Manitoba Hansard — 14 March 1980 (Sitting 17A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-17a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Fr iday, 14 March, 1980 Time: 10:00 a.m. OPENI NG PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birt le-Russell): Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions • PRES ENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin, that report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports • • • Notices of tt>tion • • • In troduction of Bills • • • INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS At this time, I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery, where we have 34 students of Grade 4 standing from the Woodlands School. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Govern ment Services. We also have 30 students of Grade 5 standing from Var ennes School under the direction of Mrs. Yanchyshyn. This school is in the constituency of the Hon ourable Member for St. Vital.

On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDE R: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Firs t Minister. In view of the speech and statements made last night by the Lieutenant -Governor at the Manitoba Asso ciation of School Trustees Convention opening, is it the intention of the First Minister to have a discussion with the Lieutenant -Governor? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Minister. fDN. STERLING R. LYON, Premier (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the item that the honourable member has raised, I have had only indirect reports of the remarks at tributed to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. I will, of course, take a look at the transcript, if a transcript is available. I can tell my honourable friend that His Honour was making remarks that were of his own orig ination. He was not speaking on the advice of his Ministers , Mr. Speaker. I'll be happy to take a look at the transcript of those remarks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROED ER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Education.

Would he agree with the editorial in the Winnipeg Free Press of this morning, which states that the trustees of the Winnipeg School Division were elected • • • - 939 -

Friday, 14 March, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. It is not par liamentary to ask whether a Minister agr ees or disagrees with a statement in a newspaper. Would the member care to rephrase his question? MR. SCHROEDE R: I tha nk the Member for St. Boniface for his assistance.

Would the Minister agr ee that the trustees of the Winnipeg School Division were elected to represent the interests of the people of Winnipeg and school management and not to do the Lyon government's dirty work for it, but that that is what they find themselves doing as they decree larger classes, a lower level of educational service and sharply higher school taxes in response to the government's refusal to provide suitable grants. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact, Mr.

Spea ker, that cattle rustling is a continuing problem for producers and that only one charge has been laid last year, could the Minister advise what he plans to do to provide more adequate protection for producers? I thought perhaps the Minister did not want to answer. My question was directed to the Attorney-General who is in charge of law enforcement in this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated to the member last night, the police force, the RCMP, specifically are making a special effort in this regard and as the Minister of Government Sevices indicated while the Member for Ste. Rose was out of the committee last night, I understand that the Minister of Ag riculture through the Cattle Pr oducers' Association are taking some initiatives in the area of brand inspections which will help the situation considerably. MR. ADAM: Yes, a further supplementary. In view of the fact that, Mr.

Speaker, producers are having difficulty to have investigations made in regard to livestock rustling, what does the Minister, the Attorn ey-General, intend to do in this regard? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the assumption made by the Member for Ste. Rose. I don't believe that there is any difficulty in having in vestigations made. The difficulty is in obtaining the evidence necessary in order to process charges. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose with a final supplement- ary. MR. ADAM: Yes , Mr.

Speaker, in view of the judgment in the civil act ion, Civil Action 17179, involving a one Larry William Clifford, a person who was ap pointed to the Cattlemen's Association by the Minister of Agri culture, will he now launch an investigation as a result of the judgment in that civil action? MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, the Honourable Minister of Ag riculture on a point of order. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Yes, the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The individual, who is referr ed to by the Member for St. Rose, was elected by the pro ducers of that district to that producers' association directorship. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture did not have a point of order. The Honourable Attorn ey-General. - 940 -

Friday, 14 March, 1980 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would have thought tha t the Member for Ste. Rose would have acknowledged that he only brought this matter to the attention of my department approximately one week ago; tha t he spoke to my Deputy Minister with regard to this matter; and that there is a review of this matter under way. So his suggestions, Mr. Speaker, are quite premature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for In kst er. MR. SID NE Y GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Hon ourable, the Minister of Tourism.

I wonder if the Minister of Tourism can assure the people of Manitoba that the Lord Selkirk, which travels from Selkirk, Manitoba to Hecla Island and various stops on Lake Winnipeg and which has been a feature of tourism in Manitoba for many years, will again be on the lakes this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. J. FR ANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice on the basis that the member has asked me to assure him that it will be on the lakes this year. I would like to look into that further but I have had absolutely no indication that it won't.

I have been informed that the company that operates the Lord Selkirk at the present time has bookings that total in the amount of about $360 ,O OO as of the end of January, for this season. On that basis I have every belief that it will be operating. If the member has new information I'd be pleased to hear it and look into it. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that gross bookings do not - and the Minister should know that - make a black balance sheet or a black operating statement, would the Minister determine whether this facility is one which is economically viable in the private sector and therefore will be able to continue to serve as a tourist attract ion in Manitoba without public assistance next year? MR.

JOHNSTON: There has been no request for public assistance from the people operating the Lord Selkirk, other than that they be included in the adver tising of the Department of Tourism as a tourist attraction, which many people are included in. As far as it being a viable operation, I would say tha t if the bookings con tinue to come in before the season starts, to increase what they already have, it would be a viable operation. But I haven't been examining the books of the Lord Selkirk, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for In kster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm astonished to hear the Minister say that bookings ensure viability. But I will ask another question. Would the Minister assure the people of the province of Manitoba that no greater public assistance will be given to t;1e private operators of the Lord Selkirk than was expended by the public :i.tself when that boat was on the lake as a tourist attrac tion for the people of Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the member is asking me to answer a question th at's almost impossible to answer.

We have not been asked for any private assis tance from the people operating the Lord Selkirk, other than to be included in their advertising. If they came forward because they were having business pro blems, our department would assist them in advice, the same as we would any other business in the province. But as far as assurance is concerned, that it will be operating in the future, I have every indication that it will be operating. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for Elmwood. - 94 1 -

Friday , 14 March, 1980 MR . RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education and ask him whether the provincial government has made any improvements in the pupil/teacher ratio, since it took power, for grant purposes? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): That particular ratio has not been changed, Mr. Speaker. MR . OOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the supplementary question based on the impression that the Minister tried to create yesterday that there were improve ments in the quality of education due to provincial programs, and I ask him whether it is not true that any improvement in the pupil/teacher ratio in the Winnipeg School Division has been at the expense of Winnipeg taxpayers, not be cause of the programs or the funding of the • • • MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that the question is argumenta tive, it attends towards debate.

Does the Honourable Member for Elmwood care to rephrase his question? MR . OOERN: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister whether it is true that any improvement in the pupil/teacher ratio in the Winnipeg School Division has been at the expense of the Winnipeg taxpa yer. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I'd repeat that we have not changed that part icular for mula as it applies to teachers within grant and teachers above grant.

I would suggest to the Member for El mwood that with declining enrolments if a school division chooses not to reduce the number of teachers in line with those declining enrolments that, yes, the teacher/pupil ratio will certainly be decreased. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. OOERN: Can I ask the Minister whether he would clarify this point?

Yesterday , when he quoted figures by which he attempted to show an improvement in the pupil/teacher ratio in the Winnipeg School Division, that he was not quoting author ized provincial Department of Education figures for author ized teachers, he was quoting employed teachers, which are primarily the responsibility of the Winnipeg School Division and taxpayer - a misleading statement, I might add. MR . SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Does the honourable member care to rephrase his question? MR. OOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the Minister whether he was not in fact quoting authorized teachers vis-a-vis number of students, rather than the • I'm sorry, that he was quoting employed teachers, not those authori zed by his de partment. Therefore, no credit accrues to his government. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, it's quite cor rect that I was quoting teachers employed but I would suggest, following the line of argument or debate that the Member for Elmwood is using, that if the School Board is able in a certain year to keep their staffing level at a certain point that will result in a lower teacher/pupil ratio, that that does say something about the particular situation at that time. And I pointed out to him that in 1976 that pupil/teacher ratio was 16. 3; in 1979 it was 14. 4.

And I merely reiterate those figures to emphasize to the honourable member that we did not see a deterioration in those years; in fact , the very reverse, if we follow his argument that more teach ers mean better quality. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBR YD E: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Education. I woncter if the Minister of Education could confirm tha t the Kelsey School Division at The Pas will be project ing a lay-off of five teach ers and whether he - 942 -

Fr iday, 14 March, 1980 could indicate whether this is due to declining enrolment or insufficient prov incial funding. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I would be quite prepared to go into that matter in Estimates. Most of the divisions in this province are experiencing a decline in enrolments and, as a result, we are seeing some reduction in the numbers on their teaching staffs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a supplementary. MR. McBRY DE: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister of Education again.

I wonder if the Minister could confirm that the Mystery Lake School Division at Thompson is projecting sixteen less jobs in the upcoming school year and I wonder again, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister could answer the question whether this is due to declin ing enrolment or whether this is due to the decline in real dollars available to that school division. MR. COSENS: I imagine a number of fac tors come into play, Mr. Speaker, when school boards make these types of decisions, but I would say to the hon ourable member, the chief reason is declining enrolment. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYD E: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Since the provision of funds to School Divisions has failed in the last few years to meet the rate of inflation and since the rate of inflation is higher in northern Man itoba, I wonder if the Minister could assure the House that any increase in grants will reflect a higher inflation cost in northern Man itoba, and that there won't be any deterioration in the qual ity of education in northern Manitoba. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give the member those assurances at this time.

I would merely remind him that there are additional grants that accrue to northern School Divisions that take into consideration some of the additional costs that are involved in providing education in the north . And of course we are ca rrying on with those particular grants. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIE DGER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Cattle numbers have decreased in Manitoba in the last year by appro ximately four percent,

whereas in other provinces seemingly the numbers have in creased. Could the Minister indicate the reason for the decrease in Manitoba ea ttle numbers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ag riculture. MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Speal!;er, according to Stats Canada, those figures are correct. I am concerned aboui; it and I would say the chief reason, Mr. Speaker, is that the cattle producers of this province over the last eight years spent the majority of their time fighting state farm programs that were imposed upon them by the socialist government and were not home producing cattle as they should have been. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed to the Minister of Community Services. I understand that the Minister has confirmed that guest homes in the province will be licensed and my question is this: Can the Minister tell the House if this inspection assessment and licensing is going to be restricted to those guest homes which look after the clients of the province and to the old and the ill? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. - 943 -

Friday, 14 March, 19 80 HON. GEORGE MI NAKER: Mr. Speaker, with regards to the question raised, the licensing of the guest homes will be handled under the regulations that will be developed and it will be open. The regulations are not finalized at this time but would give cons id era tion to licensing those homes that were providing care, not just board and room, but would be providing some form of care to citizens of Manitoba. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister advise the House if it is true tha t his Deputy Minister has issued a directive within his department indica ting that all guest homes in the province are to be assessed and levied a license fee, including those boarding and rooming houses which look after working people and students? MR. MIN AKER: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, and it would be improper for anybody to issue a letter prior to the regulations being adopted and approved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Hon ourable Minister of Education. I would like to ask the Minister if he can assure the House that the government's White Paper on Tax Credits will be made available to members before we reach the Minister's Estimates? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give the member that assurance. I would refer him to the Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. WALD ING: Mr.

Speaker, perh aps then I could address my question to the Acting Minister of Finance, in the absence of the Minister of Finance, and ask him that since property taxation is an integral part of the financing of the whole of education, can the Acting Minister give us an assurance that the members of the Committee will be in a position to review the financing of education in the light of perhaps proposed changes in financing through this White Paper. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Finance, I can tell my honourable friend that the statement that was made in the Throne Speech to the effect that it was the hope of the government to get the White Paper down this session still obtains; it will be coming down sometime this session. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of the Environment.

Public reports report that approximately 3, 000 gallons of vinyl eh loride spilled as a result of the train derailment outside MacGregor, and can the Minister further indicate what threshold limit values his department is using in deliberations as to the seriousness of this environmental accident? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs. HON. WARNER H. JORGENS ON (Mo rris): As was indicated last night on the news, there was something like 3,0 00 gallons of vinyl chloride that had been spilled.

The intention is to spread tha t spill over a fairly substantial area so that it can be readily dissipated into the atmosphere. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Minister, the second part was if he could indicate to the House what threshold limit values his department is using in regard to the effect of this vinyl chloride exposure. I see the Minister requires a bit more information on that. The Environmental Pr otection Ag ency or the Environment Canada recommends an exposure level of 550 - 944 -

Fr iday, 14 March, 1980 parts per million and the Occupational Health and Safety administration recommends an exposure level of 5 parts per million. In light of the discrepancies between these two levels, can the Minister indicate what threshold limit values his de partment is using in regard to protecting the people in the area and also in regard to protecting the workers, who must be involved in spreading this carci nogen out further into our environment and increasing the contamination risk for local residents. MR. JORGENSO N: Mr. Speaker, there is no danger to the residents in the local area.

As I have indicated, and I think has been indicated on several occas ions, the effect s of vinyl chloride are readily dissipated into the atmosphere , as they are exposed to the atmosphere. The real danger comes from confined and pro longed exposure over a period of time. That kind of exposure will not present itself in this particular instance. MR. SPEAKER: mentary. The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supple- MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Wh at I am asking the Minister is, how does his department know that there are no ill effects resulting from exposure of workers working on the train derailment, of residents in the area that have been exposed to vinyl chloride contamination, of whatever levels? What threshold limit values is the Minister using to ensure that people are not being harmed by this exposure? He must know how much they're being exposed to and then he must set a limit as to what tha t exposure will do. So I would ask the Minister if he can indicate what limit has been set and what limits are currently present in the area. MR.

JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, the thres hold of exposure is 5, 000 parts per million. The maximum that has been recorded in the equipment that has been put in place, and is still in place, is 5 parts per million. It is somewhat below the danger level. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask the Minister, then, where he has arrived at a figure of 5,0 00 parts per million, a figure that I have not run across in any of the literature for this highly toxic carcinogen, and what references he uses to substantiate tha t 5,0 00 parts per million is indeed a safe level, when the Environment and Protection Agency of Canada recommends a level of one-tenth of that , 550 parts per million, and when the Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommends a level of one one-hundredth of that, 5 parts per million, and when certain experts in the area of carcinogenic exposure recommend that there should be no exposure at all to any carcinogen.

Where is the Minister arriving at a figure of 5,0 00 parts per million? MR. JORGENSO N: That is the danger level at prolong confined exposure. All I can say is that the level of 5 parts per million is far below any danger level expressed either in his terms or ln terms of other people who have expressed opin ions on this subject. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for' Radi!:!son. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, I would direct a question to the Minister of Natural Resources, and I would precede my question with the remark that I am not a hunter, but I do respect the rights of hunters.

Would the Minister advise the House whether he has any legislation which will cover and protect the people in hunting areas, to protect their properties from hunt ers who shoot from the high ways into private property? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. EDN. BRI AN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, it is, at this time, illegal to discharge a , you might call it "high-powered", rifle from a provincial trunk highway or provincial road. The problem which the honourable member refers - 945 -

Friday, 14 March, 1980 to has been brought to my attention by many groups and individuals in the province and is under consideration as we review The Wildlife Act . MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAM UEL USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister in charge of MHRC as to whether he can inform the House as to whether the province has sold certain properties in the East Selkirk area, properties that were owned by MHRC and, if they were sold, was the actual costs to the province realized from the sale? MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR.

JOHNSTON: I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. US KIW: While the Minister is taking the matter under advisement, I wonder if he would also determine whether or not there was a reserve bid set and whether or not that reserve bid was at least equal to the cost of the property to the Crown. MR. JOHNSTON: I'll take that as notice also, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWAR D PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister responsible for the Environment, I would like to direct my question to I believe it's the Minister of Labour, the Acting Minister responsible for the Environment. Can he advise as to where the Minister of the Environment received the figures, which he used only a few moments ago, of 5 parts per million, from what source? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacM ASTER (Thompson): Well, it's rather a strange sort of a ques tion. I can understand the confusion opposite.

I suggest that the Leader of the Opposition save his question till the appropriate Minister comes back. There's no problem there, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I hope the approp riate Minister returns; we only have a few moments till the conclusion of the question period, to pursue this matter. I wonder if the Attor ney-General could assure the House that the position of Registrar of Bankruptcy, which I believe is being vacated - Gray Richardson vacating that position - whether it will be open to competition; can he assure this House that that position will be open to competition? MR.

SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Attorn ey-General. MR. MERCI ER: Mr. Speaker, there is in fact a competition under way for a second person in that position to assist Mr. Richardson and ultimately take over that position in a few years, when Mr. Richardson retires. MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture and I would ask him, in view of the fact that livestock producers are receiving very little protection at the present time from the Attorn ey-General's depart ment, would the Minister consider posting a $5 ,0 00 reward for information leading to a conviction for livestock rustling? MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister for Ag riculture. - 94 6 -

Friday, 14 March , 1980 MR. DOWNEY : Mr. Speaker , we wi ll give cons iderati on to that and , no t only that , we are do ing a fairly extens ive rev iew of the method in which we could im plement brand inspe ct ion , in discus si on wi th the cattle producer s of th is prov ince , not in con fron tati on as they have been handled in the past eight years under the NDP. MR . ADAM: Yes , Mr. Speaker , a supplem ent ary .

In view of the fact that several mini st ers on that si de have said that the Manitoba Catt lemen 's Assoc iati on would probably solve the rus tli ng problems in th is prov ince , can the Mini st er assure us that with people who are now si tti ng on the board who have been involved in the dispute of own ersh ip of cat tle , can he expect that that can be achieved by that Assoc iati on ? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Inkst er . MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker , I'd like to direct a que sti on to the Honoura ble , the Min ist er of Healt h .

Has the Min ister of Health been able to look further into the que sti on of the release of patient informati on in the medi cal facili ties at Notre Dame de Lourdes , where we understand the one doctor 's mater ial was looked at by peo ple whom he did not bel ieve were authori zed to loo k at it ? MR. SPEAKE R : The Honourable Min ister of Health . OON. L. R. (Bu

d) SH ERMAN (F ort Garry ): Mr. Speaker , when the honourable members asks me have I been able to look further into it , the only reassu rance I can give him is that I am conti nu ing to loo k into it . I have no conclus ive re sults from thos e enqui ri es as yet but I have been in discu ssi on , through my office , wi th the College of Phys ic ians and Surgeons and wi th the Health Services Commiss ion and we 're in touch wi th the board of the hospi tal in ques ti on . I can res pond more fully to the honourable member 's que sti on perhaps early in the week . MR. GREEN : Yes , Mr. Speaker .

I'd like to know whether there is any pol icy that the Min ister is aware of or any guidel ines which we can be advised of as to whom information belongs , that is in a hospi tal but is being dealt wi th by a docto r in a doctor /patien t relati onshi p . MR. SHERMAN : Mr. Speaker , as a general princip le, the records of pati en ts , who are the pr ivate · patients of docto rs , are confi den ti al and that is confi denti al information between the patient and his or her doctor . Nobody else has access to that information unless there is concurrence on the part of the patient and the doctor .

In the case of doctors who are on salary , there is a difficult ques tion that arises. My own pos it ion is that once agai n that informati on should be ent irely con fidenti al , should not be available to anybody else wi thout the expressed per miss ion of the medi cal dire cto r and the patient , hi mself or herself . I cannot assure my honourable friend that that is a prevail ing et hi c in the field . Once again , I would assure him that I perhaps can respon d more fully to that qu es ti on early next week . MR. SPEAKE R : The Hono ur able Member for Church ill . MR. COWAN : Yes , thank you , Mr. Speaker .

In the absence of bo th the Min ister of the Env ironme nt and the Min ister of Labour , can the Acti ng Min ister of ei ther department indicate what threshold limi t value is be ing used for expos ure to vinyl chlor ide for workers in Man itoba 's workpl aces ? What is the consi st ent threshold li mit value that has been se t by that government in regard to that ex posure to that hazardous carcinog en? MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able First Min iste r. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , we can take that ques ti on as noti ce on behalf of the appropr iate Mini ste r. - 94 7 -

Friday , 14 March , 19 80 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Member for St . Johns . MR . SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to ask the Honourable the First Ministe r whether the government has commissio ned any public op inion polls on any issu es , as app arently has been done in Ontar io . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Min is ter . MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker , certainly not that I am aware of but I' 11 be happy to take the ques tion as not ic e and see if any of the agencies of government from ti me to ti me may do that without our knowledge . But certainly not insof ar as the government is aware. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , no w that the Mini ster for Co nsume r Affairs has re turned , I' m wondering whe ther he can answer the ques tion that was asked by the Fir st Mini st er , and I th ink by the Member for Churchill , relat ing to the basis of the figures he gave on the env ironmental impact. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mini st er of Con sumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. JORGENSON : The people in the Environmen tal Department are the people who • Our own people, as well as the federal environ ment al st andards .

I am no t able to quote the same figures that my honourable friend has because I haven 't been given that informati on . I was simply informed by our own people that the levels that were being monito red at that site were far belo w any thing that would be considered dangerous and the reading that I have been given said it was below 5 parts per million . MR. SPEAK ER: The H onour able Member for Churchill . MR. COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Speaker , when we en te r into this field of threshold limit values , we sometimes have con tradictory figures from di fferent ex perts .

I'd ask the Min iste r if he is will ing to make public the results of all figures of vi nyl chloride in air readings that have been taken in the vicinity of the MacGregor derailment over the past number of days and throu ghout the entire process of removing that environ ment al contami nant from the area . MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Ministe r of Consumer and Co rporate Affairs . MR. JORGENSON : Mr. Speaker , in answer to my honourable friend's question , I posed that ques tion last ni ght to our own people and I was in formed that at no ti me - at no ti me - did the readings exceed 5 parts per million . MR.

COWAN : Well, Mr.

Speaker , as there seems to be some confusion on this and as my information says that 550 parts per million for a short-term exposure - that 's le ss than 5 minu tes - is a threshold li mit value used by Environment Canada , is the Mini st er prepared , and in light of the fact that the Canadian Tran sp ort Commi ssion has indicated that there shall be or there may no t be any public enquiry or special enquiry into this derail ment , is the Mini st er now prepared to clear the air by call ing for a public enqu iry , into the derailment at MacGrego r , so that the cit ize ns who are concerned as to the effects of this may have an op portun ity to make their concerns kn own to the Mini ste r and also very impor tant , most importan t, given the answers of the Mini st er tod ay, so that we can have ex pert tes timony as to the effects of this carcinoge n and so that we may kno w once and for all what sort of environme nt al accident we 'r e dealing wit h at MacGregor?

MR. JORGENSON : That in formation has already been commun icated to my hon ourable friend but whether or not he chooses to believe it is up to him. Bu t, inso far as the enqu iry is conce rned , as a matte r of course there are enqu iries into all railway accidents , conducted by th e Railway Transport Board , and there will be on e in this case . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Member for St . Jo hns . - 94 8 -

Friday, 14 March , 1980 MR. CHER N IA CK: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I'd 1 ike to ask the Min ister of Consumer Affairs whe ther he is able , yet , now to report to us in relati on to his inves ti gation of the serious breaches , whet her or not they were seri ous , relati ng to the finance company lo an contracts and his investi gat ion as to the re fusal by his bureau director to co-operate wi th the newspaper if they pressed for publi ca ti on . MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs. MR.

JORGENSON : There was no lack of co-operati on on the part of the of ficial of the Consume rs' Bureau. What he was do ing was simply, as a public educ ati on program , illus trating the ty pes of work that the Consume rs ' Bureau are involved in . He was us ing examples of what could occur and indeed , in one in stance , had oc curred , on the part of one branch of a finance company . The Act forbids the disclosure of com pan ies . He was simply follo wi ng the prov is ions of the Act . I might remind my honourable friends that that prov i sion was placed there in 197 1. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr.

Speaker , si nce I agree wi th the prov is ion in the Act and would not want it to be changed , I would ne vert heless like to kno w from the Honourab le , th e Min ist er , whether he bel ieves that if there is , as reported in the ne ws paper quoti ng him, that when there are more se ri ous breaches the company should not be identif ied as long as they make res ituti on . Is the Min ister pre pared to accept res ti tu ti on alone even in na grant cases or is he prepared to com mence prosec u tions so that whoever is involved in it is revealed in the cour ts ? MR.

SPEAK ER : The Honourable Min iste r of Consumer and Corpo rate Affari s . MR. JORGENS ON : Mr. Speaker , the Department of Cons umer and Corporate Affairs does no t inst itute prose cuti on . The evidence and the informati on is turned over to the Department of the Attorney-General and they make the decis ion as to whether there wi ll be prose cuti on or not . What our de partment does is at te mpt to effect a settl ement which is prov ided for in the Act , wh ich means a reducti on of the interes t rate from whatever it was to five percent .

That , I feel , is sufficient deterrent for any company to break the prov is ions of the Act and tha t has happened on a number of occas ions and , wherever it happens and if that redounds to the benef it of the consum er , then I don 't kn ow where the concern is , and in many cases it has . The consumer has found that because of some mino r infracti on of the prov is ions he is presented wi th a cheque; that is a very pleasant th ing for somebody to have when he th inks he 's paying interes t rates of 24 percent to find ou t that he's only had to pay 5 percen t. He isn 't go ing to be disappo inted .

But I repeat the dete rminat ion as to whe ther or not prose cuti on wi ll be in itiated is up to the Attorney-General 's Depart ment . We simply prov ide them wi th the informati on and they make that de cisi on . MR. SPEAK ER: expi red . Order , order please, the time for Ques tion Period having INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKE R : At this ti me I would like to draw the honourable members ' at ten tion to the gallery where we have 40 students of Grade XI Standi ng from the Miles l>BcDonnell School under the direct ion of Miss Lindsay . On behalf of all the members we wel come you here th is morni ng .

The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. PETER FOX : !>By I kindly indicate to the House that Miles I>BcDonnell comes from the consti tuency of Kildonan , which you omitted to say . MR. SPEAKER : I apologize to the Honour able Member for Kildonan for that omi ss ion . - 949 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEAKER : The Honour able Government House Leader . MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speaker , I move , seconded by the Minister of Health , that, Mr. Speaker , do now leave the Chair and the House resolve it self int o a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower , and the Honou rable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transpor tati on.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (V irden ): Committee come to order. The Honourable Minister . HON. DON ORCHARD (P embina ): Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Members of the com mittee , I am extremely pleased ••• MR . CHAIRM AN: On a point of order , the Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM : Yes, I think it 's custo mary for the Minister to dist ribute copies of his statements to the Opposition so that we can follo w through ••• MR . CHAIRMAN : The Ministe r of Ag riculture . MR . DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman , on that point of order .

He says it is cus to mary ; it may be custo mary but not essential that it be done . It has been done but it is not a rule that we have to follow . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for St e. Rose . MR . ADAM : Yes, on the same point . Mr. Chairman , I think it is essential that we do have copies so that we could go through it ourselves as the Minister reads and goes by . If we can read it as he is reading , it registers must better and I sugge st that it will only take a few minutes to have copies made. We can wait perhaps a minute or two and have copies . I thin k that it is essential that we do have them . MR .

CHAIRM AN: The Member for Lac du Bon net . MR . USKIW: Mr . Chairman , I was just going to raise the ot her question and that is, is the Minister intendin g to table copies of the Highways program at the time of his opening remarks , because that is the usual procedure . We seem to be proceedin g with the Minister 's remarks without having the program before us . I just raise that as a point . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister . MR . ORCHA RD: Thank you , Mr . Chairman. I would prefer to give a few opening remarks and then I have the road program available for distrib ution this morning . MR .

CHAIRMAN : Does that satisf y the Member for St e. Ros e? MR . ADAM : Well, as far as the program is concerned , we can wait a few minutes for that . But we 'r e dealing with the opening remarks and I' m wondering if the Minister could accommodate the Oppositio n and give us copies of this so that we can follow it through . - 950 -

Fr iday, 14 March , 1980 MR . CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Agr iculture on the same poi nt of order. MR . DOWNEY : Mr. Chairman, on that po int of order , maybe the Minister wou ld be prepared at some ti me later on to prepare copi es of the sta tement , at the con ven ience of the Member for ••• MR . ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman, on that point of order , the open i ng remarks , as I me nti oned will be fairly brief and conc ise . They will appear in Hansard for you on Monday morn ing for your perusal and I th ink that that should suffice to allay all your conce rns. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for St e.

Rose on the same po int of order . MR . ADAM : Yes, Mr . Chairman. I'm try ing to be as accommodat ing as I pos si bly can . Would it be poss ible to have cop ies made wh ile the Mini ster is del iver ing his comments so that when we wish to reply to his open ing statement , we can have those copi es before us so that we can go through them? I do n't thi nk that that 's an unreasonable request to • MR . CHAIRM AN: For what guidance a Chair can give you , in all the years I don 't recall a Mini ster forwarding his paragraph by paragraph open ing state ment .

He certai nly did follow with his program , but to my knowledge and if that 's any guidance to thi s committee this morn ing I never recall it being done before. The Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM : Mr . Chairman, I would stand to be corrected but I bel ieve that we had cop ies presented to us last year by the former Minister of Highways and I bel ieve he 's here , Mr. Chairman. MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman , if I might say that I'm extremely pleased to table the Esti mates of the Department of Highways and Transportati on for the fiscal year 1980- 81. Mr.

Chairman , as members of thi s commi ttee are well aware , the Department of Highways and Tra nsportati on has under its juri sd icti on a number of boards - the Motor Veh icles Branch and the Highways Department as it relates to the construc ti on, maintenance and ongo ing road programs on provinc ial roads and PTHs . Mr.

Chairman , in regard to the operati ons of my boards , my officials advise me that the Estimates of the proposed spend ing for the Motor Transport Board , the Highway Traffic Board , and the Taxicab Board are cons istent with those of previous years and do not prov ide for any substant ial change in the i r role or functi on. I would like to briefly ind icate the nature of the ongo ing work of these boards and elaborate on some areas of act ivity that may be of inte rest to the honourab le members. For the Motor Transport Board , Mr.

Chairman , dur ing the past licens ing year , 99 hearings on 283 applicati ons for licens ing authori ty were held , of which 110 ap pl ications were heard as a federal government carr ier board , two of which were joint hearings involv ing the partici pati on of ot her provinc ial transport boards . And cons istent with the growi ng importance of road tr anspo rta tion and the movement of people and goods from po int to po int in Manitoba and in Canada, as a whole , explai ned in large by truck i ngs greater flex ibi lity , shorter deli very ti me and overall efficiency of operati on.

The workload of the Transport Board cont inues to grow. Not only are applicati ons as numerous as ever , but also the hearings are longer and more demand ing , reflect ing the importance that the road transportati on industry attaches to the work of the board . I am advised that the Transport Board is cons ideri ng new forms and procedures to exped iate its work and that modified hearing procedures will also be under cons iderati on by the Canadian Conference on Motor Transport Admini strators in which organizat ion our board plays an important and act ive role .

In the past couple of years the work of that commit tee has contributed sig ni ficantly to a greater major of un iformity in the regulat ion of over the road transport ation in Canada. Th is has been in concurrence with my Minister 's efforts at federal-provi nc ial conferences to de- red tape as many of the industri es as we - 95 1 -

Fri day, 14 March , 1980 can• As a resul t, un iform bills of lading have been approved for general freight and used household goods ; carriage and work ing groups of the Motor Carrier Com mittee are acti vely involved in cons iderati on of the regu lati on of the tran sporta ti on of dangerous commoditi es and the devel opment of a worki ng model for a motor carri er licens ing reci proci ty based on a prorati ng of li cense fees on the basis of mi leage travelled in each juri sdi cti on.

Hear ings of the Traffic Board deal primarily with appl icati ons for access to and the use of land in the control area adjacent to our major highways , as well as the desi gnation of limited access highways , establ ishment , est ablishment of high way speeds and approval of highway si gns and control device s. Hearings are held regularly in Winn ipeg, Dauphin, in Bran don, and on an infrequent basis , in other cent res as requ ired .

The Highway Traffic Board is charged with the respons ibil ity of protec ti ng our tremendous invest ment in the highway system to ensure that highways are used res pons ibly and reasonably and in a manner , Mr. Chairman , that will preserve their integ ri ty and uti l ity for some years to come .

In the past year, my officials advise that the Board co ns idered 655 ap plicati ons for structures in highway control areas and access to highways , con si dered 142 speed zone , 7 pedestri an corr idor appl icati ons duri ng the course of 74 hearin gs , of which 40 were held in Winn ipeg and 34 in other centr es, includ ing Dauphin and Brandon . In regard to the Taxicab Board , Mr. Chairman , my officials advise me that in the past licence year , 10 hearings were held , includ ing one eveni ng hearing which cons idered a taxicab rate appl ication.

While the number of taxicabs has cont inued to be fixed at 400 , the Board has authorized 64 extra taxicabs duri ng the Christ mas and New Year per iod and extended thei r operati ng per iod to the end of February . A very high percentage of the tax i vehicles are radio equi pped , some 99 per cent . Taxi vehi cles are regularly checked for meter accuracy , state of repa i r and cleanl iness , and the Board is concerned to foster a bette r image in the indus try .

While as the who le , the industry may be fairly cons idered to be providi ng excel lent serv ice, the Board advises me that they are sti ll no t sat isfied wi th some areas of concern respecti ng the appearance and deportment of some driver s, the cond iti on of some vehicle s, and the cont inuance of complaints respecti ng se r vice at the airport . The Taxicab Board is address ing itself to these problems and I am confi dent that further in it iat ives may be made by the Taxicab Board to ensure an ever respons ive and high cali bre tax icab servi ce to the ci t izens of Winn ipeg and its gues ts. Mr.

Chairman , in regard to the operati on of the Motor Veh icle Branch over the past year , as members are aware , the Motor Vehicle Branch is resp ons ible for the admini str ati on of a wide range of programs relati ng to vehicle regi stra ti on , licens ing of drivers, the many facets of highway safet y , as well as bicycle and snowmob ile safety programs . 1979 has been an extremely busy year for the branch . The followi ng will gi ve members of this Comm ittee some indicati on of the acti vi ti es of the branch and the programs it admini ster s.

In the area of vehicle registr ati on : Vehicle registr ati ons of all classe s, but excludi ng commerc ial vehicles, increased from 705 , 000 to 712 , 000. This represents nearly a 1 percent increas e, somewhat lower than the long-t erm average of between 3 and 4 percent per year. However , certai n classes of vehicle s, or regi st rati on , incr eased at a greater rate. For example , truck registr ati ons increased by nearly 5 percent last year . Dealer plates increased by nearly 35 percent last year .

Due to the fact that restri cti ons on the use of dealer plates has been greatly reduced , it is anti c ipated that the number of dealer plates will increase even more duri ng the current registr ati on year . A very important area in vehicle regi stra tion , Mr. Chairman , has been the registra tion of commerc ial vehicles in the Provi nce of Man ito ba. Commerc ial vehicles of all classes increased from 16 .9 thousand to 17 . 9 thousa nd , for an in crease of 5.8 percent , cons iderably over and above the 1 percent increase for all other cl asses.

I •m very pleased to report to members of the committee that commerc ial truck regi st rati on as well increased by nearly 8 percent while PSV truck registra ti ons increased by 2.6 percent . This , I th ink , Mr. Chairman , is a fair ind icati on of the increased level of econo mic act ivity in the manufacturi ng sector of this provi nce because commerc ial vehicles have experi enced a multi ple greater increase - 952 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 in registration over the last year than ot her vehicle s, primarily passenge r cars, an excellent sign and indicator for the economic activity in this provin ce. I am very please to report to members that this registration year was the first time that agents were permitted to handle commercial truck registra tions . Based on prel iminary repo rts , it appeared that this improved service has been implemented successfully with very few complaints or problems .

Quite apart from the inconvenience previously caused to persons requiring commercial truck plate s, it is expected that the improved service will result in an increase of commercial truck registr ati on. This, Mr. Chairman, was a change instituted by my Motor Vehicle Branch to allow rural Autopac agenc ies to offer commercial truck regis trati ons, rather than having the requirement of central registration from Winni peg, and it 's been a great boost to all the commercial trucking operations outside of the City of Winnipeg in rural and northern Manitoba and it 's been a tremend ously well received change .

There has been a significant increase in the number of seasonal taxi licences issued . This increase was 27 percent in 1979 over 197 8 and I have referred to that in my comments on the Taxicab Board . Snom obile registrations , Mr. Chairman , were down substanti ally , and this is as a result of this being, 1979 being the first year of a three-year registration period for snom obile s. And as a result in the second year of a three-year licenc ing period your regist rations do drop off dramatically and this reflects the historic pattern of snom obile registrations .

The number of licenced drivers increased fromd 567 ,1 65 to 572, 632 representing an increase of 1 percent . That is a reasonably significant figure , Mr. Chairman . In te rms of acciden ts , Mr. Chairman, preliminary figures for 1979 indicate total accidents increased from 39 , 080 in 1978 to 40,5 51. This represents an increase of 3.8 percent . However , I am pleased to report that the number of per sons killed or injured during 1979 decreased rather significantly over the preced ing year .

In 1978 there were a total of 198 persons killed in the province compared to 182 for 1979, for a reduction of 8 .1 percent . Similar ly , injuries during 1979 declined from 11,8 32 to 11,5 57 , for a reduction of 2.3 percent . I am also very pleased , Mr. Chairman , to report that Manitoba 's fatality rate , based on the common comparison of 100 mill ion kilo metres, was the second lowe st in Canada with two deaths per 100 million vehicle kilom etres . Only the Province of Ontar io , with a death rate of 1.8, had a lower fatality rate. This would seem to indicate , Mr.

Chairman , that the various safety programs administered by the branch are effective in reducing the number of deaths and injuries on our highways in the Province of Manitoba In terms of convictions under The Highway Traffic Act, Mr. Chairman , and according to the Criminal Code of Canada, while the data of 1979 is prelim inary , the number of convictions for all offences under The Highway Traffic Act for 1979 totalled 99 , 654 compared to 99, 102 for 1978 . This represents an increase of slightly less than 1 percent . Convictions under the Criminal Code have decreased very signif icantly .

There are a total of 81372 convictions in 1979 , compared to 10 , 401 in 1978, representing a decrease of 19 .5 percent . More than half of these convicti ons were for driving with blood alcohol le�els in excess of .0 8 percent , representin g 5,2 66 in 19 79, compared to 6,4 90 in 1978, for a decrease, Mr. Chair man, of 18 .9 percent , a very signif icant decrease . Hopefully , this represents a trend which will continue into the future and , no doubt , accounts at least in part for the decrease in the number of fatalities and injuries experienced in 1979 .

The decrease in the number of such convictions could also be att ributed to the increase in penalti es for second offenders impli cated during 1979 , as all members of this committee are aware. Mr. Chairman, under the suspension of drivers ' licen ce , a total of 25 ,744 drivers had their licences suspened in 19 79 , as compared to 23, 907 in 1978, for an increase in suspensions of 7. 7 percent .

The leadin g causes of suspension ranked in order of frequency where convictions under the Criminal Code which result in automatic suspen sion ; two , failure to pay a fine ; and three , suspension of a pro bation lic ence upon conv iction ; and fourth ly , suspension by the Registrar on the basis of a poor driving record , the accumulation of too many demerit points . In the Driver Control Program under the Motor Vehicle Branch , this program is aimed at those drivers who continue to be involved in accidents and /or convictions , despite driver improvement action that has been taken previous ly . - 953 -

Friday, 14 March , 1980 Such drivers are called in for a hearing to show cause whether a li cence should not be suspended . Duri ng 197 9, a total of 4,5 95 hearings were conducted compared to 4, 248 in 1978 , for an increase of sl ightly over 8 perc ent . More than half resulted in suspens ion for var ious per iods of time . In the balance of cases , either addit ional probati on was imposed or no acti on was taken .

In te rms of the Dr iver Improvement Program as offered by my department , this program is aimed at those drivers who accumulate a worse than average driving recor d based on a number of demerits they accumulate. I should po int out that a rela tively new inn ovati on has been the introduc ti on of a new computer system , whereby dr ivers who accumulate four demeri t po i nts but less than si x are sent an advisory letter urg ing them to take stock of their drivi ng habits and drive wi th greate r care in the future .

Also drivers who have erased the i r demeri t po i nts are sent a letter of cong ratula ti ons to po int out that the province is , indeed , cogni zant of th eir improved dr iving record and proud of the fact they 'v e been able to achieve that . The second step in the Driver Improvement Program is to call the driver in for an interv iew dur ing which a dec ision is taken whether any further act ion should be taken , such as a road te st, Mr. Chairman , or requi ri ng the driver to attend a defens ive driving or a performance drivi ng cours e.

Duri ng 1979 , a total of 14 , 646 dri vers were called in for an interview, com pared wi th 13 ,5 11 duri ng 19 78. This represents an increase of 8.4 perce nt . Of those called in for an interview, 852 were requi red to undergo further test , while 1,3 82 were requi red to attend the defens ive or performance dr iving course in an effort by the province to improve their dri ving ski lls . During 1979 a total of 44 ,9 95 road tests were admini stered , compared to 47 ,1 17 duri ng 1978 . A total of 108 , 344 written or oral examinati ons were admini stered duri ng 1979 compared to 110 , 023 in 1978 .

Dealer salesmen and record permits offered by the Motor Vehicle Branch dur ing 19 79, a total of 694 dealer perm its were issued as opposed to 613 in 1978 , representi ng an increase of 13 .2 perc ent . In thi s con ne cti on I should inform mem bers that the bond dealers are requi red to file and ma i ntai n has been increased from $5, OOO to $15 , OOO as of 1979 . The regula ti on was also amended by repeal ing the requi rement that salesmen file a bond .

Experience ind icated that the $1 , 000 bond was of little ass istance to a person who suffered a loss in connec ti on wi th the purchase of a motor vehicle . As a consequen ce , Mr. Chairman , there had been no claims against salesm en 's bon ds . Motor vehicle ins pect ion dur ing 1979 , a total of 30, 647 vehicles of all classes were inspected . Of thes e, 1, 485 were voluntary inspec ti ons and , as we ll, 13 ,073 heavy duty vehicles were inspec ted . While it is always difficult to dete rmi ne the cost effecti veness of a

part icu lar safety program , one parti cular case can ind icate far more vividly than any stati st ic the value of such a program, and we are constantly moni tor ing that. In te rms of snowm obi le acc i dents , Mr . Chairman , the number of snomobile acc i dents decli ned from 179 in 1978 to 83 in 1979 · Howe ver , injury acc idents did decline, as well, from 81 to 51 in 1979 but unfortun ately fatalit ies increased in the snowmo bile accidents from 3 to 9. Snowmo bile tra in ing courses were being offered as in the prev ious year and a total of 696 students were trained last year .

Currently we have a total of 332 instructors who have been cert ified and who conduct these traini ng courses throughout the prov ince. Each of the programs descri bed above , Mr . Chai rman , have contr ibuted to improved safety on our highways and we wou ld , however , be remiss if we did not reco gn ize and express our appreciati on for the efforts of others , such as the pol ice, the courts , the traffic engi neers who ident ify high acc ident locati ons and in itiate correcti ve measures , the Manitoba Safety Counc il , the Mani toba Truck ing Ass oc iati on, as well as, Mr.

Chairman, the Man itoba Medical Ass oc iati on , who over the years has shown a keen interest in a variety of measures to improve safety on our highways , and qui te successfully so, Mr. Chairman. The expendi ture , Mr. Chairman , that is being requested by my Esti mates thi s year total $149 ,1 60,2 00 .00. Mr. Chairman, a major port ion of this figure will fund the road cons tr ucti on program, thereby providi ng our heavy construc ti on indus try and many Man itobans wi th substa nti al work and job opportu ni ti es . A ma j or road program is scheduled for thi s summer .

This program has in the past and will in the future represent an important segment of the governmen t's - 954 -

Fr iday, 14 March , 1980 effort to provide the economi c infrast ructure necessary for the growth and pros per ity of rural Man itoba, and hen ce , all Man ito ba. A number of important factors make th is constructi on program for 19 80-81 fiscal year an important part of thi s governm ent 's public expendi tu re . Firstl y , Mr . Chairman , we have to protect the invest ment of the taxpayers dollars in our pres ent exi st ing roads and structure s. This undertaki ng requ ires cons truc tion fund ing on maintenance and upgrading for the existi ng surface of prov inc ial trunk highways and provinc ial roads.

Without a cont inuous program of yearly maintenance and per iod ic reconstr ucti on , the si zeable inves tment that all Manitobans have in our highway system , which taxpayers of past years have paid for , Mr . Cha irman, without thi s extens ive maintenance and upgrading program on our PTH's we can , in future years, under go costly major reconst ructi on. So the maintenance program is extremely important . Secondly, Mr. Chairman , thi s prov ince has fallen vi cti m in the past ten years to the abandonment of some 670 miles of rail lines throughout rural Man ito ba.

This has had, needless to say , a detr imental impact on the affected rural commun i ti es. These towns and vi llages affected by abandonment are now wi thou t rail serv ice and they have also lost the important func ti on of grain del ivery to their commun ity . Apart from the many soc ial and econo mic impacts , the most immediate result is the impact on the road system espec ially when grain formerly moved by rail must be moved over prov inc ial roads and highways now . Some communi ti es affected by rail abandonment are not se rviced by a surfaced all weather road .

This cons tructi on budget which I' m presenti ng today represents a direct move by this government to address that problem and to help to solve it in the commun iti es affecte d . As a result of rail line abandonmen t, Mr. Chairman , our prov inc ial road system in some areas is under cons iderably increased us e. My department has ident ified these areas and is mov ing to upgrade those prov inc ial roads. It is readily appar ent that thi s move represents a cons iderable investme nt , Mr. Chairman, in the future of Manitoba .

The constructi on budget th is year once agai n will expend over half the doll ars on the provinc ial road system , a road system which by and large has not reconstructed since its incepti on in 19 66 . Th irdly , Mr. Chairman, the projected needs and demands upon our highway system are best descri bed as a moving target . We have many factors affecti ng road pro gramming , not the least of which are costly en ergy cons iderati on s, increas ing land values and the ris ing expectati ons of the citi zens of this great prov ince who are asking for an improved road system .

It is certa in that we are faced wi th prov iding a highway system which will accommodate both extremes of the vehicle spec trum . For example , cars are gett ing smaller and in that regard are much eas ier to accommodate on our highways . However , at the same ti me trucks are getti ng cons iderably larger wi th heavier loads. This requ ires better standards of highway constructi on and strength .

Both of these extrem es , the small cars and the heavier and larger trucks , wi ll become the norms regarding our vehicle makeup for the eighti es and in turn will present rather un ique challenges to our planners and des igner s. Fourth ly, th is government and my department believes that a very important key to a strong viable rural Man itoba is the provis ion of an effic ient highway sys tem. This provi de s rural Manitobans living on our farms ;o,m:l in our to wns and villages wi th rel iable all-weather access to the i r soc ial and eocno mic needs , many of which are a great number of miles distant .

Good all-weather roads take our ci ti zens to hospi tals , to dent ists , to visi t relat ives and friends in our personal care homes, to do thei r personal and bus iness shoppi ng and in gener al, Mr. Chair man, to bring them together to enjoy the soc ial events of the i r areas. These roads take our ch ildren to school , to sport ing and cultural events and bring some of those same children to visi t us here in th is buildi ng .

So as well as being essenti al to the economic develo pment in rural Manitoba , good roads prov ide the very important soc ial li nks that our rural res idents need , enjoy and dese rve . In the transportati on servi ces of the department , we are increas ing fund ing in the key areas of remo te airport s, the ferry system,

part icularly the land ings , commun ity and wi nter roads . This is part of the ongo ing effort by thi s government to prov ide northern Man itobans in remote commun iti es wi th access to improved transportati on facil iti es. Infras tructure is important , Mr . Chairman , to northern Man itobans as it is to those living in the southern part of the province . - 955 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 Mr . Chairman, in

summary my department is continuin g this governm ent 's commit ment to improve the tran sportation system in all Manitoba. These intensive efforts are desig ned to bring to all Ma.nitobans an efficient and cost effective transportation system. Such as system , Mr. Chairman , has been, is , and will contin ue to be a solid cornerstone in this governm ent 's ongoing efforts to improve the economic and social structure of this provin ce; an effort , Mr. Chairman , which will literally pave the way to future prosperity for all Ma.nitoban s, indeed for the province as a whole . MR .

CHAIRM AN: The commit tee , as you are aware , will be returning to the Ministe r 's compensation at the end and now we go on to l. (b) (l) . The Member for Ste . Rose. MR . ADAM : Thank you very much , Mr. Chairman . As I mentioned at the beginnin g of the opening remarks, it would have been preferable for us to have a copy of the opening remarks of the Minister . He indicated that it would be very brief and , as we have since found , it has been quite a len gthy brief and as a res ult it will not be possible for us to respond in a comprehensive way to all the items that he raised in his opening remarks .

It 's just a bit too much to absorb without having a text before us . I hope that an effort will be made to have copies made as soon as possible so that we comment on some of the remarks that he 's made in his opening stat ement . As a preliminary response to the Minister , Mr.

Chairman , I want to say that I belie ve that transportation is going to be one of the major thi ngs affecting the provin ce, the future of Manitob a and the econom y , as wel l, in western Canada, not only the province of Manitoba , but it is going to have a profound effect on the development of western Canada and what is happening in the future . It 's not as simplistic an approach as to say that you can just prepare a road budget for Mani toba and this is what we are going to do and that 's goin g to solve all the problems .

My bel ief is that it 's a much larger question than just the fact of maintain ing roads on a year to year basis and a program from year to year. There are other factors that are going to affect how much money that we are goin g to have to spend on the construction of highways . For instan ce, the effect of providing compensatory rates to the rail lines is goin g to have a very very serious affect on the Minister 's department . He is going to be faced not with millions of dolla rs ; if that comes about , he 's going to have to be providing billi ons of dollars for road construc ti on.

This is what is going to happen. As far back as about 1976 the Saskat chewan government has undertaken studies in this regard and they have found the figures that they were quotin g for the prov ince of Saskatc hewan, the cost to the province for compensatory rates, if that was given to the railw ays , that wou ld escalate the abandonment of branch rail li nes therefore transfering more and more and more of the transportation costs on to the provin ces .

Their figures at that time were $2 .5 billi on and now, with inflation having gone up probably 40 percent since then, you 'r e talking about $4 billi on for the province of Saskatchewan and this doesn 't take into account any other affects such as what would happen to commun iti es, the cost of loss of economic viability to communties and loss of business es , loss of a number of farmers in the province because of these higher costs . It 's going to amount to millions of dollars to producin g farmers, and this is one of the key facto rs.

Now I know that the Minis te r had only probably three days to put his contribution in the Throne Speech , and as a resul t, I believe it wasn 't very , very comprehensively put in , the paragraph to assure that the primary industry remains strong, and wi ll continue to press for improvements in the grain handling system. I believe that we have an impression here that what the Minister is tell ing us, that in order to improve transporta tion, that we should be moving away from rail to roads , and I don' t think that this is exactly what we 'r e talkin g about .

By doin g this we are going to be trans ferring costs to the taxpayers of Manitoba . Further down there is a mention of abandonment of branch li nes and in order to help farmers to compete - I'm not sure what the Minister is referring to , who they are supposed to compete with , one another , or with American farmers - and also to accommodate freight transferred from rail to highway, there is an impression left here that this is a des irable thing that should happen. I don 't belie ve that it is a desirable thing , that we should be moving more transfer from rail to - 956 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 highways , in view of the fact of the energy situ ati on, in view of the fact of the high cost . I believe that as much as possible we should remove the cost of trans portation from the Manitoba taxpayer and leave it at the national level, or through the rai lways . Of course they are highly subsi dized , the railways are very highly subdize d , as are the air transpo rtation , as is passenger transportation on the rails, and as is transport ation provinc ially .

I see that there is approximately 8 percent or 9 perc ent of an increase in the budget , roughly , and with the increased co st I see that this would indicate that we 'r e not going to have that much greater of a road program for this year, if we are to take the inflat ionary costs into consideratio n. I do n't see this as being a very very big program , and as a result of this , we could be running into some di fficulty insof ar as movement of grain and ot her commodities that have to be moved by truck .

I notice that the - I have to chastise the Minister somewhat for his remarks when he spoke on the Speech from the Throne - and particularly I believe that he was very unparliamentary in respond ing to some of my remarks . In fact, I was mentioned quite a number of times in his respon se . One of the comments that he made , "the hypocri te , he doesn 't understand what his own government did to rural Manitoba ." I think the Minister , when he made those commen ts, he was speaking much below the level of a Minster of the Crow n in making that kind of a comment .

I also want to point out to him that the previous admin ist ration was respon sible for building many miles of road in northern Manitoba that had not been done previously , and whi le I know that we 'l l never have enough money to sati sfy all the people of Manitoba and all the people who want roads, at least I think that we did do a very ex cellent job as far as northern Manitoba is concerned .

I also would like to , I know that my col league , the Member for Lac du Bonnet says that we 'r e always politic al, but I think , also I would point out to the Minister that in meeting with delegations - and I know that he has had a number of delegations from my area and I have some of the copies of some of the petitions that he has been presented with , and letters that he has received - the reports that are coming back to me as critic for the Highway Department , that he is using his office more for political purposes than to discuss rationally the concerns of people coming into his office with their concerns in their particular area .

Of cour se , you know everybody is parochial , they want to get roads in their own par ticular areas, but many of these requests that he is receiving and delegations are goi ng to a lot of trouble to prepare briefs to him and of course , it 's his prerog ative to use his office the way he wants, and if he wants to make a political office out of it , that 's his privilege .

But I would only suggest to him that he will not endear himself with thes e delegations who are coming in if he goes on wit h a political ti rade for 10 , 15 minutes or half an hour with them , and blaming all past problems on previous adminis tration . So perhaps with those few comments , if some of my colleagues would like to res pond to some of the comment s, if we can get a copy of the opening comments we wou ld be able to respond in a more comprehensive way. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for St . Bonif ace . MR . LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr . Chairman , I have a question to ask and a point to cover .

It shou ldn't take very long and I would ask leeway and latitude from you, Mr. Chairman , and the members of the committ ee . I understand the way we proceed with the examination of these different Esti mates, and it could be that you could rule that my question could be asked later on, but I think that you can accept that it be asked under Administ rati on, but the reason why I would like to dis cuss it today is I don 't think we 'll reach this today and I'l l be absent after that and I wo n't have a chance to ask the questi on. So Mr.

Chairman , what I would like to know from the Minis ter , there 's a point and I see the officials of the department aren 't there at this time , when you apply for renewal of your licence and that is done on each person 's birthday , around that time , you are asked ce rtain questions in the applicati on, and one of them is, have you had heart problems? And if you answer that you had, automati cally , I would imagine you have to answer the same thing , no matter how long ago that you had this problem, you have to answer yes , in the affirmative . And - 957 -

Friday , 14 March , 198 0 automatically , it would seem , or shortly after you are sent your licence and you are also sent a form that must be filled by your doctor . And that could be re peated and repeated every year for the rest of your lif e. I would ask the Minister, with his staff, to review this. I don't think there is any need for that . First of all, it causes hardship for some of the people, because that medical examination is not covered by Medicare , but that is only one point .

The most important point is that it is a nuisance at the time , it is some thing that is certainly not needed at all tim es , and it is something that some ti mes is difficult to get in time . I would suggest , if you had a heart attack , and I'm going through that because as you know , no t that long ago I had a heart attack and I consider that I'm in better health now than I was before , I thin k I was more of a risk before .

I was made aware of it , the problems , I have tried to lose weight , I was somewhat suc cessf ul but not as much as I would have liked to , and I would hope that the Minis te r could see that fine , the first time , excuse me , I should say that since then I'v e seen my doctor more often than I' ve ever seen him in my life , because he insists that I have these periodic checkups . -- (Interjection )-- Yes, every once in a while , like my friend would say.

I woul d think that the time that your doctor could rule that, fine , for intents and purposes you have no tro ubles, and that you would accept that that examination then would clear you and that would wipe the slate clean and you would go from there , because there is no doubt that as I say that you have to go back and your doctor follows you . Leave it to the doctor , I do n't say leave it to the individ ual.

But if there was a spot there somewhere to say that the doctor as far as he is concerned , you know, he is back to normal , after a year or tw o, but leave it in the hands of your doctor and then you would start again. You woul dn 't autom ati cally for the rest of your life have to have a medical examinati on, because you have one anyway . It might not be at the right time so you have to go back and have another one . It is a nuisance for the doctor who can't see the need , my doctor anyway , and I think it would be less of a burden on the people who have to pay for that thing . MR .

CHERNI ACK : It is not covered by Medicare . MR . DESJAR DINS : No , it is not covered by Medicare . In ot her wor ds, I don't think that is too controve rsial . I thin k that the Minister could see my point and maybe that could be discussed and some kind of an amendment in the polic y . Or there should be room there somewhere to say , fine , you ' re clear , and then ne xt year when your application comes in and says, have you been cleared by your doctor , or somethin g . I am sure they could find a way of doin g it . Thank you , Mr . Chairman. MR . ORCHARD: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . To the Member for St .

Bonif ace , that question was broached in the House several days ago by the Member for Inks ter . That has be en, I guess , a longst andin g requ irement by the Motor Vehicle Branch for anyone who is applying for the privilege of driving in the province of Manitob a . --( Interjection )- - Right , no. The Member for St . Boniface indicates he never experienced it before . That 's right , because he just had his medical problems very recent ly .

That particular regulation applies not only to people who are experiencin g heart problems, it applies to diabetics, epilepti cs, and a number of medical prob lems which may, and I say may because it is always a statistical chance, a statis tical probabilit y , that may result in the driver blacking out or having difficulty that would cause him to potentially lose control of the vehicle and endanger the travellin g publ ic . I certainly appreciate the comment you are making about people who have had a mild heart at tack .

Under the exist ing regulat ions, as I understand them, that person may well be required on an annual basis to have a medical checkup at his expense to certify that he is capable of having his driver 's license renewed and capable of taking on the respons ibil ity of driving a vehicle . That may well be somethin g that we have to atte mpt to modify in some of the methods that you have suggested , in that if your doctor says , okay , you have got a clean bill of health for three years, okay , then in three years from now we renew it at the - 958 -

Fr iday, 14 March , 1980 di scretion. I guess the major problem is that in wri tin g an accept ion to an exist ing provis ion in dr iver licensi ng , you lay the onus on the med ical profess ion to make a judgment , and someti mes maybe they don 't want to make that judgment and cert ify that in fact you , usi ng yourself as the example , are , you know, in good physi cal cond i tion to drive for up to three years without having a requi rement for another medical examinati on at your expens e.

But I do appreciat e the sugge sti on and what you are saying , and I haven' t repl ied to the qu esti on in the House , because we are atte mpt ing to see if there is a ra ti onal , a better workable sol uti on to that. As I have said , that has been somethi ng that apparently has been wi th us si nce the advent of insured services, the aspect of charging the person, or not having that med ical covered by Medicare when it 's specifically related to the privileges of driving . We are tak ing a look at that . MR . DESJARDINS : Well , Mr. Chairman , I thank the Min ister for his remarks .

I did ment ion that it wasn 't covered by Medicare . This is somethi ng else, com pletely different . It doesn 't come under thi s department that could be discussed later on if need be. I am not really that concerned about that . I feel that somebody that wants to, probably those that can't, but probably those that can afford to pay for it , will find a way to call that a regular visit anyw ay, and I thi nk there will be co -operat ion by the doctors in many instan ces , and you don 't pay .

It is some thi ng else , I don't want to burden the Minister with that , because it is not his depart ment or his individual respons ib ility at thi s time . I am just talki ng about the concern that I have; thi s is repeated , and , of course , my suggest ion was that we leave , but it not some thi ng new , it is not a change that we are leaving to the medical profess ion, to the docto r , to cert ify that you can drive . I dare say that I would be qui te interested to know how many the department has where they have a note , that no , he can't pass the exam, he can't drive the car .

I would be sur prised if you had on e. I would be surprised if you had one . You woul dn 't have too many , maybe you will surprise me , but I would be very surpris ed . There is usually co-opera ti on then. But I am suggest ing that , leave it .

I' m not , you know, I say that there are certai n areas, it might be, I' m not a medi cal man, I don 't know if there is cer tain thi ngs like diabetes that you should go all the time , that is possi ble , but certai nly in the case that I am interested in , in a heart case , I am sure that my doctor could give me a bill of health and say, well , you are not any worse than you were before , so we will start again . Now if he can't do that , and he shouldn 't do it , he should say wel l, I can on ly , no , I can 1 t say that you are clear yet , let 's wa i t another year or so.

But once that has been done then you are on the same pos iti on. If you have a heart attack , the first time you'l l have a heart attack , it could happen any ti me ; if the doctor says yes, all right , he gives me an examinati on for th is year , what guarantee do I have that I will go that full year , because I had an examinat ion. I cou ld have a heart at tack and it could be driving my car . So the point is that if I have another one then it is a new ball game.

But I am suggest ing that , for instance in my case, if the doctor could say, well, yes , you are not any worse than you were before , in fact you might be a li ttle better . Fine , the slate would be wi ped , unti l a nd if I have another , if I have more problems , well then I am back on the th ing , I have to go and get a med ical examinati on. But I am saying , leave that to the med ical profession if this is what they are saying . I do n't think you will cause a si ngle more acc ident by do ing that , not at all , they can't, you know, anybody , you can have a heart attack tomorrow or right now.

If my col leagues are too hard on you you might have one yet , so that doesn 't mean that , you know, that you are marked for li fe and espec ially some of these thi ngs . So I am not suggest ing that the Mini ster, I think he did, I was unaware that that questi on was asked , and I am not ask ing him to make a dec ision right away. I am sure he will want to discuss th is wi th medical people , but I w ould urge him to look into the matter because I th ink it is someth ing that is defi ni tely not nee ded , it is not help ing, it is costly to some , and it is a nui sance to all of them.

In my family, it is the same th ing , I was warned that thi s was comi ng , because my wife had a problem years ago , every year she had to go , and you don't know , Mr. Min ister , to you through the Chairman , how close I came to lying - 959 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 on my applicat ion , because I knew this was comin g , and sure enoug h , two or three days after I received that and now I have got to make an appointment to go and see the doctor again. Thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: I hope the committee will appreciate we did go to the back page . Now we 'll be returnin g to l. (b) (l) . The Member for St . Johns . MR . CHER NI ACK : Mr . Chairman , I'd like to know whether negotiations have been completed in relat ion to the share-cost arrangement between MPI C and the Motor Vehicle Branch? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr .

Chairman , w ould that not be better dealt with in the Motor Vehicle Branch Estimates? MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman , the reason I raised it under this item is that my next que stion , or series of questi on s, were going to be related to who has been condu ctin g the neg otiations . I don't know whether , I imagine it should get up to the Deputy Minister level, and probably the Ministerial as well, and that's why I ask it at this point . So , if you don't know whether negotiations have been completed , I'd like to know who has been conducting negotiations ? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr .

Chaiman , it 's my understandin g that my Assistant Deputy Minister for Motor Vehicle Branch , plus representatives of the Department of Finan ce, were undertakin g the negotiations . MR . CHERN IACK : Does that then mean that the management aspect of this department has not been involved in these negotiatons , just the Motor Vehicle Branch its elf ? Is that what the Minister is saying? MR . ORCHA RD: The neg otiations do include management ; the Assistant Deputy Ministe r of the Motor Vehicle Branch is a part of senior management of the Depart ment of Highways and Transpor tat ion. MR . CHERNIACK : Mr.

Chairman , we 're dealin g now with the Administration Branch , or Division of General Administ rati on, which provides executive financ ial and other administrative servi ces . Now, my specific question is whether there has been participation and negotiation at this level that we 'r e dealin g with no w, or whether it's entirely left to the management in the Motor Vehicle Branch itself? MR . ORCHA RD: The negoti ati ons , as the Member for St .

Johns can well ap preciate, the negotiations are undertaken on behalf of the department by the branch most specifically affected by that , which is the Motor Vehicles Branch , and they have been undertaking the day-to-day discussions and the meetings which have occ urred between Finance and MPI C. MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman , we seem to be dealin g with about $2 .5 million out of a $9 milli on porti on, which is the Motor Vehicle Branch .

It is such a large sum of money that I find it difficult to accept the thought that the Deputy Minister and his department , and the Minister 's own staff , are not involved in negotiations dealing with, well, even much more than $2 .5 million, as far as I can read it . It must be a very large portion of the budget , of the Estimates assigned to Motor Vehic les.

So I want to make sure , the Minister , as I understa nd it, is saying that the negotiat ions have been conducted in the Motor Vehicle Branch and the Department of Financ e, and I want to , for the record , dete rmine whether the Deputy Ministe r , and even the Minis ter , or the financial department under the Deputy Minister , have not been involved in those negotiations? MR . ORCHA RD : Mr.

Chairman, as is not unc ommon in all departments , the deci sions are made for policy direction at the Ministerial level, and are under taken by the people in senior management who are most capable and most directly affected by policy changes and changes of a nature that the Member for St . Johns - 960 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 is questio ning . The Motor Vehicle Branch , under the Assistant Deputy Minister , has been undertaking, on behalf of the department , the changes in bill ing between MPIC and the Motor Vehicle Branch . MR. CHERNIACK : Because I didn 't get a direct reply , I want to know whether I'm correct in inferring, from what was said by the Ministe r , that nei ther the Deputy Minister nor his immediate staff, nor the Minister himself , have been involve d in these negotia tio ns . MR . ORCHAR D: Well , if I infer from what the Member for St .

Johns is say in g, he is at tempting to say that only the Motor Vehicle Branch has been involved from Day One . That is not the case. They have been the principle negotiator on behalf of the Department of Highways and Transportation because, Mr.

Chairman, the Motor Vehicle Branch and the MPIC operatin g agreement falls within their prime cons iderati on, and it has been on behalf of the Department of Highways and Trans portation that the Motor Vehicles Branch, under the Assistant Deputy Minister of that department , has been undertaking negotitions in conjunction wit h the Depart ment of Finan ce , with MPIC , on a new cost -sharing formula . MR . CHERNIACK : What policy directions were given to the negoti ators by the Minister or the Deputy Minister? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr.

Chairman , the directions that were given were to work out an equitable cost- sharing agreement according to the workload performed by the MPB on behalf of MPIC. MR . CHERNIACK : That being the entire policy direction , may I ask whether the Department of Finance - would that be the Treasury Board as compared to the Department of Finance that were involved in these negot iations? MR . ORCHA RD: As I unde rst and , it 's the comptroller in the Department of Finance who has been undertaking the liaison . MR . CHERNIACK : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Well then, the Motor Vehicle Branch - and it 's Mr .

Dygala, I assume we 'r e talking about, is that right? the assistant - Mr. Dygala, and whatever help he has within the Motor Vehicle Branch , and the Compt roller of Finan ce, have been negotiatin g with MPIC in relation to the share-costin g . That apparently is what the Minister is tell ing us . Is that cor rect? Yes. Now, has that been compl eted? MR . ORCHARD : Yes. By and large , th at's been compl ete d , Mr . Chairman . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr.

Chairman , since the annual report of MPIC indicates that the cos t-sharin g is being made retroactive to November 1, 1978, can the Min ister inform us what decision was arrived at for the fiscal year which is end ing at the end of this month? MR . ORCHA RD : Mr . Chairman , when we get into the technical details of the agreement , as I mentioned , the Assistant Deputy Minister has been acting on behalf of the department in his role as Assista nt Deputy Minister for Motor Vehicle Branch , and the specific details that the Member for St .

Johns is now reque stin g are far better answered when I have my assistant Deputy Minister , Mr . Dygala here in dealing with Resolution No . 88 and Motor Vehicles Branch , and those answers can be provided to him at that time . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman , I certainly appreciate .•. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for St . Johns . MR .

CHERNIACK : I do appreciate if the Minister doesn 1 t have the informa ti on at hand , and of course he should postpone the discussion until he has the infor mation, But we are dealin g with a very large sum of mon ey , and I' m wond ering in set tin g up these esti mates for this program whether the esti mates take into - 961 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 account the completed sett lements which has been made or do not take that into account . That' s why I' m asking at this stage . MR . CHAIRM AN : The Hono urable Minister . MR . ORCHA RD : Well once again , Mr. Chairman, we can adequately respond to those types of spec ific questions dealin g with Motor Vehicle Branch and its opera ti on when I have my Assistant Deputy Minister here to provide those specific answe rs. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Johns . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman, of course we will have to wait until we can get answers to the questions . I'm just surprised to note that the administration that we are dealin g with now under l. (

b) does not appear to be aware whether the sett led negotiations have been taken into account in sett ing up the esti mates that are before us, because I can 't ask the general administrative questions once we move into the Motor Vehicle Branch , so I have to ask it at this stage . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Ministe r . MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr. Chairman , should the Member for St . Johns care to be here when we deal with Resolution No . 88 , we can certainly answer his questio ns . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr.

Chairman , it is now clear that the Minister does not have that information and can't answer the question at this stage . I only make that point because I made a special effort to be here for the general administra ti on , because it is responsible for the entire esti mates of $149 millio n, of which this is a substantial part , the point I raise . So the Minister is not able to tell us whether the item in Resolution No . 88 has or has not taken into account the negotiations which relate back to November 19 78. He doesn 't have that infor mation now. Is that corr ect , Mr. Chairman? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr .

Chairman , patience is a great virtue and , as I' ve men ti oned before , the Member for St . Johns who is a man of infinite patien ce, can have his answers fully and completely explained at the time that we deal with Resolution No . 88, Motor Vehicle Bran ch , and the operatin g agreement that we have between Mo tor Vehicle Branch and MPIC. MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman , I must say I don 't need the Minister to comment on my capabil ity to wait or not to wait .

I' m just asking him whether it is correct or not that he does not know, nor does his general administrative department know at this stage in this hour whether or not the negotiations have been taken into account in settin g up the esti mates of this department , or whether he is re fusing to give the informa tion which he does have . It 's one or the other . Either they have the informa tion - and I didn't ask for numb ers , I asked him whether or not the neg otiations have been taken into account .

I'l l just expand it a littl e to say that all we have before us is an annual report which is dated October 31, 19 79, which is about six months ago , and there the negotiations had not been finalize d and yet the MPIC showed an amount in their retroactive to November 19 78 . Now I come back to the questio n, and eit her the Mini ste r doesn 't know the answer at this stage , which I can accept , I can understand that , or he does know the answer and won't give it to us. I wish we 'd know which it is so we 'l l know how the Minister is dealin g with his estim ates . MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr.

Chairman, I'm attempting to deal wit h the esti mates in the order that they appear in the Est imate Book , and I have reiterated on several occasions that questions to do with the working agreement between MPIC and MVB , Motor Vehicle Branch , can be well addressed when we reach that resolution . MR . CHERN IACK : Mr. Chairman, I may have infinite patien ce . I also don 't believe in beatin g a dead horse , which seems to be the situation here . I am forced to the conclusion that since my question was so simple as to whether or not - 96 2 -

Friday , 14 March, 1980 the negotiations have been taken into account in these esti mates , if that answer will not be given now, I have to assume that it 's not available , and because it 's that simple and it is within the Deputy Minister 's item , which is the management , which is the one that submits the final report , I am not aware that the highways and transportation department has been split so that there are di fferent people who make up the est imate s. In the end it is this office we are dealin g with under l. (

b) that should have the total information available . I'm assuming it isn 't available , and if the Minister wants to suggest that it is but he refuses to give the answer , then that 's his privilege . It 's one or the ot her . Either it 's no t available , or it is and he refuses to answer it because in his mind it is a matter that has to wait for Resolution No . 88. MR . ORCHAR D: Mr . Chairman , at the onset of the questions by the Member for St .

Johns, he was menti oning figures and specific dollar amounts which are better answer ed , as I have indicated to him on several occasions , when we deal with Reso lution No . 88, Motor Vehicle Branch . Mr . Chairman, I think it is only a natural proceedure of the examination of the estimates that we proceed resolution by reso luti on, and when he is askin g specifics which deal with dollar figure s, those are much better addressed in the appropriate resolution. That is what I have referred him to, and it seems to me , Mr . Chairman, that the Member for St .

Johns is not willin g to be here when the Motor Vehicle Branch Resolution comes for discussion to place his quest ions th en. MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairman , the Minister seems to forget that for at least three occasions I asked a specific que sti on, whose answer I have not receiv ed , which did not bring into account any figures or any specifics other than whether , and I'l l repeat it for him, whether or no t these esti mates take into account the negotiations that have been conducted over a period of time . That has nothin g to do wit h numbers or amoun ts, it 's just a simple questio n.

Are the esti mates based on the fact that negotiations have been completed , or are they not? Do the esti mates sho w a figure which is in excess of what it would be if it took into account the neg otiations? Now the only other thin g I'v e a comment on , it is not for him to say whether or not I'm willin g to be here . It is for him to say whether or not I will be here , and that remains to be seen. I have no idea. nor does he , when Resolution No . 88 comes up .

Specif ics, I understand , come up under Resolution No . 88, but whether or not a major negotiation involvin g some two and a half milli on dollars a year, apparently , is included or not included in the esti mates presented to us and con firmed under the 1. (

b) which is Administration, if that answer cannot be given, then either it cannot or will not , and the Minister can not talk about details or numbers or anythin g else . I' m just saying is it taken into account or isn't it? And either they are , and he can tell us that , or he doesn 't know, and he can tell us that. Or he refuses to tel l us , and he can tell us that . It's just that sim ple . MR . ORCHA RD : Mr . Chairman , the Member for St .

Johns once again mentions some dollars and cents figure s, which I would very much prefer he brin gs to the est imate process when we reach Resolution 88, but in general ter ms, if he wants to know whether the negotiati ons that have been on going between Moto r Vehicle Branch and MPIC, liaison with the Finance Department , they are included , the results of those negotiat ions are included in the esti mates of MVB . MR . CHERNIACK : ••• my patience did serve me wel l, because the fact is, it took a long time to get a simple answer from the Minister .

But he has now stated that the answer to my question is yes , they are taken into account . Now that's clear , and as I say, it took a long time to get that answer , which could have been given long ago , had the Minister been prepared to co-operate in that resp ect . I will be waitin g now to try to get this ot her in formation, and I hope that the Min ister , who will be here during that Resolution,

whereas I'm not sure that I will be, will be prepared to put on the table the details of the negotiatons to the extent that they have been completed , and to the extent that they are still con tinuing, so that it 's on the record regardless of who is present . I hope he 'll undertake to do that. - 963 -

Pas. Friday , 14 March , 1980 MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW : Mr . Chairman , I wish to yield the floor to the Member for The MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose was next in line . MR . ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I'l l yield to him. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas . MR . McBRIDE: Mr. Chairperso n, before I address my remarks on how this department is administered in this

section , I would like to make positive sure that I understand the program that 's been set out before us in the Estimates book that is before us. I want to clarify that . And I wonder if the Minister could then confir m. that in new programs of construction there is zero dolla rs for The Pas cons titu en cy. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ORCHARD : No , I can't confir m that , Mr. Chairman. MR . McBRID E: Mr . Chairman , then I' 11 ask the Minister , is there other places where work done under The Northlands Agreement could appear other than on the blue sheet that we were handed out?

Are there some items that are not shown in front of us? MR . ORCHAR D: No , Mr. Chairman . MR . McBRI DE : Mr. Chairman , then I will address my remarks to the adminis tration of this department . Mr. Chairman, I think that the Minist er , in the way he is conductin g this new department , probably doesn 't need an administration, because it doesn 't look like he is following any advic e from his field staff , from his engineerin g staff, from anyone within the departme nt . What we have before us, Mr.

Chairman, is a callous political docu ment , which in The Pas const ituency , there are zero dollars for new highway constr uction . Within the Flin Flon consti tuen cy there is a li ttle bit of funds for new constructio n. Within the Churchi ll constitu ency there are zero dolla rs, or almost no money for new construc tion . Within the St . George const ituency there are almost zero dollars for new con struction . Within the Ste .

Rose constituen cy , within the Rupertsland const ituency , within the Lac du Bonnet constituency , there are almost zero dollars, there is almost nothing being done by this Minister in those consti tuen cies. And that's why I say, Mr . Chairman, that this is a dis gustin g political effort by the new Minister . The Minister , as the Member for Ste . Rose indicated at the start , appears to be using his office for political purpose s. The infor mation that 's presented to us this morning by the Minister shows clearly that that is all he is doin g wit h his office.

He has talked very piously about the quality of life in southern Man itoba , and the necessity for roads, Mr. Chairman, and there 's no disagreement with him on that matter . But Mr. Chairman , the people that deserve quality of life in Mani toba are not just the people livin g in Conservative constituen cies. Mr . Chairman , this government is supposed to be the government for all the people of Manitoba , and not just for the people that live in Conservative constituen cies . Mr.

Chairman , the Minister will know that there have been programs in the works, programs in preparation, for example on Highway No . 283 from The Pas to the Saskatchewan border , programs started a number of years ago to upgrade that road ; a program to acquire land , Mr.

Chairman, which I' m assumed , since it 's been going on for three years , has been administratively bungled by this department , because they sti ll, apparently , because there 's no work to be done, do not have the land neces sary , have not acquired that land from people that were unwillin g to bargain and deal wit h the province - they do not have that land to proceed yet. Mr. Chairman , this particular road services The Pas , it services economic and commercial inte res ts, it services the basic needs of the people in The Pas and - 96 4 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 Thompson , because there are lots of people in those communities that have moved from Saskatchewan and whose families still are in Saskatchewan that move back and forth over that road . And what we have now is basically a gravel road there that should be a paved road , the plans were all there, the land acquisit ion was under way so that the road could be widened and so that the road could be paved , and Mr. Chairman, the Ministe r has chosen to proceed not at all , with construction on that particular road. Mr .

Chairman , the Minister has at his dispos al , in northern Manitoba , The Mani toba Northlands Agreement , and he should have between 7 and $9 million a year , at least , under that program for northern constr uction. But then you look over , Mr. Chairman, this blue sheet , and where is that federal mon ey? Sixty percent from the federal government coming in for highway construction? In one northern const ituency . That money is being spent alm ost entirely within the Thompson con stitu en cy , which is the only Conservative constituency in northern Manitoba . Mr.

Chairman, this Minister , I accuse him of crass political maneuvering in terms of the highway program for this year, because that 's all we have here , is, look after the Conserva ti ve const ituencie s, and neglect all the ot her consti tuenc ies in the province of Manit oba . So Mr . Chairman , he doesn 't need an administration, he can sit in his office and talk with a few Conservatives and figure out the highway program . We don 't even need this

section in this budget any more , except to deliver the purely poli tical decis ions that are bein g made by this governm ent . Mr. Chairman , we have another road , for an example , 227 is called the Easter vill e road . And the Deputy Minister is si ttin g there , he 's fully aware of every detail of that particular road. Mr. Chairman , that road needs upgrading into the community of Eastervi lle , but Mr . Chairman, that road was built under The North lands Agreement , it was being upgraded under The Northlands Agreem ent , work was done last year under The Northlands Agreement for that road , and Mr.

Chairman, there are zero dollars for the completion of work on that road in this year's Esti mates. Zero dollars. Why, Mr . Chairman? I think that the only reason that there are zero dollars this year is because it 's in an NDP con stitu ency and not in a Conserva ti ve const itue ncy . That's the way this Minister is operating, that's the way he is administerin g this department . Mr . Chairman , there 's another example , another clear example . There 's a road in The Pas called the Umperville Road . And I mentioned this in the Throne Speech debate, Mr . Chairman.

In the 1977 provincial electi on , the Conser- vative candidate in The Pas constitu ency had an ad in the paper, "When will this road be paved?" His answer , "As soon as a Conservative government is elected ." Last fall , the Premier of this province in The Pas, at a closed Conservative meet- ing , was asked , when will this road be paved? He said , within the next Esti mate s, the next highway program of the department . There is nothing in here , Mr. Chair- man, for that road . Why, Mr . Chairman? Because The Pas is no t a Conservat ive con stitu ency , and Mr.

Chairman , at the rate they are going , never will be again a Conserv at ive const ituency . Mr. Chairman , that Manitob a Northlands Agreement was set up to provide road access to people from remote communities that do not have regular highway access . That was one of the main purposes and the main goals agreed to by the federal and provincial governmen ts. The agreement was expanded under this government and Mr. Chairman , I' m not cri tici zing that , to upgrade some of the existin g roads . Mr. Charman, there are existing roads that need upgrading for the development of northern Man itoba . Mr.

Chairman , there are a couple of communities that were in the process of negotia tio ns , that we had almost reached agreement with the Federal Government to proceed with construction of those roads , and these are two communities that are shown on the map with a pale blue road or a non-des ignated highway. Mr . Chairman, in both of those the Federal Government was about to agree with us that the high ways that were in there could not be considered highways and therefore they would qualify as areas without access . Mr.

Chairman , with the changed arrangement it doesn 't matter anyway , the changed arrangement is to provide improved access . Mr. Chairman , the commun ity of Pel ican Rapids which has a windy gravel road that needs cons iderable work done , is very dangerous right now, has a high number of accide nts , and , Mr. Chairman , the Jackhead road which was built as a Forestry access road and both of those roads were close to bein g included in the Northlands - 96 5 -

Friday , 14 March, 1980 Agreement in 1977 . They hadn 't been conclusively agreed to , but nego tiations were under way and looked very promisin g . Again, Mr. Chairman , the Minister has writ ten those roads off, writ ten those roads off ; one because it is in an NDP const ituency and one because it is in a Conservative consti tuency that has changed boundaries , next time it will no longer be in a Conser vati ve const ituency . So, Mr . Chairman, that is why those two roads have been wri tten off by this Minister . Mr.

Chairman , in the new highway map , there was shown here a proposed road to Cross Lake, it is shown on the map . Where is it in the Budge t? Where is it in this Budget? Mr. Chairman , that community with the redistribution will no longer be in the Thompson const ituency , therefore this Minister has now decided not to proceed with the road that he shows in the map, that it is going to be con structed . Mr. Chairman, there is nothing in here on the Cross Lake ro ad. So what we have before us is a clear example , a clear example, Mr.

Chairman , of the abuse of political office by this Minister and this governm ent , a clear abuse of their office and their respons ibility to the people of Manitoba , a crass poli tical document that says we will build new roads in Conservative constituencies and to hell with NDP constituen cies , to hell with the rest of the people of Mani to ba. That is this Minister 's att itude and he doe sn't need this Administ ration

Section if he is going to conduct his deparment in that manner , Mr. Chairman . MR. ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, as is normal in such dis traught times , the Mem ber for The Pas is ranting and raving and not really making all that much sen se, Mr. Chairman. As a specific example of how badly he does his particular research into the construction priori ties of this department , I think it is far to point out that the Cross Lake road is indeed bein g constructed at this moment . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet I believe had the Chair , and I am not sure if he still wants the Cha ir , wants recognitio n.

MR . USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I want to respond to the Minister 's initial com ments by indicatin g to the government and to the Minister that we are somewhat concerned with respect to the quick way in which this government is capitulat ing on the issue of transportation policy in Canada, and that has to do in the area of switchin g from rail transport to truck transp ort .

It seems to me that what I would have wanted to hear from the Minister is some explanation as to what para meters this government has establ ished for guidelines in order that we take into account the public interest in te rms of costs that are involved and in te rms of efficiency energywi se , because the two are very closely relat ed . I have yet to be convin ced , Mr . Chairman, that truck transport is more effi cient than rail transport costw ise, energywi se.

There are a whole host of arguments that can be made with respect to wanting to improve the rail system as oppose d to abandoning the rail system and launching into a massive highways pro gram in order to provide the transportation services that are required throughout the provin ce. We know that we have had this particular kind of discussion for a good number of years, as between provinc ial government and the Government of Canada. The latest example of absurdity in this area, Mr. Chairman , has to be the recent acceleration of long-haul trucking of grain from Manitoba points to Thunder Bay. Mr.

Chairman , I would like to know whether his department has really done any work or studies to dete rmine the economics of that kind of thing , recognizing the fact that we have a railway system already built , has been there for 100 years or more , and recognizing the fact that driving trucks requires two persons per truck , requires a highway system which consumes a tremendous amount of oil for asphalt pavement and really whether the question should n't be whether we should start working the other way in reducing the tonnage that is moved by truck and pushing that to nnage into the rai lway syst em.

I think that is the kind of infor mation that we wou ld want the Minister through his Administration and Research Department to provide for us. Can the Minister respond to the question of the economics of trucking versus rail wit h respect to grain? Do we have some figures where we can show that it does or doesn 't make sense to transfer that product or to move that product by truck rather than to improve the rai lway system to make it more efficient so that it could respond to present day, modern day needs in terms of speed , facil ity , - 966 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 locality and so on? Surely the Minister must have had some research done in order to det ermine that (

a) this government is going to abandon the railways along with the Government of Canada or lend support to that concept and start moving towards the idea of spending hundreds of mill ions of dollars on roads and bridges in order that an alternate transportation system can be put in place as the railway lines are removed . MR . ORCHAR D: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . The opposition members seem to have a certain amount of difficulty in coming to grips with what is actually bein g pro posed and being suggested in the remarks pertinent to the Highways Department in the Throne Speech. The Member for Ste .

Rose in his Address to the Throne Speech made the accusa tion of the department that we were proceeding with road contruction so that we could have further abandonments of rail . The Member for Lac du Bonnet has just indicated that he likewise believes this is what we are at tempting to do. I at tempted to clarify th at , Mr. Chairman , in my remarks to the Throne Speech Debate.

What in fact we are doing in the Capital Construction Program this year and it was started last year by my predeces sor , is we are now in the process of upgrading roads in areas where the rail lines have already been abandoned because substantial abandonment has taken place in this provin ce, Mr. Chairman , over the past ten years, and because everything is politic al, as the Member for Lac du Bonnet has forewarned me before we started the Est imates today , eight of those ten years, Mr .

Chairman, were when the members opposite had full and complete access to the information necessary for the provinc e of Manitoba to protect its interest in retaining rail lin es. Mr. Chairman, as I pointed ou t in my Throne Speech Debate the very fact that many miles of rail line were abandoned during their eight-year rule in this provin ce , or ordered to be abandoned during their eight -year rule in this provin ce, proves concretely and unequivocally that they in fact were the failures in any attempt to save the rail lines for the grain producers and the rural constitu ents of this provinc e. Mr.

Chairman, I att empted to point that out in my Throne Speech Debate and apparently it fell on deaf ears in the opposition because they insist on brin ging up that we are atte mptin g to build roads to promote the abandonment of rail lin es. Mr. Chairman , I reiterate once again , the roads that we are build ing in the majorit y , not completely , but in the majority are roads that are being upgraded to accommodate addit ional truck freight caused by already exist ing rail line abandon ment that took place during the , the majority of the abandonment took place during the NDP administration in this provinc e.

They made, seemingly , no attempt to address thems elves to the reconstruction of the provincial road system in those affected areas durin g their reign , and we have just heard , Mr. Chairman , the Mem ber for The Pas and the Member for Ste . Rose accuse me of crass politics in not buildin g roads in their particular con stitu ency . Well, Mr. Chairman , if they are going to lay that accusation upon me in this road budget , then where were they , where was the Member for Ste .

Rose and where was their Minister of Highways in the eight budgets that they brought down in accommodating road reconstruction in areas that through which the rail lines were abandoned during their ti me . They , Mr.

Chairman, made no efforts on behalf of the ci tizens of rural Manitoba in many of these areas to reconstruct the roads affected by rail line abandonment , not pro posed , not future rail line abandonment , but existing rail line abandonment that occurred during their administration when they were the government responsible for fighting for the retention of those rail lines and by and large were unsuccessful in that fight and as a result we saw rail lines abandoned . What I am doing in this department , what my predecessor , the Honoura ble Mr.

Enns , att empted to do as well, is to reconstruct roads in areas which are already effected by rail line abandonment , Mr . Chairman, and if that is crass pol itics , as the Member for The Pas has so callously laid that accusation upon my shou lders , then goodness gracious, Mr.

Chairman, how crass a political regime did we have in this province for eight years under the NDP when they saw the rail lin es , number one , bein g abandoned in rural Manitoba , where coincidentally they didn 't have any seat s, they weren 't NDP seats so their fight and their effort was much less ag gress ive , I would assume , if we follow the crass politics they have accused me of· Much less aggressi ve then they would have been had they been NDP seats , if - 967 -

Friday , 14 March , 1980 that is what we follow by everythin g is politic , as the Member for Lac du Bonnet tell us . Then , Mr . Chairman , the crass politic s has already taken place in this province by the fact that the previous admin ist ration in eight years made very li ttle effort to retain the rail lines and furthermore to augment the problem , once the rail lines were gone did not hing to upgrade the roads in the areas affected . Now, Mr.

Chairman , if I am accused of crass politic s , I am accused of crass politics by people with croco cil e tears, because they promoted the greatest era of crass politics in the road system of Manitoba that we have ever seen . We are pickin g up the pieces of that kind of crass poli tics under NDP admin ist ration for eight years in Manit oba , and we are at temptin g to build upon a road system that now is nee ded because of existing rail line abandonmen t. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for Lac du Bonne t. MR . USKIW: Mr . Chairman, the Minister knows not what he speaks of.

He has obviously not researched his argument or his presentation, or his choice of pre sentation before he gave it to this Commit tee , because I am sure that if he had at all even asked his Deputy Minister to whisper in his ear or his staff that he woul d know ot her than what he has just stated .

The fact of the matter is that the whole question of rail line abandonment and grain transporta ti on in Western Canada was focused on at the Western Premiers Con ference and for the benefit of the Minister of Highways , who hasn 't taken the time to find out what has transpired up to this point in time , I want to advise him , Mr.

Chairman , that it was the Manitoba position paper that was adopted at the Western Premiers Conference on the idea of the public taking over the responsi bility for the road beds in Western Canada and subsequently lease those road beds to the railway compan ies in order that the public would decide which roads, which rail beds would remain and which would not rem ain, and that position was adopted un animously by the four western Premie rs. MR . ORCHAR D: When? MR . USKIW: Some time four or five years back, Mr.

Chairman , when that pos iti on was adopte d by the four western Premiers of Canada, which included by the way the province of Alberta and the province of British Colum bia, and so the Min iste r of Highways ought to make some enquiries from his own departments to know what has transpired with regard to the question of where we are going policy-wise on grain transportation in western Canada and ra

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-17a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 17a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2ce70f86ad024dd8b13998187aa449098573e6dc

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