Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 15

February 21, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 369 PK - 1 Before we proceed I would like to welcome to the galleries today the Deputy Mayor, Lloyd Colbourne, councillors Gerald Rowsell and Obadiah Winsor of the Robert's Arm Town Council. I would also like to welcome to the galleries the Central Newfoundland Vice-President of the Newfoundland. and Labrador Federation of Labour, Mr. Dan Hiscock, and the CLC representative, Mr. Cyril Strong. MR. E.W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, t think you omitted to welcome to the galleries the M~yor of Carmanville, Captain Collins.

MR. SPEAKER: It was not brought to my attention. I woulp like to extend a welcome to this gentleman as well. MOTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. H. R. V. EARLE (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce the following act: "An Act Further To Amend The City Of St. John's Acti" A bill, "An Act Further To Amend the City of St John's Act and a bill, "An Act To Raise A Loan For Municipal Purposes By the Issue of Bonds." TION. T. A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Hon. the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Wildlife Act." REPORTS OF STANDINr. AND SELECT COM1ITTEES MR. SPEAKE.R: The Hon. the Minister of Finance. HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table in the House the 1190

Tape 370 RH - 1 re-port for 1973 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited. The honourable gentleman would not understand it and the computer would not understand him. It is for the year ending March 31, 1973. I would like to say when presenting the report, Mr. Speaker, that Mr.

Harold Miller who is the new president of that crown corporation for a year now has done an excellent job there and we have very much in mind the need for them to move from where they are, in the basement of Elizabeth Towers,to more suitable quarters which we hope will be arranged in the next year or two and new spaces arranged for government services generally. They are doing an excellent job under very difficult conditions in the basement of Elizabeth Towers where they were placed by t~e last administration.

There will be copies made available for all members except the member for Bell Island who cannot understand it. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I only have one or two questions today. The Minister of Fisheries was going to get me some information yesterday, Sir, on a paid political broadcast involving civil servants by his depart­ ment. Would the minister care to give me the information now? A_'fi HONOURABLE MEMBER: Order paper. MR. NF.ARY: No, No. The minister said yesterday he would get the in- formation today. MR. H.

COLLINS (Minister of Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member asked yesterday about some of the broadcasts which are taking place on the VOCM network across the Province which is an information programme for fishermen. Sometimes officials of the department appear, sometimes federal officials appear on the programme, always in the interest of the fishermen,providing information to them, The department funds the pro­ gral!Dlles, pays a sum directly to VOCM for it. I think it works out to about five dollars per minute. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Is George MacLean 1191

February 21, 1974. Tape 370 RH - 2 or any other public relations firm in any way involved in this matter? Do they do negotiating with the radio station or does the minister's de­ partment do the negotiating directly? MR. COLLINS: The work is done by the department, Mr. Speaker, through the Newfoundland Information Services and VOCU. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Mines and Energy - I asked this question before, Sir, and I got information from the Premier, I think it was but now the new story that I read today contradicts what I was told in this honourable Rouse.

Is there or is there not a shortage of fuel in Gander? MR. SPEAKER: The . honourable Minister of Mines and Energy._ HON. L. D. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, my department has no direct involvment with the running of the Gander Airport but we have had representation from the Mayor of Gander and our Government has been working in an attempt to obtain additional supplies of fuel.

There is, as I understand it, and the only information that has been given to me is that there is adequate fuel to meet the needs of existing customers and the normally contemplated flights that would, in the ordinary course of events, be landing at Gand~r. I under­ stand that there is no shortage, that the suppliers who are there can meet the customers that they reasonably can foresee will be landing at Gander. However, I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that the concern of the coucil and the concern of our Government is obviously,as well - to see if we can get additional supplies of aviation fuel to encourage additional flights. I understand that because of internat~onal shortages of fuel and possibly other reasons there are mo r e flights which want to land at Gander and which would like to be able to abtain supplies of fuel at Gander than there has been in the past.

I understand that the existing suppliers say that they have a limited allocation of fuel, they only have so much and although they can meet the existing customers demand they do not have enough to just meet the demands of any airlines that decide to start stopping off at Gander. So this is what we are working for, Mr. ~peaker, to attempt to get 1192

February 21, 1974. Tape 370 RH .- 3 additional supplies of aviation fuel, so tha,t we can encourage the growth of Gander and the economy of the Central Newfoundland Area. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker , the minister is begiuning to talk like a Frenchman. He talks with his hands, Do I interpret from the answer the honourab le minister gave that if the flights, the nwnber of flights throug h Gander are down, it is not because of a shortage pf fuel 1193

February 21, 1974, Tape 371, Page 1 -- apb in Gander but because of the shortage in some other part of the world? Is it correct then to say that what the airlines ,"111 do is top off their - they will come to Gander with a part of a load and then top-off their fuel tanks in Gander'l Is this the intention? HON. L.D.BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleinan may be right but I have not been aware of the fact that flights are down at Gander, This is not the information that has come to me.

The information that has come to me is that Gander may be losing flights, losing additional business that it could get,because of the limited supply of additional aviation fuel. It has never been brought to my attention that flights at Gander are down from where they have been in previous years. That may be the case. I stand to be corrected but that is not the information I have at the present time, MR. NEARY: I thank the honourable minister for the information, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary question: I wonder if the minister could tell us if any of this additional fuel is going to be used for charter flights carrying people from Newfoundland to the Bahamas or will any of the fuel be transported to the Bahamas so that the flight can turn around and refuel in the Bahama,s and return to Newfoundland? Is there anything of that nature involved in the additional fuel? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that is not something that I think any normal, reasonable individual would expect our department to become involved in.

We are not going to get involved in the running of every aspect of airline business. If the honourable gentleman wants to ask a more specific question I will attempt to answer it. MR. NEARY: Well, I will ask. If the minister wants me to make it more pointed, Will any of this additional fuel that the minister just spoke a·bout be used by E.P.A. to· operate their charter flights this spring to the Bahamas and will any of the fuel be sent to the Bahamas 1194

February 21, 1974, Tape 371, Page 2 -- apb so they can refuel to get their flights back to Newfoundland? Could the minister give me the answer to that question? MR. MORGAN: Put it on the Order Paper. MR. EVANS: He will get extradited if he goes there. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that is not - a question that I can give the honourable gentleman the answer to. The honourable gentleman will have to direct that question to the management of the Gander Airport or to the airline. in question. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the member for White Bay South: MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, we are almost afraid to ask a question the Minister of Finance is so aggressive there today. Would the honourable Minister of Forestry inform the House, Sir, as he undertook to do yesterday, what is the name of the fin1 which is doing these advertisements in the paper and on television and'on radio for his department? What is the estimated cost or if there is a firm contract already signed, what is the price in the contract between his department or any other department and this particular firm? HON. E.MAYNARD (Minister of Agriculture and Forests): Mr.

Speaker, I ha~e not had the opportunity this morning to get any further information which I offered ,the House yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista North: MR. PAUL S.THOMS: Mr, Speaker, could I direct a question to the Mini.ster of Agriculture and Forests? Could the minister inform this honourable House if there are any plans within his department to either enlarge on the present abattoir we have at Pleasantville or to build a new one either around St. John's or anywhere on the Avalon Peninsula? MR. MAYNARD: There is some indication, Mr.

Speaker,that we may be able to get private enterprise involved in the processing of broilers and hogs in the Avalon Peninsual Area. If this is the case then we will certainly go that route. If we are sure that a private enterprise will not become involved then we have to take a look at the possible expansion by government, although this is not something that we are anxious to get into. We would rather for private enterprise to handle the business. 1195

February 21, 1974, Tape 371, Page 3 -r apb MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North: MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications: Has the minister-been able to get the information that he indicated he would get on Tuesday in connection with whether or not officials of his department 1.n St. Anthony and Deer Lake, St. Barbe, bad made representation to the minister for the purpose of getting additional snow-clearing machinery into the District of St. Barbe North? HON. T. V.HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): No, Mr.

Speaker, I have had no indication from any of my people that there are an inadequate number of pieces of equipmemt 1190 ·

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 372 Pagel - MW in that area, contrary to what the honourable gentleman suggests. Since the day before, I have talked ~1th my district director in Deer Lake and a number of other officials in the department and I am told that the number of pieces of equipment have increased. There are a number of pieces of equipment on back order that we have not been able to get during the past year. They have not been delivered yet. This applies to the whole province. Mr. Speaker, I am also told that the level of service in the Great Northern Peninsula Area this year is better than ever.

My staff in the area are completely satisfied. The other day when the honourable gentleman asked me if I had received any communication with regard to this matter, I told him no and I want to correct that now. While my answer to him was correct and true from my point of view, I had not seen his letter. I have since signed a reply to him in which I dealt with the matter of any employess of mine in that area who indicate a shortage of equipment. If they have indicated to him, Mr. Speaker, they certainly have not indicated to their superiors.

I see nothing • wrong with our people discussing the situa~ion with the honourable gentleman who is concerned. Certainly, I find it very strange that this kind of statement would be made by one of my employees and yet when it comes to their superiors, they are quite satisfied with the number of pieces of equipment in the area. The other information I would like to give at this time is that the roads in the general area of the Great Northern Peninsula were closed due to a severe storm; the worst in twenty years I am told. The schools in St.

Anthony were closed, not because of the highway not being plowed but in' fact because of the storm. Even if the roads had been open; the schools would still have been closed. There have been no breakdowns in equipment which would have resulted in our people not working during this storm. They did not work because they could not see,and that is the policy. 1191

February 21, 1974 Tape no,. 372 Page 2 MR. M. WOODWARD: I would like to direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. I wonder if the honourable minister could inform the House if he had arranged a meeting and the time of the meeting in Ottawa with the federal officials concerning his proposal on the Trans Labrador Highway? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am prompted - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. HICKEY: I am prompted, Mr.

Speaker, to suggest to the honourable g~ntleman that instead of directing this question repeatedly to me that he use his good offices with his Liberal friends in Ottawa and get them to get together and provide me with a date that they are going to be in Ottawa and we will be ready to go. I told him, I think last week or the week before, that we have repeatedly each week attempted to set up this meeting but unfortunately we cannot get Mr. Marchand and Mr. Jamieson in Ottawa at the one time to get together with us.

I assure the honourable member that I will announce to the House the minute that there is a meeting set up. We are certainly as much interested or more than he is, if that be possible, in getting this meeting going, getting this project going. The minute I have that information, I will pass it on. He might be able to help. I have not been chatting with those fellows. MR. WOODWARD: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: I would like to ask the minister if he is serious about arranging a meeting? Maybe I can assist in that way.

If the honourable minister is serious about me helping to arrange a meeting, maybe I can assist the honourable minister in arranging a meeting, if the honourable minister is serious? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, we never turn down any one who is willing to help. This is not a partisan project. It is a project affecting 1198

February 21, 1974 • Tape no. 372 Page 3 - MW the-whole province. The honourable gentleman surely on behalf of his constituents in his district, · the great landmass of Labrador and irtdeed the whole province, does not need an invitation from. me o-r this govenunent .to assist us. By all means we welcome the honourable member with open arms. Anything the honourable member can do, i~ the honourable med>er can get those ewo gentlemen togethe .r • (we have been unable to do it) , if the honourable member can do it, great. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! 1199 ~ ..

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 373 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Would the minister inform the House if he received a brief today from the Newfoundland Federation of Labour? HON. J. ROUSSEAU, Hi.nis ter of Manpower and Indus trial Relations: Sir, I have a ninety minute time limit to answer that question. I did. MR. NEARY: My next question, Mr.

Speaker, would the minister indicate to the House just what his government intends to do about the controversial Royal Commission Report on Work Stopag~s? _ Do they intend to bury it as has been reco=ended by the Newfoundland Federation of Labour? MR. ROUSSEAU: The report has been in for a while now and we are looking at it in the department.

We are very pleased that the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour brought in their brief this morninr, with their views on the Royal Commission on Illegal Work Stopages, this government has stated it on numerous occasions and this minister has stated on numerous occasion that we are prepared to talk to anybody at any time when they are questioning the effect of legislation which will be directly concerned with their activities in the province, certainly everything that the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labrador,with which we had a very frank and very amiable discussion this morning.

A report they brought to our attention will be given careful consideration. I am sure that we will try and work out something where everybody will be able to live with the results of . the meeting this morning and the on-going meeting that will be held in the near future. MR. NF..ARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations could inform the House the date of the international conference that was announced by the Premier some time ago on ille~al work stopaRes. MR. ROUSSEAU: I w111 have to make note of that one. I have been out ·------- 1200

February 21, 1974 Tape, No. 3 73 NM - 2 of the office for about six weeks and i:: has lapsed during that time. MR. NEARY: This was six months ago. MR. ROUSSEAU: All I can answer now is what r-knew before I left and it may have changed then,so do not accuse me of misleading the House at that time. What we suggest to them, after talking about it was that it would be better held in the spring. This was the concensus of opinion we had and also there is a question of course of protocal in respect to the labour movement.

You have to move in certain circles, the proper spokesman have to be identified and they have been identified.and have to be informed and streamlined'. So right now it looks, the last I heard was that we would hope for possibly a spring meeting. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could inform the House when he intends to set up the advisory committee on labour management relations in this province as was indicated by the minister some months ago? MR. SPEAKER: I suggest that question to be placed on the Order Paper. MR. ROUSSEAU: One second if I may, Mr. Speaker - MR.

SPEAKER: If the honourable minister wants to answer the question - MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not want to answer the question, I want him to tell me what committee he is talking about. MR. NEARY: Advisory Committee on Labour Management Relations, the minister spoke about it several months ago, MR. ROUSSEAU: Labour Management Consultant Committee1 MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. ROUSSEAU: That has been set up. MR. NEARY: Has it? Well I wonder if the minister could tell us the names· of the members of that committee? MR. ROUSSEAU: Not ·off hand, I could get them for him. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. ROUSSEAU: I will get them for him• MR.

NEARY: All• right, the minister is going to get me the 1201

February 21, 1974 Tave.No. 373 NM - 3 information. Mr. Speaker, just a very small question for the Minister of Fisheries: I do not know if this comes under the Minister of Fisheries or not, I can only assume that it does, Sir, so I will put the question to the minister anyway. Will the minister infonn the House what steps_ his government is taking to try and save the seal fishery in this province, the counter - propoganda campaign that has been carried on by New Brunswick.er Brian Davies. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. HON. H. COLLINS,. Minister of Fisheries: Mr.

Speaker, it ·should go on the Order Paper but I cannot pass up this opportunity, where we are talking about a Davies and a Davis here.

One Davies is trying to do away with it and letting people know about it and the other fellow is trying to do away with it and hiding behind Davies, If the honourable member wants to really do something about the seal fishery in Newfoundand and protect the seal fishery and try and permit more of our fishermen to make a dollar off the seal fishery, then let him start working on Jack Davis, not Brian Davies, start working on Jack Davis who is the Liberal Minister of Fisheies in Ottawa. That is the right place for the question to be asked, 1202

FEBRUARY 21, 1974 Tape 374 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker. AN HON. HEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I d.id not !Jlean for the ministe.r _to get nasty, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: All I wanted the minister to do was indicate to the House what steps the government are taking to counteract the propaganda campaign that is being waged by Brien Davies. It seems to have influenced people all around the world. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: What steps are the government taking to counteract this? MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, there is some wisdom I suppose in what the honourable member is saying that sPmething should be done to counteract the terrible publicity which has been given to Brian Davies·and his group. We have made representation · to the federal government and we will continue to do so. Hopeful! as this session moves along and people speak in this debate,then more and more ~"111 we make our voices heard to Mr. Jack-Davis to try and do something about this very serious problem. MR. NF.ARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, do I interpret,the minister's answer then as meaning that the government are doing nothing about this? MR.

COLLINS: I just ~aid what we are do~ng. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: In the Address in Reply I think the honourable the Member for Fogo adjorned the debate the last day. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I promised the honourable members across the floor that if they will be good boys, pay · attention to what I have to say and stay in their seats,I will -not detain this House very long with my remarks. AN HON. }'.EMBER: Inaudible. 1203

February 21, 1974 Tape 374 PK - 2 MR. WINSOR: They are more in number. Then we can get down to more serious business of this House bringing more legislation before us so we can do more of .really what we were sent here to do. Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to join other members in congratulating the honourable members for Bonavista South and Harbour Grace for moving and seconding the Address in Reply. I am sure the honourable members would have been very happy indeed had they had more substantial docwnent upon which to dwell. Mr. Speaker, I have the utmost respect for the office from which the speech came.

I cannot at the same time refrain from stating that I was very disappointed in the speech. As a matter of fact, I think it was one of or if not the most disappointing documents that I have heard read since I have been a member of this honourable House. Mr. Speaker, I am not being critical just for the sake of being critical or merely because I am in opposition.

I believe that all of ~he honourable members of the House will agree that never before have so many being so consistent in their criticism As one of the public media so aptly put it; surely it is time for the present government to stop putting the blame on the previous administration for its inability and come forth with effective government policies. Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to get into the controversy which brought about the resignation of Mr. Saunders. I think there is an element of doubt in most people~ minds surroundinp, Mr. Saunders resignation.

I think to clear those doubts then the government should appoint a commission or an enquiry to find out exactly what happened. I am a r;reat believer, Mr. Speaker, in the prophecies of the Old Testament and one of the prophecies is that there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed and the secrets shall he shouted from the housetops. I am sure, Hr. Speaker, I am sure as night follows day that the secret surrounding Mr. Saunders resignation will ue revealed, whether it is six months from now, one year or two years. I think the sooner it is done the better it will be for all concerned. AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. 1204

February 21, 1974 • Tape no. 375 Page 1 - MW It 1s intcre~ting to note, Mr. Speaker, the theme that kept coming through the speech: "My government intend to do . this and to do that." My question is, Mr. Speaker: How much more time can the government take to make up its mind to actually do something? Mr. Speaker, from a quick survey of at least three Speeches from th~ Throne of the present administration, great references were made toward the fishery.

I would like to bring to the attention of the House that first speech made on ~larch 1,1972, which is noted as a political manifesto, read by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Part of that speech refers to the fisheries. "The Department of Fisheries will be greatly expanded immediately so that it can provide much greater assistance and infonuation to the fishermen of this Province.

The Department will be dramatically increased in size, many new Divisions established, and many new services implemented, so that it will reflect the importance my Government places on fishing as one of the major industries in the Province." Mr. Speaker, following that speech in April the same year, we read: "My Government wishes to reiterate its position regarding the statements made in the Speech from the Throne at the opening of the Thirty-Fifth General Assembly dealing with Marine Fishery Resources.

My Government is concerned about the lack of protection afforded to our fishermen who endeavouring legitimately to obtain a rightful share of our offshore fishery resources." Then,Hr. Speaker, we go on and on and each speech refers less and less to the fisheries. A close look at the wording of the present speech will give plenty of evidence as to how uncertain the government are. I quote: "In the past year much has been done to expand the programme." Mr. Speaker, ask any fisherman how much is that much.

The speech notes that the project of building roads was begun and the government plans to continue the programme this year. I notice it does not say it will. 1205

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 375 Page 2 The speech continues with many more things that the government expect to do. Will it be done? If so, what kind of positive and effective programmes will result? This is the information that our fishennen would like to hear. As any other fisherman wo~ld say: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." I am very much concerned about the fact that in spite of the many fine sentences and glowing promises that have been made in at -least the last three Speeches from the Throne, the vast majority of our fishermen continue to be unsatisfied, uncertain and troubled.

The inshore fishery is in serious trouble. Our fishermen are very bewildered. No one seems to know with certainty what is going on. The Premier by his own admission admitted that he is very disappointed at the slow and almost no progress the government have made toward the fishery. A lot of fishermen who helped vote this government to power and who were expecting revolutionary things to happen in the fishery have been let down. They are expecting a genuine effort on the part of the government to improve their lot and assist the industry. In spite of the promises made by this government nothing, Mr.

Speaker, of any significance has been forthcoming. If the government do not take some positive action quickly to assist the inshore fishermen, either by introducing some form of catch failure or guaranteed income and, of course, to use their good office to influence the federal government to amend the unemployment 'insurance benefit, Newfoundland and Labrador will be faced with a sad reality of awakening one morning with our inshore fishery slowly deteriorating to a point where we will have a very few fishermen interested in carrying on that industry.

The government contii:iue to flounder with inactivlty and without positive approach to improve the lot of our fishermen. The Hon. Minister of Fisheries has on numerous occasions excused his lack of a sound fishery policy on the grounds that the fishery is 1206

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 375 Page 3 a federal responsibility. We all know that the more broad, general policies relating to the fisheries do come under federal jurisdiction. Surely, Mr. Speaker, every fisherman in this province know full well that the provincial government h~ve full responsibility for the development of the means whereby fishermen can catch fish, for the resources that our fishermen need to harvest the product of our waters.and to see that they have suitable facilities to increase their catch. These responsibilities the provincial government cannot shift to the federal government. ~r.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words about conservation. I cannot emphasize too strongly the need for the provincial government to be in the forefront in the matters of advocating the strongest possible conservation measures. There are so many difference species of our fish in our offshore waters that are in immediate danger of being completely destroyed, I do not need to go into detail but merely to say that various kinds of fishing that were a boom just a few years ago are now being extinct.

It is very important at this time for all our fishermen to be made fully aware of the fact that the fish stocks in our offshore waters are not inexhaustable and that they must be prepared to co-operate fully in conservation measures. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the basic need of the momen.t is for a massive educational progralllll1e for all of our fishermen, This programme should be designed to inspire in our fishermen the desire to come to grips with the fact that catching fish today is a highly competitive business.

Our techniques and approaches must match those of other countries or otherwise we arc likely to be on the losing end. I should say we are likely to continue to be on the losing end. This is the kind of programme that we should get immediately. It is the kin'd of direct responsibility that calls for leadership on the part of the provincial government, Some honourable members may say that we have a Fishery College and 1207

February 21, 19.74 Tape no. 375 Pa~e 4 that is the job for it. Now I do not think that this should be the college's full responsibility, although I am sure that it can play a

part in the pro~amme. .The programme must go beyond the walls of the college. It must reach out to every fishing co111111Unity in the Island and in Labrador. Sir, I am convinced that the fishery can be a sufficient factor in this province but it may not be unless we are convinced that it can be. Mr. Speaker,. the speech referred to the construction of deep water fishing boats and that those boats will permit, improve and increase the employment opportunities. What kind of a guarantee do we have of this? I suggest that unless .we have the men who want to participate in deep water fi-shing then many of our catch allocations 1203

February 21, 1974, Tape 376, Page 1 -- apb will go unused. I might add here, Mr. Speaker, that many of our inshore fishermen are very much concerned about the extra deep­ water fishing vessels that the government porpose to construct and put in operation. They feel and -I am speaking from what I can gather from the inshore fishermen, they feel that this will be another danger and will cut down on their catches and will not do the inshore fishery very much good.

However, I still think that we do have an obligation, that this province has an obligation to catch some of the fish and to try to make up our quota which now will be, in a few years - if we do not catch that quota, other countries will do it and Newfoundland will be the loser. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. WINSOR: If we are going to make fishing a viable industry with a profitable outlook for the men involved, then we are going to have to take positive steps to encourage and to make it worthwhile for our fishermen to participate, both in approach and technique. I would suggest further, Mr.

Speaker, let us not be slow to go to Ottawa for what is rightly ours but let us not blame them for lack of developmental policies that are rightly a provincial responsibility. Mr. Speaker, at this point I would like to offer an idea to the honourable Minister of Fisheries. Now that the government have been assured of $100 million per year for ten years from expenditures of DREE funds in the province, on conditions,of course, that acceptable programmes can he advanced, it might indeed be the opportune time for what I am going to propose. I propose, Mr.

Speak.er, that the government would select certain areas throughout the province and apply to them progra1In11es, policies and finances that will make them model communities or areas of occupational development. I am quite serious when I put forth my own District of Fogo as an example. for what I have in mind. The fishery in Fogo District should be developed to its maximum for six or seven months of the year since the climate and weather conditions make that the limit of time that fishing can be carried out. The area should be made attractive from 1209

February 21. 1974, Tape 376, Page 2 -- apb a social, cultural and educational point, so that young men and women will want to stay in the area and will want to make a good living and raise their families. It will mean, Mr. Speaker, that the government will have to provide all of the modern conveniences. Roads, better coDDDunications, water and sewerage in addition to the development of the fishery. ~ am thinking of Fogo District now but there must be many other districts with similar conditions.

It should be possible to develop a number of other occupational activities for profitable employment throughout the winter months, An obvious one in Fogo District and more especially on the mainland part of the district in the Carmanville Area and the Gander Bay Area where we should encourage lumbering, more sawmills, greenhouses, fanning, sheep raising and many others. With the right kind of encouragement and leadership I am sure that this kind of development is possible. Mr. Speaker, we cannot continue to educate our young men and women away from the basic industries of this province.

My suggestion is that we should use every possible opportunity that we may now have to demonstrate that many areas of our province can be developed and to make them attractive enough for our young people to want to live and work there. Let us use a sizeable part of our DREE allocations to show that it can be done. This,Mr. Speaker, leads me into another topic, that of the development of our tourist industry. Tourism is fast becoming a greater and more profitable asset to this province. The potential is almost unlimited.

If we are wise enough to develop the tourist industry in the same and well planned manner, then we will reap the full benefit. Here I would like to repeat a warning which I have given before. Let us not allow our precious lakes, streams, forests and waten.ays to be co111111ercialized to the detriment·of our citizens. The immediate fast buck can be very attractive and we can be certain that there will be those who will be eager and anxious to set themselves up in a fflonoply position, I would strongly suggest, Mr, Speaker, 1210

February 21, 1974, Tape 376, Page 3 -- apb that the Ministry of Transport should carefully avoid developing tourist programmes that will in a few years see our people having to buy back,in commercialized form, our pr~sent wide-open and unspoiled beauty. I regret to say that this has happened in a few instances. I have heard and as a matter of fact I know that our province is probably the only unspoiled tourist attraction left in North America. This is so. I hope that we can keep it in that way. What has happened elsewhere should not be permitted to happen here and it should be a warning to us.

I cannot let the opportunity pass to refer to my District of Fogo. The islands, the inlets, the bays, the Straight Shore, the charming communities of the district offer a real paradise for the tourist. The natural attractions are there in abundance. I would like to see the Department of Tourism set up a priority of measures that can be taken to attract tourists to such areas as Fogo District. I would hasten to warn, Hr. Speaker, that very few tourists will travel over dusty roads more than once. Not only will they not travel but they will certainly discourage other tourists doing so.

The dusty and potholed roads are certainly not an encouragement for the tourist industry. The unique friendliness, the natural beauty, the quietude of our outport Newfoundlander,as important as that is, and it is very obviously so, especially in Fog~ District. is no substitute for choking dust especially during the tourist season. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Tourism use whatever influence he has with the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

I do not think he has to use too much persuasive power to make the }1inister of Transportation and Communications realize that this is a very important matter,and he should go all out to upgrade and pave as many roads as possible in this province because. Sir, tourists 1 as I said before, will not be satisfied to travel over dusty roads with choking conditions especially on a hot sununer day. 1211

February 21, 1974, Tape 376, Page 4 -- apb I want to refer, Mr. Speaker, to some of the basic necessities in Fogo District. Upgrading and paving of roads is one of the utmost 1212

February 21, 1974. Tape 377 RH - 1 . requests in all of the districts, I suppose. Last year an attempt was made to pave the Gander Bay North and South road, Unfortunately, the work had to be discontinued because it was stated- the season was too late. but it was not too late in other parts of Newfoundland even in the latter part of November. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

WINSOR: The equipment was - I am not too sure whether it was taken from there but certainly some equipment that could have been used in the Carmanville-Gander Bay area was moved to Hermitage and I would suspect that that is the r.eason why that job was not completed. There was I think a legitimate excuse for not continuing to pave the community of Carmanville. They are installing water and sewerage there and the good judgment of the council there, the mayor and councillors there, I think felt that it wouid be much better to lay the water and sewerage down before the pavement was completed.

I hope on the north side of Gander Bay, the upgrading and paving will be continued to take in Horwood and Stoneville and on the south side of the Bay to take in Davidsville, Frederickton and Carmanville and all of those settlements but I am not too much concerned or worried about those communities now, Mr. Speaker because the honourable member for Grand Falls, I wish he were in his seat this afternoon, he has taken another role upon him and that is to go around and solicit petitions from those areas to bring about, so he thinks, better conditions, road conditions in the area. Mr.

Speaker, when the honourable member for Grand Falls got bo·oted out of the cabinet when he got rejected by the Premier and by his cab .inet colleagues, he did not have the spunk or the backbone to resign from the district and I think this is what was in the Premier's mind when he booted him out of the cabinet 8 because of his inability, lack of knowledge or what­ ever, he was booted out and as I say rejected. He should have resigned then. He should have resigned then because I thjnk that was the intention to get him out of the House of Assembly. The Premier had detected that he 1213

February 21, 1974. Tape 377 RH - 2 . was of no further help to him in Grand Falls. However, be did accept the job as organizer for the P.C. Party and he tried his hand there as well. He went t~ Hermitage. He organized the organization up there and another failure. So, Mr. Speaker, I consider and this is my personal opinion, I consider the honourable member for Grand Falls as a washed-up politician. MR W.N. ROWE: Now he is being the "Cry Baby" because the open-line show - MR WINSOR: Did he join that list? I was not aware that he had joined that list as well. That is another point, Mr. Speaker.

What makes the Opposition so sensitive? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The government. MR. WINSOR: It is the government, the government. Sir, the opposite side, excuse me! The government members are so sensitive to any criticisms that might appear in the press. We had the honourable Minister of Finance. We had the honourable Minister of Social Services. We had the member for Grand Falls 1 I think the member for Bonavista South, so touchy, so sensitive. If their names are uttered in any form of a critical way - attack the media.

The Hon. the Premier called the "Telegram" a "yellow rag", kicked the reporter off the eight floor. What is wrong with the Government members? Mr. Speaker, did they not realize when they were elected to this honourable House that they would be subject to all of those kinds of criticisms? That is the name of the game and if we cannot take that criticism, very often it is for the good, then we have no right to sit here. I was speaking of the pavement, Mr. Speaker, on the mainland part of the district. Now, I refer to Fogo Island and the road to Joe Batt's Arm and Tilting has been in a deplorable condition all year.

I have al­ ready presented petitions to have this road upgraded and paved. Most of the material, at least in crushed stone form, is already on the 1slan~ and I would suggest that the minister make good use of this before a lot of it disappears, to upgrade and complete the job that we had started on Fogo Island.to pave the roads as well as paving the roads through Musgrave llarbour and Lumsden on the mainland sicle. 1214

February 21, 1974. Tape 377 RH - 3 I would like to see the work continued that was started on Cha~ge Islands last fall. The road was improved there, upgraded an'd improved, whereby neople can use their vehicles and the school bus now can, at least, operate satisfactory. I think the honourable Minister of Trans­ portation and Communications accommodated a delegation from Change Islands yesterday and they were much concerned about being cut off during the winter season by the fact that no ferry operates to Change Islands during the winter season.

Their request to the Minister of Transportation was to have a road constructed across the Island. If that road were constructed across the Island it would enable a ferry to operate_ between Change Islands end and Farewell or Tubbs Island. It is not an unreasonable request, Mr. Speaker, it is one I think which could be done to provide facilities for those poor unfortunate people now who are completely isolated. I recall the Minister of Justice stating once that people had a right to live in a community of their choosing. Right! Absolutely right: AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How long is the road? MR WINSOR: Seven miles.

Seven to eight miles. The honourable Minister of Justice having made that statement saying that people had a right to live in any community of his choice will surely now that he is in Govern­ ment take some of the responsibility of not only having the people to live in a community of their choice but he should undertake to provide . them with the proper facilities in order that they may live in this day of our social way of living· and be provided with the communities leading up to more com­ fort and better means of transportation and communications. Mr.

Speaker, the needs of Fogo district are similar, I am sure,to . . those of other districts. Some of the major concerns relate to water and sewer in communities such as Fogo, Joe Batt's Arm and Seldom and Tilting. At Fogo, I must remind the honourable minister who has seen fit to leave his seat that they have had an amount of $500,000 sitting in the bank at Fogo for the past two and·a-half years,made available through the former Liberal Government to enable them to install water and sewerage. 1215

Febru~ry 21, 1974. Tape 377 RH - 4 Unfortu~atcly, the minister, who I may add is a native son of Fogo, has not seen fit to use his influence with the Clean Air and Water Authority for permission for the Town Council of Fogo to install that system. I urge Ul)On him now, if he wants to hold his prestige in his home town, to take the responsibility to h.ave this matter resolved so that the project c.an get off the ground this sUJ:11Der.

I also request him to make sufficient funds available so that the communities of Lumsden, Musgrave Harbour and Carmanville can complete and install theinstallation of water and sewer which was begun in their town at Carmanville a year and a-half ago or two years ago, Lumsden before and Musgrave Harbour before that. 1216 .• ,..

February 21, 1974 Tape 378 Lack , of good drinking water in most of the communities in Fogo District is a matter of great concern. PK - 1 Now,Mr. Speaker, we have heard of an out break of diphtheria in many communities around our island and in Labrador. Sir, if the Minister of Municipal Affairs, if he doe~ not come up with some more available money to have artesian wells in many coll1I!lunities I am very much afraid before very long we may have an epidemic of typhoid. That can easily happen with poor drinking wather or contaminated drinking water.

Last year the minister made available to the whole district the paltry sum of $5,000 for the whole district. He had the nerve to put the onus on the member to decide which communities for which this money would be spent. The minister must surely be aware that with all of the best planning possible that that amount of money for twenty­ five or more communities would not provide enough money for the few hens that are in those communities to drink. We all know that hens are not very heavy drinkers.

Other needs of the district are for improved and more modern fishing facilities, especially along The Straight Shore and the Frederickton Area and then on to Fogo and Change Islands. If the fishermen are expected to produce a good quality of fish and maintain the present market, they must have facilities that will make this possible. I have made representation to both the federal and provincial governments to carry out the necessary surveys . to ascertain what kind of facilities that are best suited for this particular area. Again, Mr.

Speaker, I urge upon the government the need of ) a processing plant on Fogo Island . , so that the people will be able to take full advantage of the raw materials which thcy,the fishermen, bring to shore. What is happening now on Fogo Island.many . species of fish are brought in, it is taken,part of it, goes to the salt fish plant, the rest of it is exported off Fogo Island to other parts of ~he province -\hereby taking the labour which should held on Fogo IRland to give more employment, in order that the people may be able to improve their lot, 1217

February 21, 1974 Tape 378 PK - 2 It is taken away from Fop,o Island to other areas and the other areas are enjoying the benefit of the toil of the fishermen of Fogo Island. I strongly urge the minister and I am sure he has an interest in this, as a matter of fact I have reason to believe that he is quite concerned and would like to be able to come up with something, some kind of a small processing plant whereby this thing will not continue to happen on Fogo Island. Because, Sir, if it continues to happen what will happen on Fogo Island is that within a few years Fogo Island will not be ab~e to survive.

I am pleased that the plant on Change Island which is only a small plant is in operation. The future of that plant of course depends on the availability of fish products. For the short time that it was in operation last year it certainly made a difference to the economy of the island. I feel sure that a plant on Fogo Island will without a doubt stablize the economy of the area. More and more recreational facilities are needed in the whole district. Because, Mr. Speaker, if we are going to train good minds then we must have a strong and sound body on which to build.

The young people of today are more sports-minded than they were a few years ago. They are not like we were when we were growing up. Every afternoon when I came out of school there was always a chore laid out for me, whether it was to saw wood, bring water or go in the twine loft to pick out knots for my father. There was always something to do but when it became to late to do those chores then we were told if we wanted an hour out on the ,pond or out on the harhour we could do so. It is not like that anymore, Mr. Speaker.

All of the youth today are very interested and are most all involved in some kind of sport but in order for them to take adva~t~g~ and compete as their ambitions are to compete with other co11U11unities in Honavista North and in Fogo District and in Gander Bay especially,where they have that great metropolis at Gander. ¥.any of the boys who play hockey have to go to Gander, if not for the games certainly for practice. 1218

February 21, 1974 Tape 378 PK - 3 Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a brief reference to the subject of vocational schools, a subject which bears a very close relationship to some of the things that I have already said. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that with proper _planning we should be able to use our vocational and training centres that will help our young men and women to adapt to the changing conditions and changing attitudes.

The important of trades and technical education can never be over emphasized but I would like to see more importance placed on vocational problems that will convince our young men and women that they can live a good life and earn a good living in and around our outport communities. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that so many of our vocational programmes are geared to giving the training that almost automatically take the youth away from their home co111111unities. So many of our communities of today need trained and skilled trade&men. All too often, they are not in the places where they are needed. Mr.

Speaker, the House will recall the year before last the Premier making his great announcement as to the restructuring of government. AN HON. MEMBER: That died a fast death. MR. WINSOR: Well the restructuring was suppose to be the greatest event in our political history. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WINSOR: I would venture to say, Mr. Speaker, that ninety-nine per cent of the people of this province did not even know that restructuring was necessary or was needed, fertainly not the kind that we have seen. The Premier referred to it as the restoration of Democracy. Mr.

Speaker, if that is the kind of Democracy we have to witness from here on in, God Bless Democracy. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, what restructuring has meant to people from the outports coming in to visit departments of government. Laat fall I had the experience of meeting a gentleman from around the bay who came in here l'ooking for the Department of Fisheries. He met some guard down• in the main lobby and asked him if he could tell him where the 1219

February 21, 1974 Tape 378 p~ - 4 Department of Fisheries was. He said, down there by Elizabeth Towers. So the gentleman took a taxi, he went down to Philip's Flace and he was told there that it was back in Confederation Building. He came back to Confedera.tion Building and he was told it was somewhere in on the road. AN HON. NF.MBER: :MR. WINSOR: I hope he was a Tory. Roweve.r. - Well he was a Liberal a.fter, I guess. That gentleman was faced with a taxi bill for $8, trying to locate the ~inister of Fisheries's office. MR. W. N. ROWE: Did he ever. U-..-.t.d MR.

WINSOR: I am not too- sure but it cost him dearly to do so. \ .. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, WINSOR: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries, this is one department which should be here in this building. That is one of the most important departme'[).t's we have in this province. More people I would say come to visit the Department of Fisheries than any other dep~rtment in this .building. 1220

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 379 NM - l It goes to show, Mr. Speaker, instead of what the Premier advocated to bring the government closer to people in realty what he has done is to take government further away from the ordinary man. ,He also, Mr. Speaker, the Premier,referred to the development of the Churchill Falls as the greatest sellout since Manhatten Island was sold to the indians. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me point out to the House that the greatest sale ever attempted in Newfoundland was during the Tory days when the Prime Minister of that day went and begged to the Province of Quebec, to buy Labrador, the whcle 110,000 miles of it. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. CAPT. WINSOR: Well he may be selling but I am sure he will demand a higher price. One of the last Tory governments that we had in Newfoundland went and tried to sell that 110,000 square miles of territory to the Province of Quebec for the paultry sum of $15 million. But, Mr.

Speaker, the Quebec Government lacked the soon realized their mistake,and what happened to Labrador? knowledge but • •• ,.. ,.::.. ,.....,,...: .. • ... -1 ___ · :.,- , · ~ - It was ·· \ .. {~•r ·---,~ ... taken to the Privy Council, Quebec was trying to get it. But had the Tories had their day, they would not need to go to the Privy Council to get Labrador restored· to Newfoundland. They could have gotten it for a song. MR. NEARY: Fire sale price - $10 million. CAPT. WINSOR: That is right. That offer, Mr.

Speaker, the pre-offer to sell Labrador was likened by the Newfoundlanders to the ancient story of Essau selling his birthright for a meager ~iece of porridge. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to note the minimum wage increase : of $2.20 per hour. Most of our labourers are not getting over-excited about this announcement for the simple reason that they all know that the economy of the province is in a much better position today to pay that amount than it was to pay $1.40 five years ago. MR. NEARY: Even a year ago. CAPT. WINSOR: That amount today of$2.20 is less, it has less purchasing 1221

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 379 NM - 2 power than the $2.20 today and in order for the increase to be really effective then I would suggest that the niinimum wage should be increased to the minimum of $2.50 per hour. Let us look at the fishing industry. The prices of all species of fish are the highest in our history and consequently profits are at an all time high. In the light of this, the people who are paying the price for this profit are the fishermen themselves. I am fully convinced, Mr.

Speaker, that the fishermen themselves are today not receiving prices for their product that are relative to the profits that are being made by those of the fish processors. there is no other major industrial endeavour in which the producer is so much at the mercy of the processors. It is regretful indeed that the present government, after setting up in some fashion a Fishery Industrial Advisory Board, did not carry through with it, I wonder why, Mr. Speaker, This could have been the ideal opportunity to allow the fishermen to have a say in the prices they could and ought to receive.

This is another good example of lack of courage on the part of the government and a further example of broken promises. Mr. Speaker, the former Liberal Government laid a wonderful foundation in this province in many avenues, the building of roads to break the curse of isolation to many of our communities, supplying of electricity, hospitals, schools; all over the province wherever one may travel,one cannot but see what a foundation was laid. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is up to this government to start to build on that foundation. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, through you, to the honourable Premier, that he was given a privilege that comes only to a few and he was given that privilege by a decisive majority of the people of this province. MR. NF.ARY: lie was handed the torch. CAPT. WINSOR: I would say to him, to get his troops in order because 1222

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 379 NM - 3 Mr. Speaker, he and they are going to have to give an account of their stewardship and so far, so far Mr. Speaker, that performance leaves much to be desired by the people of this province. , Mr. Speaker, in closing I would like to move an amendment on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, moved by me and seconded by my colleague, the member for White Bay South.

Be it resolved that all the words after "that" be deleted and the following words substituted therefore, "This House regrets the failure of the p.resent administration to introduce adequate programme to lessen the severe impact on our people of the Tapidly rising costs of living and regrets the failure of the administration to introduce adequate programmes to reduce the extremely high number of our people who are unemployed and regret the failure of the administration to introduce adequate programmes to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of this province." MR. NEARY: Resign. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour may wish to put the amendment, I would like to speak to the amendment if it is in order but Your Honour I believe may wish to put it and probably wish to look at it, so we will await Your Honour's - MR. SPEAKER: It appears that the amendment is quite in order if the honourable Leader of the Opposition wants to speak to the amendment. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Are we to take it our amendment has been put in the way subject to the rules and all that sort of thing? HR. SPEAKER: Maybe it should be read. MR. ROBERTS: I think that is the procedure, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: It has been moved by the honourable member for Fogo District, seconded by the honourable member for White Bay South,

be it resolved that all the words after."that" be deleted and the following words substituted therefore, "This House regrets the failure of the. present administration to introduce adequate prograllUlles to lessen the 1223 ·

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 379 NM - 4 severe impact on our people of the rapidly rising cost of living and regrets the failure of the administration to introduce adequate progr~mmes to reduce the extremely high numbers of our people who a re unemploy ed and regrets the failure of the administration to introduc e adequate pro grammes to bring public servicel> up to an acceptable level throu ghout all parts of this province . " The amendment is acceptable. MR.ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I may say .a few words in support 1224

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 380 Pqel-~ of the amendment put forth by my friend and colleague the gentleman from Fogo. I should begin, Sir, by saying, although I think it goes without saying, that I support the amendment. I think it is a fair and an accurate statement of the state of affairs in which this government have left this province. The main motion before the House, Sir, is to the effect that an Address in Reply, thanking His Honour for his gracious speech, be presented to him.

The amendment if carried would strike those formal words, Sir, and replace them with some words of substance; some words regretting the failure of the administration to come to grips with three of the major problems which confront our people today. The first of these, Sir, is the fact that this government have not introduced adequate prograDD!les. I would venture to say they have not introduced any meaningful programmes to lessen the severe impact on our people of the rapidly rising cost of living. The second point, Mr.

Speaker, is that this House regrets the failure of the administration to introduce adequate programmes to reduce the extremely high numbers of our people who are unemployed. The third part, Mr. Speaker, is that this House regrets the failure of the administration to introduce adequate programmes to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of this province. Now, Mr, Speaker, if this were a court of law and that were an indictment, I suggest that any jury of twelve men an women would have no hesitation at all in finding a verdict of guilty on those three charges.

I propose, Sir, to deal briefly with each of the points. I believe that some of my colleagues wish to say a few words in the debate and they will, of course, have the rights afforded them by the rules of the House. They may choose to deal in some more detail with some of the points. 1225

February 211 1974 Tape no. 380 Page 2 MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS:· Yes, Mr. Speaker, we can all speak on this. The gentleman from Bonavista South - MR. MORGAN: Everybody should. MR. ROBERTS: Everybody should speak on it, Everybody in this House should record his opinion as to whether he believes that 36,000 unemployed represent an adequate solution to Newfoundland's employment problem. No matter how they twist or distort or mislead or misrepresent, Mr. Speaker, the fact remains that there are today, by official figures, 36 1 000 people unemployed in this province, one-fifth of our labour force.

No matter how much the crybaby from Grand Falls talks about how the figures have changed. the fact remains that one out of five Newfoundlanders looking for work, eligible for work, available for work in the workforce is today unemployed. The fact remains, Sir, that this administration have not come to grips with that. Mr. Speaker, all we have seen is a pathetic programme, the Rural Development Programme, the Rural Development Authority Programme, a programme of partisan and of political patronage of the worst sort. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Nonsense! AN.HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No!

With the Tory candidate for Hermitage - the Tory candidate for Hermitage, as a member of it. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have the right to the floor of this House. Thank you• Your Honour. If the gentleman from Burgeo does not want to hear the truth, then let him leave. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: That is a false statement. MR. ROBERTS: What is a false statement? 1226 ...

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 380 '. Pagel MR. BARRY: To say that it is political patronage. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, it is not a false statement. It is a true statement, just as it is true to say that the government are covering up the Bill Saunders' case. That is a true statement too. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, how are we to explain such things as the greenhouses for which Mr. Bernard J. Fitzpatrick defeated Tory candidate of St. John's got$ 7,184.60 to build greenhouses. MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS : MR. BARRY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Where?

We know not where. (Inaudible) • Bell Island? Order please! Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman from Placentia West, the intellectual camp follower of the Minister of Finance, will the gentleman from Burgeo and the gentleman from Bonavista South please pay some - I retract in respect of the gentleman from · Bonavista South because we are so used to him, Mr. Speaker, being a Yahoo and interrupting rudely and impolitely that I assumed it was he, I was not looking and I -apologize to him. I retract my remarks insofar as they affect him.

If these honourable gentlemen opposite, Sir, wish to speak in this debate, they have the same opportunity - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the sort of thing that I have in mind. The gentleman from Burgeo is flagrantly and persistently either displaying his ignorance or ignoring the rules _ of the House. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: He certainly cannot beat his brains·, Mr. Speaker. 122l

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 380 Page 4 MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may go on. I refer to the Rural Development Authority as being political-patronage ridden. My friend and colleague from Hermitage, not Mr. Burt Meade - the member from Hermitage, will have a few words to say on this, whether it be today or another day. He has done some most interesting work on it. Perhaps, he will show the figures in their'true light and show the facts in their true light.

I choose to refer to it now merely to say that it is the only effort this administration have made to come to grips with the problems of unemployment in this province, the only effort, other than hiring their friends as executive assistants and the like. Name me another programme!. Name me another policy! There is not one, Sir, there is not one programme that has done anything to provide employment for our people. Mr. Speaker, we can talk about the mining policy. Perhaps the Minister of Mines and Energy will. Let him show the increased employment there.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation funded by Ottawa - twenty to two - ten to one - MR. IDRGAN: It is a flop! MR. ROBERTS: It is a flop, is it? I am glad to hear it is a flop because I was about to say it was set up by the present administration and I now have the authority of the gentleman from Bonavista South to say that it is a flop. I am glad he thinks so, Sir. MR. MORGAN: The Rural Development Authority is not - MR. ROBERTS: I see'. I see! The Rural Development Authority is ... not a flop but the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR.

ROBERTS: I hope, Mr. Speaker, that every minister who stands to 1228

February 21, 1974 ;ape no. 380 Page 5 speak in the debate will give his opinion on that question. as to whether or not the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is a flop. I say it is not. I say it has started some of the better things that have been done, that mine down near Springdale. Is that a flop, Sir? It is not a flop, I agree. AN HON. MEtIBER: (Inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: The minister is going to claim credit that the price of copper has gone up now. Well that is what has made it economically feasible. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR.

ROBERTS: The mine in Springdale has been made possible by assistance from the Development Corporation - the flop, from the gentleman from Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I agree with him about the I.D.B. There is another thing that the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation have done. In Gander, I forget the name of the firm but they have a great big hanger, Mr. Roy L. Cooper and two or three others, Eastern Contractors,and they have started in a fairly small way - they contract to look after aircraft and maintain them and service them.

I understand that they are doing very well indeed. The Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is not a flop. It is far from it. It is a very good programme indeed. It is far better than the Rural Development Authority. AN HON. MEMBER: No comparison! MR. ROBERTS: I agree there is no comparison. The Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is a . success but the other one is a failure, is riddled with part.isanship and patronage - riddled, Sir! The minister responsible has to take the responsibility. 1229 .

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 380 Page 6 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: The fact, Sir, that one of tbe membe'ts of the authority ran for the Tory Party - AN HON. MEMBER: What is "7rong with that? MR. ROBERTS: Nothing is wrong with that. I wish he would run again he is that easy to defeat. The fact that he did run, Sir, and did not resign from the position and indeed has still been serving in that position shows the extent of the patronage. I venture to say, Mr. Speaker, one. could go through the list of loans and grants made by the authority and one could find case after case where political affiliation ha:s been the reason for the success. 1230

February 21, 1974, Tape 381, Pagel -- apb Mr. Speaker, I have already suggested, I shall name just one at this point ••• SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order pleas~! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I will not hear from the gentleman from Trinity South who spent a large part of his time getting business for his own firms. SOME HON. MEMBERS-: Hear! Hear! HR. ROBERTS: $7,184.60. Mr. Bernard J.Fitzpatrick, St. John's, greenhouses SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the fact that Mr. Bernard J.Fitzpatrick has twice run for the Tory Party.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is not allowed- . he is not eligible - HR. ROBERTS: No. No. SOME RON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR, ROBERTS: speech o~ do MR. SPEAKER: HR. ROBERTS: MR. STAGG: HR. W.N.ROWE: MR. ROBERTS: the fray. HR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, do I have the right, Sir, . to make this Order please! Or do I not? Not, not, not. Oh listen! The deputy - The impartial Deputy Speaker has now entered into Order please! HR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, may I carry on, Sir?

If the honoura~le gentlemen opposite do not agree with what I am saying then let them get up and complain, let them attack me in due course, indeed, just as if they do not like what is being said in the editorials let then attack the press. If the gentleman from Grand Falls does not like what people are saying on openline shows, let him whine and cry 1231

February 21, 1974, Tape 381, Page 2 -- apb and complain. They have the right. What about such well known non-partisan types as Mr. Wallace Maynard of Hawke's Bay, the unsuccessful Tory candidate in St. Barbe North, a brother to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture who was given a loan of $7,500 for pulpwood harvesting? I would suggest, Sir, that he got that without any relationship at all,of course, to the fact. We now have two unsuccessful Tory candidates, Sir. ·1wo. Two. AN HON . MEMBER: There will be more. MR. ROBERTS: There will be more. HR. W.N.ROWE: There will be a lot more after the next election. MR.

ROBERTS: Let me name another one, Sir. The gentleman from Trinity South asked for names - there is another, sheet metal fabrication, a rural industry of some substance, Sir, $6,500 - I wonder what gentleman got this? Let me guess whether it is a fact that Mr. William G.Patterson who stood for the Tory Party in Placentia East in 1971,in October. That makes three Tory candidates, Sir. That makes three. MR. W.N.ROWE: I would not bother going any further, the point is made. MR. ROBERTS: The point is made. MR. W.N.ROWE: The point is made beyond any ·doubt. AN HON. MEMBER: They are all ambitious and productive men. MR.

W.N.ROWE: The point is made. MR. ROBERTS: I will say they are ambitious. AN HON. MEMBER: And productive. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if the impartial Deputy Speaker ••• AN HQN t!J'MBEH • He is speaking as a member, from the floor. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman should know that he has no riRht to speak when another member has the floor. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not he! making such nonsense. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would Your Honour kindly call him to order? 1232

February 21, 1974, Tape 381, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Order please'. For the past several minutes several honourable members to my left have been interrupting a member when speaking. While it may be very true and very correct that they might not agree with some of the statements opposite, I feel that when they rise to speak on this amendment they will have ample opportunity to refute the arguments as put forth by members on the other side. I am sure they are very much aware of the right of any honourable member to be heard in silence. I ask them to respect this rule in the future. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, thank you very much, Sir. Where was I? What we are seeing in this House, Mr. Speaker, is a deliberate and an organized attempt by gentlemen on the opposite side, not by Your Honour, Your Honour is our sole protection, a deliberate and organized attempt to intimidate the press and to attempt to intimidate the gentlemen on this side. MR. BARRY: Point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. BARRY: Point of order. The honourable member is impugning the motives of members of this honourable House, referring to past debate, saying that the remarks made are intended to intimidate. MR. ROBERTS: No. MR.

BARRY: I submit that that is unparliamentary language. I would also point out, Mr. Speaker,that in terms of ignoring the rules of debate, the rules of this honourable Rouse, the honourable the Leader of the Opposition has done more to discourage the paying of attention to these rules than any other member in this honourable House, in that every time he gets up on a point of order ••• MR. NEARY: State the point of order. KR.

BARRY: I am stating the point of order and I am amplifying on it,in that every time the honourable Leader of the Opposition gets up to make a point of order he manages to throw out a few unparliamentary phrases while he is doing it. I submit, Mr, Speaker, that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition should be brought 1?~3 -...... - - ...

February 21, 1974, Tape 381, Page 4 -- apb to heel ( and you know who you bring to heel) I submit that he should be brought to heel and that he should be asked to withdraw the unparliamentary references that were just made. MR. W.N.ROWE: What does he mean? What was that, Your Honour? MR. SPEAKER: I feel that some comments made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition, I do not particularly see them as possibly being unparliamentary, they may have been perhaps unmannerly in tha~ sense, irt terms of debate in this honourable Rouse, With regard to unparliamentary, there is a basic difference. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, that is fine and may I repeat what I said since Your Honour has ruled that it is parliamentary. The gentlemen opposite are engaged in a deliberate attempt to - a deliberate and concerted campaign to intimidate the press and to ' attempt - MR. BARRY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I could assist Your Honour in referring - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour has made a ruling. MR. BARRY: Point of order. Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not attempting in any way to appeal Your Honour's ruling.

I will now ask for a specific ruling though and draw Your Honour's attention to the rule which says that any honourable in the course of debate· is not.permitted to make insulting statement~ with reference to any member of this honourable House. I submit that the statement just made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition is an insulting statement and should be withdrawn. Mr.

Speaker, if I could just have a moment to refer to - "No member shall speak disrespectfully" this is on Page (36) of the Standing Orders, Standing Order (52) "No member shall speak disrespectfully of Her Majesty" by Her Majesty, the honourable Leader has done this at one time or another as well. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. BARRY: Nor of any ••• MK. ROBERTS: The honourable member is not allowed to rise to a point of order to make any speech or to attack honourable gentlemen. 1234

February 21, 1974, Tape 381, Page 5 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. BARRY: It is the last phrase in that sentence; "Nor use offensive words against any member of this House.'' I submit that these words used by the honourable Leader of the Opposition are highly offensive, they are insulting and that he should be asked to discontinue that course of debate. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, If I may, to the point of order. (

a) Your Honour has made a ruling on that substantially, exactly the same point just about three minutes ago and the gentleman from Placentia West is flagrantly attempting to get around that. Secondly; I submit that no words I have used are offensive in the parliamentary sense. They may be offensive in the sense that the truth hurts, to which my answer is, if the cap fits let them wear it. Mr. Speaker, Your Honour has ruled that the words I used were in order. If Your Honour wishes to change the ruling that is Your Honour's pTerogative. If not, may I carry on, Sir? MR.

BARRY: If I could just speak to the point of order, Your Honour - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker! MR. BARRY: As I understood His Honour's ruling, he did not rule that the words were not unparliamentary without referring to the rules or without researching it, he said, to quote if I can quote His Honour's ruling, he said; "They may not be unparliamentary." AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable minister is questioning the ruling. MR. BARRY: I am not questioning - AN HON. MEMBER: He is. He is. MR. BARRY: I am saying it as I heard it, that they may not be unparliamentary.

I have now drawn His Honour's attention to a specific rule of this honourable House which I would ask him to enforce. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I do not recall the verbatim remarks that I ma<le a few moments ago but ' I feel that I said that I did not think the honourable the Leader of the Oppsoition's words were 1235

February 21, 1974, T~pc 381, Page 6 -- apb unparliamentary. I sald I thought that perhaps they may not be quite mannerly in the terms of debate. I think that the honourable Leader of the Opposition perhaps was provoking some of the honourable members on the other side. I shall permit him to continue but I think he should perhaps be a little more relevant to the amendment in question. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I may merely finish the sentence that the gentleman from Placentia West interrupted me in the midst of I would be delighted to - I feel I have a right to complete a sentence, Sir.

The sentence is relevant. It is entirely relevant to this amendment, Sir. The gentlemen opposite are engaged in a deliberate campaign to attempt to intimidate the press and to attempt to intimidate us. MR. A. EVANS: That is not very hard. MR, ROBERTS: No, not hard to attempt but hard to succeed. MR. A, EVANS: Not hard to do when - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Burgeo has flagrantly and persistently ignored Your Honour's rulings. Now, Sir, as I was saying MR. W.N.ROWE: (Inaudible) MR.

ROBERTS: All he can do is look at the gentleman from Burgeo and say; "Thank God! He is not on our side." We thank the electorate that he will not be here next time. Mr. Speaker, one of the three points in this motion is that the House regrets the failure of the administration to introduce adequate 123G

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 382 NM - 1 programmes to reduce the extremely high numbers of our people who are unemployed and I was saying, began by saying that the Rural Development Authority really represents the only significant initiative of this administration. The Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, which has not been the flop the gentleman from Bonavista South called it, and I invite ministers when they speak ta say whether they agree or not with the gentleman from Bonavista South. But that, Sir, was an initiative by the previous administration, by the Smallwood Administration.

It was brought to fruition by the present administration of the province. It was indeed but the work was well advanced, Sir, it had got to the stage where draft memoranda of agreement had come to the cabinet. MR. w:-f. ROHE: Eighteen as a matter of fact, if my memory serves me. MR. ROBERTS: My colleague who was a member of that cabinet, Sir, was intimately involved with those programmes and substantial and signficant progress was being made. The federal government are funding it in a ratio of ten to one, $20 millions to$ 2 million.

So if it has been successful, as it has, Ottawa should get at least ten times the credit of the provincial government. We would agree on that. But, Sir, let us just look at the unemployment figures once again. The gentleman from Grand Falls tried to confuse us the other day, well succeeded in confusing us, but the latest figures put out by the provincial government, Sir, are that the unemployed, the number of unemployed for the mer.th of January 1974 was 36,000, as compared to one year previous,30,000, an increase of twenty per cent.

For every five men who were unemployed in January 1973, Sir, there were six men unemployed in January of 1974. That is one of the reasons we bring in this amendment, Sir, that staggering rate of progress by the administration. Oh! but they will say the work force is larger,and so it is. The work force is up 7. 2 per cent over 'the same period, Sir. So the unemployment rate has gone up twenty per cent and the work force has gone up seven per cent, with progress like tha~ thank heavens they will not be in for 1231

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 382 too much longer, Sir, or we would be all out of work. The unemployment rate, unadju~ted January 1974, per cent 20.1, January 1973, 18 per cent, up 2.1 per cent, Sir, ~p from NM - 2 18 per cent to 21 per cent over the year; that is Tory progress. That is Tory government. That is the Tory economic development programme. That is their success, Sir. That is their great planning and priorittes. They have planned and they have made it a priority and today there are more people unemployed than ever before, Sir. One-fifth of our labour force is out of work. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is the reason we are moving that. That is the reason we bring in that amendment. The Premier still has not had the manliness to admit his error on his unemployment figures. The gentleman from Grand Falls came in and tried to add to it, to defend the indefensible, but the fact remains, Sir, that unemployment in Newfoundland, the gentleman from Gran _~ Falls can talk about all the jobs he wants, but Sir, the fact remains that the number of persons in the labour force without jobs increased steadily during the two years of the Progressive Conservative Administration.

During 1971 there was an average of 18,400 unemployed, that is an awful lot, Sir. But during 1972, the first year of Tory beneficence,it went up to 20,000, an increase, Sir, of 2,000 people. In 1973 it increased further to 22,800, that is when their plans really got into effect, Sir. The numbers of jobless Newfoundlanders increased by an average of 13.4 per cent during that period. They can talk about the expanded labour force, Sir, and of course our labour force has grown but our economy is not growing as rapidly as our labour force, Sir.

The economy is not providing jobs at a fast enough rate to keep pace with the expanse in the labour for~e. The Premier, Sir, attempted to mislead this House, not deliberately, of course not, I agree with the gentleman from St. John's North, he would never .think 111 of the Premier nor would I. MR. WM. ROWE: Althour,h he has reason to, good reason. 123H

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 382 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier attempted to mislead this House and the cry baby gentleman from Grand Falls who was on whinin~ about open lines this morning. Coming events casting their shadows before him, a poll of his constituents. '' //1 Let the honourable gentleman r,. 1- ' • ·• be a man and take it, Sir, But all his figures the other day, Sir, did not - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ~rR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman; the other day all his figures, Sir, could not camouflage the truth. He could not camouflage the truth, Sir, and the truth - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how much guff he is going to take, He is still on that side. He has a lot to take yet. Mr. Speaker, there has only been one man to my knowledge in the history of Confederation ever dismissed from the cabinet on the grounds of incompetence. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker• now we are all mightily entertained as always by the honourable Leader of the Opposition but he is certainly departing from the rules of relevance.

He is certainly unnecessarily attempting to insult another member af this honourable House and this debate gets out of order because the honourable Leader is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: I tend to agree with the honourable Minister without Portfolio, the honourable Leader of the Opposition was very far from the relevancey to this amendment. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you Your Honour, and I apologize to Your Honour. I was dragged away from it by the insistent interruptions of the gentleman from Grand Falls who five or six times - MR. SENIOR: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: There he goes again, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEA.\<ER: ~dBE RTS: Order please! Thank you, now may I carry on? I did not start that, the insistent and ignorant gentleman from Grand Falls. 1239

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 382 NM - 4 MR. SENIOR: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: There he goes again. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if he will not follow the rules, what is he to do? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am attempting to debate on the unemployment figures and the gentleman from Grand Falls brought in some figures. Oh! He was great. How he laid it down, just as it was written out for him, Sir. It is too bad we did not have the author stand up. Mr. Speaker, he did not deal with the facts and I am attempting to deal with the facts.

If the gentleman from Grand Falls does not wish to hear what I say, then let him leave. AN HON. MEMBER: Stick to the point. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, honourable gentlemen opposite, you know they are scared of the truth in ~he Saunders thing. They are scared of the truth in this - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The honourable Leader of the Opposition is not being relevant to the amendment in his remarks now and I suggest he get on with the explanation of the amendment. MR.

ROBERTS: Well I thank Your Honour, I am attempting to carry on if only honourable gentlemen opposite would be as tender in regard to Your Honour's rulings as they should be, Sir, and not interrupt me. The intellectual camp-follower of the Minister of Finance - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: He keeps interrupting me. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: I do not think it is an insult, Sir. I think it is probably the greatest compliment anybody ever paid the gentleman from Placentia West in a long time. It is an insult to the Minister of Finance. 1240

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 382 NM - 5 MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, I was talking about the numbers unemployed and the Premier came into the House, Sir, and he still has not had the manliness to set the records straight. But he told us, Sir, that the number of jobs have gone up by 38,000, but Sir, it has not. it has not. The gentleman from Grand Falls could not prove that it had because it has not. Mr. Speaker; the facts are quite simple. The number of jobless as a percentage of the labour force or absolutely has risen steadily, compare month for month.

The honourable gentleman from Grand Falls tried the tactic of comparing January with August intellectual dishonesty of a high order but that is what we expect. But, Sir, my colleagues will be dealing with this in even more detail. But I wanted to say a few words abut the Tory record with respect to employment. They have not done the job, Sir. They have not done what they should have done and the fact that we do not have today in Newfoundland people suffering because of this is no thanks to them, Sir.

It is thanks to the Government of Canada, to an extremely generous unemployment insurance progralDllle, a programme which their National Leader has been attacking. If we did not have the unemployment insurance, Sir, the number of unemployed in Newfoundland today would lead to grave social dislocation and disorder. Thank heavens for unemployment insurance, and thank heavens that Bob Stanfield does not have anything to do with it!

Now Sir, another part of this motion is to regret the failure of the administration to introduce adequate programmes to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of this province. Sir, there too any fair-minded person looking at it would agree, this administration has not done what they should have done to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of the province. The Northern Peninsula Highway - there has been not one nickel 1241

'February 21, 1974 Tape No, 382 NM - 6 of provinci a l moucy spen t on paving that road, not one nickel. The money that has gone into it has come f.rom Ottawa, throueh the DREE programmes and through the national parks programmes . They have done nothing there . I am wil ling to bet t hey have not spent $20,000 in Labrador South on road improvement • . Our record as an adm.inis tra t ion may not have been the best but compare~ - MR . WM. ROWE: Compared to this crowd. MR. ROBERTS: Compared to t r.at , Sir, we are shining par agons , compared to that, Sir, compaYed to that - where is it? The gentleman from - 124 2 ,.

February 21, 1974 Tape 383 PK - 1 Temporarily from St. George _' s has lurched his way down now to the Prer-ier' s seat, -now interrupts from there instead of from his own assigned seat, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I have a seat in this House because my constituents sent me here and if they do not want me here they will know how to take me out when the time comes, and so will the.gentleman for Burgeo's. MR. EVANS: Oh, do not worry about me. MR. ROBERTS: I am not worried about him, Mr.

Speaker, if anybody wants to have a wager on the political future of the gentleman for Burgeo, anything under $100 to $1 on his failing to gain re-election is a gQod bet. MR. EVANS: That is poor judgment. MR. ROBERTS: That is not my judgment, Sir, that is the judgment of his constituents. Mr. Speaker, all across Newfoundland we see inadequate public services which this administration have done nothing, nothing to change.

What money has been spent in the main has come from DREE and they have even managed to botch that up now, as my friend and colleague, the gentleman for White Bay South,will discuss at some length. They have even managed to botch that up now. The last four or five years we have had what? $10 million? $15 million? $20 million? $30 million? $40 million? on water and sewer systems in - MR. W.N. ROWE: In the two year period it was over $130 million. MR. ROBERTS: In two years it was over. $130 million, my colleague tells me. MR. W. N. ROWE: Twenty-five million last year. MR.

ROBERTS: Twenty-five millions they got last year. I could go through constituency after constituency and point to works - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance now feels impelled to ignore the rules. AN HON. ME\'-IBF.R: Inaudible. 1243

February 21, 1974 Tape 383 PK - 2 MR, ROBERTS: I wish the honourable eentleman uould ir,nore ne, Sir. I wish I could i~nore l1im but he insists upon intruding into the dehate. Are they tender conscienced? Sir, the truth shall make ye free? Mr. Speaker, we have seen nothinr, done in the medical field. We saw the Minister of Health humiliated last weekend. The great planner, the great - Oh! Oh!

We had a report we are told saying Bonavista should have twenty-five beds, That is the result of great planning, That is the result of the great experts say and the Premier goes down without even as much as a word to the Minister of Health, goes down to Bonavista Town, Sir; he says we are going to get a sixty bed hospital. Well more power to them. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The Hon. the Leader of the Opposition is misleading the House of Assembly by saying that the Hon. the Premier went down to Bonavista with me,without the knowledge of the Minister of Health. That is totally incorrect and by saying it he is misleading the House of Assembly. The Minister of Health was consulted before the meeting and after thE; meeting Unfortunately he was unable to attend the meeting with us at Bonavista. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, where is the point of order? At best it is a difference of fact, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPF.AKrn: Order, please!

The point of order,as the honourable the Member for Bonavista South rose on a point of order, it was not really a point of order, it was an attempt to clarify the difference of ... opinion between two honourable members,which he has succeed in doing. DR. A. T. ROWE: I would like to correct a point where - HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please: DR, A.T. ROWE: I am not sure if it is part of the procedure of a point of order hut if the mis-statement was made thet we are Calkin~ about sixty h~ds thnt is completely untrue. Mr. Speaker, it was twenty-five 1244

February 21, 1974 Tape 383 PK - 3 beds and it is twenty-five beds. MR. ROBERTS: I did understand the nonourable gentleman's interjection but if the Premier - HON. MEMBE...~S: Inaudible, MR. ROBERTS: That is fine now let it go forth from this time and place that Bonavista is not to get a sixty bed hospital. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I do not know what he promised, the Premier has not been in the House long enough to tell us. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. ROBERTS: The boys have the cutting.

All I am saying, Sir, I am just taking another example of how the government have bluffed and deceived the people. The Minister of Health wrote me in July of last year and said there was going to be an extension to the hospital. I have his letter. Now, Hr. Speaker, - DR. A.T. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. On this very point tenders were called for the extension but there was no bid. Does not that clarify the situation. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, he is the sickest man in the province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. ROBERTS: Where is the point of order, Mr. Speaker? DR. A.T. ROWE: The point of order, Mr.

Speaker, is that I did not say we were going to se£ an extension. I said there were tenders called but nobody bid. MR SPF.AKER: Order, please: MR EVANS: Let us become sensible, Sir. MR ROBERTS: I saw the letter. MR SPEAKER: Order, Please! Order, Please! Order, Please! For the last fiteen or twenty minutes or so I have had to sit here and listen to honourable members on each side of this House interject remarks. Again I want to remind honourable members that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence.

If members want to rise on a point of order or point of privilege, of course, that 1245

February 21, 1974 Tape 383 PK - 4 is completely in order. I do not ,:Intend to sit here and hear interjections which are completely unnecessary any more. If honourable memhers persist in disobeying the rules of this House then they shall have to take the consequences of being named, MR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, thank you, Sir. As I ' was saying the Bonavista Hospital is an example of what has been done.

The people in Channel, Port aux Basques, Sir, want a commitment from the administration as to when a hospital will be built. there was a committee came in, Sir, th~ same committee that told me, a member of the committee told a public meeting that he was ashamed of the gentleman who now represents Burgeo-LaPoile seat: MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the 'Hember for Burgeo is defying, deJiberately defying Your Honour's ruling and I would suggest that Your Honour take whatever disciplinary action against the member that is necessary under the rules of this House. MR.

L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, I submit that the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition quoted somebody outside of·this, House to insult the honourable member. I submit that if nothing else the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition is being unduly provocative and I would submit that he is being unparliamentary by using such insulting language. MR. ROBERTS: It is not insulting.The truth is the truth. The remarks were made at a public meeting of 150 people in Port aux Basques. MR. EVANS: Hr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. ROJlF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, I am speakin ·g to a point of order.

HR~VANS: On a point of order, please! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER : Sit down! MR. SPF.AKER: Order, ple.1.!'lP ! The Hon. the Leader of Opposition is speakinR to 11 point of order. If the honourable "'1ember for Burgeo­ Lal'oile w:l11hes to soeak to it follo,wing I will recognize him then. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir, the remarks were made at a public meeting. I did not call the meeting, the Lions Club called the mcetinr,. I submit 1246

February 21, 1974 Tape 383 PK - 5 there is nothing unparliamentary about it. If my be unpleasant to tr.e ge~~le1'l.an for Burgeo Lapoile - AN RON. MEMBER: It is unparliamentary. MR. ROBF.RTS: The schoolboy debater· tells me it is unparliamentary. Maybe it is in the older boys parliament, Sir, but we are speaking in the House of Assembly where Your Honour prevails. The honourable gentleman should go back to - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Compared to the honourable gentleman I am statesman MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! HR.

RORERTS: I submit, Sir, that my remarks are completely in order and I submit furthermore that I am being detiberately harassed by gentleman opposite. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. The remarks made by the Leader of the Oppostion or the temporary Leader I should say are completely out of order. He had no grounds for making the statement that he made. He made a statement at the meeting in Port aux Basques. It is suppose to be an nonpolitical association, . fhe Lions Club, it . is in fact a Liberal Club. MR. ROWE, W.N •••• organizations like that. MR. EVANS: Oh, no. Mr.

Speaker, he said that there was no coTinnitment made by this government as to when a hospital will be built at Port aux Basques. That was already decided when the delegation was in here from the council a few days prior to that. The trip that he made was completely wasted. MR. NEARY: If I may, Sir, the original point of order is being confused here, Sir.

All I was doing, the reason why I raised the point of order, Sir, was the Leader of the Opposition was being continuously and deliberately interrupted by members on the opposite side of the House and I ask Your Honour to enforce the rules of the House and take whatever disciplinary_ action tha_t was necessary against the ?-kmber for Rurgeo. HR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! I did make a few comments !n regard to members interjecting unnecessarily. I did not say that the next person to interject 1247

February 21, 1974 Tape 383 PK - 6 would be named. I said the honourable members who insist on doing this they would have to put up with the consequences. I agree that perhaps honourable members on the other side are provoking the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition but I think that perhaps the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition is throwing out a few points to provoke some of the members on the other side to reply to him as well. Therefore, perhaps the fault lies on both sides of this honourable House. The points raised are not particularly points of order but opinions. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, if I am throwing out remarks to provoke the honourable gentleman opposite, everything I said is correct. The gentleman who made the statement about the gentleman for Burgeo LaPoile was the Deputy }iayor of Port aux Basques who had been at the meeting. The point I was attempting to make about that was that a delegation of five people came in, Sir, all fiv~ of them spoke at the meeting and at least three of themwere not aware of any commitment that had been made, any firm commitment had been made.

I would love nothing better than to hear the Minister of Health or the Premier or some minister speaking for the government, Sir, to say when the work will begin on the Channel Hospital. They asked me out to the meeting, Sir, to try and get some action from the government. That is fine. I was delighted to go to it. Now let us get back to the Bonavista Hospital. I have here the letter written to me by the Minister of Health. July 13, 1973. ''Land required for the extension of the Bonavista Hospital has been surveyed and negotiations are taking place regardinr. acquisition of some 1248

February 21, 1974. Tape 384 RH - 1 private property.

(2) The architect for the Bonavista Hospital Extension Proje-:t has been appointed and planning is going fo'rward.

(3) Assumin~ no difficulty in land acquisition, the Department of Public Works expects soon to go to public tender for this project. They went to tender, got no replies. All I said, Sir, is they planned an extension. The minister had refused to give me, to give anybody, Sir, the report of the planning committee, the Federal Provincial Planning Committee and now I know why. Because the minister was hoist on his own petard, Sir. The minister has no'more in­ fluence over that decision, Sir, than some jackanapes down on Water Street.

The fact remains, Sir, the fact remains that all the planning they have talked about, Sir, to improve public services is a fraud. They have no more intention of following planning and this, the Bonavista example.proves it, Sir, exposes it for what it is. The people there are put off for a year with talk of a great plan being done and getting experts from Ottawa and getting experts from St. John's to go down to Bonavista town, Sir. HON. DR. A.T. ROWE: (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I dislike hearing that the people of Bonavista - that we are playing a fraud. Let us be factual.

The three statements there Sir are correct. Following that the government called tenders bu~ if nobody chose to bid on the tenders, that is not government's fault. Let us be clear; there is no fraud. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: There is no point of order, DR. ROWE: Th_e point of order was that that was a mis-statement. 'Ihere was no kind of fraud. MR. ROBERTS: I have quoted the honourable gentleman's letter in full. accurately. I am quite -prepared to give copies to anybody who wants it. MR. ROWE: Why does he not accept the fact that it was not government that had anything to do with not bidding on the tenders. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have not said anything about not bidding on them. The minister seems to feel the fact that nobody responded to t.he invitation for tenders is what I am talking about. I am not talking about - MR. ROWE: It is the reason why the hospital could not be started last year. MR. ROBERTS: All I am saying is that the people in Bonavista were 1249

February 21, 1974. Tape 381, RH - 2 promised an extension by the minister a year past as the result of the great survey that was done and now a few days later, I am sorry, a few months later and I do not know what the Premier promised the people in Bonavista. I can only rely on the news reports. I was not there. I have no first-hand knowledge. I have had reports from people who were there. The Premier promised them a hospital. Now, Sir, maybe he did not. Maybe this yellow dog rag, scurrilous, vile, contemptible journal - the "Evening Teler,rain" is wrong again and maybe everybody is wrong except this crowd.

"Premier Frank Moores", Sir, it says, "Bona vista ·staff". "Premier Frank Moores says a new hospital for this town should be completed by 1975". I do not know if he said it or not. How do I know what the man said. He probably does not know himself what he said but all I am saying, Sir, that is what the "Evening Telegram" has told the people of Newfoundland and they b~lieved they printed it in good faith. There has been no denials, no writs for libel. All I am saying is that a year past the Minister of Health said they were going to build an extension.

Now they are going to build a new hospital and all I am saying is that that is a fraud. MR. MORGAN: It is not a fraud. They are getting a hospital (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Oh, no, they are not. They say they are getting a hospital, Sir. There is a big difference. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the Leader of the Opposition permit a question? MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir. Put it on the Order Paper. That is what we are told all the time. Put it on the Order Paper. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What happened to the one the Liberals promised~ in Bay Roberts? MR.

ROBERTS: It was called off. I am glad he asked that, Sir. It was called off by the Tory Government. I can tell him, Sir, what has happened .,. to the hospital. Mr. Spenkcr, I will tell him what happened t~ the hospital 1250

February 21, 1974. Tape 384 RH - 3 for Bay Roberts. It was called off. It was called off by the present administration. That is what happened to it and let any man over there who denies that stand and say it but it was called off. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Right. Right. When the honourable gentleman was Health Minister it was promised. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, they cannot take the truth. They cannot take the truth. They cannot take the truth, Sir. The Bay Roberts hospital, Sir, was promised while the present Justice Minister was Health Minister.

It was promised while the Minister of Finance was Health Minister and it was started while I was minister and it was called off by the Tory - Indeed the honourable gentlemen, I believe - Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman has already distinguished himself in this House, previously, by using language that would not be used in a brothel. Now, Sir, let him at least control himself. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You know? You know? MR. ROBERTS: No, I know only what you have told me about them. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

ROBERTS: Then, Sir, he attempts to get up and turn the thrust of the debate by saying what happened to the Bay Roberts hospital. I will tell him what happened to it. The Tories killed it. That is what happened to it. R.I.P., Tory Party. That is what will be written on the tombstone. Just as it will be written on the honourable gentleman's political tombstone after next election. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. RORERTS: No, I will say he is not worried. He has got nothing to worry about after the next election, Sir. It is all over and done with now. MR. J. MORGAN. On a point of order~ Mr. Speaker.

We are debating an amendment to the motion put forward to adopt the Throne Speech. We are not debating whether or not honourable members of this House of Assembly are going to get elected in the next election or not. If we are going 1251

February 21, 1974. Tape 384 RH ~ 4 to debate the amendment properly, let us stick to the point. We are debating public services, not whether or not the M.H.A.s on this side of the House will be elected in the next election or not. I ask the Speaker to keep the debate relevant. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may speak to the point of order, Sir, the honourable gentleman ~ay have a point but may I say that the removal from thjs House of the.gentleman for Port de Grave, I submit, Sir, is a service to the public of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Honourable members - Order, please!

Honourable members, I am sure, are aware of the rule of relevancy and the honourable leader has strayed several times from this rule of relevancy. While I do not think Beauchene quotes the number of times that a person has to be called to order for relevancy, I tend to feel that the honourable Leader of the Opposition has been reminded of this several times and I trust that he will not wander from the rule of relevancy again. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am trying to be relevant but if honourable gentlemen opposite interrupt me and shout to make themselves heard over my meak and hollow voice, Sir, what am I to do? AN HONOURABLE MEMBF.R: Inaudible. MR ROBERTf: Yes, they would like to shout us down, Sir. That is just what I mean, that sort of thing, Sir. I was talking about their failure to bring public services up to an acceptable level throughout all parts of the Province and that stands for itself, Sir. . Mi HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible . MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, this gentleman from Port de Grave is building himself up to an outburst.

Should he burst out, outside. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, on the point of privilege. The honourable member from Bell Island is referring to me at the El Tico Club. ~ HONOURA~LF. MEMBER: You were never in the El Tico in your life. MR. WTJ.SON: - I stnnd in this honourable llousc, Mr. Speaker, to condemn that. 1252

Tape 384 RH - 5 ~. SPE/.KER: Order, please! Order, please! AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You have never been there in your life. You have never been there in your life. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member is on a point of privilege. It is more a matter of opinion but he was being provoked by the honourable member for Bell Island into making his couments and I submit that an honourable member when speaking does have the right to be heard in silence. A."1 HONOURABLE MEMBER: AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Has he been down to the El Tico Club? I do not know. MR.

ROBERTS: Now, Mr, Speaker, if I may proceed, having made a few brief, explanatory, introductory marks, Sir, to the main burden of what I would like to say today. So, one enjoys the debate, Mr. Speaker. It , . is quite fun, watching them rise, .take the bate, find that the truth hurts. The Bonavista people were, a year ago, going to have an extension and now the Minister of Health has been overruled and hU!Diliated publicly. I am sorry for him. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I would like to see a new hospital in Bonavista, Sir, and I should be very happy to take

part in the official opening in whatever capacity I am. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr, Speaker, the major - I ag·ree with the Minister of Finance. They would be doing me a favour if they left me alone ·. .AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible • MR. ROBERTS: I agree with the Ministe~ of Finance, again Sir. That is enough. Now, Sir, I am glad the minister - no doubt he is building himself .( up to a substantial reply. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Now, Sir, now, Mr. Speaker. Are we all set, Sir? I will say it again.

I have been relevant throughout, Sir, except when I have strayed up the "Primrose Paths" laid before me by the gentlemen on the other side. 1253

Fchru~ry 21, 1974 . Tape 384 RH - 6 A."I HONOURARI.E MFJIBER: Inaudible. HR. ROl3ERTS: I am tryin g to teach thirty odd tots, Sir. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS : I am tryin g to teach thirty odd t ots but that may be how many the minister has had. AN HONOURAf\LE HEM.BF:R: over there . The honourable member for Bell Island •.. move MR.

ROBERTS : Now, Sir, the point I want to deal with, specificall y, toc~y is the first part of t his amendment and that is: This House regrets the failure of the present administration to introduce adequate programmes to lessen the severe impact on our people of the rapidly risin g cost of living. What I am about t o say, Sir - I con.fess that at times I suppose my tendency in deba te is to be not ?elibe rately but unwitingly provocative~ Honourable gentlemen opposite react to some of the remarks I make. Maybe part of it is the politica l game . Maybe part of i t is their deliberate attempt to try to 1254

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 385 Page 1 - MW intimidate us and intimidate the press. Part of it is I suspect as Your Honour said that I cannot deliberately or knowingly but just responding to the gentlemen opposite to be a little provocative. I do not intend to be provocative in what I am about to say now. I do not intend to be complimentary to the government because I believe they should not be complimented. I believe their performance has been · abysmally bad.

I believe they have failed, When talking about the cost of living, Sir, I think I should begin by saying that I admit quite candidly and open~y and fully that it is in measure, perhaps in large measure, that it is the duty and responsibility of the Government of Canada to take measures to help to lessen the rise in the cost of living or to help to control inflation. I believe that is their duty, Sir. The government of a province in Canada has no access to monetary policy as such. All of the tools which the economists tell us can be used in the monetary field are denied the government of a p,:ovince.

We do have, however, access to the fiscal policy field, the field of taxation and of taxes. The government of the province there have power and can act. We also have certain rights under the constitution, Sir, certain rights in the British North America· Act. I submit that we are not,_the government of this province are not doing what they should do and what tht!Y could do and what they ought to do to help to lower the cost of living or to lower the rise in the cost of living. If the ministry spokesmen stand, as they may well in this debate, and say that it is all the fault of Ottaft·,· ·½,..reject that, Sir.

I think the Government of Canada have to take their share of the responsibility and if there be blame, let them take their share of the blame. I submit that the government o! the province have to take a share too, Sir, of the failure to come to grips with t _his protllem. 1255

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 385 Page 2 Mr. Speaker, this is the single most sertous problem affecting the public weal in Newfoundland today. Most of what we talk about in this House, if the truth were known I suppose that is why there is no television in any House in Canada, for fear of what the electorate would do to us all if they saw us all. If the truth were known, Sir, ninety-six per cent of what goes on in this House is of little concern directly and immediately to the people of Newfoundland. I have had people come up to me within the past week and say: "How are you Mr. Roberts?

How are you getting along boy7 I suppose the House will be opening one of these days." There are many people in Newfoundland. We are just completely irrelevant, most of us. We get in here and we have our foolish little debates. I am as guilty as anybody. Of course, I am. We play our petty little points of order. We try to one up each other on petitions and on smart cracks, that sort of thing. We are all guilty of that, Sir. Maybe the gentleman from Labrador South is not.I sometimes wonder if he is part of mortal mankind or that he is somehow above and beyond us. Certainly, Sir, the people who take

part in this House are equally guilty of it. I will take my share of the blame without hesitation. I am not particularly proud of it. It may be the nature of the system. Sir, this matter of the cost of living is not one that should be approached in that sphere. Sir, there is not a person in Newfoundland today who does not feel in a very real and a very direct and a very immediate and a very personal way the rise in the cost of living. The fact, Sir, that most of us in this House, I venture to say, Mr.

Speaker, almost every member of this House lives or is living on an income and on a standard far abov<" that, far above that of the greater number of the people in this province. That should not make us any less sensitive, Mr. Speaker. What do we make in this House? Honourable 1256

February 21, 1974 Tape no. 385 Page 3 gentlemen have different incomes, Sir, and it is their own business. The minimu111 we make, Sir, is $14,500 a year of which $4, 000 is tax free and we have to bear such expenses as we have as M.H.A. 1 s out of that; travel to and fro111 our constituencies, that sort of thing.. Sir• we are better off than most of the people in Newfoundland . When our wives go to buy groceries - not a very eloquent thing, perhaps not the sort of act on which the great speeches are made - Your Honour' s wife does not go to buy groce r ies. Your Honour l believe is probabl y the sole bachelor 1257

February 21, 1974 Tape No.386 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: left in the House now. No married man could say he is the only sensible man left. Your Hon.,ur may perhaps buy his own groceries but whoev£'r buys groceries for Your Honour, the rest of us I submit in most cases our wives take the money along to the supennarket and bring back the r,roceries. Everyone of us, Sir, it effects everyone of us.

Occasionally I am conscripted, co-opted to go along-to the supermarket 1 sometimes to act as payer, and other times to act as carrier and other times to suggest that· we buy some more pickles or some more smoked oysters or the things that are not on the grocery list. But I am struck, Sir, each time I go to the supermarket or each time I am told what the weekly expenditure total has been and how rapidly prices are risinB and I am sure any honourable member any­ one, with any direct knowledge of what is going on in this rather important matter of food, knows what is happening and is struck back.

Sir, we have incomes. Every member of this House has an income that is above about ninety per cent of the people in this province who are trying to live on incomes far below us. Ministers of the Crown, Sir, make about $30,000 a year, or at least they are paid that. I earn that much and I am paid it. Sir, there are very few people in Newfoundland, other than a few doctors and a few lawyers and a few businessmen perhaps, who are making that sort of money. I am nol sure at times we have any idea of what is happening, the cost of living, what it means' when the price of sur,ar r,o,'s up fourteen cents a pound.

To us we have disposable incomes. We can absorb some of that. What about the electricity bills goine up an average of six per cent but in fact seventeen per cent for electric heat. What about the price of oil? True, Sir, the government have taken off the fuel tax and I com.~end them for it. I would have no hesitation •in mentioning it, Sir. l • uq;ed them to do it. My colleague from Bel] Island urged thrm to do it several hundred times as is his 1258

February 21, 1974 Tape No. 386 NM - 2 wont. Finally they did it Rnd I thank them. I am sorry? AN HON. MEMBER: Why do you not urge us to take away all taxes? -MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think we should take away all taxes. I would not suggest that, Sir, that is the sort of thing the Tory Party used to suggest, A.~ HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, NEARY: We suggested you all resign. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman feels I ani coming close to it. He has not even heard the speech. MR, CROSBIE: I can guess it. MR. ROBERTS: Oh! He can guess it.

Well his guess work, Sir, is about as good as guessing what happened to Bill Saunders. MR. CROSBIE: Unfortunately we will never find that out. MR. ROBERTS: Oh! Oh! The honourable gentleman, Sir, hopes devoutly that we will never find out, He hopes devoutly that we will never find out about Bill Saunders, but we shall, Sir. There are men in Newfoundland with guilty consciences, Sir, about the Saunders affair. There are men, Sir. MR, CROSBIE: Not at all. MR. ROBERTS: No, not at all. That is why the~e has not been a denial of the facts I adduced. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am quite willing to admit the Tory Party have taken the tax off fuel oil so has almost every municipality in Newfoundland. I do not know if everyone has but almost everyone has, AN HON. MEMBER: Name them. MR. ROBERTS: Almost everyone has. Gander has, Corner Bro