British Columbia Hansard — 31 May 2018, p.m., Issue 148 (41st Parliament, 3rd Session)

20180531pm-Hansard-n148

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 41st Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD) Thursday, May 31, 2018 Afternoon Sitting Issue No. 148 THE HONOURABLE DARRYL PLECAS, SPEAKER ISSN 1499-2175

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC Third Session, 41st Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Darryl Plecas EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................... Hon. John Horgan Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance............................................................................................................................Hon.

Carole James Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Training..................................................................................................... Hon. Melanie Mark Minister of Agriculture.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Attorney General.................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

David Eby, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ............................................................................................................ Hon. Katrine Conroy Minister of State for Child Care...................................................................................................................................... Hon. Katrina Chen Minister of Citizens’ Services.................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Jinny Sims Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................ Hon. Rob Fleming Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ...............................................................................................Hon. Michelle Mungall Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy............................................................................................. Hon.

George Heyman Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ..............................................Hon. Doug Donaldson Minister of Health .....................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Adrian Dix Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ......................................................................................................... Hon.

Scott Fraser Minister of Jobs, Trade and Technology............................................................................................................................ Hon. Bruce Ralston Minister of State for Trade...............................................................................................................................................Hon. George Chow Minister of Labour ...................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Harry Bains Minister of Mental Health and Addictions............................................................................................................................ Hon. Judy Darcy Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.................................................................................................................. Hon. Selina Robinson Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ........................................................................................................... Hon.

Mike Farnworth Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction..............................................................................................Hon. Shane Simpson Minister of Tourism, Arts and Culture.....................................................................................................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure................................................................................................................ Hon.

Claire Trevena LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition................................................................................................................................Andrew Wilkinson, QC Leader of the Third Party ....................................................................................................................................................Dr. Andrew Weaver Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................................................................................

Raj Chouhan Assistant Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................................................................... Linda Reid Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ................................................................................................................

Spencer Chandra Herbert Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ....................................................................................................................................................Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees.................................................................................................................................

Kate Ryan-Lloyd Clerk Assistant — Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ..........................................................................................Susan Sourial Sessional Law Clerk...............................................................................................................................................Loredana Catalli-Sonier, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary Lenz

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal) ........................................................................ Penticton Bains, Hon. Harry (NDP)...............................................................Surrey-Newton Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ................................................... Cariboo-Chilcotin Beare, Hon. Lisa (NDP).............................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Begg, Garry (NDP) ..................................................................... Surrey-Guildford Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) .......................................................

Peace River South Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal)......................................... Prince George–Valemount Brar, Jagrup (NDP)..................................................................... Surrey-Fleetwood Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal)....................................................... Surrey South Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ..................................... Vancouver–West End Chen, Hon. Katrina (NDP).....................................................Burnaby-Lougheed Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ............................................................... Burnaby-Edmonds Chow, Hon.

George (NDP)............................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal) ................................ Columbia River–Revelstoke Coleman, Rich (BC Liberal) ...............................................................Langley East Conroy, Hon. Katrine (NDP)......................................................... Kootenay West Darcy, Hon.

Judy (NDP) ............................................................New Westminster Davies, Dan (BC Liberal) ..........................................................Peace River North de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ............................................ Abbotsford West Dean, Mitzi (NDP)...............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin D’Eith, Bob (NDP) ...............................................................Maple Ridge–Mission Dix, Hon. Adrian (NDP)......................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Donaldson, Hon.

Doug (NDP).....................................................................Stikine Eby, Hon. David, QC (NDP)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable (NDP)....................................................... Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Hon. Mike (NDP) ...................................................... Port Coquitlam Fleming, Hon. Rob (NDP) .....................................................Victoria–Swan Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)........................................................... Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Hon.

Scott (NDP) ................................................ Mid Island–Pacific Rim Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ........................................... Cowichan Valley Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ................................................. Abbotsford-Mission Glumac, Rick (NDP)........................................................Port Moody–Coquitlam Heyman, Hon. George (NDP) .............................................. Vancouver-Fairview Horgan, Hon. John (NDP) ...............................................

Langford–Juan de Fuca Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) .......................................................Surrey-Cloverdale Isaacs, Joan (BC Liberal) .........................................Coquitlam–Burke Mountain James, Hon. Carole (NDP)...................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Johal, Jas (BC Liberal)...............................................

Richmond-Queensborough Kahlon, Ravi (NDP)..............................................................................Delta North Kang, Anne (NDP)..................................................................Burnaby–Deer Lake Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ..................................................................Nanaimo Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)............................................................................ Shuswap Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) .............................................Boundary-Similkameen Lee, Michael (BC Liberal) ......................................................

Vancouver-Langara Leonard, Ronna-Rae (NDP) ....................................................Courtenay-Comox Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal)............................................Kelowna–Lake Country Ma, Bowinn (NDP) ................................................... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Mark, Hon. Melanie (NDP) ..................................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Martin, John (BC Liberal)...................................................................... Chilliwack Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal)....................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ..........................................Prince George–Mackenzie Mungall, Hon. Michelle (NDP).................................................... Nelson-Creston Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal) ...........................................................Cariboo North Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)........................... Saanich North and the Islands Paton, Ian (BC Liberal)......................................................................... Delta South Plecas, Hon.

Darryl (Ind.) ..........................................................Abbotsford South Polak, Mary (BC Liberal) ............................................................................ Langley Popham, Hon. Lana (NDP)..............................................................Saanich South Ralston, Hon. Bruce (NDP) .......................................................... Surrey-Whalley Redies, Tracy (BC Liberal) ..................................................... Surrey–White Rock Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ................................................

Richmond South Centre Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ............................................................................ North Coast Robinson, Hon. Selina (NDP) ....................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal)..................................................................................Skeena Routledge, Janet (NDP) .................................................................. Burnaby North Routley, Doug (NDP) ................................................Nanaimo–North Cowichan Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ..............................................................

Nechako Lakes Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal) .............................................................Kootenay East Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ........................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Hon. Shane (NDP)................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Sims, Hon.

Jinny (NDP) .............................................................Surrey-Panorama Singh, Rachna (NDP) ........................................................Surrey–Green Timbers Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ................................................................Kelowna West Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal)..............................................Parksville-Qualicum Stone, Todd (BC Liberal)........................................

Kamloops–South Thompson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal).......................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...............................................Vancouver–False Creek Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ......................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ................................................................ Fraser-Nicola Thomson, Steve (BC Liberal)..................................................... Kelowna-Mission Thornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) .............................

North Vancouver–Seymour Throness, Laurie (BC Liberal) ..................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Trevena, Hon. Claire (NDP) .............................................................. North Island Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal) ................................................Richmond North Centre Weaver, Dr. Andrew (BC Green Party) ......................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal) .............................. Vancouver-Quilchena Y ap, John (BC Liberal)..........................................................

Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Mission ..........................................................................Simon Gibson Abbotsford South ..................................................................... Hon. Darryl Plecas Abbotsford West .................................................................... Michael de Jong, QC Boundary-Similkameen.....................................................................

Linda Larson Burnaby–Deer Lake ...............................................................................Anne Kang Burnaby-Edmonds ..............................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Lougheed................................................................... Hon. Katrina Chen Burnaby North................................................................................

Janet Routledge Cariboo-Chilcotin ............................................................................Donna Barnett Cariboo North .................................................................................. Coralee Oakes Chilliwack.............................................................................................. John Martin Chilliwack-Kent..............................................................................Laurie Throness Columbia River–Revelstoke........................................................

Doug Clovechok Coquitlam–Burke Mountain................................................................. Joan Isaacs Coquitlam-Maillardville..................................................... Hon. Selina Robinson Courtenay-Comox ................................................................. Ronna-Rae Leonard Cowichan Valley ............................................................................

Sonia Furstenau Delta North ...........................................................................................Ravi Kahlon Delta South.................................................................................................Ian Paton Esquimalt-Metchosin.............................................................................Mitzi Dean Fraser-Nicola........................................................................................

Jackie Tegart Kamloops–North Thompson............................................................Peter Milobar Kamloops–South Thompson ................................................................Todd Stone Kelowna–Lake Country....................................................................Norm Letnick Kelowna-Mission.............................................................................

Steve Thomson Kelowna West.........................................................................................Ben Stewart Kootenay East .....................................................................................Tom Shypitka Kootenay West ...................................................................... Hon. Katrine Conroy Langford–Juan de Fuca............................................................. Hon. John Horgan Langley....................................................................................................

Mary Polak Langley East .......................................................................................Rich Coleman Maple Ridge–Mission ............................................................................ Bob D’Eith Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..........................................................Hon. Lisa Beare Mid Island–Pacific Rim .............................................................. Hon. Scott Fraser Nanaimo ...............................................................................

Leonard Eugene Krog Nanaimo–North Cowichan.............................................................. Doug Routley Nechako Lakes ...................................................................................... John Rustad Nelson-Creston.................................................................. Hon. Michelle Mungall New Westminster ......................................................................... Hon. Judy Darcy North Coast..........................................................................................

Jennifer Rice North Island ............................................................................ Hon. Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ................................................................. Bowinn Ma North Vancouver–Seymour ......................................................Jane Thornthwaite Oak Bay–Gordon Head ..........................................................Dr.

Andrew Weaver Parksville-Qualicum .....................................................................Michelle Stilwell Peace River North.................................................................................. Dan Davies Peace River South ............................................................................... Mike Bernier Penticton................................................................................................ Dan Ashton Port Coquitlam .................................................................... Hon.

Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Coquitlam .....................................................................Rick Glumac Powell River–Sunshine Coast ..................................................... Nicholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie ..................................................................Mike Morris Prince George–Valemount.................................................................

Shirley Bond Richmond North Centre ........................................................................Teresa Wat Richmond-Queensborough .......................................................................Jas Johal Richmond South Centre........................................................................ Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston..................................................................................

John Y ap Saanich North and the Islands............................................................Adam Olsen Saanich South............................................................................Hon. Lana Popham Shuswap .................................................................................................... Greg Kyllo Skeena ......................................................................................................... Ellis Ross Stikine ..................................................................................Hon.

Doug Donaldson Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................................... Marvin Hunt Surrey-Fleetwood ...................................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey–Green Timbers ......................................................................Rachna Singh Surrey-Guildford ....................................................................................Garry Begg Surrey-Newton.............................................................................Hon.

Harry Bains Surrey-Panorama........................................................................... Hon. Jinny Sims Surrey South............................................................................... Stephanie Cadieux Surrey-Whalley........................................................................ Hon. Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................................. Tracy Redies Vancouver-Fairview ............................................................ Hon.

George Heyman Vancouver–False Creek....................................................................... Sam Sullivan Vancouver-Fraserview .............................................................Hon. George Chow Vancouver-Hastings .............................................................. Hon. Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington ..................................................................... Mable Elmore Vancouver-Kingsway ................................................................... Hon.

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara .............................................................................. Michael Lee Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ................................................... Hon. Melanie Mark Vancouver–Point Grey...........................................................Hon.

David Eby, QC Vancouver-Quilchena ......................................................Andrew Wilkinson, QC Vancouver–West End....................................................Spencer Chandra Herbert Vernon-Monashee...................................................................................Eric Foster Victoria–Beacon Hill ................................................................ Hon. Carole James Victoria–Swan Lake .................................................................. Hon. Rob Fleming West Vancouver–Capilano .................................................................

Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ..............................................................Jordan Sturdy Party Standings: BC Liberal 42; NDP 41; BC Green Party 3; Independent 1

CONTENTS Thursday, May 31, 2018 Afternoon Sitting Page Routine Business Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................... 5251 J. Rustad Orders of the Day Government Motions on Notice ........................................................................................................................................... 5251 Motion 25 — Change to terms of reference for Agriculture, Fish and Food Committee Hon. M.

Farnworth Committee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 5251 Estimates: Office of the Premier(continued) D. Barnett Hon. J. Horgan D. Clovechok L. Throness E. Ross S. Bond A. Wilkinson T. Redies M. Lee A. Weaver R.

Sultan Estimates: Legislative Assembly Estimates: Officers of the Legislature Supply Motions........................................................................................................................................................................ 5275 Reports of resolutions from Committee of Supply Funds granted for public service Funds granted for capital expenditures, loans, investments and other financing requirements Hon. C.

James Introduction and First Reading of Bills................................................................................................................................ 5275 Bill 35 — Supply Act, 2018-2019 Hon. C. James Second Reading of Bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 5275 Bill 35 — Supply Act, 2018-2019 Hon. C.

James Committee of the Whole House............................................................................................................................................ 5276 Bill 35 — Supply Act, 2018-2019 Report and Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................................................... 5276 Bill 35 — Supply Act, 2018-2019 Royal Assent to Bills................................................................................................................................................................ 5276 Bill 23 — Local Government Statutes (Residential Rental Tenure Zoning) Amendment Act, 2018 Bill 24 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2018 Bill 25 — Real Estate Development Marketing Amendment Act, 2018 Bill 26 — Child, Family and Community Service Amendment Act, 2018 Bill 27 — Pill Press and Related Equipment Control Act Bill 29 — Voluntary Blood Donations Act Bill 30 — Cannabis Control and Licensing Act Bill 31 — Cannabis Distribution Act Bill 33 — South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority Amendment Act, 2018 Bill 34 — Greenhouse Gas Reduction Targets Amendment Act, 2018 Bill Pr401 — Canadian Chinese School of Theology Vancouver Act Bill 35 — Supply Act, 2018-2019

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 5277 Estimates: Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources(continued) T. Redies Hon. M. Mungall M. Bernier L. Throness T. Shypitka Proceedings in the Birch Room Committee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 5297 Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Trade and Technology(continued) Hon. B. Ralston B. Stewart S. Bond S. Thomson J. Johal G. Kyllo

THURSDAY , MAY 31, 2018 The House met at 1:32 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Petitions J. Rustad:I have a petition signed by 254 residents in my riding, asking that the government extend the hours of oper- ation of the Francois Lake ferry. Orders of the Day Hon. M. Farnworth:I call government Motion 25. That’s on the order paper in my name, so both official opposition and Third Party House Leaders are aware of it. Government Motions on Notice MOTION 25 — CHANGE TO TERMS OF REFERENCE FOR AGRICULTURE, FISH AND FOOD COMMITTEE Hon. M.

Farnworth:I move that: [In addition to the terms of reference previously provided to the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture, Fish and Food by the Legislative Assembly on April 24, 2018, the Committee shall examine, inquire into and make recommendations regarding how to restore healthy and abundant wild fish stocks in British Columbia. In particular, the Committee shall conduct consultations to examine the health, habitat and management of wild Pacific salmon and the sustainability of wild Pacific salmon industry in British Columbia.

The Committee shall prepare a report on the results of those consultations no later than November 29, 2018, and report as soon as possible to the House, or following any adjournment, or at the next following session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Motion approved. Hon. M. Farnworth:In this chamber, I call the continued estimates debate on the Premier’s office.

In Committee A, I call the continued debate on the estimates for the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources. In Committee C, the Birch Room, I call continued debate on the estimates of the Ministry of Jobs, Trade and Technology. [1:35 p.m.] After the estimates of the Premier are completed, I will also call estimates Votes 1 to 9. After that, there will be the supply motions by the Minister of Finance. D. Routley:I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members D. Routley:The Premier asks us always to be out there making new friends.

I like making friends in the hallways of the building here, which I did today. I made friends with some really wonderful people from Richmond. I met Mandy Leongoich Xiang — she’s the daughter-in-law of this family — and Xiang Xial Xiang, the son. They’re both from Germany, living in Germany now as engineers. The whole family are engineers, including the father of the family, Don Xiang Xing. He was an engineer here in British Columbia and Alberta. They lived most of their lives in Calgary. His wife was with him as well, Xiu Chu Xing. Both of them now live in Richmond. We toured the building.

We got to meet a few people. I was able to emphasize that indeed, this is their House, and that they are always welcome here, as are all the people of B.C. Can the members please help me welcome to the precinct this lovely family from Richmond. [1:40 p.m.] Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the chair. The committee met at 1:41 p.m. On Vote 10: Office of the Premier, $11,305,000 (continued). D.

Barnett:To the Premier: first of all, thank you, Premier, for allowing us to be here and ask you a few questions, and thank you for Rick Hansen Day. I’m going to go back to the estimates of November 23, 2017. In 2017, I said I was a little frustrated, and I’m still frus- trated. I’m frustrated over…. Back to the wildfires of 2017. We still have devastation. We still have issues. Y ou made a commitment that you were here to help us, and I believe it. But some of the bigger issues we have are getting answers from your ministers on some of the issues that we’ve asked questions on. Of course, it’s back to the staff.

We have the greatest staff in the world out in our regions. But we have many questions that haven’t been answered. I will continue to write letters and hope I do get some answers. As we all realize, your ministers are extremely busy. We know that. But we must also have the passion for our constituents who are frustrated. When they have to wait a long time for an answer, they get even more frustrated. And they’re very fearful, of course, because we’ve already had wildfires, believe it or not, in 2018. 5251

So I would just ask that you maybe see if you can’t speed up processes for us when we do make these calls. It would be greatly appreciated. Back to the mitigation and rehabilitation from the 2017 wildfires. I know that the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resources has a budget of around $55 million for a three-year rehabilitation. I also know that the Forest Enhancement Society this year is putting $137,000 into rehabilitation and restoration. Mr. Premier, I’ve done my homework, and this is just a touch. Out there on the landscape, we need, desperately, more funding for seeding.

We need more money for rehabilitation. If we don’t get the seeding done quickly, of course, we’ll have an invasive problem called invasive weeds. So I’m going to make a request, to ask: what is the long-term plan and the short-term plan so that we can get some of this rehabilitation work done quicker? [1:45 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member for her questions. I know her steadfast commitment to her community. She will know full well, because she was there on the ground every day, that we did have an extraordinary season in the last year, and we’re hopeful that we don’t see a repeat of that.

But when I think of the member for Boundary-Simil- kameen’s comments today about floods that have arrived early and the fires that are following quick on their heels, that sounds very familiar to last year. Projections are that we’re going to have another dry summer, and that, of course, causes great concern. Some of the issues…. I know the member has canvassed this extensively with the Minister of Forests, Lands and Nat- ural Resource Operations. I’ll just add to that, that our objective is to see as quickly as possible what we can get out of the forests, the burned timber, get it to market.

Once that happens, then the tenure holders are obliged to replant. So when we determine how much of the burnt wood we can actually get to market, how much then will be the respons- ibility of the tenure holder, then we can take stock of how we deal with those areas of land that were decimated and are potentially at risk of invasive species, as the member knows full well. It has to be a staged process. We need to know what the obligations of the tenure holders will be before the province can step in. We are doing our level best to make sure that we accelerate both those processes.

In discussions here in the Legislature over the fall and into this spring, I know the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin and the member for Cariboo North and others have raised the concern that we need to get this timber out of the forest as quickly as we can. That really falls to the companies to do that, and they’ve been doing their level best, I’m advised, to make that happen. There are tens of millions of dollars in budgets. There are the moneys that are available through the ministry. There’s the money available through the forest enhancement fund — $137 million.

I think you said thou- sands, but I know it’s a bunch of money. That’s cold comfort to people like you, hon. Member, and your neighbours who depend on the land base for economic activity, for cultural purposes, when it comes to Indigenous peoples. That’s why we asked our former colleague George Abbott, and Maureen Chapman, to go quickly to respond to the fire season and bring forward recommendations for gov- ernment, whether it be at the executive council level or with- in ministries. What can we do to be better prepared?

What can we do to ensure that the recovery that the member so desperately wants to see happen quickly can actually do that? I know she will be relentless in that, and I respect her very much for that. And I expect several more questions before we’re done today. T. Shypitka:I seek leave for an introduction. Leave granted. The Chair:Proceed. Introductions by Members T. Shypitka:I’ve got a couple of guests in the House here today from Cranbrook — Tricia McLeod and her daughter, Elizabeth, who is 11. They are here for a speech — arts pro- vincials. She’s representing the school of St. Mary’s, in Cran- brook.

Apparently Elizabeth loves her politics, and she came to the right place, I guess, here today. They had quite a trip getting here, and I wish the House to give them a good round of applause. Debate Continued D. Barnett:Y es, it is $137 million. I will correct my state- ment. Thank you for that, and thank you for the answer. [1:50 p.m.] I appreciate the fact that this is a long process, and the report that just came out from Mr. Abbott and Ms. Chapman is a very massive report. One question I do have about that report….

The concern I do have is that every single recom- mendation needs dollars and cents, and it’s massive dollars and cents. When will the response to this report be made, Mr. Premier? Who will be responsible for the funding of each one of the components and recommendations? Hon. J. Horgan:Certainly, not all of the recommenda- tions in the Abbott-Chapman report require resources. But the member is quite right: many of them do, significant resources. The action plan is anticipated by end of October.

To that, no resources have been attached to it at this time as we work through those recommendations, but there are a number of other initiatives. The member knows; we talked about some of them. There are two others I didn’t mention. There’s the forest carbon initiative and the low-carbon-economy fund, togeth- 5252 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

er with the federal government. That’s about $140 million from them and $150 million from us directed explicitly at using our forest for a carbon sink. The challenge we have on reforestation is that the devastation was so extraordinary. Seedlings take time. Seedlings have to be at a certain stage before they can be viable in the forest. There’s a backlog, and we anticipate we’ll be in a better position by 2020. Planting will increase substantially in 2020 to fully imple- ment the low-carbon fund programs, but we need to get up to 300 million trees. We’re in the realm of the 250 range now.

Y ou know; you live there. Y ou’ve seen it firsthand. I will also say that although I visited the area many times during the fire season, I was never able to get into the Chil- cotin because the smoke was so severe — from the air or on the ground. My colleague the minister and I bumped into each other at the airport in Vancouver, where oftentimes, as you know, productive meetings take place. We spent a good 20 minutes just thumbing through his iPhone at — as far as the eye could see — the blackness and the barrenness of what was a vibrant forest in your constituency.

I fully appreciate the magnitude of the problem. I don’t want the member to think for a minute that we don’t realize the magnitude of the problem. She will also know, as she’s already said, that we have outstanding government employ- ees that are on the ground. We need to just make sure the dollars are there to back this up. The recommendations that are actionable in the Chapman-Abbott report will be done as quickly as possible. D. Barnett:Thank you. I appreciate that. [1:55 p.m.] It’s more than just planting trees. Of course, there’s grass- lands.

We have the last good ecosystem of grasslands in the Cariboo-Chilcotin. Our ranchers, of course, have lost an awful lot of their grazing areas. I hope…. I haven’t heard yet how quickly seeding will be done. To the Premier, maybe you could respond to that — how quickly we’re going to get the grasslands planted. Hon. J. Horgan:I thank the member again for her ques- tions and her concern for her community. The forage land, the grasslands, are of course critically important to our cattlemen, our cattle industry. Fencing is another issue, of course, that has to be dealt with.

The min- ister advises me that ongoing discussions are talking place with the B.C. cattle community in her constituency. We expect to be able to make progress as quickly as possible, but there are backlogs of the raw materials that we need to get the grasses back to an area where they can be forage land again for cattle and other grazing stock. Again, here we are now coming up to a year from the event, and the member is still advocating for her com- munity, as she should.

I can only reinforce that she con- tinue to do that, and we will be mindful that the broader community understands that these challenges will not be fixed overnight. We are going from catastrophe to cata- strophe. We went from flood to fire and now back to flood — and hopefully, not significant fire again. But as the member already said, there are fires burning even now in the north and in the Interior. Our commitment is to meet the needs of the community as they arise.

She has quite ably highlighted that this is not without significant cost to the taxpayers, but it’s a cost that I believe all members are prepared to make in the interest of recovery and restoration in the Cariboo-Chilcotin. D. Barnett:Thank you, Premier. One of the concerns I’ve heard in my riding, around, is that the recommendations in the Abbott and Chapman report do not get put on the backs of local government. It seems, when you read the report, the recommendations say: First Nations, local government and the provincial government. This is not a responsibility of loc- al governments.

This is a responsibility of both the provincial and the federal governments. Mr. Premier, are any of these recommendations going to be put on the backs of local governments? [2:00 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I’ll have to say to the member that cer- tainly in the past there have been cost-sharing arrangements between all levels of governments. In my meetings with the mayor and council of Williams Lake, as well as the regional district — Mr.

Richmond and his colleagues — during the crisis, we made it absolutely clear that we would look at ways to stimulate economic activity outside of ensuring that inter- face areas were appropriately logged so that we were remov- ing fuel from communities in the cities. But in the regional districts, that’s a bigger challenge. It’s not our intention to be downloading anything.

In fact, it’s our intention to be working with all levels of government — federal, municipal and regional — to make sure that we’re working together with the private land owners, with the cattle industry and other industries that depend on access to Crown lands as well as to private lands, to make sure that we can continue to get the Cariboo-Chilcotin back on track to be an economic engine in the region when it comes to forestry, livestock and so on. We’re not starting out with any expectation that we will be offloading onto municipalities — quite the contrary — but we need to be working in partnership.

In the case of floods this year — and my colleague the parliamentary sec- retary knows this full well — the floods are the responsibility of municipalities, and the fires are the responsibility of the provincial Crown. The confusion oftentimes exists within the public mind about who’s in charge here, and everyone’s always looking for someone to offer that helping hand. I think what we’ve learned in our short time in govern- ment is the best way to proceed is to go with all levels of gov- ernment together into communities to make the case that we’re there for the long term.

I’ d like to think that we did our level best to do that in the Cariboo-Chilcotin. We’re certainly doing our level best Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5253

in Boundary-Similkameen right now to address the flood- ing there, working with the federal government. The Armed Forces were sent in at the request of the PREOCs at that time. When the crisis is happening, I think you see a high level of participation and cooperation between levels of gov- ernment. The member mentioned Indigenous communities. Again, there was a high level of anxiety about being told what and where to go and what to do. The member will know full well the personalities and the communities that were affected this past summer.

I think what we need to do as elected representatives is to show the community that we are together — all levels, all political parties — when these issues arise. I was particu- larly grateful to travel with the Leader of the Opposition, the House Leader for the Green Party and two local MLAs from the opposition side to Chilliwack, together, so that we could say quite clearly, with one voice, to people who were facing potential catastrophe and crisis, that we were not going to be fighting amongst ourselves; we were going to be working together for outcomes.

I believe, and I know the member would agree, that shouldn’t just be the case when the crisis is happening; it should be there while the recovery takes place. I commit to continue to work with the member and her community to make sure we get success in the future. D. Barnett:To the Premier, thank you. I would like to, through you, Mr. Chair, invite you to come on a tour with me. There are many places I would like to take you. Really and truly, I think you would appreciate the passion and the understanding of what people are living with. I invite you to come to my riding.

I will be the driver, and I guarantee you I will get you safely back. I’ d like to change focus. As you know, the superintendent of real estate will be making some major changes in the real estate industry in this province. We, along with realtors — the B.C. Northern Real Estate Board, the B.C. Real Estate Board and others — have been requesting to the minister that this process be put on hold. [2:05 p.m.] There are many issues out there that have to be resolved. There is much more work that needs to be done. There is not an understanding in the real estate industry, both by the realtors and by myself.

I was a realtor for 26 years. To take away dual agency in rural British Columbia…. We have enough economic situations with fires and floods. We do not need more job loss. We do not need more anxiety. Will the Premier please speak to his minister, who has the authority — we make the legislation — to put the changes to the superintendent of real estate on hold until we have an all-party commission or something so that we can better understand and make changes that are necessary in the best interests of all of British Columbia — and, in particular, not to devastate the rural economy any further. Hon. J.

Horgan:To the greatest extent possible…. I have a son getting married — my gooder son. The good son’s not married; the gooder son’s getting married this summer. Bar- ring that, I would be delighted to travel in the Cariboo-Chil- cotin with the member, going to places I’ve not yet been. I would be delighted to do that. So my people will talk to your people and make sure that your driving record is clear and that you, indeed, will get me back safely. Firstly, I want to say that the possibilities of conflict between realtors is not trivial. The member knows that.

But I also appreciate that small communities are quite dif- ferent from large metropolitan centres. Everyone knows everyone, and oftentimes, the best way to close an arrange- ment that’s in the benefit of both buyer and seller is with one agent. Perhaps that might be the only way, in some cases, that that can happen. Although I will not commit, in these estimates, to make determinations on behalf of the minister, I will commit to the member to talk to the minister about our conversation today and direct her to theBlues if she wants to directly read your comments. I’ll certainly commit to do that. D.

Barnett:Thank you, Premier. I don’t think anybody realizes or understands the ramifications, should this all pass, through the superintendent of real estate. In rural Brit- ish Columbia, in places we have one realtor. We have one office. In other places that are a little bigger in rural British Columbia, we have family real estate offices. Probably over 50 percent of our realtors will be unemployed, and there will be no representation for our citizens. This is taking away consumers’ rights to hire whom they wish.

I sincerely hope that this issue can be resolved collaborat- ively and with input from realtors, not just people who are appointed to the Real Estate Council. There are 12. Only two are actual realtors, and two, I believe, are from rural British Columbia. I will leave this in your hands, Mr. Premier, and hope for a positive outcome. With that, I will turn this over to my colleague from Columbia River–Revelstoke. [2:10 p.m.] D. Clovechok:Thank you to the Premier for this oppor- tunity.

Before I get into what I’m going to chat about today, I just would warn him, if he’s going up to the Cariboo-Chil- cotin with the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin — I spent four days with her — eat before you go, and do not drink water, because bathroom stops are not allowed. And I dare you to try to keep up to her. It was a task, let me tell you. But it’s worth the trip, and I encourage the Premier to take her up on that offer. But prepare yourself for that. Also, just a follow-up to the Premier around this real estate issue. It’s a huge issue in Columbia River–Revelstoke. It’s a huge issue in Kootenay East.

It’s an issue in all rural communities. I really want to reinforce what my colleague had to say — that this is a big deal where we come from, and it’s affecting people’s livelihoods. I take your offer to follow 5254 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

up on that in all good stead, because it’s something that’s very serious and needs to be done for our rural realtors. What is made for or proposed in the Lower Mainland doesn’t work where we live, so there needs to be another solution. I just needed to mention that. I also stand here today as the voice of the people of Columbia River–Revelstoke, and specifically, for the folks in Revelstoke, and maybe, like my colleague did a little bit, hit the History Channel button and go back to November when I spoke to you about the Three Valley Gap issue associated with the Trans-Canada Highway.

The Premier talked about the Colwood crawl and the Saanich crawl, which are big issues for those folks. But when reflecting back on that, prior to me standing here today, it’s kind of apples and oranges. When you’re stuck in a traffic jam — and we’ve all been in cities and, obviously, in Vancouver traffic — there’s a dif- ference between turning on your radio and listening to some tunes and getting home half an hour later, and actually driv- ing through an area knowing full well that your life is in peril. I just wanted to highlight that there are huge differ- ences.

I understand there are transportation issues across this province, but this is a massive issue that has the potential of threatening life. I want to let them know that Shannon Smith is watching today from Revelstoke. The mayor is watching from Revel- stoke, and many people from Revelstoke are watching this today, as we speak, because I gave them the times that I would be up here today. During the last estimates, and this comes right out of Hansard….

I just want to remind the Premier of some of the words that were spoken that day in relationship to the Three Valley Gap. “That is a personal commitment of mine that we get to start as soon as possible. ” And I quote again: “It’s my commitment to him” — referring to me — “and to his constituents that we want to make sure that those improve- ments occur as quickly and as seamlessly as possible. ” Then he also said: “I’m going to commit to talk to the minister about Three Valley Gap. ” My first question to the Premier would be: how fruitful were those conversations with the minister around Three Valley Gap, and what do we know — more than what we did back in November?

Hon. J. Horgan:I’ll do a couple of things while we wait for a little bit more information to come into the room. Firstly, on the dual-agency question. I was travelling back to Ott- awa recently at the request of the Prime Minister, and it happened to coincide with the national real estate meeting in Ottawa. So I wasn’t the only one sitting in economy; there were a whole bunch of realtors as well. They took full advant- age of that opportunity, particularly those from rural com- munities, to advise me of their thoughts on the matter. Some of them took pictures with me.

I don’t know where they ended up or whether they used them for malice or for posit- ive outcomes, but we had good exchanges. [2:15 p.m.] Again, I’m not just hearing about these issues inside the Legislature. The real estate associations across the province are active on this question, and I know the minister takes it very seriously. But I will say to this member, as I did to the last: the conflicts in larger areas are not insignificant, and that issue needed to be addressed. It was acknowledged by the previous government. This is not a concoction of the new govern- ment.

It’s something that I think we all recognized, and we have to make sure we get it right. When it comes to the particular roadway in question — the Three Valley Gap — and having the difficulty of the rail- way, the river, the mountains, everything that the member knows full well, I did have a discussion with the Minister of Transportation. Our commitment has been pretty clear for the past ten months that the corridor from Kamloops to the Alberta border is one that we want to see accelerated. I said that last year. That remains the case today. We’re hoping to get a little bit of information on that.

I’m really ragging the puck at this point, but the good news is I’ll be in Revelstoke next week talking to the Interior lumber association. I’m not suggesting that you and I go for a drive, because you’ve already suggested that perhaps the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin should be ride-hailing…. We’ll call it ride-hailing from Cariboo. We’ll get an app for that so that the three of us can go. I will be in the region next week. I’m sure I’ll hear about it again. We are committed to accelerating the development of highway improvements through the corridor, and Three Val- ley Gap is an integral part of that.

But as he knows, it’s going to be costly, and we need to all be mindful of that as well. D. Clovechok:I will be at the same ILMA conference as he is, so hopefully we can…. And the minister…. Sorry. I almost called you by your name — which is a great name. Nonetheless, we’ll see you both there. I know that “accelerate” and “expedite” have really been driving words behind your government’s approach to the Trans-Canada Highway, yet I’m going to be very candid with you, sir, and very frank with you here today. The people of Revelstoke have had it. Frankly, I’ve had it. And it’s not your problem.

Y ou didn’t create this. Y ou didn’t do this. I want that to be read into the record, no question. When we were in government, we put in measures that would make people safer, especially the towers up on the bluffs for avalanches. But at the end of the day, you are government now. When the member and I spoke back in November, you said: “Cut me some slack. ” That was the word. “I’ve only been here for four months. ” And you know what? We gave you the benefit of the doubt. Well, the train- ing wheels are off, and you’ve had some time now. What I want to do today….

Shannon Smith, I referenced her in November as well. An amazing Revelstokian, who got nailed by a huge rock. The Premier — if I recall from those estimates — also mentioned a situation with you and your son. Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5255

Interjection. D. Clovechok:I won’t go there. Nonetheless, you’ve had that experience, and you know how scary it can be. I would certainly hand these to you at some other time, sir — although, we’re not supposed to use props here. These are pictures of Shannon’s car. And that was a small, little rock that got her. A brand-new car, completely written off. She’s had nerve damage. She’s really struggling today — I’ve met with her several times — with the psychological debris, if you can use that word, of what had happened to her.

Her daughter is not allowed to drive on that highway, because she’s just so afraid of what’s going to happen. Also for reference, that I can pass on to the Premier…. About four weeks ago, a boulder came off of the cliff there that was bigger than my truck. Thank goodness it didn’t hit anybody, because had it hit somebody, they would have died. They also talked, and the minister has talked, about net- ting. Netting is not going to stop that rock. There is something very nefarious going on. And that bluff…. It’s been happening since the ’60s.

As I mentioned, this is not anything that you created, but you are now government, and therefore you need to deal with this. Just referencing back to the folks of Revelstoke, who I stand here and represent today. [2:20 p.m.] I know that your office…. Y ou certainly wouldn’t have been able to read them all, but right now there are over 800 letters that have been written to the Premier’s office from Revelstokians about this issue. I would like to read into the record a couple of quotes that I just pulled from these. I have these here with me today.

I’ve got over 600 of them sitting here today, although there have been 800 that have been sent. They’re here today, and those should have been in your office. This is from Alanna Widmer, in Revelstoke: “Our lives are affected deeply by this issue. We need action. We need your help. ” This one comes from a Revelstokian by the name of Vic- toria Sims, who works at Three Valley Gap, actually, and lives in Revelstoke: “I drive to and from work and have to pass that rock face at Three Valley Gap every day. I feel like I’m playing Russian roulette with my life, and I don’t like doing that.

I need this job, but it’s not fun going to work. The fear of this stretch of highway is very real for us. ” This is a quote from Louisa Fleming, another Revelstoki- an, who actually had an experience herself: “In August 2016, we were on our way to a medical appointment in Salmon Arm when hit by a rock in the middle of the road at Three Valley Gap, shattering two wheels and shredding two tires. Fortunately, we were not injured, but I missed my CT scan in Salmon Arm and couldn’t rebook until November. Not only that; we had to pay the towing charges and a $500 ICBC deductible.

Please do the right thing and get this upgrade done before more people are killed or injured. ” A quote from Chris Harvey, in Revelstoke: “This highway needs attention. We shouldn’t have to wait for someone to lose a loved one before something is done. ” This comes from Cindy Lloyd, from Revelstoke: “I implore you to please give this issue the depth of attention that it deserves. ” This comes from Nick Thomas, in Revelstoke: “It’s time for the government to be honest with the people of British Columbia.

Until there’s some sort of overall plan, with feasible options to upgrade all the remaining two-lane sec- tions, and more funding, then the only decent thing to do is to stop pretending that a Kamloops-to-Alberta-border program exists. ” I won’t go on; there are multiple examples of this. But Revelstoke has had it. They’re afraid for their lives. As a result of that…. To the Premier, I’m just wondering what he can commit to today, to the people of Revelstoke, that will help them under- stand that this is a public safety issue. Frankly, this govern- ment today knows that it’s a public safety issue.

They know that it’s not a matter of if someone is going to get killed; it’s a matter of when someone is going to get killed. If someone does lose their life, God forbid, then, Premier, that’s on you, sir, and your government. I’m not a lawyer, but there’s going to be litigation, and we don’t need any more litigation in this province. To the Premier, I would ask, on behalf of the people of Revelstoke: what is your government’s plan to fix this? It’s not a twinning issue; it is a public safety issue. People every day fear for their lives, and they’ve had it. [2:25 p.m.] Hon. J.

Horgan:I remember well the conversation the member and I had last fall when he reminded me of the rock, bigger than two of these desks, that came pounding down the highway in my community and how close it came. I had forgotten about that. Thanks for reminding me of it. But I do remember very well the conversation, and my commitment remains the same. Certainly, we can’t rely on typical rock-face fencing. That’s not adequate. We need to find new ways to address this. There are designs underway to develop new rockfall fence systems. That design work is ongoing.

Since we spoke in November, of course, the construction season has been…. Snow and weather prohibit any significant work until where we are right now. The projects in the budget this year call for some $700 million for projects in and around the member’s area — Three Valley Gap being among them. But we do have to make sure we’re getting it right. We don’t want to make those significant investments and still have the same safety challenges that the member knows so well. I will continue to work with the Minister of Transport- ation. We have made this a priority.

I said it directly to the member, to his citizens, last fall, and that remains the case. I do know that work is underway, as I said, to try to find new technologies that will be more effective than the tradi- tional mechanisms that are clearly inadequate in that stretch 5256 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

of highway. I appreciate the volume of correspondence the member has with him. That speaks to the passion of him and his community, and I’m not dismissive of that in any way. We’re hopeful to find out, of the $700 million that would be involved in the completion of these projects, how much of that is going to flow this summer, next summer and the summer after that. If the member has another question, I’ll wait for that information to arrive. D. Clovechok:These are the pictures that I was referring to. The Premier can see the size of that boulder.

The size of that boulder is not going to be stopped by any netting — not a chance. The vehicle was Shannon Smith’s car, which was hit by a small rock. When you look at that car, it’s absolutely amazing that that woman did not lose her life. As I say, she still suffers today from the trauma that was associated with that accident. During the Ministry of Transportation estimates, it was brought to our attention that there are no extra dollars in the budget for Three Valley Gap mitigation. It would be addi- tional dollars, from what I understood before, that would have to be applied here.

The point that I really want to ham- mer through here today is that this is something that can’t wait. This is critical. I know the Premier values British Columbians, and he values the safety of British Columbians. I know that. At this point, it’s not happening in Revelstoke. And that’s why the volume that we have here…. We’re anticipating over 2,000 letters are going to land on the Premier’s desk sooner or later. People have had enough of hearing about accelerat- ing and expediting, when nothing is going on. Nothing has happened.

Now, with Donald to Forde Station on the Trans- Canada Highway, there’s been an RFP , and it’s on its way. It’s good. And the Kicking Horse Canyon — I’m thrilled to know that it’s going to still continue. But Three Valley Gap…. We’ve got to figure this out. It’s not my job to provide solutions, but today, I believe…. I’m not a geologist; my son is. But I believe that a geotechnical survey needs to be done on this rock face to find out what is going on up there. This has been happening since the ’60s.

This is not the fault of this government, but it’s now the responsibility of this government to do something about it and do something about it now. So a geotechnical study, any- thing that would suggest that we can find a solution as to why this rock surface is moving — nobody has done that. So if I can offer that solution today, that might be something. [2:30 p.m.] Moving forward, I would really like to see and hear from the Premier today. What could be a potential timeline, given the critical mass of this? Is this something he’s willing to instruct his minister to act upon, not yesterday but today, right away?

Hon. J. Horgan:Again, I don’t doubt for a minute the urgency of the matter and the importance of public safety to the member and all members of this House. I do appreciate — the member has been clear — that this is not something that just happened ten months ago. It’s been building for dec- ades. Successive governments of all political stripes have not been able to find the solution to give the people in the com- munities the confidence that this valley is going to be safe for the travelling public. I think we also have to take note…. This is, again, par- ticularly apparent.

I think of the questions we just had from the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin about the intensity of fire seasons, the intensity of floods, the snowpack this year, the impact on the geology of the area that the member rep- resents — mountainous, spectacular vistas that are being changed by climate change. As we see more snow and a rapid melt and then a freeze again, fissures in rocks create opportunities for frost to grow to ice and then to melt and then to have the avalanches or the rockfalls that we have evidence — photographic evidence — are significant and important for us to address.

I do know, based on the notes I have before me, that this design work to try and find something that is certainly more adequate than the traditional safety equipment — the net- ting and the rockfall fencing that do not work in the area of the member’s constituency — is underway. I will ask the minister for an update on the geoscience. I think that’s an appropriate and helpful suggestion. I don’t know what work has been done in that regard, but I do know, by the

preamble to the answer to his question, that it strikes me that we all have to come to terms with the chan- ging environment that we live in, where more intense and severe winters and more intense and severe summers are going to lead to changes, not just in the landscape but also in the geology. That’s obviously apparent in an area that has had a history, as the member knows full well, of ava- lanche and rockfall. [L. Reid in the chair.] I do know that the three-year budget for the area is $464 million. That is increasing year over year, from this year, next year and the year forward.

These are significant investments, and they may just scratch the surface. But the member should continue to advocate directly with me, and his constituents are welcome to do that. The minister responsible understands this. Y ou had an opportunity to dir- ect questions to her specifically on this matter. The dollars are in the budget. The design work is being done. I will take back the suggestion of doing some geotech- nical work to see if there’s a baseline. I’m hopeful there’s a baseline.

I wouldn’t have been there over the past 16 years to establish that, but I’m hopeful that the geology has been reviewed and the geoscience is understood. If there has been a shift in activity, then we need to shift our perspect- ives and how we apply the dollars that are in the budget to make those roads safe. D. Clovechok:I appreciate those words, and I know that Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5257

you take this very seriously. What I would ask…. Y ou may not be able to answer this today, and I’ d be happy to hear back from you. Out of the budget dollars that you have just quoted, how many of those dollars are designated specific- ally for the Three Valley Gap mitigation? Interjection. [2:35 p.m.] D. Clovechok:I can repeat it. I’m asking, based on the dollars that you just quoted in terms of the Trans-Canada Highway, how many of those dollars are actually allocated directly to the Three Valley Gap mitigation project. Hon. J.

Horgan:I don’t have those numbers at my dispos- al, but I will commit to the member to get that answer from the minister and get it to him as quickly as possible. D. Clovechok:I appreciate that and look forward, as soon we possibly can get those numbers. Let’s just, for a hypothetical sense, assume that there are no dollars associated with that budget for the Three Valley Gap issue. Let’s just assume that that might be the case. Would this government be willing to provide extra dollars to deal with this issue? It needs to be dealt with right now. We can’t wait for another month.

We can’t wait for another two months. We certainly can’t wait for another year. Would the Premier be willing to commit to at least look- ing at the potential of putting some extra dollars towards…? Whether it’s a geoscience survey or whatever that takes, something needs to be done. Hon. J. Horgan:Certainly, I commit to ensuring that if there has not been geoscience work done in the past ten months or the past ten years, we get on that right away, because I do genuinely believe that our landscape is chan- ging. We see that with fires. We see that with floods. We see that with avalanche and rockfall.

We need to have a baseline, and if that work hasn’t been done, it needs to be done, so I’ll certainly commit to that. With respect to the budget numbers, until I know what they are, I can’t commit to increasing them or not. But we’ll get that information for the member, and I commend him for his tenacity on behalf of his constituents. Again, he said quite clearly that this is not something that I created, and I’m hopeful it’s something that I can solve. D. Clovechok:I appreciate those words very much. If you can solve it, then I tip my hat to you. Weather, no question, is an issue here.

I live in a moun- tainous area, and we know that we’ve got issues, whether they’re slides or what have you. But I do want to make sure that the Premier understands that it’s not just the weather that’s creating this. There’s something very wrong going on there. When you get boulders the size of that, those don’t come from cracks and fissures. With that, again, I want to thank you for that. I think that Shannon, back in Revelstoke, has heard today that you’re aware of this and that you’re going to act on it sooner than later — sooner, hopefully.

When you leave here today, you’re going to be getting on that phone and talking to your min- ister and saying: “Let’s move on this. ” It’s not because the MLA from Columbia River–Revelstoke asked to you do it. It’s nothing to do with me. It has to do with public safety and the health and well-being of the people in Revelstoke. Respectfully, Mr. Premier, that’s your job as the leader of this province. I want to thank you for the opportunity, and I’ll take my chair. Hon. J.

Horgan:I would just say to Shannon, either if she’s watching or if she gets a chance to read theBlues, that I now have a picture of her car — the devastation of her former car. I want to say to her that I’m grateful she is recovering and that I’ll keep a copy of that picture in my office as a reminder of the challenge in this area and the work that needs to be done. L. Throness:I have a few questions for the Premier as well. First of all, I want to thank him for leading us on a tour of the Fraser River last week. It was great that he came out to our community.

We very much appreciated him including MLAs on all sides of the House and making a non-partisan event, because we all pull together as British Columbians in the face of emergency. It seems that we have dodged the bullet this year. The Fraser is going down a little bit. We’re not out of the woods yet, but we’re hoping for the best, and so that’s good news. But we need to keep in mind the very keen sense of anxiety that we all felt last week as we were flying over the Fraser. We need to remember that feeling, because the next freshet is coming next May.

In the 2017 budget, the former government put $20 mil- lion in for flooding, and that comparatively small amount, when you compare it to the total need, went a long way. I’m wondering if the Premier has considered putting in some money this year. Perhaps if we have a lower fire season than we anticipate or something like that, whether some funds could be put toward municipalities to help them better pro- tect themselves next year…. [2:40 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:I want to thank the member, the Leader of the Official Opposition, his colleague from Chilliwack, as well as the member for Cowichan Valley.

That was a very informative tour we did together. As the member says, grate- fully and thankfully, we are not anticipating the significant flooding in the Fraser that was predicted at the time of, or just prior to, our visit. It did bring home very clearly…. The member and I shared a helicopter together. I can’t say that about everybody, you know. There are very few people I can say that about. The 5258 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

member and I shared a helicopter together. It was an oppor- tunity. I think it’s events like that that bring us closer togeth- er as legislators. The prospect of driving around the Cariboo with the member for Cariboo-Chilcotin…. As daunting as that may be, I’m looking forward to it, because it creates opportunities for dialogue. It creates opportunities for a better understand- ing of the challenges in areas that I don’t represent. I know,

chapter and verse, Langford–Juan de Fuca. And I would invite everyone to come there and spend their summer at the Sooke Potholes. Were it not for a fish closure, we could have fishing in Sooke. Y ou have to go all the way to Port Renfrew to catch a chinook now. But it’s engaging with people in com- munities that allows us to better understand the challenges that people face. The diking question that the member is alluding to is part and parcel of how the provincial government can help municipalities prepare for the eventuality of another high snowpack and a rapid melt.

It’s something that I now take more seriously. I don’t want to suggest that I diminished the importance of it prior to this, hon. Member, but nothing is better than seeing and having someone with local know- ledge, as I did in the tour with the member, tell you and advise you of what the changes are that are happening in real time, as a crisis is emerging. I learned a great deal from the trip, and I’m going to take that information back to the budget-making process next year and ask the very questions that the member has raised here as we’re preparing for Budget 2019.

Do we have addi- tional resources within our revenues to make expendit- ures, as the member suggests, to better prepare people? The ounce of prevention may well be very, very advant- ageous to the pound of cure that could result from a cata- strophic flooding event along the Fraser, particularly in the member’s community. L. Throness:I would simply remind the Premier of the enormous risk to infrastructure in the Fraser Valley. Some $30 billion is at risk. A comparatively small amount of money would help to reduce that risk.

It also appears that we have weather patterns that are changing, where we have a high snowfall and an early spring with hot weather early on. So we very much fear that we could go through the same freshet again next year, and we hope that this fiscal year, there could be some money applied to municipalities. I want to go on to talk about the tour that we were on last week, where the Premier met with Clem Seymour at Seabird Island. We made a stop there and heard from him. He talked about the traditional knowledge that he has of the river.

The Premier encouraged me to remind him of this, and so I’m following his instructions today. Would the Premier be willing to meet with Clem and oth- er First Nations to talk further about how we can mitigate the problem of the rising riverbed near those First Nations and other lands, which is causing them many problems? We would be happy to invite him out, or we’ d come to Victoria. We’ d make it as easy as possible for the Premier. We would like very much to speak to him about this issue and apply the traditional knowledge that First Nations have, in particular, to the solution to this problem. Hon. J.

Horgan:I thank the member for mentioning the visit we had with Chief Seymour at Seabird Island and the magnitude of the loss of land as a result of shifting weath- er patterns, the rise and fall of the river over time and the impact that has on that Indigenous community — and equally importantly, the impact it has on the lifeblood of British Columbia. The Fraser is iconic for many, but it is the lifeline for the member’s constituents and others in the region. [2:45 p.m.] The silver lining in the lack of a catastrophic event this spring is that it allows us to better prepare for that even- tuality in the future.

That means making the investments now that will assist municipalities, so that we don’t have to think of the unthinkable should a high snowpack and rap- id melt happen again next year or the year after that. That’s important. I’m not certain when my

schedule will allow me to visit Chilliwack again or to meet with Chief Seymour, but I have asked my deputy, already, on the return from the trip, to get my head around what we can do about the changing landscape, the hydrology of the Fraser River, particularly with respect to Seabird because of the controversy around gravel mining. We’ve already had illegal gravel mining in the area, as the member knows, up and down the river. That has an impact on where the river goes and how it flows. We have issues around extracting water from the aquifer for commercial purposes. That is controversial as well.

There’s a whole host of issues around the Fraser that I think we need to direct our attention to. Again, the value of having the opportunity to be with the member, who has local knowledge and local relationships, is that I now have a better understanding of the challenge. I commit to him, as I did to Chief Seymour, to get back to him on how we can proceed with that. E. Ross:To the Premier, for this session and the last ses- sion, I was trying to understand the mandate that was given to ministers, through the mandate letters, on implementing UNDRIP . I couldn’t get an answer.

In talking with the Attorney General yesterday, I think I’ve gotten an answer in terms of where the Attorney General sees UNDRIP being implemented. That was in relation to

section 35, especially the jurisprudence under

section 35, the constitution, which is really what I was getting at. I felt that UNDRIP was a political statement of principles, versus the case law of Aboriginal rights and title that the province has been trying to form policies under for the last 36 years or so. There are two issues with implementing UNDRIP , and I Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5259

want to categorize them. In terms of delivering programs and services…. For instance, working with the Aboriginal Justice Council in terms of working out the justice system and how you implement some of the principles of UNDRIP is great. That’s perfect. What you do in terms of health — that’s good. Y ou want to put a highway in. That’s good.

But really, what I was getting at was: how do you imple- ment UNDRIP in relation to the infringement of rights and title, especially when we’re talking about the duty to consult and accommodate and, ultimately, the decision that govern- ment has to make at some point when they’re dealing with the infringements of rights and title? In one case, it’s fine to consult and work with a group — with the Aboriginal Justice Council, for example — in terms of implementing UNDRIP .

But in another case, when you’re dealing with rights and title, that is not a preferred method, mainly because the rights and title are held on behalf of the community, which by the way, your Attorney General con- firmed as well. So in trying to implement UNDRIP , in terms of infringe- ments of rights and title, does the Premier have a plan for how to communicate any policy decision-making or any types of methods to deal with that at a high level, a general level, not a specific level? [2:50 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:There’s a lot of content in the member’s comments so I’ll just start with bits and pieces.

I assume we’re going to have an exchange of questions and answers here so I’ll try and not be comprehensive at the beginning. We’ll build to more complete answers when the questions become clearer. Certainly, I agree with the member that rights and title and true partnership and reconciliation are the objectives of any government interaction with Indigenous communities in an UNDRIP environment. We’ve been working with what we call a principles document that was begun by the previ- ous government, working with the leadership council. We’ve made some amendments.

There have been some suggestions by the leadership council that elements that were removed by the previous government be returned to the document. So we’ve been back and forth on that. Ultimately, however, it’s not just the leadership council that government needs to engage with on principles of reconciliation; it’s directly with Indigenous communities in every corner of the province. I know the member for Skeena fully understands that from his former leadership role in his community. Our objectives are to find ways forward through what have been very complex issues — through

section 35, through the Tsilhqot’in decision and the consequences of that, as well as successive Supreme Court rulings. Our view, my personal view and what I’m trying to move through my government, whether it be through the Minister of Indigen- ous Relations or others, is to find areas where we can have genuine partnership and reconciliation, community by com- munity with rights holders, as they emerge, so that we can have genuine reconciliation over time. Now, that takes a different shape, as the member knows, based on the community and based on the issue.

But I believe that working with the federal government, which is also embarked on a path of reconciliation and embracing the principles of UNDRIP , makes for a very exciting time in British Columbia. We have two governments coming togeth- er at a time in history where there’s a genuine desire within communities, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to have true reconciliation and to ensure that certainty on the land base will lead to economic activity that benefits all British Colum- bians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous. E. Ross:That’s correct.

There was a lot of content in that question — only because there are very few people in B.C. or Canada that understand the real principles behind the case law that’s pursuant to

section 35 of the constitution, and I’m including Aboriginal leaders. Y ou really have to have a law degree to understand the principles behind it, let alone trying to implement that in a government decision-making context, let alone political. That was my whole concern around implementing UNDRIP . I didn’t understand it in the context of the case law around

section 35. That’s all I’ve been trying to do for the last two sessions. I’ve been trying to clarify how this would be implemented, given the extensive reviews, I’m assuming, that the previous government did, either through the Justice Institute of B.C. or with outside legal expertise. [2:55 p.m.] My mistake in not clarifying another question yesterday with the Attorney General. He confirmed everything that I thought about case law versus UNDRIP yesterday, especially viewing UNDRIP through the lens of

section 35. That was all I was getting at. I was glad…. I forgot to thank the Attorney General for that clarification. But it was my mistake that I didn’t clarify one of the ques- tions I had. Ultimately, what I was trying to get at was: has this government done a full assessment, a legal assessment, on how the government will implement UNDRIP in terms of the jurisdiction, in terms of the decision-making, in terms of any policies that the government will be implementing or trying to assess on its own? I wasn’t really looking for any type of information that would breach the client-solicitor privilege.

I wasn’t looking for that, like on a specific file. I was just trying to under- stand if there had been a full legal review on implementing UNDRIP , especially when this government acknowledges that they’re viewing UNDRIP through the lens of

section 35 and the jurisprudence underneath that. That was my question. So I’ll ask the Premier: has the government done, or plans to do, a full legal assessment of implementing UNDRIP through the lens of

section 35 of the constitution? Hon. J. Horgan:I very much thank the member for his 5260 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

interventions in these estimates today. This is an area of par- ticular interest to me. Why I crafted the letters to my minis- ters the way I did was so that we could try and resolve what is a complex area. The member makes reference to case law and

section 35. We had Calder. We had Sparrow. We had Haida. We had Delgamuukw. We now have Tsilhqot’in. Governments have been playing catch-up as the courts have set new boundaries and parameters around rights and title as it pertains to sec- tion 35 and other issues. That, in my mind, coming into government, was an issue that we should try and get in front of, rather than continuing to play catch-up.

We’ve had multiple, extensive meetings of cabinet specifically on the questions of rights and title, reconciliation and how we manage a treaty process — which is a quarter of a century old, meeting the needs of some and absolutely not meeting the needs of other communities, and then those who did not participate at all. I know that this is nothing new to the member. He knows these issues very, very well.

He also understands the chal- lenges of making sure that we harmonize the federal and provincial, the two representatives of the Crown, when we’re engaging with Indigenous communities when it comes to their rights and title and recognition of those rights. [3:00 p.m.] What we’ve been trying to do is to get ahead of the case law rather than react to it. We’ve been doing our level best, in the direction I’ve given to the ministers, to look at all of the legislation that they’re responsible for and view it with the lens of how we amend this legislation to meet the principles of UNDRIP .

That’s the starting point, and it’s not something that will happen with a date certain. It will be a process that will evolve over time. The ten principles that the federal government announced recently have also been very timely for us, a new government that is directing officials to move toward an understanding of how we can take the federal principles and amend them to meet the needs of British Columbia.

Of course, as the mem- ber will know, unceded territory in British Columbia makes it a much more complicated situation than you would find in other jurisdictions where treaties have been established and rights and title are differently interpreted. From a unique B.C. perspective, we’re anxious to work with the federal government — as the member knows well — on the principles. We have an Indigenous Justice Minister from British Columbia who understands full well the issues here.

We want to work cooperatively with the federal gov- ernment to make sure that when we meet with Indigenous communities in the fall and the regular meeting of the lead- ers gathering, and every day after that, we’re making progress on the issues that the member cares so passionately about. S. Bond:Good afternoon to the Premier and his staff. I want to just make a comment about one issue that’s been raised by one of my colleagues, and then I have a specific question before I return the floor. I know the Leader of the Opposition has a lot of questions.

I want to encourage the Premier to have a discussion with the Minister of Finance about the real estate situation. Dur- ing the estimates process, we took the time to ask questions and to probe about whether or not it was possible to encour- age, through a…. It’s a regulatory process. The Finance Minister has every opportunity to say to the superintendent of real estate: “This is going too quickly. There are details that are very com- plicated for real estate brokers and agents across British Columbia. ” There is time to take a pause and actually look at that issue.

Hundreds of realtors across British Columbia are upset about that, and I would encourage the Premier to fol- low up, as he committed that he would. My question relates to the employer health tax. I simply want to ask a couple of questions. The Premier, in an editori- al board in theVancouver Sun, said that the tax increases that were in the platform were the only tax increases in the first term of his government. I’m wondering if the Premier could explain how that changed and British Columbians were sur- prised with the introduction of an employer health tax? [3:05 p.m.] Hon. J.

Horgan:I thank the member for her participation today in the estimates process. What we said during the elec- tion campaign — and what I’m proud that we’ve been able to accomplish in the short time we’ve been in government — was to do away with the flat, regressive, medical services premium tax. That was part and parcel of the platform. That platform also included ensuring that the revenues were there to provide the services people need. We have opted for an employer health tax, consistent with taxes sim- ilar to those used in other jurisdictions.

We will now be the last and final jurisdiction to do away with flat medical ser- vices premiums. I’m very proud of that. S. Bond: I’m not here to debate whether or not the gov- ernment said they were going to eliminate the MSP premi- ums. What I am here to point out is that the Premier told British Columbians that the only taxes that would be increased were the ones in the platform. So he managed to surprise small business, municipalities, colleges, non-profits, with an ongoing — and, in many cases, higher — tax. Those are simply the facts. Well, the Premier can smile, but those are the facts.

My concern today remains what it was when we had a dis- cussion with the Finance Minister. There have been continu- al promises made by a variety of ministers and the Premi- er, telling British Columbians who are impacted by this tax, employers, but the most difficult one to understand is non- profits. They have been told by this government that they’re going to make them whole. They’re going to fix it; they’re going to do something. While the Premier continues to say, “The details don’t really matter. We’ll figure that out.

It’ll hap- pen because the taxes aren’t in place yet, ” non-profits today are waiting for an answer from this government about how Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5261

they will be expected to make up significant impacts on their organizations. My question to the Premier is: is he prepared today to assure non-profits, in particular — and others impacted by the employer health tax — that he is going to meet the com- mitment that many ministers on his side made and hold those organizations whole? Hon. J. Horgan:We want to make sure we get the imple- mentation right on this. It won’t take effect until January 1. We continue to consult with a broad group of stakeholders.

We’re listening attentively to the input we’re getting from all corners of the province, and I’m confident the member will have her answer shortly. B. D’Eith:I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members B. D’Eith:I’ d just like to introduce Helen Homer, who’s come here from our constituency. She’s in the gallery. Thank you very much. Debate Continued S. Bond: I guess I simply want to urge the Premier and his Minister of Finance to end the anxiety and the concern that are being expressed by organizations all across British Columbia. There’s been lots of feedback.

In fact, I am pre- pared to wager that pretty much every MLA in this House has had a deluge of emails, concerns and visits — organiz- ations marching into our offices saying: “We can’t manage this. It means laying off staff.

It means cutting services and ending programs. ” If the Premier is prepared to say publicly, which he has, that we’re going to fix this, I think it’s time to fix it now and make sure that these organizations can end the anxiety that they feel, that the people that they work with feel. [3:10 p.m.] I simply want to end my comments by saying that it’s time to either fix it or clarify the details for the people of British Columbia who are going to be deeply impacted by the sur- prise tax that this government imposed on them. A.

Wilkinson:I’m going to take the Premier back to the budget book, page 80, if he’ d like to have a look. On the right- hand column, it refers to the speculation tax and says: “The tax will be administered by the province outside of the normal property tax system and property tax cycle.

The province will issue notices by mail that will direct residential property owners to a Ministry of Finance website that will contain an electronic tax form…. “To make the administration easier, the form will collect relevant information from the taxpayer, including social insurance number, household information, information on worldwide income, information relating to upfront exemptions and other information identified by the Ministry of Finance. ” It goes on to say that the relevant information will be shared with the Canada Revenue Agency.

The question to the Premier is: when is this notice going to go out, and when will the information be collected? Hon. J. Horgan:I welcome the questions from the Leader of the Official Opposition. Legislation to implement the speculation tax won’t be in this Legislature until the fall, so the information can’t be collected until that time. I would also, while I’m on my feet…. In questions yes- terday with respect to western marine bases which were part of the approval process of the Trans Mountain pipeline, not part of the ocean protection plan….

As we were engaging in the conversation, an announcement was made that the WCMRC projects, the six bases, would resume, effective yesterday evening. So those issues that we were mixing between the ocean protection plan and the requirements of the proponent appear, at least on the surface of the requirements of the proponent, to be back on track. I wanted to share that with the member and the committee at the earliest opportunity. A. Wilkinson:Roughly three hours ago the Premier gave a press conference outside in which he said that the specula- tion tax and the employer health tax do not apply until next year.

Is that correct? Hon. J. Horgan:Y eah, they do not take effect until Janu- ary 1, 2019. A. Wilkinson:If we turn to page 66 of the budget doc- ument, it says that in the 2018-19 fiscal year, there’ll be $87 million of speculation tax collected. If the legislation is not available until September, disclosure documents are not going to be available and returned until at least Christmas. One has to wonder how on earth you’re going to collect $87 million in the remainder of this fiscal year. [3:15 p.m.] Hon. J.

Horgan:The revenues that are booked will be col- lected on the basis of the 2018 property tax year and the 2018-19 tax year. That’s how you get the amount from Janu- ary to the end of the fiscal in the ’18-19 tax year. A. Wilkinson:I’m going to suggest to you, Premier, that that answer has no credibility whatsoever. The legislation won’t be ready until the fall. It won’t be passed and won’t get royal assent until later in the fall. Then there’ll be the collection of information from over one million households — one million households.

That information has to be pro- cessed, and exemptions have to be examined to see whether this speculation tax will apply to that household. Then there has to be a collection period. The collection 5262 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

period will take months, as there’ll be delay in filing by tens of thousands of homeowners who don’t know wheth- er the rules apply to them. And then there’s the collection period as well. It is completely implausible, Premier, that you’re going to collect a STOB period of three months of revenue on an annualized basis. Can you please explain to the people of British Columbia how your budget has any credibility, when there’s an $87 million hole in it because you didn’t figure out how to collect taxes on a new program? Hon. J. Horgan:Well, I guess I just don’t share the mem- ber’s pessimism. New programs….

The child care program, for example, has had tremendous uptake. We’ll see legisla- tion this fall, and the member will have his opportunity to debate its value at that time. A. Wilkinson:With all due respect, that answer is even worse than the previous one. Y ou need royal assent to intro- duce tax legislation. Y ou need to have taxation policies imposed and fully implemented. Y our deputy minister is abundantly familiar with the process of tax application, administration and collection. It will take at least six months to collect the necessary information and to collect the reven- ue associated with it.

Premier, I’m going to ask you one last time: is there an $87 million hole in your budget? Y ou have generated a budget that is based on a completely implausible tax admin- istration program that is not possible in terms of implement- ation. So one last time, Premier: will you have an $87 mil- lion revenue from the speculation tax in this fiscal year? Or is that simply not plausible? [3:20 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:There is no hole in the budget. We’ll meet our targets. A. Wilkinson:In recent years, the term “plausible denial” has come up, and that simply does not apply in this circum- stance, Premier.

That answer has no credibility whatsoever. So let’s go on to another zone. Let’s talk about your free- dom of information and your staff. A quote from you, Octo- ber 28, 2015: “The public is not well served when senior rep- resentatives — being paid a princely sum, to boot — are not recording their actions on a daily basis. That is, in my opin- ion, an affront to our basic institutions. ” John Horgan in the Times Colonist. The Chair:Mr. Leader, just provide a title. A.

Wilkinson:Y et we found out in recent days that the Minister of Citizens’ Services, the Minister of Advanced Education, the Minister of Public Safety, the Government House Leader, the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation, Kate Van Meer-Mass, Layne Clark, Suzanne Christensen, Stephanie Papik, Christine Kennedy, Amber Nash and Maria Del Matta disclosed no records whatsoever when asked for disclosure of all emails, text messages, BBMs, Slack messages and WhatsApp messages. Premier, how can that possibly be reconciled with your remarks to theTimes Colonisttwo years ago? Hon. J.

Horgan:I did set a high standard with respect to the new government’s ability to live within the rules of the Freedom of Information Act, and we haven’t met that standard. I asked my deputy minister to have all information that had been removed from computers as “no records” responses brought back into the system. They’re being gone through now, and we’re reviewing the freedom-of-informa- tion requests that came from the opposition for information.

The good news is that there was no mandate to triple- delete information, as was the case with the previous admin- istration, so it was an easy matter to retrieve the information. Now the hard work of going through those records to ensure that we’re complying with the Freedom of Information Act is underway. I will also say that we are renewing the training proced- ures for new staff and existing staff to make sure we live up to the high standard that I expect from my office and other offices as part of executive council. A.

Wilkinson:So the obvious question arises: has the Premier reported these people to the Information and Pri- vacy Commissioner so that they can go through the appro- priate level of sanctions or retraining or otherwise be correc- ted in their ways by the Privacy Commissioner, when they completely failed to meet the standard that he laid out in the media less than 30 months ago? What is the sanction for this behaviour? Hon. J.

Horgan:My deputy has been in contact with the Information and Privacy Commissioner, and he has been advised of the actions we’re taking to see if any informa- tion that should have been released was not released. We don’t know that that’s the case. These could all be transit- ory records.

We have also, through my deputy, been in consultation with the commissioner and advised that we’re going to be increasing the rigour of our training processes for existing staff and any new staff so that we can meet the high test that I expect, not just from myself and my colleagues but from those who work for us as well. [3:25 p.m.] A. Wilkinson:Of course, having been involved in elec- tronic discovery myself in the past, it is extremely expensive to reinstate emails from servers when the emails have been deleted. This is a tedious and costly process.

So the obvious question arises: why did this happen in the first place? Did the Premier not instruct his staff at all in terms of the stand- ards he expects for their ethical and professional behaviour? Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5263

Hon. J. Horgan:I’ll just dispute one of the statements the member made with respect to the cost of retrieving this information. The new government does not have a mandate to triple-delete information, so retrieving it has been less costly than he would suggest. Perhaps the technologies have improved over time since he was doing discovery. I would also say that we did our level best — I did my level best — to give instruction to my senior staff to ensure that all members of the executive council and all of the staff that work for them had sufficient training to meet the standard that I set.

That training took place on multiple occasions, a dozen training sessions over a reasonable period, a number of months, after the new government was sworn in. Again, I would argue that when these issues arose, I took responsibility for them, as I should. I did set a high standard because of the appallingly low level of retrieval of documents under the previous administration that led to a report from the freedom-of-information and privacy com- missioner with recommendations that we will do our level best to adhere to. We missed the mark, Member. I acknow- ledge that.

And I’m going to do everything I can to make sure it doesn’t happen again. A.

Wilkinson:Well, Premier, given the high profile of this matter during your time on this side of the House, given that your Solicitor General, who is responsible for law enforce- ment, was one of the perpetrators here, and given that your Minister of Advanced Education has experience in this House and should have known better from all of the vitriol that came from this side of the House when we were in gov- ernment on this very issue, and given the gravity of the situ- ation, resulting in criminal convictions related to this, cer- tainly someone’s head should roll over this. Was the training deficient?

Did your senior staff fail to implement the train- ing? Who dropped the ball, Premier? That’s the question. Hon. J. Horgan:Just for the record, the criminal convic- tions the member refers to were Liberal Party staffers. I want the record to certainly reflect that. The question of lopping off heads in a show trial format, as the member suggests, is not in the interest of better out- comes, I would argue. I think that reinvigorating the training process…. Certainly, my senior officials who are here know full well my profound disappointment in this matter.

I again reflect that directly to the member, through you, hon. Chair. We’re going to do better. That’s as simple as that. I’m not going to punish people for not doing the best they could, but I expect a high standard, and if I don’t see it, we’ll take action at that time. A. Wilkinson: Before I move on, it seems that it can be summarized that the Premier’s approach is: “There are lots of rules. Y ou’ll get trained in them. We’ll attack the government when we’re in opposition on this very basis. ” But when it comes to this Premier forming government: “Don’t worry about it.

If you blow it on repeated occasions — dozens of people in senior positions, including senior ministers with $2 billion budgets — it’s just fine. There’s no sanction. Don’t worry about it. We’ll blow off the opposi- tion. ” Is that correct, Premier? Hon. J. Horgan: Well, sanctimony sits well for the member. I welcome him to carry on this line of question- ing. I have acknowledged my responsibility in not mak- ing it abundantly clear to my colleagues in the executive council and staff that I hold them to a higher standard. But I’m not punishing anyone for not meeting that test.

I’m redoubling our efforts to make sure the training is in place so they can do a better job in the future. That characterizes a better way to get good outcomes than punishing people who made mistakes. [3:30 p.m.] A. Wilkinson:Well, before I move on, perhaps it’s a fair

summary that punishing people for breaking the law doesn’t seem to be in the mandate of this Premier. People can ignore the rules even though they’re trained to do otherwise, and there is no sanction whatsoever. It’s just: “Carry on, and we’ll cover for you. ” That’s a pretty sad ethical standard to set, for this government, but perhaps we’ll have to get used to that. Moving on, perhaps the Premier can provide one specific example of what his Municipal Affairs Minister has done in speeding up the municipal development approval process. Hon. J.

Horgan:I’ll just remind the member, going back to the previous question, that the criminal activity that was undertaken by representatives of the B.C. Liberal Party that led to charges and a conviction were outside of the bounds of the act. There are no sanctions in the act. I’ll remind those here that a woman, Ms. Cadario, the deputy chief of staff to the former Premier, was triple-deleting on a regular basis. There were no sanctions for her. A guy named Nick Facey who worked for the B.C. Liberals was doing the same thing. There were no sanctions for him.

Those who commit- ted criminal acts, were charged and convicted — it was on the B.C. Liberal watch. I want to set a higher standard for freedom of information and privacy. Everyone expects that, they know it, and it’s going to continue into the future.

With respect to the very good work of the Minister of Municipal Affairs, she is working collaboratively with UBCM and regional municipal officials to make sure that we can find ways to break the impasse when it comes to devel- opment permits and bringing more housing supply into the marketplace to meet the needs of British Columbians, needs that were sadly neglected for 16 years by the previous gov- ernment. A. Wilkinson: The Premier describes the relationship with municipalities and development permits as an impasse.

How is that going to help in alleviating a housing crisis? 5264 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

Interjection. A. Wilkinson:Y ou said exactly that, Premier. No, you said there was an impasse over development permit issuance. We can check the transcript if the Premier wants to go into further denial, but this is perhaps a continuation of deny- ing the facts and denying the past. We can delete emails en masse and say: “Oh gosh, we’re sorry. ” We can deny what we said moments ago. Premier, let’s get down to the details. Has your Municipal Affairs Minister done anything at all to improve the speed of approving development permits in our municipalities? Hon. J.

Horgan:Well, certainly the Minister of Municipal Affairs is also responsible for housing and transit — I think a mix that the member will know is critically important. [R. Chouhan in the chair.] If we’re going to build a new housing supply and increase density, we need to be able to move people around.

Making sure that transit hubs are an integral part of that develop- ment is, of course, important to everybody. [3:35 p.m.] The minister has been working — a good example would be — in the Tri-Cities where, working together, the com- munities in that area are seeing positive outcomes, and they’re working hard to make sure that development approvals get in place in a timely manner. We’re going to continue that collaborative approach, working hand in hand with municipalities to try and get the outcomes that people want to see. A.

Wilkinson:Y esterday we canvassed, at some length, the issues related to Kinder Morgan. Of course, there’s now a new owner in the wings. Financial close is expected in August. Of course, we all recall the April 15 meeting in Ottawa between Premier Notley, our Premier and the Prime Minis- ter. The obvious question is, with the federal government tak- ing over the pipeline in complete ownership…. That invokes federal jurisdiction and federal ownership, just like a milit- ary base or an airport.

So given that federal paramountcy both in legislation and in ownership, is there any point what- soever in the Premier continuing his court reference given that the federal government will be the respondent? Hon. J. Horgan:My legal advisers tell me that this is a contested area of jurisdiction. The specific wording of the reference and the regulation, as the member canvassed yes- terday, does not talk about a particular project. It talks about a product and the consequences of that product to our nat- ural environment. We believe it’s a worthy undertaking, and we’re going to continue with the reference. A.

Wilkinson:Has the Premier’s Office or, for that matter, anyone in this government had contact with the federal gov- ernment about the futility of this court reference given that the new owner will be the government of Canada — that is, all of us, as taxpayers? If not, has the Premier obtained some legal opinions about whether or not it’s a useful exercise to continue this litigation? Hon. J. Horgan:The new circumstances have certainly led to legal counsel working with the Attorney General to review what potential outcomes may well be.

I spoke directly to the Prime Minister earlier in the week, advised him that we’re going to continue on with the reference case. He saw no problem in that. This is an area of contested jurisdiction, and we’re going to see how it falls. A. Wilkinson:Has the Prime Minister ever suggested or advised the Premier that his court reference is an exercise in futility given the federal paramountcy and their ability to simply pass legislation, claim national interests and, just like a military base, say: “Get out of the way. It’s a federal project”? Hon. J.

Horgan: Well, obviously, federal officials have their view and we have ours. That’s why a reference to the courts is relevant to both parties — to get a better under- standing of where the jurisdiction rests on these issues. The member would know that. A. Wilkinson: By saying here today, and perhaps the Premier will deny this as well, that federal officials have their views and you have yours — that the federal officials appar- ently are telling the Premier this is an exercise in futility…. Will the Premier tell us today what the federal position is?

Or is he going to hide behind solicitor-client privilege, which really doesn’t apply here? [3:40 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:As I said yesterday, the reference is deal- ing with areas that we want to determine are within our jur- isdiction to regulate. That’s why we’re in the Court of Appeal, as I said. The member may want to take my words and use them to his advantage. I’ll say it again. It’s well canvassed in the media that the federal government has their view. At no time has the federal government said to me that they have any legislation planned, as he suggests.

When I said to the Prime Minister this week that we were carrying on, he seemed to have other issues on his plate, and they’re significant ones. The member will know that. Anoth- er day, another tweet, another trade dispute. Our aluminum industry is again put at risk and steel in Canada is put at risk because of the actions of the U.S. administration. The federal government is working very effectively to try and represent the interests of British Columbia in that regard. Again, I’ d have to say that our relationship is a positive one, despite this one issue.

It is our right as a province to Thursday, May 31, 2018 British Columbia Debates 5265

seek clarification on jurisdiction, and that’s exactly what we’re doing. A. Wilkinson:It is a good thing for British Columbia if the relationship is positive, because we’re deeply depend- ent on the federal government for the well-being of British Columbians. When I hear that the relationship is positive except this one, it would seem to indicate that the federal government has completely dismissed out of hand the Premier’s effort in the courts since they’ve taken ownership of the pipeline. Perhaps we can just summarize the state of affairs.

The federal government is now about to take ownership of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. The federal government is com- mitted to building the expansion of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. They have said the expansion will be built. They have not put in money for the coastal protection program yet, because the Premier obstructed it for more than a year. We now have difficult relationships with Alberta and Saskatchewan because of the Premier’s high-handed con- duct, which has amounted to nothing, and we’ve used up a lot of federal goodwill in the process.

We have a reference case in which the Premier is not willing to tell us what the federal position is. It certainly sounds as if the federal posi- tion is to dismiss it out of hand as an exercise in futility and a political stunt. We have the cost of employing Arvay Finlay to litigate the matter, even if it is futile. Perhaps in

summary we can say: what does the Premier have to show for his efforts over the last eight months except a potentially futile court reference, having lost all credibility with the federal government at the expense of all of us as fed- eral taxpayers? Hon. J. Horgan:Again, I would consign the member’s

summary to the fiction section. I have a very positive rela- tionship with the government of Saskatchewan. They contin- ue to be a vital part of the relationship I have with people right across the country. The federal government is in regu- lar contact with us on a host of issues. Having a dispute on one issue often happens in com- munities. It happens in families; it happens in the Legis- lature. For the

summary that was just put forward by the Leader of the Opposition that somehow the world has come to an end because there’s a disagreement between the federal and provincial governments…. Like that’s never happened in Canada? Come on, man. R. Sultan:I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members R.

Sultan:In the galleries behind me, out of sight — somebody is peering over the rail, though, so I’m sure they’re there — we have 27 students from grade 7 of Cleveland Ele- mentary School in North Vancouver, accompanied by three parents and their teacher, Suzanne Simpson, who teaches in the French immersion division of Cleveland Elementary. Cleveland is one of the outstanding elementary schools in school district 44, and we’re very proud, on the North Shore, that these schools consistently rate near the top in terms of academic achievement and other activities.

Would the House please make these students of political science welcome. Debate Continued A. Wilkinson: On the further issue of petroleum, pipelines and oil transportation, can the Premier advise what level of notification occurs to the provincial government when oil is shipped by rail down the Fraser Canyon on the CP and CN rail lines? And can we have an understanding of what the volume was during the period of 2013 to 2017? [3:45 p.m.] Hon. J. Horgan:We don’t currently have that information at our disposal. Perhaps we can move to another question, and we’ll come back to this when the information arrives.

Interjection. The Chair:Let me call…. I’ll recognize, and then you start. Leader of the Opposition. A. Wilkinson:Given the passage of time and that we’re in the last day of the session, I’m hoping that this isn’t an eva- sion tactic. I’ll ask a very simple question. What level of disclosure is required of the railways, which are federal undertakings under the constitution and are not regulated by the province, in terms of disclosure of the cargos — whether they’re haz- ardous or crude oil or diluted bitumen or otherwise? [3:50 p.m.] Hon. J.

Horgan:We just had confirmed by both the Min- istries of Environment and Transportation that that inform- ation is held by the federal government, and it is not cur- rently shared with the province. A. Wilkinson:From that answer, it’s abundantly clear that the Premier and the entire civil service have no idea what- soever how much crude oil and diluted bitumen are coming down the Fraser Canyon every day, every week, every year.

So the reference case that refers to the largest annual amounts in each of the four preceding years is of no utility whatsoever in regulating oil by rail because the federal gov- ernment and the railways don’t tell you. This appears to be a completely pointless exercise — to say that the province wants to get a declaration and will limit the expansion of diluted bitumen transfer and crude oil trans- 5266 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 31, 2018

fer by rail when that information isn’t available at all and the Premier has no idea and no jurisdictional way to find out how much is being shipped by rail. Perhaps the Premier can clarify. What’s the point of having a constitutional reference that will limit the amount of diluted bitumen or crude oil travelling by rail when the Premier has no access to that information and no ability to verify it at all? Hon. J. Horgan:Well, the very point of having the ref- erence is to allow us to have the jurisdiction to collect that information so we can protect citizens along that rail cor- ridor.

That’s the whole point of the reference: to ensure that we are obliged to issue permits before the product can transit British Columbia. That’s the point. A. Wilkinson:The Premier knows full well that railways have been coming to Vancouver from Alberta since 1885, and there’s been no disclosure of the oil and diluted bitumen content ever. The Premier now suggests he’s going to invent that authority with his constitutional reference, which is a laughable proposition. The courts are not going to create jurisdiction that hasn’t existed for 133 years, Premier.

So perhaps you can explain to us what on earth this reference is going to do to limit, change or otherwise regulate oil by rail, because it’s clear you have no control over it now. Hon. J. Horgan:The point of seeking the jurisdictional clarification is so that we have the right to collect that infor- mation to protect Britis

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20180531pm-Hansard-n148
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20180531pm Hansard n148
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2bc968e1523af6cc584e5cd13119111bc52c503a

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