Manitoba Hansard — 9 May 1977 (Sitting 56B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-56b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION - THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth 11 Pu blished under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker VOL. XXIV No.56B MONDAY, MAY 9, 1977 8:00p.m. Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

TIME:S:OO p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Monday, May 9, 1977 CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIM ATES - LEGISLATION CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Order please. We have a quorum gentlemen, the Committee will come to order. I would remind honourable members that we are in Committee of Supply. Members should address their remarks to the Chair and refer to other members by their constituencies and would refer honourable members to Page 2 in their Estimates Book. Legislation, Resolution No. 1, Other Assembly Expenditures (

a) Leader of the Official Opposition- pass; Resolution 1 (b)Leader of the Second Official Opposition Party-pass; Resolution 1 (c). The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Just a question for clarification under the heading of the Leader of the Second Opposition Party. Are we actually paying $6, 000 in this category towards that particular office? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, the answer is no. it's being voted as a contingency and I might say as an attempt at humorous aside that one never knows what could happen in the contingency, but no, it's voted and if not paid it lapses. And it was not paid last year and presumably, for this calendar year, would not be paid either. Nevertheless, we ask for it as a contingency. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 1 (

c) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, there are certain responsibilities that we delegate from time to time through various forms of legislation which deal specifically with the Manitoba Legislature and I'm thinking of one particular position that we have assigned, and in that assignment we have said that person must report to the Legislature and yet we find there is no place that we have allowed him to make that presentation other than his annual report. I am referring to the position of the Ombudsman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

I think the honourable member would find that under Resolution 3 on page 3. MR. GRAHAM: Very good. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: The question I would like to ask is: I felt that it had always been assumed that the Leader of the Opposition and his office carries with it a responsibility that is comparable to any Cabinet Minister.

I think that is really the criteria by which the Leader of the Opposition's position is being held at least in the House of Commons, and it has been regrettably somewhat less than that in the Province of Manitoba for a good number of years and I'm certainly not blaming the present government for that attitude. I think it's something that has been handed down for a good many years, a downgrading of the Leader of the Opposition's office.

Even today, notwithstanding many of the improvements that have been made, notwithstanding many of the - I shouldn't use the word concessions because it's really not a concession - notwithstanding many of the additions and improvements that have been provided for the Leader of the Opposition's office, does the Premier feel that today we still have some way to go in providing for the Leader of the Opposition and his office a comparable staff to what is currently held by the Ministers of the Crown. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I do agree in broad principle.

I'm wondering if the Member for Morris is perhaps under the impression that there is a differential in pay. In fact, the pay is the same as the Ministers. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I'm not talking about the pay. That that has been a standard thing for a number of years. What I'm talking about is staff and accommodation. MR. SCHREYER: Well, I think I would have to admit that there is some way to go yet perhaps, but there has been on the staffing and administrative clerical side, there has been an increment of one staff man year last year and one this year.

Now the one this year is already either put into effect or is about to. So there is two additional staff in the last 12 to 18 months been added to my knowledge. MR. JORGENS ON: I'm aware of that and I want to tell the First Minister we appreciate that, but I think there are still one or two steps to make.· MR. SCHREYER: Well, then if the honourable member is perhaps thinking of physical space, I'm on less sure ground there because I suppose the physical quarters could be perhaps somewhat larger. But staffing is gradually being improved; physical quarters gradually, maybe not quickly enough.

The only other thing - for what it's worth- is the right to use an automobile, but I assume my honourable friend isn't referring to that. MR. JORGENSON: No, 1 would be quite happy to forego the use of an automobile, but I do think that the use of an Executive Assistant for one thing and office facilities that are commensurate with the position that the Leader of the Opposition holds would be not out of line with what we find in other 2817

Monday, May 9; 19 77 jurisdictions and particularly in the House of Commons. MR. SCHREYER: I must confess I'm not aware of what is available in the way of -and I guess it could be important - of Xeroxing facilities and the like. I suspect that is where there is the greatest single area for improvement. Staffing has been improved. Executive Assistant per se, I sort of assume the office does have that whether a direct arrangement, not paid by the Crown, well but through the caucus funds. MR. JORGENSON: The caucus fund is earmarked for research, not the Executive Assistant of the Leader of the Opposition.

I think the Premier has to admit that in his own caucus the caucus funds that are paid to the members of the NDP caucus do not go towards paying the Executive Assistants of the various Ministers. MR. SCHREYER: I think you've identified three points where we can look. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIV AK: This was brought in I guess under Salaries, under (c) . In terms of what is now being provided as opposed as to what was provided before, there is a world of difference and improvement. There is no question about that and that one has to recognize.

The problem is fundamentally the use of two things - the money that is available for the caucus in its application for the normal research that the Leader of the Opposition's office would take and its use rather than for the use of the caucus. Then that leads into the other problem which is the problem of research for the indiv idual caucus members whoever they may be, whatever caucus that may be and leads fundamentally into another problem and I raise it now if it should be discussed now. But, if it's not to be discussed now I would want to know where we would have a chance to discuss it. MR. SCHREYER: Namely?

MR. SPIVAK: Namely under the general heading of the public funding of elections or a partial funding of elections which would also be a partial funding of the constituency responsibility. Now they are two separate things, they're distinct, they're not the same, but it would appear to me that there is a need to have some discussion. There is a constituency allowance provided for under the statutory requirements and that's indicated here. That is one thing, one aspect, but that really is presented to each member and he appl ies it as he sees fit.

There's no obligation to prove how he spent that money or what he has done with that money. lt really is si mply added to the indemnity and added to the allowance and I have no doubt that most members spend that money one way or the other on any num ber of things that they are required to do or in the normal course of their legislative year they would use it for either research or for reporting to their constituency. lt would appear to me that there is a need for something more than what we have today. I don't know whether government will be providing it in this Session or not.

But whether it provides it in this Sess ion or not I think fundamentally we have to start talking about that, because I think realistically the requirements and the obligations of being able to meet the constituency needs, the abil ity to be able to understand what is happening within the areas which we represent, to be able to translate the general feeling and attitudes to specific issues and to the general pressures of the day whatever they may be with respect to policy decisions and the formation of policy thatthere is a further requirement that is required and there's a greater funding that's needed to be able to allow that.

Being a Member of the Legislature in effect is becoming a full time job for anyone who really wants to apply their talents and it's not just confined to those who are in governmentin governmental responsibilities. You cannot cope with the tremendous number of requests for help and assistance, the problems that people have with government at all levels and the general necessity of trying to provide a service.

Now that really is distinctive to the issue of public financing of elections because that comes into another issue which I'm prepared to talk about, but there is somewhat of a relationship in terms of the legis lative respon sibil ity that a person has and the . ability for him to be able to carry on his functions, to be able to maintain another source of income if it's required, particularly if he uses any part of his income that he receives here, for the servicing that I've sugge sted.

I believe that that's really happening in a lot of cases, and I think that there are hardships; and I think in addition it prevents some who may very well have the desire and incli nation to run for office, from running for office. And in an attempt at least, to try to provide a better opportunity, I think that this issue at least can be brought into question, and the matter can be discussed. Now if it's not appropriate to discuss it - I've already opened it, but I haven't discussed it fully - I'd like you to tell me where we can discuss it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR.

SCHREYER: Wel l, there are two parts to what the honourable member is talking about. One has to do with public funding of elections, and that I think would be directly relevant and appropriate when there is a bill coming forward, having to do with amendmen ts to the Elections Act; there it would be directly relevant, with respect to ...

I'm not sure I could pinp oint it that well, but I think the honourable member is referring to special allowance for members as MLAs in their respective constituencies, they're under 3( a), Admittedly it's statutory; but there's an amount of $900 per member, and I'm not suggesting that's adequate, but there has been no strong pressure; in fact, I think 1 could say, there's been no consistent pressure or suggestion that that should be substantially 281 8

Monday, May 9, 19 77 increased until now. MR. SPIVAK: lt's my belief that there is a need. I think there's a reluctance on the part of members to deal with anything that's really going to affect their salaries or the moneys that are available or payable to them. I think that's been a general concern by all members. The constituency allowance that's now provided is something that's really relatively new. But there are really expenses I think can be pinpoin ted by any kind of study that would be undertaken with respect to constituency responsibil ity and servicing the constituency by members.

Obviously in the more remote areas, in the northern areas, in the larger geographical areas, those costs are substantially higher even though there are other all owances that are available.

The reality of this problem, there's far more that's required in terms of the abil ity to be able to service the constituencies and, as I'm sugges ting, I think there's a recognition that it's almost a full time job and it doesn't follow that an increase in in demn ity is required; there's been a provision for cost of living increase in that, as much as a need to recogn ize that part of the costs of being an MLA are costs that are attendant in carrying out that responsibility which in many cases are taken right out of the sums that members have received for the indemn ity.

Part of the election costs that members have also comes from part of the money they receive through an in demnity - the provision for it- in some cases it does not, in some cases it does. I think there is a need for an improvement in this and a need for a recognition for the change. There has been an evolution in relation to recognition of responsibil ity and the costs attendant to it and the need for change and I think there's still a further change that has to take change. MR. SCHREYER: I'm not necessary arguin g the point.

I would think that this is something that really could be changed best, if at all, by amendments to the Legislative Assem bly Act because when it says here that it's statutory, that it really is referring to that particular statute. And I admit, it's not on an automatic index and perhaps that's a problem. lt requires deliberate change from time to time. Maybe next year is the time to change it. No pun intended. MR. SPIVAK: I've al ready said it with a smil e, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, my concern is somewhat along the same lines alt hough I have to admit it is registered in our book on probably the next page where we find under "Executive Council" the registration and election falls under the purview of the Executive Council. I have always felt that elections and the administration of such should qu ite properly fall under the purview of the Legislative Assembly and I was just wondering if this was a printing oversight or what was the reason for it coming under Executive Council rather than the Legislature. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell perhaps has a good point. The only reason why it appears under Exec utive Council, which I admit is perhaps no more logical, perhaps even less logical than under Legislation, is that until World War 11, the elections were run by the Clerk of the Executive Council. Hence it was put in the Executive Council. lt is one of those few things that remains entirely historical as to why it's that way.

If I could be assured that there was no great administrative legal problem in transferring it to Legislation, perhaps we could accommodate you right here and now. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman , I believe the Chief Electoral Officer is a servant of the Legislature, is he not? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, but I'm giving you the answer as to why it's here. lt's been here because of events in the 19 30s. lt has never been changed and frankly we haven't thought to change it either. Call it an oversight if you will. MR.

GRAHAM: This brings me into the su bject matter that has concerned me for quite some time and that is the office of the Chief Electoral Officer in the Province of Manitoba. At the present time our Chief Ele ctoral Officer is also another servant of the Legislative Assembly and we do know that there are times when that dual role does cause some concern and in fact does put a great deal of pressure on a particular individual.

I'm just wondering if the First Minis ter and in fact all Members of the Legislature had really given any thought to establishing qu ite firmly and clearly two separ ate offices - that of the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly and a sepa rate office for that of Chief Electoral Officer. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I would have to admit that for a period of time every so often, there is a very considerable pressure on the Chief Electoral Officer.

The problem, however, is that that function does dovetail rather nicely with other duties because for long periods oftimethere is no express duty or work for the Chief Electoral Officer to carry out. So it's a difficult problem un less one is prepared to justify a Chief Electoral Officer - which is by definition a se nior position -w hich would for three-quarters of the time or more be really without continuin g daily duties. So that's the other side of the problem. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, again this leads us into a debate, I believe, which has surfaced in this Chamber and Committees on other occasions and that is dealing with the whole question of a permanent Electors' Roll, the maintenance of a roll of electors that is constantly updated and ready at 281 9

Monday, May 9, 19 77 any given time for use. In other words, a permanent voters' list. I think that this question has been kicked around in the Chamber and in Committee for various periods of time on numerous occasions. 1 am one who has acted at one time as a Deputy Returning Officer and I think I know there are certain benefits to be gained from maintaining a permanent list of voters. I think it has a definite merit and I would just like to hear the views of other Members of this Chamber and members that are present here today on the merits of the maintenance of a permanent voters' list. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please. If the honourable member wishes to pursue that matter, I wonder -if he would bring it up under the proper resolution, Resolution 7 under Exec utive Council. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I wasn't sure whether the Premier's suggestion had been immediately implemented, that we could deal with it under "Legislation." If that is the case then we can deal with it now, but ifwe are not, then of course the discussion is entirely out of order because this comes under the Ex ecutive Council when we are dealing really with Legislation at the present time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Chair likes to be as lenient as possible, but if there is going to be a protracted debate I would sugg est it comes under the proper heading. MR. JORGENSON: I have no objections to the debate continuing now, ali i want to make sure is that we don't duplicate it again later on. MR. CHAIRMAN: That is the reason why the Chair requests members defer until the proper place. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russel l. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, in all due respect, I have to say that I don't feel that it is a proper function of the Executive Council, I think it is a proper function of the Legislative Assembly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, like you, Sir, I am quite agreeable that it be discussed under this heading as long as it isn't then discussed again under the other. But the Member for Morris has offered correct technical advice that since it is in the other appropriation that we discuss it there. MR. GRAHAM: Very well, Mr. Chairman, I'll defer. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Resolution 1 (

c) Salarie s-pass; Resolution 1 (

d) Other Exp enditures-pass; 1 (

e) Legislative Printing and Bindi ng- pass; The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: I presume, Mr. Chairman, that that Legislative Printing and Binding refers to Jhe printing of Hansard. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. JORGENSON: And who has access to those bound copies of Hansard, the Members of the Cabinet an(j one copy each to each political party? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR.

SCH REYEIR: I am advised, in direct response, that the bindin g that is done for these papers for the Minis ters is done by the respective departments, and that which is done for the Speaker, the Clerk, and all of the caucus rooms is done by the Legislative Clerk's office. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 1 (e)- pass. Resolution 1: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $526,700 for Legislation-pass. Resolution 2, Provincia l Auditor's Office (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, to the First Min ister. I think it is appropriate to discuss generally the role of the Provincial Auditor, at this point, and particularly with reference to some of the recommendations in the Provinci al Auditor's Report. But, more particularly to point out that in his recommendations this year he has highlighted what he considers is a particular need, and I would like to, if I can, refer to what I consider is another - not a need, a justification for a request - but, I would like to, if I may, also indicate another reason.

I can quote from what he said on Page 28.

He said, "Our recommendation included that the Public Accounts Committee be established as a permanent ongoing committee during the terms of the Legislature, to assume a role along the lines of an audit committee in the private sector, and that various manag ers be required to app ear before the Public Accounts Committee to provide explanations and an accounting with regard to the day-to-day administrative matters of departments." Now we have followed procedure in the last few years where the Provincial Auditor has been here, and in effect the Public Accounts Committee realistically has spent more time on the Provincial Auditor's Report than it has on the Public Accounts Report.

As a matter of fact I think there were years where we didn't even touch, if I am correct, the Public Accounts Report itself. To that extent I think that we have been negl igent in carrying out our functions, and I think the fact that the Public Accounts Committee has not dealt with the Public Accounts Report has been an error. There is a responsib analyze ility for us to the actual expenditures that have been made.

Having voted and appr oved those recommendations in years gone by, it would seem to me that there is an obligation on our part to examine it and to at least be in a position to question and discuss, discuss it in a way in which the Min isters would answer, and their personnel who are present would, in effect, provide 2820

Monday, May 9, 19 77 many of the answers that are required. There is no way in which the procedures of the House will really provide us, even in the way in which we deal with matters in Committee. That is one thing. The second thing is that I am more convinced now that the procedures we have are intimidating to - and I am not in any way drawing any reflection on the government, this is a general observation, it has to do with the legisla tive process and the committee process - I think it is intimidating on the Auditor.

I think that what is happen ing now is not in the best interests of degree of protection that is required to be given to the public in that the Auditor, as a representative of the Legislature, should have the freedom to be able to come into this committee, as others I think should have, that is the Committee of the Public Accounts, and to deal with those items of controversy or of question in such a way that the facts are presented accurately on the table and in a way in which there is nothing that he is doing which is in violation of the government of the day, whoever the government of the day may be, with whom he has that responsibil ity of auditing, and in answer to the committee, whatever the make-up of that committee may be. lt would seem to me that our procedures are such, and the way in which we operate, that we are not receiving from him the kind of analysis that should be given, that furthElr than that the request on his part that there, in fact, be an audit committee or the committee operate in the same way as an audit committee of the priv ate sector, with various managers being required to appear, I think is essential because there is no justification for him answeri ng realistically in terms of his audit, for some of the questions that are properly raised by members of the Legislature about the handling of various transactions and occurrences in the departments.

We have situations in which questions are asked in the House either during the Es timates or through the other procedures in the House of the Min isters with respect to various matters. They may very well require some additional confirmation or additional information to be sup pl ied by the Auditor, he may or may not have that information, and in many cases - I guess you can cite examples where matters were brought up in the House, and as a resul t he took certain action, the action being to examine it from his point of view as the Provi ncial Auditor.

But there should be an ability for him to be able to come and forthwith present everything, and for those who are inv olved in the direct expenditure of the money to be in a position to answer as they would in the private sector for their handling of the matters. So that in effect we have an accurate and a detailed picture. We do not have that now.

The Provincial Auditor presents to us three orfourorfive items this year, in the previous year there may have been a dozen, in which he has undertaken certain specific inves tigations and these are the matters which he reports to us - he doesn't report everything that he investigates - over and above his normal audit, and I am not expecting that, but the problem at this point is that his answers come as a result of a general survey, and all he can deal with is in a general way, nor does he want to in any way become inv olved in what may be at that point for him a political controversy in the House.

But at the same time, what I am saying is that the procedures are such that we are not being put in a position where accurate and proper information is pla ced before us to be able to make judgments. There can be a lot of wrong calls on this, both on the government and the opposition side and it would seem to me, at this stage, that in talking about the Provincial Auditor's office, we have to recognize agai n that there has been a fundamental change that is taking place, not just here, throughout Canada, this issue is being discussed. There are changes proposed on the federal scene that we are aware of.

The whole question of evaluation of programs is another area which I haven't even touched at this point, as to whether he has or has not any responsi bility in that, and probably that is another matter that should be discussed when we discuss his office and his operation.

But, it would seem to me that what we are doing now, and the way in which we are operating, is a way that is not satisfactory in terms of the protection of the public interest which has to be our primary responsi bility, and I recognize that any government, whatever political stripe, will be concerned about excesses of powers being placed in the hands, or the abil ity of the committee to go on any particular witch-hunt, or to be able to do certain things that are beyond reason.

But, at the same time, I think, with that in mind there still are very fundamental changes that have to take place if the function of the Provi ncial Auditor's office is to continue in a proper manner. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Before we continue can I bring to the attention of honourable members our Rule 31 which says, "No member shall revive a debate al ready concluded." I would remind members that we have passed the Provincial Auditor's Report. Here I would seek guidance from the committee as to whether matters within the report should be brought up for discussion agai n at this time.

The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JOR GENSON: I doubt very much if the rule which you have now inv oked is appl icable in consideration of Es timates. I would think that the consideration of Es timates of Supply is a debate all by itself and it covers every aspect of government. If the sugge stion you make were to be appl ied that means that we could discuss nothing in the Es timates because it could be covered by various pieces of legislation that are being debated in the House.

I think that the rule applie s to debates that can be initiated in the House, outside of the Esti mates, but does not apply to Estima tes themselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable First Min ister. 2821

Monday, May 9, 19 77 MR. SC.HREYER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Well, I guess, the best way would be to speak to the point of order raised. I would agree with the Member for Morris, I think that Rule 31 relates to the context where someone attempts to raise the same substantive subject matter or motion de novo second or third time in a session. The Member for River Heights is not dealing with the Auditor's Report as such, but rather with the function of the office of the Auditor. In reply to what he has said, I don't know that there is any easy reply.

I have to, on the one hand, acknowledge the scope for which the Provinc ial Auditor is responsible for reporting, has changed. On the other hand the essence and nature of his function I don't believe has changed except by degree.

There is nothing to prevent the Auditor from reporting on any thing whatsoever, and if the Public Accounts Committee feels in the questioning of the Auditor that they have taken it as far as they can, and there is need for further information, nothing prevents a member of the Public Accounts Committee from raising the matter further by way of a su bstantive motion, resolution, amendment to a bill or whatever.

So I don't know that we have inadequate means of pursu ing anything that is important enough and su bstantive enough that flows from an Auditor's Report, even if one concedes a point to the Honourable Member for River Heights that sometimes a matter cannot be taken to its necessary ultimate in Public Accounts Committee itself. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR.

SPIVAK: Wel l, in the report - and agai n, because it refers to not the report but it refers to the change s that he would propose in his role - he states, "lt is apprecia ted that, as we have pointed out in reports previously for the Public Accounts Committee to be able to carry out more effectively a review of accountability of the expenditures of public funds, appr opriate Financial Statements, reports and other pertinent data must be available." In our view effective data is not as yet being made availa ble to the Legislature and to the Public Accounts Committee. You know, that's his basic statement.

Now, if the Provincial Auditor says, "In our view effective data is not as yet being made available to the Legislature and to the Public Accounts Committee," I don't know what other signa l we need. MR. SCHREYER: Well I think one statement that is very important is whether the Auditor himself is having a problem or is complaining as to the inadequacy of data and information to him, and if he is not complaining about that then I assume that he is in a position to report whatever he wishes to the committee.

So, then the Committee is not precluded from following up, focus·ing in on any one issue or another, and additional documentation information is then available depe nding on the nature of the specific inquir y. You know, franky I don't quite follow that particular assertion of the Provincial Auditor because there are motions and means by which specific information can be obtained, it depends what issue you wish to pursue.

But to say in advance that there must be a whole range of additional information made availabe leaves me a little uneasy because I don't know where the demarcation is on that and I have visions of the genera ting of vast quantities and reams of paper, much of which may not be particularly important or useful. MR. SPIVAK: Wel l, let me just quote what he says, continuing on from where the Premier finished .

"Within the complexities of the present government operations we feel that there is a lack of operational rules and guidelines for effective communication of ass igned responsibil ities, not only with regard to the Public Accounts Committee, but in government operations generally.

For example, under the heading of the Manitoba Development Corporation, in this report we comment on the situation indicating a lack of basic financial management system in the administration of public funds." Now he has cited here a specific example which is what the Premier was referring to, but agai n, for him to make the observation that within the complexities of present governmental operations we feel that there is a lack of operational rules and guideli nes for effective communications of assigned responsibil ities, I think that he is highlighting what has to be a concern to the Members of the Legislature.

And I am not sugges ting that this is just as a result of this year, that all of a sudden he has moved to this position. I think this has come as a resul t of his survey and of the way in which we have operated in the last few years with the questioning that has occurred.

I think that the nature of government, the change in the nature of government, the complexity of the whole range of governmental responsibil ities, the difficulty of being able to deal properly with many issues within the leg islative process means that the concept of a Public Accounts Committee meeting throughout the year, the ability of people to be able to come forward, and for people to be called, the abil ity for information to be su ppl ied accurately becomes important.

If there are changes and recommen dations that are needed he has to be in a position to come forward and bring them out to us in a very detailed way, so that in effect those recommendations could be made to the government by way of legisla tion. To a certain extent there are some generalities in what he is saying, in the sense that he is not givin g a specific, he's given one. But, the reality is he has already indicated the problem, and if we don't address ourselves to it, then I think that we are not, again, carrying out our function. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would make two points.

The first is that with respect to the example that he did give, which is rather a specific criticism of MDC's internal method, that I would 2822

Monday, May 9, 19 77 have thought that the Honourable Member for River Heights would take that rather important statement in the Auditor's Report and then take it to the very logical place to - wel l first of all he would do a little bit of further questioning of the Auditor to get a little more specifics - and then he would take that to the appropr iate place, which is the time when the General Manager of the Development Corporation is before the honourable member, and to examine it and cross examine it to his heart's content. Is that not logical?

The second point is that on format, I think that the Honourable Member for Morris and others are aware that two years ago, because the Auditor seemed to feel, not strongly , but seemed to feel convinced, perhaps strongly too, I don't know, that there should be a different format introduced to the Es timates Book. So as rather not to argue the point on a theoretical basis, we then proceeded on the basis of trial to introduce two departmental Estima tes on the basis of his new sugge sted format, which was su pposed to provide additional insight and information, a functional format as opposed to the ...

I think his description of the old book is "line by lin e." So we did that with respect to two departments, no criticism intended because I am not sure that he was right or someone else was wrong. But the fact is that no one, either on our side of the House or on the Opposition side of the House, has urged the expansion of that particular format. So this year we rather cautiously app roved one more department. Now we have th ree departments with this new format, and it is side-by-side because we haven't discontin ued the old format.

I am not sure that anything much results from it all, but we were wi lling to try it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Let's take an example, the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation, the fact that the chairman appears before the Stan ding Committee of Eco nomic Development.

That fact did not assist the Committee in determinin g whether in fact there were proper procedures taking place with respect to Flyer In dustries in its operation; whether in factthere was proper cost accounting; whether in fact the records themselves were correct, simply because the chairman of the Man itoba Development Corporation took the position that, with respect to that one corporation, shares of which were in the main owned by the Manitoba Development Corporation, that in effect he would answer only specific questions, but certainly he would not deal with internal matters.

Now, the reality is that there was in fact an audit undertaken by the Provincial Auditor.

There is mention of this here. lt would seem to me that it was relevant to our discussions of the day, and in the public interest for its protection, that there should have been accurate financial information made available to the ... and certainly answers to the questions that were asked because of all the concerns that were expressed about the financial situation, yet there was no way in which the Stand ing Committee operated that we could in any way find this information. lt was only after the fact that the Auditor was able to provide information to us.

And I think that in this, and I can cite other examples, that the Committee system does not work to provide this, that the requirement of the Provincial Auditor coming forward over a period of time and others answering as well is far more important. I don't think the Provincial Aud itor should be answe ring for the financial position or the concerns expressed by the financial position of Flyer In dustries.

I think the auditors involved are the ones who should be answ ering that, and I think that the chairman should be obligated to present accurately to the Committee when questions are asked about its financial position.

I am suggesting ther e are also times when obviously it is not going to be in the company's interest to be able to present information because of the particular situation, but here was a question of controversy in which it was generally known that there was a chaotic situation in which there had been enough public information which indicated some need for the Legislature to have accurate information in terms of its own debate. And I think what really happened wasn't a real solution, wasn't even beneficial to the government.

I don'tthink the government solved anyth ing from its own point of view politically. lt is simply that our procedures did not allow for that, and the kind of chan ges that I am talking about I think are important. I don't believe that the Stan din g Committee in effect gives us that abil ity. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, I think it is a very important and necessary distinction to draw that the function of the Auditor is to go into any given department or agency and be duly authorized and capable of carrying out an audit to ascertain whether the internal operations are conforming with generally understood and acceptable accounting and accountability procedures.

That seems unfortunately to be misconstrued to mean that the Auditor has a role and function to play in terms of commenting, gratuitously or otherwise, on such things as prudence of busine ss judgment, or as to whether or not the supplie rs to a given operation are acting in a normal business manner, or whether there is a horrendous time lag in deliv ery of suppl ies to the manufacturer or whatever. The Auditor would be among the first to say that his role and function, nor is his capacity such that he could become involved in the second aspect.

If you read closely the letter that I know my honourable friend has been preoccupied with, you will 2823

Monday, May 9, 19 77 find in there a sentence by the auditor to the effect that he was not presuming to offer judgment and advice with respect to business decisions, merely whether or not the accountability and accounting procedures and internal management were acceptable by generally understood criteria, two very different questions. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, I believe that our procedures are intimidating to the Auditor, and I do not believe that we receive from him the detailed information that we should.

We are asked to seek that from him by asking questions, and I would think that a recognition that there is a longer period of examin ation, rather than a shorter period of a Legislative session, a recognition that others who are responsible for the accounting and audit procedures intern ally within a sp ecific area may be subject to being examined by the Committee, so that they are going to be accountable for their actions, I think becomes a very important feature.

I think thatthere have to be both rules and regulations set up in such a way that there is no abuse of this, but I think that it would be very important. As an example it would seem to me that if those who are responsib le for the accounting and auditing of Flyer knew that they really had to answer to the Legislative Committee, that a fair number of errors of judgment and mistakes that were made would not have been made, and simply there was no accountability and this is the problem. The Auditor went in after the fact. He did not go in at the time of concern, and he was auditing a set of circumstances.

But the reality is that the chairman of Manitoba Development Corporation took the position that he could only answer in a general way, and the spe cifics were not really within his knowledge. And further, that insofar as the accounting procedures were concerned it really isn't a question of cost accounting, it is a question of how they had organized themselves so that they were in a position to be able to know the basic accounting information that was required, that this was not subject to our review, but this was essential to understanding the problem area.

And again I think the public interest would have been protected had we known about that earlier. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, even accepting the honourable member's premise, which 1 think one would have to put some caveats on, but even accepting it, as I understand it then, the honourable member's problem which he should address himself to has to do with the adequacy of the answerabili ty or accountability of the chairman of the MDC and/or its spe cific operating subsidiaries, and not the Office of the Auditor. That's where the greater problem lies. MR.

SPIVAK: The problem is, the accounting information that's required comes from the Auditor. The information is not available through any other . source that I know of, and in effect in this particular case, there was a special audit undertaken.

There was a special audit undertaken on the Department of Co-operative Development and that provided information that I think would have been valuable at the time the debate occurred in the House; valuable in many respects, valuable from the government's point of view, valuable from the point of view of the Opposition, because at that point at least we would have been dealing with more accurate information than both sides were dealing with at the time. And at least in terms of the publi c interest, there would have been ad egree of protection.

What really happene d is that following a debate in the Legislature which was extensive, in which a number of alle gations were made, in which a number of ans wers were given, the Auditor provided a report the following year. And then at that time when the questions were raised, again they were raised on something that had happened a year before. And I think in this case it proved pretty satisfactory. His report proved that the ans wers given were unsatisfactory and that the alle gations made were satisfactory.

But that doesn't protect the publi c interest, because it would appear to me that those who were responsible, if they had to come before the Public Accounts Committee with the Auditor to answer for the all egations that had been made, there would have been a far better result, a quicker result, a better result overall and a greater protection for the Min iste.rs and for the government involv ed who rely on people at different levels to carry out their functions. And I think that this is a problem area and this is what I believe he is highlighting and this is what I believe has to be considered. MR. SCHREVER: Mr.

Chairman, I am not going to resist the latter suggestion, because I think that is a more tangible proposal - that perhaps the procedures of the Committee on Public Accounts could be altered so that it is clearly possible and manageable for Public Accounts to call, after they have heard from the Provincial Auditor, in spe cific follow-up thereto, those of the departments or agenc ies that are specificall y at issue in the report.

And I think that that is a manageable procedure. lt doesn't lend itself to being done all in one day, so then if my honourable friend is suggesting that some several days or few weeks, and not a year later but some few weeks later, the Committee reconvene to deal with this specific follow-up, some of the departmental heads or branch or divisi onal heads, well, I don't reject it and I do give an undertaking that we wil l see .. .. I off-hand cannot s,ee any practical obstacles in attempting to do it that way. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Op position. MR. STERLING LYON (Souris- Killarney): Mr.

Chairman, the matter raised by the Member for River Heights, spoken to by the Premier, was discussed, I think as you are aware, in Public Accounts 2824

Monday, May 9, 19 77 the other day when we did receive information from the Provincial Auditor to the effect that the Public Accounts and his Auditor's Statement could be made available some time in the early fall of each year, a matter of some four to five months after the close of the books for the fiscal year; and that some variation on the recommendation that he made could well be implemented if Public Accounts were to begin its meetings between sessions, deal with the publ ished records which then are available, rather than six months later, and get into some of the management items that he has recommended in his report that have been referred to by the Member for River Heights.

I don't wish to continue that discussion here; it was referred to in Public Accounts. I think Public Accounts, unle ss I am mistaken, will be meeting once again, not to consider the Auditor's Report, however. I am not suggesting that the matter will be gone into a second or a third time again, but to finish up on Public Accounts. I made the sugge stion that a motion could be put before the Public Accounts Committee to implement that recommendation.

There seemed to be some consensus that the idea bore some merit, and as I understood the Minister of Finance, or the Legislative Assistant to the Min ister of Finance, the government through him unde rtook to give consideration to that very procedure, which would be desirable and which would be at least a partial carrying out of what the Member for River Heights has been talking about here this morning; also would have more currency for the discussion in Public Accounts because now in that Committee, we are talking about books that have been closed some thirteen months. MR.

SCHREYER: Yes, I think in a general principle way we can agree to that contention.

I think as of the last eighteen months, there has been an amendment to The Legislative Assem bly Act-o rthe rules, I think it is to the Act- so that Committees can meet intersessional ly without that having been necessarily anticipated and covered by a formal motion before adjournment of the House, so that it is possible, certainly it is procedurally possible, and inasmuch as we do mai l out to members intersessiona lly such reports, Utility reports for sure, and I believe some others, there is no reason why this couldn' t, assu ming that it is available of course.

So then that is the procedure which, if I understood the Leader of the Opposition, will be raised at the next meeting of Public Accounts? MR. LYON: After discussion with the Clerk of the House, it was agreed that there was no formal resolution of the Committee necessary because the Committee has the power to meet between sessions. There seemed to be some consensus what remains now is for, I think , some undertaking as expressed by the Min ister of Finance and tonight again by the First Min ister, that that procedure would be a desirable one to be followed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 2(a)-pass. 2(

b) Other Expenditu res- pass. Resolution 2, Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,1 98,600 for Legislation-pass. Resolution 3, Ombudsman . (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russel l. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the Office of the Ombudsman, I believe it is traditional in most of our Legislative appointments that, for instance, within the field of the m un ici pal board, that reports through the Min ister to the Legislature, the Human Rights Commission reports through the Office of the Attorney-General, but here we have the Office of the Ombudsman, who is set up as a creature of the Legislative Assembly and we vote him so much money every year and he prints an annua l report.

To my knowledge there is no vehicle that the Ombudsman has to actually report to the Legislature. I was just wondering if we should not consider having some Committee where he could report to members of the Legislature in a manner that we give to most other Committees that are set up under our legisla tion. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, the member is half right - therefore half wrong - in this sense, that the Ombudsman does report by means or by virtue of his written report, and if the honourable member is suggesting that he could be callable before a Committee of the House to elaborate thereon, it is provided for in the statute that he is call able by this Assem bly, by any of the appropriate Committees thereof. Let me just, as a suggestion, offer the possibili ty of the Committee of Privileges and Elections. lt would require a motion of the House, presumably, or just general agreement. MR. GRAHAM:That is all I was interested in, Mr.

Chairman, was just to know under what Committee we could call the Ombudsman before members of the Legisla ture, so you would have a chance to explain his activities to us. MR. SCH REYER: 1 don't think it anywhere states that it must be the Committee on Privileges and Elections, but that would be one obvious vehicle. MR. GRAHAM: No further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 3(a )-pa ss; 3(

b) Other Exp enditures-pass. Resolution 3: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 35,400 for Legislation-pass. That concludes the resolutions to be voted under the Department of Legislation. ESTIMATES - EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MR. CHAIRMAN: May we turn now to Page 4, Department of Executive Counci l, Resolution 4(

a) Premier and President of the Council's Compensation - Salary and Representa tion Allowance . . 2825

Monday, May 9, 19 77 Does the Honourable Minis ter have a statement? MR. SCHREYER: Well, I have just a very brief statement. As honourable members will note, the aggrega te for this division of government shows a very modest increase over last year. The main increase, although it's modest too, ironically the main in crease is coming from that division of government that has the princi pal onus of attempting to keep restraint on all departments of government. I mention that just as a rather ironic aside.

There was very little increment over last year and there is no sig nificant additional activity that is presumed here in terms of new function or whatever; it is pretty well existing level of service so to speak. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is aware that when we deal with a department that there is an opening statement from the Min ister and we'll come back to deal with this as the last item. Resolution 4(

b) Min ister Without Portfolio's Compensation-pa ss; 4(

c) Administrative Salaries. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, how many - I'm trying with the usual lack of success to refer to the Public Accounts of 19 75-76 and the two items - how many personnel are involv ed in the Administrative Salaries? Do we have a rundown or could a rundown be made available? If not tonight, at some other occasion. MR. SCHREYER: Under 1 (

c) it would be a total of 27. No, I'm sorry, scratch that. We'll have to take that and get you the precise information. If we could have a recess of three minutes, I could get that information. MR. LYON: I was going to ask the same question under Management Committee of Cabinet 3(a) (1 ) Salaries $1 ,723,1 00, if we could have a breakdown of that in terms of the number of personnel, and Planning Secretariat, the same thing. MR. SCHREYER: Under Planning Secretariat we have 39 staff. Is that what your question was?

Under General Administration, which is the Executive Council office per se I have to get the blue books and we'll have them momentarily. MR. LYON: Does that show, Mr. Chairman, the breakdown by job class ification, etc., or is this just a gross figure that we have? I know the blue book will probably show the breakdown. If those could be produced before we adjourn or tomorrow in the House, that will be sufficient. MR. SCHREYER: Yes. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Would Members of the Committee be willin g to pass that and then just come back to it when the information is available? MR.

LYON: Well, not pass it, just hold it in abeyance and go on. MR. CHAIRMAN: That is agreed. Can we move then to Resolution 4(

d) Other Expe nditures pass; 4(

e) Government Hospitality and Presentations-pass; 4(

f) a Nil Appropriation-pass; 4(

g) In ternational Development Program. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman , under the In ternational Development Program, I notice for the past several years we have had a quarter of a million dollars an nua lly . MR. The past SCHREYER: how many years? MR. GRAHAM: I'm not too sure, it's been several. MR. SCHREYER: Two. MR. GRAHAM: Well, it was in 19 75. Is this an ongoing arrangement, or how long does it run? MR. SCHREYER: lt runs as long as the Assembly is prep ared to vote the amount, or until such time as the government may not wish to recommend it to the Assembly.

But in a few words, it would seem to me as though we have a commitment to continue this as long as the Manitoba Association of In ternational Aid Agencies, which is a federation of various private agencies in Man itoba, continue with their program and the Federal Government continues with its program of matching two dollars for two dollars, so that the way this concept works, if the federation of various church and other private non-profit charitable organizations - for every dollar they raise, the province matches and then the Canadian In ternational Development Agency matches two for the two.

That's the way this works. I know that this is an unending type of question, whether a province is properly involved in this type of program but the Canadian In ternational Development Agency, through its former president - perhaps he's still the president, Paul( ?) Lejoie(?) made an offer to private agencies that if they could draw provincia l governments into this, then they would match them two for two and it became a rather tempting target. I was advised that most Canadian provinces were going into this I have to in all candor say-that at last count it was only three or four.

I don't know ifthat's a signi ficant argument but we are one of the four. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, then the amount that we vote is contingent not upon the Province of ManJtoba as such but the various organizations within the province that want to put up their portion of the money; we have more or less guaranteed that we would match it. Is that right? MR. SCHREYER: 1 think it would be more correct to say that because we didn't know in the first 2826

Monday, May 9, 19 77 year how this would work, we did put a ceiling on just to have a handle on it and the ceilin g proved to be reasonably accurate in the sense that there was no indication that it was out of lin e. Now it is not to say that next year we may get a submission from this federation of aid agencies that this is only half enough or whatever, but that hasn't been the case so far. MR. GRAHAM: lt is more or less an open-ended agreement then? MR. SCHREYER: No, well, by virtue of the fact that we have it at a specific figure - last year we had no difficulty living within those means. MR.

GRAHAM: The only reason I raised it, I know in the first year - you said 19 75 was the first year - according to Public Accounts it was $256,000, I think. MR. SCHREYER: There may have been a $6,000 over-commitment or whatever. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: In this grant, Mr. Chairman, who mon itors the bona fides or the accountability or whatever of the disposition of this vote from the province? Does that go through CID A or does it go through the private agencies? How do we get a monitoring as to how that money is used effectively? MR.

SCHREYER: Wel l, we have a very simple mechanism but we think it's qu ite adequate. The in itiative comes from the private agencies who have people out in the field, in the Third World so to speak and they sift out-they do considerable priorizing themselves - then it comes to us as a series of recommendations scaled to this amount of money. The Clerk of the Executive Assem bly, Mr. Bedson, and I do whatever administrative work is involved - it's quite a simple procedure -and then it's approved conditional upon it being in fact matched by CIDA two for two. That's about how it's handled. MR.

LYON: I'm happy that the First Minis ter and Mr. Bedson are doing the monitoring, Mr. Chairman, rather than CI DA, having regarded some of their monitoring practices. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 4(g) -pass; 4(

h) Special Hospitality Grant, that's a nil appropriation too. The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. HENDERSON: . . . nothing for 19 78 there? MR. SCHREYER: Wel l, I couldn' t honestly say. I think it's covered by the General Hospital Grant and the reason we had a Special was, I think in our Centenn ial Year, and for some reason it hasn't been dropped from the format but it could be dropped entirely. MR. HENDERSON: Wel l, 19 77 wasn't our Centennia l year. MR.

SCHREYER: No, 19 70 was when we included it, and I'm saying that subsequent to that I sup pose we could have elimina ted it entirely from the format, not just elimina te the dollars but eliminate the line entirely. MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we go back to Resolution 4(

c) Administrative Salaries. MR. SCHREYER: The Leader of the Opposition was asking as to staffing complement. Under Admin istration, which includes Executive Compensation, Administration of the Premier's Office, Government Hospitality and the In ternational Development Program - but that's really to say really a one-man office in a sense -t he staff complement last year was 29; this year it's 27. So there is actually a diminution of two. MR. LYON: Where do we find a breakdown by function of those positions, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure it appears somewhere. MR.

SCHREYER: We would have to get that over the course of the next 24 hours. MR. LYON: Fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 4(c)-p ass. Resolution 5, Planning Secretariat of Cabinet . MR. SCHREYER: Excuse me, but it's not quite specific enough. This complement of 27 would includ e Mr. Bedson, the senior officer series, Mrs. Goebel who - the actual classification is Secretary to the Premier, Mrs. Constantini would be a Senior Administrative Officer. There is a complement of five girls in that office, clerk-stenos.

The office next to that has a complement of three girls, also clerk-stenos, and the office at the extreme west, there would be two professional officers and three clerk-stenos. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5(a). MR. SCHREYER: Is that adequate or would you like further precision on it? MR. LYON: I had presumed that it would have appeared in Public Accounts from the previous year but it doesn't appear there. MR. SCHREYER: You mean by classification? MR. LYON: Yes, how many clerk-stenos- you've got one Clerk of the Exec utive Council - how many Executive Assistants, etc? MR.

SCHREYER: Wel l, it's pretty well as I've indicated to you: the two professional officers would be the two Executive Assistants. MR. LYON: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5(

a) Salaries. The Honourable Leader of the Op position. MR. LYON: ... if it's available. Here we're talking about an item of almost a million dollars so, rather than read it into the record, if there is a sheet of paper that could be distributed, that would be 2827

Monday, May 9, 19 77 sufficient for my purposes. MR. SCHREYER: I think (b)(

S) here from the Estimates Blue Book would sort of sum it up. Perhaps I could pass it on. The staffing in this particular compo nent is constant, no increase, no decrease. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, SMYs are always very interesting but they are not very human. What are the classifications? How many are extant at the present time and so on? And I don't expect it at the moment; if it can be produced on a piece of paper tomorrow, that will be fine. MR.

SCHREYER: lt's not nearly precise enough but as an interim bit of in formation, there would be two senior officers and approximately 15 professional officers and approximately 18 or 19 clerical, in that order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Premier is in a position to indicate, does the Planning Secretariat assist - its function is shown here and I don't have to read it, in the Estimates Book - does the Plann ing Secretariat assist in the Dominion-Provincial relations field as weli?

In other words, is there a reliance on support from the Pl anning Secretariat for the Federal-Provincial Relations Research Division of the Department of Finance? MR. SCHREYER: That is correct. I think quite logically it has evolved that way for t he basic reason that

whereas several years ago by far the greatest, if not practically the entire interface Dominion Provincially was on fiscal matters, in this decade there has been a very major inc rease - and I'm not defending it entirely - in the frequency of Dominion-Provincial meetings and in addition, interprovincial all under the general heading of inter-governmental and much of that is although indirectly related to fiscal matters, a good part of it is on specific subject matters and so therefore depending on the agenda items of any given inter-governmental confe rence.

If it's heavily fiscal then the division of the Department of Finance handles it in a lead sense. If it is indirectly fiscal, only indirectly, then planning priorities, appropriate person or persons there would work with one or two people from the Department of Finance. That's basically how it has evolved. MR. SPIVAK: I think it would be appropriate to make a comment here with respect to one policy matter or a decision - not a policy matter but a determination. lt would seem to me, Mr.

Premier, that there is a requirem ent now for preparation of a document of what Manitoba has contributed to Confederation. lt would seem to me very logicallythat there is a need for the province to provide, not a balance sheet at all, but a statement of its contribution over the years. I think probably every province in the country should in fact provide that. I think that's necessary for us to understand the fabric of our nation, particularly at this time. And it should be done in a positive way as opposed to a negative way.

I think there is a tendency for some poli ticians to try and say, "What have we received from Confede ration and what are the benefits?" And my reason for mentioning now ... MR. SCHREYER: ... dollar terms, or some kind of subjective human terms or what? MR. SPIVAK: Subjective, not in dollar terms, but of necessity some dollar terms may very well be mentioned.

My point being that I think that if the Planning Secretariat are involved in the Domini on Provincial field and not exclusively left to the Department of Finance and its branch - and this was my understanding and all you've done is confirm that- then it would appear to me that there is a need at this point for the people in Manitoba to understand it as well as for the people outside of Manitoba. lt's something that could be considered as a suggestion to other provinces.

My point being it would seem to me that one of the useful fun ctions of the Plan ning Secretariat at this point because of the nature of the debate that we're in today and the possible changes of that debate in the future, and the possible consequences of that debate without getting involved in the total emotional problem attached to the statements that are made by the various Quebec ministers at different times or by its Premier, or by the Prime Minister for that matter. lt would seem to me that we, in our own province, should have some clearcut statement of what Confederation has meant, what we have contributed and what we see as our future.

This, I think is a much more positive kind of approach than the more negative approaches that occur. Now, when we have Dominion-Provincial Conferences dealing with whatever matters there are, there is a negotiation process and a bargaining process that goes through and we will go through some program or we will attend some program on a Dominion-Provincial level and there will be some adjustments and we may or may not be happy with it.

The Finance Minister may come back and say, "My God, it's going to cost us this amount of money," or "We weren't satisfied with this." I think those are the realities that we deal with from day-to-day. But it would seem to me that it's necessary at this point for something in a much more positive manner to be presented.

Just simply to reassure us when I say "us" I mean the people in this province - of the things that have occurred and in effect the lifestyle that we've been able to develop with all our problems and with all the difficulties we have at present, because not everyone is receiving the benefits of the potential that really is ours.

What I'm suggesting is that one of the functions that the Planning Secretariat should be developing is this very positive statement of what Manitoba has contributed and in many respects what Canada may mean to Manitoba and it should be done in such a way that it may set an example for others to follow so that 2828

Monday, May 9, 19 77 when the National Debate enters the different stages that I have referred to that we would be equipped, all of us, with information and with facts and figures and with leadership with respect to the national issue that is before us. MR. SCHYER: Mr. Chairman, I certainl y can't question the sugges tion. I mean it's obvious it's meant in good faith, but I find it difficult to respond to the sug gestion because I see that it is in a sense fraught with some difficulty if not danger.

If we do it in a way that is too heavil y oriented to the financial and fiscal it will be described as being cold and cold calculus, relating to a country which is more than just nu mbers. If on the other hand we try to inject into it some feeling, it would be regarded as being poetic and not really realistic in the nature of things. I'm not saying that we should not attempt to prepare such a document, but to the extent that any one single document presumes to be a tablet of stone, something definitive to the exclusion of all else, frankly I see a psychological problem.

I think that Manitoba's position in Confederation has been historically positive, certainl y ever since the years of Rowel I Si rois. I don't think it has basical ly changed and I don't think that any part of Canada or its people could sugge st that Manitoba has somehow been preoccupied with wanting to pull in the direction of greatly increased provincia l powers, that in fact it has been consistently concerned as much as any other single part of the country with the maintenance of a strong union. Maybe it is so self-evident to me that it to my mind hardly warrants restating in print. MR.

SPIVAK: lt would seem to me that it could be fraught with danger and the Premier has mentioned this. But the fact is that the delicate balance which is required which is really what he is referring to, I think it is necessary. I think the leadership in this becomes a very important aspect of the atmosphere that we are going to deal with with the problems that face us. There has been too much negativism generally with the whole issue of Confederation.

The Premier in answer to a few questions that were asked in the House responded and I think you will recall this by sayi ng that he was not going to be involved in emotionalism or in the emotional aspect of this. But the reality is that it is partially an emotional aspect and to a certain extent it has to have some basis in fact and it has to have some basis in the insights that those who are in the positions of leadership are prepar ed to provide to the general public so that the perspective in which we view the situation and we view our own position is understood.

All politicians have the responsibil ity of addressing themselves to that problem, it's not just the Premi ers or the governments. But it would seem to me that there is a capacity within a secretariat of Cabinet with resources that are available, with the personnel that are available and with the access to all the documentation that is available that's within the government in terms of the total past history to be able to develop this and that would become a very important

part in the understanding and the development of the understanding and in the development of the mood, and the proper perspective within which we have to view the problems of today and the changes that I think we're going to have to deal with. MR. SCH REYER: Let me get this clear then, Mr. Chairman. The honourable member is not, if I understand him correctly, is not advocating a strictly fiscal documentation. Such has been done by two provinces thus far. MR.

SPIV AK: I think that's a part of it and I think that's very important in terms of understanding the negotiations that will take pl ace and the change s that are being proposed. I'm not in any way suggesting that that information should not be prepared. I think it's very important. I think the implications of everything are such that we should understand that very clearly. But I think there is something far more involved and it relates to some of the features that the Premier has mentioned, but it's a delicate balance in which to be able to present this properly.

But at the same time it would seem to methatthere is a need for this and I think that there is a gen eral desire that this happen. ln any case it would be a much more positive approach than part of the negative approach that is part of the debate at the present time. MR. SCH REYER: Well admittedly something different is needed and the suggestion is taken in good faith. We shall see if the honourable member is setting us up to steer between Scyl la and Charybdis. I hope he's not setting us up for that vortex - I hope not. MR.

SPIVAK: I want to assure the First Min ister that that's not the case. lt would seem to me that there is a need for a very positive debate to occur and for a very positive presenta tion to be made and the leadership has to come from the politicians, but the leadership also has to come from government. The leadership has to come from government to a large extent because the resources are available to them. lt is not as if there are not academics or writers who are not in a position to be able to provide leadersh ip. That I'm sure will be forthcoming and to a certain extent even at the present time it is occurring.

Bu t it would seem to me that because of the fact that governments and First Min isters are in the limelight constantly and other politicians as well, that there is an advantage to have it presented by those who are in a position to provide that kind of leadership and it would seem to me that the kind of presenta tion that I'm talkin g about is a very detailed one embracing part of the fiscal arrangements but not dwelling on that alone. lt's a document that will really reflect the spi rit of what has happened in the past and really possibly liftthe emotions of the people in this province to 2829

Monday, May 9, 19 77 the issue of the day and hopefully this would happen in other areas so that the negativism that I've mentioned, and we all know, will not be the major factor influencing our will at this point as to what decisions are going to have to be made or the hard choices we are going to have to face. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman , I don't disag ree with those sentiments, but just to give a very prelimina ry or minor indication to the honourable member of what he already well knows, the problem is a very complex one, so much so that there is rather profound disagreement even in the most senior echelons of the Government of Canada. If I were to tell him, for example, that one ofthe more senior Minis ters - ifthere is such a thing as sen ior and junior Min isters - in the Government of Canada has said repeatedly that the problem is one of langua ge, lang uage, lang uage. Langua ge within Quebec, langua ge matters outside of Quebec.

And another very senior person attached to that same government says, . There are still "No, it's not lang uage. lt's economics too many people, disproportionately too many, working at $2.85 an hour or whatever in various kinds of industries at Trois-Rivieres and Chicoutimi and so on. So in the face of that one knows in advance that whatever we say will be perceived in different ways even within the source ofthe Federal Cabinet itself let alone the Federal Cabinet and the governments of the province and other provinces. MR.

SPIVAK: But our problem is to give leadership within Manitoba and it may very well be if that takes pla ce that we'll do what is required in the other provinces and that that will have a very important effect on the federal politicians who still have to respond to their own area. MR. SCHYER: Well, excuse me. You say, "leadership within Man itoba." I thought the main thrust of your point was that it had to do with Manitoba's articulating its perception of Confederation as a whole, so that we're inv olved outside Manitoba. MR. SPIVAK: That's right we are involved.

But the leadership I am talking specifically on that and I don't want to sugge st anything else, but I'm talking about giving leadership in Manitoba for Manitobans to be able to articulate the position and to understand it and to be able to view it in the perspective that I think they have to. I must say that in the debate that's taken pla ce so far, I am generally appalled by what I consider is a neg ative attitude by many who for many reasons have, I think , lost sight of what this country really is all about. I think there is a need for the kind of effort that I have talked about.

And I think there are others who would probably give the same kind of testimony. I'm not sugges ting that everyone, by any means, is like that but there are some. I think that that is a danger for us and we have tofacethat. And it would seem to me that there are many times that I have challenged the exercise of money being spent on behalf of the public and the utilization of resources of government but in this kind of effort I think this is very essen tially necessary. And there is a capacity, I think, within government to do it. MR. SCHREYER: Wel l, as I say, we'll take the sugge stion in good faith.

Maybe I'm pess imistic by nature, but I feel in advance that it will not make a profound difference because there are basical ly different perceptions as to the nature of the problem and its possible amelioration, not to say solution. But we'll accept it in good faith. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5(a). The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: I'll pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLI NG R. LYON (Souris-Ki llarney): Mr. Chairman, perhaps this would be helpful for the First Min ister.

My colleague, the Member for Birtle-Russell has showed me what I was missi ng, on Page 9 of the Suppl ement to the Public Accounts, we see the breakdown for the fiscal period '75-'76 of Administrative Salaries under the Executive Council. That shows 17 members ... MR. SCHREYER: I'm sorry it can't be Page 9, do you mean ... MR. LYON: Pardon me, Page 6 .. .. 17 salaries, or 17 persons at fiscal year end March 31, 19 76. The First Minis ter now says there are 27 or 29 is it. MR. SCHREYER: Twenty-seven. MR. LYON: This is where is our problem un iversallyon locking in the Public Accounts with the Esti mates. MR.

SCHREYER: Let me get that quite clear. You wish the actual job classifications? MR. LYON: Yes, job classifications. We can figure out the additional names usually. Simi larly, just to jump ahead, Mr. Chairman, on the Planning Secretariat of Cabinet at the end of fiscal '76, it showed that there were 52 by my count, 52 members of the Planning Secretariat with their salaries that are listed on Page 6 and their names. And simila rly on Page 7 for the Management Committee of Cabinet, it showed 35 plus 31 , which is 71 people in Management Committee and it shows their names and sal aries there.

All I'm looking for is the lock-ins so that we can find out what changes if any have occurred. MR. SCHREYER: Clearly I can get that information for tomorrow, as far as classification. With respect to reconciliation of the numbers where there appears to be a difference in numbers it is because some of the 50 or so names here, some of those would be part-time of the year, so when you consolidate them it comes out to 39 staff man years, full-time staff man years or full-time equivalent. 2830

Monday, May 9, 19 77 Some of these have been for parts of years, in the sup plement. I think that would reconcile the 50- something with the 39. · MR. LYON: lt merely highl ights Mr. Chairman, part of the problem that you run into trying to utilize the information that is available.

The information generally speaking is available if you can put your hands on it, and it sug gests that if we could- we used to try to provide, at the beginnin g of each Minister's department, a lock-in piece of paper which would show the personnel or the job description of the personnel, plu s the numbers, which when compared with the sheet from the Public Accounts for the year previous, the one on Page 6 and Page 7, for example, would give you an up-to date picture as to who was there, roughly what category of salar y they were in and what their job classification was. MR. SCHRE YER: Right. is, MR.

LYON: The information there it is a question of just locking it in. MR. SCHREYER: Wel l, I can only comment that the actual names are in the Supp lement, but there are two problems with it. One, it doesn't give the job classification or description; the other, is it also doesn't indicate the portion of the year as in some cases it is a portion of the year that they may have been on strengt h. MR. LYON: You can usually ass ume the job classification from the salary .. MR. SCHREYER: Except where in some cases the salary is perhaps for six, or eight, or ten months. MR.

LYON: That's right, although that is clearly indicated in Public Accounts, it is always asterisked. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5(a ), 5(

b) Other Expen ditures. The Honourable Member for Birtle Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, dealing with Other Expen ditures under Pla nnin g Secretariat, I notice in 19 75-76 under Public Accounts that we had $231 ,500 plus another $83,000 which would run well over $300,000. Last year we had $41 4,000, this year we are cut down to $1 88,000. 1 notice also that there is a substantial increase in salaries, but their expenses are cut more than half, I hope we are not paying more people to do less and less work, that's all I am thinking of. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter. MR.

SCHREYER: No, indeed, the number of people on staff with the Pla nning Secretariat is constant in the upcoming year, the year we are in now, as compared to last year. What accounts for the decrease in Other Expend itures, and an increase in Salaries, is, I believe, two thing s: one, some decrease in consulting fees, that is a decrease; and the other is, I think, some transfer to the order of four or five persons from a contract position to a Civi l Service position or permanent position. For example, some persons are brought on on contract, short-term or even full-year, that may even extend for a second year.

At some point some of these people - I say, I think, the scale is about four persons transferred from a contract position to a permanent position, and when that happens the dollars to go with that would appear under Salaries, and if they were on contract it appears under Other Expendit ures. MR. GRAHAM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I know it is very difficult going back and forward, but unde r Public Accounts we find that the total professional fees in 19 75-76 was only $24,000. MR.

SCHREYER: I am advised that moneys for contract personnel would be under Other Exp enditures; they are not under Professional Fees, un less the person involved is indeed being retained on a consulting fee and is a holder of a professional degree. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, that is expressly what I was addressing myself to; I wasn't address ing myself to the salaries at all, they are a sep arate item under Public Accounts. lt is the Other Expen ditures, and where they do list professional fees as $24,000 under 2(

d) on Page 81 of the 19 75- 76 Public Accounts. MR. SCHREYER: I can get more specific detail, but I am convinced that the bulk of the difference is accounted for in the fact that Other Exp enditures show a marked decrease, salaries show an increase, is because, not only of the normal increment in salaries, but in addition the transfer of three or four persons, previously under Other Expenditu res as contract personn el to Civil Service Commission positions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5(b). The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'll accept the Min ister's explanation but it is still about $1 50,000 out. MR. SCHREYER: Well, sinc e we do have to get some job classification information for the Leader of the Opposition we can red circle this question as wel l. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 5(b)-pass; Resolution 5, resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,1 70,000 for Executive Council-pass. Resolution 6 Mana gement Committee of Cabinet (

a) Management Committee Secretariat

(1) Sal aries-pass; (a) {2) Other Expenditu res-pass; (a)

(3) Development and Trainin g-pass; The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: What is Development and Trainin g, is that Sabbatical Leave, etc., etc.? 2831

Monday, May 9, 19 77 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: There is a small component under Treasury Board or Mana gement Committee, which schedules and co-ordinates the holding of in-House trainin g semina rs and short courses. This is sep arate and apart from the encouragement of those in the public service to attend extramural or full-time courses at the un iversity. This is strictly having to do with internal, in-service trainin g so to speak. MR.

LYON: At the rate of sal aries that we are paying for Mana gement Committee's Secretariat, $1, 700,000, it would sugge st that we should have people in there who don't need too much additional training; it is sort of like having an in -House trainin g course for the Board of Directors of the Bank of Montreal. Who needs it? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 6(a) (3)- pass; The Honourable Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, just to provide some further information on this.

This $81 ,000 doesn't relate to Management Committee personnel as such; it might in the odd one or two circumstances, but it relates to in-service training, the cost of staging the in-service trainin g relating to all of the departmental personnel that are enroll ing or encouraged or induced or whatever to enter into those in-service training programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 6(a) . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: The First Min ister would agree that the Salaries themselves provide sufficient inducement, one would think, without very much more. MR. SCHREYEIR: Well, I don't argue the point.

I think I have made somewhat the same point and we have been monitoring the Education Leave Program so that it doesn't - wel l, we do on the other hand have the argument put to us as to how we stand in relation to other jurisdictions with respect to the same program offerings and opportunity improvements and the like. In a final analysis, I think, the point has to be well taken that much of the opportunity for advancement has to come from within the desire of the individua ls themselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 6(a) (3)-pass; Resolution 6, resolved that .. . The Honourable Member tor River Heights. MR.

SPIVAK: I didn't deal with anything in a specific way, but I would like to ask the First Min ister, are there situations that arise with respect to the Mana gement Committee, where the Provincial Auditor requests the Management Committee's assistance, or the Management Committee itself requests the Provincia l Auditor's assistance? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable First Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, I don't know about the latter; I think the former I could say has happened, the latter on occasions. MR.

SPIVAK: Could you give us an example of a request from Management Committee -I am not asking tor the specific incidents, I am just trying to find an example of how that would work. MR. SCHREYER: I don't know if the procedure of this Committee is such as to ... perhaps Mr. Sn ider could answer directly and save time. MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, our procedures don't permit other than the Min ister to reply to other members of the Committee. MR. SCHREYER: Is my honourable friend seeking specific examples by which to arrive at some impression? MR. SPIVAK: Yes. MR.

SCHREYER: Wel l, one specific example is that the Provincia l Auditor has requested program auditors of Treasury Board, of which there are seve ral, for direct, detailed assistance with respect to auditing the Co-op Development Loans Board activities. That's one example. MR. SPIVAK: Procedurally, can I ask: Is this a direct communication between the Provincia l Auditor and the General Management Committee without going through the Min ister? In other words, is this the Provincia l Auditor to the civil servants inv olved? MR. SCHREYER: There is, I am advised, no set pattern.

Whether that means that protocol is not observed, but rather dictates some common sense so that the Provincia l Auditor presumably worked through Mr. Snid er or through the Min ister chairing Management Committee, either one or the other actually .... MR. SPIVAK: Has there been any incident in which there has been a request from the Provincial Auditor to the Management Committee for which the Management Committee is responsible, the official response has been that this matter has to be discussed with the Min ister rather than at our level? MR. SCHREYER: I have no specific recollection. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 6, Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,1 07,900 for Executive Council- pass. Resotution 7, Registrations and Elect ions. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the election, I heard the remarks of the Minister over here. The question I want to deal with, though, is not so much dealin g with a particular election in 2832

Monday, May 9, 19 77 Manitoba, but dealing with the question of elections in gener al. I understand that according to our statutes, we are sup posed to revise our constituency boundaries every ten years on the basis of the off-year census, which was the 19 76 census. And it appe ars with $9,800 here, that there is no provision being made, with that amount of money in there, to carry out any attempt at least until after March 31s t, 19 78, in that respect, and I would like to ask the First Min ister if that is the intention ofthe government. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the member is correct, and I am not even sure if it is discretionary. I think it is laid down in statute so that electoral redistribution takes pla ce next year, could not take pla ce this year. And I think it would require an amendment to the Act for it to be otherwise, which means that the 19 76 census data which always has a time lag before it is really fully available, usefully available, is just now becoming available, but I don't see a time

schedule problem because under statute redistribution would not take pla ce till next year. I admit I am speak ing from recollection, but that is my recollection. Now, have I answer ed my honourable friend's question or have I sidestepped it? MR. GRAHAM: I think the First Min ister is quite correct, but I see no evidence of any appropriation of funds to cover that cost. MR.

SCHREYER: The honourable member is assu ming that this work must be done, perforce it must be done before the 31s t of March next year, and I don't think that that is our view. lt could be done at about that timing, where the bulk of the funds required would be required after the 1s t of April. If we are out by a month or two in our sense of timing on this, then at worst there would be a few thousand dollars in Special Warrant or Supplement ary Supply .. MR. GRAHAM: A further supp lementary question, Mr.

Chairman , I believe I have made a recommendation to the Legislature on previous occasions dealing with the Committee that has been establish to review electoral boundaries, which involves the Chief Electoral Officer, the Chief Ju dge, and the President of the Un iversity of Manitoba. MR. SCHREYER: You have an improvement in mind? MR.

GRAHAM: I believe I have sugge sted on previous occasions that probably a more appropriate person than the President of the Un iversity would probably be the head of the Un ion of Manitoba Muni cipalities who is probably much more knowledgeable of the Province of Manitoba than the President of the Un iversity of Manitoba. MR. SCHREYER: What do you do when you have two ideas of equal merit? I think our present arrangement is quite satisfactory. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with my honourable friend's sug gestion but I'm not sure it would be an improvement. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, there is one val id point in that I think it is a fundamental requirement of the Un ion of Manitoba Muni cipalities that the head of the union be an elected official from the Province of Man itoba, he must be a Manitoba resident. Now, I don't think that that same criteria applies when the choice is made of the President of the Univ ersity.

In fact I would say it is probably the opposite, that the President of the Univ ersity is quite often selected for his academic knowledge in other spher es and in most cases is usually a person who comes to Manitoba from other areas of the world and may not have an intimate knowledge of the geographical conditions and the demographic conditions that exist in the Province of Man itoba. MR. SCH REYER: I su ppose those arguments must have been heard and listened to and rejoined to by those who drafted the statute in the first place.

I would put forward another consideration as well for the honourable members's consideration and that is that it is conceivable that from time to time somebody active in mun icipal politics will also be very visible and known to be active in provincial partisan politics, in which case we would be immediately into a problem of psychology because the whole intent and pu rpose of the Ele ctoral Commission is to have three persons who are not demonstrably involved or in fact inv olved in current partisan politics.

Now, I'm saying that we could go for years without that being a problem and then at a given point in time it could be a very real problem. Then what would have been regarded as a reform would be looked upon as being the antithesis of it. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, am I to infer from the remarks of the First Min ister, then, that that is one of the criteria that is used in the selection of a president for a un iversity, that he not be knowledgeable and displa y any partisan politics? MR.

SCHREYER: Wel l, 1 don't know if this surprises my honourable friend but the president of a univ ersity is not chosen because of any perception as to what his partisan politics are. Ind eed, I have no basis of regarding any of the three past presidents of the university - and I limit it to three because they are the only three that I know - as having any identifiable partisan politics, which for purposes of the Ele ctoral Commission Reform Act, was I think precisely why a person holding that position was chosen. it's unlik ely that the president of a university would be actively partisan.

Not that there is anything so horrendous with being actively partisan, but not for that position. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I'll put forward this suggestion once again. I put it forward in the 2833

Monday, May 9, 19 77 past.

I have known some of the presidents of the university and it is not meant in any derogatory manner towards any of those individuals that I make this sugge stion, nor do I profess to know who will be the incoming president of the Uni on of Manitoba Municipalities - in fact the present one -I thin k that the office of the president or the chairman or whatever you profess to call him, of the Un ion of Man itoba Municip alities should be a person who is probably far more knowledgeable of the geography and makeup of the Province of Manitoba and could probably make a far greater contribution because of that knowledge, to any committee that is studying electoral bounda ries within the Province of Man itoba.

MR. SCHREYER: I think it would be fair to ask the honourable member if he has persuaded his colleagues on this point? I have kind of a suspicion that he feels strongly about a proposed reform which he hasn't necessar ily convinced his own colleagues about and I'm not so sure I should go too far along the road with him on this so quickly. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I have never attempted to convince my own colleagues of many of the proposals I put forward.

I put them forward for the consideration of the entire Members of the Legislature and once again, I throw it out again for the consideration of all Members of the Legislature. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: . Mr. Chairman, there is a suggestion, trying to reach someone who is in politics was non-partisan and one could sugge st the present Mayor of the City of Winnip eg. He's not partisan; he's not involved in politics. A MEMBER: The question is, is that normal? MR.

SPIVAK: The other question to the First Min ister, in view of what he said, can we be sure that the provincia l election will take pla ce before redistribution? MR. SCHREYER: Oh, almost certainly. MR. LYON: I think two statutes would ensur e that. MR. SCHREYER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 7. MR. LYON: 19 78-79 would be your redistribution. You could have a little bit of overlap. MR. SCHREYER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 7, Registrations and Elections. MR. LYON: I presume, Mr. Chairman, that any general election that might be contempla ted would be covered by Special Warrant? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, you see, to have put the estimated total amount in here would have been tantamount to an nouncing the election. Maybe it was overly facile on our part not to put the amount in, but there's only one occasion in which the full amount must be put it and that's in the fifth year of a Legislature. But obviously when a government calls an election in the third year, which has happened, it couldn't have been anticipated so it would have been some nomina l amount. I admit in the fourth year this is still a nominal amount but if not here it's covered by Special Warrant. MR. LYON: Do we, Mr.

Chairman, have any ball park figure that we can estimate at this stage as to what this necessary exercise in democracy will cost the taxpayer? MR. SCHREYER: A rough estimate, $1 .2 million. MR. SP IVAK: How high is that by comparison with previous years? MR. SCHREYER: In 19 73, three-quarters of a million. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: That's all I wanted to know. _ MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 7, Registrations and Elections. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: One other question, Mr. Chairman.

Does the First Min ister consider that part of his job formation program at least temporarily for the next period of time would be to further ... that would be introduced into the economy as a result of the election? MR. SCHREYER: lt would be directly highly labour intensive in relation to cost of materials. MR. SPIVAK: And would add to the job formation. MR. LYON: Would it be restricted to the same four-month period, though, Mr. Chairman, that we're concerned with. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 7: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,800 for Executive Council-pass.

The Honourable Minis ter. MR. SCHREYER: May I ask, Mr. Chairman, given that there are two sepa rate pieces of information that are requested, are we to hold these items or are we to provide them by tabling in the House? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: For my purposes, Mr. Chairman, it's not necessar y to hold the items unle ss other members of the Committee want that done. H they are tabled through the Chairman of the Committee, that would be satisfactory for my purposes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. 2834

Monday, May 9, 19 77 MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering, there are some items on the back page of the Es timates that I think - some of them come under the responsi bility of the First Min ister -t he Flood Control- Flood Control and Emergenc y Exp enditures. I wonder if the First Min ister would not want to deal with those that come under his responsibil ities now so that we can dispose of them once and for all. MR. SCHREYER: I would be delighted to deal with them.

I don'tthink they fit under any particular department and accordingly if the Honourable Member for Morris is sugges ting to take these up tomorrow, or is he sug gesting he is anxious to proceed tonight? MR. JORGENSON: I was wondering which ones the First Minis ter would want to deal with and we could deal with them right now. lt isn't that late. MR. SCHREYER: Wel l, certainly I -Flood Control and Emergency Expen ditures. They are really all of an interdepartmental nature and I supp ose can best be dealt with here, although I prefer, all things being equal, to lay this over until the next day if that's okay. MR.

JO RGENSON: I don't know what useful purpose can be served by holding them over to another time. We can dispose of them now and then you won't have to come back. MR. SCHREYER: Can we have a two minute recess. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have one more item to pass under Exec utive Council, gent lemen. Resolution 4(

a) Premier and President of the Council' s Compensa tion. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman , I believe that the Min ister of Corrections will probably want to say something about the Premier's salary. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 4(a)-p ass. Resolution 4: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7 43,800 for Executive Council-pass. That concludes the Department of Executive Counci l. The Committee will recess for two min utes. ESTIMATES - FLOOD CONTROL AND EMERG ENCY EXPENDITURES MR.

CHAIRMAN: I wo uld dir ect the attention of honourable members to Page 62 in their Es timates Books, Resolution 111, Flood Control and Emergency Exp enditures. The Honourable Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, this item, as the round figure would indicate - it's not even an estimate, it's a guesstimate; it's not even a guesstimate, it's just a contingenc y figure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: May we have, Mr. Chairman, the all-in figure for what the flooding on the Souris and the various rivers last year did cost us? MR.

SCHREYER: Yes, I believe that to the amount that you see entered, there is an additional amount of $1 .1 million, I believe. MR. LYON: So it rounded .... out at about 4.1 . MR. SCHREYER: That's province-wide, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 111 -pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 million for flood control and emergency expen ditures-pass. ESTIMATES - CANADA-MANITOBA GENERAL DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 11 2, Canada-Manitoba General Development Agreement, Plannin g Agreement. The Honourable Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, here I will remind honourable members that we have a Supplemen tary Supply, part of which relates to this very agreement. The reason, then, forth is figure is because at thetimeofthefinalization of the print Es timates, there had as yet been no sig nature on a nu mber of them, and rather than put an amount here based on something as yet unsigned, we put in this figure. And then there are additional funds in Suppleme ntary Supply now before the House. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 112 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $225,000 for Canada-Manitoba General Development Agreement. MR. SCHREYER: My comment with respect to the previous item appl ies here as wel l. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 11 2-pass. ESTIMATES - GENERAL SALARY INCREASES MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 11 3, General Sal ary Incr eases. MR.

SCHREYER: Wel l, I in all candour have to say that this is a rounded figure which we put in in order to reduce the amount of additional or Suppleme ntary Su pply, but any figure we put in here is quickly related to what the negotiations will be, and it is a dilemma that we attempt to deal with by putting in what is obviously a rounded preliminary figure. MR. LYON: Those negotiations then, Mr. Chairman, I presume are underway. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, yes. I wouldn' t hazard a guess as to when they will conclude. MR. LYON: If they conclude before the 14 th of October of 19 77, they will be under theAIB. If after, 2835

Monday, May 9, 19 77 we don't know. MR� SCHREYER: I guess that's a fair comment. But I {lon't anticipate the negotiations will stretch out that long by any means. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 11 3: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 0 million for General Sal ary Incr eases-pass. Committee rise and report. Committee rise. 2836

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Monday, May 9, 19 77 ESTIMATES - TOURISM, RECRE ATION AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): I refer members to Page 59, Resolution 10 7(b)

(1) Provincia l Park Sys tem: Management Services (

a) Sal aries $752,300.00. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Before we broke for lunch, I was briefly describing to the Min ister some of the concerns with regards to the Whiteshell area as far as the tourist facilities for overnight campers and for people that wish to spend a weekend orsomeoftheirvacation there and I was just mentioning to the Min ister that some of the problems that we a refaced with is overcrowding on the weekends and what is happen ing is, very often a husband will send out his family in the car in the morning on Friday so that they can get a proper camping spot or even I know a lot of people are going to the extent of driving down Thursday night with their family or just the heads of the house and driving down and pitching a tent and making sure that they get a spot for the weekend and then coming back with their families on Friday.

So there is a certain amount of overcrowding there and I appreciate that the Min ister has said they won't be doing any more developing as far as the Whiteshell is concerned, but I would ur ge him to re-examine that position and possibly open up some more lakes for not only the campers but also for cottage ownership. I wonder if the Min ister could tell me, a lake like Crowduck Lake, is that going to be included in the new natural park area that was implemented last year?

Before the imple mentation of that Nopiming Park, I wonder if there were any hearings held in Eastern Manit oba or anywhere with regards to the establish ment of that park. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, before I answer the questions of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, there is just one point that I wanted to clear up which was raised I sup pose in relation to accommodation within parks in general and then, of course, there was specific reference made to a facility which was dealt with separately under the Es timates and I am referring to Gull Harbour Lodge.

The Honourable Member for Wolseley spoke of a conference. Is that the one to be held May 16 -20th he was referring to? -(I nterjection)- But it was the one sponsored by the Manitoba Economic Development Fund? Yes. Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, I think that this ought to be put in its proper perspective because you will recall that the Honourable Member for Wolseley attempted to make it soound as if this was a conference being, if not organ ized directly by me, that I as Min ister either of one department or the other, either as Min ister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs or Continuin g Education and Man power, was attempting to exert my influence in getting people to congregate wherever, and in particular to get them to congregate at Gull Harbour Lodge.

He tried to make it sound as if this is some sort of a government sponsored, a government fina nced conference that is being held there under the auspi ces of a number of agencies including the Manitoba Economic Development Advisory Board and I believe he also mentioned Continuing Education was involved in the sponsorsh ip of this program. Mr.

Chairman, I think it would assist the committee tremendously ifthe honourable member were to check his facts before he would rise to speak in the House because otherwise, you know, one may run the risk of misleading the committee because neither of my departments had anything at all to do with the organization of this conference. The Ec onomic Development Advisory Board, yes. The phrase "Continuing Educa tion" if the honourable member were to have read the pamph let, - (I nterjection)- very wel l, I'll assist the Honourable Member for Wolseley to that extent.

"Spon sored by the Ma nitoba Economic Development Advisory Board in association with the Un iversity of Manitoba Division of Continuin g Educati on." But the honourable member referred to Continuin g Education as a department of mine. If the honourable member will check Hansard, he will find that he made reference to it as a department of mine, that he was referring to my Continuin g Education department and this is not it at all.

In fact, if the honourable member were to have read farther and turned to Page 7, it tells him very clearly what the Continuing Education Division is, that it is a division of the Un iversity of Manitoba and it is not a department of mine. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think honourable members ought to know that deliberate attempts at misleading the committee and lies aren't tolerated. MR. WIL SON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member state his point of privilege. MR. WILSO N: Mr.

Chairman, again, as I say, if the Min ister would defer his remarks until after he reads Hansard, he will find that in the last couple of days I have been attempting to find out if the Min ister issued a directive or any department of government issued a directive ... MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, you know as well as I do that there was no point of privilege that the honourable member had, or matter of personal privi lege. lt was simp ly an in terjection, if it is to be described in any fashion at all.

Then the honourable member, you know, he also went on to as if to imply and infer that this is a public ly funded conference of some kind. Mr. Chairman, I have no tu nds appropriated for the funding 2837

Monday, May 9, 19 77 of this conference or tor any such conference that is being held at Gull Harbour Lodge. I note on the back that the participants are asked to pay their own way - $300.00 - it's a week long conference for economics tor executives, inviting some of the top economists to conduct the seminar. Some of the experts, most of them are from Un iversity of Manitoba and they are asked to pay their own way $300.00 for tuition and $200.00 for board and lodging. Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member were to read that carefully, he will find that there is no hidden subsidy here from the public purse.

The participants pay their own way, it is a five day function, $40.00 a day for board and room and I would ass ume that that is a reasonable amount for a five day stay because, as you know and I know, if it is a package deal for a group for a period in excess of one, two or three days, then the rate drops somewhat because the operating overhead reduces with the increased length of stay.

So, I simply wanted to make those points when the Honourable Member for Wolseley spoke about accommodation within our parks to clear that point up because when he was referring to this conference, he did leave the committee with the impression that this was some conference being organized by government. But it was not organized by government at all, not at all, and each of the participants will pay their own way in the same manner as Great-West Life and many oft he banks and other organizations from the private sector who have held conferences there have paid their own way.

The public was not asked to subsidize their neighb ours across Os borne Street from Great-West Life In surance for any time that they choose to meet in a facility owned by the public and which they have and they seem to have no qualms about meeting there, neither do the banks. Now, if I may respond to the remarks and the questions raised by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, Crowduck is part of the natural resources zone of the Whiteshell Provinc ial Park and it is not in Nopiming.

Now, I can sympathize with the Honourable Member for La Veren drye, and I cannot disagree with him that on occasion, our camping facilities on weekends are taxed to the limit; in fact, from time to time, perhaps even overtaxed. lt varies with the temperature, it varies with the weather, it varies from year to year. In fact, it is difficult to predict from one weekend to the next what the attendance will be. If, a week or two hence when our parks open up, we should happen to strike on a nice weekend no doubt our parks will be crowded once again.

On the other hand, if it should rain and be cold, then they may not be crowded. In fact they may not even be filled to capacity. So, in determining the extent to which we ought to develop camping facilities in our parks, we cannot forget the fact that in mid-week, generally spea king, our camping facilities are under-utilized. So one has to draw a balance between the two and it's impossible. In fact, I don't think that we will ever have sufficient camping facilities to accommodate each and every person who wishes to camp on any particular weekend.

But to some extent we are expanding our camping facilities as I mentioned earlier, at Nopiming Park, at Black Lake, Long Lake, and an expansion of camping at Caribou Lake on the west end of Nopiming Park. So, to whatever extent may be practical and reasonable, we will expand our camping facilities. But I must repeat again that it's unl ikely that we will ever have sufficient camp grounds to accommodate each and every person who wants to go camping on a Saturday or a Sunda y, or on a weekend. Now it may be that in the years to come people's camping habits may change.

I think that over the past while winter holidays have gained popularity. The ownership of recreational vehicles is increasing which also contributes to taking people away from home in the winter, with vehicles being on the market now that can be used reasonably well during the winter season. The compressed work week will, no doubt, free up people on certain other days of the week other than just Saturdays and Sunda ys for camping. So what I'm saying is is that with the population we have in Manitoba ...

They will be doing their camping sp read over a greater number of days, perhaps over a greater number of weeks and months of the year which should, to some degree, at least balance off the pressur es that are brought to bear on our camping facilities. But to expect to be able to accommodate each and every camper who wants to spend the weekend camping, I don't know to what extent we would have to expand our camping facilities but I have no doubt that it will have to be much much more than what we presently have.

And I'm sure that the Honourable Members of the Opposition would be the first to criticize us tor doing that, if we were to do it. MR. BANMAN: I thank the Min ister for those comments. I think there is maybe a difference of opinion as far as the path that he would like to follow, and us, and of course that's part ofthething that we all have to set our priorities and all have to have a certain attack that we particularly would like to see happen.

But I would just like to say in reference to that, I would like to see more of the money that is being spent on such things as the cabins that the Min ister is building and that type of thing, spent on developing more recreational facilities in the Whiteshell. I appreciate that some people want to keep it a wilderness area. I would like to see more of t he lakes opened and I appreciate that's a point of debate and we won't resolve it here.

But, just for the record, I'd like to say that that is what I would like to see and have some of that moneys that is presently now being put into that cabin program being put in proper facilities as far as camping is concerned. Mr. Chairman, 1 think the other questions I would have would relate to park maintenance and operations and I think I'll leave those until we get down to that point. 2838

Monday, May 9, 19 77 MR. WILSON: I just wanted to wrap up, Mr. Chairman, with the comments that the Minis ter made when he said, "We'll never have enough places for people to go camping." And yet he has embarked, in the last couple of days, on his Hecla Isla nd project in which he said it was a social program to give the less fortunate low-income people a pl ace to enjoy. And yet, again, my information is that in the experi mental year last year at $1 1 .00 a night on these particular cottages at Hecla Isla nd that it was hardly the working poor that were using these facilities.

And this may be just an observation or point of debate but I don't think if you can't find enough pla ces to go camping, we on this side would like to see a reasonable approach to try to get facilities so that Man itobans could certainly go camping, if nothing else. But to try to embark on building cabins at $22,000 each is to me a wrong direction when we have such a need for people wanting to enjoy the outdoors. I would welcome the Min ister's ... - (I nterjection)- Pardon me.

Well I know the cabins at $22,000 each are $1 9 a nigh t, but the cottages at Hecla Isla nd near the hotel complex, which I had the privilege of visiting myself, I believe you said they were $1 1 a night, Mr. Min ister, and I will stand to be corrected. But the government with the availability of seemingl y a bottomless pit of taxpayers' dollars is able to build these and not have them stand on their own two feet, so the result is that very few of them ever are intended to I guess, because it is a social program to operate at a profit.

Again I think it's a matter of primary priorities which I think are not being met compared to what I think the Min ister has been enga ging in, which is a social program of maybe secondary priority.

I did try to wrap up by saying when the Min ister informed us the total cost of the entire complex was somewhere in the neighb ourhood of $9.6 or $9.7 million, they said that was a tremendous amount of money, and I was merely stating that when the Min ister stood up to say how well it was going with only an investment of $25,000 start-up money for a pre-opening campaign; that to stand up and say that it's 72 percent occupied seemed to me to indicate that obviously - people have been tellin g me that a number of government departments, government related situations have been up there, and I said that propping up by the government -I don't care if it's the Min ister or a Deputy Min ister in another department but somebody is suggesting to people -(I nterjection)- Or a university.

Somebody is sugges ting that they go up to Hecla Island. lt was just an observation and I was trying to seek information. The question I asked was a simple one, and could have been answered by a straight yes or no. Did the Min ister or anyone to his knowledge in government issue a directive ordering the government people to use Hecla Isla nd? So that was a straight yes or no. Under this

Section I'll just leave those comments be. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Tourism. MR. HANUSCHAK: In a simp le two-letter word, the answer is no. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assinib oia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple more questions beforewe get offthis ltem. l can't see where I can bring it up again. This afternoon the Min ister indicated that up to the present time there has been about 15 cottages developed on Hecla.

The hotel has an accommodation of approximately 60 units and there were somewhere in the neig hbourhood of maybe six private cabins that were probably there from before. There is two things that I wo uld like to ask the Min ister. I understand that the senior citizens get passes to the park every year, they are issued every year. I wonder if the Min ister has given any consideration to issuing permanent passes to the sen ior citizens so you don't have to go through the procedure of issuing them every year.

I believe the Province of Ontario does issue permanent passes to all its sen ior citizens and they don't have to go through the procedure of issu ing them every year. My other point is in respect to the whole Hecla Isla nd Development, the whole Provincial Park. In my opinion - and I have been there, it's a beautiful isla nd, it's a beautiful site. I think it could be one of the best in this provinc e if it's developed properly.

My only concern would be that it is much further from the City say than the Whiteshell and it may not be on the same type of transportation or highway system that we have to the Whiteshell and you may not get as many people to that park. But to have that park be really su ccessful, it would need a pretty good base of tourists in there not only on the weekends; 1 think that you need tourists there for at least three and a half months or four months of the year and perhaps during some other time.

I believe that that park has a great potential of having that but I think that park will need a base of some kind more than just the weekend sort of tourist attraction. I know that the Min ister last year or the year before, it was indicated that this park will be different than the other provincial parks and it will

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-56b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 56b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2ac056103ddadae7c03b6a8841f112b9dbdb7819

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