LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CUNCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, H. Harapiak: I will call the Comm it­ tee to order. We are on the Estimates of the Attorney­ General, No. 2. Legal Services. Mr. Minister. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, ju st a su pplement. An answer I gave to the Member for St. Nor bert jus t before adjournm ent at 4:3 0 on the Estimate for outside coun­ sel.

In Civil Litigation the Estimate includes a figure of $10,000; for Criminal Prosec ution there are two separate items: professional fees of $7,500 and CFI $50,000, so that there's a total in the two appropria­ tions for $67,500.00. Now it may be that we might have to move between one and the other. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: No fur ther qu estions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a) (1) has been passed. 2.(a)

(2) Other Expen ditures-pass. 2. (

b) Criminal Prosecu­ tions, 2.(b )

(1) Salar ies-the Memb er for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate what the cu rrent back log is? Again, it relates to cou rts or criminal prosecutions but I think we can deal with it here and we won't deal with it later on. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. It 's moved do wn. I think it moved down significantly between 1979-80 or 1980- 81. In any event, we've got it down now to about fo ur months and these are for persons not in custody. Fou r to four and one -hal f months is the tu rnarou nd period for persons in custody where we are arra nging special sittings. MR. G.

MERCIER: Ha s there been any change in the proced ures that were in effect when the Attorney­ Gener al took office? HON. R. PENNER: Well, there's been an attempt in the Pro vincial Ju dge's Cou rt in the Publi c Safety Buil ding. Ther e's an experiment going on with a screening cour t, and whether or not that is really cost efficient is yet to be determined but that's about as muc h as has been done since I' ve taken office. That may have started, in fact, dur ing the Memb er for St. Norb ert's term. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, of cour se, the idea was to try to get to a three-month backlog, whether that is attainable or not I supp ose is que stionable but it's an objective, I think, that has to be kept in mind and worked towards and certainly not allo w the cu rrent backlo g to get any fur ther behind. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. I recall, I'm sur e the Memb er for St. No rbert can, when it was six months and six­ months-plus and it's been brought down to four and that's been maintained for a couple of years.

I don't know to what extent the change s, for example, to The Sum mary Conviction Act will lessen the load on the cour ts and provide for a shorter tu rnaround.

I gue ss there's a point of marginal retur ns or a point of no return perhaps, in the sense that the difficulty, and it may be an intractable difficult y as in scheduling, where defense lawyers will on behalf of their clients - genui nely, and I think not for any ul terior or bad motives - enter a plea of not guil ty and set a trial date, leaving themselves the time which appropriately they should have to look at all facets of their cl ient's case; see whether or not there are any mitigating circum­ stances and then that, of cour se, has blocked off a trial date on the calendar and they'll come to that trial date or close to it, and decide that, in fact, there is no defense available to their client and enter a plea.

Meantime, the cour t date has been set and we lose that time. I doub t whether you can really find a solution to that that isn't Draconian, that doesn't in fact shor t-circuit the legitimate right of full defense that persons accused of a criminal offence should have. I think ideally one wou ld like to get it down to about three months and certainly efforts will be made. I think we're doing well compared to other ju risdictions as far as I know to hold it at four months. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we had some dis­ cussion earlier on a Fine Option Program.

Could the Attorney-General indicate when he expects to be in a position to annou nce that program? HON. R. PENNER: We're aiming at a start- up date of Septe mber 1st. I think we can make it.

You see what's required to make this program work; we have retained a person to head up the program and that's Bob Dojack who was the Senior Probation Officer and since, in fact, the prog ram will use the people in pro­ bation services in the commun ities to work with the communities, it will requir e - and that's what Dojack is work ing on now - wor king with communities on find­ ing the kind of community service projects which are meaningful as alterna tives to the jail in lieu of payment of fine. 2710 The experience in Saskatchewan with a fine option program is that it takes about a year to two to re ally realize its benefits, but once it's in full swing it's esti­ mated that the amou nt of time that is saved and the amount of money that is saved in incarceration costs more than pays for the program.

MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, on anothe r topic I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate whether he has or his department has made any changes in the department's policy gu idelines with respect to obs­ cenity matters. It was a matter of some controversy, in particular one incident, and when we left office we had under consideration - at least when I say we, I meant myself with the department - were giving some con­ sideration to a change in pol icy gu idelines. I wonder if

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 the Attorney -Gener al could indicate whether or not there have been any changes. HON. R. PENNER: No, it seemed to me that the gu ide­ lines which had been adopted during the previous Attorney-General's tenure were sou nd, and in the absence of any serious flar e-up of obscenity and complai nts, I was content and remain content to fol­ low those guideli nes.

I tend to look at the problem to a very considerable extent, not excl usively, as what might be termed a nuisance problem, that is that one is really lo oking at people who have no use for this kind of material hav­ ing it thrust upon them. I have recently instructed the laying of char ges in an instance - and this may be typical of the approach that I would like to take - in which a conve nience-type store or a family-type grocery store, this kind of material was openly dis­ played near the candy cou nter available to childr en and it was really qu ite offensive.

Ther e were com­ plaints and I had no hesitation in auth orizing that char ges should be laid. It seemed to me to fit well within the guideli nes which had been proposed. I must say and I don't now whether I am surp rised or not - so little surp rises me at this late stage in my life - that there have been virtually no complaints as the previous Attorney-General will have had, lots of let­ ters about drunk en drivers and problems of this kind and the severity of sentences, but I have had virtually none about obscenity. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, I wonder if the Attorney-General could indicate whether he has any difficu lties with the concept of prosecutorial discre­ tion.

It seemed to me that in the particular incident, I think he will be aware of the incident that was referred to where a book sell er with no previous conditions, the department having received a complaint from a member of the pub lic and the department having reviewed the publ ication in qu estion and coming to the viewpoint - and not without considerable study and thought being given it, having been reviewed by a numb er of senior law officers of the Crown - coming to the view th.at the pub lications did in their opinion offend the provisions of the Criminal Code, advised the book sel lor tha t in their opinion they did so and as a resu lt, the public ations were removed and no charges were brought forward; that being, Mr .

Chairman, an exercise of prosecutorial discretion which some peo­ ple it seemed could n't qu ite understand. Without get­ ting into the arguing over the merits of that particular case, I wonder if the Attorney -Gener al has any thought s about the exerc ise of pr osec utorial discretion. HON. R. PENNER: Let me deal with the general qu es­ tion first. I think there should be a fairly significant element of prosecutorial discretion.

Life is so comple x and hu man behav iour is so complex and the varieties are almo st infinite thereof, that I would hope we don't come to that point where in every instance there may be a breac h of the law, there is a kind of a knee-jerk reaction and a charge laid. We have in my view - and this is based on a lot of years of experience in the cour ts going back in terms of experience in the criminal cour ts, I go back before 2711 my call even to 1958, so mathematically you can figure that out.

We have in this province particularly, I think, in the last several years, a particularly good grou p of Crown Attorneys, senior in experience, careful in their exer­ cise of jud gement. I have had no reason to feel disatis­ fied in my brief tenure in this particular office with the way in which that prosecutorial discretion is exer­ cised. I don't feel uncomfortable with the concept.

I think it is important from time to time to lay down gu idel ines, that as the Attorney-General I have that responsibility and I have exercised it with respect to, for example, impaired driving, and I have exercised it, in a way, in maintaining the gu idelines previously estabished on obscenity. With respect to obscenity, one does get into a grey area, in which - it is one thing to exercise prosecutorial discretion and say upon a complaint being received and the material reviewed - well no, a charge will not be laid here.

Ther e's another thing, I think to feel that maybe the material does breach the law, therefore the prosecutor or from the prosecutor to the Director of Prosecutions, a communication is made to the pur ­ veyor, the vendor of the pu blished material or in some instances by a different route, the movie distributor or exhibitor rather, and there is almo st an implied threat that might be seen there. Wel l, we think this is pretty border line, we'll give you a chance and remove it from the shelv es or don't exhibit.

That trenches too closely on censorship and I would rather that we didn't use prosecutorial discretion in that way. We all presume to know the laws in the business of making money. The exhibition of risque films or the sel ling of risque material, I think they do it at their risk and if, upon a review of the material by the Crown as in the instance I gave, the Crown feels there is evidence of obscenity, charge them and let the cou rts decide. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, I would like to move on to another matter, where I think a mistake has been made and that relates to this hockey incident. I think, Mr. Chairman, that Jimmy Mann of the Jets was quite properly charged, but I think a mistake was made when the other participant in that incident, Paul Gardner , of the Pittsb urgh Penguins was not charged when ... HON. R. PENNER: It 's bad enou gh I got it wrong once, I don't want you to get it wrong. MR. G.

MERCIER: ... when the films which were, I am sur e any Man itoban who watched the sporting pro­ grams saw the video tape on numerous occasions which clearly showed that Gar dner struck Smale with his stick on the head and with such force that the -(I nterjection)- I didn't realize that was the case, Mr. Chairman, but struck him with such force that the stick was broken. HON. R. PENNER: I am gla d he survived, Harr y, you may need that vote in the next election. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I don't raise the matter, Mr . Chairman, frankl y in any derogatory way.

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 HON. R. PENNER: No, I think he'd appreciate that. MR. G. MERCIER: I think that you ng people can't understand and I can't und erstand why both of them were not char ged with assault. I think it has set a bad example for yo ung people playing hockey because they see one participant getting away with what I think al most anyb ody viewing the situation sees as a crimi­ nal assault. The Attorney- General advised me in question period the other day that there was not suf ficient evidence to warrant charges. Well, Mr .

Chairman, if a hockey player can break his stick over the head of another hockey pla yer, then one has to ask the que stion, what is criminal assaul t? How far do you have to go? Are you ng people playing hockey supp osed to be left with the impression now that they can break their stick over the head of another player and they will not be charged with a criminal assaul t? HON. R. PENNER: I certainly wouldn 't want to leave that impression.

The distinction which I made or sought to make was that, as I read the police report, the factual distinction - the law obviously would be the same in both instances, but there is always distinc­ tions in fact - the factual distinction was that in the Gardner -Smale incident, it occu rred clearly in the play of the game where as in the Mann-Gardner inci­ dent, it did not occur in the play of the game. Now, you might say, and I would have to accept your opinion as being a valid opinion, that you differ fro m me in your perception of the facts.

But I do want you to realize that I took a par ticular view of the facts as reported to me and it was on that basis that I made the decision. Someone else, perhaps your self or someone else sitting in my chair, might have come to a different conclusion.

But as I said in the Ho use and in the press statements to begin with, the law it seems to me is quite clear and I don't think there is a difference between us on the law and that is, that in bod ily con­ tact sports there is an element of implied consent to the laying on of force and the cour ts are really left with a factual que stion to det ermine when has the implied consent been exceeded? I came to the concl usion and indeed I continue to hold that view, that in the Mann incident there was a clear breach of the implied consent with respect to the application of force.

In the Gar dner-S male incident, it was not that clear. MR. G. MERCIER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I sup pose we'll have to ag ree to disagree because I don't believe that it is any less a criminal assault ju st because it occurs before the whistle bl ows. For a player to strike another player with his stick with suf ficient force to break his stick, to me is a criminal assault. I hope, Mr.

Chairman, that the Mann prosecution would be suffi­ cient deterrent to you ng players, but I am uneasy about the fact that the Ga rdner incident was not, that he was also not prosecuted as a result of his actions because in my opinion it was jus t as muc h a criminal assault. Bu t apparently, Mr . Ch airman, we'll have to agree to disagree on that aspect of it and hope that the one charge will be suf ficient to deter this type of action among, particularly, younge r hockey players. HON. R. PENNER: Ju st briefly, I certainly share that sentiment and I hope that it will have that effect. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was prompted to enter into the Estimates of the Attorney­ General by the sub ject matter that was raised by my colleague, the Memb er for St. Norbert, about prosecu­ torial discretion. I would like to examine with the Attorney-General the discretion that was exercised re a business enterprise that makes payroll deduc tions from employees and then fails to forward those deduc tions, those monies, to the approp riate agency in qu estion. Firstly, I und erstand from news reports emanating out of the Attorney- Gener al's office ... MR.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. En ns, could we ask you to move in closer because Ha nsard is not picking you up clear. MR. H. ENNS: Wel l, it's not that earth shattering anyway. No, the qu estion is prompted because of today's news reports emanating from the Attorney -Gene ral's office, that the Attorney-General's office had chosen not to intervene in a particular instance that I know the Attorney-General is aware of. One of my first que s­ tions has to be that employers reg ul arly deduc t cer­ tain monies for many different pu rposes from employ ees' earned earnings.

I' ve never been a big employer, but I know that when I deduct such thi ngs as un employ ment insurance charges from employees I' ve had and do not forward them to the appropriate agency in due cour se, I'm visited by inspectors of the unemployment insurance agency and am told in no short manner that has to be rectified or else I face - wel l, potentially some charges.

My que stion really is - and I understand again from those reports that the A/G's department has had an opportun ity to review the circu mstances that I speak of and RCMP investigation has taken place - were there, in fact, deductions made from emplo yees that were not passed on to the appropriate agency? HON. R. PENNER: I hope the Me mber for Lakeside doesn't mind if I ju st stand back a bit and indicate the general approach and then the specifics. Two ele­ ments in the general approach.

First of all, with respect to most but not all crimes, but most serious crimes, fraud for example, one might sugge st that if there's a possible offence in situations like that, it might be in the nature of fraud char ges. In charges of that kind there are two eleme nts.

There's what is called the criminal act, the actus and then there has to be proved beyond a reasonable doub t a certain state of mind, mens rea, the guil ty intention, the intention to defraud It is very often the case that what took place ought not to have taken pla ce, that te chn ically breaches the law in terms of the way in which money that is held in trus t is allocated, but that the act lacked the necessary intention.

This particular circumstance if a char ge were to be la id - is the kind of cha rge where the Crown would have to prove intention to defraud beyond a reasonable doub t. 2712 The second general point I want to make is that here as in the Mann case, I was very careful, perhaps in the

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 Mann case not careful enou gh in terms of publi c pro­ nou ncements, not to be personally involved. I made the statement in the Ho use once, I don't want to be su per cop. We've got RCMP, we've got Special Prose­ cutions Division. It 's their responsibility to investigate and to report to me, so that in the instance that you'r e tal king about, not the Mann incident, but the one involving deductions not remitted, there were deduc­ tions not remitted.

I'm satisfied on the basis of reports made to me, and I simply have accepted reco mmen­ dations made to me; I haven't made a decision other than to accept the recommend ations that the people running the shop - not the owner - caught in a problem of cash flow, were using cash that was dedu cted in a way in which it ought not to have been used, but with no apparent intention to defraud certainly not for per­ sonal gain, nor was it with the knowledge - and if it was with the knowledge it might then be gu ilty knowledge which is the same as intention - of the proprietor who, as I understand it as reported to me, was very angr y when these facts were brought to his attention.

It was on the basis of that investigation that the persons investigating, including one of our senior Crown Attorneys, came to the concl usion that no charge ough t to be laid. In deed, I may say, and I think that's the way it ought to take pla ce, the first that I knew about that decision was as I read it in the paper. I would n't want someone to come to me and say well, there may be a case against Mr . Big, who ever Mr . Big might be and how­ ever Mr. Big might be big, because of wealth or status or pol itical connections, what do you think we should do?

I never want to be in that position if I can avoid it, it's a dangerous position to be in because sooner or later the ju dgement is going to be, I think, biased by being in that position. As I said earlier, we really do have a very good prosecutorial

section in the Crown Attorneys we have and I'm content to let them investigate with the assis­ tance of the police, the RCMP ii necessary, the City Police where that's warranted, and make a decision. It was the same, incidentally, with respect to that charge which was annou nced in the Hou se today. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr . Chairman, I find myself wish­ ing to agree with the Attorney-General's general statement, that the issue was not one of any intent to defraud. You know, having some first-hand and per­ sonal knowledge of the situation, and having some appreciation of the difficulties that farm machinery companies and other companies have had, I don't qu arrel with the Attorney-General's

interpretation of an acceptance of the department's recommendations in this regard. Bu t the regrettable factor is that a long­ standing emplo yee who has contrib uted over a long numb er of years, I understand it's some 22 years, to a program of insurance in this instance and for what­ ever reasons - difficul ties of the firm, not difficu lties to do wrong by the firm - but nonetheless the death of that particular employee now placing a widow in a position of not being able to lay what I think most of us would assume to be a very reasonable claim to that benefit.

I would ask the Attorney-General if, for instance, the employer's contribution to the Workers Com pen­ sation Board had not been made and that emplo yee got injured on the job, would the

interpretation of the department be the same, particularly on the part of this Attorney-General and the government that he represents? Let's say the employee had suffered a serious injury, perhaps a disabil ity for the rest of his life, would there not have been even some compas­ sionate grou nds on the part of this Attorney-General and this government to make sur e that the letter of the law was carried out? And by the way that's a qu estion that the Attorney­ General did not answer in my first qu estion.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not fully conversant with all the labour laws that are in existence in the province, but again I ask that qu estion, I assume that there is a law cover­ ing, you know, whether you intend to prosecute or not, but that commands or calls for the transm ittal of these payments once these payr oll deductions are made. I wou ld think that an em ployer could not make, for instance, un ion ded uctions and then withhold them at his will. This must be covered in the Man itoba statute, the labour law, or some appropriate law that has ju risdiction in this instance. MR. R.

PENNER: Basicall y all of the exam ples which you use really amount to the same thing, namely, the possibility of fraud. If a lawyer, for exam ple, has money which does not legally belong to that lawyer intentionally uses that money for private gain, even though it might be said that the lawyer was in desper­ ate circu mstances, if the intention was there, the knowledge, the guil ty knowledge, the lawyer will be -and properly so - charged with fraud and in most instances of which I'm aware, convicted. One recent case there was a finding of not guil ty in very uniqu e circu mstances.

If a person ded ucts at sou rce for any reason, whether it's for workers compensation or for income tax or for pension and knowingly, intentionally arro­ gates that unto himself, or herself - or itself if it's a corporation that can be charged in certain circum ­ stances - if the intention is there then all elements of fraud are there, and a charge ought to be laid and the court sho uld decide whether they're satisfied on the basis of ad missible evidence of the gui lt of the accused beyo nd a reasonable doub t. 2713 If I ju st can concl ude this answer; one, I think, has to ju dge all of these cases in a sense, difficult as it is and I appreciate that, by the act and the state of mind rather than by the resul t.

Now, you often use this exa mple: take two instances in which a dr iver approaches a stop sign. Driver A approaches a stop sign sober, steadfast, and dem ure, like the nun in Browning's poem, and is momentarily distracted, goes through the stop sign, hits and kill s a pedestrian. And we say "My Go d, that person has kill ed a pedestrian," and they all cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war. What has that person done criminally? Well let's, by way of comparison, take dr iver B.

Driver B drunk as a skunk, tearing at 80 miles an hour, doesn't give a damn, rips through the stop sign, kills the cousin of the same person. The big difference between the two, and I think that in any civilized society we would recog nize that difference, is that Dr iver B has a wanton and reckless criminal state of mind and we should cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war on Driver B. There have been instances, not many years ago, in

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 which a policewoman was charged at a stop sign incident in which, in fact, there was no drinking, no nothing, ju st what would normally be charged as care­ less dr iving. The thing that distingu ished it from other careless driving where you or I might be caught going throu gh a stop sign is that unfortu nately for the victim and all concerned, a person was killed. That pol ice officer was charged under The Hig hway Traffic Act with careless driving, maximum fine $50.00. Bu t diffi­ cult as that is to gr asp because one looks at the con­ sequences, in legal terms it was right. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, with all deference to the Attorney -General, I su ggest that the big difference is that Driver A or Dr iver B did not pay over to a third party responsible under law for some 22 years, a pre­ mium for a particular benefit or a coverage and that's what we are tal king about. I am distu rbed that we have a gov ernment predisposed favo ur ably to the work ing man's rights in this cou ntry that sees a widow dispos­ sessed of her legitimate claim of an insur ance claim and that disturbs me. I will leave it at that, Mr .

Chair­ man, I have no intention to pur sue the matter fu rther. But there is one Tina Brown whose husband worked for some 22 years in a business firm who had we ekly or monthly ded ucted from his earnings, a premium that, no doub t, was part of a negotiating package of a wage agreement, part of his conditions of work, that sug gested he had certain protection, certain benefits accruing to him if he in fact made these contributio ns. He made those contributions in good faith. In fact, they were deduc ted fro m his payroll cheq ue weekly or monthly.

I don't impugn any fraudu lant intent, but the fact of the matter is from the emplo yee's point of view, those payments were made in good faith. I su ppose had the company decided at some point, even dur ing the point in time when financial difficul­ ties were lo oming on their horizon, said, hey, we can't afford this fringe benefit any more. That portion of the money could have been left with the emplo yee's earn­ ings and he could have bought himself a private insu­ rance scheme with that, I suppose, or made a contri­ bution to that.

My concern here really is the departme nt's attitude in this regard and finally, whether or not the Attorney­ Gener al can at this point in time, give me any advice with respect to this particular situation and the widow involved . HON. R. PENNER: I share those sentiments and I'm very sym pathetic to the point of view that the member is raising.

It points up a weakness in the law, not I think in the criminal law but in the law with respect to the way in which we su pervise firms, su pervise coll ec­ tions of this kind, provide for insuring in a bonding kind of way, whether it's money that is paid to a travel agent or money that is deduc ted at sou rce for pension benefits. Cert ainly, I think that is something we are going to have to look at very very seriously when we look at our pension leg islation. Whether or not anything can be done in the instant case, I don't know.

All I can say is that I haven't had a chance to read the full report, but I want to assure the member that if there is anything that can be done, that will be sugg ested. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, can the Minister indi­ cate whether or not, in his or his department's review of the situation, how many months or at what particu­ lar time the company failed to forward the col lected monies to the insu rance company involved? Was it one month, or several months, or did the review that the RCMP undertook in this case not reveal that this was perhaps - of what dur ation?

Was the company making these payroll deduc tions for four or five months, six months, and not forward ing them on to the appropriate agency? 2714 HON. R. PENNER: I am afraid that I don't have the information that the member asks for to hand. My impression is - but I will do more than rely on impres­ sion, I will try to have that information for tomorrow - that it's more than a month. It is more like, I think, a period of four months. My impression is that it was from September to Decem ber. Whether I'm right on that, don't ask me to bet - I bet only in the privacy of my own home where it's legal.

But I will find out. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Honour able Minister for his answers. I will leave him with this comment. I am not particul arly impressed with his concern or his gover nment's concern about the ordi­ nary work ing man or, indeed, the widows of work ing men that happen to die whil e on the job, having comp­ lied with all the rule s as they under stood them, ha ving made their contributions through various plans and his concern and his diligence in using prosecutorial discretion in this instance. HON. R.

PENNER: I can only say that I regret to have failed to impress the Memb er for Lakeside ; I tried so hard. But I would point out that even if there had been a recommendation for a criminal prosecution, that would not restore the widow to her benefits; that had the previous govern ment taken whatever opportuni­ ties it might have had to strengthen pension legisla ­ tion, it might not have happened. So we perhaps both have a cross to bear. MR. H. ENNS: Mr .

Chairman, I was prepared to let it lie, but then you see, I never ran in an ele ction where I gu aranteed the people of Man itoba that there would be no companies going bankrupt, into receivership and none of this would have happened. He did, you see, and that of cour se is the difference. HON. R. PENNER: I think that we are both content to let it lie. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: I will defer to the Honour able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Ch airman, perhap s the Attorney-General would care to have Legis lative Cou nsel review this matter. I don't profess to be an expert on insurance law, but it seems to me that there

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 is a situation where, upon cancella tion of a group insu rance pol icy or at least when a member leaves a group insu rance plan, that there is the right of that person to convert the insurance coverage under the group insu rance policy, into an individual policy. Perhaps he should look at it from the insur ance law aspect. I'm not sur e whether there is any right there under existing legisl ation, perhaps, it's doubt ful.

But perhaps there should be an obligation upon the insu­ rance company where there is a group life insurance policy with an employer, not to be all owed to cancel the pol icy without first notifying the insured under the group policy so that they have the opportunity at least, to convert if they wish, the group life insurance pol icy into an individual policy. When we have an incident like this where the individu al insured was of an advanced age, we know the possibilities and difficul­ ties that people have of obt aining life insur ance cov­ erage later on in life.

So it woul d seem to me that that's the sort of change in the law that perhaps should be looked at to req uire the life insurance company in those situations to give notice to the insured so that they have the right to convert their group life coverage to an individu al pol­ icy of coverage.

I wonder if the Minister would under­ take to have it reviewed by Leg islative Cou nsel from that particular aspect, at least if not to provide some assistance in this case, at least to ensur e that it doesn't happen again, particularly when we see the number of bankru ptcies, etc., and the difficulties that many employers are having at this particular stage. Hope­ fully, it is not happening in other instances out there at the present time where employers that don't have the cash flow to make those particular payments and group life policies are lapsing. HON. R. PENNER: I thank the member for that sug­ gestion.

I will certainly have Legis lative Couns el take a look at that possibility. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr . Chairman, I too, share the concern that's been expressed on this que stion. I, not being familiar with all the details on the matter, wanted to raise both the matters raised by the Member for St. Nor bert with regard to the law and examine that. But also, because of the really exceptional cir­ cu mstances in this case, I'm wondering if there is any leverage either throu gh the Sup erintendent of Insu­ rance or the govern ment itself in some way with the insurance company.

I realize that it would be extraor­ dinary but under the circumstances, I woul dn't feel comfortable ju st leaving this for the gove rnment to remedy in terms of a leg islative amend ment, but some way in which redress can be found for this particular widow. I have no idea what those avenues might be, but certainly the Sup erintendent of Insur ance might be a place to start. HON. R. PENNER: Wel l, I think the qu estion can cer­ tainly be referred the Su perintendent of In sur ance.

It 's my impression, an impression arising from the one or two months in which I was the Minister responsible for the Su perintendent of In sur ance that's since been transferred appropriately to the Minister for Consu- 2715 mer and Corporate Affairs, that our legisla tion pro­ tecting policy holders generally, is too weak. I thank the member for raising the point as I do the Member for St. Nor bert. Ther e is weakness in our legisl ation.

I have the impression, but I coul dn't name the companies, that there were some occu rences in the last two years in which the companies came in to sell some supplem entary automobile insurance at ba rgain basement rates but in fact, at rates which coul dn't sus tain the operation and they didn't go into ba nkru ptcy, they simply closed up shop and went away leaving some policy holder s hol ding the bag -(I nterjection)- No. No. Autopac does fine, thank yo u. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b)

(1) Salaries - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. I want to go back to the original que stion that was raised. I think the qu estion that was raised was where a party, throu gh an agreement, had been auth­ orized to collect fund s from employees on their behalf and then submit them to the third party that was carry­ ing the insu rance, or the third party that was the recip­ ient of those fu nds. I want to ask the Attorney -Gener al a very simple que stion and it probably deals from some of my own experience.

If I, in my own busine ss, hire a profes­ sional person to look after my affairs and to ded uct funds or to work out my income tax in such a way that at the end of the year I am told by that professional to pay X nu mber of dollars to the Federal Treasur y or, indeed, I may be told that I do not have to pay any, and the Federal Treasury in their collective wisdom, decides that it is probably not a correct manner in doing busi ness, is the Attorney-General tel ling me that I will not be prosecuted because of accepting the professional advice of employees that I have paid good money to and that I am immune from prosecu­ tion because of their collective wisdom or actions?

HON. R. PENNER: No, I'm not telling you that at all. There are in the criminal law, crime s that are cal led abso lu te liability and I'll gi ve an exam ple in a moment - crimes of strict liab ility and crimes requir­ ing the proof of mens rea, a gu ilty mind. Ma ny regula ­ tory offenses, and any legisla tive body within its jur is­ diction can create such offenses, are crimes of absolute liabil ity. A simple example is overpa rking. It doesn't matter what led to the fact of overpa rking.

You can say that I had every intention of be ing there within the hour but a rabid dog bit me and I had to be rushe d to Gen eral Hospital to get my first rabies shot, it doesn't matter. Overpark ing is overpa rking with the exception of some rare defenses calle d overpow ering physical force that don't enter into the picture.

Most regulatory offenses, and the requirement to remit income tax deduc tion is one such reg ula tory offense, are what are calle d crimes of strict liab ility - I' m not char ging anyth ing for this, not a penny - are cal le d crimes of strict liabil ity and that is, the Crown has to prove the fact but doesn't have to prove a guil ty state of mind. Fraud, one of the more serious criminal charges, requires proof of both the fact and the gu ilty state of mind. That's the difference and I hope that

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 explains it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr . Chairman, in my own particular case it was not my intention to attempt to defraud govern ment. In fact, the reverse was true . I was hiring profess ional advice to tell me exactly how much money I owed them. If they told me I owed them nothing, am I to ignore that professional advice that they gave me, that I paid good money for? HON. R. PENNER: You see, there's a principle in criminal law un like that of civil law, that is, that the principle of what is cal led vicarious liabil ities does not pertain.

Vicarious liab ility means that in certain instances, rare instances in criminal law, an employer is liable for the actions of an employee. That is gener­ ally true in civil actions. If I am an employer, and an employee in the course of carrying out his or her du ties runs over so meone, I can be sued, civill y. But if there were, in fact, to be a criminal charge arising out of the action of the dr iver in the same circu mstances, only the dr iver cou ld be charged criminally, I cou ld not.

So the principle of what is cal led vicarious liability does not apply in criminal law except in those instan­ ces of what are cal led strict liabil ity, wher e it is possi­ ble, particulary in licensing offenses for the employer or licence holder to be char ged for the failur e of the employee. A cla ssic example is the holder of a liqu or license. It doesn't matter that he didn't know tf'lat the bartender was serving und erage, or too much, or too little, the holder of the license will still be charged because it's that particular kind of crime. MR. H. GRAHAM: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, to carry it a little fur ther - and I realize I shou ldn' t be ask ing the Attorney-General for a legal opinion - but if I were charged in the particular case I refer to, if I was charged with attempted frau d, there may be a good case to be made to go to court where I cou ld prove I had no intention of defr auding. Bu t if I was charged with withold ing payment, I wouldn 't have a leg to stand on. Is this a case of wher e probably the wrong charge has been investigated? HON. R.

PENNER: To the best of my knowle dge and bel ief, had the ded uctions not remitted been income tax, the employer cou ld have been charged without qu estion. But wher e the ded uctions in this case were not deduc tions of that kind but the pension deduc ­ tions, there is the weakness in the law. Tha t is, there is no statutory du ty in our pension leg islation on the employer to be responsible, qua employer, whether it's a corporation or a proprietors hip to remit, there­ fore the onl y available charge would have been a crim­ inal charge of fraud and the evidence wasn't there. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b)

(1) Salari es-pass; 2.( b)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass. The Me mber for St. Nor bert. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister explain the increase in Other Expenditu res? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, the increase in Other Expen­ ditures in 2.(b)(2) is made up as follows: The principal ones are, there are a number of small ones, but I will give the thr ee largest ones that accounted for the increase in Othe r Expenditur es, from $802,000 to $1 . 7 million. There was an increase finally given to court repor­ ters and negotiated for a fee increase, and the amount of the increase there was 33.3.

Ther e was an increase in witness expenses of 10 7.2 with respect to that; Win­ nipeg Police in reviewing their proced ure of billing found that approximately 75 percent of police officers attending court whil e on du ty were not reporting their attendance and here is a case where better systems caught up with us. Once corrected, it has resulted in an increased cost to the province of anywhere between $4,000 and $6,500 a month more than what is antici­ pated in '81 -82. Witness fees, there was also an increase in vol ume, an increase in cost of meals totalling abo ut $42,0 00.00.

Ther e is increased travel costs of 15 .8; a general increase in price is 16 .4; and this way, in a sense, you al most get nickle-and-dimed to death. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b) (2 ) - the Me mber for Spr ingfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: I am somewhat hesitant to raise this, Mr. Chairman, but I heard ... HON. R. PENNER: You should have obeyed yo ur first instincts. MR. A. ANSTETT: I realize that. Bu t I heard a figur e, as did the Me mber for Virden who commented at this end of the table as well, that 33.3 percent sounds like a very substantial raise for Court Reporters. HON. H. PENNER: No, no, 33,300, total cost. MR. A.

ANSTETT: Thank yo u, Mr . Chairman. 2716 MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b) (2) -pass. Resol ution No. 19 . RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $4,358, 10 0 for the Attorney­ General for Legal Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. No. 3. Boards and Comm issions. 3.(

a) Manitoba Law Reform Commission: 3.(a)

(1) Salarie s-pass. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Attorney-General can indicate whether he has, since assu ming office, referred any matters to the Law Reform Comm ission for a report? HON. R. PENNER: No, I haven't referred any new matters for report. The Law Reform Commission has a very full plate, and there are three things that they are doing.

The study on fusion being one; the study on administrative law and ad ministrative law remedies is another that. in my view have pretty high priority, and in reviewing approximately 12 active items that the Law Reform Commission has presently under study, it is qu ite clear that we are understaffed. In fact, the Law Reform Co mmission had asked for an additional SMY in the original asking Bu dget, and in an excess of zeal cut them back to half. I may say qu ite frankly, with some regret now because the work

is really demanding, I haven't referred any new pro­ ject. What I have done in discussing the list with the Chairperson of the Law Reform Comm ission, Mr. Edwards, is sugge sted to him that in my view the fusion project, the ad ministrative law project and The Dower Act project were three that had some priority. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr . Chairman, I have said it before and I will say it again, I think the Prov ince of Manitoba is fortunate to have the former Dean of the Law School, Mr . Edwards, take the Chairmanship of the Man itoba Law Reform Commission.

I wonder if the Attorney-General has any concerns about the structu re of the Commission or is contemplating any changes in the structure of the Comm ission, the members, other than the Chairman be ing part-time. HON. R. PENNER: I want to be careful in giving this answer, simply to indicate I haven't come to any con­ clusion, nor do I have any preconceived notion.

Ther e may be an arg ument given the limited bud get and limited resources, there may be an arg ument that seven, which is the size of the Commission, may be too large; that a good working commission could be five; and the money that might be saved I think we pay each part-time commissioner $7,500 a year - would al most pay for another half-time Research Officer. So it is those kinds of considerations, but change in structu re, or responsibility, or statutory framework, no. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Deal ing with the activities of the Law Reform Com mission, could the Attorney-General indicate what percentage of the work performed by the Law Reform Commission is referred by the Att orne y- Gen eral , and wha t percentage is self-gener ated? HON. R. PENNER: No, I am afraid I cou ldn't do that because, as I ju st answered, I haven't yet referred anything myself to the Law Reform Com mission, so that what it has now under review and study is matters which originated either with the former Attorney­ Gener al or with the Comm ission.

My understanding is that it is some of each, but what the proportions are I don't know. It may be that the Member for St. Norbert wou ld have a better idea than I have because, as I say, I haven't sent anything forward for reference. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's 3.(a)

(1) Sala ries-pass; 3.(a){2) Other Expenditures-pass; 3.(

b) Manitoba Hu man Rights Com mission: 3.(b){1 ) Salaries. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I don't object to a new government naming and replacing boards and commissions. I think that is their privilege if they wish to exercise it. I think some of the criticism we received in gove rnment for replacement of boards and com­ missions was uncal led for. But with respect to the Hu man Righ ts Comm ission, I do want to issue a con­ cern to the Attorney -General.

In reviewing the list of appointees to the Comm ission, without criticizing any individual member, there does seem to me to be a lack 25 May, 1982 of anyone who has any identification with any employer group. The work of the Hum an Rights Commission, as the Attorney-General will probably be aware, has a great impact on employers particu­ larly. It se ems to me the Hum an Rights Com mission for some time was cons idering benefits plans and things of that natur e and there is certainly a need, when considering matters like that, to fully consult employer groups.

I wo nder if the Attorney-General has any comment to make on that particular aspect of the responsibility of the Hu man Rights Com mission. HON. R. PENNER: It's my recollection that when the former Hu man Rights Commission, that is, the Hu man Rights Co mmission as formerly constituted, was con­ sidering - I believe it's

Section 7 of the Act dealing with the qu estion of pension plans and the extent to which it woul d be legal, that is not an infringement of The Hu man Rights Act for a pension plan to make certain actuarial differentiations based on assumptions about life expectancy of females over males and things of that kind - that the Hu man Rights Co mmission as formerly constituted received a lot of briefs from experts and from employer grou ps.

I think that's the way really these Comm issions should fu nction, that when they come to a particular area, if they are not suf ficiently represented within its own com position, because it is difficult to really represent every consti­ tue ncy in a relatively small board or commission, that it ough t to consult. It holds hearings; it welcomes briefs; it receives subm issions and the present Com­ mission or the Commission since it has been reconsti­ tuted, has not yet gone into the que stion of - it's Sec­ tion 7 isn't it, of the Act -

Section 7.2 is the

section which indeed deals with the que stion of the content of employee benefit plans and so on. If you will ju st bear with me. It is coming up for review but it hasn't been looked at by the Commission yet. 2717 MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr . Chairman, as I say, I belie ve it is the government's right to replace members on boards and co mmissions if they so want to and the gove rnment will have to be responsible for their actions. I belie ve there is an area here that is some­ what lack ing, at least as it pertains to representation on the Com mission.

The Attorney-General has indicated in qu estion period that Mr . Rothstein's report on Man datory Retirement will not be dealt with at this Session of the Legisla tur e; that it is apparently being considered by a subco mmittee of the Governm ent's Caucus and Cabinet. I wonder if the Attorney-General has any­ thing to add to that information he suppli ed to the House during que stion period. HON. R. PENNER: No, I haven't, other than the inten­ tion is to util ize such time as may be available between Sessions to do a thorou gh study of the Rothstein report. It seems like a very wel l researched docu ment. Mr.

Rothst ein, I think, took expert counsel on qu es­ tions relating to mandatory retirement. We would want to look at his recommendations from a nu mber of perspectives and I think it woul d be a mistake to rush into legis lation one way or another in an area as sensitive, as complex, as the qu estion of retirement is and its relationship to pension benefits.

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 I think we are likely moving to a time when, for a whole number of reasons, the changes in demo­ graphy, the age spectrum in our society, changes in work expectations and habits, where flexible retire­ ment and flexible retirement plans are really going to be the order of the day, half-time retirements at 55 with full actuarial benefits available on the basis of certain payins and payouts and things of that kind. I think that we would not want, nor wou ld the Member for St.

Nor bert want us, or any gove rnment he might be associated with, to short-change anyone on pen­ sion benefits and retirement, the two being closely related. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, is the Attorney­ General working towards an objective of bringing forward legis lation at the next Session of the Legis la­ ture, or does he not wish to commit himself at this stage? HON. R.

PENNER: I think I can commit myself to this extent, that it's not sole ly, of course, within my ju ris­ diction or my decision. but it would be my hope that there is pension legis lation that can be br ought for­ ward before the end of the next Session. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (b)

(1) Salari es-pass - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Attorney- General the same qu estion I asked him about the Law Reform Com mission. What percentage of the activities of the Huma n Rights Co mmission are matters referred by the Attorney­ General, and what percentage is self-gener ated? HON. R. PENNER: I would think that it is about 95 to 5, that is, about 95 percent of the activities of the Hum an Rights Commission are self-gen erated in the sense that it is a result of people coming in and com­ plaints.

I have referred two, three matters that have come to me by way of corresponde nce, or by way of particular points. One was the alle gation about racial discrimination between students in the schools. A couple of references that have come in from other Ministers or ML As, complaints raised by constituents. So that figur e, based on my own experience, is right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: No, that's all. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (b)

(1) Salari es-pass. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Attorney­ Gen eral asked the Hu man Rights Comm ission to develop a plan of preventive action, etc., to promote improved race relations, has the Hu man Rights Com­ mission come forward with that plan? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, a prel iminary report, in fact, will be available by the end of this week from the Hu man Rights Co mmission and it's a plan, a projected plan for various kinds of educational initiatives to take place within and related to the school syste m. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b )

(1) Salar ies-pass; 3. (b)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass. 3.(

c) Canada-Manitoba Criminal Injur ies Compen­ sation Board, Recoverable from Canada. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, when the Annual Report for the board came out there was a newspaper report to the effect that many victims of crime are not applying for cash benefits from the Criminal Injur ies Compensation Board because they have never heard of the agency, accord ing to Board Assistant Reg istrar Ab Petersen. Mr. Chairman, I bel ieve that this is good program.

I attempted to encou rage victim assistance programs and crime prevention programs and I think there has been a bit of a swing in that particular direc­ tion to apply more of the resources that are spent in the criminal jus tice system on assisting the victims of crime and helping witnesses, etc., and in crime prev­ ention. It see ms to me, Mr .

Chairman, in view of this type of statement, that there should be some consid­ eration given in a simple form, without an elaborate employee structure, to ensure that victims of crime are aware of the possible benefits that they can receive from the Criminal Inju ries Com pensation Board. If the Minister has not had occasion to examine that aspect of the operation of the Board, I wonder if he would care to agree to ask the Board to review that problem that apparently exists, that many victims of crime are not aware of the benefits that are available?

I think that is a particular situation that the Minister and the Me mbers of this Leg islatur e wou ld like to see occur, to see people, who are the unfortu nate victims of crime, available of the possible benefits that they can receive. 2718 HON. R. PENNER: The Member has touched on a very good point and, again, there is a general aspect and a specific aspect.

The general aspect is the prob­ lem of communicating information about programs to those who need them most, and it's gener al ly the case that persons who need and can benefit by shel ter programs, and CRISP and SAFER and victim assis­ tance type programs, are the ones who are not reached effectively by the printed word. There are a large number of people in society, some of them are recent immigrants, some of them are not that familiar with the use of the printed word, to try and advertise, if one were to use advertisement, on the media is too expensive.

That's why I indicated earlier this year that one of the things that I'm look ing at is a system similar to what is called the Citizens Advice Bur eaus in Eng ­ land, manned essentially by volun teers with not expensive operations, where you have sort of store­ front operations, where people in a community, in a neighbourh ood, might drop in for advice about their rights, du ties, privileges and their eligibil ity for pro­ gr ams. That's jus t a general comment.

Specifically, it's our hope that the Victim Assistance Project to which I referred earlier, will play some role when it comes to couns elling victims, as it is doing, of making sur e that they know about their eligibil ity under the Com pensation Program, the Crime Com­ pensation Prog ram. The Victim Assistance Project is something that we're keeping under very close scrut­ iny and evaluation, hope to be able to extend it for that

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 reason, among others. There is a bro chur e about the progam and it's the kind of broc hur e that you might see in a law office or in a Legal Aid office, but that's not really reaching the publ ic. If you were to try general mailings it would be a shotg un approach, the results of which woul d not be warranted by the expense. Ther e is a problem there, I appreciate, and it's my hope that we can do something about it along the lines indicated. Primarily, I think the first resul ts will be achieved through the Victim Assis­ tance Project. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, ju st one other aspect under this item. My underst anding of the com­ pensation to victims is that they rule out any sort of general dama ges for victims of rape or attempted rape. There is no damage for the trauma caused by such an occurrence, really the life-long mental or psychiatric damage that is caused in many instances. I belie ve there may be a few ju risdictions who provide in their legisla tion, for a lump sum form of compensa­ tion for those types of crimes. I wonder if the Attorney­ Gener al is giving any consideration to introducing that type of compensation for those incidents. HON. R.

PENNER: The only exclu sion with which I'm familiar is dama ge that is not of a bod ily injur y type: property damage is not covered by the program but anything else is and, I belie ve, in fact I'm certain, that there has been instances of compensation to victims of rape where there has been bo dily injury suf fered; I'm sure that is right. Now, it may be that the Member for St. Nor bert is raising the que stion of whether there is compensation for psychological trau ma? MR. G. MERCIER: That's right, that's more the aspect that I'm referring to, Mr. Chairman. HON. R.

PENNER: I understand that it's the psycho­ logical traum a aspect that the member is inquiring abo ut and I' ll try to get more information as to what is encompassed within the award which is given to rape victims; whether, in fact, some al lowance is given for psychological trau ma and I'll come back with the answer on that tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c) -pass. 3.(

d) Manitoba Police Commission, 3.(d)

(1) Salaries. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, it was announc ed at the be ginning of February that the Crime Adv isory Group had

schedule d a meeting and were embarking upon consideration of possible crime prevention pro­ grams and then, on May 14 th, they indicated in another release that a crime prevention program entitled "Project Prevention" - this is sponsored by the Manitoba Society of Criminology - "received strong endorse ment from the Manitoba Gove rnment." I wonder if the Attorney-General could explain the connection between the two groups and are they working together? HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, the first body, the Advis ory Comm ittee to the Minister, was appointed by the former Minister and has been retained by me intact. 2719 The only development there has been the appoint­ ment of Ju dge Du bienski as the person to chair that group . It has been meeting, I und erstand, quite suc ­ cessfully and it will continue to advise. The other group, the one sponsored by the Mani­ toba Ins titute of Criminology, in a sense was spru ng upon me full blown like - who was it, Zeus from the thigh of Dionysius or somebody like that?

In any event, it was pur ely - entirely is the word I'm look ing for - the creature of the Manitoba Institute of Crimi­ nology and it was a carryover from the very su ccessful National Conference on Crime Prevention which took pla ce here a year ago - no, it was last summe r, not qu ite a year ago. Members of the Ins titute, who were particularly enthus ed by the Conference and what they had learned, wanted to carry on that work and launch Project Prevention. As soon as I became aware of Project Prevention - in fact I was calle d upon by Dr.

Bach and John Campbell of the Winnipeg Police who notified me of their plans, I though t they were very good - I discussed with the Manitoba In stitute group the qu estion of the rela tionship it saw between itself and the Attorney-Gener al's advisory group and they very much welcomed any assistance that they could obta in from the advisory group . In fact, at the press conference which was called to launch Project Prev­ ention, Ju dge Du bienski attended to represent the A/G's Advisory group. I expect them to work closely in development of crime prevention programs.

I should add that in the interim I have been in touch with the office of the Sol icitor-General in Ottawa because the Soli citor-General is particula rly keenly interested in crime prevention and real prevention programs, utilizing commu nity based group s and, in fact, has some funds that may be available for pilot projects, imaginative, innovative projects.

I expect to be meeting within the next 1 O days, as a result of that phone call, with officials from the Soli citor-General's department and I hope that all of this work will coa­ lesce into a strong movement invo lving the various eleme nts in the community. The City of Winnipeg Pol ice has its own Crime Prevention Unit headed by Cal Hu ghes and what I am going to attempt to do within the next couple of weeks is bring all of the interested parties together and say, look, let's make sur e there is no overlap.

The River­ borne Group in Fort Rouge has been in contact with the Solic itor-General look ing to the opening of an office to dis seminate information on crime preven­ tion. All of these initiatives are to be encou raged, but we would try to encour age some united efforts on the parts of these various groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(1 )-pass; 3.( d)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 3.(

e) Board of Review: 3.(e)

(1) Salaries-pass; 3. (e)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass. Resolution No. 20, RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $1 ,875, 10 0 for the Attorney-General for Boards and Co mmissions for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of Mar ch, 19 83. No. 4. Land Titles Offices 4.(

a) Salaries - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Ch airman, the Attorn ey­ General indicated there was an additional staff man year. Could he ind icate wh at the fu nction is of

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 that person? HON. R. PENNER: That is on the microfilm prog ram. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate what the actual revenue was for the last fiscal year from the Land Titles Office? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, 6.1 million. MR. G. MERCIER: For the last year? HON. R. PENNER: No, that's, I'm sorry, the total revenue for 19 81 if yo u'll ju st bear with me. The revenue for the year ending Mar ch 31 st, 19 82, for the Land Titles Offices through out the province, was 6 million; the estimate for the year ending Mar ch 31 st, 19 83, is 6.1 million. MR. G.

MERCIER: Did you say what the actual was? My que stion was, what was the actu al revenue for the last fiscal year. HON. R. PENNER: As compared to the estimated? The final figur es are not qu ite in, but the projection we are running now against a 6 million estimate is 5,645,000, very close to the estimated amou nt, down slightly from estimated amou nt, but that's still a pro­ jection. I don't believe at this stage of the game, May 25th, that the final figu res are in. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, ju st one fur ther qu estion, the Attorney-General referred earl ier to computerization.

Can he indicate what the status is of the computerization of the Land Titles Office records? HON. R. PENNER: As I indicated, there is an exten­ sive plan for computerizing and for microfilming, ju st separa ting those two. Were you as king about microfilm ing? MR. G. MERCIER: No, computerization. HON. R. PENNER: The first phase of that will deal with the Gen eral Reg ister. The General Reg ister as you know is the Reg ister than contains all registra­ tions of jud gme nts and liens and things of that kind. The difficu lty with that, as done manuall y, is that it is very slow, very inaccu rate.

Lapses are not dealt with, you get a manual read out which contains every varia­ tion of a given person's name, somebody who's a would-be registrant of a docu ment. If it has to go throu gh the general register system it will be rejected, as things now are, in any one of a variety of circum­ stances. Then the person has to rush down to his or her lawyer's office and sign in an affidavit that they're not the particular John Smith that got themselves involved with Beneficial Finance 10 years ago. This is costly to the person seeking to have a docu ment regis­ tered, a conveyance, costly to the system.

So that's why the first stage of computerization was aimed at the General Reg istry. MR. G. MERCIER: It is not the intention of the Attorney-General to do away with the Ge neral Regis­ try, is it? HON. R. PENNER: No, not at alL MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(

a) Salaries. I'm sorry, the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I would like to solicit the Attorney -Gene ral's support in a program that's vital fu nction within his department is somewhat oversha­ dowed, not jus t these days, but in the past decade or so, I su ppose. That is to give some su pport, some added resou rces to the restoration of monuments, su rveys, generally through out the Province of Man itoba. Mr . Chairman, I speak particularly as a rur al member where su rveying costs fluc tuate wildl y.

Th ere are, indeed, incidents on record where the costs of sur vey­ ing a subdivision, or jus t to get the necessary su rvey­ ing done, exceed the cost of the property in qu estion. Mr . Chairman, it's not something that I lay at this Minister's doorstep. It 's something though, that I can report to him and tell him that I had been work ing with the previous Attorney- General, and it is a combina­ tion of responsibility shared with his colleague, the Minister of Natur al Resou rces, but essentially the responsibil ity of the Land Titles Office falls in the Attorney-General's department.

But I want to indi­ cate to him how serious the negle ct is. Those su rvey costs are rapidly reaching a point wher e, partly because of neglect over the years, partly because of the kind of farm ing practices now in vogue, large eq uipment has destroyed some of the markers, some of the monuments. To cite some examples, su rveyors will qu ote such wide-r anging figur es when asked to come out to sur ­ vey a simple five-acre building site lot in ru ral Mani­ toba that can fluc tuate from $600-$700 to $6,000, depen ding on how far they have to go back to find the nearest monu ment or nearest marker.

You know, I think there is an additional reason perhaps why, par­ ticularly at this time is an appropriate time for governments to take a harder look at it. The su rveyors of Manitoba have petitioned governments, my gov­ ernment when it was my privilege and possibly your­ self as well, in assu ming office, about the lack of work in the province, not as muc h deve lop mental work tak­ ing place here and the actual fact of los ing su rveyors to other ju risdictions that it would be a timely move on the part of gove rnment to considerably step up their work in this regard.

It's been indicated to me at least that, while it's not something that can be corrected overn ight and nobody is suggesting that, but a some­ what stepped-up program spaced over the next 1 O years, that the gove rnment would under take, would help bring this situation back into some semblance of order. 2720 The cost involved should not be overlooked and people are, and have, and are continuing to migrate out of the city and, by the way, as a rur al member I welcome that.

We have decried loss of popula tion in ru ral Man itoba, lo these many years, and I welcome the infusion of new people into the smal ler com muni­ ties through out ru ral Manitoba but they are faced very often with totally unexpected costs in getting title to their land. As part of getting the title to the land it often involves a su rvey, often involves subdi vison where subdivision is possible under the various planning

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 schemes that are in effect throug hout the province. It seems to me this variation in cost is something that I find very difficult to explain to my constituents. If a constituent happens to be lucky and have all his marker s in order he gets away with a subdivision and conseq uent su rvey costs at pretty acceptable figures, $600, $700, $800 per lot. Then another constituent will undertake the same situation and can face $5,000, $6,0 00, $7,000 su rvey costs per lot when the lots are selling for $5,000 in rur al Ma nitoba.

I feel it's incum­ bent upon me at least to raise it to your attention, Mr . Minister. It doesn't qu ite have the opportunity of shar­ ing the headlines with some of your other responsibili­ ties but nonetheless is one of those bread-and-butter things that you, Sir, are responsible for and as I said, solicit your su pport in paying attention to this area. HON. R. PENNER: Do you kno w that if it wasn't for my abhorrence of mosq uitoes, Manitoba would have had another su rveyor to add to its ranks. I am very keenly sensitive of this.

I was trained as a su rveyor in the army; I came back thinking, what a wonder ful career. Then I was seduced by the gl itter of English literature and philosophy, never to look at a transit again, or a theodolite for that matter. Let me ju st go back a step. The point raised by the member is an excellent one. The su rvey fabric in the Province of Man itoba, if I can call it that, is in a depl or­ able state and it does have to be restored, and it's only by its restorat ion that there can be some uniform ity in su rvey costs, and some cutback in the amount be ing charged.

I appreciate that it wou ld be difficult to explain variance in costs. You know, they're much luckier in a way - not theolo gically but for su rvey reasons - in Eur ope where they have so many more chur ch spires, and the chur ch spires are the points of reference in Eu ropean su rvey systems. We haven't got enough chur ch spires but it's more expensive to build chu rches than to restore the su rvey fabric, so we're leaving the chu rches and we're going to the - (I nterjection)- only those that have got rabbis and nuns in the same buil ding.

The allo cation last year to the Special Sur vey Pro­ gram was $1 50,000; we've increased that by $50,000 this year to $200,000.00. I would hope that we're in a position to put in a like increase next year. In fact, within the last week I' ve signed 28 contracts with sur ­ veyors to continue the Rur al Su rvey Program. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I welcome that informa­ tion from the Minister. Without being presumptuous, may I offer him ju st one further little bit of advice?

As a former Minister of Natu ral Resou rces I would hope that he not succu mb, in arou nd the Cabinet table, that all the sur veying has to be done by in-ho use staff within the Department of Natur al Resou rces. There are a lot of good su rveyors and an active Man itoba Sur veyors' Association in Man itoba that is looking for this work.

It is the kind of work that, in my judgme nt, can ideally be contracted for by governm ent as it's required, not necessarily have to be added to perman­ ent in-ho use staff, and I encou rage the Minister as he has al ready sug gested by the information that he ju st gave me, that he is actively signing contracts for these services to be completed. 2721 HON. R. PENNER: All with private su rveyors and, in fact, I expect that the whole 200,000 will be spent in that way. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

On the topic of special su rveys, do you have a list of requests for special sur veys in different towns, villages, parts of rur al Man itoba? HON. R. PENNER: The way in which it is tracked as it comes into the examiner's sur veys, I see really the end prod uct of a system. All I really see, qu ite frankly, comes before me, 28 files in the instant case with 28 contracts. I look at the contracts; I look at the attached maps; everyt hing seemingly in order, I sign the con­ tracts on behalf of the province.

But I don't receive first instance requests from rur al municipalities or government districts; it doesn't work that way. MR. D. ORCHARD: Wel l, I su ppose the Land Titles Office would identify the needs for the special sur ­ veys, and I know very clo se to home there has been at least - well, I would gue ss in the last three years or so ­ at least a half -dozen in some of the villages south of Winkler, in Manitou, Carman, Stephenfield area.

My only qu estion was, is that something that as land gets more val uable people are more sensitive to the estab­ lishment of the bou ndaries and are there going to be increasing reque sts for verification of land monu­ ments? Second qu estion, is that always the responsi­ bility of gove rnment to und ertake a special su rvey where a boundary is in dispute? HON. R. PENNER: In a sense, we are responding to demand in the first instance, and the Land Titles Office then sets priorities.

The demand comes in and it looks at its records in terms of bench marks and the plans of sur vey of showing where the bench marks are, and what the date of the su rvey was, and who the su rveyor was, and it goes back and looks at it and then responds to the demand plus the information to come up with a list of priority, but we are, qu ite frankly, ju st scratching the su rface. If we were to attempt the res­ urveying of the whole province and then simply did it on some kind of a shotgun bas is we coul dn't really meet the cost in any given year or come anywhere near it.

We might be missing where the demand is heaviest. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, I can appreciate that proba­ bly there is a pretty subst antial demand, particularly for renewal of bou ndary marker s that may have been establ ished upwards of 10 0 years ago. Ju st pick a scenario where a boun dary between two qu arter sections of farmland, not residential lots in this case but ju st farml and, is in dispute between the two landown ers.

Does that entail a legitimate request by govern ment to undertake a su rvey to establish the monu ments in that case, or is that dealt with as a civil matter between two private individua ls where they have to pay for the sur veying cost to establish where the monu ments are? HON. R. PENNER: More likly the latter, that where

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 there is a genuine dispute between adjoining lan­ downers that can't be resolved, I su ppose what wou ld happen in that case that one of them at least would retain the services of a su rveyor on a private basis. come up with a plan and introduce it. if necessary. into court. The type of demand that we are respond ing to is more likely the situation in which there is a need because of sales for definition of bo undaries that are somewhat fuzzy because of the state of the su rvey and the state of the records. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, in the scenario that the Attorney-General painted where, let's say, one indi­ vidual hired a land su rveyor to establ ish a bo und ary on a half -mile line or whatever between two adjacent packages of farmland, if that matter was sent to the court and un resolved. would that then trigger. say. a formal su rvey fu nded under your Special Su rveys Project? HON. R. PENNER: Not likely, an individual court case like that would not be the thing that triggered a special su rvey. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well . there is one circumstance at home which involves two private landowners - and I don't know all the details so I am not at liberty to speak with any kind of information on it - but it seems as if they have gone those kinds of routes. They have dis ­ puted where the bo undar y line between the two farm properties are; they have hired or retained a su rveyor and that particular establishme nt of a boundary line has been disputed by one party. I don't believe it has been resolved in the cou rts. and quite frankly, those two parties are at a loss right now as to what the next step is.

The one party at least. has invested several thousand, probably $7,000 or $8.000 in trying to estab­ lish that and it has never been resolved. Th at is why I am wondering. at what stage would yo ur department. as an impartial arbrit rator. be prepared or be requir ed, say, to step in and resolve that kind of a dispute. HON. R. PENNER: We don't do that. I think that we could get into great difficulties by stepping in and say ing. all right. we'll do a su rvey to resolve the prob­ lem. Righ tly or wron gl y, we le ave it up to the party to resolve.

I suppose part of the difficult y I have with the example you are using, and this shows how long it is since I' ve really had anything to do with sur veying actual ly. is that in a system like Man itoba's syst em, you know, with the grid and the sections become quar ter sections or half sections. as the case may be, that if people are, in fact. owning a qu arter

section if they get to the north or south half of a qu arter section. I can see that there might be so me prob lem at a given point. But if you are really dealing with the

section and the quar ter. I don't understand why they get into disputes. MR. D. ORCHARD: In this particular one, even the mile road is not in its proper place. and let me assur e yo u, in the description I had of it, it is an unbel ievable set of circu mstances and both parties have spent an awfu l lot of money trying to resolve it. They are at loggerhe ads. because naturally neither one, as I men­ tioned earl ier, with the price of land at a thousand plus an acre, neither one wants to see that boundary moved by as little as 8.25 feet, because on a half mile that represents an acre.

There are fairly big nu mbers involved. and I wondered at what point in time - some were not in hectares out in rur al Man itoba quite yet. So there is no really formalized system where we could call on this area of spending in your department to resolve that. even if the mile road which is govern­ ment road all owances, is apparently in the wrong place. That doesn't even trigger moving in and estab­ lishing the bo und ary markers. HON. R. PENNER: Wel l, if we're talking about a mile road that is the responsibility of government. then in that case. yes.

It must be the road that was su rveyed by that drunk en sur veyor 14 years ago. got into the hooch in the Interlake before they got rid of it. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, this was a drunk en su rveyor back about 90 years ago with the same resu lt. HON. R. PENNER: Sur veyors haven't changed any, they're a pretty bad bunc h. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then maybe I might take the lib­ erty at a later date of discussing this. HON. R. PENNER: Ok ay, thanks. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(

a) Salaries -pass; 4.(

b) Other Expenditu res-pass. Resol ution No. 21.

Be It Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,534,800 for Attorney-General for the Land Titles Office for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of Mar ch, 19 83-pass. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman. ju st a small qu es­ tion. I understand that the Land Titles Office heating system was operating very poorly during the last win­ ter.

Apparently it was operating atrociously and peo­ ple were having to actually wear coats in the Land Titles Office whil e they were wo rking and perhaps I ju st raise it because a few emplo yees mentioned it to me and perhaps the Attorney-General might wish to prod the Minister of Gov ernment Services to solve their problems over there. HON. R. PENNER: It 's our intention to su pply them with coats this winter. Yes, we'll look into it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lu tion No. 21 -pass. No. 5. Law Cour ts (

a) Cour ts Ad ministration: 5.(a)

(1) Sala ries-pass; 5.(a)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 5.(

b) Cou rts of Appeal, Qu een's Bench, County Cou rts and Su rrogate Cour t: 5.(b)

(1) Salarie s-pass; 5(b)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 5.(

c) Provincial Ju dges Cour t: 5.( c) ( 1) Salar ies-pass; 5. (c)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 5.(

d) Court Reporters. 2722 The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, on the que stion of salaries for Cour t Repor ters. could the Minister indi­ cate what proportion of the total revenue accruing to a Cour t Reporter would be salary and what proportion would be commission?

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 HON. R. PENNER: All we set up and report are their salaries. It is true that some. perhaps all, court repor­ ters do some freel ancing and earn money on their own -(I nterjection)- I said perhaps all, yes. Ther e are a few who, I think. don't, we pay them so well; but most do and they do not report their extra income to us and we have no handle on their extra income. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(d )

(1) Salarie s-pass; 5. (d)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 5.(

e) Sher iffs and Bai­ liffs: 5. ( e)( 1) Salaries. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Ch airman, the Atto rney­ Gener al indicated there are two additional staff man years in this area. I assu me two more are Sheriff's Officers and I assu me that's a continuation of the procedure under the RCMP contract where the prov­ ince is to assume more and more. HON. R. PENNER: No. These two are simply in the Escort Program. One is a Sheriff's Officer 2 for the Winnipeg Escort Program and one is also a Sher iff's Officer 2 for the Winnipeg Ju yenile Escort System. MR. G.

MERCIER: Well, perhaps I should know the answer to this que stion, but under the old RCMP con­ tract as I under stood it, there was an ob ligation on the part of the Pro vincial Gove rnment to hire more and more Sheriffs to take some of that workload off the RCMP . Is that not a continuing ob ligation und er the new RCMP contract? HON. R. PENNER: It 's still our aim to complete that program, but we're really getting down to the short strokes on that.

Ther e was no provision made in this year's Estimates for concluding the program but it's certainly something that is an ongoi ng program and I expect we'll be in a position to comple te it within the next year or two. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(e )

(1) Salarie s-pass; 5.(e)

(2) Other Exp enditur es-pass. 5. (

f) Canada/M anitoba Court Comm unicators: 5.(f)

(1) Salaries. The Me mber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the reduction in Expendi­ tures indicate a reduction in Court Commu nicators? HON. R. PENNER: Actua l ly, no. There's an improved method of staffing - and I'll get the details in a moment - that has resulted, in effect, in a saving of $7,500.00.

The improved method of staffing to which I referred is as follows: that instead of having a nu mber of full­ time persons, who are then sent out - you know, instead of a centralized bu reaucracy and you're send­ ing people out and a lot of the time is spent travel ling, travelling costs and paying salaries while travel ling - there are in the affected communities people who are employed on a part-time basis and they're there, they're Johnny or Jane on the spot, as it were, and that's the saving that has been affected in that pro­ gram, but not a reduction in the prog ram. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(f )

(1) Salarie s-pass; 5.(f)

(2) Other Expend itures-pass. 5.(

g) Fatalities In quir ies Act: 5.(g )

(1) Salaries. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, it appears that the province will now have, at least effective Au gus t 1 st, 19 82, a Ch ief Medical Examiner to replace the late Dr. Parker who performed ad mirably in that position for the province. The Estimates only provide for $49,200 for Salar y. Could the Minister indicate the salary for the new - and perhaps that's half a year? HON. R. PENNER: No. MR. G. MERCIER: Could he indicate the salary for the new Chief Medical Examiner? HON. R. PENNER: Yes.

The reason why it's not indi­ cated in Sala ries, that $49,000 does not includ e the cost for the Ch ief Medic al Exam iner. As I indicated earl ier on when I was giving a gl obal overview of the change in staff man years, the arrangement which we now have is an arrangement with the Un iversity of Man itoba. Dr. Marke steyn is employed by the Facu lty of Medicine, Un iversity of Manitoba at $90,000, to head the Pathology Department. The Province of Man itoba buys 80 percent of his services as Chief Medical Examiner.

He is an excell ently qualif ied per­ son so that a full year's cost at that salary is going to cost $72,000, which is a large hunk of money, but in look ing around and look ing at qu al ified candidates, that is in fact what we had to pay to get a person who had the status and the experience to be able to do the forensic examinations; to be able to attain the cred ibil­ ity in court in homicide cases; to satisfy all of the demands that the province has of a Chief Medical Exam iner in cases of unexpected or untoward deaths. 2723 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, I wonder if the Attorney-General could explain a phrase that is used in the Or der-in-Cou ncil which I bel ieve is unu sual. In Paragraph 2 of the Or der-in-C ouncil which the Attorney-General signed indicates that, "Up on the expiration of six months from the effective date of the appointments referred to in Paragraph 1, neither shal l be revoked except for cause." That seems to me to be an unusual provision in an Order-in-C ouncil and in an appointment. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether this was a part of the arrangement made with Dr. Mark etson and whether it is, indeed, unu sual. HON.

R. PENNER: You'r e right, it is unusual. It stems in part from the fact that the doctor is given a faculty appointment with tenure and that, of course, is the contractual provision with the Un iversity of Manitoba and does not directly affect us. But in the negotiations to obtain his services, Dr. Mark etson raised with us the fact that he wou ld have secur ity of tenure as the head of pathology at the University of Manitoba and he wanted so me similar gua rantees or secur ity with the province.

In our negotiations, we said that we cou ldn 't provide for the same secu rity; all we cou ld do is pro­ vide that after a testing period, six months in this case, he could not be discharged except for good cause. In fact, this is not an unfamiliar provision generally. Within our own Civil Service, if one exa mines the provisions of The Civil Service Act and the collective

agreement between the MGE A and the government, after a probationary period persons cannot be dis­ missed except for cause. They may be laid off in cases of financial exigenc y or in cases of redund ancy, but they cannot be dismissed except for cause. So that, in fact, the doctor was not given in his contract any greater security in terms of his position than is given to a civil servant who passes the proba­ tionary period. MR. G. MERCIER: Is that the only instance - this may be a more general qu estion - where the new govern­ ment has used that phraseology in Order-in-Council appointments? HON. R.

PENNER: It is the only provision of which I am aware, yes. In saying that, I am sur e I'm aware of all possibilities and I don't know of any other appoint­ ment like that. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister explain the increase in Other Expenditu res? It 's over $300,000.00. HON. R.

PENNER: Most of the increase is increased professional fees, that is, in addition to the Chief Med­ ical Exami ner, we have a nu mber of medical examin­ ers throughout the prov ince and it's an increase in their fees which are set within the MMA structure, so that when the agreement was finall y conc lu ded with MMA - I believe it was in September was it not, you may remember, Mr . Or char d or Mr . Me rcier - and the fee structure which we now have entered into includ ed a provision which has bump ed into this year's costs that raised the tariff charged by medical examiners. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, ju st one other qu es­ tion on the Chief Medical Examiner. The news release indicated that he would also perform the du ties of Chief Occu pational Me dical Officer under The Work­ place Safety and Health Act. As I und erstand it from a discussion with the Minister, that is to be onl y a tem­ porary responsibility. Is that not correct? HON. R. PENNER: That is correct. MR. G.

MERCIER: That position has been advertised, I bel ieve, for Workplace Safety and Health, so, hope­ full y, if there is to be a Chief Medic al Officer in that field, the Chief Medical Examiner will not have to und ertake that responsibility for any lengthy period of time. HON. R. PENNER: Quite so, although I may say that Dr . Ma rketson, it was his notion; he was very anxious; he has a special interest in the area. But it is our view that the position of Chief Occu pational Health Officer is one that should be a full time position.

As you indicated, the position has been advertised, but by the time the competition closes and interviews take place and someone who is qu alified is able to dissociate himself or herself from some other position, there may be several months that pass by and we are anxious to have someone in place who can fulfil! that func tion in the interim. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(g )

(1) Salari es-pass; 5. (g) (2) 1982 Other Expenditures-pass. Resol ution No. 22, Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $1 3,5 35, 200 for the Attorney-General, Law Courts, for the fiscal year end­ ing the 31s t day of Mar ch, 19 83-pass. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if there is an inclination to have committee rise. I think we'll finish these Estimates on Thu rsday anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, J. Storie: The Co mmittee will come to order. Continuing with the Edu cation Estimates, page 47, Item 4. (h)(1 )-pass.

The Honou rable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I don't know if the Minister wanted to make any remarks with regards to what the Member for N iakwa was referring to. -(I nterjection)­ No, all right. Mr . Chairman, I spoke to the Member for Niakwa, and with all due respect to the member, feel that if the gove rnment is coming up with any funds for sign langua ge that it should be used for the School for the Deaf, and that certainly the Me mbers of the Legisla ­ tur e can afford to take their own time and their spend their own money to learn sign langua ge.

While I rec­ og nize and feel it probably would be a good idea for people that are deaf and use sign langua ge to be able to use that form when they come and are speaking to Members of the Government, I do realize that is prob­ ably good and something that is needed, and possibly something that is being done, but as far as funding members, no. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, I had forgotten wher e we had left off.

I will ju st make one point, and that is we do provide programs that I belie ve are very important and that is for the parents of childr en; we do provide through the School for the Deaf programs to help teach parents. Tha t is very important. I might be able to give the Member for Niakwa information that might be helpful to him, not money, as is often my case, but useful information.

The Kiwanis Centre for the Deaf has programs that they put on at a regular basis, and I can remember being in commu nication with them and hearing that they would be qui te happy to have people come in from outside and simply par­ ticipate in their three or four week prog rams. I am sur e that the cost will be minimal. I will pass on that infor­ mation to them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4. (h)(1 )- pass; 4. (h)( 2) Other Expenditu res-pass; (h)-p ass. 2724 It em 4.(

j) Child Development and Supp ort Servi­ ces: 4. (j)(1 ) Salaries - the Honou rable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Earl ier, I had asked the Minister about the Dia gnostic Supp ort Centre that had been establ ished I bel ieve last year. This was, I think,

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 intended to deal with rur al childr en with learn ing dis­ abilities. Cou ld the Minister tel l us how this is pro­ gres sing and give us any com ments that are pertinent to this? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. As the Member for Tu xedo knows, I think there was a signifi­ cant increase in this progr am area last year for sup­ port for school divisions in a number of categories.

The Diag nostic Supp ort Centre presently has eight staff man years where they have a co-ordinator, a psychologist, three learning special ists. secretary, resident cou nsel lor, institutional su pervisor and it is located at the Manitoba Scho ol for the Deaf. We have a capacity of diagno sing 60 to 75 child ren per year because the program wasn't really in operation for a full year. It takes a little while to gear a program up and get it going. There are about 45 children from many school divisions put through the diagnostic centre this last year.

The other area of diagnosis is the Early Id entifica­ tion Project that is going on in, I believe it is five school divisions presently where we have processed 1, 000 kinder garten childr en and have put them through four stages of examination where we do a rough screen to identify children at risk first. Those that are identified as having some risks are put through a more intensive assessment and there is a third stage where they make a decision based on the additional assessments on who needs intervention or who needs su pport and then there are programs developed.

So I think we will be getting a lot of information about the Early Id entifi­ cation Project. Not only will we be helping the chil­ dren that are going throu gh, but we will be honing our ab ility to find out how to identify them. When we evalu ate. we'll be able to see whether the kids that have been identified at risk and have special help are given supp ort that is helpful to them to go on to the regu lar prog ram. MR. G. FILMON: This early identification is for chil­ dren with lear ning disabil ities and it takes place at what point in their prior to entering the public school syste m? HON. M.

HEMPHI LL: It is kind ergar ten and my und erstanding is that it is actually in the five school divisions at random or they simply beg in look ing at all of the children and in their first sweep, they have certain criteria and certain things they identify that tags a child as possibly be ing at risk.

It is those child­ ren, the rest of them are considered to not have prob­ lems that need either help or additional diagnosis or exa mination, so that it's a random sweep of all the children going into kindergarten in those five school divisions and then identification of those at risk and programs designed to help them. I really believe that what we'll be doing is lea rning how to identify childr en at risk and develop programs to hel p them through this pilot project. MR. G. FILMON: Which are the five divisions that are currently utilizing this program? 2725 HON. M. HEMPHI LL: St.

James, Rhineland, Swan River, Thom pson - when we think of the other, we'll throw it out to yo u. MR. G.

FILMON: Does the department have a posi­ tion with respect to dealing with learn ing disabled childr en as a group, an entity that is segrega ting them and giving them specialized instruction or attempting to mainstream them, having the instru ctors primarily, I su ppose, at the elementary level made capable of deal ing with special needs ch ildren, learning disabled childr en, through an enhancement of their skill s as opposed the segregation of the childr en, taking them out of the mainstream and deal ing with them by virtue of having Special Ed teachers? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr .

Chairman, certainly we would continue to su pport, I think, the direction that began a few years ago, su pport the movement and the activities towards the mainstreaming of childr en, but to do it carefull y and with a lot of thought and support of both the parents, the teachers and the school.

Ther e has been a significant change in attitude, I think, that's interesting, not ju st of the public perhaps, but something that I found very interesting was that in 19 74 when teachers were su rveyed prior to the Bill 54 which said we would begin to mainstream childr en, 90 percent of them said no, that they would not be pre­ pared nor did they think that they cou ld handle handi­ capped childr en in their classroom. In a recent sur vey, 50 percent of the teachers said that they were pre­ pared to and felt they were capable of handling childr en.

So there has been a changed attitude and I think a significant change in resou rces and support that have been made available to teachers, both in terms of professional development and resources from the department. This has changed the attitude, plus expe­ rience has changed the feelings of people, that where we have done it and it has been handled wel l. the children are benefiting and people can see that it isn't the way they thought it might be. The past practice gives others the encou ragement to give it a try.

I think the intregration of childr en demand s a lot of effort and a lot of su pport, that as long as it is done carefull y, it's well thought out and the people are prepared - both the childr en, the teachers and the school - then I think it's the way that we should go. Certainly all of the directions of the department in this area have been to provide support to teachers, specialists and people in the field who are providing services for childr en in the regular school system - a tremendous amoun t of increased su pport and resour­ ces to help them do ju st that. MR. G.

FILM ON: So it's the Minister's feeling that this continued integration into the mainstream will be car­ ried on with. With respect to the early identification and intervention project, are there plans or is there sufficient data available to indicate that it ought to be carried on through out Manitoba and extended to other divisions in the futur e? HON. M. HEMPHILL: The project is ju st com pleting its first year and I am informed by staff that the first information that we are expecting out of the project

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 will be available this fall. I think at that time we will take a very serious look at what it is telling us about both the need and the value of early identification of chil­ dren and we'll be using it, I wou ld think, as one of the significant pieces of information to look at when we are looking at the Educ ational Finance Review for instance. MR. G.

FILMON: It seems to me that there is a fair body of informa tion on this type of thing available and, in fact, I know I had discu ssions years ago with constituents of mine who were involved with the MACLD Centre, who felt that the establish ment of this type of prog ram was perhaps the most important thing that the de partment could get into with respect to establishing proper and adequate means of deal ing with lear ning disabled children, that the early identifi­ cation could solve so many of the problems that occurred later that became very, very difficult to deal with.

Ther efore, it seems to me that this is the corner­ stone of whatever else happens in terms of main­ streaming and being able to adequately deal with children with special needs with respect to learning handicaps. So I wou ld hope that the Minister and her department are able to proceed with the evaluation and before too long announce some expansion of the program. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, I qu ite agree that I don't believe we need a lot of additional studies or information to know that the sooner we find children and identify them and get support into them, the bet­ ter off they are going to be.

What I am sugg esting here is that it's one thing to know that you should do it or that it's important to do it and it's quite another to decide how it's going to be done. So we al ready know, I think, that's important work and using the informa­ tion about how to suc cessfull y, No. 1, identify and 2, develop prog rams for them is something that will be very valua ble to us as a result of this program.

Another thing I might mention related to this is that we will be explori ng in the futur e some areas of co­ operation between the Department of Health and Commu nity Services and the Department of Educ a­ tion because muc h of what we do overlaps. Mu ch of what we do is, we each take a piece of it and if we start co-or dinating it and planning it, I think children and people will be much better off. Early identification is certainly one of the critical most important areas of a need to explore the potential of a co-operative effort between those three departments that I can think of.

Someth ing that was suggested to me through the Advisory Comm ittee on Special Needs, which stu died the special needs - both the existing program and the needs - that I thought was worth exploring is that they thought if we ju st removed so me of the age crite­ ria for the deliv ery of services that we, in fact, do have some people around in the different fields and departments that cou ld provide help and resources, except there are limitations or rigid limits that certain people can only look at certain target popula tions.

Ther e was some feeling that if we were even a little more flexible there that there were staff and resources around that cou ld be used for children in the earl ier years.

So, I think it's important to move - you know, we know that we can identify some at risk children, many of them the day they leave the maternity del ivery roo m, that there is a lot of information from the doc­ tor's report about the process of delivery, in terms of oxygen and all of the measur ements that they're able to take, that often can identify ahead of time that you may have a baby or a child that is going to have some problems and we should be using all that information and getting to the kids as qu ickly as possible. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (j) (1)- pass - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I jus t wanted to go back briefly, Mr. Chairman, asking about the funding for the mul ­ tiply handicapped. I think we discussed it briefly before and the Minister had indicated that the reason there hadn't been an increase in the fundin g was because they were looking at the prog rams. I menti­ oned, in particular, the Autistic Program, which has been ongoi ng and has proved to be very suc cessful and that was a prog ram that didn't get any extra fund ­ ing at this time. I don't think that we can allow this sort of prog ram to fall beh ind. I wonder if the Minister has any comments.

She had suggested we go into it a little bit more thorou ghly at this point in the Estimates. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, I think that the two areas of support to school divisions, low inci­ dence and high incidence funding, that the help for the autistic childr en would be coming in through the low incidence funding which would be available to all school divisions; the basis is $6,000 per child in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(j) (1)- pass Member for Kirkfield Park. the Honou rable MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Wel l, ju st to get back to that though, there was not an increase in this particular funding and that's the point I'm trying to make, that this has been an ongoing - it is a su ccessful prog ram and that it's a need that shouldn' t be overlooked jus t because they want to look at the whole prog ram. There may be new programs coming in, but this par­ ticular program - and there's probably more, I've jus t been using this one as an example, Mr . Chairman -ha s shown that it is a successful program. It is work­ ing and yet the funding this year has stayed exactly the same. 2726 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I accept what the Member for Kirkfield Park is saying, when you put $34 million into a prog ram, there is going to be a consider­ able expansion and, hopefu ll y, a nu mber of very good prog rams coming out as a result of it. We know that there are a lot of good things being done and that we're going to not only continue them but expand them. I think that we have to look at the special needs area, both the good things that are being done, that we want to expand on the holes and we have to do it in total, you know. MR. G.

FILMON: Is this where the $1 .3 million for clinicians was transferred into the ESP?

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, that was 16 (3)(a), but what you may be thinking of is that there was a significant increase in staff in the middle of the year last year as a result of the department expanding its resources available to school divisions. There were 13 clinicians, 3 clerical and I behavioral counsellor that were br ough t in, in the middle of the year, to provide the increased services.

A fair amount of the budge t increase this year is because we have a full year of budg eting for all of those people this year and they were only in for a portion of the year, for half of the year in last year's budge t. MR. G. FILM ON: Somewhere earl ier there was a dis­ cussion of the fact that $1 .3 million for clinicians which had formerly been outside the ESP was now inside the ESP. From what allocation was that taken? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, there was a transfer of $1.3 mill ion from 16 (3)(

e) to 16 (3) (a). This is all within the Educ ational Su pport Program. That was in '81- 82 and it didn't affect '82-83 at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.( j)(1 )- pass; 4. (j) (2) -p ass; (i)-pass. 4. (

k) Ins tructional Me dia Services: 4. (k)

(1) Salaries the Honou rable Member for El mwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, I wanted to make one comment in regard to the Department of Educ ation and that concerns the dropping of a lot of production in terms of the Department of Scho ol Broadcasts which I assume are in this general area of instructional media. In that I particularly want to focus on radio and television because it wasn't that long ago when the Department of School Broadcasts in conj unction with the CBC produ ced a fair number of radio and televi­ sion programs.

It 's now my impression that the department has in effect severed its relationship with the CBC and is cou nting on the importation of pro­ grams from Ontario and other provinces which are still in the busi ness of production. Mr . Chairman, I wanted to put some nu mbers on the record and "to make an appeal to the Minister to con­ sider reversing this policy which was, in effect, stopped a couple of years ago by the Honou rable Keith Cosens when he was Minister. Mr.

Chairman, the schuols in Manitoba have, I think, a reasonable investment in television sets, stands, probably VTR machines and so on and very few programs are now being produced that are heavy on Ma nitoba content. For exam ple on Su nday, I think it was on TV, proba­ bly on CBC, ther e was a reproduction of a program cal le d "The Strongest Man in the World" which was about an old Ukr ainian strong man from a place somewhere in the Dauphin region. I forget the name of it, but it's a pretty small village.

It was a 30-minute film that was, I think, produced through the National Film Board - a very exce ll ent feature and that's been shown a number of times. Ther e's also a new film out that is now being dem­ onstrated in Cannes, France, at the International Film Festival - only an 11- minute film calle d "Ted Baryl­ uk 's Grocery Store." That too, I think, was under the auspices of the National Film Board about a grocery store in Point Doug las, in fact, I gue ss in the Minister's own riding -(I nterjection)- on the street wher e you live. Wel l, that's interesting.

That reminds me of a song - where I have often walke d down before. -(I nter­ jection)- Frank Sinatra, eat yo ur heart out. Mr. Chairman, that film I attempted to see and I went to the Art Gall ery not too long ago, I gu ess about a week ago, and there were so many people there trying to get in to see it that they had to sched ule some additional showings.

So I'm saying I think there is a lot of interest and there certainly are as many topics in Ma nitoba as anywhere else, particularly in the Un ited States, wher e people take interesting little features and items about people and events and produce them and gl amor ize them, and so on. We have all sorts of interesting characters and incidents in Man itoba.

Now what has happened is that the CBC because of, I gue ss, pressures of budge t and so on have cut back on their own programs, and in the Free Press on April 2, they mentioned that they have never paid, for exam ple, more than $25,000 to $30, 000 for 30 minutes of local dramatic prog ramming. They have to pit this against American networks that have bud gets of up to $.5 million of programs. I am not tal king that cla ss, that luxur y class of progr amming. I don't think that school broadcasts ever spent money anywher e near that sort of figure.

In fact, the figure that I have in mind, if I understand it correctly, is $1 00,000.00. If the Minis­ ter of two years ago could have come up with $1 00,000, they could have continued prod ucing pro­ gr ams in conjunction with the CBC for school broad­ casts in regard to the Ma nitoba network in regard to the educational television and radio network.

I am not talking about big commercial operations like you see on TV every night, but the Canadian Radio and Television and Te lecom mun ications Comm ission was told that, for example, by ACTRA, that CBC produced no drama in 19 81 , I gu ess on television in Winnipeg, and only one 30 minute pro­ duc tion in 19 79 and 19 80. So, what are we getting? We are getting from the big network, we are getting a series like Reach for the Top and Hymn Sing and the Medicine Show and the Wes­ trock Hotel. Well, it is very interesting, but not exactly the greatest.

We are getting from CKY the Ray Jauch Show, Winsday Lottery and something called Alt o­ gether Now, a musical variety progr am. Wel l, I don't even know what that is, but you are getting some series that are being put together loca ll y. You are getting a lack or a dearth of ethnic prog ramming. You are getting hardly any drama, and you are getting hardly any work for writers and actors and directors and technicians, etc.

So that is the general picture. 2727 Specifically, to the Minister, in regard to school broadcasts, you had a 40-year-old institution, which I gu ess ba sically bit the du st two years ago, and the reason given was that there were high produc tion costs, and from the CBC's point of view, a better use of broadcast time. Given the use of VTR machines, and given the TV sets, etc. in the classro om, sur ely the second point about the prob lem of scheduling these broadcasts isn't really a problem; namely, that tapes can be prod uced, films can be copied, and progr ams can be delayed within the classroom.

My point to the Minister again, is that apparently the production costs, which the CBC was sub sidizing for years, only requ ired an expenditure of $1 00,000.00.

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 So, Mr . Chairman, I want to appeal to the Minister to reopen and review that whole area, because I think that there are many, many subjects that cou ld be pro­ duc ed for childr en in the educational system about Man itoba subjects. We are not doing enou gh in terms of prod ucing Canadian films in this country.

We are not doing anywhere near what we could in terms of producing Manitoba films in this province, and the danger, as I see it, is that we are getting this tremend­ ous pressure, which always comes from the Un ited States; namely, that there are a tremendous number of films, magazines, television progr ams, textbooks and books that flood over the border. What do we have to counter this? I ask the Minister whether she wou ld look into this qu estion, and see whether or not she could come up with the money, and with a new prog ram to put some­ thing back into the edu cational system that I think we've lost. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, Mr . Ch airman, first of all, I appreciate the point m ade by the Me mber for Elm ­ wood and the interest, because I share a lot of the concerns that he raised about Manitoba content; about using our own people, giving them work, writers and actors; about having access; using creativity; and preparing our own resource materials and not relying on people and materials from outside.

However, I don't think things are as bad as he believes, and maybe I can give him some information, not to sug ­ gest that we won't take this seriously and look at it very seriously in the coming year. We haven't drop ped production; we have dropped a broadcast ing through the CBC, which is ju st -y ou know we are still produc­ ing and we are still distributing - and we're using a lot of people from ACRT A, we are using a lot of our own people in the prod uctions that we are doing. The materials that we produce, we have full access to for distribution.

For instance, if the CBC had copyright, we were not free, if it was developed through them. Am I correct? If we developed it in conj unction with the CBC, we did not have control over access or dis­ tribution, but the materials that we are presently pro­ ducing on our own, we do have access and full control over. We are spend ing most of our time developi ng Manitoba-related programs, and I love this. My staff has advised me that we have developed so me Mani­ toba films of repute. He mentioned one. Ted Barylu k's Gr ocery Store.

I was one of the fortunate 700 to 800 people that jam med the Uk rainian Cul tural Centre to see it the first night, not the Art Galler y night, and I am sur e that there were large nu mbers there. It was a tremendous exa mple of what can be done with crea­ tivity and imagination and not a lot of doll ars, because it was a black slide presentation with the voices be ing put on top. It is ju st a tremendous, tremendous film. I have al ready approached the two yo ung fellows who spent years taking pictu res and devel oping the film and it's possible that it will be available.

We are look­ ing into how to get a hold of it and get copies of it. I should have that information in a couple of weeks. There is no way we want tremendous materials like that developed by our own creative artists which is what I would call them and not made advantage of fully. Cert ainly, the school system is a good place for it. Another one that we have apparently recognized accomplish ment for is called "God Is Not a Fish In spector," by the Interlake auth or, Val gardson and they paid $30,000 for a one-half hour film. Is that a good one? That's a good one, okay. -(l nterjection)­ Oh.

Maybe we'll have a preview of "Local Ted Baryl­ uk 's Grocery Store" and "God Is Not a Fish In spector" for all ML As to enjoy our local grown talent. In terms of nu mbers, last year there were 60 audio programs and this year, it's 45. Ther e were 40 video prog rams developed and this year, it's 55. Now, I want to comment on that because we're down on audio and up on the video and I think that's not so much a change of policy as a change of demand that there is a strong movement into the area of videotape as he sugge sted, that a lot of the school divisions have VTRs and have the equipment.

They seem to be moving more into this field. For instance, in this bud get, one of the only increases for expansion is for videotape and that is both for acq uisition and for prod uction, $51 ,000 additional set aside for that because we recognize that it's an expanding area. So I support the points that he made. I would like to say that I think we have been continuing not as he sug gested, having dropped the whole thing com­ pletely, some changes in relationship and work directly with the CBC, but not in terms of our activity and production. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Me mber for El mwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr .

Chairman, ju st one fur ther com­ ment. The CBC has a tremendous investment in terms of staff and technical eq uipment. They have the know how and they have the technical facilities.

My under ­ standing is that the amoun t of money that was invested by the department was only a fraction of the cost, so that the 10 0,000 was probably equ ivalent to a $.25 million expend iture and I wou ld sim ply ask the Minister to look into what was done before and whether or not it would be worthwhile to invest again. 2728 I also sugge st that radio mustn't be ignored because it has a lot of advantages that television doesn't have in terms of the classroom, the use of imagination, the fact that you can say we're now on the planet Mar s and don't have to recreate a set, etc.

So I think that although there may be a natural tende ncy to invest more in television, radio mustn't be forgotten or ignored. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Me mber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank yo u, Mr . Chairman. When the Minister mentioned that the videotape library, I assume, is in more demand, is that videotape library available to other than schools? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. HEMPHILL: All educational jur isdictions, Mr . Chairman.

Tuesday, 25 May, 1982 MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister mentioned a number of new initiatives that are recog nizing some of the creative talent that is in Man itoba. Is that an ongoing program or is that something that she has started and stimulated since bec oming Minister? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, I think that was something that the production and the work that had gone on before had started in that direction and we are contin­ uing to support it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr .

Chairman, I have some rather vivid memories of pre-1 977 days where, I believe it was the Department of Educ ation had a prog ram called "Fo cus." Are we in any way discussing the revitalization of the "Focus" program which had a cadre of staff eq uipped with videotape cameras, videotape machines, television sets that would go out to various organ izations, not educational but com­ munity organizations, and present to them various films of events that had taken place from time to time and was sponsored by the Department of Educ ation? Is this in any way a recreation or revitalization of "Focus?" HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Or reincarnation, perhaps, Mr. Chairman. No, the program that the Me mber for Pem­ bina is talking about was disbanded in 19 78 and there isn't anything that exists in this depart ment that is like that program that was disbanded. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, when the Minister says in this department, does she mean in this line of the Estimates or in her department in total? It doesn't exist in the depar tment, the Minister indicates. Is it the Minister's desire or intention to revitalize such a pro­ gram based on the "Focus" format of pre-1 977? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr .

Chairman, I am not as famil­ iar with the Me mber for Pembina's knowledge about that specific prog ram, so I wou ld have to have more detail to see if it fits into any of the direction that the depart ment is going into. I haven't had time to - well, that hasn't come to my attention and I don't know what the program actu ally was, what its pu rpose was and what it did. I think it's cle ar that this department is movir1g sig­ nificantly into the area of having a very good depart­ ment of materials and resources that can be made available to school divisions that they don't have access to themselves.

One of the things we are finding is that with resources being cut back and school divi­ sions tightening their own bu dgets, it is significantly increasing, or appears to be, the demand s on depart­ ments like this where they are turning to centralized resources instead of going into their own. So we're moving in a number of ways. I think we are moving into catalog uing, automation and distribution.

They have spent in the last year a fair amount of time improving that, so that the resources that they had cou ld be distributed better. that people had proper identification, they could get their hands on them and we were using the materials that we had. That was No. 1.

I think we're moving into and there's a great demand for increases in software, for instance, with the significant increase in hardware and equ ip- ment, both VTR and computers that are out in the field, and while we have moved to expand the video­ tape area, we have not moved in this year to expand the software for compu ters. because we're presently doing a study that's giving us additi