Manitoba Committee Hansard — 2 June 1993 (Education Committee, Sitting 4, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-ed4

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Sessio n -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT 42 Elizabeth II Chairperson Mr. Jack Reimer Constituency of Niakwa VOL. XLII No.4 ·8 p.m., WEDNESDAY, JU NE 2,1993 ISSN 0713-9969

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty·Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARM E, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MI TCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIME R, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOW CHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

43 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT Wednesday, June 2, 1993 TIME-S p.m. LOCATION- Winn ipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON - Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa) ATTENDANCE -10- QUORUM -6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Mr. Stefanson Mr. Ashton, Mrs. Dacquay, Messrs.

Gaudry, Laurendeau, McAlpine, Penner, Reime r, Rose, Storie APPEARING: Rosann Wowchuk, MLA for Swan River WITNESSES: Brent Stewart, �o rden & District Chamb er of Comm erce John Krahn, Mayor of Winkler Roger Em ery, Winnipeg Canadian Tire Dealers Vern Dyck, Cana di an Fede rati on of Independent Grocers Peter Kaufma nn, Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers Harold Jantz, Private Citizen Paul McKinnon, Henderson & Mcivor Foods Ltd.

Sandy Ho pkins, Wi nnipeg Cha mb er of Comm erce Dale Botti ng, Ca nadian Fede ration of Independent Business Don MacKinnon, Westfair Foods Norma n Leach, Man itoba Ch amb er of Comm erce Susan Ha rt- Kulbaba, President, Manitoba Federation of Labour A.D. Schellenberg, Independent Jewellers Joe Borowski, Private Citizen WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS: Fern and Jeanne Marion, Private Citizens Stan Phillips, Stan's IGA, Brandon Eliz abeth Selli ck, President, Ma nitoba Association of Rights and Liberties Neil Stewart, Roblin & District Chamb er of Comm erce Geo rge Gershma n, President, Touris m Association of Winnipeg N.

Blundel, District Manager, Zellers Inc., Hudson's Bay Com pany MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Bill 4- The Retail Busines ses Su nda y Shopping (Temporary Amendm ents) Act Bill 23-The Retail Busi nesses Hol iday Closing Amendme nt, Em ployme nt Standards Am endme nt and Payme nt of Wages Amendme nt Act *** Mr. Chairperson: Will the comm ittee come to order.

This comm ittee will consider the following bills this evening: Bill 4, The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Tem porary Amendme nts) Act; and Bill 23 , The Retail Busi nesses Hol iday Closing Amendme nt, Em ploy ment Standards Amendme nt and Payme nt of Wages Amendme nt Act. For the comm ittee's informa tion, copies of the bills are available at the back table. Before we resum e the proceedings, I have a few announceme nts. If this comm ittee does not conclude this evening, there will be an additional me eting tomorrow mo rning at 11 a.m ., and not 10 a.m. , as originally planned.

I would like to me ntion that since the House will be me eting tomorrow at the same time, this comm ittee will be mo ved to Room 254. It is the custom to hear briefs before consideration of the bills. What is the will of the comm ittee? Is it agreed? [agreed] I have a list of the persons wishing to appear before this comm ittee. For the committee's benefit, copies of the presenters list have been distributed. I will read the list at this time.

44 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 On Bill 4, The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Tem porary Amen dment

s) Act: Mr. Walter Kucharczyk, private citizen; Mr. Roger Emery, Winnipeg Canadian Tire Dealers; Vern Dyck, Canadian Federa tion of Independent Grocers; Mr. Harold Jantz, private citizen; Mr. Paul McKinnon, Henderson & Mcivor Foods Ltd.; Mr. Sandy Hopkins, Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce; Ms. Toby Oswald, Canada Safeway Limited; Mr. Brent Stewart, Morden & District Chamber of Commerce; Mr. Dale Botting, Canadian Federation of Independent Business; Mr. Charles Finnbogason, Bramalea Limited; Don MacKinnon, Westfair Foods; Mr. Ken Nolan, private citizen; Mr. Norm Leach, Manitoba Chamb er of Comm erce; Mr.

John Krahn, Mayor of Winkler. Also, on Bill 23, The Retail Businesses Holiday Cl osing Amendme nt, Em ployme nt Standards Amendme nt and Payme nt of Wages Amendment Act: Mr. Dale Botti ng, Canadian Federation of Independent Business; Ms. Joan Seller and Mr. Paul Mo ist, Pres ident of CUPE; Sus an Hart-Kulb aba, President of the Manitoba Federation of Labour; Mr. Sandy Hopkins, Winnipeg Chamber of Comme rce; Charles Finnbogason, Bramalea Limi ted ; Darlene Dziewit , Un ited Food & Commer cial Workers; Mr. Don MacKinnon, Westf air Foods; Mr. Ken Nolan , private citizen; Mr.

Norm Leach, Manitoba Chamber of Commerce; Randy Cameron and Art Kerr, Man itoba Association of Shopping Cen tres; Reverend Cli ff McMillan, Winnipeg Presbytery of the United Chu rch of Canada and the Association of Christian Churches in Manitoba. Should anyone present wish to appear bef ore this committee, please advise the Comm ittee Clerk and your name will be added to the list. There are some other names that will be added to the list: Mr. Schellenberg, Independent Jewellers and Mr. Borowski, private citizen.

At this time, I would like to ask if there is anyone in the audience who has a written text, to make their presentation at that time with their text. If so, we would ask that you forward the copies to the Clerk of Co mmi ttees. I have a list of the written subm issions for Bills 4 and 23. The subm issions I have are Mr. and Mrs. Marion, Private Citizens; Mr. Stan Phillips, Stan's IGA in Brandon; Elizabeth Sellick, president of the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties, and on Bill 23 ; Mr. Neil Stewart, Roblin and District Chamber of Commerce; Mr.

George Gershman, president of Tourism Association of Winnipeg; N. Blundel, district ma nager for Zellers Inc., also with Hudson's Bay Company. Before I begin with the presentations, I wish to ask the comm ittee for their guidance on a few issues. Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Chairperson, it has been customary in committees of this kind to ask whether there are people from out of town here this evening to make presentations.

I expect that, given the number of people here to present, it is likely that we will be going reasonably late this evening and, simply to facilitate their making it home in a timely fash ion, I would ask whether the committee would consider offe ring the first opportunity to speak to those who are from out of town. As you know, we atte mpted to have the government hold the committee hearings across the province so that we could give everyone who has a stake in this matter an opportunity to be before committee.

That was not part of the government's agenda, and th erefore I think it only fair and courteous to offer them the first opportunity to speak. Mr. Chairperson : Is it the will of the committee? [agreed] Mr. Steve Ashton (Thomps on): I am wondering if also we might get some agreement on how late the committee will sit-f or the convenience of memb ers of the public. I would strongly urge that we not sit any later than midnight and we perhaps assess where we are at approximately eleven o'clock and give some sort of notice at that point in time so that people are not stuck here waiting and not knowing when it will be.

But I would suggest no later than midnight for sure. Mr .C halrpers on: What isthe willofthe committee? Mr . Jack Penner (Eme rson): Wel l, I certainly concur with the member for Thompson that we should assess at eleven o'clock the will of the participants here, the will of the presenters. We should probably petition them and ask them what their will is , whether they want to remain and make their presentations or whether we should in fact adjourn. There mi ght be some that cannot make it tom orrow and I think we should listen to that. I would

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 45 suggest we do that at eleven o'clock and, if there appears to be time to hear them all, then might want to consider it at that time. Mr. Chairperson: Is that the will of the committee? [agreed] If I could get some direction from the committee. As there are presenters on both lists for both bills, is it the will of the committee to have them present concurrent with both bills? [agreed] Is there agreement to which bill we should start with? Mr.

Ashton: Yes, it is a bit of a messy situation because Bill 4 is a bill that is dealing with something that has already passed and we have a trial period. So it is a rather bizarre situation, but we do have different people on both lists. What I would suggest we do is we go through Bill 4, and where people are listed on both bills, we can maybe ask them if they want to present in sequence on Bill 4 or else present both of the bills when their name is called on Bill 4. I realize that sounds confusing. If it does sound confusing, it is, but that is the me ss we are in by having these two different bills.

I would suggest we follow the list of Bill4 and then go into the list on 23 and try our luck in cleaning up this mess. *

(2010) Mr. Chairperson: Is that the will of the committee? Agreed. We will now call Mr. Walter Kucharczyk. Pardon me, ju st to digress a bit, we were talking about the rural people first. Maybe if they would not mind identifying themse lves-! will call the names out again on Bill 4, and if they could ju st identify themselves if they are ruraL Mr. Ashton: I think the normal procedure is that anybody who is from out of town who feels they would not be able to come back another time would identify them selves with the staff, and then we can deal with it.

There may be people who are within commuting distance who do not necessarily want to go ahead of their turn in the line compared to other people, but the main thing, I think, is that we get people to talk to the staff at the back. I suggest we maybe start with the first presenter or presenters and then have that identified with staff in the meantime. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Brent Stewart. Do you have a written presentation, Mr. Stewart? Mr. Brent Stewart (Morden & District Chamber of Commerce): Yes , Mr. Chairperson, and I believe that it has been , certainly, circulated. I gave it to the Clerk to begin with. Mr.

Chairperson: You may proceed, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart: Thank you very much. On behalf of the Morden & District Chamber of Comme rce, I appreciate an opportunity to make a presentation with regard to an issue which affects rural Manitoba communities. Contrary to the widely held opinion of the Conservative government , rural Manitobans have from the very start taken a strong position with regard to Sunday shopping legislation and for the most part have been unified with regard to their opposition to such proposals.

In March of 1992, Morden & District Chamber of Commer ce wrote to Premier Filmon expressing our concerns regarding the effect that wide-open Sunday shopping would have on the rural retail economy. We are aware of other chambers who have done the same thing, as well. I believe that the minister as well as the Premier have received from the Manitoba Chamber of Commer ce as a result of their annual convention in 1992 a resolution that was passed by the convention opposing the particular legislation.

Morden & District Chamber of Comm erce has requested an opportunity to express their concerns with regard to these bills for several key reasons. Firstly, the Manitoba Legislature, in our view, should be reviewing this issue as a Manitoba issue rather than simply leaving it as a Winnipeg issue or Winnipeg question or any other mun icipality. Having Winnipeg Council decide a provincial issue as important as this to us is absurd. Most Manitoba communities which have any retail base whatsoever are opposed to the amendment of the legislation for economic and social reasons.

To begin with , a commu nity which has 6,000 citizens will have in it retailers who are not national or interna tional but me rely locally based and oftentimes family-run operations. The buying power of the retailers versus retailers existing in the city with 700,000 customers quite simply ma kes it apples and oranges. One can talk about entrepreneurial and corporate competition; however, it is im portant to recognize that, without the small, local retailer, supply and

46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 services to rural points in rural Manitoba will disappear. Internationals, such as Safeway, Superstore, will not expand to marketplaces of rural Manitoba without the city population to draw it. The larger the draw away from the rural retailer into the city of Winnipeg, the quicker the demise ofthe rural retailer will occur. With rural retailing being eliminated from our commu nities, the support institutions in those communities will also disappear. I am talking about banks, post off ices, as we have seen in many commu nities around Morden.

Eventually rural Manitoba will be completely depopulated. One only has to look at the complaints of the Winnipeg retail sector and all Manitobans to cross-border shopping concerns to see the effect of the cross-Perimeter shopping problems that rural Man itoba has faced for some long period of time. It is nonsense to suggest in any of this discussion that Sunday shopping combats cross-border shopping. From an economic point of view, the establ ishment of wide-open Sunday afternoon shopping merely splits the income, in our opinion, of six days of customers into seven.

Unless it is an intent of the major shopping centres and grocery chains to draw and suck out of rural Manitoba all of the consumer dollars, the retailer dollars, the amount being spent within Manitoba on retail is directly related to the income the families have, and from that the only change is from six days to seven. In the result, therefore, the gain received by the city of Winnipeg is totally at the expense of the rural economy, which can be seen by the paper ads which I have attached.

Both paper ads are ju st two examples, and I have many of them, but both relate to Sunday only, both relate to $50 and $30 savings with regard to Sunday shopping. It is also a situation where coupons that are attached, and some of the examples that I have relate again only to Sunday. The draw is from the country into the city in order to draw our retail dollars away from the local establishments. In addition to the concerns of the demise of the rural retailer, Morden & District Ch amber of Commer ce is also concerned about the effect that Sunday shopping has on the social network within our communities.

The decision to allow stores to be open from 12 noon to 5 p.m. on Sunday means that those stores have to be staffe d. Jo bs are too scarce to run the risk of em ployees turning down Sunday hours because they want to be with their families. Put into that situation, parents are forced to work on Sunday afternoons instead of spending time with their fam ilies.

As a family-orien ted community, Morden Chamber believes that Sunday shopping will cause more distance between family members and also eliminate many of the day activities, in particular, Sunday activities, that those fam ilies take part on in a normal weekend circumstance. All of society suffers as fam ily life deteriorates. No one gains under the proposed Sunday shopping amendme nts other than the shopping centre corporations who receive a percentage of volume shares or the large international grocer y chains that have no concerns for the rural economy whatsoever.

Do not kid yourselves, kill the rural economy, and you will ultimately end up killing the Winnipeg economy because Winnipeg's success, whether Winnipeg likes it or not, is based to a large extent on the success of rural Man itoba. I wish to thank you for this opportunity to make our views known and trust that the Legislature will give careful consideration to the effect of a decision such as this. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very mu ch, Mr. Stewart. Would you be prepared to accept a few questions. Mr. Stewart: Absolutely. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Chairperson, I appreciate the comments you make on Sunday shopping on Bill 4. I wonder, Mr. Stewart, whether you have given any consideration or whether you would want to comment on Bill23. I see that you are not on the list for presenting on Bill 23. I wonder if your council, you r chamber has given any consideration to Bill23 and whether you would want to comment on it. Mr. Stewart: Our presentation is in general, and our concern is with regard to the rural economy as a whole. We see both bills in the same light in that manner, and we are concerned about the definite effect of the bills on our rural retailers.

As a result, in general, the terms are the sam e. Specifically, I would not be at this stage prepared to go into specifics on Bill23.

June 2, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 47 Mr. Penner: Bill 23 is, of course, significantly different than Bill 4 is. Bill 4 would have designated to all the commu nities the rights of open Sunday shopping. Bill23, however, designates the choice of that and gives the authority to the local community. I wonder what your views are on the decentralization of power and decision making to the rural communities on matters such as this. Mr. Stewart: With respect, Mr.

Penner, it is a passing of the buck, and it makes it even worse for us, mainly because it is a situation where I would hope and anticipate the Manitoba Legislature would be listening to all of Manitobans. I am hard-pressed to understand why, if I make the same presentation to the City of Winnipeg, who is the main draw that we are concerned about, certainly in our area, the City of Winnipeg Council will give us any hearing whatsoever. Certainly, their voters are not rural.

They should have little or no concern with regard to the effect it has on the ru ral economy, and what they will probably be listening_to, from a political point of view, is the decisions of those voters who are putting pressure on them. So I feel, and I do not suggest, and I think probably the reports show, rural Manitoba, for the most part, is not opening on Sunday. I will guarantee you in, certainly, the Morden-Winkler area, we are not opening on Sunday.

But the fact of the matter is that does not mean that a decision locally made by the City of Winnipeg in which Morden has absolutely no say, and probably no influence-hopefu lly, we have some influence here in terms of at least being listened to. From the City of Winnipeg's point of view, they will open, and then our problem is even worse than specifically what I am referring to in general. *

(2020) What happens is, our problem is the draw that I see from the hundred miles around Winnipeg into Winnipeg on Sunday, taking away from our retailers. That is our concern. I do not feel that our local communities will open up. That is something that they would have to answer to the electorate, I suppose. But they certainly have been listening to the electorate, but not from our community's point of view, at least in our region, there is no one opening on Sunday. So it is a situation, in terms of Winnipeg, how do we have the same control unless the provincial Legislature whom we elect listens to us.

I do not think that we will have a voice at Winnipeg. Mr. Penner: It is interesting to note that prior to Bill 23 some of the major urban centre councils have strongly voiced their opposition to Su nday shopping. I am jus t wondering whether it is your assumption that those councils will now change their mi nd and will now be instituting Sunday shopping in their communities, regardless of what the public response might be. I am wondering whether you are assuming that City of Winnipeg Council would act similarly, regardless of what the reaction of the voting public might be. Mr.

Stewart: I am concerned, and dealing with the City of Winnipeg, and I know that with regard to our Manitoba Chamber -and you are going to hear from them later-the ultimate decision in '92, there was a split between Winnipeg, Brandon, Thompson opposed to our resolution opposing the Sunday shopping opening versus all the other chambers. I understand now that Brandon Council has, in fact, said that they will not open.

My concern is, yes, it is an assumption that Winnipeg will lean that way, and that is because of what I consider to be the misinformation that has been coming out of the Winnipeg press and the slant that is being taken by our associates from Winnipeg. Winnipeg Chamber is very strongly in favour and has lobbied very, very heavily. You will find other presenters, I suspect, tonight that take a very strong view, and it appears as if certainly they have the ear of many people who are in control.

If we had an individual vote on it-and I am not suggesting referendum-! am absolutely convinced that the large majority of the people, and in particular those who would be working and those who would be consumer s, do not want to have Sunday shopping, but those are not the deciding factors. I am of the view that what in fact will be the deciding factor is the influence of the major malls, influence of Safeway and other large chains like that on the council, and the political pressure that can be brought. That is my concern.

That is something where their voice is certainly not on the same playing level as what Mo rden Chamber of Commer ce would be. Mr. Storie: Thank you, Mr. Stewart, for attending this evening and for a very cogent presentation. I have to perhaps apologize for my colleague from Eme rson's questions about details of Bill23. I know

48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 that it is difficult sometimes to understand how we could be dealing with two bills simu ltaneously. Before I ask you any questions about the detail of Bill 23, I have to apologize for some rural memb ers. I would like to know whether in fact the Morden & District Chamber of Com merce would have been interested in a genuine trial period for this legislation.

When the government annou nced Bill 4, the remnants of which we are dealing with today, the government suggested this was a trial period and there would be some sort of an analysis of the economic impact on the province, on the rural economy, as a result of Bill 4. I am wondering whether the chamber would have accepted that if the government had been serious. Mr. Stewart: Mr. Storie, without scoring any political points for yourself, we are onside with you on that because it is a situation where we had, in 19 92, written letters.

We requested an opportunity to present, and I, along with many others in our community, was very upset that at best we can have hearings only in Winnipeg. If we would have had hearings throughout the countryside, I think you would have a very different view. Also, Mr. Orchard is our MLA, and his office was not even of the view that there was an issue. So we really do have opposition in terms of what the view of perhaps the government and some of our representatives are and our district, in any case.

It is a situation where we would have liked to have a true trial, but we would also have liked to have had hearings that could go throughout the country. We think it is a Manitoba issue. We jus t do not think it is restricted to Winnipeg. Mr. Storie: Well, I want to thank Mr. Stewart for his comments. I would rather be right and have the political points, but I will accept one out of two in this case. Mr. Chairperson, I have a copy of the letter Mr.

Stewart was referring to and it says: We would request that at least one hearing be scheduled in this region of southern Manitoba, and we would be pleased to organize this locally for you. That was directed to the Mi nister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson). My question then is: Had there been hearings, for example, in Morden or in your region? Would you have anticipated that local chambers from areas outside of Morden or local businesses would have been lining up to support Bill4 or Bill23? Mr. Stewart: Mr.

Chairperson, I think quite clearly there seems to be a uniform view, and I hope that I have reflected that view of the area, not just Morden & District Chamber of Commerce. Mayor Krahn is here from Winkler, and it is going to be very interesting to hear what he has to say. I think that throughout the countryside, again, from those whom I have talked to in the various Man itoba Chambers, I think our view is probably consistent with theirs. Mr. Storie: You mentioned sort of the silence of rural memb ers generally from your part of the world.

I am wondering whether you have had a chance to make any independent presentations to the minister responsible or the government in one incarnation or another. Mr. Stewart: Yes, just solely in the form of three letters, I believe, we have sent. Mr. Storie: So there has been no personal contact, no attempt really- Mr. Stewart: Well, we tried certainly to reach our MLA. We regularly discuss issues with him, and he is well aware of our particular concerns on it. Mr. Storie: You mentioned your concern that the City of Winnipeg's interest as a political entity will not be consistent with your interests.

I am wondering what you see down the road if Bill 23 should pass. In each mun icipality-th ere are what, 204 different municipalities and dozens and dozens of cities and towns. What is the province of Manitoba going to look like, in your opinion, in terms of Sunday shopping after this is all over? Mr. Stewart: I am of the view that we are looking at two very distinct patterns.

If, in fact, Winnipeg opens in terms of Sunday shopping, you may see a consistency right across the province where they do not, but as a result of that, there could be a very difficult flow away from the local retailers to the point where you are going to be seeing a lot of the communities dry up in terms of retail and services which then are not servicing the people. Populations do not grow and we have problems, and that is our concern. That is our major concern. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, to Mr.

Stewart: On a number of occasions, I have met with different chambers of commerce, including communi ties not too far outside of the city of Winnipeg, and one of the fears that has been expressed to me is the fear that despite the social and the business reasons for not

June 2, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 49 wanting Sunday shopping, there is a fear that there is an inevitability to this, that should the City of Winnipeg decide to have wide-open Sunday shopping, it is basically going to be open or die. That was expressed to me by chamber members in Steinbach, for example, that despite their deep religious concerns and convictions that Su nday shopping should be opposed, they are afraid they ultimately will be the losers financially in terms of business economically if they do not open. *

(2030) You have said categorically that you cannot see businesses in Morden opening. My question is: Do you see a time when it will be a question of survival? It will not be a question of survival? It will not be a question of ethics, it will be a question of necessity? Mr. Stewart: I am aware of the Steinbach-in fact, the president of the chamber of commerce in Steinbach is present, and I suspect that is something that, as you get closer to Winnipeg, the more that becomes inevitable. In our situation, I am not certain. We come from a community surrounded by an area of people who have strong religious beliefs.

I am not here today, and certainly in the presentation, I am not dealing with that. I think that is up to the churches and their representatives to deal with. I have my strong religious beliefs and, under the circumstances, I certainly would not be opening. But it is a circumstance where, as you get closer, perhaps the fact is, you do or die. That is our concern, because we are seeing the communities closer to Winnipeg-and you can take Morris and you can take others, Selkirk-t hat are losing more people, and you have more commuters to draw away from the communities. We are seeing that.

I just think it furthers that. In our community I would be very surprised, but how long the retailers could hold out, I do not know. Mr. Storie: Certainly, I think the minister may be one of the people, and perhaps some government MLAs are of the opinion, that someho w this is a question of developing a level playing field and all that rural Manitoba has to do to create the level playing field is agree to open on Sunday. Can you compete with SuperValu if you open on Sunday? Mr.

Stewart: I do not think that we could play on an equal level in terms of just numbers that Winnipeg has in terms of consumers, versus the 6,000 individuals who live in Morden. If I run a men's clothing store, clearly, I am drawing from an area of approximately 12, 000 individuals who may be coming into our area, and I buy at that level versus Winnipeg in Polo Park where they are having 12 ,000 a day. There is never going to be an equal playing field. What we do want, though, is we want an opportunity where our citizens do not go into Winnipeg and spend the Sunday absolutely taking all their retail dollars away.

That is something that may happen. We try to suggest some loyalty, but the fact of the matter is if I can get shoes in Winnipeg for $40 that are costing me $80 because of the buying power that my people do not have, at some stage the economy hits us all. Mr. Storie: I am wondering, you had attached, actually, a couple of ads that I have used on other occasions that basically are an inducement, in my opinion, to have rural people drive 100 or 150 kilometres to come in and shop at one of our national chains. I am wondering whether you see this as a direct consequence of the Sunday shopping legislation? Mr.

Stewart: That is exactly why it is included. The $30 is about a round figure that it would cost me to come into Winnipeg and back, so it covers my gas costs. And if you have ticket items that are saving $3, $4, $5 on Sunday only, obviously, when I am shopping and I am trying to spend my money wisely, that is what we do. It certainly is an allurement. That is the way I look at those ads, and that is why I included them. There are lots more. Those are just two examples. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, to Mr.

Stewart, in the presentation you identified your concern, long-t erm, for the economic viability of a Jot of communities in rural Manitoba. I am wondering whether you could, for comm ittee, put this into some sort of time perspective. How long is it going to be? We have seen some examples in Brandon, for ex ample. A small independent grocer basically closed his doors and said, I cannot compete. I am just wondering how long it is going to be, in your opinion, before we have some serious repercussions in the communi ty su rrounding Winnipeg before it becomes obvious that this is in fact a mistake.

50 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 Mr. Stewart: In my opinion, and, again, speaking from a Morden perspective, you have seen it already. We fight on a regular basis in terms of the perimeteritis that exists in terms of a variety of government services, and this is what we see as being another. It is a situation where it is very hard to attract retailers into our communities.

That is one of the weakest areas perhaps, and I can brag about Morden and the success that we have, and the minister well knows that we try to work very hard on it, but on a retail basis that is the one area where we just are not able to attract new retail businesses. When we lose a business, it is pretty well lost for good. That has to be as a result of our economics and the situation where there is a draw-away in general. Now specifically, if Sunday is also open, it would be, I think, 50 percent more draw because you have Saturdays that would be drawing people, Sunday now would be one extra day. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Chairperson, you mention as well in your brief that in communities like Morden there tend to be a lot mo re jobs based on fam ily-run businesses, the small independent grocers, the small independent hardwares and so forth. I am wondering if you could just tell us what percentage-! am not expecting a det aile d breakdown-of the jobs in a community like Morden are represented by small businesses, home-based businesses or family-run businesses? Mr. Stewart: In Morden, you are looking at more than 90 percent.

I would suspect that if you look at most of the rural communities around our area, they are family businesses. There are a few chains, but not too many of them, so that, business-w ise, most are family oriented or small companies that have just started up in the community. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Chai rperson, the prospect, I guess, of losing a small business in a community like Morden-which I think everyone probably here would agree has been one of the more successful communities in the last few years in terms of generating opportunities-if this is of concern to a community like Morden, how is a smaller community with 15 0 people with three or four businesses going to compete in this kind of environment? Mr. Stewart: Certainly we are not in that situation in terms of size, but obviously that is the difficulty with most small towns from Winnipeg, say to Carman.

You take a look at some of the communities, and I am involved with Roland, Miami, Manitoba, which are communities all around our area, and each one of them has lost substantial, in the last five years, business interests that have changed the nature of the towns and have forced the individuals to go elsewhere to do their shopping. So, as a result, on a bigger scale, if, as it carries on and that continues, obviously people have to go out of their communities to shop, they will go out of their communities for other things and they end up staying out of their communities eventually. Mr.

Storie: Just to get back to a previous question about, I guess, the time frame for this happening, you had said that it is already happening in Morden. I am wondering, in terms of the existing jobs in a community like Morden, would you suggest that 5 percent of those jobs or 1 0 percent of those jobs might disappear over the next two years, five years, or will it be more serious even than that in your estimation? Mr. Stewart: I do not think I could even guess on it.

I do not think it would be that substantial, because the numb er of retailers that we have in the community perhaps in the past 10 years has been declining, so there has been a pattern that has been ongoing. What we see as happening here is that pattern increasing. It is a situation where it is more difficult to compete. It is certainly more difficult in terms of buying power to compete against bigger areas, and we jus t will not compete.

So over a period of time, I do not know how long it would take, but it is a situation where there will be a decline in terms of those businesses, but we also will not fill those ones that are gone. That is the pattern I am seeing. Mr. Storie: I am gathering from your presentation and your remarks that, in your view, this is going to seriously undermine the rural economy generally.

I am wondering if you see a bit of an irony in the fact that governments and not just the present government, but governments, certainly this one included, have spent considerable money through programs like REDI and supporting Grow Bonds and rural entrepreneur assistance programs, in trying to put money back into rural Manitoba to create jobs while undermining it with legislation like this. Does that make a lot of sense? *

(2040) Mr. Stewart: I have to certainly compliment the government of today in saying that REDI , saying

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 51 that the Grow Bonds-and I will jump in at this stage and say that Morden was the first Grow Bond corporation. We had the first Grow Bond corporation for Rimer Alco, so we have been very much active in terms of all of the sourcing of funds available that have been going, including decentralization. I am involved extensively in the development corporation of our community. We have difficulty in selling a business, a community, unless it is full service.

So if we have problems-and I hope we are considered a success- the smaller community or the commu nity that has less to offer is going to be looked upon, again, even more remotely than what we are. So it cannot be a win situation under those circumstances. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, one of the things that Bill 4 was supposed to do was give the government a chance to review the repercussions.

I am wondering whether you are aware of any undertaking by the government, the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism or any agency of government, to review the impact, the potential impact, of this legislation on your community or your area. Mr. Stewart: Not that I am aware of, no. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I am not surprised that Mr. Stewar t indica tes there has been no undertaking. It is one of the criticisms we have leveled at the government since the introduction of the bill, that there was no serious attempt to assess the impact.

The final area I wanted to deal with that you raised in your brief was the issue of the impact on employees and on families. I am wondering whether at this point you can tell us whether there has been any direct impact on recreational social activities as a result of this legislation. Has it taken people away from Morden to shop on Sunday? Has it changed anything significantly to this point in your community? Mr.

Stewart: To be perfectly honest, at this stage, because there was only one business that tried to open on Sunday and it paid the price for it, so it closed and it folded-u nfortunately, it was not the individual who was managing it, but it was his headquarters that had said to be op_e n in the afternoon. That situation has not really been felt so much in Morden. There are certainly people who may be leaving and shopping more than before. That is something that we cannot determine.

Obviously, they are not going to brag to the chamber of commerce that they are doing this, so it is not a situation that can be monitored. In all honesty, I know that several of our memb ers have spoken to individuals who are working on Sunday, whether they happen to be church related or friends and relatives in Winnipeg where they are working at Polo Park and other locations, and were well aware that, have their druthers, they would not be there. They also do not have the guts to stand up and say, no, I am going to pass on this.

So, as much as you say that you have that opportunity, the fact of the matte r is, if Steinbach and others are put into a pressure situation where their back is against the wall, I would be concerned that to stay economically viable or jus t to exist, that there is going to have to be hours that are taken, and those hours are clearly away from our families. Our fam ilies are at a risk situation now, and I see that in terms of our community, which is a small, safe community, but certainly the big cities even worse.

They are at risk, and I feel very strongly that with regard to that we should be supporting the families and this does not support them in my view. That is one that is strongly held, and it is as important as the economic side of it. Mr. Storie: Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Ashton: Yes, I jus t have one question. I would just like to preface it by saying that I am from Thompson, and I know some of the discussions that have gone on, by the way, wit hin our own community.

Regardless of offi cial positions and debates, it is very much an issue in our community, and yet we are in a community which is four hours from any other comm unity that is anywhere close to having any retail sector. There is not that pull.l mean there is still very much concern in our chamber of commerce and within the small business commu nity vis-a-vis the pull of Winnipeg, given the fact it is eight hours down the highway. I can, quite frankly, jus t imagine what business people are going through in communities such as Morden now, given that mu ch stronger pull.

I guess you have already covered some of this, but what I am hoping we can get out in this committee is what we could have had perhaps if there had been a different setup where we could have perhaps gone into communities. My preference, by the way-and I think it is something that we should look at in the future on issues such as this-wo uld have been not

52 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 to bring in a bill, but to send the committee out in advance. I am just wondering if you can give some flavour and there was some reference-a nd I do not mean this as a political shot or anything-whether it was an issue or not. The people whom I have talked to, whom I know from communities around here, many people are very concerned, and some people are extremely nervous about what the impact of this can be, and particularly even with Bill 23.

If the city moves ahead and has wide-open Sunday shopping, it almo st does not really matter what is going to happen to small communities. What is the level of concern out there? Is this jus t sort of another issue, or are people really concerned about it in the community? Is it really an issue? Mr. Stewart: Mr. Chairman, certainly, I speak from the business commu nity in Morden. On an individual basis I could speak to you about the churches, and that is very much a hot topic, and, hopefully, there will be some representation with regard to that aspect .

From a business point of view, there is a real concern, because it is a situation where our retail me rchants look at this as a do-or-die situation over a long period of time. How long that is going to be, we do not know, but ultimately, if it goes to an individual mu nicipality and city decision, we feel it is just a matter of time. Winnipeg will draw, and will draw a large portion of the dollars. That means that those people will be out of work, looking in other lines. It also makes it difficult, overall, for the em ployment side.

I am not sure, in terms of numbers that are tied to the retail community in Morden, but the loss of any job is a diff icult situat ion, especially in our community because of the size of it. If you get wholesale closures, it will just be a matter of time before others follow. That is our concern. At this stage, I do not think Morden, from a labour point of view, really has an opinion, because we have not opened. That will stay-probably Morden, Winkler, Altona. I think Mr. Penner may back me on this. I do not believe we will open. They will be the last refuge, if nothing else.

So it is hard for us to test that, other than, I can indicate the one business that did open, he was forced to open. He closed the next Sunday because of the repercussions of phone calls and complaints. That is just a very strong local community view, but it is one that is very deeply felt. It is definitely something that we feel everybody should be at least aware of from our commu nity's point of view. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau {St. Norbert): I just have a couple of questions of Mr. Stewart. Mr.

Stewart, I do have to say that the retailers of Winnipeg should be a lot more scared of losing our retail business-or our large business to Morden than you are losing your sales to us. Mr. Stewart: We can only hope. Mr. Laurendeau: With your taxation structure in Morden, I am afraid that it is getting more and more cost-effective to move down there. We are sort of hoping our City Council will take after your councils of the Morden area. When you say, no Sunday shopping in Morden, is there no Sunday shopping whatsoever at this time? Mr. Stewart: Mr. Chairperson, what we are talking about is the four and under.

The only shopping that exists in Morden, and I think Winkler and I think Altona- although others can maybe speak on this-would be your gas station and an equivalent to a family-run small groceteria that has two staff people in it. That is all that is open. Mr. Laurendeau: That is open on Sunday with two staff in it at this time, a grocery store? Mr. Stewart: Yes, it is an equivalent of a Mac's or a 7-Eie ven, but much smaller. Mr. Laurendeau: I am glad you clarified to Mr. Ashton about whom you were representing.

Within the community itself as a whole, if there is such a large majority of the people opposed to the Sunday shopping, why is it you are scared these people will come and shop in Winnipeg? Mr. Stewart: I think it is a situation where, in small communities we try to push loyalty and try to support our locals. But the fact of the matter is, I go into Winnipeg to visit my fami ly.

When I am in there and I can get $30 off for this or that at my Safeway and it has prices that may be lower than our local grocer on certain items, the fact of the ma tter is, if economically I am watching my dollars at the best of times, I think that it is a situation where those people will stop in. We are not all diehards, and it is a situation where, certainly, they are consumers as well and will shop where they can get the best price. *

(2050) Mr. Laurendeau: Do you think they are taking advantage of the situation today then, prior to the

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 53 wide-open shopping wi th more than fou r employees? Were they taking advantage of the convenience of the shopping at the larger stores that were open today and last year with four em ployees? Mr. Stewart: I do not think so, and the reason for that is because, for the most part, the shopping centres, the Polo Parks and that, were closed. What we are talking about is perhaps groceries. My own personal opinion, you would be nuts to go into Safeway, that has the volume that they have with a large number of people, with only four serving you.

I am not a good shopper so that is just a comment on it. But, if that is a concern-and let us go to cross- border shopping for a second-we cannot stop a lot of Canadian people going south and buying down there, even though we feel that they are drawing away from taxes and all of those things. We cannot stop that, but it is a situation where we can remind them that we do have benefits within the community and, should they take all their mo ney there, we will not have the community very often hanging in there in terms of retail and other things.

I think that certainly has been the hue and cry of the retailers in Winnipeg. All that we are doing is doing it the reverse. We are saying, try to shop locally. Mo st small com mu nities ha ve that approach. We hope that people will follow it, but what you are doing is allowing a more easy method into Winnipeg and doing wide-open shopping from 12 to 6 or 12 to 5 on Sundays for those people. It is a situation where it is a difficult problem. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Stewart, I just have a couple of qu est ions.

I was pleased to be out in your community a few weeks ago for the announcement of Carte International and their expansion and creation of additional jobs in your fine commu nity fo llo wing on the heels of oth er positive announcements for your community. You touched on some concerns, economic concerns, and you touched on religious and moral concerns.

I wanted to ask you, on the latter first of all, on the religious, moral grounds, do you feel that what we call the municipal option of allowing communities to make a decision whether or not to be a part of wide-open Sunday shopping provides a degree of comfort or protection for communities that are very concerned about that within their area to address that side of the issue? I will come to the economics in a minute, but in terms of the religious, moral side of the issue. Mr.

Stewart: In terms of splitting it, that sounds good, and it certainly answers, say, our community's concern as opposed to being forced open, although I am not sure that it would open on Sunday. But it is difficult because, realistically from an economic point of view, if I have religious beliefs that say on Sunday that I should be at home-and I am not talking about going to church. What I am talking about is, I believe that Sunday is a day of rest, and I have strong religious beliefs in that regard and that I should not be doing my work.

The fact of the matter is that the subtle pressures that can be brought by the em ployer in not giving the hours readily available are things that cannot be legislated and cannot be controlled. So if in factthe City of Winnipeg opens the Sunday option, and either open at all Sunday or jus t the one to five, the fact is the individual is not protected.

The community is, yes, and I would think that is why, from our community's point of view, I do not ever see it opening-and I may be totally wrong, but from an individual's point of view, from an individual's rights, yes, they cannot be forced to, but they certainly, through subtle effect of the employer, can be. It is a situation where it is playing with fire as far as I am concerned. Mr. Stefanson: I will move to the economics, Mr. Stewart. We will use Winnipeg as the example of Winnipeg opens and the concern about the draw from rural Manitoba, from Morden or from other communities.

Certainly, that is a concern we are listening very closely to, I can assure you. A couple of questions- well, fi rst of all a comment that we have been doing some tracking of retail sales during that period, getting retail sales tax remittance figures and seeing what the impact is across our province from the retail sales tax growth and retail sales growth both in Winnipeg and in other parts of Manitoba. Actually, during the trial period, retail sales were reasonably well in Manitoba and, actually, they were stronger in rural Manit oba than they were in Winnipeg which was an interesting statistic.

There can be a whole range of reasons why that is occurring. I think we all recognize that. It is not necessarily solely or only Sunday shopping. But we have a situation-a nd I am wondering if you are aware that Sunday shopping, what we call

54 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 wide-open Sunday shopping, is currently allowed, I believe, in every state in the United States. It is now allowed in every province in Ca nada, I think, except for two, and we have the municipal option in place in all of western Ca nada, other than Manitoba right now. We have it in place in Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. To the best of my knowledge, that has not led to the devastation of the rural economies in those communities. Many of those provinces, states, have very strong rural economies, rural communities.

I am wondering what you think is diffe rent about Manitoba. Mr . Stewart: It is somewhat unfair to talk generalities because, in all honesty, I do not have statistics to back me up, but I can take North Dakota as an example. I certainly am aware of northern North Dakota because we monitor it pretty closely. The fact of the ma tte r is northern North Dako ta-you take Langdon, Walhalla, all of those communities-is having a very difficult time with Grand Forks. They have somewha t of a similar problem as Winnipeg to Grand Forks. Well, they have somewhat of a similar draw down in that direction.

Now, that is the small locality from which I can speak. I know speaking with Langdon business people and Walhalla business people, that is a problem. Now, in terms of other states, I cannot make comments here. Mr. Chairperson: No other questions? Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart: Thank you very much. I appreciate your attention. Mr. Chairperson: I am led to believe that there is only one other person from out of town and, at this time, I will call Mr. John Krahn. Mr. Krahn, do you have a written presentation? Mr. John Krahn (Mayor of Winkl er): No. Mr.

Chairperso n: Okay, you may proceed with your presentation. Mr. Krahn: First of all, I want to thank the Queen's Printer and Annette Landry for sending me the information for Bill4 because we did not have it, and I got the message yesterday around 6:30 that this was happening here, and I certainly appreciate the opportunity to speak. I could actually ditto mark pretty well everything that Mr. Stewart said because he comes from our community, also. I am from the town of Winkler, and I would just like to give you a little bit of background about myself. I have been a school administrator for 20 years.

I am quite familiar with how family units work. I have had all kinds of problems in family units in a school system and, now, we look at Sunday shopping, and we are again looking at some problems in that area. I think our council has sent in a resolution opposing Sunday shopping. I believe the reasons why we took that step from the Town of Winkler is basically that our business community was not in fa vour. They indicated to us that they were not in favour of Sunday shopping.

Some of the business units, in fact, have tried sometimes to be open on a day other than Sunday, such as a religious holiday, and they find themselves being next to boycotted because nobody comes in, which means that their overhead costs are high, which indicates to them that it is not worth the effort. Then the other business units, of course, they look at the wider-range perspective when they look at large cities where Sunday shopping could become a reality, and they see that as a draining of economic resources from the community.

Now, in terms of my background, the reason why I gave it is the separation of family. We feel that it is very significant that the family, at least, have one day where a bonding can occur. In the larger sector, many of our school kids obviously have jobs, and we do have right now anywhere in the school system something like 40-50 percent of our kids who are em ployed in business, and it would only add to more days for them on a Sunday yet. I think that we need to protect our young people in the larger sector.

Also, I believe that, of course, there are some religious reasons for individuals who oppose Sunday shopping, but on a pure economic basis I think that we need to make every effort to keep the family together, because part of the family is also an economic unit. The more dysfunctional groups we create in the system, the larger the public cost will be in the long haul. I believe we need to be aware of what can happen into the future. * (21 00) Also, I believe that the chamber of commerce did uphold in indicating that the businesses were not in favo ur of Sunda y shopping.

I certainly can understand that for the small busi ness units, probably small grocery stores that are basically

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 55 open from 12 to 6 on Sundays with very, very small margins, and that is that they do not have a high clientele-fo r some of those units, there may be some reason for being open on Sunday. They are there right now, but there are basically in our town very few businesses that are open on a Sunday, even smaller ones. With that, I think I will conclude because Mr. Stewart has certainly spoken well for the area and is also part of our community. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Krahn. Would you be willing to take any questions? Mr. Storle: Thankyou, Mr.

Krahn.la ssume that you were here earlier when the Mi nister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) asked Mr. Stewart the qu estion about why in communities such as Winkler and Morden, where there is considerable opposition to Sunday shopping for personal and religio us reasons, why those commu nities migh t be concerned that their members would be heading to Winnipeg or other centres to Sunday shop if that was available. I am wondering what your view on that question might be. Mr.

Krahn: I think the reasons why they are opposed to Sunda y shopping are partially economic, and it does happen that when people drive around-and I think that we have people visiting the city of Winnipeg. I, in fact, often do myself. I mu st say, though, that I have not been in a single store in the city of Winnipeg on Sunday. They will, in all likelihood, see the larger store open and say, let us see what we can find there. If it is something they need conveniently, they will pick it up, rather than shopping at home.

Those are the types of things I think we are also somewhat concerned about, because of the fact that it could be convenience shopping, rather than a need to go and shop. Mr. Storie: I just have a comment. Mr. Stefanson also raised the question of, how is Manitoba different from North Dakota. Manitoba, unlike many other ju risdictions, has one centre which has 60 percent of the population. It is a sort of economic magnet, if you will, which in many other cases, Saskatchewan included, it is quite dispersed. In North Dakota, there are many other sorts of similarly sized centres.

I am wondering whether you, as mayor of the community, have had an opportunity to sit down and discuss this issue with your representatives or the minister or representatives of the government. Mr. Krahn: I have indicated to the representative on one occasion that we certainly are not in fa vour of the Sunday shopping concept. As responsible citizens in a country, we need to also be aware of other wishes of other groups. I do not think we are tunnel-visioned to the degree that we can only see our own selves. Certainly, we will be further making our wishes known in terms of what we think.

We have stood by that position. Just this morning, I met with two business leaders in the community and I asked them that specific question. I did not indicate to them that I was probably coming here tonight to speak, because I wanted a fair indication. I asked them what they thought of Sunday shopping, because they are in business. They said, well, no, as far as they were concerned, they were operating a family business and they had all the work they could handle in six days and they did not need another day. That was their position. Maybe, I thought I would hear something else, but that is what I heard. Mr.

Storie: Mr. Chairperson, the anecdote Mr. Krahn jus t related to us has been repeated to myself many times, with the comment that it is likely that the chairperson of the board of SuperValu or Canada Safeway is not on the shop floor Sunday afternoon,

whereas, the family business person is, along with his son or his daughter or his grandmother or whatever. I guess a follow-up question to that is: Given the fact that you are one of two people apparently from rural Manitoba-wou ld you have appreciated a chance to have these kinds of hearings out in rural Manitoba? What do you expect the results would have been if this hearing had been in Winkler? Would you be here by yourself? Mr. Krahn: No, I would not. The Free Press came to interview, and maybe some of you read it. I would not have been here by myself.

I think you would have 40, 50, people, around, being concerned about it. The second thing is, it is somet imes I guess by default that these hearings are not before the issue. I believe that, the trial issue, people basically felt, well, we see it is a trial. After that, decisions will be

56 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 made. If the trial does not work, very well. Then there will be a second look at the bigger decision. I believe the last thing we need in rural Manitoba, and I believe even in the city, is to pit commu nity against community. You can leave it to us as council. Then I will likely go to the other Krahn in the other town, in Morden, and then it could be that both Krahns are in trouble. Nevertheless, I think I would indicate that is the scenario you get. I do appreciate the fact that we have been able to appear here. Mr.

Storie: You raise another interesting question, and it is about the magnanimous way in which the government has foisted this decision off to the municipalities and tried to make necessity look like a virtue. The fact of the matte r is in many other areas of endeavour, the government takes charge.

I have a letter here from an individual who was presenting a written brief, and it says, can you imagine the ludicrousness of, for example, the province-1 forget what the min iste r's words wer e -decentralizing decision making to municipalities in the matter of daylight saving, that every 40 miles you changed your watch. I am wondering what is going to happen in your area, for example, if Morden decides to Sunday shop and Winkler continues to say no. Mr. Krahn: First of all, I would like to say that I appreciate the government for allowing us the opportunity to speak. That is a very important right.

I do appreciate the problem that I would have as mayor of the town of Winkler if Morden would be open or if Altona, for that matter, would be open on a Sunday, because you set a direction. The direction that is set could be negative, and there would be a lot of maybe this or that. I think there would be diff icult decisions we would have to make. Mr. Storie: You had referred to the danger of pitting one community against the other, and I am wondering whether you see that happening as mun icipalities struggle with their decision on Sunday shopping. Mr. Krahn: I could see it happen. Mr.

Storie: Just a final question, I guess, on the government's Bill 4 which talked about a trial period and some sort of evaluation afte r. I am wondering whether your community or you as a representative of the community of Winkler are satisfied that the government has done any kind of analysis on the impact in your area or in rural Manitoba. Mr. Krahn: We ll, I have not seen statistics, but I would assume that some homework has been done and that it has been found to go through this kind of procedure. Whether more evaluation will take place after this procedure is finished, I do not know.

I do not have that kind of track. I would assume that some evaluation would be done on the process. * (211 0) Mr. Storie: Mr. Ch airperson, I jus t have a final question to Mayor Krahn. I am assuming that you are here this evening, perhaps not overly enthusiastic about the status quo that was arrived at in 19 87 where businesses with four staff were allowed to remain open.

I am assuming that the status quo has worked reasonably well for Winkler in the province and that you would have no objection if the government were to today say, well, let us just withdraw this legislation; it is not going to be good for rural Manitoba and let us go back to the status quo, to the compromise that was worked out to protect small businesses in the rural parts of the province. Mr. Krahn: We would concur with that. Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Cha irperson, just briefly in reference to the local option aspect of the second bill and the discussion a few moments ago about pitting one community against another.

I am not certain of the situation in Morden-Winkler, but the area that I represent to the west of you, all the commu nities in that area have had the opportunity under the current legislation to open on Sunday, as it is, with four employees or less, and there has never been any kind of community rivalry or confrontation among communi ties with the current ability to open on Sunday, so how do you see this-and perhaps you did not say that; perhaps it was the honourable member for Flin Flon who was trying to raise that concern-current proposal of local option as being any different from what we now have in most of rural Manitoba?

Mr. Krahn: The local option is on a small basis. When you open it wide, there are the dynamics that happen that are not there right now. Mr. Rose: Just further to that, one of my concerns in the discussion on this whole topic was you alluded yourself a moment ago that you have your point of view but you did not necessarily mean- and you understood that there were other points of view around the province that needed to be considered. I

June 2, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 57 appreciated that comment. I guess that is part of the problem that I have as an MLA. I refuse to adopt the notion that we are 57 pigs at a trough with our elbows out trying to get all we possibly can for our own local constituency and totally losing sight of the overall good of the province. In this particular instance, with the local option being in place in the western part of the province, I am not altogether certain that Brandon, for exam pie, will adopt the wide-open Sunday shopping.

They may, but it will be their decision to make and in simila r commun ities-Dau phin, for exam ple, Portage Ia Prairie, and I appreciate that for Morden-Wi nkler, Winnipeg is by far and away the community that will affect you most. It still seems to me that other parts of the province need to have that opportunity to mak e those decisions. Would you comment on that, please? Mr. Krahn: I believe we have the privilege to make that decision, local option, and that is what it is now, right? I mean, we have the four people from 12 to six.

I can understand that when we in Winkler go for open shopping, there could be communities smaller than we who would be pressured unduly. I think we have accepted as a fact that we want to work together as a larger unit. I believe our health reform dictates it, many other areas dictate it, and therefore we need to be together on an issue. It does not work for us as a single council to make our own decisions on sensitive areas, the same as it will not work in a lot of other areas.

It would appear to me that the Manitoba legislative body is probably in the best position to see the overall impact of what is really happening because they obviously have mo re information than I as an individual have, or as a town has. Mr. Rose: I will not spend too much time on this, but it is a very interesting point to me. I agree with your point that the pressure may come from the larger centres, and I totally agree with what you are saying, that we obviously need more and more co-operation among our rural communities than we have been accustomed to in the past.

But I still do not recognize the point-and perhaps I am misunderstanding-that there will be pressure between rural communities. If there is pressure, it will come from the larger centres. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Mr. Krahn: Yes, the first pressure would come from the city of Winnipeg, okay? There would be pressure from it, and if they would go for Sunday shopping, then, of course, there would be pressure for us. I believe what would happen in the rural areas, if I can just project a little bit, eventually the rural areas may go that direction if the larger unit does. You know, that is there.

They would certainly hesitate. There would certainly be problems within the community if it were going that way, and therefore I think we are saying that let us work together on it. My position is we sometimes cannot all be winners all the time, and we sometimes have to give. Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Krahn, I only have a couple of observations here. You strike me as an enterprising individual. I am jus t wondering how far you think governments should go in making decisions for the people of Manitoba? Mr.

Krahn : I believe with the opportunities we have today, it probably can be evaluated and then ma ke the decision. I think that we as councils make decisions in that way. We try to get all the information we can get, and sometimes we have to go with a mi nority decision. That sometimes happens where a group there says, do this, and we say, no, we will do this. Mr.

McAlpine: I recall the presentation that you made a couple of years ago when we were in Morden on drug, alcohol and substance abuse, and I think your presenta tion sug gested that communities had to take responsibility for the issues and concerns that they had for themselves. I am jus t wondering if there is some relationship between this and Sunday shopping in terms of responsibility. Maybe you would like to comment on that. Mr. Krahn: I believe the people who are in authority obviously have a responsibility to make decisions. Mr.

McAlpine: Are you saying that the residents and the people of Mani toba do not have a responsibility as individuals to make that decision? Mr. Krahn: Yes. May I just continue? Not all the residents of Manitoba are familiar with the issue. Not all of Man itoba has information, even as much as I have. They can read it in the press, but that is not suff icient. Mr. McAlpine: But is not still their responsibility to determine what the Sunday shopping issue is? That really goes with the territor y of taking the responsibility. Would you not agree? Mr. Krahn: Yes, I would agree.

58 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 Mr. McAlpine: Thank you. Mr. Penner: I appreciate , Mr. Krah n, your appearance here today. Having been, of course, the representative for the Town of Winkler for some two years, I appreciate it greatly the work that you did on council and the representation you made, very forcefu lly at times, to your representative and government, as you are again today making the case for the residents and the electorate, the constituents of your area.

We all know in Manitoba that the Winkler Morden-Aitona area has always traditionally been seen as a fairly religious, predominately Men nonite area, and the et hnic, religious backgrounds certainly have carried them a long way in maintaining the set-aside Sunday and retaining Sunday as not only a family day but a day of worship. We think we all respect that.

However, over the last number of years, when one travels that area, as I have had the opportunity to do-not only in that area, but other areas of the province-it is interesting to note that specifically the farm community has done an almost-complete turnaround. It is not only customary now or very, very evident that, on Sunday morning or even Sunday afternoons, the drills in the spring are running full speed on many farms in that area, which 10 years ago simply was not the case. • (21 20) On Sundays, during harvest season, combines are-or the area is hardly discernible from other parts of Manitoba now.

Again, 10 years ago, that was simply not the case. So I think there has been a thought change there, that that area and that commu nity have seen som e very significant changes. You talk about boycott of a given business in your commu nity that tried Sunday opening. I am wondering, Mr. Mayor, whether you see that kind of action being prevalent against any community, be it the city of Winnipeg or others, by rural Manitobans, in fact, boycotting if they feel that strongly about Sunday shopping? Mr. Krahn: Mr.

Penner, I would suggest that in the first case, your example of the farm equipment, farm machinery beginning to work on Sundays, I believe now, with the last number of years of economic difficulty, it has taken on the same shape as when I go home down Mou ntain Avenue in Winkler and I see a corner grocer store there and I say, my goodness, I still need milk. Because of necessity for certain reasons, they have said, well, maybe we can get a few acres done. I have brothers in the Carman area who have adopted that philosophy.

Now, to your other part of the scenario, yes, there has been somewhat of a change over the last number of years. I believe "boycott" is a strong word, but that is what this business used, to me, that term. That is why I am using it. He felt he had been boycotted because he was open on a religious holiday, not Sunday. It would depend on how strongly the people feel, because a lot com es throu gh the area of neighbour-to- neighbour discussion, since people know each other and they do influence each other in a community such as ours, even though it may not come directly from the pulpit of the church.

I think the church's business is to teach, and the individuals and memb ers need to make up their minds and decide what they feel is right. Mr. Penner: The Sunday shopping issue or the whole issue of Sunday, maintaining it as a religious day, has been very significant in the church's teaching in those areas, and still is. It has, in my view, always been, as I think it should be, a very personal thing as to whether one abides by one of the Ten Commandmen ts which says: on six days you shall labour and the seventh you shall set aside. I am wondering, Mr.

Mayor, whether you feel that community will maintain that stance regardless of what other commu nities do, and whether they will hold true to their religious beliefs as they have in the past in that sense. Maybe that is an unfair question; you do not have to answer if you do not want to. Mr. Krahn: Yes, it is fair, and to the future I would venture an observation. The observation that I would like to make is what the mix of the community will be 10 years down the pike. When I started as councillor 14 years ago, there were restrictions there that are not quite there at the present time.

Yet, some of them have remained. I could not have forecasted 14 years ago what I would need to do today. Those are some of the questions that are open-ended. Mr. Penner: Mr. Storie before, Mr. Krahn, asked the question regarding the freedom of the choice of the individual communities on this matter. Do you believe the same choice that individuals make, whether they want to shop on Sunday or not, should be retained, in that, that choice should be

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 59 given to the communities, as this piece of legislation that we are discussing does in fact do? It really does divest centralized decision making. I know the honourable member opposite loves to centralize decision making, maybe much more than we do on this side of the House. We would like to see a lot more local autonomy yet put in place than others might see.

I am wondering what your position is, whether you would like to se e go vernmen ts give local communities or local government authorities more authority to make those kinds of decisions, as we do in this bill, than we have in the past. Mr. Krahn: Mr. Penner, I would probably answer to that, part of my answer I gave previously. I believe had we had the opportunity to do more previous discussion on the issue before we moved in this direction, I would say, yes, but this to me is after the fact. We are now wrestling with a decision-ha ving to make a decision where there has not been discussion internally.

That I think is the problem . Mr. Penner: Thank you. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I cannot resist Mr. Penner's comments about the need to centralize decision making. I simply asked Mr. Krahn whether he was consulted when Bill4 was introduced, which was the heavy-handed arm of the Conservative government imposing wide-open Sunday shopping. Mr. Krahn: I was aware that something was happening, but I certainly did not know the detail. I am not the kind of guy who likes to shake everything off on politicians, okay? Mr. Storie: We all appreciate that, Mr. Krahn. Jus t one final question.

I think it is a legitimate question that this committee should be asking, and that is: Why are we dealing with this legislation at this time? Certainly, in my experience-and I have met with hundreds of business people in the last six months across the province, thousands of people-1 have certainly never heard a hue and cry for wide-open Sunday shopping. I guess the question is, who is going to benefit from this legislation? Mr. Krahn: I think I should have run for an elected position in the Man itoba Legislature. Somebody asked me one time, but I did not do it. I do notthink I would be able to answer that.

What was the last part of your question? Sorry, sir. Mr. Storie: Why are we here discussing wide-open Sunday shopping and who wins by it? Mr. Krahn: I think it is fair to bring an issue forward and bringing the issue forward to allow people to think about the issue. I would have preferred it the other way around, as I me ntioned before, but I do not think that there is anything wrong with bringing the issue forward. Mr. Storie: My question more specifically was in a business sense. Sunday shopping is not simply a question of consumer choice.

It is also a question of business survival and business success and profits. My question was in a business sense, who wins by this legislation? Mr. Krahn: I think the last three years we did not have Sunday shopping and, obviously, there were businesses in trouble. ! do not think that anything will change if we actually do instigate Sunday shopping. I do not think that businesses that have financial problems will necessarily be bailed out by Sunday shopping.

I think that for a business to be bailed out, there are other things-res tructuring internally, that is sometimes required-a nd I do not think it is Sunday shopping. * (213 0) Mr. Stefanson: Mayor Krahn, I want to thank you for your presentation. I just have one brief question. I am not sure whether you or Winkler serve on the Federation of Canadian Municipalities or whether you have an opportunity to interact with some of your counterparts across Canada, but probably more importantly in western Canada.

I am coming to that issue of pitting communities against each other and the concern that has been raised at this table: whether or not you have ever heard any discussion or evidence of any concerns in western Canada whe re all three provinces -Saskatc hewan, Alberta and British Columbia have wide-open Sunday shopping with mu nicipal options, where B.C. and Alberta are the same as we are proposing here today where the municipalities have to bring in a by-law to stop Sunday shopping. Mr.

Krahn: I am happened to be at the Federation of Canadian Municipality convention in Edmonton just last weekend, and I did speak to some of my Alber ta counterparts. There is uneasiness. Sometimes there is uneasiness, and eventually you bite the bullet and say, well, let us forget about the issue. Do you know what I am saying? Mr. Stefanson: It is a fair comment, uneasiness. I think anytime there is change, or a change in direction, change in opportunities-<:hange creates

60 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 uneasiness. There is no doubt about that, but I was curious if you had specific examples of mayors of communities saying, the community of Winkler and the community of Morden are at odds-1 am using Manitoban examples, obviously-because one is going with the wide-open Sunday shopping and another has chosen not to. The review that we have done is we have no evidence of commu nities fighting. We have also seen that there is a mixed bag. Some communities have decided to implement it, and some have decided not to.

So I can appreciate the uneasiness, but I guess I am taking it that next step. There was concern mentioned about pitting communities and what it could do to the fabric of co-operation. To date, I have seen no evidence of that, and I was curious if you had any examples or first-hand evidence of that. Mr. Krahn: No. I believe at the larger level you probably would not see it. I did talk to a concerned alderman or councillor from the city of Coaldale, which has some makings of the type of community that we are in, not completely.

There were concerns there, but if you are one amo ngst three who oppose it or amongst six who oppose it, where are you? I think that you are obviously counted as either that you will not make much diffe rence even if you did have strong feelings, or you better give up your council seat if you are that strongly in disagreement with it. I think that is the issue. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Krahn. I will now call Mr. Walter Kucharczyk. I will now call Mr. Roger Emery, Winnipeg Canadian Tire Dealers.

I believe that his presentation has been distributed, so we have a copy of it on hand. Mr. Emery, you can proceed. Mr. Roger Emery (Winnipeg Canadian Tire Dealers): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this evening. As you know, my name is Roger Emery, and I am one of the independent Canadian Tire dealers here in the city. We have circulated a presentation. I do have a few comments to make as I go along that are not included in the text, and I hope you will bear with me as I expound on some of those points.

I also have a bit of a nervous frog in my throat from a cold that I am just trying to get over, so- Mr. Chairperson: There is water there at your convenience, if you like. Mr. Emery: Thank you very much. Background: Up until 19 88, we Canadian Tire dealer s were strongly opposed to wide-open shopping on Sunday for both quality of life and economic reasons.

In fact, we were on record as being opposed in March, 1984, with the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, M.P., federal Minister of Transport; the Honour ab le Roland Penner, Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affai rs; the Honourable Gary Filmon, then-Leader of the Opposition; the Honourable Gerry Mercier, then-MLA; Mayor Bill Norrie; and the department of the Attorney General of Manitoba. In August of 19 88, we wrote to the then-Mi nister of Labour, Honour able Ed Conn ery, again expressing our opposition to wide-open Sunday shopping.

However, we indicated our increasing concern that more and mor e retailers were circumventing the law or its intent. We noted that many of the so-called drugstores were selling a variety of items other than prescription drugs, including hardware, leisure products, appliances, gardening, gift items, et cetera. (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) They were also using anywhere from six to 13 staff memb ers on a Sunday. The four-person rule did not apply to them. As a result of this uneven playing field, we felt reluctantly forced to open within the guidelines in order to protect our market share.

Prior to the current test, we were running on a limited basis, within the four-people law. Now it was not only important to protect our market share from other retailers open on Sunday, but we were now getting increased competition from the U.S. and our neighbouring provinces, as well. In addition and very importantly, there was increased consumer dem and for us to open on Sunday. Unfortunately, we were not able to provide all of our services or, indeed, anything like the customer service level we would like in order to maintain our reputation.

With only three staff and a manager, it is impossible to provide an adequate level of service. Significantly more people would be required to do this. Inadequate staffing, only fou r, and no provision under the law for any security personnel resulted in high levels of customer theft.

June 2, 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 61 As a result of the above problems, we were pleased when the Honourable Eric Stefanson and his colleagues decided to allow the current test. It was not an easy decision nor necessarily a popular decision with all people, as various opinions on the subject exist. We appreciate the stand they have taken and the leadership they have shown and feel confident that the consumer and marketplace will demonstrate its desire.

Interestingly, early results from the period of November 29, 19 92 to February 27, 19 93, in six of the seven stores here in Winnipeg show an increase of 43 percent in dollar sales on Sundays, compared to last year when we were operating with four people. Total sales for the same period over last year are up only 12 percent, so as you can see, a large percentage of this increase came from the fact that we were open on Sunday. Increased retail staff hours for Sunday during the same period were up 16 8 percent. In other words, we increased significantly the number of staff available on the floor.

The total retail staff hours during this period of time were up 5 percent, again indicating these were real increases in staff hours, and that we did not jus t transfer hours from Saturday to Sunday, or Monday to Sunday. Customer traffic during this period was up 44 percent for Sundays only, compared to 8 percent for the same total period. To indicate how popular Sunday shopping was, the customers per hour that we processed through our six stores in Winnipeg on a weekday basis was 685 customers per hour. In the five hours on Sunday, we are averaging 837 customers per hour.

So very obviously, people are demonstrating a desire and a need or willingness to shop on Sunday. In addition to those statistics, we also did some surveys in our own stores. We passed out a very simple ballot. It simply says: Sunday shopping, are you in favour of Sunday shopping in the province of Manitoba, yes or no? There were 10 ,500 replies that came in: yes, 55 percent; no, 45 percent. In addition to that, Canadian Tire Corporation, along with the Angus Reid people, did a survey throughout all of Manitoba where they surveyed 600 people across Manitoba.

They did this in all regions of Manitoba, not jus t strictly within the city, and they did it in a comparison as to how the population is split. Again, the results from that survey-and this is talking specifically about Canadian Tire Stores, I must admit. Should Canadian Tire Stores be allowed to open on Sunday?

This is across Manitoba, and 51 percent of the people said yes; 42 percent, no; and the others were undecided. * (21 40) When the CTC customers were surveyed or the CT customers that were asked by Angus Reid in this survey-should Canadian Tire Stores be allowed to open on Sunday?-55 percent said yes; 42 percent, no; and 3 percent, undecided. You will notice the 55 percent tracks exactly with the same 1 0,000 survey that we did in our particular stores. Residents of Winnipeg who were a part of this survey: Shou ld we be allo wed to open on Sunday?-61 percent, yes; 33 percent, no; and the balance, undecided.

Rural Manitoba, as one would expect, and as we are hearing today, a considerable difference-40 percent, yes; 55 percent, no; and 5 percent, undecided. There are many argumen ts against Sunday shopping. Some are the ability of the small retail stores to compete; protection of em ployee rights; quality-of-life considerations from either a religious or family point of view. Let us examine some of these a little more closely. The ability of small rural or urban retail stores to compete, this is a concern, we agree.

But the facts are that they are already faced with this competition on price and selection on every other day of the week. Some do very well. They have found their niche, and their position is secure by providing personal service and convenience at fair prices. Many, in fact, flourish. Interestingly, in Europe, the larger stores were forced to open to expand their hours to meet the competition from some of the smaller stores that were staying open 24 hours a day, seven days a week Today, we see a simila r exa mple with convenience stores like 7-Eieven that are also a highly successful operation.

On a recent radio broadcast in Winnipeg, a representative of one of the convenience operations said that they were unconcerned about competition from larger stores on Sunday, as their results in Alberta and B.C., which have had Sunday opening for some time, had been quite positive. Norman Leach, who, I believe, is here tonight from the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, was

62 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 recently quoted in a newspaper as saying: Sunday shopping introduced in November as a five-month experiment has not had the devastating effect that some rural me rchants feared as most stores in small centres have remained closed. This, in fact, appears to reinforce the statement ma de by the Honourable Eric Stefanson when introducing the Su nday shopping trial in the Legislature.

He quoted from a survey that 97 percent of rural Manitobans surveyed said that Sunday shopping would not change their shopping habits, and they will continue to do the same volume of their shopping in their hometown or they would spend even mor e on purchases from their hom etown merchants. Ninety-seven percent said that, again, demo nstrating the loyalty issue that was brought up here earlier. Jus t looking for a moment at the experience of Canadian Tire, each of the stores throughout Canada reports to Canadian Tire each month our sales and customer statistics, et cetera.

We get these back in a composite form only in percentages; we do not get absolute dollars back. Jus t to go through, roughly, the period of time during which this test was run. The stores in the city of Winnipeg in December 19 92 had sales increases of 20.9 percent, customer count increases of 21 percent. Those in rural Manitoba had increases in sales of 23 percent and customer count increases of 24 percent. In January, a similar pattern, Winnipeg was up 11. 5 percent, rural Manit oba 12 .3 percent. February, Winnipeg is up 7.7 percent, rural Man itoba 12 .6 percent. In March we start to see a change.

Winnipeg is up 8.2 percent, rural Manitoba 6.1 percent. In April-we had a fantastic month in April-Wi nnipeg is up 37 percent and rural Manitoba 27 percent. I think what you can see is that rural Manitoba has certainly not suffered any by the fact that we have been open on Sundays, because most of them have not been open on Sundays. They have managed to retain an increase of their sales and market share. (Mr. Chai rperson in the Chair) One thing that is often alluded to is that the large stores are strictly profit hungry, and that is why they want to exploit their staff by opening on Sundays. Not true.

Most retailers, in many cases, would prefer to have very restrictive, controlled store hours--no Sundays, no holidays, no evenings, no Wednesday afternoons, no exceptions, provided the same law applied to all retailers in our ma rket area. This would reduce staff, facilitate scheduling, improve profitability, at the expense, however, of customer service and customer convenience. On the contrary, there is a strong case that suggests opening Sunday might have a negative effect on profits. Our reasons are simple: We want to protect our market share and provide the consumer with what they want.

When I say, protect our market share, I am talking about protecting our market share not only today but in the future. As you all know, there is an influx into Canada from the big retailers in the United States. We have already seen Toys R Us come in, we have seen Office Depot come in. Home Depot have now announced that they are coming into Canada. Walmart might as well be in Canada; they have very strategically placed their stores in all of the border commu nities and, of course, are encouraging Canadians to go and shop south of the border.

As far as we are concerned, and I think if you read any of the newspapers, the Financial Post, et cetera, retailers are in a war, and not many of us are going to survive. The only ones that are going to survive are the ones that step up to the mark and provide the consumer with the prices, the selection and the services that they want. Protection of em ployee rights, this is an interesting subject. Certainly most would agree that em ployees have many rights which should be protected, and they are by law.

Interestingly, in Ontario, the province's law agai nst Sunday shopping was ruled unconstitutional by their Supreme Court. It was argued the law violates the freedoms of religion and conscience

section of the Charter of Rights. Likewise, the original Sunday shopping legislation was struck down by the cou rts of Manitoba, because it offended the Charter of Rights. Likewise, the original Sunday shopping legislation was struck down by the courts of Manitoba, because it offended the Charter of Rights providing a day of rest on religious grounds. In today's multicultural society, we have many Canadians with different religions, some of which worship the Sabbath on a day other than Sunday: Jewish religion on Saturday; the Moslems on Friday. Do we in fact protect their rights? Do they not have to work on their Sabbath?

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 63 Somebody mentioned earlier the Lord having said, six days shall thou work; on the seventh, thou shall rest. He did not indicate it was Sunday, however. The current laws in Manitoba, I believe, also protect the rights of employees. You are not allowed to have them work seven days in a row. Every seven days, they mus t at least have 24 hours of rest time. So the possibility, or the argument that em ployees are going to be asked or insisted or made to work seven days is absolutely ludicrous. That law has been on the books for many, many years.

However, when the test was im plemented throu gh an amendm ent to The Em ployment Standards Act, em ployees are em powered to refuse to work on Sundays. The amended legislation further protects the employees' rights in that it prohibits employers from discharging staff based solely on their refusal to work Sunday shifts or based on any employee efforts to enforce these rights as defined under the amendment. I can certainly tell you in our experience, we have had no difficulty whatever getting people to work on Sundays. We have more than we can handle, quite frankly.

If Sunday shopping is allowed to conti nue following the test and it is still deemed necessary to protect the rights of certain individuals not to work on Sundays by passing such a law, we can certainly live and abide by it. In today's society, for a variety of reasons other than religion or unem ployment, people are quite happy, even eager, to have the opportunity to work on a Sunday. Even the rights of the em ployer would be protected on the proposed legislation in that he is not forced to open on Sunday, but has a right to remain closed, i.e, let the market dictate.

Some individuals and organizations infer that, with the advent of Sunday shopping, em ployees would be forced to work seven days a week. We say this is absolute nonsense. Most full-time em ployees work five days a week. If they work the Sunday, they will still have two days off that week. Part-ti mers would work available hours, by their choice, again usually not more than five days a week, and that is reality. The qual ity-of-life considerations.

In today's multicultural, mu ltireligious society, many diverse points of view have to be taken into consideration in the way we live and worship, and these points of view change and evolve. It was not too many years ago when it was looked down upon if the lady of the house was out to work. She was expected to be home and look after the children. That was considered to be her role. Those times have changed. In my own instance, with my wife, her fa ther worked night shift from four at night till one o'clock in the morning six to five da ys a week. What opportunity did she have to see him?

She did not get home from school until after he had gone to work, and she was in bed by the time he got home. There was nobody making a big clamour at that time about the fact that her quality of life was suff ering. The 1990 Goldfarb study in Ontario showed over three-quarters of all respondents favoured Sunday shopping. Over three-qu arters of those who worked on Sunday fa voured Sunday shopping. Support is highest amongst the single parents, working women and those who work their regular hours.

A large majority indicated Sunday shopping does not interfere with their family activities. * (21 50) An overwhelming majority believe Sunday shop ping in Ontario exerted no negative or detrimental impact on their family, personal or religious life. Also, these respondents did not feel that Sunday shopping had negatively affected the quality of life within their communities. A full 90 percent said that they do not spend any less time with their families because of Sunday shopping. Quality of time is more important than quantity.

When Massachusetts was debating the blue laws relating to Sunday shopping back in 1982, the two most powerful forces initially opposed to the repeal of the Sunday closing laws were the Archdiocese of Boston, Massa chusetts, and the trade unions. In the latter stages of the debate, both the church and the union supported the abolition of Sunday closing laws. In a bulletin dated June 28, 1 982, by the AFL-CIO, the union stated strong opposition to the repeal of the blue laws.

However, less than a month later, on July 26, 19 82, following intense discussions, a me morandum of understanding regarding the repeal of Sunday blue laws for retail establishments was sig ned by union leaders, major reta il department stores and the Greater Boston Chamber of Comm erce.

64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 The memo rand um acknowl edge d that Massachusetts was suffe ring from the outflow of retail sales on Sunday due to residents crossing over state lines to shop in adjacent ju risdictions and that Massachu setts was adversely affected economically by its noncompetitive status. The memorandum also stated that it was evident from an analysis of the circumstance that this is an issue whose time has come.

The changing demographics, the increase in two-income families and the increase of women in the workforce has created a new climate in which residents fa vour Sunday store openings by two to one. Another bulletin issued by the AFL-CIO dated November 22nd, 1982, urged legislative memb ers to support a repeal of the blue law restrictions on Sunday retail sales. The bulletin stated that the working people of Massa chusetts desperately need the thousands of jobs which blue law repeal will bring to those who chose not to work on Sunday, needing the protection guaranteed by the bill.

The blue law was characterized as being archaic. An

article in the Pilot, which is the offi cial news paper of the Archdiocese of Boston , dated December 3, 19 82, in regard to Sunday shopping agreed that it is well-nigh time we dum ped a local custom that is both outmoded and injurious to the state economy. It was further argued that in light of all the exemp tions to the exis ting law, the current restrictions are confusing and contradictory and do very little to guarantee Sunday as a day of rest to religious observers.

Moreover, the church stated, retailers, labour unions and many religious-mi nded persons have changed their position, as society itself has changed, then who are we to fly in the face of those whom the blue laws were originally designed to please? The quality-of-life argument in today's society appears to many people as being hypocritical and selfish. It is all right for me to travel, eat out, expect medical attention, police and fire protection, go to the theatre, the symphony, watch TV, go to see the Jets or the Bombers, read the newspapers, but it is not all right for you to shop on Sunday.

To a large degree, to many people, shopping is an entertaining experience. In conclusion, there are many more arguments, both pro and con, that could be raised. In the final analysis, it is fair to say that there are opposing views on this subject and possibly always will be.

Our position is that the uneven playing field that exis ted with the cu rrent law and the unfair competition that results, with the competition now from all the U.S. states, particularly those adjacent to our border, together with many other provinces including our neighbours, open on Sunday, taking the money away from us and out of the province with the unreasonable inconvenience and lack of service caused by existing law both to consumer and retailer, the obvious dem onstrated growing public demand for reasonable, convenient opportunity to shop on Sundays, we would ask this committee to recommend repeal of the existing law, and allow those retailers who choose to open on Sunday with adequate staff to service their customers.

Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very mu ch, Mr. Emery. Mr. Storie: Thank you, Mr. Emery, for a very well thought out presentation. Just following up on your last comments, you have asked the committee, or you are recommen ding that we repeal existing Sunday shopping law and allow those who wish to remain open to open on Sundays. I am wondering whether, in light of the fact that Bill 23 is going to give muni cipalities the right to determine, whether you support Bill23. Mr. Emery: Yes, I believe I do. Even the original law allowed you to either open or not open, so you still had that choice.

You do not have to open, and I think it is probably in the bes t inter es ts of the muni cipalities, and we have heard from the speakers earlier here that there are very differing views in those municipalities, and I think therefore they should have that right to make up their own minds as to what course of action they wish to take. Mr. Storie: But in your presentation you say you are worried about the confusion the existing laws are creating, and the confusion the existing laws create with respect to which stores can be open and under what circumstances, and whether the law was even being followed.

I am wondering now whether, if the Canadian Tire store in Winnipeg remains open as a result of am u nici pal decision, and the Canadian Tire store in, say, Steinbach closes as a result of municipal decision, does that not create the same kind of confusion, the same kind of conflict?

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 65 Mr. Emery: I do not really see why it would, because, again, even during this test period the Canadian Tire in Steinbach has been closed and the Canadian Tires in Winnipeg have been open, and I am not aware of any confusion that has resulted from that. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, given that that is the circumstances that exist with the bill that was passed in 1987, then what is the problem ? Mr.

Emery: The problem , I think, there is the fact that that was a bill that was designed basically, I think, to allo w people that required me dical assistance and drugs, et cetera, to be able to get them, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. The only difficulty was that the drugstores took advantage of that situation and started selling everything other than drugs and medicines and therapeutic devices. As I said earlier, they were selling applicances, hardware, plumbing, electrical supplies and you name it.

They were circumventing in effect what the law was intended to do at that time, and for some reason or other, and I understand this was a mistake, they also were not subject to the four-person rule. We challenged that, or I should not say challenged it, we reported some of these things to the police department. The police department refused to act because they said the drugstores were not subject to that particular rule. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I agree that it did create some problems.

I am simply asking the question whether your desire to have things straightforward and a level playing field is going to be accomplished by this legislation. You have asked us to repeal this so that individual businesses get to decide, but that is not what the law will allow. The law will allow the mu nicipalities to decide. Mr. Emery: But then the businesses within those municipalities still have that opportunity, do they not? Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, we still have the patchwork quilt then. Mr. Emery: I do not see where the patchwork quilt happens there.

I mean, even within the city of Winnipeg here, there is a possibility that certain Canadian Tire stores could make the decision not to be open if they think that is in their best interest. We have an example of the seven stores in Winnipeg. I me ntioned in my statistics and I indicated to you that collectively we had had quite a substantial increase. One of those stores out of the seven, in effect, experienced decreases in sales during the test period. Now the reason for that is, is the fact that during-he is in one of the smaller stores.

He could operate his store reasonably efficiently with four people, reasonably eff iciently, and yet he had no competition around him because none of the competition could open up under the four-employee basis. But, as soon as that was lifted, then this particular store tended to suffe r in sales volume because now he had more competition. He could make that decision, hey, this is not worth it anymore. You know, it is not worth me being open. *

(2200) Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, the theme of your presentation, I think, is fairly consistent, and that is, that in the retail business it is winner take all. I am wondering whether in your presentation you have considered the possible im pact, the potential impact, of this on independent stores in Winnipeg or in rural Manitoba that simply are never going to get to that level playing field that you are talking about. Are you concerned that your success in Canadian Tire may ultimately lead to the demise of businesses in the infrastructure in communities outside of, for example, the city of Winnipeg? Mr.

Emery: I do not think anyone likes to see anybody else go out of business. I mean, that is not-1 think we have got a little more humanitarian instinct in us than that. But, as we have seen over the years, the mom -and-pop stores, if I can use that term to refer to them, have been diminishing. They have been going downhill and, I am afraid, will continue to. As I said earlier, even we in Canadian Tire, as large as we are, are all independently owned stores. We do have the advantage, of course, of association with a larger company.

But I can tell you that, when we go to our conventions, one of the No. 1 things that we talk about is survival. What are we going to be doing now and in the future to counteract the likes of the Walmarts and the Home Hardwares, not the Home Hardwares, but the Home Depots and so on. It is a concern, and we have to be fighting to try and make sure that we survive into the next century. Mr. Storie: I guess, Mr. Chairperson, to Mr. Emery, that is what Mayor Krahn and Mr. Stewart and many other rural representatives who have expressed concerns about this issue are saying as well. I guess

66 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 they are asking for a maintenance of what they consider to be a level playing field; what turns out to be a Canadian Tire problem in that it is difficult to manage and operate a store of Canadian Tire size with four staff turns out to level the playing field for the small independents who do not have your purchasing power, who do not have your ma rketing ability. I am wondering what is wrong with trying to maintain that balance in a society that wants to have a vibrant rural economy, as well as an economy in the city of Winnipeg? Mr.

Emery: Well, I think if it were possible to build a fence around Manitoba, so to speak, and not have any external influences on the province, then I guess I could say, fine, because I can get along quite well, thank you very much, the way things are. But we cannot stop wha t is going on in Mi nneapolis or in Minnesota. We cannot stop what is going on in North Dakota. As I indicated to you with the numbers from Canadian Tire rural stores, they are showing a substantial increase in sales during this period of time.

One of the things I think contributed very directly to that was the devaluation of the Canadian dollar against the American dollar during that time frame. Mr. Storie: Perhaps you are making my point for me. You have men tione d that ther e was a substantial increase in sales in rural Manitoba. You have also acknowledged, for example, that the Canadian Tire store in Steinbach remains closed on Sunday. So it obviously has nothing necessarily to do with Sunday shopping, the increase in volume.

That then begs the question, if Canadian Tire in rural Manitoba can do quite well without opening on Sunday, given that certainly some people in rural Manitoba, many of the memb ers of the business community in rural Manitoba see potential harm, why are we rushing forward with this? Why the urgency that you sense? Also, Mr. Chairperson, if I may, given the fact that you reference in your brief that you are concerned about the draw on customers into other ju risdictions, given the change in the value of the Canadian dollar, given,l guess, the decline in cross-border shopping, is that still a legitimate concern?

Are we doing something in haste here based on a rationale that no longer exists? Mr. Emery: Well, there is no question in my mind that-and this is borne out with some of the statistics-the number of shopping trips to the United States has seriously declined over the last few months. That has, no doubt, helped us in terms of our business here and I think all businesses here in Manitoba. Again, we do not know how long that situation is going to last. I am not an economist, and I do not know when the trend could reverse. I have no idea.

At the same time, we have no idea what our friends in the United States might do to try to combat that. I mean, they are not going to sit back- Walmart did not build that great, big store south of the border there to service that particular community. It was put there to service Manitobans. They are going to come up with ways and means to try and continue to attract Manitobans to that store. There is jus t no question about it. I am saying we have to do whatever we have to do in order for us to survive. When I am using the term "us, "I am not talking Canadian Tire.

I am talking all of the retailers here in Manitoba. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, Mr. Emer y indicated earlier that he did not want to build, or if we could, I should say, build a wall around Manitoba, we might be able to maintain that balance and attempt, through legi slation like the ex isting Sunday shopping legislation, to main tain the economy in rural Manitoba, yet in his subsequent remarks, he comments on the fact that the value of the Canadian dollar, for exam ple, a su bstantial change, an increase in the value of our dollar would again drive people outside of Manitoba.

So we cannot build walls there either. There is no guarantee, in fact, that the Su nday shopping leg islation which may jeopardize-and certainly rural people believe it will jeopardize their opportunities. There is no guarantee that Sunday shopping is going to solve the problem you seek to solve, and I am asking the question of whether it is worth taking that risk. Mr.

Emery: Certainly, there is no question in my mind, and I am sure there is not in anybody's mind, I do not think having Sunday shopping is the answer to all of our prayers or is going to tip the balance in favour of Man itoba as opposed to North Dakota or any of those. All I am saying is, in order for us to compete against some of these newer retailers and the big retailers in the States who are operating seven days a week, if we do not have the same opportunity, then

June 2, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 67 we are going into battle with a blunt sword. That is all I am saying. If we want to compete with them, if we want to keep growing, then we need to have the same opportunity to compete as they have. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson and to Mr. Emery, I do not mean to be impertinent by this, but my question is, do you work on Sunday? Mr. Emery: Do I work on Sunday? If you are asking me, do I work on the retail floor on Sunday, the answer is no.

The reason for that is I am the owner of the business at this particular time, and my stage of my career has developed to the point where I have other em ployees who do that. Did I used to work on the floor? Yes, I did and I spent a lot of time on the floor. Will I work on Sunday if it becomes necessary? Yes, I will, because if it requires survival, I will be there. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I was quite sincere and I did not mean to be impertinent by asking that question.

I simply believe that Canadian Tire, and I am sure your independent store, is large enough to accomm odate your interests and your needs at this point in your life. Certainly for ma ny of the people whom the Ma nitoba Ch amb er represe nts, the small businesses, the family-run businesses, that is not the case. The pressure they are going to be under to open on Sunday, to compete, is going to require that they or their sons or their daughters or their grandchildren and more than likely they themselves are going to be there, not six days a week now, but seven.

I am wondering if, in your judgment, the balance of us doing this is so important that we need to put those people under that pressure. Mr. Emery: Well, I have some concern really about whether or not the pressure you are referring to is really there. Again, giving the commun ities the opportunity to make that decision on their own, and further, giving the independence within those commu nities the opportunity to decide whether they want to be open or closed on that particular day, is not forcing them to be open.

I question whether or not our gentlemen from Morden and Winkler-when asked about their shopping experiences in Winnipeg, they indicated that, well, they come in to visit relatives once in a while and when they are here, they might drop into a store. I mean, this is not exactly a mass of cars whipping up the highway here to shop in Winnipeg.

We also talk about, based on some other statistics that I have here from Stats Canada, even within Man itoba alrea dy : Winnip eg accounts for something like 64 percent of the provincial retail sales already; 91 percent of the department store sales already take place here in Winnipeg; 78 percent of the retail chain store sales take place in Winnipeg; 83 percent of the total supermarket store sales take place; and since I come under the category, I think, of general merchandise sales, only 38 percent of general merchandise sales take place in the city of Winnipeg. * (221 0) I mu st assume that the general merchants in these smaller communities are continuing to do quite well.

I would think that they do not have to open. I am quite sure that if I was in one of those smaller communities I would not be opening on Sunday because I do not think the competition requires me to open on Sunday. The competition in Winnipeg today and in the future is certainly going to require me to open on Sundays. Mr.

Storie: Just one final question: I guess the scope of your business may make it difficult for the managers and perhaps the independent owners of large businesses to appreciate how difficult this issue is, how not difficu lt, but how potentially damaging this issue is for small businesses in small communities outside of the city of Winnipeg. You men tioned in your commen ts that some 837 persons per hour circulate through your store. Mr. Emery: Through our stores. Mr. Storie: Your stores.

I would assume that, and probably maybe someone will present here tonight to tell me, how many regular customers the average small independent grocer has in rural Manitoba. My guess is that a few hundred are enough to ensure the survival of a small business so that it is not necessary to see a stream of people coming into the city of Winnipeg, that this is a war of attrition for small businesses, that the loss of one customer or two customers or a handful of customers over a period of time is enough to make this business put them in a position of difficulty.

I am wondering whether you are saying that there is nothing that can be done and that we should sort

68 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 2, 19 93 of abandon any attempt to do something to prevent that. Mr. Emery: I am sure there are people in this room who shop within the city of Winnipeg who do not necessarily shop at the least expensive place in town. I do that myself and I do it because that particular retailer that I go to provides something that the larger stores or larger centres cannot. That is oftentimes personal service, sometimes, I will not say better selection, but perhaps they have something unique that I might be looking for and so I would patronize those.

I would suggest that a lot of the stores in the rural communi ties have that opportunity to provide personal service. I cannot stand at the door and say, hi, Joe, gee, I have not seen you for a week, but that is the kind of service you can expect to get in the smaller communities and that kind of service you are willing to oftentimes pay a little more for. Po int of Order Mr. Penner: Mr. Chairperson, it appears to me that the honourable memb er for Flin Flon, Mr. Storie, is attempting to debate the issue instead of the normal line of questioning that would occur in committee.

I would ask you to remind the honourable member that this is not a debate, that this is a time for questioning the presenters and it should be done in as expeditious a manner as possible. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member did not have a point of order, but I would ask honourable members to be short with their questions and to the appropriate presenters. *** Mr. Storie: I appreciate the point the memb er for Emerson is making. I was not attempting to debate.

These are our first presenters, and I want to get as full a view of their perceptions of this legislation as I can, and certainly Canadian Tire is an im portant presenter. I have just one final question for this presenter. It deals with the sug gestion in your brief that the reason you are here and the reason Canadian Tire changed their mind on Sunday shopping was to protect their market share. Mr. Emery: That is right. Mr. Storie: All other things being equal, if Canadian Tire had not had to protect their share in this way, would you have been here supporting wide-open Sunday shopping? Mr.

Emery: I think I also pointed out in the brief that in many ways, we would be very pleased to have laws that prevented Sunday shopping and close the stores up on Wednesday afte rnoon, and all those things. I mean, why would I want to work any longer than I absolutely have to or have my people work any longer than I have to? I mean, running a store for seven days a week complicates the business of running a store tremendously, whether it is seven days or whether it is six days. For 12 hours a day, you have a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-ed4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf ed4.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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