Manitoba Hansard — 16 August 1983 (Sitting 151, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-151

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 151 - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 16 AUGUST, 1983. Pnnted by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituency Party ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) Ste. Rose NOP ANSTETT, Andy Springfield NDP ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BANMAN, Robert (Bob) La Verendrye PC BLAKE, David R. (Dave) Minnedosa PC BROWN, Arnold Rhineland PC BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. Gimli NDP CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. Brandon West IND CORRIN, Brian Ellice NOP COWAN, Hon. Jay Churchill NOP DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent St. Boniface NOP DODICK, Doreen Riel NOP DOERN, Russell Elmwood NOP DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth Kildonan NOP DOWNEY, James E.

Arthur PC DRIEDGER, Albert Emerson PC ENNS, Harry Lakeside PC EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. Brandon East NOP EYLER, Phil River East NOP FILMON, Gary Tuxedo PC FOX, Peter Concordia NOP GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) Swan River PC GRAHAM, Harry Virden PC • HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park PC HARAPIAK, Harry M. The Pas NOP HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NOP HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen Logan NOP HYDE, Lloyd Portage la Prairie PC JOHNSTON, J. Frank Sturgeon Creek PC KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene Seven Oaks NDP KOVNATS, Abe Niakwa PC LECUYER, Gerard Radisson NOP ,. LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling Charleswood PC MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al St.

James NOP MALINOWSKI, Donald M. St Johns NOP MANNESS, Clayton Morris PC McKENZIE, J. Wally Roblin-Russell PC MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) St. Norbert PC NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) Assiniboia PC OLESON, Charlotte Gladstone PC ORCHARD, Donald Pembina PC PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. Selkirk NDP PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson Transcona NOP PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland Fort Rouge NOP PHILLIPS, Myrna A. Wolseley NOP PLOHMAN, Hon. John Dauphin NDP RANSOM, A. Brian Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Burrows NDP SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic Ross mere NDP SCOTT, Don lnkster NOP SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) Fort Garry PC SMITH, lion.

Muriel Osborne NOP STEEN, Warren River Heights PC STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. Flin Flon NDP URUSKI, Hon. Bill Interlake NDP USKIW, Hon. Samuel Lac du Bonnet NOP WALDING, Hon. D. James St Vital NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 16 August, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Tenth Report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your committee met on Tuesday, August 16, 1983, and heard a representation with respect to Bill No. 48, The Elections Finances Act;

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales, from Messrs. Jim Wright and Wayne Pollen of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. Your committee has considered: Bill No. 14 -An Act to amend The Elections Act; Loi modifant la loi electorale, And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 48 -The Elections Finances Act;

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorales, Bill No. 112 -The Statute Law Amendment Act 1(1983), And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments, on division. Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 7 4 -An Act to amend The Elections Act (2); Loi modifiant la Joi electorale (2), And has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for The Pas, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present the Annual Report of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba for the fiscal year '82-83. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Abortion clinic - Dr. Morgentaler MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health.

I would ask him whether he can confirm reports that the Morgentaler Clinic on Corydon Avenue is going to be re-opened to the public as a family health centre, and that medical fees, professional practitioner fees generated at the centre will be paid for by the taxpayer through the Manitoba Health Services Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have seen the same write-up in the Free Press as my honourable friends saw, I'm sure. There was a statement there that the people in the clinic thought it was quite humorous, because the government might have to pay.

I don't think it's humorous at all. I might say that the decision not to cover any abortion at the clinic still stands. Now, if there is a private family health clinic centre, there is nothing that we can or want to about that. We're not going to discriminate. If it's properly serviced, that is, presently being insured, well, then we will follow the usual procedure that we would anywhere else. They would be on fee-for-service. What they do with their pay, that would be up to the individual. They can do what they want with it. MR. L. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, so that all insured services currently covered under the spectrum of insured services under the MHSC will quite legitimately be paid for, funded by the taxpayer through the MHSC, but nothing that is not in that spectrum of insured services has been approved by the government. Is that correct? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is absolutely correct. We are treating this the same as we would any other clinic. As I say, we've already stated that the abortions are not covered in that clinic. MR. L. SHERMAN: A further supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, -and this may appear to be obvious, but for the record I'd like to ask it anyway -then may the House infer from the Minister's comments that he has not, as Minister of Health, designated the Morgentaler Clinic as a therapeutic abortion facility? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Definitely not, Mr. Speaker. Bill No. 3 - opposition MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister. of Agriculture. In light of the 5304

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 fact, Mr. Speaker, that the majority of Manitoba farm representations made to the Committee on Agriculture last night is in opposition to Bill 3, is. he proposing major amendments or, in fact, withdrawing that legislation from this Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that while there have been briefs in opposition to certain parts of the bill, there was, with the exception of . . . HON. R. PENNER: On a point of order, ii I may, Mr. Speaker. I'm a little concerned here. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: It seems to me there is a clear and definite rule that when a matter is still before committee it may not be the subject of questions during question period. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I am informed that the committee has not yet made its report to the House, and members should be aware that proceedings before a committee are not proper to ask questions about in the House. The Honourable Member tor Arthur. MR. H. ENNS: Saved by the bell again, Billie. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Agriculture needs all the protection he can get from the farm community. Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Agriculture fully aware of the massive opposition to Bill 3 that he's trying to force on the people of Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should have been awake during the presentations yesterday, and he would have realized what he is saying is not entirely as is presented. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the massive opposition to the direction that this Minister of Agriculture is going in the imposition of farm ownership law on the people of Manitoba, will he withdraw Bill 3? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I review my point of order. No matter how it's disguised, in this case not so cleverly disguised, it still trenches on the rule which is there for a very good purpose. MR. J. DOWNEY: Then I'll ask the question of the First Minister.

In view of the opposition to the Minister of Agriculture's policies and legislation that he has introduced into this Legislative Assembly, which he is imposing on the people of Manitoba, will he withdraw or change his Minister of Agriculture so the people of the farm community and all Manitobans don't have to put up with the kind of heavy-handed legislation that this Minister of Agriculture is imposing? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, I think that the Honourable Minister of Agriculture of this government is probably the b�st Minister of Agriculture, with the possible exception of the Minister responsible for Transportation, that this province has ever had. So, Mr. Speaker, I see no need, no call tor any change in the responsibilities of the Minister of Agriculture. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, again to the First Minis ter, would he recommend to his Minister of Agriculture then that he do a major study of the impact of ownership of land or non-resident foreign ownership of land on the farm community before he allows his Minister of Agriculture to force this kind of legislation on the people of Manitoba? Will he have a study done, as has been recommended by certain groups representing the agricultural community? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, the Minister of Agriculture has been involved insofar as many studies and analyses pertaining to the need for this legislation, its impact insofar as land ownership is concerned, its impact really on the farm population in the Province of Manitoba. I don't know what a further and new study or analysis would do, but to delay this which is important and essential legislation to the Manitoba agricultural community. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister, who did those studies that he's referred to? When were they done?

Could this Legislative Assembly have copies of those studies that the First Minister refers to, dealing with the ownership of land in Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture has had a number of analyses that have been done.

They are internal to the Minister of Agriculture but, needless to say, the Minister of Agriculture would not proceed with legislation of this nature without assuring its feasibility, its acceptability insofar as the Manitoba agricultural community is concerned; and also if I could add, to evaluate the success of that legislation in other provincial jurisdictions in Canada, such as Prince Edward Island, such as Quebec, such as our neighbouring Province of Saskatchewan where legislation of a similar nature has worked well in practice.

I would encourage the honourable member to evaluate the success of that legislation in other jurisdictions in the provinces. I know, for example, the Premier of the Province of Prince Edward Island, who is, by the way, a friend to honourable members across the way politically, has spoken to me very very strongly about the benefits of such legislation insofar as his provincial jurisdiction is concerned. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I challenge the First Minister to name the studies, and to table those studies that he refers to that backs up the legislation that he is imposing upon the people of Manitoba.

Name the 5305 • )I

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 studies and tell this Legislative Assembly when they were done. That's the question, Mr. Speaker. What are the studies? Who did them, and when were they done? Table them. Bacterial counts - Lake Winnipeg beaches MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question, in the absence of the Minister of Environment, is for the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that fecal coliform and E. coli bacterial counts at many Lake Winnipeg beaches apparently exceed the levels that are set for Ontario, and in a number of cases even exceed Manitoba standards, what does the Minister plan to do to rectify this situation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have discussed this situation with the Minister of the Environment and the Acting Minister, as well as staff from my department and staff from the Environment Department.

The best information that I have is, yes, they were aware of the testing conducted by the Winnipeg Free Press, but the Free Press refused to give any details as of yesterday. This is being monitored now. Usually the feeling is that test was not done, conducted by experts, or in a scientific way. I am assured that there's no imminent danger at this time. The testing is being done and monitored by the Department of the Environment. The Department of Health would be involved once they get the test in the lab. Usually five tests are conducted over a period of 30 days.

I have requested it, and the five tests will be carried on in successive days. So whenever there is any change, I'll be pleased to inform the members of the House. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that a petition and letters were sent during the past year to the Minister of the Environment -I'm aware of it, because of having received a copy -indicating concern for the bacteriological counts at one on the west side of Lake Winnipeg beaches, why was this not being monitored more regularly? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, whenever there are concerns or complaints, tests are immediately being conducted. For instance, there has been testing at Spruce Sands, because of the concern for the last few months. They are keeping quite a close tab on it, and they make their recommendations. As I say, the Department of Health is aware of it when the test samples reach the lab. I am ensured again, I have been in touch with the inspector and the staff, and they assure me that things are under control. They are monitoring it; they don't monitor everything on every lake. The cost would be prohibitive.

There have to be some concerns or some complaints, and I'm assured that this is being done. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there are sewage lagoons that are dumping treated sewage effluent into Lake Winnipeg on the west side of the river at Gimli and, I believe, at Winnipeg Beach, and there are other septic units that are discharging into the lake farther north of those locations, is the Minister's department aware of what the effects of that are? Is that the source of the high fecal coliform count? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, even the survey of the Winnipeg Free Press seemed to indicate that there is no real concern in Gimli. All I can repeat is, whenever there is a concern from the department or brought to the attention of the Environmental Department or complaints, this is tested immediately. It's selective testing; there has to be a reason. They are not a routine on all the lakes and all the beaches in Manitoba. I'm told that the cost would be prohibitive.

Now, I've wanted to make sure that in the meantime should we take action on these beaches, and I have been assured repeatedly by not only one, but a number of experts including members of my staff, or medical doctors are saying that things are under control. They will keep on monitoring. If there is any change, they will let me know immediately. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister, has there been any indication of unusual incidence of stomach illness or intestinal diseases that have been reported during the course of the summer by doctors in Manitoba that could be traced to this high fecal coliform count?

HON. L. DESJARDINS: To my knowledge, no case has been brought to the attention of our department. North of Portage - development MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. Some time ago, the government allocated $20 million from the Jobs Fund to the North Portage Project. Can the Minister inform the House how much of that $20 million has now been re-allocated to other projects? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the member asked me if the total budgetary monies had been allocated, and I said, yes, indeed they had and indeed an amount in excess. The amount that had been approved by way of budgetary was $82 million, which includes the $10 million allocation from the Manitoba Government Employees Association settlement. There has been a total project approval to date, Mr. Speaker, of $118 million, so that there is in excess of the $82 million allocation that has been announced. This, Mr.

Speak er, will ensure that we not fall unreasonably short insofar as the cash flow is concerned during the present current year because, as honourable members know, when a construction project is announced, there is a cash flow and some of that cash flow might not take place until the '83-84 fiscal year. So there has been more than $82 million that has been announced in respect to budgetary; $118 million. Of 5306

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 that $118 million, there is a little less than $9 million yet to be announced. Insofar as non-budgetary capital amounts, there has been a total of some $117 million. Of that, approximately 24.5 million is under considera tion. Insofar as employment impact work weeks, we are looking at a total insofar as projects are concerned, both budgetary and non-budgetary capital projects, of some 378, 174 work weeks. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Minister was: how much of the $20 million originally allocated for the North of Portage Project has now been allocated to other projects? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spe aker, I thought I had answered the honourable member in indicating that there have been $82 million allocated. Re budgetary, there have been announcements of $118.28 million. Within that $118 million is $20 million insofar as the Portage North Program is concerned. That money may flow or m11y not flow during this fiscal year.

It depends upon the level of support given by the three levels of government to the task force report as to whether that amount will flow, whether a substantial portion of it flow, or none of it will flow during the present fiscal year prior to March 31st of 1984. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, has any of the $20 million allocated for the North of Portage project been re-allocated to such projects as highway construction or municipal works? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated that the $20 million re North Portage was part of the $82 million allocation. A total of $118 million has been approved. So, yes, insofar as budgetary approval is concerned, there has been an amount in excess of budgetary approval which included the Portage North development that has been allocated to other projects. Jobs Fund - applications MR. B. RANSOM: A further supplementary to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, have all applications for projects under the Jobs Fund on the budgetary side been put on hold? Has that side of the Jobs Fund been frozen? HON. H.

PAWLEY: As I indicated, there are approximately a little under $9 million of projects that have yet to be announced, and the development of a program that will specifically be dealing with winter works projects. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry to have to belabour this point with the First Minister, but he doesn't seem to understand the question . I'll rephrase it. Is the government still accepting applications for projects under the Jobs Fund, where the funds must come from the budgetary side of the fund? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Yes, certainly that will be the case in respect to some of the programs, including the 5307 Municipal and Community Works Project which was announced but several weeks ago. There will be applications that will be received under that program. That could very well be the case in respect to some of the other programs as well. "On Patrol" - magazine MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Attorney-General.

Local magistrates in my constituency and others are concerned about the magazine, "On Patrol," the quarterly Manitoba Police Commission report. The last issue for the summer has apparently gone out, and they have been notified that "On Patrol" has been cancelled. I wonder, could the Attorney-General advise the House and the rural magistrates why it was cancelled. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The decision to stop publication of "On Patrol" was part of the re-allocation of budgetary funds on a priority basis.

We had a rather expensive magazine going to a very limited number of people on very limited issues, and it was regretfully decided that we could no longer justify the continued publication of that magazine. Wh at we have done indeed, as part of the repriorization, is that the person who, as an employee of the Manitoba Police Commission, had that as his primary responsibility is now being given wider and better responsibilities in the department to look after the communication needs of the department as a whole. That occurred indeed before the end of the last fiscal year.

It's our hope that in looking at our priorities with respect, for example, to making known changes in family legislation, to making known changes in the court structure and the Unified Family Court, that we will continue to be able to publish material of interest in the law enforcement field. Much of the emphasis is now moving over to crime prevention and to the Crime Prevention Committee.

So it is a genuine repriorization, but the person who was publishing that magazine continues in the department and will continue to put out information of interest to magistrates and law enforcement officers but in a different, less expensive way. MR. W. McKENZIE: Can I ask the Attorney-General then if the funds that were formerly allocated to "On Patrol" now have been moved over into the propaganda machine in the Premier's office, so now the magistrates and these people in the Law Commission in the province, who over the years have gained factual information, now will get propaganda out of the Premier's office?

HON. R. PENNER: You know, it's always a source of surprise to me - I don't know why it should -that when a question is asked and an answer given, the answer is not listened to. It becomes clear that the asking of

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 the question was an exercise in politicking, rather than a request for information. I said, specifically, that the money that was allocated to this program continues in the department on a repriorized basis. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Provincial logo MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I regret very much, the Attorney-General's been here now a little while. He still doesn't recognize this is a political arena, and this is where politics are played in this province. Can I ask him another question?

What's happened to the provincial logo? Is that now government policy? HON. R. PENNER: Of course, the question of the provincial logo is not in the sphere of my responsibility. But no doubt, politics are played by some, but I don't see politics as a game of the kind indicated by the Member for Roblin-Russell. I see it as a serious exercise in responsibility. Bacterial counts - lake Winnipeg beaches MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism.

My colleague from Tuxedo had brought this subject up to the Minister of Health. I would like to ask the Minister of Tourism, if she is concerned about the coliform count in Lake Winnipeg on three of the finest beaches that there are in Manitoba or Western Canada, as to what effect it may have on tourism in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker , of course, I am concerned and will be in regular communication with the Minister of Health to determine whether or not the facts are accurate.

I presume that the longer-term solution does lie in better sewage control and treatment in this area of the province. I, for one, would like to see some longer term planning on that end of the problem. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Member for Tuxedo indicated there had been correspondence to the Minister of Environment or to the government regarding this problem several months ago.

Can I ask the Minister of Tourism, were there any meetings held at that time which would be liaisons between the Departments of Environment, Health, and Tourism to discuss the problem at that time, before it got to the point where it would have an effect on tourism? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall receiving such a letter, but the general question of water quality is one that I've been concerned about, and I know our caucus is concerned. As I say, the water quality in Lake Manitoba and in the Red River have been problems that have been building over time.

I'm sure the previous government was very much aware of them. I think it's time that we all recognize that maintaining a good quality of water is a top priority for the province. I feel certain that the water planning sewage treatment priority will be given very close attention in the upcoming budget process. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, as Acting Minister of the Environment, I have met with environment staff on this question.

Further to the Minister of Economic Development's comments, the last testing of Lake Winnipeg in 1982 indicated coliform counts of less than 100, and that the alleged results from the Free Press do not indicate an overall problem. But clearly environmental staff are doing some resampling, making sure that the sampling is scientific. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. STORIE: When some conclusive results are available, I'm sure that all members will want to be informed of their results, but until such time I wouldn't want to sensationalize this particular problem. A MEMBER: Propaganda.

Jobs Fund - applications MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, under the new Municipal and Community Program within the Jobs Fund, could he indicate when the closing date will be for the receiving of applications under that program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, the closing date is set at September 30th. MR. C. MANNESS: Will any determination be made before that date as to specific projects which may have applied at this time? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, information will be mailed out this weekend to all municipal corporations. That information will be available this weekend: the guidelines, the projects and the eligibility of those applications. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether or not there are on file right now applications, because it's my understanding that some municipalities had previously made requests to the Jobs Fund for some specific projects. Are there, at this time, on file applications? 5308

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 HON. A. ADAM: I believe there have been some applications that have come forward in the form of letters and that type of inqu iry, but not formal applications as yet, because the applications forms haven't been mailed out yet. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. ADAM: In response to the smart alecks on the other side, I have just announced that we are sending out the guidelines and, along with the guidelines and the parameters of the program, applications forms will also be included with the guidelines at that time.

So the smart-aleck comments and the laughs and the scoffing and all the other buffoonery that we get from the other side is unwarranted, Mr. Speaker. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister then whether it would be feasible for any municipality or town to apply, for instance, for a sewer and water project for fall of '83, given that a determination, a decision won't be made until I believe it is late September and whether indeed projects of that nature could occur this fall? HON. A. ADAM: The applications -certainly that is one of the programs under this Municipal Community Asset Program.

Water and sewer will be considered under this program. Whether they can proceed this fall or not, that's another question, but certainly that is one of the things that municipalities may wish to apply for. Headingley Jail - interview of inmate MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Corrections. Media reports of an alleged beating of an inmate at Headingley Jail by two prison guards: "The Commissioner of Corrections, Mr. Schneider," Mr.

Speaker, "is saying the matter is still under review." I would ask the Minister whether he can confirm such an incident. And who is reviewing it? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. L. EVANS: I certainly can confirm the incident. It was reported to me by senior correction staff, and it is indeed very unfortunate. Disciplinary action has been taken. Nevertheless, it is being reviewed in the general context. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can advise the House as to who is conducting the review.

There are now, I would say by at least approximate count, Sir, without exaggerating, about six different reviews going on apparently, ostensibly into all the difficulties and problems at Headingley Jail. Who is conducting this one? 5309 HON. l. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, there is an officer in the department in the Corrections Branch who has done the specific study. The information we have is fairly complete, although the MGEA has made certain criticisms of it, as you know and as has been reported. So the matter has been dealt with, I think, properly.

However, senior staff are prepared to review the matter and look at it in greater context. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can we assume that the correctional officers who were named in this particular incident, or alleged to have been involved in it, are being interviewed on the subject and inmates are being interviewed on the subject, or is this just paper shuffling in the commissioner's office? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, all the responsible parties involved were interviewed by the appropriate person.

Interviews were conducted at some length for some period of time, and as much information was collected as possible. The information confirmed that the incident occurred, and disciplinary action was taken. Jobs Fund m allocation of funds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. We have been asking the government for weeks now for an update related to the Jobs Fund allocations and cash flow. This morning the First Minister quoted from some material that he had with him.

Is he in a position now to table the information we've been asking for, for the last two weeks? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I'll obtain copies for the honourable members. Autopac - fraudulent claims MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Autopac. Firstly, can he confirm that there has been a very substantial increase in the number of fraudulent claims that Autopac has experienced lately? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, there certainly have been.

That was reported in the paper yesterday; it's fairly substantial. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister put any dollar figure on the extent of the problem at this particular time? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I don't have the figures offhand, but again the newspaper

article was essentially correct. That is public information at this time. Certainly I don't ... ,.

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister, I know is aware, as I am aware, that Autopac has a relatively small investigative unit. I think in total staff, it's very small. It is a unit that from time to time has been under some criticism for the manner and the way in which they have attempted to carry out their responsibility in reducing the number of fraudulent claims.

My question to the Honourable Minister is: what, if anything, is he doing to support the investigative unit in Autopac to reduce the number of fraudulent claims which, of course, all of us motorists will have to pay for? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: First of all, the member is quite correct. It is a small unit; it is a highly efficient unit. In terms of complaints from the general public, I can recall perhaps only one or two complaints I have had about the manner in which SIU was carrying out its responsibilities.

Certainly if MPIC feels that they are being overloaded or having such a workload they cannot carry out their work efficiently, then they will take a look at obtaining additional resources. MR. H. ENNS: I don't want to be mistaken. I have a lot of respect for the SIU. Other people have feared other organizations like the KPU and NKVD, but I think it is a serious matter. The insurance buying public, of course, is going to have to pick up the tab for the fraudulent claims that are being charged to Autopac.

I would ask the Minister to undertake to confirm to this House that he will personally ask senior management at Autopac to, if need be, beef up the investigative unit at Autopac. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I wish to assure the Member for Lakeside that I am in virtually daily contact with the General Manager of M PIC; that we have an extremely good line of communication; and that, if it should be a concern, he would bring it to my attention. It has not been mentioned to me as a matter of concern to the general manager. Brandon University Music Building MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minister in his capacity as head of the Jobs Fund. Can the First Minister advise the House what size of building, in terms of the dollar value, is being considered now for the Brandon University School of Music? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, that's a matter that the Minister of Education is presently looking at.

Insofar as the request that has been made from Brandon re the $6 million that has been proposed, the Minister of Education is of the view, which I share, that the amount of the request is too high considering the facility that ought to be constructed. It is being reviewed insofar as approval to a project, but approval to a project which will be somewhat more in line with the realistic needs that the province can provide for. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, during the election of 1981, when the Brandon University was considering a $6 million School of Music Building, it wasn't considered to be too high by the NOP when they were making their promises. What has happened since that time to bring the First Minister to the conclusion that $6 million is now too costly a figure? HON. H. PAWLEY: No. 1, I think the honourable members bears to be corrected insofar as the consideration of a $6 million project in 1981. There was consideration being given to a music building, but not to a $6 million project.

The consideration was being given to much larger raising of funds from the voluntary community than indeed has been the case to the present time. The Province of Manitoba is prepared to live up to its obligations, live up to its commitments, and we are prepared to put money on the table in respect to the living up to those commitments. But in return, Mr.

Speaker, there is the responsibility that the building be realistic and be within the means that are available in order to serve the need, not beyond that; and secondly, that the voluntary community, from which there was to be sizable sums of monies raised, indeed do raise the funds and couple those funds with provincial funds. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS Of THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have some committee changes that I'd like to indicate.

Municipal Affairs for tonight: Gourlay for Mercier, and Manness for Banman. Statutory Regulations and Orders for 8:00 p.m. tonight: Sherman for Banman. Industrial Relations for 10:00 a.m. tomorrow: Mercier for Filmon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a committee change on Municipal Affairs. The Member for lnkster will substitute for the Member for Fort Rouge. Industrial Relations: Flin Flan for Radisson. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. BUSINESS Of THE HOUSE HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, following adjournment this afternoon, which I expect will be rather early, it's 5310

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 the intention to have the Standing Committee on Agriculture meet to continu e hearing public representations, and the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations to meet to proceed to clause-by clause consideration of Bill 77. I have discussed that matter with the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Speaker, would you please call the adjourned debate on the Constitutional Amendment re: Official Languages, standing in the name of the Member for The Pas. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON MOTION CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT RE: OFFICIAL LANGUAGES MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General -order please -the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned debate on the amendment for the First Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, on the 20th of May of this year, the Government of Manitoba announced its intention to introduce resolutions into this House dealin g with the Constituti on. The first of those resolutions was one that dealt with aboriginal rights.

It came to this House following unanimous agreement that had taken place at a First Ministers' Conference, held in Ottawa in March of this year. The other resolution, of course, was that which dealt with language rights in the Province of Manitoba.

It outlined the desire of the Government of Manitoba to ensure the validity of Manitoba's laws, which were passed in one language only; reduces our obligation, that agreement, to translate statutes from 4,500, approximately, to some 500 statutes; and provided for a reasonable period of time -in fact some 10 years - in order to provide for the translation of those approximately 500 statutes. It also required the province, and only the Province of Manitoba and the government, to provide for some basic services in both French and English under certain limited and certain defined circumstances.

The language rights resolution was presented in the firm belief that those proposals were eminently reasonable, and would reflect a willingness on the part of all Manitobans to carefully and to fairly address our historical and our other responsibilities to Canada's founding peoples. We have a responsibility to ensure that our Constitution not only reflects our history, but also the current needs of all Manitobans. In Manitoba, in 1870, our province was created. French and English were then recognized as being equally important. While today, a very much smaller ratio of the French�speaking people live here.

In Canada, fully one-quarter of our fellow Canadians use French as their mother tongue. These responsibilities should not and cannot be taken lightly by any of us. Amending the Constitution requires all of us to deliberate carefully over the very fundamental principles upon which we have built our nation, built 5311 our province. Our country's experience in repatriating and amending the Constitution demonstrated very clearly both the sensitivities and the difficulties that are involved in such a task.

Despite the problems, I believe that the vast majority of Canadians now see it as an important unifying force upon which we can build an even stronger and closely-knit Confederation. But the patriation of the Constitution has not nor was it ever intended to be seen as an end product in itself, something which was forever etched in stone. The building of a nation, the shaping of a Constitution must be an ongoing process. It is the fundamental principle which guides our nation to be truly and to be reflective of our history, the emerging realities of a continually progressive nation.

Our Constitution must be a living tree which serves all our people. Our beloved Manitoba has become a cultural mosaic, blessed by dozens of ethnic groups which, like a garden of many flowers, holds greater beauty and greater charm and, like an international family in miniature, provides that all mankind can live in peace and in harmony, and can be strengthened and not weakened by our diversity. We have an obligation to look at the question of French language rights in a sympathetic way, yet a realistic way, a way that is reasonable and is sensible.

To deny this fundamental point would be a denial of our history, our heritage and our reality as a country. Doing this would be as erroneous as refusing to see Canada as a partnership of peoples from all parts of the world. It would be refusing to recognize that we're a nation of two languages, but blessed with the richness of many cultures.

This government realizes that Manitoba is defined as much by its present circumstances as it has been by its past, and that is why we have presented to this House a resolution dealing with Language Services which we and, I believe, most Manitobans see as practical and as just and as a fair accommodation, which fulfills our constitutional obligation to the French speaking peoples without imposing any obligation on the rest of Manitobans. We firmly believe that it is a made-in-Manitoba solution to a matter which is too often wrought with emotion, with animosity.

But let me assure Manitobans, we are sensitive to and we are listening to opinions, to concerns that are being expressed. If there seems to be some urgency to our commitment to proceed with this constitutional proposal, it is because we see it as an opportunity to resolve finally this outstanding matter through the legislative process; to find a political solution to a historic problem. Our concern is, if we are unable to resolve this issue positively, the initiative will be lost.

It will then be the Supreme Court of Canada that will impose a solution upon us, which may result in a settlement which far exceeds anything which any of us had contemplated or indeed desires. A MEMBER: That's fiction. HON. H. PAWLEY: We sincerely believe that whether that is in the best interests of Manitobans, nor is it something that they truly desire that an imposition be made of a resolution upon us, but rather that we make our own resolution, that we develop our own resolution in Manitoba.

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 We know that there is support from many quarters, including support from the ethnic communities. If I may quote a recent news story, "In a multicultural society, sensitivity to the rights of two official groups helps create an atmosphere that promotes the rights of all minorities," says Israel Ludwig, Chairman of the Joint Community Relations Community of the Jewish Community Council of Winnipeg. It has come out in favour of the government's proposals.

Myron Spolsky, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Community Development, says, "When somebody in the community asks what French language has to do with Ukrainian rights, I simply remind them that the same provincial law that closed down French schools in Manitoba in 1916 also closed down 118 Ukrainian schools." From Alliance Quebec, the organization fighting to maintain Anglophone rights in Quebec, we have the following, "Having pledged to work towards ensuring that English-speaking and French-speaking Canadians are at home all across this country. We are first-class citizens, regardless of where we live.

Alliance Quebec must support the initiative put forward by the Government of Manitoba, and must decline to be involved in any vicious circle of quid pro quo bargaining over the rights of Canadian citizens." Pushpa Chandra, President of the National Association of Canadians of Origins in India, adds, and I quote, "This letter to you is to express the unqualified support of the East Indian community for the consitutional amendment proposal to entrench French language rights.

We want your government to be aware of our belief that the protection of minority rights, especially that of language, is fundamental for the cultural growth of the ethnic communities, and the only way an institution like democracy can survive, can thrive." Support has also been expressed by leadership in the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Portugese Association of Manitoba, the Italian-Canadian League, the Mennonite Heritage Centre, the Vietnamese in Central Canada, the Parents for German Education.

We believe that these positions are shared by many people throughout this province, and indeed from right across Canada. Manitoba, right from the very beginning, has experienced a unique cultural heritage. So that when Manitoba became a province shortly after Confederation, it was only natural for Manitoba to do so on the same bilingual basis as had those provinces which first entered Confederation. The Manitoba Act, the contract upon which we entered Confederation, very clearly reflects the fact that French and English were to be of equal standing in the courts, the laws, in the Legislature.

There have been times however, since 1870, that have seen this province lose sight of its beginnings. The Official Language Act of 1890 is one such instance. The Manitoba school crisis of 1916 was another such instance. It resulted from a considerable amount of intolerance that ravaged public opinion during the World War. That was indeed another example. These two crossroads of history gravely damaged Manitoba's cultural mosaic. The changes that were made to educational legislation in 1916 created many bitter feelings amongst the ethnic minorities in Manitoba.

Ukrainian Canadians had over 100 of their schools taken away. Mennonites protested in vain to retain the rights that were guaranteed to them when they arrived in Manitoba in 1874. These protests fell on deaf ears and resulted in many Mennonite leadership being jailed, and saw the eventual emigration of some 3,000 Mennonites from Manitoba that at one time we, as a province, had welcomed them. Our past clearly demonstrates, therefore, that the denial of rights to French-speaking Canadians and French-speaking Manitobans was a denial of rights to other minorities.

The Supreme Court ruling of 1979, which overturned the 1890 Official Languages Act, restored the basic social contract upon which this province was founded. The recent Bilodeau court case brings the issue back again to the attention of Manitobans. I believe that unless we, as legislators, do what we can to resolve this question, Manitoba will be faced with a future filled with an endless series of court challenges, one by one, concerning the validity of our statutes.

We must continue to find through co-operation better alternatives and better solutions, rather than continuing the denial of minority rights which, one way or another, has plagued our province for far too long, Mr. Speaker. So we must turn our sights to the future and to celebrating, to promoting our rich multicultural experience. We, as legislators, must assume our leadership role. We must promote the understanding that this resolution is not an attempt to put one language ahead of another.

We have a collective responsibility to reassure Manitobans that we are committed to multiculturalism within a context that recognizes the rights of the founding peoples. Indeed the guaranteeing of rights of any minority must be seen as a protection, as a victory for the rights of all. From the time the agreement to amend

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act was formally announced by the Attorney-General, a number of concerns have been expressed. There are some who are publicly and are simply opposed to the official use of the French language under any circumstance. To them, I say, we cannot and we will not turn back the clock of history. Indeed, the decisions of the Supreme Court in the Forest and the Blaikie case in 1979 prevent that from being done in any event.

This decision, yo u will remember, said, the 1890 law which had declared Manitoba an English-only province was not valid, and that the language of our laws and of our courts and Legislature are to be conducted in English and in French. There are some who have called for virtually unlimited extension of the official use of the French language; calling, for example, for a constitutional provision requiring its use by municipalities and by school boards and by companies and by others.

The population change in Manitoba since 1870 does not warrant such an extension, and we will not agree to any provision imposing such requirements. We have said from the beginning that the limited obligation we have in mind is the government's alone. It affects no other institution. It certainly is not a requirement placed on any individual, any business, any organization but, in-between those two extremes, there are two other points of view. One of these is that the delivery of French Language Services by the government is a good thing, but should not be constitutionally entrenched. The other is that 5312

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 all of the circumstances we have outlined, such services should be entrenched, but the limits that we propose with respect to such services must be more clearly defined. It is our view that it is possible that these latter concerns can be accommodated while still protecting the integrity of this resolution. In a few minutes time I will be describing some proposed amendments to the resolution which I believe will deal with many of the concerns that have been brought forth.

On the afternoon of June 27th, I informed the House that the resolutions would be referred to one of the Standing Committees of the Legislature, so that people would be given an opportunity to present their views, to present their briefs and their comments. This commitment has been on the record for weeks and weeks and weeks, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am pleased that both sides of the House have been able to negotiate a process that will soon permit a standing committee to take up that task that we've been seeking for weeks.

The negotiated settlement which was struck last Friday stands as a responsible and democratic resolution of a legislative impasse that served no useful purpose for any Manitoban. The triumph of a co operative, negotiated settlement, rather than the continuation of adversarial rancour now permits us to proceed one step further in dealing with this important constitutional matter. The terms of this agreement will permit the business of this House to be concluded in a few days.

It will also permit the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, comprised of members from both sides of the Chamber, to proceed to hold public meetings and hearings on the question of French Language Services. Some three weeks after, the motion referring this matter to committee and the public was, in fact, first introduced by the Attorney-General.

Before the committee begins its important work, however, I would like to take this opportunity to describe several proposed amendments to the resolution which the government is prepared to propose, which we believe address many of the concerns that have been raised. We have carefully considered the many submissions that we have received, submissions received at public meetings conducted by the Attorney General, at meetings with municipalities, organizations of municipalities, by letters, by phone calls, in personal discussions, and from the opposition members in this Chamber.

We believe that it is possible to define the proposed constitutional provision, so they can more precisely define our intentions and leave no ambiguities for the courts to wrestle with. This is not going to be an easy task but with effort and, particularly, with good will, I am satisfied, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it can be done.

Let me say here again that it will require -indeed it's going to demand -the good will of the opposition as well in this Chamber, for the opposition has as well an important leadership role to play, to work with the government, to work with the people of Manitoba, and to protect the rights of our founding peoples, indeed of all Manitobans. Indeed, I would hope that they would follow the lead of their national leader, who has indicated he sees the initiative as a laudable move. I believe, Mr. Mulroney's sentiments underscore clearly the issue is larger than partisan politics, and I commend Mr. Mulroney for that.

An issue such as this, which touches on the fundamental question of minority language rights, must not be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency or gamesmanship. We are, of course, anxious to develop proposals so they meet the needs, as well as the concerns, and are acceptable to the people of Manitoba and to all of the parties that were engaged as well in the court action. Let me outline briefly the major concerns and our general intent with respect to those.

In doing so, I want to make it clear that it's only following public input at the meetings of the standing committee, and following discussions with all directly affected parties that actual amendments will be introduced when the Legislature finally debates this matter. I say this because we, as a government, are anxious that the meetings are a vital -that they be an important part of the democratic constitutional process. A large number of municipalities have already made their comments known. They are concerned that a court could interpret the present amendments so as to impose a legal obligation on them.

This, of course, was never our intention. The Attorney-General has stated on many occasions that the language of the proposed amendment was deliberately chosen to avoid such an outcome. Nevertheless, that concern still remains. Accordingly , let me say, unequivocally, we will be proposing an amendment which will specifically exclude municipalities and school boards from any constitutional obligation under The Manitoba Act, as amended.

The public sector employees, through their unions, while supporting the principle -and they have supported the principle of French Language Services, and they have supported their entrenchment in the Constitution -are yet concerned that the terms are too broad, and could be so interpreted by the courts as to lead to the displacement of civil servants, or to reduce employment opportunities for those who speak English only. My Ministers have been discussing these concerns with the public sector employee unions. They advise me that these discussions have been most productive.

Amendments will be proposed which will much more sharply define the government's obligation and we hope meet the major concern of the public sector employees. Concerns which we hope to resolve include, for example, the reference in

Section 27.1, "to head or central office, to administrative bodies, as well as to agencies of government"; and in

Section 27.2, "to the meaning of the term significant demand." Although the further definition of that term presents great difficulty, I now expect that we'll be able to introduce amendments that will clarify these concerns as will be required. Let my say, unequivocally, that it is our firm intention -there may be difficulties in doing this, but I am sure with constructive public input, with the good will of the opposition members in this Chamber for that is indeed a necessary ingredient, and with a positive approach of all parties, we shall succeed.

By proceeding in a constructive and in a co-operative, in a consultative way, by taking the high road, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by finding a reasoned and principled consensus amongst Manitobans, I am satisfied that Manitoba can become a model for all Canadians and in addition can promote greater tolerance, individual to individual, peoples to peoples, and that greater appreciation of the rich, cultural mosaic of the Province of Manitoba that we all cherish so much. One final comment, Mr. Speaker, that we can't and ought not to dimiss, that in this process, as difficult 5313

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 and as trying as it will be, we will also contribute to the furthering of the cause of Canadian unity. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: The Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister would permit a question or two. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has talked about substantive amendments that he and his government are proposing to the resolution surrounding

Section 23. Is he in a position to table those amendments, so that the members of the Legislature and the general public will have an ample opportunity to review them before public hearings commence in two or three weeks? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, what we will be doing is indicating, in general, general areas, as I have today, the nature of the areas that will be amended, and following public input -because it is important, Mr. Speak er, that we receive the public input -the amendments will be tabled. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, as a lawyer, I'm sure that the First Minister will appreciate that it is important for the opposition and the public to have these detailed amendments in their hands. Given the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the First Minister, on the 17th of June, refused any public hearings on this matter, refused any amendments on the matter, would he now not agree that it would be in the public interest for the public and the opposition to have these amendments in hand before we go to the committee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, first, I want to remind the Leader of the Opposition, on June 17th, I did not rule out public meetings. For the record because it's often ignored, Mr. Speaker , on June 27, 1983, I specifically indicated that the Attorney-General in due course, acting in his capacity as Government House Leader, would introduce a motion to refer the subject matter of the resolutions to one of the standing committees of the Legislature to provide a more formal opportunity for presentations from the public. The referral will require the committee to report back prior to the conclusion of debate on the resolutions. So, Mr.

Speaker, we have been anxious to receive public input, and through the public process of public input and indicating, as I have done today, the areas that we are concerned about, receiving from the public other areas that indeed they may be concerned about From that kind of input, we'll be in the best possible position with public input, subsequent to hearing from the public, to bring forth the most feasible kinds of amendments that will be enriched by the public input. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, this sudden love affair with the enrichment of public opinion that has overcome the First Minister in his statement today, will he . . . HON. R. PENNER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the First Minister said that he will take a question from the Leader of the Opposition, not a series of speeches. The Leader of the Opposition has spoken to this resolution; he is free to ask questions in question period. The First Minister said that he would answer a question.

He has answered two, but when we're beginning to get a series of speeches from the Leader of the Opposition that is not in fact what was permitted. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition, to the same point. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, will the First Minister say categorically today that it is not the intention of his government to produce any amendments whatsoever before the committee meets; and that, in effect, the people of Manitoba are to go before the committee of the Legislature and treat

Section 23, as his Attorney General said on the 17th of June, as being engraved in stone because this government won't produce them, either because it doesn't have them or it's afraid to do so? HON. R. PENNER: On a point of order, I never said that, and that is a distortion of what I said. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I think that what we ought to do is clarify what the Leader of the Opposition is asking, and what indeed I have been saying. The Leader of the Opposition is asking about the official presentation of amendments.

That, short of public input, I think, would be unwise. If the Leader of the Opposition is asking would we be prepared to work with committee members with draft amendments? Yes, of course, we'd be interested insofar as draft amendments are concerned. But I think it would be unfair to the public and to individuals and groups that would be providing input, if we provided those amendments with official status until such time as we've had public input. We are certainly interested in working in the preparation of draft amendments. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we're making some progress.

Will the First Minister then a1,1ree to table, as soon as possible, proposed draft amendments that he and his government have apparently been working on to the amendments to

Section 23? Will he do that as soon as possible? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, that certainly will be done by the Attorney-General. When he has the draft resolutions, he will share those draft resolutions with the committee. HON. S. LYON: Will that be done, Mr. Speaker, before the committee meets? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the committee sits on September 6th. The Attorney-General is working with respect to draft resolutions. If they're available by that time, he will so table them. If they are not, it will be subsequent to September 6th. 5314

Tuesday, 16 August, 1983 HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a final question. During the course of his remarks, the Premier referred to - and I wrote the words down -the necessity of these amendments because of the "continuing denial of minority rights," would he mind telling the House and the people of Manitoba what minority rights are being continually denied that will be remedied by this amendment? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if this is time for debate, certainly I'm prepared to enter into an area of debate.

The references that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to are references that have been made by outstanding leaders of . . . HON. S. LYON: What about you? You're supposed to know them all. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . Mr. Speaker, outstanding leaders within the various ethnic communities in the Province of Manitoba and their effort to ensure over a period of years that their culture, their linguistic opportunities, other opportunities be enriched and be furthered in the Province of Manitoba. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, the very initiation of The Human Rights Act was geared towards protecting the rights of - (Interjection) - well, Mr. Speaker, I don't take the denial of minority rights as lightly as it appears some honourable members do. The very reason that The Human Rights Act was brought in by the New Democratic Party Government, and the Attorney General at the time was the Minister responsible for Natural Resources, was to ensure that people would not be discriminated against on the basis of race, religion and other grounds. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, the words, "continuing denial of minority rights" were used by the First Minister in connection with the proposed amendments to

Section 23, which he has before the House. Would he mind telling the House what continuing denial of minority rights is taking place in Manitoba, since our government and his government moved to re-enact

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act? What continuing denial of minority rights is taking place in this province, pray tell? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, that is not a specific question. We are now entering into the whole field of a debate. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct one question to the First Minister. He mentioned a number 5315 of proposed changes to

Section 23(7), and I wonder whether he is also indicating or has ruled out

Section MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Member for Elmwood have the leave of the First Minister to ask a question? (Agreed) MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , the First Minister indicated that there were proposed amendments to

Section 23(7). I wanted to ask him whether he is considering any changes to

Section 23( 1 ), namely, "English and French are the official languages of Manitoba." MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I indicated that we will be receiving input from members of the public, and that we'll be looking at the resolution in full. If on the basis of input and submissions by members of the public and after due consideration and reasoning on the part of members of the committee, then it certainly is within the range of possibility that the committee can bring forth an amendment respecting that section.

We are not restricting or preventing resolutions or amendments that are based upon public input. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are yo u ready for the question? The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rhineland, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that the House do now stand adjourned. There are committee meetings following this Session of the House.

There are committee meetings tonight and tomorrow morning, and the House meets in regular Session at 2:00 p.m. tomorrow. MOTION presented and carried and the House adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday).

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-151
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 151.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2c08173f8054538c6a165bce816480c42827fec0

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