Manitoba Hansard — 28 January 1960 (Sitting 8, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 8. January 28, 1960 2nd Sessil:>n, 26th. Legislature Printed· by R. S. Evans. Queen�s Printer for tbe Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Thursday, January 28, 1960, 2:30 p.m. Introduction of Bill, No. 57 . • • . • . . • . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . 95 Motion to Discuss Urgent Matter: Mr. Molgat, Mr. Speaker . • . . . . • . . • . . . . . . . . • • . • • • 95 Mr. Molgat, Mr. Lyon .• ; • . . . • . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . 96 Mr. Camp bell . . . . . . • . . . . . . • . . • . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . 98 Mr.

Roblin ..• ... •. . �. . ... ... . .......... .. .... .. .. .. ... ...... ... ... .. ... 99 Mr. Paulley . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . • . . • • . . 100 Mr. Desjardins, Mr. Prefontaine, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Schreyer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101 Mr. Camp bell, Mr. Corbett, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Molgat . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102 Mr. Roblin, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Guttormson ..... 103 Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Molgat . . . . . . . . • . . . . • . . . . • • • . . . • • • . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . • . . 104 Qu estions ....... ... ..... • .............. ..... ,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . 104 Throne Speech Debate: Mr. Martin . . . . . . . • • . . • . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . 107 Mr. Hryhorczuk . . • . • •. . . . • . . . . . . . • . • . • . . . • • • . . . . • . . . • • • . . .. . . . . • . • . • . • . . . 111 Mr.

Christianson • . • • . . . . • . • . . . . . . . . • . . . . . • . • • . . . . . . • . . . • . . • . . . . • . . . . • . • 115 Mr. Dow Mr. Desjardiils INDEX TO VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS, 1960 116 119 Introduction of New Members • .. . . . . .. . . .. .. • .. . .. • . . .. .. .. .. • .. . .. . .. . .. . • .. . . .. .. 5 Speech from The Throne Debate: Mr. Groves, Mr. Jeannotte, Mr. Camp bell . • • • . . . . . 6 Resolution: Rules (Mr. Lyon), Mr. Prefontaine, Mr. Paulley . . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. • 32 Motion: Election Act (Mr. Lyon), Mr. Paulley, Mr.

Campbell . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . • 34 Introduction ofBills: Nos. 43, 27, 14, 18, 45 ......... ' ............................ 35 Orders for Returns: Mr. Prefontaine, Mr. Dow .. .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . ... .. .. . . . ... . . .. · 37 Speech from The Throne Debate: Mr. Paulley . . • . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • 38 Introduction of Bills: Nos. 20, 3, 19, 49, 36 • • . . . • . . • . . • • . . . • • . . • . • . . . • . . . . • • . . • . 49 Speech from The Throne Debate: Mr. Froese, Mr. Orlikow ••••••• -. . .... .. .. . . . . .. . . 50 Bill No. 2 (Mr.

Hutton) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell, Mr. Roberts • . . • . . • . • . • • • . • • • . 60 Bill No. 4 (Mr. Johnson, Gimli) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell ........................ 62 Bill No. 5 (Mr. Roblin) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Gray . .. .. .. • 62 Bill No. 6 (Mr. Roblin) 2nd Reading: Mr. Campbell .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . 64 Bill No. 8 (Mr. Johnson, Gimli) 2nd Reading . . .. . .. .. .. . .. .. .. . .. . . .. .. .. .. . . .. .. 65 Introduction of Bills: Nos. 52, 54, 15, 16, 50, 52, 17 .................... -.. . . . . . :. . • 67 statement, re Television, Mr.

Carroll .• •.. •.. .... .•.••.•• •....•. ..... •.. ..••. . ••• _ 69 Motion, re Agricultural Credit Corporation, Mr. Shoemaker . • • . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . • . . . . 70 Resolution, re School Construction Grants, Mr. Dow, Mr. Schreyer .................. 73 Spee_ch from The Throne Debate: Mr. Peters, Mr. stanes . • . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . 76 Introduction of Bills: Nos. 55, 56 . . ..... . . ; .... ; . ; ...................... - ........ � '- 81 Bill No. 3 (Mr.

Lyon) 2nd Reading . . • . . . . . . . . . • . . . • . • • . • • • • . . • . • • . • . . . . . . • • • . . . . • . 86 Throne Speech Debate: Mr. Schreyer, Mr. Seaborn, Division on Amendment to the Amendment . . . . . . . . • . . . . • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • • • . • • • • . . . . . • • • • 87

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, January 28th, 1960 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Rockwood-Iberville) introduced Bill No. 57,

an Act to amend the Watershed Conservation Districts Act. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. HUTTON: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to table a return to the Order of the House for the �ormation requested by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. li!IR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk, that the House do now adjourn for the purpose of discussing a definite matte!' of urgent public importance, name ly, the gross breach of parliamentary practices and procedures and the co ntempt of the Legis lature of Manitoba as evidenced by the actions of a Minister of the Crown in revealing details of the estimates of expenditure of this Government for the fiscal year starting 1st of April, 1960 to persons outside of this House before such estimates have been presented to this House. MR.

SPEAKER: I am not just sure if this is a proper motion or not. It certainly makes certain charges against a Minister of the Crown and we do not know just what those charges are by the wording of the motion. It seems to me that it may not be, the way it is worded, a proper motion to come before the House. It's certainly not of urgent public importance and we have agreed, I believe, that that is not to be taken into consideration until the co=ittee on rules meet and they will make a decision in that respect. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order if I may, I believe that we are still operating under the rules that we operated under last year. There has been no change made in the rules as yet, and that was not the policy that was followed in the past in this House. I see no reason why, until the rules co=ittee meets, that there should be a change in the rules be cause we have not agreed to such a change.

And insofar as the reasons for this, I believe that the motion states quite clearly the actions to which we are referring, and that is the giving out outside of this House of information which this House has not yet been advised of. MR. SPEAKER: I have no objection to it coming before the House but I still am not convinced it's an exactly proper motion. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, the matters to which I refer in this adjournment are the statements that were made by the Honourable the Attorney-General to the meeting of the Council of the Municipalit-y of Fort Garry on Tuesday last.

My understanding is that at that time the Municipality of Fort Garry and the Council were advised of certain expenditures that this govern ment is proposing to do in that area in 1960. The report is that there were a number of specific programs that were stated there with specific amounts of money that were to be spent on them. Mr. Speaker, I feel that this is a most serious matter and also a most urgent one, because it strikes at the very root of our reason fo!' being here as members.

And if that is the policy that is to ba followed, that I asked, there is an immediate question confronting all members of this House: V.lhat are we here for if this is the policy that the government is going to continue? This to me, .Mr. Speaker, is the crowning action of a government who is more interested in political expediency than in good administration.

It seems that there is one rule that they follow consis tently and that is propaganda first, all the time, in every occasion, and unless this process is stopped, I say that this Leg islature may as well be suspended and the members go back home and let the government proceed and make its announcements all over the place as it sees fit. I do not propose at this time to go .into the actions of tbis government outside of this House, al though there is certainly a great deal that ctfuid be covered there. I want to stay strictly to what is going on here in the House and to the procedures here in the Assembly.

January 28th, 1960. Page 95.

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) ••••• While a private member and while the Leader of the Opposition, my honourable friend the First Minist3r was one of the champions of the rights of this Legislature. He spoke on many occasions on this matter and he stood up at all times for the rights of the op position and of the House. Since becoming First Minister, however, I find a marked c:!J.ange in his attitude. It seems to me that there is a complete reversal and that he is working steadily at the erosion of our rights here in the Legislature, and he is thereby lessE;ning the importance of this House.

We find, for example, in the Throne Speech last week that many things were omitted in the Throne Speech, but they are told to us a short time after by one of the private members. I suppose we can expect that there will be further announcements made a little bit all over the place by various Ministers and private members, and that way they will develop the pl·ogram of the government rather than presenting it to this House as it should be done in the first place.

We find that when the House meets the First Minister proposes that there should be· a rules committee set up to go over the rules of the House and some suggestions made at that time that this particular rule that I am now speaking under should be changed. Also, the length of time of debate on the Throne Speech should be less. In other words, a different attitude than that my honourable friend had previously. We find as well that last year, for example, on the Throne Speech, the Ministers of the Crown at that time made departmental estimates, reviews and statements. That was quite all right.

They were quite free to make all the statements that they wanted to discuss -- every single item of roadwork in the province under the Throne Speech, but this year when the same matter comes up again, oh, things have changed. Now we should stick to the motion under consideration. Mr.

Speaker, we have reached with this last action, however, the most serious point in this deterioration, the point where a Minister of the Crown uses his special position for his propaganda purposes of his own in his own constituency; where a Minister of the Crown takes ad vantage of the advance information that he has, as a member of the cabinet, to further his own 1aims in his constitu.ency. And who of all people is doing this, Mr. Speaker? None other than the Attorney-General himself. The man who is there to look after the legal aspects in particular in provincial affairs.

The man who should be best advised as to what the rules of this House are. I ask, M:i:. Speaker, is this advance information given to other members of this House? Well, it certainly isn't given to any members on this side. This constant politicking, Mr. Speaker, 'by my honourable friends across us, this prostitution of the provincial interest for pure propa ganda purposes and their own political aims, are extremely bad.

It is not however, in my opinion, the worst aspect of this particular development which I have been referring to, It is the shocking contempt of this House which is the serious aspect, and I think it is the most serious affair that has happened since my honourable friends have taken power. When His Honour calls us here to assemble, to discuss the matters important to this province, there are two main historical reasons for our being here. One of them is to discuss the proposed expenditures of His Honour's Government and the other the ways and means of raising the revenue to cover that expenditure. Surely, Mr.

Speaker, we are the only people who should be.advised of these proposals. We should be the first people to be told about it. They should not be bandied across the province to others until the House, whose duty it is to consider it, has been fully made aware of it. I ask then, what is the responsibility of this House? If Cabinet Ministers could go about and state to other people this is what the government is going to do; we are going to spend so much and so much money here and there; it is a firm decision; what are we here for? What is the point? I would like to remind the House, Mr.

Speaker, that we very frequently refer here to the Mother of Parliaments. We refer to the rules and the traditions that we have inherited from that source. I recall that not too many years ago a chancellor of the exchequer inadvertently let slip some information on his budget proposals prior to presenting his budget in the House- and this I say �inadvertently, and it was admitted to be such, I believe, by all parties in that House. And what did that gentleman do, Mr. Speaker? He resigned. A MEMBER: Quite proper! MR. MOLGAT: I suggest that the House might give this matter serious consideration at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I think it is Page 96. January 28th, 1960.

I (Mr. Lyon, cont'd. ) ••••• only appropriate that I should make some response to the remarks which have just betr.l made by the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose. May I at the outset, Mr. Speaker, say that generally speaking I concur, in not everything, but practically everything be has said with respect to the rules of this House, observing the ·proper decorum with respect to this House, and making sure that each individual member of this House should do nothing which would hold this House in contempt. I think that the theme upon which he argues is a good theme.

I think perhaps the instance at which he directs his vituperation is perhaps not a good example of infringement of the theme. May I say first of all, Sir, in reply to the remarks that have been made, that I am not going to claim this quotation in the newspaper where this story was carried and where obviously the honourable member obtained most of his information.

The explanation I give, I hope will be suitable and will certainly be understood and appreciated by the House, and it is a sincere ex planation which I am giving and one in which I am trying to recall and record the facts as cer tainly they come to my memory. My remarks that I made, the remarks that I made the other evening concerning proposed- proposed public works were all made, and I stress this point, they were all made subject to con firmation --as I said at the outset --subject to confirmation by the estimates of the Department of Public Works.

I said this was what, speaking as an MLA. this was what I hoped we might see done in my particular area in 1960, The matters that I dealt with with the council were not secret in any way at all because on most of them, if not all of them, there had been prior nego tiations goili.g on with the Department of Public Works at the sub-ministerial level and with the st aff of the Municipality of Fort Garry.

We had had considerable discussions, I may say, with respect to a road going into the university - meetings between myself and. the then mayor of Fort Garry, the former Minister of Public Works, and so on, at which time certain decisions· were arrived at, always subject to what the estimates of the Department cif Public Works would reve·al when they were disclosed to this House. And so I do want to make that point clear, that what I said on that occasion was made subject to these being approved and being in --and being in the estimates of the Department of Public Works.

The main point of my attending the meeting, and this was clearly stated or at least it was in the news report to which I am sure my honourable friend refers, my main point was to be there, as the MLA, to greet the council officiaJ).J at one of its early meetings in the year and to invite the council to come in to meet with the Minister of Public Works pursuant to a letter which they had already received from the Deputy Minister of Public Works inviting them to come in to discuss certain matters which were under consideration between that municipality and the govern ment, and these were public works matte:. s.

As I say, the information that I conveyed without particularizing was not information which was secret as between the councillors and the govern ment, It was information upon which discussion had been going on for some time. Now having said all of that, Mr.

Speaker, having said all of that and pointing out what I consider to be pro per extenuating circumstances, I still admit that the inference could be drawn, especially by a news media who don't take down every word that is spoken, the inference could be drawn that this was a preview of information which, as the honourable member mentions, should properly be given first to this House. I regret this

interpretation was drawn and I regret even more that the words that I used at that time were capable of that misinterpretation. It was not my intention nor indeed my desire to usurp the function of this House, nor would it ever be. Holding the position that I do in this House, as the honourable member has pointed out, not only should I be conscious of tne rights of this House --may I say, Sir, in all humility, that I attempt at all times to be conscious of the prerogative rights of this House and of the prerogative right of information being given only in this House.

I would say this further, Sir, that if it is felt that through perhaps an improper choice of words, through lack of stressing of the point that I have made today, if it is felt that my inadvertence could be so construed, I must apologize most sincerely to the House for not word ing my remarks more carefully because certainly that was my intention. And I certainly should apologize to the House if this, what I said, was capable of being misinterpreted in the way that obviously the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose does interpret it.

Perhaps I did.not use or was not as careful in my language outside of the House as certainly one must be inside this Chamber. I can say as a member, and as an individual, that certainly no offence was intended. January 28thm 1960. Page 97.

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd.) ••••• No offence was intended against you, Sir, or against this House, and I can give only my,.personal assurance to the honourable member that that is the case. Now having, as I say, having said all of these things, I do wish to point out that my remarks were prefaced by the statement that "subject to these matters being confirmed and in the Dept. of Public Works estimates, this was what we hoped would be done." I still hope that these things will be done, Mr.

Speaker, but I do admit that there may have been inadvertence in the wording inadvertence in the way this was worded so that the proper emphasis was not picked up by those listening to my remarks. HON. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition)(Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, the Hon ourable the Minister who has spoken on this subject has given his explanation with regard to it.

I am sure he must feel very embarrassed by the fact that he must be, holding the position that. he does, the subject of such a motion in this House, and I can't see for my point how anyone, a member of this House or the public, could take any other

interpretation from not only the press report, which by and front the Honourable the Attorney-General admits is quite accurate, but from the action that he toQk. He tells us that he made it plain to the. council of the Municipality of Fort Garry that the projects that he was mentioning and what he had to say with regard to them were stlbject to confirmation by the House. But the same press report quite definitely mentions that it was communicated to the council that these items are in the estimates. Yes it is. We will go through this report a little bit, Mr.

Speaker, because I share with the Honourable the :Member for ste. Rose; who brought this motion to the floor of the House, that this is one of the most serious things that this House has ever had to deal with in all the years that I have been here.

It is not inconsistent with the case that my honourable friend mentioned of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the United kingdom who resigned -- who resigned his post because of a similar breach of etiquette; of a similar breaking of the rules of Parliament; of a similar con tempt of the House that he sat in; and that's what this amounts to --nothing less -- and no ex planation such as the one we've heard from the Honourable the Attorney-General this afternoon will change that position, Mr. Speaker.

The press report begins - "The law -- the law paid a surprise visit to the Fort Garry Council meeting Tuesday night in the person of Attorney-General Honourable sterling Lyon who is a member for Fort Garry in the provincial legislature. He was there to report on public works to be carried out in the municipality in 1960." No wonder that the council of Fort Garry was surprised. No wonder that they were surprised to see a member of this House coming to tell them of the works that were going to be carried out in 1960 before this legislature had re ceived the estimates.

No wonder they were surprised, and they'd be doubly surprised if they were aware of the constitutional positions as they are, they would be doubly surprised at the fact that the man who perpetrates this breach of parliamentary tradition is none other than the At torney-General of the province. An amazing situation! No wonder they were surprised. Mr. Lyon said -- and this of course is from the Free Press of yesterday -- Mr. Lyon said "the perimeter highway that lies within Fort Garry will be completed in 19 60." But here is another amazing statement -- "and will cost $588, 000." Mr.

Speaker, I pause to ask the question, has this contract already been let? I ask the government, has it already been let? Could we have a reply to that question? Has this contract already been let? Because if it hasn't been let -- if it hasn't been let, then there's a double error here, because what my honourable friend is doing is giving advanced information to the people who may be tendering on that project. And if it has been let without the money being voted by this parliament, then that government is in greater contempt even than we find them in at the moment. Quoting the actual figures, Mr.

Speaker, of what these various projects will amount to. Another $174,000. will be spent paving a 24-foot wide strip from the old main gate at the University of Manitoba on Pembina Highway to the University Administration Building. Has that one been let? The honourable gentleman should tell us one thing or the other. Either these contracts have been let or they haven't been let.

If they've been let -- it isn't likely that they'd be let unless there was some money left over because I don't think even this government would go so far astray that it would let the contract in advance of the estimates being provided here, but the honourable gentleman who attended there as member for Fort Garry tells the people the amount that they're expecting this to cost, and that's a fine way to handle the business of this province.

And after another item or two, the re port goes on to say he told 9ouncil th�t enou�h mqney �ad been set asid!3 in. the government estimates to repave the busmes3 portion of .l:'embma Highway -- set aside m the government Page 98, January 28th , 1960.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) ••••• estimates. The honourable gentleman may have made the quali fications that he mentioned here and I certainly agree with him that if he did he did not choose his words very carefully, and so, Mr.

Speaker, we are faced with this position that, long before the estimates come down in this House; before even the debate on the Speech from the Throne has been more than half through, I presume, or less than half through; before the government has had confidence voted in it; a member not only of the House, a member not only of the Cabinet side--of the government side, a member not only of the Cabinet, but the member of the Cabinet who holds the position of Attorney-General, the chief law officer of this province goes out and tells his constituency advance information that is not yet in the possession of the legislature.

Mr. Speaker, I thin.� that the words that the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose used are temperate indeed in describing a situation of this kind. I have certainly never seen its equal in tb.e years that I have been here. I trust that we will never see it happen again. I commend the Honourable the Attorney-General for an attempt to explain the situation and for the apology that he has tendered to the House, but I say that for such a serious, such a flagrant breach of the· position that he holds as a member of the government, that an apology to this House is not en ough.

The First Minister should consider the matter from the point of asking for the resignation oi the Honourable the Attorney-General. This is a serious matter, Mr, Speaker, No one- absolutely no oL!.e, I'm sure, could question the urgency of tbis matter coming before the House at this time, This is one of the things, as the Honourable Member for Ste, Rose has mentioned, that strikes at the very root of the parliamentary traditions and it's broken by the Honourable the Attorney-General. Mr. Speaker, there's no need to belabour the point.

Certainly no words of mine are strong enough to express my dis2pproval of tbis action, my criticism of the honourable member hims elf, and the government of which he is a member for allowing it to happen, and I recommend to the First Minister that he seriously consider the only possible action that he can take under these circumstances. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I'm always glad to listen to any advice that may be tendered to the gov<:Jrnment from members that sit opposite, but their counsel carries more weight if it fits the proportion of the circumstance.

I think that the Attorney-General has made a candid and honourable statement to the House this afternoon, He has expressed his regrets for the situation that has arisen and I for one think that that is ample expiation, if expiation is required, for the circumstance in which he has fotmd himself. And my view of the matter is that after the honourable gentlemen opposite have amused themselves this afternoon at his expense, in dealing with this matter, that that should be sufficient investi gation of the circumstances which are described here. The plain fact is that people make mis takes.

I confess that I'm among those wb.o make mistakes but I am also certain that they should be considered in the context of the s.ituatlon, and when we have received an explanation such as the one that we have received this afternoon, I think we should consider that to be an acceptable explanation of the matter. I want to say just another word though, because when my honourable friend the Member for st.

Rose was speaking he went a little farther afield than the particular matter under con sideration, to castigate the government generally and myself in particular for similar errors or similar shortcomings in respect of our attitude toward the legislature. And, Sir, I repudiate them wholeheartedly, My honourable friend appeared to believe that we of the government, for example, authorized private members to make statements of policy that are not in the Throne Speech. Well, Sir, if you believe that you believe anything. It simply is not couect.

We do not in this Part-g have the habit of :J.betting the speeches of our members and the honourable member was spealdng, as I am sure he intended to speak, for himself, as a private member has the right to do and not for the administration. I am reproached as well for wishing to abridge the rights of parliament because we have convened a committee to consider the rules. Well, Sir, I would like to say that before that step was taken I thought it right that!. should consult with the leaders of the other parties.

It is not right that I should disclose here what was said to me on that occasion, nor will I do it, but I hope I may be allowed to say that the proposal that the Rules Committee should meet was one which appeared acceptable to those honourable gentlemen, though I say that that in no way com mits them nor do I seek to commit them now in advance with respect to the matters, although there were some discussions on it, but it is not proper for me to intimate in any way that they January 28th, 1960. Page 99.

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.), ••• ,agreed with what might be proposed for that committee to consider.

I merely record the fact that I took what I thought was the proper courtesy of consulting them on the formation of that committee, And I would also say, Sir, that in respect of the rights of parliament, we are taking in this session of the legislature an important step, a step that be comes more important as each year goes by, which my honourable friends had the opportunity to take in their day but which they neglected to do, namely, we ara going to propose to this House that the Throne Speech set forth the fact that there will be a proposal made to have a committee on regulations, so that regulations that are made under the statl!W of Heaven. knows how many, and how varied they are today, and how important they are, and I regret how essen ti9J to the conduct of modern government, so that those regulations can be reviewed by this legislature to provide an opportunity for any member of this House, on either side, to state his v-:iews and that the matter may receive thorough public consideration, a..'l.d if ill the field of regu lations which is so much a part and so major a part of the duties of government .today when powers are delegated to us, there should be an accounting to this legislature of that very im portant function of the administration.

So I say to you, Sb:, that when hor>.ourabie members opposite loosely ma.�e the charge that we are contemptuous of parliament, I don't think, Sir, that that is justified by the facts, and I say that in my humble opini.on the fact that we .in this legislature, to the best of my knowledge the only legislature in Canada, although I would like to check that before I make it as a categorical statement, but to the best of my knowledge the only legislature in the country that is considering this kind of regulation, this kind of arrangement to permit regulations to receive the thorough scrutiny of the House, is something which can hardly be described as the action qf a government which is in contempt to parliament.

Adverting again to the charge of my honourable friend, which they have attempted to magnify in a way which I do not think the situation justifies, let me remind them that the mcid ent to which they refer, although we may not regard it as one which we would like to have re-occur, the incident to which they refer is one which they themselves have in times gone by been I think guilty of, although they had the good sense apparently to do it where there w�re no newspaper reporters around, because I challenge members on the opposite side who had cabinet e:;,.-perience to answer whether or no discussions have not taken place :with municipal officials before monies were voted by the legislature about roads or other public works in their constitu-� encies.

My honourable friend speaking oppoBite promised the City of Winnipeg $1 million on the Disraeli bridge that he had to come to parlirunent afterwards and get it approved on, and he says that is an entirely different thing. I wonder about it. The former Minister of Health and Public Welfare, who is no longer in this House, announced increased provincial grants to the City of Winnipeg before it was reported here in this House.

The former Minister of Education, no longer in this House, announced government debenture buying programs for school districts before it wa.s announced in this House; and my honourable friend the Leader of the· Opposition gave away a million dollars worth of real estate just across the street here to the City of Winni peg before it was ever announced in this House or the financial approval of this legislature. So I want to wind up by this, I thin.l<. my honourable friend the Attorney-General has made a proper statement.

I approve of it and I think that it is a statement which is :fitting under the circum stances, but I also say, Sir, that we should not allow ourselves to be carried away by thinking that this particular offence is of such a nature that it calls for the remedy that my honourable friends opposite advise. Physician heal thyself. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF) (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to say a word or two in connection with this and I think the members of the legislature will be all the better informed of the procedure of parliamentar.r government because tills matter has been raised in the House. As a matter of fact, I did have the newspaper clipping on my binder to raise the question at some other time but now that the matter has been drawn to the attention of the House as a matter of urgent importance, I think that it is well that the error has been clarified.

I think, Sir, that it would only be fair of me, as leader of this party in the House and as a member of this legislature, were I to say firstly that there was on behalf of the Attorney-General some indiscretion in his appearing before the Council of Fort Garry and re vealing in detail certain financial aspects of the government before it was tabled in the House, and having said that, Sir, I, as a member of this House, am prepared to accept the. statement of the Honourable the Attorney-General as to what he actually said and may not be contained in the Page 100. January 28th, 1960.

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) •• ••• newspaper report. But even more important than that, I think for the Go vernment of Manitoba - in the use of the word"goyernmeni!'I mean all-embracing and not jU.st the government itself -- that it is well that be b.as and we have all learned a lesson from this. I do not agree with the contention of the official opposition that this is a matter which should callf or the resignation of the Iviinister.

I think the parallel, or the point that the Liberal opposition is attempting to raise in respect of the resignation of the Minister in the old land, is not a parallel at all because iD. that particular instance it was a revealing of the budget itself on a matter of taxation and what was conta ined therein in respect of that. I want to say this to the government and to the Attorney-General, that had he revealed details of the budget itself of ways and means, then I most assuredly would have taken an entire-· ly diff erent attitude than: I am taking now. I think, Mr. Speaker, that I need not say anythi.'lg further.

The First Minister has given us illustrations of incidents, while maybe not as vivid as this, of incidents which were occasioned during the administration of the Liberal government here in Manitoba and I agree - (Interjection)- maybe in your opinion but in mine there is -- .I agree with the. First l'IIinister on some of the illustrations that he b3.s given but more important more important than all of that,_ Mr.

Speaker, I think that after tbis indiscretion .has beEln made, after the individual concerned has admitted to tbis House that he was not very careful in his choice of presentlJ.tion to the Council of Fort Garry, tb3.t we in this House should accept that ex planation and that both the government and the members on this side should gain from tb3.t unfortunate experienc� that we have here this afternoon. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, there is only one point) .would like to make.

In bis usual capable way the honourable the First Minister followed tbis old trick -- the old system of when found guilty accuse somebody else, and thEm you will get the eyes away from your own guilt. Now he mentioned cer taili things which were ail policies of a government. He mentioned members of Cabinet that spoke as Cabinet Ministers. Now if this policy \vasn 't a good one, it's a dif:ferent thing that the Attorney-General today told us himself that he was not there as the At'"..orney-General of the Prov',nce of Manitoba, but as the member for Fort Garry in bis o� 'll constituency. ' MR .

EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to rise to bring to the attention of this Hc.use another indiscretion that· has been made by a member of the Cab.inet along the same lines. MR . SPEAKER: I don't believe you can raise that question on this motion. lVIR. CAMPBE LL: 1-.!J:r. Speaker, this motion refers to a Minister of the Crown. MR. SPEAKER: May I have the motion? I believe it. deals with one specific question. · MR . C.A.JviPBELL: Any Ministel'. at all. . A l\'Iinister. MR . SPEAKER: Well I'm sorry, I misunderstood the wording. ..;... MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr.

Speaker, I would bring to the attention of this House an in- cident that happened at the end of December when a delegation from Carillon constituency came to see the Minister of Public Works at that time. It is reported in the Carillon News� The The headline is this: " •••••• •• St. Pierre road for sure 1960." This is an announcement of a road for which the money would be voted at this coming session, and it was done at the end pf December arid aimounced as such. I would like to read the story. Definite promise was made to build a road lOO% government.. . . • · MR .

SPEAKER: I might enquire if that statement was made by the present Minister of Public Works. MR . PREFONTAINE: By the ex-Minister of Public Works. MR. SPEAKER: Well I'm afraid tha:t the ex-Micister of Pu blic Works is now Lieutenant Governor and •• ••• MR. PREFONTAINE: I understand it was made on behalf of the government of Manitoba by the Minister in office •• •• MR . SPEAKER: He is not subject to political controversy •• •• MR . PREFONTAINE: I accede to your ruling, Sir. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr.

Speaker, as a back-bencher, I would like the indulgence of the House to enter into this debate. Reverting back to the matter which YTas under discussion for the last half hour or so, I would like to say that I agree completely with the words January 28th, 1960 . Page 101.

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd.) ••••• voiced by my leader; but it occurred to me that there is a very im portant matter which was raised by the Leader of the Opposition and which my leader did not mention, and that has to do with the matter of tendering.

Now I would agree with my leader full well that although there is an indiscretion here it has perhaps been magnified out of all propor tion by the official opposition, but the question of the tendering of the contract for the construc tion of roads in that municipality is a very important one, and certainly I have not heard any response to the question raised by the Leader of the Opposition.

I don't know whether I am let ting my imagination run away with myself but it seems to me that this is a very gross violation and gross carelessness on behalf of a Minister of the Crown to give a very close approximation of the value of a contract, value of work needed in this cons truction, and I think that the govern ment should clarify this. Perhaps if they do it will be all to their benefit, but certainly clarify it. Have the tenders been let, or not? MR. STAN ROBERTS (LaVerendrye): Mr. Speaker, I would like to add to the words of the Honourable Member from Brokenhead.

On the same line the First Minister actually has by reference or inference admitted that one of his Ministers of the Crown has released information and proposed figures concerning a Public Works program for a municipality. I think we are all aware of how highly confidential this information must be of necessity, and I think we are all now aware that the information was released in this mann er. This has not been denied in any way and I would only like to pass reference to the remarks of the Honourable the First Minister when he said that we are amusing ourselves this afternoon discussing this matter. MR. A. E •.

CORBETT (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, as an engineer I think I could settle some of these questions about amounts. On all road work or any other contracts with the government, as a rule, there is an estimate made for the completed job. Sometimes that job may extend over two or three years and be let in person, and I am quite sure that the figures mentioned in this matter were no contract figures but probably the remains of estimates that were made one or two or three years ago� and I don't think there is anything been given away or anything terribly bad about mentioning these exact figures.

They were estimates that could have been made a year ago or it might have been a total amount of $1 million of which $600 thousand was done and there is $400 or $588 thousand left for the perimeter road. I'm quite sure that is just a residue of the former estimates and I don't think there is anything radically wrong in those figures at all. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, might I ask the Hunourable Member a question?

If that were the fact, would it not be the case though that when that particular remaining portion of the road is coming up for tender, that by giving that information in advance it would help the tender era in their estimating? MR. CORBETT: I don't think it has the slightest thing to do with it in the world because there's estimates made years in advance and the prices -- unit prices and such as that are merely-- have nothing to do with the money voted.

They tender on what they consider they can do the work for-- it it's a hundred thousand dollars above a hundred thousand dollar job why they can take it or leave it, but it don't influence any contractor that has got any common sense at all. · MR. CAMPBELL: In other words the engineer's estimates aren't very reliable. MR. MOLGAT: In closing this debate---- MR. SPEAKER: I would like to inform the member that there's no closure in this debate. MR. MOLGAT: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would refer you to Hansard March 19th, 1959, Volume II, No. 6, when the same matter came up and the usual authority that we consult here in the House, listed here as Mr. Roblin, said "Mr. Speaker, let him speak on the same issue." MR. SPEAKER: I might quote the Ontario rules and it's very clear in there. "A member desiring to move the adjournment for such a purpose must submit to the Speaker in advance"- well, that doesn't cover here because we don't do this, but at the end of the rule, "there is no right of reply by the member who introduces the motion. 11 It's quite clear. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, that rule is an Ontario rule and as such does not apply to our House. I submit that the rule that applies to our House is the rule that precedent has estab lished. A precedent has established in this Hansard that I quoted that there was a right to reply. Now if there was a right to rep l.y then, if none other than the First Minister said at that time, "Mr. Speaker, let him speak" why should I not be allowed the same right at this time? Page 102. January 28th, 1960.

MR . ROBLIN: Getting to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I always take a great interest in, these debates on matters of urgent public opinion be cause as members who have been here for any numb er of years will know that I've been the mover of such motions from time to time , and I can recall distinctly many occasions on which I was in a similar position to the Honourable :rvrem ber for Ste.

Rose , and which the right to close the debate was not given as it -- whatever he may be quoting from I haven't in front of me so I can't see the details of the matter -- I talm his word for it in that respect -- but I have been sat down.

I can recall an interesting resolution on freight rates on one occasion about 1952 when my honourable friend who sits opposite me now suggested to the then Speaker that there was no closure of debate and I was not allowed to speak ag�ln and I think that, generally speaking, in Parliaments of the Commonwealth that is the rule and I would commend that to the House at the present time. The quotation here is correct , __ I said, "Mr. Speaker, let him speak" and the member then spoke. Fortunately he didn't say too mu oh, it was of no account anyway being the Honourable Member for St.

George • s resolu tion , I think on floods or somethlng of the sort but, nevertheless, he did say words so it's in Hansard, and I freely admit that, but I submit to you, Sir, that you are right in saying that it's not in order and that the honourable member should merely ask that permission be given to withdraw the motion. IviR, CAM:PBELL : JI!Ir. Speaker, on the point of order. The honourable gentleman who has just ta_ll:en his seat says that such and such was done L71 times past, but this is the new or- der we have now.

This is the new order and it was my honourable friend himself who encouraged the establishment of this new custom that we do have the right to speak, and if my honourable friend at this stage having said, "Let the Honourable Member for SL Geo rge speak", when he had moved a similar motion, now says, "Don't let the Honourable J',;fember for Ste. Rose speak", we have rank discrimination. The Honourable the First Minister should not be allowed to dis play his evident prejudice in favour of the Honourable Member for St. Geo rge to the detriment of the Honourable Member for ste. Rose.

Now in fairness, and we demand fairness in this House, the only 'Nay for the honourable member to rectify this situation is to say "Let him speak. " MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, being one of the committee that is soon going to review the Rules of the House I've been looking into Beauchesne recently, and only this mo rning I saw the rule pertaining to this motion of debate on an urgent matter and you are perfectly c,orrect in your ruling which says that there is no reply to a mover of this reso lution. Now that is Beauchesne's third edition I believe .

Now then, Sir, having said that, that you are perfectly within your rights insofar as Beauchesne and rules of order are concerned, I respectfully suggest that the point raised, by the Leader of the Opposition is a valid one, because recently the practice has been to allow 2i. reply to the honourable mEmber who has raised this issue and I respectfully suggest to you, Sir, that again on a question of order , that past prece dent take place 01· be allowed to continue until we've really revised the rule s for our province. MR .

SPEAKER : The rules is in my opinion quite clear and it's true as a matter of courtesy, the First Minister did allow closure of the debate but this time he seems as though he is not willing to extend that courtesy again. It wasn't a ruling by the Speaker , it was a mat ter of courtesy of the House and I must take the stand of course that there is no closure of the debate. MR. PAULLEY: Sir, on a point of order I would suggest that it is not up to the First Minister to decide on the courtesies in this House. I realize he frequently does, but surely that decision is up to you, Sir , not up to him.( Interje ction).

Yes , but he S!fYS that the last time was on the basis of courtesy by you which I definitely do not accept. The last time the decision was by acceptance of the House and the rule has been established. lVIR . SPEAKER: That's what the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose said. He quoted the Hansard that the Speaker is always the servant of the House and if the House is agreeable to hear the debate, as they did on that occasion, well , it's true it takes place but that doesn't make it a rule of the House • IviR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Speaker , you just said the First Minister isn't prepared to extend the same courtesy this time. MR . SPEAKER: Yes. He ex".ended the courtesy on the other debate bu t---- MR . GUTTORMSON: It isn't up to him to extend the courtesy. You are the Speaker January 28th, 1960. Page 103 .

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd. ), •••• of this House, not Mr. Roblin. MR. SPEAKER: Well that's certainly true and that's why I'm not allowing the debate to continue to be closed on this motion because it's my right to say whether it is not. Are you ready for the question? MR. MOLGAT : Mr. Speak er, I believe the usual custom here is for the mover of this motion to ask that it be withdrawn , and while I would very much like to have closed the debate, I regret that the ruling does not permit me that which has been permitted in the past.

I would ask at this time that the motion be deleted, provided the First Minister is willing to extend me that cotu·tesy. MR . SPEAKER: In asking the House for another courtesy, is it the wish of the House that the motion be withdrawn? Agreed. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St. John. MR . D. ORLIKOW (St. John's): Before the Orders of the Day, yesterday I sent along- yesterday, lVIr. Speaker, not today, I sent along a question to the Honourable the Attorney General.

My question is as follows: The Winnipeg Free Press January 25th reports that John Paul Croteau was held in jail for five months without trial. He was held because he was unable to raise bail and while the Crown hunted two witnesses." I would like to ask the Attorney General how was this possible? How often do similar cases occur? What steps can be taken in the future to protect the rights of citizens? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Honourable Member for St. John's for giving me notice of this question.

May I say that a question in similar terms was also directed to me this morning by the Honourable Member from Inkster and I've taken note of it and will attempt to answer his question at the same time. The first question posed to me was:"How was this possible?" Referring to the news re port which appeared concerning the confinement or the detention of a man for five months before his charge was dismissed for want of prosecution by a county court judge. I think for the bene fit of the House, Mr. Speaker, I should give a very brief outline of the facts in connection with the case .

John Paul Croteau alias Charles Paul Sherwin, was arrested by the police on the 27th of August, 1959 on two charges; one of possession of an explosive substance, to wit, dynamite caps; and secondly, the possession of a firearm, namely a revolver, without a permit. On the 28th of August, the day following, he appeared in the City Magistrate's Court, represented by counsel as he was at all stages during these proceedings, and asked for a remand without plea.

That remand was granted by the sitting Magistrate and on that date bail was set at two sureties of $5, 00 0.0 0 each by the Magistrate, and at this point I should I think interject, Mr. Speaker, that bail of course is solely within the discretion of the presiding justice . I should also mention that the accused was represented -- at the time that bail was set that the accused was a transient having no fixed place of abode in the City of Winnipeg and that there was a previous criminal record to be considered, all of which are factors· which are taken into account by a court when arriving at bail.

On September the 4th, following the one week remand requested by the accused, he el ected to ·be tried by judge and without a jury and the preliminary inquiry into his charges was set to go on September 22nd, eighteen days later. On September 22nd the preliminary inquiry was held and the accused was committed for trial • His case was then set down for trial on the 21st of December, 1959 before His Honour Judge A. R. MacDonnell in the County Court Judges Criminal Court. I may say that the date of this trial was advanced well ahead of several other matters in view of the fact that the accused was still in custody.

I should also interject this fact, that the Assize regularly sit -- the Queen's Bench Assize regularly sits sometime from the middle of October until the middle of November, at which time the County Court Judges Criminal Court does not sit to hear criminal matters. On December 21st the accused, again still represented by counsel, appeared before Judge MacDonnell and at that time the Crown advised the court that they were unable to serve three material witnesses in this case.

I won't go into the details of why these witnesses were missing or anything of that nature because I don't think it is pertinent to the case. In any case his counsel, the accused's counsel on that occasion made a motion for the release of the accused on his own recognizance, but this was not granted by the court. The case was then adjourned by the court for one month, approximately to Janu ary 25 th, when the Crown again appeared and advised the court that they had been unable to Page 104. January 28th, 1960.

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd. ) •••• secure or find the witnesses who had left the province, and at this time there was -- the Cro wn also advised that there was a limited probability of their being able to get them. The defence counsel then made a· motion for dismissal for want of prosecution and Judge MacDonnell dismissed the accused from the charges before him. I may say in this con nection because it rises in the course of answering this question that other statements have been made to the effect that this man was incarcerated because of lack of cash.

I would merely point out to the House that it was not a question of lack of cash. The House is probably aware , Mr . Speaker , that sureties are required on bail bond - sureties who swear that they will pro duce this man at the time of his trial, and they enter into recognizance securing their property to the amount of the bond that is set by the courts. More often the question of who a man knows, who is a property owner, if the accused person knows property owners who will vouch for his appearance at the time of his trial date, then very often the question of bail is no question at all.

Those very briefly are the chronological circumstances leading up to the dismissal for want of prosecution . The second question asked by the honourable member, Mr. Speaker, was, how often do similar cases occur? I can answer that quite categorica lly by saying that this is the first case of this particular kind that has come to my attention while I've been Minister of the Department nor do I recall any cases of this kind when I was formerly attached to the department as a Crown Prosecutor,· that is, cases where witnesses are not available for the prosecution of the case.

I should also say, however, that it is quite possible sometimes, if a man elects for a jury trial at the close of an assize , he must wait until the next assize sits before his case can be heard and if he cannot raise bail, very often be cause he elects this way of his own volition, he must wait in gaol. But this does not occur too often. The third question -- What steps can be taken in the future to protect the rights of citizens ? I would make this reply, Mr. Speaker. There is a standing order of the department of which I am the head, and it has been in effect for many years.

I'm sure it was in effect during the time the Honourable Member from Ethelbert Plains held that office , that in the case of any accused person charged with a criminal offence and unable to raise bail, his case will be pro ceeded with as soon' as possible . The department has always acknowledged the principle that an accused is presumed innocent until he is proven guilty, hence tbis rule has always been obser ved. Nonetheless, I have instructed the Deputy Attorney-General to re-issue these instructions to all Crown Attorneys serving within the Province of Manitoba.

The second question, referring again to the third part of the question, "What steps are being taken in pursuance of this principle of having the trial come on as soon as possible ? Crown Attorneys are of course dependent upon the co-ope ration of the courts for the scheduling of cases. This co-operation I may say, Mr. Speaker , has always been extended by the court s. Nonetheless, I have instructed the Deputy Mini ster to confer with the courts again to insure that all such cases will receive top priority and dates secured for their hearing at the earliest possible moment that circumstances will permit.

It must be appreciated though, as I have men tioned, that there are times when, beca use of the election an accused makes , there are times wh�n he will have to wait longer for an Assize Court sitting because of course the Assize Court sits only four times per year. The Honourable Member for Inkster, I think, will find most of the questions that he asked answered in the course of this rather extended reply. If not, I would be pleased to hear if there is anything further he wishes information upon. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster) : Yes, Mr. Speaker, you have, but there is one more ques tion .

Was it not the duty of his lawyer to bring this matter to your attention that here is a man in gaol� can not get bail, they couldn't find the witnesses, and what are we going to do about it? Instead of you getting the information at such a late date? MR . LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would not be prepared to comment upon the duties of other counsel. I can only say that in this case the Crown was unable to secure the witnesses. At the last time this was ••••• MR . GRAY: The accus ed's lawyer. MR . LYON: Yes , I know that, Sir. I realize , Mr.

Speaker, but I can't make comment upon the accused's lawyer and bis duty toward other counsel. I'm only responsible for what my lawyers are doing or should be doing. Ali i can poi nt out was that he was represented throughout January 28th, 1960. Page 105 .

(Mr. Lyon, eont'd.) ••••• these proceedings by a counsel -- by a competent counsel. MR . J. M. HAWR):LUK (Burrows): ••••• ••••• Mr. Speaker, Is it possible that a case of that type, or any similar case where the accused who is found not guilty in this case, can accuse the Crown for keeping him for five months or whatever time the case may be ? MR . LYON: The honourable member is asking me a question which verges upon a legal opinion and I wouldn't be prepared to answer him right off the cuff. May I say that cases of the t-ype he evisages are not very common.

I have heard of actions being started but I wouldn't be prepared to give a legal opinion upon his question. MR . N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, be fore the Orders of the Day are called, I would like permission to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agricul ture. Did the Manitoba Government receive a commitment, verbal or written, that the Federal Government will pay half o1 the cost of the Emerg ency Assistance Program ? IviR.

HUTTON: Mr, Speaker, I am not quite sure as to what the Honourable Member from Gladstone means, but at the present time we have a verbal agreement with Ottawa that tha pro gram which has been approved of by the Government of Manitoba will be met on a 50-50 basis , Provincial and Federal. MR . SHOEMAKER: A subsequent question, Mr. Speaker, in view of the answer given. I wonder if the Honourable the Minister, Mr. Speaker , could explain why the Prime Minister of C anada in the House of Commons. yesterday indicated in reply to a question that no such co=it ment has yet been given? MR.

HUTTON : I wouldn't have the slightest idea of why the Prime Minister of Canada would make that remark, but I can only speak for Manitoba and I don't think that my honourable friend from Gladstone has any reason to doubt that the Federal Government will honour their commitment to meet 50% of the cost of this program. I think it is rather a superficial insinuation. MR . PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr . Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister and we had a little discussion yesterday in the ltmch hour. What would happen to those people that made their application later than January 23rd?

Would they still qualify for this emergency assistance? MR .. HUTTON: l\/Ir .. Speaker,. the purpo�e of the program is to help·people. We did by ._,./ press, radio and television endeavour to mal{e everyone in the Province of Manitoba acquainted with the fact that there would be assistance given and the other day I was questioned on the floor of this House as to why we were so slow in extending this assistance. And now the question has arisen as to why are the people so slow to ask for it?

I think that in the vast majority of the cases that ample time has been given for these people to go to the municipal office or the admin istrators in the local government districts and ask for an application or leave their name . If, however , there are any cases of extreme need, I would like to point out to the honourable mem ber that we have a Conservative Government in this province today and our business is to try and meet the needs of the people of Manitoba and we'll endeavour to do so. MR . WAGNER: A complementary question. The Honourable Minister says if extremely in need.

Well, I cannot interpret it in my own language, but, ••• MR. SPEAKER : The questioner may not enter into a debate. MR. WAGNER: What does he mean in extreme need? lVIR. HUTTON: Mr .

Speaker, I would like to point out to the Honourable Member for Fisher that as I have stated just previously if we -- I must feel that suff icient time has been given to the people to file their applications, but certainly if an occasion arises, and instances are brought to our attention where someone is going to suffer because for some reason beyond their control they couldn't get -- didn't have the opportunity to make application , we will give it consideration, but the deadline was set at the 23rd.

We have been accused of delaying this assistance and now we are fa ced with the accusation that we haven't given the people long enough to get their applications in. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minis te:·. The Federal Government has announced they're bringing refugees into Canada with tuber culosis . Are any of these refuge es coming to Manitoba? MR . ROBLIN: I understand, Mr. Speaker, that we are receiving and we may have al ready received, I'm not positive, some 12 refug ees , TB refug ees. When I say l2 that's the num ber of TB patients .

Of course they bring their familie s with them which boosts the total Page 106. January 28th, 19 60.

(Mr. Roblin , cont'd.) ••••• considerably. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr . Speaker, I was referr:ing to the new group that's com:ing :in, not the group that's already here. HON . GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health & Public Welfare) (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I believe I'm more acquainted with this question than the First Minister at this moment. When Canada first decided to bring lOO tubercular refugees to Canada the provinces were approached and asked to tal'e a proportionate share of the population, and our share, the number they asked us to receive were six.

Subsequent to that they asked us to take some more and they asked us if we could take 10 refugees, and that is the number that have arrived last week and are now in St. Boniface Sanitorium. I might add, Mr . Speaker, that in addition to the 10 refugees their families came with them. In total there would be about 35 excluding the 10 patients and these families have been looked after by the Department of Immigration of the Federal Government in be:ing placed. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Speaker, the government is announcing they're bringing others in additi:on to the lOO that have already arrived in Canada, That's the thing I'm asking about. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli) : I have not received any notification from the federal authorities to receive any more than the 10 which Manitoba has agreed upon. MR . SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for St. Vital for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answ er to his speech at the opening of the Session, and the amendment thereto standing in the name of the Honourable Lead er of the Opposition.

The Honourable Member for St. Matthews . MR . W. C. MARTL.l\f (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, may I first of all jo:in with the others who have expressed their appreciation to you of the splendid way in which you are carrying out your duties and winning the respect of the members of all groups in this Ibu se. I know that there have been times, and not in the very far past, when you have faced the storm and conflict of discussion and debates on rules of order and procedure and so forth, but you've always em erged in the role of a victorious hero .

There is a poet who talks about being --- heads being bloody yet unbowed. Well I haven't seen anY signs , Sir, that your beleaguered head has been bloody; neither has it been bowed. I use that word of course in a parliamentary sense , Sir. May I offer also my congratulations to the a.ew members . We didn't get all the :ty-elec tions . I congratulate those who have been elected, and from whai I heard yesterday from the Member for Rhineland, the ways I watched his vot:ing rather gave me the impression that his desires and incli nations were turned towards the gove=leut benches.

I express the fond hope that before very long Rhlneland will return to our folds . But I think I have a special word of congratulation to the newly elected member for Cypress. When we watched the Member for Cypress being escorted to the foot of the Throne by two oi' the members of thisHouse my thoughts travelled back to that hectic day in the parliamentary history of Britain when Mrs.

Emily Pank hurst and others were escorted, not to the foot of the Throne, Sir , but to the gaol and they were crusaders seeking to win their cause for women's right the matter of franchise, So yesterday Sir, when I saw the Member for Cypress go:ing to the foot of the Throne and receiving from you the right hand of reception and then taking her place as a member of one of Her Majesty's halls of legislature I believed that if the spirits of those gallant crusaders were looldng dovm upon this assembly they would have seen of the travail of their efforts and they would have been satis fied, Now the mover, the Honourable theLeader of the Opposition, in moving the amendment to the Resolution in reply to the Speech from the Throne deplores that the government has fai led to implement many of the most important promises dur:ing three election campaigns.

I would like to point out, Mr . Speal{er, that I was rather surprised or :interested in the fact that he made no solitary reference to perhaps the most important promise made by the Conservative Parties on the hust:ings, namely the social well-being of the people. I believe of course , there are many reasons for this .

He should give it a wide berth because it was a field that was sorely and sadly neglected by the administration of which he was the head but with the advent of the Roblin Gov ernment the Departments of Health and Welfare unfolded new horizons of hope and opportunity for the many thousands of our needy and afflicted and handicapped citizens . This is no broken pro mise Sir. I think perhaps the silence of the Leader of the Opposition admitted that. Once the legisla tion was placed upon the Statute Book the machinery was put into operation and in full January 28th, ),960. Page 107 .

(Mr. Martin, cont'd. ) ••••• swing and the officials of the department laboured industriously and at long hours preparing to provide a system of welfare and assistance that would be acceptable and would be commensurate with all the needs. We are hearing sometimes the word delay in much of this legislation. I recall that the Minister of Health and Welfare as Minister of Health was on many occasions severely chastized because of his undue haste in br inging the hospitali zation program into force.

The Minister of He alth and Welfare as the Minister of Welfare has faced an onslaught of criticism beca use he is not moving fast enough. In the one case it was "What's the bnrry? Let's see that the job is thoroughly and well done,'! andthe other case is , "Why the delay?

Let's get on with it," My. honourable friend the Leader of the CCF speaking to the amendment referred to the statement made last July concerning the question of social assistance and then he said "July, that's six months ago", but I would like to remind my honourable friend and the members of the House as I have already suggested during those six months the officials of the department have been working out the details determined to give to the people of Jlf.anitoba social benefits based upon the highest possible standards • To build a system of social welfare that will stand the . test of time and experience and will not have to be torn apart and rebuilt and reconstructed.

The Honourable the Leader for the CC F quoted the Minister as saying, and I quote from January 22nd on page 46 the words of the Minister of July last ''I would hope to put as much effort into it as we could and start in right away and up until the end of October -- November we should be getting some of these things going. I don't think it would be fair" and the member the Honour- able Leader of the CCF interjected the remark and I say this in all justice to iny friend "I don't think it would be fair for me at this time with the tremendous changes that have occurred here to give a firm statement. 11 Now Mr.

Chairman, you will see Mr. Speaker, two or three things set forth there. One was that the Minister was starting in right away to get things going. Secondly that he didn't give any firm commitment as to time. And then they were aware of changes and during the intervening months have become increasingly aware of the tremendous changes that would have to be made. And in the last place they have worked with all possible speed to, and I quote a headline of an

article in the Tribune "To Blaze a Trail of Welfare". The Honourable Member for St. John's had words of praise for the Minister. He said, f;ake the load off the municipalities that's a good thing, social allowances for the aged and the - blind and the disabled that's a wonderful thing but the criticism in his criticism, the criticism of others seems to be reduced to the time factor and I can assure you Mr.

Speaker , that when the Minister of Health and Welfare addresses this House upon this question that factor will be satisfactorily explained to the people . · The Leader of the CCF recognized the immensity of the task and suggested that when the Minister proclaimed the Act he should have said that they would start receiving applications on the day that the Act was proclaimed beca use he said it would take three months to process them, he realizing as we all realize how this takes time. But I liked his remark, it was in triguing, in July to October, October it was sort of Novemberish, in November it was •••• MR.

PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't like to interject but my honourable friend is going along fastly but I believe the quotation that I was using of the three months was a quote of the Minister who said it would take three months, it was not my own remark. MR. MARTIN: I'll accept that. But my honourable friend said in October it would be Novemberish and in November it would be sort of first of Januaryish and then in January it would be sort of Februaryish. It was the "ish" Sir , that interested me .

I believe Sir, that perhaps that part of the vocabulary of the CCF is their poli cy of "wish and wishes and wishing" and so I would like to take that word from their language and use it as their vernacular and say that I believe that all the opposition criticism of government policies is "iberish Jibberish". My friends opposite would give the impression that they and they alone are the cham pions of the well-being of the people. If they feel that they can do a better job than the present government is doing why didn't they get on with that job when they were in power?

And if they could have given satisfactory evidence that they could do the job that the government is tackling they would t_oday Sir , be sitting on this side of the House. The fact of the matter is that the members of this House, all the members of this House, of whatever political complexion, if they were prepared to give an unbiased, unprejudiced, conscientious appraisal of the situation, instead of speaking of broken promises they would be forced to admit that the· government is Page 108 . January 28th, 1960.

(Mr. Martin, cont•d. ) ••••• not callously minded or negligent in dealing with vital problems and questions that concern the well-being of the people. We made promises and we made them in free elections and when the next election comes we'll be making promises again. But I want to say that those promises whatever they were, to whatever department they referred will be aptly fulfilled and when the time comes to go before the electors the people will once again place the stamp of approval upon the government's achievements and I haven't any doubt at all in that.

In all things touching the people's well-being and the progress of the province this government has not shown itself an administration that seeks to hoodwink the people with lavish and gilt edged promises which represent nothing more than vote-catching propaganda. The people el ected this administration to power and as soon as the members of tre government took their place at the council table they set to work in a manner unprecedented in the parliamentary life of this province to do the job entrusted to them and they have never, never been found wanting.

All classes of the citizenry have received full and fair consideration. The children in the rural parts of the province as well as in the urban centres have had thrown open for them a gateway to a standard of education which will fit them for a useful and lucrative place in a highly com petitive world. We remember how it was a year ago when the mambers of all the parties in this House stood up and were counted in support of this new and far reaching program of education.

Or in agriculture , I"m not a farmer, I think that' s the reason I've said before why I am not a farmer because I'd hate a job where I had to get up -up 0n it in the dark. The farmer has been somewhat in the doldrums we have been told. But we were interested this afternoon in the remarks of the present Minister of Agriculture, the farmer who looks like a farmer and with the watch job for the farmer of Manitoba in their dealings with Ottawa recognize that they have a full responsibility and that is to do that which is in the best interests of the farmer.

And I am prepared to say this afternoon that no other government in the life of this province has attempted to give aid and support to the farmer and the farm industry on so large a scale as that which is being developed at the present time . I was interested last night in turning on my television to listen to a news item from the bureau of statistics.

It was very brief but sufficient to show that Manitoba seems to be in a much preferred position from most of the provinces of Canada and the improvement of 1959 over 1958 was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6 millions of dollars, Now I don't know just all that is included in this but one thing I do know, that two general elections in this province have made it dramatically clear that the farmers of Manitoba have faith in the present government and despite all criticisms to the contrary when the time comes for another declaration of the people's will in rural Manitoba the result will be the same.

We come to the road building program . The Speech from the Throne referred to it -l ast year was the best record in our history. My honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition takes issue with that. He says it was the worst on record. He says it was the biggest bungle that this government has made. Well ,Sir, he said it without offering any vestige of proof to substantiate his charge, just said "It's the biggest bungle this government has made".

Well Sir, if the road building program of this government is the biggest bungle that this government has made, then Sir, the government can take real pride of a record of splendid achievements in every department of this work. And tourism. I don't know that the former administration or any former administration took this side of our !ife too seriously or took full advantage of this aspect of industry in M ani toba. Now we are reaching out. You pick up magazines from other countries and we're spending mo;ey to advertise and it pays to advertise. I think it was the Member for St.

Boniface who said that something was done the other day for publicity prrposes, It pays to advertise and we have something to sell. When it comes to tourism we have impressive scenery to sell to all who come, be autiful lakes , flowing rivers abounding with fish that would attract the Disciples of Isaac Walton and many points of historical interest. The Department of Commerce and In dustry has embarked upon a program of expansion which is yielding far"'i"eaching returns. There is one feature of the Department of Commerce and Industry that my honourable friend the Leader of Opposition does not like.

That's the Manitoba Development Funcl. but he voted for it and he saidhev oted for itbecause the friends opposite, the government promised it. Well if he voted for itbecause theypromised it, in his heart of hearts he must have known it was going tob� good� do f whatever the government promised they would make good and that's why be voted upon their promise • January 28th, 1960. Page 109.

(Mr. Martin, con t'd. ) ••• Accusations are being levelled against the government because they promised to do things , not to stall . He might have added, as we did not to wait around . He �ight have added as we did "shades of Micawber • waiting fo r som ething to turn up. 11 He labels the government as being a spendthrift administration and yet like hungry Oli ver Twist he reaches up his hands and asks for more and more and mo re . He cries aloud for the carrying-out and implementation of all the goverument policies in every field of endeavour and yet he deplores the cost.

All "sorts of dire predictions are being heard Mr. Speaker, in these days . You remember just the othe r day whenoin a jocu lar mood the Leader of the Opposition said in view of somet hing that had happened at LaRiviere , well it's all right, the goverument 's on the skids . Well , I'm satis fied that my ho nourable friend said that with his tongue in his cheek. He's the father of the House but this is one time when "Fa ther doesn't know best" •.

I know he is gifted with a fine sense of humour and I'm satisfied that many of his hard hitting criticisms of the administration and the various Ministers' departments , he's just having his little joke . But you know he 's a go od natured fellow but he has a knack of makinp.; it with a ste!'IL countenance and earnest ton es . Well father knows better but he's not prepared to admit U;. There are many inspiring things Mr. Speaker , in the Manitoba scene.

Manitob a is not the oldest or the largest province but the growth in population and in economic progre ss and in the development of our natural resources is phenomenal . Time was when they looked upon this part of the country as "Gateway to the We st. " Now we are thinking of it in terms of gateway to the illimitab le empire of the north. The north with its thriving ocea n port, with the development of gigantic mining enterprises that in time to come will surpass even the greatest achievements in this field in eastern Canada.

These things make our north country destined to be one of Canada's richest posses sions . Then when we come further south here is anothe r thing that is putting Manitob a on the map, the establ ishment of a nuclear research plant which will out-rival in the time to come the great development of Chalk Rive r. And then right here within the bor ders of Greater Winnipeg the International Airport that will one day be perhaps the busiest and most vital centre of air transpor tation on the North American continent . Many encouraging factors.

For instance we had placed on our desk yesterday the annual report of the Manitob a Powe r Commission. Just let me read from one of the pages. "The far reaching effects of a suppl y of low cost electrical energy are of growing importance to Manito ba's eco nomy . In her const antly expanding residential areas , the electrifie d farms and the develop ing industrial areas comes a continually increasing demand. The Manitob a Power Commissi on of enlarging and bolstering its system woUld assure an adequate supply of energy to the residents of the province .

" Then also we had placed upon our desks the progress report for the year 1959 of the Manitob a Telephone System, Are we growi ng? Are we advancing? Listen to this; the net gain in subscribers' telephones is 18 ,990, a new record. Comparison to previous year's opera tion shows the follow ing: in 1956--58 rather-1.3 ,107; in'57- 11, 896; in '56 - 11, 890. From the fore going it can be seen that the demand for the system's services is continually increasing and is closely linke d with the continued econo jll ic development of our provin ce . 0 All these things and many othe rthings Mr.

Speaker, are helping to fasten thegazeo f Can ada and the world upon Manitob a. And all these thlngs demand that at all levels of goverument , whether it be the tov mship, council or municipal or city council that there should be forth seeing and wise and businesslike leadership. And I think I can say, Mr. Speaker, that we are very fo r tunate at all levels of government by and large here, in the Province of Manitob a, but at highest level of government, the proVincial goverument it has been impressively displa yed.

I take issue with my hon ourable friend the Leader of the Opposition when he disputes the statement in the Throne Speech that there has been substantial and satisfactory progre ss in all the principal fields of responsib ility of the provincial gove rnment. Mr.

Speaker, in due cou rse inothis House and in this session opportunity will be furnished for the ministers to present their side of the argument and their respo nsibility ., .of the matters that concern their different departments and their statements and speeches will show conclusively beyond peradventure or any doubt that what the Throne Speech stated and what was stated upon the hustings in tho se elections is well within the reabris offact.

And so I say to my hono urable friends opposite in patience preserve your soul s for the road ahead for Manitob a is not a narrow trail ••• streWn with broken promises but a broad highway of progre ss and prosper ity which in thd closing words of your pray er, Mr. Speaker, shall be "for the welfare of all our people ." Page 110. January 28th, 1960.

:MR. M. N. HRYHO RCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains ): Mr. Speaker, once again I want to extend to you my sincerest wishes and congratulations . I hope you will remain in the con trol of this House for many years to come. I also want to extend my congratulations to the mov er and the se conder of the address. I think they did a job very, very well. There are always two sides to every story and evidently there are two sides to the story we just heard.

I was going to try and return the House to the congenial atmosphere we had here a short while ago but that is not to be because I think that it is our duty to turn the page over and read the other side and see whether everything is so ship-shape as the Hono:trable Member for St. Matthews leads us to believe. . There is one very evident difference in the front ranks of the government at this ses sion and that the demeanour. Last year we saw a lot of buoyant enthusias m, t.'le cockiness of youth, shall I call it? This year that has been replaced by the furrowed brow, the worried frown.

I couldn't put my finger on just what was wrong in the first few days of the ses sion but I believe that the Honourable Member for St. Vital gave us the answer at least in part. And I would like to quote what he had said that made me think, and I stm think that that is the answer.

On page ten of volume four, number two, you will find the following sentence, and I q·,wte, and he was talking at the time about the Social Allowance Act; "and I give to my honourable friend the Minister of Health and Welfare a great deal of credit for the many hours of work" and I direct the attention of the members of the House to ·.the balance of this se ntence, "and the frustration that he put into his new program". Well, I don't think that the Honourable Minister put any frustration into his own program.

I don't think that he will want to baffle his own fond dreams or anything to that nature but I do agree, Mr. Speaker, that I do believe that the Honourable Minister was somewhat frustrated and is. And I think that frustration runs right through the whole of the f1·ont ran ks . Give them credit whe re credit is due, and I want to say, Mr. Speak er, that I for one--I think of every member in this House, not of man y but for every member in the House I can say that the Honourable Minister is hard-working, consci entious and sincere. There is no two ways about that.

When he brought in the Social Allowances Act I can still hear that ringing voice of his about the people that are in need in Manitoba will ba looked after. There will be no needy; they shall have every attention they need and so forth. But he is using a sort of unique, strange method of feeding these needy. During the last session he told us that he had the answer to their ills and I think he has 'to some extent and he has the prescr iption for them and I think he did to a degree. But what did he do with tl:at presc ription?

That particular treatment that he is going to give the needy in the Province of Manitoba, he put it into a sy ringe and he dangled it before the eyes of the needy in the Province of Manitoba last July and he is doing the same thing now. He still hasn't treated the patient. The patient isn't better off today than he was six months ago. In fact, I wonder if some of the patients are still around that he was going to treat six months ago. Why so ? Why so? Mr.

Speaker, if my memory serves me right we voted money for this program at the last ses sion--and here the legislation has not been implemented--it is still going 1:t> be proclaimed on the first of February. And I want to point out, Mr. Speaker, that the Honourable Minister, in spite of his good intentions, would find it pretty difficult to treat these patients before the end of the fiscal year and if we voted money for the program then that money will not be sp ent to carry out that program. And might I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that probably that'll help to give us a surplus for this fiscal year as predicted by the Honourable the First Minister. It is not sufficient to make plans , have good intentions, p ut down legislation--that is all necess ary--but the implementation of them is the important thing and I say that is where the Honourable the Minister of Health has failed very badly. I think, in fact, that it is downright cruel the way he has given all this hope to the people in the province and then dashed it. And he comes back again this ses sion and he says "well, we'll do it now. " Well what assurance have we, Mr.

Speaker, that the same isn't going to happen in the next fiscal year that happened in the current one? Well, I notice the juveniles are getting older all the time. It wasn't my plan but it's the natural course of events and I only say the juveniles in the province are older now--that's the only difference. Now, insofar as the Minister of Health is concerned, I want to repeat that I think he is doing as good a job as circumstances will permit him to, and circumstances wi thin his own front benches. But that isn't the only place we see frustration.

Let's take a very good look at my very good friend the Honourable Minister of Education. Now if there ever was a case of January 28th, 1959. Page 111.

(MF.-Hryoorczuk,- cont1d.}- .. -frustration; I think he fits that description perfectly and they are all self-inflicted wounds . He can't blame anyone for them although he has been searching for a scapegoat for some time now but I don't think he has been very successful. Not so very long ago, according to the press, he let the people of the province know that he had some type of a board in mind that would negotiate teachers 1 salaries on behalf of the trustees of this province. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin) : I made no such state ment at any time. · MR.

HRYHORCZUK: Would the Honourable Minister tell me what is correct? Was there some board mentioned? I take the Honourable Minister's word. I have no reason to doubt it. I never have in the past but there was mention of some type of legislation or some type of action by the Honourable, the Minister of Education, to assess the local trustees in negotiating salaries with the teachers.

Now whatever form that was to take, I don't know--p robably we'll hear more about it before the session ends--but our difficulty today, as I see in the Province of Manitoba insofar as financing our education is concerned, is entirely the doing of the Minister of Education. Had he followed the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Education and brought in merit rating and set the ceiling on salaries where increments entered into the picture , we wouldn't have those difficulties today. The solution was there for the taking. But with all due respect, Mr.

Speaker, I say that the Minister was not looking primarily toward the interests of the taxpayers of this province but his eyes were turned toward political expediency at the time the canvass was made on the vote of the divisions. A very peculiar thing happened just a short while ago in the Honourable Minister's con stituency. As you know, Mr. Speaker, there is a larger area in that constituency established quite a number of years ago. I believe it is called the Dauphin-Ochre area.

The p-eople of this area were asked to vote as to whether they wanted to come in under the new scheme--the new division plan or remain under the plan that was established by the former government. For me it was rather strange that the Minister used as much effort, time and expense to sell the people of the area the idea that they should vote against the division as he spent in selling the rest of the province the idea of voting for the divisi on.

And for some time prior to the vote, the Dau phin Herald, which is the local paper, carried full page ads of \Vhy Dauphin should vote for re taining the area instead of voting for a division. Now it does seem strange, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister would admit that the larger area scheme was a better one than the division scheme and that he did not initially follow up the idea of larger area in place of divisions .

It would be interesting to know just how much money was spent and whether it was government money that was spent in convincing the people of Dauphin to vote in retention of the area rather than the di vision. Now another inconsistency insofar as the Minister of Education is concerned, last year when we asked him to give the same grant to the divisions for school construction immaterial to the size of the school, he wouldn't bend one iota. He tried to sell the House the idea that we want large school buildings where we can have centralization of education. MR. McLEAN: Correction there--! never said that. · MR.

HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Speaker, whether the Honourable, the Minister said it or not, he left that imp ression with me and I am quite sure that he left that imp ression elsewhere. Now insofar as the larger schools receive bigger grants are concerned, he stuck to that and he wouldn't give, as I said. But lo and behold this year, he's not sure that he wants many rooms in any given school in the province because I have been told that he or his department has been dissuading school divisions from building schools which in their opinion are a little too large for the present time.

Now I think it is about time that the Minister made up his mind whether they should be large, whether they should have many rooms or whether they should have few rooms. And I think in the question of what the grant should be, since he has changed his mind in one direction, I hope he changes his mind so far as the percentage of the grants is concerned also. Now we come to the public works department, the Honourable Member for St. Matthews figured programs last year and he thought that if everything went as well in the rest of the work of the government as it did in highways, they would have a lot to be proud of.

Well, I am sorry to say, Mr. Speaker; that I can't see that argument at all. Evidently the Honourable Member for St. Mat�hews has not travelled the province of Manitoba. I don't see any of those twentieth Page 112. January 28th, 1960.

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) .. century roads we were promised. I just don't see them. I se � a lot of dirt thrown up for miles and miles through the province, left in a condition last fall that if we have an early breakup that these roads will be impassa ble. If that is something to be proud of well then maybe the member for St. Matthews is correct. Just to give you an example of how disorganized this department has been, you will re call that at last ses sion I spoke about the recreational roads being put through the Duck Moun tains , one of our finest recreational areas in the Province of Manitoba.

I told you at the time that the road running from the east to the west was complete and that the road running from the north to the south was in the process of being completed. At that time there was still a mile and a half of right-of-way to scrub and this mile and a half of right-of-way is approximately 35 miles from the nearest settlement. In order to get this work done the people living in the area had to take in their own accommo dations in the way of cabooses, old granaries fixed up for the winter, look after their own board, their own transportation to clear this last mile and a half.

They got started on this work last November. They pulled up their accommo dations at considerable expense. Some of these were broken in transportation because they had to go through narrow roads in the mounta ins. Lo and behold within a month after they started this work, they had completed a mile--there was still three-quarters of a mile to go--and the order came out --"dlsmiss the men. That is the end of the work".

And these men had to draw their sleep ing accomm odations back 30 to 40 miles and three-quarters of a mile of the scrubbi ng is left undone and I have very serious doubts as to whether i.t is going to be easy to complete be cause nobody is going to go to the trouble and expense of pulling accomm odations 43 miles away to spend three weeks of work. Now if that is called good organization--if that is called the im plementation of sound policy--then there is something wrong with my reas oning because that work should have been completed.

I do hope--! do hope that we will have more facts, less for gery from this department. Now the Depa rtment of Agricultu re--and I want to com pliment the Honourable the Min ister for doing a good job under the circumstan ces . I believe that the government is pretty proud of its crop insuranc e. It'll have three test areas set up. It will have quite a number of meetings to acquaint the farmers with what the crop insurance plan is � But I am afraid the Honourable Minister is going to be very disappointed.

I have just heard this morning that in one of these meetings--in one of these test areas , the vote against the scheme was just around 90%. Now my information may be wrong and I hope it is . I hope it is. Probably the Minister, when the occasion arises, will tell us whether I was right or wrong. But when you begin to come to 90% against the scheme, then there is definitely, Mr. Speaker, something wrong with the scheme. And I don't think that it is so hard to put your finger on what is wrong with the scheme.

Some of those rates run up to 16%--if my information is correct--and that means that a farmer would have to give every sL-Tih year's work, the revenue from every sL-nh year's work for the protection he receives in five. The rates are high . 'rue benefits are small. --(inter jection)- -It all depends--Pm talking about the higher rates- -and it all depends on what the se rates are going to be. But you have put a maximum, I think, of 16 1/2%, if I'm not mistaken. I think that's what it is. And the benefits in compa rison are very small because a farm er can suffer considerable losses on his farm .

He could harvest the crop way below what it cost him and still not rece ive any benefits. Now the reason for that, of cour se, is obvious because the government is not contributing enough to the scheme . They are asking the farmer to carry just too much of a load. Now let's just take a look at this disaster payment this year to the farmers which was mentioned this afternoon. And I have read an application form before me and it starts off with "as a result of snowfall, Octo�er 1959, farmers who may be eligible for assi stance" and so forth.

Well, I would like to point out to the Honourable Minister that there are quite a large number of farmers in this province who suffered damage due to rainfall, and the damages they suffered are just about as great as those that were suffered by the farmers who had snow da mage, receive no considera tion here at all. Now here is a qu estion that the farmer is asked to answer. And it says that I am not eligible for an award u,nder the Prairie Farm Assist ance Act. ..... Well, again , Mr. Speaker, if my information is correct, there are some areas that are still under inspection insofar as the PFAA is concerned.

If that is true , how can a farmer who resides in that type of area honestly and sincerely answer that q{restion? He January 28th, 1960. Page 113.

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont1d. ) .. doesn't know the answer and he won't know the answer until the finding is made known to him. One other thing that he may like to write. It may look insignificant on the surface but that is the rumor, or probably a little more than a rumor , of the governm ent intending to dis continue or in some way reduce its purebred sire policy of assisting in the purchase of pure bred bulls. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think this is the worst time of all to bring in such a policy.

Most of our farmers are making ends meet simply because they are relying on cattle, on the sale of cattle, the one of few items that is still holding steady for the farmer. And we know that if we lose our markets that even that item may slip as badly as the others have. We also know that in order to meet com petition we have got to raise the best livestock that we can pos sibly raise. And I want to say, Mr. Spgaker, that as far as that particular policy was concern ed, it was o'J.e policy that brought in a lot of good cattle blood into the herds of this province. And I say, Mr.

Speaker, that the Honou rable, the Minister, should reconsider his decision to either reduc e or discontinue that policy. Now let us briefly take a look at the Minister of Public Utilities. Here I do not think there is any frustration but I do think, Mr. Speaker, that this particular departm ent has caused frustration to some of the other departm ents in the government and I think that the biggest cause for frustration to some members of the government is the treatment that · TV b this province has received from the Honourable Minister of Public Utilities.

The other day he told us that the tests to have TV go into Manitoba and the northwestern parts of the province were discontin ued because the equipment was not up to the standard that the CBC asked for. Well, under the circumst ances, it is understandable why nothing was done . Probably that was the answer and I take it for granted that it was . The CBC wasn't satisfied with the equipment. But I would ask the Honourable Minister why did he throw a block into the Yorkton station? Certainly the CBC was satisfied with the standards there.

They even granted them a license to broadcast from a point known as Baldy Mountain in the Duck Mountain to several thousand residents of this pro vince. The Yorkton station went to the trouble of putting in the base and bringing in some sup pli.es . Now it is at a standstill. And I ask the Honour able Minister whether it is a coincidence that two members of the cabinet are from The Pas and Flin Flon.

Do they feel that if Dauphin happens to receive the se rvice, including my own constituency, and Daup hin and a few others, that it will be pretty hard for him to answer his own constituency and The Pas as to why they haven't that service? For the world of me, Mr. Speaker, I can see no reason for blocking the efforts that are being made by the CBC and the Yor!don station to give several thousand people of this province TV service and I would like to know the answer in due cours e.

Now there is one other thing insofar as this departm ent is concerned that I think should be drawn to the attention of the House and that is the recent establishment of an appeal board to which sus pended drivers , certain types of suspe nded drivers, can appeal. Now if I understand the reason for this appeal board correctly, it is to try and help those upon whom a hardship is caused by a suspension. Mr.

Sp9aker, if a person is suffering a hardship, it no doubt is a fin ancial one of one type or another, and yet the same board before it will hear an appeal from a person who is suffering from financial hardships will not do so unless he pays the sum of $20. 00 to be heard. That is· correct and if I' m wrong I would like to be corrected. Now isn't that go ing just a little bit too far? This government has been cutting down services of all kinds and asking those that are obtaining these services to pay certain fees and some of them are pretty exorbitant.

Is it possible it won't be long before we will have our judges of the various courts asking for fees before they will hear any cases ? And I think that insofar· as this appeal board is concerned that it might be wise to review the thing and see if this $20 .0 0 fee--if there is such a fee--shouldn't be discontinued. Now, of cou rse, most of these frustrations emanate from the Provincial Treasurer. He depended so much on his big brother and teacher in Ottawa for his financial assistance which wasn't forthcoming that he probably finds himself a bit short.

In fact, I'm quite sure he does because the other day on the radio he was blaming the former govern ment for his plight. Any time I hear anybody blaming som ebody else for the position they find themse lves in, I be gin to get suspicious . And I think that the Honourable First Minister is very thankless because the inheritance that he received from the former government was a grand one . In fact, most of his pet projects were financed by that inheritance. And I do think that he at least should tell Page 114. January 28th, 1960.

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) .. the people of this province that that ts a fact. And I think that the whole trouble in the front benches there is that their plans and their policies are geared to vi sions instead of realities and they must understand that it is one thing to make a promise in an election campaign and it is an entirely different matter when you make a commitment on the floor of the House and even put legislation on the books and then don't implement it. A MEMBER: Hear! Hear ! MR.

HRYHORCZUK: And I would say to the Honourable F-irst Minister in all sincerity that it is about time that we got down to earth. Let's forget about politics for a little while and give the people of this province value for their tax dollar. A MEMBER: Hear ! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. JOHN A. CHRISTIANSON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Sp-eaker, first let me say how happy I am to see you back in your accustomed place. You are performing a difficult job most capably and I hope that you will continue to occupy this Throne for some time to come.

My com pliments also to the mover and seconder of the Speech from the Throne--the reply at least. I, too, would like to hear more from the Honourable Member from Rupertsland. I would like to give my greetings also to the four new members who are here for the first time and particular ly to the very charming member from Cypress. We welcome you all tO this chamber and I am sure that already you have felt the air of history and of majesty that clothes this Chamber. Let me assure you that this feeling will continue to grow on you.

You will never cease to marvel at the foresight of our predecessors in the design and construction of this structure. It was conceived, surely, in a moment of genius as a legislative building, as a symbol for the maje sty of the government of this province and also as an administration building. It has for some time now been too small as an administration building but it will never, no matter how rich or how great the province of Manitoba may become, cease to be a most fitting place for the meeting place of this legislature.

It is the most beautiful building of its type on the North American con tinent and it belongs , Mr. Speaker, to all the people of Manitoba. However, the responsibility for the land around it rests with the City of Winnipeg and the beauty of a building such as this can only reach its full expression if it has the proper set ting and surroundings. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the time has come when the city must stop and look to its responsibilities to the people of Manitoba with regard to this whole area.

If they were to institute even a very cursory study of this area and of the probable future needs of the province in the way of new accommodation of the needs of the area in regards to parks and traf fic handling facilities, it would be apparent that this is not the place for their new City Hall. I suggest, Sir, that in the interests of all Manitoba this whole area should be set aside as a provincial government centre and a plan to be set in motion to develop it--to complement it and enhance the beauty and majesty of this edifice. Manitoba is a big province. There is ample room in it and in Winnipeg.

Let us use some of this room and not crowd our public buildings one on top of another. Let them be inspired by our predecessors who have here built so nobly. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal for a few moments with one or two points that have been raised in the--by the Leader of the Oppos ition in regard to some of the promises made by this government on the hustings in the last several elections. There has been much said by our friends about education and about how taxes have increased due to the new school plan.

Some of o'.lr liberal friends have even used that favourite CCF trick of mathematical manipulation to confuse the issue and when you start talking about special levies, general lev ies , mill rates l!.nd assessmen ts, it's pretty easy to confuse it. It is true, Mr. Speaker, that there is more money going into education and there should be . But how much of this money is coming from the local taxpayer--from local property taxes? Let us look for a moment at the fair City of Portage la Prairie. Now the total tax collected for school purposes in the year- calendar year 1957 amounted to $200, 267. 20.

Iri 1959, while the assess ment of the town had grown, (it is difficult to· estimate exactly how much because in 1958 there was a complete re assessme nt) the total taxes collected in 1959 were $220, 591 . This is an increase of almost exactly ten per cent. I would say though, Sir, that the rate of growth in Portage la Prairie would indicate that the rate of taxation had increased, if at all, very, very little. However, what about enrollment? Total enrollment in the city schools in 1957, including both elementary and secondary pupils from Portage, amounted to 1, 937.

In 1959, total enrollment had grown to January 28th, 196 0. Page 115.

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd. ) .. 2153, an increase of 216 or almost 11%. Now every time you in crease the student population by approximately 30 pupils, ·you need another classroom, so, ob viously we had an increase of six or seven classrooms. The actual cost per student, and this is the important thing, in 1957 was $103. 39, in 1959 $102. 41, o� a decrease of • 989. Clearly, Sir, the added money going into the educational system is coming from increased provincial grants made possible in part by the generosity of our much maligned friends in Ottawa.

What appears to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition as unseemly haste is only so in comparison to the unseemly delay of the previous government in matters of education. MEMBERS: Hear ! Hear ! MR. CHRlSTIANSON: Our young people, Sir, are our most valuable asset. Their pri mary and secondary education is the foundation upon which they will build their careers. The future of Manitoba is also their future. It is our responsibility to see that the educational op portunities are there for all and this I think we have done. This government can be proud of the steps it has taken in education.

These are not broken promises and the people of Manitoba know it. MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, along with the speakers previously, I would like to add my congratulations to you as Speaker of this House. I do so because in this venture of political life, I must be pleasant and useful to the electors of my ponstituency. You, baing one of those, Sir, I therefore have to have added congratulations that you have again been appointed Speaker of the House. Mr.

Speaker, I am blessed with a certain amount of modesty and coming from an area that has been tagged by political parties, by the press, as the solid south of the Conservative Party and in the by-election I provided a wedge that split the solid south, I feel! am justified in speaking to the amendment that the election promises of the past two years have not been fulfilled. I would suggest to you, Sir, that the result of the election in my case proved that.

My opp onent was a veryworthygentlemanand I feel that the electors e lected me as a protest to the actions of the presen( government in office just a very few short months. Primarily the condemnation of the present government in the rural constituency of Turtle Mountain and I believe it prevails throughout other rural constituencies in thatt:�ere were certain promises made in regards to the new educational act. !a gree and have agreed, have spoken on many public platforms in favour of better system of education.

I was taken very severely to task prior to the vote because I did suggest that there would be an increase in pro perty tax. I believe, Sir, that the vote would not have changed one bit had the people been told that there would be, while an equalization of taxes there would be an increase in most of their real prop-erty tax. I have found in the short time that the first budget has been presented that there is a vast variation of increase of educational tax throughout the rural part of Manitoba.

In the municipality immediately surrounding the town of Boiss evain which is a very, very av erage type of municipality, there are 22 school districts in that particular municipa lity and of the 22, six of the school districts had reduction in school taxes; three were the same and the balance had an increase, and the total amount of money that was for-- (interjection)--Pardon me? The balance of the school district, Sir. The total amount of taxes that were contributed by the rural municipality of Horton was an increase of 22% over 1958 in 1959.

I maintain, Sir, that the provisions that were made under the new act would take the place, in my thinking, that we had a multi-million dollar home without a foundation underneath it because there are· so many various reasons that the rural people can find fault with. I'm not talking, Mr. Speaker, in regards to any fault in the actual ed ucation given to the boys and girls--l'm talking about the mechanics of the scheme.

For instance, for those of you--and I presume most of the members · in the House are acquainted with rural Manitoba in blizzards and winter conditions-- that we, out in the rural parts see buses that have to travel 25-30 miles to bring these pupils into a central school. They leave early in the mornin� and as has happ-ened on many occasions, a blizzard comes up.

There's absolutely no provision made in the act that I can find where there will be a system set up by the division board to look after the accommodation of those children by feed ing them or sheltering them in a village or town during the course of that storm. To me that _is a very serious situation. There is no provision made in the grants that a school board--di vision board-can set up a community kitchen, restaurant, so that these children can have hot 'm eals during the noon hour. In most communities throughout the rural part of Manitoba, they are very proud of their boys and girls.

They are very proud not only of the scholastic ability Page 116. January 28th, 1960.

(Mr. Dow, cont'd. ) .. but they are very proud of their athletic ability. They--the parents or ganized these children through the various degrees of athletic events depending on the season and are very proud that they are a good baseball team, a good hockey team, a good curling rink--a team, but when they have to go such far distances to attain an education, they have lost their recreational facilities because I find no provision in my constituency that has been set up. As a matter of fact, it has been discouraged that recreation be part of the education.

Financial ly, I take exception and so do municipalities, on the fact that monies has to be pai.d by a muni cipality to a division board and then in return it comes back to the various elementary boards for distribution of materials , salaries, and so forth and the running of the school. That pre vails, too, Mr. Speaker, in and around Winnipeg. To illustrate the point, I have a letter from a suburban area and I think we all are acquainted with the mechanics of that particular

section that the division board makes an estimate. It is levied in the municipality. They collect the money, send it to the division board and they are supposed to send it back to the particular lo cal school district. In one of these suburban areas, the levy for the division board was $575, 013. That has been paid on account. Only as of January 20th., $239 ,2 87 has been turned back to the local board which neces sitated the local board borrowing a difference between and paying interest. The municipality involved could have paid directly to the board. It added that extra cost.

That prevails in the rural parts as well.and does make an added cost to education. Throughout the by-election, Mr. Speaker, the

definitions came. much to light as to the differ ence between taxes or fees. I ask you, Sir, if there is any difference? It's out of the same pocket. I know the expression was made that you don't have to do certain things, but, if you wish to examine it and go right through the field of provincial government debate as I see it, they don't need to collect any taxes at all. They can revert ever:yi:hing to fees. That was a very debatable point.

Now, Sir, I come to a particular item that I had much criticism offered to me of the present government, which was of the fact that they made great and glowing commitments and accounts that they would have flood and crop insurance in effect when elected. Also, if my memory serves me right, Sir, the criticism was that the then-present government i.n 1957 and '58_ was very slow in acting on flood, for instance.

I was interested this morning to pick up the budget speech of the Honourable, the First Minister, of 1959, and on page 47 at the bottom, there is a figure used that in 1950 expenditures exclude� the flood control and emergency ex penditures of $3,.942, 000. I find out on investigation, Sir, that on that same Winnipeg flood that the Federal Government of Canada contributed something like $21 million for the Province of Manitoba. I take the two figures and I get a figure something like $25 million of damage that the government was responsible for.

It may be a coincidence, Sir, but issued by the De partment of Agriculture through the Deputy Minister at the time when the snow and water da mage was at its height, an estimated loss to the farmers of Manitoba was given by Mr. Bell of $25 million total loss . Now, Sir, the discussion comes up that from press reports the Hon ourable the Minister of Agriculture mentions that he expects to have 6, 000 applications.

He expects 4, 000 will be passed and, if my arithmetic is right, Sir, the maximum amount that can be paid on that would be $2, 400, 000. , of which the Federal Government is going to only pay 50%, when and if their commitment is solid, or the Provincial Government is going to pay $1, 200, 000. on a total loss that's been computed by the Department of Agriculture of $25 mil lion. I say, Sir, is that a fair comparison and gratuity to establish something on for the people of rural Manitoba as farmers ?

Now, Sir, I come to one question that is very close to what I have been associated with for the past 25 years--is municipal taxes. I would like to read, Sir, a clipping of ])ecember, 1959, from the Civic Administration Magazine published for Canada. "The Need for a New Deal on Taxes " is the heading of it. It is clearly shown in a recent re port on local finance, issued by the Canadian Tax Foundation, compiled by itl3_ Municipal Re search Associate, Eric Finness, 1933 the Federal Government got 39% of the take.

The bal ance, 61%, was divided by the provincial and municipal governments on a 1942 basis, in that order with the municipality in top place. And during the war, the balance shifted to the Feder al Government, which was not an unexpected development, Sir. Eighty per cent to Ottawa and . ten per cent to the provinces and municipalities. But, since the war, the Federal Government has kept its top dog position but the cut-back has been to 62%, the balance divided evenly be tween the provinces and municipalities. This time, however, the provinces get 21% of the tax January 28th, 1960. Page 117.

(Mr. Dow, cont•d. ) . . dollar. The municipalities stand at 17. Now this cycle has been com pleted with munic ipalities euchred from first to third [:.lace and it•s. little wonder that the organizers of federal-provincial finance conferences are determined not to let mun icipalities do the invitation list. We have heard on many occasions of the welfare cost th at's going to be tak en away from municipalit ies. In a number of mu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2cd5a75f4f39ede25bfae71100d8ff00b116e809

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