Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 33B (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-33b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 8:00 p.m. THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY of MANITOB A Tuesday, April 5, 19 77 CO NCURREN T COM MITTEE OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - HIG HWAYS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Order please. We have a quorum, gentlemen. The Comm ittee will come to order. I woul d refer the attention of honourable mem bers to Page 37 in their Estimates Boo k. Reso lution 71. Constru ction of Provincial Trunk Highways, Provin cial Roads and Related Projects. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we shut down at the supper hour, Mr.

Chairman, I was speakin g of the road from No. 10 to Pelican Rapids and it's a matter that's very very close to my heart and has been for a lon g time and as I said at that time, I wasn't goin g to thresh old straw and the Min ister took the occasion as we were walkin g down the hall to men tion to me that the matter had been discussed last night to a large degr ee and that I appreciate and I thank my colleague for bringin g it to the attention of the Comm ittee. But last night, Mr. Chairman, we were talkin g about mainten ance; I'm talkin g about construction.

That road has been crying out loud for attention for a good man y years and it may be called a bush road and it may be classified as a bush road but I suggest to you that that commun ity is not gettin g any small er. The province has spent hun dreds of thousands of dollar s in the buildin g of school accommodation for the you ng people there. It's a spendin g hundreds of thousands of do llars in commun ity housing.

It's a commun ity that is there to stay and the sooner this governmen t or the Federal Governmen t or both together realize that they have a responsibility to give those people at least security and safety on that twen ty miles on Highway No. 10, the better it's goin g to be. I listened to the figur es that the Min ister gave out a little earlier- or at least before the supper hour - and I noticed with some surprise, I'm not goin g to question the fig ures, but I noticed with some surprise, that our district, the district which I represent, was the small est throug hout the province.

Obviously that means less expenditur e on our highway system. Now, Mr. Chairman, to go away from that if I may, in that particular area Mafekin g into Pelican Rapids, up to Barrows and Westgate, I sugge st to the Minister that there is no way he is accom moda ting that area with the equipmen t that he has got in there.

The men do their level best with what they have, and it is not enough and it's what, forty-five, fifty-five miles from your yard in Swan River, and it's a neglected area, brings me to Highway No. 277, and the Min ister has been prevailed upon - I wrote him last December and I am not goin g to quote that letter to you, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, he's had it, he's gon e over it, and I thought that together with the attachmen ts by people throug hout that area, Mafekin g, Birch River and Swan River supported what I had to say or I supported what they had to say, and I was amazed to fin d that highway construction program for Manitoba did not include in any way, any shape or form whatsoever, any expenditur e for the upgrad ing of Highway 277. That is not a provin cial road, Mr. Chairman, that is a recognized highway on the map, and what have we got , what have we got, a dirt road half of the time.

People up and down that road all the way to the Saskatchewan border and the Minister knows this, I don 't have to tell him ... A MEMBER: . The third Trans Canada Highway, isn't it? MR. BILTON: It could be.

In my humble opin ion it should be the highway that belon gs to the Yellowhead , and as I pointed out in my letter last December to the Min ister that there was arran gemen ts years ago when this province punched through that highway to serve those people, and on to Hudson Bay Junction, that the Saskatchewan Governmen t from the Manitoba provincial border, proposed to put in black top all the way and they did, and what did we do. And, Mr.

Min ister, the traff ic down that road - I don't know if we have a traffic count or not to em barrass me, you may have, but I doubt it very much because you haven't paid that much attention to that particular area. In the beginning a wonder ful road was built and every sprin g and for a large part of the sprin g it is almost impassable.

School buses are used, a great deal of timber is hauled out of that country, and it's the access to Saskatchewan in that particular area into Hudson Bay Jun ction and thousands of tourists come through there, and the Min ister has totally ign ored, totally ignored the appeal of the people that gave him the informa tion in good enough time. And this just didn 't happen this year, Mr. Min ister.

Almost from the day you went into office, and prior to that if I may say so, you have been asked to do someth ing about that road, and I would be remiss if I didn 't emp hasize with everythin g that's within me, on behalf of the people alon g that road and the four or five or six commun ities, to appeal to you on their behalf to reconsider your Estimates and do somethin g to bring that road up to reason able standards to satisfy those people. Thank you very much. · MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: ... off, Mr. Chairman' was that before the supper hour?

It's okay, ca rry on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. 16 27

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 MR. ADAM: Yes, I just was goin g to pass but I had on e question to ask the Min ister before the supper hour in answer to a question that we asked yesterday. The Min ister indicated that the East Waterhen Road was a respon sibility of the provin ce, I'm just wonderi ng why it is not shown on the map? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, there is no nu mber on it, as I under stan d it is just a main mark et road in the local governmen t district.

There is no nu mber on it, it's not a PR but as far as the jurisd iction is concerned with the maintenance and the likes, it falls under provincal author ity. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourabl e Member for Portage La Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, unde r this item, it relates to some questions I inquired of the various Ministers in the House last week, and that is: what steps does the Departmen t of Highways take when they are constructin g new roads where they consider the environmen tal impact on the particular area?

I can sugge st to you two areas where I have a little bit of concern: on e is that a few years ago a change in the road was made through the Delta Marshes to Delta, and while we appreciate in that area havin g a decen t road, there was a good road bed there but a change was made, linked together with the fact that the Portage diversion caused a change in the flow in the Delta Marshes. What I wo uld lik e to know before your departmen t undertakes any particular construction, what consideration is given to the habitat, the wildl ife, the people who live alon g the routes, and so on.

The other case which I feel I was badly misrepresented by the Min ister of Northern Affairs when I enquired about what had been don e about studyin g the environmen tal impact with relation to the proposed road between The Pas and Moose Lake, which we all know is heavily financed by the Federal Governmen t under the North lands Agreement. So I would like to kn ow if the Minister could tell us what his departmen t does when the_ new construction is proposed, relating to the problems that I have just mentioned. MR. BURTNIAK: Well' Mr.

Chairman, usually where the environmen tal impact studies are carried out, in the referen ce made by the Member for Portage, in that particular area, we do liaise with the Departmen t of Mines and Natural Resou rces. Through that de partmen t, certain studies are made and certain in forma tion is given, through the Department of Mines and Resources. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, excuse me ... MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Does the honou rable member have a point of order? MR. BILTON: Yes, I do, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the point of order? MR.

BILTON: With all due respect to the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, I put question s to the Min ister, and he chose to answer his question s first. Why are my question s not being answered? MR. CHAIRMAN: I don 't believe that is a point of order. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, in order to resolve this, if the Minister would answer the Member for Swan River, I yield. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, if the Honourable Member for Swan River is anxious about an answer' I was not ign orin g his points that he made.

I was goin g to deal with the answers to the question s that the memb er posed later on, before we leave this item and move on to the Motor Vehicle Branch. However, the hon ourable memb er was talkin g, first of all, about the road to Pelican Rapids, and I appreciate his com men ts on that. We did deal with that item last night, in the absence of the hon ourable member because of his being in the other comm ittee, I presume. That was quite fully discussed, I thin k. I gave my views and my opin ion s on that particular situation.

In regard to 277, I believe it is, the memb er was quite proud to say that that road was punched throug h, an excellent road. If it was an excellent road, I don 't kn ow what the hon ourable memb er wants us to do now. It's a gravel road, as the member said , and there are several other areas in the provin ce that we would like to perhaps move in and construct or reconstruct some of these roads. We get requests from time to time in various areas. East of Lake Winni peg, we have requests for that area, and a few others_ You just can't do these thin gs.

You have to set your priorities and the priorities have been set. Somebody has to be left out. Personally, Mr. Chairman, I woul d like to see all roads paved in the province of Manitoba' just like the Honourable Member for Swan River. But he knows dam n well, as well as I do, we can't afford to do that. And what we try to do is to service the people to the best of our ability over the past years' as the mem bers in opposition tried to do when they were the governmen t. And I can remind my honou rable friend, when he talks about 277, I can tell him a story about No. 20.

When I was not in this House, a main road leading from Dauphin on to No. 10 to Cowan, when you want to talk about a Burma road , Mr. Chairman, that was the Burma road of the worst kind, where tractors were stuck durin g the term 16 28

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 of office of the Conservative Government. I was not a memb er of the gove rn ment at the time. I was not a mem ber of the Legislature. But for years we tried, I travelled that road every day, and we had busted tires and radiators and all that, and you know when it was done? When I came to this office and I finally got the road for them, which was definitely needed . I think that was a much mor e important road, and far be it from me to knock this road down and say, "I t's not important".

But I can tell my honour able friend that No. 20 was a heck of a lot more travelled and connected more areas than 277. It took us many, many years before we were able to do it. You people, when you were in government, would n't even pay any attention to us when we asked and then dema nded that some thing be do ne. Therefore, as I say, when we set our priorities every year, if we see that money is available and our priorities allow us to fix those roads or the road that the memb er is saying was 277, we will do so.

But until such time as we feel that it's perhaps not in the highest priority for this particular year, we have a three year program now, as I was telling the honour able mem bers last nigh t. If it's not in the program this year, it may be next year or the fo llowing year. But this year we're not able to put it in the prog ram. That doesn't mean that we're no t ever going to do anythin g about it. But our priorities have indi cated that we were not able to do that particular road, or do anyth ing to it, like the Pelican Rapids or any other roads. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie. MR'.

BILTON: No, no' Mr. Chairman, surely you're going to give me the oppor tun ity to reply to what the Min ister has said. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. All mem bers will be given the opportun ity to have their say on this particular item. The Chair recognizes the Honour able Memberf or Portage la Prairie. MR. BLAKE: On the same point of order ... MR. CHAIRMAN: There was no point of order. Does the Honour able Member for Min nedosa have one? MR.

BLAKE: Yes, on a point of order, it would appear in a meeting we had with Public Util ities a week ago, that when we were on one particular topic, the feeling was that we should finish that particular topic , and we are deal ing with a particular road now. I'm sure when the Member for Swan River has his say and the Minister replies, if he wishes, that will be the end of that particular topic, and won't have to belabour it any further, and then we can move on to the Member for Portage's question and get rid of those. MR.

CHAIRMAN: That is usually the way that thing s are handled, when the Minister replies directly to a member , that the Chair then recogniz es the member again. However' we had got away from that, and the Chair had recogn ized the Member for Portage la Prairie. The Chair will allow the Member for Portage la Prairie to ask his questions and then go back to the Member for Swan River. The Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Thank you. Mr.

Chairman , through you to the Min ister, I wo uld like some clarification with respect to the road that is being built under the Nor th lands Agreement from The Pas to Moose Lake. I und erstand that the funding is mainly from the Government of Canada through the Nor thlands Agreement. Well, if the mem bers who are muttering so much want the floor, I'll give it to them, but I was allowed ... - (Inte rjection) - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. BI LTON: I've never heard anythin g like it in all my life. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Okay, take the floor. Go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

Would honour able mem bers direct their remarks to the Chair and not to each other. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Roblin on a point of order. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I find it very difficult to under stand why the rules have been change d ton ight in this committee. Up until ton ight, any memb er of the comm ittee that raised a question, the Min ister replied to that particular mem ber, and then when that debate was over, we moved on.

For some unf oreseen reason ton ight, the rules are changed, and I think there's been three mem bers question the Min ister - and I have no quarrel with that - and the Min ister will reply. But why have the rules been changed? Does the Min ister now want us to lump a whole bunch of questions together? If that's the way he wants them , that's fair ball. But up until tonight, Mr. Chairman, it's been a debate. Whoever questioned the Chair, the reply went on, and we solved that item and then moved on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: On the same point of order, Mr.

Chairman, I don' t think the rules have been changed. The honour able memb er interrupted the Member for Portage, and dema nded a reply from the Min ister, and as far as the Min ister is concerned, he gave that reply, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order ple ase. The Chair is not aware that the rules have been changed. The 1629

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 Min ister can choose to reply or choose not to reply at any time. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. Bll TON: Mr. Chairman, I came to this committee with something in my hand that has been the plague of my life for seven years, and I've done my utmost on behalf of those people. I came here sincerely and hon estly, with the thought of trying to do someth ing for the people I represent in that particular area, which is my "n o man's land". And what did I get from the Min ister? Noth ing but arrogance.

He as much as told me that I made the comment that "an excellent road has been punched through in that area", and I said that in general terms. He grasped that and endea voured to ridicule what I was end eavourin g to say and do on behalf of those people. He knows, Mr. Chairman, as well as I do, down through the years those people have been punished with their automobile s, their vehicles, and everything that's travelled over that road in certain season s of the year. And he and his off icials and his department are capable of remed yin g that and that's all I endeavoured to say.

I not ice with a great deal of interest that as far as his own constituency is concerned, if I dare to get personal as he did with me in a most irrational way because he happens to sit in the dr iver's seat, that Dauphin is going short of noth ing and up in my particular territory In dian people, who also pay taxes, poor people whose children are traversed from one point to another over this dastardly road at certain times of the year, all I was ende avouring to do was to ask him to improve that condition. He mentione d that a discussion went on last night about the Pelican Rapids road.

He refused, he refused to acquaint me, the local member, with just an iota of what was discussed last nigh t and un fortu nately, the way our rules are these days, that we have two committees going on at the one time and I happen to have interests in that committee in the other House and un fortun ately could n't be here. But he would n't do me the courtesy of menti onin g somethin g whici is important to me in that area. I'm go ing away from this meeting ton ight, Mr. Chairman, and I can't assure those people that that 20 miles is going to be sno wplowed, never min d graded.

And he could care less, he could care less. All he did was talk to me in an arrogan t way as though he rules the roost. Mr. Min ister, you are the servant of the people of this province in the matter of the Min ister of Highways and what my needs are in my particular constituency are just as important as yours. And in this particular instance, Mr. Minister ... here's the letter, I can read it into the records, Mr. Chairman, if necessary, as to how des perate that situation is and he chose to speak to me the way he spoke to me tonigh t and I don 't accept it because I'll tell you Mr.

Minister, come this election you send your cohorts up into that area as you did in the last election and won every poll -y ou're not going to win them this time, not the way you talk ton ight because those people are expecting a gr eat deal mor e of you. They've expected a great deal more of you from the day you were elected, or you r party was elected and you've let them down for seven years and you don't realize it and don't think they're not goin g to get the words that you said tonight on their behalf. Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry to have disturbed this meeting ton ight, but I feel very very strongly about this mc:itter and those people that are suffering in the mean time and here we have noth ing but an arrogant Min ister of Highways that cou ld care less, but put a million and a half into the Daup hin constituency. Go to it. Have a good time. I've said my piece. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I thin k that since the member referred to the Pelican Rapid road, I did n't think that ...

As we have done in the past' we have such a thin g as Hansard and if the honour able memb er was not here for the discussion yesterday and we had a good discussion, he certainly can find it in Hansard like we do when the mem bers are not in the House during the question period or whatever. Hansard is published as quickly as possible and the mem ber can certainly read the questions and the answers and the discussion that took place in Hansard tomorrow or the day after. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , the discussion did become rather wide-r angin g and I would like to remin d my friend, the Member for Swan River, that the two comm ittee system was put into effect with the complete co-operation of his party. MR. Bll TON: That's right and I am not complaining. MR. G. JOHNSTON: The second thing I would like to remind the mem ber of is the fact that in the days when - and he and I were elected together - in those days his government had no hesitation whatsoever in closing down a committee or refusing to call a committee if it didn' t suit their purposes and he knows that's a matter of historical record.

I'm not a proponent of this governm ent but they have been mor e open in com mittee than any other government before. The third thing I'd like to remind my friend of before I start my remarks, that on nu merous occasions as a memb er of the opposition representin g the constituency of Portage la Prairie, I called various government departments many times and many times I was told by civil servants that I had to speak to the Min ister. They were told not to give me the informa tion and I want to remind the Honour able Member for Swan River that's the way it was before 1969. -( lnterject ion)- MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I'm going into business if the honour able mem ber wants to know, I'm going 1630

Tuesday, April 5, 19 77 into business and I'm going to enjoy myself. - (Interjec tion)- No, I think it's big business. Now, if I can return to the Min ister. I'm not quite satisfied with his reply. First of all, I thin k that if a highway or a road is constructed under the Northlands Agreemen t, that the province, namely through his department, should have control. It shouldn't be given to another Min ister. Another Minister shouldn' t issue statements that are really speakin g for the policy of the Highways Department and I feel very strongly about this.

If a highway is being constructed largely with Federal funds, it's still a provincial respon sibility. -(lnter jection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. G. JOHNSTON: It's still a provincial respon sibility because an agreement was made, the fun ds were supplied and the province was given the responsi bility. Now I have one other question and then perhaps the Min ister can take them and answer them and allow other mem bers to take

part in the discussion .

I note under Construction of Provincial Trun k Highways and Roads that it states and I quote: "Provides for the construction of a highway system at a standard that is acceptable to the travelling public, that services existin g and new indu stries, resources and tou rism at the highest level of safety within existing economic resources." Now I would like the Minister to tell me if his governm ent and his department are goin g alon g with the request of the Federal Government to reduce the speed limits in the province and this relates to the construction of hig hways, curbs' grades and so on? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Yes, Mr .... MR. JOHNSTON: If I can complete. The province of Ontario and I believe two other provinces have moved in the direction of reducing the speed limit. Could the Min ister inform the comm ittee what the governm ent's inten tions are in this regard? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: I'd be glad to, Mr. Chairman, if I can take the last things first. The last question that the memb er asked was what the province of Man itoba is doing or is proposing to do with regard to speed limits on our highways.

We made the statements I did as Min ister of Highways and the Premier as well -s ome time ago , that we all agreed, all the provinces agreed to go metri c by 1977 and as far as highway signs are concerned, by September 1977, that mean s this comin g September. Now, to red uce the speed limits in the provincial highways earlier within - when I say earlier I'm talking about the last year or two - I felt would be a waste of mon ey in the changin g of sign s since we are going metric. So we said that if and when we do go metric there we are hoping to red uce the speed limit somewhat.

We have kept that promise and we are goin g to be reducing the speed limits on our Manitoba hig hways to some deg ree when the new sign s go up and I gave the speed limits in kilometres. Where we have a 70 mile an hour speed limit on our fo ur-lane roads, that will be red uced to 100 kilometres or 62.1 4 miles per hour.

Where we have speed limits presently in existence of 60 or 65 mi les per hour, they will become 90 kilometres per hour or 55.92 miles per hour and of course there will be some speed limits where we have ... around the interchanges and lights, they' ll probably be about 40 kilometres or 20 some miles, 25 miles per hour or somet hing like that, somewhere in the neighbour hood, but basically those are the three main speeds.

So there is a reduction of about eight miles per hour on the four -lane highways and fou r and nine ... when you take 60 and 65 reducing it down to 90 kilometres an hour there will be a difference of four miles on the 60 and nine mi les on the 65 miles per hour when you bring it to 90 kilometres per hour. So that we believe will come into effect, as we see it now, in September of this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: About the matter of the travellin g public who have older cars and they don' t have any kilometre read ing, are you goin g to post the new speed limits in the miles per hour for a year or so? MR. BURTNIAK: No, I don 't think that would be a good idea. The other provinces will not be doin g that either because I thin k it would cause a lot of confusion by the moto ring public. We hope to go into some fairly intensive publicity and , in that manner, we hope that the general public will be able to accommo date or be able to understand and be able to convert into the kilometres instead of miles per hour.

But to do it as the hon ourable memb er sugg ests, havin g it both in the metri c and the other wou ld be very confusing I would think and therefore, we're not sug gesting that an d we discussed it with other provinces and no other province is doing that either. I migh t point out, Mr.

Chairman , although this has nothin g to do with the speed limits but, what we have don e in the last, I believe it's almost two years now, we did put up dual sig ning deal ing with the destination sign s, as the hon ourable memb er knows, in several locations aroun d the province in larger centres, where we indicate distances from poin t A to point B in both miles and kilometres. · That's in both. But when it comes down to the speed limits, that is a little dangerous. - (I nterjection)- 163 1

Tuesday, April 5, 1917 Yes, I'm advised that just lately we were info rmed that the automobile man ufacturers will have available. I suppose for pu rchase, a decal for those cars which are the olde r models, which do not have the kilometres per hour on their speedomet ers, but you can, I guess you can install them in some way or paste them, or glue them on or whatever, just for the benefit of the travelling public. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Well, the Minister hasn't come to my original question about highways built under the Nor th lands Agreement, who has contro l, who constructs them , who decides the route they take, who decides whether or not it should go through a wild life refuge and so on. IVIR. BURTNIAK: Well, in the case of western Nor thlands Agreement, I migh t say that the Department of Highways does not have all that much involvem ent as a depart ment. What we are asked to do, perhaps when there is a new road being punched through is to put a line through.

Then, of course, when deal ing with the environ ment, the Departmen t of Mines and Resources, that is their jur isdiction and althoug h we may have some input in the construction of the road, it is is strictly - I would think I would be safe in saying - sort of at length situation really because, in this case, it is either the Nor thern Affairs or the Department of Rene wable Resour ces that has the full respon sibility of that kin d of road construction. We may, as I say, go in and do certain thin gs like surveys and the likes of that, but not actual construction as such.

I don 't kn ow if that helps the honour able memb er or not, whether it answers the question, butw hat I'm really tryin g to say is, to put it very plainly or very bluntly, when we talk about the western north land, that really is not ... We at the Department of Highways are not that much involved with Western North land, not to the sam e degr ee as we are with the highway strength ening, for examp le, which is strictly from the Department of Highways and the Federal Governmen t

whereas in these other cases it's either Northern Affairs or the Departmen t of Ren ewable Resources. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Min ister, I'm not sati sfied with whatever arrangemen t the Minister has made. I think it's quite a strange departure where in all other areas of the provin ce the Departmen t of Highways has control over standards, over routes taken, over land acquisition -(l nterjection )- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR.

JOHNSTON: ... and I fin d it very strange that the Min ister of Highways would give up respon sibilities even though it is a federal-provincial agreemen t that is favourable to the province and surely that the Min ister should be as on e with the Min ister of Northern Affairs in this regard.

The Minister of No rthern Affairs, in my opin ion, has a different approach and he's demon strated that has a differen t approach completely to the approach that should be taken by a departmen t such as yours, that is to construct roads in the safest manner possible, the best routes possible and to serve the most people possible and I fin d it very strange that two departmen ts of the Provincial Governmen t are operatin g, as the Minister just said, at arms length, where the Minister of Highways doesn 't really know what the Min ister who sign ed and concluded the Nor thlands Agreemen t ...

I fin d that very strange. MR. BURTNIAK: It may seem strange, Mr. Chairman, but I want to assure the hon ourable mem ber that it wasn't the Min ister of Highways that sugge sted such an arrangem ent, but regardless, it was a policy decision made by Cabinet that the north ern roads will fall under the Min ister of Nor thern Affairs, which roads are not built to the same standards as what the Department of Highways builds. Most of these roads are winter roads.

I guess one could say that to some degree man y of these are below-standard roads; perhaps some day in the future they may become PRs, but at the mo ment they are there for the simple reason that we like to link up the various isolated communities which do fall under the Departmen t of Northern Affairs, and that was the decision made by this governmen t, not necessarily by the Minister himself. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I yield the floor. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Member for Ro ck Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to pose a question first of all to the Min ister of Highways in regard to Provincial Road 245 from Notre Dame. Can the Min ister indicate what's goin g to be don e this year on that particular road? On the new program, 245, yes, for 1977-78? I see it's for grade and gr avel. Can the Minister assure me this is goin g to be don e in 1977? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is referrin g to 242 and 245? MR. EINARSON: Right. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I am not in a position to guarantee that.

No matter which item you pick, I cann ot guarantee - that's why it's in the prog ram, we hope to have it don e. We'll betendering these projects but somethin g unforeseen could happen that it may not be don e, so therefore I don't think that I would want to go ahead and give the guarantee that every project that's on here will be don e, for obvious reasons. That is the reason why we have them in the program, hoping to have them done this year. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Min ister, has the completion of acquisition 1632

Tuesday, April 5, 19 77 of property been taken care of or is that not completed as yet, on that particular progr am, from 244 to 242? MR. BURTNIAK: Usual ly, Mr. Chairman, what the mem bers will see, if the acquisition of right-of way has not been completed , then we don't as a rule put the prog ram in, although it's listed as acquisition of rig ht-of-way as the honourable mem bers can see. On many locations what we have listed for th is year is acquisition of right-of-way.

Now, by acquisition of rig ht-of-way again , I repeat because we're tryin g to establish fully our three-year progr am, that if we do acquire the land this year, in the fiscal year 1977 - 78, that does not necessarily mean, although it may, that whatever is to be do ne there, whether it's upgradin g, paving or whatever or wid en ing, will be don e in the year 1978-79. All we're doin g, is to have en ough work ready for us to go in from year to year without having to wait for the acquisition of right-of-way and slow up the progr am. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister had a delegation a number of mon ths ago where the land had to be acquired, I believe, in order to do a proper job of buildin g up the road from, say, Notr e Dame west, whatever portion that he chose to build up, and I believe then, at that time, land had to be acquired . That's why I'm won deri ng if that has already been completed? MR. BURTNIAK: I'm not sure, Mr. Chairman, if all the land had to be acquired, I thin k there was on e or two parcels, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, I thoug ht we had acquired some but there was some left to be acquired at that time. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, that's quite true, but that land that was necessary to be acquired, is what I'm wondering if it's been completed? MR. BURTNIAK: I'm sorry, I wouldn 't be able to give the hon ourable memberthe answer, whether we have, but I would thin k we're pr etty sure although I can't be positive that we have the land, but I would thin k we are because if we didn 't have the necessary acquisition of land, we would have not put the item on the prog ram and specifically stated grad ing and gravelling. I would thin k that we have the land now. MR. EINARSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to eqnu ire, on 259, this is 1.5, now this is a case of the Assin iboine Valley, the edge slidin g out. It's been over a year since that hole - it's rather shockin g that I see the acquisition of rig ht-of-way as a projected schedule, with that thin g being in that state. Is it a fact, Mr. Chairman, that the testing an d the shifting that is goin g on in that particular terrain, that they haven't really got an answer to it?

I know there was a similar situation on the opposite side of the valley two or more years ago and I'm just won der i ng, what is the program really? Is that liable to be don e later this year or is it indeed not even maybe being consider ed? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, this particular project reminds me very much of a simi lar situation that we have been experiencing in St. Lazare, an d I thin k the Honourable Member for ... MR. McGREGOR: Smith Fal ls. MR.

BURTNIAK: .. . for Virden is aware that as far as we know, we hope to proceed with it but here again , under these kind of circumstances, one really never knows until you get right into it. MR. McGREGOR: All right, the other question would be to do with access roads and I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, the Min ister is aware of what I am goin g to ask him, and that is, the access road policy off of PR roads. I kn ow the mun icipal people are defi nitely concerned about this.

They are fair-min ded people, I know they have approached the First Minister in 1973 and I believe they had a commitmen t from the Min ister that a policy would be forthcomin g. I'm not aware if there has been a policy. If there has been one, I'm not aware of it. Will that policy fol low somewhat alon g the provincial trun k highway policy regardin g access roads? Of course, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the Minister is aware of on e commun ity very close to my home area, the town of Lenore that's only less than a half-mile off an d that Coun cil is certainly concerned, when when are you coming up?

The mun icipal people are not askin g for mor e than that road in , they're not askin g for as wide as that road, but just simply a half-mile access. Will there be a policy in the futu re, in this year or next year, regard ing PRs? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to than k the hon ourable member for men tionin g this to me earlier this afternoon on the possibility of a program of access roads off of PRs.

I had indicated some time earlier, a year or two ago or when ever it was, I thin k to the hon ourable memb er and to the mem bers of the comm ittee, that we were definitely lookin g to a policy of this kind. Un fortu nately last year we tried to practise some constraint and we thought that as far as highways were concerned, since we have not devised a prog ram of this kind, that this was best not to be proceeded with at this point in time. · Now, with in the next year or two, I hope that this can be sort of reinstated again, Mr.

Chairman, and we can take a good close look at it and perhaps implement that type of policy. MR. McGREGOR: The other question , it's really a min or on e, but it's to do with sign s. I come from the small commun ity of Kenton and the Chamber of Comme rce is always asking, when can we get a 1633

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 sign on Numb er 121, and we got a real detailed letter from the Brandon office and it certainly brought down the Chamber of Commer ce with that honourable gentlem an's explanat ion . He certainly hadn't looked at the map and why and why not. And at the same time I drive out west of here and I see a sign on Numb er 1 Highway, Fortier, that maybe ten years ago had an elevator, it's not hing now. You go down a little farther and you see a sign , Beaver, I don't know, I can't fin d any place by the name of Beaver. You go on and you get an unlimited -(l nterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

MR. McGREGOR: And the point is -(ln terjection) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know, in the on e quarter that we've asked tor, we've been denied and yet I do see these other sign s. It might be well, it you had a Brylcreem sign , you'd get some revenue from it where you really don't get anythi ng from a commun ity that is no longer there. I realize there's a big stretch of remod eling of your tour-lan es, they are all down, but I imag ine one or two years from now these non- commu nities will go up alon g there and I can't understand why. What is the criteria?

Is it miles, is it join s of other highways off that, say, from zero to Hamiota or Shoal Lake, or what is the criteria? MR. BURTNIAK: First of all, I would say, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable mem ber's point is well taken. I do agree that there are certain sign s on the highways, not too many, but they are sor t of obsolete. I think it was just a matter of not gettin g aroun d to taking them off, or replacing or whatever. So we will take that particular question that the memb er has posed and we'll certainly give it every consid eration. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minn edosa. MR.

BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to question the Min ister under this particular item on the construction, are there plans for the tourist access roads in the Thompson area? I don't know whether I missed it this afternoon; if I have, I can pick it up in the Hansard, but could the Min ister tell us what roads are planned to provide access to new recreational areas in the Thompson area? MR. BURTNIAK: I'm sorry, I'm not aware of anyth ing of that nat ure, Mr. Chairman. MR. BLAKE: There are no plans tor new access to areas in the Thompson area at all? MR.

BURTNIAK: The on ly one, I think, if we have it here is ... here's one, Paint Lake. It's not a new one. MR. BLAKE: I realize that, Mr. Chairman, but we've just learned now that the Tourist Branch is buildin g roads; the Departmen t of Rene wable Resour ces are buildin g roads; and the Highways Branch are buildin g roads. I don 't want to belabour the point, the Member for Portage covered it, but it just seems unusual that the Departmen t of Highways is not respon sible tor buildin g all the blood y roads in the provin ce.

When you get it spread aroun d in three departmen ts, nobody is goin g to know who is in charge, what standards they are goin g to build to, or anyth ing else. The Nort hlands . Agreemen t, I realize, is shared with many departmen ts, but there should be some overall control that we know - and I'm sure some of that North lands money should be goin g into Thompson. There are dele gation s hitting the Min ister of Resour ces, the Parks Min ister, the Tourist Min ister, to open up new lots in that Thomp son area.

Surely the Min ister must be aware of the pressure on the Paint Lake area in Thompson and surely they must have some plans for a road to another lake somewhere in that area. That's what I'm asking him for. MR. BURTNIAK: I believe I'm correct, I think, that the Member for Minned osa is talking about the Partridge Crop Lake, I believe that is the ... MR. BLAKE: Well, Partridge Crop Lake is one, there are a lot of lakes up there and all they are asking tor is access to them and they want the Parks Branch to give them some sites to put their cabins on. MR.

BURTNIAK: The Partridge Crop Lake is on e of the areas that has been discussed tor quite som e time, I believe. As a matter of fact since I was in Tourism there were discussions about buildin g the Partridge Crop Lake. Now, I don 't know just where that stands right now, but ... MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, this is exactly the point of my argum ent. Now, the Departmen t of Highways doesn't know where in the hell the situation on that lake stands; I'm sure Ren ewable Rsources don 't know; and if I ask the Parks .

Branch, they'll say, "Well, that's Highways Department." This is the exact point that we are trying to make, that it's absolutely ridiculous that there are three departmen ts of this governmen t runni ng aroun d buildin g roads when you've got a Departmen t of Highways that are capable, they've got the staff and the ability and it's just absolutely ridiculous and inconceivable that these other departmen ts are running aroun d buildin g roads and your departmen t doe sn't know where the hell they are goin g or where they are build ing the roads to.

And the people up north don 't know, and they get shuffled from on e departmen t to another and it's absolutely ridiculous. This is what somebody's got to get a hand le on. MR. BURTNIAK: That's partly true but not entirely because, as I mention ed earlier, the roads that the hon ourable memb er is referring to in the no rth, they are win ter roads, roads to the commun ities which are isolated. That falls under the Departmen t of Nor thern Affairs. 1634

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 MR. BLAKE: Which should name the roads and de legate them to your d epartmen t to build. MR. BURTNIAK: As I stated earlier, Mr. Chairm an, that was the policy that was devised by this government. Now, the hon ourable member can argue whether it's right or wrong, but ... MR. BLAKE: It sure as hell can't be right. MR. BURTNIAK: You may think so and that's your privilege of course and I appreciate that, but as I say again , the roads that are being constru cted in the north are not up to the standard that we in the Highways Departmen t are buildin g for PRs and PTHs and the like.

The tourist roads, this is nothing new, I migh t say, Mr. Chairman, because I can go back seven, eight years ago, when I was in Tourism, and we did have some roads that were constructed not exactly by the Departmen t of Tourism, but by Highways for Tourism. We supplied the fun ds. We didn 't have the staff at the time that the Departmen t of Tourism has now, and we were not able to do so, but we were very much involved in certain areas like Hecia Island and others, Black Isl and, I should say, where some of these roads were punched thro ugh .

So as I say, it's really nothi ng all that new and really, as far as the northern roads as such are concerned, I think really that the Departmen t of Nor thern Affairs, in my view at least and the view of the governmen t, is the proper departmen t to look after their northern roads, and barges and the likes of that. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't referrin g to a winter road or a road that migh t lead to a barge site for win ter freightin g. It would have to be considered an all-weather road that the tourists can get in and out to sum mer cottages in the summer mon ths.

That would have to be a reason ably good gr ade and gr avel road . Now maybe the Min ister would give us his own impression s. Would he prefer that the road construction prog ram were under complete control of his departmen t, or is he happy with this slipshod method of everybody running off, buildin g little roads here and there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, whether the Minister is happy or not, I don 't think is the question. I would think, Mr.

Chairman ' although I appreciate the commen ts made by the hon ourable memb er, but I am just won derin g whether we are discussing the Estimates of the Departmen t of Highways, or are we discussing policy of the governmen t? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minn edosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I thin k it could be both, because you provide for the construction of a highway system acceptable to the travellin g public that serves new industries and there's also some tourism.

I wanted to kn ow what roads were goin g to be built in the Thompson area to service tourism and not so much tour ism, the residen ts there that are deman din g very stron gly, that they be allowed access to some of these lakes to provide recreation facilities for their fam ilies .. Not so mu ch for outsider s, but for their own fam ilies. And you tell me that the on ly thing on the program is maybe to Partridge Crop Lake, that maybe Parks Branch migh t build, maybe Ren ewable Resou rces or Nor thern Affairs migh t build it. Now that's not very satisfactory to people in the north.

They would like to kn ow who's goin g to build it, when it's goin g to be built, and how fast they can get maybe another couple of roads into those recreation areas to provide for cottage sites. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I doub t very much, really, if the Departmen t of Nor thern Affairs or Departmen t of Renewable Resou rces would build that kin d of a road . It could be constru cted by Highways or by the Departmen t of Tourism , but certainly not the other two. Those aren't the kind of roads that they construct. MR.

BLAKE: We'll be goin g into Nor thern Affairs very shortly, and we're goin g to be questioni ng the Min ister of Rene wable Resou rces on this, and I'll bet you right now, two bits will get you half, that he's goin g to say, "Well' that's Highways Departmen t. I won't answer those question s, you can't press me, that will be Highways Department." And how in the devil do we get the answers? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I just pointed out to the member that I would doub t very mu ch if Nor thern Affairs, or Renewable Resources wou ld be constructing that road to Partridge Crop.

It would either by Highways or Tourism, but not the Departmen t of Rene wable Resou rces or Nor thern Affairs, I'm pretty certain of that right now. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, as I say, obviously we're not goin g to get answers on what plans are in store for the Thom pson area to open up new areas. Hopefu lly, when we get into Tourism or Nor thern Affairs, we may get some action . The people up there are asking, and this is why I brough t it out this evening , because it's in conceivable to me that the road program is goin g to be under three or four departmen ts. I just fail to see it. Carry on, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Robl in. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I dare say, that we could likely spend the last of this sum mer here dealin g with each individual constituency road. I wonder, would it not be possible, another time, for· us to meet like we do in Public Utilities to deal with this. We can arg ue - the Min ister talks about Provincial Trunk Highway No. 20, he said, what a horrible condition it was in the days that we were government, the Ro blin governmen t - I can tell him today' it's no better, only in his own constituen cy.

He's paved 20 in his own constituen cy and left the rest of it just like it was. 1635

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 MR. BURTNIAK: Oh, Mr. Chairman, I beg your pardon. Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, that is absolutely a lie. The honour able memb er knows damn well that the road, all the way from 20A, all the way down, past Win n ipegosis, north of Win n i pegosi s, is paved, not just in my constituency. It takes in Robl in constituency, Ste. Rose constituen cy, as well as Dauphin . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. That is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Ro blin . MR. McKENZIE: That's my point, Mr. Chairman.

We can argue about these PR road s, the Provincial Trunk Highways, and we could be here forever, whether they're fair, whether they're good, whether they're medi um. I wonder if there isn't some other vehicle that we could use to deal with these matters in comm ittee, because, as I say, this could go on and on forever. I have a list here of roads that would make your head swim, but I'm not goin g to deal with them. I would like to deal with the wide-ra ngin g policies of this gove rnmen t.

First of all, I think we have enough eviden ce in the comm ittee' that this governmen t shouldn 't be manag ing the transpor tation problem s of our province, because they don 't know how. It's split over three or four departmen ts, this Minister doe sn't have the answers, and he blames another Minister, and we go to the other comm ittee and they blame them . I wonder now, energy is run nin g out' by the 1980s, we're goin g to be likely ration ing gasolin e in this province, I wonder under construction here, if he can giveth is comm ittee the plans of this governmen t for the next five or six or ten years.

Rai lways are going to be abandoned. This province is going to be a new system. We're goin g to have to get up with new ideas. Are you goin g to ration gasolin e? And where are we goin g to go in the next ten years? Can you give us some idea?

What kind of arterial roads are you buildin g, what ones are you goin g to concent rate on, what lines do you suspect are going to be abandon ed by the railways, are you prepared to build those roads and give us a tran sportation system which will likely go with trucks, so we have to save what energy we have, and with the price of energy today in this province, we can't afford that luxury much lon ger, because most of us are likely goin g to have to walk or ride on a bus.

So we're goin g to have to save our energy amd and either ride on a bus and put five or six people back in a car instead of what you see in the city here every day, one person goin g to an d from wo rk. So would the Minister give us, in this committee, some idea of the plans of this governm ent for the next four or five years, what arterial routes, what PR roads are you goin g to construct, which ones are we goin g to put our heavy trucks on, and where are we goin g? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Before the Honourable Minister answers, I do recall, the committee has had some di scussion and debate on plannin g and des ign of roads and having to do with the closing of railways. The Hon ourable Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I was just goin g to mention the very same thin g. However, I don 't min d repeating, briefly, on that particular topic that was dis cussed plann ing and des ign. I did indicate the position of the government in regard to rail line abandonmen t.

I sugges ted at that time' and I will sugges t again, that it doesn't matter what kind of roads you build to carry what loads , there is no cheaper way of transpor tin g heavy goods than by rail. Although we have to look at some of the possibilities of some abandon ment, as I said before, I don' t thin k we can prevent them all from being abandoned, but I think we can make a very strong plea, as we have in the past. We'll do it again to the Federal Government to consider the possibility of retainin g as man y of the branch lines in the province of Manitoba as we can.

At the same time, I have also indi cated that we do have a hig hway strengthenin g prog ram. I don 't kno w what I have to do to get this through to the memb ers opposite here. We have a highway stren gtheni ng program to carry 110,000 pound gross vehicle weights. This is the program which is cost-shared with the Federal Government' on certain PTHs.

We also have a program which the Province has embar ked on on its own to increase the gross weight on some of our - not entirely all - but in most of our other PTHs, and I thin k that is about the situation you can find in any other province of western Canada or eastern Canada as well, in regard s to saving of energy and the road programs. MR. McKENZIE: That's all I have, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I certainly do n't want to dwell on this very much longer. I know we've spent lots of time with everybody talking abouttheir road s.

However, prior to my coming into the Legislature, we had a period of governm ent also in my area, and I know that he was very well looked after, the Honour able Mr. Shoemaker. But we've never been fortunate enough to be on the side of government, so consequently, I guess our roads are maybe a little worse than anyone's. The two road s that I would like to speak about - on e is 352, south of Arden, and the reason being here - that in the construction of the No. 1 Highway, there always is a considerable amoun t of gravel moving over this area.

As I say the construction of No. 1 has brough t on a considerably heavier load and munic ipalities are feeling that they would like to see someth ing, at least the road main tained in its present position or upgrade it a bit, because it takes a terrible beatin g. 1636

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 The other one is a perennial one, 260 from north of Plumas, if you could tie that in with the Ste. Rose grid, why, it would be quite a help. This is an area that has long hauls to the elevators and this is one area that I would like to see upgraded . I think that would cover what I have to say, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, the points made by the Member for Gladstone and Neepawa certainly will be consider ed in the future programs. I think his points are well taken. MR. FERGUSON: That's all I have, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Min ister about Provincial Road 250. As he knows, that's the road that runs from Souris to the south border of Ridin g Moun tain National Park. Some years ago, a

section of that road was hard-su rfaced from the town of So uris to 349. I believe all that area within the constituency of Souris-Ki llarney now has hard top. I'm won dering why the

section between 349 and Trans-Canada No. 1 is still in a state of somewhat disrepair. It's a very diff icult surface to maintain a good gr avel top on. It's an extremely du sty road. It has fairly heavy traffic for a provincial road, I believe. I know this has been brought to the attention of the Minister. I have done it, last year at least, and perhaps the year before that. I wonder if he can tell me what the priorities are now for dealing with this particular

section of the road . MR. BURTNIAK: As I said earlier, Mr. Chairman, there are many many requests for certain sections of various highways, PRs, PTHs, requests come from indi vidua ls, from organ izations and municipalities and the likes. Just to put it very bluntly, we just were not able to put everything on the program last year or this year. As I say, I certainly would like to have all roads in Man itoba paved, but of course that just isn't possible. The hon ourable mem ber mentions it again, I certainly appreciate his concern.

We're taking a note of it and hopefully, perhaps in the next fiscal year, we' ll be able to look into it and see if some thing can be done by widen ing it or whatever is necessary to do on that particular stretch of road . MR. McGILL: I think the grade width is the same on the improved hard-su rfaced part of the road, as now exists on the

section between 349 and the Trans-Canada No. 1. I don' t think there's any problem there, although there may be one existing that I am not aware of. However, I'm wonderi ng why - this hard-su rfacing wou ld have been done two or three years ago, perhaps, the first

section , from So uris to 349 - and whether it was intended at that time to proceed year by year to hard top the road in a northerly dir ection until the heavily travelled parts of it, I would think between Rivers and Souris might be the least traffic. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I think that it's much longer than two or three years. I could be wrong, but I think it's mor e than two or three years that this

section from Souris to 349 was paved. Now, the reason for that, I can't say offhand. What warranted the paving of this road was probably the traffic flow in there. Now, if ther e is still a heavy traffic flow from there on to No. 1 - I don' t know offhand' I do n't have the traffic count in front of me here - but I would think that origi nally when that road was done, that

section from Souris to 349, there had to be a good reason for it. Perhaps it was in worse shape than the mor e northerly part of it, that's why it was probably looked after at that time. But I'm pretty sure it's mor e than three years. MR. McGILL: Then it wasn't part of a program that was intende d to advance year by year with the hard topping north from there? MR. BURTNIAK: Usually, Mr. Chairman , that's the policy we like to fol low, but that doesn't mean we can always live up to it, unfortunately, on every road that we do pave. MR. McGILL: Is the Minister able to give me any projection of this?

I see it's not in the Estimates for this year. At least is it the intention of the department to do this in the succeeding year? MR. BURTNIAK: The best way I could answer that, Mr. Chairman, is when we review our overall program for the fol lowing year, we will certainly give that consider ation. MR. McGILL: I'd like to switch now to No. 10 Highway, Mr. Chairman, and that

section particularly that goes through the City of Brando n, it's 18th Street, really, that I'm talking about. The Min ister is aware of the area from Richmond Avenue to Victoria. Part of that was wide ned and a median established, and we now have the situation where there's a narro wing of that road, and the numb er of lanes decreases, from about Van Horne Avenue to Victoria.

It's one of the most noticeable narro wing areas, and I think it's somewhat dangerous in that area for people who are not familiar with this, particularly traffic from out of town going through there, who may get into diff iculty just at the point where the med ian ends and the two lanes come into a narr ower stretch. What is the program that the department has in mind? I see no money in here for this particular project. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman , what the Member for Brandon West described is quite accurate. We in the department are quite aware of the situation, and it's, as I say, a dang erous situation there.

Our district office and I think some of the staff from here have been meeting with the City of Brandon on that particular question and discussions have been held. I think that what is really left now is pretty well the design. We hope that once we have full agreement on both sides, we will be able to proceed . We may have some funds. We never know, sometimes you run into some diff icult problems, the 1637

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 weather, or whatever, and you could shift funds around' so we hope that whether it's now or maybe later on in the season, we'll be able to look at it' and see if improvements can be made like we did the rest of the way. · MR. McGILL: Is there any mo ney in these appropriations for that work? MR. BURTNIAK: Not in here, no. We did not include it until we got an agreement with the city as to exactly what the design is going to be like. MR. McGILL: Is there any way then, you say that you may be able, this summer, to proceed with this work.

Is there any way financially that this can be achieved under the present appropriations? MR. BURTNIAK: As I said, as long as it's not too late in the season, we may be able to do that. If we happen to run into some problems with some other project -w hen I say problems I am referring to weather cond itions and things of that nature. Or, well, it could be several reasons, and if we feel that it's a very necessary thing, and we kno w it is, as I say, as long as we fully agree with the City of Brandon as to what the design is to be, we hope that we'll be able to do some thing on it this summer. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, is the delay which has occurred up to this point in pursuing this work on 18th Street, is it in any way conn ected to a difficulty with property owners along that street? MR. BURTNIAK: Partly, accesses and so on. MR. McGILL: Was it the intention to proceed earlier, last year perhaps, and was there a difficulty that arose that caused it to be delayed? MR. BURTNIAK: Yes, that's right, maybe not last year, but certainly if we would have had the complete clearance last year, we certainly, I'm pretty sure, would have been in the program for this year, you kn ow, fully in the prog ram. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , have these technical diff iculties, i.e. property owners' concerns about the widen ing of the street in that area, have they been overcome? Is there any impediment still remaining? MR. BURTNIAK: This is where the problem seems to lie, as I under stand it, but it hasn't been completely final ized. Now, the last information that I received is that we are very close to getting some agreement as far as all parties are concerned. MR. McGILL: Where does the respons ibility lie for resolving this diff iculty? Is it with the Province of Man itoba or with the City of Brandon? MR.

BURTNIAK: Well, it's a combination of both, I would think . I don' t think that the province wants to go into the City of Brandon or any other town or city and arbitrarily say we will do this, that and the other thing. The city, in this case, is the traffic authority anyway. So I think it has to be sort of a mutual agreement and we also try to consider what it will mean to the residents and the likes of that that are involved . So once that is all resolved , we will be able to proceed and hopefully can do it this year. MR. McGILL: So as far as you are concerned, Mr.

Chairman, to the Min ister, Brandon has done what is necessary in this respect to bring the project to a point where it would be possible to proceed this summer. Is that essent ially a proper sum mation of the situation? MR. BURTNIAK: As far as I kno w, yes, I would think so. MR. McGILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you , Mr.

Chairman, I also have some parochial concerns, but first of all I would just like to briefly note that the Capital Works Project as far as construction of provincial trunk highways and pro vincial road networks and related projects has been cut and we're facing almost a 20 percent cut this year. Now, I wonder ifthe Min ister could tell us itthat will mean a reduction in staff as far as the Highways Department is concerned . I think that the cutback means that we will have a certain nu mber of emplo yees that will be suffering from lack of work. Now.

I believe that this is one area where this governm ent should not have cut. I think that road construction should be going ahead . I would like to ask the Min ister what he feels the average increased cost of construction over last year would be due to inflation? In other words, the new tenders that are arriving, what is the department estimating the increased cost of construction forth is year will be?

I would like to point out to the Minister that maybe, if the gov ernm ent is concerned with creating jobs and that type of thing, that it could possibly engage in more road construction instead of building thing s like Flyer buses. I think the people maybe that are emplo yed at Flyer ... If the governme nt wants to subsid ize a facility such as that to the tune of $7 mi llion a year, it could be much mor e beneficially spent on road- building construction. The other point was raised by the Member for Min nedosa and I would like to just elaborate on that for just a second too.

In the Hecia Island area we've go t the Highway Department building 2.8 miles right now, reconstructing it to the tune of some $800,000.00. We've got the Department of Tourism build ing roads on Hecia Island itself, and then we've got the Department of Renewable Resources work ing on Black Island. And then to connect that all up, apparently we've got Nor thern Affairs deal ing with the Federal Government for a road on the east side of Lake Winnip eg. Now, the point that the Member for Minne dosa made, I think is very well taken. I think that this is 1638

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 one of the cases where the right arm doesn't know what the left arm is doing and I would sug gest to the Minister that he speak with his fellow colleagues in the Cabinet and try and get this all under one Ministry. As I mentioned, you have got this cut in budge t, you'r e going to have some people around that possibly aren't as active as they could be in the road-bu ilding project and if you brough t all this under one umbrella, namely all this road construction that is going on in the different areas, possibly you could keep these people going.

Again, I would like to say that I think that road construction in the province is a very important part of not only our social stay-option prog ram that this government has mentio ned so often that it wants to implement, but it's also paramount if we want to make sure that we can keep these communi ties going. So with those comments, I would just like to ask the Minister if the tenders for the No. 12 Hig hway north of Stein bach going through the Trans Canada Highway, if the tenders for that particular piece of road that is mentione d in the Highways project schedule, is going to be tendered for this year? MR.

BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, the memb er is enquiring about No. 12, eig ht-and-a-half miles nor th, Fir st Avenue nor th of Stein bach. Is that the grade and structures? Well, as I say, these programs that are listed here for the forth coming year and the carry over ones, of course we hope to be able to do them this year. Now, whether we can complete them all or not is anyb ody's guess. It depends on many thin gs such as the weather and the likes and last year, I migh t point out, we had an exceptional ly good year.

We went way beyond our expectations because of the fine weather in the fal l of the year and all sum mer. It's not very often that tat happens. Most of our construction programs are not completed like they were last year because of the early freeze-up or wet weather and so the program has to stop; last year it did not. So as I say, barring unf oreseen weather conditions, we hope to be able to do most of the projects that are on the list. Mr.

Chairman, in regard to the comments that the Honour able Member for La Verendrye made suggesting that perhaps we should employ some people from Flyer Industry or any other places that have been laid off in the Department of Highways, I want to point out to the honourable member that we are dealing here with Current Estimates.

I think we had this similar discussion last year and rightly or wrongly, I always feel that most of our high ways - that's my view and that is the direction we've been going the last few years - that I would like to see hig hways under Capital Construction because I believe a hig hway is a capital program, is a capital project, rather more so than a current one. So here we are discussing only the current amounts. Now, when we have our Capital Supply Bill and the rest, the members will know what the program will be in total for this year. .

But I want to point out to the honourable members that in the last five or six years, we have continued to increase the overall total, both current and capital, as far as our high way program is concerned, taking into consideration the inflationary costs, until we find that if you take the years 19 69-70 to 19 75-76, for example, those six years, we inc reased the highway program overall, not only for construction, but the overall program, from $52.8 million to $1 12 .3 million, which gives us an increase of someth ing like 115 percent in the last six years or on the average of something over 19 percent a year.

Maybe I shouldn't bring this point up at this time, but I think comparisons ought to be made so if you want to make comparisons, I think that if you look at the same six-year period, 19 64- 65, the total amount spent on the highway program was $32.8 million and up to 19 68-69 it was $46.5 or an in crease in those six years of 45 percent or seven-and-a-half percent a year. So, really, I think that we have tried to keep up with the road program, taking in the increases every year as well as allowing for the inflationary costs.

Now, as far as the member asking the question as to what our contracts and the likes might be as far as inflation is concerned, it's very difficult to say for sure but we are aiming around eight to ten percent at this point in time. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister would confi rm thoug h that as far as his share of the pie, in other words, his share of the total budget, the Highways Department has been conti nually falling behind compared to what it was in the past. MR.

BURTNIAK: I don' t think it is because I think if my honour able friend would talk to any of the contractors in the Province of Manitoba, you will find that the contr actors are happy. They are certainly not hungr y. They have more to do than what they can handle in Man itoba. We find that many of them are bidding and as a matter of fact at times we have to watch it very closely so that some contr actors don' t get too many jobs and might not be able to fini sh them off properly.

So this has beer. watched very closely and I might say that we have a numb er of contractors that have started up in the last few years because of the program that we fo llowed in the last five or six years whereby we have not had the peaks and valleys; we have tried to stabilize the program at a certain level, allowing for some incr ease as well as, as I said, inflationar y costs. This has been good both for the people of Man itoba and for the contractors as a whole. So that we have had a very stable program over the last five or six years and we hope to conti nue in 1639

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 this man ner in the futu re. MR. BANMAN: The Min ister mentio ned that they had a good year and they did a lot of construction. I wonder, was that total $29 million spent? MR. BURTNIAK: The amou nt that was spent last year on highways constn •;:;tion, that's both capital and current, was some thing around $65 million. MR. BANMAN: That's compared to the $90 million that we passed in the House? I'm sorry, the capital construction? MR. BURTNIAK: The capital construction, that's rig ht, capital and cu rrent. MR. BANMAN. Capital and current. And what was the total voted by the Legislature? MR.

BURTNIAK: Sixty-two point eight, I believe it was, so we overexpended our budget last year, the first time in a long long time. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of local questions for the Minister with respect to matters that have been raised in Souris-Killa rney. Numb er one, I wonder if the Min ister could tell me what investigations or plans, if any, his department has for the construction of a bridge across the Assiniboine River in the vicinity of Treesbank?

I'm sure he's been in receipt of a numb er of submissions from time to time to hook up the area in question with No. 340 Hig hway across the Assiniboine River at or near a point just to the north and slightly to the west of Treesbank. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman , we have had representation from that area on a numb er of occasions over the last while, the last year or so. As I recollect, there has been some disagreement as to what shou ld be done there, as to where a bridge, if one is to be placed, as to where that bridge should go.

I think that because of the two ferries, the Treesbank and the Stockton ferries -a nd there is disagreement as between the two localities and that's left sort of in abeyance until we get agreement from the commun ity as to what they want to decide to do. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister indi cate what studies, if any, his department has undertaken with respect to a crossing of the river in the Treesbank area? MR. BURTNIAK: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, if he has a copy of the map, I think it would be easier to explain.

As you know, Shilo is a pretty active place nowadays and we have looked at the possibility of extend ing the road 340, or at least we have had that sugge sted to us, that PR 340 be moved farther west about a mile or so because of the Shilo boundar y there. Then that would take the road 340 straight do wn, oh, somewher e just to the west of Treesbank, where the ferry is now. So that has been one proposa l. I'm told that the Engi neering Department has taken the soundings there and all that, so we have something on file on that particular question. MR.

LYON: It's on file but not at the plannin g stage, is that correct, Mr. Chairman? MR. BURTNIAK: We feel that that would be the best place to put in a break, where I just menti oned . As I say, we have that on file now but we haven't proceeded with it any further. I migh t point out, Mr. Chairman, as I stated earlier, there is also the question of moving the PR 340 another mile west.

I person ally feel and I believe that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition probably would agree with me, that I stron gly feel that if this were to be done, I don' t think that it should be done at the expense of the Provincial Governme nt. I think that the Federal Gov ernm ent should participate in any cost that might be incurred as far as the moving and relocation of PR 340. I'm afraid we haven't been very successful in getting that agreement from the Federal Governmen t as yet, but I certainly feel that this should be part of their expense.

After all, it's their camp there, it is a Federal camp there, so if they want to move the boun daries over, I think they should contri bute some of the cost of relocation of this particular road. MR. LYON: Has the Min ister or his department had any negotiations with the Department of National Defence with respect to the movement of 340? MR. BUR TNIAK: Yes, we have, that's rig ht. MR. LYON: Locally or with headquarters in Ottawa? MR. BURTNIAK: Locally here in Winnip eg. MR. LYON: A second matter, Mr.

Chairman, that I know the Deputy Min ister is well fam iliar with, we've had a chat or two about it and some others in the department. I'm referring to the south bridge in the Town of Wawanesa, the north approach to which was washed out in the flood last year. I kno w that the Minister's departmen t has undertaken some studies there and that they have been in touch with the Mayor, Mr. Wilton and other mem bers of the ... well, principally the mayor.

And the ind ication I believe that they are giving to the town council in Wawanesa is that it would be impossible, according to their studies so far, to replace the nor th approach to that bridge and that to relocate the bridge wou ld cost somewhere in the area of $300,000.00. I was wonderi ng if the Min ister had had any further information or his department any further discussions in recent weeks with the 1640

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 town and what other alternatives, if any, there migh t be to the placing of a crossing on the Sour is River, the replacement of that crossing on the Souris River for the convenie nce of not only the towns people but people travelling within that whole mark et area. It was a trad itional bridge that was used .Jcally by a lot of people. The detour causes a great deal of disaccommo dation . There's another matter that I'll raise a little later, but I was wondering if there had been anything further in his discussions with the Town of Wawanesa. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I wish itwas quite thats imple to put in an additional piece or span in there at that $300,000 but that is - or whatever the price - but that isn't quite the case. There :s a slip

section which our engi neers have checked , which goes way back into the nor th bank. I und erstand there are some homes close by, I don' t know how many but I believe there are a few, and there is a possibility that they may be in dange r very shortly if we get another high water in the spring, maybe not this year but within the next year or two and you never know what can happen this year, that they may be in danger as well.

If we were to build or to fix the existing bridge, we're talking about a span of about 350 feet to get past the slide and that does n't gua rantee us that that bridge will stay there and we're talking about close to three quarters of a mill ion doll ars if no t mor e. So that is an awful lot of mone y. And then, of course, the engine ers, and rightly so, would not recomme nd doing this on the existing location.

So, if a bridge were to be built there, it would have to be moved perhaps east, perhaps east or west, I'm not sure, but certainly it would have to be moved to another location to get away from the existing slide that appears to be there and I realize that it may inconv enience some people there but there are other ways of getting around. I don' t think there is that many people that are suffering very much. I do know that it may take them a little farther away, a few mor e miles to get around to town and, of course, that is an inconv enienc e. I appreciate that.

But I don' t think there are that many families that are inconven ienced very badly. However, I would say this to the Leader of the Opposition that if there is a further possibility in that area of further development or ind ustry or someth ing, which I understand is a possibility of this developing, then it becomes a different matter and I suppose the province will have to build a new bridge but perhaps not on the same location. It will have to be relocated in another location. MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Chairman' I'm happy to hear the Min ister make that comment and comm itment because I'm sure he'll be happy as the people in Wawanesa are,happy to be advised as I was recently, that there is a new ind ustry going in on the south side of the river there. I'm advised it's to be a mushroom plant, costing somewhere between $200 and $300 million . and providi ng some emplo yment in the area and the person .. A MEMBER: Thousan d. MR. LYON: Thousan d. I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I thought for a mo ment we were talkin g about Hydro losses - $200,000 to $300,000.00. -(I nterjection)- No, I'm so used to, Mr.

Chairman, for the benefit of the Min ister of Agriculture, to reading his own figu res and repeating them to him that I ... we don' t do things of that size in Wawanesa, but this plant, I am advised is going in. There is some constru ction, according to the information that I have, under way and there have been some contacts with some mem bers of the Min ister's department in that district, with respect to the bridge, because the presence of the bridge will play an important part as to the location of the plant which I am advised is under construction at the present time.

So I would hope that in the light of this information which has just recently come to me, and which I will in turn pass along to the Min ister by way of letter, that perhaps we can arrange to meet with the ... we'll have the Mayor and any of his councillors come in, along with the promoter s of the new plant and indi cate the absolute necessity of some crossing being made there for the purpose of this ind ustry. The information that we have to date is that this plant will cost ultimately $350,000, em ploying 18 to 20 persons. There is a possibility also of a canning operation in conne ction with it.

To give the Min ister some idea as a prelimi nary of what is involved if the bridge is not in place: One of the factors they need , of course, for the new plant is a ready supply of manur e from the horse stables that are in Wawanesa. To bring the manur e to the plant wou ld be a one mile trip via the bridge. However, to transpor t the manur e by det our is six and a half miles. For people living in the town it would bea half mile trip from the town to the plant via the bridg e where it's presently located although washed out and fif teen miles return trip via the deto ur.

So I think the Min ister can begin to see that there are some econom ics here. If the Town of Wawanesa is to continue to expand and to attract that kind of natural plant, that it will be necessary and I'm happy to have the Minister's commitment that they will look at it again, it will be necessary to reconsider this project in the light of the developme nt of the town. MR. BURTNIAK: At this point in time, Mr. Chairman, I hope that the Leader of the Opposition �oesn't take my statement wrongly.

I don' t think that even with the ind ustry that is going to be established there, I would have to be fair and I want to state to the Leader of the Opposition that I wo uld doub t whether we would be able to construct the bridge say, this summ er, but we'll certainly get a priority if the plant is in place, for the next fiscal year's prog ram. You know, we may be able to make a start or somethin g but I would doub t very much because that kind of money - probably we're talking about closer to a million doll ars - it wou ld be very diff icult to find, to start constructing a 1641

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 bridge of that capacity this particular construction year. But we would have to consider the possibilities. I.just want to make that clear so that the Leader of the Opposition would under stand that I'm not committing that bridge for this particular year. We will have to see what possibilities there may be, but I certainly cannot make-that commitment, but I can say that in the next fiscal year certainly, with the plant going in there, that would be one of our priorities. MR. LYON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Rhineland . MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman . I notice that for the third year in a row now we have purchase of right of way, a gr ade widen ing and shoulder gravel and structures on No. 14 highway and yet we have seen no activity there except possibly there has been some purchase of the right of way. I wonder, can the Minister tell us whether we can see some activity there this year? Are they going to start widen ing the should ers and putting gravel on them , or just exactly where do we stand with the No. 14 Highway? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the reason that this is in the carry-over part of the program is simply that we - and when I say we I'm talking about the land acquisition people - have run into certain problems in acquiring the right of way in certain areas along this 16 mile stretch and that is the reason why it hasn't proceeded any further than it has. MR. BROWN: Well Minister could tell me ' I wonder if the how many settlements remain to be made.

As far as I can dete rmine there are only very few settleme nts that arer emaining and some of these are due to the fact that there are supposed to be consid erable changes as far as drainage is concerned , which some of the people are rather concerned about. In this one particular instance there is a 24-inch culvert going through the hig hway and apparently the Department of Mines and Natural Resou rces has plan ned for two 48-inch cu lverts going through the highway and yet we are only dr ainin g 120 acres of land in that particular area and this 24-inch culvert can handle this very well.

Now in addition to this I understand that the municipality is supposed to spend about $100,000 on extra dr ainage in that particular area and we, for the life of us, cannot see where building should ers onto a highway is going to give us any more water than what we have at the present time and in that particular area we seem to have adequate draina ge . MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the engi neers from Water Control when they look at all the dr ainage problems, they make the suggestion as to what is required and really, it has nothing to do with the shoulders of the road, it's the amoun t of water that may pass through there at a given time and they take all these things into consider ation and they recomm end to the Department of Highways as to what size of pipe or culvert is to be placed. So that really it is the Water Control that makes the decision s as far as the size of culverts that are to be installed in a given road. MR.

BROWN: I wonder if the Min ister can tell me how many settleme nts still remain to be made in that particular area? MR. BURTNIAK: Yes, we don' t have it, Mr. Chairman . The member should know that the Department of Public Works is the department where the land acquisition people fall under and they wou ld probably have that inf orma tion. Land acquisition, rather than under Hig hways. We don' t have that informa tion . MR.

BROWN: If these settlements cou ld be made wit hin the next month or so, or six weeks or so, I wonder would the department be ready then to go ahead with construction and widen ing of the shoulder. MR. BURTNIAK: The only thing we could do, Mr. Chairman ... I'd like to say to the honour able memb er that we will certainly check with Public Works . I'm not in position to see if there are any more properties to be purchased and if there are, how many and so on. They can supply the information in a short time. MR. BROWN: I would appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to go to the No. 3 Highway now.

As you know' we have a lot of potatoes going out of Win kler, to Carberry, to Winnip eg and a lot of them going to Alberta. We have a portion of twelve miles on the No. 3 Highway which says 74,000 pound load limit on it and all the rest of it is 80,000. Now, because of this 12 miles these trucks cannot carry a full load and I notice that there is a bridge that is supposed to be constructed on the No. 3 Hig hway this year, if I'm right, which would be one of the major bridges which possibly wou ld be restricting this to 74,000 pounds.

I wonder when this is constructed , would we then be able to get a higher load. limit on that portion of highway? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr: Chairman, you know, this is what we are faced with, even with the Highway Strength ening Progra m, where we go to 110,000 pound s' there are certain sections of road we could not declare as 110,0 00 pounds because of structures and this is the same situation, very much the same similar situation here. I am not aware, Mr. Chairman, whether this is the only bridge, there may be others.

But because of the weakness in the structures that are presently there, we were not able to increase the load weight to 80,000 pound s. Now, as I say, I am not aware whether this is the only bridge we're talking about or ... oh, there's three, there's three structures here that are on the 16 42

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 prog ram. I believe this is the area we're talking about. No. 3 highway? MR. BROWN: Yeah, it's between ... from Jordan south ... MR. BURTNIAK: No, we don' t have anyth ing on there, Mr. Chairman, as far as the bridge s are concerned in that particular area. In looking at the carryover on this Program I don' t find it. But I would think that is perhaps one of the reasons ... Mr. Chairman, maybe we will get the informati on. There are several box culverts, I am told, that have to be replaced before we can move in the direction of increasing the . .. 1,000 pounds.

Once that is done, I'm sure that will be looked after. MR. BROWN: The bridge on the Dead Horse Creek, that's on the program as well. I think I saw this in your annual report. I couldn' t find it in this ... MR. BURTNIAK: I'm sorry, I did n't hear the honour able member. MR. BROWN: The bridge on the Dead Horse Creek on No. 3. MR. BURTNIAK: I'm just wo nderi ng if the hono urable member is inquiring about that bridge. I believe it's in the report. That bridge would have been constructed, wou ld it not? MR. BROWN: That bridge is to be relocated half a mile south from where it is at the present time.

They're changing the dr ain over there, the Department of Mines and Natural Resou rces. MR. BURTNIAK: We would n't know any thing about that, Mr. Chairman. It would n't be in our progr am. MR. BROWN: Would Mines and Natural Resou rces be buildin g the bridge ? MR. BURTNIAK: That's right. We don' t have it here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Min nedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, there's just one point I wanted to bring up.

A year or so ago there was a proposal made to the town of Min nedosa for widening and boulevarding the Main Street through the �own, Highway 4A where it runs through the town and rejoins 10. It required parallel parking in the town and the town council voted it down, so apparently the program was not proceeded with. Is that a qualification of the department, that they would have to go to parallel parking in order to have the Main Street ... MR. BURTNIAK: Usual ly, Mr.

Chairman' that is preferable, although I have to admit that there have been one or two occasions where it was not pos sible, but we wou ld prefer it for safety of all concern ed . I would say also that where this has been done, parallel parking has been put in, the people who opposed it origin ally would not part with it now. They really like it and they really know what it means from the safety point of view. But I do realize, it almost seems everywhere we enter this kind of a situation that originally there seems to be opposition, resistance, to the idea of parallel parking. MR.

BLAKE: I've seen this happen, Mr. Chairman, in two dif ferent towns that I worked in, and I ag ree with the Minister that once it's in, it's extremely acceptable. I don' t kno w how you overcome that feeling. I know I was approached by one of the councillors at home one morn ing to see what I thought of it. I said, "It 's the best thing since sliced bread", and he said , "Well, there's no point in talking to you any mor e." So my opin ion obviously wasn't sought after that.

I just wondered if they come back with strong recomm endations or reasons why it should n't be, there's still a possibility that they may get some upgr ading on this street if they can convince you that parallel parkin g is not absolutely essential, I suppose. MR. BURTNIAK: Usually, one of the answers, or the things that have been said at this point in time, is, what are we going to do with the additional cars if we're not going to be able to accomm odate them if we go to parallel parking.

But someho w that's always resolved, and as I said, you hate to admit the fact, at times, in certain localities, we have softened up, so to speak, and have ag reed with the ,own not to go to parallel parking. Of course, it's very much against our liking, because we do know that there are many safety factors in doing it the other way. We don' t want to say that we will bend on every occasion, because once you do that then you might as well forget about policy. It's not only because of the strong representation, there are several other things that enter into the picture that we may reconsider.

Barring that, we take a pretty firm stand in suggesting parallel parking. MR. BLAKE: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Brando n-West. MR. McGill: Mr. Chairman, I refer the Min ister to Page 9 of the Construction Progr am, Item 6 from the top. Trans-Canada Highway West, 15.3 miles from the west junction of 1 A west to Brandon and the appropriation or work is the acquisition of right of way. My question to the Min ister is, does this then take us past that

section of the road between Kem nay and the west access road to the town of Alexander? MR. BURTNIAK: I'm wonderi ng, Mr. Chairman, if we can't supply the answer to the mem ber - well maybe we can - If we can't I was going to take it as notice and give it to you tomo rrow ... From Kem nay ... MR. McGi ll: Kemna y to Griswold. It goes all the way to Griswold. MR. BURTNIAK: It's 15.3 miles, I would think so. 21 ... so that would be the distance. MR. McGI LL: Mr. Chairman , this takes us then through the area where we have what many people 1643

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 consider is the most substandard part of Trans Canada Highway in Man itoba' and that is that curve just on the east approach to the Alexander access road. Mr. Chairman, I guess I don' t need to remind the Minister that there have been a numb er of fatalities in that area in the past few mon ths, and while it would be un fair to relate all of those fatalities to that particular turn , that "S" tL.ffr'i-and change of elevation that occurs on the east side of Alexander, I do think that part of the road continues to be a real hazard.

I am wonderi ng if the Min ister has anything in mind for that section, shor t of waiting for the divided highway that's going to go through there. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman , it all depends, I would think as to when the fou r laning is going to be proceeded with in that particular location. If it is some time in the near futur e, then I wouldn't think that it would be wise for us to spend the additional dol lars in trying to do somethin g at the present time. However, if it's some time in the distant future' then perhaps we will have to do some thing there to try and correct the situation. MR.

McGI LL: When will the Min ister know then whether it is in the immediate future or some time in the distant future? MR. BURTNIAK: At the present time, I would have to say our plans are not to four lane in the imme diate future the road from Brandon to the Saskatchewan border. Traffic count does not indicate that it's necessary at this point in time. The traffic volume is not as great as it is between Brandon and Winnip eg and east. So, that again may depend on the traffic flow. At the present time, it does not warrant four laning.

So I wo uld have to say that perhaps this is somethin g in the distant future that we will be look ing at, as far as four laning is concerned from Brandon to the Saskatchewan border. That being the case, I suppose we wo uld have to keep a close eye and a watch on that particular

section that the member is referring to. MR. McGI LL: Mr. Chairman, keeping a close eye on it will be all very well and good, but I'm afraid it won't really prevent occurrences simi lar to the ones that have occurred in the past. I'm wonderi ng, if this present road is to be used for either the west-bound lane or the east-bound lane in future, why is it not possible to do some reconstruction on that curve, which I don' t think would be acceptable, even in a single direction traffic. MR.

BURTNIAK: Well, here again, we run into right of way problems, but I think I'd have to say the point is well taken and perhaps we shou Id examine the possibility of the sugge stion that the member ras made. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman , I would be prepared to leave the matter with the Min ister if I can be 3ssured that there will be some immediate examination of this possibility, because I know that the citizens of that area and all the people who use that road regularly commuting to Brandon and through traffic - and I guess the through traffic particularly is the traffic that we have to worry about because of the traffic that's changing speed. As Alexander grows to a bedroom commun ity for Brand on, there's a lot of traffic that's chang ing speed in that curve area, and this is providing a real traffic hazard.

I think that everybody in that area would appreciate some immed iate attention to this problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 71. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 71: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $25,425,0 00 for Highways-pass. Comm ittee rise and report. Comm ittee rise. 1644

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y of MANITOB A Tuesday, April 5, 1977 ESTIMATES - CONSUMER , COR PORATE AND INTERNAL SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan ): I refer honour able mem bers to Page 14. (The remainder of Reso lution 32 and Resolutions 33 and 34 were read and passed.) Resol ution 35, Public In formation Services, (

a) Salaries, $274,500. The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I hope that I am on the right item here. Is this Public In formation Services the area where the go vernment is advertising the different - on med ia and television and rad io and in the press - does the advertising regard ing the governmen t programs that are being carried on? The example I will give is rebate system advert ising, this type of thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister of Consumer Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Chairman , that would be under U(d). MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Could the Min ister tell me what this Public In formation Service is then? Just briefly, Mr. Chairman. NR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, the item before us is Public In formation Services generally and we are talking of 16.17 staff man years which is no increase over last year. The increase in the amoun ts that we are talking about is all due, really, that is, $18, 500 to annual increment and negotia ted general salary increases. There is a $3,200 increase due to a general increase in the cost of offset - of ,200 offset by 6,000 economy and printing news releases on both sides of the same paper.

This is the In formation Services where press releases are prepared for departments but it has nothin g to do with, say, advertising for programs of departments of government. That is where my director indicated that that would be under l(b). I can read the sum mation of the responsibi lity of this area if the hon ourable memb er would so desi re. It is quite extensive and it was contained within the report I tabled in the House. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I would ask the Min ister if he would because I read this when it says, "Nu merous government programs, policies" - and I must smile, Mr.

Chairman - "and achievements." I don' t know what the achievements of the government is but I would certainly like to hear them from the Min ister if I could. MR. TOUPIN: Okay, Mr. Chairman. The In formation ervices Branch functions as the central news and information agency of the Man itoba gov ernment, preparing and distributing factual information about policies, programs and activities of the Provincial Government and various agencies, boards and commissions for the news med ia and the public.

News and information production and dissemin ation is carried out by a sma ll staff cons isting of a director, news editor, rad io editor, television editor, and three informa tion writers, all of whom write for the purpose of information gotten from departments of gove rn ment, news releases and special writing assign ments and handle direct requests for information from the public. The compact ad min istrative writing staff is supported by two clerical persons and a television technician. Also attached to the branch is the government photogra phic

section which handle s the visual communication requirements of all departments for publication, instructional and record purposes, i ncl ud i ng a photog raphic record, for court purposes, of fires investigated by the Fi re Com mission er's Office. This

section has an estab lishment of three photographers, two of which were filled in 1976, including that of a chief photograp her together with a photo librarian and two photo laboratory technicians. The branch has responsi bility for the province's Citizens In quiry Services which we talked about, I believe, at the open ing of the Estimates of this department, CIS, which was launched in 1972 as a gov ernment telephone information and inquiry centre. CIS emplo ys six university students on a one year "working bursary" basis.

While the branch is perhaps best known for its news services which is used as an information source by libraries and indi viduals on its mailing list, in addition to newspapers, radio and television stations, about 40 percent of the branch activity is devoted to other functions involving, in the main, direct requests for information from the public.

The News Service4 The principal function is to keep citizens informed by using established news outlets, through provision of written news releases, feature and photo material to wire services and publications; provision of taped material to the rad io stations and provision of filmed and video-taped material to TV stations. In 1976 · average of 31 news releases were issued each week, 1,633 for the year.

In addition to releases on a daily basis, the week's prod uction is compi led into information packages which are mailed out each Friday to the weekly newspapers and a variety of other news media in Man itoba and across Canada, and to organ izations, mun icipalities, libraries and individu als placed on the mailing list on request. Special articles were prepared for publications with specific · interests such as fina ncial jour nals, construction and transpor tation publications, special supplements and the like. The Radio News Service: This service provides regular and special taped material to rad io 1645

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 stations throug hout the province. An automatic distribution system is available for radio stations outside Winnip eg which allows them to seek information at their conven ience. During 1976, 586 radio tapes and radio news reports were provided. Television News Service: This service provides vide otaped news and public affairs packages which are available to local TV stations as back-up to their own progr amming, to cable TV outlets as complete programs and to out-of-Wi nnip eg V stations to supplement their local news and public affairs prog ramming on a delay basis. During 1976 this

section has videotaped and distributed in unedited form a total of 26 news conferences or other major events in the Legislative Building. In addition the year's prod uction included : seven short news features on a variety of topics, two commercials, four half -hour features for the epartment of Agriculture, two pilot programs for the Department of Tourism , Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and the record ing of seminars on housing and consume rism .

The service operates basically as a three-man production unit headed by the television editor of the In formation Services Branch with a production assistant and a TV broadcast technician. Other technical and pr oduction personnel necessary to a particular project are usually dr awn from other departmenta l commun ications branches. The production unit is based in the Legislative Building but it is equipped with a van for mobile operation. Photography Services: During 1976, the photo

section handle d 2,338 requests for pho togr aphic services from various government departments and agen cies. Total numb er of pri nts made as a result of these assign ments were 39,037. Some 8,436 35mm colour slides were also made. As well the

section copied 2,936 pictures, principally for the Provincial Archives. In the course of the year 0,5 70 negatives and 69 colour transparencies were added to the photog raphic library. In dividual Inf ormation Requests: In formation Services handle d 612 letters of inquiry in 1976. These were mainly from school and university teachers and students se eking a wide variety of information on Manitoba and on va rious aspects of Provincial Govern ment policies and prog rams. Citizens Inquir y Service: The government's central tol l-free inquiry centre hand led about 42,000 calls during the past year.

Callers were seeking information on the programs of all government departments and agencies, advice on access to gove rnm ent and location of specific mem bers of the civil service. CIS under took a numb er of phone surveys on behalf of government agencies on a province-wide or limited area basis. Cataloguing of all provincial government pamphlets and publications available to the public without cost continued. This.service will provide a comprehens ive print reference system for the first time. Publications Prod uction: The branch publishes 'Man itoba Facts" on an annual basis.

This booklet provides a summ ary of the province in such areas as history, gov ern ment, the economy, commun ications, transpor tation, resources and recreation. The Branch also provided assistance or assumed responsi bility for publication on behalf of a numb er of government departments. Other Functions: The branch arranges for a numb er of special events such as sod-turnings and official openi ngs including the new Woodswor th Building in Winnip eg.

If hand led the design and other arrangem ents for a general government disp lay which visited small fairs and exhibitions at a numb er of points dur ing the past season. The dis play was staffed by the Citizens Inq uiry Service. It provided Man itoba representat ion on the Sou ris River Basin Study Public In volvement Program on an ongoing basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resoiution 35(a) . The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I thank him fo rt hat rundo wn . As a matter of fact, it sounds like a very busy bunch.

Do the other departments of gov ernment, like the public information that you spoke of, and I go back to what you were read ing when you said that they did all these publications for other departments of government, in other words, the releases I receive from the Department of Agriculture come through this department? MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Chairman. In most cases they do their own un less it is a policy statement where, say, an Order -in-Cou ncil has passed or a regulation is adopted by Cabinet. In those cases In formation Services would be asked to prepare a press release.

I am informed by my director that in regard to their pamphlets, their information documents, they do their own. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Te n the news service that I receive is not done by this department here. MR. TOUPIN: The news services itself is done by this office, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 35(a) . he Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman , I just have one complaint to raise about the way in which the In formation News Service operates and that is that it seems that MLAs are often the last people to know when some thing is happening in their own constituency and that too often, that we've been informed by way of press media, news releases that are usually three or four days in advance that there is going to be an open ing of a MHRC building in our area. n ap articular casewhere there was a real problem was when the Inn er City Employment Project was annou nced and no information was 1646

Tuesday, April 5, 1977 available to MLAs until several days after and there was a numb er of enquir ies and I really had to phone around to find out what it was all about. t seems to me while I am not so naive to assume that the In fo rmation Service is totall;• untainted by some political interest - governm ent would n't be gove rn ment without it - it would seem that in certain areas there is a requiremen t to ensur e that where there are specific programs that are affecting a dir ect constituency that it would be of some courtesy at least to ensur e that the MLAs who at least theoretically, are supposed to be the intermedia te between gov ernment and people would at least have knowledge on the same day or about the same time. -(I nterjection)- No, the federal gove rnment usually has its materials stole by the pro vin cial gove rnment and annou nced three or fou r days earlier. t is simply something that ould raise with the Minister because on two or three occasions in the past while I know that that has occurred and while I recognize the motive for it, I don' t particularly think that it is the appropriate way to conduct a department which is a civil service department.

It does look at times that there is a miscue, let's put it down to that, simply that the timin g could be more appropriate for MLAs to know before everyone - after - that's really what it works out, almost after everyone else does and therefore are often not in a position to provide their own responsi bilities in ensu ring that people find out what is going on. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, that last comment is certainly well taken in the sense that I have had this complaint presented to me before, not only by memb ers on that side of the House but memb ers on this side of the House, and not by Cabinet Ministers because usually we are aware of what is accepted, rejected or mod ified in Cabinet, but for Orders in Council authorizing expenditur e of funds for the construction, say, of housing in MHRC, it takes a little while for MLAs that are not in Cabinet to someti mes find out.

So I believe that we'll look at the subject matter and the criticism and see what can be done to inform the elected representatives quicker than it is possible now. I think of treating people like I would like to be treated myself and when I land on that side of the House in 1990, I would like to be able to kno w quicker than the honour able memb er now finds out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to add ress a few remarks to the Min ister in connection with the news service, that bulletin that comes to us in the mail.

I wonder, first of all, I under stand it to be a news service, that is, it is reporting factual information to those people who are on its mailing list, what method is undertaken by the publishers of this news service to ensur e that the reports that they receive from departments of govern ment that are given to them as news are factual? Do they just automa tically accept everything that comes from any department of government as presented to them as being ne wswo rthy, or do they make any effort, through their bureau, to check these facts before they are issued in the form of a news service bulletin? MR.

TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I'm informed again by the Dfrector that this is checked and rechecked with the department. But again, if I, as a Minister, decide to put out a press release without consulting with Mr. Smith and his staff, they can't be blamed for, say, information that is not consid ered to be factual later on, and that's always possible. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, then if the Bureau finds subsequently that some information they have published as factual turns out to be in error, does the news service take any steps to correct that information by send ing out a correcting bulletin to say, what we told you in bulletin so-and-so of such-and-such a date was in fact in error and we wish no w to correct the record? MR. TOUPIN: I am told that they always do. MR.

McGILL: Not too recently, but dur ing the period of the last three or fou r years, bulletins came out in relation to the activities of Sau nders Aircraft, particularly from the Department of Ind ustry and Com merce I guess, and they publicized certain sales figur es of units sold to various airlines in the Un ited States which turne d out subsequently to be completely in error, not based on fact at all. But I fail to recall any correction that was ever published for those particular news bulletins. Can the Min ister comment on that? MR. TOUPIN: I'm informed, Mr.

Chairman, that the said releases were not published by In formation Services, not prepared by In formation Services and not released by In formation Services in regard to Saunders. There are two possible sources that the releases could have been authorized by. One is In dustry and Com merce, the other would be the Min ister responsible for the MDC, the Min ister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. McGILL: Well, then, Mr.

Chairman, let me again ask the Min ister to confirm that all the information they receive from various departments of government is 'checked and rechecked?" id you not tell us a mo ment ago that such informa tion, whether you received it from In dustry and Comm erce or MDC or whatever, that your Bureau would take its own steps to ensur e that was factual inform ation? MR. TOUPIN: Well, again, Mr. Chairman , if it's a question of having releases prepared and released by In for mation Services, yes, that statement I made awhile ago stands, that it's checked and dou ble-checked.

But if I, as a Minister, respon sible for Consumer, Corporate and In ternal Services, 1647

Tuesda� Aprtl S, 19 77 or Co-operative Development, or MTS, makes a statement and I don' t give the bare bones to In formation Services to prepare a release, then I can't hold them responsible. What I'm being told here in regard to.-.S aunders, that they did not prepare the statements, so they would not be responsible tor the content. MR.

McGILL: Well then the Minister, whether it be the Min ister of Ind ustry and Comm erce or some other department, did make those statements on behalf of Saunder s and it wou ld then be, I und erstand it, the respon sibility of that Min ister to inform the Bureau that an error had been made and a correction then issued? MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Chairman, it wou ld not be the respons ibility of the Min ister to ask the Bureau, in my understanding, and I would ask Mr.

Smith to correct me if I am wrong, for them to make a correction of a statement that was prepared and issued by a given department, whether that be In d ustry or my own department, but for the department to make the correction, like I've done on cases. Or I've asked papers to make corrections of statements that they've actually printed , that were wron g. But In formation Services would not, in a case where a department issues a press release with a mistake, ask In formation Services to have that mistake corrected that they have not taken the respon sibility to prepare and issue the statement. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sure that I under stand that explanation completely, but I think it would add to the stature and the credibility of the Bureau if statements that have been made are subsequently proven to be incorrect, that some correction be issued. Otherwise, there is apt to be a somewhat dow ngr ading of the whole effort and the authenticity of the reporting of this new service. One other point, Mr.

Chairman, the Member from Fort Rouge, I believe, commen ted on the editoria lizing that creeps into th ese factual reports and as he pointed out, perhaps this canno t be eliminated entir ely, but it seems to me that certain departments manage to include mor e editoria lizing in their information bulletins than others. Again, I recall one from the In dustry and Commerce Department relating to certain strides that had been made in the seed busi ness in their relations with Mexico, all of which subsequently proved to be completely without foun dation. I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if the Min ister can indicate whether or not he has taken any steps to try to prevent that kind of ed itorializin g almost to the point of misinformation from creeping into this service? I think the service would do a much better job if it did attempt to do some careful screening of the kind of reports that are coming into it. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I would love to be able to do what the hon ourable member is sugge sting, but unfortunately there is no way that I, as the Minister respon sible forth is Bureau, force that upon the Free Press, the Tribune, any weeklies.

If we, or any department decides to put out a press release as factual as possible in regard to the given policy or the program in question, there's no way that we can even insist that the rad io station, the television in question, or the newspaper, just take a part of that release. No more so can I force my views upon my colleagues that want to issue their own private press releases without using the services of In forma tion Services, and that happens.

If I'm caught in the hallway, as an examp le, and we've happened to decide on a policy of govern ment, I may talk about the policy of gov ernmen t and without issuing a form al press release and sometimes the Bureau is faulted for this. Well they should not be faulted for releases that they haven't prepared and taken responsibil ity to issue. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member tor Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , it would sound to me that the department receives - now I don' t want to use the word "press release" here, Mr.

Chairman - but news releases from different departments of govern ment and it's their responsibility to see that the news release is carried to the people or the media, wherever it's being mailed to. The Min ister is I think , quite right in saying that he can't control his colleagues and the other Ministers in the departments, but certainly there must be some sort of system whereby a news release comes from a department, that some checking is done.

I would say this only on the basis that as the Min ister in Consumer and Corporate Affairs would not like to see things going out to the public that are not accurate and very very well checked beforehand , - . the Min ister has basically that responsibi lity within his portfo lio, to even be a little bit of a policeman with the rest of his colleagues, if necessary, because he is the policeman to the other people in this province who make releases and do false advertising or some thin g of that nature.

Has he not got any control of that particular system, or maybe put it anoth er way, do you have any way to rap their knuck les? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman , we were doing very well until the Member for Mor ris got in the House. I hope it doesn't hinder the activities as they were going now. First of all, let's put it this way, by all means the statement that I made pertaining to checking and doubl e-checking information submitted to the Bu reau by other dep artments or agencies of gov ernm ent is being done on a regular basis. I'm willing to be somewhat of a police person, but I can't be a dictator. I c

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-33b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 33b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2a447cbf1be906923d4bc29e2204a840211346c5

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