, as the election is over,have the great courage, Mr. Speaker, to re-institute the spray programme in this Province, Based upon what, Mr. Speaker? How come this year- Why not last year? Why not '79? Why '78? Because, Mr.

Speaker, I submit to Your Honour that if there is anybody on any side of this House who lac~courage, it is.the administration opposite. 9 41 ''I

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 331 EL - 2 MR. F. ROWE: If they had any conviction in '78 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.F. ROWE: - they should have had it in '79, Mr. Speaker. But oh, no~A simple little election cancelled out their great courage and their great philosophy and their great principles. MR. H. BARRETT: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: The hon. member for St. John's - whatever he represents will have the honour of speaking . MR. WARREN: DAC. DAC. He represen~s DAC. MR. H. BARRETT: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: If the han. member wants to speak.he· will get his half hour to speak.

And I \·muld like the han. mem- ber for St. John's to voice his opinions on the forced protection of the St. John's area. So, Mr. Speaker, if the han. the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) wants to get up in this House and accuse the Liberal Opposition o( lacking in courage, he better look a little bit inward at the actions of himself, his own cabinet, his own administration and every single member sitting opposite. If there is anybody lacking courage, Mr.

Speaker, it was the spineless administration opposite who did not have the courage of their convictions to continue on with their spray programme in '78 during an election campaign. MR. F. STAGG: (Inaudible). . The han. member for Stephenv~lle MR. F. ROWE: (F. Stagg) can look in Beauchesne all he likes. Now, Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, 842 •·t ''I 't

i·!a:::- ch 12, 1981 Tape No. 331 EL - 3 t·lR. ST.:I.GG: A point o= order, ar . Speaker . :>1R . SPEAKER (Butt ): A point of order , the hon. ~embe:::- for Stephenville. HR . STAGG: :>!r.Speaker, in Beauchesne, page 110, ·spineless' is unparliamentary . ~4R . ROivE : g:::-ea!: ap ology . SOME HON. M&~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: HR . ?. RmVE : MR . SPEAKER: ce Verde . MR . ROWE: I withdraw, Mr . Speaker, wi th a Oh, oh ! The hon . member has withdrawn. Mr . Speaker, I withdraw,Mr. Speaker . The hon. member for Trinity - Bay ~-tr . Speaker, this bill -to spray or not to spray is :1ot. the question . It. is as simple as that.

Ne did oot need t.his bill to spray in '7 7, we did not need this bill to spray in '78, we die not need this bill or ~~e lack of it to stop ~~e spray in '79 . We did not need the bill decided to spray in '78 - '80, U I ~ ..;'tJ if ~~e •; ., .. '·I .. ,

~·larch 12, 1981 Tape 332 PK - 1 ~·IR. F. ROt.JE: I am sorry- and we certainly do not need this bill to spray in 1981. Mr.3peaker, this government sprays whenever it feels like it. The record speaks for itself. 'fR. TULK: One year in five. Z-IR. F. ROI'I'E: So this bill has nothing to do as to whether or not the government has the right or has any intention to spray. They have sprayed without this bill. They have cancelled the spray with or without this bill. And now they are corning in on the basis of a Royal Commission report, which is a well-done report,I might add, Mr. Speaker, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible}.

MR. F. ROWE: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ~F.. F • ROI'l'E : Look,if the hon. member is concerned about my health, Mr. Speaker, I will admit to him that I am tightening my belt because I had oral surgery four weeks ago, five weeks ago, and I spent four weeks on a liquid diet, soup and juices only, and I happened to lose a bit of weight, and I am now tightening my belt, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): Order, please! HR. F. ROWE: Now,Mr. Speaker, I wish the hon. member - SOME HON. MEMEERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. •F.

ROWE: - wnuld have suffered the same fate for the last four weeks of not being able to speak,and that would happen to him the next four weeks. M"R. HANCOCK: It would have killed him. 9 ' ' '+'+ .. , ''I

:-larch 12, 1981 Tape 332 PK - 2 11R. STAGG: The hon. member looks better but he does not sound any better. i·!R. F. ROWE: No. I would not expect that I would to the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). Ee does not look any better. Now, Mr. Speaker, this administration had the great courage now to reintroduce the spray programme based on the principles and the recommendations contained in this Royal Commission on Forest Protection and Manage- ment re?Jrt, written by three notable citizens of this Province 7 and it is an excellent report, Mr. Speaker. But the only thing this report does, Mr.

Speaker, is that it puts in writing and for publication,facts and figures that this administration were a~"are of in 1978 and 1979. All of this information was known to the administration and to the Cabinet and to government members and members on this side in 1978 and 1979. It was known to them. So I ask the basic question; why did they cancel the spray programme in 1979 and wait until 1981 to reintroduce the programme? I think the facts speak for themselves, Mr.

Speaker, They did not have the courage to spray in 1979 because of the provincial election, and they have the great courage now, using this Royal Commission report as the excuse, and if n~cessary, Mr. Speaker, if the public resentment is great enough and strong engugh,I would submit that they would use this Royal Commission repo.rt as the sc .apegoat for the introduction - and if anything went wrong with it- for the introduction of the spray programme. As excellent as this is, Mr.

Speaker, this rep~rt, it was set up solely to lift the government out of trouble, give them a crutch, and an excuse, and a reason for reintroducing the spray programme. 9 I r: '-IJ It is as simple as ''j •. i ''I

:>!a:.-ch 12, 1981 :.J?.. . F . RO toiE : Nr . Speaker . Tape 332 PK - 3 that . And it \vas totally unnecessary , Totally unnece ssary. Although it is a good report it Has not necessary for this administration to introduce the spray programme . ~ow , Hr . Speaker , let us look at spraying , ~;hich has not hing ~o do with t.his bill except coinciden~ally, because . I repeat, ~lr . Speaker, this government sprays \vhenever it likes , sprays what and when it likes, as history has sho\om . But let us look at the situation 1vith respect to s~raying . :·lr .

Speaker, there are two sides to the coin here : there is the environment, and by the environment "'e are t~<ing about human beings , vegetation , animals in the forest , ~ak.es and streams, the bogs, the air, ~;hat have you . There is the protection of tne environment to be considered . And having been a science teacher in schools,and having taught science at the University, I am well a1o1are of the problems associated with any insecticide that is sprayed in ~is Provir.ce . We simply do not kno1v the long - te~ effects of chemicals on the forests, on the animals, on the shrubbery, 9~0 ., ''1 ''1

March 12 , 1981 Tape 333 EC - 1 MR. F. ROWE: on the streams, in the air, in the what you might call sub-animals, we simply do not know the long-term effects. So there is every right, Mr. Speaker, for certain groups in the Province to be deeply concerned and upset about the spray programme, because we simply do not know what the environmental effects of a spray programme may be in the long or short run. But what we do know, Mr.

Speaker - and this is where it is easy for people ''t to make a decision and where it is easy for me to ma~e a decision and for my colleagues to make a decision - we know one fact certain, that if the forests are not sprayed they will be destroyed by the spruce budworrn. The forests will be destroyed in this Province, hundreds of jobs will be lost, forest fires will start, mills will close down, all the spinoff jobs will cease to exist and 'I we would have an economic disaster in this Province if we did not spray. That is fact certain, Mr. Speaker. We know that. It is simple, it is true.

So it is easy for all hon. members in this House, every one of which on this side so far have come to the conclusion that a spray programme is necessary. And let it not be said that we are against spraying for the protection of the forests of this Province. We reluctantly agree with the spray programme. ''I MR. STAGG: I guess the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) will resign. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the difference between a P.C. and a Liberal. We have the capability of changing our minds with changing data and changing evidence,and changing with the times.

But to repeat, Mr. Speaker, we know one fact, that if we do not spray the forests of this Province, they are doomed to destruction by the spruce budworrn - thousands of jobs out the window, hundreds of 947

March 12, 1981 Tape 333 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: thousands of dollars lost, mills closing down, spinoff jobs gone down the tube. The choice is easy, Mr. Speaker, we have to spray. But there is an unknown factor, Mr. Speaker. What are the short-term and long-term effects of matacil and/or any other chemical on the forests, indeed, the shrubbery, indeed, the air, the water, the land, the people, the animals, the insects? What are the long-term effects? We do not know, Mr. Speaker.

So are we to get back to this bill now, which is why we are against this bill 1 one of the reasons why we are against the bill, which has nothing to do with spraying directly - the government can spray when it feels like it. It sprayed in 1977 and 1978 when it did not have this bill. MR. STAGG: all over the place now. MR. F. ROWE: The bon. member is spraying I wish the hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr . Stagg) were under the spray. MR. NEARY: MR. F. ROWE: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. F. ROWE : No, no, we do not wish any harm. My spray, he is talking about. Your spray - oh. Hear, hear~ Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is why we have to argue against this bill, because the unknown factor is what are the long-term effects or the short-term effects upon the total environment. It is unknown. And this bill says that any group that might have some knowledge of chemistry and the environment and biology and who see that something is going wrong with respect to the spray programme- which is not necessarily government, it could be a private co~tractor who is now classified as a Crown agency, can be out there spraying helter-skelter - it comes to the attention of environmentalists and chemists 940 ''I

~:arc h 1:2 , 198 1 Tape 333 EC - 3 MR. F. ROWE: and biologists and doctors and centists and other people interested in the environment that something is going to be drastically wrong and they 949 ''I 'I ''I

C\!arch 12, 1981 Tape No. 334 SD - 1 MR. F. ROWE: do not have the right to an injuction~ Is that correct, Mr. Speaker? Now I understand, Mr. Speaker, the necessity, I understand that there is a short time in which you can spray the forest of this Province, there is a limited time as the spray has to be introduced in order to catch that thing, that spruce budworm. Al.\1 HON. MEMBER: Two weeks. MR • F • R()\•JE : Two weeks, the hon. member informs me. But, Mr.

Speaker, the unknown factor, the great danger of total obliteration of our shrubber~ or of our woodlands 1 or of our forests, or of our waters and lakes and rivers and the animals in them,is still a possibility. And this bills says that if this comes to attention, or if a certain group comes to the conclusion that that is so, they do not have a right to an injunction. But they can go to court, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) says. Sure they can go to court, Mr. Speaker, just like the hon. member is trying to go to court about the offshore oil and gas, about the transmission of power.

We will talk about hmv long it takes things to get settled in court, Mr. Speaker. They have not even got it to court yet, let alone get a settlement on it. And I would submit, Hr. 3peaker, that there are environmentalists, biologists, medical people and what have you who may- I am not saying will- who may, could conceivably discover that this could be a great tragedy because the effects of spraying are unknown in the short and long run. SO~~E HON. ~1FMBEP.S: 0h, oh! !'.!~. 1". ~Ol·'E: Now, Mr.

Speaker, so we leave it in the hands of a bunch of private contractors under the watchful eye of the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.' Power). Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not taking any personal shots at the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, I hope that he is going to make the right decisions, but this bill takes the major decisions respecting such 950 ''I

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 334 SD - 2 MR. F. ROWE: progra~.es out of the broad responsibility of a Cabinet and places it in the little hands of a minister. Now do not tell me, Mr. Speaker, that individuals are not capable of making a gravest error when it comes to the ecology of this Province. I submit that this bill is giving the minister too much power, Mr. Speaker, it is taking out of the hands of the Cabinet.

One could quite easily argue for placing these kinds of decisions in the hands of the members of the House of Assembly 1because I go back to my original point~ we are dealing with an unknown factor and that is the actual effects in the long run and possibly the short run of chemical spraying. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROWE: It is a very serious situation, Mr. Speaker, extremely serious. I am not going to get into the civil liberties bit. M~ .• STAGG: philosophy anvway. MR.

ROWE: You do not agree with that No, it is not that, I cannot get worked up about it, Some of my han. colleagues on both sides can get terribly worked up about it. I believe in civil liberties,but there is more to it than the right of a person to kick up a racket, that is the way hon. members are looking at it over there. They have managed to manoeuvre it and shape it to think that civil liberties are represented by a bunch of characters out there with long hair, unshaven and kicking up a stink. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROWE: M..."R.. STAGG: MR. ROWE: They only think that. That is not civil lib­ Libertarians.

I cannot get that one out because of my jaw, Mr . Speaker- because of civil liberties MR. NEARY: (inaudible) They only think they have 951 •. I •·I

~!arch 12, 1981 '!'ape No . 23-t SD - 3 :•IR . c. ~ONE : - that is no1: ic . iie are talking about a group of peo?le •.-.ho a=e kno\'llecgeable of the environmenc, the chemistry on tha1: environment, lvho are ve::y Cis trubeci about the possibility of somet-"li::g happening bei~g rejected, their ::ights being caken away to stop it be£ore a t=agecy hap9ens . That is what we are talking abc~: . .~~d for the hon. Hiniscer of ~line s and Energy (~~ - Ba::-ry) to suggest that th is can be taken care of by the courts, 1:hat. is like , ~!r . Speaker, well,they are going '::o court a:ter the damage is done .

It is as simole as that . '!.~ . STLO:U.!~G: Tha t. coes not ap?lY only to t:he spray progra;;-~-::e . It a?plies to anything that t~e mini ster wants. c..: .. ..J...J:.. '1 .., .,., "I "1

t-larch 12, 1981 Tape NO. 335 EL - 1 MR. F. ROWE: That is right, l'i'ell, of course p It applies to anything that the minister wants to do relating to the protection of the forests of the Prov- ince from insects and disease. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) they want to start a forest fire. MR. ROWE: That is kind of a stretched· out or extreme example to prove the point. There is simply too much power being placed in the hands of the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (C. Power). It is as simple as that, Mr. Speaker.

And taking away the rights of people in the know to seek a Nrit of injunction against the activities of a group of private contractors being put under a Crown agency for their protection is completely unacceptable. MR. THOMS: They are protecting all their buddies who pay into the Tory coffers. MR. ROWE: '•7hich leads me to the basic ques- tion, Mr. Speaker: Nobody on the opposite side has addressed themselves extensively to the monitoring . programme that will be implemented when this spray programme is activated.

Now, if we are to stop certain people from seeking the right of injunction to basically protect the environment of this Prov- ince and the animals, and the rivers and streams and lakes and air and land and shrubbery and what have you, if they are to be stopped, if they have to give up their right to protect a tragedy from happening environmentally, what has the government done to set up a monitoring programme that will protect the environment against the possible wild behavior of a bunch of private contractors hiding under the protection of a Crown agency? \';that monitoring? As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, one of the principle recommeRdations by the Royal Commission on a c ~ v..Jj ''j ''I

Harch 12, 1981 Tape No. 335 EL - 2 MR. ROWE: Forest Protection and ~anagemen t recommends a monitoring programme. I am looking for it. I cannot find it. One of the recommendations does recommend a monitoring programme. For example, Re­ commendation 13, 'A contingency plan':- this is recornrner..ded, 'A contingency plan to prevent or to contain with any mishaps to personnel or aircraft on the ground or in the air be re­ quired before a permit is issued. The contingency plan should be tested in a simulated exercise to encourage that personnel ensure that personned are familiar with it.' This recommendation, Mr.

Speaker, on second look at it,is a contingency plan to protect or con­ tend with any mishap to personned or aircraft. What about the environment itself, Mr. Speaker? What about the people under these flying aircraft? >vhat about the animals and the fish in the rivers and on the land under the spray programme? What monitoring is going to be done? We have not heard from members opposite, Mr. Speaker, we have not heard any description of what Recommendation ll calls for. MR. HISCOCK: Right on. MR. ROWE: Environmental monitoring, Recomm- endation number ll, Mr. Speaker.

"Environmental monitoring of forest spraying operations be continued and that the environ­ mental monitoring committee established in '77 be reactivated to plan and direct a compreb .ensive environmental programme. Consideration should be given to the feasibility of initiating an air sampling project in and around spray buffer zones as part of investigations on ins2cticide drift. If environmental activities are conducted over a reasonable period of time,and if no important environmental concerns are identified, the programme should be reduced in scale:' 954 ''I ''I .. ,

:-:a::-ch 12, :.9ol ':'ape :-10 . 335 EL - 3 :•!R . ~o: ·iE : Not one word , :·1r . Speaker , !rom ~e:r .bers op?(>si;;e ha•;e I, at: least, heard of the na<.ure and the degree o: the monitoring program.rne that is tc be instituted as a result o: t!'le react:.vation of t:he s;>ray ;>rograrnr::e . Now , •.•e want to hear a little mor e :ie-::a :.l, ':r . Speaker, because '"e have a ne1.; si tuation now ., ~1r . So;eaker , :.~e have a sit: uation where a bunch of private contractors ­ .a::d I have nothing against contrac tors , Mr . Speaker . All con ­ ;;ractors, all business people are out: co make an ho~est pro!it . 9S5 '1 ''l ,.. ·-.

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 336 DW - 1 MR. F. ROWE: There are unforeseens in a spray programme. It j_s not unlikely that some contractors may lose their shir~ or may see themselves losing t~air shirts during the spray programme. And I would submit that then being protected by the shield of a Crown agency is not a healthy one, Mr. Speaker.

It could conceivably encourage, once these private contractors may see the possibility of losing some money or losing their shirts, of doing something during the sp~ay programme, cutting back on certain little safey protections, cutting back on other standards that have been applied,that will do damage to the environment. And our so-called civil libertarians, the protectors of the environment 1 where do they stand? They do not have any rights, Mr. Speaker; they do not even have the right to an injunction but they would only have the right to go to the court after the damage is done. And I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, that hon. members opposite should give serious consideration to that. Now, Mr. SpeakP.r, in closing I will reiterate that it is not this crowd over here who lacks courage, as stated by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). We are supl:)orting a spray programme. We are against the dictatorial powers of this particular bill. It is hon. members opposite who lacked the courage, Mr. Speaker, I repeat,in 1979,when they scrapped the spray programme because they did not have the guts to conduct one during an election campaign. It is as simple as that. MR. F. STAGG: Right. MR. F.

ROWE: The hon. member for Steohenville ("r. ~tacrq) agrees. MR. TULK: And in l98n when they did not want to take the shine off things. 85G .. , ''I .. , .,

!-!arch 12, 19 81 Tape No. 336 DW - 2 MR. F. ROWE : And in 1980 they did not want too be blatent and bold and slap it ri0ht back in in the first month of their election, that Summer, so they waited a year hoping that things would smoothen over and that by this time t:O.eu t·rouln 'lave a nice white report - ~1R. TULK: That is right. fJ1R. F • ROt>JE : - a royal commission coming out Mr. Speaker, that would give the government the rationale for the go ahead. Gump, Mr. Speaker! This was unnecessary. It is a good report, it was not necessary.

The government has shown that it sprays whenever it feels like it, it does not need this legislation. This legislation is only being brought in to aive the minister certain powers that I right­ fully feel he should not be given, any minister.

It should be in the hbnds of ~t least the Cabinet,and I t~ink it is pretty sad when certain people who are knowledgeable of the environment and the chemistry of the en vironment and the biology of the environment do not have the right of injunc­ tion when i~ comes to protecting the environment against hazards, the very deep hazards, because there are unknown factors in a spray programme. So, Mr.

Speaker, I for one,as a bit of an environmentalist and a biologist myself, knowing the hazards of it, the unknown factors, the unknown possibilities, I have r~ sav, since I know what the effects of not sprayina will be-that is, a complete disaster - and knowing that the effects of spraying could be a disaster , I have to vote for spraving as have all of my collea gues stated thus far as they have spoken. J3ut let us hope, Mr.

Speaker, that we will not find ourselves in a position or situation during this coming Summer where we will see evidence that shows that spraying is as disastrous as, say, not spraying. 8~7 .. .. , ''I

:1arch 12 , 1981 Tape No . 336 ow - 3 HR . ::. RO\•IE: That is as simple as that. At ~~is point in ti~e I have to fall on the side of spraying . It is as simple as ~hat - ~1R . DINN : MR . F . ROtVE: this bill . :-IR . DI~ : MR . F. RONE : Are you coming over w~th us? - but that has nothing to do tvith You are going to support the bill? The bill has nothing to do with spraying . The hon . minister was not even in the House when I was talking about i c. £-1r . Speaker, did the hon. Ministe r of Forestry i:1 his day, this was be=ore he t.;ent to compensation, did he need this bill to spray the forests?

The answer is 'N-o', No , he did not need thi s bill . So, Mr . Speaker , for that reason I am against the principle of this bill :.!.R . C . POI\ER : (Inaudible). ~1R . F. RO\\E : Here he goes now . We just got a new organism come into the House , Mr . Speaker , who did not hear what I had to say - AN HON . ME."1BER : Humanoid. 950 .•. , .. ., ''l •·;

:·la::-ch 12, 1981 Tape 337 EC - l HR. F. ROHE: ;{umanoid organism. The Minister of Hines and Energy (Mr. Barry), I think I got him straightened out, but now I have to start all over again with the leave of the House to try to straighten out the ~~nister of Forest Resources and Lands (~·lr. Power) , ~1r. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for the sake of the Province and the people and the animals in it, if I can carry it that far, I do wish the minister luck in his spray progra~~e, but I cannot see the need for him to bring in this particular bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sm,!E HON. MEMB .ERS: Hear, hear! !>!R.

SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the member for St. John's Centre. DR. McNICHOLAS : Monsieur le President et mes chers amis distingue, ~n vue de notre cour de Francais, je decide de vous address en Francais. Aujordhui je parle de la tourdeuse. I thought, Mr. Speaker, I would take this opport~nity of introducing my remarks in French as an indication of my gratitude to the Speaker for the opportunity he is giving us on both sides to improve our French in the evening. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

McNICHOLAS: I am sure that 1 a tourdeuse could not care less whether I speak in French or English, but we have had la tourdeuse around since the Ice Age and there is a competition between la tourdeuse and the forests that, from what I have read about the spruce budworm, is an ongoi~g thing that every fifty to seventy years the trees mature. They are attacked by lu tourdeuse .3S9 '·I ''I

March 12, 1981 Tape 337 EC - 2 DR. McNICHOLAS: and they are completely wiped out and will start again as seedlings. And surely, the whole purpose of this spraying programme is to break that cycle. As we know, there is roughly a fifth of the forests here in Newfoundland that are already dead or dying from the spruce budworrn and I do not believe any responsible person would or could accept this condition getting worse. Now, some members of the Opposition have said that the government did not have the courage to carry on this programme in 1979. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the present government showed great courage in 1979. As you know well, there was a lot of agitation by environrnentalists,and my own medical profession in 1978 appointed a special committee to look into the medical aspects and the hazards of a spray programme. But, Mr. Speaker, what did they come in with? I can tell you what they carne in with. Their recommendations just sat on the fence.

Their first recommendation was: "The Newfoundland Medical Association states that it is not opposed to the current short-term forest spray programme with arninocarb." Now, their second recommendation, they have certainly sat on the fence even more so. They said, "Any decision to conduct a forest aerial spray programme in the Province must be made by the provincial government, with whom, in the final analysis, the responsibility must remain." Now, Mr.

Speaker, in view of that report and reports of environmentalists, this government responded very soberly and correctly and they appointed a Royal Commission, and that is why we did not have a spray programme in 1979. We were waiting for their report, and their report was that we should spray. Now, addressing this particular legislation, I think it has been said by members on both 960 ' "I '·I '"I .. ,

March 12, 1981 Tape 337 EC - 3 DR. McNICHOLAS: sides that there is a critical phase in the spraying, that is about a ten-day period. If you do not spray during that period you might as well forget about it. And the reason for this legislation is in case some, 9 G 1 ·· . ..

Narch 12, 1981 Tape 338 PK - 1 DR. :MCNICHOLAS: you might call them crackpots or they might have the best intentions in the world, but if they get an injunction during that ten day period it means that we can forget about the programme for another year and there will be so much more of our forest destroyed. We are talking about $3 million or $4 million . I think the present government and the ministerare going to deal with this in a responsible way. Anybody who feels that they have suf~ered,the courts are still there for them to seek damages.

And I am sure that the government will supervise the spray programme in a responsible way to safeguard our water supply, our health, and any other health hazard that might arise. SO:ME HON. :ME:MBERS: HR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): MR. HISCOCK: Thank you. Hear, hear! The han. member for Eagle River. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

By reading this legislation, the point that I am rather concerned with in this legislation is having to bring in this injunction is my main concern with the legislation, having to bring in an injunction to stop a group of people or a town council or anv "~aun who feels that it is in their constitutional civil libertarian rights. This government in its wisdom 1 or lack of wisdom I would suggest,have decided . to bring in this piece of legislation that provides against having an injunction.

I find it repugnant, I find it most alarming against a democratic process that we are used to in this country of Canada and the British Commonwealth. I cannot understand why we did not have this in 1977, I cannot understand why we did not have it in_ 1978. The former speaker who stood up mentioned that back 952 .. , ., ..

::a:::-ch 12, 1981 Tape 338 PK - 2 ::R. HISCOCt\ : in 1978 we had the study of the medical profession to recommend 1-1ha t should be done, and 'de were told they sat on the fence. \IJell,the government sprayed 7 they did not sit on the fence 1 t:,ey sprayed that year even though the medical profession was sitting on the fence. ~!!:'.. ':'ULK: The doctors did not suppcrt long-term S?raying . "lR. HISCOCK: But what did they do? And as the :nember for Fogo (~1r. Tulk) pointed out,the medical profession did give the agreement that it would be short-term, they would support spraying.

But in 1979, did the government sit on the fence? Did they listen to the reco~~endation of the Medical Association? No,they did not.

Just because they came back from a fresh election, and as it was pointed out in this, because of the environment~li~ts I find what really is a little bit interesting now that we have this government that is so, so, so concerned, and so compassionate with regard to the individual rights of the citizens of this Province, that they turn around and say that they are going to spray, and not only are the:· going to spray but f:h.~" are going to continue to spray on the long-terrr i~regardless of the consequences. I ask this House, Mr. Speaker, and we have the Premier who states that he is a great man of history !1R.

STAGG: The best man in Newfoundland . "lR. HISCOCK: - and maybe the best man in ~ewfoundland. But how many years ago was it that the miners went down into the mines in St. Lavnence and the only safety or health precaution they had was their own lives. They had no government regulations. ~1R. PATTERSON: That \vas the Liberal Government . .. I 8 G 'J

~!arch 12 , 1981 Tape 338 PK - 3 ~1R. HISCOC;< : Dn'l's it matter \olhat gover:'l!nent it '"as: The main emphasis there was that we needed jobs, jobs at all cost, Z1r . Speaker , jobs at the de triment of the health of the citizens of this Province . We cannot afford not to have jobs because we have high unemployment . We caunot a::ord to !'-.ave disease, \vhetber it comes fluorspar in St. Lawrence or the dust levels in Labrador City , or the asbestos in the drinking water down in Baie Verte, Mr. Speaker . We find that we are in a Province, and in a civilization, ~1r .

Speaker, that,because we need to pay for our cost of living , because we need to live , \Je are now doing away and digging ourselves slO\olly, slowly into t~e grave because we need jobs that 964 '1 ''i ,., '1 ,.

March 12, 1981, Tape 339, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: we are a have-not Province or a Province that finds itself in a situation where we cannot have the luxury of closing the mine in Baie Verte because of the problems with environmentalists and pollution and that we cannot afford to turn around and close.the mine or put pressure on the Iron Ore Company of Canada to upgrade it because, no, the Iron Ore Company of Canada will turn around and say, 'Well, we will close and we will go to Brazil," whish as larger mines, or Australia. So, Mr.

Speaker, we have a situation now which is Catch 22, a situation where if we do not spray we are going to be out of jobs. If we do spray, we are told that these environmentalists, these misguided people, these crackpots - and one of the largest councils in the area, Gander, is made up of crackpots and environmentalists. And anybody who would want to get an injunction - AN HON. MEMBER: Who said they "'~ere crackpots? MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. HISCOCK: But, Mr.

Speaker - Order, please! - to turn around and have a civilization where we are digging ourselves slowly into the grave does not say very much for the new 'Step Forward into the '80s.' It does not say very, very much about the quality of life. Not only about the quality of life, Mr. Speaker, but the arrogance. We heard this government say time and time again, 'the arrogance of the Prime Minister'. How arrogant can you get?- a government which turns around and will not even let its citizenry have their rightful right of due process of the law.

Is it that they have no faith in the courts, that the courts cannot, themselves, decide who is misguided, who is serious when they bring this in and ask for an injunction? 955 .. . .. , .. '

March 12, 1981, Tape 339, Page 2 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: Do the courts automatically give an injunction to anybody who comes forward and asks for an injunction? I would say no, Mr.Speaker. MR. HANCOCK: That is what the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) would have you believe. MR. HISCOCK: The President of the Council would like to believe that this Province is Tory. He would like for us to believe a lot of other things. But I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I do not follow the views of the President of the Council.

He would also like to feel that the onlypersonswho can speak for anybody in this Province now are the members on the government side. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that this legislation does not come back to haunt this administration just like the legisation that was brought in to open up the mines down in St. Lawrence came back to haunt the Liberal administration. Also, now, we have problems with dust problems in Labrador City and down in Baie Verte. So, Mr. Speaker, surely, the Premier is always saying we must learn from our past.

Well, we as Newfoundlanders are no longer going to follow the ways of the past, short-term gains. We are no longer after short-term gains. Mr. Speaker, as was pointed out earlier with regard to the Year of the Disabled - MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) . MR. HISCOCK: If the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) wants to speak, then I will let him speak after I am finished. I would ask for the guidance and protection of the Chair, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 8GG •·, .. , .. '

'"I March 12, 1981, Tape 339, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I am rather concerned about this spraying but I also feel that as elected members we have to do certain things in this House from time to time that are not ' "I politically expedient, and that may include this spraying. We all know how important forest related jobs are to the economy. Surely, Mr.

Speaker, this government, with regard to the environmentalists they called them a bunch of crackpots, did not have to go with this report, that if the government turned around and sprayed in 1977 and 1978, then they can spray again .. in 1979, 1980 and 1981, whatever. Mr. Speaker, I ask, torl-Jv do we need this Fascist legislation? And I say Fascistlegislation because anybody who denies the right of the population to their duly elected people, ~nd not allow the people of this Province to express their constitutional rights. We hear the Premier talking about the constitutional rights and about the overlapping.

We saw grand stand on the Labrador boundary which is not '·I even in question in Labrador. We have seen him with regard to the problems with denominational education as a constitutional right. But he does not turn around and say that he is taking away 9 ,. -o I .. ,

~rarch 12, 1981 Tape No. 340 EL - l 1·IR. HISCOCK: the constitutional rights to go before the courts and ask for an injunction. Asking for an in- junction, Mr. Speaker, is quite different from getting one ,"\nd I have fa.i th in our courts and in our judges Even though some of them may be political appointments from time to time, I still have more faith in them because once they are appointed I feel that they put themselves above politics. But, Mr. Speaker, I find, as I said this legislation extremely repugnant and I think that if the government had any wisdom they would take it down.

Another question I asked is why is it· that they saddled the present "''inister of Forestry (C. Power) with it? Is it because, now,only the Premier thinks he is the best in the Province? Is it that he wants to go on and have a legacy of thirty, fortv. fifty years_and that the best thing he can do now is destroy any opposition around him? Is it that he looks upon the Minister of Forestry as an up and coming young minister behind him, and he has to snuff him in the bud before he gets a chance, Mr. Speaker, the same way that he ended up trying to nip the Minister of Energy (L.

Barry) with regard to taking the credit for· the ERC'O bill when the Hin- ister of ~1ines and Energy had \vorked so hard on it. We see here, L'!r. Speaker, a one man government, we see here a government that has been surrounded by elderly Cabinet Ministers of the former administration. And when we have a young and upcoming member of this House,and a credit to the House. what do we see? We see them bringing in, as I said, Facist leg- islation which is quite contrary to the intellect of the minister and I ask why is it that it was not brought in before? Why was it not brought in before? Ll :· r. uwU '"I .., ..

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 340 EL - 2 MR. HISCOCK: And so, Mr. Speaker, with regard to this legislation, I am particularly concerned about it.And as the member from Trinity - Bay de Verde (F.Rowe) pointed out, this will be carried out by private operators and if the private operators, for various reasons,decide not that they are going to lose their shirts but 1 take it to the other extreme, they want to make a quick buck, they can turn around and just drop it. I have known of cases in New Brunswick where they had a reforestation project and they did it on a contractoral basis.

They had the students, or various people employed, go out with a full box of young seedlings and cret credit for planting them whenall they do is dump them, and then go out with another one - in New Brunswick. In Newfoundland, I think we have some­ thing like seventy per cent, eighty per cent production of our seedlings, where in New Brunswick it is far below that. So, Mr.

Speaker, if we have these private enterprise people, who because of greed, want to turn around and make a quick buck, we can find them in a situation where tneyprobably can dump too much of the spray in one area and then come back for another load, and come back for another load. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! If the hon. member would permit me to interupt him while he is catching his breath, I can announce now, although it is not quite five o'clock, that I have received notice of three motions for debate at five thirty, when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House.

First, notice is given by the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (F.Rowe) arising out of a question asked the Minister of Education (L. Verge), and the subject matter is introduction of Grade XII, a revised high school programme. 959 .. , ..

Y!arch 12, 1981 Tape No . 340 EL - 3 )L~ . S?~~KER (Simms} : The second notice given by the hon . the rna~er for Eagle River (E. Hiscock} arising out of a ques - tion asked the hon . the Ninister of Education (L. Verge), and the subject matter is Grade XII . And the third ~ otice given by the hon . ma~er !or Grand Bank (~ . Thorns) arising ouc of a question asked the :01inister of Fisheries (J . Morgan) anc the subject matter is the bait holding unit at St. Lawrence . The hon . memb er for Eagle River . MR . HISCOCK : Mr .

Speaker, and as I said, if we have a company :4hich \'olants to make a quick buck, they can turn around and take all the spray and dtL~o it and then go on bac~ for mo re, th.ereby , probably , getti :'lc; paid on a contractu al basis ::or t.'le number of loads of spray or the quant it y of spray. 1\'e do not see in this piece of legislation -and again I say that the pre ss is totally irresponsible in thi s matter - we see now in our Province, and as I said, this was th e concern that I pointed out , we 9i0 •· ''l , ~ I ,,

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 341 SD - 1 MR. E. HISCOC!<: have a co~~ittee set up, a Select Committee of this House, to go around and look at the renewable resources and to then set up a fund. ~-1R. STAGG: Non-renewable resources. MR. HISCOCK: - non-renewable :cesources- to set up a fund and look at this problem. l>-nd now He are bringing in legislation and we are going to get into spraying and we do not even know the effects that this is going to nave. Here is the media giving that type of cornmittee,and will give that committee . all types of publicity and the reason, L'lr.

Speaker, we have it is to give the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) area all the publicity. VIle find ourselves in a situation because the industry here in this Province anc-:he people depend so much on these jobs for a living tha~ we find that the press and the mass population of the Island are probably saying, 'look, we do not want to hear about not spraying, we do not want to hear about spraying, go ahead and do it, we have to save the forests·. So what we are dcing, Hr. Speaker, we are throwing out the baby 1vi th the b.' ':h water.

We may find ourselves in six, seven or ten year= ·~nd I hope that the ministers of this government and the !'nember for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) can say in fifteen ·~~rs time, we were right by having this legislation. And the spray, Mr. Speaker, now will be matacil. But ~lew Bruns•tlick has proven that after you spray with one type, insects become immune to it and then you have to spray harder and harder chemicals. So, Mr. Speaker, we do not know what 1ve ,.,i 11 be doing in ten or fifteen years time.

And I think that the press is being irresponsible from the point of view that the majority of the people are fed up about whether to spray or not to spray, v1ith the Royal Corn.rnission and the Medical Commission on it and the loss of jobs. But surely, vir. Speaker, we should have from this government a commitmentas to how this programme is goinq to be !'nonitored a-- 1 u I I How are ,,.,e .. •

March 12, 1981 Tape No. 341 so - 2 MR. HISCOCK: going to monitor these companies? How are we going to be checking on them? So, Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of danger in this legislation, too much danger and the Opposition, having the courage to turn around and point out this, is also taking on the government from the point of view of exactly the way the government works. Just because we turn around and talk about this piece of legislation and ask that this injunction clause be taken away, what are all the government members doing >Jhen they get up?

Are they addre.ssing this injunction clause, this legislation that is taking away their rights? Are they addressing the part of the legislation that is not good enough with regard to the im~lementing of the programme, the spray programme and the precautions? No, they are not. ~..r. Speaker, they are addressing that the Liberals are against spraying. That is all they are saying. That is their concern for the population, the population of this Province here, the Liberals are against spraying. That is all they feel that they can - and, do you know what?

The press itself,because it is really almost a dead issue now, the press itself it completely ignoring the cry or the plea from the Opposition by basically saying, "Look, do away \'lith this part of the legislation. Bring in stronger regulations so that we know . and the people of this Province know, that it is going to be monitored well and allow the courts to take their rightful situation in this country. So, Mr. Speaker, I am extremely concerned about this legislation.

I am concerned about the arrogance of this government, that they are not concerned with setting up a select committee on the cost of li ving in this Province. They are not concerned about setting up a study into the high cost of oil and related products on the Coast of Labrador. They are not concerned with having an enquiry QJ'i u I <.. •. I ''I .. , .. ,

:': . .cc~ . ~ ~~, 2.981 T3.pe :\ro. 3~1 IB-3 _·l.:"~. ::r.scoc=~: i~to t~e ~est of electricity . - ' - 2.:1 .:...a.oz:-aocr. They are not co~ce~ned a~out the group homes i~ t~is Province. But ~hen they want to get behind a sensitive issue, ~~he~ they are afraid and they ~ave not got ··, ~he intestional forti~uCe to co~e a~d stand on their feet ''I :: i '

._, .'1arch 12, 1981 Tane No. 342 GS - 1 M.'<.. HISCOCK: and say, "The people of Newfound- land and Labrador, you have elected us and we will stand by the decision, and we will spray. And if that means tha.t we will lose members or lose the government then, in our judgement, we will do it. " ltli th regard to the Royal Commission on Fisheries, why is it that they had a Royal Commission on Fisheries after it was recommended several years ago that they have one? Why is it they had one? It was only, Mr. Speaker, because of the strike.

It was only the strike of last year, and this government was so embarrassed by their stand in this strike that they figured that the only way that they could turn around and get out of this problem was to go and hide behind a royal commission. So, ~1r. Speaker, when this Opposition points out the need for a commission, or a need for a Select Committee, because we recommend them in the House, the Opposition, we do not get them. But if we cross the House and go on the government side, our Select Committee is recognized, not only recognized in that way but, also - MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) . MR. THOMS: ~R.

HISCOCK: That was a small Price to pay for it. - what do you expect from the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter)? That is it exactly, what do you expect? You not only have a Fascist piece of legislation but there are people probably on that government side who would probably like to have all Fascist tendencies, not only going around with their little flags and their little medals, but the next thing we will be saluting. So I am saying, Mr. Speaker, if you allow the extreme element of the Conservative party of the govern­ ment to take its role, th~n I tell you, ~·1r.

Speaker, we would be clicking our heels quite fast, quite fast. 974 '·I "I ''I ••. f',i

~-1ar ch 12 , 19 81 Tape No. 342 GS - 2 MR. HISCOCK: I would say, Mr. Speaker, if this is a government and if this is a House of Assembly of the peoole of Newfoundland and Labrador,that we respect their '"ishes, and if '"e bring in a resolution asking for a Select Committee ,it should be looked at from the point of view of relevancy to this Province and the enhancement of a better ~ualitv of life for our oeople, not what political stripe or political side it comes from, Mr. Speaker. Surely, surelv, Mr.

Speaker, in stepping into the eighties we did not ever think that we would have a government led by people so narrow-minded as to think that because it is recommended by the Opposition side, they have to defeat it. Mr. Speaker, surely not. Surely, Mr. Speaker, we have a government that is wise, that is led by some of the best intellectual men in this Province and that they are big enough to turn around and see what criticisms are due and respect Her Majesty's Opposition in doing its job and doing its rightful job. Surely, Mr. Speaker, we have not got a government that is narrow-minded in that way.

Surely we do not have a govern