'/OL. !. UNED!TED TFANSCR:PT HOUSE CF ASSE:1BLY fOR THE ?ERICC: 10:00 a.:. - 1:00 p.:n. FR!DAY, ~lCVE.."fBER 30, 1979 NO. 41

::ove:.!::er 30,1979 ':'ape !io. lSCO :·t:. s::eaker in 1:-':e Chair Order ,please! OF.AL QL"'ES':'I~:s :m.SPE~.R: ':he hen. 't..~e Leader ot ~:,e Cppcsi tion. xr. Speaker, :r:ay ! ask a ::;.ues~ior. of t..":e !!!.nis-eer o! !1i.."''.es a."ld ?:ne:gyt-tr • .Sar-y) ...,it.'i. reqa:C. :o ~~e ;uestions I was asking hi::t earlier on t.''H! Lower Ch•..:.rc..I-:J.ll Cevelcpment. !n, again 1 t.~e ::ie! •.ri c.l<t regard to bilateral issu.es 1 reference is :n.ac.e in t'.,.o or three places to t.~e necessit.:t c!, : t.~ink the '<lC:::::!s !lra 'shc~-te~'or'interi='eX?ort of a ce:tai~ amount. o! po~e.r.

Could r !irs~ o! all ask hi:: does that a?ply ret;a.!'dless of - he ;ave ~s t.,e ot.~er day t.,e options,t.,at is,t.,e Xusk:at,?lus ~ull tslanC,et.c .. woul~ t.,at ap?lY regardless of whi~~ of t.~ose sites .•s se~tled upon? rn ot.'1e:::: . .,.ords 1i! i: •.;ere Muskrat ir. :."'.e fi::r: i::.s-:a."\ce ,woulC t."le:e l:e an nec~ssi~y in his juc!gement a::d :tas he go~ C:.e ir:.focation so :a: :::~ st-..ip s:ot:".a o:! t.J.:.at. pcwe: out of !.a.braC.or a-: :.eas-: :or a."'. i:tteri.!n pe::::ioc:!? :ton. !iinis :e: of a!.:-.es anc! Energy. !ir.

Speaker, as you know a.--:.c! as me~ers of ~"lis House knew ~"1e cbject o£ gove~~ent in C.evelcpi~g ~yc:o in Labr~dor is - ~~e prtnary objective is for use wit.J.:.in ~~e ?rcvi:tce. If Muskrat Falls were developed on ~~e in!o~t.ion ~~at we have at ~-.e present ti:a-and aqain t have to say t.~at. we Co not have all ~~e !inal repor-...s in- but the i."'.fo.r:ation t."lat we have now is t...~c Xusk:ac Falls if developed would :e developed on ~"le basis of using all t.":e FC~e= ...,it.hin t.~e Province and :.,at the interi:. export of power would r:.ot ~e necessa-ry as far as t.~.at project is conce.rr.eC..

A supplen:en eary, :A.r. Speaker. 3776

~ovember JO,l979 ~.!l..S?E.\.."<!R: {Si=.sl of ~~e Opposition. Tape ~to. !.S:OO ?. supplementary. '!'!1e hon. :..eac.er s•ocnd li~. ~~e al:erneeive site or bo~~ 1 i! it ~e=~ ccncl~~ecl ehat botil had to be developed to<;et.':.er, t.."'ten am ! c::orrect:. in assu:::U..1.1i :±at there '"ould be sc:r.e i.nte.:i:l or some :tecessiey for axpor-: of ~ewer to qat t:..~at larger project uncier,..ay. ~rt.S?EJ.i".E:R: '!'he i:.on.

ML"li.st:.er of :~L"'le3 a."ld Energ"J. ir.eicata at t:.."'ti3 t~e that :or tec!'.nica!. reasons :.ct...':. sit:.es ·..1ould have to i::e developed at ':.."l.e sar.e ti=:a. :t ::ic;ht be :::esira.!::le unCer cer'ta:..."l scenarios to develop bot..~ at the s~~ ti=e,but if Gull Isl~"'ld itself o~ i! =ot:..~ ~ere developed,:here ~ou!.d be eore ?OWer :reduced ':..':.an ~e Provinee could utili.::e interna!ly in the shcrt•t:er.n. So t:..':.at: vt-.ile ::·ou ·...ou1C nee. halfe :.o export ;o~er if you :!id no: - t am. sor=-:'· '!ou woulc! have ~"o options; 3777

~ovember 30, 1979 Tape No. lSUl !iM - l you could eit...~e: sell 3Cme :.l:'.:cugh export or you could acttacc ene.=;y ince..1.sive ir.dus'::'y '"'l.thin : .. h.e Province !0 cak.e up the additional surplus, to increase the <lmOU.'"lt of power that would be cons~ed internally. r! you did not do one of ~~ese ~gs, you would, L"l effec-t, have aciditional capacity lying idle .,..hich ·...culd increase the cost ae which you could deliver t..1.e power L'"lt.e::nally.

So the only reason that we would be looki.'"19 e~ther :.o ~port or to att:~ct ~~e L'"ldust:y, apart from ~~e employment possibilities, would be to ~ake it less upensi.ve for the people in tr.is Province to have power delivered from !.abrader to the Island or frcm '!.l'le Lowe.r Churchill e.o Happy Valley Goose aay or wherever. tf exported surplus were sold at a re.asona!:ile ;rice, or i! i..'"ldus-:::ry were ae:racted to utilize :.he surplus >;.'len you could deliver other power 1:0 t.he citizens of t.his Provi..'"lce at a cheaper rate t..."lan you would. o~"le_~i.se. MR. S?E..\lZ.R (5.:....-:nsl: opposition.

MR. .:A..~ESCN: A sup9lemene.a:y. A suppl~ent.a::y, e.he !':on.

Leader :~f :..,_e t have no quar=el wi:h :he conclusion. ~e basis of ~y ~est~onlr.g is really,: suppose,to ask speci!ical:y ~~is; for i.nstance,when t...~e h.on. member talks about t.lte ~uskrat bei..ng fu!ly "J:t.ilizal:lle wit.hU'l the Provi."l.ce, is t..~c on ':he :=asis o£ cur=ent a:J.t.i::.:.;at:ed demar.ci or 'WOuld there be some necessl.ty fer ir.d.us':rial cus'tomers beyor.d those nov known in order to ut.ilize, t ?resume, ~~e Muskrat., it. hei:1g -:he .imallest. !::ody ~f power that. could. l:le produced;' :n other ;oords, is :::.e curren-e anticipated demand withOu-:,let. us say 1 additiona1 indust:ial users enough. t.o take ca:re of that. particular produc-:.ion?

The hen. Mi.."liSter of Mines and Energy. !om. 3Aa.P.Y: M:. Speaker, :art. of it ~uld. Oe ~aken up ~y closing down the ~~e_~l plants ~at. would be t.hen =~nning. 3778

November 30, 19i9 Tape No. 1501 NM - 2 M..ll. BAP-~Y: ~our produc:ion ac Holyrood, !or example ~1R. RCSZRTS: 300 ae Holyt:ood :1-ow - NR. 9A.~'tr: - 300 ?lus th.e ~dditl.or..al unit. of - >Ut. ?.CBERTS: - 450 '"'it:h the new !.!."1J.C.. ""· SAARY: - 450. The ~ower Churchill Musk=a~ Falls si~e has • po~ent:ial of approxi.."":ately 600 meqawa::t:s • So you can see :.r.at 'Mit:h Hol~cod gol.nq flat out, •• i:. .... ill l>e :y ~":.at :.i:ne, l>y closing down :rcur thermal plane t.here you '<.IOU1d need 450 megawat::.s.

AAd we ant:.icipate ::.hat. demand will ~ve: i~c:eased :o appro.x::.ma::.aly .1not..her lGO to 150 megawat.ts by t.!:.at t:im.e. So e.hat. it. '"'ill basically tie taken :.1p by closi.·v; down exi.st.i.ng t."J.ermal?la.n:.s and by :.:;,e addit.ional :!.e:nand by <::ta:: t.i:l.e. We are not: sayl.:lg :.hac t:here ...,ill be another 600 :negawa~::.s o! demand in addition to · .. ina.t. J.s proC.uced .l':. Holj•rood an::i so on at: :hat. t.i:l.e. 3779

November JO, 1979 HR.

S?EAK3.?.: (Sit:"ir!S l .t.ead.er of t.~e Opposieion. rape 1302 r:c - - A final supplecen:ary, :..1.e ~on. tile Aga.i.."l, just:. for in!or:::tat.ional ?t.:...""?cses, because t a:~. trying eo get:. sotr.e cla:J.fication u t.o :..1.e t:.i:::inq di!'hc-..:.:t.ies or problems or opport.U."'tities, whic.ltever way on~ 'o<~isnes :o pue it.; a!:l I eorrsc::t L'l assuming t..'lat. even i! ~"tere is no ne•.., cusecmer available or t.he pla..'ts that have been ciiscussed .,..i~'l reqa:d t.o i::Cuserial developcen:., let:. us say, .,..ithin r.abrar!or some-where or, indeed, on tl':.e :sla:-:.d, i! t..'lera i" no large user of ?OWer, :..":.is is not:. going <:.o be an i=.pedi:ten:. ~o St.a.r'""..ing whe.'l all of t.~e ot..'ler -:.';J.ngs 'Jh.ic.'l ::.e :.:.roister Ct.lt:.li.'l•Hi ~arlia: in ~e .,..eek have been done? !.s :..'tat a cor:ec:"t asstJ.:'!?t.iOt".7 !-tiL S?E.";..~?.: The Z'lon. t.'le !'iir..i.3ter of :tines a.:.C. £."!.ergy • !.ut. 3A..!Ul.Y : cot:::erned., !,t:, Speaker, it:. does not. appear :..'lat. it. ·.;ou.ld ::=e nec:essa.::"'J :;, :'lave a. large l:Ser of po .... er a:.:.rac:":aci t.o e.1.e ?rovince.

The ?rCZlem may ::.e - a.."'td I wan: :.o eau-:ion hen. merGers - t..~e ?roble.o. :.a·; =~ :..~a: tne pr.:.ce ?er kilc.,..ao:t: hour !ro~n Xuskrat Falls ::~ay be h!.gter :..'tar:. t.."le prl.ce per :<.ilo,...att: hour !rom :::iu.ll !Silar.d. Sp t..~at:. is your Cisadv~~:age. The advant:.agef of course, is ~"1a.t i! t.'tere is a s::.Ular .:::apita.l cos:. :hen it should t;oe easier ':0 !inanee a.nd gee. it of: :he q::~ur.d a:.d you ·,...o'..:.!.:! MR. FCBER"!'S: :1?.. SPEA..~R: of Belle Isle. MR. ~S?:RrS: ~. Spea.'ter. The hon. ':."'.e !:'amber !o: "t..'le Se:ait. Mr.

SpeMer, ! would !.ike tc asi; a question or two of t..'le Min.ist.er of !-tines a.nd Energy grovinq ou: of :.he :ta:t:ers raised by rtrt friend, :.he Leader of e."1e Opposition. Firs-:. of all, : wonC.er i.! t..'1~ ::inis:o:r could :ell us with respeet eo the 600 ~qawa:": block of power w~i~~ wLl! be gene.:-a:ed assw.inq !·tus!<.rae goes ahea.d,~4nci I U..'lderst.and :'lim -;o say ~50 tt".egawat:s of :.~tat .,..odd be absorbed i..1.to t.1.e !s:l.ar.C ;rid 3780

~:ovameer JO, 19 i9 Tape 1502 te - 2 t.l.;..rea t.'1. .. u"::a1 uni:.s at Holyrood - ! underseooa e.'la.e i3 -.:..i.e pla:·1. That 'lo'Ould lda.ve !.SO :::.egawa.~:.s ~c Z,e aDsorb-ad. T~e gas t:.urbine at:. 5eephenvi1la. The gas t:.~ine at:. St:.ephenville. There .!.3 one, : believe, on ~a aurl.n ?eninsul.a a.s well. a.nd t:.-.e::a is a. t.'te:-:.a.l plant. acress t."le hcbou: ~ere in St • .:or. .. :t 1 s .,..hieh . .:.s used for peaic.ing poloo"e::. The oos e ex;:ensi ve powe:: in :.i.e world. :ut. ?!JBE?.TS : r:. i:J ver::' expensive powe.:. mi.'1isee.r.

I wonder if : .. e eou.!.C. eell us t;..ro :...i.ings, !i:st:. of all, ....... a:. an 300 :reqawa:.t:. ::ons-..:mption Oase, •..-hl.::::a wou.l.:! ;:.ve :.:.s a. ;=-o~-1. o! a.=cue 53 or 56 :'.egawat:.t:.3 a 'feu, a qrcw1:..'t in .:onsw:;:-tion of t:.:la:. :;;,uan:.:..t.j' o: power. peopla a:e using less energ-j :l:' :...o:.e ra:.e o: :..ncrea.sa has gone ::io .... 'r •• ~uld he t:el! U3 t.~at:?

Anci growing out:. of :..."lat:., c:::n:.!.c! he t.e!l ·.!S ~ow long i:. .,..ill :e be:!ore ~o~e have :o place ;.;.-.ose <;.'1e:=tal U!1i:.S :acK. i..-. opers:~:io:-:.7 .. ::: :...'-!.i::.i< t .. ite ::o..inisee: ;e~ ~"le g:..:;;:: o! what : a::: get:::.!.~.; at.. And could h.e reU::a t."l.at. :.c t.he inerea.ses i~ power p:c~uc:.i.o~ capa.e.l.t.y '1Jh.ic.1. are represent-ed. Oy B.inCs Z.ake a::.C. by - "Jhat. is .!.:.? Tb.e hon. ;entietr:a."l !orqot :...'le ::apa::ie.y a:. Holyrood.. 3781

November 30, 1979 Tape No. 1503 NM - 1 !·tR. RIDEOt.J'!' t The Opper Sa.llncn. ~~. ROB£RTS: The Cpper S~n. c~e ~wo hydro projec~s now under.~ay. !."l ot::her words 1 cou.ld. he :-elate the Lower Churchill. the Musla:at:. aspect of the tower Churchill, to ~~e power conswnpt:..ion scene L~ ~~t ccneext7 The hon. Minister of ~ines and Ener;y. Muskrat Fa.lh there "JOuld still be .scme use :or the ::ap.L-:al <:.:.At was invested. at.

Holyrood o::- your gas t.ur!lines and. so on in the even-: of a need to - if there was a eransmission ou~ge :;au ~ulj have the dddit~cnal security of having ~,ese plants on the line here on the Island. There is going to ~e a long ~ar.smission line !rom Labrad.or,so you ~uld ~~ve your adait.i.or~l security, so that even i..! some of ':.hese pla."'!.t.S we.:e not:. !..'tare you ·o110u.ld. !'..ave :.o put them in .;1fter you had your t:ansm.ission line !:om tabrad.or. You would not be able to pue all your ~ggs in the basket of LAbrador power ,.,.ich :hat len~•w "::a.nsmission line.

Tb.e insecu.rici' would ~e jus~ too greae. so :.here ·.till be aCdi'!J.cna.l secu:l:ty that will be obt.ai..'"led !:om haVi!'lg t...h.at ca.pac::io;y in reser-Je there. ! C3.Il.tlct give you t..lte exac<:. ti.-ue 'Nhen the !ull amount of Muskrat power would. be taken up.

There ,.,.ill be a certain surplus but:. <;hae is desi.rabla l..'l that t.'te ·.rhole object:. of t.he exe.::cise in deve.lopi."lg t.ab:ad.or power is to provide a cushion f~r grow~. to provide a surplus ~~t ~ill ~e ebe.:e as needed. aut our infor.nat.ion is that ~e powe.: f.:om Muskrat Falls, if ...,e do not start up the thermal plants again, w-ould be :.a.ken up over a period. of a couple of years, t~ to ~~ee years. ~o~ ~lte re?Qrt ~~t cernes in ea:ly i~ 1980 from t.h.e Lower Churchill Development Corr;::oraeion •.o~i.!.l ha.,.e ~lte;:;e figures 3782

Nov~er 30, 1979 Tape No. 1503 cla:i!ied a.~ se~ ou~ ~ere precisely. The h.cn. :nem.ber :or -:.he 5t:rai: of Belle !sle (Mr. ?..obe.rt.

s) i.:> correct when he says ehat t.~e pe.rcent.age i.r.c.rea.sa annually of de::~.and fer e.lec~icit.y has declined somewhat. since t:he so-ca.lled energ-.{ crisis and '"'it:.~ rising costs and so on t..."lere is a conservat..Lon f-"at.u:e of ris.lng cos::.s. ~. ROBERTS: }4.,a. BAR.::t'f: It. is ge.t:.er!ll t:.~ouqhout !-l'ortll Ame=ica. It is general throughout. ~or~~ America !:out ! :tight. say ~:."tAt, .l.nd agaL"1 . .,.e have tc await. these :wal figures !rom the Lower Chu=chill Corporation, it is my ~'1.derst.~nding that ::.e 3783

~O'le:~a: 3~, 1979 Tape ;-to. 1504 5::1 - deza:1C. !..."1. aewfoUr.dla.nd has r.o t C.ecli:1-ed as ::t:.:.ch ~s t:O.e :!e:r.ar:.ci else...,:,.e::e; 1.."'1 :::ort.'t America be::a~se we had :-_ot. Z:<i!er'. :...tiliz!.'"lg 3S ::::.!::h elec:t:.:icit:l L"1. ~ur everyday li•.res as peopla on -;,.'-':e =:ainland or i~ ~~~ United 3tates i!'l terms of use. Wne!'l we did ~~a initial feasibility study a:u:i stilimission :o ::.>:.e federal gove::r.ner.: - :.;;.l:l: ~ea::!er of ~:e 'JF?OSition {!i!:.

D • .Jaoieson} was :.r. qove::n."=ltlnt at t.':e ti::.e - ·,..e we=e fighting with. tilem a.r.d '!hey were sayir:.g, "~:o, ~rou .ll'e qoi::g to ,1..'!'1'~ ;.,;;:er.!.c.:~. sc :z-o..r. Zihould e.:.s:.....~e ::.>:.e;:-e i.s going to !::le a higher a .. mual ··-"· :. ?..03:::?.'!:'~ : ;:..~. ;:. ::tOa:?-'!'3: t..":.e U,;:use; obviously, it is not ne•J ':O· t.~o::: :::..:...:1is:.e:.

All of t..>:.at (inaudible). iiell, yes, ! thin% it is acade:.:..:: until and unless a nu::tbe.:- of ilund:eds o! o.illions o: dollars a.:e ?u: in ?lace ~ncl in due course ~e ~ill h3ve to taL~ 3bau: how ~~a~ is :o ce !i.."lar.:::ecl ar.:! ho\0 it i3 tc be ra.ise.j, User.::: .o1 :.a:-:c· o::' E=a'f ::on:..r3.c~ for a sigr.i.fieant por':.l.Cn of the o:.:::.?:.:.t - wi:..h Z:\.::0 or ·,.;i:.:-. :'L".y:.cdy .;ls.:. 3784

:lovet:!:ler JO, 1979 !n !ace, ~~e Bay d'Espoir one had been ~n place, as :he ~niseer will recall, through ~~e ADB esaen~ially, ~e S20 million eha~ ADB pu~ in bu~ ~~ is ano~her story. :!?... .... • 2A.o."tP.Y: :{? •• S?E.A!.Z?..: (:-lr.

Si=.ms) :1.as <:..1-e ::r..:.esti'O:-.? .: ;;!i.d not ;.rr:.:.: ~e .J.C.ver::.ise::.ent, ~inis~er's question ~o ;:.ve ~~ some ~i~ar.ce. ~e :an ~3!k as well J..bout :.he 1975 start on ::.he pr::lJec~, but <:.':.!!.::. is mct.1er seo:o:::. ! would as~ about tais; t.'te =inister ~~~ indi~a:e~ ~ ~ t:1ae :~e i:.:i::.;-i.-:.::; i:-.:o :._l;.e g::id, on to se::ea:n, of the ~uskrae ~n:oject. ··•ill p:-o·.t:..:.e us t."l.ree or !..Jur years - ~'ta e ..:..!.nJ. o: tir..e frame, ::.ot: ten; !. <:. is no~ one, it ::r.ayl;;-..e e·.;o, t:."l.r'ile, :our, or fi•:e dependl.ng on ::.h.e increase ur.cont:cll4bl~ and q~ite possibly unpredictaZle; one ~us~ ~~e asst.l!:lpt.ions a::.d go from :."le:e:. .So we are loo;.;.ing at en:-=e or !our :tears ciuri.ng '"'hi.ch the t.,.e.r:na~ pla.-:.~s will !Je down. .:U,d a:. the end of t.:."l.e t.~:ee or !our i"ea:s, !.! ! ur.derstood t.!'.e ::;.i:lis::.e:::, ':.he t.'le==:.!!.l pla.n~ will aqa.in be called '.lpon, not !or l::ac.k '..!? powe: ):)(.tt_ for reg-...lar inser-::!.on in t."le ;riC, ?CSS!.bly, as peaking pc·.,.~= - 3785

:mvember 30, 1979 ;:._~ - 1 !1?.. ?DS~RTS: hyd.."'' developmenu are we lookinq at? coes t..~a.t. speci.!ical.:O:t !:il!ar. - :1..,.. BAP.PS: :·:?.. ?DSZ.:tTS: The Gull Isla:-.d. Xi.::Cle C.'lu:.-c.'lill as opposed. to o:..'-1~ t;ppe:- Cl.urO.ill a.-.:: :.'"le :.Owe:­ Clu.rci'ti.ll. C,:,uld t:..1.e ::ni=Useer also ~ll us what::ler t..1.e:e is J,..,.~.::-· incii::ation at. t..'lis s':.aqe - ar.e : :-ea.!.i::e :Ois :igures a:e ~o:. a:. :.:-• .!.s seage !ixed.

I asst!!t'lli!, by o;.he way, t.hae :epo:-:. w1.ll :.e pUZJ...:.c, ·.:.:.11 i1:. not., when t:.."le ::.Owe: C\urci:.ill co::es i.n7 :-rn.. 3AF..F.'!: Ve~f quickly, Z would assU-~ sc. :-' .. ':!.. ?J:3E?.'!S: I would no;e sc .:::ecause i:. is ~ 4~·.:" doe-.:mene.

Could. the :ni."1is:er :.ell us lofhet: . .'"ler ne ;,as a.ny i::.dica:..:.cn of t:.:4e kind o! pdee rant;e we ue looking at. ~ h.a•te t..1.ae :..0\·•e: .:;.·..:.rc.-:.:..l!. power, t.'le Muskrat power, :!eli•>~eree :are to :..1.e rsland a.~C. :ie!i·:e:e·i ':.0 homes and businesses t..1.::-ouq~ou:. t.'"le LslanC: ~Jeney-~Jo ~ls. ~lore :.'la.1. t.."la:.. e."l.ae "fill ob·1iously have been resea.rchec! :..1.orou<;:tly by e.':.a:. :i:.e, by r.ex~ year, as a matter o! !ace.

T":1ere are ot:."ters :..'lat. relaee :.o til.e t.::;;er C".urc..~ill project, t.'le so ... c:a.lled ~bse.ick cievelop::-.ent, ?~-::e..:.ng in a.-. adc!itional wtit. in .::onnection wit..l>t the Upper Churc:."till develo;::ment. !:.'"lat. is now in place. But., :tr.

Speaker, by :.."tat time :Lt. is our ;cver:t::'.f!n:'s belie! a.'td what. we will be !ighting for is t.hat ~y t:.hat ti.c.e '""e ..-ill have as~lished, if nee earlier, ..-e ~il1 have eseablis~ed our er.~:le~e~: to taite oack recall power !roo r..".e Upper Churchill ?reject as we n~~·:! .:.:., when we :teed it !or use nerg i~ !:.'lis ?:"C"Iince. :ha:. is ·.-ny :..'tis .:='.!:: case is now ongoing. That. is ·./::.y '"'e have a :ask fo:-:::e now '"'o:=ki.r:; ::; see :..: 1.:. ca.• :::le =.one :x~re qll.l.c.'dy e."l.an ti:.e ?roba!:::ly five :rea:s 1.:. .... u:;. t.:ika f:: e.'le .::our": case :o '::ll! conci.uCeci.

E!ue in any event, in !ive years :.:.=:e, .:.: 3786

November 30 ,l979 !1R.BA!'.P.i': of t.~e Supreme Cot:rt: of Canada b:r· ::.1-:ae. t.iJr.e •..rhich in :ny belief .,...ill estatlish <:.'1.ae ~'li:o ?rovir.ce is entitled to take =ack eoo megawatts wie..,out. doubt. MR.NEA:Y: We are. I agree we are. Mr.Speaker, could somebody brine; a p~er bag over and shove it. over :1-.e h.on. :r.emter's h~ad? !m.S:i'~AK!R: (S!...-:ns) MR. BARRY: OrCer,p!.ease ~ He has gotten All warmed up with !1r. Hie.."lael Harris t."te:~ last night. He has gotten Ul war.:ted t:~ with ~..ic.~ael Ha.."'ris and he has been on a !ligh ever since and he has not eeme down o!! it. !«ow, hold on.

I will ag::-ee wi<:..'1. you. For once I ...,.ill aqree wi:.."t you. The hen. oe.."'lber is =ighe,we are en!:.itled •~ to ~'1.e recall o! power froa ~,e ~pper ~urchill. 7he problem is,howeve:. !..'1.a:'::. ~s i3 :tot wit:hout legal doubt or P.J."''.es:o::ainty i.:t ::.,_at it would not :e safe !or us to go co the t;;er c~urc.'1.ill, b~ld a t:ansmission line and expect to !i."''.u.ce a e.:ans:nission line on e..'1.e expec<:aC.:.on c! brinc:;i."l.g bac.'< ~"?per C!'l.u=ch.ill ~ewe= ...,i:.::. e..~e threat of leqal ~eticn by 0:..'1.2 province of Quebec hanqing over ~~e project. 3787 •

November 30, 1979 Tape No. 1506 :..":.e reason :or d'te .:our: case:, !1r. Spea.ke:, tlut: in five years t.ime ':...~ Supreme :our': of C.uuda will hav1 established t...ltis Provin.ce's entitlement without:. d.oub~, .,..it..":. no ~- 1 uncertainey, eo che power of t...":.e Upper Churchill River. ~'le.."'l. will we have surplus capacit.y, :..1-ten '.o'ill '"'e have :..1-te !:-eeC.om eo grow :."'lat:. we :teede:C, ~ar. we will have the energy that will make :..1is Province a grand and wonderful place to live in. Thank you, ~~. Speaker. SOME: EON. !"E!m'ERS: Hear, hear! M..r<..

SPEAKER (Simms l : A final supplement:a~J, :.."'le ~on. member for ~~e St:ai': o~ aelle !sle, followed by the hon. me~~er :or taPoil~. :allowed by :he hon. gent.le~ for Grar~ Bank. ~~- ROBER~S: The hon. gent:.leman opposit.e is not ~1-te only high one here ~:day. He has otviously lost :ouch wi:.."'l real~tY~ if he is predicating the Province's power policy on t..."'le outcome of a court act!.on, ·Jhich ! think he would be ~"te very :!irst ':O say - That is anoeher ~pt:.ion.

MR. ?.OBERTS: ~ell,~"te hen. gentleman 3ays i~ is ano~"er option; ! ~an,i~ is ano~"'ler ~p':ion lL~e ~"te SlOO ~illion tha~ was wa.st.ed :,y t.."le ::u.nist:.e::- and t:y the ?re:ruer and :,y :.i.eir colleagues back in 1975 - M.."ll. Si'SAKZ?.: Order, ?lease! MR. ROBERTS: - and it: is still :.i.ere, cost.i~g us SlS ~llion a year ~n interest. M..,q,.. SPEAKER {Simms l: Order, please~ SOME HON'. :!EMBERS : Oh, oh! :-ffi.. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, ie is ~o ~~re - MR.

S?EAKER. (SL'!'!!nS l : Order, please: Order, please: If t..i.e hen. member has a supple~e~tary question to ask 1 I would direct hi~ ~ ask :.i.e quest~on ?lease. SOME HON. ~!BEllS: Ch, ch: 3788

November 3D, 1979 Tape ::o. 1506 !1..'0.. 3.0SERT5: it: in ~"le same way u t.."te m..i.nist.e::- answe:ed it. a . .''!.d ! :.Cncw t.."lat: You= Honour will be t.he ve~f first to agree t.."lat. L~ asking t..~e question I am allowed exaet:ly t..~e same latitude as t..~e hon. gentleman in answer~ng it. Because a.s tour Honou= :ulad. ':..'le ot.b.er d~y, the answers must. be brief and t..~e questions must be e~ally brief. T~£ emphasis ~ere, I ~o~euld say, lour Honou=, is on :..1.e word eq<.lal..

New ~e are saying ~he minister did not answer the question. ! ask hiz again,~ecause it is obvious ~~at ~"le ~nister :oes ~ot. want co answer t.."le quesc~on. Could ie t.all us- t.."le ?ramie: is Oig on speeches.· tie will calk. abcuc "=.."'.e st. A!.ba.::..'s speech,t.oo. ·•e have a t3pe of :..>tat. It. is a good speech. A.."l HCN. !-'~MSE!l: Co nne ?..i ver - S0.'1E SCN. :iEMBE.":tS: He a:, hear! HR. ROBERTS: r must. say !±ey .are all :;e~ today.

They :urned around 1100 voces and i-; is :..~e gdat.asc vic:-:o:-1 s~~ce Jo~~ Cabot. ~b~.e does :..~ac pu~ curning out ~300 voeas :~ .5:. !A.ary'3 The Capes, whic:t .,..as obviously t:he gr.aacast: • .. ri::-:ory ;;i:.ce the ~orsemen discovered ~ewfouncll~~d, SOO years ~e~ore: Is ~~ac :he hon. - :1..:!1.. R:BE..":tTS: Is tha:. :he - MR. ?.CBE?..':'5: ! was as~ng ~"le mir.ist.er - or::.er, please! !s ~"lae ehe hon. me~~er's quest.io~? Hear, hear: MR. S?EAKE?.: !f not, I would ;irect ~~e hen. m~~er -:o ask it:. MR. ?.OBE:?.TS : Mr.

Speaker, ~"'.e :t'.!est:ion. ~o repeac again for ~'1e ))ene!ic o:: t:::.e m.inister is - - . ' Where is ~"'.e me~er :or 5t. :1ary's The Capes (~r. =ancoc~l. 3789

November JO, l979 Tape ~o. lS06 NM - J :~. RIJSE?-TS: l'hill member for St.: Mary' 3 - 'tha Capes (Mr. Eia."l.c::~ck}, .Sir, .i.3 serJir:.g the L"l.terest: of his constit:uenes in a ?roper way. SOME: HON. ~.EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPE:AKER (Simms l : Order, please! MR. aDSERTS: Mr. Speaker, if hen. genclemen opposit.e, Sir, can care t.o restrain their enthusiasm briefly ,let. :ne again ask ~he :ni."Uscer if b.e •Nill indicace to u.s what itind of cosc estimates or ;?rice eseimat:es ~e =an expect: t:o see with respect: to the power. He says he forgot L"l. his • !1-tt. B.ARP.Y: AN EOH. ME!<i.BE?.: MR.

ROBE.?:!S : Got. carrled away. Car::-ied away. • exposi~ion of his lack of ~nowladge of ~~e legal stat.e and his weak defence 3790

November JO, 1979 Tape 1507 ?K - ... :u-. Rcbe:::~s: let him now answer ~~~ queseion as best he can, ar~ lee us see exac~ly where we s~nd with respee~ to the price of power. W.. S?.EA..t<E:R (SI_.:A.MS) : MR- i3AP-~Y: '!;he hon. :-ti.nister of !{ines ~d Energy. Okay, Mr. Speake:, jus~ to keep this ~~ praspective,at ~he ~resent time to produce, and ~~is is before cost increases ~~t we unde:s~~ are ~ominq, to ?reduce alec~icit'l !=om burning Sunke: C, forgettL~g abOut the cost of ~uilding the ther:al ?lan~ !rut just for the cos': of the fuel, ?".:.u are tlllki."lg scmethi.::.; i..'1. excess o! t~ty-five =ils.

This ~s just - You :nea.n t..,e oil element of t..'l~ ::est. The oil element. .:ust t.o -;ee the proper And this is obviously - '"'e have :W.d ."'.r. Sc~~esinger, the former a.s. E.'1ergy -~~is~er,3peak in terms of t~e pr~ce o: oil going from ~,e t~en~y-odd to the forty-odd cio!~a:s a oarrel :eior~ the erA of ~,e l980s. He •as talking abOut mid-l980s as a ma~~e: of fact, ':' ~~n.k. see a pr!ce of a barrel of oil. go as much as ~60 a barrel. idaa wha~ t!:e ::r:.ce of ol..l is goi:':g to be. !4.?.. 3A.t-"".?.Y: Island indicated - .'!R. ?.OS:O:R':'S: MR. aA?.RY: MR. !IDBERTS: So this is just to keep the pres;e~tive.

Is that the five year old one? !?ardon? Wel~ t:.he me:nbe: says - ""· 3o\ZB.Y: The one five years ago. Some updac~•g that bas been done on t:h4t since indicates, and this !..;: before ·.re h.ad these !l1Cre precise figures which a.re being prepared. new, i::.dicates that Gull Island ?ewe: deliv~o:!d to the !sland W'Ould be something in excess ot th.ir'ty :nils. 3791

November 30, 1979 Tape 1507 ?K - 2 MR. ROBERTS: And then the wheeling charges across e..:,.e Island. 1>'ould. have be added to t!'..at as well., •...auld. t.l:ey? JA.R. aA..Ut: John's. :.a. ROBERTS: .s t oee: take. t1o, no. That is delivered to 5t.

Okay, it is just not feQ. in i~ on incerconnection : would have to say at c..'ti.s: seage a range of llllywhe.re from thirtt· to fortY :nils until we get these precise figures, precise figu:es i~ the early t980s. ~uskrat talls,it was indicated at that time ,could be as :::uch as ':.en :n.i.ls per ~ilowa:.t how: :nore ':...'-l.an :iull. !~land. so Lf :ou are :alki.ng about Gull Island thirty to forty 1 you are talking about XUskrat Palls forty to fi!ty. There were concer~s about Cad soil ~onditicns at the ~ite of ehat projected develo9men:.. we have i."ldicat:.e that the soil i_s noc·as bad as was !ear.<!d.

So tha. t. could improve t:...":.e ~rice of /<l:usk=at:. F:1lls power del..i.vered. 3ut basically you are tal~~q ot i.i the ~~i:~ies !or Gull Island, in the fort~es =or ~s.ltrat:. F3.lls delivered -:o ':.he r:sland of Ne•Jfcur.dlar.d, deli·Iered to se. Jor.n's. :!?... 52SAKE:.R (S!..'1.'-1S} : A ~ew questl.on,ehe hen. member :o= LaPoJ.le. X:. Speaker, I would like to d~ec-: a qu.est.icn to ?nu:tier LOugheed. I would l.Ue to ask the hen. ;ent.!.en:an, Sir, i.f L~ fact there is a problem in the United States 3792

November JO , 1973 Tape l3+J9 E:C - l .:03 .• !JE:.?.Y: because :."te ::e:port:.a t..1.a': we are gett:.ing are con!u.sinq a."'ld con!lic-:i:.g. ti'! have one ;roui? saying :."tere is no problem, t.'le:e is a. !l:igh::: : ..... c'J:'3 1 anc! ·,.,e ~ave Mr. 'tiells, :."'I.e ?resiC.ent of :.he Fish Trades Association, saying t:.."ta::: t.''lere is a proClem.. Would ':he l"".on. gentlel:I'Wl tell us ju.s: exact:..!.y wh.at. t..'1e situation is7 ! am ask.:.ng :.'le ?:emie:, !ir. .Speaker. !-JR. SPEA..'-£R: (Si:J:~

S) A supplementa...""'/, ':..'1e hon. ':..'le mett".be.: for r.a?oile. MR. SEA?X: Does t..."le hen. the P.:emie: inter.cl to answer :.he ;,'Ues<:ion? Not i.f you d.o not:. ask .:.:: ?tOperly. en, oh ~ :1r.

Speaker, r -..ould lJ.ke to .asK. ':..":.e hon. t:.'le Premier, Sir, if t:.."le gover:-.ment has q.:.•ren any :.hough:. to ge:.t..:...":l.g !:.'"'leir o·....-n coa:pa.ny, Fishery ProductS, t.o rove :..'leir operae.:.on ou: :J! t."te ~ted Seates where :..'ley have furt..~er processing, where t.."tey have a ;i; oper aeion, and. :rove i:: co :;e•..,.!ounciland., ""here it should ::e ,!:~r fur-:."ter processing-? :nsteed. of t.":.e t.a.x?ayers ?Utti:t; ::cney in 'to this coc:pa:ty :::: sat: '..!? an ope.:aeion Cown in the ::ni ted S ta::es :!or fo.L.-~1.er p:ocessi::.g, '..lr'.Y no-:. :eve i:. !:;ack t.o New foundlar.d and t:.."len l..;)Ok for ::tew :narke:.s :!o: of Fisht~r'/ ?rod.uces about a week and a half ago, and wi e."l Mr.

Wells a.."'l.ri Ml:'.be:s of t.."'l.e Fisheries .:.Ssocia::.:.on of :iewfour.dla.nd a.boue :..'le ·.;nole :;,uestior. of :narke:.s in :..'le Uni:.ed. s:.aees. :tu::cer !:'..lo, '!he wnole q:...:es:ion of <::a.xpaye=s n~ fund.L"lg Fishery ?roduets, ! do not :.."link i:. is a eou.l.ly aec:t:.rate st.aeemen:.. !n t.~e past, Fishe:y P:odu:::<=s was given qua.rant:eed loans .t."'l:!. so en by the Governr:"tent of Newfound.lar.d.

I do not t."link t.."ley a:e :.cday. r :..'"link t.'ley follow along i:t :..'1e same prog::-~s as :il.l tb.e ot:..'1er !ish ::o~a.·u.as. :'hir:'!ly, ! '"'i!.l ::Je :neeti..1.g ;tqai:t wi:.."l F!.she::Y ?::e:::!uet.s l..'1d wit..'l :.Z..e u."lion and .,..it.'l ot..'le!' people L"lvol•ted i:t :..'le fishing indust.="J to C.iscuss not. only what:. ':-"I.e hen. t~e.:-.ber !or t..a.Poile jus-; :r.entioned, but ~"1.e whole quest.ion of ~~ke:.s in :..~a ~nleed States over t..~e nexo:. nur.~er o! years. 3793

~.Jove:r.Cer 30, 1979 Tape 1508 ::c - 2 A S'-'?Plement:.a::'J, Mr. 5?aaiter. ;. final. supplernent:.arJ, t:.."le hon. :.tle :r.er..ber for !:.Uoile ,follo...,eci l.y t:.h.e t:.•;.e hen. :..'te :na:.ber !or Grar.d aank. !t.R. :-t"Erl...!tY: whet.h.er or not: tl'l.e Newfo~;ndland Goo..rernment u taki."l.g o:.';.e ir.i:.iat:.ive in fil"l.di.'1q ne"W !M:ket:.s for Newfou.-,:dJ.a..."l.ci !ish 1.n Eu:ope ar.C. in ot..'te: places so <:...,at:. we will ~ot be put:.~"lg all our eggs in one basket:. and sending :..'te :rost. of our !lsh :.o <:.lte Cnited .:iu.t:.es?

What:. s:eps nave ~"l.e gover.nent. taken to find new ma.:kats for our fish? MR. S?EA.C?.: The hon. <:...,e Pr2mier. Xr .. Speake: 1 t.."'.e ~~ew:ou.'idla."l.d Goverrunent:. are al'<~ays :.a.idng initia.t:.i•-tes, bo:.."l in ':...,e :.:.sner; a..".:i t.."te forese:y, 'the !tinist:.er of L.a.ncis a.nd Forest:.S (:-tr •. ~,~.organ) JUSt ?rice and go:. a fam:ast.:.:: ag::eemen:. for :he saW'::'..i.l! operat:.ers of :.1.e Province. Jus: i.n <:.'te last. c:oupla of d.ays, :..1.e :.e:;n.:ty :u.niseer of :n.sheries, :1::'.

Slade 1 ·,..as L"l Spain - about: eleven .iays ago - :a..:...i:-.g -:he initiative !or ope;n.ing up new ma:ke-:s in Spai.!'l.. ;.ie have been ulid::.g The ini:.iat..::.ves we are t.a.kir:g a..re jl.'St: pnenorr.ena..:. a.'1d r ask :he hor •. me~:r.ber i!' a.."'.'J day ha "Wi.3.i1es ~ :.ave :.1.5 .!.is: <:.'1e nU:::Oer of i!'l.i-:.ia.:ives we :.a.ke daily, '••e ""ill be only eco glad eo present. e.."le h.on. t:'.e:r.:::e:1 s ques-:icn a.n:i t.."le answers u:) it :.o t.."le hen. no use. I ""ill o~ askL"'.g some ~r~ ques:ions about: it.. .3794

~~ove:r.Cer 30, 1979 ,..~ape :;o. lS09 i.J"h - l :1.? .. .:iPEA.t:ER {SD-!:·!5): The hen. me~~er for Grand 3~~~. MP.. t • Ti:O 1-:S : .'!r. Speaker, again .:.n e.::e absence of t..>e !'!.inist.er of JU.it.ice {Mr. Vttenhei.!::.e.r}, t would lii<e co c.irect a quesuon ~ t:..,_e Presicl.ent of c.he Co ...:neil (:-tr. !-'.arsha.ll).

Some time olgo the Hir-iseer of Justice ,speaking t.o t...'le Canaclia.n Sar As.aoci.lt.J.cn o! :~ewfoundland,st.at.ed t."lat hls dep~:r.ent was actively involveC i:l a.iscussions . .,itb. t.."le Feder:tl Goverr.:::ent. to set up a separate judicial ~strict in ~raCer. could t~e Fresident of ~~e counc~l :el~ ~e now how this act of discussions are proqrCi:~;&ing and ... he:;. we can ~xFect t.o see a separat.e juCic~al d.!.sc.rict for ~abrader, ;rcvi~ng a separate district court judge !or Labrador. '!.'1e hen.

F:es:.cent of e.e Coc.r.cil. }!: • Speaker. as the ~en. ::-.etl::er i~ aware, 1:.1.ere is already a 3ill en t."o.:: Orde:: raper to give effec-: to e;.,is as Ear as t..::e Provincial GoveQ:"l'.ent is eonce!"":"leci to creat:.t:: loca::ed i..."'l. i.a.bu.sh.

So ..... e haw ta.ke.'"l an initiat.ive along ~'":ose lines ioi~ l~ve Zeen talking with t:.e Federal Gcve~~rent a.Cout i::.. ;.iter t~e 3ill is passeci we have ;rea: e~ect.aticns of oe~n; ~l~ t.o ~ave t.1.e Federal Go,.-e:n::-.ent i:.pleoent. t.!"l.e necessary ste;s in orc!er ::.o hav<:! t.'lis judge Ul? t..'":.ere l.ecause . ..,e are ·.;e.rl• ·.-ery an.x..:.ous, t.":.is gove::n.::ent is ?ar-ic'.l.larly ar..xious aLout. its ::elacor.shifS wit . .'1 L.C!.n.C:cr, fr-om. t.he l:.ast. coa~t. to :..1.e ·~es<:e:n pare. of t.'-le ?ro,.·ince ,as i.e has aJ...read'l i."'l.dicat.ed i:::y it..:> representations sine::! it has taken over t..'le ;overr.:ne:-.t a.'"l.C. it is a.lre.ady inc!icat.ed when it held a cabinet eteet!.ng for the first time up in LabraUor just a lit.t.le whi1~ ago.

Order, please! 'rhe ti:r-e for V::al Questions has ex?ired. 3795

1iover.i..::er 30, l9 79 Tape !ic. 1509 Dh - 2 The non. Hinizt.er of E"i!U.!'tce. on eo::orro-* ask leave to introduce a 3ill entit.bd, "An dct To A.tr.end the t.ocal ;..u~"l.oritj' Guarantee Act, 195 7, (:-to. 2} ". xr. Speaker, : give no~ce r w~ll en eomorrcw ask leave to resol•,;e t.he neuse i ..

"lt.o " Cor.:mi::";Se of t.:.s ~1-.oli :.o consiC.e:: ::e::t:.ain ::esolucions ~ :elation :o ::.."1e aC.va:.c.:.ng or guaranteeing of ce~ai~ loans. _::.tH .• SP~;t: and ~~viron=ene. :·lRS • :;T,·:F.COK: 1'he hen. :·tir.ister o: c:mstur.e:- .-. .:::.urs l:'A!mber !c r t.a.Foila asked :re ;.ues~cns -regarding disposals si:.:u !or oily wa.;;.~te eollect.ed an~ 1' guess : :niSt,!.~C:erstcoc. :..'"',e qcescion ~eca.t:.Se I gave hi:n informaucn on ::.;."le oil/ wa:>:te colh:c:.~d Cu:inq ~1e S~e= of t.he c.:.ls t:..'-:at wasneC:. uhore !rem :.he ::urd.ista.."'l.. r t..'l.:.M :..'1e in!o:r.a- <:.~on ne .:.s reques:..:..ng l.S :.ne sl.o:es :."tat:. · .. e nave desig:ta.~eC. t:o daal · .. .:.~• 3796

NOVemb~ 30, 1979 tape 1510 ?K - 1. future. And I would l~ke to give him ~~e following L~for=aeion; Our proqr.urme is consistent with acti•tity in !.he other three AU antic Provinces of car.acla' s Arctic coastline. .\nd there has !::een a e.enta t.ive selection to d.at.e of six Island Uld t..":ree !.abrader sices. Anticipat.ed too Eastern Avalon and 3u:in ?en~4sula , fur~er tentative selections are necessary.

Stress selec~~ons today are for f~~her st~dy only and the depar':::!.ent !-.as ::ut. yet. :nacie contact to acqu1.re land t.it.les or reserves. cur de!?art::~ent :nay yet refu:.e ~he use of any or all of t..l-:.ese sit.es for ::his ?urpose should the results cf hydro geogologic~l assess:e~ts of soil, types and grour~ water, and such cr.aracteristics be unfavourable. :Iow, in !...l.bradcr '!he s:i.::es are of a :!.i.f!erent scale due :.o ant.ic:ipat.ed. volu:ne oi recover'l of a.ny spill.

And one . .,as selee~ad in "abush, Labrador Ci~y. but. er~~ ~~:e selec~ed has ~ow b~en re.f:.1sed clue eo Spring r'l!Ilof! and the water table problem, ar.d a:1 al:ernae.e site •ill nave to be consiCered L~ l3BO. !n Churchill Falls a smal~ si:a is being agreed on, and is L~ ccn~ingeney plans. In Goose Say-Happy I./alley, !ior~, ;:est:. River federal ar.ci -: ... a ki.l.omeeers :'rom Qt.t:er C:aek have be12:n :.ane.ae.ively selec:eci. five boUl".dary survey::~ that. have been ccmplet.ed on 1;..'le following sites, a::.

Oa.niel' s Harbour, a nine hectare si::.e, eight k.:..lomeeers ~lo:::h of t..1.e to;.m a.tl.d L"l cut-over area a.;?;:::ox;wna::.ely five iu.!.ome't.ers East of t..~e ~crt:.he::n 2~"li:.sula Highway on forest access :cads. There is cne at aowley, a nir~e heccare site !iorth of the Trans~canada High~y, eight. ~ilcmeters West of town access road, and ~;proximately four kilometers on a side road. At Soul:., 3roo~, Green Bay, a nL"le hect.are site behind and adjacent to e."·d.stL"lg municipal garbage dumpi~g site. At Browr.'s Arm, sa~ci Cove, site behL~ and adjacent. to exis~L~g cccmuni:y was:e l~r4 fill. 3797

sovember 30, l979 Tape No. 1510 NM - 2 MRS. NE',..1iOOK: de Clarenville a nine hec~re si~e behir4 and adjacent eo existing community waste land !ill. At Clarenville a nine hec~e site adjacent to existing =unicipal wasee disposal si:e. Ar~ at Coal Brook a nine t~ ~en hec~are site approximately t:hree :<.ilometers East of t.tJ.e TrJ.ns-Olnada Hi;'J::.wa:; c::n a forest access :-c.sd, approx.i.mately ~h::ee k.ilomecers Nort:..."l of Scu<;.."'.

The latter was four.d .!lS a. contingency measure, !allowing the discovery of some ;;ur::!ista."l oil on the Sou't:.h...,·es~ Coast of :.he ?::-evince,. and it:. is :lot as advar.ced. as the otho:r rsla....C. sit:.es. There is sure eo :e similar ac:iviey 3fter the fact:. eo f~~ additional sites closer eo

an act:.ual spill :lean-up site. Other ~"'.an field visits ~y a =o-orciL"lat~ng staff ::nem.ber there t-.as not been any act:.iYity on any 3i":.e fo:- :..'"le la.se ~en mon t.hs or so. The n~~t:. seeps are ~'"le hydro ;eogolical assessmen~s. land ac~~isit:ions and pr~para~ion of sie.a develc~ents ar~ use plans for ~urnover in er.e event of an ~ergency 3pill. And r would like to say that of si~es selected., Lf :.here is some a.civerse public reac~ion there ~ill be some sort of public relations :oneac~ to fully explai.:1 t.o -:.he people who .are compla!.."'ling about ~ ... e intent ar.d t.he procedures.

To date, and despite t~~de:ing ir. newspapers for su_~eys of oily waste sites such as -:.his. ?ubl.ic react.icn has been received from only one site, and this is ~~e one at Brown's And it has been based on suspJ.Cl.on and poor infor:nation, like. they were ca:eful of vapours and explos1.ons and fires and smoke et:. Consideration is being given to !utu:e site uses. !-lova Scot:.ia anci Ne~oundlar..d selec-:.ion criteria are available en request, i.f you 'NOulci like to have t.hat:. And, hopefully, neither sit:e may ever have eo b~ used from ~he view po~"'lt. of coastline a!!ec~s due eo ~;ill arA clean-u?

COS't.S. 3798

~ovembe: 30, 1?79 Tape 1510 PK - 3 Does this Me!ln t..'"ta t: ~!ova Scotia can dump or use t:.."tese? Pardon? 3799

Uove:nboer JO ,1979 Tape ~ro. lSll A.H-l Does :.;.at mean ~leva Scotia o::ar. C.t:lT.p, ean use <;.."lese Ct.=ps here in Newfoundland? Oh, no. sites. Anc! as far as I know, I have been advised t."lat these sites are not locaced in designated berry picking areas. !om. a-~: .!iP.S ~tn.'HCCK: { Inaudi..!: le) Yes. Indeed yes • On :ot:.on t.."lat t.."le House reso!.ve itself L~to a Committee of t.."le ~bole, on Bill $8, ~. Speaker ;eft ~~e C"lair. :u':t .. C!-:A!P.!!A!l: {9airdl !I.R. POBERTS: Crder,please!

Ycur Honou=, vhen we adjourned at S:JO p.m. yesterday t..1e ~nister had :esponded to a ~atte= which I had rai3ed.~o recapi:ulate ~"le =attar very :riefly I had a;aL~ =~seC .an objection wi:.."l respec-t: to a.'l a:.e.~dr.".ent that '"as :mC:e .!.nto law l::· t.'le ?.ouse :.'":.ree :Jr four years a;-o er.bcdJi!lS" a ::oliCi' '.Jhic..":. .! !ind offar.sive and the policy is t.."lis, wt:.e:e a ~u...,cil.lor is d.is::tisseC.. by t!1e :i::.ister or by t..'1e CabL'"'.et - I a:n not sure '.tho has !.he po...,er o!

C...t.:i:issa.l., it. lS i.:relevar..t, it is a ;:olitical pew a: a.nC it res"t.S e!:..her wi~'1 t..\;e a::.d whera :.'"tat happens t..i.e :.inist.er t:ta¥ dis;:.iss a councillor ::):" :::.or:: than one councillor a,..,d i-.e is t..~en pro:t.ibi teC, e..". a:: cot.:..'"lc.i l.:.or is pro!'li!:i ~::!, !:om !"'.!.'"lning for l. p~riod , ! =~ lieve, of :wo ~·ea=z. I e..".i~ic. t..'"tat i$ specified L'"l t.i.e act. Yes it is~

Section 519. M!t.?.CBE?!'S:

Section 519 =1 friend fror. Grand San .. 1.:. (Mr.Th~~} tells ~e. The policy, I would suggest, is ve:-1 of!ensive. r could a.rque .agains"t. t.'"te Ca!linet hav-ing t.i.e pcwer <:.o dis::-J.ss but t..'1a:. is a long accepted ?roceCure L'l Ne...,foundla.'"ld ~.,d Labrador a.'"ld !or all ! k."'l.OW a eou:pa:a!:le pow!!!.:: :nay exist ir. ct.i.er p-::ovinces :lO at: t..i.is stag~ I ao ~ot objec~'"lg to t..i.at. T~ae is not a depar:ure.

Su::. t..".e ot..~er =a-:.ter , I t..i.i..'1k, ::eally cught to be reconsi::!ered. trow I do not intenC <:.o have a lcng drawn out Cetate en it ~.,c I would suggest. to t..".e :niniste.r t..i.at it is not. a partisan matter. : do not. t.'"tir..k it ma<:.'te.rs 38')0

November 30, l9i9, Tape lSll, Page 2 -- apb ~-'=t· ROBERTS: whe~~er one is a tiberal or a Tory, when it comes to ~;is kind of queseion i: is not a matter of philosophical approach or of attitudes or of beliefs or of political credos, it is sii:~ply a matte:- of aclminis~atiw practice and of •.rha:: is right and proper.

I would suggest <:o t.l<te minister t.."lat i!l ef!ec-:. what happens, what happens when t:.his amendment is used, i,:; tha: a person is deprived of office ~~d is t.~en sentenced to a penalty, t,.;e penaley being t..~e loss of a portion of his rights as a citizen, tr~t portion of his rights •Jhich. allows any individual to ?Ut fort.h his name as a candidate for elec!ion and to stand for elec~on. He is sentenced eo that wi~~out ever having a hearing, wit.."lout ever being charged wicll anything, I ::tight add.

The minister has the power, or '!.."le ca.bine::.- t:he powe:: to Cismiss :ices not require a hearing. !n t..i.at sense it:. is a denial of national justice and it is probably open :.o a e~r-.iorari - ~ell, it would noe be a ~ror-ibition - :o a certiorari application. ! do ~ot knew ~! ~~at has ever been tested in ou: cour~s l:lut it 'MOuld probably l::le open to !1 certionri appLi.cat.!.on but e•.ren i! it is ~ot, it certainly does not requi=e ~ hearing. :t is cer~inly a :ienia.l in that sense :;,£ the national justice a.."1d the ::tinister =:i.."l. '!..":.en go be~ond ~~ae and not simply deprive ~~e ~~ of the office, ~ut he deprives ru.:n of his oppor:~"lity to vindicate hi:r..sel£. ~low ~1e::e i.;; no court: in t.."l.is land that can impose a penal~/ on a cit~.:en until t.,at citizen is convicted o£ a c::ime or an offence 3801

!tovember 30, H79 ;:c - 1 3S spec~!ied in an ac~. ~~d ~~e~e iz no cour~ ~~&~ ean convic~ a c~ti:en of an offence wi~~ou~ a ~ea:ing. A.1.d yet :le:e is a clear ins ::.ance wn.ere t.."le goverru::tenc has t.a.<.en on to ti'l.emselves a ?OWer to pu."'lia:h a citizen. Md I would suggest, Mr. C."lair.nan, t.'lat d.eprit.r-nc; a. ::a."l or a .,...owa.n o! t.~e riqhe to n:.n fo~ pt.J.blic office is a. punisl'u:'w!nt. '!!\ere are t.."lose who say that being ele:ted is a .;:uni.shmen~. I:. is only :.."lose who have been elec-ted t.'lae m.a.incain that. : e.~i:-..i< i:. is unfai: and r ~'link it. is wrong.

The mini3ter, omen he spoke yes:.erl!.sf a!~rnoon, said t.":.at. - as I get it, as ': .. tle only justi!ieation he coul:i put. !or-., arC - h.e said, 'took, wh~'t. happe.."'.s i!' a :ou."lc:il does so~ee~•.:.r.g t.'la:. is wildly popular but '"'ilC.lJ i:::;roper' - and I. e."lir.k t..'la::: is a !air su::u::art o! t.'te :nin.is-:.er's position. He said, '':'hey :u.gnt :0 so:r.e:.."ling wi.!.dly i~roper and t.~en we di.smiss them because t.:tey have act.eci in an i:nprope~ fashion and because it is wilcily popular. :..'1ey . .,.ill a.ll ~e re-elected.

Well, nO'ool, ":...'lat may or ':lAY no::: he a liJ.;ely or a poss.:.Zle scenario. :;: do not. t:.."\ink it is ?QSSi.ble because, o:! course, C.'le Cabinet it. is certainly possible :."\at. a ccuncil may do socet.'":.in~ ':.."lat. :.s 'JU.:il:t i:ap::oper and lllso wildly popular- e."\at. is quite poss~le. Set.

I. woulci suggest. t:..":.at t:..~e ::1l.•"'.ist:er has ::urny ecr.t.:ol.s in addition eo :.1.at.~ ::: a. cou."'lcil Cces somet:U.."'.g \ol'ildly i!:!proper, i ':. :nay ,.,.ell be i~p::cpr.:Oate :o d.is:tiss ~1e cou."''.cil, l::lut t.1.e :ti.r.is eer can t."'.en remedy t..1.e wildly l.::prc?e r a.c-: l::ly any one of a. nUl!lber cf j?Owers vestee! in :lim by :..'1is leqislat.ion. I think he would aqree wi.e."\ that.. The :ninis<::.er sha.ltes :tis head.

The =inister has cont.rols over ~ur~cipali~es, cont:ols beyond conerols, and if he does not have adequate controls. he could always bring in a special act, because we have bad a law in e.he House to put a par·~cular apar1:.ment building i.."lto re.cei'lershlp. Back in 1973, I. think, ...,i:h ~~e una.ni:cus supper<:. of :.'-le House - ',.,'"hat was i.t1 .. :::he t.a.kes.i.d.e'? ... ;:: :>me apa.::-..::~e:-.-:. building i1ere in St.

John's was in vas":. d.i!'!'iC'.llties and :.'1e tenan-:.s .,.ere bei.'\g sul::ljec<::.ed eo harassrnen:::, a dispute bet:Weer. o .... 11e=s and it waz ;oi::.g eo take a .... hila t.o resolve it. .;nd if you. would go eo t.'le su'tute boo~s, Mr. Cha.i:man, you \ol'ill find ''-n o\c'l: To A?~oint. A ?.ecei,.-er" -- :. :.!".J..:" .. ":. i:. 3802

~ver:i::ler .;a, 1979 EC - :! or wnat.ever it. was called - just:. one single apa.r-.... -.e:-.t:. ~uilc..i.~g. M.r:.d. if we ~ave. Cone t:..'ut .,e can su=ely have a l:lill, ar. ac::, :o Cea.l 1o0it:.h a. pa:-:.icu.J.a: ccut';il. 5o all r ·..rou.l.d say is t.'te ::'li.nisU!r has :.ot. dealt:. wit:..'-1 the pol.n': on it.:s :r.eri~. i am awa:e of no ot:..1.e: province in CanaC:a <;.hat has a si::U.la.r power, no: has :..."le r.li::ister r:it:.ed any t:.o us.

Equally, I am not aware of any provision anY"' ... hare in t..1.e laws of t.'1.i.a COU."lt:""'/ whereby a ei tizen can be convic-::ed !r.ri ser. ten::eri . ..,i :.~out:. ~ h.ea....-ing, '""it.."lout. ar.y racou:se of appea.l a.nd in acirii t.ion, be denJ.ecl. even t..'le opport:.'.ll"l.it:.:t to see:<. vinc.ica:.icn !ro::'l :.1.e na:"l.ds o: t-• .:.s r ~ould add one ot.1.er point. co :..~at:., :o ~is predecessors. : am also :old t..1.at. :.'le cinJ.s::er !.r:.c.ic~::.e.:i ~.at. ehe goverr.:r.ent were prepa:ed to c.~ar.ge :."leir posit.ion on :..1.at. a."'tC. t..'1.at:. tn.ey ·.rould - well, t.he ::tinist:.er shakes his head. l ca.'l. only cell :-• .:.::t what. ! have been <;old• said - r sa.ici I nave been t.old t.'lac.

It is heresa;• in t:.."le legal ser:.sa !:ut posicion as he unders"t:.3J'lds it., aut r :lave beo:n :old chat:. t."':.e FeC.erat..!.or. have been told b1 t..~e ~nister or per~aps =y on~ of his preCecessors - but by :..'te minister, ·Jt".oever he ..,as ... whet:.."le::- l.t:. ·•as :..':.e l".on. gen-:.le:na.n I the: gove!'1'1.:t'.ent. dic:l indicat.e t..":ey ...-are ;:repareci to C!'l.Ange t.."'.el.:: posit..ion ought:. to be done. r ·.o~ot.:.l.d i".ope "t:..l-te mi."'lister cocld at. leas: respond to :."le t:eri t3: of t.'le q..:esticn. His de fence, ! would a:que, :1::.

C:tai~a.."":. ir. i'!Sel.f, a:'l.d e,.o-en i.:? i: is sc:ong in i'!S~l!, it iz no: ::2le•ta.n't. :o :.he point wh.i:::!':. has been :aCe. 3803

Tapa :!.512 :::c - 3 t."l..is, !1:::. :.'1air.:tan, !or :..'te ti::-.e being, here ·...-e :.ave a :ase ·...-nere a poll~;al officer, a :::.:.n.:.st.er - and "r cia :'.Ct. say -:..'ta:. i:-.. a.."ly :.e::n ::~£ opprobrium, a political officer to :r<>1 is a :·.i;h ot!ice and one of respor.s.iJ;ili:-J anC. one o: st.at.u.re - but a political of!ice,: can dismiss a person wit.'tout a.'"l.y ilea:ing, wit.."tout a.r.y appeal, wit..'lout:. any charge being laid, wit.."lout any d.iscwuion, wit..'lou: a.n:f':.'ting ot..'l.er t..'lan a. tbOtion o! t..'le t:linister or a. totion of t..'te Cabinet. ir. :he form of .1..."1 Order l..."l COt:.ncil, I >;"..l.ess, or a direc~ive of CX..in~:.. and -::::."'tat. ci :J.::en is 3804

~veaber 30, 1979 Tape :-:o. lSJ.J so - l :~.. E:. ::tOES?.TS: i:'l t..~-: way 'f wou.ld sin.ply say :.o h.un :!'.at: it:. i:1as been :J.sed in '!.":.at way, i~ ~as :J.sed in t..~a: way for shee~ parti5an ~olitical ?u:?Oses, In ~act., :.."ta::: is "'"hi' t..":a!: amer:.C:en: ::&:t~ .!.::. :a:k i:t, r do not k:-.o.,.', 1375, 1976 - it. ... -as bro:.:.gh.e in by :-tr. Hilll~ oooc:t· t..,.en, he was a r:inister it -.. as b~ougho:. in sl.:'lply '!0 puni.sh a. ;enele:na.n ..,.ho real o!£enc!! was ';.he ':.i:nerity to run agains-:. !of.r, Doody in the ... •..ras it.

Hart:our ~Ain, Bell Is!.:ir.d in. 1975?• :r=s, Harl::our :tl.i:l -Bell Isla!".C :."l:e :::!.is::r~cc was t.."l.~.-: called, the ::eciis~.:i.luc.:..on '.JaS O.a!ore ':.he e.:.ec:i:::a· .. ;;.."ld that. was the :eal t!'.eas:.:.:-a of :~ .. :·::::;::::SC:t; .::t. 'Z':-iC.!S: ?O~ition where he is ~~e judge, Jury ~ dXecut..ioner. In ~~~s pa.::ucular case, it ::ct. only r'!fers ..

C'.l :!'rienC. •..ras t.a~ng a!::.o~t :--here a COW\Cillcr is C.is:isseC., C.Oes :-.ot. say ,dis:r.issed ,.,.;,::h .:a'.ls~ t:.~:a-: cieals ..,.it.."l ~-..:llli!i:a:iol"'. of co:..;.r:.ci.!.lo:-s, ,·::.u: ~c...-, has a fa~lt. o: a:.: ::.:...e cou~ci.!..lors 1 ::he rea;,o:: !or ::::e di.s:!issa.l, J"Ou f::'.c·.:, 3805

,Jovel:lZer 30, 1979 ':'ape .;o. lSlJ S:J - 2 The hen. tle.:r..ber is talking about:. sect:.ion 5197 ::..::. :tP .• ~. ?.:JSZ?.'!'S ' Only do it once. .. .:-;.. ;; • :1\?.Su.;.::.:. ~ Okay . :·!?.. ... 7!iC:·!.S ' u.ncere.moniously dismissed. : -.:::.ir.k t..'le ~.<ini.s :.er shcu.ld c:sr:a:.r.l:· con!:: i:.;e.:: ~~Ls pa:ticular

section so rep~;nar.t,Cer~inly, in a ~a=cc.::a:.i: socict:t .::~ne should :-.o: l::e cii.r..isseC. without. fi:s~ :ei."':.g ~!e to st.ace. his side of t..'le story. A.r.d :: thlr.k t..'l.is is w:-.at :O,.l.ppens right. here. And li~e : say, it is not jus: a :ouncillo.::. Where I a co~~cil is C.i~ased t..~en nei~~er one ::~ ~cse cc~cillc.::s can read t..~e

section o! the act:. a.."l.ci Ho1.:.:n.r.g. 3806

~cve=Ze: JO, 1979 Tape :;o. lSl.J .so ... J hen, gen:l~a.., ::~o the: Straie. of 3elle Isle (;-!r. ::::. RoC~:':

s) i::di:::a::eC., :..•u.e. we wc'J.ld. cha.r.ge i::., In face., wnen ;,;e :::o:::pl""e.ed c..:.r 3807 .... _~ ... ---~·

~ovember JO, l9i9 Tape No. 1514 H.R. '..JL.'>j'"OSOR: does no't ha·Je authori:::y to ::ii.smiss a council, or a co~~cillor. The hon. gen~le~an has concerns -chat all councillors ::o.ay not. be guilt.y of '..rhat.e•Ier :.hey are beL"'.g di.s:::issed fo:; . .;.:J. that case they would not -be dismissed. ><Ie woulC:- dismi.ss one or e-,o~o or t...lu:ee or four, or however znany needed eo be ::i.:.smissed, the r,u.mber of p~ople '-4bo were involved i:1 a pc":icular di.::'!icult.y. And so it. does :tot: effect somebod~ ho9efully,who is not involved in a ?articular ~nciden~. All we are saying, Mr.

Chai:zan, is ~~at ~~e council being dismissed by ~~e Gove~ent of ~4e ~rovince, or an indivi::iual, sho~ld nave a ~ooling of! period and we would r~te -co 3ee t:he ::iismissal of a councillor or an indivi:!:.:.a2. ·,..nere c:.a-c person was re-el.ec~ed or ...,hate'J'!.t' a.r.d ·,..e are back ~here ...,e s~ar~ed. 'r!'le 'non. gencleman said :hat: we have all ldnds of c::merol -:lve: council:o:s. !~ere :s.re .3 lot o! -:..'ti.n~s tha:: '"'e do ~ot have con':.:ols eve::, a.....O: ~is pa.:"t.icular piece of leg:.slat.:..on is inde~d git.ring a lot ::'lOre auconomy to councils.

So all ··•e a.:s sayir.g is t.l-ta~ ~e are :.he authorities a."l.d i! ':.",e aueoncml.es of the act are abused tha:: ::.her9: :nust ;,e room to ':..3.-ke ac::ion. MR. CHAI?~'1At' (Sair:!l: of eelle Isle. T~e hen. me~er :or ~~e ~t=a.:..:: flog a horse, it by ::he ::tini.:n:er' s a.c:: is a dead horse. !'t :.s Just going -co have ::o :-emain un.resolved and in due course, when e..~e wheels of fat.e change :.n t.h-e appropriate !as.'lion, ~·ou know, :..":.en :he amendmen-c ~l.ll he made. au:: I simply wane to say ~":.e ~inist~= showed how ut:.t:.erly L'lconsis-cene he is.

Of course t.~ere :.s no rule- frcm t.~e House o! Assembly. If 'the hon. minister ...,ere to .be dismissed ::omor::ow from the House of Asse~~ly and : am not suggest~ng he should be, Z certainly do :lot t.":.~:.k he would !::le, but if :.~!!.::. coul':! - anC dla': certainly has happened, t:-.ere is: noehing a't all. in t..'le c:-iminal code, i..f t..'le :-ton. gentle!'!!an •.o~as sen"tenced to ;!. o:er:n of more !:han five years i..:1. jail then his seat :.s ·-:oid a.r..! ! do noe !::el.:.eve you can !"' .. ln for ele.c-:.ion. ! am not even sure of t.'la't. ::: r-.now ::.'":a-:. in 3808

November 30, 19i9 :'ape ~o. 1514 !1..tt. RCS.E?.'l'S: I.::e.!.and ir. t."l.e .!.380s t.'>1e trish ~ationalist-~s we.::e regularly elected and re-elected while ~~ey were languishing in Her Majesty's prisons. This happened­ Car~ell,for example 1 was elec~ed from jail and a number of ot.~ers !iM • 2 were regularly elac~ed, expelled and re-elected by -=..'leir cons.tieuents. You ~~o~ t.~ere is no barrier in t.~s House. If t.~e hon. gentleman were to be di$missed from t.~e House to:r.or=ow, whic~ can be done at a..'\y time by a :najoriey of t..1.e House, it can pu~ any member out.

Ie happened in Ca~ada t.~irey years aqo wieh ?aul ::tose .. There are all sorts of precedents. ar.d ::,~n if a by-election were to be called a couple of months dcwn :he road, ~~e ~on. ;eneleman could s~d !or :e-~leceion and if he were returned by his constieuents would have the same right ~ t~~e a sea"t in the House as any other member re-e.:.tr!".ed i."l. -3:lecU.on.

But i: is J~St inconsis~en~. is '.o't'ong. de!en.:;i·.te. !t :..s J.nti-d.emocra:.!.c. 3ut i! ~~e minister is going to be stubbor~ about it, as he is, t~ere is no~~ing we can do ~xce?t co record our position' and say ~~at :..n :ue course jus:ice wi!l be done. 60, car:ied. !-1.R. ROBERTS: of aelle Isle. MR. RO:SERTS: 8n :not..:.cn clauses 5i. t.:....rough Shall clauses 61 ~1.rough 70 carry? r wan: co as~ a ~estion on pe~s~o~.

The hon. :ne:nber !or tb.e S ttai '.: 64 ! believe i-e. is, well 64, 05, 66, it is sor~ of a little code on pensions, probably ~~e only place in ~~e act wr.ere i: appears, ~~ere may or ~y not be similar provisions :cr regional government, but it does not matter anyway. we are talkL~g here - •.re are in division .:, t.rnich i.s t.~e consti::J.tion of a cou.'1cil. M.d t.~ese are ~~e sections ehae will apply to by fa= ~e greater part of ~~e municipal goverr~ent bodies ~~roughout this Province i~ ~~e f~tu=e. 3809

November 30, l9i9 Tape No. 1514 ~lM - 3 !1..tt. ROBERTS: Pension plans are a greae idea. They are an essential p~ of ~~e compensa~on of ~~y em?Loy~e. They also have ~~e ability ::.o bank...-up::. ~~e aut:.ho:iey ent.e:ing in::o ie. ! think t.."le Minister of Finance would agree :..;at:. if our balance sheee as a Province had eo - : :io noe :<."low wha::. :te i.s reading, one in t.."lree, i::. sourAs ll~e a description of the ~remier. Or is i::. three in one?

But I t.ltink t..'te Minister of E'ir.a.nce '.ltOuld agree with. me <:hat when we :ile a prcspect:.us i.n t..~e bond markat3 down in :he USA. or wherever we go, you ~"low, we will ~e ~~e United s::.ates because SEC have, I t..~nk, the most:. advanced disclosure in repcrt:.ing requirements in Nort..~America, probabl'l in the world. Sut if we had to dislose on ehat our liabilities as a Province, in respect of ~e pension plans, t..lte."'' t.."le balance sheet:. would look aven conside:a.bly more grJ.mmer than it:. d.oes now. I think t.b.e :n:!.nist:er wou.ld ~gree . .,.it:..'1 ':..'1at..

There was a royal co~ssicn about - there h&Ve been a::. least ~ ... o on ?ensio~s. The.:e was one atou't. ~wency years ago ,.,.i:..'1 the late H:. Gregory O'Grady as chair:na."l. And -=.."len subsequen-::. :he::e was one, I believe wit.h !it'. Cleorge !::ye:, .... no was e..l-ter. - '!" t.'1ink he . ..,.as sUll ac d1at ?Oint the Deputy :·U:1ister 3Si0

November JO, 1979, Tape 1515, 2age 1 -- apb MR. F;OBEP.'!'S: of Labour ~no had subsequently retired !=om t.~e publi.:- service but: as far as I k.'"low is s:ill alive, t.,ey looked at t.~s question of pension liabilities. They were frightened. Now, this is not the place to go into t...~e Province's conmit:nents, but I want to raise t.'ti.s question in respec't:. of cou.."lcils.

T.."lere does not appear to be in here any cont:rols at all w~eh respect to pensions. :t gives a council t."le power to set: up a pension plan and ~o decide hew t.~ey are to be carried out:, and they can be carried out eit."le: by an arrangement ·o~il:h a private insura.nce company or by a contract wit.."l the federal governti'ent under ~~e annuit:ies legislation or by cont:act wi~"l the governcent of tile Province.

It does not give ·t.~e council - and I chink t.~is is a good thing, I will. give t:he mi:llster credit because : am su_-e he pa_""tiC".Ll.arl:r directed t.~l3 - i:. does not giv<: a :ouncil t."le power to set up t..l;eir own plan on ::heir O'-'n hcok.

But I wane to ~~w what.· cont::ols ~~ere will be to ensure ~~a~ a p~~sion ~~c is set up is - I am r~c saying, because I a= noc sure, t:.."lat: t..~ey ought to ~e !u."lded, ! think t.ltat: is an arr;umen:. t.lta~ bec~er brain.l t..~a.'l any of ou..""S have ~gled wit.,_ and t.~ere is :to real resolution ~ t..~e question of whet.~er pensions ought :o :~ fully f'Jnded or no<:. Your Honour is aware ,,jf t.':e various schools of thought.

The ~'lada Pension Plan was originally set. up as a fully !u..'lded plan and there was a :neet:ing !n 1964 i!"' Quebec City at which ~e pension plan ceased to be fully fu..'lded and is now partially funded and partially not. funded. The result: is t:.hat we. are all :.old that. a.bout t:.."le time anybody o:ny aqe or younger becooe eligible for the canada Per~ion, in abou: ~~e year 2000 or 2001 and 2002 or somewhe:-e arotll".d there, tha.c tile pension plan "'ill be bankr~p~.

Wel:, of course, it will not go bankr~pt but t."le coneributions will ~ave to be raised or t."lere will have to be coneri.butions made from sources ot..,er than :.he 9-eople enrolled in t."le per.sion ?lan. 3811.

November 30, 1979, Tape 1515, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: So I wor.C.er if t.he :ninis:te.r eould tell us a li:tle bit about ~~is. !t is not a major ?oint o! principle, but it is an imporcant point in administration. I do not know whe~,er many councils in Newfoundl~~d ~~w have pension plans. I assume ~,e City of St. John's does because ! see ave~/ now and e., en i.n ~,e newspaper repor'ts of the weekly council notes; council. voted X number of dollars for pe!lSion and so on. .. ·- there are, are ~~ey funded and are arranqemenes made to protect them?

Because it is a great tragedy, and we have seen it happen in Newfoundland, whe=e people S?end their l.:.·.res •,oiOr.iu .. ng and they may be tt".aking 4 contribution eo a pension plan or" ::taybe they do not, but they ur.dersta.r.d t:.hey ha\."'8 a pension plan and t:'!en in due course retirement comes up and subsequently ~"le ccmpany paying the per.sions goes ba..nkrupt or goes out of business. !t does not even have to go bankr-Jpt:., just wind up. ! had one, a member of my family who was involved, ~~e Royal Stor~s.

Many people spent ehei~ lives ~~ere, there was a ?ension plan in place and the employees retired arA people drew ~~eir pensions under it, there ~as neve~ any question,:Oue in due course th.e ~yal Stores ·•ound '.l!? thei:- busi..~ess a..."'u:! went O'.lt of busi..,ess. I do not e•.ren know i! :he~e is a company UJda.y called The ?..oyal Stores Lir:tited. ! t..~ln .. J.;. i: was ~~e original company or Har1ey is number one. !! you go ~own eo the regiserJ eit..1.er Ha.rvey's or the Royal Stores was comp.my number one ~d company number t"W'o incorporated in Newfou..~dla...~d. It is in receivership. MR..

ROBER'!'S : It is in receivership now, is it? ! ~,ank my lea-~ed friend. He may have run across ie in a professional sense. aut in any event, t..~ey are not paying thei:- pensions, ! unders1:a.~d. '!'here was :to :noney available to ,?ay t...~e pensions so ~"le result was ~,ae a lot o! people who had counted on - ::nont.1., tttt.1ch :nore :oodest:. now t..i.a..~ t.,ey were when they wer'= est:a..bliahed tweney, t:.hir.:"J, fo~-e:; years ago, but a !.ot of ;eop!.e '<~ho W"Ould !'lave counted on tha~ as a portion of :.."leir income are not able 38:12

~ovember 30, 1979, Tape 1515, ?age 3 -- apb MR. ?.CBE?..'!'S: to receive L:. Tha~ is an ever presen~ dang~r wi~~ pension ?lans.

It is not so much a danqer presumably wi~~ governments because our pension plans are not fund.ed, I am not sure we ever could af£ord to !und 't.'lem and even if ve could, I am not so sure we should because '"'e just: accept ehem as ongoing obligations of the government and ~'le Minister of Finance each year has to set aside so many millions and I suspect that the miniseer, i! h.e has had some studies C.one, t..ltey will cause night..""tares do'-'!• :he road because the median age in t!le ?eopla en-"":'l!ed in pension plans in t.his P::ovi."lce, Mr.

Chair:::an, is quite low. :e is going up all ~e ti:e, but ~e must be about t..~rty years away f:om the big bang on tile pension plan of t:..l-:.is ?rovince at which seage who ever happens to have t:..~e good fortune to be Hinister of Finance th.en is just going to have the roof fall in on hi~. I a:n sorry. Oid :he hon. the member !or St. John's Sasc (M:. xarshall) ~ant to say somethi~g7 MR. :-!A..~HA:..:.: \Ina~le). MR. roBE.ttTS: He looked like he ~as gathe:ing himsel! to launch into something or otl'ler.

So ! wonCer i~ :he minis~~: ct)uld touch u~n io:.:O !.: is an i:r.por""..a.nt quesei.on and t:..lti.s, ! t:..lti::k, is ~~e fi=s~ ei~e - am I correct: - we have 3813

~.ove:±ier 30, lS179 :ape .<o. 1516 en - 1 H?.. Z.. ROE'-.~':S: ever given councils t..":..e ;ower :.o 6J this. So it. is a new C.epart.ure X.~. H. WTNCSOR: !".:.

Clai:man, let :::e say fi=st of all t..'1at t.:•is u an ext.reJI.ely fle~le sect:!.on of :::..1.e ;..ct. !:: ;J.ve.:; ccmplet.e ::ont:ol ::o t..'l.e counci.:..As tile :len. :;3r.tleeian sa1s ,t.Oare cices r.ct at-:-ear to be any cont.:ol by -:.:-.. e l:.U1ist.e: ar..C ir.C:.eed t.'lere is :-.or.e. a group insurance, '"'lhi.c:h is t.he next seet.i.on; -.,e cove: bot-h o: provision t:.:.1at allo...,·s :or part-ial par~nt. by cot:.ncil,or allows ccu."'l.cil the ri;~1t :.o ent:.er in::o agreer:.ants '-l.i::.n t.:1e ?rc·Ji.nc:-a; i.e also allcwz po~-ability frc~ mcnicipali::y t.o ~cnici;ality becaU3e,!cr i~st~~ce,a lot o! town :::.anac;ers r.:ove Ercm :nc."'l.iCJ.pa.!.i::J' ::o :!"U."lic.ipality. ~o u."lder t;.tis £;articular sect..::.on of t.'le ;,c; tltey c.::m nave a port:able pens:.cn r:u:..i:ipalit:.ies are part of t.llat. san:'!· pension plan. :::een sought cy t:unic.t.pa.lit:.ies, in pa::..icular t."le FeCe:-a::ion, !ot" some :;.i:;,e. !-=. is f!.exi::::.le enougn as ""ell: particularly in t.he group insu:ance. ::ake ;.art in, ~,at sort. of t.'ti::.q. ::an sa:;s,it: cioes :£.:.rovide council the opport.u.."li;y, ~"le riynt t:.o ente: i."l.t.o an a.gree:r.ent.. 1'!1ey can t:e fi:.a.ncially Zurcleusome en councils ,of course. but ...;e are giving council full control of 1:.'1eir finances. ...,e are sa:,·ing in t..'le next

section we ,are about:. ~ co:.e to t.>at:. b:..:C.;ets a.:e :m lc:1g!.:lr to i::le approwd ".Jy t:.."le ~inister anC. that. council can set :.'1eir 0\on ~ud-;9-t:. I:....~~other words, ::hei: !ina.."lcial affairs a:c enu:::-=.l·i ";.;;tel.:: c-.. -....; t;;,J.s -.s just 3.."lOt...'1e: area .... r-.e:e. t;:e~· ...,.:.11· have con-.plet:e .::or."::ol over -:..~e fina.nces anC. can enter i.nt.o cor.t.raet:s wit..~ t:.."le gove:nment or t...1.e Go\"er:ur.ent. o! Canacia or 'Jhomever t.ney ""is.1. :o prcvicie pensions and grcu? i."lsu.ra."lce ~o 3814

~ovember 30, 1979 ME.. CP..A!1l"'.A...'l (BAIRD) : Belle Isla. MR. ROBERTS: Tape !-Jo. 1516 .OW-2 The hon. member f:Jr the Straits of !{one of us would have any objec:.ion at al~. in fact we would welcome, to pu~ it a little ~ore st:ongly, the principle that councils ought to be :na:at:e.rs in t.heir own houses. au:. I think 1:. is fair to say that ~~e Uovernmen:. of ~"''.e Province cannot be like Pontius Pilate and ~ash its hands - MR. wnmscR: !1R. ROBER'!'S: I have no real (L.'UI.udible) to t...'le cour.cil.

I know 1:.,e minister may or may not pay any ~etantion to w!..at I say 1 but at: least ! .un owed :..he cour'tesy of :W...-=:. listenL~ ~o ze. I do not :n.L"ld him c-onsu.l~g w.:.eh his collea;ue~ I th.ink ~"lat. is eo the benefit of bot.'-1. of t."lem. The minister, I k.."l.cw, is f~iar with 1:.~e old story told in :orne: Brook :.~t so-and-So :noved f:om corner arook ::o St. John's thereby l.ncre.asing the intellectual capacity of bot.h places. I think the consulta:ion Oetween :~e two hon. ger.t!emen f~lls in t...ltat. :atego.ry. MR. r,;:nmSOR: Do ~o: be ~as:.y. X..~.

ROBE.q'!'S: r: a..'!l r.oc :::.ei.."lg nasty at ~l.!.. ! a=n being very, very pleasan't. indeed. r ::ay ad.d. ac -:on.iiderabla effort give.'1 t."le :nir.is:er's attieude, but e..~: is another s~ry. Sue £.njl"'ooay '"hac : was saying was :11.!.: the principle is 3. ;cod. one of ::ounci..l.s being :na.s't.ers in theu own houses :Einanciall:r.

Even t..'"lough, of course, t.'"ley a:e st.ill subjec: co b~ flickea out. w.:.t.hout any recourse of :heir elec::~aee. ! :nean, ~~ere is t..>us s-... ord of Damocles hovering ove.r every council '"l.th a very thi."l t;hread and :he minist.er ha.s t;he scissors to cue :hat thre.aci i."l h.is hand .!.Ild so the sword can descend at any :..i:ne. I :nean, no councillor t.~oughout Newfo~land and Labrador should be ~~er 3.nY illusion, when t."lis Bill becomes law, tt-.a: he is any more independe!lt.

He still has to answer :o :.e political :::aster 1 the Cabinec, and .J.t. any ti:ne t..'le Cabinet can give .1i:t. :.he flick, he does not even have :.he recourse of ;oir.g :o h.is electorate and sayi..-.g, ''Who do you want., me or the cabi.."le:?' However, . .,.e f'.ave d.iscussed t.hat. r will not !'log J:.ha: particular horse again, .not here. anyway, not -:cciay. I do '"'ant to say t.l"'.ough e.."lat <;..."le ;ove:nment c~not just wash i~s hands, it: ca..""mot. pull a Pontius P~ace. 3815

:;cvem:.ar JO, 1979 -rape ~'io. 1316 ;;;~; - J the :tor •• tr.e.r.::;er for St. Jon.,' s East:. (!·!r. :1a.rshalll i.s st::.iling in a - (Inaudible) ~<ell, I am sure ~,.ey are enjoying ::..'"lis in:r.ensely, a.re they? They have - A.U :it.h~. ~:·!BZ?.: They have gift:. for you. M..,'q. E. ROBE?.TS: 'l'!ley nave a gift:. for tr.e, ti1.e red rose. ! had a noee from ':.."'.e F.:Utor o! Hansard •,;hJ.C.'l I t . .''l.ink ·.;as c;,u.i':.g wi::t:.:{.

"A recent chat wi~ ehe Han.sard renderings of your recent:. rema:ks !..'1 t.'1.e tou!Oa lea .. -es ::o conclude t:..'lat.ou: mo::eo should be - ou: ma1:::o, nee :-..:.r.e- '::co tir is humane:' r ::n.:.::r.. t..'l.at is 3. '.te=-i' 'Jl.t.e:: t.'ti.nq inC:eeC.. Sut an'f'o~ay, .st:.racegy is straeegy a.nr.l we :lUSt: cic our C.t:.q· a..M.C. t:.e :•en. ge.n::.leca."'l. o;:i"osi:.e -:.ries :::~ :::.o ;u.:a as aest:. .• e ca..'1. .:..::. ru . .s n~.i:le ·.:ay. I Co not know ~f t.ne Spea;.;.er is :ec.itoning to :r.=:. Anyo..ray, I :io Nish, 'iour uonou=, t..'lac.

JCU -..·t,;n.:lci not allow ':-'lese c.i.sr.;;;:ticns ar.d irr~l=vanc.le:o ::o cor.:e in" I tr.ea:1.1 .:.t is sc.c:!l a ter:i.ble t.'l.i!lg .. i mea."'.,it. tMe.s ~ a;.;.:a:z' :rom t."l.e pi:.."l. and t:..ne st.:.bs:ance o: ···hat. l.s ;oi:.:; on arounQ i.1ere. ':b.~ f-Oi!'l.t. i.s e:.'1J.s, a.'ld :: assure 't:."l.e :nirt.ist~: :..e:~ l.S a ;o.:.nt 1 3816

November 30, 1979, Tape lSli, Page l ..... apb MR. ?.03£.-=.Ts: ::..~ae t..~e gover.uoont just ::a.nr.ot ~Jash. t:.h.eir 11a..'tds LL":e Pontius ?ila t.e. The ::tunicipali ties in t.."1.is ?::evince exist L"l law as c=eat.ures of t.hi3 House of Asserrbly - ana r do not use that were! "c:eature" in any offensive sense, although I ::eali:.e eo seme it has t..~at connotation - but ~ey exist only because we have passed statutes in t..'le House that give c..,em =or:...orate li.!e. !.n ':h.:~.""; sense, every company, Newfoundland company, at lease, i~ ::..~e Province is a creature of t.."1.is House.

And t..~e gove~~ent does have an overall supervisori responsihility, even short of a legal one, because, of ::curse, ::.."le Government:. of t..,e ?rovince l.S responsible eo ':he admini5tra~on of ::..,e municipal affairs in ehe ?rovince, in a supern.soey sense. ...,.hat kind of So r wonder if the ~nister could tell us '.-'Ould ~"le.re =e any :hecks on t.."lese pension plans'? 2ec.J..use these have ::.."le pct.ential, :rcu know, it. 1:"-AY see:n li.ite a small ;oint:, Mr.

C.."lai.r:r.a."l, u.."lless lour r.onour casts You: a:onour 19 honoural::l-! ::tlnd. to it, at which stage Your Moncur will reali:e quickly ~,a~ ~hese plans - group•L"lsurance, I ... auld say is a li:::.le di!feren-:, !::eca:.:se, of course, group insurance tend eo be short-te~ cont=aces ~nd insurance companies only wriee t.hem fo~ a year or t~ or t.."lree, and ~~ey na~e actuarial bases on t."lem and so for.:."l. And nobody, ::.o ':':!'/ k.'"l.cwledge, but insur~~ce companies ...,.ri:.es group insurance ?lans, and an insurance company ~o~ould do so only i! '!hey belie· .. e it. ::.o be !inancially sound.

Sut pension plans are - t.."lere are many pension plans aro~d which ! ca."l assure t.'le ministe::: are n.ot ac1:.ua.rially sou!'ld.

In fact., one of t.."le real reforms for t..~e Cabinet ~o bring in, if they are looking for. as ! suspect t:.h.ey are, for "reforms" that do not cost the treasu.ry any :r.oney ... and t.~t is surely -:he underlying st:=aeegy of the pr'!!sent:. adminis~ration at this stage in t..~e ;ame - they might. look at legislation to govern pensions plans in :his Province, eo ::'lake :..i.em portable, t.ho::oughly ;::or-:able, ':0 ma.<e ':hem ves-:., at sorr.e poin-t. because ·~ have the diffic~l:Y ~f pension plans where people punch i~ ~enty or t..,ir="f years and it eu::::-.s out t:.hat t..~ey 'ain't gee not.."lin', at .3817

November JO, 1979 Tape lS17 ?!: - 2 Mr. aot:erts : out that. t.!ley'ailt't. got noch..in',' you k.."tow, at no poi:lt was i: vested, and to ;;.rovide !or some scheme of ::equl..:t.t:ion and governance and to make them reasonably stable. ":.ha~ l.-.a anot:...lter· topic. aut t.lten agai.."l. CoulC the ~inister :ell us, you ~~ow, \ilhet.,er there is going to be any supe....-yision ~t al!.7 They are not: even required, as I 3ee it, and :: may not see it, but: as I do see it they a:e not required even to ! ile a copy of :!lei: pension plan w:. t.~ anybody.

You knew, pres~~hly they will have one themselves. ;;.r.d :naybe ~t ehe same time·- and I do not like eo ask t.,..o ;uest:ions at or.ce because it gives the minister ~i.e opport'.m~ey to answer only t.he second and not. '!he fi:st, but:. for":.unately i.!'l Cotr:ni t:tee, You::: Honour, ·.;e can come h4ck again, and we are p:::epa:<ed to ., can t.he :n.inist:er tell '.:s whethe= a..1.y c.."lought:. has been given eo doing, in respect: of municipall.ties, ·.mae. has been -:!one i.!'l. respect. of hospiuls in <:~is Province. ~low r a:n no c ~e ~heche: it is run by - r do not: tb.L~ it ~s run by che Newfoundl~nd aospit:.al Association- ~ybe :he Minist.er of Finance {Dr.

J. ccllL1.

s) could help or perhaps the ,;entleman :or E:xploit.J (iJr. T;.;omeyJ , •.tho : suspect:. to be a member of t.Mt plan - c..1-er~ is a cont:'rlon plan !cr all ~he med.ical/hospit:.al employees i."l. the Provwce. ! :.."link it replaces the ol~ Newioundlar.d Hospital Association Plan. ~•d ! ~~ir~ it is ei~e::: ehe P~lic S~-vice plan or it somehow mer;ed in with t.he ?ut:~c Service plan.

And, for exa;npl.e, t.he IGA e.:::ployees, che.::e <o;as a ?ensi.on plan, that is being ·.rour • .:i up .uld merged i.nt:o a - but t.."l.e gent:le:.an for Exploits, '-'hat I .uu aski.ng is whet:.her the coee.ages hospiea1 employees no 1 the cottage r~spital employees are a bad example because they ~re government employees directly.

Whet:her, say t:he employees of c~e Grand !alls Hospital, Central Newfoundlarn Hos?it:al ~it.h which th~ gent:leman !or Exploits ·.;ould be familiar, he has 'NOrked t-"l.e.::e !or ::-·ears, '-'het:her the pension plan in which chey are enrolled, is it. the goverruuent: plan or is it:an :m.A plan or •.tbat.? Does he k:-,ow? The ':lne L"l Grand E'alls is th'! ~1ewfound1anC. eospital Associa~on. pensl.on. 3818

Savember 30, 1979, Tape 1517, ?age 3 -- PK MR.. ROBERTS : Well, I ~~nk ~y friend. ~he So~~ood one, of course, is because ~e em?loyees a~ 3ocwood are ci~~l servants. 1'hey are public service in e..~e same '"'ay as an employee of t.'le Oepart:ment of Transportation and COmmunications operating a snow­ plow. The one in Grand Falls, I understood the ~niA was being merged into ehe government. plan. They are :.'li.r .. '<.ing of doing -:~t. M!t. ROBERTS: I see. I thank my friend because I am not able to ?ar~=ipate in either so I do no:.

Sut ~e, as ~'le hon. gent.leman knows, have a plan here in this House which ain't so bad at all in fact. ~e only ~ng is you ha~~ ~o get. out of ~'le House to collect it, but that is arranged sometimes easily and sometimes painfully. Mr. Chairman, cou.!.d the :ni.!'lis-:.er tell us whe~'ler ~'ley propose, ~'ley being the Federation of ~u.~icipalities, a Province-wide plan? They seem to ~e 3819

~ove~er 30, 19i~ Tape lSl3 l::C - l ma.i<.e •ter.l good ser.se .to Z:.ave a .big pla.1., all :.i.e :n'..:.nicipa.l.i~ies ir. on it. 1 a.ll of :..i.ern ::xm::.:ibuti!lq an e.;.ual pr~por"'-ion. Anci :..1.a<: would also, of eou...-se, solve :.."l.e por-:a!Jility - or at least qo a long way :awards solving the ?Or':abili':'/ issue. ! agree complet;ely, I thir.k i-:. is ,a .,.ise p~Vision he is r?Utt:.i.."lq in here t...'1at. a - you know, it. is r.o good. ha ..

"in; a. plan unle:u it is por-:a.Clc, !let::3use Cln?loyees, particularly the l:lore skilled people, t.he town :-.anaqers anci so !or";."l., eo move a.r.C. '"'i.ll continue eo cove. !!l ~act, t...~ere is a~os:: a progression, is ~"l.ere not: They sear~ in a sma.lbr community anci t:1en a couple of years Cown :he :-oaci :.:..,e:r l:love ':.0 a large: o::nr.::a~."'l.i:OJ, a couple of years C.ow:1. t..'":e road t:.."l.ey :r.ove ::o a larger one still..

AnC. :."lat. is !air .anough, t..~a:: is well an.:! gcoci.. '::J.e hon. gen::l~~.,, himself, wen<: ~roc ~eing t.."l.a Town Sngine~r in ~~un-:. ?earl to beL1.g ";.~..e tr.L1.ister i:t charge of a..!.l the ww:'l.s l.:'l. :iew!our.d.lar.C. and t.~rad.or anC ;,e ·o~ill probably be ba.c.":. in ciua eourse somewhere C.oing some~'li~c; else as t. ... a no:::na.l ::.-.i.nq is. Sut ::oul::i :"l.e ::ell us '"'i':.a.e .a.rrange::ents :ic<is he propose to supervi.se t..i..is1 Be::ause, you ~:tow, i:: may seem like -a ::L.:.r.or - po~~': Zu~ .:.: is not, ~. Cha~~~n.

These pension plans do ~av~. fi.:st of all, ";.'te a.biliey seriously to a.!!'ect ::.-..e !inancial s-:.anc!.ing of every ::u.1.i=ipa.li:j" i.n :Jaw!oundland. ar.C r..wrad.or. 7!-.e l.iabili::y these pensior. plar.s ::t.:.!.ld ·.:;;: a..~ ._.hcp?ing.

I ""ould vent;:J.re w say :cd.ay ::. .. a:: :.~e ?r::vir.ce of .iew::ocr.d..:..ar.ci. a.nd :..wraCor, as a pro...-i::.ce, prcbab ly ::.as l.!.a.b!.li::ies i::. excsss :; :: Sl ~illion, to take a figure ou:: of ~"lin ~:, but I ~ave ~o dou=: ~~at i~ would ~e an under es:i~te, a:: least ~l,OOO ~llion l.n r~spec:~ve ?en$l.ons, is what it would c:ose t.oday if we had to go and £•.:.1.d t..~e pension plan. You knew, the pension ll..abili ties in respect of ~ili:.S .. a. guy gets electeC. L'l h.is t.~i:ties 1 as happens ron: and rora :..l;ese dAys - '!..'le pension liabilities i.n respect o!

Cose MF.As ru..'"l to several hun.dre:d :.~usa.r.:! cicllars eae.'l. Scme :;et elec":.ec! i:1 his MP.. ~BER':'S ; Hear 1 he a:: electe:! ~as. 3820

aove:Wer 30, l9i9 Tape 1518 E:C - 2 ?.od :-'.oores, M.~. ?DBERTS: was he? ne was only 26. He was t!1e first: Canadian ~ern Newfou."''dlan~r. He may have been t."'.e !i:st. Cana.d..i.an. :Oor:1. I was eleceed at: ~~enty-six ~~d ~"'.e gencle~~~ from ~illinga:a (:lr. W. :t. ?.owe} was elec~d. at ::wenty-Hve, ar.d ~'ta: may nee. be ::..'"le :(OU.'lges -::.. ;.:.; f"..ON. :,!E.!-8E?.: 't'!'l.e Xinis e.e:: o: !-tines an::! Energ-J (:.t.r. Sa.r:yJ was ninec.een. Oh, no~ Maybe intellec-:.uall.:t Out no-:: c.'lronologi:::ally. :-io, ':le did. not ::ome in •.:.:t~l l372. A.."''d :1.e and : are roughly conte~raries in age.

I. mean, Thoms, t"o<.Oler, ?.owe, Barr-f - he =ight: Ce a year or so younge:: ::..~an t.'te gen~er~n ::em Twillingae.e, :Out:. again t:.'tey are roughly conee!tl.poraries ae l:.'te a a:. The ~mcer for :Willinga:e was. a?.. F!:oSEP.TS : t.'lan :. tie were elec:ed i.t1 1966. He 'oola.5 :wenty-t:.ve a."''d ! :tad jus: ?.USed - t:.,.e elec:.ion was -=.,.e 5:.'1 of Septe:r.l:er and ! t:.:.rned t:.Wer.:.:r-si;<, :Oel.ieve, -:~r. t .. i1e l.a~ of 3-apte.r.ber .. aut ~~e ?e~sion liabili~ies bei~g buil: u; are just L~cr~d.ible, you ~~ow, they are easily SSOO,OOO each. (Inaudible) I a.'n sorr:t. ~..R. ?.C3E.RTS: ~io, no!

Wel1., i! 'J'rf hen. :rier..:i ·.Jas t:a.lking to tcy" f:iend. !rott Baie Ver":.e - ~'ihi ee Bay (H:. Rideout.) he ".lias ge:.t:i.."lg better o::mnsel and conversation t.~a.n he nor.=ally gets ~rom his colleagues. (Znaud.!..l;le) buc:dy eve:- e .. :1.ere. No, it is !or your colleagu~. Xy Con. friend from aonav~st.~ sou~'l (;lr. :1Qrgan) needs all ~~e gi!t.s h~ can ge:. a.nc! : .. :tis one loci(.s lUe a bot.~le of :ttil:C eo :=~e. A.i ;.{QZi • !.£E!-SS R: (Inaudible) sec:re':.S. 3821

~ove~~er JO, 1979 Tape lS!.a ::.c - ! tell it is a .boc:..!e of m.ilk - it is white. ?.n'f'-'ay, I Cc wish., Sir, that t.'le gentleman f.rom aona.vista Sout,;.o (!ir, Morga."ll would pay attention t:J the ::ules of this House and noc at.t.empt. to d.i ver:. m U~e !.'tis. t a.;?Ologize, '!our Honour, I fear : fall prey to temptaeion, .but. sor.:e things are ~o te::-pc:!.nq -:o resist., you k."low, JUS.: eoo t:eeptinq. MR. R!DEOt.'T: ~a bottles o! milk. !1R. li06ER'!S: aut. in any event, : s::ay. ! Co want the ~.i.."l.ister to :all 'J.S ·..-hat, if any, Sl!.!pervisor"J provisions will c:o~.e in'to ef!ec-:.. !

Co r.ot. ·.t~"i.t co see it t;.tenty years ::Own '!.he road wnere soee :nu.-.iei:;:all.ty goes spec't.AC'..tla.r.!.y bank:upt or L'1to a. for::!l. of !:Jar.Jc.:-..tpt.cy a.nC. '!..'te ?ro'li:·:.ce has :o .bail oue a pension pla.., :or a couple o! :til lion Cellars. ':'hat is a. very easily foreseea.Qle contingency a."\d it is one against ·.;hid'. '.ole would be '-~l.Se to tai:.e quar:::. new . a."i.d. housing.

I>'.R. ~i. :ii:iDSOP.: t..~era arl!: !'lO di=eet eonerols on '!..""'.l.s, t..~a:. t,;.1.e :.hir.g i.s po~le. :.e:. :r.e d.eal fir:3t. of all ·.o~it..~ ':.,_e lSS'..l.l! ~;;,e hen. qent.leeta.n ":lrouq:o.t. ·.:.p of a ?er.J.ion plan l:)y :.~e rede:-a:..:.cn. I e.'link t.'tae is e.~eir intent.ion. Eut t.."1is is fle~lti!:, t. tr.ean., a munici;;:.ali ey is r.ot. bour.ci to t.a:...e par':. in t..'-lat. pension plan if one is offered l:)y t.'te Federation. ~"1ay can enter in~ :."i.eir o~n pension plan wie.l-t a priva.ee insu.ranee company o: perhaps join in t.."le government pension plan or '.ihat:ever.

So it is entirely flexible in :..!;.a:; reqa:d.. ':'here are no direct cont-""Ols, as t.'te f'.on. gentleman said. There is no provision he:e e.'lat. a copy of th.at pension plan cust be sent to :.'"le :n.iniste.r or that t.~e :ninist.er has t.'te right :.o go in a.."'\d inspect. and Co an actuarial study on e.'"l.a ?ension plan or whatever. ~owever, at: t..1.e enC. o! eac.~ "]ear, of cou=se, 3822

Nov~e= 30,1979 Tape ~ro. 1519 t..~a ~ud.itor General or se:r.e a~t!.iting :'i.::n .,..ill Co an audio; of !..1-te :ocks UJ.d hopefully he ·./ill have a look at the pe:1sior. lia.!::ility as pa.:t of his audit. ;,.:; HCS. M!:!UaeR: !lot a ( inaudi!;)lel . HR.N .wnrosoa: !to, he ...-oul:;l. at leas-= have: a cu:sory look at t."J.a pension liabilities.

Obviously i! ~"J.e town is i.."l.volvec. ...,·i:h t.~a federation pensio:l plan 1 I would t.."J.ink t.~at t..,e federation will be !:.avinr; t..'lat well conttolled. ~e financial i:.plicaticns tb.at !..~e hc:m. gentleman ulks about a.:e at the end. of t.'le Cay ;.nere t..1.e cieparc:.en-:. has t."t.e a.ut.~ority to .-..;poi."lt an ad.mi."lis:.rator or whatever if a municipality gets into fi..'"la:.cial proble::s. r reali:e t..'la: ;nay boa :.c-o far down t.1.e road,a.s t.'te hen. gentlet:an says, when we realize t.'lat. .,..e have a S2 ::U.llion or SJ :ti.lli.on liabllity en ::ensions in a ::tunici;:ality. 3ut t.'lere are no direct controls as sue~.

There is no provision t.~at t.1.e ::.i."liste.r ::an qo in and have an actuarial st:.:Cy done .;rofe!t:..lly, hcvever 1 ~~e ~ur.iei?alities will be set~!n; up pensions plans ir. aceorda.nee wit.."!. sound fi."ta.ncial practices. MR.CRAI?-~1: (Ba.i.rCl Oelle I.:;h. !lP •• ?.CBEF.':'S: Hopefully is a ;ret-:.y weak reed upon which eo rely, The mi~ister says'hope!ully't~e =uniei?alities will be eoir.g it and r have no doubt ~~at ~st z~~icipalities will.

Most of ~,em are sta!fed by emL~er.tlY responsibl~ people and will only coneenance responsible aets, Even respcr~ible pec?le c~~ be mistaken, of course, even reasonable people can make :i:takes. :hat is not uncett::l!On and,of course, the ::tiniseer hi.."\Self just hal! an hcur ago wa.s telli."lg t.'le C011':nittee e.."J.at he sees a situation • .,here COl!nCils :night do ·o~ild.ly i=:proper t."".ings t.~at are wilC.ly pepular and here is ':!':.e sort of t.'ting t."la t eoulc! eaaily, "Ieey easily 1 ~me up.

So again t.l.o.ere is no :;.oi=.t arguing :..-: .• All we ::an de is :eeord au= :cnce.:ns anC we •Jill see what happens, But : would ask the ::tinister it i-: :":tight noe be a ~~o~ght ~o :equire a ~ur.ieipality ~~a~,befc=e ~.ey go L"lt~ a pe."1sicn plan,tb.ere be scrne eviC!!nce t..~at it l::e actua.rially sound. No-..' i! t.h,ey en-:er into or.e •,o~i-:h a prJ.vate company. ! r.a.ve no fear 3823

!:OvemZer 30,1973 '!'ape :;o. 1519 because trivaee co~panies are ;ove=neC by , ! ~~ink, ~uite effective leqislation, wi~h a super~n~end~~~ of Insurance, Mr. French; t.":.e.re is a ccm?arable official in Ott.a·N"a and ! t.~i!'l.k ~~inqs are under con col t..~ere.

So i!' a pri va -;e c:Jmpa."'l.y, ~~~ual Life, Confederation Life or one of t..~ese Feople,enters into a plan wit:..i. ttfO, tC\m of ~cunt ?eel or t.."le :own of St: • .il.nt."l.ony, t:-:,en ! do not think we need to l:.e teo .:::once:nec! because :."ley will :r.a.t:e su:9, t:he cocpany will make sure t!tere is enough r:oney eceing in to fu."lc! ~~e liabilities.

Eu~ t:..~ose are ex~ensive ~lans,as the ~nister wi!l aqree,so I •.tender if ~1-:.ere is an~· :ne:it, and ! t.."l.in..l:: ~1-:.ere is sol'!le ::-.e:it in !'ac'.: 1in ~~osir.g upon t..i.e ou.~ici~ality a re~ire~~r.: ~~ae beicre they enter into a very long-terc cont:aet:. - t.hese are ext:-ao:-dL"'l..!:/ lcng-eer.n ~ntraetsjin t.."leo::y !hey go on near enoug!'l !creve=. :-::e rule a.gains:'t ;er:;:et:uitj.es - cri'f .!..~a..'":'l.ad E:i.anc! f:om ~rand Eani:. {~!r,ThCJ:l.S) -doe:s: t..~e rule agains'e per;et".Jit.i.es apply to a conl!::-ac-:? Uo. :t vest3 l:mtediately, d~s it not?

On :~ens!on eone:ac<;.s. -::-.~: can go on !o:-ever. {!naudi!:!.el !1R. '?.CSER':'S: I have no idea, but :.:1.ey ::an go on fore•.rer and in fact t.~ey are intenCeC to gc on foreve:. -:!:e Canada ?ension Plan was ~=as~~d to go on as long as ~~ere ~as a Canada. 1 a.nd hopefully <:ha: will be a lor.;, long ':.i::e. t.o c-=~.e.

So :.s t....,ere any :nerit in reqo..:.iring mur.icipali-;:..::.es to submit scme ev!.de.nc9 to an of!ioial and :o t.'le minister that before t.''l.ey enter a. pe"si::r. plan it is a~ually sound? ! :nay see~ to be harping en a small poi~:, Cut one of t...,e t..~.ngs I have seen L~ t..~e nu=be: of years ! have =een L'lvolvec! - it is not a :nat~= of any pa_-ticular note or ae."lievemen<: on :y side-but I have ~ad an opportunity :o see t..~e pU:lic ser:ice or t..~e public affairs cf t.~is Provir~e from as many view patnts or vantage points as :::os: people ca.'"!. ever ;e~, some o.! t..~e.::t pleasa."l~ an:! scrne of t."lem u.."lpleasant, t..~ere t."ley ar:a. ·..we :-.ave .,hacked t!lrot:;gh in tt.is Province pEnsion :;?lan a£ter pension plan after pension ?lar. •.:.:;en pe~z:.cr. ~lan,and it does not cause ~e to stay up nights locsi~g sleep=~= : ~ill tell you it is a :atter t:.."lat cught to re~~ire so~e concern !:-c~ all of t.~e ;eople concerned with ~"la !in~"'l.ees o!' ~~s Province,a~C 3824

November 30,1979 Tape ~io, 1519 t:.at is t..~e eve: in.c:ea.si:.; pe::.sicn lia!::!l!tie.s. ~e ::.:.:1i.;;ter oi ?"i::.an::e {0::-.Collins), .: ::io :'lOt k::ow i! he has aver had a 'lock at it,=ut ! ~ s~e t..~ere ara sc~ projections around, down i::. 'the Cepartme~: scmewhe:e, c! what. 'Ale a:e goi~g :.c J:-.a•:e to pay out next year or L~ five, tan or fifteen years ~~n ~e :o~d in res;:ect of per.sions ':.O te.aC:.1.ers. They have asked , I think, eo ~1.d not as it now OFerates. !n respect of ~e p~lic sa:vice and all t.'leu oth.er pl.a.ns, la:ge parts cf them are beyond. t."le govern.'ne::.c' s ken. Did r.ot hydro t-..aXe a de.a.l., 3825

~ovemher 30, 1979 Tape ~lo. 1320 !lM - l MR. ROBEP.:rS: ~awfoundland and Labrador Hydro, which has its own pension plan? It has made a couple of deals wi~~ some of ics !ormer employees, 'Hiu.ch are hardly ac-:uaril? sound. They may be defensible, they may be accepcable, but they certainly are nor. actuarily sound and of course in <:."le !.ong run Cape St. !1ary' s pays tor all.

It. all comes back to ~~e one ?ro~L~cial :reasurJ. 5o ! wonder if ~~ere is so~~ merit in perhaps ~"le minister requiring ~"!at before a council enter ine.o a pension pl~~ it be actuaril? scund and ~a~ ~~ere be some demonst=3:ion of ~his. 9ecause it is too late do·Jn ~1.e road •..rl"'.en people have accep1:ed obligations, when people expect pensions, council might no1: ;.,e i!.ble ~ affcr:! them, ar:.C you :>C:'IOW '.tno is going to end U9 having co pay for :hem, do you not? ! mean tr.el:e is no ques'tion, We can say we are :;.ot Legally l:espcnsibLe Ou':. j"ou know who is going to have t.o enct up paying t..'le empLoyees :J: t.."le :own of Middle Sc:atch Tickle the pensions that they have ~o=ked for :or ~ltirt:y years and cont=i.bu'ted :or :or t.hirey years ar.cl ·o~hen ':.'1.e :..:.me comes to go t.he~t discover ~'1.at: :1iddle Scra1:ch Tic~le i.s: .:.nsolvenr:. and cannot ?a"l ':.he pensions.

So •.that about t..'1.at.? !'t.l:!.. CHA!R.>.A.AN (Baird l : and Housing. M..1:t. wr~DSO?.: The hen. !1iniscer of :1unicipal .:.=:.1i:s :-1=. Chai.rm.a.."''., :.he hon. gencle..r:nan may well ~~ow ~re about pensions t~4n Co. !1.1:1.. RCB~'!'S: I :-atow :ncre about :nose t.1.!.ngs :..1.an the hon. geneleman does. M..1:t. WINDSOR: ! doubt t..'"tat.

As I see it 1 ~1.e:e is a certain amount. of protection here in that, as the hon. gentleman said himself, a private company obviously has to - it. would. have to be a r'!gista::-ed pe:1sion ?Lan and ehere must be some prot.ection afforded by ~'1.e ;r~vincial p~nsion officer in look~ng at ~1ese ?ensions before ~~ey a:e reqiatered. M..'!t. RCB£?.'!.'5: There is no :equirernent t.h.a t any pension plan be regis~ered wi~h 'the ?rovince. The hon. gentleman and ! can for:n Windsor and Rcbert.s tomorrow and set :..:.p a pension plan. The 3S26

November 30, 1979 Tape No. 1520 only regist:=acion- MR. THOMS: 5houl.d :b.a t. not. !::e ?..obert.s and Windsor? ~. ?.OBO'l'S: No,.Win~sor and rtoberts, the !irst. shall be last. aut. tile only regist:.ra::ion of ;?ension plans ':..ltat. ! am aware of is for purposes ur~er ~~e Income ~ax Act. You get. ~~ fL~?. and ~~at. is t.he federal aut..hori l:"f and that. is a di!fere.nt !:lall of wax alt.::Jgee."ler. :-L~. 'fi*!NDSOR: What ...,.e are ealki~g about. here, I tilink, .,.,e axe t.alking about. a contract. wi~"l. eit.."l.er a ~::-ivae.e company, which ~1e hen. gentleman sai: would afford compensation - :1R.

ROBERTS: t..ltat is - ~F.. 'AI~rDSCR: And t.he other e· ... o .,...ould be .,..it..., :.>te Gove:nment: of Ca.~ada or t.i.e Prov.:..nce. So o.bviou.slr our ?ens ion pla.~s are '"'ell com:rolled. The ocher cone:ols ~o~e have, '"'e have our ::inance officers '"'ho are continuously doing s~ot checks :.n :r.u.ni::i?alit!es. The:r could ver; .,..ell, if they t..'tought. t...~ere was a reason to .~e concerned about. ~~is, ~~ey could br~~g it to ~'te ~~is:er's ae~ention ~nd t...'te :ru.nister could take some ac':..t.on t...,en to have a look at o.t.. Ct.'1er t..:O:.a~ ~:.:.at ! do not t..,ink i~ ~s a ~jor ~roblem.

The hen. gentleman's po~nt. is ..,ell '!aken. I am not. overlr concerned about ~t. have eo see as we go down t...~e road. carried. Affai:s and Sousing. .\!l HCN. ME.XBEEt: :1ft. ?..!DE:Ot;"T: :t.tt. WZNDSOR: On motion clauses 81 t..'lrough 70, Shall clauses 71 ~rough 30 ~arrt? The hon. Hinist.e.r of ~unicipal Not too :as: • Slow, You: Honou:. My colleague, t..,e ?resident of ~,e Council ,..ill be making an amendment. shortly. I would like to explain. Hen. ;ene.lemen opposi:e have .1 copy o: i:. ::t is an a..or:end..-:te!'tt ':.o ch.u:se ao - l 3827

November 30, l9i~ Tape }to. 1520 !iH - 3 ~'tt. 'ii!!IDSCR: out and the worc!s "fi•;e :nont.hs" '::;e substi:.~ted .. Sec<:.ior. SO - l, ·...-ould then ::-ead, "The council shall cause to have prepared and adopted wi::.hi!l five =on~~ of ehe end of each financial yea: a financial statement showinq a full and detailed balar.ce sheet and a s~tement of the revenue and exoer.di::.ure o! t..O,e council." As read i: was a one :non:.lt t.'ting, r :.h.ir .. l{. ~~ae wasjuse a typographical err~r. MR. CHA!FJ·tA.'I": The hen. ?resident o! t..~e Council. ~.

Chai=nuL~, : can only add to i:. !t re!lects the practicalities of li!e really because it is ve~f di!fic~lt to get a s:atement from any audi~r one mont..O, a:e.er the ~nd of ~~e financial yea:. Even fiv·e mont...~s ll'IUSt be se:etching ie 1;,l.!t we know we cannot ma.<e it. t•.Jelve mont.hs. MR. ROee..q:rs: are lawyers. ~. WINDSOR: The only people slower t..~an auditors Mr. Chai~an, '~:could jus~ cl~i!y ~hat.. We are ~oc ~al~ng abouc ~he audited scat.ement here.

We are Uilking about the financial s:.a:"ement which could be done up by ~~e :own clerk. r: is just.. a sea:emen~ o! - XP.. ?..OSERTS: day. ~hat should be done cu:ren:.. MR. wnms.:R: That. should be done wi~'li..> t."ti.ro;y ~~y of our ~~icipal~:ies ~: will not be until ~~e a~die.or comes ~n a.'ld act.ua.lly does his audit.. .. ;_...,, ROBERI'S : does not. gee st.atemencs - MR. WIN'DSCR: Anyone rur .. "ling a :::u.siness ',.;oho Seceion 86 is t."te

section which deals vieh the :i.me and compleeion of t...~e audit and gives t.."te auditor five mont:t.s to complete it. All we are saying is ~'1at t..ltis one should be t.'le Sat:'.e. :c.. ::::s.E:R'!S: I do not a:gue,bu: I oean anyboC·_r :U.."'lning a business, you know, "'ould demand a. stat.emen: '..rit:..."in thir-::y days or,in fact.,he would have his account~"lt. on the deck. 3828

Nov~er 30, 1979 Tape }to. 1520 !i}l - 4 !12.. W!SDSC?.: particularly the large:: ones, . ..,e ·.•ould indeed. 3ut: oan.y of our zuni::ipalit:ies have a par'l:-t:ime t:o-..-n =lerk - MR. ROB£.~5: Some t:.'-lings ongoing · ... e •-.~auld - MR. WI:IDSO?.: Really we are not going to set that kind of infort:~at:.ion on a monthly basis, u:tfort:unat:el:r, '""it..1. the smaller ones. ~:t. ROBERTS: Lucky to gee :.heo annuall:r i:;, some ccmmu.~ities. :1 .. 1:t.

W!!<OSO?.: Ac":uall.y i':. was int:.er.deC - it: ·...-as just: a typoq:aphicl.l error - it is int:er.ded eo be ':.1.e sa:l".e as ::.'te audita::, :.b.e tive :nont:.hs for t.":.e al.!:!it:~r because i-:. ""ill :orr.e !.n as ?ar-:. ::l:! :~e auditor's stat:.ement. MR. ROB£?.'!'5: The hen. gent:.l.e~~n's elaque~ce ~as swept: all before him, Sir. carried. on :notion clauses 31 !.lt:ough ?0, ;;ar:::..e1. 3823

:love=.be.r 30, :979 Ta~c ::o. 152:. 5;:) - l l..ec.J.'..:$<! i~ i::: a •.re:::-1 si:::,t:ole one .lr.::::, ;rou k."l.OI¥1 it does r.ot :-.eeU ::::: t:.a.k.e the ti:.le of t:1e Cccmi:.:.e.:, 7he :ton. ::'.e.':!he!" !or ::trar.:! 3.lnk. !·!?.. :.. TEO:·LS: :·!:. C.'"la.i..:::.s.:t, : raised an objection St.

JOh."':.1 S ;..c: par:.i:ul~ sec:ion, I ~auld like ~e ~i:tis:.er :o :~11 ~= whe~~e: cr noc ':..~!:! liol.Z1lity extenCs Ceyor.d :.'"le ter: c: :.."'.e pa::icular ~w:...:illcr? 'th.o! sec:.i::m i:.sel! as well ~-:.ere are certain - I d.o not know i! it is .a .:ed.ur.ci.a.ncy or 'Nh.e:..':er or ::ct. t'.!-.e :ni.'"l.i.l:er wa."\t.s t.o ;:cin:. out:. q1J.i:.e clea:ly :o a councillor ::.a:. .te is r:.ot. .::~nl: joi::t:.l'/ l.i.:t:Cle with <:.'"le ot.!",er ::o:..t.nci.:.;.o.rs. The ac't says, "!:::.:: 'J.Se: of money are personally, jointly anci severally".

Ae!.l, of course, if it is a Joint and several, ~. ~~i~ar., i't means ~~at ti'.e person is liable jointly lol'it:..'1 ~:.a ot:..'le.r councillo:s and t.hat he is liable in his own ri;he,by r~msel£,for ~~e restor~tion of t:.."le money. The word 'personally' seems to me to be -::.en ':.."'.e ::ouncillo.:s ·..;':-.o vo't.eci for ':.."'1~ -..lse of t.'"le ::or.ey ,a.r.~ ::Us l.\J.tOt'.at:ic.llly giveS an exe~:pt:icn, of C'Ot..l:':le, ':.0 COI.ll'tcillo::> .....-ho 3830

Tape :;o. 132! S:J - 2 severally liable for ~~e =es~ora~~or. of e~a~ ~o~ey :o ~~e ~ouncil. The

section also qces o~ eo s:aee that., "My ?ersor . .,h.o is ~n:.ieled to voee for councillors can t:'.ake a re~..1est. o:o CO'J.."".cil ::cnca:neC: as~ing ~o ~:i.~g an ~c~n aga~ .... st any counc~llo=s wh~ L .... ~~= l~atiliey". t...i.e aceicn on z,e:::.al! o! ~i.:r.sel!' so :.:."lat. 3..'1.:,tbociy ..,-he is e::.:,i:.led. ::o voee car. !:ring ~he action. .~.r.a t..'"l.a.t. is :!air enough. Z could ="robaZly be =ere ag=eeaCle wit..i. ~,i~ par~icular sec':.icn if it. se~ted t:~:. t..1.cre ·•as a. joint. liat.ilit;:-·.

H.;.w, as : sai.! c..a:ord, .3-nybccly who asks r:.'J opL1.ion of ··•he.t..'ler cr not t.':.ey s;.:ould be .1 c:e::,r.er o: a ::::{ advice ·...ould be no1: r-.m for councillor. :;ow 1 ! :epras:er.e an area ar.d a 383:1

No7amber 30, 1979 Tape 1522 l?K - 1 ns a ma:ter of Zac~. I :hink ~he min.is~er at th!s =cmant has to make appointments to the Ga:n.ish Town Council because ehey c.ti.led a by-election and they did not get anybod::• to offer the::~.­ selves !or COuncil. ~ow in view of Section (92) 1 ! doubt if any :u.n or woman i:1 e:Us Province who is a person of substance ,who had &.'ly :noney at:. all, who owned a house or a car or anydu.ng would offer chemselves for Council. This particu.la.r Sec't.ion should scare o.tf every man and wcman in this Province !rom seeking eleceive office to council, comur..ity or town.

And, ! ~hink ':..".at the tn.i."'l.ist::.e: should consider changL."lg this part:..icular 5ec't..ion at least agreeing to make the responsibility joint anC not joint and several. 9ecause, as I said ~eiore, ~~t in this pa:t.icular case 1where money is being expended and has t.o be :eseored 1 arA if =oney is axper4ed for a :cad system ~1at should have been expended for a water and sewerac;e system because you ehcuqht it. •..ras ocr~ i:npc:-ear.t:, ~ -;hey did nee technical.i;r ;ee t:.lote approval of :.1-:e :ninister to -::o so, the =oney can only come back by suing the councillors who so vot:ed.

As a mae:er of face, :he dec~s~on could :e !M.de to sue only one. 'lou do nee ha•te to sue .1ll o! :he :our.cillor:; •.rho vot:ed without: ~>te approval of e.."le :ninister~ 1:! one :na.."l .lS a :nan ':If subst:.ance, :hen ~>tat: one ;e.~ son can be sued, His only remedy th~"l. his only remedy is to join the ocher councillors and hope that if h2 has tc pue back SlOO, 000 oack into the cou:lcil, the."l he can get tl".a r. back frcr:l the o~~er councillors; but: he may not :e able to get it back from the other coancillors. Now I do not k:tow if that applies to the ciey of St.

John's, I do not ~"low if it applies to ~.,_e city c: Corner Brook. When ! was a member of ~"r.e Board of Regents at t..."l..e University some concern was expressed over the possible liability of members of ~1at 9ca:~. 5o the government was coneacted ar~ a sui~able amer.dment was b:ought L"l relievi."lg 'C.he me:n.bers of the 9card of Regents ar.d, !. t:hink, t.he 5e..'1ate was included in that as well, relieving e..1.e."l'' of liabilities for decisions that the: made. 3832

SOvember 30, 1979 Tape 1522 ?K - 2 :-t.r. Thoms: aut: in t.his ;art.icu.lar case we not. only hAve t:.o rely on tile reasonabilit:y of the mi.:1is1:er or the government: or t.he CabL"let:, but: anyboC.y in t!le CO!!mUniey who .i.S eneie.l.ed t.o •tote in a ~icipal election can br~~g an action under ~~s particular seceion. Now the minister :night. t.lti..~k, you know, it is qui:::e rea.sor.able ti'.At tr.onies ear=arked for a road, the pavir~ of a road, should go L~t:.o put:t~"lg in t~e wat:.e.r and sewer i.n some sec~on of a town.

The :niniste.r mighe t.hi.:tk t:.hat is quite rea.sona.ble,but: somebody L~ t.he community may nee t.."U.nk so. A.r.cl i! thAt: person ::hen makes a request: ::o council t:hat an action :e ==ought againse t~e councillors or ~he councillor - now in :ost of ~~ese :ases ~e decisl.ons are going to be colleeeive,so t...:.:.:St, you knew. l.t:. is go1ng :.o be useless really eo request the council eo bring the act:.ion 3833

:love.t:l..be: .JO, .i.9i9 ":ape :;c. !..523 SC) - are not goi..,g ::o do i.~, 5o C.:"1'1!:n :.l'l.e i;uiivic!ual =:.as :..":at ri;t-.-:. : woul~ like ~o see ~"~s :ar";icular aec:ion at :east so t:~~ ~~ere is j:..st a joi."'l.t ::es~onsi~i!.i::r. ;:ow, I ·.;culd li.'-c.a :o Je<e i':. rez..il:t ::tocii.Eied so t.ltat- you kr.ow, t..~:a ::tt.!S':. Zl~ scoe ot::her wa·h The !1inia":.er of Cor.su:::er Aff.J.irs and Envi::crM'!lent (:·trs. t!. Hcwnookl sa.:.=.

":..".a:. e~s forced ':..-.e councils :o :tave some .f!.~.3.ncia1 ::espcr.sibili-:.;:· usee.. au e ;our ely goodness ·....-e do not need to ,?Ut in an onerous are reascr.a!::le ar..d respcns~le as .:..: is. The only reason ~~at :te :Unister of Consume: Affa.i.:::s ::::n.:.ld ;iv<! '-'<'a.!i :.."'a~ i.t Eor:::ed t..1e ::OU!tcils to be financi.!lly responsible. aut:. I do :-.ot:. thi:!..i-: t:..:l.t is !hJ.:nerous provisions in <:..~is act. requi:e a t.wo-:.':.l.rd.s vot~ a.n occasion to delve i.'lto :..~e ::ity of St:..

Jof'.n's :..ct:: on t:l.a."'l.y, :::an:t oc::as;.ons ,a..'"ld I doubt ver-1 much .,.n.et."'.e.r you wi.!..l fi:;.C •:ery ::t.J.r.y ;;:revisions in :..'1at act. which says t..'"le::~ is a ::vo-t..~irds vote of cour.cil ::equi.:e;;;.. pr.i::i.leciges a.."''d res?<JnSi.bili:.ies ::o a ";owr. co:.:.:tci.l of Gra."'lC 3.!.n~: 3S34

TJ.?e :;c. l52J ot.:.e:: se-::-:.ior.::; E:J.1 basic.a!.ly is :.ha: Sar.:::. or .St. :.a.w-:u.ca cr :-UrJ:ii"tZ' .. ~. -::.at '"'e -,,.:1ve ir. :.:.><l ::it:l :~f .s:.. John's cr t.r.e city of C.;):ner srco;.:. : fl.::.C. :.~is ;,.J.ro;i.:'.l.:.u sac:.=.c::. U..'1:iuly onerous u-.d I t...:.UM our cour.cil3 ue res;cr.siCl e :o..:..--:.ci!.3 J.r.d. I c.o not t.'link it: is ::.ecessarj :.c p-;.r.e !.n a clause such as -:.his :o m.a~=· sure t."\at. :.i.ey a.ra go in<; :.o be resronsibl=. d.r. Cb.J.ir:a.::., : ·.o~c:.;.:..! l~:li: when sne s;:oke in -::o:-.. -,ect:i:l:-.

Iori:..": ::.a: ;:a.:<:...:.::;J.l.ar .:l.l..ue. ::~er~ .><iS qat to l:e scme ot."l.er rationale l:ehir.d it:. !f ~.ere i.s not, t."l.en i.t should discusseC the qualiiicaeions this ~~rninq, Clauses :.hat: =~ally wo~ld go against: :..~e la..-s o! na:.·.1ral J'.:.Sl:.i.:e,.:t. t.er.der.cy :.o .1.:::ept - ·,.,e S::l'" i-; .:... .. 3835

~ove=ber 30, 1979 T.ape 1524 EC - l :.a.c. it has 1'!0 ~o t."lrou~h. : :..'1i:-~ th.is .i.3 a bad provision. I t.h.ink. ~e m.inister should take a long, h.a.rC. look a:. it a..'td. see i! ::..'1ere. is :-..o: some ot.."ler way :.."lat. you can ;e:: ~"lis of:! :ro~ chest. a.::.out. eou.ncils Oei::.g ras?onsi..:ole. : sa'l ~"le council• ce nsponsi.J:lle 4ttd you !!a net. need a provision Uk.~ t.'l.is to give t.'le:a t:."la:. sensa of responsi.:lili t:;. !A.?.. :1. W!:-ICSO?.: t..1roug!tout indicates that ::ouncils are not res?cnsiJ:le.

That i~ jus:. e."le :cse. asinine. sta.t!!men:. ! n.a.ve '!ve:- n~a::i ca~r.e out. of :...."le :.on. gent.J.e:=tan. I :.."lou¢:.: ha h.ad a :nuc:h higher level of intelligence t."la.."l :..":.at. !:. is quite obvious that t.."lis piece of legisl.a~on th:oughout. q!..,.es e-.ore cont:ol. and ::ore aue.onor:rf eo t..'te hon. gen'l:le::.an.

Hls coll,eague a few mcmer.':.:> ago coopla.ir.ed ':...'1-at:. ecuncils haci too :nuc.'"laueonomy ~::.en 1:. comes :.o see:.ir.g u.p pensior.s ami ir:.s~.:.ra."lee ?Olic.i.oas and so !o~"l. ar.:i suggesteC. ehe ::-..:.n.iste::­ shou.l:! be giwn a eo?Y an.C shou.:.::. ~ave to aj?prov':!l .l.';. :low :.,"'!.~ ::0~. ge:1tlem.an <;urns around and says :.u.: we Co nee :."l.i.:".k c:n:.::ils are r'lspons~l.;. ! l:"'ean, t:.."1a.c is just a.n asinine s'!.ltement • .\s ~'lis pa:-:.icu.l.a.r sec-..ion relates, Mr.

Cla.i.=a..."l, t..>te hen. gent.le:c.a."l 1.s cor.c:erneci ~>tat ·Je car.. e.ake -:.;."Htse peo?le :.o cou:-:. joint.l1 mC. severally and make !.'1e:r. lJ..ab .!.e. !s :l.a t:.a.X.e a. pa::-ticular ac:.ion t.~at ·..,e s.:1ou.ld ~e ~":.e .,..hola eo...:ncil ::.o court:' T!'l.is wnele provision is here, ~. Ch.a.ir.na.n1 so t:..r.a:. an :..nd.inci::.al can ;:roee::':. hit:sel!, t.h.J.t:. if council is doing sotr.e:t..."l.i.t·~g - a.n.:i r .,..ould poin:. ol.!: :.."!.at we ue talking- about. funding under Sec:--~cn S•J, -.h.ic.."l is capit.l.l bor:owing, ".lhi..::h is approved by t.!ti.s P.ou.se o£ Asser:o.bl:r.

T!'li.s House of A.sse::-.±:~ly gives Cabinet aut:.~ori t::y to spend ca::-ta.in ::onies on capital •Jo::-ks and t.'1ey a.re t.."l.erefore cielega.t.ed :.o :nuniciva.lit.ies. Wit."!. :.."lat. kind of a d.el.egat:ion !:'Ot:. :.."lis Couse o!

A.sse!:'.bly saying :..:·U.s ~:ncney shall :Oe USI!d for ·,.,at:.er and. se\oie~a.ge i.n :..'tat :nur.i:i?alit:."!, i! a coun:il or a ntr.±:e: of cou."'t.eils ·:oca to s~end ~ac ~ney on ::-ecreacional facilit.ies or so~~~•ing else !or whJ..~~ m::~nies '*ere r:.ot. given, ! t.ltL"tk t:.."\ti!:y shoul,:; .oe a:'.s....,era.ble - aps,..:er~la ':O t..1.e people -,.,ho 110t.ed ~~etl t."'le :r.oney, w::.ic.". is t.'1is Eo\!Se of M.sser:-..Oly1 3S36

Z.l'ove:ni::er JC 1 l9i9 HR. Ii • il!:r::so R: land. Tape 1 • ~ ' -::J-'"" E:C - • The provision !'.ere for seve =a..!.ly l.!.a.i::lle provides t:lat. if there is !. vote :o 6.o t."lat. sor: o: ':..'ling, an indivi;ual onwr~ council disagrees has ~"le right to sear~ up and say, 'I wish rey negative voee recorded,' so th.a-: person .,..ill r.ot. be held liable. Ant! t: . .'"lat is precisely · ... ny i-:. is t.."lere 1 Jo -:.'lat. action Ca.'"!. ::::e innocan:. ...,ill not have Ul be ;:a..:t and .;;.arcel o! a.'"!.y legal ac:ior. on it.

Whi t:'e Say • I have a pa.rt:.ic:-.Jla.: co:~cer~ .,..it.-:. :.."'.i3 eou.ncils 1 wne:e yo'.l have !. par't;j.c'.lla ... :=ly C.i!:erent. .!iit.'J.a:.!.on :.han :,:ou just :_~~nq to f~~d t.'le situation under this ne~ ac-:. :u-: r believe i: ..... - MR, :L WI!IDSOR: I wonder if :.'le hen. me~e.r .,..o'J.l:! le~ ~ interr~7t him :or a meoen:? Under ~'lis ac: t,.'lere ~ill be no 1n0re ::omm1.4"ll. '::'f councils. :tR. ?.:OE:cu·r: There is a c:om::u:nity ce~"lci..!. 3ection here • MR. :i. iliH'OSO?.: Yes, but. ~'tat is exactl:r :.'>a sa.tr.e as a ~ council.

The on11 difference is t,.'"l.e met.'-l.ocl. of electJ.or •. Oh, okay. The poinc I ~anted to ~~~= : ~. ;.t. wr:;oso:t: Yes, as • ..,.e now /<:nC\o' t.'lec. ;..s . ..,.e new know t.."leo.. 5o <r-'lose cocmunicy meetings, -..~nere cctr::ltmities Cecide en iee!':".s o! ex;e::d.it.'.lre, 3S37

t:ovembe:: JO, 1979 }Ut., ••. WINDSO?.: !i.R. R!:lECUT: Ta?e 15:.4 '!'hat. is .ri;h-:. they will not: ~ey nave the nave cc Co -=..1.at.. . ...,. aut::.or:..t.ies tCW"n oouncil3. it is only a Ci!!e.rence !.n elec'tior..

The only "" - 3 as cii!fe.re:nce in a t:own coun.cil and a cotru:tu.'li't.y counc::.l, lik.e .t J\.:5~ expla.ineci to the hen. genela:nan, Cecause he is goi..'lg on the ..,rcn; ~ack, I t:..1.ink,even -=bou;-h his poi01twas valid, under t:..'l.e olC. sys-:.em it ·.,ould be va.li.:i, but t.:.."lder :...'lis syst.em ~he only di!fe.rence bee• ... een a t::oWn cou.'"l.cil and a coc:::nm.it.y council is -=.."\at. i.ns-:.eaci of se<:.t.ing U(:l a full election ?roced.:.:.re wit.."\ Oallot boxes and enumerat.in; :: . .'-.e municipal! -:.y a.nd ::h.at sor:: of e.l-tinq, ::.here would. oe an ele~-i.o:t at a ?ublic meeting.

Th.is would be for the si:Ia..!.ler co=t.:..'li '!!.as. 'nu~re is no di.St.l-"tc'tion at. all Oe::.ween a town cou.t1cil and a o::ot::::~U."U':.Y council exce?:: for -=:-;.a::, a..nd :..'l.e:-e has bee!'\ some objec':.l.ons :aisa=. in the debau on second reading -:o t:.'lat.. To answer :b.e point,first. of All, clearly

Section 266, I ~~ink it is, points out ~~at elec:ions !or communi~/ co~~cils are by secret ballot a: a ?cblic :neet.ing.

I! somebody L3 concerned .ohy they c:a.nnot have a f'.J.ll ~leccor:. procedure, well t-~ey can. :! a eo:nmu.'li ::.y is t..~at concerneti ,we will call the:n a tcwn L"tStead of a co::ununit.y council, it rea.lly does. r.ot ma.t:.t:.er. .-.:. is only a provision t.here so t:.:1.at ·,;e ·.rill not. p!.!t:. t."'.eo t.~rough ~~a::. expense if it is felt by ~~em t.~at i:. is ~ot ~ecess~f. new provisions i..~ t.he act .though, the ccl!':u."ti::j.es t.:..'lder ~::::muru::.y councils will still have eo have :..~ei.r a.nnual ~et.ing. ':'!"ley still have to ha~,o·e a.n a.r.nual. meeting at least once a year? M?..

N. ~o~t:~nso R: ewo years. XR. ?..:O~Ct'i.': Now, if a e. t.1.e an!'lual. meeting, t:hat funds, ~es, and t.'l.ey are elec~e: only for They a.re elected :or only ewe years. the public :::eet::..ng ~es a Ce-:isicn 3838

~love:r:ber 30, 1979 Tape !to. 1325 GH-1 !1.":!.. ::U:DSCtr:': al :..l;.cugh t:.."tey haC !::eer.. p:-oviCeC !or a.r.ot."ler pu:?Qse; the ?liblic :lake a C.ecision i.n a public :neet.i.ng t..~ar:. t..,ey wane to spend them at. somet.i.ing ehe, and community councils a=e pret.~/ well governed ~y the feeling ~~ae comes cue of, ~i.e dire~tion :h.a:: comes out of those public meeeings 1 \oiOul.:!

Clause 92 t:.."ten apply co 'the councillor3 in ~"tae particular si~uation, 10u know, if ~~e di.rec~on and the decision came !::om t..i.e public meet.i.ng, :he annual general meecing, rat.i.er t.i.an from a normal, ordinarf meet~ng of ~ouncil? That is, really, t..i.e .:rueseion ::..i.ae I want to ask t:.."le m.inisee::. !-t.'q, CP".A!!t!Wl: (Baird} and Housing. ~~:P~9_P:: The hon.

Minist.er of M~~icipal AZ!airs The ~on. gentleman missed t..~e ;oint t."lat I was making, eha: t."te budqet of a communit'l council is not: approved ae a public ~et~"lg anymor~. !t is app~oved by the council and expenditures are approved. They operate exactly as a eown. This sys~em. ·.thereby ·..,..e had a commur..l.:'l cou.-1cil who had eo have a ~udgee approved by the :own, is eotall:· unworka.Qle. 'Ne had a situauon eight: ~ne..."ls ago where th.e com:nuniey council ·.tas in disfavour in ::..~e communle.y. The ?eople in e...'"le cotnmu."liey fele t.1.ae t.hey should be dismJ.ssed and wan<;ed -:hem. ::. resign.

They refused to res1gn. There was ~o reason ~~at. qovern:ene could dismiss the council, ehey had not done any~1.i~g t.1.at. ;.·as - you know, :...,_ere was no gross :nismanagemer.e or :nisappropria"C.ion of funds, there was no reason t.hat gove:::unent. would dist"'iss t...'le council. The people of the comm.u.:1ity '"'ere just:. ~ot. happy wi~'1 ::hem. The only answer we could give them, ''Well, you have to a•Nait. til election day". Well, t.'1.ey said, "Fine. we just. 'Hill noe approve a budget for t.his year", which is totally unworkable.

I did not. have the powe:: to dismiss t:...'lem because I did ~ot have good reason. The people in t.i.e municipality had no mech~~ism to ask theo ~o - :he1 could ask them to ::-esign but if they refused ~ltere '"'as no ot.."ter :nech~"''.is:n oj?en to t.'lem. And t:..'ley would nee a;?prove a budget, so t:.."ley did ::ot ha•te any money to spend. I mean, t:.here was just a C.eadlock. !'or~unately, we •,o~orked !.'1: cut:.. You know, '.Je were ai:lle t:.o sit. down 3839

~vember 30, 19i9 'tape No. 1525 GH-2 wi~~ boeh sides and sor~ ehe ~~ing ou~, Put i~ is jus~ a totally untenable si:~ation. So, ~~a~ will be c?an;ed under ~~is ?revision so ~~at cornm~~ity co~~cils operate exac~ly ~~e same ~ay as :!. t.own cou:'l.cil and t.1-te budget is set by t..~e cou.~cil and e_x;;lenses a.re approved by the council, so, you k."low, they are lia!'Jle 1 they have :.."l.e same liabilities as the council. MR. CHA!E!'.fAN: (Bairdl !-!.R. THOHS: The hon. member for Grand Sank. Mr.

Chairman, I was wondering if t.~e minister is L"l a position where he could answer the ~uesti~n t.~a~ : posed at t..~e beginning, whe~~er or ~oe t..~ere is a si~ilar ;revision in the City of St. ~or~·s Act and ~e Ci:y of Corner Srock Act. ~.!t. 1ri!N'OSOR: : do not. k."low, :-1:. Chair:r.ar. • I can check i ': out for you, if you li:.te. 3ecause if t..~ere ~s not, then this discr.:.:ninat.es against the other councils. =~ should be governed by the same (inaudible). !-!..-::t.

W!NDSCP.: I can address -:_.~a~. a."ld I <:.~ink it has been L"ldicated ~o bo~~ cities • in fac~, : me~ wit:. ~~e City of Cern~: arock last night - that :na."ly provisions of :.~is act:, wh.i.cb are not in eheir ac~s, i~ will cer~ainly be our inten':ion ~o discuss bringing ~~e~r acts :':lOre closely .:.n line with t.hi::>, which i.s now, I -:."'.in.'-', t:..~e latest, mos.: up-':.o•date st.atement of t.ne ?rovince as t.o how :nunici.pal!::ies should be operat.ed.

I. think many of ::.'1e provisions of ::.."I.e o.;o ciey acts Nill be amended .:.n t.l::ne 'Co come i::. li.."le ~l.~'1 :..'"lis, and ·:.his :nay well Oe one of t.'1em. It is something t;ha't. we ·,.ill be discussing wi-:!1 them. MR. CiiURHA .. ~: an amend.t:ten t :o :ttake '? ."i..~. WI!'IDSOR: Ooes :.he ?resident of the Council ha•re :1r. Chairman, i!

I ceuld, Clause 9~ is a rat..~er simple amendment, si-~ly inser~ng at t:.."l.e beginning of the clause t.~e words 'subject. t.o .Section 413' , so t."l.at the clause ·...-cul=. now read, ''Subject: to Sect.ion 413, the Council ::tay ?aY out: of t.he fu."'l.d3 at it:s ~sposal salari~s or remunerat.ion ~o counci~lors, of!icers, 3840

~lovem.ber JO, l9i9 ':ape ~o. !.S25 ~H-3 :ut. WINDSOR: audi :.ors and employees of t."le council .!nd all tb.e ot:.~er expenditures incurred in ehe e..'Cecution o: t.he ::ewers and duties vesud ~y t..lll.s act or any ot.."ler law in the council, subject to t.;,ere being !. provision !or such an expenditure in t.."le adopted budget or revised budget". aasically, Sir, al! that does is ensure t..~at payments to salaries - ~~is clause as it relates to payments to salaries is done in accordance wi~~

Section 4lJ wh~ch :ontrols and regulates :hat. ~y colleague will move t.~at amendment. I hope. On motion, Clause 96 as amended, carried. 100 to 110 (inaudible). !9.. ';ol~IDSOR: There is an amendment eo Clause 1-JO whi::h my colleague •..r:..!.l move, and it says, "Add as a sub-clause (iii) 'where a eax is i~osed or varied a!ter three mont.~s of t."le commencemene of a !inancial year, it shall not eake effect until ~e beq~~~ing oi ~~e next succeeding !inancial year unless a l4ter dace is set :~rth under sub-sec~on (!.l '".

In -:lehe.r -..;ords, if t.h.e eouncil has not set t.."-leir tax date at the end of t..~e t..~ird month of t..1.e fina..~cial year, t:hen J;.1.ey -:a.."''noc set a ~ax race !or :.hat year \1/hich ·..ras at. 'J"aria."".ce t.::) ";..1.e tax rate the ?receding year. !hat is in t..,ere to ?r-:ltec~ ~uS~"''esses and persons, I suppose, particularly those who have rented ?roper~~es or busine;o:ses or whatever, ;.oho have entered into cone acts for the year so t..1.at in the ~ddle of ~~e year t..~e tax rate is noc varied. !offi.. CHA.:.? .. "'..AN: (Bai::d} X..~. THOMS: On motion, :lause 100 as amended, ca:rieC.

On ~tion, Clauses 31 ehrough t.o 100, Shall Clauses lOl t.~rough to 118 ~arry? The hen. :ne:n.ber from Grand Sa."''k. !tt. Chairman, I just. '.43.l'lt to :nake 3841.

November 30, 1979 !'ape ~o. 1526 GH-1 MR. THOMS: some of my colleagues over here have somet..l-ting to say~ a.boue <:.h.ese real pr:Jpert:.y tax clauses. SUt. I mentioned t.."lls as well t...'le oc.l-ter day and t:lat is

Section lOS, ·..;here, you know, you are basically let~~g council actually make profit on arrears of taxes. There are a lot of people L~ c.l-tis Province who a.re going to be in arrears of t~~:!:o. That is C{'...tite evident from •hat: came out in :rent of PAC where the Province is SlO million b~~ind in arrears of retail sales tax. I would lLke to see this modif~ed in view of ~e high pri~e rates at t..'le bank today.

Z am not saying that interest should not be charged on ar:-ea:s of taxes, but., you know, ~asically what: ~an be said is ~~at for everJ doll~r ~'lac is outse1nding in taxes, this is cos~ng the council c.,e dollar plus the interest t..~ae t..~ey are paying at c.~e ?rime ra~e ~r prime plus one, ~ut 3, I t.'link, 3 per cen~ above ~~e pri.me .::.:~.::..'! ttl~' Ce a lit.t:le oner::.us. ! would like t.o see it where ~~e rate of interes~ can be charged on arrears at :he prL~e r~ee ot interest charged by the chartered banks.

Ckay? ~ow, ~'le pr~~e :-ace is - I do no~ know exac~ly wr~t. it is ac the moment.1 16 per cent. or 15 pe::- cent - buc I ~an it:. is reallY U? t.'lere.

Then, to pu~ another J per cent. en top of c.~e 15 or 16 per cent, you are i~ ~~e 20 per cent. bracket, md. it. makes no difference. 'lou can make t!le in~eraso::. rat.e on over-:i'.l.e accoun~s 30 pe: cent, but if somebody on a fixed income in a smaller community where you cannot afford to pay his taxes, or he gets L~ arrears ~~d £inds that he canna~ gee ~ut. of debe 1 then he has 18 per cent being added on eo :.his every monc.'l, the~ a..re a lot cf ~~em could be in a ~osition where they would never get caught up on e.'1eLr t.a.xes.

Really, wha<:. you are doing is you are ~ing ~he council tte banker, ar~ you ~ct.: You a~e making ~"le ::ou."l.Cil ~"l.e banker, are '/CU not? :t..!t. THO.."!S: Well, ehis section, you know, does ehae, dees i~ not? All I am arguing aga~nst, really, is ~~e ?ri~~ 3842

~ovember 30, l9i9 Tape No. 1525 GH-2 KR. '!.'HCMS: s: lus ch.ree which puts i ~ in 3. 20 per cent- I mean, goodness gracious, :do not =har;e ~~at for =oll~c~ions, You know, as a lawyer rarely would I charge a 20 per cent fee !or collection. !>lR. WINDSOR! get prime rate - MR. THOMS: {Inaudible) council is ~~at I can No, no, ~~ey are not going ~c gee prime rate, there is no doubt about ~~at, aut all ! am saying is ~~at prima plus ~~ee - I think they '"'ill gee :.·"'o po1.nts al:love pri:ne wi-:.hout "l.n" .,roOlems or one point. above prime. DR.

COLLINS: ~o you think this 3 per cen~ in chere for processing ~~e account, really, i! ~ey just charged prime race, it is just the s~~ as $aytng t~ere is no loss in monies. r me~,, it is JUSt zero money. I mean, if 3 per cent is to process ~~e overdue - MR.

THOMS: Qh. :'10, r mean, ~,_e only ad.d..:.eional processing account - if ~,e matter haci to go to court, and t~en cou.~cil woulC nee qet i~s coses !or ~~ae par~ o! i~. ~,d ~,ere is no~ too cuch in the ~ay, : would not ~hink, c: processl~g, l~ tr.is case, i:l most: of our smaller commu.nie.:.es. 'lou ~Glow, 3. lo~ of people are ;oing to have a tough ei:ne making ~hese pa•r.nen::s on ?roper<:.y taxes as it is, wit:.houe ;u~<:.ing what I consider to be overly burdening ~heo. 1-, connection wi t.h the ~ollec:eic.n ot ?rope:::"{ ~a.:<es. : . .,auld llica -:o see some consideration given t.o - ~aybe the seceion could re.!d 'ea--r{ a:: rears 3843

NOVember 30, l979 Ta.pe No. 1527 IB-1 M..T:!.. Tl!:OMS: ae the rate at which c.~e council borrows from the bank.' Okay, ~ow if ~~t is 16 per cent 1 that is what is :hargeci on the account, or i! it is 18 per cent of 19 or 20 or whatever c.~e case might be~ A.'l !iON. ME.\!BE...~: MR. THOMS: MR. WINDSCR: on trAt. First of all - "1.tt. CSAIR."LAN (BA!..ttDJ : a.nd Housing. MR. '.i!NDSOR: Just as long as it ~pplies. Yes. P.r. Chairman, I 'NOUld li.l<e to coreme.ne The hen.

Minister of Municipal Affairs - if a taxpayer · ... ent down ::o simpsons Se.a:s and brought a f:id.ge he '.o(OU.ld be payi."l.g probably :ncre than this. !-m. THCI-'.S: They -are gougers. !1.1l. ",HNDSOR: They are gougers or <~h.atever you wa!le to call :.hem, But the fact is t.hat: if there is gcJ.ng ::a be .,.., !.."lcenti•te for a person to pay eheir taxes on time,which they should or otherwise, as the b.on. gentie.man points oue, t."le munici?al.i:.y !las to bo::-row t..•tat. money and to pay interest on it. And fine, the municipality ~ay be pay~ng prioe plus one or two per cent, ie m4Y b~ more.

It depends on ~~e circumscances of ~~e munieipal~ty. so I do net see :hat it: is an onerous bu-.-den. I t.hink it. is t.he.t:e i..."t the inee:-es":s of t!le murucipa.lity. ! 1o10uld llle to just. -;ni!l.ke 3. co:=ent 1 i! I could 1 by the way of reverting for a mcm~"l.t :o some ;oints the b.on. gentieman ...,as :nakitl.g a :ncment ago on t.he joi::t:ly and severally Ua.hle, a."l.d I jus~ point:. out ~~t ~~t:

section is JUSt a repeat cf wt"~t has been in t.he act since l9i2. And I am ac!vised as well t.hat t..."te ewe cities have the same provision in <:hei: acts. M..=t. R!D£CUT ~ M.r. Cba.ir.nan. The hon. :embe: for aaie verte-Whita Bay. It is only 100 to llO is it? M:. Chair:nan, wne:. I spoke i!l this debate on t!le ~rinciple of t~e ~ill tr.e ocher day,! ~e some ccmrr.enca with regard :.o the mandato~f property tax,

section 109 and llG I Celieve deal •..-ich that:. :-.ow. r liseened Ver'J carafully ~o~hen t.i.e minister made his 3844

NOVember 30, 1979 Tape No. 1527 !3-2 ~!R. :tiDEOUT: response in winding ·up the debate on ~e ;trinciple of t.he bill, a:1d he was veri careful to go down tr~ough the comments of practically all members who spoke in t..'"te debate. I do not know if he ran out of ti:=e, although we gave him leave, but. he d.ij not get to me at. all. Ma. WL'lDSOR: o'clock. MR. R!OEOUT: ! ran out. of time, : ran out. at six You ran out at six o'clock. I made scme ;oint.s then th4t the !:ti.::lister did :'l.Ot: respond to and ! had to 'Z.ake tho! oppor-:.unit.Y now in Ccmmit.t:ee ~ mUe some of ~:,em ~gain.

If a community, ~y c::~unity in ~~is Province,wishes to impose a property t::.L.'C, a tax on real property Ln the municipalit;,· then, .1-'.r. Cha.~n, ! ceruin..ly have no objection t::o it.. aut what I de object to and oCject. to very suongly and st=enuously is e...:,e forced imposition of a prope:'ty eax by the government, by the ad.oinisca:.icn, on comnun.ities in t..."l.is Province '"it:hout. th.eir havir.g any say in t..'1e matter at all.

Now ! suppose it can be argued t.~t comnunit.ies •..;ho will be looking £or new water l!J1d sewer se=vices •ill have a.."l opport.ur.i::y <:o spe.tk i.r. t.ha.t. t.hey ~ill have ~ l.imio;ed opport:J..ni-::y t.o speak because ~~e gove=rment. will Oe able e.o say to them, Unless you impose the real proper<:y ux you may as •ell t.a.ke your Z:l4g ar.d go :-.cme, -...e cannot di.scuss it any fu:t.."'ler.

Tf'.a.t. is forced put. in a .. :tot.he..r '"'ay1 but: di.:.fe.ren:. -::ha.r. t..":ac, Si.r, a..re the communit.ies ..,he now hAve a • .,.ater and sewer 3:f3te.":l in place under guaranteed loans !:om t.~e ?rovi.:tce, '""i.!.l have no oe.por'::u..ni>;·f to spea.k what:soever because ~'lis act ~r.akes it 4.bundant.ly clear, clear beyond any doubt: 1t.hat ~~ose communities have to put in place immediately a real property tax. There is no way £or consultation. There is no way !or the ~payers of ~~e communit.y ~ speak ~~ sa~ We want it ~'1is way.

The government unde.rclauses 109 and 110 will just for~e prope.r-:.y 'tax down t.,_e threats of ::he taXpayers in ever/ caMI.unity L"l this Province that. !-.as now in place a.r.d wa'ter and sewer syste!:l. The taxpaye.rs of Englee or Seal Cove or r..ascie who had wae.er and se...,.er systems ?Ut: i.:t ten or fi!':ee.n ;·ears ago, and I ~ssume are~~ some sort of pa:nnent3 on the :inanc~al .3845

November JO, 1979 Tape No. 1527 !.B-3 !1R. RIDEOL'T: arran;emencs,will have no choice. !1R. MARSHA.t.L: ;.. point of order, !-tr. Ch.air:tlan. A point. of o.rde.::. The hen. PresiCene of the council. P.R. MARSHALL: I am :ising on this point of order for your consideration. The hon. gentleman is debatwg what his impression is of t:he !arced ~ropert.y tax whicb. we heard about in second reading. Now it is not. forced property eax. n~er one. The

section relates to the i:t:position of t.u: where SO per cent of the residents have water ar.d sewerage ser-..rices. !'low th.i.S was de!::lated at lenge.lot, Mr. Chai..."'man, in second reading a."ld '"'he..'l the bill ....-as adopted be.fore ~1e House i ': was ado~ed ~n ?rinciple. When it was adopted in principle~ would suggest that ~~s was one of ~e ma~ prL'lciples of ~1e ~ill 1 3846

November 30 1 1379 Tape ~to. 1528 GH-l MR. ~~nAL.L: and 1!. haseen to ,add, not as defined i:ly the hon. gent:.leman, forced property tax, !:;)ue ,.,.here t.."'le ser,ices a.re SO per cent:.. ~tow, t do not wish to cur~ail debate, but ! do suggest co you ~~a: a debate ha~~ng once already occurred in second readL~g, ~~at ~,e purpose of ~h~s Committee is to consider clause by clause. ~~d. for example, i= ~~e hen. gentlaman in addressing h~elf to

Section llU wanted to look 3t it and say th.at t.he t.ax should not take -:tffect: ·..men assessments are completed unde: the Assessments Act - that:. is a -!eca.il - 1..t should. take affect ~n ~~ot..~er area, but ! ~hi~~ that it is really out of order at this ti:ne to debate. I realize he might ''"'ant t:.o touch a little bit on it:, but: any extensive debat.e on c1 matter that is ::-eall:; the principle of ~~e bill that has been aCopted in second readi~g. HR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chai~, to ~at point. ot order.

Cer-~in~y, Sir, thac muse be ~,e most: specious paine of orde~ ~~~c ! have ever heard raised in ~~e time ~~ac r have se~~ed in t~is House. Clause :10 deals with ~~e mandatory imposicion of a :eal ?rcper:y tax, and ! was making my :emarks along ehose lines. I •..rou.ld sU.:::mi t -:o Your Honour ~~at ~~ere is no point of orde:, it is JUSt a poL~t ?f nonsense in an ef=ore to cue off jebate. MR. NE.AP.Y: bet:ween t·,..o mu.berz;. MR. P...!DEOU""'I': Cec3me C~airman - MR. CHA:?l·!A.N: (Baird) MEL NEARY: A difference of opinion, ~~. =~~n, ! had to lea:n a few rules when - Mr. Chairman, to that point of order.

The hon. member for La~oLle. M.r. Chairman, t.he Government House Leader se~s hell bent this session of