ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PRIVILEGES and ELECTIONS 31-32 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. A. Anstett Constituency of Springfield VOL. XXXI No. 54 - 10:00 a.m, TUESDAY, 4 OCTOBER, 1983. Pr<nted by the Office of the Ouee ns Pr<nler. Province ol Manitoblr

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon. V.c SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI� Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 TIME - 10:00 a.m. LOCATION - Winnipeg CHAIRMAN - Mr. Andy Anstett {Springfield) ATTENDANCE - QUORUM - 6 Members of the committee present: Hon. Ms. Dolin; Hon. Messrs. Mackling and Storie Messrs. Anstett, Ashton, Brown, Graham, Kovnats, Lecuyer, Malinowski and Nordman WITN ESSES: Mr. Vie Savino, Private Citizen Mr. Lucien Loiselle, Centre culture! franco­ manitobain Mr. Rheal Teffaine, La federation des caisses populaires MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION : Proposed Resolution to amend

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee, come to order. We have a quorum. The Clerk has received the resignation of Mrs. Oleson; I understand Mr. Kovnats is to replace Mrs. Oleson. The Clerk has also received the resignations of Mr. Harapiak and Mr. Penner . I understand Ms. Dolin and Father Malinowski are the replacements for those. Could I have a motion to that effect? Mr. Mackling. HON. A. MACKLING: So moved. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is that agreed? (Agreed) We left off yesterday at No. 14. No. 15 has presented, so we're at 16. For members who are following on the list, A. Warkentin; J.G.

Russel; C.J. Wenaas. Gentlemen, I have some concern about proceeding through the whole list in view of the size of the audience. Do you want me to call all the names? I know that No. 1, Vie Savino, is sitting there. I don't believe there's anyone else in the gallery who is on the list to present a brief. Is there anyone in the gallery who wishes to present a brief today other than Mr. Savino? Is there anyone in the gallery who wishes to present a brief whose name is on the list? Mr. Savino, please. lt will save me reading 50 names. MR. V. SAVINO: Un peu de franc;:ais un peu d'anglais, Pere Malinowski. Un peu.

Merci M. le president. M. le president, Mesdames et Messieurs, bonjour. Je m'appelle Vie Savino. Je suis ici pour defenser l'honneur de la province du Manitoba. Je desire parler avec vous en franc;:ais aujourd'hui mais helas! ce n'est pas possible pour moi de parler a vous en franc;:ais pour tout mon adresse. I would have wanted to make my entire address to you in French, but you see, that is not possible for me, at least, not yet. You see, I was brought up in what some might describe as a bilingual town in northeastern Ontario.

In the town where I grew up, almost 50 percent of the population is bilingual, or I should say almost 50 percent of the population are Francophones. Howev er, unfortunately, the Province of Ontario entered Confederation without language guarantees for its minority. Consequently I and others were denied an opportunity to learn French as a working language as part of my education. Services were not provided to my Francophone brothers and sisters in French.

I did learn some French in conversation with my Francophone brothers and sisters and in limited French instruction classes, but never sufficient to use it as a working language. Then, about eight years ago, I came to Manitoba and settled here, a province, which when it entered Confederation, had guaranteed French language rights and the French language school divisions. But alas, things were no different here; in fact, things were even worse. Use of the French language was not only limited but it was suppressed. French wasn't even used in the courts or in the Legislature.

But Canada's Constitution said that French was one of the official languages of Manitoba. What happened? Ladies and gentlemen, it is important to understand the historical roots of French language rights in Manitoba and how these rights came to be. You've heard a lot of discussion on this subject, but I just want to try to put a different slant on it before you today. In 1869-70, when Canada, then consisting of Upper and Lower Canada and the Maritimes, had people come here to this country to colonize this land, they found that there was already an established socio-political­ economic structure in Manitoba.

Here, in what is now the City of Winnipeg, at the junction of the Red and the Assiniboine Rivers, there were three main languages spoken: French, Ojibway and Cree. English was a minority language. And when Louis Riel and his Provisional Council met in 1869-70 to negotiate the terms of Manitoba's entry into Confederation, the majority population made a compromise, a concession to the Anglophones.

In order to secure the support of the English-speaking minority for the Provisional Government's negotiations with Canada for entry into Confederation, it was determined that English would be given an equal priority with French in these negotiations as the official language of the new province; and, hence, Manitoba became a bilingual province. The courts and the Legislature and all of its creatures would operate in both official languages; both 1102

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 Francophones and Anglophones would be able to obtain services in the official language of their choice. Both Francophones and Anglophones would be able to have their children educated in the language of their choice. lt is also important to bear in mind, Mr. Chairman, that these were the founding peoples of the Province of Manitoba. And what was the composition of the founding peoples of Manitoba? In 1870, over 75 percent of the population of Manitoba was Metis.

Manitoba was a native province and it was their tolerance and respect for other people's cultural and linguistic rights that brought Manitoba into the Canadian union as a bilingual province. So you see, Mr.

Chairman, it was not a bunch of nationalist zealots from Quebec that is responsible for a bilingual Manitoba; it is not Pierre Trudeau; not Lester Pearson, not Wilfred Laurier. 1t was the founding peoples of this province, the native people, the coureur de bois, the Scottish settlers, the fur traders. lt was the vision of Louis Riel and his Provisional Council that laid the framework for the tolerant, multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-lin:Juistic society that Manitoba was intended to become. Now before I go on, Mr.

Chairman, I wish to correct an historical misrepresentation that was made to this committee yesterday by Dr. Potter from Montreal and has been alluded to by other speakers, and that is with respect to the population statistics of Manitoba at the time that Manitoba entered Confederation. I believe Dr. Potter indicated that the figures couldn't have been right and other people have indicated they didn't count all the white people or all of the English-speaking people.

I can assure you, I have studied the record very carefully and employed the services in doing that of Professor Doug Sprague at the University of Manitoba who specializes in this area. At the time that Manitoba entered Confederation, a very detailed census was done of the population of Manitoba, and the figures that I have cited to you come from that very detailed census that was done by our Government of the Day. If anything, if there was anybody left out, it was the number of the Metis, because the Metis were a very nomadic people at that time.

They pursued the buffalo and a·lot of the census-taking was done during the summer season when the Metis were off on the plains hunting. Mr. Chairman, these rights we are debating today are not so much Quebecois rights or French rights as they are rights of the aboriginal peoples of this province. Our treatment of French language rights in this province, I would suggest, is indeed a measure of our respect for the rights of our aboriginal peoples. What did Louis Riel and his descendants get for their vision and tolerance and respect for other people's rights? Well, that is a sorry

chapter oi Manitoba's history, that we are gathered here in 1983 to correct. Of course, we know what happened. The hordes of white Anglo­ Saxon, Protestant settlers poured into Manitoba, soon outnumberin g the tolerant visionary majority. The respect shown by the founding peoples of Manitoba was not returned by the Canadian colonial regime. Metis land was stolen or taken away; French disappeared from the Legislature and the courts; French language school divisions were suppressed and legislated against.

Indian languages were suppressed and Indian children herded into Christian English-only assimilation machines called schools. For their tolerance and vision, the founding peoples of this province were stripped of their rights by the intolerant new majority. But there was one aspect of the vision of Riel and the founding mothers and fathers of our province that proved to outlast this sad

chapter in our history. By The British North America Act 1870, these rights were entrenched in the Canadian Constitution. By

Section 6 ol The BNA Act 1870, it was declared that these fundamental rights in the Constitution of Manitoba could not be altered by either the Manitoba or the Federal Governments, only the Parliament at Westmins ter. Ironically enough, the English Parliament, only the English Parliament, which passed The BNA Acts of 1867 and 1870 could change these entrenched rights. Now, of course, our country has been involved for over 50 years in the agonizing process of patriating our Constitution. Mr.

Chairman, I recall standing before a similar committee of this Legislature almost three years ago, and at that time the issue was patriating the Constitution and an entrenched Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I recall vividly that the Premier of the province at that time did not feel it was necessary to consult with the people of Manitoba on his position that rights should not be entrenched in the Constitution of Canada.

I recall vividly standing before this committee and pleading with New Democrats, Liberals, Progressives and Conservatives alike to put aside partisan differences when it came to constitutional reform and fundamental rights. My argument was fundamental rights and freedoms in a Constitution are not partisan issues. The Constitution should be above the fray of narrow, partisan considerations. But the Conservatives would not listen, apparently what I hear from Mr. Green, nor would the Progressives.

Sterling Lyon and his Conservatives became the party against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the party against entrenched protection of fundamental rights and freedoms in our Constitution. I say to you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Lyon, if you do some soul searching, I suggest to you that is one of the main reasons why Mr. Lyon and Mr. Mercier sit where they sit today, and Mr. Pawley and Mr. Penner sit where they sit today. Now, here we are again.

The Conservatives again are the party against entrenched rights of any kind, in spite of the fact that they are quite aware I'm sure of the history of why these rights are entrenched in our Constitution. If they weren't before now, I'm sure with the hearings that have been taking place, they should be. I recall too, Mr. Chairman, another aspect of those constitutional debates. Remember the original constitutional proposal of 1979-80? Remember how it contained a provision for amending the Constitution by referendum? This was, I believe, strongly opposed "J the Conservatives and all other parties.

You can't o.mend a Constitution by referendum, it was argued, it would be too divisive. lt was not an appropriate mechanism for constitutional reform. 1t was too narrow and divisive a tool for the fundamental legal basis for our relations, one with another, and government to government. How quickly attitudes change to the tune of crass political opportunism! The advocates of the referendum, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest are acting on nothing but crass political opportunism. I suggest to you, with the tolerant multilingual, multi­ ethnic society that we have in Manitoba, this crass 1103

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 political opportunism will backfire on the advocates of the referendum. But let us come back to the question at hand, French Language Services in Manitoba. In 1979 Mr. Georges Forest did all Manitobans a great service by seizing on Louis Riel's vision and asserting his historical and constitutional right to be served by his government in French. The highest court in our land has determined that French is an official language of this province and that Francophones have the right to be served in their language.

The one thing that the court did not do is to direct how Manitoba should give effect to these rights. I suggest to you that this was an intentional decision on the part of the Supreme Court of Canada, and what the court was saying to the Province of Manitoba is, look, French language is an entrenched constitutional right in Manitoba. We are not going to tell you how to give effect to that right; that is something for you, the Manitoba Government, to decide.

But be aware, the Supreme Court was saying, I suggest, that French is an official language of Manitoba and we, the Supreme Court of Canada, will recognize those French language rights in law now and in the future. So what is all this nonsense we hear about why is the Provincial Government entrenching French rights in the Constitution? And I heard it again the other day from Mr. Lyon when he was talking to the representatives from Montreal of the Freedom of Choice Movement. The historical constitutional fact is French is already entrenched in Manitoba's Constitution.

The task of the Manitoba Government is to give that entrenched right meaning in the context of today's world and to preserve it for future generations of Manitobans. So what we have before the Legislature, Mr. Chairman, is not a constitutional amendment to make Manitoba bilingual, what we have is an amendment which more clearly defines already entrenched rights, so that these rights may be given some clear meaning today and for the future in an orderly and practical and fiscally responsible manner.

I say to you that this government has been most responsible in its task, except in one respect, which I will deal with later. On May 17th, an agreement was worked out with Franco-Manitobans whereby limited French Language Services will be provided and a limited number of past laws will be translated into French. Make no mistake, the agreement entered into by Franco-Manitobans represents a limited definition of entrenched French language rights in

Section 23. lt is a compromise, concession, on the part of Franco-Manitobans. lt is a limited version of the original intention of

Section 23. lt is another example of the tolerance, vision and respect that Louis Riel and his descendants had for our Manitoba and our Canada. These are the facts, Mr. Chairman, so I have to say to the opponents of this measure, to the Sterling Lyons and to the Russell Doerns, what are you afraid of? Just what are you afraid of in terms of bringing forward this limited right, defining these rights more clearly, to the satisfaction of Franco-Manitobans who are making a compromise? Are you afraid of the tolerance and harmony that Franco-Manitobans are proposing for future generations of Manitobans?

Are you afraid that your children may have the opportunity to learn more than one language in their education system? Are you afraid that your sons and daughters may marry into families with French names who can actually speak French, who can stand proud that they are able to survive in harmony with the formerly intolerant majority? Are you afraid of the respect which Manitoba will garner from all quarters by this historic act of correcting a manifest injustice that has been festering in our social fabric for 100 years? Just what are you afraid of? I'm not afraid, Mr. Chairman, I am proud.

I'm proud that our government is finally coming to grips with this dark

chapter in Manitoba's history. The Metis rights contained in the Manitoba Constitution are not going to go away; they are going to remain. They are a part of Manitoba's proud heritage. They are a part of our heritage that belongs to all Manitobans. Let us not be spooked by the crass political opportunists and the law of the jungle advocates like Sidney Green and the referendum advocates like Russell Doern. Let us take the high road; let us take the road of compromise and the road of justice. Now, Mr.

Chairman, before I move onto the amendments, I wish to comment for a few moments on some presentations that were made to this committee by some representatives of the English minority in Montreal. I had the misfortune of sitting through both Dr. Shaw and Dr. Potter while I was awaiting to be heard. What struck me, Mr. Chairman, what these people don't seem to understand, is that what's been happening to the English minority in Quebec for five or six years has been happening to the French minority in Manitoba for 100 years. I would invite Dr. Shaw and Dr.

Potter to go back to Quebec and to persuade their government to move in the direction that the Manitoba Government is moving in, and I would hope that they would take Mr. Doern with them. And what of the referendum? Suppose we had one; suppose we had a province-wide referendum. Suppose the majority voted "no" to the government's constitutional proposal. What do we do then? French is already entrenched as a right in Manitoba's Constitution. A referendum can't change that.

So if the majority of Manitobans vote against the entrenchment of French Language Services, do we interpret this as a vote for separation of Manitoba from the rest of Canada? Because that's what it would be. lt would be a vote against the Constitution of this country. I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen, the issue is respect for our Constitution, and that is the issue that's before you. I come now then to the amendments that have been proposed, the amendments to the original resolution that have been proposed by the Attorney-General.

I have to say that I am personaliy against any watering down of the proposal that was agreed to between the Franco-Manitoban Society and the government. My reasoning for that, Mr. Chairman, is quite simple. These are constitutional rights. The Franco-Manitoban community is already making a compromise, and if the government unilaterally waters down the provisions of that agreement, then I would suggest the government is not respecting the Constitution. I would suggest that the government is not respecting its policy position.

The constitutional rights of groups, for example, aboriginal peoples, should not be unilaterally changed without the consultation and consent of people whose rights are affected. I would suggest that to water this 1104

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 resolution down would be more divisive than continuing with the resolution as it has been agreed to. Now, there is one exception to my objections to the amendments and that is the proposed new section, 23.9; that is the

section that would permit the continuance of customary language rights in any language. Mr. Chairman, I will support that amendment enthusiastically and I would hope that in the future this government would move to enable the education system of our province to go back to the educational rights that minority groups had back in 1916, before the changes that were introduced in Manitoba's education system. With respect to

Section 23.9, however, I would suggest that there is some excess verbiage there. You are probably aware that the

section reads, nothing in Sections 23 and 23.7 abrogates or derogates from any legal or customary right or privilege acquired or enjoyed even before or after the coming into force of this amendment with respect to any language that is not English or French. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, why do we need the words "that is not English or French"? Is not the English and the French language included in that customary enjoyment of rights? I think it's not necessary to exclude English and French in that particular section.

I believe that was the subject of a Free Press editorial yesterday, and that's one of the rare occasions on which I agree with the Free Press. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the issue is respect for our Constitution and for our heritage. I say to you, let us preserve this important heritage for ourselves, for our children and for our grandchildren. I thank you. Merci beaucoup. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Savino. Questions for Mr. Savino from members of the committee? Seeing none, Mr. Savino, thank you very much for your presentation. MR. V. SAVINO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Rev. W.J.

Hutton, Dr. Vedanand, Bohdanka Dutka, Michael Kiedyk, George Rykinan, Don Mclvor , Ferdinand Guiboche, Israel Ludwig, S. Stephanson, A. Warkentin, J.G. Russet, C.J. Wenaas, Remi Smith. Lucien Loiselle. MR. L. LOISELLE: Bonjour M. le president. Je dois mentionner que la version anglaise est a la deuxieme demie du texte. Alors, M. le president, membres du Comite. Je suis Lucien Loiselle, president sortant du Centre culture! franco-manitobain.

Par ma presence et par ces quelques mots, je veux, au nom du Centre culture! franco-manitobain, reiterer notre appui a la Societe franco-manitobaine dans ses negociations avec le gouvernement du Manitoba. La Societe franco­ manitobaine est le porte-parole officiel des Franco­ Manitobains. Son role dans les discussions et les negociations relativement a !'article 23 ne fait qu'assurer a la minorite francophone du Manitoba les memes privileges que la communaute anglophone prend pour acquis, ce qui, selon nous, n'est pas trop exiger.

Notre intention ici aujourd'hui n'est pas de reprendre la discussion de base ou de renegocier avec le gouvernement. La Societe franco-manitobaine, comme porte-parole officiel des Franco-Manitobains, a negocie une entente satisfaisante avec les deux pa!iers gouvernementaux. 11 reste au maintenant gouvernement d'acheminer ce dossier en chambre afin que les amendements, dois-je dire originals, a I'

article 23 soient passes au vote et mis en pratique. 11 n'est pas temps de reculer, mais plutot de continuer sur le chemin du respect mutuel afin qu'ici chez-nous au Manitoba, nous devenions a l'aise avec la realite du bilinguisme national et la richesse multiculturelle de notre province. Mais, dans tout ce projet de reconnaissance, il ne taut pas negliger l'apport que represente la garantie de services en franc;:ais par le gouvernement de cette province. Le sentiment d'appartenance que cela stimulera chez le francophone sera certe matiere a manifester par le chant et par la musique.

Cette intensification de la vie franc;:aise qu'initiera le projet d'amendement de !'Article 23 aura done des effets positifs sur le developpement artistique et culture! de la population francophone de cette province. Nous croyons que cela est tres sein pour le Manitoba, car l'art ne connait aucune frontiere et peut done agir comme veritable ambassadeur de l'endroit de son origine. Comment mieux sensibiliser les gens a la diversite culturelle de notre province que par ce moyen. Cet enrichissement culture! representera aussi un attrait touristique evident.

Le cachet francophone qu'offre cette province au plein coeur de I'Amerique est deja reconnu dans le monde du tourisme et ne pourra peu profiter de l'essor que connaitront la langue et la culture franc;:aise du Manitoba quand ce projet d'amendement de !'article 23 verra jour. L'an dernier, le Centre culture! franco-manitobain presentait une production d'envergure, intitulee "Les Batteux". Parmi les nombreux themes, ce spectacle relatait l'epoque de la crise scolaire de 1916 lorsque le franc;:ais fut aboli comme langue d'enseignement.

Au Centre culture! franco-manitobain, nous oeuvrons dans le domaine de l'art et de la culture. L'art et la culture sont en

partie le reflet de la vie quotidienne, en l'occurence la vie quotidi enne des Franco­ Manitobains. Nous sommes de I' avis que toute tentative a rehausser la qualite de vie franc;:aise au Manitoba sera reflete par l'art et la culture qui deviendront plus authentiques et plus riches. Pour nous, il importe done d'appuyer toute demarche pour faire reconnaitre les droits des francophones. La personne qui voit ses droits respectes, le traduira en fierte et en joie interieure. Or, l'art et la culture sont de veritables vehicules des sentiments collectifs d'une population.

Ces sentiments alimenteront done la creation artistique de !'avenir. Le theatre, le chant, la musique, bref, tous les arts Of"!t toujours ete intrinseque a la realite franco­ nlanitobaine. Le francophone du Manitoba a toujours cherche a s'exprimer par la creativite artistique, s'assurant ainsi un composant important de sa vie en franc;:ais. Aujourd'hui, nous discutons de rendre aux Franco-Manitobains un autre composant fondamental de sa vie en franc;:ais et la reconnaissance de ses droits linguistiques. Trop vite!

Nous disons bravo, car le plus complet que sera la vie franc;:aise au Manitoba pour ceux qui le choisissent, le plus vigoureux sera leur rejouissance cu!turelle et artistique. 1105

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 Ce sont la, Messieurs, de tristes realites historiques que les francophones revivent par !'art et la culture. Ce sont la de tristes histoires a raconter a nos generations futures par la musique et par le chant. Et, que dire de nos amis francophiles qui assistent aux spectacles que presente le Centre culture! franco­ manitobain. Ces francophiles deviennent de plus en plus nombreux grace aux ecoles d'immersion qui permettent l'acces a la culture et la langue franc;:aise a plus d'anglophones.

Nous accueillons chaleureusement ce nouveau public mais nous souhaitons pouvoir leur offrir des productions teintees de rejouissance et d'espoir pour l'avenir. Nous voulons laisser les themes axes sur un passe de lutte pour conserver notre langue et notre culture. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Loiselle, could I ask you to just slow down a little. The translation is having trouble keeping up with you. MR. L. LOISELLE: Tres bien, Monsieur; mes excuses. MR. CHAIRMAN: Carry on. MR. L. LOISELLE: L'occasion est done unique pour remettre la communaute franco-manitobaine dans la direction d'un avenir promette ur.

Apres 90 ans d'injustice commise a son endroit, le francophone pourra contempler son epanouissement futur dans de meilleures conditions de vie franc;:aise. Les spheres d'usage de sa langue ayant ete elargies, le francophone sera davantage appele a manifester son heritage et son patrimoine qui ont leur place integrale dans l'histoire de cette province. Par surcroit, tout cela aura un effet positif sur l'art et la culture, ce qui retient particulierement !'attention du Centre culture! franco­ manitobain.

M. le president, ce projet d'amendement de !'article 23 est juste. 11 est juste pour la population francophone du Manitoba dans la mesure ou il propose une solution equitable apres plus de 90 ans d'injustice. 11 est juste pour la majorite anglophone dans la mesure ou il ne lui enleve rien! Done, a notre avis, le gouvernement actuel se doit d'agir rapidement et de rendre ce projet d'amendement realite. Toutes suggestions de referendum doivent etre ecartees car en 1890, quand les droits des francophones furent enleves, il ne fut pas question de referendum.

M. le president, en terminant, je reaffirme, au nom du Centre culture! franco-manitobain, l'appui a cette entente telle que negociee entre le gouvernement du Manitoba et la Societe franco-manitobainP. Merci. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Questions tor M. Loiselle from members of the committee. Seeing none, thank you very much for your presentation here this morning. MR. L. LOISELLE: Merci beaucoup. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen on the committee, earlier this morning we passed a motion to accept the resignation of Mr. Penner, and in his place put Ms. Dolin on the committee. However, apparently Mr.

Penner wasn't on the committee at that point and it was Mr. Scott's resignation that we were supposed to accept. Can we change that motion to agree with the committee records, please? (Agreed) Thank you. Rheal Teffaine. MR. R. TEFF AINE: J'ai un texte ici M. le president si quelqu'un veut le distribuer. Alors je m'appelle Rheal Teffaine. Je suis . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you wait till they are distributed, please? Please proceed. MR. R. TEF FAINE: Alors mon nom est Rheal Teffaine, M. le president. Je suis le president du conseil d' administration de la Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba.

La Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba est l'organisme qui regroupe les 29 caisses populaires qui, avec ses services de comptoirs, desserent 35 differentes localites a travers la province. 11 s'agit d'un reseau qui offre d'importants services financiers a quelque 30 000 Manitobains dont la vaste majorite sont francophones. C'est en 1937 que la premiere caisse populaire, ou caisse d'epargne et de credit telle qu'elle etait alors designee, a pris naissance au Manitoba, plus particulierement au village de Saint-Malo.

C'est done dire que depuis 46 ans, le mouvement des caisses populaires du Manitoba offre a ses societaires des services au niveau economique en franc;:ais. Cette initiative a ete prise afin de remplir un besoin au

chapitre aussi bien culture! qu'economique et qui su combler une lacune creee par les injustices decoulant de la loi inconstitutionnelle de 1890, alors que les Franco­ Manitobains se sont vus retirer tous services dans leur langue. Cette loi forc;:ant en effet nos ancetres a se regrouper pour continuer a vivre leur culture profondement enracinee dans le sol de cette province.

L'injustice stimule souvent !'imagination et le besoin est la mere de !'invention. 11 n'en fallut pas davantage pour voir decoller un systeme financier foncierement democratique et appele a prendre rapidement une importance non negligeable dans les regions qu'il dessere. Les caisses populaires sont solidement implantees a Saint-Boniface et dans la plupart des villages francophones tels que La Broquerie, Saint-Malo, Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes, Laurier, Saint-'::laude, Saint­ Jean-Baptiste, Saint-Pierre, etc.

Malgre les intemperies economiques des deux ou trois dernieres annees, l'actif global se chiffre maintenant a plus de 129 millions de dollars et est appele a augmenter de fac;:on importante avec la reprise economique. Les caisses populaires ont joue un role tres important pour les Franco-Manitobains, surtout dans les annees difficiles pendant lesquelles les autres services bancaires n'etaient pas disponibles a la population, plus particulierement en milieu rural.

Nous representons done une force economique importante et la Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba est presentement seulement au niveau provincial, mais aussi a l'echelle nationale. La Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba a !'intention de continuer a jouer ce role dans les annees a venir et desservir en franc;:ais les besoins financiers non seulement de sa clientele traditionnelle, mais aussi d'integrer le plus d'eleves possible qui vont 1106

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 gradues des ecoles d'immersion. Realisant d'ailleur !'importance de la clientele francophone, les banques a charte ont deja commence a offrir de plus en plus de services en fram;; ais. M. le president, nous formulons le meme voeux pour le gouvernement du Manitoba.

A la lumiere de ce bref historique, je veux d'abord vous dire que I' action qu'a entreprise la Societe franco­ manitobaine devient pour le mouvement des caisses populaires un appui vital a tel point que si la Societe franco-manitobaine n'avait pris !'initiative, la Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba se serait trouvee elle-meme dans une situation ou il lui aurait ete difficile de ne pas agir.

Si les deux langues officielles du Canada ont un statui constitutionnel egal au Manitoba, qu'il soit clair une fois pour toutes, M. le president, que I' on doit pouvoir compter sur un statut juridique qui permet l'enregistrement de documents legaux, dans l'une ou I' autre de ces deux langues. Et surtout, M. le president, on a parfaitement raison de s'attendre a recevoir de la part de notre gouvernement provincial, des services dans ces deux memes langues. Exiger moins serail ignorer le pacte historique qui a enfante cette province.

Dans cette perspective, si une entente assurant des services en fran<;:ais n'intervient pas. La Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba devra implanter une serie de contestations juridiques. Nous preferons par contre une solution politique a une imposition juridique. Nous considerons la Societe franco-manitobaine comme etant tres representative de l'interet des Franco­ Manitobains et ipso facto de la grande majorite des 30 000 societaires de nos 29 caisses populaires.

L'entente qu'elle a negociee avec le gouvernement provincial et federal sur la refond de !'article 23 est, a notre avis, raisonnable, equitable, juste et defend bien les interets de tous les Manitobains. Car vues les iniquites et les injustices du passe, la Societe franco­ manitobaine aurait pu etre beaucoup plus exigeante dans ses negociations. Mais elle a su, au contraire, aborder ce

chapitre epineux et emotif avec grande moderation et arriver a un accord juste et honnete afin d'eviter les conflits juridiques coOteux et dechirants. Non seulement la position de la Societe franco­ manitobaine est raisonnable, mais elle represente un moyen rationnel, logique et astucieux pour le gouvernement de rencontrer toutes exigences juridiques et legislatives et ainsi facilite la mise en vigueur de la loi dans un delai raisonnable.

La Federation des caisses populaires du Manitoba est prete a collaborer avec la Societe franco­ manitobaine et le gouvernement dans la mise en vigueur de cette entente afin d'assurer a tous les contribueurs de notre province le respect le plus fondamental de !eurs droits constitutionnels. Les societaires des caisses populaires se prevaudront de ces services au niveau juridique, qu'il s'agisse du bureau des titres fanciers, du bureau regissant les corporations, du bureau d'enregistrement des garanties sur les biens personnels, etc.

On ne traite done pas dans l'abstrait, M. le president, mais bien au niveau des regles les plus fondamentales de toute societe civilisee. Mais si toutefois aucun geste n'est pose par le gouvernement provincial d'ici la fin de l'annee qui assure le respect d'une entente intervenue, la Federation des caisses populaires se trouverait alors dans une position ou elle n'aurait pas d'autre choix que d'obliger le gouvernement a respecter la Constitution en prenant les mesures juridiques necessaires pour que celui-ci fournisse ces services en fran<;:ais.

J'exprime le voeux que de telles demarches ne s'imposeront pas et que les felicitations que nous exprimons au gouvernement provincial et federal, ainsi qu'a la Societe franco­ manitobaine, pour la fa<;:on dont ils ont su traiter d'un sujet si delicat tout en respectant les interets de les Manitobains ne seront pas en vain. Nous appuyons done sans equivoque, M. le president, I' entente intervenue car nous croyons fermement qu'elle represente la pensee et les aspirations de la vaste majorite des citoyens de bonne foi de cette province.

Nous savons aussi que plusieurs groupes no n­ francophones appuient cette entente comme en ont temoigne tant d'intervenants au debats les dernieres semaines. Nous croyons qu'il est vital que le gouvernement procede avec son projet de loi avant la fin de la presente annee et nous souhaitons que tous les membres de I'Assemblee legislative agissent pour porter ce projet a bonne fin. A notre avis, cette loi sera tres benefique pour toute la population manitobaine et contribuera grandement a !'unite canadienne. Merci, M. le president. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, M. Teffaine. Questions for M.

Teffaine from members of the committee? Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, through you to Mr. Teffaine. I detect a little different approach in your presentation than that presented by the Societe Franco-Manitobaine. Is there a significant difference between your organization in your approach to it than the SFM? MR. R. TEFFAII\IE: Well, Mr. Chairman, there is no comparison between the Federation of Caisses Populaires and the SFM. We have two different vocations.

Th e different approach is that our organization, since the Forest case, has basically been sitting back and waiting for things to happen.

That's about five years now, and what I'm saying in the brief here is that our board of directors unanimously adopted a position that we would allow till the end of this year for this agreement to fall into place and a reasonable time thereafter, so that the manager of a local caisse populaire, who has to fill out all the documentation in French because he is a member of our federation, when it comes to filing a financial statement with the personal property registry office, has got to do it in English.

The legal opinions we have is that we would be successful in obtaining mandamus orders, forcing the registrar of these various offices to receive these documents in a bilingual nature, so that our managers, loan officers, or whoever you have dealing with these particular matters, would be able to continue and do their work in one of the two official languages of this province. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, can I then ask you, if you're in agreement with the timetable that the government has proposed in their negotiations? MR. R. TEFFAINE: If we are in agreement? MR. H. GRAHAM: Yes. 1107

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 MR. R. TEF FAINE: Yes, indeed we are, and that's what the brief says. The brief says that there should be action however before the end of this year because we cannot go on waiting forever. That's basically what we're saying. lt is my understanding that, in fact, it has been announced by the Attorney-General that he would want to have this matter concluded before the end of this year.

Not only are we prepared to wait for that before starting to address requests from the courts but, as it's stated in the brief, we are also prepared to wait for a reasonable time thereafter, so that the changes can occur in the various offices or agencies of the government where we think it is important that the French language be recognized as one of the two official languages in the province. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I know it's not part of your brief, but there has been information come to the committee in the last two or three days indicating a significant - in fact, I would call it startling - new amendment which I think would take considerable time to digest and to look at the possible ramifications. If that should delay a final decision, would that be of real concern to your organization? MR. R. TEFFAINE: Well, I suppose any delay is of concern, because we've already been waiting for a long long time indeed.

As a matter of fact, as far as the caisse populaires movement is concerned, for 46 years, because that's how long we've been created and it's been a matter of contention throughout. Now that things seem to be moving ahead, the people involved at the caisse populaires are not unreasonable people. If, indeed, it takes two or three months longer, then obviously we're not going to rush into a costly judicial process when we can see a light at the end of the tunnel.

But if in fact it becomes evident that there is a lack of good faith involved, then obviously at that point, we believe we stand on solid ground to be able to pursue our best interest through the courts. Th at, Mr. Chairman, is indeed what we intend to do. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, at the bottom of Page 4, the final paragraph, the first sentence, "However, in the event that the government ignores our legitimate requests and refuses to act before the end of the year," if I interpret that correctly, the government can take account of your request and still not act before the end of the year and that wouldn't concern you too much. MR. R. TEFFAINE: Well, I'm saying that we have another avenue that we can pursue. lt is, as I state at the beginning of the brief, our intention and indeed the unanimous decision of our board of directors to co­ operate with the government.

We think that this is a good agreement. We think it's fair; we think it's equitable and we're going to do all we can in order to support it. However, if for some reason or other, there are undue delays either emanating from the government, or emanating from filibustering from other parties or whatever, then we're prepared to go to the courts because we think that we can get the situation remedied through that process. We don't want this; we think that a political solution is preferable to a judicial imposition.

But sooner or later, we're going to have to act because some people are accusing us, the board, because we represent all of the individual caisse populaires, of perhaps not proceeding with this thing as quickly as we should have. We say it's because we're bending over backwards basically to be accommodating, but hopefully now we can see things starting to happen and we're not going to have to go through the difficult and costly process of judicial recourse. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to commend Mr.

Teffaine for that type of approach and trying to bring forward in the strongest terms possible the concern of his organization, so I would like to thank him at this time. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Teffiane, I gather what you're saying here is that there is not only one case that is pending before the Supreme Court, but in effect there are a number of potential cases where rights would have to be obtained essentially through the courts.

If, in effect, this amendment was not agreed to because it was negotiated, because it's a Made-in­ Manitoba agreement, that he would accept that rather than approaching it through the court. MR. R. TEFFAINE: That is correct. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the fact that I'm the President of the Board of the Directors is only incidental to my other work. i happen to be a lawyer, and also it is my considered opinion that indeed in addition to those that we have obtained from the judicial council for the federation that we would be successful in obtaining mandamus orders and, in effect, forcing for instance the Registrar of the Personal Property Registry Office to receive our documents that might be in French. That is not the course we want to follow. We want to avoid this.

As a matter of fact, we have been urging our people to be patient because we could see that things were starting to move. We think that this agreement is a good agreement; we want to avoid legal procedures if we can do it. But, indeed, you can rest assured, Mr. Chairman, that there would be a series of cases that would come forward in a relatively short period of time and, in my view, would create more chaos because these people wouldn't have the time to get ready.

The beauty of a negotiated agreement is that people who are reasonable will allow the time required for the Land Titles Office, for the Personal Property Office, to prepare so that we can do it in an organized and civilized fashion. If you have a judgment from a judge who says, tomorrow morning you got to start doing this, put yourself in the shoes of those civil servants who are not prepared for it. lt would be my hope that they would be wise enough and would have put into place a mechanism already to be able to receive those requests when they are presented.

But in any event, I am saying that our federation is going to bend over backwards to co­ operate, but there's just so far you can bend before you break, I guess, Mr. Chairman, that's what I'm saying. HON. J. STORIE: One final question. You indicated in your brief that you were heartened to see the number of Anglophones that had come forward and supported 1108

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 the amendment and the re-establishment of Francophone rights. MR. R. TEFFAINE: I don't think I said Anglophones, I said non-Francophones. HON. J. STORIE: Non-Francophones. I'm wondering what, in your opinion, is the greatest cause for opposition given that, as you suggest in your brief as well, that there are no detractions from existing rights for any other group, that in fact it is the re-establishment of a long-standing injustice. MR. R. TEFFAINE: lt is, sir, a source of great puzzlement to me.

I don't understand it I cannot understand people who, if they read the text, cannot possibly feel threatened by what is contained in this agreement, would, if they use any logic and reason, wish to avoid costly, tearing, judicial proceedings and simply inspired by a sense of fair play, say to everyone concerned, oh, for God's sake, let's go ahead with this.

To me, what I've witnessed is that in particular there has been a much greater co-operation since this has started with the various ethnic communities and the Francophone community in Manitoba. lt has had that positive effect. 1 would hope - and I can't because I've been out of the province, out of the country, for awhile so I haven't followed all the debates - and indeed if I was reading in the paper last night that now there is a number of students going to Immersion schools, that surpasses the Francophone population in the franvais school. Well, to me, that is hope for the future.

Our federation, as a matter of fact, is now putting into place a mechanism to try and go and recruit these clients of tomorrow for the caisse populaires, because presumably if they take their education in French they will want to continue in that. I cannot understand, Mr. Chairman, why people oppose this agreement because to me it is so rational, equitable and fair that any citizen with any vision of the future of the province and the country has got to support it. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Teffaine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions for Mr. Teffaine? Seeing none, thank you very much for your presentation. MR.

R. TEFFAINE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Leo Teillet, Guy Savoie, Tom Cohoe, Mario Sosa, Ron Nash, lvan Merritt, Luba A. Kwasney, Dr. Joe Slogan, Roy Brunka, Heather Stone, Henry Huber, Jack Froese, Peter Thiessen, Ruth Pear, AI Wexler, Derwyn Davies, Charlie Washington, Jesse Vorst, Ken Morley, Taib Soufi. Is there anyone in the gallery who has not presented a brief, whose name was not called, who wishes to present a brief this morning? What is the will and pleasure of the committee? We've exhausted the list to date. A DELEGATE: Do we start right at 2:00 o'clock? A DELEGATE: 2:00 o'clock. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We ask at the same time then for the Clerk's Office to call those individuals who have not yet been heard and advise them that the committee will not sit further after the 2:00 o'clock sitting if the list is once again exhausted. Is that a fair statement? (Agreed) That's agreed. Agreed and so ordered. Committee is adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:00 p.m. this afternoon. (Translation will appear in Appendix at end of all committee hearings.) 1109