Manitoba Hansard — 17 March 1960 (Sitting 46, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-46

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 46 March 17, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. s. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Thursday, March 17, 1960, 8:00P.M. ·committee of Supply: Capital Supply, Other Requirements ...••...•.••.. .•.••..••.• Grants, Loans, etc •• ........•..• . " .......•...• ..•.. .••. .•••.••..••• •••.••• Agricultural Credit Corporation ..•.• •..••.••..•• · •.•.•.•....••.••...•..••.. , • :Manitoba Development Fund .. •.. •••.•••. .•. •••.••.. •... ..• ; •.•...•.•• •.••. :Manitoba Hydro Electric Board ........... .•. .••.••..••.••.•••.•.....•.....• Budget Address, Mr. Roblin ... .•••..• ..• • ...•. ...•• •.••.•• . .•... •.•.. .. ••..••••• ·1695 1701 1707 1708 1709 1710

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, March 17th, 1960 MR. CHAIRMAN:

Schedule B--Qther Requirements (2}. MR •. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, before we pass on item 5, I would just make one comment on what the Minister of Public Works mentioned before. I think as al ready mentioned, evidently the House approved a certain amount to provide for a certain amount of roads to be constructed. Now this year, we were informed that some of these roads have not been built and some would be completed but out of these portions that were not built, were not on the program for this year.

However, we have a carry-over of last year and that carry over of the monies authorized, will not be used for those very roads authorized last year so we're using the monies authorized for different purposes than what they were authorized for. · That was one point. Secondly, I feel that the government should take some advice and I would like to suggest that they do not continue with this policy for more than two years, because when the next elec tion rolls around, I hope that we will have a Social Credit Government which will want to form its own policy on roads and wtll adopt a pay as you go policy. MR.

CAJI.[PBELL: Mr. Chairman, there are quite a few unanswered questions I think- and I'm not meaning in saying that, the financial situation, but things that were raised at the time the other estimates were under discussion--and I understood that the Honourable the Min ister said that he would bring the information in later on. Now I am sure that he meant at that time, on the Capital Supply Btll.

I don't know that the Honourable the Minister has the list of them there, but certainly there was some questions that I asked that I hoped he would give an answer to--he answered some of my queries I know, but he didn't comment as I had hoped he would, with regard to my calculations as to how much of the money that our last session, had provided this government, and ourselves of course, for three months, had provided the govern ment with, and that the new administration did not use up all that we had left for them, let alone the $33 million that was voted in the fall of 158.

Now I suppose that some of his officials took note of that calculation and have done some work on it and I would like to know if they found that to be correct or not. Then there were some specific questions that were asked by different ones of the mem bers--! wasn't the only one asking these questions.

I wanted to know after the Honourable the Minister had an opportunity of checking with his officials, what explanation they would give for the fact that the piece of road that was black topped between Piney and South Junction was in such bad shape so soon after being put down an:l the answer that the Honourable the Minister gave to that questions, as I remember it, Mr. Chairman, was that this was not a completed job. Well if it wasn't completed then I ask him, was I correct in my calculation that it had cost $2,000 a mile more than the part that I was comparing it with?

And certainly we got no ans wer to that part of the question because unless my figures are wrong that is a fact and surely if it is an uncompleted road that it wouldn't have cost a lot more than the other one. Then I was hoping that we would get some further information with regard to the Highway No. 4 east where some work was done, not all that was planned, but some, and where--my information is that it is not a good job and I emphasize those facts because this was the government that was going to greatly improve the road construction.

The Honourable the Minister said, as I remember his ;mswer, that they had carried along with the specifications that the previous administration had laid down. But that isn't what they were supposed to do; they were supposed to put in much better roads--much better construction, and once again the Minister came back and said that they are doing that.

Well quite frankly I'm not satisfied with those explanations and if it's all that the Minister has to say about it then of course, we have to accept that as the answer, but I think that if he does not give any more, that I should serve notice now that I'll be asking some of those questions in the Public Accounts Committee. Perhaps that's the right place to ask them where some of the experts in this work can be present and can give the technical answers, because I want to have the right explanation; if there is one, I'm anxious to get it.

Then I have been asking about famous question of the tests that were made in order to assess the suitabil ity of increased weights that were put into effect not a great while after this government took office. I still think that is one of the most amazing things that I ever came across, that this March 17th, 1960 Page 1695

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) •• administration that through a great many of its members and most prominent ones, had been criticizing our road program as being entirely inadequate and the roads themselves as being substandard, within a very short time after they were in office, greatly increased the weight limits on those same roads.

They must have really had a fixation on. that question and believe that the mere fact of this new administration being in office after all the big talk that they had made about better highways, that just a change of administration by itself in some magical way, would greatly improve the standard of those roads because they did positively nothing to them and yet over night and by the stroke of a pen, they became elig ible to carry greatly increased road weight limits. That's an amazing thing, Mr.

Chairman, one of the most amazing in my experience so I would like to get some further information be cause we did not get it last year, as to how the tests were conducted that demonstrated that those roads were capable of these greatly increased weights. I have a publication of the Province of Alberta here. There's been some reference made to tb.e propaganda that is put out by this government and there's certainly enough of it--I'm not commEnting on its quality, but its quantity certainly leaves nothing to be desired.

Then when my honourable friend, I think it was from the CCF Party, was talking about what he called the . propaganda bill, the Honourable the First Minister said that they were just pikers compared to the Province of Saskatchewan; you should see theirs--their propaganda sheets. Well, I've been reading it a long time and I think it is much more factual than the one that's put out by the Mani toba Government. I've been reading it for a long time; for years and years and years, and I have not found it to be anything like as politically biased as the one that this government puts out.

But the one I'm speaking of is the Province of Alberta. The publication is called "Within Our Borders"--l'm sure that many of the members have seen it. I would say it's not unlike the one from the Province of Saskatchewan; they're quite similar and both, I think, are interesting.

I think both of them are much better than the effort that's made by this government; much bet ter than the one that our government made, because I confess that some of my colleagues were anxious that we should institute that service that was later begun in a fairly small way and I, quite frankly, never liked spending the public's money to do any kind of a major job in that re gard, and I think it's just not good if you don't do a good job. And quite frankly I don't think 1hat the present service is worth anything like the money that's spent on it.

I don't know how much the Province of Saskatchewan pays for their publication; I don't know in the case of the Province of Alberta but the April the First issue of Alberta's "Within Our Borders" has a lead ing

article here, in fact the leading article: "Road Capacity is Measured Exactly". And the ar ticle says degrees of strain imposed by heavy trucks on Alberta's paved highways are being scientifically measured by the Alberta Department of Highways with the aid of a device known as the Binkelman Beam. I am not acquainted with the Binkelman Beam. Until this publication came to my desk, I had never heard of it before, but I'd be glad to furnish this

article to the Honourable the Minister if he wants it. Likely he has seen it. I wonder if he has seen it could he comment on this particular type of testing road capacity exactly or measure road capacity exactly? And perhaps all apropos 'to trying to find out, once again, what tests were made on these highways before the new policy was introduced. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there are several questions here that have not been answered and I suppose that the sponsors of the questions themselves should bring them up rather than I but I notice that the Minister was to--he answered to somebody that he would--where he'd been quot ing a highway where the subgrade was built during the years 149 and 150, very little if any selec tion of materials made in the construction of the subgrade and it was necessary to spend ap proximately $48,000 this past season to dig out these pockets and so on.

Someone asked what highway that was I gather because the note is here that there was an interjection and the Minis ter says, "I can get it for you; I haven't th(3�ghway number here; I'll get it for you". I'm not aware that that has been brought in and I, too, ·would like to know. It wasn't I who asked the question--(interjection)--The Honourable Member for Carillon said he asked that. There is another one where the Minister was answering, I think, it was my colleague on my left, and he said the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains had asked re--well I'll have to read the ques tion.

The Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains said, "Well, say on No. 5 that so many miles of blacktop had been completed, and No. 10 so many miles of blacktop had been completed, and so forth. If you could do that apparently to give the completions on those two projects". Page 1696 March 17th, 1960

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) .• And the Honourable Minister said, "I'll have to get that informa tion which we may have available under this item or perhaps later under the highway item". Now it's possible that that was given and that it escaped my notice. And the..J. again we have two or three more. Now if the Minister is in a position to give the answers to those questions, I'd be obliged if he would, because when thes� questions have been put on Hansard, or state ments made regarding roads like that, it is helpful to have the further information when. we are checking up. MR. THOMPSON: Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased to endeavour to make some answer to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition in connection with the questions which he has re peated which were asked earlier. In connection with the issue of the cost of the Piney to South Junction road No. 12 as compared to the cost of the Zhoda to Piney part of that highway--when my honourable friend tonight the Leader of the Opposition stated that his facts, I think he said may or may not have been incorrect--! must advise him that his figures on that comparison are incorrect.

The Zhoda to Piney road was constructed, the surface was constructed in two years '57-'58 and '58-159; the cost was $10,100 per mile of that work. The cost on that work which he speaks of is $10, 100 per mile. I think he gave a figure much less than that wb.en he was comparing this road with the Piney to South Junction road.

The cost of the Piney to South Junction work was $9,480 per mile, so that there was a difference in the work which was done between Zhoda and Piney, and Piney and South Junction; the former which was done as he said under the former administration and the later which was done under the present administration. The latter from Piney to South Junction was $620 per mile cheaper than the road which he men tioned in comparison.

Now I am told that this surface which I said was not a complete job, that is it wasn't a job which would be called permanent in its nature; it wouldn't serve for all time or for a great many years. It was made with a mix which was known as emulsified asphalt; it is a cold mix.

Now, when the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the seal-coating and wondered--and I must confess that when he mentioned it I wondered myself just why seal-coating would be placed on that particular surface--and I am advised that it is ,an accepted practice that this type of sur face must be seal-coated to prevent ravelling and it must be done as early as possible after completion of that type of surface.

So that the seal-coating is a normal and accepted procedure in completing that surface with the idea of knitting it together, preventing it from breaking up or stripping off in lumps as honourable members have charged has happened in certain parts of the road. The part which he mentioned the Zhoda to Piney strip I understand has been seal coated. This part will be seal-coated. Now the entire p0rtion from Zhoda to Piney to South Junction will require it is estimated in the course of time, will require a finished bituminous mat.

That will be placed on engineering advice whEm the density of the traffic is such as to warrant this move. In the meantime, u' is felt that the seal-coating on that road will serve to prevent the ravelling and it is recommended that iti be done. And it will be done this c�ming summer. I think, Mr. Chairman, that wlll answe t the Leader of the Opposition on that particu lar question. On Highway No. 4 east, I believe I gave a s'tatem ent :which is our answer to the matter on four east. I have nothing to add with what was said earlier.

I'd be quite happy if my hon ourable friend wishes to enquire at Public Accounts what went on there· and that probably is the best procedure. Respecting the test of road capacities as adopted by the Province of Alberta, I have no information on that.

I haven't seen the article; it hasn 't been brought to my attention, and I'll be unable to make any comment on what methods they are using in that province with respect to capacity tests. i Now the question of what highway was refe�red to when I mentioned the additional mon ies which were required because the original base iwas not properly formed--that is not form ed according to present day standards which are n<;JW in use. The highway was 83 from Swan River to Benito.

I think that is the particular road which--! didn't give the name of it; I didn't know it at the time, but that is the road--Swan River to Benito. Now with respect to five and ten I think the question was what proportion of five and ten were completed? And what were· not? MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, if I may, before the Honourable Minister gives March 17th, 1960 Page 1697

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) .. his answer, because that isn't quite what I was asking for, al though it's part of my question--! had asked several questions during the ·estimates. The Min ister was kind enough to give us a reply to one of them today in the matter of the carry-over in the appropriations of last year. He was good enough to tell us that the carry-over as of March 31st, 1960, will be $27 million. Well, I want to thank him for the answer to that question.

But there was another set of questions that I asked the Minister and that was in connection with the mileages he gave us of work completed in '59; and there were such mileages as 360 miles of grading and so forth; and I asked him for a breakdown of locations and degree of completion of these mileages. As an example I mentioned No. 5 between McCreary and Ste. Rose. Now there is a blacktop between McCreary and Ste. Rose but there are less lifts or layers of blacktopping on some portions of it and more on others, and what I was trying to arrive at, Mr.

Chairman, is whether the mileage given for blacktop--the 325 miles--includes single-layers, double-layers or completed blacktop? What does that 325 mile s represent? And that is the type of breakdown I asked for in that regard. Then I also asked the Honourable Minister that he give us informa tion as to the number of contracts that were let for this particular works in 157, '58 and '59; and I also asked him in reference to these same works the number of contracts that were let in 1959. What part of them were given to local firms and what portions of them to firms outside of the Province of Manitoba? MR.

THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the first question of the proportions of highways we have completed and what we meant when we said that so many miles of bitumin ous mat or gravelling was done, and the suggestion that I present that in detail--! think it's go ing beyond the call of duty to give the--1 have the list here of every road in the province and the project miles and the miles which were completed. I could present it for every piece of road in the province during the past year, but I don't think that--I am sure my honourable friend can look at it if he wishes.

I would be glad to have him examine it in detail, but I don't feel like taking the time of the House to give a detailed account. I mentioned, as you may recall the other evening I discussed the portions which were completed in comparison to the actual project in the bog area, in fact all the area right through to Flin Flon. I could do the same thing with every piece of road in the province but I would ask my honourable friend to come in to the office and examine this statement if he wishes. I feel that it would not be necessary to read the entire matter to the House at this time.

Now on the question of a number of contracts given in the 1959. I gave that information to the House the other evening. I read the different periods; it was divided for '58-'59 and '59- 160, and it was divided into what you might call three seasons of the year; and I gave those figures. Respecting the number of contracts which were given to contractors_ outside Mani toba and the number to contractors inside the province: I would say that 95% was given to con tractors in the province.

That's an estimate--! did have the figures in some cases of some of those numbers, there were about two out of 45 or out of 80 in some cases which were out of the province--! would say higher than 95% were awarded to contractors in Manitoba, Now, it has been brought to my attention, in connection with the question raised by the Honourable the Lead er of the Opposition about the

article which he has before him, that the Binkelman Beam test is described as a strain guage measurement of actual deflection of the pavement under a measur ed axle loading. This type of equipment has been in use by the Highways Branch of this prov ince for two or three years and these deflection measurements have been made in Manitoba on pavements throughout the province. It has been in use here. Now I think I've referred· to some of the questions raised by the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains.

I don't know whether he finds them satisfactory--he can say so later on--about the question of all the completions. I think when I gave the total mileages completed, that when I gave those, that I gave the propor tions which were uncompleted on the various processes of road work; that is, the grading and the gravelling, the bituminous mat, the sealing and so on; that I gave the average picture through out the province. And wh en I was referring to those miles I was quoting miles which have been completed--they have been completed--not miles which are not completed.

Now at this stage, while I am on my feet, I would like to me ntion the argument with which we closed at 5:30, because I was ·going to rise but the hour of 5:30 had arrived. But I do want to stress, as I endeavoured to do this afternoon, the importance of planning in advance; and that is exactly what we are doing when we ask for this vote. I think honourable members Page 1698 March 17th, 1960

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) •. will recall that when we first came into office we stated that that would be our policy. I can recall, in this House, that subject receiving quite extensive dis cussion. We said we would plan in advance, We are keeping our promises f.n this respect. My honourable friends opposite like to say that we do not keep our promises. When we ask for this vote, we are doing exactly as we promised we would do when we assumed office. We said we would plan in advance and it is essential and legal and vital to have the appropriation of these monies in order to plan in advance.

Now an example occurred to me, an example which I think has met with the approval of the House. Nobody has said anything against it. In the past few months we have negotiated eight contracts with respect to the Gypsumvi.ll e-Grand Rapids road. That wasn't in last year's program. That road has not had the endorsation of this House. That road is in the current program before you, which has just been brought before you.

It wasn't in the program last summer, We found it to be an emergency road r.:-.1d it should be constructed and we proceeded to construct it, because we had on hand sufficient carry-over with which we could commit the government; and we could proceed in the winter months to enter into these contracts and start on that road. Five contracts are well under way for clearing throughout that 115 miles. With out that carry-over we wouldn't have been able to start that work until now or tomorrow or the next day, 'till after these estimates are approved.

We wouldn't have been able to begin the work, but we were able to make that commitment because we had from the former year a suf.:. ficient carry-over; and so we have had five contracts of clearing which have given winter work to the people in the area and which has started the road program from Gypsumvtlle to Gram Rapids. We have called for tenders on the grading and gravelling of two of the three sections of the road. One tender will be opened tomorrow; the next in two or three days.

We co:lldn1t have done that without a carry-over, with which we had the legal authorization of this Assembly to enter into these contracts. And so I say to my honourable friend, when we ask for this carry over as you might call it, when we ask you to approve of this $20 million vote, we are putting into practice the policy which we said we would do. We are planning ahead. We find it neces sary to have this money in order to plan ahead, and we are carrying out policies such as the Grand Rapids road which we could not have done without this particular method of financing. MR. HRYHORCZlJK: Mr.

Chairman, tb.e Honourable Minister has given us a fairly reasonable answer, but probably I'm unreasonable myself and I don't accept it at its face value. He tells us now that this carry-over is necessary because they may find themselves in a posi tion where they have to make commitments. Well I'd ask him, is that true of the carry-over at the end of the fiscal year ending March 31st, 1959? Was that why that carry-over appeared there? Is that why this year's carry-over appears? Was that due to planning? And the reas on I'm skeptical, Mr.

Chairman, is simply that when we were in the Minister's estimates he had a lot to say about the weather, and he led me to believe that all those projects for which appropriations of last year could have been completed if the weather had permitted them to be completed, and if they had been completed he wouldn't have had this carry-over. So what is it? Was it the weather that made it impossible for them to spend the money, or was that planned f.n advance so that there would be a carry-over to meet such eventualities as he has mentioned?

Now I'm not going to press the point of getting the breakdown that I asked for because it will take up considerable time, and I wasn't asking for that information only to satisfy myself. I think that information would have been valuable to the other members of the committee. But I'm prepared to boil it down to one item so we won't take up the time of the committee, and I'll have at last a partial answer to my question. In the matter of blacktop--he gave us the mileage as 325 miles. Now all I ask him is to tell me what part of this 325 miles is allocated to No. 5 between McCreary and Ste. Rose.

If I have that answer I'll be satisfied, and I may accept the Honourable Minister's invitation to come to his office and check the rest of those figures. MR. THOMPSON: McCreary to Ste. Ease. I {lon't see that.particul�r portion of road in this statement. When was that done? MR. MOLGAT: It's usually listed Norgate to Ste. Rose but it varies under different appropriations depending on which one you're looking at, but in the original one in February- March 1958, which was presented when we were in office, it was marked as Norgate to Ste. Rose.

Then in the fall of 1958, when the previous Minister was discussing it, it was broken down--Norgate corner to north of Laurier; north of Laurier to Ochre River. Then in the summer March 17th, 1960 Page 1699

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) .• of 1959 it was made one lump sum Norgate to Ochre River. Now in this one that we're discussing at this time it is broken down again--Norgate to north of Laurier; north of Laurier to Ochre. But tt will be included in one of those. MR. THOMPSON: I have here a figure for Norgate north which is 17 miles. Is that the area? MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, that's the area, but there is blacktopping or hard surfacing on Norgate to McCreary which is approximately six miles; McCreary to Ste. Rose which is approximately 22 miles; and that would make a total of 28 miles.

I'm sure that you wouldn't be shortchanging yourself on purpose. MR. THOMPSON: No, I likely wouldn't do that. But the figure that I have--Norgate north 17--{)h, let me see, Yes, Ochre River south--would that tie in--Ochre River south would tie in on No. 5. MR. HRYHORCZUK: It would depend, Mr. Chairman, how far south you were going. MR. THOMPSON: Yes. There's two contracts. We have Ochre River south with eight miles completed out of 19.7 in the project; and the other one, Norgate north, with 17 miles com.:or pleted out of 18.5 in the project. · MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I have only a couple of further comments to make. The Honourable the Minister has come up with the answer that after all my figures were incor-, rect according to his information. I would like only to say that as far as the overall figures were concerned, he supplied them. If they're incorrect, the only thing that's wrong is my di.., vision because he supplied the figures, as I'm sure he knows.

He supplied them to the Honour., able Member for Emerson, and unless I divided wrongly the mileage--! took his figure that he supplied, so we can check that though at some future time and likely tomorrow morning would be the time. Now the Honourable· the Minister says that in the course of time that both of those, both the part that we built and the part that they built, will be still further improved. Well that is right of course. They will be in the course of time, but in the meantime, the road that we built is a good road for these times.

It's not of the standard of the Trans-:Canada high way; it's not of the standard of Highway 75 or Highway 10 or Highway No. 4 in some parts; it's not of that standard, of course, but it's a good road for the area, and the area is mighty glad to see it. The question that I still ask is, how come after we figure out the comparative costs, how come that with the great program of this government, that the part that they built didn't stand up anything like as well as tbe part we built; and we'll settle the question of comparative costs, perhaps tomorrow morning.

Now the Minister says that he has the information now abo·�t this road capacity tester, the Binkelman Beam, and he says that it's been in the department for son:e little time. So I am going to assume unless the Minister tells me I'm wrong, I'm going to assume that what Alberta does is right; that this measures the road capacity exactly.

I'm going to assume that it was used to test these roads before the great increases in weight limits were allowed, and seeing that the roads were proven by this test to be able to stand these very heavy weights, then I think I'm justified in asking the Honourable Minister to admit that the vast majority of the roads that we built were excellent roads, because they could carry those capacities. It's been proven scientifically that they can carry those capacities.

And then I would ask, not him, not him because he didn't make these exaggerated statements, but I would ask his Leader and his predecessor to apologize for the misinformation that they gave the people of Manitoba. So that'll settle the whole thing and make us all happy. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, the item we are now discussing, No. 2, I think should be divided in two. This should show what is going towards the roads as scheduled; and also another item for future commitments so that we'd know where we stood. :MZt. THOMPSON: I':m sorry, I just didn't get your reasening tOO re.

MR, FROESE: I tfti11.k the item as listed. the $20 million, should be shown in two sep arate statements; one for the roads as outlined already scheduled, and another for future com mitments. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman .• •... as a carry-over sh,ould be shown as a carry-over; MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 2--passed.

Section B. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, there's one road I'd like to discuss briefly with Page 1700 March 17th, 1960

(Mr. Froese, cont'd.) •• the Minister and that is the road that runs southeast from Gypsum villa to the farming area around Gypsumvllle, and also leading to the two Indian reserves of Ltttle Saskatchewan and Lake St. Martin. The road is not a highway.

It ma-:1 not be shown on the map, and i.s causing considerable concerti to the people in this area, not because of the road itself but because i.t's a very winding road and the brush along the side of the road is very dense; and I'm very much afraid that unless something is done to clear this brush on this wind ing road that we'll have a fatal traffic accident, because a motorist exercising extreme care could quite easily become involved in an accident on this road. It's very winding and you can be practically on top of a car before you realize it.

And I would just like to ask the Minister to . seriously consider having something done right away to have this brush removed, either by hand-brushing or by killing it with spray. I would like to see something done on it, as I say, as a safetyprecautton because we're going to lose a life or lives-.on this road unless something is done very shortly. There's a lot of Indians on the two Reserves up there looking for work and I think it would make an excellent works project for these people, and I would appreciate tt if he could give me any hope of some work being done on this particular road.

It W>uldn1t be an expensive project, but something should be done from a safety standpoint. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd be certainly glad to look into that, but l feel that this is a market road, is i.t not? I think it's a market road which actually should have been brought up under aids to unorganized territories. MR. .GUTTORMsON: Mr. Chairman, I'm aware of it. I overlooked the fact and I took this opportunity to raise the point. MR. CHAIRMAN:

Schedule B--$26,364; 750--passed;

Schedule C-Grants,etc. ,Iteln 1. MR. CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman, we 'll be getting .a breakdown of what i.s includedin the $4 1/4 million, I guess, will we? .. MR. HRYHORCZUK: While we're at that, :Mr. Chairman, will the Minister in charge tell us whether these particular items anticipate carry-overs too? HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Educatton)(Daupbin): Mr.

Chairman, the first item of $4, 225, 250 being asked for the University of Manitoba, capital items which are as follows: The new--I shouldn't say the new science building--new science building, the origi nal estimate on this building was $3,600,000 which was expected to be voted $1,200,000 in each of three years. The first two votes were made, and that included the vote a year ago. However, the cost of completing the project is greater than was originally estimated and this year, in order to complete the project, $2, 800, 000 is required. That is the first amount of that total sum.

The second item is to provide a Special Services Building which is an annex to the Arts Building. The estimated cost of this building is $1,100,000. In the 1959-1960 fiscal year we provided $450,000; Canada Council is providing $300,000; and we're now asking for $350,000, which is the balance of the amount required to complete the project. Another item in this total is for the old science building, which is to provide money for alterations to convert space which was formerly used for physics and chemistry to the uses of geology, botany and zoology.

The amount under that item is $200, 000; $250,000 is asked for new boUer and equipment for the heating plant. The old steam plant i.s hardly adequate to provide the heating requirements with the new building; on the campus. A new boiler will be added and the existing boilers will be converted from coal to gas or oil. The amount asked for on that item is $250,000. There's an item of $50,000 for acquisition of property for medical and dental expansion.

This is to begin the acquisition of certain properties which lie just adjacent to the medical and dental colleges to provide room for later expansion of these facilities •. As the committee knows, the other buildings in the vicinity of the two colleg-es are the Winnipeg General Hospi tal, the new Children's Hospital, and the Winnipeg School of Nursing.

There's an item of $400, 000 provided for a spiral ridge cyclotron; This is a piece of equipment which is used in the atomic research and the estimated cost of this equipment is $500,000, of which it .is ex pected that $100, 000, will be provided by the National Research Couiicl.i and the $400, 000 is being asked in our capital estimates for the balance of the cost. I might say to the committee that it is anticipated that the operating costs wUl come fro!Xl National Research Council grants.

There are some miscellaneous items, which �tal $175,250, made ;up of a garage and storage building, $30, 000; some work on the Home Economics Building, $18, 000; parking lots, $30, 000; residence renovations, that's residence at the university, $50, 000; certain conversions March 17th, 1960 Page 1701

(Mr. McLean, cont1d.) •• with the Manitoba Power Commission, the electrical supply, $15, 000; telephone facilities, $5, 000; roof repairs, $7, 000; machine shop maintenance, $19, 250; and steam line renovations, $1, 000. All of those items total $4, 225, 250; all expected to be spent in the fiscal year 1960-161 on those items that I have mentioned. The second item here, that of Brandon College, as the committee will remember, last year we informed the committee of our policy of capital assistance to Brandon College in its plans for expanding the college, and a grant of $500,000 was provided for.

That money has not all been used yet because the college is--the money is being paid out on progress payments as they proceed with their building. I would imagine that within a reasonable time it will all be used. And then the amount being asked for in this vote, $240,000, is the amount which we esti mate will be required in the fiscal year 1960-161 to match the grants, or I perhaps shouldn't use the word "match" because it's a grant of $2 for each $1 collected by Brandon College in its collection of fund� for building expansion, so that it's a two for one arrangement.

It is es timated that it will require $240, 000 from the Province of Manitoba in the fiscal year 1960-161 to match those monies, and it is anticipated that those monies will be spent during the year. Now that of course is subject to Brandon College Itself collecting its 1/3, and then of course, in turn, expending the funds on building construction. But we believe that they will be able to reach that objective during the fiscal year. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to ask the Minister a question or two in connection wlth--I'm not concerned too much with the method of having capital granted for the large items such as he mentioned, the heating and alterations to the old Science Building of, I think in one case, $200,000 and the other $250,000. But I would like to ask the Minister why it is that he listed a whole lot of smaller items there, and if I heard him correctly, including a garage and renovations to residence and the likes of that. Why is that done by capital in stead of out of current revenue?

It would seem to me that it would be more economical to have that done under current revenue rather than under capital. Is there a reason for that? MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm a real greenhorn in the matter of high finance and I'm really not always able to explain the distinction between capital expenditures and current expenditures. The university apparently for a number of years has been in--it has been the policy to include items of this sort in capital expenditures and they have come in with their re quest in this form.

I just make this comment that, of course, it does come to $175,000, which is in a sense is a figure almost the same as the alterations to the old Science Building, and perhaps in that sense, while they're smaller amounts in the individual items, they total an amount which is almost the same as this other.

I think, of course, that some of these items quite clearly could be considered capital items in the sense that, for example, a garage and storage building is something that will be used for a number of years, and even though the to tal cost is not too large, it is an item which is going to be used for a number of years and the capital cost of which, an ordinary accounting principle should be spread over a number of years. MR. PAULLEY: I can appreciate, Mr. Chairman, the situation of the Minister when it comes to high fimnce or low finance. Mine's usually low.

However, I think possibly I can get the answers to these questions in Public Accounts tomorrow. It's just that it seem a:l to me that we do, for instance in our estimates that we passed in connection with the university in the Main Supp�y, there was a non-recurring expenditures item of about $115,000, and while the Minister's explanation of these things in a sense being capital may be correct to some degree, there were some of them such small items, I thought that they should be handled • . . . . • How ever, as I say, Mr. Chairman, I think possibly we could get the answers to that in Public Accounts tomorrow.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, it certainly does my heart good to see that their responsible financial policies of this present government is driving even my honourable friend the Leader of the CCF Party to applaud the policy of the former government, which I certain ly--(interjection)--yes, it's the same policy, with this difference--and this is where I want to correct my honourable frien.d--that in the laet year that we had charge of the finances of this province, we had that whole amount of-$1,200, 000 as my honourable friend mentions, paid out of the current revenue.

Also the Agricultural Research Building. --(interJection}--Yes, yes, we had a surplus as well, and I'd recommend to my honourable friends that they g&t back to Page 1702 March 17th, 1960

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) •• that kind of a program. But the question that I arose to ask--in cidentally, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister of Education is very modest and says that he's just a greenhorn in finance. I think he's in a fair way to learn a lot about it with the pro gram in Education that he has in hand. I don't think he'll remain a greenhorn very long. The question I rose to ask though was the capital supply that we voted for the university in the 159 session I think was something well over $5 million. Has that all been spent or committed? MR. McLEAN: Well now, Mr.

Chairman, I didn't bring any figures on that but I would say "yes", it has been. Certainly it has been committed. It may not have all been spent but it has been committed, yes. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, are items 1 and 2 strictly grants, or is any portion of that out on loans? Are items 1 and 2 strictly grants, because it mentions grants and loans both. MR. McLEAN:. These are grants or guarantees on which the Province of Manitoba pays both the principiu and interest. In other words it's neither. They're not loans or advances in the sense that one ordinarily understands that term.

The committee wtll reo all that the Capi tal Bill provides that grants may be made or guarantees given; and in the case where the guar antee is given, it simply means that the university borrows the money but the full cost of ser vicing the borrowing, both principal and interest is paid by the Province of Manitoba. So that it does not in any way--it is not repaid to the province by the university. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask the Honourable Minister- ! know he told us that he's not up on financing and I don't even pretend to be, but I would like if he could, give me an answer.

I recall that during the previous two campaigns, I believe the government on the hustings, said that they would be able to increase services considerably without an increase in taxes, and from what my honourable leader said here a moment ago, that we had a million dollars, I believe it was, or slightly more than that of the same type of pro gram in our current estimates, leads me to com e to the conclusion that in order to provide at least part of the services that were promised, instead of levying taxes, increasing taxes, in order to balance their budget, the money is raised by way of capital, by way of loans.

Would that be why we find some of these capital items in these estimates? MR. McLEAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all--the Leader of the Opposition has referred to $1 million or some figure of that nature being in the current estimates previously and I don't doubt that; but I would remind you that you also had a capital bill and had a sub stantial sum of money in that. However, that's a-- MR. CAMPBELL: Not for the university. I think, Mr. Chairman, I think we paid all of it out of current-- MR. McLEAN: Paid all cash?

Well, of course, the previous administration wasn't providing very much money to the university for capital expenditures and I can well understand how it would all be in the current account. MR. CAMPBELL:· It probably wasn't much, Mr. Chairman, bJ.t it was something over $5 million. MR. McLEAN: Now, I do not think that there is any essential difference in the policy that is being followed now from that which was followed previously that capital expenditures for the university were provided previously, and we're doing so in the same fashion.

Except, of course, that we have provided somewhat larger amounts, both last year and this year for capi tal expenditures. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well, Mr. Chairman, isn't this item of $240,000 for the Brandon College--isn't that a form of a grant? MR. McLEAN: Pardon? MR. HRYHORCZUK: Isn't that a grant, that $240, 000? It's classified as a grant isn't it? You're giving them a grant aren't you of that amount? MR. McLEAN: Yes. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well, grants aren't generally put into capital account, are they? MR. McLEAN: But this is a grant for an expenditure of a capital nature, the provision of a building or buildings.

MR. CHAIRMAN: (1), passed; 2, passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, under Item 2, I notice that there's no item this year March 17th, 1960 Page 1703

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) .. for the other affiliated colleges of the university. Are there no re quests from any of them for construction? MR. McLEAN: No, Mr. Chairman, no requests beyond what was provided for in the Capital Estimates of last year and the money that was provided will be, as far as the informa tion we have now is concerned for the coming fiscal year, the amount that was voted previously will be suff icient to meet that request. MR. MOLGAT: Mr._ Chairman, I understand that the arrangement with Brandon is that for every dollar that they put up the government will put up $2 on construction.

Is that the same formula as was used for the other four colleges that obtained capital grants from the government in last year's estimates? MR: McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, the formula for the denominational colleges is a formu la of 25% of the construction costs. Now there's some slight conditions attached to that, but that's a handy way of referring to it as 25% of the expenditures.

With respect to Brandon Col lege, it being a non-denominational college virtually in the same position as the University of Manitoba insofar as the governme nt of Manitoba is concerned, the formula there is a formula relating only to Brandon College. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, may I direct a question to the Minister? Is the Provincial Governme nt Seed Enterprise Company known as the McKenzie Seed Company, are they still contributing to the Brandon College? MR. McLEAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, although that doesn't come under the Capital Bill.

The income from the McKenzie Seed Company goes into the current operating account of Bran don Cqllege and is really an internal matter with them. The committee will remember that when the current estimates were before the House, we had an item of a grarit by the province for current operating account. Now, before they arrive at the figure that they require from us; they of course, have taken into account the money that they receive from the McKenzie Foundation. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, a supplementary question.

Has the Minister any idea what was the contribution, say any year, last year, either the fiscal or the calendar year? MR. McLEAN: For the last college year, $14,000. MR. CHAIRMAN; Item 2, passed; Item 3. MR. USSAMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would first of all like to express the gratitude of every citizen of my constituimcy for the very generous recognition this government is making towards Brandon College, and to be perfectly fair, I should pass also some thanks to the pre vious administration.

When I first entered this House the annual operational grant was $22,500, and in their second last year of office this was raised to $50,000 and the following year it was subsequently to $90,000. Because now public monies are going into Brandon Col lege, I thought the members might like to have a very brief bit of history. I made available to the members some time ago a special edition of the Brandon Sun in celebration of their Sixtieth Anniversary, and I have some further copies if members would be interested.

It gives the historical run-down and the proposed new plant, and if members would like further copies I'd be very pleased to supply them. I think it is only right that Brandon College should be given recognition and assistance because it is a very great help to western Manitoba and of great value. Over the years the rural children have always used Brandon College in excess of boys and girls from Brandon itself. The average attendance has been 60% from out-of-town and about 40% from the City of Brandon. Presently there are enrolled--the total enrolment in arts and science and teacher training total 498 pupils.

If you include the music department, we then arrive at a total of 754. The academic record of the college, in my opinion, is excellent. While the arts and science students only roughly equate to about 5% of the total enrolment of the Manitoba university, over the past decade the students from Brandon College have taken about 40% of the gold medals available during that time for the university, so you can get some idea from that of the academic standards.

Now no one would doubt the cUltural and educational value of the college to Brandon, but I woUld like to remind the members that there is a very great economic value to western Mani toba in the college. The annual budget now is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $400, 000. If we had an industry of that size, of which we have several of course larger but we wouldn't sneeze at an industry even of that size, but I woUld suggest to you that the college economically Page 1704 March 17th, 1960

(Mr. Lissaman, cont'd.) .• represents a far better proposition because an industry would have to buy a considerable amount of its raw materials out-of-town and would leave a smaller portion for local circulation. Here, almost the entire amount is being. spent within the area for services and supplies. Now a few years ago we realized that with the terrific expansion coming in the fields of higher education, that the college would elther have to expand or die.

In our search for funds, as to how we could raise money to build new buildings, the first thought was of Canada Council, and we found that roughly $100,000 was available from that source. Subsequently, the Provincial Government, as you have heard the Minister inform you, came in for an unconditional offer of $500,000. And then after we started our public drive for funds, the government very generously agreed to match $2. 00 for every dollar that was raised.

I am happy to inform you that in that drive we are well over the half-way mark now, and since we have a period of five years in which to raise this money, I believe that we will reach the ultimate goal which will make possible the plan as shown in this paper . • • . • • . . . • . • • . • • . . • • . (continued on next page. ) March .1'l;th, 1960 Page 1705

MR . CHAffiMAN: Item 3 •.... MR . CAMPBELL : Mr . Chairman, I presume that the Minister concerned intends to give us so me detail on this. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health & Public Welfare) (Gimli): Well, the fin ancial picture in the Health Department is always so clear-cut, Mr. Chairman, I thought there wouldn't be any questions this year. This one million four is very simple. Every year , as you know, the Federal Government allots a certain amount of money to the provinces for hospital construction , and as near as the federal health grant people here can determine, this is on a population basis .

For the coming year the vote for hospital construction for this province of federal money available is $880,195 and the Federal Government revotes�h:t. we are not able to use in the previous year. If we don't use all the money they re vote it and make an amount available to us which the province must match in hospital construction. Last year, you will recall, we voted $610 ,0 00 of this money towards hospital construction. It was up to a total of arotmd nine hundred and something but there was $315 ,0 00 we held back for our own mental hospitals construction and the Rec. Hall at Selkirk .

We have spent, of last ye ar's appropriation, approximately in the seven gr eight months since the last session, around $515, 000 of the six ten we voted. We have a carry-over in the Federal revote this year of $405,000. Their grant of 880 makes a total of one million two , minus the amount of money of $315 ,0 00 we take out of that towards our own mental hospitals, leaves an amount of $970, 000 of our money which we must make available in order to claim that Ottawa money .

So this was rounded out and $970, 000 really represents the total possible grants available for general hospital construction and reno vation in the coming year . We appropriated $500 , 000 towards elderly persons housing construction for the coming year and I can clear this with members .

Last year we voted $375 ,0 00; we had $1 00, 000 carry over which gave us $475 ,0 00; we have expended of that amount , $1 25,000; we have available from last year 's vote , $350 ,0 00 ; but we want to add an other $500, 000 this year because I would tell the honourable members my listing here shows that under construction at the present time we have a total of 256 beds . This is largely hostel construction .

We have , both in hostel and el derly persons housing units , enquiries where applications have been received, a total of 402 beds for around estimated provincial costs of around $400, 000; and anticipated projects of an other 400 which I have listed he re . We feel there's a great need for this type of accommodation throughout our rural communities and in the Greater Winnipeg area in order to keep our elderly people who are best maintained in domiciliary accommoda tion . And we , as I announced previous ly, are giving this a great deal of emphasis.

We think it will go a long way towards helping us with our hospital plan in the rapidly ageing population . These are really the two large items - this is what this appropriation is made up of -- this $1,4 70,000. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, last year we appropriated $5 00,0 00. I'm disappointed at the small amount we spent, but I have to agree with the Minister that it takes time to get these pfojects started. I am interested in -- the Minister says that there are about 400 -- as !l isten ed, about 400 beds in construction or planned and another 400 applications .

I would like very much to hear some list of what is either being done or what has been approved, because I did see a list in one of the newspapers a couple of weeks ago and I was struck by the fact that the list was almost exclusively for areas outside of Greater Winnipeg.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that they are not needed there, but it is also true that a very large percentage of our old people tend to live in the urban centres in Winnipeg and I suppose in Brandon as well, possibly Portage or Dauphin, and I was struck by the fact that of the list I saw , and it may not have been a complete list, there was the complete absence of projects listed in Winnipeg, Brandon and so on.

Now it may be that these projects are much more expensive because of the cost of land and other prob lems such as th is , but I would like to hear from the Minister in some detail as to what projects have been begun; what projects have been approved; and what applications there are, for example, to get some idea of what is going to be done . MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, I can give the honourable member a complete listing here. As I say, the projects under construction are , at the present time , totalling a total of $208 , 000.

These are approved and some grants have been made to some of these: the Fair view Home in Brandon, 134 beds; Rosenort, Steinbach , 64; Grunthal, 26; Greenland Home at Ste . Anne , 12. Then we have where applications have been received and where we have been in Page 1706 March 17th, 1960

(Mr . Johnson (Gimli) cont'd.) ••• contact and working with the group, 260 of these are in the Greater Winnipeg area containing both -- two of the largest here are for elderly persons' hous ing units , for instance the United Chur ch, we're working with them on a project. There's one at Swan River planning on 50 beds ; 60 beds at Cosmopolitan Club, Winnipeg; Altona, planning on 50; Tabor Home , Mord en, planning on expansion; Canadian Legion in Winnipeg have contact ed us; St. Philips Anglican Church, Norwood, 21. That comes to around $400, 000 in provin0ial expenditure -- just those 400 beds roughly.

Our anticipated projects are Carman, Dauphin, Flin Flon, Hamiota, Russell, Roblin, Souris, Greater Winnipeg, quite a large number, 120; another 50 anticipated in the St. Boniface area; making a total of another 40 0. And I felt with the total here of this anticipated outlay that half a million dollars appropriation this year would probably see us through . MR. ORLIKOW: These individual units , are they hostel types ? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Most of them in the rural areas, I can inform my honourable membe r, are hostel types but Morden is about the only one that is building the housing type.

In the Greater Winnipeg area there's 30 units for couples for instance in one project; 50 units for singles -- more single units now as the honourable member probably knows -- plus an 80 bed hostel. One other association is applying for 30 units for couples; another one 16 :units for singles; another church group, six units for couples; nine units for singles; so it's pretty well broken down 50-50 between the ho stel type of accommodation and the housing type of accom modation in the Greater Winnipeg area.

But there is a tendency in rural areas for more of the hostel type of accommodation in these projects so fa1· submitted, MR. ORLIKOW: There's just one more question, Approximately how many pe0ple would these projects , which are planned, accommodate? MR. JOHNSON: 1, 040. . MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone) : Mr . Chairman, just as a point of interest, is it a fact that the same grants that are available for elderly persons' housing are also available "for nursing homes ? The same grant structu re ? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): In regard to the Elderly Persons' Housing Act , I passed a little pamphlet around.

Where the housing unit is developed, one-third of the cost comes from -- we give a grant of $1, 667 for one unit. For the hostel type of accommodation, the grant is $1, 200 per hostel unit. MR . CH AIRMAN:

Schedule C, $5 ,9 35, 250 -- passed.

Schedule D, Man itoba Agricul- tural Credit Corporation -- passed. . MR. CAMPBEL L: I would like some information on this one, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure all of us know the purpose , but are we going to have a statement as to how the loans are pro gressing? And whether it's anticipated that all of this money will be paid out before we meet again. MR. ROBLIN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that I can't give a guarantee that the amounts of money in both these items will be paid out . That will depend on the demand, but I imagine that we will use all of the $6 million on the agricultural credit this year.

As my honour able frie:nd knows , the demand is still running quite heavily and I think our appraisers will be able to dis pose of this amount of money without much trouble. MR. CAMPBELL: Well it's really the case though , isn't it, of the selected demand; because I think the demand has been a great deal greater than the supply of money after the loans have been processed, so isn't it probably a fact that the checking of them has been so careful up to date that a comparatively small amount of money has gone out in comparison to the applications that have been received. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I understood when we were on the agricultural es timates that there would be an annual report of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Act laid on our desks , or an interim report, during this session. Are we going to get it, or will there be one? HON . GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): I laid on the table the report to March 31 st. MR. SHOEMAKER: Were there any loans made prior to that at all though . MR . HUTTON : No . MR. SHOEMAKER: We will not be receiving a further report at this time ? March 17th, 19.60. Page 1707

MR. HUTTON: That is correct . I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that there are enough applications on file at the present time to ensure the disbursement of the amount of money that we are asking for. It is anticipated that to the 31 st of March we will have disburs ed or approved -- at least approved -- $4 million worth of loans and we are anticipating dis bursing 50% more this coming year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Manitoba Development Fund $4 ,0 00, 000 . MR. CAMPBELL: ••••. on this one be forthcoming , Mr. Chairman? MR. ROBLIN: The same situation applies here, Mr. Chairman. We don't know.

The demand situation isn't just the same as it is under the agricultural, but the best estimate that we can get from the fund is that they will be able to profitably employ this amount of liD ney. MR. CAMPBELL: I have not been too close to this and I do not consider myself to be as well acquainted with it as the earlier item, but my impression is, and I have nothing more to go on than just an impression, my impression is that there's not the same degree of selec tion applied in this case as in the former one -- That's an impression. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it's a false impression. MR.

CAMPBELL: Does my honourable friend think that there is equally great selection in the case of this one? Would there be any figures that could be produced, Mr. Chairman, that would show the ratio of accepted applications to the number of applications that have come in, that would rather confirm my honourable friend's statement. My guess is that if we had such figures that they would confirm my impression. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the standards are rigid and the requirements fo r security and for the amount of money to be provided by the people going into the business, et cetera, are pretty strict.

The board examines them with great care and I would say that the standards and the strictness of awarding credit is fully up to -- certainly any practice in this field. It's hard to compare an agricultural loan program with an industrial loan program. They are different. Our standards are just as high, or the fund's standards are just as high and just as strictly administered. The Honourable Leader of the (pp osition may find in his .files a return which I tabled to an order of the House which does set forth the number of appli cations and the number of those that have been accepted. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, have you a set percentage that the applicant must put in to the business -- of the total investment? MR. EVANS: When they say "we", the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains un doubtedly means the Board, because they govern the conditions under which the credit is let. Yes, there is. It's substantial. My impression is that it's in the neighbourhood of a third. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Is that a set rate, or does it vary? MR. EVANS: It varies somewhat -- in that neighbourhood. MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr. Chairman, •••.•• has been given out to date, or will be given to date? No idea? MR.

EVANS: None at all. This is provisions from last year. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr . Chairman, the Honourable the Minister mentioned that this return was :made . Unfortunately, I couldn't find it wren I was trying to do so . I would like to know if the Honour able the Minister is able to give us an approximation of the percentage of accepted applica.tions to the total number of applications. MR. EVANS: Mr . Chairman, I haven't those records with me . I had thought this had been fully dealt with in the current estimates and with the return that had been tabled. I am sorry I haven't my copy with me either. MR.

CAMPBELL: It's probably too soon , Mr. Chairman, anyway, to make any con sidered assessment of the operation of either of these Acts and I'll try and remember to ask him next year. MR. EV ANS: You will probably remember. MR. GRAY: Mr . Chairman, this proposition was created for the purpose of helping small business people who cannot, on account of their financial position, satisfy any private bank to lend him money to establish the goods . If the regulations are very rigid, which means that you may require almost the same security as a bank, then the purpose of this here is en tirely killed. MR. CHAIRMAN:

Schedule D. $10, 000 ,0 00 -- passed.

Schedule E, Manitoba Page 1708 March 17th, 1960

(Mr. Chairman, cont'd.) ••• Hydro-Electric Board. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, in connection with this one, I do not expect the Hon O'IIra.ble the Minister to know all of the details of a project of this kind. I know that it's sometime in the future as far as completion is concerned, and I expect that in addition to the road, a lot of preliminary work had to be done and even construction undertaken that is out of ratio to the early horsepower·produced. But would the Minister tell us, as a point of very great interest, what is the ultiinate capil.city of this particular plant?

I expect it's not going to be all developed at the one time, but the ultimate capacity? HON . J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities) (The Pas): As I recall it, I don't believe , but it's 448,0 00 horsepower, I believe it is -- 328 ,0 00 kilowatts. I could give the committee a breakdown of these figures if they would care to have it. The authorization is broken down into the northern power system and the southern power system; and of the southern power system, $6, 271, 500 is for the completion of Selkirk; $120, 530,0 00 is for generation at Grand Rapids over a five year period • . MR .

CAMPBELL: Could I have that figure again, Mr. Chairman? MR . CARROLL: $120,5 30 ,0 00 .

The total for new generation in the southern system, $126,8 01, 500 plus another item of $1,358, 350 which includes some reconstruction {)D. existing piants in addition to new facilities at Brandon and so on, without increasing the generating cap acity, but new equipment which results from the greater capacity and larger loads that are being carried and so on. i'or transmission, this is related to new generating stations, $8.il78,560; new terminal stations, $6, 240,'300; communications and supervisory, $598,2 20; rela y and meter ing, $56,0 50 ; maintenance and construction, $2,100; transportation, $85, 000; miscellaneous, $617,0 00.

In couection with the authorization for the northern system-- Kelsey, $5,8 80,000; Ke1sey transmission between Thompson and Kelsey is $290, 000; making a total of $150, ooo.& oo. That's broken down over the five year period. The requirements are estimated to be $25 million during the '60-61 years; $27 million, 161-62; $39 million in '62-63; $40 million in '63-64; and $19 million in '64-65. Those are the approximate figures. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister, what is the power supply situation at the present time in this province? MR. CARROLL: Well, I can't give you the exact - o h .

I could give you the exact figures too, but what you require is, is it adequate for our needs at the present time? Yes it is quite adequate. MR. CAMPBELL: That's a very interesting statement that the Minister gave and I th:mk him for it. I presume that there is some carry-o-ver as well, because those figures, I thmk. add up to more than the $150 .mi1lion that 's being voted. Is there •••• MR. CARROLL: Well the actual addition of those figures is $150.8 00 ,!0 0, - (lnterje.e tion) -- Yes, there was a �rry-over from the previous authorization of $920�1100, MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, from last year then at that time we voted $17 million, we were carrying over from the previous unused $14 million nine, and I thillk that the Minister took in a depreciation reserve of $475,000; that was a total of $32 ,375, 000 available for last year. All of that has been used except for $20,0 00 . Is that correct? MR. CARROLL: No , I'm sorry, it's $920, 000. MR. MOLGAT: $920,{)00? MR. CARROLL: Yes, $920. 000. MR. CHAIRMAN:

Schedule E, $150,0 00,0 00 -- passed. MR. ROBLIN: lm ove the Committee rise, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee rise and report . Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to rep&rt the same now and ask leave to sit again. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews)� Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable the Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of. the committee be reoeived. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared tbe JIDt ion carried. · MR. ROBLJN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Roll.ourable M nister of In dustry and Commerce, that the resolutions reported from the Oo:mmiitee ef S'llpply be now read a secoud time and concurred in. Mr. Speaker put the que stion. March 17tb., 1960 Page 1709

1\IIR. CLERK: Capital Supply -- 1. Resolved there be granted to Her Majesty for capital expenditures $15, 975 ,0 00 for Utilities Requirements. 2. Resolved there be granted to Her Maje sty for capital expenditures $26 ,3 64, 750 for Other Requirements -- provincial buildings , highways . 3. Resolved there be granted to Her Majesty for capital expenditures $5 ,9 35, 250 Grants. 4. Resolved there be granted to Her Maje sty for capital expenditures $10 million , The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation and Manitoba Development Fund. 5.

Resolved there be granted to Her Majesty for capital expenditures $150 milli on , The Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board. MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, I thought last October that waiting for the time to arrive when my son was to be born was a rather trying and anxious occasion, but I must confess that I've had somewhat the same feelings for the last two days when it comes to getting to the point where I would be able to move the motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Ways and Means. The text of Mr . Roblin's address, with pertinent tables and charts, is printed on next and following pages .

Additions in Mr . Roblin's Budget Speech. At the end of .the second paragraph on Page 3, Mr. Roblin added: "And I would like to underline the importance of this development for the whole community." On Page 35, second line, last paragraph, Mr . Roblin added after the words, •well qualified sources": "and let me hasten to say that these well qualified sources have nothing to do with the investment industry, and come from a source which I think would gratify all members if I were at liberty to disclose it ." On Page 40 at the end of the first paragraph, Mr .

Roblin added: "And I insert that remark Sir, because I notice that in the budget of other provinces, they are including higher figures for their share of these tax distributions than that indicated by the Federal Govern ment. That has been done in provinces to the west of here, but we are not doing it, we are basing ourselves on the figures that Ottawa has given to us ." On Page 43 just before last paragraph, Mr. Roblin added these words: "And it is with those words Sir, that I conclude and now move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Comlilerce, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House reso lve itself into committee to consider Ways and Means of Raising the supply to be granted to Her Majesty ." Mr . Speaker presented the motion. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, that the debate be adjourned. ' Mr . Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. MR. ROBLIN: Before I move the adjourrurient, may I just remind members that the time of the meeting of the Public Accounts Committee is 10:00 o'clock tomorrow morning, not 8: 00 as shown on the list.

I beg to move , Mr . Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce , that the House do nowadjourn. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the House adjourned until 2:30 Friday afternoon. Page 1710 March 17th, 1960

MA NITOBA BUDGET AND ECONOMIC REVIEW .. 19 60 � .. ... FOR CONTINUING DEVELOPMENT .. . �\ !� : . - �� l�l�t�,'.

Introduction THE U:ONCJ« TODAY Agricultural · ReSOIU'C88 Power and COIIIIIUDications DeYelopa.ent, Integration and Consolidation Higtnla.7s CONSERVATION AND D EVElDPMP'Br OF HtDWf RESOOBC!S Eclucation Health Soci&l Welfare FEI)EIW,-PBOVIlC IAL RElATIONS 1 1 s 8 ll l3 14 14 15 16 17 20

Contents Continuecl . PUBLIC DEBT Debt Transactions Guaranteed Debt -Borrowing Policy u.s. Financing FINANCIAL REVIEW REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE - FISCAL 1959 RI!.� UE AND EXPENDITURE - FISCAL 1.960 Revenue Expenditure CAPITAL SUPP LY CONCLUSION Financial Charts and Tables 25 27 .3l . .32 37 38 3S 39 40 42

Hr. Speaker: -1 - BUOOEr STAT!MI!:NT AND :BX:ONOMIC REVmi BY THE HONOURABLE DUFF ROBLDJ PR!MIER & PBOV INC!AL- TREASURER OF MANITOBA 1960 . This is mT second opportunity to place before the House a report on the financial affairs of the Province !or a fiscal year closing, and proposals for a new fiscal year ahead. I am pleased to be able to report continued economic progress. I said in mT last Budget Statement. given before this House last July, that the econemT of the Province presented a most optimistic picture.

In the interim, we experienced a difficult harvest, but- the adverse effects lihile serious were eased by prompt assistance :f'rom govel'IIIIlent, and a more favourable turn in the weather. Progress continued in the Manitoba economT as a lihole, however. Even in the short apace of time between July and March, new records were established for sales and for production in many lines . I wUl review these developments in some detail in order to provide the background against lihich we have planned our financial programme for the fiscal year beginning on April lst next .

THE ECONOMY TODAY The buo7ancy evident. throughout most of our ecollOJII7 during 1959 has carried forward into 1960 with increased strength. Favourable projections !or 1959 have been borne out. The 1959 Gross National Product approximated $34.6 billion as compared to over $32.5 billion in 1958 . During the last quarter of 1959, the G.N.P. was recorded at a yearly rate o! $35.0 billion. This confirms that Canada has continued to move away �rem recession conditions of tw 7ears ago.

The Canadian econemT and our own provincial econom;y moved forward despite credit restrictions and financial rest raints in other fields, and in spite of the constant_ threat to t-he now of production of materials from the u.s. largely due to the

Year 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 * * Projected COMPARISON OF MANrroBA1S ESTIMATED GROSS PROVINCIAL IMJOME AND GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT (Millions of Doll ars) Manitoba's Estimated % Increase Gross National Gross Provincial Income Over Previous Year Product 1,0 16 8.3 18,20 3 1,1 64 14.6 21,474 1, 259 8.2 23,255 1, 255 - 0. 3 24,473 1,252 - 0.2 24,871 1, 37.3 9.7 . 27,132 1,5 74 14.6 .30, 585 1, 550 - 1.5 31,773 1,65 .3 6.6 .32,509 1, 770 7.0 .34,6.30 Souroet Treasury Department . % Increase Over Previous Year 11.3 18.0 8 .3 5 .2 1. 6 9. 1 12 .7 .3.9 2.3 6.5

- 2- steel strike there. The fundamental strength of Manitoba 1 s econom;r bas been clear]J' established . There has been higher emploJment � higher personal income, increased production and sal es� expanded savings - improvement in near]J' everT sector - all during the period of uncertaint;y in the capital markets and the t:rading cham els . In Manitoba, the weather <iid not treat our agricu1ture ld.ndl;y. The inevitable effect on farm income will be reflected to some extent in retail sales and other economic activit;y. Even so, our economic communit;y has proven tundamental.l;y sound..

Capital investment increased in 1959 . Indeed, the volume of imrestment created <iifticulties f'or public .authorities enterillg the capital markets during the past eighteen months. Although imrestment in the public sector consequentl;y ws hampered, capital imrestment in new·equipaent, construction and machine17 tor all sectors totalled $489 milli on in 1959. This was an increase of some $80 million over 1958 - a rise of 20 per cent . Total capi�al expenditures, inclu<iing repair and maintenance for all sectors, reached an estimated $637 million last • ;year in Manitoba.

This increasing evidence of confidence on the part of private investors underline s the growth potential . Indeed, the sharp upturn in new imrestment b;y Manitoba business generall.7 in 1959 is a verT encouraging portent for the future. There is f'urther evidence ot this confidence and strength in the econom;r. - Manufacturing operations in Manitoba expanded throughout 19596 and reached production valued at an estimated $744 million tor the ;year - 10 .2 per cent above the 1958 total of $675 mill ion. This production expansion lliade possible increased earnings for the 110rkers in our Province.

Manufacturing pa;yrolls were estimated at $157 million for 19591 some 12 per cent above the $140 million earned ciuring 1958. l!mplo1JD.ent, sales and corporation profits recorQ.ed substantial

ESTIMATED GROSS VALUE OF.

PRODUCTION FOR MANITOBA J.!ANUFACTURERS BY INDUSTRIAL GROUPS (Thousands of Dollars) ,, Industrial Group Food & Beverages Electrical Apparatus & Supplies Transportation Equipment l.fisc ellaneous Industries Textiles Clothing Leather ·Products Rubber Products \Vood Products Paper Products Printing, Publishing & Allied Industries Products· of Petroleum & Coal Chemicals & Allied Products · Non-metallic Mineral Products Non-ferrous Metal Products Iron & Steel Products TOTAL: * Estimated Source: Department of Industry & Commerce. 1958 255, 500 15,400 52,500 8,020 9, 575 48, 100 6,0 33 72 30, 300 36,000 .35,400 57,300 16,200 21,400 15, 500 67, 500 674,800 -===- '\ 1959* 291,900 16,300 53,000 7,7 00 9,9 00 51,800 6,5 00 75 33,500 39,400 38,600 61,200 18,000 23,025 17, 100 75,6o0 74.3,600 -

.- 3 - gains in 1959, and preliminary indications for the first quarter of this ;rear are that the expansion is continuing. We havet maint.ained our efforts to diversit;r and strengthen the industrial complex: in tbis Province and to attract new enterpri se. In 1959, more than halt a hundred ntnr organizations entered production in Manitoba.

Among these were firms manutac:turing such products as steel railwa;y wheels, hydraulic pump s and valves, blowors , and insulated metal chimne ys: ot.her new production now supplies plAstic viab for chemical and pharmaceutic al use and print.ing inks for the increasing publishing activi ties in Manitoba. In renection of the expanding comple;d.ty Ol� our comm ercial collllllW1ity, a new manufacturer of business forms began operat:Lons in the Province last year.

Food proc essors were rep resented in the new orgaJtdzations joining the ra nks. of Manitoba 1 s fast-growing secondary industries based on the products of agricul ture . These enterpri ses underline the confidence of new investors in the future of our Province. Our new provincial agencies engaged in the promo tion of industrial development have ax:tended pr actical assistance and the result s are moat encouraging. During 1959, an estimated $331 million was invested in new construction in the Province>.

Housing starts were down for the country as a whole after the record ;rear in 1958 but Manitoba .showed continued improvement . Indeed, 1959 was the best yes.r in our history for home building starts. New lllii>Chinery and equipment purchases totalled an estimated $158 million last ;rear and we anticipate about the same level !or purchases in 1960 . Capital investment !Lnd ax:penditures in the primary sector of over $100 million during 1959 susta:i:J1ed the accelera ting development of Manitoba1.!1 natural resourc es and the i.ridu st·r:Les imm ediately concerned.

We anticipat e .further expansion in this area dur:i:Jlg 1960. With major opera tions develop:i:Jlg in the North, other t;rpes of

- 4- iuvestment are expected and further industrial enterprise will be attracted. • There has been no decline in investor interest in Manitoba despit·e the diffi cul ties in the money market . Comm ercial and financial services in this Province invested capital in 1959 estimated to total nearly $56 milllon - up 14 per cent from a total in the previous year of $49 mill ion. Investment in power, transportation, communi cations and all of the other vital services flowing from our utilities and supplied by institutions and by Government department s with their associated agencies, rose sharply in 1959.

With repair ·expenditures inclu ded, this investment in the public sector is entered at over $306 milli on. This year we anticipate further public investment of $324 mill lon . Manitoba's manufacturers made investme nts for additions and repairs to plant and equipnent totalling over $70 milllon last year - a 14 per cent rise over the expenditures on manuf acturing facili ties in 1958. The activity in the business sectors of the provincial economic coDIIIDlility ill supported by the continuing increase in Manitoba's populat ion.

We are adding people at a rate substantially higher than for most of the past 15 years. Indeed, the annual increase of some 15,000 last year was more than one third above the average tor the full post-war period. B3- December 1st , we were able to continll that the rate ot growth ws continuing. We expect that by lat e April there will be over 900,00 0 people in this Province. Trading statistics refiect this business and populat ion growth. Over the ·pa st year Manitoba has consistently lead the nation in the increase ot retail sales volume and value .

The estimat ed retail spending in this Province reached an aggregate ot $820 mill ion last year - more than 8.6 per cent above the previous

Ql CONSTRUCTION � MANUFACTURING 0 FOREST a MINERAl,. RESOURCES Q AGRICULTURE , '!!> ��\ .... 1950 1951 MANITOBA'S PROVINCIAL OUTPUT GROSS VALUE IN MILl-IONS OF DOLLARS FOR THE YEARS 1950-1 959 ,�9 -.•' '1-.� �·' ,,. .... 'b1 ' . 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 �� .. ••• •1"' 1 ... 1958 1959 1900 1800 1700 1300 '!

I) IZOO � 1100 � 1000 � -� 900 !11 . !it 800 � 100 � � 600 soo 400 300 zoo 100 0

Year Agriculture 1950 327 1951 351 1952 . 364 1953 284 1954 250 1955 264 1956 312 1957 260 1958 322 1959* 323 MANITOBA 1S PROVINCIAL . OUTPUT GROSS VALUE · (Mi,llions of Doll ars) Forest and Mineral Resources Manufacturing 76 486 80 551 78 574 73 585 84 571 11 7 588 ll8 647 121 665 74 675 77 744 *E stimated Source a Department of Agriculture Department of Mines and Natural Resources Department of Industry and Colllll erce Construction Total 155 1,0 44 183 1,165 199 1, 215 '2 46 1,1 88 241 1,1 46 257 1, 226 30 7 1,384 327' 1, 373 343 1, 414 393 1, 537

. MANITOBA AGRICULTURAL .PRODUCTION, 1950-1959� Ye;�.r 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 195S 1956 1957 1958 1959 ** Aggregate Production ($000 ) 326,971 350,650 364,1 91 283,903 249, 520 264, 396 311,817 259;7 19 322.r694 323,34, * Including allowanc es tor seed; gra:l.nj etc. tOd to stock. ** Estimated. Sour ce: Department of Agricul ture . Total (&cOO) 240,8 75 280;428 269,481 227,969 215� 518 220,790 255,993 227,542 266;359 263�052 Net Production * Average per Farm ($) 4,5 88 5,393 5,182 4,3 84 4,14 4 4,24 6 5.2 24 4, 644 5,436 5,368.

Agriculture Mineral s Forest Products Furs Fisheries Resource Output MANITOBA 15 PRIMARY RESOURCE OUTPur PRODUCTION VALUE . (Thousarxis of Dolla rs ) 1958 322,694 57,066 17, 000 5, 366 5,9 35 408, 061 Source: Department of Mines and Natural Resources . Department of Agricul ture. 1959 323,343 57,952 \ 19, 000 5, 059 6, 254 411, 608

- 5- ,-ear and representing an annual rate of gl'Olrt.h of nearl.7 3 ·p er cent above the national e:lql&nsion rate. Supporting this sales record_ has been the continuing gl'Olrt.h of personal income.

The 12 months of 1959 b�ught more than $1 .3 billion in wage, s.s.lary,and other income to Manitoba people . 'While the continuing out look for m:pansion iJi the income sector suggests that we ma,-expect the · rate of gl'Olrt.h in c1ur consumption patterns to continue along substantiall.7 the same lines during 1960, we cannot overlook the effects on net farm earnings occasioned b7 the pool� harvest, and the continuing inabilit7 of the agricultural sector to share ful�r in the general expansion of income. Bank clearings in Manitoba have emphasized the healtey state of the economy.

The more than $16.7 bUlion in cheques cashed in Manitoba during 1959 represented one half o:t' the total of such transactions in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. This was a:n increase of nearl.7 $1 bUllon or about 5. 6 per cent above the 1958 level of b'usiness. Another indication of the sustained strength of income in the Province was the record of some $191 million in life insurance purchased during 1959 . Bank savings deposits continue to represent another great reserve. All the evidence in Manitoba points to cont inued sound economic growth .

Over 165, COO people were gainfu117 employed in the Province during the past six months , a number appreciabl.7 higher than during the same period of a year earlier. However, we must continue to seek a long term solution to problems facing thcose of our working force who find thems elves temporaril7 deprived of their norD.al opportunities during the oft-season periods . Probabl7 the best solution will be found in sustained growth itself. Our efforts as a Government are predicated on this premise. AGRICULTUEW.

RESOURCE'S Agrii.culture and the people who maintain t.hat important sector of our national II.Ild provincial life mus'l; receive the continued attention of government

- 6- eo that the influence of natural difficulties and economic adjustments may be brought under better control . The farm economy in Manitoba is in the forefront of the Government 1 e considerations. While short te!Jil aid has been a matter of particular concern in rec ent months, the emphasis has been and will continue to be on. progra�ee and policies which are basic to the long term development of our agriculture . We do not anticipate that difficulties will disappear over night.

However, I wish to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to sources of strength in Manitoba's agricultural sector - not with. any intention of minimizing the problems, but in order that we may have a realistic appreciation of the continuing development and strength within the farming community in this Province. Manitoba's farm output showed growth in the past year in spite· of adverse harvesting weather.

The total value of agricultural production in the Province last year was estiruated at $J23 million - about $1 million above the total for 1958 . \'le anticipate that in 1960 agricultural production will be not less than $325 million. It is encouraging to note that more than 50 per cent of farm cash income was derived from sources other than field crops in 1959. This continuing trend toward diversification in farm production gives hope for increased stability. Adverse weather conditions affected the total farm production as everyone is well aware.

We are equally aware of the prompt action of the Manitoba and Dominion Governments to alleviate the distress caused by the crop losses . Our programme of special relief is expected to benefit some 6,000 Manitoba farmers . Ue will distribute compensation and emergency assistance tot alling more than $1,300, 000. The index of prices received by farmers declined somewhat from the 1958 level in 1959, while the index of prices paid by farmers increased . Farm cash income in the Province was improved over the previous year, but 1959 did not bring

-7- improvement in the net return to the farmer fl'OIIl his ove rall. investment in labour , land anc1 money-- net tarm. incane fell from $121 m:Ull on in 1958 to $102 m:Ull on in 1959 . A.lthough there was no substantial drop in cattle prices laSt :year, ma.rketings to the Un:i.ted States were lower than in 1958. There was less unsold wheat on Manitoba farms in 1959 than at any t:ime since 1953, but damage to crops b:y weather detracted from this :improvement.

The recent changes in Dominion price support polic ies are having a marked effect on agricultval producers, but it is too early to determine whether the ult imate outcome w:l.ll be beneficial to agricultu re. The short and long term el fects ot these changes must be evaluat ed as they appear. The UI17 favourable factors in the Manitoba agricultural sector are conditioned b:y problems for -which solutions must be found. We face a continui..""lg need to locate and develop new outl�s for agricultural products, to protect our· traditional markets and to improve farm technology .

To accomplish these . purposes, we must have the .tall est measure of co-operation among levels of government and from the farm operators themselves. The Government has extended subetantial aid to the universit:y agricultural research programme with an aim to increase further the diversification and ef!'ectivene,ss ot our farming operations . In the research ageneies eo-o perating with the G<lverm.ent, land use st"Udies are being carried out. The creation of secondar:y school divisions has meant that more and better facilit ies are avail able tor tl:!:e eduCation of the :young people i:n our farm communities.

The 4-H programme, the expanding farm business cl ubs, the l'IU'8l. sociolos:7 studies, and the advisor7 f'lmctions of the !IU'II!. extension service are all important parts of our ram progr&D�De. Our bursar;r and scholarship programmes are mald.ng university education amLU.able to 1D11.rq :yoal'.g farm peopl.e ,. training them to use more etfectivelr the sldlls and lmowle dge that are as important tal"'ll:ing tools as a tractor or a plov.

- 8 - The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation is providi.ng farmers with additional credit facili ties to encourage enlargement of farming operations. As a result .or special provisions in the agricultural credit legiSlation, capital has been made availa ble for young farmers at reduc ed rates of interest. This will ensure that many of our able younger people who might otherwise have been · forced off the land will be able to buy a farm and there establish a home. Approved loans now stand at over $4 milli on.

The Honoura ble Members will be aWa.re that we are engaged in a carefully planned test programme leading to the development of a comprehensive crop insuranc e system. We are mending our programm e of flood control and soU and water conservation throughout the Province. Agriculture , more than man;r industries, faces changing markets. Various estimates have been made as to what might be the size of Canada 1 s popule:t.ion. by the end of the decade. The Royal Colll!IIission on Canada's Economic Prospects predicted that we would be a nation of over twenty mill ion by 1970 .

Indications offered by the most recent income and consumption projections are that we will eat more of a greater variety of foods. OUr agricultural experts forecast increases in the demand for live stock and li vestock products whUe the staples will have less relative importance in the total diet. of the nation. With this �hanging product emphasis will come changes in the size and organization of farms which we must be prepared to meet . PO'WER AND COMMUNICATIONS This Government has insisted from the first that the development of our natural resources is one or its most important charges.

In this context., the development or tiower is tundauu:intal . Manitoba has an abundance or water power sources, but these must be developed if we are to have the energy resources

- 9 - necessaey to power an expanding communi t;r. Developnent lllUSt. anticipate demand, alld we have planned accordingly . In a context. o! expanding population and growing ind.u stey hydl:-o-electric expansion must be maintained . The $150 mill ion to be invested in ! �electric development over· the next five years, 1dlich includes the great ne�.r develoPm-ent. at Grand Rapids on the SaskatchBlBD R;i.ver, is an example of' our determination in this !ield .

Power has been the key to this new wealth at Thompson, a burgeoning industrial and communi ty develo p111 ent:. in the North. t'le are completing the main develo p111ent at Kel sey-to supply hy'dro-electric power for the Thompson operation . Early t!Us s1mmer, with the commissioning of' ho uni ts, the first stage o!. the i'ive unit project will be almost complet ed, by ldd ch 210, 000 H.P. will be ad ded to the energy capacity in the Province •. Generation .facili ties at Selkirk, now being comple1; ed, represent investment. of some $27 mill ion , and another 176,000 H.P. o! gene1-atillg capacit;r.

Ano theJ� major step in ensuring adequat e i'at.lll'8 supplies of bJUro-electric energy is the interconnection o! the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board's system with the Saskatch�� Power Corporation ne twork. This two-province power grid is rapidly tald.:ng shape as the new facilities are advanced, and power from the Ont ario bo�1!r to the Alberta border will. be soon ava:Uable on a single netwo rk. The value of electrical interconnections between proyinces was demonstrat ed in the past yea1�, when Manitoba purchased about 50 llill1on ld.l.otet t-hours from the H:ydro-El .. !ICtric Power Commission of Ontario.

I:r the Mazd:toba-Oatario arrange ment s had no1; been in existenc e , this energy 1IOUld have bad to be produc ed by thermal geneJ:-a.tion at a much higher cost . The interconn ection made wse of a resource - weLter in the English River - that would otbe:nd.se baTe been wasted. The Mam.toba-Saskatchewan intercomection will transfer ec� the energy requil�ed at emergency pericd.s. It will make satisfactor,-1JSe ot uc ess

HYDRO ELECTRIC POWER PRODUCTION IN" MANIT OBA

HIDRO-ELmTRIC POI'IER PRODOOTION IN MANITOBA FOR SEIJ!X}TED YEARS Year �1906 1� 116 1�126 1�136 1�146 1�156 1957 1958 195� KUo"W&.tt-houre (Thousands) 10 ,936 210 ,840 616, 551 1,320,0 19 1,9 39,40.5 3,369,8 36 3,373,973 3,101.,264 3, 624,886 Average Net Value (Thouaands o:r Dollars) 2,1 08 3,823 6,0 72 12,606 28,307 29,0 16 26,697 31 ,1 74 .,� Source: . Manitoba �ro-Electrie Board. Previous years 1 data trom Dept. ot Mines &: Natural Resources .

- 10 - generating capacity in either provincial �stem possible<. The demand for primar,y electrical energy rose by 7 per cent in 1959 to 3. 2 billion kilowatt-hour!' as compar ed to 3,0 billion kilowatt-hours in 1958. Gross output reached some 3.6 billion kilowatt-hours last :year, In 1959, an estimated $27 million or about 4 per. cent of the net value of industrial output in Manitoba was represented by electrical energy utilized in the production of goods and services.

The value of power contribution is growing with each passing year, Output of electrical energy for all purposes - industrial, comme rcial and resi dential - represented an estimated $30 million in value in 1959. If we comp are �he value of the contribution that power is making to producti vity in Manitoba, the $150 million authorized for new investment in generation and distribution in the next five years assumes its proper perspective. We estimat e that electrical energy of not less than $32 million in value will be working to produce goods and provide jobs and convenience for Manitobans during 1960.

This is the true return on our investment - a growing return and one likely to expand ever more sharply as new industry enters production in the Province and as our northern projects move toward compl etion. Power generation and distribution has continued to keep pace with the expansion in the demand for electrical energy. Distribution facilities have been increased to power the new fixtures and appliances being added annually in unpre cedented numb ers in Manitoba hom es. New lines and service provisions su� new industrial and comme rcial installations.

All of these developm ents give the measure of progress in the past twelve mon ths. The Power Comm ission has reported that the reconstruction project for transmission lines between Winnipeg and Portage la Prairie is now almost comPLet ed. Mare lines have been brought to summ er resorts during the off-mon ths to pr ovide the benefit of expanded services from the beginning of the

- 11 - tourist season. The project to CaTry supplementary power the 95 miles tram Brandon to Dauphin is now finished. The Manitoba Telephone S,stem has continued to expand facilities for the needs of' new ind.ustey and of the general public. Last year, S, OOO additional miles of' long distar1ce message circuits were established in the Province, comprising both land linEIS and radio carrier sys tems.

New customers joined the thousands of subscri bers nc,w using telephone facilities in the Province, and more phones were supplied to cttrrent subscribers - in all, a record total of nearly 19,000 new installations were made last year. The year 1959, in fact , marked the greatest annual expans:lon in service and facilities in the histoey of the J.fanitoba Telephone System. Such SJqpansion in fundamental facilities is basic. It is not something that can be deferr'ed to a more convenient fiscal climate.

We have, therefore, so managed the Province 's capital financing operations as to· ensure that there will be no interruption in the vital progress of utility developnent. DEVELOF'Ml!}IT. INTIDRATION AND CONSOLIDATION The Manitoba Developnent Fund was created in December of' 1958. By the end of the 1959�,0 fiscal year, loans totalling approximately $3 million will have been approved for new or developing enterprise in our Province. We have assisted 45 firms and individuals to establish or SJqP&nd their operations.

Of the total loans approved, 60 per cent have been f'or enterprises outside Greater Winnipeg, with 40 per cent :lnside the metropolitan area. Eveey loan has been considered as a specific invtsstment. We have created partnerships in progre ss. These enterprises and the Province both benefit f'rom these activities.

- 12 - To attract and fully utllize new capital, we are encouraging diversification and decentralization of industry. ·The Development Fund partnership helps to dis tribute the new development across the Provin ce. smatl but growing industries will be the basis for new conmrunity strength, attraeting further industry as this process continues. The facilitie s of the Department of Industry & COIIllllerce have been expended and reorganized to provide new services and further assist provincial growth. In the past year, the new Regional Planning Branch has begun mapping economic regions in Manitoba.

These will be the basis for future conmunity devel opment. Our various developmental programmes are being so organized that they will take advantage of the particular strengths end needs of each region. In this planning process, we will be aided by a reorganized and integrated town planning service. Not Ollly flo W'e intend to bring industry to more and more communities, but we intend that the induatrial growth should be both efficient and attractive. Urban and suburban economies should be integrated with the agricultural econ� in the best interests of all. Mr.

Speaker • I have sketched the economic background against which our devel opment programmes are being built. It is an economic situation in which confidence is warranted. But there can be no mistald.ng the need for care in plotting our course. The restraints upon financing imposed by the unprecedented demands for capital funds throughout Canada have their effects in Manitoba as well . We must weigh carefully our :illlmediate needs as a Provin ce against the broader aspects of economic policy � the wider national interest. Prog ress planned for the first fiscal year of our administration has become a reali ty.

We have passed through.the initial stage of our comprehensive attack on underdevelopment in this Provi nce. These undertakings that we have instituted will

- 13 - ,_ be or continuing and increasing benefit to Manitoba• The extensive redevelopment and expansion ot our provincial highway system will provide for the requir em ent s of a future economy, now being created by our other development programmes . The roads being constructed to our northern resource areas will open a new phase in Manitoba 's economic history. The 'advancing lines or telephone and power services - in fact , the tul1 range of our developmental activities - are doing more than catch up on our backlog of demands. These projects represent capacity for expansion.

They are aimed to do more than meet the demands of tomorrow . They are also designed to create in Manitoba a rlcher future of more invest1nent, more jobs and more potential for growth. HIGHWAYS In the fi6cal year drawing to a close , we will have completed over 960 miles of major highway construction, with a further 1,2 80 miles of subsidiary road work having been completed in the same period. The combined t otal of over 2, 240 miles of highway road work exceeds the completed mileage of either of the two previous years.

In the fiscal year 1957-58, the comparable totals were: 676 miles of major construc tion and 751 mi.les of subsidiary work for a combined total of 1, 427 miles canpleted. The 1958-59 !iflcal year recorded some 880 mil es of major work and just over 1, 120 miles of subsidiary work for a total of 2, 000 mil es of construction. Had bad weather not hampered ot� operations, we would have surpassed by a much greater margin the total constru�;ion of the two earlier years. Greatly improved standards of construc tion have been adopted without a more than proportionate increase in current costs.

Long term eont:Lnuing costs will, of course, be appreciably reduced by the longer life of this improv,ed construction. Standards have been upgraded by wider shoulders, more

-14 - suitable material and strengthened base courses, making for bett�r roads able to withstand the strains and wear of heavy traffic over the years. CONSERVAT ION AND DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES Upon taking office, we were faced by the almost overwhelming array of things that naeded to be done and had not been done. The lack of a programme for economic develo}:ment ;,ra.s matched by the shortcomings in social policy. Nan.y of the essential needs of our people had been overlooked, and often liith regrettable though predic table results. All progress must be geared to the hum&� needs it serves.

Highv�ys, power and res�Jrce development programmes are designed to meet the economic needs of' the people. Programmes in education, health a... "ld welfare meet the immediate eociel w�d human requirements. EDUCATION We have now completed a full year under the new education system with it s se condary division school plan as approved over-elhelmingly by the people in F'ebruary � 1958. During the fiscal period ending on ¥.arch 31 of this year, we will have mad� an investment in equal educational opportu."lity for Manitoba children totalling ::!.n excess of $30 million.

In the coming fiscal period we plan to maintain and expand that support . The improved school �stem produces many young men and women trained and eager to enter University. The Government intends to maintain support for higher learning of proportions that will enable the University to be prepared to provide full opportunity for these peopl e.

- 15 - Bursaries and scholarships w1ll continue to be provided. For 1960-61 , we have all ocated in the Estimate� sums totalling $200,000 to aid in giving qualified students opportunity to advance themselve s through higher learning. i I might r�k here , Mr. Speaker, that our contribution to education w1ll aggregate $32 mill ion on revenue account in 196o-61 and will repre sent some 34 per cent ot the total provinc:lal. budget. This compares with the $19.6 mill ion allocated in 1958-59 or 24 per cent of that budget. But more than money is represented in the advancement - far more .

What we have done is to give recognition to the most essential need of a modern community - the education of the children. We have not negle cted our young people who wish technical training. To ensure that the qualified young people are able to find suitable tt"ades training, the Department o£ Labour has developed an improved aJlPrenticeship system in �!anitoba. Under a cost-·sharing agreement with the Federal Government, 148,000 hours of class training wer e1 provided in 1959 for apprentices employed in trade s designated under The Manitoba Apprenticeship Act. In-class training is coupled with job experience.

At the begintdng of this year , 1,6 20 young men were working toward completion of apprenticesM.ps in 16 different tra des. We shall continue our efforts to improve the skills al1ld know ledge of our most valuable assets - the young people of' our Province.

The Yelill' and a half that has passed since the establishment of a provincial hospital ser�rices insurance progr amme in Manitoba has been a period of continUing increase in the vigour and efficiency of' our Hospital l'l.an. c We have �en firm in negotiations nth the Dominion Govel'DI;ent to widen the shared benefits under the I hospital services progr 811111 e.

- 16 - We have underWay a comprehensive survey of existing and potential hospital requirements, the completion of which w.ill. enable us to draw a blueprint for the future development for hospital facilities in Manitoba. In the meanwhile, we have not allowed emergency situations to continue unrelieved. Special legislation will enable the Province to assist certain major local hospitals to provide the expanded accommodation urgently required by their respe ctive communities. These particular cases - in hand before the survey began - were reported on and found to be in need of immediate attention.

Hospitals alone are not the only aspect to be considered in the maintenance of health in l!anitoba. In the coming fiscal year, we will be allocating some �800, 000 to the support of health units and allied laboratory and research services - an incr ease of 37 per cent over the 1959-60 appropriation. Research and training continue to be among the principal responsibilities supported by the Department of Health & Public Welfare. The training of nurses, docto rs, dentists and others in this field, is given substantial support by the Province.

SOOIAL WELFARE As the Honourable Members know • the first of February this year was a mile stone in our provincial social developnent. The Social Allowances Act became effective on that date and human resources were given full recognition as important assets in our community. No longer will we be satisfied with meagre expedients. Our social allowances programme is de signed to meet real need when and where it exists, in such--a manner as to encourage the beneficiaries of social assis tance to contribute of themselves to the improvement of their situation.

- 17 - For those• who are unable to maintain themselves in the colllllWlity, we will provide their basic lluntan needs. We count the benefits distributed as being every bit as important as an::r investment in a material resource or revenue producing asset. CarefUl planning assures the best possible administrative arrangements. Great care has been taken to devise legislation that is clear and fair in order to avoid injustice and 1�sted effort.

By relieving the municipalities of much of the inequitable bw."lien that they have so long carried, we improve the ability of our local governments to meet their financial responsibilities in other fields. Edu cation, health and human welfare programmes of this Government will receiYe continuing emphasis within our policy of progress for Manitoba. Successful economic developnent deper.ds upon the f'ull utilization of all resources including human resources. MuCh or our Budget has, therefore, been allocated to the support of these as the only foundation upon which our material progress can be lastingly built.

PROVINCIAL-MUNICIPAL RELATIONS ·Mr. Speaker, Prime importance must-be attached to the maintenance of sound finSncial c0nriitions at the local level. �.; e.f'.f'ecitiveness of. � of aur most important unde,rtakings JIIUst be judged by the benefits extended to the cOIIIJIIUDi.ty, Despite high interest rates, rising service requirements· and increasing costs, our municipal.:!.ties approached the problems of 1959 fran a position of strength.

These difficulties have been countered by an increased financ;;ial capacity as shown by the rise in the municipal assessment to beyond the $1 billion mark in 1958, and expansion ld!ich last year brought municipal tax resources to a level nearly double those of -just ten years earlier.

- 18 - While local governments have had to spend more. to finance their expanding activi ties and the higher costs of operation, they had a more adequat e cash pos:ltion to meet the problems encountered in 1959. Provincial financial aid has been greatly expanded to help maintain and expand the growth of the local cOlllil!Unity. There is ample evidence of the success that we have realized in ·· providing genuine oupport for the sound development of Manitoba 's municipalities. The last ��dget statement under the previous Government contaL �ed reference to the level of provincial aid to local goverill!lents.

Using the same basis of computation as my predecessor, I can report that there has been very substantial �provement in ass istance to municipalities and other local authorities in the twenty months of our responsibility. In the field of education, the next fiscal year will see a.n increase of about $10 million from the amounts available when we took office. Local drainage and conservation projects have been provided with an additional half million dollars more than in 1958-59.

Support for local road work has been sustained and ��bstantial highway mileage, formerly a municipal responsibility, has been absorbed as a direct provincial cost. Over and above these direct aids, many provincial programmes have been expanded to provide substantial relief to municipalities by the assumption on the part of the Province of a. greater share of responsibility in joint projects and undertakings.

For example, our social welfare programme will require $4.6 million more in provincial expenditure next year than was required two years ago, and much of this is due to the assumption of welfare responsibilities formerly bo� by local governments. .

- 19 - As we did in the present fiscal year, we will again in the year ahead provide new 611pport to many programm es of direct and indirect benefit to local progress. In the estimates for the year ending March 31st, 1961, we have includ ed sums that wiJLl maintain sound development in agricultural and water conservation and control programm es.

For the capital requirement s,for school s, and sewer and water facilit ies, we will continue to provide where necessary, substantial assis tance through the guarantee on purchase of bonds issued for purposes of these undertakings,, In the calendar year 1959, there was a total of $3,161, 562 in municipal bonds issued for SEMer and water purposes. We purchased $2,5 35,2 90. or the $9,68 9, 550 in bonds issued by school units in the same period, the Government took up $4,323,963.

When the combined programme of assista nce to local development - direct and indirect - is considered, the $57.8 million to be directed to such programmes in the forthcoming fiscal year will represent an increase of more than $15 million over and abave such aid provided two years ago. Mr. Spe.aker, for this next. fiscal period, we shall be extending in this manner aid which total s more than one half of our current provincial revenue. By this means , local •authorities will be able to continue to meet their responsibilit ies of developm ent.

It will go far in maintaining the financial health of municipali ties, school units, and other local authorities. To look at this in another way, in 1958, the latest year for which canplete statistics are availabl e, local tax levies totclled just over $56 million . A preliminary e:ltimate for 1959 indicated local lev ies of about $59 million and for 1960 about $6:� million. If we consider the t57.8 mill ion in provincial aid pl anned

MANITOBA'S REVENUE UNDER DCMINION-PROVIOOIAL FINANCIAL ARRANGE-IENTS* . FISCAL YEARS 1957-58 to 1960-61 STATUrORY AND TAX-SHARIW REVENUE: Statutocy Subsidy Tax Rental Equalization 50';l: Share of Income Tax on Power Ut:.ilities COST-SHARING CONrRIBtJriONS: Agriculture Health 1 Hospital Services \'leltare Vocational Training, etc .

Highways and Transportation Natural Resources Civil Defence TorAL R&:EIVED FR<M THE GOVERI-MENl' OF CANADA: (Thousands of Dollars) 1957-58 1958-59 2,0 32 2,0 32 18,418 19,969 13,932 13,233 __g _M 34,443 35, 280 32 95 2,179 2,165 4, 734 2, 588 3,550 321 347 2, 727 2,791 lll 223 24 61 7, 982 13,966 .- 42,425 49.246 -- -- Revised Estimate 1959-60 2,065 24,176 13,479 __Jf1. 39,7 69 523 1,931 10,151 5,0 12 431 3, 300 530 112 -· - 21,990 61,759 -- Preliminary" Estimate 1960-61 2, 054 �40.161 _2Q 42,2 65 120 1,929 12,000 5, 698 428 5,800 261 170 26,406 68,67l = Percentage Change 1960-61 over 1957-58 .f 22.7 .f 230.8 .f 61.9 * Not included in the tabulation are amounts paid to municipalities in lieu of taxes on Dominion property, and amounts paid as university grants. 1 Shown for· calendar year ending nearest March 31 of fiscal year indicated.

The 1958 amount is for the six months in .which the l1anitoba.H ospital Services Plan operated during that year.

- 20 - for the coming year in this context , we can easily see that if it were not for this provincial assistance, taxes on local resources 110uld have to have been practicall;r doubl ed. This $15 million increase in our asl!!istance over the last t110 fiscal periods represents approximat ely 2i times the estimated increase in local taxation in that time . From this it is cl early evident that this Government is expanding aid to local development . It is obvious that we are giving essential support to the efforts of local governmen ts.

On their part, we would expect the same careful examination of their financial polic ies that we have given this provincial budget . With these factors given full weight, our basic policy to develop , in partnership , with the local authorities the total provincial community , will continue to bear fruit . FED�PROV INCIAL RELATIONS The pr,oblems of inter-governmen tal relations in the past year have bulked large on the governmental scene . There has been some progress .

Honourable Mem bers will recall that , following the plenary-Dominion-Provincial Fiscal Conference o:r Novem ber, 1957, it was expected the Conference would be re-convened early in 1958 to examine fully the requirem ents for improvement in the financial status of th•� provinces . This meeting did not materia lize . It was not until mid- summ er oJr 1959 that a Commi ttee of Ministers of Finance and Provincial Treasurers met in Ottawa. This Commi ttee, by its very-l".Ature as it became clear, could not resolve the issues �1; stake.

It did, however, look carefully at the existing problems and, in the follo wing October, again met , to consider more fully the questions at issue . While little of a concrete nature was accomp lished, there was some

- 21 - progress toward te chnical improvement in the conditional grant zone and an assurance from Canada that the 13 per cent renewed rate for standard individual income tax would be continued until 1961-62. Ld o not want to minimize the worth of such meetings, but they do not serve the pur pose of a full conference of governments at which decisions on matters of vital policy may be reached . We have continued to urge upon the Government of Canada that such a conference should be held. It is not pr acticable to report in detail discussions which took place.

Nevertheless, I will point up a few of the highlights that reflect on the Province's position . Manitoba's representatives concentrat ed their attention upon two major matters. Firstly, we stressed the urgent need of the provinces and, through them, the municipalities for a greater share of the taxation revenue available to governments in Canada. Secondly, we stressed the capital requirements of provincial and municipal governments . As to the first , we have contL�ued to press for a larger share of individual and corporation income taxes .

As Honourable Members know, we are limited at the prese nt time to 13 per cent of the 1956 level of the Dominion tax on individual incomes and to the equivalent of a. tax of 9 per cent on corporation profits earned in the ProvL�ce, plus about 50 per cent of the Estat e Tax. On the basis of an increase of 2 per cent on the individual income rate and 6 per cent on corporation profit s - a formula. of 15-15-50 - there would be a gain in revenue of close to $13 million a year in returns to the Province. This, as a minimum, we regard as being more in line with our provincial responsibilities.

Our claim for increased revenues from this source received short shrift at the hands of the Minister of Finance. He maintained that his own budgetary situation would not permit any further "conces sions" to the provinc es . This was

- 22 - a positi on · we could not in all logic accept . This stand suggests that a province 's entit lement to a share of taxation revenue is based on lihether or not Canada. feels she can afford it . But the provinces are not mere residual partners in the Canadian Confederation. We cannot accept the imp lication that we must wait for some unstated level of Dominion revenue before we receive recognition of our just rights. To do so would be contrary to the whole principle and .spirit of Confederation. I venture to suggest , it would be contrary to the interests of Canada itself .

We were unable to persuade the Minister of Finance to recomm end to his colleagues any further char�es in the level of tax-sharing. We have not given up hope for an improvement in 1961-62, but it likely will be 1962-63 before we can expect to secure a more realistic share of the taxation pool . The second ma tter - the supply of capital - has been of grave concern to mo st provinces and mu nicipalities of Canada. Elsew here, I deal at more length l>1.th the difficulties and some of the possible solutions to the problem of capital procl.l:i"ement .

I need only stat e here , that, at these meeting s, Manitoba has pressed for some co-operative solution to the financing of economic and social growth. May I quote from a recent issue of the Montreal Gazette: "··· ••• Over the years just ahead the costs of Canada's growth are going to fall (as they are already falling ) most heavily upon regional and local governm ents. This is \ because growt.h is demanding many outlays for capital expenditures for traffic improvement s, schools, hospitals, and other imp erative construction. Such expenditures can scarcely be postponed if the growth is to take place.

If the growth tried to take place without this improvement , the result will be chaos." National growth, as well as provincial and local development , is bound up in this problem . Provinces willingly accept their full share of the �esponsibilities

- 23 - and benefits of Confederation, But Federal economic. and financial policies clos ely affect their financial capacities . The provinces require greater con sideration than they have yet received. \ve will be meeting this SUill!ller again with representatives of the Dominion Government to study those fir�nci al, economic and constitutional problems which face us in the Canadian Nation. It is our hope that, through these Conferences, a further advance may be made toward a full recognition of the provinces• plac e in governmental structure.

In these negotiations we will - as in the past - hold to those basic principles which the fundamental interests· of Manitoba demand. One of the advances made in the 1955 and 1956 negotiations was the recognition of the principles of equalization and stabilization . It is true that there was a substantial element

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-46
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 46.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2c5d05a31ff9d87e4c01d7c087227ac1f5d71503

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