PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 95 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, JUNE 4, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

; , June qth., 1970 Tape ao 1111 Paae 1 The House met at 10:30 a.a. Kr. Speaker in. the Chair. BON. J. R. SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the House has heard. vith pleasure, the news of the Rev. Father McGrath's nomination to be a bishop. He is, I think. one of the moat widely respected and certainly one of the moat pop~ar priests in our Province. The new blahop elect was bora at Oderin in. Placentia Bay1 1912. He got his education at St. Bon's College and at Me110rial University and at St.

Augustine's Seminary in Toronto. f.t the University here 1 he was prominent as a member of the Student Council, and he was prominent 1 also, in athletics. He did a few • years vork 1 pariah work in St. John's at St. Patrick's and at the Cathedral. !hen he weat to Wasbinston, D.c •• to do some postgraduate studies in sociology, and it was there be obtain.ed his Masters Desree,at the Catholic University of America. Returning to Newfoundland, he was attached to the Basilica ~ariah where be was very ac~ve in the Catholic Youth Club Movement and also as • lecturer in an adult labour school.

Father McGrath served fifteen years on the Senate of our University. He taught at St. Bride's College and also at St. Clare's School of Nursing. In the 1930'•• Father McGrath tauzht at several aummer schools at Meaorial University College. He served as private secretary to Ria Grace, Archbiabop Skinner 1 for a period before receivin.g his appointment as pariah priest in the Parish of Witlesa Bay, where he served for fourteen years. Then he returned to St. John's last year to assume his responsibilities as adminiatratar of the Archdiocese of St. John's.

Father ~Grath 1 th~ Bishop elect KcCr.ath, baa li&DY friends of all denoainations. He ia well known for hia ecumenical spirit. He 1so also, quite bllinpal and thia asset should be important to· him in his work as the new Bishop of St. Geora•'•· Hia eldest brother is the Right Reverend · Monsignor Williaa McGrath who vas prefect •poatolic in Chunghsianr Provine~ G0~9

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1111 Page 2 Mr. Smallwood. China,where he spent a number o~ years as a missionary but is now in retirement in Toronto. His sister, Sister Mary Bernadeen, music teacher at Holy Heart of Mary Regional High School and another sister is Mrs. G. A. Frecker, wife of the hon. the member for Placentia East and the Minister of Provincial Affairs. Another sister is Mrs. P. J. Rowlett now living in Toronto and a cousin of the new bishop is the bon. the member for St. Mary's District and a former Minister of Health. Bishop McGrath's fatherwas once a member of this House. He was Richard T.

McGrath who served in this House as member for Placentia- St. Mary's for quite a number of years. Other relatives of the bishop · elect were the famous Captain Jack McGrath who served as private secretary to President Teddy Roosevelt in the United States, a famous hockey player, one of the moat famous players of his day. Another relative, I remember, was the first lady in Newfoundland to become a lawyer,that was the sister of the bon. member for St. Mary's District and altogether, Mr.

Speaker, I would say that the bishop elect comes from one of the moat brilliant families that we have ever produced on this Island. So many members of that family were intellectually brilliant •• RON. F. W. ROWE (Minister of Education): Sir Patrick McGrath? MR. SMALLWOOD: No, Sir Patrick McGrath was not in any way related. Sir Patrick McGrath came from all Island, was born on Bell Island. No, I do think that there is any relationship not that I ever heard of.

But, Sir, another brilliant son of this Province, another brilliant Newfoundlander has achieved this signal success, and I am sure all Newfound­ landers, all members of this House, certainly, and all Newfoundlanders will welcome the good news. 6030

J~e 6th., 1970 Tape no 1111 Page 3 MR. A. J. MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition) Mr. · speaker,~ am sure, vhen I concur with the bon. Premier in his glowing tribute to Rev~ Father McGrath that his kind . words are shared not•only by the members of this Bouse but by, I would say, pretty well everyone in Rewfoundland who has had the great pleasure and privilege to know Right Rev. Monsignor McGrath. Personally, 1DVSelf. I have known him period for .any years but perhaps t~e most intimate~! have had with him was vben I was viee-president of the clerks' union back in the 1930's. Right Rev.

Monsignor McGrath used to meet with us two nights a week. Be had just returned from Washington and he used to lecture on social justice. Since that time, I have been quite honoured to call Monsignor McGrath a friend~ I have had many discussions with him on many things. Be bas recently been closely connected with the parish, my owa parish of the Basilica,and in my opinion,I think,Monsignor McGrath is one of our outstanding clergymen. I am very happy indeed to see that he has received this hish honour, and I can only say that the West coast, their great gain is the loss of us hare in the Basilica ~arish.

Monsignor McGrath is a man who although a distinguished clergymen, I believe he is one of the aost human persons that one would care to meet and through the years, as I have said, I have been very happy to be associated with him and have called him a friend, and I can only wish that God will bless him iD his great work and that the people of Corner Brook, St. George's and the West coast will work closely with him to carry on the great work that he has done not only for the Catholic segment of our population but, I think, for are all creeds and dennminations, and I am sure that the people of Corner Brook, St.

George's are very lucky indeed to have such a distinguished gentleman and clergyman to guide them and look after their affairs, as far as the Church is concerned. MR. C. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, may I add my words of personal congratulations . .; 6031

June 4th. , 1970 Tape no 1111. Page 4 Mr. Wells. to MOnsigDor McGrath. I know him ~eraonally, reasonably well but not intimately and have not known him for a long time. But on the basis of the brief acquaintance I have had with him~ I can very sincerely offer my personal congratulations, and I do very sincerely offer congratulations on behalf of the people in Western Newfoundland, in general, which will be the new Bishop McGrath's diocese live Bishop McGrath will~now, I assume, in Corner .Brook, where Bishop O' Reily has lived. It has been changed from St. George's over a number of years •• MR.

MURPHY: I do not think it will be a circuit •• HR. WELLS: I do not think he will be goios on circuit. It will be a confined circuit, if it does, relatively short distances. I am sure,, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Western Newfoundland, in general, welcome the appointment and look forward to having their new bishop with them very soon. Thank you. RON. W. R. CALLAHAN (Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources): Mr. Speaker, I should add a brief word. I think there will be great rejoicing on the West coast today over the appointment of a new bishop; particularly one who is a distinguished son of this Province.

The West coast has been well served with its bishops, with· its prefects - apostolic, prior to ita bishops, with its~clergy. The bon. member for Humber East yesterday referred to MOnsignor Sears who along with Rev. Curling, I think, if my memory serves me correctly, really established, I suppose, the influence of the church on that West coast and history of the service of the clergy of the West coast of all denominations, and it has been an extremely admirable history. Father McGrath takes the place of Biahop O.'Reily who has retired, who c..e to St.

Georse'a diocese. to the Pariah of Lourdes as a youni parish priest in 1918, and I would like to couple, I think, again in behalf . of this whole House, coupled with the congratulations of the Hou1a to tha· 6032

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1111 Page S Kr. Callahan Bouse, to the new bishop, the best vbhes of the House. -to the nov retired bishop, Bishop O'Reily.who for so many years has served that coast. The Diocese of St. George's, Mr. Speaker, it may ~t be realized. I think, territorially, is the largest and indeed extends well down the Southwest coast and the r~sult of that is - right down to Bay·D'Espoir - the result of that is, of course, that the sphere of influence of that particular diocese and the parson who rules that sea,is quite extensive in this Province. So, we are not really talking about only the West coast.

We are talking about the whole.of the Northwest coast, practically all of the South cout and a gobd deal in between. But I do wish Father McGrath, the new bishop is a graduate of• St. Augustine's Seminary in Toronto and therefore of an alma mater of mine. I have known him for some years, personally, and I add my personal facilitations in this public way, as I certainly, of course. shall do privately to him on his election as the bishop elect o~ the diocese in which my particular district is located. NOTICE OF MOTION Mr. Smallwood; Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Rural Electrification Act, 1963." MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Parks Act." ORDERS OF THE DAY _MR. B. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Would he be kind enough to advise 6033

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1111 Page 6 Mr. Collins. • the House, when we can expect thiR major announcement concerning municipal water and sewer programs for the year? BON. E. H. DAWE (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr. Speaker, my answer is, in due course. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, all the municipalities across Newfoundland are waiting, for in June month, much of the work requires tendering. _MR. SPEAKER: This is commenting on a question.· You have the liberty to ask it but not to comment on the answer that has just been given. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this ia indicative as far as I ~ concerned.

The type· of answers we are getting ahows the lack of concern ••• MR. J. C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, I would like to ask the Minister of Health a queation - that is that the increases in pay that have been agreed upon for hospital workers and Government servants, I understand, they were to receive from April lat. in their June cheques. I understand that the cheques were - the first part of June has gone out, and there has been no increase over the regular mon~ cheques. Would the minister tell us when the nurses and others will be receiving the promised increases?

When will it be reflected in their monthly cheques? BON. E.M. ROBERTS (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker 1 the bon. gentleman's understanding is completely, totally incorrect. The matter of salaries between the nurses and several otbe~of the paramedical groups is still under negotiation;;o . The matter of salaries for employees of the Government 1 as my colleague the Minister of Supply and Service• indicated the other day, is still under consideration. I believe the N.G.E.A. have a ballot in progress. The results are due on the 15th.

In respect of the employees in non-Government operated hoaptials, the Department •• 6034

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1111 · Page 1 Mr. Roberts. of Health, I am told, bas made the money available to the boards concerned. I a. not aware whether agreements have been ~gn~d by those boards, employers, with the representatives of their employees. But in a sentence, Mr. Speaker, the boo. gentleman's understanding is completely incorrect. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, do I take from that)then) that the Government employees and others who are to receive pay increases will not be receivlng them for some while yet, until all these nego.tiationa are completely settled. Is that the position? MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I think that is probably accurate. I will put it another way, that the increases will be paid as of the 1st April, but that they cannot be paid until they are agreed qpon. We are not paying on account. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Spe~er, on Orde~a of the Day, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question. Baa the iove~tigatioo into the matter of the sending out from Churchill Falla of Mr. Gus Tremhlett, Mr.

Fred Tremblett who are supposed to appear there on June 11th in Magistrates Court. has that investigation been completed and has the minister contacted the two men involved, the workers at Churchill Falls who were shipped out after the May 24th. holiday ~d when would his investigation be completed and reported on to the House? BON. L.R. CURTIS (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I have not yet received a report from the R. c. M, P. whom I have asked to investigate the matter. I do intend to follow,very closely, because I do not see how these men can return to Churchill Falls on June 11th to appear before court.

I caDDOt just sea What the plans can be, but I intend to investigate it. if necessary, to see that the case is either postponed without their going or else droppe •• lt is absolutely impossible to see;that these men are out on bail and that there be a trial in Labrador. It is just ••• 6035

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1111 Page 8 MR. WELLS: Raving been forcefully sent out. MR. CURTIS: I just cannot ••• MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with that matter. Would th~ ~unt of bail be returned to the men in question, if they do not appear in Magistrates Court on June llth1 _Ml. CURTIS: I am looking into that matter. MR. CROSBIE: Is the matter of what happened there being investigated also? I mean are the men themselves being contacted and their stories taken? The R.C.K.P.'s conduct, perhaps, is in question in this aatter. How can they investigate themselves? MR. CURT·IS: I have just gotten a report, Mr.

Speaker, from the R. C. M.P. I will have to be guided by that. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the bon. minister that this is a very •••• MR. SMALLWOOD: Is this a question. This comment - is this comment? Is this c:o~~a~~ent? MR. CROSBIE: This is a very serious question. The whole question of employment at Churchill Falls ••• MR. SMALLWOOD: Is this comment? Is this ~omment? Mr. Speaker, is this ~omment? MR. SPEAKER: This is not in order., to make c:olllllients on the answers. Please form~ in the way of a question and then it will be decided whether the question is in order or not.

But comment, every bon. member knowa,is not permitted. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice another question. Does he realize how serious this situation is at Churchill Falls, not only for the men in question but for others there who apparently are not being amply involved in the collective agreements there? how serious the situation is? protected by the union DOes the minister realize 6036

.June 4th •• 1970 Tape no 1111 Page 9 HR. MURPHY: Just one abort question. Mr. Speaker, to the President of the Council.and this regards the electoral office which comes under his jurisdiction. Is there any plan to update th~ voters' list of 1966 for the district of St. John's East, between now and the 11th June? I do not want to get argumentive, Mr. Speaker, but as you know,four years ago, there have been many changea, many young people have come of age, and we have already had some questions on this. I am just wondering - it would not take too long. _MR. CU&TIS: I think it is very simple. Mr.

Speaker. wbeo the voters' list is acceptable according to the law. Under the Provincial Act, every vo~e~who claims the risht to vote, baa his name put on the list by being avoro. It is purely formal procedure. and I do not think it would create any hardahip. Now in the Federal election it is different. Unless you name is on the list of voters. you cannot vote,period. But Provincially, you can vote by just signing an affidavit.

It ia 1110re or lees a very formal utter which does not take long. and I think it would be auch more satisfactory to proceed according to the wording of the Election Act than to bother taking a new election list. That is ay personal feeling. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, juat a supplementary question. I agree entirely with the boo. President of the Council, but in this case, it has been estimated that something like one-third of the voters will have to be sworn in, and I think this is going to make an awful bottle neck at the polling booths. That is the only reason I bring it forth at this time. IIIR..

CURTIS : We may oeeci more booths, perhaps. Mi.. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Labrador Affairs. Would the minister tell us, on the occasion of hia estimate• 6037

June 6th. • 1970 Tape no 1111 Page 10 Mr. Cros'bie. collling before the Bouse, will he be reporting on the whole employment situation at Labrador? On how the anion is carryina out its duties there in connection with employment at Labrador? How many Newfoundlanders are ~loyed there and a report on the troubles that have occurred ~here on May 24th7 Is the minister looking into that; apart from the Minister of Justice? Does the Premier glaring at t ~the minister mean that the minister is not going to reply? AN RON. MEMBER: Be is not permitted to reply. MR. CROSBIE: Be is not permitted to reply. On 111Dtion that the Rouse go into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker. left the Chair. 6038 •

J'linc 6, 1970 Tape /11112 Page 1 J\J MR. CHAIRMAN: Hines, Agriculture and Resources 815-02-01. H0N. H. R. CALLAHA.."l (Hinister of Mines, Ar,ricultu 're and Resources): Hr. Chairman, before the Items carry, I just want to finish the answer to a question - actually there are a number of questions in one - asked just before the Committee rose yesterday at six . o'c:;Lock_~ There is no connee!tion Hr. Chairman, between the Farm Products Corporation and the Newfoundland Poultry Producers Co-operative.

The Farm Products Corporation operate an abattoir and a poultry killing plant, and at Pleasantville -they have constructed and until the lease is signed they are responsible for a vegetable processing operation at Pleasantville, which is being turned over to the Eastern Farmers Co-operative. They have constructed and until a lease is signed, are responsible for an a~ricultural processing complex at Bishop's Falls. They have purchased and have ready to put in use when suitable quarters are found in Corner Brook, egg grading equipment.

They are responsible for slaughter houses at Comfort Cove, Notre Dame Bay, at Robinson's, and in .the Codroy Valley. And they also are taking over responsibility for all other facilities such as Central storar.e warehouses and that kind of thing · - public .facilities which have been provided over the years in various parts of the Province. This is the essential function of the Farm Products Corporation. The Farm Products Corporation Mr. Chairman, lease some of these facilities.

They are in the process of leasing ve~~table processing facilities at Pleasantville to the Eastern Farmers Co-operative, and at Bishop's Falls to the Centrai Farmers Co-operative, and when they get the egg-grading equipment . installed in the building in Corner Brook, will proceed to lease ,·that to the t-Jestern Farmers Co-operative.

They have leased pro_perty and equipment in the same manner to the Newfoundland Poultry Producers Co-operative, public facilities for which the Co-operative are paying rent, are paying their operating cost - paying for their O't-m management. · There is no subsidy nolv obtaining to that operation. There has been a small subsidy in terms of free rent and assistance with overhead, just as the policy provides for this kind of assiRtance to the other public facilities that are bein~ leased to Co-operatives for their operntion. 6039

June ~. 1970 Tape 01112 Page 2 JW The policy Mr. Chairman, and I stated this in the House before earlier in this session - the policy generally is to assist for a period of about two years, in various ways to get these facilities under way.

As I said before after spending large amounts of public funds to put these facilities in place, it would be stupid and silly to throw them at the farmers or the farmers' co-operatives without any starter assistance to get them properly operated. • And this '"e are doing and as I think I said yesterday, it includes in the case of Newfoundland Co-Op services, their agricultural division - in includes assistance with the procurement of operating capital. tn addition to this, through the co-operative division we have loaned to Newfoundland Co-op Services two of our senior people, Mr. Cyril Janes and Mr.

Bert Thoms, and they are advising and helping in assisting Newfoundland Co-op services in setting up the various operations upon which they wili sign management agreements at least. The Abattoir and killing plant Mr. Chairman, are completely public facilities. The . question has been raised here as what the Auditor General refers to as a $266,000 loss that is not a loss Mr.

Chairman, anymore than the money provided for land clearing, the bonus for land clearing, or the subsidy on agricultural lime, or the grants to agricultural organizations or the bonuses for livestock improvement or the subsidized vetenary service, or any of these programs can be considered losses. There are assistance programs '~hich apply ' in various ways in respect of every part of the agriculture industry in the Province. I think the Auditor General for the purposes of his statement, may have to show this as a loss. But in fact what it is, Mr.

Chairman, is the d~fference between the realistic charges that Farm Products Corporation make against the processing of meat products, got nothing.whatever to do with eggs, the processing of the handling of eggs - it deals entirely with meat products, the killing of poultry, the killing of broilers, the killing of sheep - the killing of cattle - the. killing of pork. It represents both the difference between the realistic price paid to farmers for their products, for these products, and there were 243 farmers last year Mr.

Chairman, and that does not indicate to me a favourite few or catering to as somebody said, the great lions of the industry. These are public facilities which may be used by any farmer who wishes 6040

June 4, 1970 Tape #1112 Page 3 JW to have his livestock proce~ed through that plant which is a federally inspected plant and which has completely acceptable facilities, and completely approved facilities, because of course having that facility and having the processing done in that facility enables a better price to the farmer. So it is a completely public facility which is not restricted in any way shape or form as to produce through it. They need not sell to it Mr.

Chairman - they are completely on their own, and farmers who wish to slaughter their own sheep or their own cattle and sell them to supermarkets or to corner stores, or door to door, or keep them for their own use, are at.completely at,liberty Mr. Chairman, so to do. As I said yesterday Mr. Chairman, the only provision that can be looked to for orderly marketing at this moment is orderly selling to the abattoir. This does not prevent farmers from selling on their own.

All it means is that if they want to come and use these public facilities, and to have our sales , organizations sell for them, and thereby get a better price - thereby have a better quality product turned out, they may do so. And it is their choice and their option - if they do not want to use those facilities that is their business. They are not forced to use the facilities except only in respect of farmers who have been provided with SPF stock from the s~ne station .

They must be brought back under the terms of their agreement,. because of the nature of the program, to ensure that the patholozical work is done and that we protect the particular strain of animal that we are producing from that plant. But other . . than that Mr. Chairman, any farmer who wishes to have his animals slaughtered in that plant may do so. It is completely open to the public, limited only by. its capacity to handle the amount of product. And I am sure there is no problem with that now. t~e are not forcing them Hr.

Chairman - the hon. eentleman will not listen to reason - he will not listen to fact - he will keep his ears closed. He will continue his stupid unfounded pronouncements. They are not MR. CROSBIE: The minister is tryine to obscure his position. There is only one abattoir and - 'HR. CALLAHAN: If the ignorant · stupid bon. r.entlemnn would shut up for a minute I '~ould make my point. Now if he does not t~i~h to accept it when it is made that 6041

June 4, 1970 Tape Olll2 Page 4 is fine but I would like to make it. And the point Mr. Chairman, is that r:obody but the farmers under agreement in the SPF program are required or forced to in any way put upon to put their product through that p~ant. And I would say Sir, that there are many farmers, there are many people along the southshore of Conception Bay who keep a few cattle, who slaughter them themselves, and it is well known, go out and sell them to the butchers anywhere they want. And there are butchers \-Tho do their own slaughering and their own selling. They are not required to come to the plant.

Nobody is required to come to the plant !1r. Chairman. But on a commercial basis, 1-1e tJill not custom kill. Now the exception to that is, that we 1-1ill custom 1<111 for an individual farmer's 01-m use, a lil!lited quality of livestock. I am not sure what the fi::;ures are, but there is a limit on how much cattle or hem much poultry or 1-1hatever. ~ve \dll custom kill for one's 01m use. And 1-1e will not custom kill on a commercial basis because that tvould mean then that we would have tl~e problem of sending all the killed meat back to all the farmers.

You would have that additional transportation cost - then the fan:~ers would have to take it and go out and peddle it. And the biggest problem there is in agriculture Mr. Chairman, is disorderly market. And that is what the marketing board is toing to be set up for, has been set up for. Again if they agree - if the farmers do not 1vant orderly marketing ~tr. Chairman, they can have chaos. But if the majority of farmers in respect of a particular product "'ant to have orderly marketing, He have set up the structure in which they can do it.

And it is their decision to make, ~low the question was asked about the marketing board. And the coml!lent "'as made that independents are beinr, forced into it. Nobody has been forced into anything ~tr. Chairman. \1e have set up a structure whereby there will be rules, there will be regulations. The public interest will be protected and the producers interest t-7111 be protected if they want to proceed with marketin~ schemes, but it '~ill be their choice and their option. \Vhat they will have to do is come to that board and present a marketing scheme and A~k thnt honrd tn npprova.

And that board mRy do anythin~ from r,ivinp, immediate approvnt to holdin~ public hearln~s. And it is within the competence of the bonrd to rnake the decision, and it is the responsibility of the hoard to make 60·12

June 4, 1970 Tape /11112 Page 5 JW it with the entire public interest in mind, and if the farmers in a particular product who want to have a scheme make their case, prove their case, then undoubtedly Mr. Chairman, the board will feel disposed to approve the particular scheme that may be proposed. But nobody has been forced into that - nobody has been forced into co-operatives Mr. Chairman. If people want to stay out of co-operatives, that is their business.

As I said here the other day, if they stay - if they l-tish to stay out - if they decide to stay out, then I think they have no right to criticize any assistance we are giving to co-operatives. At least if they criticized it, they should do it fairly, becAuse I do not suppose there is a co-operative movement anywhere that has not gotten public assistance. MR. CROSBIE: It is not fair for them to utter a word - MR. CALLAHAN: They can utter words if they wish Mr.

Chairman, providing the criticism is fair. ~fuat right have I to criticize somebody who becomes a member of the co-op supermarket down at Pleasantville? \fuat right have I to criticize the benefits he gets if I am not willing and prepared to join? None. And the same thing goes for the thousands of people in the co-operative in Corner Brook, the biggest consumer Co-operative I suppose this side of the • Prairies, doing millions and millions and millions of dollars a year.

Now other people in Corner Brook who are not members of that Co-operative, do not want to join it, do not want to pay in their share capital - do not want to give that ' Co-op their patron~ge. They do not want to do these things. By what right do they claim that there is something unfair, or something shoddy, or something illeeal or underhanded goin~ on¥ Mr. Chairman, we are attempting to assist Co-operatives in every branch of agriculture and we will continue to do that. I assume that hon. gentlemen opposite would desire us to desist from doinp, that.

But the only Hay we are going to have any success in this thing, as I have said before Mr. Chairman, is that we have Co-operatives and it is not enough just to build the facilities and put them there and say '.'now you farmers who have no money, go ahead and run it." They need working capital - they need assistance ~rith getting their operation off the ~round. They need management advice. They need technical advice, and they need some financial help. 60~13

June ~. 1970 Tape #1112 Page 6 And we have programed a two year pattern of financial help, and help with their expenses. And we have helped them with the provision of working capital, and will continue to do that, otherwise t· ~r. Chairman, the monies that have been spent to provide the facilities will be lost, will be ineffective, unproductive.

Nobody is forced into Co-operatives, and. nobody is forced into a marketin~ board situation so far as this Government is concerned. tl!e have set up the structure and if the farmers want to get into that, then no doubt the majority will force the minority in, but that is not unique.

As we discussed yesterday, that is happening all over this country. · There were gentlemen who went before the Standing Committee on agriculture down in the Hotel Newfoundland last year, and attempted to make a case that we were doinp, something quite revolutionary, quite undemocr~tic, quite unfair, quite improper, and they began and they tried to make their case Mr.

Chairman, · and they were virtually laughed out of the Committee room - for the very simple reason that every member of that Committee came from a farming area in Canada, and every one of those members of the House of Commons kne~.r that marketing boards and marketing schemes had been there for a donkeyts years. So Mr . Chairman, this is the same old smoke screen. It is the same old smoke screen ~tr. Chairman, and the Committee should treat it with the contempt it deserves. So Mr. Chairman 60:14 JW

June 4 1970 Tape 1113 page 1. Mr. Chairman I think that answers the questions that "•e~~:e asked and I do not know of anythin~ else that uRefully can be said in thesellenr.thy preliminary remarks. lb. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman just before that item goes I have a brief comment. Whatever the item is, in connection with what the minister just said. 815~01. ~~a~ is the minister going to be allowed to speak and nobody re~ly~ In connection with what the minister has said Mr. Chairman I just have a brief comment. There is only one abattoir as far as I kn·ow in the St. John's area.

If a farmer wants to have his poultry or his hogs or his cattle or anything else slaughtered there and looked after there and frozen there or chilled there, he must, under the rules that the minister is enforcing 1 sell his cattle or his poultry or his hogs,or whatever the animal in question is, to the abattoir, that is. the only way that he can use the facilities of the abattoir. The abattoir then becomes the owner of the product, processes it and markets it. So if he wants to use the modern facilities of this abattoir he is forced to sell his product to Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation or the abattoir.

That is the position and the minister cannot obscure. If he does not want to use the abattoir at allJhe may want to . but if he wants to market his own product then he cannot use the facilities, the public facilities of the abattoir,for that purpose 1 because the abattoir will not carry out custom killing. They will not kill for the farmer who has poultry or cattle or hogs unless he sells his animals ~o them-that is the very clear position.

And for the minister to say that no one will - MR.CALLAHAN: The rules are supplied equally for everyone,nobody denies that. }m.CROSBIE: The rules are very equal for everyone but fot the minister to say that there is nobody forced to seJ:.l to :the abattoir i.s so much nonsense. If you want to use the public facilities the modern facilities of the abattoir the freezing facilities you must sell, you are forced to sell,to sell your animals to the abattoir,do not trv to obscure that. That may be a ~ood rule, that may he a sen~ihle rule oT it may not. Bo not obscure the position.

Anll •• fAr 1111 the! 11111rk•tin~ hoard 1• concerned Mr. Chairman, 1-ffi.RMJ\Ll.\oiOOO: 6045

lb. June 4 19•70 Tape 1113 page 2. MR.CROSBIE: • This is not out of order one single iota Mr. Chairman. MR.. SMALLWOOD: A point of order. MR.CROSBIE: Point of order is it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman we passed this item. But some questions were asked of the minister and he said he would get the answers for today and he has ~iven the answers but the item in the meantime has been passed. Now the debate is starting all over again,lt is completely out of order 1 Mr. Chairman, I suggest to Your Honour, completely and absolutely out of order.

Ic was not out of order for the minister to give the answers today to the questions asked yesterday. That was not out. of order. He had promised to do it and he has done it. But now to start debating that all over again,an item that has been passed,is completely out of order. It is out of order. I ask Your Honour to rule it so. MR.CROSBIE: On;:that ·.point of~order.Mr~ eha~rman it is not. out of order at all. MR.CHAIRMA>~: I a~ree with the Premier it is out of order - MR.CROSBIE: Is the Chairman going to agree with the Premier before I have spoken to the point of order.

Before the Chairman has heard my views he is going to agree with the bon. the Premier, is that the position? I say it is •. . not out of_.!?rdet;, The minister was allowed to continue sreakinp; on that item and therefore if we would wish to comment on what the minister was saying we should be permitted to comment on i~How can that be out of order? Now that is my position,Mr. Chairman,if you want to make your ruling now. But to make the ruling before we have even spoken to it is a new departure. MR.ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak on uhat point of order.

I have been in this House now I think it is twenty sessions.! have seen more flagrant disregard of the rules of the House and the accepted rules the parliamentary pract~se here in this session than in all the other sessions put to~ether, and I am not thinkinJ!; of any one individual. I am not thinkinp; of any one.

And my hon. friend has no reason to complai~He has done more talking in the House, Nobody dis~utes his right to do itthan any other single member of the forty-one or forty odd members here. 1nis session he has done more talkinp., so he cannot say that he has been prevented from expressin~ his view~ He has had every opportunity to do so. Mr. Speaker, I sur,~est to you that if we do not here 1all of us,get our senses top.ether and adhere to the rules of this 6046

lb. June 4 1970 Tape 1113 page 3. House and the rules of committee here,that we are becoming more and more the laughing stock. not only in Newfoundland but the laughing stock of Canada We azefaking ourselves too seriously. We. are in session here longer- my view. my personal view is we are in session here longer now than we should have been.! do not see why we have to be in session three times as long as an~ other province_across Canada with the exception of the two big ones and even we are in session longer than that. Mr. Speaker. on this point of order I am urgipg you,Mr.

Chairman, and I am urging all members of this House. including myself, to stick to the rules here,otherwise the thing is going to disinte~rate into utter chaos. MR.A.MUFPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may,have a word on this point of order , we were on when yourose yesterday. We were then on Item 815-01. MK.CHAIBMAN.:·J Item 815-01 cerried. MR.!-ruRPHY: Well-if 01 carried what right did the minister have to answer questions on 01?

He should have forgotten his answers or anything else and carried on down and my - well we are still debating a -matter that arose yesterday, necause the bon. member for Burin was planning to speak on this heading and he did not get a chance. I think he has as much ri~ht as the minister. You talk about answering questions just another debate for fifteen ur twenty minutes, and I do not see why any member on this side, - it is not that I want to - to continue this debate or otherwise restrict t~e minister from speaking on one that we were discussing yesterday. MR.HIC~~N: On this point· of order Mr.

Chairman I suggested item 01 was not passed yesterday. The question was put the hon. the minister had startelll•. to speak and there was a suggestion from some of the backbenchers behind him that he sit down and allow it to go to a vote and I indicated that I wanted to participate in the debate on 01 and the motion was not put, lt was not put and it was not carried and if Mr. Chairman will recall when the deputy-speaker ot the Chairman of Debates reported on the progress there was no indication from him to the Speaker, to ~r. Speake~ that this item had passed.

But apart altogether from whether or not this item had carrted we have to sit here and 6047

lb. June 4 1970 Tape 1113 page 4. listen to the bon. minister of Education lecture us and tell us we better cut out the speeches. WE better not delay the proceedings and the deliberations of this committee., speaking on this point of order. And that we are·becoming the laughing stock of the Province and may be of the world. 1 know that they. are waiting breathlessly in the United Kingdom to find out what we are going to say here this morning. But apart altogether from that let me remind the hon. minister that on this one debate on this one item it is not the member for St.

John's West who has been monopolizing the time of this committee on that one item. But yesterday we went from Bond to Whiteway to Fisherles to Mines to practically every item and occasionally agriculture, ~r over an hour by the hon. the Premier and an hour and a-half the evening before, the night before on this same item. ~: Now let me suggest to the hon. the minister of Education that the fault lies not with this side of the House, not by a .. lnng shot. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman has called order. MR.HICKMAN: I can hear I do not have to be reminded by the bon. member for Bell Island.

MR.CHAIR~AN: Item 01 was called last ni~ht was passed according to the official records and we will get on with 815-02-01. Shall that item carry? MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, may one ask a question here on this item -03? Why .is it up $20,00~ from $6900, this year? Why is the vote increased to $20,000? MR.CALLAHAN: We are buying,~r. Chairman, a new tractor truck transport for land development equipment, transportation, and a one-tan stake body truck. 815-03-01: MR.MURPHY: Would the minister .tell us what agricultural education entails? MR.CALLAHAN~ Yes, Mr. Chairman.

As ! indicated yesterday we have been some time carrying on an agricultural education program, We have sent and paid entirely the cost of sending 109 students to university. a~ricultural college over the years. We at~present have sixteen students, ntne ~oing for both. professional technical trAining and there is a nayment to the Nova Scotia A~ricultural College for vocational a~ricultural training of $1S,OOO.In Addition .6048

lb. June 4 1970 Tape 1113 page 5. to tha~in that amount there is a provision for farmers field days and staff in -service · training. Prior to last year, farmers field days generally were held at the EXperimental Farm at Mount Pearl. Last year we initiated these field days and demonstration days both in Central Newfoundland and on the West Coast. And we intend to continue to do that. MR.~RPHY: We voted in 1969-70, $18.700. the actual spent was $12,043, $6000 less than we voted. now we are up to $27,000. MR.SMALLWOOD: That was the year before, was it not? MR.MURPHY: Actual $12,000. MR.S~~LWOOD: I wonder Mr.

Chairman if the committee would give favourable consideration to this suggestion. This 815-03 is a block of $413,000 consisting of thirteen separate items. Now Your Honour has called 815-03-01 the first of the thirteen items and we are now discussing that. Agricultural Education. Would the committee consider favourably the idea of Your Honour calling the whole block leaving all thirteen matters open for discussion. and when the discussion is completed vote the block.

But if it is voted one by one,thirteen separate votes~it makes it inevitable that we will have long and sometimes perhaps possibly, to some extent at any rate. unnecessary debate. But if ~our Honour would call them in blocks,on the clear condition that any item in the block is open for debate until the block is passed. If that is agreed - MR.WELLS: Anybody who wants to discuss any item MR.SMALLWOOD: Any item in the block. Any one of these thirteen in this block and any one of the seven in the next block and any one of the five in the next block.

If a block is called it is on the under•tanding that any item in it can be discussed. But when the discussion is completed the Chairman asks is the item carried. MR.~RPHY: ~t. Chairman, on that,no. I think the greatest discussion we have had on this is on the headinp,s without the individual items at all. I thtnk thAt wh•n wo p•t down thi'OuRh - ~R.SMALLWOOD: That can atill ~o an.

lb • .. June 4 1970. Tape 1113. page 6. MR.'HURPHY: Yes, but that -- MR. SMALLWOOD: That can still be so. I am not suggesting any change in that. MR. MURPHY: No • l-lell let us take item at a time I think it -; just a simple question • The big debates for : hours have: ,been on the actual heading without getting down to the items. MR.SM.ALLWOOD: That is right and it can still be so.• MR.MURPHY: Let us take it item by item rather than MR.SMALLWOOD: Having had the general debate on the block then we go in and have more debates on each individual item in it.

Whereas MR.MURPHY: I cannot go along wit~ I want each item. MR.SMALLWOOD: Alright. I will stay here as long as any one. I am quite happy I like being here. MR.MURPHY: This is simpler. MR.SMALLWOOD: I do not go out privately outside and say what is ~oing on1 why cannot we get out of here I like being here and I say that both privately and publicly. , I like. So I will stay here as long as you like, have a. bi~ lon~ debate on each one of these thirteen items and then another big long debate on each one of the next seven items and the next five and ri~ht through the whole book. I am happy I like it • I love debate.

MR.MURPHY: We are not going to save an~thin~ , if we call the block someone wants to speak on every one of them we are still going to have a great debate on i tern one, two. ~.WELLS: But why not just call the block. MR.l.JURPHY: Take item at a time. We are talking about a MR.WEJ.LS: What difference does it make, Mr. Chairman, if we call a blo·ck -Ol. MR.SMALL\olOOD: On a ~reat matter of principle • MR.WELLS: 03 has got thirteen items. Anybody can speak on any one of the items. Once, twice, dozen, twenty times whatever he wants - MR. SMALLWOOD: When the talkin~ is over then take the vote.

Why not a~ree to that? ~.MURPHY: Call the items, come on. MR.CROSBIF.: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order I would respectfully!submit that _6050

lb. June 4 1970 Tape 1113 page 7. in a matter like ~oing over the estimates. . If there is anyone in the House does not want to change the procedure how could we, how is it proper to chan~e the procedure? MR.SMALLWOOD: ''The House is the master of its own Tules and we can make a decision. MR.CROSBIE: The House is the masteT of its own Tules but otheT gToups in the House had rights , minority gToups too, an~ it has always been the pTactise in the House to go oveT each specific item so how can that be changed' Let us get o~we would have had this block done now if this had not come up. MR.HICKMAN: On 03-01 MT.

ChaiTman, would the ministeT advise the committee whetheT the students who are attending agricultuTal colleges abroad and were receiving financial assistance fTom the GoveTnment aTe they under any agreement to Tetut'n to the Province and if they are undet' agreement to Teturn to the PTovince is thet'e an obligation that they be employed for a peTiod af time · with the depaTtment of Agriculture/ MR.CALLAHAN~ A yeaT for each year they attended. MR.HICK~.A.!IJ: · The same as medicine • MR.

EARLE: On 02 MT.· ChaiTmBn, what sort of demonstration is it~ This:is in each vote,what is it1 MR.CALLAHAN: This is the pTogTamme I mentioned a couple of·days ag~Mr. Chairman. The estimate pTovides the demonstTation and experimental work in small fruit production and ve.getable pToduction in peat soil, insect control and small scale ~ardening and also for the expansion of the experimental programme we undertook last year in conjunction with the Bell Island Association. MR.NEARY: This additional expenditure cover Bell Island? MR.CALLAliAN: Bell Island, Bay D'Espoir, Port au PoTt, St.

Macy's, Placentia. where development groups have come with proposals which we have agreed to whereby we w~ll provide them with agricultural students for the summer and some assistance and ~uidance. ~m_ ,!W:J' ~'f\1'll On th11t ltPm ~lr, r.h11lrm11n, W@ havl!' Jn thh Provi.nc::e n very fine well-equipped, well-manned, experimental farm at MounL Pearl that iN ownerl nnd 6051

lb. June 4 1970 Tape 1113 page 8. operated by the government of Canada, headed by an outstanding Newfoundlanc.lr.·r Agrtculturist in the person of Mr. Robert Chancey and many agriculturists in · various branches of agriculture work in there. Now that farm.as I unrler- stand, that Experimental Station does a great deal of experimentation and demonstration and small gardening work. They did a great deal of work on the development of the clearing of bogland in Newfoundland.

They did a t~emendous amount of work on the development of the root crop farming areas in Lethbridge and I think that this committee can attach some significance to the fact that farmers in Winter1and and Lethbrid~e and in the Codroy Valley, in the Goulds,look to that station much more so than to the provincial department of agriculture for professional advice. MR.CALLAHAN: Come off of it, it is a basic research unit.

MR.HICKMAN: Ittds more than basic research :Hr! •chairman, I know from experience that even to the fertilizing of grasslands - MR.CALLAHAN: The hon. gentleman enjoysdepreciatingeverything we try to do in this Province. MR.HICKMAN: This is done through the experimental farm at Mount Pearl. They have advised this government, The question that I want to put because the suggestion has been made that over the years there has not been sufficient cooperation between the Provincial Department of Agriculture and the station at Mount Pearl, to the detriment of this Province.

Very much so when you think of the ADA grants .• if it is ADA grants that came in here, the ADA PrograiD.ll .~ When Alvin Hamilton was minister of Agriculture, there was an outright rejection of the Hamilton theory at that time by the then minister of Agriculture,to the detriment of this Province and we lost a lot of money in this Province by not availing of the programs and research that could have been made available to us.

Now, this vote under 815-02 Demonstration and Equipmen-t how much of that work in now bein11: done by the Experimental not StAtion at ~ount •earl and if lt is being done there doee/the minister a~ree ol>\116 hv lche 1'\"LlVin~tal llapartm.an~ nf Asrtr.u\turl!l, 1a ~lR.CALLt\111\N; Mf. Chah·~an, nCin• of it/bdnll done bv the Mount Pearl r.n~9

lb. June 4 1970 Ta~e 1113 page 9. . . Experimental Farm. That is a basic research station prior to the Federal . Government interest it was known as the Demonstration Farm. It is not a demonstration farm any longer. It is a basic research unit which does none of the kind of work that the hon. gentleman is referring to. I may say further that we did avail of the ARDA programme and that every community pasture built in this Province was built under that pro~ramme. MR.H!CK}~: I might be stupid but you know what I am saying is true.

On this, on 07, on the Improvement of Livestock, I do not know if this comes under this heading or not. On the improvement of Livestock is it under this branch of his department that advice is available to cattle ranchers and people who are on a small scale engaged in the raising of cattle in the Province .or attempting_ MR.CALLAHAN: No, Mr. Chairman - 6053

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM - 1 MR. CALLAHAN: No, Mr. Chairman, this is purely a bonus program for all kinds of animals, for sheep fairs, for prizes and bonuses at sheep fairs, for support of the artifical insemination program, for the provision of sheep dipping and dipping tanks and the dipping program on community pastures, generally the provision of services for the improvement of livestock per se. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, would the Minister tell me on standardization and marketing as I was out in the hall for a minute and(I know it is passed but this is only a courtesy)! am asking_the Minister; that is marketing of poultry products or hog products or what? MR. CALLAHAN: No, Mr.

Chairman, this is the question I have answered at least five times that this vote provides for the operation of facilities to Pleasantville ~ncluding the operating of the abattoir, the cold storage and the poultry killing plant, assistance to farmer's organizations in the operation of egg grading stations at Pleasantville, Bishops Falls and Corner Brook, assistance to farmer's organizations in operating vegetable facilities in St. John's, Bishops Falls, Lethbridge and Corner Brook, assistance to farmer's organizations in the operating of slaughter houses at Comfort Cove, Robinson& and the Codroy Valley. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Shall (07) to (09) carry? Carried. Shall (10) carry?• MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before we carry (10), with the great development which is taking place at Bishops Falls which happens to be in my riding and I am sure the Minister is very interested in the further development of that area both from the point of view of livestock and root crop. I do know that many of the farmers out there have ~omplained in the past about the lack of vet. service.and I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the Committee if there are any plans for the provision of veterinary service for that area this year? MR.

CALLAHAN: There are plans, Mr. Chairman, if we can ever get one but I think there is no field in agriculture,in this country,where there is a than greater shorta~e,in veterinarians and so we have not been able to get a veterinarian for Central Newfoundlnnd,but we have changed the terms or th• Arr•n••m•nt• wtth th• ax1at1na v•t•rinarlan ao that it would be more 6054

June 4.th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM- 2 MR. CALLAHAN: ~emunerative for them to cover Central Newfoundland than it was previously under their contracts- after we can get someone. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, on that matter and I realize this has been with us for a number of years,the alaost complete absence of vets. Is there any incentive .suchtas many others,to take courses in this particular field 1 by the Governmen~ like grants or anything for colleges? MR. CALLAHAN: Five year agricultural students, Mr.

Chairman, can go in for veterinary work if they wish but in.terms of incentives we provide a ~7,000. cash subsidy and we pay travelling expenses, mileage, meals, lodgings, you know - MR. MURPHY: At college and everything and at University you know. MR. CALLAHAN: .No, I mean this is for practising veterinaries and then we pay all the expenses of students to go. MR. MURPHY: What provides the - HR. CALLAHAN: The students we pay their tuitions, we pay their books, we pay their travels, we give them a living allowance, the whole shot. HR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR.

CALLAHAN: The same students are eligible to go for veterinary work if they want to but they choose not to. MR. HICKMAN: They spend additional years studying. MR. CALLAHAN: Well, if we have a man on five years doing vet work we certainly would not cut him off if he needed more time, it would be stupid. MR. CROSBIE: There is no special - MR. HICKMAN: If a student is taking a general agricultural program at Truro and he decides to become a veterinary surgeon he then has to go on and take additional studies after that, has he not? MR. CALLAHAN: I do not know. How many years do you go for this?

About seven or eight years. They get an agriculture degree and then they go on and do the additional work. MR. CROSBIE: Is there any program the same as there is with medical students? That is the question. Is there any special program? MR .__!:_!l!.LAHAN r Not completdy comparable with that. G0 55

.June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 MR. CROSBIE: How many veterinarians do we have? MR. CALLAHAN: We have three under contract. .JM - 3 .. MR. CROSBIE: Now in addition to the subsidy, of course, they charge a fee. I mean, the subsidy does not mean they do work. MR. CALLAHAN: The fee is limited. The fee is only five dollars, is it? The maximum fee on a call is five dollars plus whatever it costs them additional. MR. CROSBIE: Well, are they allowed to have a small- animal practice too? MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, completely open so long as it does not - MR. CROSBIE: You just said a maximum fee for cows and horses and so on.

They do not bother with cats and dogs. MR. CALLAHAN: They have nothing to do with that unless it appears that the small-animal practice continues on good service to farmers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the item carry? Carried. Shall (11) carry? MR EARLE: Insect control. MR MURPHY You will have to increase the vote about twenty-five times. That is not nearly enough. You want about $1 miLlion. MR EARLE: Mr. Chairman, the only difficult with the cancerous fungus, they are apt to spread.

We will not use any pesticides here, but while we are on pesticides, if I might be permitted to ask - I thought all of this was controlled federally, that all of these pesticides, and so on, are generally under strict federal control, and brand names, and so on, had to comply with regulations. What is the need of pesticides laboratories here. and just what do we do? It seems to be a duplication of what is being done federally, surely. MR CALLAHAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The law is laid down federally but the federal people do not have inspectors running all over the country checking on individual farmers and that kind of thing. So there is an area of operation in which the Provinces take a part and this vote is our share of the cost with the other Atlantic Provinces 7 an operating an analytical laboratory in Halifax, a pesticide laboratory. So if we have a pesticide problem or a problem of contaminated soil you can get the sample and send it up to our .jointly ··operated lab7 othet'Wise each Province would have to 6056

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM - 4 • MR. CALLAHAN: operate its own. MR. EARLE: Does the Federal Government pay anything towards it? MR. CALLAHAN: Not to my knowledge. They do not pay towards the lab . but I understand it is in the same building as the Federal Food and Drug. MR. EARLE: The lab must be a very smal~ operation really. MR. CALLAHAN: No, it is specifically for this purpose and most of the money is for salaries.! understand,and they operate out of the same building as Federal Food and Drug in Halifax but nobody else provides it so the Provinces have agreeded to do it jointly. MR.

HICKMAN: Would the Minister while he is on his feet give us a short lecture on how to get rid of dandelion? MR. CALLAHAN: I can tell the hon. gentleman how to cook them. There is a herbicide which is known as 24D which the hon. gentleman might try but I think he should try it on some of his colleagues first and see if it works. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before we carry this.

While it is realized that the Federal Government possibly has a major responsibility and jurisdiction in this area I recall hearing the Minister proclaiming on radio or television or some of the media a little while ago that he was watching very carefully the Federal Legislation which was about to come into affect. Now if that did not go far enough he made a statement that he would see to it that the Provincial Legislation would be brought before this House and passed.

I wonder if he can inform this House if he is satisfied with the Federal Legislation as such or if he is still anticipatipg what they might do and what times he asked for Provincial ~egislation? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, we have a legislation in draft stage and we have been revising it and revising it to try to get to a good position that would not infringe on Federal jurisdiction and what not and if we get it done in time we will introduce it in the new session. MR. CHAI~: Shall (11) carry? Carried. Shall (12) carry? MR. RICKMAN:· Mr. Chairman, on (12), would the hon.

Minister indicate the areas where grants or the associations to whom grants were mad~private a~ri- eblture axhih .1tiona laat year and the amounts? .· 6057

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM - 5 MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, two or three years ago we changed the regulations on exhibitions to provide that assistance would be given only in respect of bonafied u agricultural exhibitions. This made a phasing out process and there • I were two or three places where there was ·some question of doubt. I think we now have in fact phased out assistance to exhibitions that are not in fact agricultural. The last of them I think being Deer Lake last year although there is still a question there 1I would say,with Harbour Grace• ..

We think that it did not qualify but I am not prepared to say finally that it did not. In any event we now will assist only bonafied agricultural exhibitions,based on their prize list. In other words we supply the money for the prizes and this is the assistance and this is what this represents. MR. WELLS: Industrial and homecraft is out now according to the next vote, is it? MR. HICKMAN: No, no, it is not carried. .. MR. CALLAHAN: Well, they fall into the agricultural exhibitions but the prize list that is provided for us is for agricultural exhibits. MR. CROSBIE: This is just prize money is it? MR.

SMALLWOOD: These are Federal exhibitions and they have to be exhibitions of agriculture. MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, it has to be in agriculture only, it has to be predominately an.agricultural exhibition. MR. SMALLWOOD: It can be only and solely that. MR. CALLAHAN: Well, it is all sponsored by an agricultural society. MR. CROSBIE: Is all the money for prizes, is that what you are saying? MR. CALLAHAN: This is to compensate them for their prize list and to pay the allowances to judges. MR. HICKMAN: Right but this, Mr. Chairman, I suggest is where the error has been made. MR. CALLAHA.c"q : No, it is not an error. MR.

HICKMANc Oh, it is very much of an error. The hon. Minister of Finance knows the matter that I am referring to, I am sure he does. If we found growing up in various parts of the Province the fairs that were being 6058

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM- 6 MR. HICKMAN: sponsored by non-agricultural organizations but there was a great emphasis on agriculture encompassed in that fair. There would be livestock judging, home- crafts, vegetables and it had all the earmarks of an agricultural fair but those Who Sponsor it found that in order to make it financially Viable and tO make a few dollars for their particular charitable organization other features had to be included in the fair but this did not take away from it the agricultural contents.

The one that I know most aboutrand that is why I said the hon. the Minister of Finance be~ause I believe he was involved at one point in the committee)was the Lions Fair that used to be held at Grand Bank, for the Burin Peninsula and really for the South Coast·'' At that fair you would find during the day exhibitions and judging going on of livestock and vegetables, farming and agriculture generally and in the evening they used to have an occasional game of things that had very little to do with agriculture. MR. CALLAHAN: Bingo, do they have bingo down there? MR.

HICKMAN: Well, I would not say 1~ was bingo but if you paid your money you might win and you might not. But be that as it may,during the past year or so that club,as I understand it,has not received any prize money on the grounds that it is not a predominantly agricultural fair and it is not sponsored by an agricultural society. But, Mr. Chairman, anyone who visited that(and I know that the hon. Minister's predecessor and his predecessor used to take

part in the opening of this function down there and were very ·' ioud in their praise of the contribution that this fair was making to agriculture on the South Coast) MR. COLLINS: You will have no worries this year provided there is an election called. MR. HICKMAN: But last year an4 the year before,it has now deteriorated into nothing more than the ordinary fall fair that one finds throughout various parts of the Province.

This may be desirable and the money may be used and it is for very worthwhile causes but the fact is that competition, for want of a better word, amongst the farmers on the South Coast of Newfoundland,has now disappeared. They have no opportunity to diaplay their warea, they have no 6059

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM- 7 MR. HICKMAN: opportunity as they did two or three years ago to receive profession advice from the judges who were brought in, competent men to judge their livestock. We have, whether hon. members realize it or not, a fair amount of cattle raising still going on on the Burin Peninsula not on the flying "L" scale .. but by individuals and cattle breeding. They benefited a great deal from the professional advice they got and so did the farmers in the Winterland and in the Fortune area but suddenly there was a change.

Now for ten years this was great, it was commended by agriculturalists and by the Minister of Agriculture and then suddenly down came an edict, "You are not an agricultural society, this is not predominately an agricultural fair so no more prize money." You go there now and you see no exhibitions at all, no homecraft, no vegetables, no cattle and the only thing outside of the ordinary games of chance~you will see a competition in fish filleting one evening during the fair.

Whilst the money is still being raised and still being used for charitable organizations the whole purpose of this,in so far as that part of this Province is concerned, I suspect the Deer Lake area is in the same position, has disapneared and it seems to me that that, without any real cost to Government, some of that $25,000. could be put back into prize money for these areas in Newfoundland where we did have agricultural exhibitions not sponsored by agricultural societies. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, God forgive,that I should protract the debate but I suppose I have to say this and I hope I can say it very briefly. God save and protect us from these farcical agricultural exhibitions, utter and coatemptable farces. I h'lve go,~e to so many of them, I have opened so many of them, I have been the speaker at so many of them,with my stomach turning. Agricultural exhibitions; a few spuds and a few bits of vegetables stuck up in a corner.

Utterly farcical! 'I·hat is why we stopped it, and we say now that we will give prizes and we will give money to help to get judges and so on for actual agricultural exhibitions and we are absolutely right in that.~nd all the clubs and all the organizations around will be and giving up money:to raise money for their good purposes but not agricultural purposes ,neve.rtheless good purposes, but their own purposes, not A~ricul ture, GOGO

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1114 JM- 8 MR. SMALLWOOD: always try to hook a few dollars, maybe not all of them and maybe not always those that do1 but a · good many of them try to hook a few dollars out of this grant to help their own cause and not to help agriculture. • It is farcical. it is utterly ridiculous, it is utterly farcical, it is a cod, it is a bit of codology that is what it is.

I have seen agricultural fairs in Newfound­ land that would do your :,hearts good, do your hearts good and year after year after year I go to this fair and that fair and open it and I am interested in agriculture, I am, I am interested. You go and see a few cod fish over there and a few spuds over there and that is the agricultural fair and then a bit of homecraft and what is the rest of itr Every commission agent with a booth pushing his own product and then a few local manufacturers putting their products there for sale as well. It is not even a fair of field and factory, it is a fair for commission agents.

That is what it is and a trapeze artist, an exhibition to bring people in.But to call them agricultural fairs is an insult to the word, just an insult. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, may I persue the insult of the agricultural fairs? Obviously the hon. the Premier does not have a clue as to what has to go in the fair that I have been referring to. KR. CALLAHAN: Well, let us spend next fall travelling around and see where the good ones are. MR. HICKMAN: Oh, sure, sure! This is what is wrong with the agricultural policy.

You have to have a full-fledged agricultural fair and in how many areas in Newfoundland can you have them? Codroy Valley, Cormack, maybe at the Goulds and that would be the end of it. MR. SMALLWOOD: It would not be the end of it. MR. HICKMAN: But what I do suggest to this Committee is that in other areas in this Province where they are making an attempt at farming that they should not be excluded certainly because they cannot put on a full-fledged agricultural fair. MR. SMALLWOOD: They can put it on. There is nothing to stop them. MR.

HICKMAN: If you go to the fair in Deer Lake or the fair in Harbour Grace or the fAir in Grdnrl Rdnk theRe promoters or the service cluba are not trying to hook 111oney out of the Oovernmene for tlut1r prttmotton. 6061

·June 4, 1970, Tape 1115, Page 1 apb MR. HICKMAN: All they are asking of the Government is that certain prizes be given in the field of agriculture. MR. CALLAHAN: prizes? MR. HICKMAN: Who is going to ~ay for sending judges down to award the That there be a prize - well what is wrong about sending a ·- judge down to the Burin Peninsula? MR. CALLAHAN: MR. HIC!GfAN: MR. CALLAHAN: MR. HICKMAN: MR. CALLAHAN: Ah come on, come off it. Is it not the purpose that when you send a judge ••••• You do not send them to judge nothin~. What do you mean, you do not send them to judge nothing. Exactly what I said. MR.

HICKMAN: This is what I said, this is why the farmers of Newfoundland have not been paid in years and years and years. MR. CALLAHAN: The reason we stopped paying is because the fairs had nothing in them to justify it. MR. HIC~AN: You do not know what you are talking about. MR. CALLAHAN: I do know what I am talking about MR. HICKMAN: In other words, you do not have a clue, he does not know what he is talking about. MR. CALLAHAN: I see much further than the bon. gentleman is seein~. MR. HIC~~= He does not know what he is talking about Mr.

Chairman, the simple fact is this, that you go to some of these fairs and in these fairs you will find limited exhibition, it has to be because, you do not have a great farming area in some of these places but you do have farmers. You do have farmers who want to improve their crops. You do have cattle raisers on the Burin Peninsula who want to improve their stock.

You do have a pretty good farming community in the district of Placentia West in Winterland and these people want professional advice and a judge who goes down to the Burin Peninsula, or goes to Deer Lake, or goes to Harbour Grace does not simply go out there to give a few ribbons to the man or person who owns the best bred cattle. What he does do, if he goes out and havin~ judged the cattle, and having awarded the ribbons to the winner, he also meets I would 6062

. .{ June j, 1970, Tape 1115, Page 2 -- apb hope, and used to meet with the breeders of cattle and give them professional advice as to how they could improve their stock. He does the same thing in the field of agriculture. He does the same thi~g •••••• ~. ' ' ·: :,:• · MR. CALLAHAN·:" In theory. MR. HICKMAN: Not in theory I have seen them do it. I have seen the session after the judging is over. MR.. CALLAHAN: Where there are.cattle exhibited they do it. MR. HICKMAN: Now this is all gone.

There is no opportunity in these areas for the farmers to get together to get this professional advice to compare their product, to compare their year's work, and why is it that we have to.continually persist in excluding these areas from the benefit~ from the so called agricultural policy? The simple fact ~!r. Chairman is that it points up what I said earlier in this committee; that if the farmers of this Province in most areas want good professional advice~hey have to go to the Federal Experimental Station at Mount Pearl. MR. CALLAHAN: Let them go to the bon. gentleman, he knows all about it. MR.

HICKMAN: No, I do not know anything about it and I am the first to admit it. MR. CALLAHAN: Yeah, for one that bas been yakking so long ••••.••• MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): It h amazing MR. HICKMAN: But I can spy a Minister of Agriculture who would not know a cow from a horse without any real difficulty, and I can spot a Hinister of Agriculture who knows nothing about what is going on the Burin Peninsula in the way of farming. That is easy to spot, no trouble to spot that at all. MR.. CALLAHAN: I know haw much the hon. gentleman knows, no trouble at all. MR.

HICKMAN: No trouble to spot the silliness of the reasoning and the abandoning of fairs in place• like Deer Lake, Harbour Grace because they are not sponsored by truly agricultural or~anizations. ~· CALLAHAN_:__ That is ri~ht, the hon. gentleman knows it all 6063 T

l\ June J, 1970, Tape 1115, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: And these fairs, not only do they take agricultural products within their scope, but they also take within their scope a portion of the fisheries of this Province. MR. CALLAHAN: We will have to call the bon. gentleman when the fairs •••••••• MR. HIC~~: Now I have been at fairs, and again the one I attend each year, the one at Grand Bank, this does not have booths that are exclusively commission agents. Quite the contrary, the Federal Department of Agriculture has its booth, it did until the prizes were cut out.

The Federal Department of Fisheries had its booth. MR. CALLAHAN: The Federal Department of Agriculture? ~m. HICKMAN: Yes the Federal Department of Agriculture and the Nutritional Council of Canada has its booth, and some fisheries association, I forget the name of it, they have their booth and all of this is obviously not to sell their products to those who are attending, but to provide professional advice to the people engaged in these primary industries.

You will see nutritionists, you will see fishery inspectors there, and they used to be up to the time that the Government forced this to degenerate into simply -a game of chance, you would see them there giving advice to primary producers if they wanted it. This is gone n~ and the bon. minister justifies 1t because it is not truly an agricultural fair. Because you have a gallon of "spuds" here, and a couple of cod tails somewhere else. That is a lot of nonsense Mr. Chairman MR. CALLAHAN: Come off_it, come off it. You are darn right it is a lot of nonsense. MR.

HICXMAN: 1 have seen half of that John Burke High School just filled, and so has the bon. Minister of Finance filled with the produce of the soil ••••••••• MR. JONES: ~ -:r. Cahirman, I am sorry, I cannot let that remark pass, that the John Burke Memorial High School was filled with agricultural fair. It is just not true, I was associated with this fair from the very beginning • I was associated with it before the Burke High School was built, when it waa h•1d in anoth•r buildinp.,and at the early start an effort was made to 6064

4 June J, 1970, Tape 1115, Page 4 -- apb make it an agricultural and a fishery exhibition. Gradually,the last year I was associated with i~you had a job to find any agricultural eXhibits in that hall. MR.. SMALLWOOD: That is right, that is the story a~l over- MR. JONES: And furthermore, at the same time there was an agricultural society of ·· .liinterland, there was another one at.

I bel;ieve, some part of Marystown, and I was posed with the question, if we give prize money to the Lions Club in Grand Bank, (and that is what my hon. friend is talking about)for a few bottles of jam, and the last time I attended the fair Mr. Chairman, it was all pushed off on one side of the school, you had a job to find it, it was out in a corridor. I do not think my bon. friend can contradict me. There were actual agricultural Associations on the Burin Peninsula that were endeavouring to get professional help, were endeavouring to get •••••••• MR. CALLAHAN: And getting it. MR.

JONES: And getting it, and the bulk of the - there was no great interest in the agricultural - it was not an agricultural fair, it was the Lions annual raffle and fair to get money. I was vice-president for years. Gradually ~he interest died, and at one time I saw I would say almost one inspector and judge for almost every exhibit that was there.

When I was faced with the pr~position as to whether or not I could continue to recommend prize money for the Lion!sClub Fair in Grand Bank, when the facts were presented to me and I was still the member for the distric~I had to agree with the Department officials that it was not truly an agricultural fair . and I was not justified in pressing for prize money. MR.. BARBOUR: I have been to a couple of fairs in my time and the one in Clarenville did have a certain amount of agriculture items there. For instance, they had good potatoes, they had good turnips, they had good carrots, beet and cabbage.

They also had jam of various kinds and I must say, in fact I opened the fair over there last year in Clarenville. ·rhey invited me over(~he hon. member was sick or something)and I went over and did it for them . 6065

June ~. 1970, Tape 1115, Page 5 -- apb There was quite a number of exhibits from Bonavista South there, It was about the only fair that I have seen where there was so much agriculture on display. I have been at other fairs - no~ we have one in . . Bonavista MR.. SMALLWOOD: The problem is this, year after year there are less than the year before MR.. BARBOUR: Getting less every year, getting less every year and I doubt now, we have a fair in Bon~vista by the Lion's Club at the stadium, I doubt - I do not thing there is anything there grown in a garden or on a farm.

But elarenville, is the only place that I know of - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudbile) MR. BARBOUR: Sir, it is not my district, I just went to oblige the hon. member for Trinity North so I did not go into that matter. I do not know whether there was or not. I know that there was a lot of crocheting work, you know what 1 mean, knitting of socks and sweaters and thin~like that. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Cooking, and baking, and jamming and bottling and canning all good •••••• MR. BARBOUR: Yes, yes, apart from that,that was all that was there except for some advertising like a deisel engine or something like that.

There was a fox there ?ounded up or something like that, but apart from that there was not much to it. You could go through this fair I would say within I would say at least fifteen minutes and then you would be tired of it. MR. HICKEY: I do not think the bon. minister is going to suggest that we do away with the agricultural exhibition in Flatrock. MR.. CALLAHAN: Not at all MR. HICKEY: I fell in the light of the remarks I should come to the defence of those people of Flatrock and the general area •. · Well, if we are ~oing to wipe out agriculture exhibitions MR.

SMAL.LI~D: We a1:e not ~· CALLAHAN~ We are not talking about agr~cultural exhibitions at all we are talking about non-agricultural exhibitions, where the vote has been cut to a token. 6066

l/ June I, 1970, Tape 1115, rage 6, -- apb MR.. HICKEY: I was under the impression that we were on number twelve. Anyway Mr. Chairman, MR. SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman is a sumptuous supporter: !-IR. HICKEY: 1 am MR. SMALLWOOD: ~enuine, admirable, prepared, let us help them in every way. MR. HICKEY: I can assure the bon. Premier that 1 am and that is the reason I am on my feet. MR. CALLAHAN: The bon. gentleman agrees with the policy then I hope. MR. HICKEY: Pardon! ------ MR. CALLAHAN: He agrees with the policy MR. SMALLweOD: He is a good sensible man how can he fail? MR.

HICKEY: I agree with supporting this kind of exhibition, 1 certainly do. MR. HICKEY: To the exclusion of the others? MR. HICKEY: No, no, not necessarily MR. CALLAHAN: That is what I mean, does the bon. gentleman agree with the policy? MR. HICKEY: I am prepared to admit that there are arguments on both sides of this question, but, what I would like to point out Mr. Chairman is that the Government shou~d encourage and continue to encourage and . even in a greater way than they are at the moment if possible this kind of exhibition.

I look at it from another point of view as well and for example, the efforts - that are being made by the Minister of Social Services • and Rehabilitation to get people helping themselves, to get people raising their own crops, and to in a general way get them into helping themselves. Surely there is no better way of doing this than providing some kind of competition and some kind of incentive for them to do it. The exhibition in Flatrock, in my own district for example can boast of some of the finest vegetables certainly that you will find in most of the areas in Newfoundland.

I have not had the pleasure of visiting too 6067 many exhibitions, but, I am going on what some people say who have visited r

June 4,1970, Tape 1115, Page 7 -- apb ~ose other places, and I know they would not go to Flatrock and joke with the people and tell them their exhibitions are wonderful if they are not really good. I think,Sir, that in my own area there have been people who have not grown vegetables for a number of years who are getting back into _this kind of thing now. Surely the like of this should be continued and promoted. ,· There is certainly no one making money in terms of commission agents in this particular area.

It is -strictly the local people exhibiting their own product- ~~eir homecraft, their vegetables, fish, crocheting, carpets of one kind and another and mats. Quite a number of items, quite a variety. MR. CALLAHAN: Fields and fields of fish MR. SMALLWOOD: Mercy, mercy. MR. CALLAHAN: They grow fish down there, they grow crocheting down there. MR. RICKEY: Fish? MR. SMALL~D: (Inaudible) MR. HICKEY: There is fish, certainly there is fish exhibited in Flatrock and there certain~y aremats and crochet work and jam, and all of those sorts of things. Mr. Chairman, •••••• MR.

CALLAHAN: And the bon •. gentleman goes on exhibition every year too. MR. SMALLWOOD: Exhibit number one, and he gets a prize every election. MR. HICKEY: I go every year, I go every year Mr. Chairman, I would not miss it because, I really believe that this kind of thing should be supported. If the member for the district does not go, if the member for the district did not yisi t and support this kind of thing.. we could carry it Mr. Chairman, MR. SMALLWOOD: Do we carry it? MR. HICKEY: We can carry it Mr.

Chairman when I am finished, but certainly, when the representativeaof the people do not support this kind of pro~ect .••• ~-CAL~: It ia getting harder to carry every minute MR. HICKEYi Then it would certainly indicate that he has no interest in it. On the contrary to that Mr. Chairman, I wholeheartedly support it and I think 6068

June 4, 1970, Tape 1115, Page 8 -- apb that if there is any way that we can increase our efforts in this connection we should do so. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 13 carried? Carried. MR. JONES: Mr. Chairman, I have two small amendments to move on behalf of the Minister here and at the rate we are going I am torn between two minds as to whether I will move it now or wait until I come back from Winnipeg. I think to be completely safe I better move them now. MR. WELLS: Just in case it might get through by then. MR. JONES: Just in case, but I feel when I get back they will still be on boglands. Mr.

Chairman, the two amendments which I wish to move under 815-04-Q1, the total of $10,000 to be changed to $35,000. an increase of $25,000. The item under 04-04 boglands, changed from $100,000. reduced . by $25,000. to $75,000. By doing this Mr. Chairman, we make an adjustment in the subheads without changing the overall total. I move this amendment. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, in connection with blueberries. I notice there was $44,000. spent in 1969 and that is why it is being increased to $35,000. it is not practical to cut it down to $10,000.

In connection with blueberries, I have been contacted by a blueberry exporter who wants his point brought up. It is Mr. Bursey of Fort Amherst Seafoods. I believe that . that company used to e~ort grade "A" frozen •••••• AN HON. MnmER: (Inaudible) ~~CROSBIE: That is the Confederation campaign, yes that is right. He used to export frozen blueberries and used the cold storage at Pleasantville so I understand,which is not the abattoir, and he can no longer get space, and this abattoir is used and the cold storage is used for other things. Last year he was shipping blueberries fresh from the Province.

They were being trucked from the Province out to Nova Scotia or somewhere like that in trucks. I believe they.are shipped from St. JOhn's and Hare Bay. Now the burden of his complaint is that these are field run blueberrie•· MR. JONES: Will the hon. member permit me? MR. CROSBIE: Yes ------ 6069

June 4, 1970, TApe 1115, Page 9 -- apb MR. JONES: I have made a motion that these two subheads be chan~ed and I would hope that the items would be debated in the light of the change in ' the totals. MR. CHAIIU!AN: Shall the amendments carry? Carried. MR. CROSBIE: These are field run blueberries which under the regulations are berries winnowed and picked in the field for shipment reasonably clean, . reasonably free from leaves, twigs etc. That is one kind of blueberries. There is a grade "A" blueberry aud there is blueberry substandard. AN HON. MEMBER: What are those red ones? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know, you would have to ask the red berry expert. Under

section 7, subsection 7 of the re~lations, the minister •••••••• MR. CALLAHAN: Whorts cannot be jammed. MR. CROSBIE: Sets a fee at a rate per pound for each inspection and the blueberry packer has to pay this fee at a certain rate per pound. Now, if the inspector is inspecting blueberries which are being cleaned an frozen and processed to be shipped out I think the charge is one half cent a pound. Of course, the blueberry inspector has to be there the whole day to inspect all the berries and stamp them and so on, ( not the berries but the boxes presumably). MR. SMALLWOOD: That is not true.

They inspect the berries one by one ••••• MR. CROSBIE: I imagine it would be a lot of trouble with blueberries or green peas if they all had to be stamped. AN HON. HEMBER: They pick the rocks off the boxes at the most. MR. CROSBIE: In any event the inspectors at the freezin~ plant, he spends the day there inspecting the berries before he stamps them as grade 'A' ' · Now, if they are field run blueberries, all the inspector can do is stamp the boxes before they go.

He does not spend the whole day examining the berries as they are bein~ picked and so on, eo he does not have nearly the work, but the inspector is charging the people shipping out field-run blueberries the same inspection fee, one half cent per pound as if they are being proeessed in Newfoundland, frozen, and then shipped out. This is causing some problem in connection with exporting field-run blueberries from the Province. 6070

June 4, 1970, Tape 1115, Page 10 -- apb Has the minister given any consideration to changing the fee, or lowering the fee for the inspection of field-run blueberries? The people who are ultimately bearing the half cent per pound charge are the people who pick the blueberries, who are goin~ to paid one halt cent a pound less for picking blueberries. Could the minister tell us what the posit~on is. MR.. CALLAHAN: In a discussion with Mr. Bursey on the matter of several thousands of dollars Mr.

Bursey owes us for rent at Pleasantville, we have very simply told him that we are not prepared to rent him any more space until he is prepared to pay for space he has rented. In the matter of field run blueberries, it is the law that this crop be inspected. It is the law, we MR. CROSBI~: It is a regulation. MR. CALLAHAN: We do not wish to allow other than a clean product to go out of the Province, and in addition to that if they are not cleaned and insepcted here then it is done in Nova Scotia by Nova Scotia labour and why should it not be done here. All Mr.

Bursey is trying to do in my opinion is get an edge over operators. He has not asked that the law be changed, he has asked that he be allowed to ship out uninspected field-run berries. Now he is trying to get an edge, go into Nova Scotia a half cent a pound less or whatever it is, whf~h would mean that somebody here who is getting some employment inspecting and cleaning berries would not get it and somebody in Nova Scotia would. It is not a very logical position. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I do not ~gree with the minister MR. CALLAHAN: I did not expect that the hon. gentleman would, Hr.

Bursey does not either but, you know that does not make the position wronr. MR. CROSBIE: You do not mind if somebody else speaks on this. MR. CALLAHAN: No, go ahead. MR. CROSBIE~ If anybody takes a position except the minister, does the minister mind? ~- c~LA~~ Not at all, go ahead. ~~-- -~~~BIE: The point is, that Mr. Bursey's point is that tbe_inapection fee for field-run blueberries should be less since the inspector has to 6071

·June 4, 1970, TApe 1115, Page 11 -- apb spend much less time at that particular job. MR. CALLAHAN: That is not his position at all ~m. CROSBIE: That is the position as given to me, and that is the position I am suggesting to the House. Not that the fee be done away with altogether, or that only Mr. Bursey be allowed to ship them without inspection, nor has he asked that they be shipped without inspection. MR. CALLAHAN: I am telling you what he has asked the Government to do. MR.

CROSBIE: But that the fee.for the inspection of field-run blueberries be less than the fee is for blueberries processed and frozen here in Newfoundland and then shipped. Now the Minister's answer I understand is that he does not agree and therefore will not lower the fee. MR. CALLAHAN: That is right MR. CROSBIE: All right, that is the minister's answer, Hut do not pretend it is some other position. MR. CALLAHAN: I am saying Mr. Chairman, 6072

June 4. 1970 Tape #1116 Page 1 MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman. I am saying what Mr~ Bursey came to me with. the proposal he made to me which I rejected and why I rejected it. Now I could not care less what he said to the hon. gentleman. All I know is what he has asked the Government to do. and I have said why the Government are not prepared to do it. MR. HICKMAN: Forget Mr. Bursey. in request that there be a reduction - is that reasonable? MR. CALLAHAN: I do not think it is. MR. HICKMAN: You do not think it is? MR. CROSBIE: The minister could care less. MR.

CALLAHAN: It means then again. that we subsidize what will have to be done in any event in Nova Scotia. namely the cleaning and inspectio~ of them. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman. the minister's inspector does'not clean the JW blueberries. What kind of nonsense is that? The minister's inspector inspects the blueberries to see that they are clean and that they are graded for field-run blueberries. He does not go around cleaning the blueberries. What nonsense! JdR. CALLAHAN: All right. let us subsidize the inspector then. That means more cost. MR.

CROSBIE: The fact is that inspection charges is paid for by the people who pick the blueberries. They are paid less for picking the blueberries MR. CALLAHAN: Does not somebody have to make up the difference to the inspector. or does he just simply take a cut in pay? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: What does that have to do with the inspector's pay? carried. MR. CROSBIE: Carried. not at all. It is not carried at all. The minister is subsidizing poultry. The minister is subsidizing hogs. The minister is subsidizing this. that and the other. and when the minister is asked to 6073

June 4, 1970 Tape 11116 Page 2 JW help out with blueberries at half a cent a pound, inspection fee, the minister does not want to do it. There is nothing about this request and a hundred thousand requests that have been made from farmers for subsidization. The egg farmers and the hog farmers and the rest of it. Why should Mr. Bursey be a subject of scorn from the minister because he wants assistance MR.. CALLAHAN: Nobody has scorned anybody. MR~SR9SBIE: Well that is what I call it, scorn and contempt, It is a contemptous attitude - the minister could not care less. Yes, obviously the minister could care less.

That is obvious. Agricultural products throughout the Province are being subsidized, and be has requested some help to field-run blueberries a-half cent a pound which the minister does not want to reduce. • MR.. SMALLWOOD: The Government has spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars to help the blueberry industry. Many hundreds of thousands. MR. HICKMAN: Some Newfoundlanders suggest that there is an industry here - a small industry • a few dollars we need - in the proper manufacturing and maturing of blueberry wine. MR.

CALLAHAN: The bon. member better be careful considering where his own district - it ·is a tee-totally district. MR. CROSBIE: The minister is running off at the mouth again, MR. CALLAHAN: Well I have heard a gentleman at a certain meeting in Gander declare that he should be minister of Economic Development because he bas a blueberry wine industry going, but other than that - MR. HICKMAN: But apparently there is a prospect - MR. MURPHY: What is the situation on our mink farms now Mr. Chairman? MR. CALLAHAN: The situation Mr.

Chairman. as I told the House in answer to a question the other day, that there are some twenty fur farmers still, who this year will produce ab.out eighty or ten thousand first class animals. Mr. Chairman, I think that the Committee knows that the entire fur industry bas been depressed for some time. It has not been helped by the attention drawn to the seal industry, and there is no question- it is in .a slump. It has had . a very difficult time. There are still some people hanging on and 6074 ..

June 4, 1970 Tape #1116 Page 3 I think are making a dollar at it. MR. MURPHY: They do not have to use a bat to kill the minks do they? MR. CALLAHAN: No, I do not think so. MR. HICKMAN: Would the bon. ministe 'r indicate where the coiiiiDUDity pastures will be established in Newfoundland this year? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, I suppose there is no program under which we JW . have more requests outstanding at the moment in t9e Community Pasture Program.

We have in operation this season fourteen community pastures in the Province, and we have another six which are under development and on which development will continue this year. MR. SMALLWOOD: May 1 ask the minister - this part of our program of ignoring agriculture - MR. MURPHY: We are talking about pasture lands now. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is not agriculture. Pasture lands are not agriculture. HR. CALLAHAN: Pasture lands are not agriculture? HR. MURPHY: I do not see any heading for ignoring agriculture here - just pasture land. MR. CALLAHAN: Well there may not be a heading Mr.

Chairman, but there is a big head of steam about it the past couple of days. Mr. Chairman. the pastures in operation this year will be Cochrane Pond, Salmon Cove, Comfort Cove, Searstown, St. Shott's, Cape Anguille, Winterland rather, Brigus, Bay Roberts, Port Rexton, Colinet, Robinsons, Long Point, and Fox Trap. Six will continue in development. It takes two years generally to develop the pastures Mr. Chairman.

The land has to be obtained and fenced and treated and seeded in the first year, and allow the first year to establish itself as grass land, and usually the actual usuage takes place· in the next year. know HR. SMALLWOOD: Does the bon. member"how many will be put out on pasture from the other side, after the next election? · MR. MURPHY: Tha latest survey shows there will be thirty-three from the 6075

June 4, 1970 Tape #1116 Page 4 JW other side put out on pasture. MR. SMALLWOOD: Thirty-three? Latest survey? MR. MURPHY: Thirty-three. A survey conducted by a certain Party. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is quite a survey. MR. COLLINS: How does that compare with the Premier's survey? MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not have a survey. MR. HICKMAN: There was a farmer named MacLaren who did the survey. He is a good agriculturist. MR. CALLAHAN: Do you suppose Mr. Chairman, that I might continue? MR. WELLS: Be wants to go to pasture. MR.

CALLAHAN: The pastures under development at West Bay tenter, Peter's Arm River, Riverhead, Cormack, Micmac Lake on the Baie Verte road, and Spencer's Bridge. MR. MURPHY: Riverhead St. Mary's? Or Harbour Grace? • MR. CALLAHAN: Riverhead, St. Mary's. And in addition to that Mr. Chairman, we hope to start ten new pastures this year which will make a total - then within two years of thirty - MR. HICKMAN: Where are the ten - MR. CALLAHAN: Sir, will the bon. gentleman please be patient? MR. HICKMAN: What takes you so long to say something? MR.

CALLAHAN: There was a meeting and we said we would attempt to undertake that project. The pastures that are to start this year are Harbour Grace, in Trinity Bay a regional pasture I am not sure of its location. Down the Trans Canada access road to Argentia. Argentia access Road. Bonavista Sottth, Codroy Valley. We are considering locations in the Bonavista South, Codroy Valley, Cape Shore, St. Mary's Bay, Musgravetown, Woods Island, Bay of Islands in Humber West. MR. MURPHY: You are going to need all the pastures you can get up there. MR. CALLAHAN: On the Southern Shore near Ferryland. Now there is one here Mr.

Chairman, that aays Fortune - Burin Peninsula. I do not think that is 6076

June 4, 1970 Tape 11116 Page 5 JW correct. I think there is another name there. But those are the ten Mr. Chairman. Those are the ten we will start this year. To date there have been 44,000 acresfenced, 2,895 acres improved. with the extended program which will fence 24,600 improved, 26.500 acres - we will have roughly 70.000 acres of good pasture, and that is some small help to agriculture Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKMAN: For purposes of clarification, Mr.

Chairman, the Community Pastures Report, that is the Point May, Dantzic Point Area1: MR CALLAHAN: Of course it is. .That is what we said we would do, and that is what we are going to do. MR. STRICKLAND: I would like to give special consideration to the 'one • for Trinity South. I will tell the Committee why. In the area from Heart's Desire to Blaketown, both places inclusive, there are today many hundreds upon hundreds sheep. The people who own them are keenly desirous of increasing the number. Today they have to take their sheep to Shearstown, Bay Roberts, and that area is already overstocked.

So much so that we find out they are now - a lot of the sheep running wild during the summer season, and this poses a great problem. You take a man coming down in the morning going into a shop, where you have had twenty-five or thirty sheep laying around there all night. and you know what he has to do before he allows customers in. I am receiving a lot of complaints and I strongly urge the minister to give special consideration, because I have been told by good authority that within three years increased number there to five thousand - if they can get the proper controlled pasture land.

Please Sir, give it every consideration this year. MR. CALLAHAN: It will probably be fenced this year Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALLWOOD (W. R.) : Mr. Chairman, no it is not carried Mr. Chairman. Right behind you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it is unfortunate that your seat seems to be a bit too far uu and you cannot see behind. Would the they minister tell us have any plansformaking any pasture land in the Jackson's Cove area of Green Bay? I understand Sir, that the people down there, the sheep breeders and cattle breeders,.have been after some pasture land for that 6077 J..

June 41 1970 Tape 11116 Page 6 JW area. Does the minister have any plana for pasture land down in the Jackson's Cove, Silverdale area of Green Bay? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, the pasture now under development as 1 have mentioned at Micmac Lake on the Baie Verte highway has been jointly agreed to by the farmers of the Silverdale Jackson's Cove area, and other farmers around that general area - the location is agreed as the regional pasture. The distance is about forty miles, but that is nothing - they bring the animals in the Spring and they take them home in the Fall.

But this is the pasture that will serve that area. HR. SMALLWOOD: Before the bon.· minister takes his chair, I would like to ask a question. It used to be the case that substantial numbers of sheep would be carried by truck and put on pasture out on the bogland on the Salmonier Line. And they would be carried distances of sixty, seventy or eighty miles. Is that still done? Are the Colinet boglands occupied· by sheep brought there from considerable distances away each year?

And how would that compare with what the hon. minister has just said, that in reply to a question from Green Bay - there is to be a pasture land to which they will come from Silverdale and Southwest Arm of Green Bay there. What distance would that be? And will you answer both questions? HR. CALLAHAN: Compared very favourably. Yes. Mr. Chairman. Sheep are still brought to that area from long distances. In the Green Bay situation, the distance actually is compared very favourably. At Colinet people are coming from all areas, for example, Trinity Bay - we know they are coming from distances up to sixty-five miles.

Certainly well in excess of forty to fifty miles. So it compares pretty favourably. MR. BARBOUR: I will not be a moment. The member for Trinity South gave me food for thought. I know the pastures will charge the cow five dollars 1 think it is - I mean the owner of the cow five bucka, and I believe it is for sheep one dollar, and I believe calves and lambs are free. Now this is my question. Through the Terra Nova National Park, almost any evening 6078

June 4, 1970 Tape #1116 Page 7 JW after dusk, especially when it is foggy, it is difficult to drive over that beautiful Liberal pavement to the Park because the numerous horses which roam at large - MR. MURPHY: It is the Liberal manure that bothers me. MR.. BARBOUR: The Torie~ horses ·- is there anything Sir, any provision made where a horse must be impounded 1 or are they going to feed with the sheep and the lambs - lie down with the lambs, and lie down with the sheep? MR.. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, I·am told at the moment, we do not accept horses at all on community pastures - that if the need grows and if it is required to be done and we can afford to do it, we might have some se~re~ate~ areas for the pastures for that purpose. At the moment we do not allow horses at community pastures. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before we carry 04. I have looked up some figures on bogland development over the past ten years, beginning 1961 to 1970, which shows that we spent in the vicinity $1 million on this particular project.

I would like for the minister to indicate to the Committee what we have to show for this particular investment. I know we have a few acres at Terra Nova and Colinet and a few other areas, and hopefully we have done some basic research. Would the minister be prepared to indicate at what of conclusions his department have arrived at in termsAthe success of the past development, and the wisdom of carrying it on, and future developments. Undoubtedly the cost since Confederation would have been much higher.

What I am trying to get at Sir, is what have we really - what has been derived from this in terms of returns to the Province? Probably the minister could also indicate what areas have been cleared, and what produce,if any, have been grown, and where it has been disposed of? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, this is a very large question, and I will try to be brief.

We have been doing work on boglands now for about I think, twelve years, and for·the first three or four years, the cost entirely was that I think of the Province, And then the Government of Canada came into H Uft~U ~lit~ MellA pr~Jl!Ot, Aftcl un4•r tho Atlantic Davolop1110nt Board and the 6079

June 4, 1970 Tape 11116 Page 8 program was accelerated. The Government 1in the first instance, brought from Ireland, Mr. Vincent Healey. who is an expert in his own country, and who when he arrived here became if not the foremost expert, one of the two or three foremost experts on this side of the ocean, in this matter of reclaiming and making usable boglands. So what we have done extensively Mr. Chairman, is to spend far more than one million dollars, I think the total amount of expenditure is closer to two million dollars, when you consider the work done in addition to simply draining and that kind of thin~.

It is much more than that. But it has been essentially experimental. and as I told the Bouse last year at the same point in the Estimates, we have done I think, all the experimenation that we usefully can do. the problem now is getting equipment that can be used properly on these areas which are very difficult to drain entirely of water. You have to have wide-track equipment. It is expensive. Farmers find that they cannot afford to have equipment for bogland as well as equipment for mineral soil, because their costs increase very larg~ly, perhaps as much as double. So we are 6080 JW

Julie 4tb., 1970 Tape no 1117 Page 1 Mr. Callahan. attempting to get assistance for manufacturers from the Government of Canada, from research people and elsewhere on this problem of providing equipment or finding equipment properly designed. The Irish told me last Fall, when I visited with the Department of Fisheries and Agriculture, actually, that they had been using equipment manufactured in Russia, and they agreed to make inquiries for us to try to obtain some of this equipment for us or some design patterns or some suggestions.

We, perhaps, could have similar equipment manufactured under licence, as a Goverruaent, under licence from the Russian Government and sometime after I got back, the Irish people informed us, I think,· that the Russians had gone out of manufacture~· so there was no possibility of purchasing equipment and that in the opinion of the Irish peopie, there would not be sufficient demand to justify factories to produce this kind of equip.ent. It would not be the demand. So, this problem still exists.

In the meantime, we think that we shoUld not be concerned, only with the agriculture possibilities of these boglands but also with the possibilities of commercial forests on them, and there has been experi.entation on that line too. All the money that has been spent, which is being used both in terms of pointing to the possibilities of agricultural as well as forestry development. This has led. ~ to the . departure, yesterday,: of a group headed by the Deputy Minister of Resources, Mr. Malone, with, I think, Dr. Parrell, the head of the Federal forest service in the Province; Mr.

Sharp, the management-forestQr recently appointed to deal with forestation; Mr. Willi ... from our Department of Agriculture who is our land officer - land development officer and representatives of Bowaters, Price, Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical and Javalin Papar Products, the four aajor industria& involved in this Province - the two Governments, and they will be over there for about ten days going into detail over some of the ground that was discussed 6081

JUne 4th., 1970 Tape no 1117 Page 2 Mr. Callahan. last Fall, in the hope that we can use the benefit of the experimentation. This $2 million of expenditure, perhaps, is much and may be more in terms of forestry than in agriculture where the problem is greater because of the harvesting difficulties, annual harvest problems with agricultural products. The return ha~ not been sufficiently - the expense is very high for machinery, and we are not sure how far we ean go commercially with root crops. Row with grass crops, it is a completely different thing. You have at least a fifty per cent better yield of grass.

The grass, as the premier said the other night, is up like that on boglands. We know that for pasture purposes, these bogland areas are tied in in many cases with community pastures. We have a tremendous potential there for the provision of feed. The area reclaimed - the last figure I have is 3,572 acres of bogland - 3,572 aeres 1 which is a pretty fair acreage. as it is expensive land to develop. The equipment, by the way. Mr. Healey has had to design and build himself at our garage at Holyrood. You cannot buy equipment on the market to operate on boglands.

It has got to be special design and this, of course. is also added to cost. AN RON. MEMBER: Are any of the 1300 acres in commercial production now, Mr. Chairauul? MR.. CALLAHAN: Yes, some are 1 Mr. Chairman. on the Burin Peninsula, I think at Collinet in crops 1 Eastport in crops in crops, 1 believe. and Green Bay •• MR. CBOSBIE: By private farmers •• MR.. CALLAHAN: Of course, there is hay production. MR. CBOSBlE: Not by the Government, but by private farmers. MR. CALLAHAN: Yes. Is there a crop production of St. George'.a7 AN HOR. MEMBER: Hay production. 6082

June 4th •• 1910 Page 3 Tape no 1117 MR. CALLAHAN: There is hay produ~tion. Last year the comaittee .ight remember we amended the £rowa Lands Act 1 to allow the leasing of . btgland areas, which had not, previously. been available. MR; COLLINS: Is there any practical experiment of work - practical experiments carried out in the feasibility of spruce or fir treea1 HR.. CALLAHAN : Oh, yes • This ·work is being done •• _!fR.. SMALLWOOD: On a fairly large acale - they had outstanding authority on that coming froa Scotland. several years running. I think. Who is that famous •• HR..

CALLAHAN: I am trying to remember the name. Ml. SMALLWOOD: Who is that famous - was that not brought up here under forestry the other day or was it in private conversation1 Who is - the;!~~~~~eriBent done iD planting trees on bogs1 _MR. CALLAHAN : He was a Scotc~ MR. SMALLWOOD: The Scotchman was broucht out here. Wu it iD the Soviet Union or where was it? MR. CALLAHAN: In Scandinavia, Sweden ••• HR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, but there is some outstanding, successful example of growing or planting the trees on boglands. HR. MURPHY: Have we gone· past it? HR. SMALLWOOD: No, we are still on boslands. are we not. HR.

COLLINS: Can the minister now give us an indication whether or not he expects a report on forestry? Can the minister give us an indication of when we might expect the report on forestry? MR. CALLAHAN: Well. we will get into forestry. I suppose, sometime next winter. Mr. Chairman • . but I would think within a matter of a couple of days. AN HON. MEMBER: We have done forestry •• _lilt. CALLAHAN: Have we? Ob, it has been ao long aso. I cannot remember. MR. HiaMAN: While the minister is still on boglands. some of the boglands, 6083

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1117 Page 4 Mr. Hickman. I understand, will be leased to cattle ranchers. MR.. CALLAHAN: Any farmer who. wants ••• MR.. RICKMAN: This might be as good a heading as any, would the minister give us a report of the Flying ''L" Ranch. What is happening there now? How many cattle do they h~ve? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, I do not know bow much I can say, in detail, to the committee. When the operation collapsed a couple of years ago, they, among other things, lost their leases, obviously, they were not operating, so their leases were cancelled.

As the bon. gentleman knows, because he was Minister of Justice at the time. Yes, I guess he was. The company, subsequently, re-organized and came back in again arid on the basis of the evidence presented, the fact that the owner or at least, I suppose, be 1• ·the major shareholder, Mr. Le~ Mr. Lee• -' decision that he would nov live here, rather than be an absentee manager and on the basis that they would start him in a smaller and more managable operation and various others factors and conditions, new leases were prepared and I think issued in a matter of some weeks ago. I think they have 200 or 300 head.

I am not sure, really, what the number is. It is a much smaller herd than they had started out with originally. I think they have certainly learned a lot through bitter experience and it looks now, as if the thing on a smaller but mere managable scale may have some chance of success. One thing we have not bad is any complaints from co~nities, as ve had before about cattle roaming •.round ••• !U\.1 IUottMA!h 1tt theft It ,,.,.,l8htl\ - the J't"'Oh\@111 lu•fo• ·• """ th•t th• 6084

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 1117 Page 5 Hr. BickliiBD. cattle, apart from the fact that the herd, some of them starved to death, as the herd waa unmanagable •• MR. CALLAHAN: There was no expert supervision. MR. HICKMAN: Right. No sup_ervision. MR. CALLAHAN: That was the problem. MR.. HICKMAN: Bas there been - in the new leases is there provision that the cattle have to be kept under f~nc:et .. ;They will be fenced in. MR. CALLAHAN: Mil. BIClCMAN: Mil. CALLAHAN: them in herds. They have to be under control at all times. And fenced. Yea that is what that means, unless'they are moving MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The trouble with the thing is not the question of fencing. The trouble is the difficulty and so far the impossibility of feeding them in the winter. MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: There are places all over the ' ~Island where you could graze, in the aggregate, 1 million bead of cattle; several million head of sheep for four mont~. probably five months a year. I do not think there is any part of Canada where there is such magnificent wild grazing on open, wild land. I mean Crown land.

Even the great cattle and sheep ranches of the foothills and also other parts of Alberta, are not in a class at all with our wild pasture on this Island. The cool climate and the dampness that we have brings this about. I had Herman Lynder the cha.pion cowboy of the world, of Canada and then eventually of the world vho liv.e in tha foothille, lives near Cardaton, in the foothills of Albarta, I •11itad hia and than ha cama down hare. I drove him around. 6085

Juae 4th., Tape no 1117 · Paae 6 Mr. Smallwood. Be was amazed at the amount of wild grass, wild white clovers and .other grasses and the amount of water. No animal is more than half a mile anywhere, I suppose, on this Island from water, a brook, river, pond, gully or lake, which in the Western provinces is astounding, the a.ount of water available for drinking without having to dig wells, without having to bore a well or without having to have windmills to bring the water up, watering holes, water places - none of that, just nature providing it and grass in staggering quantities all over the Province.

The funny thing about this Province is that graas even grows a.ong tbe trees and animals will disappear into the trees to avoid the flies or even to walk through the trees to have the trees scrape the flies off them. In among the trees, there is very tender green grass trowing. This is a well-known fact. I had·a man from Wyoming­ wyo.!ng , I suppose is the great sheep and cattle country of all of the United States of America, and he was terribly impressed also by the grazing.

There is no question about the grazing - the .tliions of acres of land we have growing wild grasses and wild grasses that are extremely nutritious. As I have said here so often, cattle come out of that grazing after four or five months, butterfat - butterfat. There is no question about it. You could raise 1 million head of cattle. You could raise several million head of sheep a year on this Island of Newfoundland for so many months a year.

Then when that grazing is over and peculiarly in Alberta, cattle can beat their way and sheep down through the snow and get at the frozen grass, especially, bunch grass, which grows in bunches and getting ita name from that fact that it is little plumps of bul&es of grass, and it is called bun'h grass. It is extremely nutritious and when it dies in the winter end H h httt~t\, ~iHi H h l!t•·~ f~t~t\~ H b ~ith•lll•h ""H H "'~"- "'"'~ 6086

June 4th., 1970 Tape no 111 7 Page 7 Mr. Saallwood. then,

whereas our grasses in Newfoundland, when they die in the Fall of the year, they die and there is no nutriment in them. There is probably .ore nutriment in sawdust than there is in our dead grass. When our dead grass turns grey, as it does in the Fall, it is of no value at all as a food for animals. Nov, if you raise a large number of sheep and cattle on our wild pasture lands of which we have so many millions of acres , what do you do, when the grazing is over? What do you do? How do you feed the11? Where do you get your winter keep'l Do you import hay?

Do you clear tens of thousands of acres of land to grow your winter keep? The cost of clearing land in Newfoundland and cultivating it, whether mineral land or bogland is exborbitant. It is impossible. It is uneconomic. It just does not pay you. You never can get your 110ney back - the 110ney that you invest in clearing land. It might support peasant farming but that is all it will support. It will not support economic,commercial farming. So, if you cannot clear land to grow your winter keep, •where do you get your viDI!r keep?

Where do you get it'l If you have 100 head of cattle, 200 or 300 or 800 bead of sheep, how do you feed them in the winter? Bow do you feed them when the wild natural free grazing co .. a to an end'l What do you do with them then? This is the only problem that is in the vay of the Flying ''L" Ranch on the Burin Peninsula. But this is the same problem that confronts every stock raiser we have on the Island. It is the same problem, whether in a all&ll way or a big way.

If you have a woman with seven or eight sheep, which you often do have in Newfoundland, a little garden not an awful lot bigger than this floor, will grow a biJ:. of grass, and they put it in brio baas or wrap up in a piece of brio and lua it in on their ahouldera and they cen 1•t a bit of 1rasa that vay and dry it and keep a 6087

.June 4th. 1 1970 Tape DO 1111 7 Pase 8 Mr. Smallwood few sheep, with a few potato peelings and household scraps and they will _get them through the winter somehow. I mean that is not co'llllllllzcial. You do not build a sheep industry on that kind of thing. The great problem is, how do you feed them in he winter. whether it be beef cattle, dairy cattle or sheep? Bow do you feed them in the winter? If it is hogs, poultry, you know how you do it 1 the feed ailla do it. You get your feed from the feed aills, but you cannot feed sheep and cattle on feed. If you did 1 you would go bankrupt.

Well there is the problem of the Plying "L" Ranch. How do you feed them iD the winter? Solve that and you have a cattle industry in Newfoundland. Solve that 1 and we can become the second largest sheep Province iD Canada. Ontario is the larsest 1 Alberta is next. We could exceed Alberta. We have what Alberta does not have. We have this masgificent wild grazing on open land, millions of acres of it that probably never will be cultivated, never will be brought under cultivation. and you scarcely need to bring it under cultivation. I have seen this experiment done. In fact I have participated in it.

I saw an area of ab~ut ·fifty acres of land in the winter, with two feet of snow on it 1 covered b~ck and forth by a limestone spreader, spreading limestone on it, and it melted with the snow and it went down on the ground and it did indeed' reduce the acidity of the soil on that fifty acres and it produced a beautiful growth of grass. But the growth vas not so much better than the fifty acres contiguous to it as to make it worthwhile going to the expense and the trouble of improving that fifty acres.

Now by this 1 I mean only to say that we have a natural growthiness in our soil for grass that is, perhaps, inco.perable in North A.erica. Coaker aaid that he woUld uke the gra .. grow on Water Street. 6088 l.

.Juoa 4th. • 1970_ 'rap.e ilO 11 i 7 Pase 9 Mr. S~~allwood. Be dfdnot nee" to do anythins about that • . tou jut do not walk alons Water Street, and you will have s~aaa there in a year. I know a Ull who cleared off the top soil. Be put a bulldozer to work, and he cleared it dow to the blue sravel to put a 1Rink rach there. 6089

June 4th, 1970 Tape 1118 JM- 1 MR. SMALWOOD: and he put them in grass there. As you go up and down between the rows of mink cages you do not want to be up to your ankles in muck so he had it down to the blue gravel and then he went out of the mink busines• and in a year that whole area was a field of grass. How does grass grow out of blue gravel? Well, it does. That might be the subject for an interesting study, scientific study,but the notorious fact is that Newfoundland is a fantastic place to grow grass. I can tell you an even more fantastic place and that is Labrador.

In Labrador they have a season so short that it is unbelievable, unbelievably short and yet I have seen grass there up to my chin in Labrador. It grew and disappeared again in about eight, nine or ten weeks. It is a terribly and unbelievable short season but they grow beautiful stuff in that short season. Our season is longer on this Island and we grow tremendous grass, it is tremendous. To solve the problem of feeding them in the winter I had studies made of getting self-propelled barges that would bring down the grass from Cape.

Breton -~~~:nd:· Pri~ce · E~~:iS,.·arid. - ~d - New Brunswick where you have thousands, tens of thousands of acres of abandoned grass lands, still under fence, still with the old unp