VOL. 3 PHELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MAY 24, 1978 NO. 67

:·!a y 2 4, 1 9 7 8 Tape 3449 The House met at 3:00 P. M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS: IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from 306 residents of the communities of Newmans Cove, Lower Amherst Cove, Middle Amherst Cove and Upper Amherst Cove. The prayer of the petition is requesting government through the Department of Transportation and Communications to pave the road across the Bonavista Peninsula from the Amherst Cove area across to Catalina. This road is an important road.

It is approzimately nine miles, between eight and nine miles,and it serves two districts . It serves Bonavista South,my own district,and that of my colleague from Trinity North (Mr. Brett),linking two districts across the Peninsula. It is important to the residents of the Bonavista South district because it is used as a means of transport to a place of employment.

Many people in these communities I just mentioned, in Newmans Cove, Birchy Cove and the three Amherst Coves~ travel to the fish plant in Catalina, the Fishery Products fish olant .and are working there,many of them year 'round nov,and not only that but it is a major school bus route . All the children in these communities travel to school in Catalina. The road was upgraded in preparation for paving two years ago.

Sufficient funds were unavailable last year to be allocated for that purpose of paving and now that the road is upgraded and ready for paving it is hoped that funds can be found this year for the paving of this

section of road linking two districts; in fact, it can also be labelled,! guess,as a road to resources.

!fay 2 4 , 1 9 7 8 Tape 3449 !3-2 }fR. :-fORGAN: Unfortunately the request made by myself while Minister of Transportation to the federal authorities for it to be included under a DREE funding programme was rejected despite the fact it is leading to a place of employment and can be looked u~on as a road to resources. It was not included in the DREE package last year and it is not included this year under the Roads Agreements with the Department of DREE.

However,! am hoping my colleague can find sufficient funds, the Minister of Transportation and Communications, to have this road paved hopefully in this fiscal year. ~! R. Sl'EA~~ ER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House, of course, support the petition, Sir, and in so doing we want to congratulate the membe~ for doing his job on behalf of his constituents and not wasting the time of the House~ as the hon. the Premier has indicated so often about members who present petitions in this hon. House.

I am rather surprised, Sir, to hear that this nine mile stretch of road has not been paved when the hon. gentleman is the former Minister of Transportation and eommunications. It is about the only piece of road in the hon. gentleman's district that has not been upgraded and paved. Parking lots have been paved. Roads that lead nowhere, parking lots have been paved but now we discover, Sir, that the hon. gentleman overlooked somehow or other to pave the nine miles of road across the Bonavista Peninsula.

And now 306 residents of Newmans Cove, Lower Amherst Cove, Upper Amherst Cove and Middle Amherst Cove have now had to come praying to the hon. gentleman who happens to be a member of the Cabinet,too, Sir. The hon. gentleman has got it all in his own hands, a very influential member of the Cabinet and a possible leadership

~ay 24, 1978 ~ape 3449 IB-3 MR. NEARY: candidate on the other side as soon as the Leadership Convention is brought on now that we hear rumblings of discontent in the party and so forth and they want to replace the poor old han. gentleman who sits opposite me there. The hon. gentleman will be a possible candidate for the leadership and one or two others on the other side. So I do hope, Sir, that the han. gentleman will be able to bring pressure to bear on his colleagues in the Cabinet and not just let the matter rest here on the floor of the House.

The han. gentleman should be able to bully and push and shave and persuade his colleagues in Cabinet to allocate a few dollars to have this road paved in this fiscal year. So we do support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I only wish the Premier .were in the House to see one of his ministers presenting a petition and doing his jobs in behalf of his constituents. I do not know what the han. gentleman will say about it now, Sir. Are we wasting the time of the House? Does the han. gentleman feel that we have wasted the time of the House talking about this petition? AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR.

NEARY: No, Sir, and I am sure that no other hon. gentleman does,except the Premier.

May 24 , 1978 Tape 3450 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: I am sorry that I was not here to support the petition of the hon. minister opposite. However he has my support. The petition I have, Mr. Speaker, is from a number of residents - I have not had time to count them yet but I will be quite happy to do so for the Committee, Mr. Speaker - from Dogberry Hill Road. And my hon. friend, the Minister of Tourism, has more than a nodding acquaintance with Dogberry Hill Road.

What the petition says, in fact, is to plead with the House of Assembly to hear the prayer of the petition, that the portion of Dogberry Hill Road that is unpaved can be rectified during the current construction season. I am sorry the Premier of the Province is not here and the Minister of Transportation to hear this petition. A portion of this road was paved a couple of y~ars ago and I might say that during that time as the Minister of Tourism who was at that time Minister of Transportation will know, and I am not exaggerating, Mr.

Speaker, as again the minister will testify, you could not drive up that road unless you had a four wheel drive. You would go right to your axels in mud. AN RON. MEMBER: Where is that1 ~ R . NOLAN: St. Phillip's. At that time I understood from the minister, cnac it was nopea to do and certainly not formally, so much work in that particular year,which they did in upgrading and paving. They did approximately half the road,or something like that,and it was hoped to do the remainder in the following year.

I am not attempting to hold the minister to that because it was a conversation where we were discussing the thing and I certainly do not have it in writing or anything like that and I am not trying

May 24, 1978 Tape 3450 HR. NOLAN: to pin him down on that particular thing. But the fact is this is not the first petition that I have presented here in this House on Dogberry Hill Road for the residents there in St. Phillip's. IB-2 The unpaved portion there now is in desperate shape. You have motor vehicles which are very expensive today that are being damaged as a result of the condition of the road. You have property that is covered in dust when the fine weather comes. In the early spring you have mud again and terrible rocks hitting your car as you drive along even at very, very slow speeds.

Here is an artery that runs, as I am sure most of you know, from the Thorburn Road up to the St. Thomas Road going along the coast there and it is badly in need now of this extra portion of work that needs to be done that could make it not only driveable,walkable, liveable for the residents who live on the road but for all of those, and there are people not only who live on the road but many thousands of others who go up and do~n over that road daily.

May I also say that there are people on the road,for example,who are in the dairy cattle business and so on and farming and they have to transport goods and cattle back and forth and it is most arduous for them. I would think now that this House hopefully will consider the plea and the prayer of this petition to have this extra portion of road finished off this year. The reason it was done, the first part, was because you just could not move over the road. That is not an exaggeration. You could not move over the road it was that bad. Even if you walked you would go up to your knees in mud.

So I am now asking my hon. friends here in the House to support this petition because it is not - I

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3450 IB-3 MR. NOLAN: am not asking for some luxury item. I am not asking for some frivolous request and that is not the purpose of this petition. It is very, very badly needed and I am sure,as I said, the Minister of Tourism, the former Minister of Transportation is familiar with it because he has been over it. He has talked to his officials about it when he was in Transportation and in fact it was he, I might say,who was responsible for that first bit of work that was done on the road. I am only sorry that he could not finish the job.

So I only hope that the present Minister of Transporation,who I understand may be overseas on public business at the moment, will heed the prayer of the petition as will all members of the House so that we can give an indication of good faith to the people who reside on that road and so that something can be done in the current construction season. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I table this petition to be laid upon the table of the House and forwarded to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Ferryland. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker - MR.

SPEAKER: I believe the hon. gentleman for Ferryland is going to present a new petition. HR. POWER: Yes,I am. MR. SPEAKER: If the han. gentleman yields and with the consent,the hon. member for LaPoile will be able to support the previous petition. MR. NEARY: I will just take a moment, Sir, to say that I support the prayer of the petition

May 24, 1978 Tape 3451 IB-1 MR. NEARY: so ably presented by my hon. colleague, the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). And I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, on a sort of a personal note because my grandmother on my father's side was from that particular area and I do not think there is a soul by the name of Squires or Tucker in St . Phillip'~ that I am not related to in one way or another on my father's side. And I know Dogberry Hill Road - I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER : And they are all good people. MR.

NEARY: 4nd they are all good people, Sir, and they are all fighters and they are all proud of their relative. Mr. Speaker, I know Dogberry Hill Road fairly well, Sir. I go down once in a while to visit George Albert Squires who lives about half way up that road- no)a little further than half way up. So I am very familiar with the road, Sir, and I can vouch for the description that was so eloquently and colourfully described here by my hon. colleague, Sir, in describing the condition of the road.

So I wholeheartedly, Sir, support the prayer of the petition and I do hope that the Minister of Finance,who is not listening to me at the present time,who will not be a leadership candidate when the convention is called - the hon. gentleman cannot wait for the election to be called to gracefully retire from politics. I do hope the Minister of Finance - I knew I would get the hon. minister's attention - MR. HICKMAN: You talking about me? MR. NEARY: Yes, the hen. gentleman.

I hope the hen. gentleman will be able to find a few paltry dollars to fix up Dogberry Rill Road and make it passable so that people can drive over it without puncturing the gas tanks of their cars - MR.. HICKMAN: I will take a look at it.

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3451 IB-2 !1R. NEARY: Take a look at it? But we have to get Transportation to take a look at it,too. MR. HICKMAN: Not bein~ a native of St. John's.! do not know the area. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, if the han. gentleman will do that, Mr. Speaker, for all my relatives-! think I can speak on behalf of all my relatives in St. Phillip's area - if my hon. friend will do that he will go a little further than just an ordinary court reporter. We might even move him up to magistrate. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova . MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by my hon. colleague on behalf of the residents for the paving of the Dogberry Hill Road. I have no relatives there, Mr. Speaker, but in the Summer I drive quite a bit around that area,Because on my limited salary now that is about as far as I can go. This is the Dogberry Hill Road. I travel there and it is a beautiful area to visit and it is too bad that the drive is spoiled by having to drive over that terrible road. Mr. Speaker, I would rise to support all petitions asking for paving.

I wanted to speak to the minister's petition as well but I did not realize that there was another petition being presented. It is terribly frustrating, Mr. Speaker, terribly inconvenient for the motoring public and for children who have to use those roads.

I realize that it is a great expenditure of dollars to pave all of the roads in this Province that need paving,but certainly we have got to aim and hope to achieve this objective of having all major roads in the Province paved which will result in great comfort to the motoring public and also quite a reduction in expenses of operating vehicles because it does co~t an awful lot by using the roads that are bumpy and in a deplorable state through punctured tires and broken shocks and broken springs and all sorts

May 24, 1978 Tape 34 5 1 IB -3 MR. LUSH: of inconvenience. So, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition wholeh eartedly and hop e that the minister responsible, the Minister of Transporation and Communications, will be able to see fit to do something about that road in this construction season, in this construction year. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~m~er for Ferryland. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 1,282 residents of Ferryland distr ict and the district of St. ~ary's-The Capes.

This peti t ion and the prayer of the petition is basically dealing with pre-vocat ional facilities within the educational district of Ferryland from Bay Bulls through to the St. Shotts­ l'repassey area,whicb takes in the two political districts of Ferryland and St. Mar y's-Th e Capes. The prayer of the petition reads ,'1

Whereas high school students in many areas of this Province living in close driving proximity to vocational schools

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3452 IB-l MR. POWER: can avail of special courses in pre-vocational education as part of their high school programme; and

whereas hi2h school students residing all along the Southern Shore in communities from Bay Bulls to St. Shotts have not access to a vocational school and as a result suffer an inequality in educational opportunity thereby missing a chance to be introduced to skills which could lead to a trade career or at least be valuable in living in rural Newfoundland;

be it resolved that the government take immediate steps to provide facilities and extra teaching units to enable the Roman Catholic School Board for Ferryland district to implement a programme in pre-vocational education in each of the three high schools in the Southern Shore. 11 Mr. Speaker, I might add that there are three high schools in the Southern Shore area,one in Mobile,in the town in which I live, one a little further along the shore in Ferryland,and one in the community of Trepassey in the district of St. Mary's-The Capes.

In those three areas where you have several thousands of students and certainly several hundreds and hundreds of high school students,one of the gravest problems that we have is not only access to vocational schools here in St. John's which makes it very difficult for us to compete with the massive population in this part of the Avalon, so besides there being ~ crying need for a vocational institute of some kind in the Trepassey-Ferryland area in the middle of the districts there is also a crying need in the area for some type of pre-selection.

I have often wondered at the grave wastage which takes place when students enter trade school here in St. John's or at our College of Trades and Technology, if you want,and enter into a course that they have entered

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3452 IB-2 MR. POWER: into for maybe only six week or five weeks and find that that course is totally to their unliking, that it is a course that they cannot cope with, a course that they do not wish to be in at that time simply because they have not availed themselves of a ·pre-vocational type of training or pre-selection course. I have also received a copy,when the petition was sent to me on behalf of my friend from St.

Mary's- The Capes,of a letter from the School Board in Mobile, which takes in the district,which emphasizes some of these features which really cause our students to be certainly in an unequal state. A part of the letter reads, "We on the Southern Shore along with other parts of Newfoundland and Labrador are not in the fortunate position of being close to a trade school. Schools are too far from the nearest vocational school to have students commute. Our only hope for introducing this aspect of education is to have pre-vocational teachers and facilities available at the high school level.

If costs prevent the establishment of the necessary facilities in each high school,it might be possible to provide a board with a mobile facility which could be moved from one high school to another.'' We understand that this is done in some provinces and I would now like to ask and to beg the Minister of the Department of Education to look into the possibilities of having a mobile vocational type facility where a person could learn a little bit of carpentry or a little bit of mechanics or a little bit of electrical background where when that person came down to making maybe one of the most major decisions of his lifetime as to what course he would like to do, what would he like to so with his life when he leaves high school, would he like

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3452 IB-3 MR. POWER: to be a mechanic or an electrician or a carpenter or a olumber, that maybe we would make that choice a little bit easier, a little bit more clear and maybe make that person a little bit of a greater contributor to our communities. And even if they never went into any of those courses, if they went to university, certainly the skills that they would have learned in their pre­ vocational course in high school would certainly stand them in good stead in any part of rural Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, I certainly think that this petition is an extremely important one in the field of education. We have other educational problems in our area as have come out during the last few months,but certainly this one of having no pre-vocational selection of courses in our area certainly puts our students at a severe handicap ~ I would like to have this petition tabled in the House and referred to the department to which it is concerned. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde followed by the hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to speak in support of the petition supported by the member for Ferryland district (Mr. Power). I am not quite sure exactly what the prayer of the petition was and I stand corrected when I try to relate what I think the prayer of the petition is.

I think what the hon. member was saying was that in the particular area there are hundreds of high school students who do not have the facilities of a vocational school - is that correct? - and therefore wish to have additional teachers in their high schools in the three areas concerned for the purpose of teaching pre-vocational educational courses so that -

• t• l!ay 24, 1978 Tape 3452 IB-4 MR. POWER: Something similar to - HR. F. ROlfE: Right. So that when they do go to the College of Trades and Technology or/and vocational schools they are better prepared to enter into these courses if they make the right choice .

May 24, 1978 Tape 3453 IB-1 MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, there are a couple of things there that I would like to raise in support of the petition. Number one, Your Honour when you were Minister of Education I believe introduced a experimental vocational programme into some of the high schools in the Province and I would like to hear from the Minister of Education now as to the progress of that experimental programme and how exactly it would relate to the area mentioned by the member for Ferryland (~r. Power). MR. NEARY: Seal Cove,I think. MR. F .

ROWE: Your Honour, I can remember the first vocational school used for such an experimental programme was the Seal Cove Vocational School. However,this was a case where students were taken out of school and I believe brought physically to the vocational school. I was wondering what is being done in the Province to help these students in high school who are not in close proximity to the eleven or so-or fourteen or so vocational schools that we have in the Province at this time.

I would like the Minister of Education to update us on the experimental programme and whether or not it has been modified to take care of the situation suggested by my friend and colleague from Ferryland. Secondlv, Sir, at this very time that we have cutbacks in the number of teachers in the schools here we have a member opposite in the backbenchs calling for, in fact, an increase in the number of teachers in the school system. This is the very thing, Sir, that we have been arguing against all along when this teacher cutback was announced, that it most affects the specialist area.

And in this particular case we are talking about a

May 24, 197~ Tape 3453 IB-2 MR. F. ROWE: specialist area that really does not exist and really the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) is asking that a new specialist area be created for the purpose of preparing students, high school students, for entrance into vocational schools and the College of Trades and Technology. Once again, Sir, it comes back to this whole business of teacher specialization with respect to guidance.

Here again we can see the need for guidance specialists in such schools in order to determine and assist students as to whether or not they want to carry on in an academic kind of an education after they leave high school, whether they want to carry on in a vocational technical type of education after high school or whether they want to go into the work force or into some sort of an on the job training kind of a course that you find in a bank or a charter accountancy and this sort of thing.

Sir, the petition points out very, very clearly and supports and endorses and substantiates our arguments about why in fact we should not have teacher cutbacks at this particular time and we should put a moratorium on the cutback of the number of teachers in our school, the layoff of these teachers until such time as a task force studying this particular problem is brought before the government and the recommendations are studied and a particular action is taken.

Sir, I wholeheartedly endorse and support the petition put forth by the member for Ferryland and I hope that a number of members on both sides of the House will stand up and support the petition because really what the member for Ferryland has done now is introduced a new factor, a new element into this whole business of the

May 24, 1978 Tape 3453 IB-3 MR. F. ROWE : teacher supply problem in this particular Province. Sir, I would be the first to admit that in terms of quantity, bodies of teachers versus boriies stuci~nts, you u~y be able to put up an argument with respect to whether you should lay off teachers or take on more teachers or keep the number of teachers that we have on hand. However,in terms of quality of education and the need for specialist teaching in certain areas,there is no doubt in my mind, Sir, that we should have the very opposite of layoffs, we should be taking on more teachers for these particular areas.

And I commend my colleague for having the courage to bring in a petition which flies really right into the face of the government's educational policy at the present time. I am not trying to embarrass my colleague opposite at all but the petition in fact is dead set against the existing government policy as it relates to the number of teachers in our schools. ~R. SPEAKER: MR. W. CARTER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition.

I suppose if it were possible to jointly present a petition then I would have to join my colleague and neighbor in the Ferryland district in presenting the petition because it was,I think,presented to us jointly and of course the

May 24, 1978 Tape 3454 PK - l Mr. W. Carter: signatures on the petition, numbering in all 1,282, contain a number of signatures from the electoral district St. Mary's-The Capes. I ?r ~leased to present the petition for a number of •·•'lat I thinl· good reasons, one being that there is a desperate need for that kind of pre-vocational training in the area. Secondly, of course, the fact that there are no trade schools within commuting distance from the areas mentioned, especiall.v fro!'1 the extreme areas mentioned, that of St.

Shotts and Trepassey, in my view indicates maybe that there is a great need for that kind of a facility. Thirdly, of course, the districts that we have the honour to represent, Ferry land and St. Hary 's - The Capes, are_ in everv sense of the woyd the rural districts. Ferryland district, and the district of St. Mary's-The Capes 3re working men's districts, a lot of blue collar workers are in the area. Now, of course, with the upswing in fishery activity in both districts there is a substantial work force developing in that area.

In fact, I suppose, in the two districts concerned, in the areas concerned I would suggest there are anywhere from 2,000 to 3,000 people employed in the processing sector of the fishing industry. And that in itself, Mr. Speaker, would indicate that there is need for some kind of a pre-vocational training facility in the area. It might well be that in the absence of a more sophisticated facility, maybe the mobile facilty concept,as pointed out in the coverinq letter with the petiti on,woul d suffice.

But certainly I l'e l i eve government will have to give some very serious thought to the construction of a fullfledged trade school in that particular area sometime in the near future. appreciate what my colleague, the Minister of Education,has done in that regard in many areas of the Province. think he will be probably speaking to this petition, and at the same time he will give some indication as to exactly how many of these facilities now exist in the Province. But, Mr. Speaker, in Newfoundland today, and not unlike other eras,we have had too many round pegs in square holes .as it were.

Of course, that stems mainly from the fact that there was too little attention given students in, especially, the

May 24, 1978 Tape 3454 PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: hi9h school area of our system with respect to pre-vocational training and trying to find out the various slots in which they were best suited. This kind of a facility, this pre-vocational facility will certainly help overcome that very serious problem, the problem again of having too many people being streamed in the wrong direction, and ending up in many cases trying to do work for which they are totally unsuited, and both psychologically as well as vocationally. So, Mr. Speaker, I am proud to support this petition.

I commend it to my colleague the Minister of Education with the strong request that every effort be made within the very near future to accede to the request of the petitioners. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise too to support the prayer of the petition presented by the member for Ferryland on behalf of 1 ,282 of the han. the member's constituents. The han, gentleman did not say whether any high school students actually signed the petition or if they were all voters. MR. POWER: I think there were somE, judging by the names. MR.

NEARY: Some of the names are of high school students,which goes to show the interest of the students in that area, in the district of Ferryland, and in St. Mary's-The Capes, Sir, to have pre-vocational training brought to the Southern Shore of this Province, not the only part of the Province,by the way, Sir, where the problem exists. Your Honour introduced a programme when he was Minister of Education, as my han. colleague pointed out to the House, an experimental one, a pilot project in Seal Cove that seemed to work out fairly well, but in all cases, believe, the students are brought to the vocational schools.

May 24, 1978 Tape 3455 IB-1 HR. NEARY: And in the case of Ferryland of course with the road conditions and · so forth they are not within commuting distance of the vocational schools 1 althou~h I believe the Fishery College does go out into the field, out in the rural areas. The Fishery College have training programmes that they bring into the communities. I do not know if they have any mobile equipment or not but I know they use whatever facilities are available, halls and the like belonging to the school boards and the churches in various parts of the Province.

But even they, I believe, have cut back on their programme of going out into the rural areas,which is rather unfortunate, Sir, in this day and age when we are trying to develop the fisher y in this Province. I was rather amused to say the least at the hen. Minister of Fisheries who on the one hand sits in Cabinet and goes along with a decision, assists in the taking of a decision to cut back in the field of education and then supports a petition in the House asking for expanded facilities in the field of education. MR. W. CARTER: A different direction. MR. NEARY: A different direction. Oh I see, Sir.

So it is a different direction.But what about the money? Is that - MR. W. CARTER: That is different. HR. NEARY: That is different. The hon. gentleman " sits down on the eighth floor and says, Yes, :!inister of Education you have to cut back. I am not resigni~g from the Cabinet because I go along with this decision of the Cabinet. Cabinet solidarity, we must be united. I am going along with this decision to cut back in the field of education, to lower the quality of education

• Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3455 IB-2 HR. NEARY: in this Province," and then comes into the Rouse and supports a petition presented by his colleague saying that we should have expanded educational facilities, in this case, pre-vocational facilities. I cannot sort of get the thing straight in my mind of how the minister can wear two hats in this particular case. I would suggest that the minister do his battling in Cabinet, fight with his colleague, the Minister of Education, in Cabinet. Well, Sir, it is a good petition,! believe.

It is a problem not only in the district of Ferryland but all over Newfoundland and Labrador,and I would say especially in Labrador. We have managed to build in this Province a technical college, a regional college on the West Coast, eighteen vocational schools, a College of Fisheries second to none in the world,and yet, Sit, we have not been able to reach a large number of young men and women who live in the rural parts of this Province and that is rather unfortunate indeed. I do not know if dormitories are the answer, by bringing the students in for a couple of days a week.

I do not know if that is the answer or getting mobile equipment to bring the facilities out to the schools but it is certainly something, Sir, that the Minister of Education and the Minister of Manpower are going to have I I to struggle with in the foreseeable future and see what can be done to bring pre-vocational training to the young _j men and women in the rural parts of this Province who are interested in this kind of training. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words in support of the petition presented by my friend from

~ . ' May 24, 1978 Tape 3455 IB-3 ~R. RIDEOUT: Ferryland. I think the concept that forms the prayer of the petition, Sir, is an excellent one especially as it applies to pre-vocational training and pre-vocational education in the rural parts of this Province. I would say to my friend from Ferryland, Mr. Speaker, that the concept that the petition talks about is not a new one. In fact,the very proposal itself as outlined in the prayer of this petition has been on the desk of the Premier for the last four or five months.

I do know that the Cape John Collegiate in LaScie,for example,in my district, which is thirty-five miles away from the vocational school in Baie Verte, a round trip of seventy miles and which therefore cannot take

part in any pre-vocational programmes, that they may offe~have already made a proposal to the government through the Premier and I would assume a copy to the Minister of Eduation - I have a copy of it - asking that this very type of programme that this petition calls for be set up in the rural areas of our Province. And I am very hopeful that now that a petition has been brought in by a member or a supporter of the government and supported as it appears, unanimously by this House, that the government, the Premier and the government will give very serious consideration to that type of programme.

It is very important as I have said in the rural areas of the Province, in the LaScie area of my district which is seventy miles by round trip away from any pre-vocational programme. It would be very important in the Roddickton-Englee area of my district which is a couple of hundred miles away from by round trip the nearest vocational school, in St. Anthony for example. So I think the concept itself is a good one, one that we

Hay 24,1978 Tape No. 3456 tili-1 HR. Rll>EOUT: ought to be exploring and getting into,and I would hope that some positive steps will be taken in this regard by the government,be it now that a petition has been brought in supporting the concept and also that the concept has been proposed to the Premier,as I have said, by the staff of the Cape John Collegiate and the Green Bay Integrated School Board some four or five months ago. Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in supporting the prayer of the petition. NR. SPEAKER: Hen. member for Terra Nova. NR. LUSH: Hr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support this petition, a rather unique petition, a good petition, a petition that is asking the government to provide the opportunity to give students more of an opportunity to develop their talents and their skills,to try and narrow the gap of equal educational opportunity as it exists in the urban areas of this Province and as it is in the rural areas of this Province,and to come closer to equality with the remainder of Canada where they have been doing this kind of work for years,offering students courses for which students might have other interests other than purely the academic work.

In the educational field and with the educational jargon what we would say is that this petition is a move from the Procrustean type curriculum. Procrustes was a creature of Greek mythology who took travellers,and the problem was that the beds were all the same size and if the traveller was too short to fit the bed then he was stretched and pulled until he fitt ed the bed,and if he was too tall then his legs were chopped off to bring him down to size.

That has been one of the major complaints with the school curriculum today, that it has been a Procrustean type curriculum, that we are making the students to fit the curriculum. This is a move whereby a student would be allowed to select courses for which he has some greater interest, for which he has more aptitudE\ ~d not force him into a stream for which he has no interest or no aptitude, a method to get away from the expression used by the hen. Minister of Fisheries of trying to put square pegs in round holes.

_·iay 24,1973 Tape No. 3456 AH-2 t!R.LUSH: So, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition wholeheartedly and would uope that the minister will be able to see fit to be able to accomodate the requests of the petitioners. I am not sure, ~~. Speaker, that it takes a great degree of effort and a great degree of expenditure to be able to do the kind of thing that petitioners are requesting. I believe that we can use many of our present,existing day schools to carry on pre-vocational education. I am sure that the sp~ce is there in lots of our schools to do this sort of thing.

I know that I got the request from one particular school in my district, in Glovertown, where they feel a little bit discriminated against because there is no vocational school in the area and they look just a short distance East and observ~ what is going on in Clarenville where the students there are exposed to the opportunities to pursue pre-vocational courses • This aspect, ~~. Speaker, of certain students given the opportunity to do pre-vocational courses has an awful lot to it more than meets the eye with respect to quality of education.

For example,students are relieved of their regular day school work to go and do those courses at the vocational schools while their regular day school teachers are left behind to prepare work fer the next day or the next week,thus improving the quality of education and yet in other areas they cannot have this kind of a service. It is unfortunate and I would hope that the minister would look into the possibility of seeing what can be done within our present day schools.

I know that equipment has to be purchased and this sort of thing,but I believe that we can do a much better job towards providing pre-vocational education for students in this Province by using our present day school facilities and it can

May 24, 1978 Tape 3457 Pk - 1 Mr. Lush: be done probably with not too much expenditures of the public dollars of this Province, and certainly what is spent would be well spent towards developing the skills and the talents of the young people of this Province, towards developing them to becoming contributing citizens to the economy of our Province. So I, Mr. Speaker, hope that the minister on rising and speaking in support of this petition will be able to announce to the House today that he plans to do something in this respect for the good of the students of this Province, and for the people of this Province.

SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. ROUSSEAU': Very seldom, Mr. Speaker, but today have to stand up and address myself to the concept of the petition. I certainly agree with it fully . I had some experience when I was the Princioal ~f the Sacred Heart

section of the J. R. Smallwood School in 'vabush a · few years ago, when we had an experiment up there. ~e had, of course, as many of you know what it was called the Wabush Plan ; the Roman Catholic

section and the Integrated

section got their own academic courses on their wings, and it was a central,shared facility that we both used and it was jointly administered by both principals, the Inte~rated principal and myself. AN RON. MEMBER: Shared? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. we shared teachP.rs. One

section was responsible for certain aspects of the courses, and the other

section was responsible for the other aspects. the administration and the hiring of teachers. And we had at that time industrial arts, home economics, music, physical education, art, all the subjects that are classified as non-academic. I think it is very important that students be given an opportunity to see the range of subjects that they may take a liking to. I think it is especially today, Mr. Speaker, since the trend is not really towards the university as it was a very short number of years ago. Many more students no\0! are attending the vocational schools, -and I think

May 24, 1978 Tape 3457 PK - 2 Mr. Rousseau: that giving a student the wide range of experiences in all aspects of education, it gives the student a better opportunity in consultation with his guidance counsellor to determine which area he would like to go into. For example, the general pass in Grade XI will accept a home economics or an industrial arts subject as one of the topics for - we started the programme in Grade VII and went through Grade Xl.

Industrial arts, for example, there was a course each year; Grade VII, I think, was carpentery,the first year, and then electrical, and mechanical, and so on through for five years. A lot of the students now after two or three years decided they did not want to do that. So, of course, it also poses a problem for time-tabling. But I think the situation that did occur at Wabush in the J. R.

Smallwood Collegiate, both sections certainly co-operated, think a lot of it depends on the personalities of the school boards and the personalities of the administration of both schools, but there is no reason why they cannot get along to such an extent that this sort of a programme enlarges quite heavily the scope of the educational system. It is a real practical problem that one school could do that.

But there is no reason why a number of schools could not get together and probably have one common~shared facility, a day and a half, two days a week, at least to give students the opportunity to react to these experiences.

And as I say I feel very strongly that now that the trend has been that the university is not the only place of higher learning in this Province, as I presume in other provinces, then we have an onus as government, as the House of Assembly,to ensure that each student gets the greatest possible range of experiences,and they cannot get that merely in the classroom doing the academic work because all of the teachers,! am sure, and I presume all the members of the House of Assembly know that a lot of more education goes on outside the four walls of the actual classroom than may go on inside the four walls of the classroom.

So there are a lot of ways that that can be done at lower cost. There are some of course that are going to take some cost but by co-operation amongst the schools and school boards, I thinr

May 24, 1978 Tape 3457 PK - 3 Mr. Rousseau: that the opportunity could be arranged whereby these students would have the broadest possible range of educational experiences which is most important to them in respect to choosing their future vocation in life, and their future higher seat, if any, of learning . Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: So I fully suppor t the concept of the petition, The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak to the petition and support it, I guess, in principle. I just ~tant to co11111ent first of all upon the progra11111e that is presently in place._ About 25 per cent of the high school students in the Province are actively taking

part in pre-vocational education, and contrary, I guess, to what is believed most of these pupils are from the rural parts of Ne\'tfoundland because usually the vocational schools in the larger centres are too over-crowded to use for pre-vocationa l . So it is about 24 per cent. I guess everybody

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3458 IB-1 MR. HOUSE: is aware that a few years ago an effort uas made through the federal government under the existing programmes that were in effect under the DREE schools to try and get them to support us on a seventy-five-twenty-five basis to build pre-vocational wings on all high schools. That was in Your Honour's time, of couse. But I think it was about a year and a half ago that we received word from them that that would not be possible because they were not supporting regular schools any further.

So that hope that we had to get that kind of thing and get programmes in all our high schools was quashed with that news from the DREE people. We are now working on a programme with our industrial arts to try and develop a programme. As the bon. member for Meniliek (Mr. Roussea~) just mentioned,they had an extensive programme in that school running from Grade VII through to Grade XI. I think this is the kind of thing we are thinking about now, ~d there is a programme being developed by our industrial arts consultant.

One of the real problems in Newfoundland, there are mixed feelings, I think, with educators across the Province. We do only have a three year high schdol programme, and a lot of people have mixed feelings about bringing in these kinds of programmes because they say our school career is too short and therefore we dilute our academic programme. And that is one of the best reasons that we see for the introduction of Grade XII, to expand the programme so that you can get at least an industrial component. And I think this is backed up very strongly by a recent book that is written by the C.T.F. secretary, Mr.

Gobel, who talks about half a revolution where he

May 24, 1978 Tape 3458 EC - 2 MR. HOUSE: says that the high schools across Canada by virtue of the fact that we are catering to all the pupils, we are not meeting their needs, and we are not meeting their needs because we are not catering to the utilitarian aspects of education which we call pre-vocational or industrial arts. So these things are being actively talked about now and the programmes are being developed. It is a matter of cost. I must admit it is going to be very costly.

And the other thing is, of course, there is a committee working on a programme for recommendations on Grade XII, so this will be all intertwined. And I am hopeful that in a few years we will have some very good programmes in the schools. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in support of the petition presented by the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power), the prayer of a petition that asks for improved educational opportunities overlapping in two districts, the district of Ferryland and the district of St. Mary's-The Capes.

And as former supporters of the petition in their remarks have said, Mr. Speaker, there is no question about it, the need is there. The students should be given every opportunity possible to avail themselves of the best educational opportunities. I know in my own home town of Norman's Cove, students at least once a week are bused from that high school to the vocational school in Placentia where they there get at least a taste of what goes on in the vocational school.

They get some of the skills, and, of course, no doubt this probably helps them and guides them into knowing perhaps and making up their mind whether or

~lay 24, 1978 Tape 3458 EC - 3 ~R. CALLAN: not they would like to enter this course or enter this trade or take up this trade when they have finished their high school academic programme. In supporting t h e prayer of the petition, Mr. SpeakPr - and I was rather reluctant, actually, to . rise and support the petition in the first place, because~ y ou k now, there was too much of a contradiction tbere. I was tempted, as I always am, to rise and support petitions that have to do with improved road conditions; I was tempted to rise and support that petition.

I did not do it because there seemed to be too much of a contradiction. I do not know, Mr . Speaker, what kind of a hypocrite the Minister of Tourism can be. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the bon. gentleman to withdraw that remark. ~IR . CALLAtl: Mr . Speaker, let me say that no member of this House of Assembly has any more respect for the Chair than I have, but

:1ay 24. 1978 Tape No. 3459 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: I believe that remark too sincerely to take it back. I was referring to the ~!inister of Tourism and I believe it too firmly to withdraw it. :!']{. SPEAKER: I call upon the hen. gentleman to ~nthdraw the remark. There are situations in which the Chair has options or judgements and discretion to exercise and there are situations in ~•hich the Chair has no discretion to exercise, situations in ~•hich the Chair is required,by the rules which govern hon. members, to take a specific course of action.

It is not my wish at all to have to take that course but the rule is totally operative on me. It would appear to me to be an anomaly if the hen. gentleman puts me in a position to do that. We are not in a heated debate, we are on petitions, I do not think there is any particular disagreement bet~veen hen. members on one side and the other side. Everybody assumably supports the petition. So it would be a most unusal situation in which I were to be required to take that action. Yet required I would be because the rules are as binding on me in their enforcement as they are on hen. members in their observance.

I therefore call upon the hen. gentleman to ~rlthdra"r the allegation of hypocrisy. The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what to say actuall y . As I already said,it is no reflection on the Chair whatsoe ver or this hnn. House. But I referred to two han. Cabinet Minis~PT~ ~hn spoke on petitions as being hypocritical and 9as I say,I believe it too sincerely and too firmly to withdraw. :1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think I did explain totally the position of the Chair and the rules of tne House in this respect. I have no choice. Bellevue, ~ !r. Wilson Callan.

I name the hen. member for The hen. Hinister of Education I thought had spoken on this petition. • -\..... HON. ~!E~!BER; ~ !aybe it i s another one •

:ray 23, 1973 Tape Xo. 3459 :·t! - 2 ~!R. SPEAKER: The hen. ~Iinister of Education. :!R. HOUSE: I-!r. Speaker, I wish to present a petition on behalf of 404 residents from the Hampde~ area and that covers I think the communities of Bayside, Rooms and Beaches ~d they are requesting action regarding television coverage_ in the area and the prayer of the petition reads that, "lre, the undersigned residents of Hampden do hereby petition the House of Assembly to put pressure on the CBC to honour their commitment made to us in a letter to have a television transmitter, a rebroadcaster for the community of Hampden" !!r.

Speaker, the first efforts were made in 1971 to ~et a better signal in that area and there was a promise made in 1973. At the present time the signal­ from the Bay Verte area,I think, and !lat:!pde~ is farther up the Bay and there is not a good signal_ the signal is weak at times and it is almost invisible, and when they are watching television, watchin~ a hockey game of course and see a scramble in front of the net and cannot see the puck you get a little frustrated. But when you are watching it in Hampden you cannot see the puck at all. This is the kind of coverage that they are getting.

They are not asking for two stations. I have heard petitions coming in asking for a second station, they are just asking for a signal. ~lR. LUNDRIGAJ."!: Hey, 'l-Jallace~ They had to shovel Perry }!ason up a bank of snow, did they no-::? MR. HOUSE: That is right. Last year the former .Min1.Rter of Transportation and Communications had written, as I did, and they promised that they would have a new facility there this year, by the end of this year, the current year 1978.

And that was the fifth promise, I think. ~d now they get a letter back last week saying that they regret to advise that there has been some delays in their accelerated coverage plan implementation and no.- the projected date

' 1ay 24, 1978 Tape :·To. 3459 N!1 - 3 c!P.. HOUSE: is December 1979. So ~;hat it is the people feel that they are not being taken seriously, that they are being put off year after year, They have

~lay 24, 1978 Tape 3461J DH - 1 ~lR. HOUSE: been advised that it is not a very costly operation to install that particular facility so they are asking now this House to apply pressure-or the House to ask government to apply pressure to get the action taken this year. So I wish to table the said petition and have it referred to the appropriate department. MR.. SPEAKER : ~ffi. S • NEARY : pleasure, Sir, to support the - SOME RON. ~~ERS: MR. S. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoil"e. ~~r. Speaker, it gives me great Oh, oh! - prayer of this petition, Sir. This is not the first time, Hr.

Speaker, that ~~e have had a petition in this bon. House criticising the services and the programming provided by the CBC,by the Canadian· Broadcasting Corporation,by the publicly Gwned Caradian Broadcasting Corporation, which was set up as an instrument of national purpose which turned out to be an instrument of national destruction.

In my own district of LaPoile we have had untold complaints about the programming and about the reception of CBC television on the Southwest corner of the Province and along the Southwest Coast,in Grand Bruit and LaPoile in my own district and further down in Grey River.I think they have rectified the situation no~· more or less in Ramea. They have made some adjustments to the transmitter that was put in there last year and so reception is a little bit better now, Sir, in r-rand Eruit and LaPoile and in the Grey River area• than it ~~as heretofore.

They had an awful ~ot of interruptions,But the programming is still lousy. The people would go out of their minds, Sir, they nearly flipped their lids at what they are forced to watch. A!'l HO!l. ~·®'illER: They can switch back and forth. MR. S. NF..ARY: No, they cannot switch back and forth, there is only one channel in the area, • They go berserk, Sir, having to vlatch the so-called Canadian content.

!lay 24, 1978 . Tape 3460 DH - 2 ~!R. S. NEARY: And I believe next month 1 in June, the owner of the private station is being hauled, dragged into court because he violated the crrTC regulations on Canadian content,and I believe as members of this House, Sir, that ••e should come out in support of the ~on. gentleman.! was almost tempted myself to have a province-wide petition circulated saying how much we appreciate the work that has been done by the private broadcasting corporation in this Province, the NBC teil.evision ,in providing us •~ith some decent programming.

And now we have the CRTC, aided and abetted by the publicly owned proadcasting corporation that is costing the taxpayers of this nation I believe $500 million a year ,shoving down our throats programs,so-called Canadian content that we do not want,and it is about time that we let them know up in the Mainland that~~ do not want this.

It is alright in Toronto or in Montreal-They can get cable television,they can get a half a dozen channels from down across the border down in the United States but here, Sir, in the rural parts of this Province,in the remote areas,they are forced to watch one channel and that is the CBC,and that is bad enough but then they are forced to watch so much -what is the p~rcentage, do you remember? AN HON. MEMBER: It is a high percentage. ~'R. S.

NEARY: It is a high percentage anyt~ay of so-called Canadian content and apparently the so-called Canadian content, Sir, the sexier they make it,the more vulgar language they use in these programmes,so-called Canadian content,they think that makes them popular 1 makes it popular. AN HON. !-'EMBER: (Inaudible) HR. S. NEARY: And the minister agrees with me and I am glad the minister agrees with me becau.se it is true. We have been at this now for so long! 'In Labrador West: - MR. ROUSSEAU: They are going to have their (inaudible) ~ornnr~tion.

"ay :!4, 1978 Tape 3460 D~' - 3 HR. S. NEARY: Thank Cod we are goin g to get rid of Peter Gzowski . Thank Cod he is going. There would be more televisions broken up,smashcd up in Labrado r West and down in my own district and along the Southwest Coas~ if they left that nincompoop on the air! He may be a good man for what he is used to doing,a news man. HR. ROUSSl".AIT: CllC (Inaudible) ~ . S. NEARY: An.d then on top of that in Labrado r West they are forced to vatc:h so much French, are they ~ not? no they still have that policy down there? ~I R. ROUSSI::AU: 'f'o~o channels. ~!R .

S. ~EA!!Y: Well , two channels - Gzowski should come down here and cover the House. HR.. S. NEARY: Yes, that is right. Peter Gzo~o.·ski can no~o.• move down here and do what he is best at and that is do news, news covarage. He tnight-: come dmro. we u:ight be able to get the CBC reporters removed from the gallery and bring in Peter Gzowski to see if we can get some objective repo!ting from this Rouse to CBC.That might be a good job for the hon. gentleman. But after all we have s aid about him~ he may not be

:ray 24, 1979 Tape }fo. 3461 :m - 1 !ffi.. ~ARY: so objective after all. But, Sir, I support the prayer of the petition. And I do not know when, ~1r. Speaker, I do not know when the word is going to fil~er through to the Government of Canada and the CRTC that we are fed up to our teeth with the service and with the programming and with the reception that we are getting in this Province from the publicly owned Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. It is time for them to do somethi~g about it or get out of the business altogether and turn it over to private enterprise.

Let the CBC look after the rural parts of the Province, as they are supposed to be doing. It is a shame, ~1r. Speaker. There is nothing, Sir, that I - I cannot find adjectives to describe my feelings about the matt.er. When I go down to my own district, and I was down again this weekend,and the main complaint in my district, the main complaint is with television reception and with the CBC programming.

I bet you if you went into the rural parts of this Province and you said, '~at is the number one problemi" -because I did a survey of Labrador, as my hon. friend bows, and the number one complaint was not air services, was not hospital services, was not unemployment- the number one complaint, Sir, was radio and television programming and recertion. ~ot so much now radio because the private stations have gone into Labrador, and have gone into the rural areas. Dr. Noel l!urphy' s station has gone into Wabush. They are down in my district. They are all over the Province.

But television, Sir, is bad, and it is about time that something was done about it. !lR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism follm~ed by the hon. member for Port au Port. !-ffi.. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in saying a few words in support of this petition, I would point out that the correspondence

'·lay 24. 1978 Tape No, 3461 :nr - 2 :-!R. HORGA.~: att~ched to the petition as Hinister of Transportation and Communications I tvas involved in this matter in Hampden I was involved in fact in a number of communities around the Province. And as a result of many complaints and requests of this nature for extended coverage by CBC TV, and in fact improved radio broadcast reception as well,as a result of these requests and complaints a study was commenced back in 1978 and financed by both levels of government, Federal and Provincial Governments, to determine the problem that e>;ists.

The problem was clearly defined and in Hampden, for example,! note with some astonishment that despite the firm cotmnitment given to me while Hinister of Co=unications by the regional engineer of CBC to the extent that there would be a relay or a rebroadcaster established in Hampden in '7B,I notv find that correspondence sent just recently, I think it is Mr. Osmond who is the Chairman of the Committee in the area, again by CBC saying that they apologize for the delay and they regret the delay, that now there will be no relay centre constructed there or rebroadcaster until some time in '79.

And the fact that it has been going on since 1973 is annoying to me because it was a firm commitment given while I was Minister of Communications that it would be done this year. Now I would like to make one point, Mr. Speaker, that presently there is legislation drafted and ready for the House of Commons by the Federal !-linister of CoiTI!I!unicatior..s. It is called the new communications legislation,or act.

In that legislation it points out that the CRTC 1vill be instructed by the Governor in Council, in this case the Federal Cabinet, to have the carriers, in this case the CBC. which is owned by the taxpa yers of the Country, to instruct them to go into areas and to improve the reception of TV and radio. And I think it is long overdue. It is good legislation on the part of the federal minister. I agree with it totally. I was involved in the drafting of the legislation, involved by. means of co~sultation with all the ministers across the nation,and it

'l ay 24 . 1978 !ape No . 341)1 ~. ~!ORGAN: is about ~e. in my vie~, that the CRTC can come along to C~C and actually tell t hem, instruct them! The taxpayers are payL~g for the operation of CBC. They cannot so to Hr. Stirling of the NBC network but they can come to CBC and say, ·~ou get into Hamoden. and do a rebroadcast centre or a relay centr e." And it is long overdue because 1 hate to see a situatio n where - 1n St.

John's today we have cable television in certain areas , switch from channel to channel, channel to channel, all kinds of movies and TV news broadcasts , etc., from across the liSA and across the :tat ion, but go to parts of my colleagu .e' s distric t and he cannot even get one TV channel . And I think it is time that we recognize the needs of the rural parts of our country, in this case the CBC, the ~ational Broadcast Corp~ration, recognize the needs of rural Newfm:ndland and Labrador . Anc! this is lon:;

Hay 24,1978 Province. l:!R. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: Tape No. 3462 AH-1 overdue when they can be told what to do in our Hon. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I would like to as well speak on this problem.r suppose it is too .bad that the Minister of Intergovennmental Affairs is not here because perhaps he could take it up with some of his counterparts in Ottawa. In the district which I represent we have a problem which is probably unique in that we have three TV stations, one which is the French network.

Now there are two or three communities in the district which are basically French 1where about, I would say,sixty to seventy per cent of the people in those communities speak French in their bomes,or the older people speak French :,but there is one community in particular which is,I suppose,the most French community in the district. Now a couple of years ago Radio Canada,or the CBC,put a French transmitter in the area to service or for the benefit of the people. It was requested by the people of that area and it is something that is really needed to preserve the culture •.

The French speaking people there are trying to hold on to their culture, They are not allied with Quebec, they are French Newfoundlanders and there is a French immersion programme in one of the schools. But the odd thing about it is that this transmitter,while the people of Stephenville get - it is the best channel we get, the French channel­ the people of Kippens and Port au Port,where there is very little French spoken, they all get the French channel,but the people in the community of Hainland do not receive that channel, they cannot get the channel.

The channel was actually put there and meant for them and many, many letters have gone to the CRTC and the CBC but we have had no action on it. I would like to see some action taken on that. As far as the other channels are concerned,I understand that except for the fact that the CJON signal is weak there,and there are problems from time to time~basically they are okay, While I am speaking on this I would like to say one other thing,that the fishermen in the district

:•lay 24,1975 Tape ;~o. 3462 Ah-2 NR.

HODDER: of Port au Port, it is a developing fishery and it is also a fishery where there are no harbours so that the fishermen must depend on the weather forecast wore than most fishermen around the Province because they just cannot go in and tie up in a sheltered place, I would like for anybody in the galleries from the CBC to take note of this, I wiLl be writing later on to the CBC : when I get a chance,but the fishermen have asked me, they all watch that Here and Now programme and they have asked me if I would try to get in touch with the CBC to get a good marine weather forecast; they say that the forecast that they personally get is not adequate.And it is the time of the day when they are all home; usually very early in the morning they are aLl gone and they do not get back and that is the one that they always watch, It is at the right time of the evening for them and they have asked for a good marine weather forecast.

Now I know that has nothing to do with the petition but I thought I would say it anyhow. I will just end by saying that I do sy;apathize with the problems of the people of Hampden and I do hope that something will be done to alleviate their problems. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Conception Bay South. Mil.. NOLA. 'I : Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I am only kidding. I certainly rise to support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker.

I believe it is time that the citizens of this country - I talk about Canada and in our particular case the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador- to take a good hard look at the operation of the CBC as it is constituted both provincial!~ and nationally. Nationally of course we should have greater imput from the CRTC insofar as the functioning and operation of the CBC is concerned.

When I rise to castigate the CBC,as I do,I want it clearly understood that throughout the network there are some quite remarkable, talented and creative people both in the technical ~nd , the production and every other side of the broadcast and telecast media.

Tape No. 3462 Al!- 3 .lay 24 ' 1978 l!IR.NOLAN: !iowever,as one who spent a good chunk of his life in the private broadcasting,may I say that within tht CllC we have criticized from time to time in this !louse, as metlbers of tile Oppositio n and as have members,I might say,on the opposite side,of certain bureaucratic structures that we have created and buil t up in provincial agencies and corporations of one kind or another; what we do not have a crack at often enough I am afraid is the CBC. As one li1ho, as I said,spent most of his life in private broadcasting,! can

May 24, 1978 Tape 3463 EC - 1 MR. NOLAN: tell you that some of the fat cats that operate - some of the so-called intellectual elite which are enough to turn your guts­ that operate both nationally and provinciallyare enough to make you sick of this corporation. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: I am not satisfied even with, as the hon. member opposite, and minister indicated, to have perhaps the necessary guidance from the CRTC. I think it is too far removed in many instances, because oftentimes it does not get down to the local level, at least to the point that I would like to see it.

I do not know if it is possible or not, but is it beyond the wit of man, is it so unrealistic that there could not be a board of directors of some kind of citizens - plain, ordinary citizens - and they are the only product you have if you are in the media. If you are in the business of radio and television, either you have the viewers or the listeners or you have not, and if you have not you are out of business or you should be.

Now in the case of the C.B.C. in comparison to much that goes on in the private network and on~ I am sure, as my hon. friend, the Speaker, who spent some time in the trade in his day will perhaps testify, if you were to see sometimes the behaviour of some of these nitwits in their arrogant behaviour who feel because they are with the C.B.C. that it is a sort of broadcast senate seat! MR. NEARY: Rear, hear! MR. NOLAN: To hell with this! I mean, I am talking about men and women who have to make a living . I am also talking about the situation where you have perhaps the most powerful media in the world, the most

May 24, 1978 Tape 3463 EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: powerful of all perhaps particularly when you realize the numbers of hours a day that children and adults spend looking at T.V., we have got to have a say in what is there. If we put not a cent into it at all, we have a right to offer our feelings and expressions and so on. We have a duty to do so, but if we are paying for it we are negligent and derelict in our duty if we do not see to it and speak out when we see something that is going on. Those who operate oftentimes in the private sector must feel like they are a welfare package beside the C.B.C.

Sometimes when you have one or two bodies to produce a programme on the private side you may have fifteen or more in the C.B.C. "MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. NOLAN: And I think it is wrong, because oftentimes the product coming out the other end is not that good. There has to be a greater local input into the operation of the C.B.C. in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: We have to have, I believe, a good look on behalf of all citizens to see what they would want in the type of broadcasting they are getting.

I mean, have we now reached the point where the C.B.C. is only good enough for the mighty elite in St. John's or the major metropolitan areas? AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: Are those who are living in the more remote areas that my friends opposite and on this side refer to, I mean, are they broadcast scruff? Are they not entitled to the same division of the dollar and of the media for educational purposes or whatever as anyone else? Who do they think they are in the C.B.C.? Sometimes

~!ay 24, 1978 Tape 3463 EC - 3 HR. NOLAN: their behaviour indicates quite clearly that they have sort of an alleged intellectual snobbery that makes them feel that they know what is best for this country and for its people. Well, it is time that the people on the other end of the box started speaking back and to do so strongly. The C.B.C. is not performing its function either nationally or provincially and it is time now that those of us who are aware of what has happened to the remote areas of this Province where they are being neglected by this massive electronic giant - AN HON. l1EMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

NOLAN: - it is time that they paid their dues to the people who are paying the shot. And no longer should we sit back and bow and cow to that tribe, because that is exactly what some of them have become. I believe, in fact, that unless more ordinary people speak out - you do not have to have spent a lot of your life in broadcasting to speak out about what you see on radio and television, your opinion is important,too. The trouble with Newfoundlanders oftentimes we are too darned used to accepting anything and everything that anyone wants to feed us from Toronto. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NOLAN: AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. NOLAN: it. AN RON. MEHBER: MR. NOLAN: Hear, hear! Too complacent. Too complacent. That is right. And it is time we put a stop to Right. So I certainly support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Ha y 24, 1978 }!R. SPEAKER: Labour and Manpower. HR. ROUSSEAU: Tape 3463 EC - 4 The bon. the Minister of I fully support the petition , Mr. Speaker. I remember in late 1974 and 19 75 when I was ·Minister of Transportation and Communications I kept hearing about this accelerate ·d package plan ,and I said t hen somewhere during that time, between Oct o ber, 1974 and October, 1975 that the only acceleration in the plan was at a rate that the C. B. C. wanted .

It is not too often that one can stand up in the House of Assembly and say that he can speak and know that every constituent in his constituency supports the statement he is going to make, but I have no doubt about saying right now that the people of Henihek, Wes ter n Labrador,would

May 24, 1978, Tape 3464, Page 1 -- PK MR. ROUSSEAU: string me up if I did not say how very, very, very, very, very pleased we are that Mr. Gzowski is no longer on the late night night show. I believe that other hon. members in Labrador may feel the same way. MR. ROBERTS: I think several of us would second that motion. MR. ROUSSEAU: It is unfortunate that we had to put up with him so long because of the fact that he had such a long term contract, CBC could not get out of it.

It would be an idea if they could have cut off his Newfoundland coverage and taken that amount of his contract prorated per capitaforour share of it and did some improvements to the CBC across this Province, I think it would have served a lot better use for the money. So we are pleased with that. It is always difficult in any town or community where there is only one outlet, be it CBC or CTV, to not have that alternative as we do have. It would be very interesting now if we could get a poll to find out just what coverage - MR. ROBERTS: A poll! The hon. gentleman would be out of a cabinet seat if that happened.

MR. ROUSSEAU: - is in the new cable television, just what percentage of viewers that CBC have now in relation to what they had prior to the introduction of cable in the Province. So I fully support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and hope that the CBC will look at this coverage they have in these smaller towns and smaller communities around the Province, especially where there is one outlet, to ensure that they do get the best possible reception. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to take a minute or so to support the prayer of the petition presented by my friend from Humber Valley (Mr. House). The petition, I believe, is signed by some 400 - odd of my fellow native

May 24, 1978, Tape 3464, Page 2 -- pk MR. RIDEOUT: residents of White Bay in the Hampden area, Hampden, I would assume, the Rooms and the Beaches, and probably, I do not know if it goes up as far as Jackson's Arm, Sops Arm, and Pollard's Point or not, but certainly that area would be the coverage area of the reception area referred to. Mr. Speaker, I think the Provincial Government, the Department of Communications should bring as much pressure to bear as they can on the CBC and the Federal Government to continue with this accelerated coverage programme that has worked so many wonders in areas of my district.

Eight or ten communities in the Baie Verte Peninsula portion of my district last year, this past year, were fortunate enough to be covered under this accelerated coverage programme, and despite the objections of the late night viewing that we get from time to time, people have been very pleased in that they have been able to get one channel relatively good. I understqnd that last year there was some sort of interprovincial Committee set up between the Provincial Department of Communications and the Federal Department of Communications to work on the further development of T.V.signals in this Province.

I do not know what has happened to that Committee. I have not heard any­ thing from it since. MR. PECKFORD: They are making a report. MR. RIDEOUT: They are making one. So it would be interesting, Mr. Speaker, to see the report and I hope that they will recommend that this accelerated coverage programme be further accelerated, if that is possible.

Yet, I am very concerned in that the Minister of Education gave us reason to believe today that the programme rather than accelerated has been decelerated in that some of the areas that have been promised reception in this current fiscal year have apparently been chopped off the programme. And I have a

May 24, 1978, Tape 3464, Page 3 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: number of areas in my own district - Pacquet, Ming's Bight, and a couple of other areas that come to mind - that have been promised improved reception under that programme this year. So I would hope that the Federal - Provincial Committee that has been dealing with the whole issue of T.V. signals and improved T.V.signals will have some very strong recommendations to make.

And I would hope that the Provincial Government will take a strong stand also \ with out Federal comrades in Ottawa to ensure that the accelerated coverage programme of the CBC is further accelerated, if that is possible, until the whole of rural Newfoundland at least receives an adequate signal from the publicly owned corporation. Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in supporting the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Falls, followed by the hon. gentleman for the Straits of Belle Isle. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I have just done a little rundown and discovered that we have had fifty petitions presented to the Legislature so far this year. I believe the hon. minister presented number five zero, 50. And what I am really wondering is, Mr. Speaker, what time is somebody in the House going to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes on, because effectively what we are doing

.... ~!ay 24, 1'?78 Tape No. 3465 N!1 - 1 MR. L UNDRI GAN: here, '1r, Speaker, \;e have fifty communities that are under th~ illusion that there is some effectiveness to presenting a petition to our Legislature. And I am suggesting, :!r. Speaker, that basically the proced~re is outmoded, that the people are under a false ill~sion,that collectively we are practicin~ a form of hypocrisy by continuing to stand in our places day after day and trying to indicate to the people that there is some means whereby there is an effective result from the presentation of petitions.

And I am suggesting that all of us are really guilty of a form of misleading the public by encouraging petitions, by having them presented,by standing in our place and doing it, as we do from day to day. The effectiv~~ess is pretty close to zero and I believe it is about time that we assess the whole problem of the presentation of petitions, Your Honour has been a little bit lenient with me but I had to get that point on the record. MR. SPEAKER: Belle Isle. l1R.

ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Straits of Mr, Speaker, a number of hon, ·members have spoken with eloquence and feelin~ on the petition and I want to support it,but I cannot add a great deal to the points which they have made so I will not attempt to reiterate their points except to say that I susbscribe to them. And I may add I subscribe to L~e point of view expressed by the hon. gentleman from Grand Falls (Hr.

Lundrigan) who has returned from Houston and I think he with reason ought to have been proud of the appearance in Houston and of the recognition which was given to a campaign in which he had such a prominent part. But I think we might have a look, indeed I have long felt that we in this House might have a look at the petition procedure, not just in interal procedure,although it is a matter

:1ay 24, 1978 Tape No. 3465 l'nl- 2 ~!R. ROBERTS: of interest that after an hour and twenty-five minutes of the one day of the week allotted to private members we are now still on the petition procedure, and I believe almost all of them have been have been presented by the gentlemen on the other side. SOME RON. :1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: Not all of them, _Some have and my friend the House Leader says some have not. But in any event, I thiuk my friend from Gr~nd Falls (~r. Lundri~an) made a valid point and I hope it is one that meets the consideration it merits.

I would like to support the petition, Sir, but I would like to go one step further, because I think there is something which this government can do with a view towards improving the television service available to the people of this Province. Now my constituency receives television only from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. There is a repeater station in behind Conche, between Conche and Roddickton,and there is a large one at St. Anthony and most places in the Strait of Belle Isle · district now get adequate CBC television coverage. The people who live over on the St.

Barbe Coast, the Southern part of it, do not because of some peculiar geographic considerations and I believe the same is true of the Hampden area. I think they are in behind the hills and that is what causes the problem. ~y concern is with that situation surely, but also with a much broader situation and that is the fact that there are still a significant number of citizens in this Province, among them all of my constituents, 1~ho have access tg only one half the television service. And I listened to most ·of the remarks in support of the petition that have been made this afternoon.

I do not think I have heard anybody say that. Well I would like to say that in my constituency the issue is not simply television, it is getting a second channel and I think that is a valid issue. I think the people

~ tay 24, 1~78 Tape No. 3465 ~~ - 3 MR. ROBERTS: in this Cou.~try have a right ~~m.. NEARY: You did not hear ~•hat I said on that. ~IR. ROBERTS: Well I did not hear what my hon. frienci from LaPoile (~r. Neary) said. TI1e han. member for LaPoile speaks more often than I can listen to him. I am afraid this is once when I was not listenin~ to him. But I think the same is probably true up in parts of his district, up in the district of LaPoile on the Southwest Coast. ~m. NEARY: Outside. of Port aux Basques. MR. ROBERTS: Outside of the town of Cl~el - Port aux Basques itself.

I think the government of this Province, Sir, can take a responsibility here because there is a solution anc it is not a terribly expensive one. For want of a few hundred thousand dollars, say the cost of running a helicopter for a year, or that kind of money, small repeaters could be made available or,for example,the big television tower which CBC have at St.. Anthony could have installed on it equipment which would pick up the CJON or the CTV signal and rebroadcast it.

And I would think the kind of repeater which is going to be needed in Hampde~ could be provided in a number of places throughout this Province and would enable people to have both television channels. Upon the Southern Shore, the district represented by my friend from St. }~ry's- The Capes (Mr. W. Carter), there are a number of these small repeaters which are owned in most cases by coiDIIIunity organizations • lfy friend says three • At least one of them,I believe,was funded originally by a grant from the old Community and Social Development Department, by provincial government money.

It does not interfere with the federal jurisdiction l;;ecause all we are talking about is the o~mership. They are licenced by CRTC and they are subject to the CRTC jurisdiction. HR. W. CARTER: Only $6,000 or $7,000.

Hay 24, 1978, Tape 3466 }1R. ROBERTS: My friend for St. Mary's The Capes (Mr. W. Carter) says it is only ~6,000 or $7,000 And my point is for a relatively small aliiOunt of money, Sir, the goverument of this Province-! think the government will have to do it.CTV have not got the money to do it,!t is not worthwhile in economic terms.It does not increase their audience enough to enable them to charge more monev on commercials and thus make back their investment.

CBC have no interest in it, CBC are providing coverage through ttair o•Nn system and only worried about their own channel,their own service,their own network. The only way we are going to m,r - 1 get it is if the government .of the ::>rovince does it.The national government should do it,perh~ps we could say,but they are not going to.

So I simply say to the Minister of Education,who presented the petition~that the most useful thing he could do-and it is not contrary to the constitution,and it is not contrary to precedent,and I submit it is not contrary to good polic y-the most useful thing that the hon. gentleman could do would be to persuade his colleagues in the Cabinet to take a relatively small amount of money and over the next two or three years to provide all of the people of this Province with access to both television channels.

Let us not slough it off on Ottawa.Ottawa are not going to do much more than thev have done and that is to provide CBC service. It need~ to be improved,well then let us improve it, but Ottawa will not do what needs to be done which is to provide all of the people of this Province with access to both televsion channels. And I think that is the very least that people have;I think the people who live along the Northern Penninsula or along the Southern Coast of Labrador ought to be able to have a choice in what they watch on their televisionjor the people in LaPoile,or the people in

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3466 HR. ROBERTS: the bottom of White Bay,or the people in the district of Terra Nova or anywhere else-I could name many other places throughout this Province-ought to be able to have the same right to watch both television channels. And I think it is something the Government of the Province can do and I would say, Sir, if the Government of the Province cares at all about this they will do it and they w~ll start now. HR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: I support the petition. The hon. member for Terra ~·ova. Mr.

Speaker, I want to gtye my Dlol- 2 support to this petition as well because I can certainly sympathize with the residents of Hampden who are requesting improved television reception. }!r.

Speaker, it is one thing to talk about the remote areas of this Province not having a good television reception and to talk about areas that are right in the mainstream of the activities of this Province though neither should be ~~~hout them,but it is one t~ing to talk about the remote places and those places that are in the mainstream of the provincial activities,and I refer to my own district in the center of Newfoundland with no effective television reception from either channel~from either station.

In Glovertown we happen to have good reception because of the private cable there,but outside of that there is no good quality reception in any part of the district and I think that is disgraceful, ·a district representing about 12,000 people all within • the center part of our Province and these ~eople not being provided with good television service. Mr. Speaker, it is somethin~ that has to be corrected and,as was suggested by my hon. ~riend for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts), there is no way we can expect the CTV network to provide this service because in many parts of rural Newfoundland the economic base is just not there to give these people the return on their investMents. So there is a distinct obligation on the part of government to provide

}ray 24. 1978 · Taoe 3466 l'lR. LUSH: ou-r c~tizen.s,to provide rural Ne101foundland with the television service · that the y deserve and that they want and that they expect. It is another example Mr. Speaker, of rural Newfoundland being discriminated against by the gove mment of this Province. _\ntl, 1-ir . Sjjeake ·r, it is with pleasure that I support this petition and hope that in the not too distant futur e that all of the people of this Prov i nce , all of the co1l111lunities of t his P·rovince,every area of t his Province w~ be af f orded the oppo-::-::unit y o f g etti ng good television reception not from one channel but frOill two channels. SOHE HON . m !J3ERS : Hear, hear! nH - 3

May 24, 1978 Tape 3467 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may have but a few words in support of this petition. We have, ever since I have been a member of this House, had a number of petitions coming in each year praying and seeking the same relief. I can recall first when they started coming in they were not acceptable to this House.

The phrase used to be that they had to be presented in another place, meaning Parliament, but very properly we have been receiving them and forwarding them, I guess the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, to his counterpart, the Minister of Transport in Ottawa. What the hon. gentleman from the Straits (Mr. Roberts) says has a great deal of merit, but forgetting the constitutional niceties, I do not think we should lose sight of the fact as to who has the obligation to provide that service in the first instance, and I resist and resent - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: I know.

Ottawa will say they are providing it, but as the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says they are not providing it, they are miserably failing in their responsibility to provide it. And I do not think it hurts to remind them. And there is no reason why this Province should,except as a last resort, have to dip into the Provincial Treasury and use provincial funds to discharge an obligation that sits squarely with the Government of ~anada, and it does. There are a couple of other points that have been made by hon. gentlemen in supporting this petition. One is the Canadian content. And I am on all

Hay 24, 1978 Tape 3467 EC - 2 HR. HICKMAN: fours with the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in his views on this Canadian content. It is a sign, in my opinion, of an inferiority complex on the part of the people of Upper Canada. They force us to watch Canadian programmes. I know that there are many people~ young people in particular in Newfoundland who love to watch American football, but that is precluded to them because they have to watch Canadian football, which is probably entertaining as well. And it is done because of great agitation in Upper Canada.

But really, you know, those Upper Canadian viewers are not paying the supreme sacrifice and watching some of this Canadian content stuff because they have a half dozen American channels that they can pick up direct, but they are using residents of Atlantic Canada and the far West to sort of boost their own morale because of their so-called insistence upon Canadian content. I wish, Mr. Speaker, that both T.V. stations operating in this Province were allowed to use more non-Canadian content.

If the Canadian actors and actresses and artists want to have their programmes shown on any T.V. station, all they have to do is be just as good as their international counterparts. There would be no problem. But we should not have this stuff forced down our throats if we do not want it. We should be given the freedom of choice. In the areas of Newfoundland now that have cable television, I would guess that the viewing audience on cable television is substantially higher than on the Canadian networks.

And I note that watching the main station --that Nova Scotians are advertising their products in Nova Scotia over that station, obviously aimed at Canadian viewers. And I saw the other night an advertisement

Ma y 24 , 197 8 Tape 34 67 EC - 3 MR. HICKMAN: for some Newf~undland performances as well. Mr. Speaker, I have to confess that I cannot join with some of the bon. gentlemen opposite in wholesale condemnation of the C.B.C. I have found the C.B.C. to be doing a very good job. I only have one p!ea to them and to the media - when they are giving the news would they give the facts and when they editotialize, which they are entitled to do at any time, will they please say, 'We are editorializing. This is our opinions.' And with that, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that you would find that we would have pretty top ~ate med~a performance in both telev~sion stations in the Province. There is a very interesting editorial in a magazine that I receive, and I am sure some hon. gentleman in this House do as w.ell, called the United Church Observer. There is an editorial by Dr. A. C. Forest on the role of the media in Canada and in the United States, and he makes a very good point that there has been a moving away from factual reporting ever since the Washington Post received their kudos in w'atergate. ·.

:Iav Z4 , 1978 Tape No. 3468 N!1 - 1 MR. HICKMAN: that magazine or paper, and some of the reporting staff, in their anxiety to uncover some unto,•ard activities in Washington, they themselves invaded a lot of civil rights in their anxiety to accomplish this and everyone thought it was- all right at the time. Now they are beginning to realize that there can be no excuse for invading the civil liberties of anyone. The result is that there is a strong voice being heard now amongst people such as Dr. Forest that there be some return to factual reporting. But in any event, Mr.

Speaker, I have no hesitancy in joining hon. gentlemen in supporting this petition which was so ably presented by an hen. gentleman on this side of the House. }lR. SPEJ>.KEP.: MR. C. PO\IIER: The hen. member for Ferryland. Last but not least, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say a few words on the petition. I certainly will not take very long, but I support the petition in its entirety.

The concept that in certain parts of Newfoundland people cannot get the basic amenities of life, which in this case means good television reception, one of the things I want to point out is that this problem does not pertain itself particularly to areas that are far away from the urban centres of Ne~vfoundland. The community of Petty Harbour is a prime example, which exists only five or six miles away from the station itself, and in most of the North Side of Petty Harbour TV reception is almost absolutely negligible. It just is not there. The same in many other communities in my district.

Again the problem that we have is this discrimination against many parts of rural Ne"foundland where CRTC will give licences for people to operate in an economically viable area and rule out many of the outports of Newfoundland. I think that is grossly unfair. I am not at all sure that I do not agree 1vith the mer.ilier for the Straits of Belle Isle (~1r. Roberts) ~o·ho says that sooner or later the government has got to take res ponsibilit y,

:•.ay Z4, 1Si'3 Tape :;o. 3468 :,;p_ , C. ?OWER: or someone has got to take responsibility and settle the problem there and say irregardless of vlhether the radio stations are gain~ to do it or not then the government will come in and say, "Look,through the CRTC licencing progr=e we will force you to go and give equal reception to all areas or otherwise the goverilDlent will subsidize those areas lvhere reception is not available in a decent means. ::-tr. Spea:~er, I support the petition !!...."\. SPE.ii.KER: The han. member for Kilbride. fully. 1-'R. HELLS: Xr.

Speaker, I thinlc that we might as well enjoy ourselves. The petition period, if there is such a period in the House, I think this is what it ought now to be c~<lled, has become a time v;hen we can range over the subject natter lvhich - }!R. NEARY: Usually Private Members' Day. MR. WELLS: Oh on other days,too,really, So we might as well enjoy ourselves and do it, And I support the petition of course because I believe that anybody who wants to have access to a service such as television should have it. It is one of the things tha~ we give out.

But the interesting thing is, and there has been some comment made by the membe• for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) and the han. Attorney General on this question of content,I wonder if we are really enrichin~ our lives in this count~ by television. I have the private opinion and express it now. MR. ROBERTS: But the hon. gentleman does not get All in the F~<milv and qther cultural essentials. MR. WELLS: MR. ROBERTS: Assembly will be televised, MR. WELLS: There are worse than- All in the Family. Yes, the Gong Show.

And maybe the House of Yes. · I must say I do not think that that would edify the public particularly, you know. ~. ROBERTS: (inaudible). It certainly would solve (inauduble) problem

l~ay 24, 197 8 Tape No. 3468 ~~- J ::R. WELLS: But somebody said once that television will never be satisfactory until you can turn it off when a click that is heard in the studio. There is a lot to be said for that . I do not think our lives have been particularly bettered by a lot of tha TV tr.at we watch, You know,when I first saw TV, it was twenty-odd years ago in England and I went to a person's house and sat down and I thought we were going to watch one programme, •Jhatever it was, and t~en turn off the TV and discuss that as you would if you went to a movie or something.

But to my astonishment instead of that one programme was shown,and then the next programme followed and everybody sat there goggle- eyed ~ratching the TV until half past eleven or twelve o'clock at night, or whenever it was that I decided to go home. And I left with the distinct feeling of frustration that this surely was not the proper way to spend an evening, and if you wanted to watch something worthwhile watch it and then talk about it or think about it, or do what you like, but not this sitting down in front of the TV set all evening.

Later on in life, after I got back here and working and everything, I used to sit down and ••atch TV a good many evenings. But I must say, I am happy to say t~at I have stopped doing that. I quit it two or three years ago, Mr. Speaker, quit it cold. Because as far as I was concerned it was not particularly doing anything to help me or assist me in the business of life or my work or t•hatever aspect of representing people or anything else. It was just filling a void which I allowed to be filled. And since

May 24, 1978 Tape 3469 PK ~ 1 Mr. Wells: since then when I gave up watching on that sort of basis I found my disposable time to do anything of interest and worthwhile endeavour was increased, I suppose, three or fourfold, because your working life,whatever that happens to be,fills most of your day, you have got your sleeping time, and then you have got the evening; if you are going to spend the evening goggle-eyed in front of a T.V. set,God help you. And I for one have stooped doing it. So all I can say is I must say associate myself with remarks that the other speakers made with regard to canadian content.

I do believe that if some of these plays that emanate from the Mainland, and they are on T.V.,if you went to China and you happened to turn on a T.V. set you would recognize one of these plays instantly if they were on and immediately turn it off again because,honestly,a lot of them are just not worth watching. And we have a long way to go,I am afraid,in Canada before we can compete with either American T.V. or British T.V. Other countries I cann~t speak for, although I have seen the odd programme from other countries which was well worth watching. So you cannot legislate quality, Mr.

Speaker, and you cannot legislate performance or any of these things. That is where we have gone wronq in our society,! think,with our massive regulations and legislation about everything. You soon literally will not be able to turn around without having a book of regulations with you, Well the only trouble is the book would be so heavy you would not be able to carry it. So I regret that we can so ill compete in this country that we have got to legislate Canadian content. It is one of the sad things about this country. So at any rate, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition.

I hope that the people of the communities involved will get access to T.V., and I can only hope that they will be discriminating enough to turn it off when it is junk, which unfortunately so much of it is.

May 24, 1978 Tape 3469 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fish Inspection Act". 0 0 0 MR. DINN: No, no! MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, revert to Notices of Motions. The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Establish The Northeast Avalon Urban Region." ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer Affairs, Sir. Would the minister be so kind, Sir, as to inform the House what action the minister took on a statement in the Auditor General's report on page 38, the end of March 1977 Auditor General's Report where the Auditor General sai.d that - "In my opinion, on the basis of the best of the information available to me,no acceptable method for accurately recording and checking the number of scrap vehicles was actually in effect up to the 31st. of March , 1977.

However,despite the inadequate verification procedures, invoices relating to the period January 1976 to February 1977,totalling $143,866,were certified and paid." Would the minister inform the House, if he would be so kind, what action the minister took on that statement in the Auditor General's report? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I have the whole thing here in answer to it actually, and was hoping to table it. MR. NEARY: Will the minister table it now? MR. MURPHY: Yes.

Well I just have a few pencilled noted on it, but I will get it done up -

May 24, 1978 Tape 3469 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: That will be fine. MR. MURPHY: whole thing. - the question, that position, and it explains the If I may,while I am on my feet, Sir, we held four meetings,! believe,with the Auditor General,explained many things, and they seem to be satisfied with the explanation for what had happened over the four or five years since this programme was in.

But apparently there is still a note in, think, there is one paragraph, 63, I think,_~te control. have a question here, sowhat will do,I will get this in the proper form of an answer and I will table it on the next sitting day, if that is agreeable with the Opposition? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. MR. NEARY: I thank the han. the gentleman, Sir, for the information, and we look forward to having the document put on the Table. Will that be put on today, by the way, on the Table of the House today? MR. MURPHY: Tomorrow. MR. NEARY: Tomorrow. MR.

MURPHY: Well,! will put it up in Answer to Question form, the notice that the question was asked. MR. NEARY: Okay, Sir. Perhaps the minister, Sir, will be so kind as to tell the House,then,what is now going to happen to the car wrecks that are stockpiled down

Hay 24,1978 Tape No. 3470 AH-1 l1R. NEARY: here on the East Coast,I believe,and in Central Newfoundland and in the Western part of the Province ? Are they going to be left there for an indefinite period? What is the position now of the company vis-a-vis the car wrecks? Have they fulfilled their commitments? Are the car wrecks going to be shipped or are they going to be left on the sites where they are now in the Eastern part of the Province, in Central Newfoundland and Western Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR.HURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to that I think the hen. member is fully aware of what is happening because someone pretty close to himself is in a negotiating stage with what is happening at the present time. But I will just sa~ and I just had a note. the total number of cars collected was 20,889 as far as we could check in. The idea being that the final check would be when the cars were being checked out and it would be going by the manifesto of the people that were buying the cars, so we would have a double check one way or another, in other words in checking these cars in we tallied 20,d89.

I think sverybody is aware that the contract price was $27,50 per car delivered to the site, of which twenty-five per cent of that money was held back until the cars were actually shipped out of the Province. So what would happen of course if we collected 20,889 and paid for them at whatever the rate was,and when they were being shipped out we discovered that ~here was 800 or 1,000 short,that money would be charged back out of what re withheld, the twenty-five per cent. In other words,there is $6.88 for every car wreck that is stored in the Province,whether it is in Corner Brook or St.

John's or wherever,up to a total of about $150,000. So if there were mistakes made in checking them in,and I think in the early stages there could possibly have been,we would correct it when they were being shipped out because of the fact,again,that the shipper or the carrier would be checking these cars aboard•And what rate was charged, of course we would have t~e going out as against the coming in of the cars so there would not be any problem of overpayment at that time.

l1ay 24,1978 Tape No. 3470 Ali-2 HR. i1URPHY: As far as what is happening now,I understand that there are something like three or four companies now wanting to buy what scrap is at Octagon Pond.at Corner Brook 0 and at different other areas of the Province. I have had calls from different people as to the status of the $6.88 that is being held back,and my answer to them was that morally and legally when these cars were shipped out by the party_ concerned- not dealing with the government. We do not own them at all.

Sir; they are owned by another company. when the deal was made that we would have available to that company the $6.88 that was withheld, whichever company it was A, B, C, or D, I understand it was something like four negotiating,and I am very happy to say that I hope and feel quite confident that within the next week or so a deal will be made where we will at least get clear of the old cars collected.

We are about ready to launch a new system on which we have gathered facts from all across Canada , which way we will go on the collecting of what cars are scattered around the different areas, and I have thirty or fourty requests from different areas of the Province to collect these cars. And as I say I hope somethi:l.g will come out of this.

T~re is a holdback of $6.88 per car of what is in there and whatever company deals with either the company themselves - and I speak of Affiliated Hetal.or someone acting on their behalf have a perfect right when the deal is completed and these cars are shipped out to get this money that is in this trust fund. i'JR. NEARY: A supplementary. }JR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. NEARY: I have to say this. Mr. Speaker. I do not think the han gentleman really meant to mislead the House when the han. gentleman said that somebody close to me was negotiating for these car wrecks.

I am not my brother's keeper-and it is not my brother,by the way. MR. MURPRY: No, brother-in-law. MR, NEARY: I am not my brother's keeper and I know nothing about any negotiations for these car wrecks. MR. l1URPHY: I will take the gentleman's word for it, Sir.

Hay 24,1978 :HR. NEARY: Tape No. 34 70 AH-3 Well,the hon. gentleman can take lily word for it. HR. MURPHY: Very g-ood, then. HR. NEARY: So therefore, Sir, ! woUld not wan·t the hon. gentleman to leave that i111pression.in the House. When I speak in this House I speak f o.r !llyllelf • l1R .MURPHY: I certainly hope so, Sir. l1R. !lEARY: l'hat is right - and nobody else. I do not spe~ for Craig Dobbin, I do not speak for Mr. MU1laly,I speak for 111yself. '"IR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: HR. MIJRPHY: ~1R. NEARY: Right, Sir, We acknowledge that - rhat is right, Sir. ~ if . .John Doyle is not there it is Steve Neary.

Now then perhaps t .he hon. gentleman can enlighten me a little further seeing the hon. gentleman is so co-operative today, Sir. Would the hon. gentleman be so kind as to tell the House,if indeed I heard the hon. gentleman correctly, that the $103,000 tl1at w~s withheld , $6 something, $6.80 s0111ething - MR. HUBPHY: $6.88 per car. MR. NEARY: $6.88 per car, if the original intent;l.on of withholding this amount of money was to take care of any falsifying of invoices that .may have occured?Was that the intention of withholding the money?

May 24, 1978 Tape 3471 EC - 1 MR. MURPHY: No. MR. NEARY: Well, that is what the minister just - at least that is the impression I got from listening to the han. gentleman. me out on that now? ~'R. SPEAKER: Can the hon. gentleman straighten The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. HR. MURPHY: 1 falsified'. MR. NEARY: ~!R. MURPHY : I do not think I used the word No, I used them. - because I alleged no dishonesty to anybody, but there could have been a discrepancy in the checking in, you know, because they were coming from all over the Province.

All this was done in about a period of seven or eight months and the idea being that in the contract the full amount would not be paid until these wrecks had left the Province, not to be stored here, there or everywhere else. So that was the reason this was left there .

And the way the cars were collected, and first of all the Department of Highways were connected with the thing and then the Department of Environment came in, so between the whole works there was che checking that as minister when I took over I was not quite satisfied with checking the individual cars because there was a front end of a car here and a rear end there,rusted out and everything else. So then we went to a new system. If I have a minute or two I will explain this. We said then that every wreck coming in would be weighed - before they were proc~ssed th_at we would weigh them.

And the accepted weight for a wrecked vehicle is one ton. So we did weigh the last lot of cars that came in, the past two or three years since I became

May 24, 1978 Tape 3471 EC - 2 HR. MURPHY : Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment and since I became responsible for this car wreck programme. So I say when they are being shipped out - and I might add also that Cyclomec, which is the outfit that started in New Brunswick, that are shredding cars and whatnot there, they also accept one ton as a car when it is stripped down a! upholstery and that type of thing. So we certainly hope that when this deal comes to pass, which I hope it does, particularly for the han. member for Conception South (Mr.

Nolan) - I guess he is still getting complaints about Octagon and we feel very terrible about it- that when we have cleaned them up that there will be no one overpaid or,I hope~no one underpaid in the whole deal. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Sir, I thank the hen . gentleman for being so co-operative, Sir, and kind.

And I wonder if the hen. gentleman could now tell me and tell the House that if through errors, as the hen. gentleman put it, or mistakes which may have occurred in invoicing the government for the amounts more than actually the cars that were collected, invoicing the government for more money than they had actually collected in car wrecks, if that happens to go over $103,000, say it goes up, for argument sake, to ~200,000, how does the hon. gentleman then propose to get the difference between $103,000 say, and $200,0001 Now the hen. gentleman told us he has withheld $103,000.

Let us say, for instance, that after the weigh-out, after a company buys the car wrecks and they provide the minister with their manifesto, as the hen. gentleman saic, and it shows that they are $200,000 out in their calculations, mistakes and errors

May 24, 1978 Tape 3471 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: in invoicing, how will the minister then get the extra $97,000, if indeed there is that much due? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, in reply to that I might double the number; you know, I mean this is just a fairytale that there could possibl y be another $100 , 000 owed, And quite frankly, if there is a small discrepancy - and I think there may be, although we feel there may not be - we will look after the interests of the people concerned, whoever collected them, and if it is morally and legally due them then it is only right that we give it to them. But I will guarantee this House that there will not be a difference of 2 per cent or 1 per cent in the amount, not talking about the 100 per cent to which the bon. gentleman refers.

MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. gentleman for the additional information. I am wondering Sir, if the han. gentleman, who has been most co-operative today, would also tell the House if there are any commitments, any strings attached to this $103,000 that the minister and the government are withholding? Will that be paid out with strings attached?

In other words, does the company have access to it, once they fulfiJ their agreement will they have access to that $103,000 or are there strings attached that the government would make sure that the company has no outstanding debts, that all the creditors are paid in the Province before that $103,000 is released? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment.

May 24, 1978 Tape 3471 EC - 4 MR . MURPHY: Kr . Speaker, that is no concern of mine what the company owes or anything. My only dealing is with a contract that was made between government and a certain company and the monies that we held back, But I fo r got to mention that there is $103,000 payable less any monies owed government,and there is a small amount that is payable to government for the rent of the property in at Octagon, I think it is in the area of $10,000.

But outside that, whatever money the other company owes, as far as we are concerned it is not our concern, it is not my concern, I am not a liquidator, I am not anything else. All I am doing is trying to stra ighten up a mess that we are in to as far as

~'~ay 24, 1978 Tape 3472 MR. A. MURPHY: this is concerned because of the fact that the bo~tom went out of the steel market there was no demand for them,consequently this one hundred-odd thousand dollars or this twenty thousand­ and-odd cars have been piled up in different areas of the Province. And in fairness to the Proviuce and bo the Department of Environment and everything else we are hoping to clear it and I sincerely hope that in a short while we ~nll be able to do this. Dl-1 - 1 MR.. S. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. !.ffi.. SPEAKER: Final supplementary. MR. S. NEARY: ~r.

Speaker, I thought I understood the hon. gentleman correctly but I just want to repeat and just get the han. gen~leman to confirm or deny what I am saying,that the $103,000,apart from the government taking out of the $103,000 what it is owed for- ;I believe the Bon. gentleman referred to storage or land in by the Octagon - the land in by the Octagon 1 I presume that is what the hon. gentleman mentioned~ Can the hon. gentleman assure the House that the han. gentleman or no other minister in the government has written anybody in this Province- banks, finance companies, people who may be interested in purchasing these cars - if the hon. gentleman or none ·of his colleagues has written any of the people concerned,the banks who are owned money or anybody else,saying that this $103,0~0,if and when it is paid out to anybody who either buys "the contract . from Affiliated Marine Metals or fulfills the t.erms of the contract,can only receive this $103,00 provided that they pay all claims and all debts that are made against Affiliated !1arine ~1etals in the future?

Could the minister assure me and the House that this is not so 1that no letter has ever been written to any bank or anybody else? ·MR. MURPHY:· Does the hon. gentleman get my question? What is that?

May 24, 1978 Tape 3472 'MR.. S • NEARY : That the hon. gentleman has not writ~en a letter to anybody saying that apart from what the government is going to take out itself 1 that the minister has not told a bank or told anybody that 1f the $103,000• for instance,is paid over to the Bank of Nova Scotia, that they have to make sure - MR. MURPHY~ Would you leave out the name because I do not thinkthe bank, or- XR. S. NEARY: Dominion MR. MURPHY: HR.

S • NEARY : - or the Royal Bank or the Toronto - any bank. - or any bank,but we will use the ))!; - 2 Bank of Nova Scotia for an .example, that the minister has not written, for instance,the Bank of Nova Scotia saying that if the $103,0n0 is paid over to the bank or paid over to a company,that they have to make sure that all the debts of Affiliated Marine ~etals are paid, the minister has not given any guarantee of that at any time~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Yanister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MR.

MURPHY: No,we have not given any guarantee to anybody,only that the people acting on behalf of this company have assured by us that as far as we are conceraed if there is a commitment to any bank,and this bank claims and proves that they are owed, we have no other objection and we will not be held responsible for any other debts outside this. MR. SPEAKER: Hermitage. MR. WINSOR: The han. member for Fortune - Mr. Speaker, 11!)1 question is directed to the ~linister of Fisheries.

In view of the tremendous storm damage that was done l1onday and Tuesday, would the minister tell t~e House if he has been able to assess the amount of damage caused to lobster pots and associated equipment in Fortune Bay and Hermitage Bay?

"' !fay 24, 19 78 MR. SPEAKER: ~fit. W. CARTER: Tape 3472 w- 3 The han. lti.nister of Fisheries. Ur. Speaker, I am aware of the fact that damage1 considerable damage did occur both in the district represented by my han. friend and the Port au Port Penninsula as well. This marning I asked the field people in our department to visit the affected areas and to give me a report on the extent of the damage. ~. SPEAKER: llR. J. WI NSOR: A supplementary.

I wonder would the minister te!l us in view of the fact that the lobster fishery has come to a complete halt~or almost a complete halt in this area 1and I am sure in my han. friend's area in Port au Port, with a great loss of income to the fishermen,is there any possibility of assistance in any form,in materials or grant of any kind to get them back to work? I think the fishermen would accept even a truck load of laths;bows you cannot cut now,they tell me 1 because the rwigs are not right,they will crack or something. Maybe there is a plastic substitute that could be supplied. These fishermen are out of business.

They are going to lose a tremendous amount of income. T-7oulc! the minister enli ghten us on all that? MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. CARTE?.: The han. minister of Fisheries. !!r. Speaker, I would not want to give any commitment today on w~at assistance,if any in f act, we will -be giving the fishermen who suffer losses certainly not until the extent of the losses have been assessed. But I think the hon. member opposite realizes that there is no ongoing assistance program as such.There is no insurance program on lobster gear or in fact any other type fishing gear fmr that matter. But once we have the reports that I have

~~ay 24, 19 7fl T<!pe No. 34 73 :m - 1 MR. W. CARTER: asked for with respect to the extent of the losses, then I a~ certainly willing to take a look at it and anything we can do, within the regulations, then we will do it to assist. But I cannot, at this time, give any }~nd of an undertaking that will initiate a gear replacement programme or any kind of an assistance programme to assist the lobster fishermen at this point in time. MR. SP~..KER: !1!1. J. HI~SOR: A supplementary, the original questioner. In light of that st:~tement, I would like to point out as a

preamble to this, the peoole on the Southwest Coast I do not think they have ever, ever had any assistance for any damage done by storms of that nature. And I think other parts of the Island have had and I Hculd ask the minister if he would give his very best efforts in trying to get some kind of assistance, as I mentioned before, either in kind or a grant of some kind. Would the minister indicate to the House that he will move move and earth to get something done2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. }tlnister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I can certainly tell the House that we vill do all we can to assist.

I do not know yet just to what extent IJe can or will assist. Certainly I think this points out the need for some kind of an insurance programme, as I have said before on a number of occasions, and it points out, !1r. Speaker, the unfortunate fact that the programme that was int~ded, a