Manitoba Hansard — 13 May 1994 (Sitting 27, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sessi on - 'Ibirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authoriJy of The Honolll'tlbk Denis C. Rocan Spealur Vol. XLDI No. 27 • 10 a.m., Friday, May 13, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERn..U, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR. Gregocy DOER,Gacy DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS,H arry,Hon. ERNST, TlDl, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gacy, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRJESEN,Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, ConstHuencles and PoUtical Afll Uation CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin -Russell Selkirk Concordia AI1bur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HEL WER. Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gacy LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATIRJN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,TlDl MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Norma MceltAJB,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK. Darren, Hon. REID,Dacyl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemacy, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Burrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirk:field Parle FlinFlon La Verendcye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

1642 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 13, 1994 The House met at 10 Lm. PRAYERS RO�NE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMI'ITEES Committee of Sup ply Mrs. Louise Da cquay (C hairperson of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Emergency Preparedness Week Hon.

Geral d Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministe rial statement. Mr. Speaker, as Minister responsible for the administration of The Emergency Me asures Act, it is my pleasure to advise the House that at two o' clock today I will proclaim the forthcoming week, May 15 to May 21, as Emergency Preparedness We ek in the province of Manitoba.

The establishment of an annu al Emergency Preparedness Week has been ide ntified as a most cost-eff ective means of creating public awareness respecting improve ments to protection of life , property and envir onmen t which can be achieved through effective emergency pl anni ng. Emergency Prepare dness We ek will be held ann ually during the third week in May, which coincides with the anniversary of the cresting of the Red River in Win nipeg, May 17 through May 19, at 30.3 feet above flood level during the great flood of 1950. Mr.

Speaker, in keeping with the United Nations declaration of '94 as the International Year of the Family, the theme for Emergency Preparedness Week '94 is Family Emergency Prepared ness. Booklets and brochures have been published in both official langua ges to provide guidance in family emergency planning. Copies of these · publications have been distributed to all members of the House and are being made available to the general public through the Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization. •

(1005) Further, with the assistance of Manitoba Education, the Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization has developed an emergency preparedness activity for students in Grades 4, 5 and 6. This activity, called the School Report Card, will be implemented in man y Manitoba schools during Emergency Preparedness Week. Program materials are also being developed for the same in September to provide challenging emergency planning activity for students in Grades 7, 8 and 9.

The program will involve students in the preparation of an emergency plan for the home or school and will enhance research, analytical, writing and graphic skills of participating students . Mr. Speaker, in November of '80, the mandate of the Manitoba Emergency Measures was changed from civil defence to natural- and human-caused emergencies. Since that date , through various administrations and with the co-operation and support of me mbers of this House, Manitoba has bec ome a le ader in emergency prepare dn ess in Canada.

With our continued supp ort Manitoba will remain a leader in emergency preparedne ss into the 21s t Century. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

1643 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, just a few words on the statement dealing with Emergency Preparedness Week. We wish the governm ent well on their wolk in this area. Obviously, it is an important government role, to provide for the provincial government to work with the fe deral government and defence forces and other civic forces to have an approp riate response to emergen cies. Manitoba has had successes and we have had failures in dealing with emergenc ies.

We had tremendous success in the most recent set of major forest fires in Manitoba in terms of dealing with the safety of citizens and the evacuation of people, but there was some controversy about how commun ities were treated and how all communities worked, particularly in northern communities, on preventing the emergency from spreading further, in this case a fore st fire. 1bere was a fee ling in many communities that we could have prevented the expansion of this emergency; we could have prevented the evacu ation and therefore had a greater emergency response team through prevention as well as response after the emergency took place. 1bere is still concern, Mr.

Speaker, about how we utilize the tloodway in flooding situations in the city of Winnipeg, most recently with the unusually high amounts of rainfall that took place over the summ er and the considerable amount of flooding that took place in many basements in Winnipe g. Hand in hand with emergency response is the whole issue of disaster assistance. We think, of course , that many citizens had tremendous backlogs in terms of dealing with the disaster that took place in their homes in the last emergency in this provi nce. We wish the government well.

We think it is an all-party issue to respond to our emergencies but to prevent our emergencies from taking place where we have that ability, Mr. Speaker, particularly in the area of forest fires and those kinds of issues. We believe also that we should have an appropriate disaster assistance pr ogram. Thank you vecy much. Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (River Heights): Mr. Spe aker, we join with the government and the opposition in proclaiming this particular week Emergency Preparation and Preparedness Week.

I am particularly pleased with the emp hasis that has been pl aced on the home and school emergency planning activities. Having taught in schools, and I know there are a number of others in this room who have done the same, it is very difficult sometimes to make young people understand within the school environment that an emergency means they must act and they must act quickly. 1be Fire Department has often done a wonderful job in trying to bring that home to them, but there simply is not that sense of awarene ss.

That was brought home, I think, in spades last evening on the news when we watched the number of young people who have now suffered what appe ars to be permanent eye damage because they watched the eclipse without any protection whatsoever. Children think they are going to live forever. That is why I take particular note of the decision by the government to emphasize some emergency preparation experiences for young people so that perllaps their sense of their own longevity will be brought home to them.

But if they are not prepared for emergency, then they can in fact suffer the consequence of not having been prepared for that. So a preparation of a young person to know how to access a school or a home is a positive thing and for that I congratulate the government. •

(1010) Addictions Foundation of Manitoba Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I am tabling today Supp lementary Inform ation for Legisla tive Review for 1994-95 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba. Department of Urban Aff airs Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban · Aff airs): I am pleased to table Supplementary In form ation for Legisla tive Review for the

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1644 1994- 95 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Urban Affairs. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this morning from the Charleswood Junior High School one hundred and twenty Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Barbara Fitzjohn. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD The WinDipeg Jets Operating Losses Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Mini ster.

Pursuant to the agree ment signed by the Premier in November of 1991 in which he recommended to his cabinet and had subsequently appro ved his cabinet dealing with the Jets hockey team and the operating losses, we have asked the Premier on at least two occasions in the last two weeks what would be the pro jected losses to the hockey team and there fore the pro jected liability for the Province of Manitoba as a 50 pe�eent participant in the operating losses of the team along with the City of Winnipe g.

It was reported of course to all of us yesterday that the pro jections the city has is for between $7 million and $8 million for this current year, for some $1 4 million for the next hockey season which is in this current fi sca l yea r of the government 's budget and for some $20 million the year after that. I would like to ask the Premier, does he now have his own numbers and own figure s for the operating losses of the team, and can he share those num bers with the memb ers of this Legislature? Bon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I do not, as the city does not 'Ibe city, as I read and understood-the figure that was quoted is based on no increase in revenues for the Jets, and I think those of us who are season ticket holders know that the Jets have already put through an increase in the cos tofthe tickets for next year. Se condaril y, there is much discussion about additional revenues from an ABC contract and perhaps pay-per-view and other things that may click in for next year. In addition to that, on the cost side, it is based on a worst-case scenario anticipating some massi ve increases in the costs of signing various players.

At this point, one can only say that it is a speculative figure and not the basis on which one would do their actual planning for the pmposes of taxation and/or budgeting, Mr. Speaker. I could not do anything other than indicate that this is the speculative position that the City of Wmnipeg has taken as a worst-case scenario, and we are waiting for actual figures from the hockey club before we commit anything to paper. •

(1015) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier indicated in his Estimates that they had taken numbers through Treasury Bo ard to cabinet prior to cabinet approving the operating losses of the hockey team. Our phones are ringing off the hook. I am sure members opposite are having the same phenome na with the pro jected operating losses of the hockey team. Yet, six weeks to the so-called deadline, we still do not know what the status is going to be of the team, the arena, the ownership of the team which the Premier has talked about.

Can the Premier indicate to us what is the best-case scenario for the losses of the team over the next two yea rs ? How will this best-case scenario fit with the option of the government that they have stated that they may look at purchasing the team which would cost $16 million, and then, of course, on top of that, there would be this best-case scenario of the operating losses of the team? Can the Premier indicate what our liability is on this matter in terms of the Legis lature? Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, our liability is to accept one-half of the losses of the Jets subject to approved budgets for the remainder of the agreement, which covers potentially an additional

1645 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 two years. If, of course, the team, in passing the June 30 deadline, is able to be sold and transferred out of Wmnipe g, then there would be no further responsibility for losses.

I think that most Manitobans would prefer us to continue to work towards a long-term solution that would see the continued operation of the Jets hockey club with minimal investment on the part of governments or the taxpayers, and we have continued to talk in terms of only looking at some small investments in the establishment of a facility in Winnipeg that would be a facility utilized by the public for many pwposes, including the Wmnipeg Jets. That continues to be the situation.

We do have, because of the agreement though, an option to be able to either purchase on a short-term basis for transference to other private ownership or nominate other private owners to purchase the Jets at a fixed price that is in the agreement, and that might be a vehicle by which we can transfer ownership into other hands that are willing to invest considerable money.

But all of that takes considerable time, and even with the best work of people who are very active in the financial community, who are involved with the Bums committee, it is difficult to put together a package that may involve hundreds of millions of dollars ultimately. They are wor king ste adfastly on that.

We continue to support their work as the best effort to try and transfer that club or strengthen that club with additional private investment and keep it in Winnipeg, but in the final analysis, if it is not possible to do so because private sector money is not available, we have no interest in the long-term operation of a hockey club with taxpayers' money. I have said that all the time, and I repeat that comment. It would only be utilizing the option and utilizing our power under the option to effect a transfer that would get us involved, and it would only be on a short-term basis. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, we agree with the government in the sense that we want to have a hockey team with minimal investment from the public, but it does not sound to the public that we are having a minimal investment when we have numbers like $14 million for next year, $6 million to $7 million for this year, $20 million two years from now. We do not have a guarantee that the hockey team will stay here. We do not have an asset in terms of a new arena. We have six weeks to go before the Bums report is allegedly going to be prepared for us, which is almost six or seven weeks past the due date that was set by the government.

We had an agreement in November of 199 1 that had all the same objectives that the Premier just mentioned in this House in the same agreement that he took to cabinet So the question becomes, when does this government expect the Bums report and will the taxpayers get any relief in terms of the recomm endations the Bums committee will make? Will they get any relief from covering the operating losses of a hockey team which do not give us a hockey team for the long term, do not give us an asset and only just give us losses and liabilities from this Legislature? •

(1020) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I would corr ect a number of statements the member is making. Firstly, as long as they continue to operate in Winnipeg, the Winnipeg Jets, according to third-party evaluation done by different chartered accounting and consulting finns-these repeatedly indicate that the Jets are responsible for approxim ately 1,400 jobs, an economic benefit in the range of $50 million annually and direct taxation to three levels of government annually of $1 4 million.

So it is not that there is nothing coming, that we are getting nothing out of having the team remain here, even during this period of time in which we are responsible for one-half of the losses. That is the benefit, in addition to whatever other benefits people see, from the operation of a pr ofessional hockey club here in Manitoba. In terms of having said that nothing bas changed, that is true. That agreement was signed in 1991 as a short-term measure of maintaining the Jets here until a decision could be made.

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1646 We are now getting to the crunch point of having to make a decision, and we will have to collectively as a commun ity. Not just this provincial government, but the City of Winnipeg, Province of Manitoba and all its citizens will have to decide whether or not whatever is the best proposal that comes forward is worthy of our support and consideration.

If it is not, because if it does involve too much involvement by the public sector in suppo rting the continuance of that franchise here, then we will all have to say we cannot afford to keep them here , and we are not willing to put in any additional money to maintain them here .

At the moment, they are maintained here for the pwposes of giving us the opportunity to make a long-tenn decision, and they do contribute, as I said, $50 million to the economy, 1,400 jobs and $14 million of direct taxation revenue for every year that they stay here, so that is the other side of the coin while we are awaiting the final decision that we have to make colle ctively. Winnipeg Police Services Police Informants Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice as the chief law enf orcement officer for the prov ince.

Judge Newcombe has prepared an 84-page document on the use of police infonnants by the City of Winnipeg police department, in which he was very critical of the role, the actions, of senior officers in the dep artment. My question to the minister is, has she received and reviewed the Newcombe report, and has she discussed its contents with the City of Wmnipeg police department to ensure that the incident which led to Manitoba's, I think, lengthiest and probably costliest trial will not happen again, so we can get on with a new era of policing in Winnipe g? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Spea ker, as the member knows, in fact the jury just announced its verdict yesterday, so my department and I will now be reviewing exactly what has come forward from this particular case that has been before the courts, and then we will take action following that. Mr.

Mackintosh: My supplementary question is, has the minister received and reviewed the City of Winnipeg police department 's 1992 policy and procedures on how officers are to deal with infonnants, and is she satisfied that infonnants will not be able to rip off the taxpayers of Manitoba again, so that we can deal eff ectively with the role between informants and off icers in the departme nt? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, the member is speaking about some of the process of a case which ruis just had its verdict announced by the jury yesterday, and we have to have a look at exactly what was delivered within that verdict and, also, then have a look at what may flow and what may follow from the results of this case . Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I remind the minister that the new policy and procedures were put in place in 1992. My final supplement ary, Mr.

Speaker: As the minister responsible for justice across Manitoba, will she ensure that there are policies and procedures in place in other police forces outside of Winnipeg so that we can learn from the mistakes that occurred within Winnipe g? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Spea ker, it is always my intention to make sure that the policing across Manitoba and the investigations are of benefit to Manitobans. I continually work with police officers across this province , and meet on a regular basis with senior officers to ensure that policing issues are being dealt with in the most effective way.

We will continue to do that also. • (10 25) The Winnipeg Jets Operating Losses Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Eleven days ago in the Executive Council Estimates, the Premier indicated that once the expansion payments ceased-this is with respect to the Wmnip eg Jets-the team would likely be in

1647 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1994 a loss situation. He was speaking about the disc u ssions around the time he signed the agreement with Mr. Norrie and the ma jority owners. He goes on to indicate: '"'be magnitude, I do not think we ever had any absolute assurance on, but certainly we recognized that there would be losses after a certain period of time." My question. Mr.

Speaker: When this matter went to Treasmy Board, given those comments, there must have been some mnge of possible losses that the government considered, worst case and best case, and there must have been some mnge as to what those losses could be. Surely the government would not have signed that agree ment without having some information on that. We have now received the City of Wmnipeg's estimates. The First Minister may disagree with those. Can he share with us what those estimates are, were, what his best estimates are today, Mr.

Speaker, so that the taxpayers can know what the potential for losses, which will be paid for by this government, are? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I think it is safe to say, Mr. Speaker, that the experience that we have had up to date, and I guess this is the fourth year of the agreement, I believe, that we are currently in-1991 -we are into the '94-in any case, we have had three years of experience. The losses and the costs within that period of time have been within the mnge that we projected at that time. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister also went on to say: "As well as cabinet approval, the projections were all based on best available information with respect to the projections of increases in salaries." So there were proje ctions. Can th e First Minister tell us what those projections are for future years? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, we have information available-I do not have it at my disposal at the moment-but we would prefer to deal with the actual budget, because the budget pr ocess-the club is limited to being at the top of the lower third of teams in the league in projecting its costs this coming year.

So that means that out of 24 teams, they could spend no more than the eighth lowest team in the league. That is a process that will be overseen by the interim steering committee, and in that process, they will obviously be taking into account actual expectations of salary renewals and agreements. I would much rather deal with actual figures as opposed to putting out for public debate any assumed figures, on the worst-case scenario, on speculative numbers. I do not think that is a responsible way for us to deal with serious decisions by fueling speculation. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, obviously I have called them, the First Minister has called them, proj ections. That is what they are. But the people · of this province, I think, want and deserve to see what those projections are. I have a final question for the First Minister. There is specul ation amongst a number of counc illors at City Hall that the $5-million entmnce fee originally paid by the Wmnipeg Jets hockey team to enter the Nln..r-they have only been paying interest on it thus far, and now they are starting to pay off the principal as part of their operations, which of course ends up being paid for by the taxpayer.

Does the First Minister have any knowledge of that particular allegation which has been coming out of City Hall this morning? Is the Ftrst Minister aware of whether or not that is accurate, and can he comment on those allegations that are being made? Mr. Filmon: I have no information on that speculation and will be happy to look into it on behalf of the Liberal Leader. •

(1030) Social Assistance Single Parent Families Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the provincial government has had the single parent family report since November of 1990. It is an excellent report. It con t ains 30 recommendations in four categories. Of those, 12 would have a beneficial effect on the income of single parents living in poverty, 60 percent of whose families are headed by women living under the poverty line.

May 13, 1994 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1648 Can the Minister of Family Services tell single parents living in po Verty, headed by female beads of households in Manitoba, bow many of those 30 recommendations her gove rnment has implemented? Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of FamDy Services): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to answer that question for my honourable friend and indicate to him that we have had consultations throughout the width and the breadth of this province dealing with the issue of sole-support parents and our ability to move them off the welf are rolls into productive or meaningful training or job opportunities. I want to say that the meetings have been very positive.

We have brought together the private sector, the service providers and members of the volunteer community who have indicated that they want to take a more active role in providing support to some of the most vulnerable and needy Manitobans in our community. I am very pleased with the consultation process that has just taken place and has ended, and we will be moving very quickly along with the federal government into specific pilot projects that will indeed provide additional supports and building of self-esteem for those young women in our community. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Speaker, single parents living in poverty in Manitoba give this minister an F for implementing only two- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Burrows, with your question, sir. Mr. Martindale: Can the Minister of Family Ser vices tell us how many jobs will be created as the result of the single-par ent project, her sole-parent project in co-operation with the federal government? How many individuals will be moved from social assistanc e into paid employment? Mrs.

Mitchelson: We are worldng very actively with the federal minister and with a worldng group at the federal level to put forward our plan and our proposal for pilot projects in the province of Manitoba. Those discussions are ongoing, and we have been worldng very diligently both at the federal and the prov incial level. I have high ex pectations that the federal government will be extremely supportive of the proposals that Manitoba puts forward. Mr. Martindale: The minister fails to answer the question.

How many individuals will be moved from social assistance into paid employment as a result of this program, the main features of which are a seamless service accessed through a single wicket and a single application assess ment process? There are no goals reg arding jobs, but there should be. Will the minister tell the House how many individuals are going to be moved from social assistance into paid employment as a result of substantial amounts of money spent on this store-front program? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, I know not what the member opposite is reading, because the proposal bas not been put foiWard yet So if he bas a paper or a document--there bas been no proposal put forward to the federal government. We are in the process of doing that right now. We are looking foiWard to strategic initiatives money from the federal government That might be his policy, but there bas been no proposal put foiWard yet to the federal government. Legionnaires' Disease Department of Labour Involvement Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, two cases of legionna ires' disease have been confirmed at King Edward School in Winnipeg. This illness is ca used by bacteria and high moisture, humidity in poorly ventilated indoor air quality. I want to ask the Minister of Labour if his department was contacted about these cases. Is there a record of the calls with the Department of Labour, and what was the result of the Manitoba Workplace Safety and Health Branch investigation of the source of this virus? Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I will take this question as notice, and

1649 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1994 when I have the information, I will bring it back to the member and to the House. Indoor Air Quality Testing Program Ms. Marianne CeriDi (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, since this incident and the illness is preventable by testing indoor air quality, can the minister confirm that he has eliminated the indoor air quality testing program from his department, and can he explain any rationale for this very unsafe move? Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speak er, The Wodtplace Safety and Health Act very clearly indicates that the owners or operators of a workplace have a responsibilit y to e nsure that the workplace is safe, including the air quality. So the responsibility is certainly there, and it is the responsibility of the Department of Labour to e nsure that where there are complaints, they are met, that proper information is provided to owners and operators of wodtplaces to e nsure that they comply with the regulations in the law. Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Speaker, since yesterday was the day to recogni ze ME and chronic fatigue syndrome, two other illnesses exacerbated by sick building syndrome and poor air quality, and I know that schools and other workplaces are calling the department to ask for inspections on indoor air quality, can the minister explain to the House what he and his department are doing with these requests that come forward for inspections? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, with respec t to specific requests, I will ascertain what specific steps our staff are undertaking.

I would point out to the honourable member for Radisson that it was this administration some years ago when the Department of Education provided a certain fund, made certain dollars available for the improvement of air qualities in schools, and steps were taken to e nsure that where we had problems, dollars, resources were provided to correct them. I am awar e of a number of schools that took advantage of this program. So this is an area this government has been concerned with, and it continues to wodt on this particular issue. Health Care System Reform Status Report Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, tomorrow, the 14th of May, madts the second annivers ary of the gove rnment's document, Quality Health for Manitobans: The Action Plan. In his remadts during the unveiling of the pl an, the former Minister of Health outlined what he said would be his government's vision for the reform of the health care system in Manitoba. The minister also indicated that the plan would take two years to implement and to complete. The two years is now up tomorrow.

My question for the curre nt Minister of Health is, how does he explain to the people of Manitoba that most of the goals and achievements outlined in this plan have not come to fruition? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am glad the honourable member for Crescentwood calls our attention to the quality Action Plan with respect to our health system in Manitoba. The plan is well along.

I think it is very noteworthy that here in Manitoba we have chosen a phased approach, as opposed to the approach being used in other provinces in Canada where they have lopped off whole arms and whole legs of their health care system. We have not had to do that We have taken the time to consult with over 13, 000 Manitobans.

If the honourable member would prefer that we use the system us ed by New De mocratic administrations or Liberal administrations in eastern Canada, closing hospi tals, closing massive numbers of hospital beds, throwing thousands of health care wodters out of the wodtforce, well, I reject that approach. The honourable member, I believe, would reject that approach, too. Home Care Services Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a sup plementary for the minister.

The former Minister of Health clearly indicated there would be a shift from institutional services to community care services and that we would see an increase in support and home care services to help avoid people being institutionalized.

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1650 Can the Minister of Health tell us why we have not seen any expanSion in home care services and, in fact, we have seen a reduction-home care services. Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Just to remind the honourable member that we have opted not to use the approach, for exam ple , used in places like Nova Scotia, which has a Liberal government, where they have ann ounced today the closure of three hospitals and 29 further hospitals downsized- An Honourable Member: The Premier was here to speak to their annual meeting in Brandon. Mr.

McCrae: Oh, I understand the Premier of Nova Scotia was a keynote speaker at the Liberal annual general meeting here in Manitoba. Pemaps that is the app roach our colle agues in the Liberal Party are advocating. It certainly is the approach being advocated by honourable members of the New Democratic Party, and it is not the appr oach we will use here. •

(1040) Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, we know that Nova Scotia has the highest per capita bed population, and- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I will remind the honourable member this is not a time for debate . Now, the honourable member for Crescentwood, with her question. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister of Health explain to this House why there has been a reduction in home care services, as opposed to an expansion, because that is what the people who receive home care want to hear about. They do not want to hear about Nova Scotia. They want to know what is happening to their services in Manitoba. Mr.

McCrae: A member has def ended the closure of three hospitals in Nova Scotia and the downsizing of 29 more on the basis that they had a high bed rate, and I say to the honourable member, tell that to the patients in those hospitals and tell that to the workers who have to be laid off in Nova Scotia. Mr. Speaker, over the last six years in Manitoba, home care expenditure has grown in Manitoba by 93 percent. This year alone, we are adding $2.6 million to the Home Care budget. We are adding $4.5 mill ion to the community mental health care budget.

We are building more and more Support Services to Seniors organizations right across Manitoba, including in NDP ridings , includ ing the riding of Transcona where the member there does not even know he has one. Health Care System Funding Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, it is too bad the new minister has fallen into the same trap the old minister fe ll into of accusing the opposition of creating all of the chaos in the health care system , when it is their own failure of their own policies to put in place communit y-based services that has caused the diffi culty.

My question to the minister is, since it is not only the seco nd-yea r annivers ary of the government's failed health refonn plan, it is also the year anniversary of Connie Curran, will the minister advise this House where the additional $100 million that they have now said will come out of the health care system, out of the hospital budgets-where out of each hospital budget is that money coming? What are the community services to be put in place to replace that $100 million that is coming out of the hospita ls? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Spe aker, speaking of Connie Curran, do the honourable member and his colleagues know who is now the chief executive officer of the Canadian branch of the Connie Curran company? Well, it is the person who sat around the table with the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohm an), the member for F1in Flon (Mr. Storie), the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), and I do not know who all else over there as they ran the government here in Manitoba.

He is the person who presided over the closure of over 5,000 beds in the province of Ontario and then went on to his reward with Connie Curran,

1651 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1994 Mr. Speaker . That is the kind of example honourable members opposite want to set in this House as they talk about health care refonn. No, Mr. Speaker, we will not accept the policies of the New Democrats, which is to cut great gobs out of our health care system and throw hundreds and perhap s thousands of people out of work. We will not do that. Mr. Chomiak: Perhaps the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will answer the question, because obviously the Minister of Health is unable to.

My su pplement ary question is, can the government explain why they have continued the user fees for home care equipment, why they have cut services in home care and why they are not revealing where the $10 0 million in cuts to hospitals is coming from? Mr. McCrae: Since the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) raised the question several weeks ago-they keep flogging this dead horse using a figure, a mysterious figure which is speculative at worst and mischievous at best.

Honou rable member s opposite use speculative figures rather than real ones when they are talking about the future of health care in Manitoba. But I do say, we are using a phased app roach to the refonn of our system. We are shifting from acute care to the community in a phased and organized way. We are providing high quality services to Manitobans so that we can have outcomes. We are not measuring the value of our system by the number of dollars that go into it or the number of beds that are in it or the number of people, but by outcomes.

We will continue to use that approach in the provis ion of a sustainable hea lth care system for generations to come. Mr. Chomiak: This government's health refonn plan bas been totally phased out. My final suwlementary to the minister: Can the minister explain the comments of the bead of MHO, who said that somehow there are some things on pause. The pause to layoffs and the pause in some of the $100-m illion cuts are sitting on the desk of the minister. Can be explain what the status is of that so-called pause? Mr.

McCrae: On the one hand, we are told we are not moving fast enough, and now I guess we have bad a ma jor con version on the pa rt of the honourable member for Kildonan because be sees the error of his colleagues' ways to the east of us and to the west of us. Now he wants to know bow the pause is wodcing. I should tell the honourable member that I felt it was appropriate to have a good hard look at what we were doing in health care refonn in Manitoba. I have been doing that, and I am going to continue with health refonn, health renewal, in a phased way.

We are not going to go and close whole hospitals like they are doing in Nova Scotia or like they are doing in Saskatchewan or like they are doing in British Columbia and thousands and thousands of hospital beds and people thrown out of work in Ontario. We are not going to do it that way, Mr. Speaker. Chief Medical Examiner Investigation/Review Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Justice.

Several days ago, I raised the question about admissions made by the Chief Medical Examiner, putting in doubt whether suspicious deaths of Manitobans were in fact even reviewed by the Chief Medical Examiner in 1990 and 1991 to see if inquests should be held. My question is to the minister. What inquiry has the minister ordered into this matter? Bon.

Rosema ry Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I have asked my department to begin looking at exactly what has ha ppened, to spea k with the Chief Medical Examiner and, in addition, to speak with others in the department to look at exactly what bas occurred, under what authority that occurred, and to make sure that we have a full explanation.

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1652 Following that full explanation, I will then make a de�tioa · Mr. Mackintosh: A review by the minist er's department is unacceptable to Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, a review by her department of her department My question is, will the minister now order a fair independent inquiry into this serious matter? Mrs. V odrey: Mr. Speaker, again, I will first of all gather the facts. Following having the facts being gathered, I will then make a determina tion of any further action required. Mr.

Mackintosh: My final supp lementary is, can the minister assure this House that the presi gning of reports by the Chief Medical Examiner bas not continued since 19917 Will she fo llow the proper course of action when there are fundamental questions about the conduct of her department and order an independent fair inquiry? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I have explained to the member exactly what I will be doing. These allegations and issues arose during something unrelated to an examination in the department.

I have now dete rmined that my department will in vestigate what came up during the course of another hear ing, that we will get the full background and then make a detennination with all of the facts before us. At the moment, Mr. Speaker, we do not have all of the facts. Foster Care Long- Term Placeme nts Ms. Norma McCormick (Osb orne): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services. Two weeks ago, our caucus learned from an April 1994 policy dire ctive that the foster care rates for extended family care were to be cut to $10 a day, and we raised our con cer ns for the aboriginal communi ty.

These rate reductions will also apply to fos ter care rates for children in permanent home placement My question to the Minister of Family Services is, does she not see a problem with a funding policy which discourages the placement of children with extended families and which works against permanency pl anning for foster children, when we know that a stable long-t erm care arrangement provides these children with their best hope for growing up into healthy , well-adjusted adults? •

(1050) Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does allow me again to put on the record the increased supp ort of over $6 mill ion that we have in the child welfare system this year, in this year's budget. I look forward to getting into the detail with her of what those major in creases will hopefully accomplish, with a new vision for child welfare in Manitoba that looks at family su pport, family preservation and family responsibility. Mr.

Speaker, I believe the dollars that are within the system will be redirected and reused so that children do not have to necess arily be brought into care in the future to receive the supp orts they nee d, to try to keep the family unit together. I am thoroughly convinced that working along with Winnipe g Child and Family Services, we have a new vision for a new way of doing business in our child welfare system . Fee Schedule-N egotiations Ms. Norma McCor mick (Osb orne): Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary : In advising foster parents of the reduction of the rate to $10 per day, department officials are telling foster parents that the rate is to be i:legotiated and will be subject to contractual agreement. My question to the minister: If foster parents are willing to accept the reduced rate for a child in keeping with this present policy, will the minister guarantee foster parents that if there is change in the child's or the family 's circumstances, that the $10 rate can be negotiated back up to a reasonable rate?

1653 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1994 Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speak er, what I indicated in the past and I will iterate again today is that indeed we believe that $320 a month tax free for the basic needs for children-and that is shelter and clothing-is an adequate amount. Mr. Sp eaker, the money will still be in the system, and more money will be in the system so that we can put addition al supports around children. Should the need arise, we can put additional supports around that foster family unit.

We can put additional resources around the natural family unit so that we can keep children in their homes and try to provide the best service possible in the best interests of the children. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOL�CALSTATEMENTS Ducks Unlimited Waterf owl Celebration Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Gimli have leave to make a no npoli tical statement? [agreed] Mr. Helwer: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to share with the members of this House some in formation regarding the Second Annual-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: What is the problem? Older, please. It is the honourable member for Gimli who has asked for leave to make a nonpolitical statement, . and it is only the honourable member for Gimli. Mr. Helwer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I said, I wish to share with the members of this House some information regarding the Second Ann ual Ducks Unlimited International Waterfowl Celebration.

This special celebration will be held this Satulday, May 14, and Sunday, May 15, at Oak Hammock Marsh and at the towns of Sel.kirk and Stonewall. At Oak Hammock Marsh, the event takes place at the Conservation Centre and surrounding area where the program on each day includes more than 25 activities. For example, there are a wide range of different conservation exhibits.

There are wildlife art and wildlife photo graph displays, carving displays, a decoy carving show, wildlife calling demonstrations and a competition, retriever demonstrations, a fly fishing display, a wildlife film festival, an exhibit of butterflies and moths from around the world and a natural history book exhibit. The var iety of special events for youngste rs include ecological games, nest box building, as well as waterfowl si lhouette colouring and face pa inting. The pro gram starts at 9 a.m. and concludes at 5 p.m.

The marsh life posters submitted by youngsters from all over Manitoba will be displayed at Stonewa ll Quarry Park and at the Agriculture building in Selkirk Park, as well as the Oak Hammock Marsh Conservation Centre. The winning poster will be used to promote the 1995 Waterfowl Celebration. Additionally, there are breakfasts and tours at the Marine Museum in Sel.kirk and at the Quarry Parlt in Stonewall. All proceeds from this Waterfowl Celebration support the Oak Hammock Marsh Intetpret ive Centre. Mr.

Speaker, I would encourage all members of this House and all Manitobans to come and participate in this vecy special celebration this coming Satulday and Sunday. Thank you. The Winnipeg General Strike Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Burrows have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Doug Martindale (Bur rows ): Mr. Speaker, May 15 is an important anni versary in the history of workers, organized labour and Canada. In April 1919, the building and metal trade unions in Winnipeg presented wage demands to their employers.

The metal workers asked for wage parity with their brothers in the rail shops. The metal shop owners rejected their propos als and refus ed to meet with union representatives. The builders admitted that the workers' wage demands were fair and the construction workers were undetpaid but also refused to meet with union representatives. As a result, building trade workers

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1654 went on sttike on May 1, and the metal worlcers fo llowed on May 2. · The Wmnipeg Trades and Labour Council then conducted referendums with its member unions on a general sttike. At seven o' clock in the morning of May 15, 1919, Winni peg's fe male night shift telephone operators punched off duty. Unlike every other day of the year, there were no day shift workers to replace them. The Wmnipeg General Strike had begun. Twelve thousand union members were joined by another 15, 000 others who joined in the sympathetic general strike.

The main issues in the sttike were the right to bargain collective ly, reasonable living wages and decent working conditions . Since 1919, there have been great improvements in wages, and laws have been enacted governing minimum wages, the health and saf ety of workplace s, and collective bargaining has been recognized as a right Today, we pay tribute to the courage and tenacity of the workers and union leaders who, in May 1919, took collective action to fight for the rights of all workers. While they were not immediately successful, we, their successors, were, and we owe them a debt of gratitude.

Bouse Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable government House leader, what are your inten tions, sir? Bon. Jim Ernst (Government Bouse Leader): Bef ore we get into Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I do have a fe w items of House business which I would like to confirm. Firstly, the Committee on Public Accounts will meet Monday, May 16, at 10 a.m., to continue their deliberations of the 1993 Auditor's Report and Public Accounts . On Tuesday , May 17, the Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet at 10 a.m. to consider the 1993 Report of the Manitoba Telephone System.

On Thurs day, May 19, the Public Utilities and Natural Resources committee will meet at 10 a.m. to consider the 1993 Report of the Manit oba Hazaldous Waste Management Corporation. On Tuesday, May 24, the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee will meet at 10 a.m. to consider the 1993 report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. On Thursday, May 26, the Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet at 10 a.m. to consider the 1993 repo rt of the Commun ities Economic Development Fund.

On Tuesday, May 31, the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet at 10 a.m. to consider the 1993 report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commissi on. On Friday, June 3, there has been agreement amongst House leaders that we will consider condolences on that day. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable government House leader for that inf ormation. ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government Bouse Leader): Mr.

Speaker, with respect to Orders of the Day, would you call for second readings of Bills 4, 5 and 9, and fo llowing that, the bills as listed under Second Readings on the Order Paper, Bills 2, 3, 7, 8 and 10. SECOND READINGS Bi11 4-The Energy and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Down e y), that Bill 4, The Energy and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur I 'e nergie et apportant des modifications correlatives, be read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House . Motion presented. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce this bill which will replace outdated legislation and provide for the introdu ction of

1655 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1994 regu lations governing minimum energy-efficiency standards or codes. Bill 4 outlines the role and functions of the Energy ministry and provides the authority for canying out the re sponsibilities assigned to the department and to the minister . Once enacted, Bill 4 will clarify and reduce energy-related legislation by repealing The Manitoba Energy Council Act and The Manitob a Energy Auth orit y Act. Amendments will also be made to The Manitoba Hydro Act. The Manitoba Energy Author ity Act was introduced in the late 1970s when no Energy ministry existed.

With the establishment of the Department of Ene rgy and Mines in 1979, the majority of the authority's responsibility related to energy planning and policy development were provided through the department. The authority was prim arily used as a vehicle to negotiate extraprovincial power sales and to encourag e the development of energy-intensive industry . The authority was discontinued in 1992. With the passage of this bill, the legislated role of the authority to negotiate and approve transactions for exporting or importing electricity will be left with Manitoba Hydro.

This will be accompli shed by the consequential amendments.

Section 12 of the bill repeals the

section of The Manitoba Hydro Act which requires the appr oval of the Manitoba Ener gy Au thority for all extraprovincial power negotiations. Approval for future extraprovincial transactions will be by Lieutenant-Governor-in Council. Mr. Speake r, this was the situation before 1980. In addition, developing and co-ordinating contingency plans to deal with possible energy shortages will be the responsibility of the Energy department.

Promoting and encouraging energy-intensive industry in Manitoba will be undertaken by the Department of Energy and Mines, the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism and Manitoba Hydro. • (11 00) In the absence of an Energy ministry in the 1970s, the Manitoba Energy Council was passed which provided for the appointment of an energy council to provide advice on energy matte rs to the Minister responsible for Ene rgy. When the Energy department was established in the early 1980s, the council's role was gradually reduced and it was last active in 1987.

Bill4 will, however, enable the minister to appoint an advisory committee to respond to any energy matter on which the minister may wish to have public consultation or advice. Mr. Speaker, this bill will provide enabling le gislation for implem enting and enforcing regulat ions conce rnin g minimum ener gy efficiency standards or codes for products which use energy or products that affect the use of energy .. Bill 4 is intended to provide a mechanism to prevent Manitoba from becoming a dumping ground for products regulat ed in other jurisdictions which do not meet energy-efficiency standards.

Regulations restricting such products will be subject to public consult ation , and where advisable, will be har mo nize d with other jurisdictions. Mr. Spe aker, I am pleased to tell this House the bill will also require the development and use of ener gy resour ces in Manitoba and must be consistent with the principles of sustainable development In closing, I wish to state the primary reason for introd ucing Bill 4 is to establish the Energy ministry as the responsib le agency for energy planning and policy development, particularly on energy supply and demand issues.

The bill will introduce, for the first time, enabling legislation to implement regulations for end -use ener gy efficiency in keeping with the principles of sustainable development. The bill is the result of considerable discussion by representatives of government de partments , and I commend the efforts of all those who have been involved in its dev elopment. Mr. Speaker, I would urge the support of this bill by every member of the House and look forward to their comments .

May 13,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1656 Mr. Daryl Reid (Traoscona): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 5-The Highway Traffic Amendm ent and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Education and Training (Mr.

Mann ess), that Bill 5, The Highway Traffi c Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifi.ant 1e Code de la route et apportant des modifications correlatives), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to introduce Bill 5 amending The Highway Traffic Act, The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act, and The Off-Road Vehicles Act. There are two purposes for introducing this bill. The first is to implement a new sys tem of providing Autopac serv ices to the citizens of Manitoba.

Although the bulk of the bill consists of amendments to The Highway Traffic Act and The Of f-Road Vehicles Act which are under the purview of my department, and these amendments are necessary to accomplish an initiative brought forward by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, that is the initiative Autopac 2000. Manitoba Public Insurance is curre ntly engaged in a major pro ject that will result in fundamental changes in the way vehicle registration and insurance services will be delivered to the public of Manitoba.

One of the most significant fe atures of the corporation's business plan is the introduction of staggered vehicle registration and insurance renewal periods in place of the current fixed renewal date of March 1. For individual motorists, the new regi stration period will be determined by using the registered own er's birth date plus an offset of some months . The result will be 365 possible renewal dates per year. Introduction of staggered renewal periods is an extremely positive innovation from every aspect. It will reduce the financial burden fe lt each yea r during the traditional Autopac renewal period.

It will eliminate customer line-ups and smooth out customer flow for Autopac agents thus allowing for bet ter public service. It will also enabl e Manitoba Public Insurance to administer the renewal p rocess more efficiently. Another component of the business plan is the daily prorat ion of fe es and premiums. At the present time fees and premiums are assessed based on a system of monthly proration. This means the vehicle owner must pay for an entire month when the vehicle is regi stered or deregistered during any part of that month.

With daily proration fees the premiums will be asse ssed in accordance with the actual number of days the vehicle is registered in that month. There is one more component of the plan I know that members would be interested in. This is a transf er -of-ownership document. The transfer-of-ownership document introd uced a new level of consumer protection for the vehicle purchaser. It will provide potential purchasers with better assurance of the credibility of the seller and the accuracy of the odometer.

Every person regi stering a vehicle will be issued this document in conjunction with the vehicle registration card. It will describe the vehicle and the owner, or owners, who have the right to sell this vehicle. When the vehicle is sold, the owner must pass on the transfer-of-ownership document to the new owner. The owner must also indicate the vehicle 's odometer reading at the time of the sale on the ownership document. The new owner will be required to produce a transf er-of-ownership document, along with the bill of sale, at the time of vehicle regi stration.

We are ver y· pleased to introduce these amendments which we believe will lead to a sign ificant impr ovemen t in the way vehicle insurance and registration of services are delivered in Mani toba. The second purpose for introducing this bill is to . ensure the admissibility of the register of motor vehicles recotds as evidence in court. Last July the Manitoba Court of Appeal declared the regi stered

1657 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1994 records inadmissible because of the use of prepri nted letterhead cont aini ng the regis tered si gna ture. Amendments cont ained in this bill correct this legal technicali ty. I look forward to discu ssing the details of this bill in committee and urge all members of the House to quickl y move this bill al ong to complet ion. I will, Mr. Speaker, also tell the members opposite that I will supply the spreadsheets as soon as I have them available. Thank you very much. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Sel kirk): Mr. Spe aker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr.

Santos), that debate be adjoumed. Motion agreed to. Bill 9-- The Convention Centre Corporation Amendm ent Act Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 9, The Convention Centre Coipo ration Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Co1p0mtion du Centre des congr�s. be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. •

(1110) Mr. Downey: Mr. Speake r, I am pleased to introduce for seco nd reading the bill entitled The Convention Centre COipOration Amendment Act. Mr. Speake r, the pu1p0se of the bill is pri marily for housekeeping na ture. The Board of Directors of the Winnipeg Convention Centre and the Oty of Wi nn ipeg had subm itted application for amendments to The Convention Cent re Co1poration Act in two specific areas. Both amendments have been adopted by the Council of the City of Winn ipeg. Mr. Spea ker, I will like to take a few minutes to describe each of the amendments.

The first amendm ent, Clause 6(1)(b), will allow the Winnipeg Convention Centre Co1porat ion, with the approval of coun cil, to make short -term banking arr angements in which amounts not exceeding the sum of $250 ,00�1 would like to indicate that when the act was enacted on July 20, 1972, the amount of $1 00,000 for short- term banking arrangements was reasonable in relation to the opemti on at that time. Due to the growth and the magnitude of the present Convention Centre opemtion, short- teim cash flow deficiencies have occasional ly occurre d when hosting major events.

This pr oposed amendment will facilitate ongoing cash flow requi rements of the present Convention Centre opemtion. The second amendment is to in crease the board of directors from 13 members to 15 members and to specify the following: term of councillors, term of directors, incomplete term of office, maximum consecutive years of service, reappoi ntment after a period of absence, tmnsitional stag gered terms of app ointment Mr. Speake r, these amendments will facilitate a more effective and timely rotation as well as ens uring conti nuity of directors of the board of the Convention Centre Co1p0mtion.

In addition, the maximum years of service by directors on the board, the reappo intment of directors after a period of absence from the board, and transi tional measures will now be clearly specified. In concl uding, Mr. Speaker, I would expect that these are noncontentious issues with respect to the amendments, and there ought to be no difficulty on the part of honoumble members supporting this bill; at least, I would hope not. I would recommend the bill to the honourable · members of the legislature for their considemtion and adoption. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barre tt), that debate be adjoumed. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2- The Pres cription Drugs Cost Ass istance Amendment and Pharmace utical Amendment Act Mr. Speake r: On the proposed motion of the honoumble Minister of Health (Mr. McCme), Bill 2, The Prescr ipt ion Dru gs Cost Assistance

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1658 Amendment and Pbannaceutical Amendment Act; Loi modifia nt Ia 'Loi sur l'a ide � l' achat de m6dicaments sur ordonnance et Ia

Loi sur les ph armacies, standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this particular bill to express some concerns I bave, not so much about this bill, but about the policy of the Deparunent of Hea lth with respect to the whole issue of prescription drugs. The Liberal Party has been on the record for some time as recognizing the need for reform in our health care system .

We have also been on the record as saying that one of the ways in which the health care system needs to be reformed is to move from the dependence on acute care to home care service delive ry. We need to philosophically change our attitudes so that the health care system is directed not just to illness care but to wellness care. An integral part of keeping people well, keeping them healthy , is the insurance that they get adequate drug therapy when they need adequate drug therapy and that that drug therapy be considered part and parcel of the health care system .

What has been happening over the last few years is the removal of a number of drugs, even those which formerly were covered by prescri ptions, from coverage by our Pharmacare syst em. The reason for this detennination has presumably been a cost-saving measure; however, I would suggest to the government that it does not always work that way. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) In the case of senior citizens, when they no longer have adequate coverage for their drugs, many of them choose not to take those drugs.

The ramifications of them not taking those drugs is that they then find themselves back in a health care system , back in a hospital situation, which is far more costly, I would suggest to the government, than had they been continued on a drug therapy pro gram. The cost of prescription drugs for many people is far too high. We know the changes that have been made by the Province of Manitoba have in fact given an unf air burden to those over the age of 65 who live on modest incomes and to those who are members of our woddng poor.

It has always amazed me that we fail to recognize, as a society, that it is the worlcing poor who are often among the most dis advantaged in our community. Social assistance rates, although certainly not as high as many of those families need, often put famil ies in a better position than fa milies who are working, because with low minimum wage laws we have a situation in which those people who have to live on minimum wage frequently find themselves in a decision.

I am speaking most particularly about single parent mothers who find themselves in a position of having to choose whether they continue to work or whether they go on social assistance because in some cases the social assist ance benefits are better than the benef its they wer e receiving fr om remaining as a worlcing parent. What also hits them very dramatically by living on low wages, as a result of their gainful employment, is that their health care benefits are diminished. Drugs are covered if they are on social assistance.

Drugs are not covered for many of them when they are low income families; low income beca use the y have chosen to be gainf ully employed and to not exist on the social safety net provided by the province and by the fe deral government. When drugs are de listed, these families are very adversely aff ected. This time of year, for examp le, for many families is a particularly difficult one , because if their children are asthmatic, if their children are sub ject to a variety of allergie s, the allergens tend to be at their highest.

As the pollens begin to bombard us, those who suf fer from allergie s, particularly allergies to pollens and grass and weeds, find that they have difficulty breathing.

1659 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 They are frequently subjected to severe nasal congestion. Most of those drugs are not covered. I think it might shock some of the membem if they went to their local drugstore to discover the high cost of many of those drugs which are not covered. H those children, and if adults who suffer from the same type of allergen, do not treat themselves adequately, if they do not keep the antihistamines in their system, then many of them will find themselves in hospital.

They will find themselves in emergency rooms, on inhalation treatments, necessitated because they had not provided themselves with adequate care. The cost of emergency, the cost of inhalation treatment, in a hospital for just one of these children is far greater than the cost that would be covered under prescription drugs.

We must change our philosophical orientation and recognize that if we are genuinely interested in the reform of health care , then we must also be interested in what should be covered by prescription drug legislation. • (1 120) It concerns me, when I see sections of this bill dedicated to "The minister may make regulations." I am referring to

Section "9( 1.1) The minister may make regulations (

a) specifying drugs and other items in respect of the cost of which benefits may be paid." Well, that is part of the present act. The result of that present act has been more and more drugs have been deleted, have not been added-they have been deleted. The implications of that on the health system are very negative . They are negative for the treatment of the patient. But mo re importantly in terms of the fiscal arran gements of this government, they are more costly. Therefore, I would have liked to have seen in this bill a recognition that prescription drugs are not a luxury.

Prescription drugs are a part of the treatment system; prescription drugs are a part and parcel of necessary reform; pres cription drugs are a part of wellne ss; prescription drugs are, in fact, cost-eff ective in all owing individuals to remain outside of the acute care hospital system in many instances. The Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act does provide, we hope, for a long-a waited efficiency of the system.

This party is on the recoid-and I mean this party, the Liberal Party in Manitoba is on the record in 1988 as supporting the concept of a Pharmacare card whereby people could, once they had reached the maximum benefit that they had to pay, they would be then afforded the op portunity to pay only the minimum, they would be given their prescription, and it would be the pharmacy who would then, in turn, bill the government. We knew this would be cost-effective .

We knew it would be efficient, the government has admitted to that, and here we are in 1994, some six yeam later, and we are still waiting for those efficiencies in the system . Those eff iciencies must be found. The formulation of a smart card, the formulation of an ability to ensure that people do not deny themselves their drug medication because they cannot afford to pay the 100 percent, when we know they are going to get a rebate , must be provided for and as soon as possible.

The other difficulties that people find themselves in, and have found themselves in, are those who have not submitted their forms soon enough. Now, Mr. Acting Speaker, in the normal course of events , clearly people should be efficient about their filing of claims, but there are always extenu ating circumst ances. There are circumstances in which there has been a death in a family, and which the family left behind is not perhaps working at its most efficient and theref ore does not claim their benefits as quickly as perhaps they might.

Surely there must be some discretionary power used and employed by the minister so that when there are extenuating circumstances and when it is clear that there are extenuating circumstances that there are not these callous lettem back from the Department of Health saying your deadline was April 30, and you did not submit in time for April 30 and therefore you do not meet the requirements . That certainly should be app licable to most cases .

May 13,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1660 1bere should be an . onus on the patient to submit quickly and efficiently , but there must be the leeway so that the government can act in a more compassionate manner. The discretio ruuy power should be left with the minister. I do not see it in this particular legisl ation, but I hope that the minister will take my words and perhaps put it in the legis lation in order to provide him at this moment, but others, with that discretioruuy power for the extenuating circumstances _that do exist. With those comments, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I leave the bill standing and hope that others will also bring in amendments to this legislation to make this legislation ef fe ctive and efficient legislation and responsive to the needs of the citizens of the pro vince of Manitoba. (Mr. Speaker in the Olair) Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kildonan): The member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) has this bill standing in his name, and I want to indicate that we are prepared, we will be prepared, to expedite as swiftly as possible the passage of this particular bill, although we recognize lh;at the critic for the Liberal Party also wants to speak, and there may be one or two members of my party who wish to comment on this bill But, in general, of course, certainly in theory and in philosophy, we would like to see this bill go to the committee stage to allow for public input and to all ow for discuss ion of some of the aspects of this bill Like the other two parties in this House, we supporte d, by way of resolution in the last session of the Legislature, the provi sion of a Phannacare card, the provision of a PHIN card in order to assist the people of Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker, the government 's record in tenns of refonning health refonn is not a very favourable one . The performance of the last several years leaves a lot open to question and to chall enge. But I think that the introduction of the Phann acare card, which was recommended by all political parties in this House, is a very positive step fo rward.

We certainly have some concerns with respe ct to the introduction of someth ing as complicated and as innovative as this card will be, and that is why we would like the matter to go to the committee stage in order to allow for comments from the community and comments from experts and specialists in the field to detennine the bugs and the debugs and the flaws in the introduction of the card. We welcome it for many reasons.

First and fo remost, it will result in people not having to go through the archaic procedure of submitting their fo rms and having them come back in my mail and all of the steps that are involved in the old system , Mr. Speaker, the old technolo gy. We have access now to expanded technolo gy, to communications that will allow people to have instant access to not only their prescription drugs, to not having to put money up front.

It certainly has been a problem with those on fixed income s, and people that have very exorbitant drug costs have to put the money up front and then wait for the return of their funds from this system. So we certainly welcome that. 1bere have been concerns expressed to us about the whole question of the protection of privacy, and these are very real concerns. That is one of the reasons why we would like to hear expert opinion and hear discussion from the public concerning the whole question of privacy. As we mov e into new and expanding technologi es, Mr.

Speaker, we are clearly in some cases in uncharted waters , and we must go forward with caution and with prudence in order to ensure that we do not jeopardize the privacy and we do not jeopardize the confidentiality of those involved in the system . This is a cl ass ic example of a new technology being introduced, and the technology and a process being introduced which bas the pot ential for dif ficulties in terms of communications of inf onnation regarding privacy.

I reviewed the comments of the minister, and I was pleased to see that the amendment to the act was de ve loped with the assistance of the Con sumers ' Associa tion of Manitoba, the Manitoba So ciety of Seniors, the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties, the College of Physici ans and Sur geons , the Dental Associa tion of Manitoba, the Pharmaceutical Association, Mr. Speaker. We are pleased that input was sought because this is an area where, in

1661 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 fact, as we develop new techno logies, and as we set pieced ents, the groundwolk we lay, that is laid down in this area, is going to be dupli cated and replicated in the future. We have had discussions during the Estimates process about the so-called smart card that will follow in tenns of technolo gy, and any developments that we p rocee d with this particular card, that is the PHIN card, P-H-I-N, will be fol lowed by the smart card.

So any precedents laid down and any bugs uncovered in the pr ocess will not only assist us, but also a precedence set could serve to hann the process in the future , so we must proceed with caution. • (1 130) Having said that, we are also very pleased because, as I recall, from my readings of Hansard, one of the former colleagues, Mr. Jay Cowan, spoke of this card in the introduction a long time ago in this Chamber in 1988, I believe. I know that there has been resol utions in this Olamber since then, so we are very pleased that we are p rocee ding with this.

Although I understand that there are bugs in the system , and they are being worked out, because I was under the impression that the card was to be in effect March 1, and I understand it has been moved back to April !, and now I am not entirely certain of what the start date of the particular card is. The member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) spoke of the whole question of health reform, and the movement from acute care beds to a wellness model, and it is certainly something that we have been advocating in this House for some time.

There is no question that the wellness model is the goal, the goal we should foll ow. In fact, perhaps it should be the dep artment of wellness, Mr. Speaker, not the Department of Health of which we should be speaking. The move toward community-based service is one that has been long advocated by members of this side of the House , and it is something that must be put in place prior to the dismantling of the acute care system and the downsizing of the acute care system .

Therein lies the fail ure of this government with regard to its health reform plan-the failure to put in place realistic, meaningful community- based care and outreach programs prior to the movement of individuals out of the acute care system. That has been our major criticism, as well as the criticism of the lack of communications . As I have posed it to the minister, the problem with the Department of Health is that it is a monologue disguised as a dialogu e. I have mentioned that to the minister on many occasions and it continues, Mr.

Speaker, that the efforts and the movement with regard to health changes in this province continue to be top down and not adequately taking into account representations of the community . That is why we are very intere sted in this process, the introduction of this particular bill, The Prescription Drugs Costs Assistance Amendment and Phann aceutical Amendment Act because this affords us an opportunity-and the minister has indicated that there has been input fr om the community, Mr.

Speaker-to go to committee and to hear realistic, subjective and objective viewpoints presented by members of the public and presented in a fonn that all ows us to amend and change where necessary. And that may have to take place, Mr. Speaker, because as I previously indicated, we are venturing into relatively uncharted waters in this regard, and the one constant that will remain with us will be the constant of change. The theory and the philosophy behind this particular amendment is one that we support. I only wish that other aspects of the government 's health reform had adhered to this parti cular philosophy.

Peihaps we would not be in this state that we are in presently with regard to health care in this province if this philosophy had been adhered to that provided for contribution of members of the community , that provided for meaningful input, that provided for a chance to dialogue and that provided for change coming in once the technology was prepared. Unf ortunately, that has not characterized the government 's health refonn to date, and the result has been a real diffi culty. If one looks at the area of prescription drugs, it is pretty clear that there have been changes in this area.

May 13,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1662 There is no doubt that prescription therapy is, in fact, a preventative · and in many cases one of the areas of health that can contribute to keeping people out of acute care bed hospitals, Mr. Speaker, and it bas been disheartening to see a movement away from universal coverage under our provincial Pbarmacare pro gram. [intetjection] The member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) asked me to comment on the question of the generic drug issue, and I will get to that.

It bas been dis heartening to see the government move away from universality in many are as, certainly in home care supplies and other areas, and it bas been dishe artening to see the government move away from universality with respect to our prescription drug pr ogram. There were major changes to the form ulary last year, and one notes that a lot of those changes resulted in real difficulty with individuals who bad been previously under a foun of drug therapy and saw their particular drug delisted, and fo rced them to either pay the cost or change to some other type of therapy or none at all, Mr. Speaker.

That was unfortunate, and it was a-I can recall questioning the previous minister in the House on this particular issue and attempting to have some moderation changed to the policy, but it was to no avail, and changes did occur that severely impacted on individuals.

Not only did we see drugs come off of the fo unulary and prevent and preclude people from having access to this form of drug therap y, but we have of course seen the government break its promise on Pbarmacare on a yearly basis, which was to, at a minimum, maintain the level at the rate of inflation, but to increase the deductibles so that indivi duals have to put more money up front and to decrease the total amount retmned to individuals in this year. In fact, we see the deductible increased again.

In fact, since the Fllmon government took office in 1988 they have raised the deductible by nearly 50 percent while inflation has increased by less than 25 percent. It is unfortunate because it impacts on those who are gener ally not well, the sick, and those who can ill aff oro, both financially and physica lly, to bear an additional burden. We have been critical of this, and it is unfortunate that it bas occmred in the past several years and continues to occur.

So while we are quite positive, philosophically and otherwise, in our comments with reganl to this particular amendment and in regard to this particular bill, we of course have been highly critical of the changes made by the government in the Pbarmacare program, which bas moved us on the road away from the broad-based universal health care system that is so admired in Manitoba and Canada. [interjection] I note that members opposite on the front bench are encouraging me to discuss aspects of the America nization of our health care system or Connie Curran, but I would be loathe to indicate that even though members opposite would wish me to, because the whole question of this-we on this side of the House tend to be very positive as often as we can.

In fact, that is why we have introduced again this year a bill for The Health Refoun Accountability Act, which I am sure memb ers opposite will support, I am positive. Another one of the positive aspects is-one of the reasons why we raised the issue of the private labs and the potential for dealing and increasing the amount of money available to the public health care system by dealing with this issue.

I know members support us in our initiative to deal with these questions and why we have raised many of the issues of the decrease in service to home care : To put in place the broad-based community health care that is so desired and required as a result of the government 's backing and slashing of the acute care system, which is why I speak favourably, both philosophically and structurally, with these amendments-a process and a change that we asked for and called fo r in this Clamber. It was called for unanimously in this Chamber.

That is perhaps one of the better examples of bow we can function to worlt together to improve our health care syst em. • (1 140) But at the same time, members opposite have to be aware that there are-and that is the difficulty, I

1663 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 am not certain that membeiS opposite are aware of the flaws in this syst em, of the fail ings of the system . It is incwnbent upon us in the oppos ition to point out these failings and the flaws in the system in order to make a better health care system. I know membeiS opposite do not want to hear that, but it is incumbent upon us in the oppo sition to do it, because if they do not hear it from us, they will certainly hear it from the people who sent us all here, when next we have occasion to go to the polls . Mr.

Spea ker, ther e are many areas of preventative hea lth and wellness that the government could put in place with regard to this. This is a small step, but there are certainly many, many areas. The government has talked for some time about their healthy child development, and I think they would have support of this House, all membeiS in this House, on a meaningful healthy child development. We know that infant mortality is much higher amongst those in the low-income leveL We know that low birthweights are a major factor based on socioeconomic background.

We know that these must be dealt with if we want to have a healthier population, if we want to have a population that spends less time in these high-priced acute care hospit als, that has less need for the kind of thing we are talking about today, that is, prescription drugs and prescription therapy. So we must have movement on the part of this government with regard to healthy child development, with regard to wellness . Mr. Speaker, there were many policy papeiS that were put out by the fo rmer minister with regard to pre ventative health care to a wellness model.

Unfort unately, very fe w of them have come to frui tion, and that aspect of reform, that is, prevention and welln ess, seems to have been lost in the governm en t's single -minded attempt to cut costs and only costs. As a result, that initiative has been lost, and we have been trying diligently in the Estimates process to have the minister acknowledge this and move towards this. (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) We find that we have basically been stonewalled by tbetoric and by steadfas tness and a refusal to budge and a refusal to move at all in this regard.

It is unfortunate because that is the way we must go. This is not a political issue. It is a practical issue and it is an important issue and it is a philosophical issue. If we all believe that our health care system should move towards a wellness model, should move towards a preventative model, then we must undertake real initiatives in this area. If the government were to launch meaningful initiative s, they would have the supp ort of members of this side of the House . From the comments, I know, of the member for River Heights (Mrs.

Cant aiiS), they would have the support of membeiS of the Liberal Party as well, if the governm ent would move towards that kind of a model. But it appem that that is not the case. It app ears that the government is going to stay steadfast in its insistence to hack and slash, and it is unfortunate for the people of Manitoba. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) To retum, just in general, to the whole question of prescription drugs, we also had an interesting experience and an interesting development this week. Unan imously again, Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it, all parties called on the fe deral government to undertake to live up to its commitment in the recent election campaign to do something about this whole question of the bad le gislation brought in previously concerning pharmaceuticals, the bad legislation that extended the patent rights on prescription drugs to 20 ye an, the bad legislation that we were told was brought in because of GATT or because of NAFTA and which, in fact, did not have to be brought in, which is probably one of the reasons why drug prices have gone up so dramatically in this country , which is one of the reasons why drug prices have gone up so much in Manitoba, which is one of the excuses given by members opposite-and to a certain extent it is legitim ate-that the costs have become out of band in the Pharmacare pr ogram, which is why they have justified their cutbacks.

Notwithstanding that, Mr. Speaker, the problem is that the action should have taken place and

May 13, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1664 should take place at the federal level. The federal government must step in and must do something about the whole question of this extending of the patent right, because we know that it is a licence to print money for large pharmaceutical multi national companies at the expense of the consumer, at the expense of the people that we are trying to help through this particular amendment and through the changes to the Pharmacare program .

The unfortunate thing is, the initiatives-Bill C-22 and Bill C-98-of the fe deral government have resulted in increased costs for Pharmacare drugs. It bas had a severe impact on all the ec onomi es, and more importantly , it bas had a severe impact on those requiring drug treaunent. So tangential with this, with improvements to our system to provide-to improve the system for the delivery of pharm aceuticals in Manit oba, something unanimously agreed to by all parties.

We also unanimously agreed this week in this session, by way of resolution, to call on the present federal government to do something, to live up to their promise to deal with the issue of this extended patent to large pharmaceutical companies and to allow for their tlourishment and the advancement of the development of generic drug companies who we all know from experience and otherwise have enabled us, at one time, to enjoy a better, lower level of drug cost. So it is comforting to know that member s unanimously passed that resolution this week in the Chamber.

Now we are dealing with a bill that was a result of a resolut ion passed also unanimously last session concerning the introduction of the pharmaceutical card, the PHIN card or the PIN card, however one wants to characterize it That in itself is a positive step, and maybe that is an examp le, perhaps. In this era of massi ve government cutbacks to the health care system and chaos in the health care system , perhaps there is some action that we in this Legislature can take in harmony to try to improve the system for the benefit of all Man itobans .

Cettainly , because this bill was unanimously passed -pardon me, the resolution was unanimously passed, which is the predecessor to this bill, perhaps it could show the way to the proper development of our health care syst em. Because at present with acute care bed hospitals in the city of Winni peg and Brandon facing $100 million in cuts with no expansion of home care services, with the introduction last year of user fe es in home care equipment and supp lies , with the various cutbacks, the strains and the stress es amongst the population are very real .

We must remind members opp osite that these are very real people suffering very real difficulties as a result of the changes that the government bas imposed on the health care system. Unf ortunately, Mr. Speaker, it is not getting better out there. It certainly is not getting better, which is one of the reasons why we called on the government this week to not pay Connie Curran that three -quarters of a mill ion dollars still sitting in trust that bas not been paid out to her. We called on the government this week, do not pay that money out. She does not deserve that money.

The health care system , the people of Manitoba require that money for the health care system, not the American consultant to put into her bank account. We called on the government this week to not pay that money. I still might be hoping against hope , but I am still hoping that the government will see the light and say, no, we are going to stop payment of this three -quarters of a million doll ars. That money could go back into the health care system and provide meaningful service. It could perhaps expand some home care pro grams.

It could perhaps result in more drugs being put on the fo rmulary, could perhaps result in improving the deductible for Manitobans. That money could help to expan d community -based care in our community clinics, to provide nutrition to young mothers and young famili es. • (1 150) That three-quarters of a milli on dollars waiting in trust, sitting there just earmarked, Connie Curran, U.S.A, if you would stop that, if members opposite would stop that, Mr. Speaker, perhaps we could use that money to improve this very system we are talking about, this bill, and that is the system of introducing the PHIN card.

1665 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 I know members opposite are encouraging me to continue on my course of talking about Connie Curran, but I digress, and I prefer to confine my remarks to the general philosophy of this bill.

Frankly, as I said, we are very anxious to see this bill go to committee , because we are anxious to bear from the public, we are anxious to bear from the experts in the field, we are anxious to bear what improvements can be made in this proce ss, because it is a new process, it is uncharted waters , and I am sure there are sugge stions and amendments and there are changes that could be brought forw aid that could improve the system . Let members recognize that this is a significant · change .

Let member s recognize that by introducing this technology in this legislation, that access to inf ormation, confidential information becomes a problem and it becomes an issue. I reiterate, I recognize that many groups have been consulted, but I suggest that as broadly based as possible advice should be sought on this bill, because if one is aware of the ramifications of this particular bill and the impl ications, if one looks at the implications and the ramifications of this bill, we should ensure that we consult broadly and we look at and talk with as many experts in the field as possible .

I bad occasion to bear a discussion on Morningside of new technologies and privacy incumbent upon those new technologies, and I thought that every time there was in that discussion a suggestion that privacy was assured as a result of the introduction of a similar kind of techno logy, there was a counterargument put forward as to bow that privacy could not be assured So, Mr. Speaker, this are a is rife with diff iculties, and I [intetj ection] Mr. Speaker, members opposite are encouraging me to use all of my remaining 12 minutes .

In fact, I bear cries from the back bench to perhaps offer me leave to continue my discourse, but I do wish to-we should not underscore the diffi culties in this area and we should not underscor e the difficulties of the technological changes and the whole issue out of privacy, and I suggest that when the technology is intr oduced, that when tbe-[intetj ection] 1be member talks about new technology and old technology, and I must add that in certain cases I utilize old technology.

This area is ripe with diffi culty, and I think we are going to have to be very cautious in the introduction of this process to assure individuals who may be concerned about the potential for misuse of information and the potential for loss of privacy and loss of confide ntiality regarding this technolog y. Just let me-and this is no criticism, Mr. Speaker, but just let me cite an examp le.

Supposing an individual is on, shall we say, an antidep ressant or some other psychia tric drug, there is a stigma I think we have to recognize there is a stigma ass ociated with psychiatric illness and mental illness in general, and it would be interesting to note if an individual was to receive or was receiving a psychiatric drug they might be concerned about who was aware of this fact, because it obviously would reflect upon their-it may reflect upon their competency, even though that is not realistic. An illness of the mind in my opinion is really fundament ally no diff erent than an illness of the body.

Nonethele ss, one could foresee situations where individuals might be not as inclined to perhaps approach their druggist or their doctor to obtain, say, a psychiatric drug or a drug of some kind because of fe ar that that information would be made public or could be made public. That is just one example of an area that as we move in these uncharted waters bas to be cons idered, and that bas to be considered with respect to indi viduals .

I know that the bill bas penalties with respect to the release of information and bas guidelines built in, but I think we have to look very carefully at the specific government agencies and others who interact with individuals who may have access to this information. It is one thing, for example , for the Department of Health and certain areas and aspects of the Dep artment of Health to have access to this inf ormation, but what happens if an indiv idual, for example, is incarcerated? The individual is incarcerate d, and we have now introduced the

May 13,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1666 element of the Department of Justice and Comctions into the equation. To what extent does that particular department have access to the information that is contained in the individual's prescription profile or registry? I know that safeguards, or I hope that safeguards are built in in that regard, but these are the kinds of questions that will come up, questions with regard to Family Services, questions with regard to access to information from other government officials and from outside officials.

One of the concerns expre ssed in that Morningside discussion that I referred to previously was the fact that private agencies have obtained access to a fair amount of information contained in the new technological area. 1be fact that these private agencies bad access to it opened up a whole new area of discussion, and also an area of potential abuse. I am not sug gesting by these comments to indicate that this will necess arily happen in Manitoba, but I think it is a concern that must be expressed and which we must be wary of.

We should subject this particular bill to very intense scrutiny, particularly in committee, and we should attempt to discuss it and go through literally every plausible scenario in our review of this legislation. We should go through every plausible scenario to ensure that every contingency that we can possibly think of can be considered and to ensure that any of these potential difficulties can be dealt with by the legislation, the amendments. So, Mr. Speaker, certainly, as I have indicated throughout, we are looking forward to this matter going to committee.

I believe I probably will be the only, with the exce ption of the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), who will make very brief comments, I will be basically the only member of our party dealing with this amendment We look forward to its movement towards committee , we look forward to the opportunity to scrutinize it in detail.

And I might add, when it does go to committee, I would suggest that we be vigilant and spend adequate energy, time and discussion on this at comm ittee to ensur e that the ef fe cts of this amendment are followed through with, because once we are into this technology and once we are into this development, there is probably no looking back, and if we want to have an effective program in Manitoba, if we want to build on this program to further develop the technologies by way of the smart card, if we want to do that then we must assure ourselves that we are laying adequate · groundwork and that we are establishing an adequate system in place for Manitobans.

When bills and other matters are considered at committee it is always a very important area and function, but I suggest that with this particular bill it becomes of greater importance because of the implications, the long-t er m ef fe cts and the precedents that can be established by this bill and by the introduction of this technology. •

(1200) Mr. Speaker, in general, that fairly well sums up my comments and I believe most of the comments of my coll eagues, and I certainly thank members oppo site for their helpful suggestions with regard to my comments and the effect of same, and I believe that the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) bas a few brief comments to put on this bill, and I can assure the House that that will complete our discussion of this bill at this reading, and we will look forward to its movement to committee .

I understand that the Liberal Health critic at some future point wants to put on the reco rd some comments in this regard, but I want to assure you that that will be our suffice in terms of our review of this bill at this time. Having put those comments on the record, Mr. Speaker, I thank you very much. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I will be very brief with my comments, Mr. Speaker, regarding Bill 2, The Prescription Drugs Cos t Assistance Amendment and Pharmaceutical Amendment Act. This is an important piece of legislation, I am sure, for most Manitobans, and I know it is for my constituents.

I have bad dealings with several of my constituents over the last four years with con cerns that they have with respect to the prescription drug costs in our provi nce. I know I have bad several of them come to my office and

1667 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 talk to me about problems that they have encountered with respect to the government 's decision not to extend the deadline for the refu ndable monies, and I am talking about the artificial deadline.

I believe that this piece of legislation will allow the cost to be imm ediately refunded to the individuals that are appl ying or are receiving prescription drugs through the dispensing pharmacies or agencies, and at that time it will eff ectively reduce the immediate costs for the consum ers, for those that need prescription drugs. 1bey will then be able to go to the pharmacies and re ceive their prescr iptions or have their prescriptions filled, and at that time they will not have to pay out of their own pockets the full cost that they would have done under the current system .

This will reduce their immediate costs and, of course, will reduce the risk of them losing the refundable portion of the monies for those that, through either oversight or through personal circumstances, may not have ap plied for the refunds by the artificial date that had been in place in the past. It is my understanding that there is supp osed to be a smart card that is supposed to be coming, although we do not know when the start date is for this program or this initiative.

We think that this will increase the op portunities or speed up the pr ocess to reduce the costs for the consumers in the marketplace , most likely the seniors, the sick and · the disabled of our communities that will have to pay these monies out of their pocket. This will reduce the cost for them . I hope that it will improve the service delivery for the people. I hope, and I look at the legislation itself, that there is going to be some insurances or some prote ctions put in place for those that may attempt to issue false receipts or provide misle ading information.

There are also other sections of this legislation that protect infonnation confidentiality. My colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has put his comments on the record pertaining to individuals who may be incarcerated and the problems that might be encountered there. I am sure the minister would have listened to those comments, and I hope he will take them under advisement. 1be concern that people in my community have as well, Mr. Speaker, is the 20-yea r patent protection and the ever -esca lating cost of prescription medications in our province .

We hope that the federal government will seriously consider and effectively implement a repeal of that 20-year patent protection for the prescription drugs within Canada. Of course, for those who are within our province of Manitoba, that has added greatly to the costs. 1be other concerns that came to my attention, Mr. Speaker, by constituents who have drawn their concerns to my attention conceming prescription drugs, is the deinsurance of some of the drugs or the delisting of some of the drugs that the government had previously covered.

Of course, this further adds to the costs of those who require those drugs, and quite often it is the seniors in my community that are impacted by this decision. That is an unfortunate decision that the government had taken last year, and of course, we have drawn that to the government 's attention in the past. My colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has indicated that we are prepared to have this legisla tion mo ve through to the committee stage and to allow the members of the public the opportunity to come forward with any concerns or any comments that they might have with respect to this Bill 2.

We look forward to those committee hearings taking place , to listening to members of the public. Thank you for the oppo rtunity. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a matter of House business, there has been discussion amongst House leaders with respect to sitting next week. I suspect, if you

May 13,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1668 canvassed the House, there might be unanimous leave to sit on We dliesday, May 18, in the evening from 7 p.m. to 11 p.m. and to waive the sitting for Friday. May 20. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to not sit on Friday, May 207 [agreed] Is there leave to sit Wednesday night. May 18, between the hours of seven and 11 7 [agreed] Committee Changes Mr. Edward Belwer (GimH): I move, seconded by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallis ter) , that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: the member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner) for the member for Gimli. Motion agreed to. Bill3-1be Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendment Ad Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), Bill 3, The C ancer Treatment and Research Foundation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Fondation de traitement du cancer et de recherche en canc�rologie, standing in the name of the honourable member for Transc ona (Mr. Reid). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that that matter remain standing? [agreed] Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, as the minister indicated, this is primarily a hou se keeping bill to esta blish a piece of legislation. The Cancer Treatment and Re search Foundation Amendment Act, but it just amends the present Cancer Treatment and Rese arch Foundation Act as it presently exists.

The remarks that I want to make are primarily about the Cancer Treatment Centre itself, which provides some very valu able service in this commun ity and to all of Manitobans. The fundraising efforts of this foundation which have bee n, quite frankly, magnificent in the amounts of money they have been able to bring in, should be, I think , recognized by the citizens of the province of Manitoba. There is a sense , quite often you know, that it is governments and governments alone that fund the health care system . They do it through taxpayer's money.

Well, a large part, certainly-the vast majority of the health care system in this province is funded by the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba through the taxation system and therefore through the government. •

(1210) However, there are a number of foundations, the Cancer Treatment Centre Foundation being one, that go seek from corporations and from individuals vast sums of money, and it never ceases to amaze me the degree of generosity that is portrayed by Manitobans when these foundations come to them and request funds . They literally tum out their pockets in order to achieve the sums of money they need to remain viable foundatiom. One of the changes that I must say I am absolutely delighted with in this bill, has been the change in the membership of the foundation.

In the past there has been a tendency for the governments of the day to appoint large numbers of the members of the board to the research foundation. What has happe ned in this particular amendment is that the individuals who will now sit on this board come from very specific representative bodies. The Health Sc iences Centre will have a representative . The St. Boniface General Hospital will have representative . The board of governors of the University of Manitoba will have a representati ve. (Mr.

Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Unfortunately we are still left with 10 persons app ointed by the Minister of Health and another seven app ointed by the foundation. subject to the app roval of the Lieutenant-Governor-in- Council. That concerns me because I think the foundation itself has a better understanding of the type of individual it needs on that foundation board than fre quently does government .

All too often the government appointe es, no matter what the government in power-this is not a criticism of the present government-tend to appoint people , not because of their knowledge of cancer, not because of their knowledge of fundraising, which are the two most important components of the foundation,

1669 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13,1994 but because they belong to the right political party of the day or they represent a favour due and owing or whatever, and I think that is unfortunate. It bas led to a lack of consistency on the boards, and that is not in the foundation's best interest. I think when we look at the very fine work that bas been done by this foundation in the past, and hopefully will continue to do so in the future, that we should be trying to depoli ticize to a greater extent than what this particular amendment allows for.

I was hope ful, quite frankly, that the balance would have shifted more dramatically, that instead of seven persons app ointed by the foundation subject to the approval of the Lieute nant Governor-in-Council , they would now become the predominant number, and that bas not happe ned. Ten persons will still be appointed by the Department of Health, and that leads itself to the political type of app ointment which I do not think serves this foundation particularly well . I would ask the minister to reconsider and to change the mix.

I am not suggesting there is not an intere st in the Department of Health for this foundation and that the Department of Health should not, indeed, have representation. I think they should, but I do not think they have to have the majo rity of member s on this particular foundation. I would like the government to consider that and to amend the bill accoidingly. {Mr. Speaker in the Cllair) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Becky Barrett (Well ington): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Ms. Barrett: We do not .... Mr.

Speaker: There is no need for that. Leave has already been granted to allow this matter to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Okay. Bill7- The Crown Lands Amen dment Act Mr. Speaker: On the propo sed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources {Mr. Driedger), Bill No. 7, The Crown Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson {Mr. Ashton). Stand? An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Bill8- The Fisheries Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources {Mr. Driedger), Bill No. 8, The Fisheries Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur la p@che, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson {Mr. Ashton). Stand? An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on The Fisheries Amendment Act, because although I will probably not be the only speaker from my party on this particular act, we would like to see this act proceed as quickly as possible to passage , and hopefully see that it will come into force and eff ect almost immediately.

I think the provisions in the bill, particularly with respect to search and seizure and with respect to additional fines, are ones that should be put into place as soon as possible and, hope fully, even for this particular season of the commercial fishery in the province of Manitoba. Theref ore, I think that it is mostly a housekeeping bill but with some positive additions, particularly with regard to the fines. I think this will keep our fishery, hopefully , in better control against those who would violate, and unfortunatel y, there are those who would choose to break the rules as they presently exist.

This will give some force and effect to those who have the authority to enforce this regulation. I hope that with the agreement of the other opposition party , we can move this bill along quite quickly.

May 13,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1670 1baDk you, Mr. Speaker. Bill 10-The WDdlife Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), Bill No. 10, The WJldlife Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia conservation de Ia faune, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] Is it the will of the House to call it 12:307 [agreed] The hour being 12:30, this House now adjourns and stands adjourned until 1: 30 p.m. Monday. Have a great weekend.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday , May 13, 1994 CONTENTS ROU1TNE PROCEEDINGS Chief Medical Examiner Mackintosh; V odrey 1651 Presenting Reports by Foster Care Standing and Special Committees McCormick; Mitchelson 1652 Committee of Supply Nonpolitical Statements Dacquay 1642 Ministerial Statements and Ducks Unlimited Waterfowl Celebration Tabling of Reports Helwer 1653 Emergency Prep aredness Week The Wmnipeg General Strike Duchanne 1642 Martindale 1653 Doer 1643 Carstairs 1643 ORDERS OF THE DAY Estimates, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba Second Readings McCrae 1643 Estimates, Urban Affairs Bill 4, Energy and Consequential Amendments Act Mcintosh 1644 Orchard 1654 Oral Questions Bill S, Highway Traffic Amendment The Winnipeg Jets and Consequential Amendments Act Doer; Filmon 1644 Fin<D.ay 1656 Wmnipe g Police Services Bill 9, Convention Centre Corporation Mackintosh; V odrey 1646 Amendment Act Downey 1657 The Winnipeg Jets Edwards; Filmon 1646 Deb ate on Second Readings Social Assistance Bill 2, Prescription Drugs Cost Martindale; Mitchelson 1647 Assistance Amendment and Legionnaires ' Disease Pharmaceutical Amendment Act Cerilli; Praznik 1648 Carstairs 1658 Cbomiak 1660 Indoor Air Quality Reid 1666 Cerilli; Praznik 1649 Bill 3, Cancer Treatment and Research He alth Care System Reform Foundation Amendment Act Gray; McCrae 1649 Carstairs 1668 Health Care System Bill 8, Fisheries Amendment Act Cbomiak; McCrae 1650 Carstairs 1669

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2b234d27bd5407843e9f27ee52f2efdd4585e19f

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