PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session Number 5 VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

November 27. 1975. The Rouse met at J:no p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 109 RH - I SPEAY£R: I a• pleased to velcoue to the nouse on behalf of han. members thirty-one students in grade eight from St. Patrick's in St. John's along vith Brother King vho is accompanying theM. sure all han. memhers wish a very hearty ~elcome to the students and to Brother King and hope th!!t their vbit to the House will be a~ enjoyable one and an informative one. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: The han. Minister of MUnicipal Affairs and Housing. Mr.

Speaker, I vish to announce that today,vith of Cabinet, I have issued an order dismissing from office four members presently constituting the Rural District Council of Ha.lfvay Point, B-enoit' e: Cove, John's Beach and Frenchman' e: Cove. A commission of administration has been appointed to administer ,_the affairs of the municipality comprised as follows: Mr. Kevin Hr. Gregory Chaytor, Deputy Chairman Deputy Con~enor; and Mrs. Margaret Barns.

The dismissal of the ~era of the Rural District Council resulted from the findings disclosed during the course of a municipal inspection 7which were subsequently confirmed by the Auditor General. elected Council has been dismissed because the inspection report subs~qu~nt audits disclosed substantial evidence of mismanagement of the town. The reports did not, hawever, disclose been misappropriated by either the elected councillors the staff. ~r.

Sreaker, I must emphasire that the commission of oaoda~nistr••tJlon will serve in a temporary capacity only and that in course,~en the affairs of the municipality are placed upon a proper basis,2n election will be held so that the taxpayers of the municipality can be given the opportunity to elect a new council. 279

November 27, 1975 Tape No. 110 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. KR. ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, I wish to inform the han. members of the Ho~e of Assembly about the situation in the Bay d'Espoir area that has received so much publicity recently. The people of Conne Ri~er some weeks ago undertook to blockade a forest access road • built by this government and thus prevent Ralland Forest Products Limited from harvesting timber allocated to th~ by ay depart.ent.

I refused to meet to discuss the problea ae long as the confrontation exiBted. 1 am pleased to report that last Friday the blockade was removed and 1 was then able to meet them in Coone River oa Sunday last to discuss the matter. The wood supply situation is complex and requires study. My have been compiling detailed inventory statistics for the entire area - since the Bay d'Eapoir forest management unit was established there less than a year ago.

The forest management plan for the unit will be completed this winter, hopefully by the end of March, and we will a position then to consider allocation of resources in a detailed manner. There are several wood-using industries that require supplies in­ the area and I am confident- and 1 repeat, Mr. Speaker, 1 ara confident·~ th8t there is an adequate supply of raw materials not the short-term, but for the life of the industries •. The large mill established by Ralland Forest Products is for many reasons.

It is in many ways a response by private industry Forestry Task Force Report and the new government forest policy. It is the; first mill in the province that can produce; high-~rade 1 - kiln-dried hardwood lumber and compete in the export market for this manufactured product. We have known for some yenrs n~ that this province has ~ood stands of birch that have never been utilized adequately. The use of birch standB in the area will complement than compete vith other industrie;s. 280

T8pe No. 110 NM- 2 a completely integrated operation th8t utilizes the forest resources. Softwood and hardwood are used, small llf!l'lsion ttood is salvaged as pulpvood, rmd even the sl-8bs from the are converted into a product th8t is useable in the pulp industry. We have guaranteed this company an adequate raw materials, and the small area disputed by the Conne River part of this allocation.

It is legally committed to the remains so comsitted. 1 have explained this to 1Hver people. the people of Conne River have built a large saw­ this has reee~ved substantial aftSistance from government since it as a good undertaking. They are concerned shout their supply of wood,and rightly so. Road construction this year them access to more than a million board feet and a cutting been issued to permit this harvest.

The amount of wood in !;diBJ>Ut:ed area is not in rtty opinion critical to the short-tera opet'ation River •ill, but it is critical to Ralland Forest Products at times due to road access proble~ that are ehort-tera, soft roads. discussions this morning 1 au satisfied that the amount on the area in question during the next fev months will ite our ability to solve the allocation problem some months people of Conne River that the allocatiori of are euhject to revie~ and negotiation, but that the total to Ralland Forest Products suat and will be provided. Of __ Mr.

Speaker, the sa• applies to the Conne River EnterprUee _There are adequate supplies of raw materials available in the area of both~and it becomes a matter then of allocating .~U!Ppllios on a rational and economic bsae. To do this requires inventory of the existing forest stands. This information available by the end of March, end at that time I plan to concerned and work out an allocation that will '.C)Le,lrl.y identify the future supplies for both. 281

Nnvetnber 27. 1975 Tape no. 111 HF. SPEAKEP: ~JR. St~NS: The han. f!W>.rber for Burf!eO-Bay n'Eepoir (Mr. SilrrDJna). ~r. Spellker. I would like to take a moment to reply briefly to t~c statement from the minister. vr. Speaker, this is nne thnt iR of eonRiderllhle concern to ~ by virtue of the fact that it is in my diatrict. The enterprise of the people of Conne Piver h~s been well demonstrated in the last year or so, ~ith the formation of the ronne ~ivcr Native Enterprises Company.

And indeed if you ~re to tr3ce back three or four yeare to the - indeed about three years ar,o to the study Yhich government the etudy done by the Resellrch and Productivity Council of New 'Bruns-wick- you wfll find thnt the Conne Piver conmnmity vas idetttlt1ed, ~s having the highest incidence of welfare payments in the entire Bay n'Espoir eren, the co~ity - T<fP. SPEAKEP: I wieh to drew to the attention of hon. members the rules ~ith respect to replies, not repli~s,but brief commentR ~n ministerial statements, and I am quotin~ from

Section 91 of Be•ueruesi•e' -wh:Jch is found on page 84 enrl which has been frequently referred to· in this legislature.

"When e miniRter makes e: statetnent on govem~t policy or miniRterial administration, either under routine proceedings, between_ two orders of the Cay or shortly before the adjournment of the nouse;_ it is now firmly established that the Leader of the Opposition or the ChiefB of recop.nized groups 11 - I aay add that in this Houee it has been the custom for some time that nn hon. member on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition or on behalf of the chief of group,~that such per 'ns nre entitled to ask exp1~natfons few r~~arks but no riebate is then ~llowed under ~ny Standing Order~' I think the operative point there that I wish to dr~ to the attention of han. members is that the entitlement is to ask explanations end make a few remarks and it is very clearly d~ffned.

The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir (~r. Simmon8). -~· SI~NS: Thank you.Mr. Speaker. I certainly seek your direction on this matter. I vas of the opinion or at least attempting to make a few remerks and shall continue to do so. I was ~ing the point 282

November 27, 1975 Tape 111 !B-2 that only a couple of years ago the r.onne Piver c~unity was receiving per capita more velfare than any other community Jn the Bay n'Espoir area. That is no lon~er the case. Inrleed it has, 1 believe, I do not know about the highest, but either the highest or the second highest employment rate of any of the seven co~nities in Bay D'Esroir. Thnt nchievcment, that tum-around, is brought about ler~ely by the industriousness of the people together with ftDme assistance from the federal government under the Local Employment Assistance Progr~. For these reasons, ~r.

Speaker, it is a m8tter of extreme concern that the issue - Ml!. SPEAKER: MJ<. SIMMONS: Jill• SPEAKER: 0Tder, please! - which makes the subject - Order, please! It is my npinion that the bon. gentle~n has p,one beyond t~e clearly defined limits of parlia~ntary pToceduTe as outlined :in RenuchPfme. He h&s not asked for explanations,nor asked for question for clarification. And, obviously what he is saying - cre1•a·r~•• that is a very general term but I do think the hon. gentleman ,n•nould either ask for an explanation or a question.

The remark8, if they are going to be general remarks~should 'o:bv,lou'"lv he brief. ~r. Speaker, I would submit thAt in totAl I hAve spoken tvo minutee, lmd I \JOUld submit that is very brief. TI1nt is not the point of issue. That is not the Mr. Speaker, do I have the right to make brief remsTks? dp,ht1 Order, please! I do not intend~nncl indeed the rulee prohibit ~ to enter debate with the bon. gentleman.

I believe that the re~rke are clear and readily understandable, and the hnn. gentleman not have the right to dispute the ruling from a presiding memher presiding rnel'lber doel"' not have the right to allov him to do so. Hr. Speaker, on that point of order, Sir.

November 27, 1975. Tape 112 RR - I Your Honour's rulinP; ifl quite clear and it seems to me to he eminently_ understandable. I know my colleague understands it and is certainly tiying to adhere to it. All he is attempting to do, Sir, is to make what he understands to be~and I understand to be~a few brief reaarks_ with respect to the statement delivered to the House a moment or so a~o by the han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

If Your Honour is to rule that my colleague iB making remarks which Your Honour does not consider to be brief, well that, of course, is a matter which would have to be dealt with when Your Honour sakes such a ruling. But I submit that until then my colleague should be allowed to carry on with what he is doing, which is to make a few brief remarks vith respect to the ministerial statement made by the gentleman froa Henihek. MR. ROBERT WELLS (Minister without Portfolio): To that point of order, Hr. Speaker. We have been forebearing in that matter.

We did not interfere or make any points of order on wh~t the hon. ~mber was saying. Obviously the custoM and tradition of the Oouae in good taste would indicate that a few brief remarks or a question be kept to a minute or t~o. HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the minister to the initiatives he hns taken since he took over his present port­ folio. l have had occasion to discuss the matter with him on a number of occasions and I want now publicly to commend him for his initiatives. This matt~r was brought to the attention of the previous minister on a number of occasions.

Indeed the old ifteue hae been smoldering for more than a year. And I am delighted that at last the minister has seen fit to take same init!~tives. I do hope that the matter can be straightened out to the satisfaction of all concerned as he indicates it will he. The one regretable aspect which reflects in the statement is that it hns taken so long to get a forest mana~ement plan for this particular area.

Havever, I do hope that it can b~ completed this Winter and if ao it will be certainly welcomed by all persons, all companies concerned, not only the two to which he refers, the Ralland and the Native F.nterprises,but also the number of amall savaill operators in the area who have a very real ve~tecl intereat here which should be 284

Nnvember 27, 197~. Tape 112 PH - 2 protected as these negotiations are pursued. Hr. Speaker, for the sake of clarification I wonder if the minister could tell the Hous~, Sir, whether or not MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! We are not at the proceedings for oral questions. I did not know if the ~entleman vas getting up on a point of order or a point of­ but ue are not yet at the point for oral questions. ~o. the minister's statement that I am asking now.

I would have to point out to hon. members that the brief remarks, ask questions or ask for clarification Leader of the Cpposition, the leader of other groups spok~sman, a spokesmnn for either such gentleman,Bnd the han. not fit into that category. Well, thnnk you, Hr. Speaker. But 1 would think, Sir, spokesman for this particular matter in my own group. No. Nol There is no group. No, the ruling has been made and gentlemBn who is a veteran in the Rouse knave thBt he cannot I do not see any group in the area. Hr. Speaker, for a point of information, Sir.

Does the hon. member who _1ust took his seBt, does he speak, spokesman on this particular matter for the caucus that - Order, please! This is- actually this is out of order. gentleman's question is out of order. 1 think it is fairly i5 and that is the Leader of the Opposition or the of any other ~roup mny speak, ask questions or explanation another member, another bon. member speaking on of such leader. And When the hon. gentleman spoke he spok~ on and used the right that the I.eader of the Opposition has and he on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition.

The Leader of the would be precluded, I think, from then ~ettin~ up and exercising second time. 285

November 27, 1975 Tape no, 113 Page 1 - mw PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: ~ON. H. COLLINS: (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am standing to table the annual report for the year ended May 31, 1975 of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission. MR. ROBERTS: Are there a number of copies? HR. COLLINS: Yes, Hr. Speaker, there are adequate copies for all members and the press. ANSWERS TO _QOESTlONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: HON. F. D. MOORES (Premier): Mr. Speaker, in response to the question from the member from Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) yesterday, regarding the status of power for Williams Harbour, we have been in touch with Mr. Henderson of the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission, and they are presently drawing up their plans and what they hope to do for next year. And upon obtaining furth~r inforaation, I will pass it on to the han. meaber. MR. SPEARER: The han, Minister of Education. HON. W, HOUSE Qiiniater of Education}: In response to the question yesterday from the han. aember for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary) for the extende~ day policy, the school day in vocational schools was extended from two to three hours, and we had accommodation for 740 extra people and 540 of these avail of the opportunity. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Comaunications. HON. J. MORC~H (Minister of Transportation and Cosmunications): Mr. in reply to a question asked yesterday by the bon, member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Hr. Rowe) with regarJs to the road known as Custer's Head Road, tlr.,t road was reconstructed by our own forces in my department, but there has been no contract let for the paving of that road. MR.

SPEARER: The hon, Minister of Fisheries. HON. W. CARTER (Minister of Fisheries): Mr. Speaker 1 in reply to a question put to me by the me.b~r for Eagle River(Hr, Strachan) concerning ownership of the facilities in that community, 1 should advise him that the facilities are awn~d bv the government and that negotiations are now underway to find an operator, and we are hoping that it will be in operation by next season. ?R&:

27, 1975 Tape no. 113 That is Fox Harbour. In Labudor. Th~ han. Minister of Social Services. Page 2 - 1llW Mr. Speaker, in reply for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) of re••<••rday's date, he ~anted to know vhether or not the $56 increase to people who had been paid? And the answer is yea, that it been paid to all those who qualify. Some of the cheques vent out September and the remainder in October. Also, Sir. I would like to table the answer to Question Ho. 585 -'the" Order Paper. ORAL QUESTIONS : The han. member for L8Poile. Mr. Speaker.

I would like to direct a question to the of Mines and Energy, and ask the ~inister if he can nov Rouse vhat the expected life span of the Buchans mine is be? Or is the minister in a position to supply the Bouse information at this ttme1 The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I a. not a position to inform the bon. House on this matter at tbia time have never looked into the matter. I remember it being in the Rouse last year. I aean,I will have to inquire to what information we have on it, and I will be only too to do that, and 1 will do it, but I cannot say right off the expected life span ia.

The han. member for Lewiaporte, A question, Mr. Speaker, for the han. Minieter of '"''''''P"' Affairs in connection ~ith a state=ent today, Could he Houee the names of the four people who were dismissed? The hon, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Hr. Speaker, do-not know off the top of my head the names of the people who were 28"T

November 27, 1975 T8pe no. 113 Page 3-liiW- dismiBsed from the council, and furtheruore 1 do not think it would be very appropriate to give the names here in the House. I think that we should just say, as what we have said now, and leave it at that and go on with the business of getting the municipality running on an even keel again. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~ember for Lewisporte, MR.

WHITE: Could the minister tell us whether or not criminal action or any other type of action, further to what he has already­ explained, is contemplated by his department? MR. PECKFORD: Sir, I would suggest very humbly to the han. meaber for Lewisporte (Hr, White) that he Us ten aore closely to miniateri_al­ statements, because it was clearly and explicitly stated in that statement that there was no misappropriation of funds or any other kinds of actions undertaken or done by the foreer council that would dictate any criminal action necessary. 2..88

Tape No. 114 NM- 1 The bon. Leader of the Opposition. A supplera~tary question; The bon. gentleman froa L•"''·•p~r~• asked whether any action, criminal or otherwise to be The 11inieter has dealt with the criminal aspect. I do not understand otherwise.

I cannot help it if the minister doea not understand~ We can only use the English language or French iD Let rne try again then in a supplementary; can the in:lst:er tell us vhether the department proposed to take any other and particularly civil action to follow up on the situation uncovered at - They vere dismissed. which has been uncovered at Halfway Point, B~noits Cove, minister indicate vbat further action if any is to be taken. particularly to civil action. What do yau ~ant done? All action necessary, as it, that can be taken by the department has been taken, The bon. »eelber for LaPoile.

I wonder if the Minister of Social Services, Sir, vould the Hou~e vhat the government's policy is at the .a.ent social assistance to faailies of workers who are on strike? The han. Minister of Social Services. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the government's policy baa not changed. pay social as&i8tance to people who voluntarily withdraw Supplementary to that question - If I may, it is something of a technicality but just procedure straight, if he is speaking to a supplementary, be asking a question which in fact is a Hr. Speaker, a point of order - Order, please! Order, please!

But certainly for purposes when another bon. member asks the question then in fact it qu,,ot:io,n he is asking. The rules refer to the right of a number of

November 27. 1975 Tape No. 114 supplementary questions at the discretion of the Chair~and that could become confusing if the term supplementary is to be used by other hon. meabers. The hqn, meaber for Wind•or-Buchans. 11M- 2 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. S~aker, the reaeon I roae on supplementary is that question.

I had the question or at least a question pertaining to the thing and it appliea greatly to the people in ay diatrict,and the supplementary being this to the Minister of Social Services: hov does the government reconcile the directive that no welfare will be paid to men and woaen on strike in this province with the fact that all that is required in this province to receive welfare benefits is proof of need of the recipient! MR. BRETT: This is not necessarily so, Mr. Speaker.

I adait that probably this govei'tlXIe.nt has been somewhat inconsistent, and ut:nou:gl1 I am not permitted to here I can certainly point out that so vaa the former admini5tration, most inconsiatent in this reapect, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. eember for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the ~n1ater of Justice, the Attorney General and the Acting Preaier.

Would the minister indicate to the House if a date haa yet been aet for the AtltoJ:ne; Gen~rale or the Ministers of Justice in the Atlantic Provinces to ~et to discuss th~ renewal of the RCHP contract in the Atlantic Provinces, and if so Yhen vill the meeting be heldt MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Hr. Speaker, it had been hoped to hold the aeeting in December but following the meeting of officials yesterday in Fredericton a decision vas made to hold the meeting of the four Atlantic Provinces Attorney Generate in St. John's, Newfoundland on Monday, January 5, 1976. HR.

SPEAII:ER: The bon. member for Lewis porte. MR. 1/HITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the bon. the Preaier, Could the Premier inform the House whether or not in view of the 290

November 27. 1975 Tape No. 114 11M- 3 that no Anti-inflation Review Board office will be located in Newfoundland whether or not the government plans to proteet this to Ottava7 MR. !I>ORES: Mr. Speaker, certainly ve are anxioue to aake eure that the policies of the Anti-inflation Review Board are kept up i:o s-cratch in thie province as well as anywhere else.,and for that reason ve have asked that representation and that an official outlet ~~ located here in the province. That has been done, Sir, because we cannot depend: as we have done too often in the paet,I suppose,on credibility of open line showa.

The~ han. member for Carbonear. Hr. Speaker, 1 would like to direct a queatiou to the Minister of Health. In the mini budget brought down on was decided to defer the opening of the nev Carbonear Rt&ional Could the minister be 1110re specific as to the deferred date please? The bon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I cannot be more specific. The date of of the Carbonear Hospital bas been deferred to the The bon. meeber for Port au Port. 1 would like to direct a question to the bon. Minister Affairs and Housing. 291

November 27, 1975 Tape 115 PK- 1 HB_._ ~.!'!!§!.!. Does the Water Services Division of the Depar~ent of Municipal Arra:Lrn plan this year to provide pumps and well houses for recently drilled ' wells in the District of Port au Port? !'fR_!_ ..?_P~ The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. l@_._P_~CKFORD: Hr.

Speaker, we are going to do 'What we can -eo provi~_e pumps and wall houses to as many artesian wells in all the districtac of the Province,because there has always been a lag each year fr~ the number of wells drilled to the number of wells that can be devaloJp~ and so we try and take them on a priority bases and do those that the greatest need and then try and pick up the rest of them the next Spring. There ie a lot of difficulty here around the Province in doing a lot of that, primarily, Mr.

Speitker, because a lot o_f Water Committees had indicated to the department earlier on in t~ game,even last year as well as this yur,that they 11ere prepared to just get the well drilled this year and to be prepared to have par1e~ce, and wait for another year to have a full development of it, Even_when we put a pump and a well house on the well then the distribution must be put in in uny cases, and so the three stages all become one.> There have been some real problems and ve are trying to to provide as many pump houses or pumps and well houses to aa many _ vells as ~e can vhere the need is greatest. ~~~PEAKER: The han.

Leader of the Oppositon. MR. RO~~ Mr. Spe.aker, t~hat I believe to be a supplementary, although it may be a supple.ent as Your Honour earlier indicated, ~uld the minister undertake to table, be would not have the now- to table a list shoving the number of wells drilled but not pumped or pumpable this year compared to,eay,the last ten yeara or any period he wants, because there are a certain nueber of wells throu~hout the Province that have been drilled 300 feet or 400 feet $2 thousand or $3 thousand or more ~rth but no pumps provided and no way to use the ~ells.

So would he agree to take it as notice and to ask his officials to draw up a list just shoving hov many vella were drilled this year for which pumps have not been provided and bow many wells were drilled in each, say 1 of the past five or ten years, period he vants. that were drilled but for vhich pumps Were not provided in that year? ?-Q? -~-

November 27, 1975 Tape 115 PK- 2 ~._SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. P~CKFORD: I cannot commit myself to that because that is a pretty difficult assignment and I vould have to investigate a littla further in the department to determine \Jhether in actual fact that kind of information can be forthcoming quickly like the Leader of the Opposition wants. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, a furth@r supplementary; 'if the han. gentleman cannot get it for the past fev years, surely he can get it for this year because he was the one referred to thia. :!'!!._l:!!_R~ That is argumentative. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. Member for Twillingate. Hr. Speaker, 1 wonder if the Minister of Municipal _Affairs could tell us, if it is not too early, perhaps he cannot do it until the budget for next year comes dawn, but can he tell us nov ~hether it ia the firm intention of the government to do some drilling -of artesian wells in the coming financial year? The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can say that it ia the intention of the government to continue the artesian vell programme, there ~ill more ~ellft drilled next year. no question.

But the first priority v~ar will be to try and develop those wells that already haYe tlrilled and to continue on vith more well drilling as vell. 1 just ~ntion, Hr. Speaker, in talking about artesian wells and SYste~ and so on, and a lot of wells that have not got their o~, there is an experiment under ~ay in the Province ve have been taking people off the welfare roles and putting them on di~Rin~ lin~~ in those communities vhere they do not have and where they have Water Committees to help to try and the unemployment rate and to provide employment and get ~ater great number of our people. The bon.

Member for LaPoile. Hr. Speaker, I would just like to direct a question, Sir, 293

November 27, 1975 Tapa 115 PK- 3 to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Could the minister te!J the House vhen we can expect the snowmobile regulations to be draYD up and published? MR. SPEAI'ER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. liON. J. ROUSSEAU: The wrong department, Mr. Speaker. HR~___E?~ Order, please! MR. NEARY: Who is responsible for 1nawmobiles, is it the Minister o~ Municipal Affairs? No, Highways! Transportation? No! !fR.~~RGAN: I cannot help you there.

MR. _NEARY: Well, Sir, vould the Minister of Tourias- Will the real minister plea1e stand up? lffi~~ Will the real minister pleaae stand up? Sir, would the Minister of Tourism tell the Rouse vhen the safety regulation• and other regulations governing the operation of anowmobilaa in this Province when they will be drawn up and published and gazetted? MR. sPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism. f-R. T. IIICKEY: Hr. Speaker. a oanP.r asprondsed by the government is before the government at the moment and should be ready shortly. MR. SPEAKER< The han. Member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. HR. F. B. ROWE: Hr.

Speaker, a queetion to the Premier~ In view of tbe fact that the Minister of Transportation and Communications ha& stated that no contract or agreements exist for the paving of the Custer's Head Road to Hant's Harbour- Rant's Harbour to Ctu~ter'• Head RoaQ - there !3 no contract or agreement for the paving of that road, could the Premier Rive the reason why one of his own colleagues, in fact a eabinet minister~~aw fit to put in print that that road ~auld be paved by September 30, 1975 , during the election campaigns. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 294

November 27, 1975, Tape 116, Page 1 -- apb HR. SPEAKER: Th~ question iR arRumentative, one which implies debate and the matter would be better covered in debate rather than in Oral Que at i onB • HR. F.B.RO\IF.: HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Hr, Speaker. In view of th~ faet that - Order, please~ It must be an additional question QT ~nother question. Okay, anoth~r question or an additional question~ Mr. We cannot have a supplementary to a question which h~s been declared out of order, Your Honour. MR. F.B.ROWE: Another question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker.

Willtbe­ the fact that the Preaier said that all promises ~de by his will be kept, vhat does he intend to do about the paving of road - Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Hr. Speaker, that al~o is improper and argumenta~ive. Order, please! That is what the Chair vns about to say question, ar~umentative and implies debate and is not a proper at this period in the proceedings, of the routine proceedings Questions. Good try, you knov, Hr. Speaker.

A question to the or Transportation and Communications; Would the ~inister be to table a list of all contracts that have been awarded for the of roads in this Province which have been terminated because of conditions this year and ~hich are supposed to be carried on Table a list. l-1r. E'pronker, the anS\oter to that question is no. Can the minister indicate vhy the answer is no, Hr. Speaker? Order, please: That question,too,ia out of order.

The ask the question, the rules are QUite clear, and bon. minister may answer it or he may not answer it, !ut a refusal by ans~o~er a question is not sub_1ect to debate or futher The bon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Mi>OLo>ter of Health, and try to give the minister something to get his teeth

November 27, 1975, Tape 116, Page 2-- apb into. Can the minister tell us vhen ve can expect legalization of the denturists in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I can say that there is a Committee vhic:h has been established and is looking into the ways and meana of coming up with appropriate legislation as a result of the Select Committee's report l8Bt year. I 8m expecting to get that information from the by the end of this year. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for E8gle River. MR. STRACHAN: I wish to direct a question to the Minit'lter of LD<DWitl'1al.

Development • the setting up of the Labrador Coastal Development MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industrial and Rural ueve.LD;•ment, MR. LUNDRIGAN: The concept is still under active consideration, MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Terra Nova. HR. LU~I: Hr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the the Minister of Mines end Energy. Relative to the Lower Churchill development, would the minister inform the House whether the go~ernmeint intends to proceed with th~ awarding of contracts for which tenders been called? MR. SPEAKER: ?fR. CROSBIE: The bon. the Minister of Hines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, I had planned to make a St8tement on Churchill pro.1ect tomorrow, but with reference to the Gull Hydro would not be proceeding with any contracts on the Gull Hydro site, MR. SP!Wtf.R: fiR. NEARY: The bon, the member for LaPoile. Would the Minister of Justice inform the House, Sir, there h8ve been anv ch~rges or prosecutions or convictions under Act, for compani~s that have violated the Companies Act in this Provtnco the last, say, four or five years7 MR: HICKMAN: Not that 1 am aware of, Hr. Sp~aker. NR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Burgee-Bay D'F.spoir. MR. SIMMONS: ~r.

Speaker, a question for the Minist~r of Transp<orl,al:it>n' Communications. I wonder would he indicate when the contract service from McCallum to Gaultois to nermitage for which tenders closed­ September 15, vill be awarded? 296

November 26, 1975, Tape llfi, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPF.AKF.R: MR. HORGAN: The han. the ~inieter of Transportation and Communications. Hr. SpeAker, I cannot at thie time indicate when a contract ~11 he a~arded because tenders ~ere called and bids received but my department found it difficult to analyze the bids, to evaluate them, ~inly because the tender was not called for any specific reauire~ents. For ~ample, the tender was not nsking for the eize of a boat - MR. S !lOONS : Who wrote the document? MR.

MllRGAN: - _the number of dayR the boat would travel from Hermitage to Gnultois or across to McCallum- in other words, the frequency of travel - the rnte of fare to be ch~r~ed to the neople in the 8rea or the sub8idy. And it is verv difficult to determine that kind of thin~ in an area vhhout havin~ a very intensive study done. 297

November 27, 1975 Tape 117 Nov I have aakerl the officiAls of my d~partment to do a more fntenRiVe study to determine the requirements, nu~er one, of the ~ren, look at the fare Which the residents can afford to pay and the amount of isolation if you ~ah, of these communities. When that is don~, then tenders will be recalled-or called a~ain on a specific requirement so that people can bid on a tender asking for~ special and apeeifierl requirement. So, until that is done, ~r. Speaker, there will be no tenders awnr~ed for a ferry service from Hermitage to Caultoia and Yc(':allum. ~.

SPEAKEP,: The hon. member for Burp,eo-Bay D1Espoir (Hr. Simmons). PR. StHHONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister indicate to the House who wrote the specifications that appeared in the tender doc~nt. that appeared in the paper? ~. POPGAN: Fepeat the question again. MR. SIMMONS: Would the minister indicate in view of his with the epees that nppeared, would he indicate who ~ote the specifications? They did appeAr at public expenee in the pap~r, and 1 wonder who wrote them. }~. MORGAN: ~r.

Spe~ker, I will make it clear a~ain that the bids th~t came in, for exa~ple, had different ~i~e boats, number one. Th~y indicaterl dlffPrent timeA of travel per dfty, different times of travel per week, different fares and different subsidies. I did say it is difficult to evaluate the tenders received - 1-m • SPRAKER: MR. HORGAN: _HR. SPRAKER: Orr!er, pleaae: - ~nd until we came - Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. minis~er may not have beard the question correctly but .at least as I heard it -the information now being given by the bon. minister would be nn an~r to a different question, but not the one - SOME RON. l'EMJIEPS: Hear! Hear~ HR • Sl'EAKEP.: HR. SIMMONS: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir (Hr. Simmons). ~r. ~peaker, if I may repeat the question for the minister's Jnform~tion it was, who wrote the specifications that appeared in the paper in calling the tenders? 29B

Novemh~r 27, 1975 Tape 117 MR. ROBERTS: W8s it the mi~feter's offici~lR or somebody else? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary). IB-2 ~m. NF.ARY: t-l'r, Speaker, could I put a question to the bon. the Premier, Sir? Would the hon. the Pr~mier indicate to the House if there are any l~te developments,up-to-date information on vhether ~ are going to get cable televiefon in Newfoundland before the end of the ye:ttr? -~• SPEAKER: The bon, the Premier. ~R. MOORES! Not to my knovledge, Hr.

Speaker, It ia something that intereets a fnfr number of people, but we ha~ not been advised by the CFTr. nnr did ve expect to have been advieed by them until they h~ve made a decision. I vae talking to the chairman some veeka ago immediately after the hearings here,and only to find out how long he thought before a decision would be aade~ and they were hoping Bt that time before year end. But other than that, that is very old information. I hnve no further inforftation. 1-'P. ROBERTS: Was that Chainan Juneau or Chait'IM.n Boyle? ~R. MOORES: Chainnlln Boyle. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I might ftddress it to the bon. Minister of Industrial Development, with reference to the answer he gave ay collea~ue for F.aple Piver (Yr. Strftchan): Could the minister indicate uhether the a~tfve consideration which he and his officials are giving to the Lnbrndor Coastal Development Corporation is proceeding along the linea of th£> legJehtion Wich vas tabled here in the HoWle and read in,.. only; I believe., in the last a:es!Jion7 The t. •• ,. )"lnie:ter of Industrial Development. LUNDRir~: Hr. ~peaker, yea. PORBRTS: It is ~long those lines.

There could be riots The hon. member for LftPoile {Mr. Neary). Pr. Speaker, vould the Hinister of ¥fnes Md Energy indicate to the House • Sir, nm.t 'What the government's position is on the Lloy~'s River diversion? noes the government intend to RO 299

November 27, 1975 T~tpe 117 ~head with irs original plans? R~ve they been cancelled or What is happeninR eoncerning the Lloyd's Piver diversion? _MR. SPFAKER: The han. ~iniater of Mines and F~ergy. RON. J.C. Cli.OSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that has had considerable informntion Ftven on it. When the bon. gentleman himself vas in ~overnment there w~s no information on the enviro'mo'"''' consequences of hydro ~evelopment. The position on the Lloyd'~ - }IR, NEAAY: Uone of your dirt now. ~. CROSBIE: I could not be dirty to the bon. !entleman. I notie&, Pr.

Speaker, vhile I vas gone he invited-my resignation and I ~ta in the midst now of completing it. 1 think, Your Honour, a few months ago~ after the go~rnaent mmounceci rmd reported to the public on the possibilities of de•o:lot•i the Lloyd's River diversion, it was 2nnounced that work w~ts ceasing in connection with the Lloyd's Piver diversion. That uill be and that will cause a heavy expense on the country's upkeep 1 aa wa5 explained nt the time, during the next three, four or five years.

Rut despite that fact th~ project was halted. suggestion or if vc intend to Atart it up again, it will then be nnnouncecl again nnrl those l-lho object can put forth their objections ngain and those vho support it c«n announce their support ag~tin. Rut, as at this moment, Pr. Speaker, it is as dead as the nodo~ but ~Dodo cftn always be resurrected. 1 can just assure the Rouse that if we decide to resurrect it it will be announced that bon. gentleMen will have a chance to give their opinions on But that d~cision ~s made Bnd it ia a costly one, but it is m~de and that is still the decision.

If there is any chang~, we will cert:linl v advise the Bowu~. MR. SPEAKER: ><?.. RJJBERTS: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, a question for the Premier: Could the Premier indicate to the Rouse ~ether the government intend to abolish the nepartment of PecreAtion and Pehabilitntion or whether they intend to retain it in its present depnrtmental form? t-tR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. SOD

November 27, 1975 PREMIER MOORES: A study Tape no. 118 Page 1 - I!N i~ presently being done by lhe Secrelatiat of Plnnnina and PriorlrlPQ with the ob.1ective being that the departaent will, tn llll likelihood, be abolished RR a department and be - MR. ROBERTS: And be separated out. HR. MOORES:- into divisions into other depart.ents. And, Mr. Speaker, until the final report is in, 1 vould be wrong to make a definitive tlt&teuent. But in asking an opinion, I th!O.k it is likely,. But 1 will wwait the report and the final decision before making a final cot!lllen t. MR. SPEAK!Rt MR.

ROBERTS: The Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. Could the Premier indicate when ve might expect to get the report and to have soee idea? The bon. Premier. Mr. Speaker, that a.onsat aoae other changes, we vould like to make within the next two weeks. SPEAKER: the bon. member for Burgee - Bay D1Eapoir. A question for the Minister of Industrial and Rural 1 vonder if he vould undertake to table a list of •ural Development Authority loans which have been made during tbe past two years, including in the list the purpose for which the loans or given and the amount of the individual loans?

SPEAKER: The han, Minister of Iniuatrial and Rural Development. LUHDRIGAN: The ansuer is no, Hr. Speaker. I certainly vould not vant to provide the han. member vith adverse frustrations for the next year in trying to get involved in - the answer is, no, The han. member for LaPoile. Hr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister of Health, inform the House if his department is taking any steps. to take any steps, any measures to cut down on the high < , •••• < of drugs in this Province? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh 1 oh! The han. member [or Carbonear. A question for the han, Minister of Trs.naportation and 301

November 27, 1975 Tape no, 118 Page 2 Communications, The co~truction work on the nev Carbonear bypass road has stopped, b it the minister's intention to continue or has it been shelved under the restraint progr~e? KR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Hr. Speaker, all contracts that were let, if they are for paving contracts, if work has stopped because of weather conditions, they will continue on next Spring. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Health was about to get to his feet to give me an answer only Your Honour cut him down, I think. No? Well, okAy, Sir. t 11ill try again later. Would the Minister of Public Wor~ and Services inform the House if his department has received a request from the university or the principal of the Regional College in Corner Brook to have 8 second residence built for the Regional College in Corner Brook before next year, before the college opens next Septe~~ber? HR. SPEAKER: The bon, Minister of Public Works and Services. HON. DR. T.

FARRELL (~inister of Public Wo~ks and Services): Mr. to my knowledge, no, Sir, not at this time, no formal request. HR. NEARY: Infot1Dtll7 DR. FARRELL: Well, I have bad e0111e infonal reru.rks passed about it, but that is nll, Sir, at the present time. Certainly not for next year. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS~ A question for the hon. gent~eaan frOG Bonaviata the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Could the minister indicate whether any steps have been taken to prevent a repetition of an incident which occurred on Tuesday in the St. where apprOximately eighty children vho had coee up to school in the aorn'lng on a school bus and were not able to return to their homes", they had to spend the nights- in other people's homes. And the reason given by hie officials was that there vas not enough equipment available to clear the modest amount of anov vhich had fallen that day'? 302

Nove=ber 27, 1975 Tap@ no. 118 Page 3 The han. MiniAter of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, my depar~nt is now in prepar•tion Winter m&intehance prograbme, and 1 can assure the han. gentleman that kind of situation will not reoccur,and in the n~xt two be in full gear for our Winter maintenance programme. Well. I am very pleased, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary question: In viev of the fact that come on the Northern Peninsula could we advance the and have a little actual action? There ia a foot of snow down. The han. eeaber for Terra Nova. Hr. Speaker, a question for the bon. Minister of Energy.

The ansYer to this question I do not think vas question that I asked. Could the minister if tenders called in September for cutting brush relative to the transaiasion lines from Falls to Goose Bay have been awarded? The bon. Minister of Hines and Energy. I could not answer that right off the bat, Mr. Speaker. have to ask and find out, 303

November 27, 1975. Tape 119 OPT'EPS nr TITE OAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order (3). Committe~ of Ways and Means, the adjourned debate on the bud~et. The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NF~RY! Mr. Speaker, members will recall on Tuesday the ijouee rose. Sir, I had just completed ay introductory r~rks in the budget debate, As the han. Rouse is aware, Sir, in this debate the lead off speaker for the opposition side of the Bouse I have unlimited time. Mr.

Speaker, a lot of ~mbers may have wondered hoW this came about 1 and I have heard a great deal of co~nt, Sir, both inside and outside of the Rouse of how this came about. well, benefit of the new members, Sir, who may not understand,and maybe of the old ones, Sir, who ~ay not understand, it came about, Mr. because the Leader of the Opposition Yho traditionally leads the ~1or debates on the opposition benches relinquished his to speak in the budget debate. And, of course, Mr.

Speaker. ~en Leader of the Opposition, for what reason I do not know, his pogition, of course then the heavy responsibility of leading off this mnjor debate on a matter that has arisen only once since and th.1t is bringing in supplementary estimates, the heavy then fell on my shoulders. It is not, Hr. Speaker, a matter of playing games, not at all. Sir. I do not know why the Leader of the Opposition reli••q••i•he• his opportunity to apeak. Hnybe he did not think this vas a very important subject. M'<tybe, Your Honour, he was too lazy. Maybe he was_ sick. Mayhe hP was nnt interested. I do not knov.

The leader of the old p,unrd Liheral Party has his awn peculiar way of doing things, Sir, and far be it for me to criticize him. But, Sir, l would submit to Honour that when Your Honour recogni~ed me when I rose in my place in this hon. House that I rose a~ a right. I roee becau~e I was sent here by a group of people in this Province by secret ballot and I have the right to speak whenever I deem necessary in accordance with the rules and regulations of this hon. House and that is precisely what I am doinl!•' Sir. If other arrangements, Mr. Speaker, ~ere to be made then they 304

Novemher ?.7, lr'f7'i. Tape 119 RH - 2 have heen maJe \.;ith prior consultation, with all the parties represented tn this House. The makeup of the House nOW', Sir, is a little bit differPnr thnn it used to he, and when arrangements are being madaJ Leader of the Opposition wishes to relinquish his opportunity in a dehate such a~ the one that is before the Rouse now, to delegate that responsibility to some Johnnie-come­ Junior member of his caucus then it should be done, , it should be done with - Hear! !lear! Order~ Order~ It should be done, Mr.

Speaker, with prior consultation parties that are represented in the Uouse. You have the T.iheral Pnrty. You have the leader of the Liberal Reform­ down here you have the leader of the Independent Liheralft And so. Hr. Speaker, that is why I am in my second and a half hours now speaking in this debate because Mr. Speaker, that it is one of the most important matt~rs that been presented before this House and it is not &omething that be brushed off on some insubordinate, or some junior member~ _!would have expected, Sir, and I was disappointed that the 305

No~ember 27, 1975 Tape No. 120 liM - 1 ~. NEARY: Leader of the official Opposition in this House did not lead off this debate and set the tone and set the trend for the ~era of this bon. House, especially, Sir, the newer members ~o are probably frightened to death to get up to aake a 8peech, probably shivering and skaking in their shoes like I vas the first time t came into this House. The first speech I remember I made in this bon. House - HR. DOODY: 1972. MR. NEARY: No,it was not in 1972. It vas 1962 and when I finished 1J1 HON. MEMBER: Over in the other corner. MR.

NEARY: Education is right now, just inside the rail,and I aa after the House, one side, coming down the other and now I am back to the rail again. When I finished my speech that day, it vas one of the pooreat efforts that I had ever made in my life._ I thought that I was a little bit experienced in public speaking, knocked around the trade union movement and so forth. t got a note from Tlt'f former boss, the Prea.ier of the day.

He sent note and I still have it home, I gave it to one of BY kids to put- " in their scrapbook, and on it he had, Steve, that was speeches I have ever heard in this HoU8e; 1 Nov he aay to flatter me. HR. DOODY: No~ HR. NEARY: He may have been trying to prop me up beca118e 1 felt I had let MYSelf down, I was so nervous. I was not quite as as the Minister of Finance vae on Monday when he. brought in that mini budget. MR. DOODY: Wait until you bring yours in. MR. NEARY: And, Sir, if I had to bring in a document like that be pretty nervous too. But I was not quite that nervoU! when I made my first speech - MR.

DOODY: You would be up and dawn the House - 306

Tape No. 120 NH- 2 But 1 certainly did. Sir, I certainly did appreciate note and I shall never forget it. And you know, Speaker, that when I spoke in this hon, House day the same gentleman \lho is nov not of -chis Province - went out of the Hollfle, has now COl!l!le back Houae again- had that little kind word again, Sir. He baa He called ae over yesterday afternoon vhen the Bouae he eaid, "You knov Steve," he said, "that vas one: Of the fineat­ that I have e-ver heard in this Houee.

Your aaterlal," he 'Vas excellent, There is only one thing I disagree with you that was the fact that the university did disclose hud~et, 11 He said, 11 1 forced them too." 1 said, "Well, Mr. Preaier, 11 I alvays call him Hr.

Premier, 1 said, "I beg to differ trlth but 1 do not think they did." And of course the argument is He thin~ that they did, I do not think that they the point I am making is that here he vas again ready to bouquec,pass me along probably a badly needed boost to my because here I am, all alone dawn here, fighting the battle of of this provinc~, a big responaibiltty_ Sir, responsibility because the ordinary people of this province to fight their battles for them. I appreciate the kind remar~. not only of the former Premier th~ other gentlemen who ca~ to me after that apeech on 1 must confess, Mr.

Speaker, that I thought it vas one of my Although there V&B a lot of interruptions in it and I wait to see Han saL .t because th~ interruptions were calling fast furi'"'"• Sir, were coll'ling hot and heavy from the gov~rnment aide. Mr. Speaker, Your Honour will remember that 1 said before reconvened that I would resist, and 1 would deflate any attempt of the han, House to get dovn to character aaaaeainationa 1 said, Sir, that this bon. Houee should have zeroed problems and not the personalities or the individuals and that 307

November 27, 1975 Tape No. 120 NH- J is what I attempted to do on Tuesday. And I must congratulate Your Honour so far on the way this House has progressed this session. The atmosphere is completely changed although I did not hear nll of the speech that was eade yesterday, Sir. I understand there were a few low blows struck at personalities. That is most unfot'tunate, Sir, becat18e relfteaber, Mr. Speaker, that I aade a solemn promise, I gave the people of this province ey word of honour that I would peraonally resist that sort of thing and deflate any att~t of any other member in this bon. House who thinke this Assembly 308

November 27, 1975. Tape 121 Rl! - 1 is for clowning around and making fun of they vay people speak, whether they are from Upper Island Cove or fr0t11 LaPoile or fr01n Bell Island 'or wherever they are from. You knm~, -we are not all blessed, Mr. with high education. Ye did not all have it within our vithin our power, Sir, to be sent off to boarding school when ve were little boy~ in short pants. Some o~ us had to get out world, Sir, and work for a living and work our way up and get on the head and kicked around and knocked down, A.~ HON. KEMBER: In n fishing boat. NEARY: Not in a fishing boat.

I did not -well, my friend D4Y it in a fishing boat. I did it for a mlning company. The I had v~s loadin~ and unloading a truck delivering stores to And I did not have the opportunity, Sir, to be sent off to But I conaider myself as good as any man in this hon. I have had to YOrk my way up and God only knows it has been battle. I have had to fight as well as other members, I am the only one, There are other members in this hon. House who have to fight insurmountable odds to get Where they are and if somebody not like their accent I wnuld say that is tough.

They may be better They may be more brainier end they may have a better contribution this House than all those high mucky­ who hRV~ their certificatP8 plastered on their wall Who think end that they ovn this Province. Well, Sir, ~ot news for that crowd, The revolution, the revolution, Sir, place in this Province. And thank God there are Ordinary people n~ in the House than there used to be. But we have not got enough fishermen and enou~h farmers and enough truck and enou~h office workers and enou~h of the ordinary rank and are getting there. The make-up of the House is much than it Was.

And when ve change the legislation so that public purse, the public treasury will pay some of the election it will even change more drastically, Sir, because everybody 309

November 27, 197S. Tape 121 ~ill he ahle to seek public office

whereas naw,as my han. fri~nd former boss, the 1nemher for Twlllin~ate,has pointed out eo often,. have to depend on the rich people. You have to depend on the on the welfare of those ~o have the money in order to candidate in an election and get into this han. House. That is one thing in the Throne Speech I must say glad to hear on opening day, that there is going to be legislation change that in the next session.

So I hope that we have eeen the last time that we have ~one through the last election when members have to go around begging and borrowing a few dollars to pay for_ th~ir election expenses, to run as a candidate in a free that they can become members of the legislature and do something their country. So, Hr. Speaker, I consider it to b~ a very gr~at honour and Tuesday for me to be the one to lead off the debat~ on the side of the House. And I ~ant to say, Mr.

Speaker, and I want thiR abundantly clear, that if the tradition of the Hous~ had been_ followed~ and there had been no monkey business, no fiddlin~ around, and there had been prior consultation with all the parties in this hon. Jlouse. Sir, I vould have recognized the fact that it was the­ of the L~ader of the Opposition in keeping with tradition to lead this great debate. I would have even, Sir, considered giving speaking time to the former leader of the government in this the member for Tvillingate. If he had risen in his place I would declined.

I might have even declined in favour of lady that we have in this han. House, Sir, for the first since- well, long bcf1,re r:nnfederation, the second ttme I believe, we h<~ve a lady with us. But nobody else, Sir. I hl!ve much pride~and I think that I have as ~tch to offer,l!nd I think that can say as much,~nd I think th<~t I can make as aany good points,and I think my speech 310

Novemb~r 27. 1975 Tape 122 IB-1 Yill be as good ,as any oth~r thst could be mad!!! in leading off this debate. I hope, Sir, that I will set a trend for this hon. side of the House, especially for the newer ~hers who probably do not reali%e what it is all shout. But, 1 have to repeat, Sir, to the ne~er members th8t in s major debate, a .ajar debate like the one we are in now, it is the Prender on the govern.ent aide and the Leader of the official Opposition that carries the ball and seta the example, sets the trend.

Nov, Sir, that responsibility has fallen On my shoulders and I will try to do the best I ~an this afternoon to forward, Sir, the views of the members on this aide of the House. fo'r. Speaker, there were l!l number of exl!lmples of extravagance waste in the estimatea that I pointed out the other day. t ae goin~ to go over them again, Sir, and I am not going to devote -~on mch more t!IIM! talking about the extravag~mce and the wute.,and -~h_ey are numerous in the estimates, Hr. Speaker, numerous.

But, Sir, ~ne thing that I h~ve to mention here thia afternoon - I am not g~ing to talk about the Premier's gs.a guuling Cadillac. Maybe, if the Premier wanted to show the people of this Province that is genuine and sincere in belt tightening~retrenchment, ' ,cutl>ac,k•, thAt there Yill have to be harsh meae:urea, it might be a Sir, if the han. the Premier got rid of that big to conserve enerp;y nnd drive around in a Volkswagen Rabbit. Sir?

It vould be R good example for the rest of the people would show beyond any doubt that the ~vernment not clowning around in this matter of belt tightening But the one point J wnnt to talk about, Sir, is that while belt tighteninR, retrenchment and cutbacks of and asking the ordinary people of this Province to make of a8crifices, you see all kinds of expenaive furniture into Cnnfederation Building. Same of the new ministers some of the old ones too, Sir, that have been transferred department to another feel-that it 1~ a sort of a status to have a posh, luxurious office, and there are all kinda of 311

November 27, 1975 Tape 122 reclin~rs nncl chesterfields ~nd Bettees Bnd ~nt they call aver ln - MR. J){}()DY: !'1'. NEARY: Where:7 romin~ into the ronfederat!on Building! Where, ~r. Speaker? All the minister h~s to do is go and look around him, Orapes, new drapes are being put up to windows practically everv day, wall to wall carpetin~, new desks, mahogany desks. 1 remember Vhen I first becBme Mi~ister of Social Services. The minister before me,~o is nov the Leader of the officiBl Opposition, took his desk with him when he went, moved it dovn on the main floor, down in the DepArtment of Health.

I did not go out and buy a nev I vas ~iven n desk thnt was owned or used by the late Dr. MeGrath. That desk, Sir, I used ri~ht up to the time that we ~ot thrown out and the P.C.'s took over. So the hon. the member for Twillingate yesterday quite ~i~htly pointed out that if ve are going to talk about retreneh~nt and cutbacks, well let us be serious about it and let us not atart talking about renting more office space and building up ~re empires and letting the bureaucrats expand out into, I think it is fourteen now buildings the government offices are in, i' 312

No,reelber 27, 1975 Tape no. 123 Page 1 - uw it fifteen, then sixteen and the next thing you knov you are thirty. Let us be serious about it, Sir, and Premier put his foot dovn and -lay dmm the lsw and say, of this expensive furniture and wall to ~all carpeting and exper,sJlve drapes and expensive paint for your offices, Mr. Speaker, there were tvo or three things mentiorred in the budget by the Minister of Finance that concerned very much, Sir. It concerned ee so much, Mr. Speaker, to put through several calls to Ottawa to find out whether statements that were made by the minister were correct. ~~fist ~tter.

Sir. that I want to deal with is the aatter ftquali~ation payments to Newfoundland in the current fiscal The minister stated, Sir, in hie budget that the equali%ation to Newfoundland in this current fiscal year ~ere ~oing to cut by $15 million. They were going to be cut 1 the minister said 1 $15 million. Well, Sir, I vant to tell this bon. House that Treasury Board officials in Ottawa were shocked and amazed disappointed and upset to hear the Minister of Finance in this make that statement.

And they denied it and said that it is and it is an insane statement to put in the budget that the of Canada - as he tried to leBve the impression - that the of Canada, Uncle Ottawa, ~as going to cut the equali~ation to Newfoundland this year by $15 million. What happened in fact, Hr.

Speaker, vas that the former Minister of Finance March overestimated, based his figures on the WTong inforaation, it is not a cut, Sir, it is an error in judgement on the part former Minister of Finance and on the part of the administration. stay, because I got a fev things I vant to about in connection with Intergovernmental Affairs eo I hope sinister will stay around for awhile. I will not ask for his this afternoon, but I will come pretty close. How long are you going to s~eak? Oh, t will not be very long- another four or five days, probably. 313

November 27, 1975 Tape no, 123 Page 2 - mw Mr. Speaker, do you know the record, I think, for speaking in this House is held by the bon. aember for TwillinKate (Mr. Smallwood) who ~poke for five days once, five full days on the fisheries, on one subject, on the fisheries. HR. HURI'I!Y : Fifteen out of seventy-five days. HR. NEARY: Oh! No, I only got about a few topics. I could do it, Sir. I will tell you, Mr.

Speaker, all the historians and all the people who follow politics in this Province have now gone to the history books to see if 1 have created a precedent by being the lead off speaker in a major debate in the being an Independent Liberal member, and I say Liberal, big 11L." You know, Hr. Speaker, I aay even outdo the foraaer Pr.,.ie:r. 1 aay even, Sir, make the Guinesa Book of World Recorda when they finished their research. Certainly I believe it is the first in the history of Newfoundland that a leader of an Independent Party opened up the debate, ~ut, Hr.

Speaker, getting back to the equalization grants, Sir. So far this year, Hr. Speaker, this Province has received $194 million in equalization payments from the Governeent_ Canada. This latest figure, Hr. Speaker, is baaed upon a review that was done no later than September past, a month and & half months ago. And the boo, Minister of Finance knows, and if he not know, 1 will tell him now. he should know 314

November 27, 1975. Tape 124 RH - I that equalization ravments are not a s~t amount. They could vary. They could go up or dawn. It is a v~ry complicated procedure, 8 very complicated formula. I do not intend to ~o into it but it depends on the amount of revenue that is taken in hy all the Provinces, not only Newfoundland. That is right, Sir. And then it is revi~~d, I believe. three or four times a year. So how can the minister say it has been cut by $15 million? MR. DOODY: No, I ~aid it was $15 million less than I had hoped for. MR.

NEARY: The minister left the impression, Sir, and implied, left the impression in the minds of the people that Ottawa was cutting it. No, no, I did not, Sir. NEARY: No? But anyway, Sir, not only that, Sir, but the mJlnl:ster could not even make the statement that it is going to be it u.y not be $15 million less. It could be $15 muiion more.

The $194 million already received was a result of a review as of ,S~ptember of this year, and in Janll8ry, Sir, a month and 8 half from n-OW or lees than a month and a half from now, enother review vill take p13ce follo~ng uhich the payments could be increased or decreased. is grossly unfair. Sir, for the minister to leave the that Ottaw~ had sliced off $15 million off equali~Rtion to the Province thi~ year. Order, pl~ase! On a point of order.

I think if the han. gentleman gottPn the impression,or at least I would think he ~ott£'n the impression,that I was trying to mislead the of the Province or thP people of anywhere that we were sliced million off vhat Ottswa owed us. That wa~ not what I 8aid and it I intended. I said we ~ot some $15 million less than we get. And I Rm quite familiar with the equalization so is my hon. friend across the House. I did not meRn 315 ' '

Hovember 27, ] 975. Tape 124 RH - 2 to mislead the House or to misle3.d the puhlic. And I vant to rMke a ~~tter of record that this is a very important ~tter with me. Hiareprenentstion in the House of Assembly is a very important point­ and is one that I have never been guilty of, Sir, and hop~ I nev~r will be. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The Chair will take thoae remarks ae a point of explanation rather than a point of order. I think it ie reason8ble to take the view that there was a misunderstanding bet~en two hon. members. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. the han. Minister of Finance juut made- same statement again.

Hayhe I am not hearing him properly but the mini~ter eaid we got $15 million less this year than we got last year. I!R. DOODY: Less than we had hoped for. HR. NEARY: Than we had hoped for. We got $15 million less this y~ar than we had hoped for. HR. DOODY: Than we had hoped to get this year. SOHF. HON. MEMBERS: Oh~ Oh! HR. SMALLWOOD: Hoped for _and budgeted for. HR. DOODY: Right. AN HON. HEMBER: Hoped for and budg~ted for. MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, Hr. Speaker, the point - MR. DOODY: l ~auld like to be able to help you but - HR.

NEARY: I know what the hon. minister is saying, Sir, but the point that I am making is this. HR. DOODY: What? tm. NEARY: That we At111 have, Sir, in this current fiscal year,~- Rtill have five months to go and that situation could change •"••••••'llv over the next four or five months and instead of bein~ dawn it be up. T.ast year we only received $182 million in equalization P•Y'"ent:S> This year so far we have got $194 million and it could be much more that. 316

Nove~~r 27, 1975. Tape 124 RH - J Anoth~r statement 1 Sir, in the budget debate that concerned me very much was the minist~r'~ reference to DREE. Maybe he can straighten me out on this one. HR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, before my hon. friend gets even -are confused on DREE than he is on this one, perhaps for the sake of the Tecor~ of the hon. House and the people who are listening I should maybe refer the hon. House to page four of the budget speech and I quote, Sir, - lfR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, ia the hon. minister ~king a point of order or is he asking me a question? MR.

DOODY: I am raising a point of personal privilege because I have been, perhaps, indirectly accused of misleading the Bouse and the public and this is certainly a matter of grave concern to me, and one I think that is of importance to this House. And it says here, Sir, ~· With a general slowdown of the national economy and with taxation changes in Quebf'!c, Ontario and Alberta, we haye been advised b~ the r~vernment of Canada that our equalization entitlements will be ~J94,200,noo or $15,800,000 less than what we had originally budgeted." -~-did not say that we were sliced.

We did not say that Ottawa did anything wrong to us. We did not say- we said that we got $15,800,000 :less- -than we had budgeted for. With great respect, Sir, that is the point that I think has to b~ made in the record. 317

Nnvember 27, 1975 Tape No. 125 NM- 1 t!R. DOODY: snarled up. No~, Sir, he can proceed with Retting the DREE bit MR. HEART: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about DREE for a few moments, Sir. Last year this government signed a ten year DREE agreement.! believe for $100 million and, Mr. Speaker, I am told by the Ottawa people that another agreement and I believe the ein!ster or somebody in the llouse hinted at this there laat w~ek, anoth~r agreement is to be signed either in December or in January for another $70 million. Now, Mr.

Speaker, nothing wrong with that, nothing vrong with that, Sir, Ottawa again pouring it into the province through the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion. But, Sir, what alar.c!d ~ about my discussiona with the Ottawa people was the fact- and thia m~rely confirma, Sir, what we have been saying on thia aide of the House for months and .anths past- that the province is in serious financial difficulties, that the province is having very, very seve~ financial ptnble~.

We have been saying that both inside the House and outside the House and this was confirmed, Sir, in my discussions with the Ottawa people, that the government now, even before they have ~otten their new DREE agreement, and I not prepared to aake a eate,golric:al.( stntement on this, Sir, but I can only repeat what I was told that concerns ae very muchJand the minister may be able to put ay mind at ease and I hope that he c~n - t\R, DOODY: I ~ould like to try. It ie not going to be easy. MR. NEARY: No, well it may not be easy - MR. DOODY: !t ia a matter of cind. MR.

NEARY: - but I am told that the government ia n~ asking the Govern.ment of Cll.nada-not for progress paytft!!nts- are asking for advance payments on DREE money before it is actually spent, or before the work is even on stream. It aeeme to be a little bit odd, Sir, and a little bit unusual. If it is true, if it is indeed true, Sir, and I do not see the minister leaping to his feet to deny it - NR. DOODY: Excuse me, Hr. Speaker, I am leaping to ay feet - 318

November 27, 1975 Tape No.l25 NM- 2 HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. NEARY: So, Sir, 1 hope that the minister will set the record straight on that particular aatter. Is this confiraation that the province is bankrupt? ~. DOODY: You have not gotten to the point yet. MR. NEARY: The bon. ainister was not lietening.

The point 18 that the province, the MinUter of Finance, Sir, his colleague the Minister of lntergovernaental Affairs, are asking the Covernaent of Canada to follow a most unusual procedure and pay eoney to the province on DREE projects before the work is even started ~r before it_ even gets on stream. We are only trying to get soae of our mrn IDOney baek. The minister will have an opportunity to clarify it. I a question to the minister because - - when I uke my remarks.

Yea, when tl{e lliniater tuke.s his remarks he vUl have llllple to - It is going to take you a while to get the equalization ;llin.g:ot·raJ.ghtened out. No, Sir, I got the equalization payment straightened out. Okay. Carry on. I 8Dt it straightened out to the extent, Mr. Speaker, minister better start doing soae pretty fancyfoot work in tpJca1.n1.ng his statement to Ottawa. They are pretty disturbed,_ pretty about the impression. I vas th~re yesterday and they seemed to be quite aaiable. Yes well maybe they did, maybe the minister was up there trying money that I vaS talking about. Mr.

Speaker, go on and on and talk about the Ottawa situation. I vill merely t~ one other example, and tbe minister is very familiar with this there are other ministers in the House probably more fa.dliar,and that to do, Sir, with Eastern Provincial Airways. Heabers will recall during the election (if I can find my notes her~ the election, 319 I

November 27, 1975 Tape 126 PI< - i Sir, the Prellier announced that Eastern Provincial Airways were-­ goinR to be p,iven a loan of $3 million, $3 million,of which $500,000 would come from the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and $2.5 million would come from DREE. AN RON. M.t.MBER: A loan or • guarantee? HR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? A loan or a p,uarantee?t do not> care what it is, Sir. 1 am talking about the procedure, the po•<>t1,CI overtones, the political backlash to that whole matter of this $3 lft.illion for Eastern Provincial Airways to expand their operatioli'--in Gander.

MR._~ They should not be in Gander? HR. NEARY: The announcement was made, Sir, the bon. the before approTal was granted by DREE. And the approval baa not granted to this day, yet Eastern Provincial Airwaya have their $3 million, and the Province, poor old N~foundland,is expecting, Ottawa to refund $2.5 adllion of it via the Department of Regionaf and Economic Expansion. There is no guarantee, Sir, that Nevfound.lal~< will ever get that money. I hope they do. I know that negotiatiOns are going on at this very moment to try and get this $2.5 million back into the public treasury.

Maybe Ottawa is stalliag,maybe they are being stubborn now, because the announcement during a political campaign. There 1a no glory, there is no honourj···· there is no advantage to Ott!rW'a ruahing it up 1 maybe they are l<a.Lu.ng it. I do not know what the reason is. But I can tell you this, -Mr.

Speaker, and any of the gentlemen who are sitting in this Bouse vho sat in the House of Commons and who moved around Ottawa know that are pretty upset in Ottawa that the Province went ahead and did on its own,blindly"without approval of DREE, and are now !lOre or less trying to force the Deparrment of Regional and Economic Expansion into coughing up the $2.5 million. Sir, I hope- Hr. Speaker, I hope that the Province is successful and that we do get that $2.5 million back.

But let it be a lesson, Sir, to the ministers in the future 1 and the Premier eepecially,not to be going around making announcement& about things before they are finalized. Ottawa can only stomach a certain amount of that. They can only put up with a certain amount of it, and

November 27, 1975 Tape 126 PIC- 2 they will rebel, and they will give the Province a little the wrist. And I would suggest that is probably what ia in this cue. They were e!Sibarrassed over the whole thing, have jeopardized our position to collect that $2.5 Somehow or other I do not believe that it will, I hope it the Province cannot afford it. And certainly EPA will it back, They vill. Will they? How much are they into the ProVince for uow? · Ask your buddies~ They cannot even - well I should not say that - (DR. COLLfNS): Order, please! I would like to find out if they - Order, please!

The bon. ae.ber will re&arks to the Ch~r, please~ Thank you, Your Honour. I do not know, Sir, I would an update on the E!A outstanding debts. They borrowed, $10.5 Million of the tax:payere II!IO'MY• Ona of the lut that the former administration did in 1971 before ve got the vas to approve a $10.5 million loan via the - vas it the un•ll••nd financing? What was the nAIIe of that? NtDC - Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation. Newfoundland Industrial Developsent Corporation, I thank Sir. Any time you need help, Sir. $10.5 ruillion.

They were already into the government for and they wanted to overhaul their jets and buy a couple so they refinanced the ~hole operation by borrowing another or $10.5 million from the public treasury. I do not know Meting their cDIIIIdtmeats and their obligation!! or not. They are. Well,probably they are, but I do kn~ this, Sir~ there is everybody knows it, that for the firet half of this year they in the red and they have had to cut their schedules. 321 I '

November 27. 1975 Tape 126 PR- 3 _MR._~J~ They could have cut a lot of people in downto~ Gander, if you prefer that. 322

Nove<mber 27, 1975 T11~ no. 127 IB-1 Mr. NEARY: T rom comin~ to that, ~r. Speaker. I am cominR to that if the minister wUJ only give rre a ch~~:nce. They \~ere not very concerned about Gander when they allowed F.PA to spend $5.8 eillion over in Halife.z to huild a training Md Nintenance center. Wheire was the minister then7 And, 1-fr. Speaker, is the Rouse aware th11t $3 million of that is coming from nREE7 The govern~nt of Nova Scotia ller,otiated the proposition.

This Province did not have what it tAkes, ,_Sir, to negotiate with F:PA to get that training center !!lld maintenance c¢nter out in r.nncler, out in my friend's district, the district of and the minister hi~~elf on the b~Ard of directors of-Eastern Airways-without pay, so he tells .e~ I take his wOrd foi They allowed that tr11ining center to be put over in Halifax. would say it is more than the thin end of the wedge that they Tt is the blunt end, and I ~uld not be one bit but resulting from that blunder, that colossal blunder pilrt of the administration that you are likely to see- more· EPA operntions shifted over to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Our it, Sir! We started it, ue own it~ The former this Province helped the thing ~et started, put public it. And, then they alloWed - all they had to dO wa-s the l~w and say, look you are not putting it over there. They say, ~ell, you kn~ we ere coneolidatin8 our operatiOn. their operetion! Consolidate it in Newfoundland. We We are providing a service for the Atlantic Provinces Tr started off as an airline to eervice Labrador. right, Sir, to ~~rvice Labrador.

There was no Yay that get in and out of the 16land of Ne~foundland to labrador. come in from the other end, Quebec Air, and the Province could do busines~ in Montreal but not Newfoundland. So, take steps to try to correct that. So we built up this brother of the ~inister of Min~s vas chairmAn of the board of directors. We built it up expense of the people of the Province. When the time came, ~r. Speaker, to renp the benefits, to big train1n~ center aod a maintenance center, vhere do you think 3~3

L -- November 27, 1975 Tape no. 127 IB-2. thfA p.:nvernfl!ent lE',t it p.o? They let lt ~o by default, I have talked to the people over fn Halifax. The govern~nt of Nova Scotia­ had no competition as far ~s one province or the other gettinr that maintenance center. There were no hard-nosed ne~otiations, no layinR­ do-....n. of the law to Eastern Provincial Airways, to say, you mu.Bt build it in Newfoundland. And, ~r. Speaker, from what I am told it was economically feasible to build it in thh Province jw:t as lMll aa in Nova Scotill. Ah, the minister shake~ hie head.

Wel_l, Sir, I have experts and they are just aa good as experts as the ~iniater. They are. They are. I am prepared to put my experts up a~ainat the mlnlat~ experts any ti-me. MR. DOODY: I know. That ia why y~u head~d for L&Poile. MR. NEARY: Ah, Hr. Speaker, you havl! to get an eppointment over on Bell tslend now to see the Hiniater of Finance. He hes come a long wsy since he had his 8rm down in the pickle barrel. ~. noDDY: That iR thl! first time you mentioned that in the speech. ~.NEARY: Yes, that is riRht. So, Hr.

Speaker, when they hed the opportunity to do oomethin:g for Newfoundland they lost out to Nova Scotia, and $3 million of tbe $5.8 million coming fro~ DPEE. The administration should be ashaae~ of themselves, Sir. Now when EPA csme along looking for $3 mill!~_ to beef up its operation in - and you know, ~r. Speaker, I am not quite clear, J ~not really quite clear yet on Vhat that loen or guarAntee is for. What is it for? 324

Noveaber 27, 1975 Tape no. 128 Page 1 - IN There has been no drastic change in the operatio~1 in Gander. Is the money being used;or any portion of it being used, or any of the interest on it being used to maintain, to look after the operations of the airline, to take care of their deficit? No? Well, let us hear the minister tell us when he gets an opportunity to speak in this han. House. You knQw, Mr. Speaker, it may have been a grandiose scheme, Sir. People may have thought that it was great for Newfoundland to own its own airline and to look after the Atlantic and Montreal.

I am one of these people who did not think great ides unless, Mr. Speaker, the Government of Nova Scotia, of Prince Edward Island and the Government of New Brun,ooJlck kicked in, kicked in their share, apart from the assistance grants they get from Ottava. Let them kick in and pick up for this airline. Why should poor old Newfoundland, of the pnor of .the four Atlantic Provinces, vhy should the ones to lash it out to EPA when we are servicing region, the Maritimes, providing them with an air service? Prince Edward Island theY never had an air service until it to them. But they did not put anything into it.

They are scott free. We 8hould help the rest of Canada when w~ can. Help the rest of Canada? By all mean8, Sir, help Canada. Can little Newfoundland afford that kind of build up ,, part of the eJtpire"and the f&lily C01Dpact? I any. no, and before any more grants and aesi8tance let the other provinces kick in. Oh! They are putting and maintenance centre over in Halifax, let Halifax cash. the do-re-me the 8pondoolics.We have not got it here. lucky if we can get that $2.5 million back from DREE. Mr. Speaker, enough on that topic, Sir. Hr.

Speaker, of Mine~ and Energy is out of his seat at the moment. he is within liateninR distance of what I aa about to say. 325

November 27, 1975 Tape no. 128 Page 2 - mw During my deliberations,my discussions,- and 1 am glad ve had Private Members 1 Day yesterday, Sir, which gave me an opportunity to do a little research, to do n little fact finding. And 1 vant the Minister of Finance to tell this House ~ether or not the information that I have received f~ Ottava is correct and that is, Hr. Speaker, in connection, Sir, vith the aaounts of money that are supposed to be turned over to this Province by the GovernaeDt of Canada for loss of gear in the last year?

I do not know if members are aware of it.or not, Sir, but this programme, the money for this programme, coaes from the Government of Canada, via a programme called, the Federal Natural Disaster Fund, the Federal Natural Disaster formula. And every time we get in trouble here and there are losses of gear, Ottawa has to declare it more or leaa a natural disaster and that is hov funds are .ade available to the Province. The first $1 per capita ~ to be put up by the Province of Newfoundland.

So that means right off the bat, before Ne~foundl~nd fishermen or Newfoundland, as s Province csn qualify, $500,000 has to be pot up by the Province. 326

November 27, 1975 Tape no. 129 Page 1 - mw Now, Sir, T ~m told that Ottawa at this moment owe~ the Province of Newfoundland, under this Federal N&tural Disaster fo~la, owes the Province of Newfoundland somewhere in the vicinity of $4 million to $5 •illion. The Governnent of Newfoundland is reimbursed only, Mr. Speaker, when they submit their bills, sub•it ___ th_eir audited accounts to the Government of Carutda. They have not beea sub•itting their accounts regularly, Mr. s~~ker, and the Gqvernment of Canada Supposedly is in arrears to the Governaent of Newfoundland to the tune of $4 ~illion.

But that is not the alarmin~ nart of it, Sir, ~!though that is bad enough. My Ottawa i~~orsant~ lead me to believe' that because of the investigation Currently going on in the Department of Fisher!~ that they have the Province officially, or are in the process of the Province, that not another cent will be paid until a pretty serious Matter, Mr. Speaker, if it ia correct. Why bring it up? Well, I am only relating to the House vhat my Ott~a What kind of sources? Usually reliable, Sir.

I vould nay very, very sources say that there ts $4 million outstanding, between And the Government of Canada has either '<>.<>eo the Province or is in the process of notifying the Province r~imbursed, that they vill not gee another cent matter of thi~ uhole inVe5Cigation is complete. Through them. through you or through the Government of Hr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance can be as funny Sir, but it is n very. very serious matter. 327

November 27, 1975 Mr. Neary. Tape no, 129 Page 2 - arw So, Mr. Speaker, the8e are just aoae of the matters that I wanted to touch on, Sir, in this debate. I do not want to be accused of filibustering in thi8 bon. House, Sir. I am not going to be like my former boss, the aeaber for Twillingate (Mr. Ssallwood~ I am not going to speak for five days. I pt·obabl~ could. There is enough ammunition, Sir, to threw at the to keep a member, if he is doing his job in this bon. House, htm going for four or five days. I do not intend to bog the Sir.

Some of the new aezbera are anxious to get up on their and make their aaiden speeches, and ve are all lookinK eoae of the oratorical ~xperta that we up in thie: bon. House, with their bright new shiny maiden speech. I hope that before 1 sit down, Sir, that 1 will a trend, Mr.

Speaker, let ae aake one thing perfectly clear and I have heard the Leader of the Opposition !ay this 80 You know, in the last few days, despite the fact that the M1n>O<,er~• Finance hns come into this House, and the Premier said outside and inside the House and ministers have parrotted what saying about having to take harsh~drastic measures, ceaber after Sir, on the Opposition benches are getting up and saying, vhat time you going to carry out your promise to put the waterline down -in : Pigeon Inlet? What time are you going in So-and-So place?

What tiDe are you going to build that hospital that you promised us during the election1 And you know, Mr. Speaker, if there is one exception that 1 would aake, one exception that L would make to belt tightening, retrenchment and cutbacks, ia noop:L<E~ 1 think hospitals should get ~riority over everthing else. And 1 as disappointed as any ~an in this Rouse that the hospital is not going to be built. It has been shelved, 328

1975 Tape 130 PK- 1 construction has been po.!!tponed. And there is r_oing to be a rtolent ;eactf,on frOta Port aux Basques llhere you have aen and v0111en on the -ward because they do not have any accomaodation, they do not the space. And I do not blame these people for being h?Ppin& think that Mr. Trudeau meant to include hospitals ~n controls and cutbacks. I do not think the~.

Sir, around this country c~ading for the just society- retr•on•:h,~rlt,inflation 1 cost of living, high prices or vhat have not think that he meant for hospitals to be cut back. is the only exception I would make for the rule, but nevertheleas, apparently have not been convinced re~ - are still standing in their place in this bon. House and a little petty game of politics with the government. And the say, vhne are you going to put down the arte•ian v•ll? going to put a pump in the well? When are you soing to When are you going to do that? Hr.

Speaker, I said before this session of the Bouse ••••••·• I would stand here as the watchdog over the people of this it meant criticizing the Opposition I would do that the government, voting vith the government, voting I am a free man. I am out from under the thumb rich people or well-to-do people. I am my and I am obligated to nobody except the people who sent ne But vhen I hear people raake: cootndictory gets ~ right up tight.

You hear one fellow aetnber sayins,"Dh,it is a good budget because it has time, peu1 le who are building houses or buying houses It is good in that respect.'' Then you have "No:;it is a bad budget becaU!Ie motor gone up by sixty-six and two-thirds per cent." member saying, "No it is a good budget because from the sales tax." Then another one would bad because they did not exempt this or they did not Mr. Speaker, to use an old cliche that the Leader of the­ Liberal Party has used so oftl!n, "You cannot be half 329

November 27, 1975 Tope 130 prep;nant. You are either for ~t or you ar~ ag~~M~ it," ~~ question that everybody and every ~~emb!!~ op. this side of has to ask hiqelf , 11 Will the bud gat do the job that i~s to do1 11 That 1ft the question, Sir, that ve have to ask oun~, ... ,,, Mr. Speaker, the han. Minister of Finance has not even the members of this House that there i8 need for retrenchment cut back. Orherviee - MR. KlORES: It did not have a chance. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. MOORES: It did not have a chance. HR. !lEARY: Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, - No, Hr.

Spea~r, Premier did not hear the earlier part of my reaark. -~· DOODY: He did not hear it from the oratory angle. HR. NEARY: That you would not have members standing up to the Pre~~ier, "~hen are you goinft to carry out your protdse Y~,~ made during the election down in Pigeon lnlet?u Would y~u haye that kind of thing? Or would you have Ml!lbers th~t are genuinely -· •_c--- and sincerely trying to zero in on the real problem? Hr.

Speaker. by way of &U2mary I would say that this Ho08e being forced for the first time since Conf~der~t;on 1 _ I would submit,subject to correction by my former boss, prob~bly of the few times in the history of Nevfoundland, but certainly, the first time since Confederation that suppleeentary estimates_ to be brought into this House, and I would submit, Sir, that th~ arise frOlll two factors, t\ol'o factors:· First, Sir, and fore.ast I would submit .to the House that the Minister of Finance, the ~n. present minister's collea~ue at the time did not present realistic estimates of revenue, and on the other hand realistic estiutes_of expenditures vhen the original estimates, Hr.

Spe.aker,_ wert:_ ,te~l!!d in this hon. Bouae last Spring. And I pointed out one gross ~.1~: this afternoon, Sir, and that vas hie error in arithae-Uc on the entitle.ent of this Province to equali::ation p&yll!enta. And, Mr. Spealtar, aeeondly, I would say that 330

November 27, 1975.

Tape: 131 RH - I at the ti~e the former minister delivered his budget of expenditures and revenues to this Provlnce there uas no way - and the minister emphasized this, T think, himself in hie budget on Monday - there was no way, Sir, which anyone could predict the total impact of this ProvincP, neither could they esti~te provincial or provincial revenues,or for that m&tter, Sir, the the individ011ls in thie Province. there are two reasons, Sir, ?hy we have supPlementftry esti.ates thi!l TTou!'le and we are forced to discuss these estimates a-t this a month before Christman, two reasons .• mis11'141U!g~n-t on the pate­ inflation.

The government cannot escape, get -. fro11 under completely and I am prepared, Sir-, to admit that ft lar~i! of the problem, not only in this Province, the minister can tell in Canada, all over the world, is caused by inflation, but part, part, know how much, part of the blame can be laid right on the IOtildlers of the administration. J am not so naive and stund. Sir, say,vell they built up peoples' hopes and expectations during What party, Mr. Speaker, vhat party does not do that election?

I ~ould not want to be a member of a party that to spend all the money that ~as proaieed by the other major in thie Province. I ~ould not be a part of a ROVernment to find of money either. As it happens the P.C.s enoch back fluke. They got back in and they are shouldered, they are the r~sponsibility of now putting the Province back on an keel ns my bon. friend from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) it the other day. -I VOuld like to be able to help them. I would like to be able but there is nothing you can really get your teeth into. The has not fired up the House and fired up the people and set ~ can all aim at.

He has not even convinced , members of the RouRe, he has not, the minister has not the members of the Rouse because otherwise, Sir, they would time saying,~at time are you going to put a in this ~ell or wha~ time are you ~oin~ to drill a well? 331

November 27, 1975. Tape 131 Mayhe the mini8ter has a fev surprises up his sleeve for us. he is goinR to shock us one of these days. But, Mr. Speaker, we in this han. House finally must come to grips with the true facts life regarding income and financial expenditures in terua of dollars and must not delude ourselve~ further, Sir, with an idiotic helief that Santa Claus even at this time of the year is to our re~cue.

My advice, and I know, Sir, that the ~mbers will not p~v any ~ttention to what I a~ going to eay but my advice - well, Hini5ter of Finance might, because what I am gain~ to aay was right his alley, he will probably agree with it - individual meabera !louse must stop playing politics and trying to bulldoze the go·•elrnolent1 into carrying out election pro=ises that involve little goodies for. individual districts. AN HON. MEMBER: Go over and take your seat. HR. NEARY: No - Ah! Hr. Speaker, I have heard that so often LnPoUe. Ah! The rumors co!M! back to ee. The cauc~ is not nn::LRll« < yet. Ah!

He is going over with the Tories,they say. He is set. 1 remember one gentleman telling me the Leader of the old P:trty Rays, "Ah! He has given up his "Principles," because I went and used Newfoundland Info~tion Services to get information into dt~tTlct of LnPoile. And, Hr. Speaker, I want to set the record on that. There is no censorshif!. If anybody thinks in this Rouse one moment that the Minister of Public Works and Services looks at my releases and censors my releases, that is completely false and unl'rt~, And if that ever haf!pened, Sir, if that ever happened I would cut it off so fast.

I have had nothing but co-operation, Sir, and the aint.ter sayal~Y did I not say that last year. J was not allowed,was 332

Novebher 27, 1975 Tape No.l32 NH- 1 MR. NEARY: one thing. And in the second place, Mr. Speaker, the service is there, there is nothing I can do about it, it is going to be there for the next three or four years and I promised ay constituents out in LaPoile that they waul~ ~ave a ~wo-way pipeline to the House of Assembly, information into me, inforaation back to thee, Sir, and that ia the best way right now that I knov how to do it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If the bon. gentleaan will take his seat for a mo!lll!nt, this ia vith reference to or pursuant __ to Stan4ing Order 31 and by no later than S o'clock I as to inform the han. me.bera of the Rouse what matters ~ill be up for debate on the motion to adjourn at 5:30· I have notice of two such matters and they will be called in ~he order today in which they ~ere received. The first one fro~ the bon. member for LaPoile and relatea to hia to the han. Premier of a couple of days ago, the matter ~f to increase productivity in the province with apecial to the work stoppages and lost man-days of the ~ast year. Rear! Hear!

And the second matter is one of vhich notice was given to­ bon. Leader of the Opposition and relates to his question Qf,,yooltoJrd••v to the bon. Minist~r of Justice and relating to the appointment third Judge of Appeal in the province. Those are the two matters _which notice hae been given and which will be up at 5:30. The bon. member for LsPoile. So, ~r. Speaker, I could not help but hearing that snide do you not go over and take your seat.

I reaemher, Sir, when the rattle and carrying this Opposition on ay back alone an•i a half years, when I did not knov what morning up - Oh, oh! '-'""""c·_ No, Sir, not what morning I vould wake up and hear a few had joined the PC Cabinet. It would not have surprised I have not sacrificed any principles, Sir. My Liberalism a big "L". and not vith a small ••1", and t do nat have to kowtow to in this province except the people vho sent m@ here. And when the 333

November 27, 1975 Tape No. 135 NH- 2 government do things that I deem to be in the best interest of my constituents and the ordinary people of this province, Sir, I will vote in favour of it. When I think they are not doing thing• in the best interest of the ordinary people of the province,! wi11 vote againat them and I will give thea a s~ck in the gob. And when the Opposition are not doing their job, Sir, I will give them a little flick on the wrist. Not that I aa not a Liberal or that I should go over and take my seat on the other aide, I aa too aucli of a Liberal for that, Sir. I am not a cogard or a traitor.

I never vae and I never backed m~ay fr011 11 fight lind I never tried to aake excuse.t: for .y colleagues, never criticized them or condemned th~ vhen I got up and spolte in this House 1 wu all for them. And there were no knife stabbinR or back stabbing on ~ part. I fought the battle like a aan, Sir, and if 1 had to do it alone dawn here with the help of my colleague, the former Premier, the member for Twillingate, if we had to do it dawn here in this corner alone we will do it~ but let ue be aen about it. not eovarda. MR. lCRCAN: While they are back stabbing. MR. NEARY: Aw, Mr.

Speaker, it will all CO!I'e out in the Va.!ih, Sir, it will all come out in the wash. They can tey to s110oth it over all they ~ike but, Sir, 1 am in a position where I can level, lay it on the line and I aa a better Liberal anrl I always vas, Sir, a better Liberal than half the crowd that criticized me put together. So, Mr. SJ)eak·er, the llellbere of this House must stop playing politics and trying to bulldoze the government into living up to aa.e of these foolish and irresponsible promises they oade during the election.

TheY were trying to get back into paver, the Liberals were trying to get in, the NDP were trying to get in, they were outbidding one another but now, Sir, the election is over. It is behind us 334

Nnvember 27, 1975 T~tp~ 133 IB-1 tm.d <111 mcmherl'l of the Hnuse of Asse!llbly, .tfr. Speaker, wet now drop this nonsense of trying to fight for local interee~ headlines «nd concentrate on the number one job, Sir, that we have before Ul'l in this Province. And thAt is to whip into shape and to amend if ~~~essnry, if the mJnJster is agreeable, the proposed budget th~t the m:_ini~t~r brought in in thie Jlou~e last ~onday ~o that it-will ehow t~e people of this Province, ~r. SpeAker, that you and t,- Sir, and ~very me~er of this hon.

Houae of A~sembly of both the government _opposition benches, Sir, are truly sincere in the will to Yin­ war against inflation, Hence, Your Honour, 1 would ur~e every member of this--hoo,-­ Assembly not to support this budget. I would like foi-.y .cc,uea:~u•••• the members on the opposition benches, members on t~e: benches, bm.aterial of Wst party you belen,- to, n-Ot- to support budget in its present form but to bring in amendments that wfll and put t~nme teeth into it. You vant more taxes? No, Sir, 1 am not t8lking 8hout ~re tsxes.

I~ tslking-­ extravagance and the ~aste that the govern~nt shov by And I do not have to go bsck over some of the ressona 1 yesterday, by putting the ROVernmeut sircraft in moth balls and by tel linr, the Premier to put his foot ~wn with minhter!!l b1g red expensive carpet nnd ~rspes and What we used to .sect:l_onal furnHurl:', chesterfielrls and settees and recliners. by exromple, Sir, brin~ in Amendments, and slter the budget if be altered or it does not do the job, if the minister did bis meAsap,e nero~&.

I~t us epell out the retrenchment and and the belt tirhtening thst the government is going to Hov do you expect, Sir, how c8n the minister expect the Ne~foundlander to turn down his thermostat, to cut bsck on still living high on the hog, and fancy-free. So, let us put a little muscle and s little it, Sir, that will give un in this Province, ~iye everyone Province,even if it involves a little bit of inconvenience, and a little bit of h8rdship, give everybody a real chance to

November 27, 1975 Tape 133 halt 11nr1 cut out the eomotn1c csncer, Sir, \lhich 18 enting a-way at the ~11-being nnd the very morsle of our people in thie Province today. ~. SPEAKE~: The hon. Minister of Social Services. RON. C. BPETI': 1-fr. Speaker, that is a very difficult act to needless to say. 1 do not know hov many hours that -wss. Fir8t S:l r, I wool d like to congratuhte you on your election to the very hi~h office of Speaker.

I «m sure that it had to be one of your 1n0ments of extreme joy in your very i.llustious career as a pol1t1,C1lan and as A very leArned man. 1 would nlao like to congratulste my tuo colleagues, the bon. member for Bonavieta. North H'r. Cron), who ha!l been appointed Deputy ChAirman of Committeee,snd the member for St. John's South (Dr. Coll:lns),who hAs heen appointed 1'18 Deputy Speaker snd r.hairman of Debates. In every case I think the Premier's choise was e -wise one. l -would like to say, Sir, that I am particular1v pleased "With the success of the member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Cross) who hns finally provecl after all theSe years that it is poAsible for ~ Tory to be elected in th3t ftrea, rural Newfoundland and ~ybe 336

November 27, 1975, Tape 134, PaRe 1 -- apb /!R. BRETT: does away with the myth that the Liberals or th~ Grits a hold there that could not be broken. I would alae like to congratulate all the new members of th~ and tho~e of cour!e who were re-elected, and espe~ially my bon. from the district of LaPoile. I am very sincere in -~!8, Sir. T join with many other when I say that but for him there would_ have been opEacticoRily no opposition in this House in the past three and-a-pal£ it is great to see him back 1aa I 8aid. A v~ry difficult-man I would not even try.

But your wit,bon. sir,and your, cutting aometimes are indeed a pleasure. On the 19th of November, as I aaid, some of us, some_of.yoi: Are for the first time. Form~ it waa alao a first. Believe ~tor not, the first time in my whole life that I ever laid ey~s ~n the from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood)~the only living father h~elf. to believe but it is true. A Newfoundlander, thirty-nine In person. Oh, yes! I mean in person. Not on television 1 in the flesh. a Newfoundlander, thirty-nine years of age who spent three in the House of Assembly, that I never did actually see gentleman before.

I feel that I have to, while I am talking gentleman, make some reference to the last election in that 1 think it was on opening day, he mentioned how sorry he was in that area was defeated, Hr. Bren Power. I ~eb to assure sorry. I do understand, Hr. Speaker, that both ,the bon. member fros (Hr. Smallvood) and the han. the Leader of the Opposition had in finding sameone to run against me in the district of They finally found two sacrificial lambs.

And there was gentleman who -well I do not know if he were a Liberal or a P.C. he was but I think he has run for just about every party that we But obviously he was not wanted either by the the Opposition or the hon. member from Twillingate (Hr. Smellwood) himself ur to run as an Independent Liberal. the end of that little story, Hr. Speaker, is that neither one of ~aved the~r nomination. But I reocat,hon. Sir from Twillingate,

November 27, 1975, Tape 134, Page 2-- apb {Mr. Smallwood) I certainly do not regret the defeat of Your Hr. Getting back to - and I do not want to engage, Sir, in any with you because I am sure if you get up what is going to happen to Hut another one of your comments on the 19th - and I could not help this, and I have to apeak about it- you an!d, Sir, for the first the history of Newfoundland this Province now has a minority I as~ume that you were basing that on the fact that ~ received, an not absolutely certain that these figures are correct, but I oe<1·•~• that we received 46 per cent of the popular vote.

Now I assume are basin~ your statement on that fact. Well if this be true, necessarily follows that we have a minority Liberal Government because they received 43 per cent of the popular vote which is cent less than we did. I sunpose, Sir, it necessarily follova that you must be in a position yourself because I understand that you also received less 50 per cent, as a matter of faet, I believe you the votes cast in the district of TWillingate. Hr.

Speaker, the reason for this Fall budget, &nd I am not refer to it as a mini budget, is inflation. cnmpniAn that wae wa~ed at least in Trinity North, and if the same of ca~paiRn ~as ~aged all across the Province by the Liberal and Liheral parties, then I shudder to think what the results would have had either one of them received a mandate from the people of the P~ovJln~ rather than us. 338

27, 1975 Tape 135 PK- 1 tuflation~what is it7 I do not pretend that I can describe it to There are many cauees, but in my awn humble vay I would ;d••sc:ribe it as, and if you do not aind I vtll reed it , 1 ' an econollic -_social condition vhich exiets becauae a demand for gooda and ia greater than the eupply.' 1 -And this leads me to the question, vhat were the plans of the to curb inflation?

And going on from there I will taka the platform,or some of the points in their platfo~during And one to the things that they atreaaed. they no doubt they von votes on it 1vas the abolition of I know it vaa used quite a bit in my district.

It is ~£ Baddening,becaua~- I will ~t •uggaet that they intentio~y people, but it vaa made to sound that the Tories, the vho are reapcnaible for school taus in Nevfoundland. today, I believe these fiturea are correct, ve h.ve school tax authorities in this Province, eight of thea vere for.er Liberal Administration and •ix of the• under Nov in MY opinion thie dou DOt ma.Jc.e the dirty the fathers of school taxes. of the worst things that we did was to asree vitb that the people of St. John's should pay school taxes, and that the business people of St. John's.

Nov I do not know of one soul in Trinity North who is mad with me becauae the Falls, Corner Brook, St. John'• or wherever have to pay Nov whera was I7 You were going novhere. That is all right. You do not lurve to go outside. There is lots of rooa. Order, please! I should point out to the han • .tniater members that hon. gentleaan are suppose to be referred bon. member for thie district or that diatrict. It may •eea It is put there by people mora learned experience than I, and I think in fact it does have a very So I would suggest to all bon. ~era that that fora 339

Noveeber 27, 1975 Tape 135 PK- 2 address ~hich in fact i~ required be used, The han. minister. MR~BRF.TT: Thank you, Mr. Speak!'r. The question that I was going to ask, Sir, was where did the Opposition Party plan to get the $11 million that we would no longer be coll~cting if ~e did away with school t~? Of course the anawer ~hich the han. Leader of the Opposition gave was that he would ~et it fro111 general revenue. And vhat, Sir, may I ask")ia general revenue •. and from whence does it come? Does it come from taxes or does it not?

I believe, Sir, 1 believe very strongly that anybody who listens to that nons~n9e, if I may call it ao, realizes that if we were to do ~ay with school taxes and if we did not put on acme other tax, but if we took it from gen!'ral revenue ~thout increasing taxes, and if we were g6ing to give the same level of service to school boards,than_ obvioualy that money had to come from ao.e other department. And another question, would you take it from Health? Would you take it from ~elfare? From ~ence would you R@t it? 340

27 J 1975 Tape No. 136 NM- 1 I think, Sir, that every member of thi8 House and I of the people of Newfoundland know that boards are clamoring for more money, and I also bP.lieve, Sir, everybody in this Province reali%eS that we are probably the in Canttda that does not have a school tax throushout In all the other provinces it aay not be a schol tax as a tax levied for the purpose of education. Nov this leads me to say something about school boards.

In tht. of n:straint 1 cutbacks, I aa soing to aa1te a fev reaarb at the -~f upsetting ay colleague, the Minister of Education, and also friends acrose the Province who are eaployed with school -__ I do believe that a lot of our scho-ol boards are living their means. I believe that they~ like aany other segments of to atop and take a look at where they are going or, said, where ~e are at. also believe, and certainly my bon. friend, the Minister of not going to appreciate thie:, that in a01r1e eases the istntto,ra are moat responaible than the school boards. What administration?

The administration of the school boards, the adainiltrators Superintendents. Superintendenta,exactly. I feel that I know whereof this particular field because 1 know that some of you are I was one time a buainesa administrator of a achool board. Placentia Integrated School Board and 1 add, Mr. Speaker, thst that board is, as far as I know, the few in the Province that is still solvent. point of viev after working with thea 1 believe that they vent too far in centralization.

From an adainistration point good, but there is one particular field that really used I vorked there and that vas in the ~intenance of the Now this particular board that I just mentioned has a very eo:gr~tpllic:al area. It is one of the largest in the Province. It 341

November 27, 1975 Tape No. 136 Nil - 2 extends from Litt~e Harbour East in Placentia Bay up to Swift Current and then follows the Trans Canada into Port ~landford and then Bonavista Bay, dovn to Bonavista and then the Trinity Bay eoaatline from Elliston right up to Sunnyside. In that vast area, vaat is a good word, we had two aaintenanee men who had to look after all the schools.

This meant that if we had a window broken in a school in Swift Current, the maintenance aan stationed at ClarenvUle had to get in his truck- this aan was paid a good sal~ry as well as mileage-and drive to Swift Current to replace a windov. No~ in my opinion this is not good administration somebody can ask the question, ~by did not somebody in Swift Current put in the windowl And the answer is that the attitudes of the people aeea to change, they aay;the government is paying for it~and they just did not ~ant to do it.

Another thing, Sir, and I am talking about cutting back and I do not partieularlv want to jusp on school boards, but the question of equipment was one that always irked me and it is aaaething that I feel _ - that probably our school board administrators should take a second look at, the demand for equipment and supplies. Suppliea I do not mind too .uch,hut equipment~you know~there was no way to satisfy it. And it seemed to me that if you - in some comaunities you had ~ schools, if you gave an overhead projector to one, you automatically had to give it to the other one whether there was a need or not.

And 1 know for a fact that there .is equipaent in schools around this Province that does absolutely nothing more than gather dust. 342

Nove~er 27, 1975 Tllp!! 137 IB-1 MR. Slffi"'NS: Perhnps it is bad bUBiness management. ~. BPETT: Is is hnd business management an~ I feel that somebody should look into it. Of course, on the other hand there- t!R. HlCI(HAJi: Your boarrl was solvent. ~. BRETT: ~y board was solvent, On the oth~r hand, Sir, there are some - and a~llin at the risk of raising the ire of so1Jie people -I do believe that we do have some staff in some of our school board offices that if they were paid for their production or ~at they produce, they Yould probllhly have to visit ny department for a supplement. Hr.

Speaker - MR/ SIMKJNS: Could you repeat that et•tement1 l'R. BRETT: No, I do not care to. You should be listening. If you were lhteninp-- ~r. Speaker, I note that the bon, memher for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), I believe, has a resolution on the Order Paper with regard to school taxes. I do not know if I have it here or not. Yes, it says ~r. Lush, Terra Nova, the bon. ~mber for Terra Nova, to l!!Ove: ~REAS the collection of school assessments have a default rate ranging from a minimum of 3% to a maximum of 73~; NR. SPEAKER· Order, plenee!

While the budget debate And the debate on the Address in are very fAr-ranging topics, are under~tood to be debated. ~4e rule of relevAncy - and I am not now referring to the rule of relevancy- but there is " rule about the anticipation of 11lltters o~ the Order Paper, and such a specific anticipation in terms of a s~ecifie resolution. 1 am not saying that the hon. member ~y or may not, that is not the pnint. I am not ~nticipatiny, a point or ~akin~ a jud~e~nt in anticipation.

The question is not whether he may or may not diseuse school _taxes, It is the specific reference tn a resolution on the Order Paper and that specific reference wou]d be anticipation of a matter ~ich ie on the Order Paper. The bon. the Minister of Soeilll $ervicea, 343

N~vemb~r 27, 1975 Tape l37 HR. BPE'IT: Thm1k you, l-Ar. Speaker. What 1 ~a~ ~oing to say, Sir, is th~t J am sure that the hon. members knows as does everybody in this House of Assembly IB-2 thnt the only monies that this government or ~ny government has is what it collects in taxes, in our case, I Auppose, what ve can get from nttnwa and ~hnt ~ cnn borro~.

So you can came up vith all the fancv resolutions 3nd make nll the promises you like, Sir, but it hnils dovn to one thin~ basically, that is the people of the Province must pnv for' education and other services. nirectly or indirectly we have to get it out of the people. If you do not ~et it one ~ay, then you have to get it another. Speaking of inflation, Rir, this Province neither caused nor contributed to inflation, ~t least in my opinion.

You knov, it is a favourite pastime of sone members of the Opposition to try to ma~e people believe, you kno~, that it is the dirty Tories Yho are the cnuse of the increase in l:lving in Ne~foundland, in this Province. That is fttupid in my opinion. The fir~t question that comes to mind is, what :Is their great )ea~er, what i~ the Liberal C~vernment in Ottawa doing nbout :1 t? No"' 1 grant you that BO'II'Ie steps have been taken. But 1 cAnnot hPlP remembering back to July, 1974 when the bon. the Prime Hiniater told the people of C,nnAda:' no not ~or-ry; 1 he said,' Everything ia all right.

There i~ no need for wa~e and price control. We have wrestled in

f) at :I on into the ~round.'' In my opinion, he is not e. very good wrestter. I would hnte to ~ee him take on Whipper Billy UatMn. But, ns L se.y, he toJrl us there was absolutely no need to worry, and T mi~ht e.dd that {t is beautiful today to see him have to eat his words. But, L Contend, Hr. Speaker, that he still has not gone far enough. He has not got the intestinal fortitude to p,o all the ~ay and I believe that there are holes bi~ enou~h in his guidelines to drive one of J~ Pefd's D-8 tra~tors throu~h. 344

November 27, 1975 Tape no. 138 Pa.Ae 1 - 1av MR. ROBERTS: Not quite, MR.

BRETT: Almost, Now one of the hon. gentleman over there on the other side of the House wanted ue to defer the regular business of the Bouse a couple of days ago, and he wanted to discuss aoae • of the labour problema tbat we are experiencing, particularly in our papermille, And I could not h~lp but think, as I sat here, -that I hope we are not, here in the ProVince, I hope we are not taking an example from the Government in Ottawa, because I woader,wby have they not settled the postal strike, And again I hope that that is settled today or in the very near future. Mr.

Speaker, they were going to curb inflation -or eaybe I should say, were they going to curb inflation? What stepa were they going to take? You talk about proaisea. Here are so.e of the things that they were going to do, They ~re going to pave all the g~avel roads in this Province in th~ee years, That ia ~ -years better than the dirty Torie!l, not bad. And they were going tO put water and sewerage in every crook and inlet in the Province. I--do not know what the time limit t.~aa on that. But I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if they realize the cost?

Just to pave the ioada alone at current prices Would cost $285 million, Now if you add the - MR. BREIT: Per year, right. Now if you sdd the coat of vater and sewerage - MR. HICI<M~N: \/hat i.s it, $2B5 million? MR. BRETT: Two hundred and eighty~five million. Per year1 AN HON. I!EMBER: No, no, no! MR. BRETT: No, that is the total cost, MR~ MURPHY: Total cost of paving. MR. BRETT: Yes, right, but at current prices. MR. MURPHY: That is every main road nov, I presume, eh? 345

November 27. 1975 Tape no. 138 Page 2- .... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. BRETI: Nov if you talk about the cost of water and sewerage then, of course, you are going to get, used to say, not $1 aillion, not $2 million, not $3 aillion, not $4 not $10 million, but you are going to be talking the billions. This ie what they eaid, Sir. But just a few daya ago, you know - and they not Aeem to be very consistent -just a few daye .ago the han. ee~~ber_ for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) presented a petition from a eettleaent in his district Raying that they did not - and, of course, he •upportru the petition - saying that the people in this settlement did not vith property taxea. Nov I say, no taxes, no ~ervicea. I Dean it_ is quite that simple, you know, because - HR. YOUNG: No tickee, no shirtee. MR. BRETT: Yes, no tickee, no shittee. I wonder, Sir, when the politicians of this Province are goin~ to have the guts to stand on their two feet and tell the people that if they want services, then they are going to have to pay for them, And this day is coming. We are going to have to do it.

We are going to have to tell people the truth. You know, there is no ~ay that this goyernment or the Opposition, if they were in power, there is no way that we can continue to install, say, water and for example, at current prices if the people of:.the Province are ,only-­ prepared to pay rates of taxes th&t were established back in 1950. Getting back to promises - Mr. Speaker, do you adjourn at 5:30 p.m? MR. SPEAKER: Does the bon. gentleman wish to adjourn the debate? MR. BRETI: Mr. Speaker, 1 adjourn the debate. 346

November 27, 1975. Tape 139 RH- I MR. SPtAKFJ!: It now heing five thirty and according to Standing Order (31), motion to ad.1ourn is deemed to be before the Chair~ I recOgnize the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, ~ reaarks have to do with a question that I put to the han. the Premier~ I think it vas on Tuesday; and my dissatis~action vith the answer that the bon. Premier gave ae. Mr. Speaker, our Province is undoubtedly today in the gravest and ~at potentially disasterous period in its history.

The disclosure, Sir, ~n Monday's budget speech that nearly 300,000 work days had been lost during the year to date as a result of legal, illegal ~trike! and lockouts muet really shock, Sir, any thinking New­ foundlander and any thinking member of this House, Sir, no .atter if be !ita on Your Honour's right or Your Honour's left. The Whole situation, Mr.

Speaker, would indicate that neither ~nagem@nt nor _labour either in the public sector or private sector in this Province truly appreciates the inescapable relationship between productivity in work and the hi~h standard of living ve presently enjoy and that which ve have set our objectives for in the futur8, Sir. Hr.

Speaker, government at this moment and every member of this ~use of Assembly has a binding obligation to every man, woman and child in this Province to come up with a practical, vorkAble, all-esbracing plan to restore vithin our provincial boundaries that industrial relation sanity without which, Sir, ve are all truly dooaed and will have to depend forever, Hr. Speaker, on hAndouts from the so-called have provinces whose patience and tolerance, I mi~ht say, ie gradually running out. Therefore, Hr.

Speaker, in expre!sing my dissAtisfaction with the_ an~r given me by the bon. the Premier on Tuesday when I inquired about governeent plans, what plans the administration had to reverse this desperate trend, I was not objecting, Sir, to the sincerity of the Premier's an~er but solely, Mr. Speaker, to its failure to provide a reasonable working blueprint for the meaaures vhieh he and his ministers envision to deal with this very complex, tantalizing and difficult situation. And I aek nov, Hr. Speaker, for the 347 ;.--

November 27, 1975. Tape 139 RH- 2 Aovernment, for the Pre~ier if he i~ going to reply to ay few brief remarks-to disclose to all members of this bon. Hou8e and to the­ people of this Province the precise route the Rovernment will be following on the road map of recovery and improving industrial relations in this Province, improving the situstion that seems to be deteriorating day by day bet~en management and labour in thia­ Province.

And I answers for the Premier will not try to lay the blame on any part>eo>ra group of individuals but will face up to the situation and admit fashion that all parties are to blame in this particular case and that we have to work out a master plan to deal with this situation Sir, or I aa afraid that we are all doomed, that we will not be able to enjoy the standard of living that ve pre•ently enjoy or the expectations and the objectives that we have set for the future. MR. WELLS~ Hr. Speaker, the government is very concerned with problem which is raised by the han • .ember.

I think first in the time at my disposal I ought to say something about what the role of governaents in our society baa been traditionally in this aatter of labour relations. In our society,which is enlightened eoepared with certain societies of the past, the role of government is not to be a slave driver or a taskmaster that forces both sides together except in extreme circ~tances. The whole philos