May 29, 1998 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIII No. 35

The House met at 9:00 a.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Statements by

Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House today that work can

proceed immediately on school construction projects in Districts 4 and 9 as a result of an

interim agreement announced late yesterday by the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation and

the Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: I am referring specifically to projects at Dunne

Memorial Academy, Dunne Primary, and St. Anne's School in District 9, and St. Joseph's

High School in District 4. The projects total $4.3 million and affect over 600 students.

As a result of this agreement, Mr. Speaker, work will begin soon and

parents and children in those two districts can be assured that the necessary projects

will be completed in time for the 1998-1999 school year beginning in September.

I want to congratulate both groups on the interim agreement for

Districts 4 and 9 and for realizing the importance of getting on with those projects now

since time is of the essence for the next school year. Obviously, they have placed a high

priority on the children and their education.

Both the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation and the Newfoundland and

Labrador School Boards Association have agreed to submit outstanding differences over

other properties to a mediation process as soon as possible.

In conclusion, I want to wish the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation

and the Newfoundland and Labrador School Board Association continued success in their

negotiations as it relates to all other school properties.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House always support reaching an agreement in a

properly constituted forum. We are not advocates of threats to reach agreement. In fact, I

understand that discussions were ongoing and they were moving along. We certainly support

it. We want to see construction get under way, because I am fairly familiar with the

situation in Dunne Memorial Academy and the situation out in that area. We are delighted

to see things proceed there.

I certainly hope the other outstanding areas on properties and that

will be done within the time frames that are set down by the act, I think we passed last

year, January of 1999, and done in a very orderly manner without affecting adversely any

students here in our Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I informed the House of the agricultural

awareness campaign that we have initiated. As stated, the goal of the campaign is to raise

the public awareness of agricultural products produced in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, the cranberry industry is developing. Our department is

investigating the potential to commercially produce cranberries in the Province. It is

well known to all members that there is an abundance of edible wild berries throughout our

Province. Two of the biggest deterrents in developing a berry producing industry have been

low prices and the high cost to establishing an operation. However, the recent increase in

consumption of cranberries, combined with medical research on the benefits of this

product, have made the industry more viable and have triggered major expansion in North

American markets.

Difficulties in securing land for industry development in other

jurisdiction have led a number of major growers and processors to look for expansion of

their operations into new locations. Open peatlands, which are ideal sites for

cranberries, cover a land area of approximately 1.6 million hectares in our Province and

thus present a major opportunity.

In order to determine which type of cranberry will perform well in the

Province, a variety of trials have been established at our department's Pynn's Brook

station on the West Coast. Four varieties of cranberries were planted and cultivated.

Newfoundland and Labrador has never cultivated cranberries. As a result, it appears we may

be free of major cranberry pests that occur elsewhere. In order to maintain this

advantage, no importation of cranberry vines will be permitted into the Province.

Cranberry vines which are cut and baled in the same matter as hay will be developed.

Mr. Speaker, the department will soon be in a position to seek

expressions of interest to commercially produce cranberries in the Province. It is our

intention to see this industry grow, and we are working with the Department of Development

and Rural Renewal and the minister, and will be finalizing a cranberry development

strategy for the Province. This is an opportunity for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I fully support the minister in his bid to have this new industry

develop. I shouted to the minister, the Government House Leader. I am expecting him to

rise every day on all those good news statements and announce the buffalo ranch that he

had talked about that was going to provide so many opportunities here in this Province

just a couple of short years ago. We await that announcement with great interest because I

think it will create a lot of opportunities.

Very seriously, Mr. Speaker, I compliment the minister because I think

we have to start looking at the things that grow naturally here in this Province; not only

cranberries, I say to the minister, but blueberries, partridgeberries, bakeapples. I know

there are some initiatives already. I think of the winery out in Whitbourne that uses some

of those berries. I think of the industry, I think it is Indian Bay Foods, down in the

minister's district, down in Centreville, that has some positive things there.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Down in my own district there is an initiative

right now taking place where harvesting -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I think I have leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: No leave?

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Here comes the buffalo; this is it.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to provide members of this House with a

status report on the Province's new approach to regional economic development.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: In fifteen years' time you will announce this.

Members will be aware that a centrepiece of this government's approach

to regional economic development is to engage all relevant stakeholders to participate in

identifying, prioritizing and actioning business and economic development opportunities in

all areas of the Province. This is now happening on regional basis through the Regional

Economic Development Boards established in the twenty economic zones throughout

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that eighteen of the twenty boards

have completed their strategic economic plans. In developing these plans, the REDBs

consulted with and drew upon the knowledge and expertise of key economic stakeholders and

the public at large in their respective areas.

Mr. Speaker, all members of this House are aware -

I have the wrong page here, or they are mixed up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: That is Chuck.

Now the REDBS are working with partners in their zones to implement the

economic development activities outlined in their strategic economic plans. The REDBs are

the coordinators and, where necessary, catalysts for these regional economic development

activities. For example: The Southwestern Marine and Mountain Zone Corporation has signed

an agreement with Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited which establishes an environmentally

and economically feasible forestry management system for sustainable harvesting in Zone 10

on the West Coast.

The recent announcement concerning the snowmobile tourism product

development initiative along the West Coast and in Central Newfoundland had its genesis in

the activities of the Snowmobile Federation and a number of REDBs in Western and Central

Newfoundland, whose support for this initiative was crucial to its success.

The first Memorandum of Understanding between a REDB and a provincial

government line department has been signed between the Labrador Straits Development

Corporation and the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. This agreement outlines a

partnership approach to the development of a diversified, sustainable fishery in the

Straits.

Mr. Speaker, one of my responsibilities is to Chair the Cabinet

Committee on Rural Revitalization. Over the past number of months the Committee has

travelled the Province to meet with seventeen of the Regional Economic Development Boards.

Each board has presented their economic plans to the Cabinet Committee, and we are

encouraged and excited by the very real development opportunities that are emerging.

For our part, we have requested each board to draw from their strategic

economic plans the five or six top priority development initiatives for early

implementation. All seventeen of the REDBs visited have submitted initiatives with a

number of them already under way. The Cabinet Committee is committed to fast-tracking the

advancement of all the identified opportunities wherever possible.

Mr. Speaker, all members of this House are aware that there are no

magical solutions or quick fixes to the economic challenges facing our rural communities.

Rebuilding and diversifying the provincial economy is an ongoing and long-term goal. For

most of our history, we have not acted collectively. Most communities and many of the key

stakeholders have acted independently, or in isolation of one another, to advance narrow

economic interests.

The newly established Regional Economic Development Boards provide a

new mechanism for taking a broader regional and collective approach to economic growth

opportunities and strategies throughout the Province. The strategic economic plans will

provide all partners with a basis for co-ordinated and focused supports. The common

denominator in all plans is that they are designed to pave the way for private sector led

economic growth, through business formation, expansion and diversification.

Mr. Speaker, I encourage all members on both sides of this House to

meet with and continue to work with the Regional Economic Development Boards in your area

as they move from the planning to the action phase of their mandates. This government is

committed to working with the boards to seize all opportunities for economic growth in the

Province.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad to respond to the minister's statement. I thank the minister

for giving me a copy before coming to the House today.

There is no doubt about it that people at the grass roots level in

these boards are putting plans in place, working from the grass roots up, to try to get

something moving in rural Newfoundland and Labrador where we desperately need jobs today.

There is no doubt about it that a plan is needed and these people have to be involved at

the grass roots level, and I commend those people.

I speak to the boards. As a matter of fact, I have an appointment to

meet with the board in my area very soon, to sit down and talk about their plans.

I notice some good things there. For example in tourism, to which the

minister alluded, there is some really good potential in all parts of the Province, and in

my district it is no different for tourism development. Engaging people in that debate in

rural Newfoundland and making them part of that is important, I believe. I will say that

hopefully these things will turn into - the bottom line, I guess, is jobs, something that

is tangible and that people are going to see, and the timing for that is very important,

Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That is right. The best plan in the world, I say to

the minister - and I have said this before and he has agreed with me - is no good unless

you can execute the plan. This plan that is being put together at the grass roots level is

very important.

I would also like to add, Mr. Speaker, that the development

associations who have done some very good grass roots work in this Province over years and

years are sort of feeling left out in this process lately. They should be commended for

the work they have done over the years and get involved also.

I hope that at the end of the day this plan is turned into jobs in this

Province because rural Newfoundland and Labrador desperately need it right now and rural

renewal is going to depend on a plan being executed. That is what the end of the day will

lead to hopefully, jobs in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair would like to take this opportunity to

welcome to the -

Oh, I am sorry. The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi, does

he have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

The Chair would like to take this opportunity to welcome to the gallery

today a former minister and Member of the House of Assembly, Mr. Tom Murphy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

After about fourteen months of study with respect to the Statutory

Review Committee's work on the Workers' Compensation Commission, the minister announced

yesterday government's response in terms of implementing the recommendations.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Environment and Labour

today a few questions because what was announced yesterday by the minister can only be

described as a watered down version of the report. Government spent approximately $300,000

on an independent, arm's length report and did very little in terms of implementing some

of the very fundamental recommendations that required change to the Workers' Compensation

Commission.

I would like to ask the minister this. With respect to the report

dealing with CPP offset, the committee recommended that the act be amended to reduce the

percentage of CPP disability offset from 100 per cent to 50 per cent. Over the last

several months the minister has indicated on a number of occasions that government was

seriously looking at doing exactly that. Minister I would like to ask you today: Why did

government not implement that recommendation of the report suggested to them?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, I would like to say that as the Commission's financial

system improved we liked to take the improvement and give it to the injured workers. That

is exactly what we have done. If, for example, we were to have accepted the CPP offset at

50 per cent it would have increased the unfunded liability to the Commission by

$31,900,000 and it would have had an annual rate of assessment of $1,900,000. It would

immediately have increased the rate that the employer pays by seven cents. As we already

know, in this Province we have the highest rate in all of Canada.

I would like to remind the House as well that the employers in the

Province are paying a surcharge of $13,400,000 per year into that unfunded liability,

which equates to forty-four cents per 100 of payroll assessment. Therefore if we were to

increase that particular situation to 50 per cent, it would basically put the Commission

back to where it was before we did the realignment of the Commission, and I guess put it

near bankruptcy. What we want to do, Mr. Speaker, is to ensure that the Commission does

have a long-term viability for the injured workers who are employed in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, it would be a good answer if it was

based on any fact whatsoever. The reality is that the unfunded liability portion of the

Workers' Compensation Commission is four or five years ahead of its plan right now.

Minister, the reality is that there is a good, sound, fundamental

reason why this recommendation was made the way it was; because the Canada Pension Plan is

a pension plan.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his

question.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is a contributory plan. The reason they

recommended 50 per cent offset was simply this, Mr. Speaker, because half of that plan is

paid for by employees.

My question to the minister is this: What is it that you tell injured

workers today who are living below the poverty line who are eligible for Canada Pension,

something they have contributed to, that this government has taken away from them and not

implemented a recommendation by the independent report?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to, first of all, dispel the myth that the Commission is

ahead of

schedule in the target date that it set before it. In fact, it was ahead of

schedule, but because of the $20 million benefit package that we have put in here with the

spousal benefits, and the $5,000 per fatality if a worker gets killed while working, plus

the 5 per cent offset we have already had from eighty to seventy-five, puts the plan back

to 2012. So we are not ahead of schedule; we are right on

schedule at 2012.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, many of the appeals process that go to

Chief Review Commissioner come from the notion of deeming. In the report it is very clear

and very specific on what the statutory review recommended to the minister and government

on what they should do on deeming. The minister announced yesterday that the deeming

process will be monitored for yet another year by a sub-committee of the expanded board of

directors who will assess the application of deeming on a one-year pilot basis.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister this: Why put a review

committee in place which will make specific recommendations on deeming, which are not

necessarily all financial ones, I say to the minister? Why didn't you accept the very

specific recommendations on deeming, as opposed to adding another bureaucratic committee

to the process that will not provide any benefit to injured workers?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is not correct either. The Commission, as we speak, are changing

the way they have done deeming. In fact, we are looking at new labour market information.

We have already changed the times of hours that the injured worker would come back on ease

back. Up to recently, they could be called in at one hour at any time of the day, from

9:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m., 2:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. We said that is

not going to happen any more. They can be called in for no less than four hours at one

particular time. At five days a week, that will give them twenty hours. We have already

looked at transferrable skills, and we have looked at conflicting medical opinion.

What I want to say to the hon. member is that we are not putting out

another committee for another year. What we are doing is, we want that committee that is

made up of the Commission, that is made up of the employer, by the way, and the employee,

and an independent person on the board, to work with the Commission - that they are there

working and responsible for - to make sure those things the Commission is doing are

actually being applied.

I am not saying another year. They have the thing in front of them. It

is a committee of the Commission that represents the injured workers, that represents the

workers, that is there to keep the Commission's feet to the fire to make sure the system

is there to protect the injured worker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: No more bureaucracy, it is just a committee of the

Commission appointed by the minister that will report to the minister on ongoing problems

on deeming process. That is what the minister is saying essentially, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask him this with respect to deeming: Is this

recommendation implemented, Minister, that the Workers' Compensation Commission must

demonstrate, through the vocational rehabilitation plan, medical reports and other

documentation, that a worker has the physical abilities, employment qualifications, and

aptitudes necessary to competitively find, compete for, and hold employment in the

occupation or group of occupations on which the earning capacity is based? Is that

recommendation implemented, Mr. Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the hon. member that what

we have done at the Commission is one of the recommendations that was suggested, and that

is when an injured worker's reports would come to the Commission. What happened in many

cases was that the occupational therapist reports were given precedence over a general

practitioner, and were given precedence over the specialist. What we are saying is that

the specialist reports take precedence, but he must operate within a teamwork to make sure

that at the end of the day the worker does indeed benefit and get what is rightly his.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So the answer to that

question is no, that recommendation is not implemented.

Let me ask another question with respect to deeming. Is this

recommendation implemented, Minister: Workers will not be deemed where re-entry into the

workforce or vocational rehabilitation is impractical. In those instances, injured workers

will continue to receive full benefits under the act. Did the minister implement that

recommendation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, what I said about the deeming situation

earlier was that there are already corrective measures in the system to deal with it. The

committee that will look after it is not a committee that is going to be appointed by me.

I am not appointing them. It is going to be the people who are on the board. The board

will decide who they will want to be on that committee. With the expanded capacity of the

board - we are appointing three new members - it could very well be that somebody from the

Injured Workers' Association will be appointed to the board and that person could, in

part, be a part of the committee. I am not saying who can or who cannot. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, at the end of the day it will be the committee and the Commission that will make

sure that deeming is properly carried out for the worker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, many of the recommendations in this

report emanate and come from problems with the board.

I would like to ask the minister this question with respect to deeming.

We have seen that there has been, over the past time, no consistency on how people have

been deemed off the system. Many of those I have given to the minister personally. I would

like to ask him, is this recommendation implemented: that the Workers' Compensation

Commission shall develop a process to review deeming decisions to ensure consistency of

application so situations that we have seen in the past, where two individuals have been

deemed to be, let's say radio dispatchers, one at $25,000 a year and one at $16,000 a

year. Is the minster saying that will not happen again?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, as the caseworker down there - there is one particular person who

is responsible, who is heading up the deeming process. I would assume, and I would hope,

that there would be consistency within the process such that two people in similar

circumstances would be deemed the same thing. If not, they will certainly be hearing from

me.

As I said earlier, the recommendation that we have here is to keep the

Commission's feet to the fire so that indeed the injured worker can be treated fairly, and

that is basically where I am coming from.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, one of the sorest points with the

Workers' Compensation Commission is deeming. It does not necessarily have to cost a

significant amount of money. The problem is not fixed, I say to the Government House

Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Yes, it is going to be fixed. We have heard for four

years that it is going to be fixed, and another committee is in place, but it is not

fixed. You had the opportunity in your hand to do it right now, Minister, and you have

passed up that opportunity.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask you this question with respect to the

Chief Review Commissioner. You have put in the report that all decisions must be made

within a three month time frame as opposed to a six month time frame. I applaud the

decision but I am afraid that decision, or the implementation of that decision, will not

take place because the decisions of the Chief Review Commissioner are still not final and

binding.

I would like to ask the minister this: Will he have a second look at

that process so that the decisions made by the Chief Review Commissioner are final and

binding, both on the Commission and the injured worker, and that the only appeal left

after that will be to the Supreme Court?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly we will have a look at it. I am not going to say to you today

that the thing will be changed, but I will certainly look at it. Basically what I have

said from the beginning is that whatever latitude I have to work with the injured worker,

obviously we will do that. At the end of the day we have to remember that the Commission

does exist for the worker, for the employer, and for the spouses in families who have met

with fatalities. Basically it is a very difficult balancing act, I guess, to be able to do

it all, but at the end of the day I think we have a good system and I think we are

improving. As the Commission itself improves financially we will take a look at it to be

able to do more for the injured worker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: A final question: Will the minister make a commitment

today that somebody from the Injured Workers' Association of Newfoundland and Labrador

will be appointed to the Board of Directors of the Workers' Compensation Commission?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Mr. Speaker, I cannot commit to that right now. What I

will say to you is that we will seriously look at all of the applications that come in and

basically, like I said to you earlier, assess everything. At the end of the day if we

think it would be beneficial for the Injured Workers' Association to be on the board, then

we will weigh that and consider it and see what we can do at that time.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is to the

Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

As the minister is well aware, the federal minister, Mr. Anderson, on

Wednesday announced the Atlantic groundfish quota plan for 1998. And you, Minister, stood

here in this House and read a Ministerial Statement, between the noise and desk thumping

from your colleagues, about how positive this management plan would be for the Province.

What the minister did not include in the statement was the increase in

quota in Greenland halibut for area 4R,4S,4T, otherwise known as the Gulf. This was an

allocation, Mr. Speaker, of 4,000 metric ton of Greenland halibut, also known as turbot,

of which 85 per cent of the quota goes to Quebec fishermen and 15 per cent will be allowed

to Newfoundland fishermen.

Minister, the fishermen from Quebec and Newfoundland had reached an

agreement on fishing this stock. The agreement was that sharing arrangements would be 82

per cent for Quebec and 18 per cent for Newfoundland. Although it is still allowing Quebec

the lion's share of this particular allocation, it was acceptable to both groups of

fishermen. Obviously our federal minister is still not listening to fishermen, Mr.

Speaker.

Minister, do you agree with this unfair allocation? If not, what do you

or your government intend to do to correct this unacceptable announcement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, when I made the announcement in the House

of Assembly yesterday on the 3Ps cod fishery, I announced exactly that, the 20,000 metric

ton announced for the South Coast of Newfoundland 3Ps cod fishery. That is good news.

As far as the question about the reduction in the Newfoundland share of

the Gulf turbot quota, I am saying very clearly: It is not acceptable to this government.

It is not acceptable to the people of this Province. I am on record a week ago of writing

the minister. I wrote him a letter yesterday and requested an immediate meeting to discuss

that. It is a reduction in 1998 and a further reduction to 12 per cent in 1999. I

discussed it with the people who are now occupying the office out on the West Coast last

night; I will be meeting with them as soon as possible, but my main thing to do is to meet

with the minister immediately.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, a

supplementary.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, the minister is 100 per cent right.

Today, and even all last night, the federal offices over on the West Coast are occupied by

fishermen. It is unfortunate that fishermen have to take this approach in order to have

people listen.

Minister, the Greenland halibut stock in the Gulf is one fish stock

adjacent to this Province that shows good signs of recruitment. Considering the fact that

the TAC for this stock has had an increase for the last three years, and if we accept the

federal minister's announcement of the allocation of this stock whereby the next two years

will see Quebec get 88 per cent and Newfoundland 12 per cent, the discrepancy becomes much

greater.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question; he is on a supplementary.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, this announcement will be taking millions

of dollars out of the fishermen's pockets and away from fishermen's families.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister if his government

is going to sit back and allow the fishery of the future to exist only for foreign nations

and for other provinces in this country?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will not say the member opposite is as

bad, but he is almost as bad, as the member opposite here when it comes to fisheries

issues and attitudes in this Province.

That member opposite knows full well the position of this government on

fishery related matters and quotas for Newfoundland and Labrador. We fought as a party, as

a government, for an increase in the inshore allocation for the fishermen in this

Province. What have we today? A 40,000 ton allocation for the inshore boats. We have a 98

million pound crab harvest. We have a scallop harvest. We are protecting the Newfoundland

fisherman. There are no foreigners inside the 200-mile limit, no foreign activity inside

the 200-mile limit.

As far as the Gulf quota on the turbot, we do not agree with the

reduction in the percentage rate to the people in this Province. We support and we are

saying that the principle of adjacency must be adhered to. So I will not sit in this House

of Assembly and listen to the hon. member make political accusations that this government

is not fighting for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista

South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, that is not what his colleague up in Ottawa is

saying. Even though there may not be a lot of foreign fishing inside the 200-mile limit,

our fish are being caught outside the 200-mile limit.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, last year we saw an allocation of 6,000

ton of cod in area 4R,4S,3Pn. This year the FRCC suggested a 5,000 ton allocation based on

the latest scientific information.

The federal minister announced on Wednesday a 3,000 ton allocation for

sentinel and index fisheries only. Minister, who is advising the federal government? Who

is giving Minister Anderson his advice?

Here we have fishermen, scientists, and the FRCC offering the same

advice and the minister does something completely different. Minister, is your department

or yourself involved in any decision- making that affects the livelihoods of thousands of

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, what the hon. member did not say is that

the FRCC also said in its report, even though it advised the minister to have a 6,000 ton

quota this year, that the Northern cod stocks and the Gulf stocks biomass are worse than

pre-1992. Six years after the closure of our groundfish industry, six years after, the

stocks, the bio-mass, are worse than pre-1992.

An hon. gentleman in this House of Assembly is on public record as

saying that we should not do anything about the seals because he is supporting the IFAW.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. EFFORD: The hon. gentleman here. He is supporting his IFAW

buddies.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

If that minister is indicating that this member here supports the IFAW

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: - I think he should clarify that statement right

here today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: Because what the minister is saying is wrong. If he

is going to identify a member -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

MR. FITZGERALD: - then let him name the district, Mr. Speaker, and

not make allegations of members on this side.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

There is no point of order.

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. EFFORD: I apologize to the member. He thought I was referring

to my colleague opposite here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Quidi-Vidi.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) Quidi-Vidi, Mr. Speaker. Let the record

show.

MR. HARRIS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is not allowed to use

Question Period when asked a question by one member to make false statements about

another.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

I ask the hon. minister to quickly conclude his answer.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In reference to what I was saying about the biomass of Northern cod and

Gulf cod to pre-1992, the federal minister is proceeding with caution. What I would like

of all Members of this House of Assembly, including my colleague opposite, the fisheries

critic, is to put more emphasis on dealing with the problem that we have today. Worse than

ever the foreigners were, worse than ever the Canadian factory freezer trawlers were, are

the several million seals we have eating our fish.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are to the

Minister of Health and Community Services.

On May 19 in this House, I asked the minister questions regarding

preschool children being denied adequate access to speech language pathology because the

Janeway only has five language pathologists and there are 300 referrals per year of an

intensive nature on the Avalon Peninsula alone.

The minister stated in this House, and quoted in the media the next

day: Every available speech pathologist that we have been able to hire has been hired.

I ask the minister now: Would she still stand by that statement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly every board has a global budget and has identified the number

of resource persons they need to hire for a particular area, whether it be nurses or

doctors or professionals, or any other sort of professional. If they have allocated a

certain amount of funding for a particular number of professionals, they have in fact

hired those available that they can hire within those means. That is what I said, and that

is what I stand by.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is not what she said, that is not what is in Hansard, and it is

not what was published in The Evening Telegram .

Minister, a bright young speech pathologist from my district left this

Province to find work elsewhere, and I know of many others who are unemployed here today,

and the minister stated differently.

In fact, I referenced that the administration of the Health Care

Corporation, and administrations prior to amalgamation, have continuously indicated that

they do not have money to support a further increase in staff.

I ask the minister: Will she admit that the reason children are being

denied access to this important treatment they need is not because of a lack of speech

pathologists but because of a lack of government money to hire these people?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community

Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As the member opposite knows, there are speech pathologists and there

are a number of professionals who bridge various departments. In particular, this

department works very closely with the schools through the education system. These people

work in the school system from September to June. We also have people through the

Department of Health and Community Services via the boards who also provide services, Mr.

Speaker. So there is certainly an interest in coordinating how we deliver those services.

In fact, there were some discussions awhile back on looking at how we can best utilize the

resources of those people who provide these services through the school system.

Mr. Speaker, we are looking at coordinating those types of activities,

particularity now that we have brought the departments together to try to integrate

services for children, and we will continue to do that. But it is clear, and it is very

honest to say, that each of our boards have a budget, each of the boards make a decision

on the types and numbers of professionals they hire based on their best judgements, and I

stand by their best judgements.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to make clear what the minister stated in this House and in

the public. She has been contacted, I am quite sure, or her office, that the statements

were not accurate. I am asking her now: Will she admit that the reason they are not

getting hired - I am simply asking her - is not because they are not available but because

they are not providing the money to do it? If the minister wants names of people who are

out there today unemployed, who are looking for a job and they will not hire when the

demand far exceeds - three times the demand - the number that is provided there, I will

give the minister names of people who will go to work tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think we have to be sensible not only in our answers but in our

questions. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, there are budgets that are provided to the various

boards. Those boards make the decision on who they hire, how many they hire, with the

people who have been allocated for hiring to go to the various boards. All of those who

are available to be hired within the allocations made by the boards have been hired.

I do know there is a vacancy in one of the regions because they have

not been able to allocate, or identify rather, a person to go to that area. I will say it

again in a more sensible way: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, you have to function within the

budget you have and the allocation of resources.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not a new concept. I think

it is important for the members opposite to know and perhaps get a briefing on how the

boards operate and how they have budgets. They work within their budgets. They identify,

in fact, how they go out to allocate resources and to fit the professionals to go into

those resources. That is what I said, Mr. Speaker, and I stand by it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, government just last week introduced amendments to the

Public Tender Act. In the new policy that government has just incorporated, many of their

recommendations were recommendations that were put forward by the Opposition, which we

received during our consultation process. I commend government for accepting our input;

however, some of the recommendations that we put forward are not yet put into those

amendments.

My question for the minister is this: Minister, can you give us a time

frame as to when the central registry of local manufactures will be put in place so that

government will have a source to refer to when compiling a tender? And, can you tell us:

How will this information for the central registry be processed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, there is right now in existence a directory

of local manufacturers and the products that are manufactured in this Province. What we

will do is build on that directory. We will certainly go public with an ad or some other

mechanism of trying to ensure that it is a complete directory of everything that is

available in this Province.

We have started that already. We have certainly put the system in place

to make that happen. We realize the importance of this, and the importance of making sure

that every product that is available in this Province has been identified, so that in

future when people are looking to bid they know what can be manufactured in this Province,

and that local contractors will have a chance at fair and full benefit.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's

South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

One of the items that was not put in was the breaking down of the

tenders. In the past we have seen a number of tenders, such as the Cabot pins and banners,

and just last week the Memorial University tender for security uniforms. When tenders are

asked for the supply of a vast number of items, all to be supplied by one supplier, this

bars a number of local manufacturers because they are unable to supply every item

inclusive in that tender call.

Will the minister tell the House if this central registry will be used

to determine what products are produced here, with the aim to designing tenders so that

local manufacturers are given the benefit, given the upper hand? In other words, break the

tenders down into workable units so that local manufacturers have first option. This has

not been done in the past.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we would like to see

happen. I think we all recognize that in the past there has not been full and fair

opportunity for local manufacturers to access these contracts. We would like to see when

the specifications are done up that in fact, working with this registry, we know exactly

what is available in this Province, what can be produced here, so that when the

specifications are done up they are done up in such a way that it will take local content

into consideration.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's

South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Minister, I ask: In future, will tenders that are

put out by government be broken down so that manufacturers right here in this Province

have the opportunity to be the accepted tenderers,

whereas tenders that call for a vast

number of items no longer exist; that we ask for items in workable units where local

manufacturers can bid on these items; that items that are no longer manufactured in this

Province are not incorporated into a tender call that asks for items that are manufactured

in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I agree with what the hon. member is putting

forward. That is certainly something we are looking at, because again we recognize that

when you have a large contract it is very difficult for people to compete on a fair and

full opportunity basis for various components of it. That is certainly something we are

looking at, and that was the rationale behind going the route we have gone with revising

the Public Tender Act.

MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. Member for St. John's East, I believe it was, asked me some

questions concerning the - they may have been raised by the Member for St. John's West. I

remember those from the Member for St. John's East. They were concerning the cost of

French language lessons for the Premier, was that it? I will share some information with

him and his colleagues, and the rest of us in the House.

We participate with the federal government in a program, the promotion

of official languages.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) French.

MR. DICKS: The member next to me suggests I should answer in

French. But peut-tre que je devrais m'arrter de... I would say that the total

cost of the program each year, from now until the year 2002, is $480,000 per year. It is

cost-shared 75-25. The provincial government's share is $120,000, therefore, of the

$480,000.

That total amount not only provides French lessons and services for

civil servants, members of the executive, Cabinet ministers, people around the Province.

It is offered in other areas for those people who have need in the course of the

performance of their official duties to understand and communicate in French. It also

provides translation, speeches, things like this, services under the agreement dealing

with the federal government as well, so it is fairly broad-based. There is a manager,

there is a secretary, there are three full-time and seven part-time personnel. As I say,

they do more than just provide lessons for those so interested.

If, however, you took the total salary budget, which is $247,500, and

assuming that all of that, and all of the instructors' time, and all of the salaries,

including that of the secretary and everyone else, were devoted to providing lessons,

which it is not, the Province's share of that would be $61,750. There are 200 civil

servants who participate in the program, and the average is 120 hours per annum. That is

three hours a week for forty weeks. The total, therefore, of the hours divided into our

cost is $2.57 per hour.

I haven't checked through the Premier's

schedule to see how many hours

he has actually spent, but judging by my own experience, and knowing what he does, I would

say if he gets a lesson in a week or every two weeks he is a very fortunate man indeed,

and I suspect it is a lot less than that. Assuming the worst, from the hon. member's point

of view, and that the Premier actually were able to find two hours a week to devote to

learning Canada's other official language, it would cost the taxpayers of the Province 100

hours and a total of about $260-odd.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before proceeding to debate, I would move

Motions 5 and 6.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services to

introduce the following bills, carried:

"An Act To Amend The Medical Act". (Bill No. 20)

"An Act To Amend The Medical Care Insurance Act". (Bill No.

21)

On motion, Bill Nos. 20 and 21 read a first time, ordered read a second

time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I call Order No. 3.(a), the Resource

Committee, Concurrence debate.

MR. SPEAKER: Order No. 3, the Concurrence debate on the Resource

Committee.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if I could, the Chairman of that Committee

was the Member for Labrador West, who is unavoidably absent from the House today due to

matters in his district but will be speaking in the debate on Monday to put forward his

views.

It is my understanding, at least from my own participation in that

Committee as the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal, that the questions were very

insightful, especially from the Member for Bonavista South. I know my friend the Minister

of Fisheries and Aquaculture would concur. He, I suspect, was also in front of the

Committee, and I suspect also answered the questions with a great deal of detail.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) truth from him.

MR. TULK: What? Mr. Speaker, that kind of attitude on behalf of the

Member for Bonavista South is awfully unusual. The Member for Bonavista South never comes

off in that vein except when he is in the public. You get him in a committee where there

is no press around, where he feels he is not being recorded publicly, and he is one of the

most cordial and - I don't know how to describe him. I mean, he speaks so well. He seeks

answers to questions on matters of public policy so well; and where he should agree, in my

opinion, he agrees.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: The Resource Committee.

Where he wants to give you the kind of information that can help you,

as a minister, he is all there to do it. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Bonavista South, as I

was saying, was one of the most insightful yet critical people to sit on that committee.

Mr. Speaker, I only wish the hon. gentleman would carry that kind of behaviour through the

House. I will tell you, it would be much more productive; this House would be much more

productive.

I would ask every member of this House, as soon as Hansard is available

- which will be later, I guess, this year - to read through the kind of discussion for

example that we had in the Department of Development and Rural Renewal. As I say to you,

Mr. Speaker, I believe he was the only gentleman there from the Opposition. I am

criticizing people for that, they had other things on. That night I believe he was the

only member there from the Opposition and I can say to you, without a doubt, that the

number of questions, the insight of the hon. gentleman was most (inaudible).

I believe the Member for St. John's South also sits on that committee

and, Mr. Speaker, he displayed none of the - is the Member for St. John's West on it as

well?

AN HON. MEMBER: No, she is on social services.

MR. TULK: She is on social services. The Member for St. John's

South is, isn't he?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. TULK: He is on that committee.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say to you that I understand from other members

of the committee that he too had no trashing. He was not out trying to trash the minister,

not at all. He was not out trying to put the lid on anybody or anything like that. He was

all there to keep everything open and above board and to see that the discussion was alive

and well and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I am not (inaudible). No, no, the hon. gentleman did very

well.

Mr. Speaker, I think the discussions in those committees, in the

Estimates committees, are good discussions. I can say to you categorically that it gives

me great pleasure, on behalf of the Member for Labrador West, to move - after, I suspect,

some suitable debate this morning - that the report of the Resource Committee be accepted.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) carry it.

MR. TULK: Not going to carry it - right away. I knew that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to get some agreement from

the Government House Leader that we have intervening speakers, providing no one exceeds

the thirty minutes, even though they may be up more than once. I know last year - I don't

think it is any big deal. We are down to less than three hours anyway. It will allow more

speakers an opportunity to speak on their different departments, provided no one

individual goes beyond thirty minutes, if they spoke for a period of time. That would

spread it a little further. Would the Government House Leader be in agreement that we

would have probably ten and ten or whatever, or some agreement that you would not

necessarily be limited to speaking once, provided your total does not exceed the thirty

minutes that would normally be allowed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with that, as he said, as

long as the total of any one individual does not exceed thirty minutes, which is what is

normally allowed in the debate. We would have to understand, for the case of a certain

gentleman, that of course this is being done by leave. If a certain gentleman, who in our

opinion has turned his back on the people of this Province, goes on with the kind of stuff

that he went on with last night then I am not going to stand here and listen to him get on

with that stuff so I will withdraw leave from him. I have no problem, I don't think, with

the rest of the people in this (inaudible).

By agreement, yes, I think we would have no problem as long as - let's

go ten, ten, back and forth, until a person uses the sum total of thirty minutes. No

problem.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

So that the Chair is clear now on what we have agreed on here, we have

agreed that in this debate members can speak up to ten minutes and if there is an

intervening speaker then they can speak a second time for ten minutes or a third time for

ten minutes until -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Okay. So that is the agreement that we are operating

on; these are the rules that we are operating on for this Concurrence debate.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to make a few comments on the Resource Committee. I do

not think we have to commit ourselves to stay within the Resource Committee headings there

in order to pass some comments.

Sometimes we might have things that we want to say on other headings

but because of the time constraints, we are not able to do that.

Getting back to the Committee, Mr. Speaker, and getting back to the

meetings we had with the Resource Committee and the comments made by the Government House

Leader, I look at those meetings, Mr. Speaker, not as a place to play politics; I look at

them as a place to get information.

I remember my first time attending one of those meetings and I think,

Mr. Speaker, you were probably the chairman of that particular committee at the time and I

was the vice chair. I did not have much information, being new here in the House. I was

told: If you are on a committee, you show up. I was not sure what questions to ask or how

I was to ask them, but I was not long to fall into the routine.

It is a situation where I know our committee, the Member for St. John's

South and the Member for Baie Verte, have gone to those meetings and we have asked the

questions that concerned us. We have put forward, Mr. Speaker, some concerns that have

been raised in our districts and by some of our colleagues. It was a great place to get

information, not only from the minister, but the minister would refer to his staff, and it

was a good place to find out what the departmental policy was on certain issues, issues

that you normally would not raise here in this House, Mr. Speaker.

For the most part, in fact for the whole part, the minister was not

political, the staff was not political, and the committee was not political. I think that

is the right way for those committees to function. It is not a place to go and be

vindictive against the minister, or to bring up an issue of some great disagreement,

comment on it, get his views, get the departmental views and move on. I believe Question

Period and debate here in this House is the place for that, and I believe that is the

place to play politics, right here within the confines of this House. That is what we are,

we are politicians, and if we can't play politics, and if we do not use the process, Mr.

Speaker, then I question our commitment to the profession.

It was certainly a good place to get information and to get to know

staff as well. Lots of times you call a department and you speak to the Deputy Minister of

Fisheries, or the Deputy Minister of Development and Rural Renewal and you do not know who

you are speaking with. So it is a way, I suppose, to put a face to the name and to realize

then, when you pick up the phone, exactly who you are talking with and who you are dealing

with.

So it is productive. Even though we have lots of things that we can do

with the three hours that is set aside for each one of those headings, Mr. Speaker, I

think it is important and I was glad to take

part in it actually. I enjoyed it.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, which was one

of the headings that came under our department - I think we used up approximately two

hours that particular night talking about fisheries issues and the seal issue; how

important it is that something be done to address the immediate need, Mr. Speaker, the

need to have a higher total allowable catch, or total allowable harvest, for seals here in

this Province.

That is why, Mr. Speaker, I did not want to leave any doubt today when

the minister stood in his place and just waved his hand frivolously and said: The member

opposite. Mr. Speaker, that is why I stood. I didn't stand to get carried on the media or

I didn't stand to interrupt the proceedings. But I, for one, don't want to be accused of

being a supporter of the IFAW. I, for one, Mr. Speaker, don't want to be accused of being

one of those people who go out and wrap their arms around a tree or wrap their arms around

a seal or something else, just because it looks cute or is something that my own mind set

tells me we should have to protect to live. I think all of those things, all of those

things, Mr. Speaker, exist for people. I will put people in front of fish and I will put

people in front of seals and I will put people in front of anything within the

environment, any day at all, Mr. Speaker.

When I see the damage that is being caused by the seals stocks and I

see our people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador - when I see it affecting every business

in this Province, Mr. Speaker, while we sit and wait for the return of the cod, while we

sit and wait for our fishermen to be allowed to go back fishing again, and we see this

culprit, millions of them, in excess of 6 million for sure, and probably a better guess is

in excess of 8 million, and we hear of one seal eating 1.4 tons of fish a year, Mr.

Speaker, it is not hard to understand why our cod is not returning in the amounts, in the

recruitment stages that it should be. It is not hard to understand -

MR. TULK: It is interesting to note that seals have not (inaudible)

MR. FITZGERALD: Exactly. A good observation, I say to the

Government House Leader, a good observation. Because this is where you do not get seals in

the amounts that we see in other places, and cod is returning in those areas.

Mr. Speaker, when you look at what is happening to our salmon stocks,

our caplin stocks and our cod stocks today, it is not hard to understand what the biggest

culprit is. You do not have to be smart or intelligent to know what seals eat. I am

dumb-founded, I suppose, to hear somebody trying to convince me, some scientist or some

professor at university - I will not say Memorial University -coming out and saying we are

still not sure what seals eat. We are still not sure what seals consume.

I gave the minister a half dozen pictures last night. I read a piece in

the paper. I heard the minister say he was looking for pictures, looking for snaps, Mr.

Speaker, of people hunting seals and taking fish from the stomach of the seal.

MR. TULK: They are also now starting to find shrimp and small crab.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, absolutely.

I had a call from a gentleman in Brooklyn, a small community - not a

fishing community, I might add - a small community in my district where this gentleman

enjoys going out and taking a few seals every year; and he supplements his income. He is

on long-term disability. When you look at him, it is not hard to understand why he is on

long-term disability because he is severely crippled, but he enjoys going out in the boat.

He has a professional seal licence. He enjoys going out and taking a few seals every year.

Last year, one Saturday morning, he called me and said: Are you coming

this way today? And I said: I do not have to, but if you want me to drop by, I will. I was

on my way somewhere else. So I said: What I will do, I will go down to Brooklyn en route,

leave here a few minutes early. He said: Okay, make sure, because I have something to show

you.

So, I went over and had a little chat with him. He said: Come down

stairs, I will show you what I have down in my deep-freeze. We were out seal hunting

yesterday and I killed this big old dog-hood seal. He said, I took twenty-eight fish out

of his stomach. Some of them, when we put together the bones, we could see it was the

backbone so we called that one fish. There must have been eight or ten there with hardly a

tooth mark in them. I am talking about fish eight, ten, twelve inches long.

He said: What I did, I took the fish - I wish I had to have a camera

with me, he said - and brought it ashore. When I got in, I called into the Department of

Fisheries and they told me to call this individual at Memorial University. So I called

Memorial University and talked with this professor there - he called him by name - and he

ask me if I would hold on to the codfish that was taken from the stomach of the seal. He

said: We will send somebody out to examine it to make sure that it came from a seal and

make sure it was codfish. Still not willing to believe that they could take codfish from

the stomach of a seal.

So he took the fish out of the freezer and laid it on the floor, and I

took some pictures of it. It was very obvious what it was. It was quite clear. There were

ten or twelve codfish there, ten or fifteen inches long, hardly a tooth mark, taken from

the stomach of a seal.

I did not need to get that phone call, I did not need for that

gentleman to call me to convince me what seals eat, but he did, and that is why I took the

pictures. I thought about them last night as the minister and the Member for Signal Hill -

Quidi Vidi were having the exchange here. I thought it would be a good time to go and get

the pictures and bring them down and give them to the minister, which I did, because I

believe in that.

When you see the meagre allocation being put forward by our federal

government - and I know this is one area that our own Department of Fisheries and

Aquaculture is putting effort into, trying to get the seal hunt increased. I know they

have put a lot of thought and effort into it, and I have to compliment the minister and

his staff. I don't care how crass he is in his remarks about what he would like to see

done with seals, and I don't care how he would like to have them harvested, because I

don't feel much differently, to be honest with you. I would like to see seals and every

other species harvested whereby we would be able to use it in a way that would provide

some benefit to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Speaker? I think the agreement was

that it would be ten minutes if we wanted to interchange, but we could go on for thirty

minutes, and then our time would be up.

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave!

MR. FITZGERALD: I think that was the agreement. Maybe if I could

then I will go my full thirty minutes now and use up my time, because I am making a good

speech here and I am sure I have a lot of people's attention, Mr. Speaker. I am sure of

that. The Minister of Justice is listening, I am sure he is, because it affects his

district as well. I am sure his thoughts and opinions are not far from mine, or from the

ones that have been expressed by other people in this House.

Mr. Speaker, something has to be done, and it has to be done soon. When

you talk to salmon fishermen down on the Labrador coast where they are still allowed to

catch Atlantic salmon commercially, when you talk to those people down there and they tell

you that - I think there are about 200 salmon licence holders left in Labrador, if I

recall correctly - they want an opportunity to have their licence bought back, they want

an opportunity to be able to sell their licence, because they can't compete with the

predators of salmon, then you know there is something wrong.

This was a very lucrative fishery. I suppose as it becomes scarcer, and

as the need becomes greater, supply and demand, today it is probably a much richer

commodity, a much more sought after commodity, than it ever was before. When you have

fishermen calling you saying: I'm now ready to sell back my licence because I can't

compete with the seals for salmon, then you know there is a major problem. When you have a

fisherman calling you saying: Three out of every five salmon I caught last year were

damaged by seals, there is something wrong. It should tell us a big story.

Because if we are going to allow the status quo to take place, then not

only will we not have a cod fishery close to where it was, but we won't have a salmon

fishery or a caplin fishery or any fishery. Something has to be done, and it has to be

done soon. If we are going to expect our people to only fish certain types of gear, and if

we are going to expect our people to abide by the rules and regulations put forward by the

federal government for conservation reasons, scientific information that is brought

forward, then the scientists and the conservationists have to start listening to the

common person as well, the fishermen.

We can talk about water temperatures, we can talk about the eco-system

all we want, and we can turn our back on the problem. Because I feel up until now that we

have turned our back on it. I feel we have spend too much time counting fish and not

dealing with the problem. Until we deal with the overpopulation, the explosion, of seals

then we will never get back in the fishing boat and allow our communities to survive as

they have in the past.

I think we can. I don't think we will ever see the numbers back in the

fish plants any more, I don't think we will ever see the numbers out in the fishing boats

any more, but hopefully when we see a program brought down by Ottawa, we will allow those

people to be able to go on with another phase of their lives and move out of that

industry, make a transition with some form of dignity. Hopefully we will. The people who

are left behind to take

part in that industry, if we do it right, and the onus is on each

and every one of us - I think attitudes have changed out there as well which I will get to

in a minute - I think the onus is on each and every one of us to speak out loudly and

support the minister in his travels and in his pilgrimage in fighting for this cause, to

deal with the overpopulation of seals around our coast. It has to be done -

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) across the country or what?

MR. EFFORD: Boy, everywhere you go (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I agree, and it should be. It has to be done, Mr.

Speaker. I think we operate in fear of what IFAW might be doing, and I do not know if we

should do that anymore. I think the time has come and I think we can put our case forward

now, and we have the people who can carry the message, whereby we can carry our own

message across this country and across this globe if we have to, in order to do something

with the overpopulation of seals.

You know, leading up to that, I think there are some little things we

can do ourselves. I think we have to try to solve the problems when it comes to personal

fishing licences, whereby people are allowed to go out and take six seals but right now

they are not allowed to sell the pelts, and I think of the by-catch and other things.

Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about big numbers. I see no reason why

those people cannot allow somebody else - and I am sure it is being done, I would hope it

is being done - allow somebody else to sell their pelts for them. I see nothing wrong with

that and I see no reason why they cannot sell them themselves, because sealing can be a

very viable operation, a very viable way of supporting families. It comes at a time when

people are getting geared up to take

part in other fisheries. It gives them an income at a

time of the year, Mr. Speaker, when they ordinarily would find themselves on Employment

Insurance, and at a time of the year when they can certainly use the extra income in order

to supplement either their EI or provide them with an opportunity to buy gear to get

geared up for other fisheries. So, Mr. Speaker, that is one area where we have to make

sure that we pay particular attention.

I understand we can talk for ten minutes at a time. Mr. Speaker, I have

a message here that somebody wants to see me outside.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I have a message here that somebody wants to

see me outside. I have twenty minutes or something used up already, and I cannot take a

chance on not attending to this message. So, Mr. Speaker, what I will do is, I will now

allow somebody else to speak

MR. TULK: Let me say this (inaudible) withdraw leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: You cannot withdraw leave, I have half-an-hour.

MR. TULK: Why?

MR. FITZGERALD: I have half-an-hour.

MR. TULK: Yes, well withdraw leave, you have to stop now

(inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: So I will submit to one of my colleagues and come

back and take up this speech.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Well that is true but that is all a part of it, I

say to the Minister of Justice. As I said before, this is the reason why we are here. If

we are going to play a political game, this is where we play it, not when we have the

minister surrounded by his staff, not when we have the minister out in his district. We

play it right here in this House. This is where I believe politics should be played, not

anywhere else.

When the Minister of Health and Community Services comes down to my

district, she will not see politics played; she will not see politics played. She will be

allowed to have people from the surrounding areas there to voice their concerns and she

will voice her answers, and that is the way it should be. I do not think it is the time to

belittle anybody or to bring forward points that should be discussed here in this House.

So I will pass on to one of my colleagues and I will pick up again. How

much time do I have left?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has spoken for eighteen minutes,

fifty-four point two seconds.

The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to rise this morning to participate in the debate but I more

particularly wanted to talk about human resources. I was unable last evening to

participate in the part of the Budget debate that talked about the Social Services

Estimates Committee report and how that is related to the Department of Education and

these matters.

Particularly this morning I wanted to speak about the Youth Internship

Programs and what that means for the education of our children in the Province. Earlier

this morning I had the opportunity to be at O'Donel High School in Mount Pearl where the

school had an appreciation breakfast for the businesses in the region that are partners

with O'Donel High School in the provision of two cooperative education programs, the

Business Work Study Program and the Youth Internship Programs in Marine Affairs.

About two weeks ago the Member for St. John's West asked a series of

questions relative to the continued funding for the Youth Internship Programs. I followed

up a few days later with some questions to the Minister of Education. As far as the

provincial government would be concerned, this particular matter affects the Ministers of

Human Resources and Employment and Education and their respective responsibilities.

Mr. Speaker, I want to read into the record some of the comments that

were made this morning by some people at the appreciation breakfast. I want to note as

well that the Avalon East School Board has twenty-two Cooperative Education Programs in

place. They operate in fourteen high schools in the Avalon East region. There are 606

students who are participating in the Youth Internship and Cooperative Education Programs.

I should note as well that the Avalon East School Board has a data base of 1,000 employers

who are active participants with the Avalon East School Board in the Cooperative Education

Program.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to bring to the House's attention again how

important this particular aspect of education is to the young people of Newfoundland and

Labrador. It was around 1990 that Human Resources Development Canada initiated this

particular program. The Province came into the program with the full knowledge that the

federal participants would be getting out of the program in three years. The Province has

had time to look at the continued funding.

I want to say, first of all, that I am surprised the Ministers of Human

Resources and Employment and Education have not, to date, given the school boards and the

schools in Newfoundland and Labrador the commitment that this program can continue.

Because they have had knowledge of the fact that the federal government would be getting

out of the program right from day one. However, they also knew and they gave a commitment

- and I talked to Human Resources Development Canada about this and they knew - that the

program would be continued and methodologies would be found to continue the program after

Human Resources Development Canada got out of it. However, that program is now in

jeopardy. I wanted this morning to bring to the attention of the House how important it is

in the education of our young people that we find ways to continue this particular

program.

I wanted to, first of all, read into the record what the program is all

about. A Cooperative Education Program consists of a high school credit, courses that

combine classroom instruction in the school with practical on-the-job training. It is a

partnership of students, teachers, employers and employees. There are, as I said, two

different parts of the program. There is the Business Work Study Program and there is the

Youth Internship Program.

Mr. Speaker, the business program involves student placements in many

different types of private enterprise and public sector administration offices. The

employers in this region have been very cooperative and it involves placement primarily in

scientific, engineering, computer science, technical enterprises, and public agencies. Mr.

Speaker, there have been placements as well in businesses involved in tourism, recreation

sectors and with municipalities. Mr. Speaker, altogether in this region there are 1,000

employers who are on the database and who are ready to continue their participation.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say, as well, that the employers have the goal

that they want to participate with the school boards, with the parents and with the

Department of Education to help prepare Newfoundland students today for the global

challenges of tomorrow. That is the theme, that is the approach and that is the commitment

that the schools in this Province have towards our young people.

Mr. Speaker, the Cooperative Education Program is designed to promote

closer association between students, and working adults are willing to share their

knowledge. There are many benefits, I should say, to the Cooperative Education Program.

The employers benefit because it develops for the employers a workforce of young people

who have skills and on the job experience. While we know that the on the job experience

these young people have may not seem significant to some members of the government, for

these young people it certainly is a very worthwhile experience. Mr. Speaker, it

encourages students to have a positive attitude towards productivity in the workplace.

An employer said to me this morning that it enables employers to

participate directly in the education of students and to keep educators informed of their

requirements with respect to future employees. So the employers, the 1,000 who are

registered with the Avalon East Board in their database, are enthusiastically endorsing

the cooperative education model. For the community at large, there are benefits to this

particular program as well, because it promotes for the young people an awareness of youth

job opportunities. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, many of the people who are in the

database or with the Avalon East School Board, the 1,000 of these firms, you will find

many of them have agreed and have applied to Human Resources Development Canada to get

funding for job placements for the summer.

So the database is already there, and because they have had these young

people working with them in a cooperative education model, we have employers who have been

identified as willing to accept young people into their job sites and that is important.

We also have young people out there today who are looking for jobs. The idea of the

student placement program is that we can match those two together.

In fact, Mr. Speaker, this particular program, The Cooperative

Education Youth Internship Program, if it were not designed, if it were not there, we

would be out trying to design it. We would be out saying: How can we make this thing

happen? How can we get 1,000 employers in the greater St. John's Avalon Region to say: We

want to cooperate with the educational system? We have been trying to find ways to do

that. We have been saying to the school system: How can you work with the community to try

to identify in young people the kind of career skills and knowledge that they would like

to have information about and have some experience in? So we have been trying to devise

it. Well this program is already devised. It is there. So we want to say to the Minister

of Human Resources and Employment and say to the Minister of Education, that we cannot let

this particular program be sacrificed. It is working too well.

In fact, Mr. Speaker, I should point out, as well, that the graduation

requirements in various parts of Canada are changing so that this kind of community

involvement will be an essential feature of the graduation requirements from the high

school system. For example, to graduate from a high school in Ontario, in 1999, you will

have to have forty hours of community service. In other words, you can have all the

academics and you can have straight As in Ontario, but starting in 1999 you have to have

forty hours of community service working with an employer or working with a community

agency in order to graduate.

In Alberta starting in 1999, you will have to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. H. HODDER: Leave, Mr. Speaker?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. H. HODDER: In Alberta in 1999 -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before the member proceeds, I would like to welcome some visitors. On

behalf of the all members of the House of Assembly, I would like to welcome to the gallery

today, forty-two Grade V students from St. Peter's Elementary School in Upper Island Cove,

in the district of Port de Grave. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Norman

Mugford, Ms. Pauline Dyke and Ms. Judy Stone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was indicating the desirable features of the cooperative education

model, and I was saying that we have this model already existing in Newfoundland. As a

matter of fact, other Provinces in Canada are looking at the Newfoundland experience for

cooperative education, and they are asking us for information about it.

I talked to the Avalon East School Board and they tell me they are

getting inquiries from all over Canada to give them information about how the Avalon East

School Board is working with the community to try to find placement for students, to try

to find educational opportunities for young people, and to try to make sure the community

is involved in the process of education.

Mr. Speaker, I was saying a few moments ago, that in 1999 in Ontario,

to graduate from high school, you will need to have forty hours of community service. In

Alberta, in 1999, you will have to have thirty hours of community service in order to be

able to graduate from high school. This is the direction in which this country is moving.

In Newfoundland and Labrador, where we have an excellent program now

developed between Human Resources Canada and the Department of Education and the various

school boards, we must make every effort to make sure that we do not let it slip through

our fingers. We have to make sure that this particular program is able to be fostered and

encouraged. I know that the government is looking at ways to continue this program.

My point this morning is not to be overly critical. It is to say to

them: This is something that is working. Let us make sure that we give the encouragement

to the school boards and to the community agencies, the employers, to say to them: This is

the way we want to go.

Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to share with members, if I could, the

comments made earlier this morning at the appreciation breakfast at O'Donel of the student

representative who spoke to the employers who were there. There were about two pages of

employers listed and about thirty or forty of them were present this morning.

I want to share with the members of the House the comments made by the

student representative, a young Level III student by the name of Dawn Cleary. I am quoting

from her comments this morning. She was good enough to give me her notes. I want to share

with members what the students are saying about it. She wrote: I think this is the most

important thing I have gained from this program, and that is realizing what I want to do

in university. If I had not gone through the program, I would have gone through university

following a program of studies which, at the end, I would have realized was not what I

wanted to do.

Mr. Speaker, she also said: I have also been introduced to new ideas

about what I can do in the future, and what I obviously enjoy doing in life, as a result

of my placement. She mentions the name of the firm she was placed at. Mr. Speaker, she was

placed at Daybreak Parent Children's Centre.

Mr. Speaker, she said: I have also learned things about the workplace,

how to deal with conflicting personalities in a mature professional manner and how long a

nine to five day is compared to a day in the life of high school. When making the right

choices in following your dreams, we can have a career that is rewarding and confidence

building.

Mr. Speaker, these young people who spoke this morning, and all of them

who came forward and presented their co-operative employers with appreciation

certificates, came out in great numbers at 7:15 in the morning. The cafeteria at O'Donel

High School this morning was filled with employers and students who were there to say

thank you. Mr. Speaker, I applaud the efforts that have been made by O'Donel High School

and the other thirteen high schools in the Avalon East system which are participating in

the Co-operative Education Program.

Mr. Speaker, I also want to make note, as well, on this particular

matter, that we as a Province should be, today, aggressively pursuing with the HRDC ways

to continue this kind of co-operative approach, because this is so important across this

Province that, as I said before, if it did not exist we would be out there trying to

create it. When you can have, as I said earlier in my commentary, 1,000 employers in a

database, it is phenomenal that all of these employers have said: Yes, we want to be

partners with the school system.

Mr. Speaker, I noted a couple of days ago that the Minister of

Education, in his commentary in the House, in fact in his ministerial statement,

announcing the Third National Forum on Education. He said that the theme this year would

be on Education and Life Transitions, and the focus would be on a school system including

pre-school, school to work and work to school and the changing labour market environment.

Now, Mr. Speaker, here is a bunch of the leading educators from all

across Canada, in here in this Province, in this city, yesterday, today and tomorrow,

talking about making transitions from work to school and school to work, building the

community relationship between education and the need for the community to be involved.

Here we can tell them today that this particular transition program we have in this

Province called Co-operative Education, the Youth Internship Program is a working model

for the rest of Canada. We just simply have to say to the Minister of Human Resources and

Employment in this Province and the Minister of Education: Let us make sure that we do not

lose this kind of initiative. Let us make sure that we continue the funding that is

necessary to promote it.

Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I wrote the various high schools in my

district on this very matter. I wanted them to know that we view with some concern the

fact that the federal government is withdrawing its financial support. The reason why they

are withdrawing it, they say, is that their job is to create employment, and at the end of

the funded program they have not been able to identify how many jobs have been created.

They argue that the Department of Education in the Province should now, after three years,

have found the resources to be able to continue the program.

Mr. Speaker, we view with some concern the change in the federal public

policy on this issue and the potential impacts these changes will have on the education

system's ability to offer meaningful programs that will facilitate a smooth transition

from high school to future work or other post-secondary learning institutions. We view

with concern what is happening here because many of our young people have gained valuable,

life-long, learning experiences because of this particular program.

We are concerned that if it is not going to be funded by the federal

government, the Province, through its various departments, including primarily the

Department of Human Resources and Employment and the Department of Education, have not yet

resolved or found the ways and means to fund the program in the future. Mr. Speaker, we

also say that we view with concern, frustration and dismay, another example of the federal

government's all too common practice of introducing programs, and then when they are going

for two or three years they simply drop out of them. What happens is that the federal

government introduces this kind of program, they go through the usual flurry of public

relations and the handshaking and the press releases, and all of the PR that goes with

that, and then when the program gets up and working, they suddenly say: We are not going

to fund it any more. That causes the Province, the school boards, the students, the

employers, a great deal of frustration.

Schools throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and our ten school boards

believe the federal government has participated in developing a very good program. It was

a collaborative approach between the school boards and the Province and the federal

government. We believe it was very successful. We are saying to the government today, we

should be finding a means to continue this very viable youth internship program that

provides hands-on learning opportunities which, in the implementation process, has helped

develop in our students lifelong learning experiences.

I want as well this morning to say to the provincial government that

the time has come for the Province to examine this program, to contact the school boards,

and to make sure we do find the ways and means to successfully continue what has become a

very successful learning experience for the young people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

With these comments I again want to thank the employers, I want to

thank a few of the 1,000 employers registered in this area. I want to say it was a great

experience this morning, as I did last year and the year before, to participate in the

appreciation program that was put on by O'Donel High School, and to say that while O'Donel

is just an example of all the other schools in the region, and in fact in the Province,

this is a very successful program and we should be doing all we can to make sure it

continues.

Mr. Speaker, with these few comments, I do believe that one of my

colleagues is now anxious to get up and continue the debate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will carry on. I understand I have some time left before I use up my

half an hour, another eighteen minutes. I will carry on from where I left off.

Just continuing on, before I finish up, to do with the seal industry,

or the seal hunt, I say to the minister that maybe this year we should look at delaying

the opening of the seal hunt in the Province by a couple of weeks. In my conversation with

some of the people involved in the industry, I am told that this year it opened too early.

Some of the pelts that were taken are not of the quality that they should have been,

because the seals were going through a stage where we would know them as ragged-jackets.

That in itself doesn't allow the pelt to be as good a commercial value as it would be when

it gets into the beater stage, I say to the Member for Harbour Main - Whitbourne, who nods

his head over there. I am sure he knows full well what I am talking about.

If we delayed the hunt for a couple of weeks, that would also give the

people from the Speaker's district and from my own district, in that particular area, a

chance to be able to take

part in that particular hunt and not find themselves like they

were this year, when it was the ideal time for hunting, the seals had come close to shore

in those particular regions, but because the hunt had opened so early, and because those

ragged-jackets had been taken, then those people were left unable to be able to go out and

take

part in that hunt and make a few badly needed dollars.

In fact, one gentleman called me and was very upset that he had gone

out that day - not knowing what quota was left or what quota had been taken - and bought a

new gun, and he had bought forty-five gallons of gasoline for his boat. He was really

looking forward to being able to go out and make a few extra dollars in order to get

geared up and take

part in the supplementary crab quota that he was expecting. I think he

was a permit holder in one of the smaller boats under thirty-four, eleven. He was very

upset when he called me. When he got home that day with his forty-five gallon drum of

fuel, and just after buying his new gun, he found out that the quota had been taken and he

was denied the opportunity to take part.

When you hear both sides of the story - you hear a processor saying

that the seal hunt had opened too early, and then you hear a fisherman saying that if we

only had another couple of weeks we would have really done well, and here are the expenses

that I incurred - then we should try to get both of this together and look at when the

hunt should be open. The greater issue, I suppose, is how many seals should be allowed to

be taken.

The seal industry has offered a great opportunity in my district. I

only wish people could have driven by the Mifflin fish plant there, which was once a salt

fish operation. I only wish people could have driven by there when the seal hunt was on

the go, when it reached its peak, to see the activity right there in that particular

plant. You know full well, Mr. Speaker; it is a district that you represented. It is an

area which you represented.

There was never - I should not say never, but probably in your memory

there was never - a big crowd that worked there; not in your memory but in your term as

being the Member of the House of Assembly. Because by that time the salt fish industry had

pretty well levelled out - not levelled out, but almost disappeared - and for the most

part there were only ten or twelve people working in that particular operation at that

time.

I understand in other years, in former years, there were large numbers

of people worked there. In my memory of it, being a member, there was nobody there. You

would drive by the plant and see the door open, and all that told you was that somebody

from across the street, from S. W. Mifflin's, was probably in there to take out a sheet of

plywood, or a gallon of paint to sell, because they were using it as storage, and that was

the only thing that was happening there.

The wharf was getting dilapidated, the building was probably not being

attended; well, I am sure it was not being attended to the way that it should. Then, all

of a sudden, this opportunity appeared and we had a reputable, good Newfoundland company

go down to Catalina, work out a deal with S. W. Mifflin, bought the building, repaired the

wharf, spent over $2 million on that facility - over $2 million - and at its peak this

summer there were 140 people - or, as the Minister of Justice would say, 140 souls -

working there. There were 140 souls working at that fish plant.

I would drive up through there in the nighttime, ten or eleven o'clock,

and there would be tractor trailers on the wharf, tractor trailers by the road. You had to

slow down because the road was all dug up in order to get proper drainage, in order to get

the sewer that they needed over there, the sewer lines, the water lines. The boats were

tied up at the wharf, forklifts going and coming. What a busy place, Mr. Speaker.

You go into the post office right across the street and I think there

was one person who complained about the smell, who said something about the smell. I was

very quick to point out that if we are going to get caught up in industries that only

smell good, or if we are going to get caught up in only allowing certain industries in our

town because we can wear certain types of clothes or we do not have to get dirty, then I

fear that our rural way of life in most of those communities is going to disappear very,

very, quickly.

I had to bring up this point when this individual brought it up about

the smell there. I remember being on a trip down in the United States. The Member for

Bellevue and the Speaker were with me, and we went to visit a relative in New Jersey. We

leased a car on our day off and went up and visited a relative of the Speaker in New

Jersey. We went into this restaurant there and the smell was enough to knock you

backwards. We came into this community - I forget the name of the community - but what a

stink. That's what it was; it was not a smell, it was a stink! It was terrible! Put up the

window, put up the window! Oh, man, we can't stop here! So we were hungry and decided that

we were going to go into the restaurant and get something to eat there, as bad as the

smell was.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where was this?

MR. FITZGERALD: It was a community in New Jersey. The Speaker might

know the name of the community, I can't recall, but I never smelled anything as bad. I

smelled the meal plant, I say to the minister, working in a fish plant all my life. I have

smelled the meal plant. It was worse than the meal plant. What a hum coming from this

community!

We went into the restaurant there - maybe the Speaker might know the

name of the community; he might be able to inform us - and nobody apologized for the

smell. Nobody said that you picked a bad day. Nobody said that you picked a bad day to

visit. Nobody said that you should have gone somewhere else, or when the sun is out it

really smells. I said to the girl at the restaurant: What is it that I smell? She said: We

make compost here. We make and we dry and we sell compost. She talked about the people

working there. Nobody mentioned the smell other than us driving in.

This is something that here in Newfoundland it seems we always talk

about - or in the past we have - how bad things are rather than the benefits derived from

it. The Speaker knows what I am talking about. I never smelled anything like it in my

life, and this is the kind of thing that we have to accept as well. There is no reason,

because we can't wear a suit of clothes to work or we can't go to work and come home

without having a smell of something on us, that it is bad because it is not. Fish

sometimes can smell pretty bad, I say to members opposite, and most people know what I am

talking about there as well.

I remember being down in Gaultois, Mr. Speaker. I spent four winters in

Gaultois. If anybody knows anything about Gaultois, you go in there, the fish plant is

down on the wharf and the meal plant is on the wharf. If you don't pass by the government

wharf to get to the opposite side of Gaultois, you go up around the mountain, up around

the hill, and when you are going around the hill you are about level with the stack of the

meal plant. I can guarantee you, if you want a good smell that is the place to get it; but

I did not hear anybody down in Gaultois complaining about the smell. The women would go

out and put their clothes on the line and the steam from the meal plant would blow back

over the clothesline. Nobody complained, Mr. Speaker. Because to me, as I said to them, it

is the smell of prosperity when you smell that.

The farmers out in my district, at a certain time of the year - now in

fact - are out spreading the manure on the fields. The (inaudible), I say to the Member

for Terra Nova, are out there. One fellow who has a hennery is moving his hens manure to

the fields. The other fellow who has a dairy farm is moving the dairy manure to the

fields, and he is just one. There are four or five dairy farms there. Look out when you

will and they are going up and down the road and there is a little piece falling off here

and a little piece somewhere else. So what?

Mr. Speaker, I remember being the Mayor of Musgravetown and somebody

called me and said: Boy, what are you going to do with this stink that is around here

today? What are you going to do about it? To me, that is the smell of prosperity. That

tells me that there is a farmer getting ready for next year. He is not putting that manure

on his fields for today. That is for the future, to make sure he has a good field and he

will have another crop to cut. That tells me that farmer is going to be in business next

year because he is preparing for it.

MR. LUSH: Remember the year we had the fly infestation down there?

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I remember that year, I say to the member. I

was not the member then but the Member for Terra Nova was. That was a situation I think -

MR. LUSH: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, in fact I was employed with the Assistant

Deputy Speaker at that time. He and I worked with Nickerson's together at the Charleston

fish plant. I think one of the trucking companies adhered to the wish of a farmer, if I

recall correctly, and instead of taking his offal up to one of the meal plants he decided

he was going to dump it on his farm. He would spread it, and that would provide the

fertilizer for the grass to grow. We had an infestation of flies. It wasn't a very good

smell. Here again, I say to the member, that is no reflection on what people did for a

living, no reflection on the industry.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is a reflection of somebody doing something

outside of the rules and regulations of the Department of Environment and Labour, because

it was cleaned up very quickly.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I want to remind the hon. member that his time is up.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am just doing something here (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I understand that by leave, and I don't want to take

somebody's place here, and if I have I will sit down and not even speak, but I understand

in talking to the Opposition House Leader that in order to get bills on the Order Paper I

would do Notices of Motion on five bills, on behalf of the hon. -

MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? Do we have an agreement that we revert

to Notices of Motion?

MR. TULK: I don't want to take somebody else's place on this side.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: On behalf of the hon. the Minister of Justice I give

notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To

Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law." That is the Attorney General

amendments, otherwise known as to the hon. gentleman.

On behalf of the hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour I give

notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To

Amend The Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act."

On behalf of the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services I

give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act

Respecting Child Care Services In The Province."

On behalf of the hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board I give

notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To

Amend The Members Of The House Of Assembly Pensions Act."

On behalf of the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation I give

notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To

Incorporate The Cruise Ship Authority."

All (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: We will resume Orders of the Day.

The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: That is another $100,000 for you, Wally.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: You got your $1 million, Jack. See, I said it and

there wasn't one person picked up on it, Jack.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few brief remarks today. I thought

my hon. critic across the way would have asked me some questions during Question Period

about the statement I heard this morning on CBC I didn't know anything about. I want to

make some comments about that. It is related to the overall workings of the government,

and I think it would fit in with regards to Concurrence and the Estimates and so on.

I turned on the radio this morning to listen to CBC news. I was up too

early to get any news from the local CBC radio, because I get up before they sign on. Ten

minutes to 6:00 every morning they play the Ode to Newfoundland and O Canada

and that sort of stuff, but I even miss that now because I am up long before that. I did

have a chance at 8:00 a.m. to turn the news on, and one of the items on the news had to do

with the Fire Commissioner's reports from Come by Chance.

I want to just make this comment. The reports are not finished, are not

finalized. I say this to my hon. colleague across the way, honestly. CBC called yesterday

and asked for an interview with me to ask me questions on it, and basically we told them:

No, there is an interim report in from the Fire Commissioner's office that I have over at

my office, but it is not the final report. The life safety audit is not in, so as far as I

am concerned, as far as my department is concerned, as far as the team that is working on

Come by Chance is concerned, none of those reports are in yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: I will say to the hon. member the answer is yes. I

made the comment in the House that I would make all of this public as soon as I got it. I

am saying to the hon. member to be decent with me and give me a few days, at least, for my

people to look at it, give me a few days for the Minister of Justice to look at, then I

will make it public. That was the comment I made in the House and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: Yes, that is right. There was a mistake. One of my

employees jumped the gun and made a comment about it. Basically the gentleman didn't

really understand or didn't know. If he had told CBC it was an interim report it may have

been different. I asked him this morning and he said he did say it was an interim report.

Of course, CBC has a habit of developing stories out of things like that and basically

misleading not only the public but people like you and me. I have no problem saying that

in the House because it happens quite often.

Mr. Speaker, the investigation of the March 25 fire explosion at

Come-By-Chance is completed. The investigation is completed. Reports are now being

compiled. It is anticipated that these reports will be finished up in the next couple of

weeks. Beyond that, there is really no need of me making any other comment on the

investigation.

The life safety audit that is being conducted by the Fire Commissioner

will all be put together, and the vessel inspectors and Occupational Health and Safety,

along with Brown and Root and A.D. Tupper & Associates - that will be done as soon as

possible and we will put that together. I am hoping, with all that said, that there is no

point in releasing one report at a time. We will release them all the one time when they

come in. I promise you I will do that.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say that some of the capital works has been

announced and some of the letters have gone out. Some of you, on both sides of the House,

have received some commitments from government as it relates to capital works. I know the

hon. Member for Cape St. Francis has received his letters and has his funding approved. I

know the hon. Member for Ferryland has spoken to me about some of his stuff, and I do not

know if all of that has been approved yet or not, but we are working on that. Your hon.

Leader asked me about some capital works yesterday and I told him about that, and the

Opposition.

I think most of the ones on this side of the House and on that side,

who have not heard - we are working on this deal of cash flow that the hon. Member for

Conception Bay South has been working with me on for a long time. We should have some idea

whether or not we are going to proceed along those lines of cash flowing large projects in

the Province, hopefully within two weeks. The paper is done. My colleague from Justice has

the paper. We are not sure, we still have some investigation to do in regards to

financing. When we are happy with that, and clear with that, then we will make some

announcements.

Mr. Speaker, that is about all I need to say. I just wanted to grab a

few moments to make those comments, and I thank you very much for your attention.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do believe I have about eight or nine minutes left.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has eight minutes left.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to continue to talk about the programs that I was

addressing before, the Cooperative Education Program and the Youth Internship Programs.

Since I was speaking about a half hour ago, I received a package from

the Avalon East School Board. They have sent me some information relative to their

position on this particular program. It follows from dialogue I had earlier today with the

school board representatives.

I want to say to hon. members how important this program is, and how it

is so crucial that we become more fully aware, as members of the House of Assembly, of the

role that cooperative education has in our school system.

Mr. Speaker, I want to note that the information I received from the

school board speaks of the implications of Human Resources Development Canada's

withdrawing from the K to XII school system and from the Cooperative Educational Program.

Mr. Speaker, I did note before that some of those programs are now in

danger of being discontinued. As a matter of fact, six quality programs are in danger of

being discontinued in the Avalon East School Board System, and that has serious

implications for the quality of programming and for the quality of education.

We note that fourteen of the Avalon East high schools are involved in

the Co-op Youth Internship Program and over 600 students were registered in that Program

in the 1997-1998 school year. Twenty-two of the twenty eight programs in the school system

presently exist with no federal support whatsoever. In other words, they are taken

teachers out of their regular allocation to support the program.

There are six Youth Internship Programs that have received only one

year of federal funding and these programs exist as follows: The Career Exploratory

Program at Beaconsfield High School; the Career Pathways Program at Brother Rice; the

Future Pathways Program at Booth Memorial; the Desktop Publishing Program at Bishop's; the

Marine Affairs Program at O'Donel High School; and the Petro Chemical Promise Program at

Mount Pearl Senior High School. Mr. Speaker, these are the programs that are in danger of

collapsing unless the Minister of Human Resources and Employment in this Province and the

Minister of Education can either work co-operatively on their own or work in conjunction

with their federal partners to find ways to continue the funding.

Mr. Speaker, it takes about three or four years before these programs

are able to stand on their own. What is happening here is that these programs are now in

their first-year stage and there is a real danger that they will not be able to be

continued unless new funding sources are found. Without the federal and provincial support

of these programs, these six are now in jeopardy. Some of the schools have already

indicated that they will have no choice but to cancel their programs.

As I said earlier, we have 1,000 employers in this area who are

participants, and if we did not have this program available to our students we would be

trying to find ways and means of making it happen.

I should note, as well, that seven innovative funding proposals that

would have expanded Youth Internships to other students have been turned down because we

simply have not got an agreement reached between the Province and the federal government.

Also, there are six high schools - I said there were fourteen high

schools involved in the program. There are twenty high schools in the Avalon East system.

The other six high schools which are not already involved in the Cooperative Education

Youth Internship Program have expressed interest in becoming involved.

For example, the high school in Trepassey is not now part of this Youth

Internship Cooperative Education Program, but the high school in Trepassey wants to be

involved in this program and the school board is trying to find ways and means of making

it happen. The Avalon East School Board has the philosophy that all of their high schools

should have at least one of those programs. The real problem here is that if the extra

funding is not found some of these programs will cease to exist as of June 30, 1998.

Some of the programs have been nationally recognized. Some of you may

have seen on the news, the tremendous credit given to Bishop's College and to the

administrator there. We want to say congratulations to those schools. When we have school

systems from across Canada coming to Newfoundland to say, how are you doing this, why is

it working, how is it working, we should be so proud of it because we have something to

give back to the rest of Canada. In this Cooperative Education Youth Internship Program,

we are leading many of the other provinces, not all of them, but we are leading a good

many of them. So we should be saying to the rest of Canada: Come here and see what we

have. This is why, with the leading educators in town today, we need to be saying to them,

that we are pleased to see them here but we do not have to listen to all they say. It is a

sharing exercise and we have something that we can tell them about the school to work

transition as well.

Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to note again, in the information given to

me by the Avalon East School Board in the last fifteen minutes, it says: Funding for the

Educational Partnership Facilitator will end as of June 30, and our work in this area,

recognized nationally, would be negatively impacted as a result of less resources being

allocated to support the maintenance and further enhancement of existing programs. I note,

Mr. Speaker, the school board wants to have at least one of those programs in every

school. The school board, as well, notes that the lack of funding or the discontinuance of

funding will have implications for addressing real school improvement needs.

For example, the Teacher Internship Curriculum Development Program, I

just want to comment on that. In the Avalon East system, we now have a new program, first

in the Province and one of the first in the country. It is called, the Teacher Internship

Curriculum and Development Program. That's a program whereby teachers -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave.

MR. H. HODDER: Just by leave to clue up.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. members have leave?

MR. BARRETT: No leave.

MR. H. HODDER: I note that the Member for Bellevue refuses me leave

to continue a dialogue on education in the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member does not have leave.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I rise in my place to say a few words on the Budget once again.

With respect to the Estimates Committee Meetings, that is what we are discussing today.

MR. FUREY: Were you there?

MR. J. BYRNE: I attended a number of meetings, Mr. Speaker, and I

can guarantee you I was there, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy. I was there and

every minister will confirm for you that when I was there the person who asked the most

questions was the Member for Cape St. Francis; there is no doubt about that. I asked many,

many detailed questions on the budgets. Most definitely, I asked questions in the Estimate

Committee Meetings.

Some of the ministers, I must say, are well informed on their

departments when you ask them questions. There were a few of the ministers who had to

refer to their staff, get some information and what have you. But a couple of the

ministers, I must say, with respect to knowing what was going on in their departments,

were well informed. I did not necessarily agree with what was going on in their

departments, but they were well informed and they could answer the questions; not

necessarily the answer that I would want to receive or I thought should be given, but they

answered the questions anyway.

Now, with respect to the Budget - which member was up the other day? I

think it was the Member for Topsail. He was making some comments, Mr. Speaker. I referred

to him the other day when I was speaking and I didn't get a chance to finish my comments

on the comments that the Member for Topsail was making.

Anyway, he talked about the taxes being reduced in the Budget. Mr.

Speaker, that never happened. Taxes were not reduced in this Budget. He talked about there

being no increases in taxes, but there were, in my estimation, a number of tax increases

in the Budget, although hidden very well, Mr. Speaker. They were hidden.

Where is the information you promised me today?

AN HON. MEMBER: Did I promise you information?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, you did. Remember now; think.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I can't say it publicly. Now, he has thought on

it; give you time to work on it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, with respect -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I know. I know.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Topsail was making some comments

with respect to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. I can't remember his exact comments,

but I want to make a comment on that because the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs was asked a question with respect to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing last week

and about the situation with an individual being hired to look at what was going on with

respect to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

Now, Mr. Speaker, over the past few years we know that there have been

a number of people let go from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing; people who really didn't

want to leave, but they were forced to leave basically, because they did not know what was

going to happen to their pensions. The same thing has come around each year, in January or

February, over the past few years, people being more less - there is something just fed

out there, Mr. Speaker, to the people in the civil service and different Cr