Manitoba Hansard — 2 October 2007 (Sitting 13B, 39th Legislature, 1st Session)

39-1-13b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIX No. 13B – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, October 2, 2007

The Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Debates and Proceedings are also available on the Internet at the following address: http://www.gov.mb.ca/legislature/hansard/index.html

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

657 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, October 2, 2007 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 22–The Medical Amendment Act Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): It's my pleasure to introduce Bill 22, The Medical Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi médicale, be now read a first time. Oh, pardon me, je m'excuse, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk). Thank you. Motion presented. Ms.

Oswald: The Medical Amendment Act is going to go a long way to work with our medical professionals and our medical community to improve patient safety, to continue to improve accountability and to work on processes for appeals and other such matters that will be of great importance to the citizens of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 13–The Organic Agricultural Products Act Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education and Training (Ms.

McGifford), that Bill 13, The Organic Agricultural Products Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, currently a new federal regulation for organic food production is providing assurances to international and national buyers that Canadian produced organic foods are certified organic. By creating a provincial standard for organic food production in Manitoba that mirrors the federal regulation, the Manitoba Organic Agricultural Products Act will provide the same assurances to Manitoba consumers. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 14–The Government Purchases Amendment Act (Responsible Manufacturing) Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): I move, seconded by the Minister of Aboriginal an d Northern Affairs (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 14, The Government Purchases Amendment Act (Responsible Manufacturing); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les achats du gouvernement, be read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, this bill updates the rules governing how goods are to be purchased under The Government Purchases Act. It also requires that suppliers of certain classes of goods to establish that the goods have been made in accordance with the minimum fair labour practices. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Provincial Trunk Highway 2–Glenboro Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition.

These are the reasons for this petition: As a result of high traffic volumes in the region, there have been numerous accidents and near misses along Provincial Trunk High way 2, near the village of Glenboro, leading to serious safety concerns for motorists. The provincial government has refused to construct turning lanes off Provincial Trunk Highway 2 into the village of Glenboro and on to Golf Course Drive, despite the fact that the number of businesses along Provincial Trunk Highway 2 have increased greatly in recent years.

We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister for Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider implementing a speed zone on Provincial Trunk Highway 2 adjacent to the village of Glenboro. This petition is signed by David Prost, Val Ford, Daryl Ford and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House.

658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 Provincial Trunk Highway 10_Forrest Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): I w i s h t o present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Provincial Trunk Highway 10 separates two schools and residential districts in Forrest, Manitoba, forcing students and residents to cross under very dangerous circumstances. Strategies brought forward to help minimize the danger pose either significant threats to the safety of our children or are not economically feasible.

Provincial Highway 10 se rves as a route for an ever-increasing volume of traffic, including heavy trucks, farm vehicles, working commuters, campers and the transport of dangerous goods. Traffic levels are expected to escalate further due to projected industrial expansions. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to act on this situation by considering the construction of a four-lane highway that will bypass around the village of Forrest. This petition signed by Patty Zolinski, C.

Chamberlain, Val Thoman and many, many others waiting for a meeting with the minister. Provincial Nominee Program Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Immigration is critically important to the future of our province, and the 1998 federal Provincial Nominee Program is the best immigration program that Manitoba has ever had.

The current government needs to recognize that the backlog in processing PNP applications, is causing additional stress and anxiety for would-be immigrants and their families and friends here in Manitoba. The current government needs to recognize the unfairness in its current policy on who qualifies to be an applicant, more specifically, by not allowing professionals such as health-care workers to be able to apply for PNP certificates in the same way a computer technician would be able to. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and his government to recognize and acknowledge how important immigration is to our province by improving and strengthening the Provincial Nominee Program. This is signed by S. Serrano, Barb Tuckett, Christa Smith, and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the 2006-2007 Annual Reports for the Cooperative Promotion Board and the Co- operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the 2006-2007 Annual Report for MERLIN. I'm also pleased to table the Annual Report for the Industrial Technology Centre. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I'd like to table the following reports: the Supplementary Information for Legisl ative Review, 2007-08 Revenue Estimates. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Manitoba Advanced Education and Literacy Annual Report 2006-07 and the Manitoba Council on Post-Secondary Education Annual Report '06-07. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table the Manitoba Health and Healthy Living Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the 2007-2008 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Manitoba Film and Music Week Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): This week, October 1-7, has been officially proclaimed as Manitoba Film and Music Week in the provi nce of Manitoba. This

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659 distinction is twofold. First, we are congratulating Manitoba Film and Sound, Manitoba Motion Picture Industry Association, Manitoba Audio Recording Industry Association, as they celebrate their 20-year anniversaries. Secondly, this week we're calling upon all Manitobans to recognize, appreciate and celebrate the tremendous successes of our film and sound recording industries over the past 20 years. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to personally congratulate Carole Vivier of Manitoba Film and Sound, Sam Baardman from MARIA and Tara Walker from MMPIA for all that they do and their organizations have done and continue to do in supporting our film and sound industries in our province. I'm pleased to quickly summarize some of the visible developments such as the growth of Manitoba's film industry since 1987. In 1987, the total film production activity for the entire year was less than $5 million. Last year, in 2006-2007, Manitoba had $114 million in film production activities.

This was on 59 film projects, a far cry from the seven independent projects that were shot in 1987. For four years in a row, and soon to be five, the film industry has met or exceeded the $100-million benchmark in annual production. In these years of growth, we have watched our film companies expand and our filmmakers succeed with national and international awards and recognition. A prime example would be Guy Madden. Mr. Madden and his film, My Winnipeg breezed past several highly-touted films to grab the top prize for best Canadian film at the Toronto International Film Festival.

Or look at some of our companies like Frantic Films, Buffalo Gal Pictures, Original Pictures and Eagle Vision, to name but a few and to witness the level of sophistication and production that is turned out by these hardworking companies. Mr. Speaker, these achievements and accomplishments don't end with the film industry as I have witnessed first hand with the incredible people from Manitoba's sound recording industry. I firmly believe there's no secret formula as to why Manitoba's film and sound industries continue to grow and succeed.

Certainl y there are contributing factors like adequate funding support and new program development, but the real success story lies in the hands of the people who work in these industries on a daily ba sis: the musicians, the songwriters, the managers, the record producers, the film crews, the directors, the film producers and all the people who work behind the scenes to make it happen one frame at a time, one note at a time.

I would like to thank the honourable members of this House for the opportunity to acknowledge Manitoba's film and sound industries and to extend their sincere congratulations to the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation, the Manitoba Motion Picture Industry Association and the Manitoba Audio Recording Industry Association. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): I want to thank the minister for that statement, and certainly want to offer congratulations from this side of the House. What we see today wouldn't be possible, Mr. Speaker, and I know the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and I were both around in 1987 when the cultural industries office was started under an NDP administration. There was a cost-shared agreement with the federal government that was started in 1987, and I happened to have the great fortune of being the Minister of Culture from the years 1988-1993 when the federal government, at the end of the five-year agreement, decided to pull their money out of cultural industries and left us with the dilemma of what to do.

I want to indicate to the House at that time we believed in the sound and film industry here in the province of Manitoba, and we continued to fund the program rather than cut our funding. As a result, we've seen the growth and the success of that industry, and I think congratulations have to go to those that were here in 1987 and made that initial commitment and to those of us in the early nineties that continued our commitment without the federal funding. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say to all of those that have been so successful; I know Carole Vivier was around in the days that I was minister, too, and she has continued to ensure that the industry grows here and is successful in Manitoba. So, hats off to all of those that have made this industry such a success and congratulations to them as we celebrate. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave.

660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No? An Honourable Member: Well, okay. Mr. Speaker: I heard a no. An Honourable Member: That was a yo. Mr. Speaker: Well, thanks for the clarification. So I'll ask the question again. Does the honourable member have leave? An Honourable Member: Leave Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I join my colleagues in the Chamber in paying tribute to the contributions of the film industry in Manitoba, the artists, the individuals who have been producing and managing in this industry, and the people who have worked, often behind the scenes, in making a contribution in one way or another. It's certainly been a success story, and it's a tribute to the many individuals who've been involved in making it happen. Thank you. ORAL QUESTIONS West-Side Hydro Power Line Land Transfer Agreement Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I hate to interrupt this vibe of non- partisanship that has engu lfed the House from those statements, but I do want to say, Mr. Speaker, that we've seen over the last week that the NDP government has required Manitoba Hydro, against its advice, to embark on the construction of a west-side power line that is significantly longer than the east- side route which has been recommended and proposed by those who are experts.

The result of this decision by the Premier is going to leave a legacy of debt for future generations of Manitobans, and it's going to result in environmental damage to a significant degree, Mr. Speaker. He's put up several reasons to try to rationalize that decision, and all of those reasons on closer examination have fallen like a house of cards. The real reason is that back in April this Premier entered into an agreement that effectively transferred a veto power control over one-seventh of the land mass of Manitoba to a select group of chiefs on the east side of Lake Winnipeg.

He's handed them a veto under the guise of consultation under that agreement dated April 3 of this year, one-seventh of the territory of Manitoba with no mandate from the people of Manitoba, with no debate, no ratification in this Legislature, and that veto is the reason that Manitobans are going to lose half a billion dollars. It's the reason we're going to environmental damage, and it is a veto that cannot be justified under law or under any principle. He's got other chiefs, eight First Nations on the west side.

He's got untold Manitobans across the province, and he's handed a veto to a select group of 16 people. How can he justify that decision to Manitobans? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I guess it's the right to misrepresent week here in Manitoba. On the one hand, over the last few days he's been quoting various individuals from the east side that are part of the First Nations group that are proposing a Hydro line down the east side and, Mr. Speaker, he fails to tell Manitobans, inform Manitobans, that Hydro has said no to the proposal because it cedes ownership completely of the transmission line to a private company.

Further, he fails to inform the public for his own convenient reasons that this proposal for private ownership of the transmission line that he is purporting to support would be $200 million in revenue a year, again, allowing his argument on economics to fall like a house of cards. He also fails to tell the people of Manitoba with his ability to do so, Mr. Speaker, that at the press conference to announce the agreement on the east side, the Grand Chief Fontaine said, and I quote: This is not a veto. It's merely a way of putting it into action,

section 35 of the constitution which we support; consultation is what we agreed to. The member opposite is on one side of this issue in supporting a private ownership of the Hydro line on Mondays and Wednesdays, and then he's on the other side against Aboriginal people on the right to consult on Tuesdays and Thursdays. * (13:50) Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the proposal that has come forward for private ownership of the lines on the east side of the lake is an easy one for this Premier to deal with. All he has to do is say no. It's provincial Crown land.

It's land that is under the control of him and his government. This is a government that is elected to safeguard the Crown lands on behalf of all Manitobans and what he did on April 3 was give a veto to 16 select Manitobans, over one-seventh of the territory of Manitoba, without a mandate, without a debate in this Legislature.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 I'll read him back the

section from his own accord,

section 3.8 that says the Province will develop regulations with First Nations governments' participation and approval with regard to planning on the east side. It's approval, Mr. Speaker, it's not consultation. He handed a veto to 16 individuals, any one of whom can exercise that veto against the will of a majority of people on the east side of Manitoba. It is the biggest land handover, it is the biggest land scandal in the history of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. He did it quietly because he didn't want Manitobans to know.

If he was a real leader and somebody came forward saying, we want ownership of the power lines, a real leader would just say no, we're building the power lines, we'll consult, we'll arrive at a fair deal but the people of Manitoba own the power lines and nobody else. Why did he give up his control to say no? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I believe there were members of the press gallery at the announcement, and they can play back the tapes where the language is very clear that there's no veto in this agreement. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The member opposite has mentioned various proponents of the east side in terms of ownership. He's been doing that all last week. I've got all his Hansard on that proposal. I also believe that the member opposite would be fully aware that in 2004 we said we would be moving towards getting this east side and the boreal forest and the area adjacent to the east side established as a UNESCO World Heritage site. I want to say, the member opposite asked questions last week.

He may try to misrepresent this tomorrow, but Parks Canada has stated that this site is an excellent site for purposes of an east side–the east-side site is very important to maintain the features and necessary work for the following reasons: exceptional natural scenic values with wild rivers; extensive undisturbed boreal forest lakes and wetlands; intact boreal landscape demonstrating a range of ecological processing relating the glacial history and fire ecology; a good variety of species typical of the region, as well as one threatened species, the woodland caribou, and one species of special concern.

Provincial governments are working in the process of managing these lands with the First Nations people. The First Nations people have also proposed extensive land surrounding the parks for inclusion under this site, Mr. Speaker. The First Nations are striving to protect their land, and it is imperative to ensure the well-being of their youth and their culture. [interjection] Well, it's in Parks Canada. It's on the Internet. That's an invention that was made a couple of years ago. Please take a look. Mr.

McFadyen: That very same reference which is on the UN Web site refers to a parcel of land of 8,000 square kilometres, not the 34,000 square kilometres that they're now talking about. It was a 2004 proposal that dealt with land in Atikaki, Nopiming, and some land south of Atikaki, Mr. Speaker. That proposal was entirely consistent with running a transmission line down the east side. He could have had a UN world heritage site and an east-side transmission line, so he's talking about territory that would not be traversed by an east-side line, Mr.

Speaker, and he hasn't even bothered, in his haste to throw away half a billion dollars and the ability to power a significant part of the province of Manitoba, in his haste to do that, he hasn't even bothered to pursue the possibility of both a UN heritage site and an east-side power line. He should go back and take a look at the boundaries that are being referred to in that report. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier if he will commit today, given that he has–and we don't need to rewind the tapes from the news conference; we know what the news release says.

The news release, in typical NDP fashion, doesn't exactly describe what the agreement says. The agreement says, and I quote, paragraph 3.8: "The Province will develop regulations, with First Nations governments' parti- cipation and approval, pursuant to existing planning legislation to assist with the implementation" of the accord, "the Regional Resource Management Boards, and the Traditional Area Land Use Planning." They've been given a veto under this agreement over the planning regulations that provide them with a veto over what happens on the east side of Lake Winnipeg.

Why will the Premier not commit to doing the right thing, having a full, open, democratic debate, bringing forward legislation that would deal with the

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 ratification of this agreement, Mr. Speaker, because he cannot justify a secretiv e agreement to give away one-seventh of the province of Manitoba to a select group of Manitobans? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, secret, a secretive agreement that's on the Internet, the materials that are provided in a press conference. We've been honest about this issue for a long time now. We have stated our preference. We have st ated our preference up front. We had 82 meetings with First Nations people on the east side.

We met with major environmental groups, and yes, we met with major Canadian environmental groups, Manitoban environmental groups. We actually met w ith–we're aware of what American environmental groups have said. We have studied what happened when Québec went forward with a proposal on James Bay II, and, yes, Robert Kennedy Jr., and Matthew Cooncomb went down and stopped the project for 20 years in the province of Québec because people did not think about the customers, Mr. Speaker.

Those who have not studied the lessons of history are bound to repeat their errors, and that's why we had full disclosure in the election campaign. We said to people, yes, the west side is more expensive, but, yes, we won't even get an east-side transmission line done. Premier Filmon did not proceed with it. We know because of environmental issues, because of the UNESCO World Heritage Site, because of the issue of First Nations living on the east side, the whole issue of reliability.

We know, over the longer haul, that it's better to have relationships, yes, with people on the east side but also with our customers on the south side, on the west side, and on the east side, Mr. Speaker. That's why we were honest in the election. That was the consultation that took place. We were honest. They didn't accept your ideas. They accepted our ideas. Manitoba Housing Accountability Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): The Auditor-General, in his review of Aiyawin, said that this NDP government ignored red flags about overspending and inappropriate use of public money.

The minister responsible for Housing yesterday in this House said, don't worry; everything's fine; the safeguards are in place to ensure this doesn't happen again. Mr. Speaker, does he stand by that statement today? * (14:00) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, when you have literally hundreds of agencies that are put together by well-meaning, good-willed Manitobans in order to provide services to vulnerable Manitobans, you have a variety of skills and they need a variety of supports.

They also have to be accountable, of course, for the flow of public dollars to those agencies. I understand that, in fact, in terms of agencies, there's 1,250 roughly, agencies, and if you count in all the licensed foster facilities, there are over 3,000 organizations and individuals for which the Family Services Department is accountable for the flow of funds. So I end with this question, Mr. Speaker. Why would the member opposite have shut down the agency relations unit which would have ensured accountability for those outside agencies? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, we've learned that back in 2003–and I know the minister would know–a red flag was raised with this government regarding the North End Housing Project, who provides housing to low-income Manitobans. They ran a deficit of $300,000 back in 2003. What did the NDP do? They covered their deficit back then and the organization still to this day, four years later, continues to run a deficit and this government continues to bail them out. Mr. Speaker, what has the minister done to ensure that the North End Housing Project has not become another Aiyawin? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, not only has the incumbent government put in place the new agency accountability and support unit, we are in the process now of doubling the capacity of that unit. As a result of concerns raised in the past, we're making sure that, indeed, we learn from shortcomings of the past no matter how far back they go. As well, in addition to that unit, service purchase agreements are an important part, as identified by outside eyes, of the way to better ensure accountability and we have vigorously pursued that. In terms of North End Housing, Mr.

Speaker, part of the effort has to be not only accountability, but as I said earlier, support. We have to give support to community agencies to do the job that they want to do.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 Mrs. Mitchelson: I've also learned, and I know the minister would know, that many board members from the organization have resigned, that the organization isn't providing financial information to satisfy his department and that the minister continues to write a blank cheque. Can the minister explain, Mr. Speaker, how he has allowed this to happen? Has he not learned any lessons from the Aiyawin scandal? Mr. Mackintosh: This agency, Mr. Speaker, one of hundreds indeed has over many years faced challenges.

I know Manitoba Housing has been working diligently with that organization to bolster its efforts to ensure accountability. Indeed, problems continue and it is my understanding that the department is going to continue to work with North End Housing, and if indeed they cannot be made to be fully, shall we say robust in terms of the funding, the flow of dollars, then that may have to end in terms of that project, which would be unfortunate because they have been delivering some good housing projects in Winnipeg, particularly in low-income neighbourhoods. Child Welfare System Minister's Response to Specific Case Mr.

Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, yesterday Deb Shorrock contacted my offices with extremely serious concerns about her niece who lives in Norway House. Allegations Ms. Shorrock has made lead me to believe th at her five-year-old niece is at very serious risk. When Deb Shorrock contacted the minister's office on July 31, 2007, she was given the number for the northern authority and told to call them instead. Despite repeated phone calls to the authorities she has never received a call back. Mr. Speaker, a child is at serious risk.

Why did the minister ignore these terrible allegations, and why did he fail to ensure this little girl is safe? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, any time there are concerns about the well -being and safety of a child, that is a most serious matter and must be taken very seriously from all of those engaged in the child protection system. I would, first of all, co rrect the record that we understand that there was a call to the office, and there was a referral to the authority and advised if she didn't get satisfaction to come back. She has written again.

I have looked at the allegations. I'm very concerned about the nature of those allegations and so today, Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that the Children's Advocate has publicly stated it's her information that there are safety plans in place and that the agency is actively involved at this point. The northern authority is also actively involved, she said. The Child Protection Branch is also actively– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, it is this minister who is responsible for the protection of children in care.

It is alleged that a five-year-old girl has been a victim of vicious sexual assault by her half-brother who lives with her. But when those concerns were brought to his attention, this minister did nothing except give Ms. Shorrock a different ph one number to call. No one should have to fight this hard for a child's safety. Mr. Speaker, to hear allegations like these is heartbreaking for all members of this House. How could the minister ignore these terrible allegations? Mr. Mackintosh: The member is wrong, Mr. Speaker.

The allegations were brought to my attention late last week by way of a letter from the individual named. Mr. Speaker, the Children's Advocate as well, today, has reported publicly that measures have been taken to ensure that the ch ild is safe. I can further confirm with the House that not only is it important that people come forward with allegations when there's a reasonable basis to believe that a child is in need of protection but that that individual receive information back to assure the complainant that the matter has been fully and professionally investigated. As a result, Mr.

Speaker, the Child Protection branch is facilitating a meeting with the authority tomorrow, and the complainant, Ms. Shorrock, so that she can see the follow-up as a result of her complaint. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, clearly, there is no accountability in the minister's office. He is responsible for the protection of children in care. There is no excuse for his failure. If Manitobans cannot get help from the Minister of Family Services, who can they turn to? The minister cannot pass the buck when there is a child at risk. What is the minister going to do today to make sure that the little girl is safe tonight?

Thank you. Mr. Mackintosh: It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, the member wants to read that kind of allegation. In addition to the meeting tomorrow to ensure that

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 there's a fulsome explanation that there has been an investigation, in light of the confidentiality and privacy interests at stake, I'm also advised, as a result of my discussion with the Children's Advocate today that she is taking a further look at this matter just to ensure that all reasonable efforts have been made. As well, I should just add that it's important, Mr. Speaker, to reinforce the protocol that when there are complaints there is information back to the complainant.

That is being undertaken in co- operation with the child welfare authorities in place in Manitoba. Cattle Enhancement Council Council Chair's Salary Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): The long-awaited annual report of the Manitoba Cattle Enhancement Council has finally made it public. It contains some startling information, especially when it comes to council chair, one Mr. B ill Uruski, a former NDP Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Uruski collected $12,142 in wages from the council in the first 277 days of 2006. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture justify why a former NDP Minister of Agriculture allowed profit off the backs of struggling cattle producers to the tune of more than $12,000? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): The member opposite has shown clearly that he opposes the Manitoba Cattle Enhancement Council despite the fact that producers have asked us to set up this council, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when you are establishing a council, there are many up-front costs and a lot of meetings that have to take place.

I put a lot of credit into the chair that we appointed and for the work he has done to establish this council. As I have told the member before, it was from provincial coffers that we put in start-up money. Producers' money was not spent. The producers' money was not spent, and the producers' money is waiting for a project. The member is wrong to say that we have spent producers' money. * (14:10) Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, the council's annual report shows Mr. Uruski's other expenses include $907.59 for meals and entertainment and $3,096.37– [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Eichler: –for travel and accommodations. The combined wages and other expenses ring in to more than $16,000 for this part-time job. To cover his cost alone, council has collected this $2-backdoor tax on 8,072 head of cattle being sold within this province. Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of Agriculture think it is right for a former NDP Minister of Agriculture to be plucking more than $15,000 out of the pockets of hardworking cattle producers and this minister has nothing to show for it? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, if the member would have listened to my first answer, he would recognize that I said that the money for Mr. Uruski did not come from the producers; it was provided for by government. But, Mr. Speaker, I'm surprised that the member opposite would say that people in rural Manitoba shouldn't participate and shouldn't have their expenses covered. We as rural MLAs have our expenses covered when we travel to meetings. Why is it that when we get volunteers–perhaps he wants somebody from the city to be the representative on their Enhancement Council so that we won't have travel expenses.

That's not the way we work. We value the input of rural people, and we cover their expenses as rural MLAs have their expenses paid. Mr. Eichler: This former Minister of Agriculture definitely is getting a patronage appointment. I can certainly see that. Mr. Uruski collects $336 per day from the Manitoba cattle producers through the forced checkoff. Mr. Speaker, the same cattle producers are still burdened with 1,656 outstanding BSE loans for a total of $61.7 million. How does this minister justify this blatant mismanagement of cattle producers' money without any increase in processing capacity?

The minister has pulled $16,145.96 out of the back of the cattle producers' pockets. Ms. Wowchuk: You know, Mr. Speaker, the member should listen to the answers instead of reading questions that're prepared for him. The member should listen to my first two answers before he reads his prepared question. I told in both those answers, Mr. Speaker, that the money collected from the producers was not used to establish the council. This government put in place money to establish the council because producers asked us to.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 But, the member opposite talks about why we don't have slaughter capacity. Well, I can say to you, Mr. Speaker, that members opposite can take full credit for ensuring that there is no slaughter capacity because they spoke against it. Every time we had a proposal for slaughter capacity, they spoke against it. Jack Penner said investment in processing was not a good idea. The member opposite took out ads to tell producers to take out their money. They are against slaughter capacity– Auto Theft Anti-theft Programs Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): The federal Conservative government has pledged to increase penalties for auto theft, provided, of course, Jack Layton and the federal NDP will let it go through Parliament. It's now time for the Minister of Justice to do his part and look to best practices in other provinces that have been extremely successful in curbing auto theft. Provinces have substantially reduced auto theft without changes to the Criminal Code. So I ask the Minister of Justice: Why has he failed to follow the lead of other provinces with respect to auto theft? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): In point of fact, Mr. Speaker, the member ought to know, and perhaps his leader could inform him, that the Minister of Justice, Rob Nicholson, and Stockwell Day indicated that Jack Layton and the NDP supported the crime initiatives of the Conservative parties, and so he should check with his own leader. With respect to auto theft, I'm very pleased that our numbers are down 25 percent this year, and the auto theft levels are down, the lowest levels in eight years, Mr. Speaker.

Part of that has been the innovative programming that we utilized with the Winnipeg Police Service to increase police resources recently, another five added to the auto theft suppression strategy, plus all of the other strategies adapted from Regina which is different than the situation in Alberta or B.C. where they have chop- shop fests versus Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia where it's a lot of youth doing essentially, getting high joy-riding, and our particularly adapted approach has resulted in a 25 percent decrease. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, the victims of auto theft are up.

Attempt auto theft is up by 33 percent the first nine months. British Columbia has implemented an effective bait car program in 2004, and auto theft numbers dropped in that province by more than 35 percent. During that same period of time, Manitoba, now without a bait car program, had an increase in auto theft by more than 25 percent. We're headed in the wrong direction. So, I ask the Minister of Justice: Why has he failed to do his part? Why has he failed to implement a bait car program effectively in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: There was a bait car initiative in Manitoba.

It didn't prove effective because of weather conditions and because of the fact that it was labour intensive, Mr. Speaker. I would point out to the member opposite that in Vancouver the bait car program, which cost $5 million, resulted in 30 arrests, that's three zero, in 2006. Our auto theft suppression program has resulted in 964 auto theft arrests and 3,417 criminal charges for the same period of time for the city of Winnipeg compared to the city of Vancouver. And, Mr. Speaker, why did members opposite vote against our initiative to increase police officers on our youth car suppression unit?

Why did they vote against it in the budget and during the election campaign? Why did they do that? Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, the minister fails to mention that the bait car program in British Columbia acts as a deterrence, and the results speak for themselves. Thirty-five percent less auto theft in British Columbia over a three-year period. The Minister of Justice and th e Premier (Mr. Doer) were quick to travel to Ottawa to lobby for changes to auto theft laws that the federal Conservative government was already in favour of.

British Columbia, on the other hand, was busy implementing a bait car program which was very successful in spite of existing federal laws. So, I ask the Minister of Justice: Instead of pointing the finger of blame at Ottawa, why won't he point to successful auto theft programs in British Columbia? And why does he refuse to implement a bait car program here in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: First off, Mr. Sp eaker, without any changes in the law that we've advocated, the rates have come down 25 percent.

Secondly, Winnipeg police have introduced technology with respect to licence plate reading with respect to auto theft and decided that that was a priority of the Winnipeg police department. Thirdly, I will listen to the police

666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 department, as I've said many times, one hundred times out of a hundred rather than members opposite. We can do a number of things at the same time: change the laws; increase the penalties; put in place an immobilizer program. Attempts are up because people are having difficulty stealing cars. We have decreased it by 25 percent. A bait car option is out there. The police have said they want bodies on the ground. We've given them bodies on the ground; in fact, an all-time high of police officers. * (14:20) Freedom of Information Response Rate to Requests Mrs.

Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Yesterday, the Member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu) asked the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism why we do not have a privacy commissioner in Manitoba, and the minister was left literally scratching his head. Mr. Speaker, my question is about the other half of FIPPA, Freedom of Information. I ask the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, and I hope this one isn't a head-scratcher, why the response rate for FIPPA requests fell from 85 percent to 66 percent in the past year and why complaints to FIPPA doubled. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, as I commented to our colleague from Morris yesterday, I reported that indeed our government is committed to being open and accountable. We've made information routinely available by putting Orders-in- Council on-line as of January of this year. I would like to refer the colleague from Minnedosa to the results of a national survey by the Canadian Newspaper Association which looked at how well we're doing here in the province of Manitoba, Manitoba being more open than most. I can table that, Mr. Speaker, so I'm very proud of the work that we're doing here in Manitoba. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Speaker, the 2006 FIPPA annual report shows that delays are longer, response rates are down and complaints are up. It was extremely convenient for the NDP government to delay the release of the Spirited En ergy invoices and focus groups until they were safely out of the 2007 election. Mr. Speaker, we have been fighting for this information since November 2006, and this information showed that Manitoba taxpayers were left picking up the tab for sustenance, like beer and wine, for those working on the Spirited Energy campaign.

I ask the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism: Why does he continue to allow his fellow ministers to abuse the FIPPA process? Mr. Robinson: There are several questions in that line of questioning and I don't have all afternoon. I know that our time in Question Period is very limited, as you remind us, Mr. Speaker. If I could just refer again that we're looking at a number of amendments that can strengthen the act that we're currently working with, including matters that–routine disclosures.

We will be soon tabling reports of ministerial expenses as well, much as we do with MLA expenses, and I believe that's a dramatic improvement. Again, I refer to what the Winnipeg Free Press and other newspapers across Canada deemed us to be one of the best in Canada. Mrs. Rowat: A report that was three months late, a phantom privacy commissioner, Mr. Speaker, this government's abuse of Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act is a disgrace. It's no wonder that they don't want to update the act because right now they can manipulate it, today deny and demand fees for information. Mr.

Speaker, it's Right to Know Week, and I ask the minister, why is he denying Manitoba this basic right? Mr. Robinson: As I've been saying, Mr. Speaker, we are continuing to work to improve the act. As in anything, there's room for improvement. With respect to FIPPA, we will continue to work in supporting the work of not only government generally but also the public bodies that we're responsible for through our privacy risk medication project and through educational activities such as the access and privacy conference that is being planned for 2008. Allow me to again refer to the newspaper

article written on the 22nd of September, 2007. We're very proud of the assessment made of our province with respect to the access of information.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 Bill 204 Request for Government Support Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, as Liberals we're determined to protect our medicare system from the problems and mismanagement of the NDP. To this end we need that patients and families have quick access to medical records in hospitals or personal care homes. There is no reason not to support our Bill 204 which would provide such quick access. I ask the Premier (Mr.

Doer) whether he and his party will support Bill 204 to ensure that patients have access within 24 hours to their medical records when they're in hospitals or personal care homes. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): As the member opposite is aware, we have been working diligently over time to increase accountability and to increase response time, and we've done that in a number of fashions. I know that the member opposite is well aware that current records from the health system are available, most of which are available now, within 24 hours.

Th ere are some cases of requests for records that are dated back many, many years where it would be quite difficult for individuals to access that information in 24 hours. We believe that that's reasonable, and while we are willing and open to looking at improvements, we do believe that an overarching 24-hour proviso would not be sensible. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the bill we put forward specifically provides for access to immediately available information, not some information which is hidden somewhere in an archive.

Bill 204 is about sharing information with patients and families so that patients and families are full participants in care. It's about removing the anxiety associated with hiding and covering up information. I ask the minister whether she will join us in moving to a more open health-care system in which patients and families are full participants in care. Will the minister not support Bill 204? Ms. Oswald: Again, Mr. Speaker, we are very supportive of having an open and transparent system, and the record speaks for itself.

Since coming into government, we've put information on-line that was never provided prior to that, information concerning wait times, information concerning emergency rooms. Certainly, we concur with the member opposite that one of the most important things that we can be doing in a health- care system is providing comf ort to families that are frightened and concerned. And when families request information about their loved ones so they can participate, most times this information is available within 24 hours.

To absolutely insist that all records going back years and years before achieve that same result is not reasonable for the system , and so we have some difficulty with the contents of that bill, but, again, are committed to working with families so that they can participate in the care of their loved ones. Provincial Nominee Program Processing Times Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I would question the ability of the Minister of Immigration to be able to administer the Provincial Nominee Program.

There was a great deal of fanfare about shortening the waiting times, the processing times to three and nine months. Today, it takes longer, in many cases, to process a provincial nominee certificate than it does to process an immigration file in a foreign embassy here in the province of Manitoba. That is totally and absolutely unacceptable in terms of the general stream. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Immigration is: Will she recognize that the only way that she's going to be able to deal with the backlogs that are there is to add additional resources so that we don't have the thousands of families here in the province that have to go through the anxiety of having to wait, often longer here in Manitoba than what they would wait when their whole case, the issue, is being processed from a foreign embassy abroad? When's the government going to put in the resources necessary in order to shorten those waiting periods? * (14:30) Hon.

Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): We have the most successful Provincial Nominee Program in Canada. Our qualifications recognition strategy is revered across the country by all of the other jurisdictions. We've met our 10,000 target. Our processing times in our PNP are two to four months, Mr. Speaker, which is 70 percent of all of our applications that we receive here in Canada. Every time this MLA stands up and puts this kind of misinformation on the record, he criticizes

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 the hard-working people in my Immigration branch, and he owes them an apology, Mr. Speaker, for putting this kind of information on the record consistently. He should stand up right now in this House and put it on the record that he is apologizing to the staff in my branch that are driving the most successful program in Canada. He should apologize now. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Outdoor Recreation Development Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose) : Mr.

Speaker, the development of outdoor recreation facilities throughout the rural regions of our province is integral in providing opportunities for individuals to explore nature and maintain an active and healthy lifestyle. Furthermore, in addition to improving the general quality of life, outdoor recreational development occupies an important function in the local economy by helping to attract outside visitors to the area. The development of the Langford Recreation Trails and the Fulford Winter Trails in the region just southeast of Neepawa will benefit the surrounding community in this multitude of respects.

Langford Recreation Trails, completed this past July, offer nearly 10 kilometres of trails for hiking, biking and other outdoor events and activities. The trails are located in a wildlife management area with co-operation from the Depa rtment of Conservation and the Whitemud Conservation District. The trails traverse a diversity of beautiful landscapes from dense, oak forest to open hills, flat prairies to shaded marshes.

The natural appeal of the trails to both the local community as well as visitors is attested to in the fact that nearly 500 individuals have registered at the trails in the first couple of months of operation. The hard work required to transform this project into reality was carried out primarily by volunteers, including Skills Link Group, a Youth at Risk program; the Katimavik project; Muriel Gamey; Roger Cross; Merv and Janice Sumner. As well, Langford Reeve Kathy Jasienczyk deserves our recognition as she has been instrumental in securing the support needed to initiate the project.

The Fulford Winter Trails, which have lingered for the past number of years as a quiet community secret, will offer an extens ive array of skiing trails, snowshoeing trails, two tobogganing slopes as well as a warming cabin. Taken together, the development of these outdoor facilities serves to enrich the quality of life within the local communities and all those who invested their time and effort in their production warrant our sincere thanks. Business and Professional Women's Clubs Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park) : Mr.

Speaker, on September 28, I was thrilled to attend with many of my colleagues, includin g our Premier (Mr. Doer) and leaders of the opposition, a luncheon put on by the Business and Professional Women's Clubs of Manitoba. The clubs recognized the historical significance of having almost one-third of our Manitoba Legislature represented by women. In the 2007 election, Manitobans elected more women as a proportion of our Legislature than in any other Legislature in Canada.

It was an honour to be addressed by the Honourable Pearl McGonigal, who was the first woman Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba, first woman elected to the St. James-Assiniboia–now Winnipeg–City Council and the first woman to serve as Deputy Mayor of Winnipeg. Ms. McGonigal spoke about the challenges of women pioneers as they pursued public office. Having women in elected office is vitally important to ensure that the make-up of the elected Legislature is reflective of the electorate.

As one of the 13 women in the Manitoba NDP Caucus, I am proud to be one of the MLAs who can serve as role models for the young women leaders of tomorrow. Through us, young women have living testimonials that they too can be lawyers, business executives, community leaders and elected officials. I wish to extend my thanks and those of my colleagues to the BPW Clubs of Selkirk, Thompson and Winnipeg for organizing the event. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Louis Riel Day Naming Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to recognize the schools in my constituency that took

part in the campaign to name the new February stat holiday. Schools from Austin, Baldur, Crystal City and Killarney took part.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 Killarney School even picked the winning name, Louis Riel Day, and earned themselves a $1,000 grant for their school. Mr. Speaker, while Kill arney chose the winning entry, and I congratulate them for it, I would also like to make note of suggestions of the other schools, which I think are all wonderful suggestions. Austin Elementary chose Children's Day, which I am guessing is a response to Mother's and Father's Day.

Baldur suggested Keystone Day to recognize our place as the Keystone Provi nce, and Mayfair Colony suggested Province Pride Day, which shows their support for Manitoba. There were two suggestions from the town of Crystal City, which is also the hometown of the Premier's Director of Communications, Mr. Jonathan Hildebrand. I thought Heritage Day and Crocus Day were both great suggestions. I know all of our members would have enthusiastically supported Crocus Day, and wonder why the Province didn't give it more consideration. I hope Mr.

Hildebrand was also pushing for his hometown's suggestion of Crocus Day with the Premier (Mr. Doer). While Crocus Day was not the winning entry, I ensure Crystal City Early Years that I and the entire PC caucus will continue to remind the government of the importance of our provincial flower, and the NDP government will not be allowed to forget about Crocus anytime soon. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mahatma Gandhi's Birthday Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, today is the 138th anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi's birth.

Born in 1869, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi from his early childhood held in the belief of truth and non-violence as weapons to fight for freedom and civic rights. By holding to this belief, Gandhi led the movement to liberate India from the mighty British Empire without the use of guns, military tanks or bombs. Instead, India's independence was won by non-violence, civil disobedience, tolerance and peaceful protests. Gandhi's conviction that all violence was evil and could not be justified for any cause did inspire several civil rights movements and freedom fighters in the whole world.

Martin Luther King's civil rights movement in the United States and Nelson Mandela's anti-apartheid stand in South Africa both drew on Gandhi's example. Their success in achieving freedom and civil rights cl early demonstrated that non-violence and civil disobedience, not machine guns, were the tools to be used to fight oppression. In honour of Mahatma Gandhi's birthday, the United Nations General Assembly, on June 15 this year, has adopted the resolution that today, October 2, be declared as the International Day for Non-Violence. Mr.

Speaker, even at this moment when I speak these words, violence and terror are destroying lives of innocent people throughout the world. In these turbulent times, I believe we still have much to learn and practise what Mahatma Gandhi taught us. He showed us that people from different faiths, cultures, and multinationals or multicultural communities could exist very peacefully together. We would do well to take Gandhi's non-violence and truth to become our model to build a better world for all of us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:40) Provincial Nominee Program Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, it was interesting listening to the answer that the Minister of Immigration (Ms. Allan) gave today. What the Minister of Immi gration doesn't realize is that what we're talking about is hundreds, if not thousands, of Manitobans that wait patiently while this minister underfunds the resources that are necessary in order to adequately do the paperwork that's necessary in order to try to speed up the processing of cases. I find it shameful that a government would try to pass the blame on to anyone else other than the minister who is ultimately responsible for ensuring that those resources are in place. Mr.

Speaker, every other day I am being asked by individuals throughout the province of Manitoba as to what's happening with their file. These are individuals that have been waiting for months, in some cases that have exceeded a year. That is somewhat of a shame given that the government only years ago, three years ago I believe it was, who had this giant press conference, talked about how important the program was to them and that they were going to develop these streams and they were going to ensure, I believe it was three months and nine months, nine months being the general stream.

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 Today, Mr. Speaker, contrary to the hype that was given by the Minister of Labour and Immigration, this is just not true. There are far too many people that are waiting longer to get a Provincial Nominee certificate issued to them today than they would wait while their case is being processed in Immigration abroad. For many years, when the NDP were in opposition, we were critical of the government in Ottawa for taking so long in processing cases.

I would ask that this government take the question seriously, add additional resources to the Provincial Nominee office, and stop making a joke of the process, Mr. Speaker, respect the question as was being put forward. The minister should do the right thing and tell Manitobans, or tell this Legislature, in terms of what the actual problem is, and that's the resources. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to rule 31(8), I'm announcing that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be the one put forward by the honourable Member for Fort Rouge (Ms. Howard). The title of the resolution is Private/Public Health Care. Mr. Speaker: Pursuant to rule 31(8), it's been announced that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable Member for Fort Rouge (Ms. Howard) and the title of the resolution is Private/Public Health Care. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the Committee of Supply? Mr.

Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker and the Chairs, please proceed to respective rooms that you will be chairing. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ADVANCED EDUCATION AND LITERACY * (14:50) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Will the committee of supply please come to order? This

section of the committee of supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Advanced Education and Literacy. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): Madam Chair, no, I think in the interests of being expeditious I will not begin with an opening statement. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Just to indicate that I'm very honoured to be given this position of critic for Advanced Education.

I’m looking forward to the time that I will have in it and the opportunity to contribute to the discussion around advanced education and lite racy in the province. I feel very, very privileged to be able to have the chance to delve into this issue and to address the many facets of it. So I'm looking forward to my first set of Estimates in Advanced Education. One question, I guess, would be around the area of global discussion and– [interjection] okay. That's fine then, thanks.

Madam Chairperson: Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item considered for the department in the Committee of Supply, and we thank the honourable critic for her opening comments. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 44.1(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in resolution 44.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Ms. McGifford: I do take the opportunity to welcome the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) to Advanced Education. I know she's a very experienced person, so I do look forward to working with her. I also take the opportunity to introduce my staff. With me at the table is Elaine Phillips, who is the acting deputy minister of Advanced Education and Literacy.

Immediately behind Elaine is Claude Fortier, who is the executive financial officer. Seated beside him in the orange blouse and black suit is

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671 Susan Dean, who is the manager of University Relations with the Council on Post-Secondary Education; then, Ray Karasevich, who is the manager of College Relations with the Council on Post-Secondary Education; then, Dave Reich, who is the manager of Financial Services from Manitoba Student Aid. Madam Chairperson: Thank you. Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mrs. Driedger: I'd recommend a global discussion. It'll make it, I think, go a lot faster. Ms.

McGifford: Well, I don't object to a global discussion in and of itself, but I don't want to keep staff here for long periods of time. So, if there's some way we could try not to be global even though we're willing to be global, I'd appreciate that very much. Madam Chairperson: Is that agreed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mrs.

Driedger: In terms of the political staff in the minister's office, I wonder if the minister could indicate who they are and how long they've been with the minister, and if any of them changed since the last set of Estimates, if she could indicate where the ones that have left may have gone. Ms. McGifford: I believe the member said with regard to the political staff. Is that correct? At the last Estimates, my special assistant was Cristiana Frittaion, and Cristiana has returned to complete her education. I have a new special assistant whose name is Jeremy Read.

My executive assistant as of the last Estimates, Patrice Miniely, is on maternity leave, and so, in Patrice's stead, there is another woman whose name is Amelia LaTouche. Mrs. Driedger: I'd like to thank the minister for that information. I note from the last set of Estimates that there has been some change in the organizational chart of the department. It appears that there's a flattening of the line of those–you know, in comparison to the previous year. I wonder if the minister could just go over how the organizational chart has been changed and the reasons there that might be behind that. Ms.

McGifford: I don't have the chart from the year before. I don't think that there's been so much a flattening as there has been a change, and that is that the training part of the department is now with Competitiveness, Training and Trade. Consequently, the remainder of the department, yes, is more or less flat. I don't think that's dramatically different from the old reporting system. My staff is agreeing that it isn't dramatically different. I think what the member is noticing is that, while the department is different in nature, it's not necessarily different in its organization.

It has basically been quite flat. It's not a large department in terms of various branches. It's a large department in terms of money, but not in terms of its divisions. Mrs. Driedger: When the minister was making introductions I note that the deputy minister is no longer Mr. Botting. Is that correct? Ms. McGifford: Yes. Dwight Botting, who was the deputy minister, retired on June 30 of '07, and Elaine Phillips has been acting in his stead since that time. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether Don Robertson is still the chairperson of COPSE? Ms.

McGifford: You know, I suppose I shouldn’t have said that Elaine Phillips has been acting in Dwight Botting's stead. That's really not accurate. She's been acting as the deputy minister. No. Don Robertson also resigned as of June 30, 2007. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate who might now be the new chair of COPSE? Ms. McGifford: Yes, I can. The new chair of COPSE is Dr. James Allum. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, was Dr. Allum on COPSE prior to assuming the chair? Ms. McGifford: No. He wasn't.

He was, and still continues, to work at the City of Winnipeg and also taught at the University of Winnipeg. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what he taught at the University of Winnipeg? Ms. McGifford: I think it was Canadian history or else it was environmental history. I know he has expertise in both those areas. Canadian history, that's been confirmed. Mrs. Driedger: I'm assuming, then, that he's already assumed his positions on COPSE. Would that be correct? Ms. McGifford: Yes. I signed the Order-in-Council this summer, and I think it was for his assuming the position in August or September. Yes.

There was a

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 hiatus between the time when Don Robertson resigned and James Allum began, and I believe that his start date or beginning date was September 1, and so any COPSE business that required the chair was, I believe, handled by the secretary of the Council. Mrs. Driedger: Is it unusual for the chairperson of COPSE to assume that position without any past experience on COPSE? Have previous chairs actually been on COPSE for some time to understand the workings of it, rather than coming in cold? Ms. McGifford: Well, Don Robertson came in cold.

He hadn't been on the council before he was appointed chair. That's the only other person who's been chair since I've been the minister. * (15:00) Mrs. Driedger: I would indicate that I had the opportunity to attend the University of Manitoba AGM, and I was very impressed with their achievements and their efforts and their dreams, and I do want to compliment the minister on her kind remarks made about Em őke Szathmáry at the AGM. I thought they were well-chosen words to acknowledge the contributions that Dr. Szathmáry has made to the position and her passion and commitment.

I thought the minister captured that very well. It was interesting to hear some of the innovations that are happening there and also the future dreams that they have in terms of what they would like to achieve. I was particularly impressed that they were looking at a bachelor of jazz studies, which I think would certainly complement and strengthen Manitoba's place within the jazz–oh, what would be the word?–would certainly make Winnipeg a jazz centre, Manitoba a jazz centre, as it already is, but it would certainly strengthen our position in Canada in terms of that.

It was also interesting to hear about some of their, actually, very exciting and innovative ideas that are in the planning stages for the Centre for Innovation in Healthcare System and Process Design for Quality and Safety. Having been the Health critic and a nurse in my past life, certainly, I think a centre like that is definitely what is needed for the future in improving health care as we see many drastic changes happening in health care.

The other new innovation in the works or in the planning stages, at least, is the new Arctic Institute of Manitoba, which will consider the downsides of climate change and look at ways to keep our north strong and free, as they had indicated in their presentation. Those two ar eas certainly caught my attention during the AGM, and I think they're very exciting. My concern certain ly would be that any of these three could be lost if there is not sufficient funding that is going to be provided to, in this case, the University of Manitoba.

As the minister knows, we are all fairly new in our critic positions, and so my only opportunity to date in meeting with any of the post-secondary institutions out there is with the University of Manitoba. I look forward to future meetings that I would have with the other post-secondary institutions because I know that, once I meet with them, I will have a clearer idea of some of their visions, their strengths, their concerns, as I was able to glean from meetings with the University of Manitoba in attending their AGM.

Certainly, what I've learned from discussions with various people about programs at the University of Manitoba is that if there isn't an improvement in funding to the University of Manitoba, they are going to remain status quo in terms of programs, so we may not see these kinds of innovations move forward that are currently in the planning stages and I would have some concerns about that. I know that Dr.

Szathmáry, following the AGM, was making some comments about the underfunding of post-secondary education by this government as something that was a major concern of the University of Manitoba, a nd I'm certainly aware that other universities are also making those same kinds of expressions. In the newspapers, we see that the Brandon University is e xpressing some serious concerns as well.

What they are both indicating, from my understanding, is that they are saying that cutbacks by this government have been so bad that they can't catch up with the money that is flowing to them and that it's compromising their ability to deliver world-class education. They do not feel that they are able to keep pace with other Canadian institutions any longer.

I would like to ask the minister what she's doing to address some of these serious problems which seem to have been created over the last eight years of her government where there has been a tuition freeze, and the government has only partially funded the operating requests of these post-secondary institutions, which is now causing these serious statements of underfunding. Now we're in a position

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 of hearing that staff positions and programs may have to be cut. So I would like to ask the minister what she is doing to address these serious problems which these universities are saying have been created. Ms. McGifford: First of all, I thank the member opposite for her remarks about my remarks regarding Emőke Szathmáry, and, of course, they were very heartfelt. She, I think, has made a wonderful contribution, not only to the University of Manitoba, but to the province of Manitoba.

I am, certainly, one of her greatest admirers and have great respect for the way in which she promotes the university, and I think does it in a very egoless way. With all due respect, I think egolessne ss is not necessarily a characteristic of university presidents, but she sure has it, so I really congratulate her on that. Now, the member made some remarks about programming at the University of Manitoba. The member talked about the jazz program, and I am told that the Council on Post-Secondary Education has approved the jazz program.

I am also told that there have been no requests for funding for the Arctic Institute, nor from the Centre for Health innovation. I know that the Arctic Institute is headed by David Barber, and I believe that he has considerable fe deral research funds, as well as participation from the University of Manitoba, the university of Laval in Québec, Manitoba Hydro and, perhaps, from Hydro Québec because both universities and both public utilities are very interested in global warming.

Indeed, I was very fortunate about a year and a half ago to be invited by the president of the University of Manitoba to go to Churchill and visit the Amundsen, which is the boat that does a lot of the research in the Arctic. It was a fascinating experience. One of the wonderful parts about that experiment on water that I know the member will appreciate is that they have a student component where high school kids from around the country come and do experiments with the scientists. One of my students–not one of my students, a student from Churchill school was there too.

It was quite interesting to meet her and talk to her. So it's a wonderful research project in Manitoba. Now, the member had said that the universities are complaining about cutbacks. I don't think any university has ever used the word "cutback" because there have been no cutbacks. There were cutbacks in the '90s, but since we've been in government, university funding from 1999 to 2007 has gone up about 51.5 percent.

Now, that may not be what the universities want or feel they should have, but that is not a cutback in anybody's language and I don't think they'd ever use the word "cutback." As I say, they may feel they need more, but they've never said that they've had cutbacks. I'm told that in 1999 the University of Manitoba's operating budget or the operating dollars from the province were $166 million, and in the last budget '07-08 that amount had increased to $234 million. So that is not a cutback. That's a heck of a good increase.

So, yes, the universities and, indeed, the colleges–although we're talking about the universities here–may not feel that they've got the money that they want, but indeed there have been no cutbacks * (15:10) A couple of years ago, we began negotiating a multiyear funding agreement that was for the years '06-07, '07-08 and '08-09. In '06-07, the universities and colleges received a 5.8 percent increase, which is pretty healthy when you al so consider that was the last year of the municipal property tax break. The universities got about 7 percent.

Last year, the increase across the board was 7 percent and in the forthcoming–I shouldn't say last year, excuse me, I meant during the current budget, the one that we're now discussing–7 percent. In the forthcoming year, '08-09, there's a commitment of at least 5 percent. So it may be more, but it certainly won't be less. This level of funding is historic, not only in the level of increases, but it is historic in that it's a three-year funding plan which has never been done before. So, we think we've done very well by universities and colleges.

We think we work very well with them, and we're very proud of the fact that student participation has grown considerably since 1999. It's up by 35 percent in universities, and I think it's 33 in colleges–I'm getting the nod–33 percent in colleges. So. Madam Chair, these are extremely important achievements for the economic future of Manitoba and, indeed, th e economic present. Thank you. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate if there is a current review of post-secondary funding in Manitoba right now? Ms. McGifford: Well, currently, Madam Chair, the institutions are presenting their estimates to the

674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 Council on Post-Secondary Education. The process is that the estimates are presented in the fall. The council gathers all the information, processes it, meets with the council members, makes a recommendation to the minister, the minister then takes recommendations to Treasury Board, and Treasury Board ultimately is the authority and makes the decisions. So, it's quite a long process. It doesn't happen overnight. So I wouldn't say it's a review, but I would say it's the budgetary cycle is kicking off. Mrs.

Driedger: Once the NDP got into government, a tuition freeze was put in place, and since then, in looking at all of the operating grants year over year, and in this case I will just reference the University of Manitoba, they've only been given half of what they've needed. So it does not look like there was any backfilling of the tuitio n freeze dollars that the university might have, well, definitely, would have needed. When the tuition freeze was put into place, that money basically has not been given to the university in any other form.

It appears that year after year, except for maybe the last year, the operating grants were half or less than half of what the university has requested In my mind, it sounds like that would be very difficult, then, for any university to properly function because the requirements they have are not being then funded, and when they're not funded, they are not able to move forward with some of the programs or addressing many other cost items that the university would have.

Eventually, a university's going to hit the wall, and it sounds like, with the University of Manitoba–and by extension, I would imagine it can be happening to the others–that they've reached a point where they are hitting the wall because they are being seriously underfunded and that is going to compromise the quality of education and the ability to compete with other universities in Canada. I wonder if the minister would care to make a comment on those observations. Ms. McGifford: Well, I do want to make a comment, and the member's quite right.

There was, first of all, a tuition reduction in the 2000-2001 budget, a 10 percent reduction. I do want to make the point that since 1999, government has backfilled that 10 percent reduction so that in addition to the operating dollars, we have over the years supplied $96 million to our institutions to compensate for that reduction. As one of my staff has just pointed out, Madam Chair, in the year '06-07, for example, we had promised initially a 5 percent increase. We went up to 5.8; the 0.8 percent could also be understood as a compensation for the tuition.

You know, when the member says that the universities got half of what they needed, I'm not quite sure what that means, because I think you could probably walk into any average family in Manitoba and say: Do you have as much money as you need? And they'd say: Oh, we've only got half of what we need. With the greatest respect for the institutions, they could spend a lot more money than any government could possibly give them. I think they would probably spend that money well, but that's if we lived in the best of all possible worlds, and no one does.

So I return to the point that I don't quite know what the member means when she says that the institutions got half of what they needed. They are still going. The University of Manitoba, yesterday, announced in the paper unprecedented capital projects. We know about the exciting capital projects that are taking place at the University of Winnipeg. I'm sure I'll see the Member for Brandon West (Mr. Borotsik) on Friday at ACC. So there are all kinds of exciting capital projects.

So we don't get the impression, when we look at a 35 percent increase in students in universities, a 33 percent increase in students in colleges, capital projects here, there and everywhere, we don't get the impression that the universities and colleges are falling down. In fact, they look like they're doing rather well. I might add while I'm talking here, that not only do we have responsibility for funding universities and colleges and their operating dollars, and I could throw out here the new University College of the North, but we have a responsibility to students.

If it weren't for students, universities and colleges don't really have much purpose. I'm sure we'll get to student aid, so maybe I should reserve it for them, but students have been extremely important, extremely well supported by this government in many innovative ways. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate for me whether or not these would be accurate numbers? In '01-02, I understand that the university requested an

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 675 operating grant of 6.8 percent and received a grant from the government of 3.6. Would that be accurate? Ms. McGifford: It could well be. We don't have the information going back to–was that '01-02? An Honourable Member: '01-02. Ms. McGifford: We don't have that information here, but I think we can provide the member with that information. Mrs. Driedger: I'll go through, then, the information I have, and if she doesn't have it here now, I would be okay with getting it at some point in the near future.

But the information I have year-over-year, and as I indicated, '01-02, the University of Manitoba requested 6.8 percent and got 3.6 percent. In '02-03, they requested 5.7 percent and got only 1.7 percent. In '03-04, they requested 5.3 percent and got 2.7 percent. In '04-05, they requested 5.1 percent and got only 1.7 percent. In '05-06, they requested 6.5 percent and got a 2.25 percent. In '06-07, they requested 8.9 percent and got 5.8 percent. * (15:20) So, if the minister could check her information and see if my numbers are accurate, I would appreciate that.

That is what I was referencing in my last question to the minister is that the University of Manitoba has been requesting operating grant increases that have, certain l y , b e e n i n s o m e y e a r s way off the mark in terms of what they got from this government. That is why I am indicating and have said they've only been given half of what they've needed. In many cases, it's not even half.

So I think what I would assume the university has done year over year, as any budgeting mechanism that would take place in any business, would be to look at what you need and you fairly put forward what that budget should be. You don't base it on frivolity, but you base it on the needs of your business. In this case it's the business of teaching students. It seems that the university has been given far below, in many instances, what they have asked for.

Could I ask the minister–and she's saying that, for instance, in '08-09 they have been given a 5 percent commitment–where the number 5 percent would come from then? Is it just pulled out of the air? It's certainly far off from what the university is indicating they need in order to move beyond the status quo. If they are only given 5 percent, which is well below what they're asking, then we're going to have to assume then they're not even going to be able to meet the status quo, that there will have to be some cuts of some kind made by the university.

So can I ask the minister where the 5 percent, or where her numbers have come from year after year, because they're quite far off from what the University of Manitoba has said they needed in order to properly operate. Ms. McGifford: I just want to once again point out to the member that there's a little bit of difference between the definition of the words "need" and "request." I want to underline the point again that, as I said, you could go into any home in Manitoba and people would say this is what we would like, but that may not necessarily equate with need.

Universities, like every other institution, Madam Chair, are competing with other institutions, not just educational institutions, but public schools, all kinds of other publicly supported agencies sometimes for some scarce dollars. I don't think that they necessarily expect that all their requests will be met. I think they would like that. So would we all, but I don't think that they necessarily expect that they will be met. I should also point out to the member that inflation rates are between 2 percent and 3 percent. The requests that she has read off–and I think they're probably right.

Those requests are probably accurate. I'm sure the member got those requests from accurate information. Anyway, the inflation rates are between 2 percent and 3 percent, and the requests from the University of Manitoba, indeed for most of our public institutions, are far in advance of inflation, but those are their requests. They may not necessarily be the same as need. Now, the member asked me about the numbers for '08-09, '07-08 and '06-07. In the budget year '06-07 we negotiated a three-year funding window option, I suppose, with the universities and the colleges.

This was in response to requests from the universities and colleges who said that it was very difficult to get funding for one year only and that it would be much more compatible with their needs if they had multiyear funding so that they knew what they were getting and obviously could manage their budgets. So, in response to that, we negotiated a then deal of 5 percent for the next three years, but it was an at least 5 percent. I point out to the member again that

676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 in '06-07 it was 5.8 percent, and I indicated that we certainly saw the .8 as a way of compensating for the tuition freeze, which we had backfilled up to the 1999 levels. Then there was an added 1.2 percent in municipal property tax breaks. In '07-08, we had promised at least 5 percent, but we provided the universities and colleges with 7 percent and in the forthcoming year, the last year of that multi-year funding arrangement, it's at least 5 percent. So the numbers were part of the negotiating process from the '06-07 budget year. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister tell us if it is true that some faculties have been forced to cut back the number of labs offered in order to manage within the dollars they've been given? Ms. McGifford: We're not aware of that. Indeed, the member may or may not know that the University of Manitoba and the University of Winnipeg, this year, increased lab fees to students, and so I'd be very surprised if they cut them back, but we're not aware of that. Mrs. Driedger: Is it true that the University of Manitoba hasn't been able to increase its supply budget for over a decade despite inflationary costs? Ms.

McGifford: You know, this is a level of detail that we don't get into with the University of Manitoba. As the member knows, it's a self- governing body and we don't get into the details of its supply budget. Mrs. Driedger: Is it true that a lot of the lab equipment is obsolete at the University of Manitoba? Ms. McGifford: I am informed that some of the lab equipment needs to be updated and that was the reason given for the increases in the lab fees by the institutions. I think we're talking particularly about the University of Manitoba here, are we not? Yes. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate when the last time was that she met with the University of Manitoba to talk about their budgetary needs? Ms. McGifford: Well, I've seen the president twice this week and I am going to see her tomorrow. We usually talk about the budget. Now, if you're talking about a formal meeting, I think we probably met in June to talk about–a post-election meeting in June. Of course, I do want to point out that the Council on Post-Secondary Education is the arm's-length appointed body, government-appointed body, and the body that usually deals with the universities.

I kind of wish it was a little bit more arm's-length, their whole operation, but the presidents do, of course, want to speak to me and they do speak to me, and they do speak to the Premier (Mr. Doer) and they do come to our caucus. We've had several presentations by the university, various universities, at our caucus. So, we do see an awful lot of them and as I say, I think I've seen the president of U of M twice this week and I'm going to see her tomorrow. In fact, I saw her twice yesterday, once today, and once tomorrow. We have very, very intimate contact. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister tell us if maintenance dollars at the University of Manitoba come out of the operating grants? Ms. McGifford: I wanted to tell the member that I am informed that the Council on Post-Secondary Education had a meeting on September 5 with– [interjection] September 25 with officials from the University of Manitoba, and I'm assuming that they presented their estimates for next year at that meeting. I haven't discussed those estimates with the council as yet. I don't know whether the University of Manitoba gets its maintenance dollars from its operating budget.

Again, that's a level of detail that we just simply don't have about the institutions. I think they'd be quite insulted if we asked them that question. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell me whether or not she meets with COPSE, or representatives of COPSE? * (15:30) Ms. McGifford: Does the member mean by COPSE the board members or the secretariat? Mrs. Driedger: My question would be related to, I guess: Is there a mechanism whereby COPSE, at any level, meets with the minister to relay some of the concerns that would be brought to them in terms of funding needs by the universities? Ms.

McGifford: Well, I meet with the secretariat staff quite frequently. The secretary to COPSE is not with us today. Sid Rogers is in Brandon, I believe, hearing Estimates. I meet with Sid or I see Sid on one issue or another, I would say, once a week, at least once a week. As far as the members of the council are concerned, I go to the council maybe three times a year and spea k with the members, but I don't meet the actual council members any more than that. I think it would be fair to say that with the secretary and with our two staff people who are here

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 677 today, we have an ongoing dialogue on university and college matters. Mrs. Driedger: Would some of these concerns or questions that I've raised, seeing as they are significant concerns with the University of Manitoba, would they have been raised with COPSE and therefore relayed then to the minister or does that level of information not get to the minister? Ms.

McGifford: Madam Chair, I think I mentioned earlier to the member that after the Council on Post-Secondary Education has completed all its Estimates and processed them and met with the council members and devised their recommendations and proposals and elucidated their ideas, et cetera, then the council has an appointment with me and comes and discusses the concerns that have come up, the budget, et cetera. But, again, I do hear of some of these things on an ongoing basis as well. Mrs. Driedger: We have heard over time that the class sizes have grown substantially at the University of Manitoba.

It's not just because there's been an increased number of students. While there has been an increased number of students, there haven't been enough professors to break the class sizes up into more reasonable sizes. So what we've seen are growing class sizes. I would like to ask the minister what discussion and concerns she has heard related to, or around, this area of large class sizes and how it might be affecting the quality of education. Ms. McGifford: Well, I know that there is discussion across the countr y about large class sizes.

I know that when I was a student, and that was many years ago, many of our first year classes were extremely large, and I'm sure that many of them remain so. I know that with increased enrolment, institutions have used more teaching assistants to deal with their undergraduate courses, presumably at the early levels. It is strange that I haven't heard. I can say with all honesty that I haven't heard about escalating sizes of classes, that that's been a problem. I haven't had a student call my office about this.

We do get a lot of students who call the offi ce about various concerns, often student aid, but I haven't heard that this is a problem. I haven't, so, I'm sorry, that's what I can say about it today. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate why we are seeing more classes tau ght by sessionals or grad students, and not by professors? Is it because we just don't have enough professors to teach the increased number of students? Ms. McGifford: Well, I think it's good news.

It's because enrolment has increased so dramatically, but I do want to point out to the member, as a former graduate student who taught many classes of first year English, I think I was a pretty good teacher. I think a lot of those young teaching assistants do a really good job, and I wouldn't assume that because they're not tenure-track professors they're not doing a heck of a good job. I think that they are. You know, in institutions like the University of Alberta, Calgary, for example, they've actually moved further and further away from any kind of undergraduate education.

Most of the undergraduate, or a good part of the undergraduate education there is at Ian MacEwan school, and I'm sure there are a lot of graduate students working there. Graduate students teaching is not only good for graduate students, and I would argue very good for students because the graduate students are really in contact with what's exciting about, well, in my case, literature, and they also make some money which helps them with their grad studies. So, you know, there's a positive way of viewing it. Mrs.

Driedger: I'm told that because of a lack of funding, caretakers are forced to clean areas that are twice the size of the industry norm. So I have two questions about that. Does the minister find that acceptable, and are these caretakers unionized? Ms. McGifford: Well, I have to say I have no information about caretakers. Are we on University of Manitoba again? I have no information about the caretakers at the University of Manitoba and what their cleaning areas are. I don't know whether that has been brought up at the Council as an area of concern. My staff is saying, no; it hasn't been.

I don't know whether the caretaker s are unionized. I think they probably are. I'm getting a nod of agreement from my staffperson here. I think they probably are unionized. I don't deal with the caretakers union, I deal with the president of the university, and sometimes with her immediate vice-presidents, but those are the people I talk to. They decide what they're going to speak to me about, and they haven't brought up caretakers. Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): I, too, talk to the president on a fairly regular basis at Brandon University, and I'd like to bring Brandon University

678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 into this particular discussion. I'd like to thank my colleague from Charleswo od in allowing me the opportunity, and thank the minister in advance. Unfortunately, I will not be at ACC on Friday. I have Estimates myself, and I have to be here. I would much prefer to be with you, Minister, at ACC. It's very exciting. An Honourable Member: I'll eat a chocolate for you. Mr. Borotsik: Actually, I've got my wife going, so I think she's probably already got dibs on the chocolate, Minister, but maybe we can get another one for both of you.

It's a very exciting opportunity that we have with ACC, and I'll discuss that at some time. Brandon is very fortunate. We're very pleased to be able to call Brandon University and the Assiniboine Community College home. I recognize and, certainly, those institutions recognize, that education is going to be our road map to the future, and I don't think anybody in this room would disagree with that comment. It's something that's extremely important.

In order to maintain that road map for the future, however, we have to make sure that the proper funding, the proper finances are in place so that they can provide the necessary education, a world-class education, so that the students who are enrolled in those two institutions when they enter the work force have the proper education and the proper training. That's why I'm here today. * (15:40) We did talk, and I heard my colleague from Charleswood talk, with respect to the budgetary process and certainly the requirements. I also heard the minister say that there's a differentiation between need and want.

All of the information that I've received from my president and certainly the administration of Brandon University is the budget that they're putting forward right now–and yes, in fact, COPSE is in Brandon today. I've just confirmed that. Everything they put forward in their budget requirements is need. They're not necessarily wants. If it was wants, it would be substantially higher than what the 2008-2009 projections are going to be.

Right now, as we sit here, the request from Brandon University will be for an additional $2.6 million, which equates to approximately a 10 percent increase of what the funding is currently being provided for by the provincial government. The minister has indicated that, in this particular budget year, the government is looking at a 5 percent increase over last year. However, the need and not the want is 10 percent. Does the minister see only 5 percent going to the university?

Because, if she does, I'm told that the ongoing operating and the ongoing needs currently will not be met under the current 5 percent requirement. Ms. McGifford: I'm sorry that the member won't be there on Friday. I think it will be quite a special event, and I'm looking forward to being there myself. I actually didn't use the word "want." I used the word "request," and perhaps they're slightly different. I'd like to remind the member that we're discussing the budget for '07-08 and not '08-09 and that I said at least 5 percent. But, further than that, of course, I can't speculate on the '08-09 budget.

The budget will be read by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) on a date to be determined, and I know the member will be there listening intently to see what emerges in the budget, but I can't speculate. Of course, we in government are at the very beginnings of the budgetary process ourselves, so, even if I had information–I don't have any information to speculate on, so, other than to give the member the assurance that our commitment was at least 5 percent. Mr.

Borotsik: Unfortunately, the backfilling of the funding that was put into place for the 2007-2008 budget year was not sufficient for Brandon University. They are fallin g dramatically behind in their operating costs. They have a capital grant that comes from the Province on an annual basis for repairs, equipment and maintenance which was alluded to by my colleague with respect to science equipment, lab equipment. That capital grant for those purposes has been around $250,000 and has been at that level, I'm told by my president, for the past 20 to 25 years. There's not been any increase.

However, Madam Chair, the equipment requirements are substantially changed and substantially higher right now. The reason why there are additional levies and fees being put into place right now is because the science equipment that's th ere currently, particularly the science labs are being a ffected, is not keeping up to the standards, and when the students graduate and leave Brandon University as well as the University of Manitoba, they're not dealing with the same types of training that's required going into industry.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 679 The $250,000 per year over 25 years–and we're not taking about going forward; we're talking about going back now–does the minister feel that that's adequate, that there shouldn't and couldn't be some increases, even in this budget year, to try to alleviate some of the deficiencies that they have in the science equipment? Ms. McGifford: One of the reasons for the fees was, as the member says, to augment lab equipment, et cetera, and I don't see anything wrong with students contributing towards their education and the consumables that they use in labs.

Madam Chair, I'm not talking about totally paying for them, but I don't see anything wrong with a modest contribution. The increases in lab fees have been very modest; I think they were $30 a course. So I don't think that's wrong. I think that a consumable in a science lab, it's something that's necessary for that lab, just as a textbook might be for another kind of course, so I don't have a problem with that. Having said that, I think that we are concerned about the capital budget. We are preparing a capital plan, and that's ongoing. Mr.

Borotsik: I congratulate you for that because it's certainly necessary in order to maintain our edu- cation standards. Speaking of that, Madam Chair, there is in my opinion no correlation between a tuition freeze and enrolment into a university. I use as a statistic Saskatchewan universities right now. Saskatchewan tuitions currently are 55 percent higher than they are in Manitoba, in Brandon University particularly; 55 percent, a full 55 percent higher in the University of Regina as opposed to the university at Brandon.

Madam Chair, the enrolment in the University of Saskatchewan is booming is the term that I was given just a few hours ago, yet the enrolment in Brandon University will be down 0.6 percent, 0.6. There was anticipated at one point in time that it was going to be down 6 percent; it's now 0.6 percent. But if you look at the two, a higher tuition fee and a very, very large enrolment as opposed to a frozen tuition and a decline in enrolment. Does the minister see a correlation in those areas as opposed to what the government is seeing as a correlation with higher enrolments and lower tuition fees? It just doesn't work.

Ms. McGifford: Again, as I said, the enrolment in Manitoba universities has gone up by 35 percent. Now the member is quite right that it is starting to level. Now the member is saying he doesn't believe–I understand him to be saying he doesn't think there's a correlation between reduced tuition and that increase. Further, the member says that as he looks across the country and has cited, particularly Saskatchewan, there have been increases in enrolment, too. That's correct, but Manitoba has had the largest increases in enrolment in the country. They are in excess.

I've just asked staff to look for the comparative figures. If we don't find them today, I can find them and send them–we can locate them and send them along to the member. But the increases in college and universities in Manitoba have been in excess of those in other areas. Mr. Borotsik: I didn't do that one. I'd like to shift gears a little bit, and, certainly, my last question with respect to this topic. The tuition freeze, needless to say, is a policy decision of this government. They've implemented it and they continue with it.

Is there within your department and within your own purview at this point in time a suggestion that you would look at or at least review the impacts of that tuition freeze and how it's affecting, either on a positive basis or a negative basis, all universities within the province of Manitoba? Ms. McGifford: Well, we, of course, examine the tuition freeze and its impact every year. You have noted, the member has noted, that enrolment is beginning to level. So I think that's an important consideration. I don't know if the member is aware that a couple of weeks ago the Premier (Mr.

Doer) spoke on CJOB and was very clear that the tuition freeze is considered from year to year, and I think the Premier has always been very clear in his public pronouncements that the tuition freeze is not here forever. The member may not know that there have been great pressures from various student organizations for us to legislate the tuition freeze. Because of the Premier's statements, of course, we've always resisted that, but I think I'll just leave it there. * (15:50) Mr.

Borotsik: We all know that the ultimate end goal is to have the best education for students going into our post-secondary institutions; that's the goal, the best education, whether it be the best equipment, whether it be the best professors, whether it be the

680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 best infrastructure that they have. That's the goal. How it's achieved financially, whether it be from backfilling of the government coffers or whether it be from tuitions, I think, is a decision that you have to make. I'd like to switch gears a little bit with respect to capital. The minister had indicated earlier–and she was quite right. I read the article. There was some $66-million worth of capital projects that are now being undertaken in the University of Manitoba.

We have, in Brandon University, a capital project that has been accepted and, certainly, has been approved by the provincial government and that's the Wellness Centre at Brandon University. Currently, there is, I believe, $2 million which has already been agreed to and another $1.6-million additional funding that was a tie-in with the YMCA and Brandon University. As I am sure the minister is aware, the YMCA and Brandon University have broken off their potential partnership.

I guess my question now is–the $1.6 million is still going towards the original agreement of the Wellness Centre, and that whole total capital project is in excess of $7 million, so there's probably going to be requirements of other funding. Is there a plan for the government to be at the table for all of that funding for the Wellness Centre? Ms. McGifford: Well, as the member has observed, the Council on Post-Secondary Education is in Brandon today, and I'm sure that President Visentin will be speaking about that. Other than saying that, it's very preliminary to speculate on anything else. Mr.

Borotsik: I would have hoped that there was some speculation. It would be nice to have the commitments made. Ms. McGifford: I'm a great rule follower and I'm a member of Treasury Board, so I would never consider speaking publicly about monetary promises without having checked with my colleagues in Treasury Board and with the Premier (Mr. Doer). Speculation is a lot of fun, but it's not a very safe thing for a politician. Mr.

Borotsik: One other area, and we all know there are infrastructure deficiencies in a number of areas, whether it be in health care, whether it be in infrastructure, whether it be bridges and roads. We recognize that there is also a deficiency in the deferred maintenance programs of universities. I can't speak to the University of Manitoba or the University of Winnipeg, but I can speak to Brandon. Currently, the deferred maintenance or the deficiencies that are required to be addressed in the not-too-distant future is id entified in the capital of about $17 million.

We already talked that there's only about $250,000 on capital for equipment that goes forward. That's a substantial shortfall of the requirements. Is there a lo ng-term plan, not only for Brandon University but for other universities which will also be falling into this same category of deferred maintenance. Is there a long-term capital plan to help fund those required infrastructures within the universities? Ms.

McGifford: I'm informed that the council has met or is in the process of meeting–has met with all the institutions on matters of deferred maintenance and capital projects and is in the midst of processing that information and I'm sure will then speak to me about them. So it isn't in stone or anything like that, but it is something that's on the radar screen. There is an ongoing process. We're concerned. Mr. Borotsik: Madam Chair, Assiniboine Community College, without question, can and should be a Crown jewel in the educational institutions in Manitoba.

Without question, the community colleges themselves currently are, in my opinion, very necessary institutions to educate the individuals coming out of our high schools. Brandon ACC, certainly, has an opportunity and I know that the decision to relocate ACC is a decision that's already completed. It's a moot point. It's happening. I'm happy to say that the first opening of the Culinary Arts, which is going to be state-of- the art, is state-of-the-art , certainly, not only within Manitoba, within the province, within the country. I'm very pleased. Mr.

Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair I guess my concern, Madam Minister, is I don't see a full plan as to the relocation of the institution from where it's located now to the new BMHC site. I can see some real potential, and I'm very, very supportive, supportive to the point where, if you go forward with the requirement of additional capital, I can assure you that I would be the first one applauding it. My fear is that there may well be a ratcheting back of that relocation because I don't know the full plan, and not just I, I don't think the full plan has been formulated at this time.

October 2, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 681 My question to you: Do you give assurances that the full relocation of ACC will take place from its current location to the new location? Ms. McGifford: Well, thank you, I'm very pleased to know that the member supports the move to the hill, and I know that the member knows it was a long, complicated process. We're very pleased that it is under way, and the culinary arts opening on Friday, we've already alluded to.

It's certainly wonderful that this fine program–the students were in the Leg one day and made wonderful chocolate, and the president, Joel Ward, did a kind of demonstration of his dreams for the culinary arts centre. But, anyway, the fo od was great; the students were wonderful. I understand that Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation is in the process of working on a full site plan and that the culinary arts is phase 1, and that phase 2 is the trades building, and that phase 3 is still being developed, but it is almost certainly to be the academic wing of ACC. So, that sounds like a complete move. Mr.

Borotsik: That sounds like a complete move, and I congratulate you. Again, it should well be a complete move. I guess the time line is an issue here, too. Well, there are two issues. One is budgetary, and we recognize that there are always constraints on budget. The total budget has changed quite dramatically. It's changed quite a number of times, actually, from its initial inception of the move to where it's at now and where it could be in the future. My concern is twofold. One was budgetary.

Knowing full well that the community doesn't want to have to be short-shrift, we don't want to have half of a location in one place and half of a location in the other place. So that's one of the major concerns, and certainly phas e 1, phase 2, phase 3 are a part of that, and the assurances, hopefully, are given that that complete move will be made. The second one is a time line. There's no plan in place; therefore, there's no time line in place. Is this going to be a three-year project, a five-year project, or a seven-year project? Can the minister allude to that? Ms.

McGifford: Well, government people are involved in some very sensitive dealings at this time. So, it probably is not prudent to speak publicly about some of the work that's being done. The member has got our assurance that there is a phase plan, and we hope that we'll be able to provide a lot more detail in the very near future. But I'm sure the member doesn't want to put the future of the institution at risk. So I'm sure the member will understand what I'm saying. * (16:00) Mr. Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Minister, and that's absolutely correct.

I would never want to put that institution at risk, I can assure you. It's too very vital and too very important, not only for the community, but for the students themselves. I do, as I take it from your comment, have assurances that the relocation will be complete, there will be a complete relocation from one site to another site, and with those assurances I am pleased. Mr. Acting Chairperson, I'll pass it back to my colleague from Charleswood. Ms.

McGifford: I just wanted to share one other piece of information with the member, and that is that Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation is leading the negotiations for the development of ACC, just so the member knows. Mrs. Driedger: Related to ACC, can the minister tell us why they moved to the hill and the changes within ACC are done in such a piecemeal fashion? That just seems really, I hate to use the word "loosey-goosey," but it just seems a strange way to go about carrying through such a significant project to see it done in such a piecemeal process. What's the reason behind that? Ms.

McGifford: Well, largely because the development of the project is predicated on dealings with private-sector developers, but, secondly, I just want to point out to the member that Rome wasn't built in a day. To take everybody from one site to the other overnight would really be extraordinarily difficult. I think the phased-in approach is one that's working for the institution. It will continue to work for the institution, and I'm just very pleased that it's happening. Mrs. Driedger: I'd like to say to the minister, I don't have a problem with the phased-in approach.

Considering all the nuances of what has to happen in here; a phased-in approach makes total sense to me. I don't have a problem with that. What I am questioning more is the lack of a long-term strategic plan that is obvious to everybody that would have more of the time frames on it, the vision, the cost, for example, that would paint a bigger picture so that everybody would have a better idea.

682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 2, 2007 This just seems like such a piecemeal way to go about something.

A long-te rm strategy could still show a phased-in approach, which I agree with the minister that does make most sense because we're already dealing with an operating facility and it's not that easy to move things, but it just does seem strange to me that we are seeing this move ahead in a piecemeal approach, which is going to increase the frustrations of a great deal for people who are used to working, probably, with longer-term visions and plans so that you have a road map in front of you so that you know where you're going.

That's why I just wonder why there isn't such a tool in place, a strategic plan in place, which would seem to me just a good way of managing this project. Ms. McGifford: Well, the member has used the word "piecemeal," and then has also said that she agrees that a phased-in plan is a good idea, so I think she may possibly be contradicting herself. I do point out that MIT is working on a long-term development plan for the site. I did mention that to the Member for Brandon West (Mr. Borotsik) and th e next step is trades.

Trades are extremely important because I'm sure the member has heard of the ch allenges in the skilled labour market, and so they are our top priority. We've got the Culinary Arts centre opening on Friday. The shovel is in the ground for the Culinary Arts theatre. Trades are next. MIT is working on a long-term development plan for the site. I don't think it's piecemeal. I think it's careful. I think it considers the fact that we're working with taxpayers' money and we have to move dexterously. Mrs. Driedger: I don't disagree with what the minister is saying.

It's just for a major project like this, you know, if you were looking at any major project, you don't often see something move ahead in pieces without people knowing what is going on. If an architect was going to design a building, for instance, they don't just design a part of a building and then not have the full design in front of them as they are moving ahead. That 's why with something so broad as this, it just seems surprising not to have a full picture of what is going to be happening there, and then you roll it out. That's part of your strategic plan.

To say, this is the final picture and then, in a strategic plan, this is how we're going to get there, this is what each phase is going to cost, this is who's going to be involved and it doesn't leave anything in the dark. This one leaves a lot in the dark, and all I'm saying is that it just seems a funny way to go about such a significant, major project for post-secondary education in Manitoba. To be doing it without a solid, strategic long-term plan that is established and in front of us, that would outline what's going to be done and when it's going to be done. Ms.

McGifford: Well, I thank the member for her comments. As I have told her, Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation is working on a full-site development plan. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what the plan is for the 700 acres surrounding that campus? Ms. McGifford: Again, that would be deferred to other departments. I suggest Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation or/and Intergovernmental Affairs. Mrs. Driedger: I will go back to my line of questioning then which does fit in with some of the comments about deferred maintenance that the Member for Brandon West (Mr.

Borotsik) has been asking questions about. Prior to asking about the deferred maintenance, there is just one item I would like to ask the minister about, and it is the situation that is occurring right now with UMFA. I understand that on September 28, UMFA voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike vote and that voting is taking place, I believe, tomorrow and Thursday. I'd like to ask the minister what her understanding of the issues is that is causing this strike vote. Ms. McGifford: I think that the member knows it would be unwise for me to comment on labour issues at the University of Manit

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-1-13b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 1st hansardpdf 13b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2a90bfd065dc5f36dee456107cfb971bdbad3cb5

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).