Vo 1 • 2 Preliminary Unedited Transcript House of Assembly For the Period: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. Friday, June 3, 1977 No. 107

June 3, 1977, Tape 3745, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~~ R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: r~r. Speaker. ~1 R . SPEAKER: The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I move that this House go on record as commending the magnificent job performed last night by the officers and crew of the ~illiam Carson, the excellent sense of discipline shown by the Carson•s passengers,and especially the magnificent search and rescue operations carried out by the Air, Sea Rescue facility.

Had it not been for the combination of such wonderful work and s~lendid attitudes by all .. -· three, Sir, there might indeed have been a real black mark, a tragic black mark spelled out in the history of our Province last evening while you, Mr. Speaker, and members of the House sat here in St. John•s with no idea at all of the near tragedy taking place off our shores. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. P R EtH E R r~ 0 0 R E S : ~1 r . S p e a k e r , I w i1 1 g 1 ad 1 y second those remarks. It was a pretty dramatic experience, I mean, when it was on the Late News last night.

It is almost incredible that such a thing can happen in this day and age. You almost think back to the Titanic when she went down by hitting an iceberg. But with all the electronic facilities on these boats today, it is almost one of amazement that such an event could happen. But it did and I certainly concur with the han. member•s remarks when he says that at any time of a traumatic experience like that it must be always very difficult to curb panic and to keep your cool.

Abandonment of the shio must have been done under trying circumstances but obviously _it was done very, very well because the success was no loss of life at all. I understand the Atr, Sea Rescue 1..0499

June 3, 1977, Tape 3745, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: people were working all through the night, and I would think a helicopter operation through the night would be also difficult a n d d a n g e r o u s • I t h i n k , a s w a s s a i d • t h i c: H n " c: ~:~ c: n ,.. ._. 1 ~ go on record of congratulating those who were responsible for handling the thing so well once the accident occurred, and to also say that we are very thankful that the crew and the passengers were all saved. SOME HON. MEMBERS: r~ R • S P E A K E R : Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! The han. the Leader of the \•J e 1 1 , ~·1 r .

S p e a k e r , ..,, e w o u 1 d certainly like to be associated with the remarks made by the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the remarks made by the Premier. I think it is a good use of the word 'dramatic' to say that the circumstances surrounding the loss of the Carson were dramatic. I think that everybody in this Province must be grateful and relieved that such an accident in the niqht off the coast of Labrador 1 a large ship like this sinking with no loss of life and, I understand,not even any serious injuries. I think the captain and the crew ought to be commended.

I think that the Air, Sea Rescue people, who apparently sprang into action­ very quickly, and the new system that the Ministry of Transport have brought in these last few months seem to have functioned very effectively in this test as it has in some others. I think as well commendation ought to be paid to the people ashore in Mary's Harbour on the coast of Labrador and at St. Anthony who were involved in that aspect of the rescue operations, an aspect which fortunately became fairly minor because there were no serious injuries. 1..0500

June 3, 1977, Tape 3745, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: I think the whole Province will await with interest the results of the inquiry which must be heid. It is a federal responsibility and I am not sure whether it is automatic or whether some action must be taken.

But we will all want to know exactly what happened, how a fine large ship which I saw here in the harbour a day or so ago down at the old American dock in her brand new coat of paint, her new blue colours with her new logo on her all spanking ready to go into service for the season, how that fine ship on what I understand was a calm night, a moonlit night with no heavy seas, no adverse weather conditions, exactly what happened. If we ever need any reminders in this Province that the sea can be a cruel master as well as a good servant, we were given one last night.

We are all grateful that there was no loss of life and that the incident has passed with so little permanent harm. But as I say, I for one and I think many others, will have very real questions which will be answered I am sure by the inquiry. Also, I think it is right and proper that concern be expressed now about what alternate arrangements CNR are going to be able to make. The Carson had become an integral part of the link between the Island and Labrador. I know that her first two ar three trips were completely booked out of Goose Bay coming South with the exodus of people who must leave.

The whole distribution of food and other freight on the coast of Labrador had been built around the Carson. Obviously there is no replacement for her. The auestion is, can they find a substitute and if so how quickly? But, Sir, we ought to be grateful,and we are grateful,that the incident was carried off. It was a lot of good fortune. Such a beautifully calm night, such ~0501

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3746 Page 1 - ::1s ~ ·fr. Roberts. good 'veather conditions. But on the other hand I think all of those, t:1e captain, the crew, the Search and Rcscae people ought to be commended as ':.;ell. It is a dramatic incident, but it has had a happening endi~g. Sir, and for that we ought to be grateful. :fR. SPEAKER: ~.fR. S'!.'1ALUvOOD : The hon. member for Twillingate. }lr. Speaker, in concurring completely in the -=emarks of the three hon. gentlemen who have spoken~may I add a thought for the Premier's consideration.

The lVilliam Carson T.Yas given her name - or at least her name >¥as suggested by me, Dr. ;~illiam Carson being one of my ~ewfoundland heroes, and in my view the greatest public man that ever lived on this Island, the greatest public man that ~ewfoundland has ever known, the founder and the father of democracy in Ne\vfoundland. And I was very proud ••hen asked to suggest a name for the new sflip t:o suggest the name ~Elliam Carson.

Now there is no William Carson any :nore, and I ask the Premier to give sincere thought to the idea of his suggesting as Premier of the Province that the name \Jilliam Carson be placed on some ~vorthy ship that may come in coming months or years. I do not know how many years the Premier will be Premier, but certainly something is going to be built ~vhile he is Premier. Hould he try to get the name William Carson put on that ne'.Y ship? HR. SPEAKER: ~·~R. \-THITE: The han. member for Lewisporte. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say just a word on this, because it does affect my district and many of the cre~.r members on the ~.Jiliiam Carson ,.,ere from my district, including some of the senior officers on that particular vessel. Last ye-ar, }-1r. Speaker, on the sixth of June the Hilliam Carson sailed out of St.

John's on the first run up to the Labrador Coast, and I had the opportunity, the privilege to be on ~oa~d t~at maiden voyage up the coast of Labrador and other members here as well, the member for Naskaupi (M~ . . ~oudie) was on that particular trip, and I do not know hmv ma:;:-.y more were on that particular voyage. Last year that vessel went out of Lewisporte once a week and "W"en~ up to Labrador, touched in at St. Anthony and: Cartwright and 1..0502

Ju::1e 3, 1977 Page 2 - t:s :!r. ~TI:ite. then to Goose Bay and taen returned to LeHisporte. i\...'l.d, ~~. Speaker, t~e r:1ost successful undertaking that C~! ~-[ arine has ever done in "e•·fo ndl d t" " · "" · f C d · ,. · ' •• .v u. an , ne _•.ar:tne .,rancn o ana ·:tan .\a t:tona.L, Has the ~ ·7 illi!1m Carsc:1 trip last year. :1r. Rupert Tingley, tl'le ;enerzl 1:1anager of t~e C)[ ~-:arine nm-1 - it used to be the East Coast ~- 1arine and Ferry Service - :·rr. Tingley told me that it ·was the most successful thing that they had undertaken.

Last Summer every single -voyage · of the \Hllian Carson was full, cars, people and freight going up to the Labrador coast. It \vas also an economic boost to my district, because the ~vholesale fir~s that are located in Lewisporte had an opportunity to s h iu t a eir goods up the Labrador coast more efficiently than had ~een done previously.

So I am sure that the members here,from the Labraaor area and from my area in particular, are hoping that a replacement for the Hilliam Carson \.Jill be found quickl y so that this particular undertaking by c:~ ~1arine can be started, and can be gotten going as quickly as possible. It \vas my understanding that already CN Yarine are looking into the possibility of another ship which would have gone in conjunction \vith the \villiam Carson. Then you ~muld have had t\vO operating on that particular voyage. And, ~1r.

Speaker, I predict that in future years this will be one of the most successful things that takes place in Newfoundland during the Summer and Fall. The William Carson was operating there very successfully last year. As soon as the Freedom Road that has been talked about is opened up to Churchill Falls, and it means that the vehicles from Churchill Falls can come out to Goose Bay and also from Labrador City and ;-Jabush, this will be the link in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, bet\veen the Island and the Labrador portion of the Province.

And I hope the government '"ill get moving right away to talk to Ci Xarine and see exactl y what plans the y have for a ne"tv ship to operate bet"lveen Le•visporte and between the Labrador coast. I just \vented to say that word, Mr. Speaker. 1.0503

J ne 3, 1977 Tape no . 37t.6 Page 3 - ms NOTICES OF MOTION: ~:tlL SPEAKE?- : The hen. ~Iinister of Nunicipal Affairs. Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow as.k leave to introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Housing Act." MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice . that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the hon. House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act." And give notice t-llat I w-ill on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution in relation to the raising of loans on. the credit of the Province, which is the annual 1.0504

June 3, 1977 Tape 3747 EC - 1 HR. DOODY: Loan Bill,and to move the House into a Col!I!D.ittee of the 1-IT1ole to consider certain resolutions relating to the guarantee of the repayment of bonds or debentures issued by,on the guarantee of repayment of loans made to certain local authorities. MR. SPEAKER: Answers To Questions For ~fuich Notice Has Been Given. MR. ROBERTS: ~fuat about the investigation of Public Works? MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. DOODY: I have answers to some questions. :MR. ROBERTS: Oh, okay· Well ,can we revert?

And also the Hinister of Justice may have some information about the RCM Police investigation into the scandals in the Public Works Department and these electrical contracts, But let us revert. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to revert to Answers to Questions? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Agreed. ANSrffiRS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN ~fR. DOODY: Answers to Question No. 100 from the han. member for LaPoile : (Hr. Neary)~Hr. Speaker, · Question No. 147, Question No. 153. HR. NEARY: By whom? ~at Order Paper ·? MR. DOODY: I do not know what the Order Papers are.

Question No. 100 is the member for LaPoi1e, Question No. 14 7 is the member for LaPoile, Question No. 153 is the member for LaPoile, Question No. 157 is the member for LaPoile, Question No. 162 is the member for LaPoile, Question No. 180 is the member for LaPoi1e, Question No. 200 is the member for LaPoi1e, Question No. 213 is the member for LaPoi1e, :10505

June 3, 1977 Tape 3747 EC - 2 t-1R. DOODY: Question No. 234 is the member for LaPoile - I think that one I answered verbally ~ that is on the Roard of Liquor Control or the Liquor Commission ·is security arrange­ ments. Anyway that is it. ::1P.. ROBERTS: The minister is doing a good job. If only his colleague next to him would answer some questions. MR. ROBERTS: Are we on Oral Questions? MR. SPEAKER: ~ve will be in a moment. We had reverted to No. 5 and now I call Oral Questions again. ORAL QtJESTIONS MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: Is the Minister of Justice going to answer the" question about the police investigations? AN RON. }fEMBER: The minister said yesterday he would check on it. NR. ROBERTS: Well,the minister yesterday said he would check into it. I mean, here we have · the Auditor :;eneral, the paper tells us, requesting an investigation into the possibly criminal activities in the Department of Public Works and we would like a little information about it, that is all. The Premier says it is not true. You know, I asked the question on it. The question was asked yesterday, I am not askin~ a question now.

I just wonder if the minister is going to answer the question he took as notice yesterday. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier says it is not true. MR. ROBERTS: The Premier says it is not true but it is true. The Auditor-General has requested an investigation and the Director of Public Prosecutions~or one of the officials down there,has written the police to ask them. I want to know what it is about. The minister took it as notice yesterday. Is he going to give us any answer? I asked the question yesterday, Mr. Speaker, and the minister took it as notice. Is he going to answer it today or is he trying to cover it up? 10506

June 3, 1977 }1R. HICI01A.L~: HR.. ROBERTS : ~:!R. HIC:EC1AN: asked. NR. ROBERTS : Tape 3747 EC - 3 I am not trying to cover up anything. Well then answer the question. I was not in the House when the question was Mr. Speaker, the minister was in the House· my friend from Fortune - Hermitage - AN RON. ME'HBER: }lR.. ROBERTS: That is right. - asked the question yesterday, The minister took it as notice. Is he going to answer it? MR. HICKNAN: Yes , I _:vill. MR. ROBERTS: Yes? When? ?ffi. HICKHAN: As soon as you sit down. MR. ROBERTS: All right, and then we will go back to another question. Ans~ver it now. :MR.

NEARY: ~. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Period. ~fR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. No. Hold _on now. Order, please! We are not going to hold open the Question No, I agree. Order, please! Let him answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to hon. gentlemen that I cannot permit debate during Question Periods. Obviously an hon. gentleman is recognized for a question and then an hen. minister answers. And if he does not answer it cannot be the subject of debate. HR. ROBERTS: l AJ.~ RON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: No answer, 'Alex'? A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. Order, please!

I do not think I can recognize any hon. gentlemen~ for - speaking on a supplementary because the definition of a supplementary is arising out of the answer,and the hon. 1.0507 ..:

Jnne 3, l977 Tape 3747 EC - 4 MR. SPEAKER: minister has not answered. The hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) follow·ed by the hon. gentleman from Lewisp .orte (~~r. F. Hhite). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the han. ~- !inister of Justice could confirm or deny reports published L~ the newspaper that the Auditor ~eneral or somebody has requested an investigation into cert~in activities in the Department of Public Works? Would the minister care to give the House any information on this matter? MR. SPEAKER: }ffi.. R!CK}rAN: The hon. minister. Mr.

Speaker, I thank the han. gentleman from LaPoile for the approach he has taken in asking a question that can sometimes have very serious ramifications with respect to individuals. The facts are, Mr. Speaker, that the Auditor General on Wednesday of this week asked the Director of Public Prosecutions - HR. ROBERTS: Hhich Wednesday? 1.0508

June 3,1977 Tape 3748 - ~ -~orning AR-1 }tR. FICIOI'A~: On T·'ednesday of this T·7eek, h,.ednesday~ June 1,1~77, I asked the Director of Public Prosecutions if he would request or ciirect the Royal Canadian }Jaunted Police to investigate dealings by a company and,lbr individual w·ith a department of goY.ernment.And the Director of Public Prosecutions without any r,esitancy directed such an investigation be instituted, It is not correct, indeed it would be quite incorrect to say that there is an investigation into the Department of Pu-.Jlic V.Torks and Servi~es.

The practice that has been follow·ed and must be followed with respect to any investigation, other than the fact that it is made public that an investigation is being carried out, there should not and cannot~ unless we are prepared to prejudice the rights of individuals who may be totally innocent 1further comment by me on it.

It is always regretable in this type of case, and I guess it is inevitable,that the fact that there is an investigation going on into a cornoration or an individual becomes public knowledge, yet if you take it to its logical conclusion we have from time to time,and I suppose almost daily,complaints coming in which result in investigations, If they ever became public those people who were found to be innocent would still suffer immeasurably and that is why the rules are so , I strict and must be.

Eut I simply confirm - PP~IER MOORES: Especially if we left it up to our opposition. ~1R .HICKHA,>;J": I must specifically repeat and confirm that immediately the request was made, as in every case the Director of Public Prosecutions reacted and reacted quickly and the investigation into this company and/or individual is ongoing. ~'fR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. Hon.member for Lewisporte. ~tR. lilHITE : ~r.

Speaker, my supplementary is to the Hinister of Justice and while we fullv anpreciate that he does not want to give us very many details '11e '11ould like to know a few more .And I wonder if the minister could tell us exactly what prompted the investigation, what aspect of the alleged company dealing with the department. whichever department it is, is being investigated? If it comes dtrectly from the Auditor General report can the minister 10509

June 3 ~1977 Tape 3748 - Horning AP.-2 MR. WHITE: tell us v1hether or not it. involves the issuing of purchase orders, a large number of purchase orders for one job,or if it ties directly into that? Can you be a little specific? lfuy is the investigation going on'and what are the suspicions? HR. HICIG· W·~: Mr. Speaker, I cannot and will not give any further details. There is an fundamental rule that every person is presumed innocent • MR.. \.JHITE : Of course. ~ffi.. HICKMA.~: - ¥Then any investigation is implemented.

Statements such as t~ose just made by the hon.member for Lewisporte is not based on that presumption. It is quite wron~ 2nd I will not, ~fr. Speaker, give anv indication of the nature of the investigation. If the investigation reveals any breach of the law the appropriate action w:Ul be taken; if it does not, it will not. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.Leader of the Onposition. Before his question I would like to welcome to the gallery on behalf of hon.members fifty grade seven students from Hary Queen of the World Junior High School in St. Joqn' s accompanied by to;o:-::J of their teachers, Mr.

Jerry Lavigne and Mrs Rita lvalsh. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming the students and their teachers to the House of Assembly. SOME HON • MDffiERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Hon.Leader of the Opposition MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a question to the Premier ·relevant to the bill before the Rouse, the proposed new Labour Relations Act. Has the Premier received any representations from the Federation of Labour with respect to this bill? MR. SPEA..."!(ER: Hon. Premier .. I PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, yes,I have received representations from the Federation of Labour and other labour groups as long ago as eight or nine months at which time the bill was gone through 10510

June 3,1977 Tape 3748 - Horning AH-3 PRE11IER r100RES : thoroughly,at least to the stage it had orogressed at that stage,and as I understand it the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations - or Labour now, has been having meetings ~vith them throughout as well. I understand at the oresent time he is meeting ~vith the Federation of Labour executive in his office. I do not know if that answers the question or not but that is the situation. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. HR. SPEAI<".ER: A supplementary. MR.

ROBERTS: Are the government prepared to suspend or to postpone discussion on the bill which has new received second reading until the Federation of Labour and any other interested groups~be they employers or labour~have an opportunity to make representation on the present bill which in my understanding is significantly different from the legislation that tvas tabled in the House last year , the legislation in respect of which the discussions to ~.rhich. the Premier referred, in the respect of. which those discussions were held.

Are the government prepared to suspend or pospone the debate until such time as any group with a legitimate interest, a proper interest,are given the opportunity to e~ress their views either to a select committee or to the House as a whole. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.Premier. :1.051:1 ..:

June 3, 1977, Tape 3749, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the situation is that we will listen to what the Minister of Labour has to say after his meetings this morning. But however, business employers and unions have been involved in the compilation of that bill for some four years. There is always going to be something in any bill that one group or the other is not going to be happy with. As long as that is the case, it means that there would never be any labour legislation if we had to get total agreement on both sides.

A lot of work and a lot of thought has gone into that and a lot of consultation with both unions and management. As I say, I do not think either or both groups are going to be totally happy with whatever transpires from any labour legislation. As I say, we will be listening to the Minister of Labour after he has finished this morning, but I might say also that consultations with all relevant gro~ps have been ongoing for a considerable length of time and as the bill died on the Order Paper last year I would certainly hope it does not this year. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: questioner. MR.

ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Sir. A supplementary,the original Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear the Premier has acknowledged that consultations have gone on for a long time. Eighteen months is the gestation period for an elephant, and this particular bill - has been five years coming to this stage, Can the Premier tell us whether there has been any consultation with either the Federation of Labour or any _labour groups on one hand, or, on the other hand, any groups representing employers with respect to the bill as it is now before the House, Sir?

I want to draw the distinction between the legislation which was rushed·into the House on Wednesday and rushed through here yesterday. I want to draw the distinction 10512

June 3, 1977, Tape 3749, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: between that bill on one hand and on the other hand the draft legislation as it was presented to this House last year, legislation which, as the Premier says, the government chose not to proceed with in the 1976 session. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, we talk about the gestation period for an elephant-being eighteen months and five years for this bill. Both will be like lightening compared to the han. gentleman becoming Premier. However, having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know and I will have to refer this question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Windsor - Buchans followed by the han. the member for LaPoile. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Around two weeks ago the Premier gave an undertaking that he would table the report received by Cabinet as a result of those meetings held in Grand Falls between ASARCO and management of Price (Nfld. ). Would the Premier please indicate if he is in a position to table that report now? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: I apologize for that, Mr. S p e a k e r • T h e M i n i s t e r a f M i n e s a n d E n e r g y , I t a 1 ked t-a him immediately after that. He said he was going to get it for me. I do not have it yet but I will certainly follow through on it today for you. MR. FLIGHT: t·1R. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Would the Premier indicate whether or not the Cabinet has studied the report yet and is in a position to take any action with regard to the :1.0513

June 3, 1977, Tape 3749, Page 3 -- apb r·1 R • F L I G H T : results of that report? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I might say, Mr. Speaker, for the han. gentleman•s information, I do not think it is the normal thing to say but last week we spent some couple of hours doing nothing but the Buchans Task Force and reports of that nature that refer to the district that the han. gentleman represents. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for LaPoile. ~~R. NEARY: My question is for the Minister of Health, Sir. Now that the minister is back in his seat and the name of Dr.

Selikoff has become almost a household word in Newfoundland, would the minister indicate to the House if the minister•s department has taken any action on the reports of occupational health hazards with regard to .mining asbestos in Bate Verte and on the roads in Baie Verte? Has the minister any information to give the House in this matter? MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. COLLINS: The han. the Minister of Health. Yes, Mr. Speaker. As a result of some statements which have been made in this House, and some letters from Dr.

Selikoff have been used - I believe they \''ere the subject of a press conference by the Opposition - we tried, both myself and my Deputy Minister to get in touch with Dr. Selikoff all last week and the week before. We finally telexed the gentleman ­ and wrote him and I can say that we have received a response from him, received it a couple of days ago. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question then, t~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ~~R. NEARY: A supplementary. Obviously the gentleman has gone to great pain to get in touch with Dr. Selikoff. Did I understand the minister correctly that there is a response from Dr.

Selikoff? 10514

June 3, 1977, Tape 3749, Page 4 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: is it in writing? r~R. H. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: Yes. Would the minister tell us, Yes. Would the minister tell us what is in that report or whatever it is the minister has recieved from Dr. Selikoff? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. :1.0515

June 3, 1977 Tape 3750 (Morning) PK - 1 HR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am not so sure that I should indicate what is in the letter, although I suppose there is nothing confidential, nothing to be regarded as confidential because when Dr. Selikoff eventually writes his report that will become public knowledge because copies of the report will go to the Steel Workers Union, copies of the report will go to the Johns- Mansville people,and a copy will be coming to us 1 and I suppose that that will be a public report then. But I can certainly inform the hon. House that - I think I have a copy of the letter here.

There is nothing in the letter which al~rms me to any great extent. I would cer~ainly be glad to tabie a copy of the letter m1d let hon. members see it so that the air will be cleared in terms of what Dr. Selikoff tells us now, and the date on this letter is May 25. And I do not think I would be betraying Dr. Selikoff because as I said, Mr. Speaker, the report when it is finally made available will become ·a public report. I can only table the letter and get copies made. MR. NEARY: Will the minister read the copy of the letter to let the House know what is in the letter?

It is not a long letter, It does not look like a long document. I MR. H. COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Dr. Selikoff starts off, he says, "I have been deeply aware and most appreciative of your concern - the letter is to me - regarding health hazards in the Baie Verte area. We are equally confident that your interesting commitment will assist an-implementation of such modifications of conditions associated with the asbestos exposure in that area as these are found desirable. We have not yet formulated recommendations since we are only now completing our statistical analysis. I expect that the

summary data would be available shortly since we have completed the compilation of the individual findings. We are now beginning to send reports to each of the miners and the statistical summaries will be available when these meetings _are finished. 11 At that time we will forward to you, to Johns- Manville, and the United Steel Workers the results of the investigations. 1.0516

June 3, 1977 Tape 3750 (Morning) }fr. H. Collins: We will also offer such recommendations which,in our opinion, may be warranted on the basis of the results obtained. ''Some week ago Mr. Rideout contacted us asking for a

summary recommendation concerning environmental contamination associated with roads constructed of asbestos content block. He stated that there was some urgency in_ the matter because of budgetary scheduling problems. We wrote him in this regard, but did not provide - I repeat, Hr. Speaker, did not provide - any detailed review of our data on environmental measurements. In substance we suggested that the roads be so treated as to minimize or eliminate asbestos contamination from this source. This was in no sense an official report, but simply an answer to an inquiry.

We intend to review this matter in greater detail in our report to you. We have been most appreciative of your co-operation, it has been very helpful in our work. Signed Irving J. Selikoff, M.D." MR. NEARY: Would the minister table that document? Mr. Speaker, is the minister going to table the document? MR. H. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: HR. NEARY: MR. H. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: MR. H. COLLINS: Yes. Well,where is the page? v7ill he also table the telex as well? Yes, will the minister table the telex also? I have not got it here now. But the minister is prepared to table it? Sure. PK - 2 Okay.

A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker, arising out of the report of Dr. Selikoff. Does the minister or his officials feel that there is any sense of urgency in connection with this matter? And is the minister's officials keeping a watchful eye on the situation and continuously monitoring the asbestos dust problem in the Baie Verte area? MR. NEARY: 1.0517

June 3 , 1977 Tape 3750 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated on numerous occasions in the House that we have co-operated with Dr. Selikoff to the extent to which he requested co-operation both financial and in term of human resources. Dr. Selikoff and his team did a considerable amount of work in the Baie Verte area, and for us to commence any further testing at this stage until we receive the report from Dr. Selikoff and his team would be not only a waste of public funds but a waste of effort as well.

We hope now that we will be able to maintain good liaison with Dr. Selikoff, and some indications in this letter the report should soon be received, once it has been received then of course we will get the detailed study and attention and consideration which it deserves. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. 10518

June 3, 1977 :·IR • SPEAKER: O'[lposition. ~1R. ROBERTS: Tape no. 3751 Page 1 - ms A supplementary by the han. Leader of the Thank you. ~rr. Speaker, the minister very kindly read th~ letter r,.rhich he received from Dr. Selikoff. Could the minister tell us whether in the minister's view the statements in the letter are a contradiction of the opinion expressed by Dr. Selikoff in the letter ~•hich he., Dr. Selikoff, sent to the gentleman from Baie Verte - \mite Bay, the letter which was made public as the minister has mentioned? Is the minister going to answer ? }~. SPEAKER: }IR.. COLLINS: The han.

Ninister of Health. ~r. Speaker, the only response I can make to that is that there were two letters, I believe, received. There might have been a dozen. But I am told by the han. member for Baie Verte - \'7hite Bay (Y.r. Rideout) that he received t'tvo letters. In fact,he gave us copies of them, I think, too. One letter drew attention to the possibility of some future problems on the Baie Verte road,as I understand it. Re did not categorically say anything. HR. ROBERTS: :·~. COLLI~S: But he did say the roads ought to be paved. Well, I suppose every road in the country should be paved or treated •. ~.fR.

ROBERTS: No, but Dr. Selikoff said in his opinion that it ought to be paved for medical reasons. HR. COLLINS: Hell, I would not mind tabling those letters; Mr. Speaker. I have not got them with me, but let us get those letters and table them so that we can show that Dr. Selikoff was not very definite or categorical in his statements in those letters. Let us get them and table them and have a look at them. IvlR. ROBERTS: the question . The letters ~vere public anJ't.vay. But answer 10519

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3751 Page 2 - ms :~ '{. SPEA ... T(ER: The han. member for Bellevue. i·fr. Speaker, my question is for the ~Enister of Tourism. I am wondering if his depart:nent ~s any results yet of the moose samples from the E~CO Long Harbour area? Have they received any results from the tests that were done on these moose from that area? ~fR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Tourism. ~1R. HICKEY: Yes, Hr. Speaker, we have some further results back, and efforts that have been made and have been going on since the initial statement are now being finalized.

And I hope that a statement ~vill be made soon outlining the situation. The efforts that I refer to, of course, are in connection with the acquiring of an agency to gather, to take all the data, to gather nore or ~..rhatever other information that is necessary,and to do a thorough investigation into the whole situation. ~fR. CALLAN : l-.:R.. SPEAKER: HR.. CALLA.L'I : A supplementary. A supplementary. The minister is not in a position right now then to indicate rt~hether the tests done on the moose resulted in the same analysis as the rabbits, for example, that the meat was not affected, however the bones were.

Is the minister in a position to clarify that? ~1R. SPEAKER: ~J.R. HICKEY : The han. minister. No, Mr. Speaker. I think it ~..rould be irresponsible for me or for that matter any lay person, certainly any person without having expertise in fluoride, I think it "tvould be irresponsible to draw conclusions at this time, and for that reason "tve have not made any statement with regards to the most recent reports that we.have received back. Those are being analyzed and are being checked out.

And as I said, efforts are still continuing to put together this agency, acquiring this agency, and putting together the whole situation "\vhich will be announced as quickly as possible so that the work can continue and get into ~igu gear, and indeed we are very anxious to g~t it moving. 1.0520

June ~, 1977 Tape no. 3751 Page 3 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Hinister of Tourism as ~.;rell on a different subject ~vith respect to the policy governing the issue of moose licences, Hhat is the policy, Sir, in the situation ~vhere a person was awarded last year the rignt to buy a licence - his name was drawn or whatever the procedure is - but chose not to exercise that right and chose not to exercise it i~ good time that the licence was issued to somebody else? It did not just go into default.

Is that person now considered to be in the category of those who were issued a licence last year and therefore, as I understand the system, do not qualify or are the last to qualify for a licence this year? I think I have made it clear. Okay, if I have made the point perhaps the minister could tell us the policy, Sir. :t:-fR. SPEAKER: ::1R. HICKEY: The han. minister. Mr. Speaker, as I understand the question of the han.

Leader of the Opposition, and I think it applies to a number of people last year, probably a couple of dozen or more, people ~.;rhose names ·.vere dra~m, but they did not pick up their licence, they did not fon.;rard their money and pick up the licence, and in fact - · HR. ROBERTS: But notified the department in good time so that the licence could be issued to somebody else. }fR. HICKEY: Yes. 1.0521.

June 3,1977 Tape 3752 - 'fornin~ AH-1 ~'!P... HICKEY: As I understand it.and I will check to make sure, but as I understand it those people would be considered now to have had an opportunity to hunt.Although they did not take a licence or did not.use it as suchitheir names were drawn, they could have, thev forfeited the right when they did not pick up the licenses or pay for them. iJo~v that is from memory. I will check that out and I will give the leader a further explanation. '-:R. ROBERTS: A supplementary on that,Hr. Speaker. ~1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~'ffi.. 'ROBERTS : I am grateful to the minister.

It seems very unfair where a person turned down the license in good time. ~Tow if ~e just choose not to pick it up and thus the opportunity of somebody else to have the license was lost, that I think is a different situation. So on that basis it seems to me unfairly to penalize a person to say he cannot even get his name put in the dra~-r this year.

Y.Jould the minister undertake to review the policy with a view to seeing it could be changed at least in respect to people who played the game to the extent of saying, "Look~! am sorry .Circumstances have changed since I applied for my license, I will not be needi!' .g one now and I tell you this in time enough that somebody else can get a crack at the license!' I think that would ~e a fairer way to go at it than what appears now. The hon.minister. ~. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly prepared to do that.

On one other poiht of clarification,as I said I would want to check to make sure the case as referred to by the Leader of the Opposition aP.plies to what 1I aave said. It is quite conceivable that it does not~ I do recall a number of situations last year, numbering two dozen or more, ~·T ere licenses vrere not picked up._ It is conceivable that there was no notification by those people and if that is the case then they ~-~ au ld fall in this category. HR. ROBERTS: )Those people have forfeited their rights. 1..0522

June 3,1977 3752 - Horning AH-2 MR. HICKEY: If someone had in fact notified us in time so that the license was made available to someone else 1 then certainly as the leader points out there seems to be a valid case and certainly I ~vould gladly look into it. HR. ROBERTS: 't-1R. SPEAKER: from Bellevue. HR. NEARY: It is only the latter case I am concerned about. Hon.member for LaPoile followed by the hon.gentleman Mr.

Speaker, my question I was going to direct to the hon.the Premier~but in the absence of the hon.the Premier I will direct my question to the Minister of Justice, the government House Leader, the acting Premier. Can the acting Premier tell the House if a major meeting of ministers, the premier,ministers an.d high ranking government officials is scheduled to take place in Happy Valley and Goose Bay in the near future? And if so \vill the government be announcing a De-puty ~'inister of Labrador Affairs1 MR. HR. MR. MR. SPEAKER: HICKMAN: NEARY: SPEAKER: Hon.Minister of Justice.

I am not in a -position to answer that question. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A sup-plementary. Hould the minister tell the House if the government have given anv consideration to appointing a minister rather than an assistant deputy minister or a deputy minister of Labrador affairs1 Would the government consider or have they considered appointing a minister to give Labrador full ministerial status rather than pawn them off on an assistant deputy or a deputy minister? MR. NEARY: ~m.. HICKM.AN : MR.. SPEAKER: from l!'ogo. HR. CALLAN: I ~o1ill have to take that as notice.

Hon.member for Bellevue followed by the hon gentleman ~fr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of ¥.unicipal Affairs. In view of the fact that only councillors in the two cities in our Province, St. John's and Corner Brook~get paid for services rendered as council members, I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, I 10523

June 3,1977 Tape 3752 - }laming A .. l-1-3 1-ffi.. CAL~: am wondering if - and the fact that,in view of the fact that there will be municipal elections Province-"to7ide in the Fall and there may be a li~elihood that there might not be too manv people interested in running for council as there seems to '\:)e a trend away from that, I am 't>TOndering if legislation is going to '\:)e brought in this session of the House to provide renumeration for councillors other than just in the two cities? }'1R. SPE.A!<ER: Ron Minister of Municipal ·Affairs. MR. DINN: Hr.

Speaker, it certainly will not be done in this session of the legisla.ture. One of the recommendations of the Whelan Commis~ion Report was that this be looked at and we certainly have been doing just that. He have a steering committee set up of some ·bfficials of government plus representatives . of the Ne~-Tfoundland Federation of t1unicipalities who are going through these tw'O reports , the w~elan and the Henley Report and are making recommendations on ~ periodic basis. Now we have not received anything on that to date so it certainly would be too late right now to get it in this session. 1..0524

June 3, 1977 Tape 3753 (Morning) PK- 1 HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have a question, and I am not sure who I should direct it to - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! CAPT. E. WINSOR: - the Minister of Transportation is out of town, and the Premier is out of his seat, and I do not-know whether it would apply to the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Municipal Affairs~ but there is a problem arising in the Musgrave Habour area where there is a paving programme going ahead. And the question is, is there a minimum for paving through a community?

Now I have been told that a contract was called for sixteen feet,of course,which is only a cow path, Eighteen feet is not much better where you have those large transports going through now, and the people there are asking for a minimum of twenty or twenty-one. Is there anyone who can answer that question1 AN HON. MEMBER: Are they local roads? CAPT. E. WINSOR: No. The government is paving the road through the community. MR. ROBERTS: The so-called main road. CAPT. E. WINSOR: The main road through the town. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. J.

DINN: So it is under T and C is what you are saying, han. member? CAPT. E. WINSOR: Yes. MR. J. DINN: Yes. Well I believe there are, you know, standards for a minimum width road, but I do not know what they are. I will have to take it as notice and try to find out, Mr. Speaker. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Would the minister undertake to check because the paving is going to start on Monday? MR. J. DINN: Certainly. 10525

June 3, 1977 Tape 3753 (Morning) PK- 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY HR. HICKMAN: been circulated. Mr. Speaker, the Orders of the Day have not yet !-fR. SPEAKER: They have not arrived. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, they have not arrived. SOME RON. MEMBERS: The Order Paper. MR. HICKMAN: The Order Paper, right, but there were five bills of notice which were given yesterday, and I would like to move first reading of them. The first bill is "An Act tc Amend The Community Councils Act, 1972." On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Community Ccuncils Act, 1972", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 75).

On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University (Pensions) Act,"read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 72) • On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1972", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 69). On motion a bill, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 63). On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act, 1975", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No.71). MR. SPEAKER: Motion 4.

The motion is that I do leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself into Committee of the Whole. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE :10526

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 37 54 Page 1 - ns llR. C!IAIP.:·IAN: Order, please! R. :SSOLUTIO~: That it is expecient to bri~g i~ a neas~re further to amend the Insurance Preraiurns Tax Act,

Chapter 179 of the Revised Statutes of :IJe~vfoundland, 1970. ~lH .• :~EARY: HR. CHAIR..MA~: :~R. DOODY: ~'lR.. ~EARY: ~·IR. DOODY: Hr. Chairman, clo·we get achance to debate this? The hon. }anister of Finance. You can have a slice in a minute. I am going to take a slice off that. I am certain that you ~.;ill. This is the increase in the insurance premium tax which ~vas announced in the budget of a few •.reeks ago, ~-1r. Chairman.

Under the Insurance Companies Act there is a seven per cent insurance premium charged on insurance policies, and many of the companies have been listing that as SSA tax,or as retail sales ta~,seven per cent, and there have been many enquiries, including myself,since my own household insurance had that notation on it. I brought it to the attention of the department \.rho informed me that it was not a retail sales tax.

It \vas an insurance companies tax and so we felt that we should bring the t\vo taxes to a ten per cent level which "tvould be a very convenient way to raise an extra $2.8 million of revenue in 1977-1978. This per cent is as of the first of June. :rR. ROBERTS : No, no! This \vas before the - :·IR. DOODY : No, no~ Seven per cent prior to this. TI<e tax was seven per cent on all insurance. :m.. ROBERTS: Are all included, automobile, fire - :m.. DOODY: Yes, that is right. HR. ROBERTS: You can still die untaxed. ~.ffi.

DOODY: Yes, you can die untaxed and unfortunately. :·Te try to get the pound of flesh off before you go. 1..0527 .:

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3754 Page 2 - ms l'ffi.. DOODY: We try to do it nre mortem rather than post mortem, because \ve would like to have hi!:l know that he is helping his country ~hen he is alive. >.8.. :10:SERTS : I suppose you could al•·rays levy a tax on dying. HR. DOODY: I do not knm.r. I guess that may be included in the first reading that 'V'as given today on the Embalmers and Funeral Directors Act. There may be something to that effect. But in any event,there ~as some confusion there, but that is certainly not the main reason for the increase.

The main reason for the increase, of course, is to raise that additional $2.8 million. It is unfortunate in many ways. All taxes are unfortunate, of course, but this one,it has been pointed out,that this is at a particular time when insurance rates generally are in question and the Department of Consumer Affairs are looking into insurance rates generally, and we have had quite a lot of public attention drawn to them.

However,that does not in any way diminish the need of the Province for revenue to carry on the essential services and so unfortunately this is one of the few remaining avenues that were open and we seized it, and it is our intention to ask the taxpayers to contribute that additional $2.8 ~illion through the insurance premiums tax. And 1vith these few words, Sir, I now give the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. ~eary) the opportunity to berate me for once again assailing the ~rivate ~erson. MR. CKA..IR..1-.1.AN: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: As usual, Sir, the han. gentleman predicted what I am going to do.

I consider this tax to be very unfair and unjust, and it is regressive and it creates a burden for the ordinary people of this Province. T·iell. all taxes do. 1J)528

-~ June 3, 1977, Tape 3755, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: But the minister had other avenues open to him. I said, Sir, several weeks ago and I have been saying ever since,that before the Minister of Finance and the government started socking it to the ordinary people of this Province, putting additional taxes on the ordinary people who are already overburdened with taxation, they should have started to do a little house cleaning and eliminated some of the extravagance and waste that this government has been noted for in the last four or five years. The minister wants $2.8 million.

The minister could have gone over his estimates, Sir, with a finetoothed comb, and the estimates of all the other government departments and the minister could have saved that much money in economies. For instance, the Norma and Gladys this year is going to cost $300,000. MR. ROBERTS: There is 10 per cent tax on the insurance on the Norma and Gladys too. MR. NEARY: No, she is not insured, Sir. I doubt if she is insured, Mr. Chairman. I doubt if they could get any company foolish ~nough to insure the Norma and Gladys.

Apart from the economy, Sir, there are all kinds of other avenues open to the minister to get this $2.8 million rather than to take it out of the bicks, out of the hides of the ordinary people of this Province. So I am going to vote against this bill, Mr. Chairman, although I know it will not do any good. I know the administration will use their majority, will use brute force to put this resolution and this bill through the House. The minister has already announced it in his Budget Speech, and no doubt before the morning is over this bill will be approved. But it will not be approved with my blessing.

I am against it. I think it is an 10529

'•,j June 3, 1977, Tape 3755, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: unfair and an unjust tax to place on the ordinary people of this Province. At a time when they are faced with record unemployment in this Province, record inflation, the highest cost of living in Canada. it seems that every time the government needs money they sock it to the ordinary people and it is not fair, Sir. It is not fair. The minister may not think that it is creating a hardship in the ordinary people but it is. It is an extra 3 per cent being added on to the insurance tax. It has gone from 7 per cent up to 10 per cent.

The minister could have gotten that money in some other way, as I say, by just exercising a little economy. When people are being asked in this day and . age to make sacrifices, the government itself shows no sign of economizing. They are still on a wild spending spree. They could very easily have gotten $2.8 million if they had just gone back ave~ the estimates with a finetoothed comb and thrown out some of the fat and the extravagance and waste that you can find in the estimates as you go through them. I am against this tax, Sir.

I am against any tax today that will create an additional burden on the ordinary people of this Province. The minister could have gotten S2.8 million out of the big corporations, the multi-nationals that are in this Province. I know the minister is going to get up and say, Oh,we are taxing the multi-nationals, we are taxing the big corporations now enough, what do you want to do, drive them out of the Province? Drive them out of the Province my eyeball. IOCC,with a gross profit last year of $20 million, are sure to pack up and leave if the minister extracted another million dollars or so out of them! 1.0530

June 3, 1977, Tape 3755, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this is something that bugs me. What about the Labrador Exploration Company? Is it Newfoundland and Labrador Exploration? MR. DOODY: Labrador Mininq and Exploration. MR. NEARY: Labrador Mininq and Exploration that do not do one thing in this Province but take out $15 million cr $20 million every year on the ore that is mined in Labrador City and Wabush and they do not put one cent back. ~Ihy did the minister not get his $2.8 million out of that crowd? All that money goes up to the mainland. AN HON. MEMBER: We are. We are. MR.

NEARY: We are not getting it, Sir, I asked the minister. We are not getting what we should be getting out of it. Labrador Mining and Exploration, Sir, in the last two or three years have made more profit than Iron Ore Company of Canada and the Wabush Mining Company put together, yet what taxes has it paid to this Province? Put it all together and Labrador Mining and Exploration have walked out of this Province with about $20 million in profits. What for? For nothing, Sir. Absolutely nothing. They contribute nothing to this Province but a few paltry dollars in taxes.

And th~ mini~t~r wi 11 not tell us, wi 11 not even tell us how much they are paying, how much is going into the public treasury in taxes. I put a question on the Order Paper. I do not know if that is one of the answers the minister gave me today or not, but I called up the minister's officials and they refused to give me the information. t·1R. DOODY: There is to be a breakdown. I gave you a total amount. 1..0531.

June 3, 1977, Tape 3755, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: A total amount is what I asked the minister•s officials for and they refused to give it to me. MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: Of all the tax revenue. I do not want all the - All the mining tax revenue. I do not want a total of a11 the tax revenue. I want to know how much Labrador Mining and Exploration is paying this Province in taxes as compared to how much they are taking out of this Province and carrying up to the mainland. You talk about a sweetheart deal. There is one if I ever saw one. We should put a surtax on that crowd.

They should not be allowed to take $10 million, or $15 million, or $20 million a year out of this Province for doing nothing. They do not do as much as lift a finger. Then the minister does not go after that crowd of big shots up in Say Street and up in the skysc~apers up in Toronto, No! He will go after the ordinary person and take it out of them. What about the big oil companies that are doing business in this Province and socking it to the ordinary person? What about getting after them and getting a few dollars out of them?

And the hotels and the airports that are charged taxes everywhere else but not here in this Province. No, go back and get after the ordinary person. This seems to be the _philosophy and the policy of this han. crowd. Sock it ·to the ordinary person. Leave out the elite. Leave them alone. Leave the high mucky-mucks. alone. Leave the lounge lizards alone, 10532

El June 3, 1977 Tape 3756 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Neary: Take it out of the backs and out of the hides of the ordinary people. And I am not against the government getting money. Sir, the minister is likely to get up now and say, Oh we need the money and we need $2.8 million to .keep her afloat and to meet our bond issues and all this sort of thing. I know the government has to have money but this is not the way to get it by adding another t~~ to the already heavily over-taxed ordinary person of this Province. So, Mr.

Speaker, I know the government is not going to reconsider, it is useless and pointless for me to ask the minister to reconsider and go after the big shots and the multinationals and the corporations and the wealthy people, the millionaires, to after them instead of going - and I can hear the minister gett~ng up now saying, Oh the corporations will pay the tax the saoe as the ordinary person. They will pay 10 per cent on their insurance rates. They will pay the same as the millionaire. He will pay 10 per cent. But is that fair?

The millionaire can well afford it, the multinationals and the big corporations can well afford it, but the ordinary person cannot afford it. Mr. Speaker, every ordinary person in this Province today is almost ready to give up they are so discouraged, to give up work, to give up,period. they cannot cope. MR. SMALLWOOD: HR. NEARY: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. NEARY: I say half the Province is on tranquilizers, They do not know where it is all going to end. This bill provide for equality of sacrifice- Equality of sacrifice~ -by the taxpayers. The hon. gentleman - This bill? No! It does not provide equality of sacrifice.

It is 10 per cent on fire insurance, automobile insurance, and the like. So that means that the ordinary person, the one who can ill-afford it)will pay 10 per cent, the millionaire will pay 10 per cent, the multinationals will pay 10 per cent. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. member remind himself of the classic remark of Anatole France,who said that the Law in its majestic equally forbade the millionaire and the pauper alike to sleep under the public bridges; both of them were forbidden to become 1..0533

June 3, 1977 Tape 3756 (Morning) Mr. Smalh ·7ood: derelicts in this majestic equality. majestic equality? Is this the same kind of HR. NEARY: Well,r would not say that, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: It is identical. MR. NEARY: I have tripped over these people the hon. PK - 2 gentleman is talking about on the Seine ·_- .s.nd I think they were allowed there. Now when De Gaulle came back in power he tried to move all these people,derelicts and millionaires and the like, writers, journalists, artists, all down sleeping with newspapers over their faces, The han. gentleman has probably seen them. MR. DOODY: . MR. NEARY: MR.

DOODY: MR. NEARY: Millionaires? Millionaires down on the Seine. Sleeping under the bridges? They opted out. A few years ago they opted out of society • De Gaulle came back in po>ler - MR. ROBERTS: They took their millions with them. MR. NEARY: - and De Gaulle came back in power, while they were down there they were usually drinking. They were drinking wine all day long and a loaf of bread, and I remember going to the marketplace one morning. MR. DOODY: wine. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: I assumed the millionaires had a higher quality of No. They were just opting out - Nothing under a They were opting out.

I remember going to the marketplace one morning when they were unloading the produce and they were all up earning their few francs so they could buy a drop of wine and a loaf of bread and go back on the Seine, and then De Gaulle tried to move them into an institution. He built an institution for them and moved them all in and they stayed there twenty-four hours and they all went back on the Seine again. But, Sir, this is an unfair - 10534

June 3, 1977 Tape 3756 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Something like New Gower Street. MR. NEARY: But, Sir, this is an unfair tax. And what they should have done, Mr. Speaker, the insurance companies in this Province~ thanks to this government, thanks to compulsory insurance have struck a real bonanza, They found a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The government through compulsory automobile insurance have given the insurance companies a licence to print their own money, and we have been trying to get an investigation into the insurance rates in this Province, and we cannot seem to do it.

The Minister of Consumer Affairs told he there last week that he has the report of the Internal Committee on his desk, but he has not had time to look at it. When he looks it over he may or may not let me see it. He - 1.0535

3' 1977 Tape no. 37 57 ?aze 1 - ::ts :~r. :Teary. r;J.ay let the House see it, and he ~ay not, no prorr.ises, comr;J.itments. Yet this is the adillinistration that told t~e :_:Jeople of this Province that t:.ere Hould be an investigation or a cor:Jmission of enquiry to i:westigate insurance rates in this Province to see if '"e v7ere in line \vi th the rest of Canada. Because, Your Honour may remember that when the owLJ.ers, when the principals of the insurance companies - remember there are only brokers here in this Province HR. ROBERTS: No, no. &\I :-IO~. HE·1BER: ~To, no, not always . ~-1R.

ROBERTS: There are a number of local insurance companies. ~IR. NEARY: Hell, generally speaking most of them are brokers. And when the owners, the principals came do~vn here to the hearings they said that the rates here ~.;ere almost identical to the rates in other parts at Canada, but it was the commissions and the brok.ers that were socking it to the local people. I do not know if hon. gentlemen remember that, but I was at that hearing.

I could hardly believe my ears when I heard these gentlemen come out and say, Well, here are the rates in Newfoundland, here are the rates in Hontreal, and here are the rates in British Columbia. And there ~-;as just a small gifference, minor differences in the rates. So it was the local brokers and commission agents that ~.rere socking it to the local people. And there is where the minister could have gotten his $2.8 million. Get it out of that crowd that spend half their Hinters dm-m in Florida. XR. DOODY: Careful now. HR. NEARY: ~.Jell, the han. gentleman is trying to sell his condominium.

Is the' han. minister interested?- MR. DOODY: Interested, but it is out of my league. MR. NEARY: It is not a bargain. It is not a fire sale price~ I do not think. 1.0536

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3757 Page 2 - ms l1Ft. NEARY • But, Sir, looking at the Ne,.;rfoundland Gazette practically every '"eek neH insurance companies are being forned, usually friends of the administration, most of them. I follow, I look at the names. HR. DOODY: We have got a lot of friends. HR. NEARY: Well, maybe they ~ave got a lot of friends, but t~ey very easily could have gotten $2.3 million.They could have gotten more than that.

They could have gotten double that amount out of the insurance brokers and the insurance companies, but no, Sir, they did not take that route. ~o: Sock it to the ordinary person, ' make h:i.m pony up the $2.8 million that the minister wanted, add on another three per cent on to his fire insurance and his car insurance. ~'ffi.. SY.:.ALLHOOD: How would they get it out of the insurance people ? }ffi. DOODY: They already ~re, Sir, under the corporation tax. MR. NEARY: Increase the corporation tax. That is all they have to do. l'B.. DOODY: We have already increased it beyond - HR.

NEARY: Does my han. friend realize that most of the insurance that is sold in this Province is sold on a commission basis by brokers? We only have a handful of local companies. And these brokers, I was down at the·hearing when all these fellows with the pinstriped suits and the briefcases waltzed into the hearing, and they all sat down with their lawyers and their accountants and their actuaries, and I was there, this little fellow from Quigley's Line,sitting do1rn listening to them all giving evidence - MR.. S(.f.:\LLHOOD: A pinstriped suit? MR. NEARY: I did not have a pinstriped suit, no.

I had on my lumber jacket that my han. friend criticizes so much. ~·1R. DOODY: The .red one? ~~-· NEA~Y: The red one that '"as given to me three Christmases ago. 1.053?

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3757 :?~ge 3 - ms HR. DOODY: That is a nica jacket. I like that. ~3.. ~EARY: I ao getting great ~ileage out of it great wear out of it. YJ'.. DOODY: '\'T"fi'A.""."'~""iT• a.·.-.:.:-~ · .. .L. A good. jacket. 3ut any·.·.r ay~for t:.e ber..efit of ::1y .:o::. friend ~rom Twillingate, t ~at the principals of these companies, the mmers of these insurance companies said '1;·7as this - they gave us the rates,as a matter of fact.

I nearly fell off the seat when I heard them say that there is very little difference in insurance rates in ~e~rloundland as compared to British Columbia, and so the question r..;ras put to these gentlemen, ~·!ell, hm·7 come ;v-e are paying sue~ high rates i::J. :~ec.;foundland? :·Jell, they said they could not explain it. It was probably as a result of the brokers or the commissions or the local agents. Does the han. Premier realize that? The rates are almost equivalent here as they are in Hontreal, Toronto and British Columbia but our local boys are the fellmvs who are socking it to us. HR.

Sl-fALL\-lOOD: -The rates are the same but the charges are different. XR. NEARY: The co~missions - tlR. SXALL'IJOOD: The charges. UR. N"EARY: The charges. :fR. S~L<\LUJOOD: ~· !hat the public are charged. !~<!R .• NEARY: ~·!hat the public are charged here. That is why we \vant an investigation into insurance rates in this Province that we cannot get this hon. crowd over here to give us: The Minister of Consumer Affairs says, We are going to have an internal investigation. That is not good enough. I'le ~vant a full- fledged,independent,impartial investigation.

The minister should have gone after that crowd and got his $2.8 million. I would like to hear the minister's answer to that when the minister gets up to close the debate. I am not out to tear strips of hide off the hon. gentleman just for the sake of criticizing the poor Hinister of Finance's struggle in trying to keep her afloat. l'ffi.. DOODY: Thanks be to God! 1..0538

UJ.J.e 3 , 19 7 7 Tape no. 375 7 Page 4 - rr,s MR. NEARY: And here we ·have, ~vhile the minister is doing that,we have NAPE do~m here saying what? ~ve are bankrupt, on the verge of bankruptcy, and the Premier refused to go do~m, the employer, the Pre!Il.ier who is the employer, refused to go down to speak at the opening of the NAPE convention, and here they are coming out and saying, The Province is belly-up, we are bankrupt. "MR. SNALLWOOD: If I were Premier and they were saying that, I would not go near them either. ~m.. DOODY: MR. NEARY: was invited. MR. SNA.LLWOOD: MR. lTEARY That is right.

But they did not say it before the Premier So they said it because he would not come? No. I do not know whether that was the :10539

June 3,1977 Tape 3758 - Horning AR-1 HR. NEARY: reason for saying it or not but this makes the ?'!inister of Finance's job all that more difficult. And I am not denying the fact that the minister does not need money but, for Heaven's sake! when the minister needs money in the future look for other sources to get it, other ways to get it rather than taking it out of the hides of the ordinary people of this Province. HR. CHAIRMAN: Hon.Minister of Finance. NR. DOODY: I just would like to respond to some of the extremely well-delivered and highly histrionic ~xclamations of ardor from my friend from LaPoile.

The simPlification of the case as presented by him of course is absolutely ideal and the idea of socking it to the big corporations is an absolutely delightful one. The unfortunate case of the matter in Newfoundland is that we have so few large corporations to whom we should sock it,and the more 't;;e sock it the fewer corporations ~Je are going to have.

He have the highest corporate income tax rate in Canada right now and I think if there was any possible or reasonable way of doing it in the interest of the future development of the Prpvince and so on the corporate tax should be reduced~if anything~as an incentive to get these people in here to invest their money. That being as it is, if these insurance companies are making these huge, excessive profits that the hon.member refers to, then have no fear that they are well and truly taken care of by the corporation tax.

The federal government,looking after the provinces~or in conjunction with provinces in collecting the income tax. with the exception of t~e ~rovinces of Quebec and Ontario, are well and truly able to slice of any excess profits or any excess flesh that some insurance company might make. If in the event that they do this thing,then certainly the Province of Newfoundland will get its share. That does not change the situation one iota with regard to the ins·urance premiums tax, The fact is not changed. The fact is that it was one of 10540

June 3,1977 Tape 3753 - Horning AH-2 HR. DOODY: the very feH avenues that were available to raise some tax, It is a tax of equal application, It is true that it is less onerous on the nillionaire than it is on the person on a fixed income or un a lm..- income or on a Middle income. Unfortunately that is true of all the taxes that the provinces have the ri~ht to levy. The most regressive tax of all is the tax from 1:o1hich the Province gains the most of its revenue,and that is the retail sales tax. There could not possibly be a more regressive tax thanthat the ten per cent we charge on retail sales tax.

It is a tax that certainly is more onerous on the low income person. But revenue has to come from somewhere, ~·r. Chairman, and unfortunatelv the resources available, the taxation areas available to this Province are rather limited and are becoming more limited all the time and we are rapidly running out of areas from which we can gain re]lenue .. That may very well be a good thing,because if you have not got it hopefully,eventually,we will start to learn that you cannot spend it. ~m. ROBERTS: Yes,but the only problem with that argument is where do ~ve not spend it? HR.

DOODY: Fell,this is the area , the conundrum in which we find ourselves. I notice the president of the Board of Trade made a speech to Rotary fairly recently in which he expressed very well the fact that the Province has very little flexibility. Lnfortunately the headlines said the Province is inflexible,but what the gentleman meant and what he s2id in his text was that the Province has no flexibility in 'the disbursement of its funds. Our funds are committed to social and other ongoing - '.·ffi. ROBERTS : Ninety-eight per cent of the budget? HR. DOODY: Just about.

Hell,well in excess of eighty per cent certainly is completely tied in and there is nothing that T"e can do about it., Debt retirement, health-care, 'tvelfare - HR. S¥.ALLHOOD: Did you hear Premier Hatfield's announcement that everybody in Canada shortly have to start living a lot lower on 10541. .:

June 3,1977 Tape 3758 - aorning AH-3 }ffi.. SUALLHOOD: the hog. HR. DOODY: That is right. Peoole have been saving that for so long, you will not find anybody to 'N'hom you speak who '"ill disas:1;ree with you until you start saying that your ox is the one that is going to be gored,old chap~and then you '-1111 hear the vicious screechs and that is true of everybody in this House as well as everyone in each of our districts. MR. ROBERTS: Everybody is in favour of priorities as long as their wishes get the priority. ~·{R. DOODY : That is unfortunately correct.

All of those people here in this House and in other parts of the Province ~-1ho advocate restraint and say that we should cut back taxes and we should cut back spending and ~.ye should tighten our belts will not hesitate to sign any petition that you bring to their door tomorrow asking for the largest amount of money. ~4R • SMALUJOOD : There is an exception. HR. DOODY: Hell, the bon. member for 'f'l,7illingate does not bring in petitions for the spending of money,that is absolutely correct.

I think the only petitions the hon.gentleman brings in are for the closing of taverns on Sundays, thus cutting our revem·e The hon.member for LaPoile mentioned the Labrador Mining and Exploration ~omoany~Limited and the sweetheart deal and the huge rip-off and the great profits and so ~n 1.0542

June 3, 1977 3759 Page 1 - ms ~-tr, Doody. ~""ld ':lhat have you. The history of Labrador ~·~ining and Exploration Company and its agree.rnent ~.;ith the Province goes back, I think, before the previous administration. ;:P... ROBERTS: Oh, noJ It ~.;as Commission of Government, the late 1930's. ::R. DOODY: Commission of Government, that is right, before the previous administration took office~ I think it goes back to the late 1920's or the early 1930's. i!R. ROBERTS: No, it was about 1936, 1937, 1938, around there. :rP .... DOODY: Let me think. ::~o, I think it ~.;as in the 1940's.

But anT.;ay that is secondary. 1Vhat is important is that they did have huge tracts of land up there. There Here no 'conditions. They could do with it as they wished, and they did indeed for quite some time do so. ::iR. ;?.O:i3ERTS: Oh, no, there were conditions. Oh, yes, they shed the ~mole ~·labush Hines area. 1-:R. DOODY: Yes, they shed. They had so much time in which to shed it that they could pretty '.Jell look at the perspective areas. 1·fJ\. ROBE"R.TS: But they did let go. ~~.

DOODY: They did let go a bunch of moose pasture, and then there are a fe~-1 rocks up there and a fe":v turds and \vha t not Hhich came back. They turned up a few deposits and they have been very successfully developed. The ne\·7 Hineral Acreage Tax Act is desi3ned to look after these absentee mmers,if you -.;.;ill, and t~ey have been during the past fe~.,r years spending some money on exploration, not on C.:=veloi1r:J.ent. But they have bee:J. in their exploration processes )ringing to the attention 0 f ? eople like ~·iabush : ~ir..es and roc tte fact that these perspective a"!:'eas are there.

I do ::::~.ot defend Labrador ~lining, they can speak for t:1.emselves, but Javelin are in exactly c-,n analogous position '\·lith respect to ~·7abush ~-1ines. They are getting, royalties: Canadian Javelin .. 10543

Jur:e .J ) 1977 Tape no. 3759 Page 2 - :n.s DOCDY: That is right. ?.03:CRTS: - ~dthout doing ai:lything noH that the ~reject is developed. ~8.. DOODY: That is right. ~-IR . ROBERTS : So if you are going to swinge Labrador :fining then let us swinge Javelin, too. It is the same thing. :m. DOODY: It all comes under the same legislation. The Price and ASARCO properties out in Central 0lew·foundland. They ~<ere getting fifty per cent of the 3uchans ~ Ii;:1es all tho s e years. ".fH. . DOODY: They are in the same category.

But these peoplE?: are all being taxed n0\·7, and 1vill be insofar as one can in the light of 'tvhatever statutory agreements are entered into at the time.

And, you know, it has been said here before and I ·.;rill continue to say it ,that you 'do not take statutor y agreements, tear them up and throw them away simply because somebody made what appears nO't-7 to be or seems to be or obviously is a .bad decision ~Thether it was made in 1932 or 1946 or 1953 or whatever it 'tvas you still have to do business with the business ~vorld, and you are not going to do it if you do not have any credibility in the business 'tvorld. So these things have to be handled as responsibily as possible in the interests of the future of the Province.

I am ~uite sure you could make quite a hit for yourself and quite a name fer yourself if you suddenly started to make all these big dramatic moves, but it will be a very short-lived success,I am afraid. There is very little to be said about this particular tax. That is regressive. All these taxes that are applied to the individual are regr~ssive. I do not suppose there is any tax really that is not.

But the SSA tax, this type of tax here is particularly obnoxious. 3ut the fact remains that we do need t he money, and r..;re have to have it, and this is a relatively - and I say, 'relativel y ' - painless way of getting some revenue. ~Je have removed the SSA tax from clothing, -from fuel oil, but unfortunately it is still in effect on electric heat, :1.0544

J:.~:1.e 3, 1977 Tape no . 375 9 Page 3 - ms :tr. Joody . and that is one ~ve have been ;.;restlin g Hith . I just for~et nou ~oto~ muc~ revenue co:nes to t :1e Pr ovince from the SSA on electric heat . 11: is an unfair situation as it nm-1 stands. It is t!le only heat:!. :1g area tnat is subj ect to SS.\ tax, but I do no t t hink the Province is i n a position - certainly not this year and pro~ably no t next year - to change that situat i on . An~vay , Nr . Chairman , t~a t is t he situation 0::1 that particular t ax .

It is all very easy to say t~at ':ve should 30 through the e stimates >-lith a finetoothed comb and clea r out all t he de bris . It is a pi:y t he ho:1 . ::ocse die not hav e an op portunity to see t~e estin ates 1..0545

June 3, 1977 Tape 3760 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Dood,•: before we went through them with a fin~toothed comb. SOME RON. MEI1BER:S: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: That is right. They used to come up in truck loads, now they are bringing them up in wheelbarrows. So the situation is as I have stated, Sir, and I do not know if anybody else wish to make any comment on that particular resolution. ~1R. ROBERTS: I1R •. DOODY: MR. ROBERTS: Ur.

Chairman, There are three or four others there as well. - I would like to say a few other words on two aspects, first of all on the more general nature of the minister's remarks, and then perhaps a few words specifically on the resolution or the bill now before the Committee. The budget debate has not as yet been called, and I hope it will be called next week, and I hope it will be called in a way that we can have some meaningful budget debate because I think the types of questions which the minister touched upon in his remarks are very real questions.

I think any of us who is the least bit concerned with the future of this Province, and I think every member of the House is concerned with the Province and so we all ought to be, and anyone of us who is concerned with the Province, Mr. Chairman, is very much aware of the situation which the minister outlines. It is really the basic financial situation. We can talk all we want about this type of expenditure or that kind of t~x, and that in its place is all very fine, but the basic problem is the one which the minister outlined.

I have now had an opportunity,as have a number of my colleagues,to see government from two sides. A number of years ago I was one of those who had to wrestle with the estimates which then came up in the yellow covers, The Cabinet estimates they were called, the draft estimates,were bound in yellow covers before we got budgets -·with fancy coloured photographs on the front, a fancy 1.0546

June 3, 1977 Tape 3760 (Horning) Mr. Roberts: colour photograph which is a little hard to take in an era of austerity ~ because there are a few thousand dollars to be saved there. But in any event we had the business of wrestling with the estimates, Now we have seen it from the other side. And that is a good experience 7too. The .Problem I am not sure PK - 2 is capable of solution. I have watched the present administration wrestle with it for the last four or five years, and they have had their able men in the Finance Department, the present minister, his predecessor, Mr. Crosbie, an able man.

I will pass over Mr. Val Earle in decent silence. But, you know, they have had some able men wrestling with the problem. And the problems now are worst than ever before. The deficit continues to grow. I was just looking at th~ tables in this year's budget and last year's budget with the total debt position of the Province, and even though they have been restated-! have my own thoughts as to why they are restated - the numbers do not tally,very interestingly. They appear to be a little less although in actual fact they are greater.

But, you know, the debt continuous to grow, our tax burden continues to grow, and yet our services are not only not expanding they are barely being kept at present levels. And I do not say that in any critical sense at this stage, but, you know, anybo~y connected with hospitals, and anybody connected with the school systems acknowledges that dollars are tight, that services are being run in a way and in circumstances that are pretty close to the bone. I think there were perhaps some lush times.

There was certainly a lot of fat when this progress began,- it began about 1968 really in this Province - the process of trimming out the excess, Now I am not sure it has not gone past the paint of no return. My own thought is that the one area left where we really could make some cuts is in the total number of the public service. It has grown immensely. I am not so sure it is terribly productive, and I sometimes think that if we were to look at it 1.0547

June 3, 1977 Tape 3760 (Morning) Mr. Robert$: rigorously we could find some very real savings in the public service. I think we are over staffed and I think we are under served, I am not just talking about the infamous secretariats. The tip of the iceberg, they perhaps personify and exemplify the problem. 10548 PK - 3

June 3, 1977 , Tape 3761 (Morning) PK - 1 Hr. Roberts: The problem is real, Sir, and I think anybody who is going to talk about the financial proble!llS of this Province has got to come to grips with it, because we are paying these heavy taxes with every prospect of them getting better - I am sorry not getting better,getting heavier, getting worse. I say now when the minister brings in his budget next year, if he is still the minister, if he is still the Minister of Finance,that there will be tax increases next year.

There have been tax increases in every year in which this government bought in a budget with the exception of the pre-election budget which of course was hoaxed up, it was a fake budget, and we saw the true budget when the present Minister of Finance bought in his first budget in November 1975 after the election. The Spring budget in that year was a complete piece of flununoxery, and fakery, and hoaxery. It was a fraud. It was inte::ded to defraud the people of the Province. Whether it succeeded or not I suspect judgment has not yet been rendered.

And the Minister of Municipal Affairs may query that, but if he looks back he will find out that what I say is quite true. The budget in the Spring of 1975, the only one which Mr. Val Earle presented as Minister of Finance,was a deliberate attempt to deceive the people of this Province with respect to the financial situation of the government of this Province. But be that as it may, Mr. Chairman, the problem is still there. The expenses are going up inevitably, and inordinarily and inexorably. We have no choice except to find the money, and I am not sure where we go from here.

And I sometimes despair, I sometimes feel that the House is completely irrelevant because we have yet to talk about this problem in this House this session. We have talked about all sorts of things, but at no time, with the exception of the energy estimates,where we were able to deflect the Minister of Energy from his grandiloquent thoughts and bring him back to the reality and to talk about this energy tax, at no time have we come to grips with the basic problem of this Province; 10549 . ~ ... --:_

June 3, 1977 Tape 3761 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: with the productivity which my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) talks about often, and he is right to talk about it; with the fact mentioned by the Minister of Finance that our corporate taxes are the highest in Canada, and that has an effect on industry. So are our personal income taxes.

You know, it is worth recording that for every thousand dollars of income that Your Honour earns or anyone of us earns here we are paying $170 more in tax on that than they are in Alberta, which happens to have the lowest personal income tax rate in this country, that our tax rate will be 43.5 points after these changes go through. MR. DOODY: We got a resolution - r MR. ROBERTS: Yes, but it will be. · I mean the resolution will go through, the government do have the majority, and they will have their way. In Alberta it is 26 points.

Now, you know, there are good and sufficient reasons why Alberta is low, and I guess there are reasons why we are so high. The point I am making is not that; <;L. the point I am making is what a terrific handicap this is to this Province in trying to attract people to come here. God knows we do not have the best weather in Canada; we sometimes have the worst weather in Canada. We pay other prices for living here. Most of us are delighted to pay the price~ I mean,I pay a far higher price and so I guess would every member of the House to live in Newfoundland. Delighted to do it, honoured to do it.

But when it comes to attracting people~ I know national companies that have great difficulty in persuading people to come Newfoundland; the high price of housing, the very high price of housing is a deterrent; the incredibily high personal taxes are a deterrent~ the high cost of 1..0550 ..:.

June 3, 1977 Tane no. 3762 Page 1 - ms Nr. Roberts. food. "!ou k....'1mv, you could 'go on through a long litany, but it is beco-;ning nore and more obvious that this is a very real handicap to this Province in its effort to develop, to attract people h~re, and to hold our mvn people. The out-migration from this Province is both frightening and grmving. HR. DOODY: That is understandable. HR. ROBERTS: The.Ninister of Finance says, understandable. rJell, in too many cases it is. And I have yet to find anybody ':vha has J.eft this Province happily.

HoT>T many tines have I heard from constituents or fa~ilies of constituents or other ~eople t'hrou~hout the P!:'ovince \vho :'lave said, Look, John is in Alberta, he ':·lent out there. The Great Bonanza last year ~vas not Brooklyn. That was in the 1920's. It Has not Toronto. That w·as in t!1e 1950's. It "Jas Baston in the 1930's or t:"le early years 'of the ce:Ltur7. it is Alberta. And Jol:.n is out there, bm: he is eating his ~ -..s.art out. He 1vants to come hot:J.e, and he will come home 1.;-ith half the money, but he could not even get that. You k...J.ow, our people ;,7ant to stay here.

And so to me it is part of the ?roble::n, and it is gro\ving ever worse. This year's budget •.rill make it 7 ,Torse. This particular tax ~vill make it ~vorse. The tax on corporations certainly does not encourage an entrepreneur to come here. If you could come here or come to Al~erta or come to Ontario, if you got your choice - the scales Heavens knm-ls are <:veigh ted against us any<-'Tay industrially or econooically.

He are at the far end of the Canadian distribution system. ~ve have that water gap across the Straits and even though it is allegedly, you know, dollar for dollar the same as rail charges, it is an handicap to industry. It is a ~andicap to anybody trying to sell in the Canadian market. You knm.;r, >ve have all these problems, and then on top of it we are being forced into higher taxes. :Jmv the insurance tax, the one before t~e Committee. · I could get as caloric, I Guess, as the gentle~an from LaPoile. I might or might not be as histrionic as he ,.-,ould oe 10551

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3762 Page 2 - ms ?·~r. Roberts. about this particular tax. I do not like taxes, and I certainly do not like this one. ~obody likes taxes. The problem is that the government have got to find the money. The thing that concerns me about_ the insurance tax. it is not as regressive as some taxes because at least it is related to \vhat one spends, and what one spends is related in a sense to what one has.

And if I choose to have a house that costs $50,000, and I want to insure it for $50,000, I am going to pay a higher premium and, therefore, a higher tax than if I choose to have a house that is ,.;orth $30,000. CAPT. HINSOR: Say an insurance company vlill put a value on your house) and charge you the e~tra premium. ?-iR. ·ROBERTS: No, ;·!ell, I mean the insurance company; I say to· my friend from Fogo, the insurance company after all are e~tering into a contract.

It is a matter of bargaining on both sides, and they have to be satisfied on the value of the house just as they have to be satisfied on the claim if it should come to be a claim. Some people think that if your house burns down you automatically get the value of the insurance. That is not so. I mean, the insurance company may or may not pay depending on \vhether they feel it is justified or not and whether the money is there. What is the other thing that happens? Sometimes they ~rill say, your house is damaged, we can get it fixed for $10,000.

T~7e we will give you $10,000 or we \vill fix it ourself and if you say it is going to cost $20,000 that is your problem. We only give you $10,000. CAPT. WINSOR: This year they have increased the values 'lvithout even asking. :HR. ROBERTS: Xy friend from Fogo says that they have increased the values, and I guess they have, because I am told that the property insurance in this Province in the last few years has been very much a 1..0552

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3762 Page 3 - r;1.s \~r. Roberts. losing proposition from the insurer's point of vie~. And I hold :10 ~rief for the insurance i::J.dustry but you l:T.lm-T, let us remember that they ere in business with the aim and intention of trying to mal<.e a profit and unless they, at least, break even they are not going to be in business very long. And if they are writing insurances which cost th~~ more in claims and administration, than they are taking in in premiums, then they are not going to make a profit.

In an insurance scheme, the very essence of an insurance scheme is that the pre~iums are related to th~ risk and that the sum of the ~reniums i::J. any give::J. y~ar is enough to pay the claims uith a reasonable reserve against future claiMs. And so my concern is not just with the l"''TP.l of the rates. That is something that has to be accepted. ~ '1y concern really is ~·lith the ~·lay in \vhich the rates are set.

And here I have a very real quarrel T,vith the ;sovernnent, and it is tne same one as the gentleman from LaPoile has touched upon and that is their stubborn, unyielding,blind refusal~ r;hic~ I attribute to the :1inister of Consumer Affairs unfortunately he is not here, but he is as stubborn as a mule and as unyielding as a nule and on this issue he is as bright as the average mule - because he has refused to allm..r any proper investigation i-ato the situation of the profits. ~rmv that is particularly relevant. I do not think anybody is gain; after the home ins~rance, the real property insurers.

The cancer-a is ~,lith automobiles, because as my friend from LaPoile has pointed out again, you knm.;, rJle are all required nm.r by la'v to have automobile insurance, and so we should be. It is a good rule, a very sensi~le rule. I voted for it. I·have advocated it long before the Minister of Justice aroused himself from his lethagry and got the bill drafted and brought into the Rouse. It is a very good principle indeed. But the government have not made the principle effective. The :-iinister of Transportation's administration of this particular aspect of the ;1otor Registration division has been 10553

.... June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3762 Page 4 - ms :~r. Roberts. lamentably bad. You know, there are people driving out all over Ne~.rfoundland today with no insurance, no insurance at all, and the government are not doing the first tbing about it. TI1 ev are doing nothing about it. It is an offence to do it. If you are caught, you get a fine. They have grappled with the problem of administering it and they have just fudged it and given it up. The l·1inister of Trartsportation and Communications has put up some lame excuses.

There cught to be and in fact there is a system whereby ~ve can find out exactly \vho has insurance or not. And if ~.re are going to have a law that you must have insurance, T.ve have got to enforce it. And since we cannot stop every car every day and check~the only way we can do it is through the insurance companies, He should be requiring the insurance companies to notify the registrar or another official as we so wish every time and insurance policy is cancelled, every time.

Because what people are doing - it has become open now, and we are told it is noticeable - they are going in and they are buying an insurance policy and paying, say, a month's premium on it, You can buy all sorts of insurances today for a monthly premium~ The day when you had to pay an annual premium is gone, and now they ~'/ill sell it to you by the month.

And they are taking their little pink or green or yellow or whatever kind of slip it ·is they get and they go up to the Registrar of Motor Vehicles, and they pass that in and accordingly they are qualified to get their drivers' licence, and they get it, and then they go and they just do not pay the second month's premium, and the insurance laps and nobody is ever told about it. So you no~v have a driver rafting around the roads of the Province with no insurance on him. Sure he is in defiance of the law, 1.0554

june 3, 1977, Tape 3763, Page 1 -- apb t1R. ROBERTS: and if he is caught he is in trouble. But little consolation that is to the person he runs into or the person he runs down. Then we are back into the old unsatisfied judgement fund and all of the difficulties in there. The government have to find a better system. This insurance tax premium increase is going to raise, we are told, another $2.8 millions. I auery that estimate. The government were 10 per cent out in their estimate last year. They overestimated 1ast year significantly. I have the figure here, Mr. Chairman.

Last year they told us they would be getting $5,400,000 from the insurance premiums tax. They actually got under $5 million. They got $4,960,000, abou~ $500,000 less. About 10 per cent less. A significant error. The esti11ate thi.s year is $8.57 million which is not the $2.8 million increase the Minister of Finance has talked about, it is $2.6 million. I do not know where the extra $200,000 has come from. If the government are $850,000 out this year, that is the 10 per cent.

But still, it is a couple of million dollars at least and I would like to see part of it devoted to the administration of the insurance scheme. If we are going to have compulsory insurance for cart - and we ought to, we certainly ought to - then let us administer the system and let us mak~ it work properly. If the Minister of Transportation and Communications is not capable of devising a scheme, or presiding ov~r the devising of a scheme to do that, then let us get a new Minister of Transportation and Communications or give it to some other minister to administer. But the present situation is ridiculous.

It is insane of the government to allow it and yet they are allowing it because they are doing nothing abcut it . ... n __ _ ~.U..J~i:) .:

June 3, 1977, Tape 3763, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Now, also, I would like to see an investigation of the profits of the people selling automobile insurance here. We had a board s e t u p • [·1 r . 3 e r t B u t t a n d t\-1 o o r t h r e e o t h e r stalwarts of the Tory Party, fine men, served on it and did their best. At the end of their first year they submitted a report in which they said, as I recall it -the report was tabled here in the House - they said, We recommend the board go out of existence because it cannot do its job properly; it ought to be done by some other agency of the government. MR .

HI C Kf~A N : The Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. ~1R. ROBERTS: Yes. But the insurance board said - it must be the first time in history other than when the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells) recommended there be no Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs~ this is the first time in history,to my knowledge, that a group that had been set up by a government has recommended its own disbandment. I think for that reason alone 7 if no other, they ought to be commended and perhaps enshrined in the Institute of Public Administration for this Province. But, Sir, the problem is a real one.

The insurance companies may or may not be making profits. I do not know if they are or not. I know that insurance on houses took a rapid increase this year. The premium on my home went from, I think it was,$300 to $540. I called up the ~entleman from whom I buy insurance and asked him what had happened and he told me that the rates had just gone up because the companies had been losing money. I said, .. That is fine. Do you mind if I shop around? 11 He said, .. Of course not ... I called,'! suppose, ten or fifteen brokers, described the risk, described the type of insurance I needed and ·os~s I . uu

.. June 3, 1977, Tape 3763, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: I do not think there was ten dollars difference in the quotes that came back. So I stayed with the firm I had been with for a number of years because they give good service, and if their rates are comparable then what is the point in changing? So there is no real competition in it that I can find. furthermore, there are very real doubts about the profits they are making, so I think we shoul~ have an investigation.

We do not need a judicial enquiry, we do not need a witch hunt, we do not need an adversary proceeding, but we do need a full and an impartial investigation. I think that is the only way we are going to rest the fears that people have raised. If their fears are justified, as they well may be, then an investigation will bring out the facts and we can act and act promptly. Other than that, Mr. Chairman, I do not like the tax. I suppose if the government want to force a vote I will vote against it and ask my colleagues to do the same, :10557 . ---:

June 3, 1977 Tape 3764 (Horning) PK - 1 !1r. Roberts: because we do not think they are running the affairs of the Province properly. I think before they come before the House and ask for tax increases they ought to apply a little economy to themselves.

I do not know what the economies would amount up to, but I think it is not only important that the government do the right thing, but they appear to do the right thing, and I - think the Minister of Finance would be the very first to agree that the government have made no real effort in many little things, you know, things like the Nanna and Gladys • It is not a lot of dollars.

It is not going to solve the minister's financial problems if the Norma and Gladys were to be put ashore somewhere and beached and either made into a museum or left to rot or sold or something, any more than it is not going to help solve the Province's financial problems if the Gander cabin or the cabin on the - what is the one in Labrador? Adlatok? - the Adlatok River is sold. By the way,if the minister would like to make a modest wager, I am on the side that says they will never be sold.

The Premier has very piously announced the government have decided to put them out on tenders, but he perhaps advisedly says, we are not I going to sell them unless we get a reasonable price. And I have a modest wager of five cents which says that they will never be sold, and they will continue to be operated and it will take $40,000 or $50,000 a year, and that is not a lot of money. It provides a job for the Minister of Health's brother,is it? or brother-in-law? and that is a good thing. That is one less unemployed person in the Province.

But, you know, it is the effect it gives, and I feel very strongly about it. MR. H. COLLINS: He is no relative of mine. MR. ROBERTS: Is he not? I thought it was the minister's brother or brother-in-law. Who is manager of the Gander Lodge? MR. H. COLLINS: He is no relation to me. MR. ROBERTS: Who is the manager of the Gander Lodge? MR. DOODY: The gentleman who owns the cabins down further. MR. H. COLLINS: Tae lady from Glenwood is the manager of the cabin. 1.0558

June 3, 1977 HR. ROBERTS: the manager? ::m. H. COLLINS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. H. COLLINS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. DOODY: ~IR. ROBERTS: not know. ~m.. DOODY: }ffi. ROBERTS: MR. H. COLLINS: t-IR. ROBERTS: HR. DOODY: MR. H. COLLINS: UR. ROBERTS: MR. DOODY: MR. ROBERTS: Gander Bay name · ~ Tape 3764 (Horning) Who is the manager of the Gander - who has been The lady from Glenwood. All along? How long has she been there? For years. What is her name? How long has she been there? She has been there - I mean,I do not go to the Gander Lodge~ I do I was there twice. A nice place. Hrs. Quilting? Mrs. Harris. Mrs. Harris, a fine lady.

A fine lady. That was not her name before she was married. No, she was a Hrs. Gillingham. No. Her name will change getting married. Gillingham~that was her name. Gillingham is a good Glenwood name, a good PK - 2 But the point is, Mr. Chairman, these things are not terribly significant in dollars. You know, we are not going to balance the budget on the Norma and Gladys or on getting rid of NIS or on getting rid of some of the over-stuffed and over-paid special assistants, like the man out in Botwood who is doing the job the gentleman from Exploits (Dr. Thomey) should be doing. I mean, you know DR.

THOMEY: Excuse me. HR. ROBERTS: Go ahead. DR. THOMEY: I have an office in my own home, a fully equipped office, my wife is my typist. She has worked with the Social Services in her life, and she does some of the work in that area. The man in the office in Botwood has never been asked to do one iota of business or correspondence by myself. I would like that to go on the recorc. 1..0559

June 3, 1977 Tape 3764 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I thank the hen. gentleman for making it clear. Hy question then would be · just what does the man in Botwood do? He was offered the job of course in consideration for not seeking the P.C. nomination in Exploits district in the last election, Mr. Denis Billard, Denny Billard I believe his name is. And what does he do? I mean,there is twenty or twenty-five or thirty thousand flung away, and you go around the Province and add these things up, and it is not just the dollars.

The dollars in themselves are significant even if they will not solve the Minister of Finance's problems. What is even more galling is that people see these things going on, and they knew they are going on and they resent them and so they ought to. Like the cartoon in yesterday's Daily News , very witty, very funny, and it was, but a lot of truth in it, and more and more people around this Province are questioning the style in which the government treat themselves on the taxpayers,money. And that is not true of all of the ministers. And I do not begrudge any minister whatever help he may need to do his job.

I think the Minister of Finance is very much aware of it, and I believe he feels the same way as I do. about 1.0soo

June 3,1977 Taue 37f.S- Horning AH-1 YR. ROBERTS: this regal style in ~vhich our government are treating themselves on the taxpayerslmonev. The ten or twelve thousand dollar expense accounts for big fancy meals, the autocracy on our money, t~e helicopters to go from Grand Falls to Gander, a fifty mile drive, an hours run in the car and a helicopter to take a man dmml Of all the absurdities~ and I could go on and I do not want to get into - MR. SD1MONS : Or the admission of how· -bad the T·rans-Canada Highway is. MR. ROHERTS: l.Jell,maybe it is an admission of how bad the highway is.

But the u~int is wnat about Lne ordinary man like the one in Grand Falls ~vho 1vrote me yesterday-and I sent it off to the senior "!'eople down in the Department of lvelfare - the man who had a heart ---· attack and has been treated in hospital and let out of hospital, but is one of these people condemned to a living death as fit for light work.That is great for a man who made his living in the construction trade~ He is forty-five now, he is in domestic difficulties, and he is separated from his wife.

He is living in a boarding house, receives $124 per month from the government~and it costs him $120.00 per month for his board and he has four dollars a month. He wrote me a six or seven page letter, a very polite letter, signed his name,and he said,'~en I see my children on th~ street - one eight and one eleven-and they ask me for a quarter,I cannot even give it to them:' And what he had to say and what he thought about the ~overnment as a government! And I think the gentleman from Exploits would feel the same way as I do.

Many decent peoule around the Province - and there are decent people on the other side; they are not all guilty of this-but when they see ministers whizzing around in helicopters, when they see great,elaborate expense accounts for no reason~these are things that really strike home, that really hurts. The moose license issue- you know ,it may be a commentary on political life in this Province but I have heard more critical comment of the Premier and the ~unister of Industrial :1.0561

June. 3,1977 Tape 3 765 - ~~orning AH-2 HR. ROBERTS: Development over the moose license :issue than almost anything else. And the people do not even know ab'out the three go,rernment helicopters that ~vere up there for t~vo days and three rlays each. The man who l-7as dm-m in Burgeo staying in the · motel , the !)ilot who >-7ent back every night and commuted in and out. $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, $10,000 flung away on that particular hunting trip so the Premier and the Minister of Industrial Development could slaughter a couple of moose and five or six hundred partridge whose time has come.

I do not begrudge a man hunting if he gets his kicks out of going out and killing an animal; many of our people do~ I do not although I dearly love a meal of patridge, dearly love a meal of patridge. But,you know,it is beginning to really irritate pecple and so it should because ~ve novr have a government that treats itself in regal style, flings around this Province and at the same time this same government asks the Province to tighten the belt, to restrain themselves and to pay higher taxes out of small incomes.

Hell,I think the government should set the example on taxes and set the example on expenditures,and I intend to vote against every · tax increase this government brings in until and unless I can be sho~m that there is some real effort on the government's part, some real effort at self-discipline, of restrai~t. Get rid of the ~orma and Gladvsl she does not do any good at all, she is a tribute to the stubbornness of the Minister of Tourism. MR. NEARY: Get rid of the Churchill Falls jet. Get clear of her~ HR. ROBERTS: Yes,the CFLCo jet. Lord!

What of the lawyers in Corner Brook who are taken up to Montreal with their wives for the weekend and a big suite provided in the hotel in Montreal, all of it on the CFLCo. Hhat about the shopping trips ? I mean they go on and on and on and is it petty to bring them up? Sure,any individual one may be called petty~ but in

summary they are not. Hhat conceivable use do CFLCo have for a jet in this day and age? And do not sav that CFLCo are 1.0562

June 3,1 977 Tape 3765 - M:orning AH-3 !>.fR . ROBERTS : not the government. We are paying for it, we own two .. thirds of it, we borro'tved the $160 million, the Hinister of Finance has got to pay that loan off, he will never get enough revenue from Churchill Falls to pay off the loan. The extra revenue we will get from our e~tra 57.8 per cent shares which we bought will never retire that loan. MR. NEARY: MR • . RO~ERTS: And now they have a bus service. If it were a commercial de-al it would never have flown. 'MR. • NE-ARY : ~. ROBERTS: About sixteen to twenty years. ~o.

It will not be paid off between sixteen and tw~nty years. The projections have not held true. Forget what we would have got anyway under the lease and the rental, you kn~w,the royalties fr~m horsepower. It is irritating as all :1.0563

June 3, 1977 Tape no. 3766 ?age 1 - ms ~1r · Roberts. get-out to people that the Hydro Corporation provides a bus to take its er.~loyees fro~ Phillip Place every ~orning out to wherever they .re out in Donovans and back in. Nobody else does that. A.."""ld the same man~ by the ~vay~~.;rho drives the '~us is man \vho every morning goes out and starts the cars over there during the Hinter. I have been \vondering all along r.1hether they had t\vo tlen or one man. Hydro do~vn -there, I am told, is over- staffed beyond belief with employees.

I had a young man come to see :ne the other day \•!ho had ivorked at Hydro in a senior position, became fed up 'v-ith it and took another job. He said,"I recommended they abolish my job$'' Md he added. "Thev did not abolish my job, they have hired three men to replace me. The }Unister of Finance is probably not aware of it, and I am just passing on ~vhat I have picked up in one place and another, but I say to him that the Hydro Cor?oration, the administration of that could be cut in half, in half! You knoH, the total dollars, ~·[r. Chairman, do not amount to all that ~uch.

You know, naybe they only amount to this $2.8 million that this tax will yield to us 1 'Jut it is the effect: t~at it is having on peoole, people ~•ho are being ground dmvn, people who cannot afford to pay their light bill. One of the most significant things to come out in a long time was a statement nade the other day, I believe, by Dave ~[ercer. ~-Je gre\v up together. He is one of the best public servants that this Province has ever had or ':vill ever have. I have im."!lense 't"espect for David :rercer.

He is nm.;r dmm at Hydro as one of their seven or eizht or ten vice-presidents, and he certainly, you knm.;r - the Province ought to keep a man like David ~iercer i::1 its service. But he said some,vhere - I think it was David who said it - that Hydro has noted the 90,000 people in this Province cvl:o; are non-electrically heated electric consumers. A~parently there at;.E; 90,000 people who buy electricity but ~.;rho do not use electric heat. They use it only for lights and television and appliances. But their average bill has declined. Their average consu:n-ption 1 1.0564

June 3, 1977 Paze 2 - :ns ~ i r. Roberts. I should say, :1as declined, and nyC.ro 'das at a loss to understand that. It affected their plans. :-[.:l. ~E .. \P. y : It was on a panel at the Board of Trade. ~K_R, ~03ZT-?.TS: ~ias it on a panel? I thank my friend from LaPoile. I had seen it in the paper some~o1here or heard it on the radio. Now nobody paid much attention to it. ~. NE.\RY: The Hin±ster of Education made a mistake and put an ad in the Atlantic Advocate - r~~ember ? - saving "~>re have a Department of Education in !'~ewfoundland. ~T.. ROBERTS: Oh yes, yes.

Well the minister actually did ~hat to try to convince his deputy and his officials. And the next ad \vill say we have a Hinister of Education. But quite seriously it is a very significant thing, because 'lvhat is happening obviously is ordinary people are being ground dmm. You know, in the House -.:ve tend to for;set· it but we do fairly well. He think \ve are unpaid, and ive are always looking for more money or more perks and I am all for paying ~LH.A's, you knm.r, or we are not going to get good people to run for any party. But we are in the top one per cent of income earners in this Province.

I do not have the federal green book in front of me, but I \vill bet that \ve are the top one or two per cent. Some of us may have come from backgrounds of deprivation, economic deprivation, but nobody in the House today is economically deprived. \,That do we get? Al:out $20,000 a year when you add it all in, an ordinary M.H.A1 ?·ffi.. ~mARY: }ffi.. ROBERTS: ~1R. DOODY: Twenty thousand, five hundred. Twenty thousand, five hundred. That \vould vary - would it not? - fr0m district to district. NR. ~EARY: Oh, yes, that is right. MR. ROBERTS: Hell, it is $18,000 or $20,000.

And remember a la-rge dunk of that is tax free, that lovely little loophole and,true,we have some expenses that a lot of people do not have. But let us say $15,000, you know. That is not economic denrivation. I do not 1.0565

June 3, 1977 Tape no . 3766 Pa:;e 3 ~·!r. Roberts. suppose there is anybody in my district earning $15,000 except the doctors, and the teachers and maybe one or t;.;o civil servants, you knm.;. For the ordinary 6UY in t~is Province, $15,000 is a lot of money, and there are a lot of people -that is $300 a week, and on a forty hour ~veek that is $7.50 an hour and hmv ~any tradesmen earn $7.50 an hour? MR. )l'EARY: Tal~ to a plumber. ~11\. RO~ERTS: Yes, ~.;hen they get work.

The fallacy in looking at the rates Raid plumbers_ and electricians, of cours~, is that they do not get forty hours rmr:-:, fifty r.;eeks a vear in ver:r many cases unless you are "tvith A. B. v-Jalsh Limited. MR. DOODY: Some of us get forty hours though. HR. ROBERTS: A. B. Halsh Limited gets forty hours l·mrk fi~ty weeks a year, but they get a little · ~ore than $7.50 an hour, ~-:R. DOCDY: I am looking for..;ard to a forty hour 1wrk ~veek. I have to say that the Hinister of Finance is be·ginning to look the ':-;rorse for the '-lear and tear. He is making an old man out of himself. ~-iR.

ROBERTS: The po~nt is a very valid one that until the government gives some concrete evidence - and there are many things that I ~.;auld like to do as Premier of this Province and 1vhether i get the chancP. or not is another story- but one of the things I 1v-ould do is take a sr,;ringing axe to all these extraneous things. It would take abo11t five minutes to do it, and then it ~.;auld be done and out of the way. M..~. NE~\RY : l:1R. ROBERTS: Gut her out. Let us show the people of this Province that the government are serious and all these little irritations - ~8.. NZARY: R.ight. ~-1R.

ROBERTS: -you knov.T, ministers landing in helicopters. Jow I use government aircraft and 1;dll go on doing it, and I will de~end that because I think it is legitimate any time \vhenever I have used them, but landing in 1..0566

June 3, 1977 Tape 3767 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: helicopters when ordinary people have to walk or drive on the roads, you know, just because it may be a little bit more convenient. And what about the helicopters landing out here? Ministers or civil servants landing out here. These cushy fishing lodges at Adlatok and Gander - AN HON. MEMBER: XR. ROBERTS: Going down to look at yourself? You know, there have been pious prating in this Ho"use about entertaining distinguished guests. That is balderdash. HR. NEARY: yet? MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: HR. NEARY: be there. MR..

ROBERTS : Flying in to look at your club to see if she is ready Yes, there was a case of that. Highways. Yes~having an inspection of your private club down - That is just incidential though, you just happened to Yes. I mean it just happened. I mean, the fact that the government here will not produce the records, Hhile in Ottawa they will produce them, because Otto Lang has been hounded for daring to produce the records of his flying, at least he had the courage to do it. No minister here has done it.

There is not a minister here who will produce the records of where the government aircraft has been or where the helicopter has been or where the Churchill Falls plane has been. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. DOODY: MR. ROBERTS: J:.!R. DOODY: That should be a plank in our platform,by the way. Our platform. Our platform. Is the hon. gentleman telling me something? You mean the polls are in? The poll is in. The poll is in. Let us hear the results. :1.0567

June 3~ 1977 Tape 3767 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: shortly. I suspect the poll is in and the ballots will be in ~m. NEARY: We should have freedom of information. MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Chairman, I am deadly serious about it, Perhaps I am out of touch with the way a lot of people feel~but I find that more and more people are being as irritated as all get out by this. The government that is increasing taxes and talking restraint, acting like they were Imperial Lords and Masters. I think any member who listens to what people are saying will have picked up - I say the gentleman from Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) has picked it up down his way. MR. PATTERSON: What is that? MR. ROBERTS: People are complaining about the style in which the government are treating themselves at the public expense, tvhile at the same time saying to the people, Hold ~n, Bear down on restraint and we will have to ask you for higher taxes. People are objecting to that. I say to the hon. gentleman that he has had people come up and say, Who does that blankety, blankety, blank, blank think he is going on a hunting trip on government airc .raft? MR. NEARY: That is right because I was down there last weekend and I know that to be a fact.

MR. ROBERTS: I mean the three helicopters were in behind - is it LaPoile Bay ~here they were, Star Lake? MR. NEARY: That is right, LaPoile Bay. MR. ROBERTS: There were three helicopters up there, the government paying for them. Three helicopters .! - the government paying $250 an hour,a-minimum of four hours a day guaranteed, $6,000, $8,000, $10,000 is what that moose that was slaughtered unlawfully cost us. Now we got 500 partridge as well. They did not cost more than $20 each. Even the shells~I am told~were bought down in Burgeo at the Coastal Stores Limited and paid for by government order.

That is what I am told. I do not know if it is true. But I am told it. One of the pilots put up at the hotel down at Burgeo and the bill was sent into the government. He was on government business 1flying the Premier and 1..0568

June 3, 1977 Tape 3767 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: the i-!inister of Industrial !levelopment around. MR. NEARY: They booted out all of the game ~· !ardens and everything in the area. They told them they had to leave. UR. ROBERTS: What about this? Ny friend from Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor) has heard of the story of the Long Harbour River - people prohibited from going up the Long Harbour River~ a public river ! - prohibit~d from going up and being told, Oh no,this is closed now . There is a very important person up the river, and we are closing the river.

What about tae camp that is being maintained down there with civil servants, a public servant down there providing services paid for out of public expense. AN HON. MEMBER: Long Harbour. MR. ROBERTS: Long Harbour, Placentia Bay, the beautiful salmon river- not Placentia Bay, Fortune Bay~ I am sorry. Not the Erco, Long Harbour, There is no fishing in that Long Harbour. MR. NEARY: They would all bepink. They are pink, I suppose, salmon anyway. MR. ROBERTS: But the Long Harbour River, that beautiful river. Dr. Fitzgerald's book, The Albatross there are some marvelous pictures of Long Harbour River.

I know the Minister of Finance is as irritated as I am about these things. Here he is trying to negotiate, to argue with the Waterford guys about a few cents or a few dollars and other public servants, at the same time all of this is going on. MR. NEARY: Is that report in yet,by the way? MR. ROBERTS: And it is the most galling possible thing, and I say to the government if they ever expect to get any sympathy from the people of this Province, if they ever expect to have any understanding of the financial problems of this Province on the part of the people they have got to show the way.

At least we do not get on the airplanes any more and see all of the civil servants riding up in :10569 .:

June 3, 1977 Tape 3767 (Afternoon) PK - 4 Mr. Roberts: Class I 0 ~oy,how that used to gall me! You would get on, and I travelled economy and always have and hope always will. tVhy not? It gets there just as quick, But you would walk by six or eight deputy ministers, you are sitting up there in Class I on our money, if they want to do it on their own money that . is their problem - MR. NEARY: Memorial University crowd - . MR. ROBERTS : I was going to say I suppose if Memorial were banned travelling, if the government were banned travelling~Air Canada might as well take the first class

section out of the aircraft out of this Province. MR. NEARY: They would have to take a flight off. MR. ROBERTS: And I would like to see some of the - AN HON. MEMBER: See first class. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? AN HON.MEMBER: They all travel first class. MR. ROBERTS: Not any more they do not. y ut I have been on aircraft ·and President Morgan has never travelled first class. I wish the head of the government would be as discreet as the