Manitoba Hansard — 15 March 1960 (Sitting 42, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 42 March 15, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen'S Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DA,IL Y INDEX Tuesday, March 15, 1960, 2:30P.M. Committee Report: Law Amendments (Mr. Lyon) . . • . . • . . • . • . . . . . • . • . • . . • • . . . • . . . . 1579 Introduction of Bills: No. 122 (Mr. Wright) . .. . .. . . . . .. .. . .. • • . .. • . . . .. . . • .. • . . .. • 1579 Adjourned Debates: re Margarine (Mr. Seabom): Mr. Froese .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. • 1581 Mr. Gray . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . • . . . • . • . . • . . . . . . . . • . • . . . • . . • • • • . . . 1584 M.r.

Hryhorczuk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . .. • . • • . . . • • . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . 1585 Mr. Baizley, M. Bjomson . . . . . . . . • . . • • . • . • • . . • • • . . . . . . . • • . . . . . • • . • • • 1588 Mr. Re id . . . . • • . . . . . • • • . • . . . • . . . . . . • . • . . . . . . . • . • . . . . . . • . . . . . . . • . . . • 1589 Second Reading: Bill 83 (Mr. Schreyer): Ruling by Mr. Speaker . . . . • . • • . • . . • • . . . • . . • 1590 Bill 93 (Mr. Schreyer), Bill 80 (Mr. Orlikow) . . . . . . • • • • . . • . . • • . • . • • • • • • . • • . . • • .1590 Bill 96 (Mr.

Cowan) . • . • . . . . • • • • . • . . . . • • . • • . • . • . . . . . . • • • . • • • . . . . . . • . • • • • . . . 1593 Bill 97 (Mr. Hamilton), Bill 98 (Mr. Baizley) .. .. .. . .. . .. .. . .. • • .. .. • .. . • .. • .. 1S94 Mr. Martin . . • . . . . • . • . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . • . . . . . . • • . • • • • . . . . . . • . . • • • • • • • 1595 Mr. Seabom • • • • . . • . . • . • . . • . . • • • . . . . • • • • . • . • • • • • . • . . . • • • • • • • • • • • • . . 1598 Mr. Dow, Mr. Guttormson, Mr. Paulley . . . . • • .. .. . . . . . . • . • . . • . . • .. . . • 1602 Bill 95 (Mr. Shewman), Billl06 (Mr.

Desjardins),Bill 94 (Mr. Cowan) . • . . . . . • • • 1603 Mr. Gray, Mr. Hillhouse............................................. 1604

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, March 15th, 1960 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions . Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General)(Fort Garry): I beg to present the third report of the Select Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your Select Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg me to present the following as their third report. You.r Committee has considered Bills No.78,

an Act to amend the Mineral Taxation and the Statute Law Amendment Act 1959; No.81,

an Act to amend the Legislative Assembly Act; and has agreed to report the same without amendments. Your Committee has also considered Bills No.50,an Act to amend the Game and Fisheries Act; No. 58,

an Act to amend the Mechanics' Liens Act; No.77,

an Act to amend The Hospital Service Insurance Act and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments, all of which is respectfully submitted. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that the report of the committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion. Introouction of Bills. The Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) introduced Bill No. 122,

an Act to amend and interpret The Consolidated School District of Seven Oaks Consolidation Act. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. R. SEABORN (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to draw your attention to the west gallery where there are 31 pupils from Clifton School which is in that grand constituency of Wellington. They are under the guidance of Miss Lam bert and I hope they will enjoy their visit to this Chamber and I know the members will want to bid them welcome. MR. WRIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Da:y I would like to direct the attention of the House to the gallery on your right where there are 25 grades IV and V pupils from Centennial School in West Kildonan. They are here this afternoon with their teacher Miss Helen Janzen and we hope that their visit here this afternoon will both be interesting and enjoyable. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities)(The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to lay on the table of the House a return to an Order of the House No.25 in the name of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. E. PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education and ask him whether he will be able to, or if he intends to table the order for return with respect to the number of boys and girls attending high schools in rural Manitoba and in urban Manitoba?

I would like to ask this because I would like to have the answer before we go into concurrence. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Yes, Mr. Speaker, just at the moment -- I'm glad the honourable member drew my attention to it. I was rather under the impression it had been tabled. I'm sorry, I'll attack it immediately. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I rise on a question of privilege. This has to do with infoq:nation given to the press before being given to this House and with your permission Mr.

Speaker, I would like to quote from Hansard, page 1395 on March lOth where my Leader asked a question during the Public Works estimates, and I quote my Leader. "I would also like to ask th� Minister, and I believe this comes in his jurisdic tion, and it may not, but there was some tslk some time ago of the Canadian National Railway disposing of their properties at Grand Beach. I believe that there were consultations between a group of summer residents of Grand Beach with the Provincial Government as to the March 15th, 1960 Page 1579

(Mr. Wright, cont'd.) ••••• possibility. of either it being taken over by the provincial authority, or some satisfactory arrangement made between all parties concerned so that the facilities of this lovely beach would be continued and that the residents in the area would have some semb lance of control for the operation of the beach. Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to belabour the committee any longer , but I thought that I should draw these. matters to the attention of the committee." In other words, Mr.

Speaker, my Leader was ·asking the question and expected to get the answer under the Department of Industry and Commerce. (Interjection). Oh, the reply is on the next page, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry. The Honourable Minister replied, "I would like to make a few comments at this time on some of the remarks which have been presented to the committee. In connection with the --and I probably should begin with the last spokesman, the Honourable Member for Transcona, the Leader of the CCF Party. The question of Grand Beach has not come directly to the attention of our department at the moment.

I think the Minister of Industry and Commerce may have a statement to make on that, he tells me, when his estimates are reached." Well Mr. Speaker, we have reached those estimates and have passed them, and to my dismay this morning in the Free Press, with your permission I would like to quote it: Tuesday, March 15th, "Government to purchase Grand Beach. The Provincial Government is planning another Falcon Lake type resort on the shores of Lake Winnipeg. It will purchase the CNR properties at Grand Beach at a cost of $225, 000.

Announcement of the project was made in a press release issued Monday by Honourable Gurney Evans, Minister of Industry and Commerce as he presented his estimates to Committee of Supply. Mr. Evans did not read his statement to the�egislature." Now, that's one case, Mr. Chairman. We have another one in this morning's paper too.

"CNR freight tolls chopped in the north" and I'm not going to burden the House with reading all of it but it says: "The Honourable Gurney Evans, Minister of Industry and Commerce, Monday night said the CNR has already chopped certain freight rates in northern Manitoba fol lowing government requests. The Minister's disclosure was contained in a press release given to newspaper reporters when his estimates came before the Legislature although the Minister did not reveal the information to the House." Now, Mr.

Speaker, inasmuch as we were here last evening until 11:30 I would like to ask the Minister why he did not reveal this information to the House. One of my constituents has been after me for information in regard to the sale of Grand Beach for some 12 months and I told him that I expected that one of these days we would have something announced in the House. Now I was just wondering this morning what he's going to think when he reads it in the paper tonight and that I as an MLA did not know about it before I went home last night.

I think that my Leader was certainly entitled to this information last night in view of the fact that he asked this question under the Public Works estimates and the Minister of Public Works intima ted at the time that the question would be probably answered under the estimates of the Honour able Minister mentioned. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Fort Rouge): Mr. Speak er, I regret very much that this has happened. It is perfectly right; I think the point is entire ly correct that this information should have been given to the House before it was published in the newspaper.

I regret that it happened and I apologize to the House for it. I would like to explain how it came about.

The .information was contained in my speak ing notes and the honourable members who are here in the committee may remember that I made a statement on the salary of the Director of each of the Branches, then the hour being late when we came to the Tourist Branch and the Manitoba Development Authority, I decided to omit the statements and tO answer questions, which was a mistake, because in my notes was reference to both these matters and it was from really the copy of my speaking notes that the press drew their information. The press was entirely. correct in publishing it the way they did.

It was my mistake for not insisting on making my t\vo further statements on the Tourist Branch and the Manitoba Development Authority • I regret that this has happened. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF Party)(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, if I may before we go into the Orders of the Day as listed on the Order Paper, I would like to draw to your attention and to the attention of the House that the normal order of procedure is not being ob served as listed in the Orders for Return. I'm not raising any objection, Mr. Speaker, to that Page 1580 March 15th, 1960

(Mr. R. Paulley, cont•d.) ..... being done at this time. We did give leave of the House as I recall it the other day for the change in procedure, but I think , Mr. Speaker, if we do go into Private Members' Bills ahead of Private Motions that it should be by leave of the House. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier)(Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, in reply to what the Honour able gentlemen says, be raised the point with me this morning and I told him that it was my firm understanding that when I raised the matter in the House the other day that we would con tinue to do this until we cleared these bills. That was the purpose for doing it. However, if there's the slightest objection on anybody's

part I certainly would agree that we should revert to the usual order of business. But I would like to explain that my understanding of the situation was that we had consent to do this. However, if anyone objects we'll revert to the other order. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not raising objections, I'm merely pointing out to all of the members of the House the standard procedure and I agree with the Honourable the First Minister, but it was my impression that it only referred to that particular day.

I don't think my friends on the right would have any objections to the Order paper - I certainly have !l't as far as I'm concerned. MR . PREFONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, speaking for my Leader I would say that I was present I believe when the Leader of the, House debated, or discussed with us this proposal that we should have the Bills before the resolutions, and I at that time was under the impression the same as the Leader of the CC F that it was for that particular day, but I'm sure that we have no particular objection that we should do it today again. MR .

SPEAKER: I take it it's in order then to proceed as the Order Paper is printed - by leave. Orders of the Day. MR. E. GUTTORMSON(St. George): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the First Minister. When will the City of Winnipeg know whether or not their plans for a City Hall will be acceptable? I believe the government has had the plans for two months and some of them are getting anxious to hear from the government on this point. lVIR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I'll communicate with the City of Winnipeg just as soon as my professional advisors communicate with me.

I should point out to the Committee that the timetable isn't quite as clear cut as my honourable friend intimated. I have in my desk here, which I could read to the House, but I won't bother, a timetable showing when the material reached the hands of the provincial architect because I felt reasonably certain someone would raise this point before too long. One of the things that has bothered us is that not only was it necessary to get the decision of the judges in respect of the contest but also to get the adden dum that each judge submitted.

There were five judges and each one of them had some obser vations of his own to make in addition to what was generally published as being their decision.

We've had great difficulty in getting those five decisions into our hands, one in particular has only been received very recently, and we felt that it would be unwise to finalize the matter --I withdraw that word --it would be unwise to complete the matter --finalize is a dreadful word, should never be used in this House --until we had that particular opinion before us, because it has a bearing on the exact arrangment and spacing of the structure that is to be built.

It's only within the last little while that we have actually received the final and complete data that we need in order to base our decisions, so it really has not been. in our hands for the period of time mentioned. However, I expect to hear very shortly from my professional advisors on this matter and do not expect any undue delay. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Wellington, second reading of Bill No.51,

an Act to amend the Mar garine Act, by leave. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. SPeaker, the Bill that is before us respecting the coloring qf margarine has already been debated quite extensively and a good deal of infor mation has already been brought forth on various matters pertaining to margarine and I would not like to be too repetitious on this matter today, so I would more or less like to explain my position and also to clear up some of the matters touched on by previous speakers and which I feel are incorrect.

Now the value of the dairy industry has already been touched on and we know that the dairy industry today is the one that is still operating and I would say flourishing,

whereas many of our other, especially specialty agricultural industries are quite in trouble. I too remember the depression days and know what carried the people in the country through. March 15th, 1960 Page 1581

(Mr. Froese, cont'd.) ••••• Had it not been for dairying and the sale of cream and butter a lot of our farmers would have fared much worse than they did. Now in connection with the growing of the special crops, of oil crops, oil· seed crops and also in connection with the Vegetable Oils Plant at Altona which is owned by the producers of southern Manitoba, I would like to say a few words and at this time, I would like to read of the anntial report of the shareholders' meeting held on November 14th, 1959. Under the operation al report by the manager was a

section that dealt with margarine and I would like to read that

section to you at this time, and I quote: "Your organization is a member of the Institute of Edible Oil Foods. Your directors saw fit to support this organization recently in their efforts to lift the ban on colored margarine. Many of the directors and many of the shareholders own diary cattle. As dairy farmers their views may differ on the question. However, the directors felt that they were elected to represent the views of the oil seed producers and support what they believed to be in the best interests of your vegetable oils plant.

In the last two years more and more of our oils from domestic crops has gone into production of margarine. Of course, most of the oil from imported crops also goes into margarine. We have tried for many years to get the margarine producers to use rapeseed oil in their products. As we have been success ful in the past two years we do not wish to jeopardize our position in this regard, for as our production of rapeseed oil increases we hope the manufacturers will turn more and more to rapeseed oil for their margarine production.

" Then, last summ er most of you probably saw the ad that appeared in the two daily news papers in the city and also in our local weekly newspaper at Altona in which the Vegetable Oils made a statement regarding margarine and oil seeds. And in this statement, I would just make one or two comments on the statement, for example the total farm value of oil seed crops in Manitoba in 1958 was nearly 15 millions, a 50% increase over the value of the 1957 crop.

Then they point out in bold print, this is more than farmers got for their creamery butter; it is half what they got for their barley; it is more than half the value of their oats. Then they go on to say, "the bulk of this crop, of course, is represented by nearly 600,000 acres of flax for which there is a ready market abroad.

In fact, Canada is now the world's leading exporter of flax seeds, though oil seed crops are rape, soy bean and sunflower." Now if we take 600,000 acres of flax and multiply that by roughly 8 bushels per acre and value it at 2. 50 a bushel you'll have around 12 1/2 million dollars, so that out of 15 million dollars 12 1/2 million dollars is made up out of flax seed which is not an edible oil and which is not used in margarine or any foods.

Then further, at the bottom of that statement, they say and urge the members of this Legisla ture , "we trust that the members of the Legislature will realize that it is in the true interests of Manitoba farmers and consumers to pass the Bill." This is what I question very much, when they say in the true interests. After all only a very small portion of our vegetable oils in Manitoba is going into margarine.

Then also, after their annual meeting they sent out a bulletin to their members which in part reads this way: "The Co-operative will depend on im ported soy beans for over 80% of its crushing seed requirements this year". I wish to inform the members of this House that the bulk of the seed processed at the Altona plant is imported from the US, it is soy beans imported from the United States. Now, I wish to make some further comments from their report in connection with pro duction and particularly to soy beans.

And I am quoting from the 1958 report which is part of the agronomy report presented to the annual meeting and which has this to say, quote: "Soy beans yeilds this year did not fare as well as sunflowers. The acreage was doubled from last year to at least 6, 000 acres this year. The average yield is believed to have been about nine bushels per acre. Yields varied greatly all the way from three bushels per acre to 20 bushels per acre.

Drought and late !3Pring frosts were again responsible for these varied yields • " Then further to tliat in the '59 report-- agronomy report, they state the following: "Soy bean acreage was down from about 4,000 acres in 1958 to 1,000 acres this year. The poor showing of soy bean yield as compared to other crops in 1958 is believed responsible for the acreage red uction. IT Then in handwriting, "Plus reduction in price USA. IT. "Rape seed acreage has also been a contentious matter.

This can be seen by the fact that we contracted rapeseed this year with the guaranteed initial payment of 2 1/2 cents a pound based on 1958 results. Now we are paying 3.60 a hundredweight delivered at CVO. Prices and seed demands are dependent on exports of whole rapeseed. The rapeseed acreage was down from 1958." And further on Page 1582 March 15th, 1960

(Mr. Froese, cont'd.) ••••• the follovd.ng page "The soy bean crop this year is fairly good. The Crest variety this year is strongly favored for its pod height and plant height. Average yield should be over 15 bushels per acre. The most telling factor in producing a good crop of soy beans is still weed control and innoculation. 25 soy bean varieties are being tested at several stations in Manitoba and the US.

Some lines are showing great promise but it is not known when a new variety will be released." Then on rapeseed, "Rapeseed yields appear to be higher this year than in 1958 but total production is expected to be 35% lower for Manitoba due to re duced acreage. Acreage reduction was largely due to unfavourable weather conditions during seeding time. Breeding work in rapeseed is largely conducted at Saskatoon and at the Univer sity of Manitoba. Last year an early maturing variety, "Arlow", the first of the so-called Polish types to be licensed in Canada was released.

Polish types of rapeseed are recommend ed for late seeding and for northern areas, It is very difficult to process the small seed of Polish varieties. The percentage seed"'1:loat is higher than in the Argentine types of seed. Most important is the lower oil ·content. No ne'W varieties are expected to be licensed this year." Then further to that we have the current review of agricultural conditions in Canada. This is of November, 1958 and has this to say regarding soy beans. "Of the total acreage of 263,000 only 7,000 acres were in Manitoba where average yields of 12.9 bushels per acre are reported.

The remainder of the soy bean crop is grown in Ontario." And in the May issue of that same publication they have this to say under the heading of "Rapeseed." "There has been some doubt regarding the use of rapeseed oil for human consumption. However, recently the Department of National Health and Welfare announced that it had no objection at this time to the use of rapeseed oil in moderate amounts in foods in Canada. This announcement may have a stimulating effect on crushings of rapeseed.

Whether or not rapeseed oil will find wider appli cation in Canada depends on such factors as the price relationship between different vegetable and animal oils and rapeseed oil, on consumers' habits and on technical difficulties connected with the crushing and refining of rapeseed. " Then on sunflowers they go on to say, "Trade in sunflower seed or sunflower seed oil is relatively small. Exports are limited to certain seeds for confectionary purposes and some sunflower seed oil is imported at regular intervals. The price of imported sunflower seed oil averaged over 19 cents per pound in 1956 .

At this time sunflower seed oil cannot compete with other edible vegetable oils for a wider acceptance as a component of margarine or shortening, and therefore its use is limited to salad oils and simi lar products." During the year '58-59 the Oil Plant at Altona processed 3, 417 tons of sunflowers, and 15, 150 tons of soy beans, and 4,184 tons of rape seed. The rape seed is double the amount of the previous year, which stood at 2,248 tons; the others compared quite well with that of the previous year.

Now, according to these reports and also the the practices in the locality we find that today the soybean varieties that are at hand are either (1) that they're of a late variety, and therefore a lot of risk is taken, especially regarding frost and so on, the late varieties are the heavier yielders, and therefore are not accepted because of the risk. And the other varieties are early varieties but are very poor yielders.

So that what we need is a more earlier variety which will also yield well, so that we could supply our own oils plant with soy beans instead of having to import as already stated, SO% of the total amount crushed. So that when Vegetable Oils even though they might sponsor, or make a statement in the Press.re garding the coloring ban, that it be removed,· certainly they've never consulted their member ship, and I know this for a fact because having membership I've never been consulted in any way on the removal of such a ban. I too, know that it would have quite an effect on the commu nity as such.

Now what are the gains actually then that we have through Vegetable Oils. Well let me say that in 1958 the net earnings of that organization wer.e roughly $19,600, and in '59 we had $59,331. That, including the amount that is used--I forget the term used--but enough is for the purpose of carrying on operations throughout the year so that their carry over as such would not bear so heavi.ly on the organization. In this way they can process the 'rapeseed and the sunflower seed and then start in on soy beans, and they work the balance of the year on soy beans in order to take care of the overhead.

So that farmers in the area do benefit to a certain extent from the Vegetable Oils Plant; but as far as I can see it, it does not nearly compare with the amounts received 'through the dairy industry. It seems to me that it is --to use an example March 15th, 1960 Page 1583

(Mr. Froese, cont'd.) ••••• of the dog that crossed the creek on a plank, and when he saw his shadow he dropped his bone, and tried to grasp the other one and therefore lost what he had, and the other one did not materialize --and I think that's what would happen if this color ban was removed. We would disturb the dairy industry and yet have nothing to gain.

Further, I was wondering the other day when the report was tabled on this commission on margarine just why was it that one man, a one man commission, was to prevent the occur rence of a minority report, Was it just so that we would have the unanimous verdict on the matter. And why was an urban man appointed? Probably this could have an influence on his thinking. The urban areas more naturally represent another. line of thought than what the rural areas have, and therefore I think we should probably have an answer to that question. .

We heard quite a bit of discussion on a previous occasion on discrimination in this matter. Let me tell those people tla t the housewife certainly has every right to buy margarine, to have it colored if she wants to, so that we're not preventing anyone from having colored margarine as such. And that I would ask the. members of this House to vote down, or oppose the Bill on eliminating the ban on colored margarine. MR . M. A.

GRAY (Inkster): I had the pleasure of being in this House since the mar garine question came up first regarding the sale of margarine uncolored, and then I had the privilege of listening to the debate as many times as the Bill was introduced, and I also had the privilege of listening to those who introduced similar bills giving the margarine people millions of dollars of advertising free of charge. And by the way, before I speak--continue, I am speaking entirely for myself and not in any way for the group or anyone else.

And I want to make another statement, that I will not take second place of anyone in this House as to my interest of the farmers in general and particularly of the dairy industry which furnishes and provides essential food supply like milk, cheese, cream and everytti!g that goes with it. The original demand for the sale of margarine came from thousands of housewives in the city who are unable to increase the expense for the food of the family when butter was sold almost twice as high as margarine. Everyone likes butter better. That's my statement.

I have never used margarine myself, I always use butter, but I feel that it was almost a necef!sity in years gone by when conditions financially were much worse, but particularly for the working man's wife to balance its table budget as it is now. But the dairy industry had failed in trying to sell their products. I don't remember their ever advertising; I don't remember ever reading something to show that butter is healthier or not and I have never seen telling people that butter is a better product, not any worse than margarine.

And it is the duty of everyone to help the indus try as I have already stated who are providing the essentials to at least half of the population in the city. At the same time I cannot see any difference whether margarine will be colored the same as butter or in a different color or leave it as it is now for the housewife to do the so-called nuisance duty of coloring themselves --coloring the margarine themselves. In my humble opinion, having the dairy industry very much at heart, and believe me I speak the truth, I proved it during my 19 years here in this House, but I cannot see what the battle is on.

The only way they could sell butter is either by the price or subsidized by the government as it was. Alld by the way, when the government had a surplus of butter they sold it at a very low price somewhere else and did not give an opportunity to have this butter sold in Canada for a lesser price. in order that the housewife could go back to butter instead of the margarine which I. claim that 90% is on account of economic reasons. It's up to the butter industry to sell their product the same as anyone else. Every product that is being sold on the market is being well advertised.

We haven't seen a radio address --I haven't heard a radio address, I have n't seen a television address, I have not received a single piece of literature except during the session when this question is coming up. So from .all points of view, I personally don't think that this particular coloring of margarine will do the dairy industry any harm at all. And I am going to support coloring, and I again wish to state not for the purpose of doing any harm to the dairy industry, which I am interested in, but the reason is that I don't think that coloring of margarine will do any harm to the dairy industry.

And that's the position I take and this is the position I have taken before. And I want to assure the honourable ·members that never in my life have I spoken or supported anything for political reasons. I have never done it. Well believe it or not you can laugh all you want, I am making my statement. For political Page 1584 March 15th, 1960

·(Mr. Froese, cont'd.) ••••• reasons I said, I have supported whatever I have thought is right but not for political reasons, because certain honourable members do not believe sometime how can a person be in public life and not do things which he does not believe for the purpose of political expediency. I do believe in it and the smiles of some honourable members I throw back, I don'Uhink they are justified in doing this and they cann ot prove it. Everything I do here in this House is not personally to help my party or to help myself. When I do it I actually believe in it.

And many times I may disagree with my own party on certain matters but I have never done it for any political reasons and I do not want any of the honourable members -- I don't thipk they have justified-- I don't think they have the right to doubt my word or any other honourable member's word when they say that all my actions in this House is what I believe in, and I sincerely believe that the fault is entirely on the dairy industry and if they wake uR, if not all at least 50% will go back to butter, because everyone feels that as a food value butter is healthy , better and it protects their own families by the dairy industry providing them with milk which is very, very essential.

Take it or leave it, this is my honest and true statement and you cann ot prove otherwise. MR.M.N.HRYHORCZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert-Plains): Mr. Speaker, I don't doubt the sincerity of the Honourable Member for Inkster. I've sat in this House with him for -- oh quite a number of sessions --but I'm not quite like him . I can't stand up here and say that I am absolutely free of any political interests. As a politician there are times when it does enter into the picture, but I think, Mr.

Speaker, that I can say with all sincerity that in spite of the fact that the vast majority of the people residing in my constituency are dependent on the sale of cream to a very large extent for their livelihood. I do not take the stand I will because of that, but because I have had the opportunity throughout all of my life to see how dependent these people are on the sale of cream. And it would be immaterial to me whether I resided in the City of Winnipeg or in any other part of the Province of Manitoba, I still would be of the same opinion that I am today. Now it appears to me, Mr.

Speaker, that there are four entities that enter into this picture. There is the government to a degree; the manufacturers; the housewife that is the consumer; and the farmer and his family. Now I want to very briefly outline why I think the government enters into this picture a little more than is apparent from the surface. I'd like to have the members of the committee recall just what happened to a similar bill last year.

It was introduced by the Honourable Member for Wellington exactly in the same form as it is be fore us today, after laying on the Order Paper for a long time and I'm told after being caucused quite intensively by the Conservative Party, one of the Conservative members introduced an amendment. Now I'm not implying, Mr. Speaker, that he had any directions from his party, but I do say that there was caucus influence, so the government hasn't altogether divorced it self from the responsibility of that time. Now what has happened this year?

The Bill was introduced again and it was on the Order Paper for a long time before we had a debate on it and I, along with others, was wondering what the holdup was. It's a simple Bill. Why isn't it being brought to second reading and a debate held on it. Well I think that we received the first indication as to why the Bill was held up� in the Tribtme of February 25th, and I'm going to quote from this paper, Mr. Speaker, and I quote: "Until now colored margarine has been the mystery Bill in the corridors of the Legislature.

Some rural members have been pressing for compromised legislation which would restrict coloring to a yellowish-orange shade. There was speculation on whether this would have been a government measure. :However, the pro posal, closely guarded by conservative members -- and why by .conservative members -- met with strong opposition from the margarine manufacturers when it was reported in the Tribune recently. They claim it would make their product tmattractive and possibly reduce sales." So what were the conservative members concerned with? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order and I stand subject to correction on this point, but I believe it's a well known and established rule of the House that members are not supposed at any rate to read from newspaper comments which comment upon tbe proceedings· of the ·House. Now I've read the same

article as the honourable member and I have no parti cular objection as a person to him reading that, but I'm just wondering if it appears to you Sir, as it does appear to me, that this is, at least technically I would say, in breach of that rule. March 15th, 1960 Page 1585

MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Speaker, if I may on the point of order. It might be a far fetched technical infringement on the rules, but only far-fetched. In the first place the comment is not on the proceedings of what's going on here in the House.

What l'm·quoting here is what was going on outside of the Chamber. --(Interjection)--I'm quoting from a newspaper that I have found fairly reliable in the past when it came to what the Conservatives were doing, and if you're going to put me in doubt insofar as this paper is concerned, then I'll be in a position where I couldn't believe any paper, and I wouldn't want to reach the time when I am so convin ced, because I think it would be wrong. MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Could I ask a question Mr. Speaker? Did I under stand if you couldn't believe the Tribune ·you couldn't believe any newspaper? MR .

HRYHORCZUK: If we clear up the point of order maybe then we can see where we stand on this. MR . SPEAKER: •.•• the Honourable Member for Ethelbert-Plains should not make use of the newspaper. He is giving opinions of the writer of that newspaper and they are not his own. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well but, Mr. Speaker, I've never yet seen a ruling with all due respect in this House where you have at any time stopped anybody from quoting newspapers or magazines articles or anything on that --it goes on every day. MR. SPEAKER: I will disagree with you. I have brought it to the attention of the mem bers on several occasions.

MR . HRYHORCZUK: Okay, Sir, I shan't quote from the paper but I shall refer to it. I would also like to refer to an

article which appeared in the Tribune again - and I'm not going to read it, Mr. Speaker --on March 12th, and I would suggest to the honourable members of this committee that they read that article, and again, it's the Tribune and again, what I have read out of the first

article iscrnfirmrl in this one, three weeks later. And I say that the gov ernment had a hand in this Bill but did not have the courage to do what it would have done otherwise. (Interjection) We never appointed a commission and we never went out for any kudos on this point at the expense of a lot of our people of this province. We made it a Private Members' Bill and it so stayed as a Private Members' Bill. What I'm getting at here, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a Private Members' Bill in the full sense of the word because the government did take sides on it.

We've been told that this commission was appointed by the Legislature. Certainly it was appointed by the Legislature, every commission is appointed by the Legislature, but a government stands behind such appointments. Aside from that, Mr. Speaker, I think that there are more important matt!'r that this Bill affects than where the government stands or does not stand in the matter, and that is to whether the margarine should be allowed to be colored yellow by the manufacturer. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I've read that re port and the report of course doesn't give us all the facts and information that I would have liked to see in it. There's a lot of surmise, and I don't think it was necessary to surmise, I think that the facts, if they were properly looked for and the time was taken, could have been obtained and we could have had a factual discussion on that report instead of on the basis of surmise. There were only two days of hearings and they took place in the City of Winnipeg. Now the people that are mostly affected by this parti cular question, Mr.

Speaker, are a long ways from Winnipeg, and surely they were entitled to be heard and it should have been arranged that the commission would sit at least in a few of the outlying areas in the province, which wasn't done. The housewives, the consumers had an excellent opportunity to come in and present their views with considerable force, and reading the presentations and reading the report I find that the consumer or the housewife who wants her margarine colored is co:o.cerned with two things.

It's a messy proposition which she does n't want to have to do, and it's cheap, therefore they sl;lould be entitled to purchase it. And somewheres or another some type of a principle enters into this picture, and you see it's a matter of principle that the housewife should have the right to purchase whatever she wants in a certain form or shape or color or package and so forth and so on. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have very serious doubts whether there is any principle involved in this whole matter.

I say that the matter of principle that has been talked about so much is just a figment of the imagination, and I'll say that during the past 10 years or so our housewives in the Province of Manitoba and elsewhere have been brainwashed by the amount of publicity that this matter has received. We Page 1586 March 15th, 1960

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) ••••• don't hear the housewife complaining about the color of other fats such as Crisco, Lard, Shortening, so forth and so on. These are used in baking and cook ing, and furthermore yellow colored margarine isn't going to make your c«ke or anything else more tastier or a different color after it's been placed in there as one of the ingredients. The amount of margarine that's used for table spread is negligible. We have cheeses, cheesespreads of a variety of colors and they use it in the color that they buy it.

We hear no complains about it not being yellow or a standard color of yellow, and I would say, Mr. Speaker, that as far as these other fats and cheeses are concerned, they're just about as much of them used for spreads as there are of margarine. Then why put the finger on margarine, and I reiterate, Mr. Speaker, that the only reason is because of the propaganda, the continuous publicity that this particular question has received and no other reason - none whatsoever.

If there are a few people that like colored margarine as a spread there are so few that it's insignificant and yet the holler -- you would think that every lad,y in the country was wanting this spread colored yellow so that she could use it as a spread. Now is it messy? Well, Mr, Speaker, I can think of many household duties that are considerably messier than that, a great many of them. And in this day and age, Mr. Speaker, when the lady of the house has all the appliances and all the conveniences that give her so much leisure time, and not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but look at all the canned goods, semi-prepared and prepared food that is being purchased by our house wives today. Frankly I don't know how they keep themselves occupied. Mr. Speaker, I am a married man, I have been married for over thirty years. A MEMBER: You're in trouble now. MR. PAULLEY: You're staying in town tonight, boy. You better throw your bat in first. MR. HRYHORCZUK: I say again and I mean it quite seriously, quite seriously, that as far as the housewives of today are concerned , the house duties are negligible compared with what they were 25 years ago.

And whether you think that's a joke, and whether the ladies of the country would not like to hear that statement, I think that the women are fair-minded enought to admit it themselves, and if there are any henpecked husbands in here that don't think so, well, that's their business.

But frankly, if these ladies who insist that this is a messy job, if they knew what a far mer's wife and his family have to go through in order to produce the cream that is turned into butter I am quite sure that as they have come to support this bill, so they would come in num bers to oppose it, because I have a lot of faith in the sincerity and the good judgment of our women. It is simply because they do not know what these farm women have to go through in order to receive the mere source of sustenance, just enough to keep the families together. And why is it so, Mr. Speaker?

It is so because the vast majority of the people who produce the cream that is used to make butter are resident on marginal and sub-marginal lands; and if I have my figures correct I would say that there were over 20,000 farmers affected -- I mean of this particular group. Now what happens on these farms. They can't raise grain, sufficient quantities and with a big enough yield to make it possible for them to make a living from that source. They just can't do it. They have to go into what we call mixed farming or diversified farming; and even there they are limited by their land holdings.

They have to keep a limited number of cows, some hogs and chickens, and all these have to be fed and looked after, not on a 4o-hour week, not a five-day week, but a seven-day week which ties them down to the farm every day of the week. And they, no more than their sisters elsewhere, like a little bit of leisure time and would like to be able to relax, but they are not in a position to do so. Now how is this going to affect them. No, coming back, Mr.

Speaker, I mentioned that the housewife or the consumer was con cerned with price and we hear a great deal that this is a poor family's spread-- the margarine; but I want to say this that if this Bill goes through those families who cannot afford to buy but ter but have to buy margarine are not going to be helped by the passage of this bill. I venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that if all else is equal that the price of margarine will go up, and I think that I can depend on the commission's report for that statement. Is it going to increase the sales of margarine and reduce the sales of butter?

From that report it would seem to me that it may, it may increase the sales of margarine and reduce the sales of butter, provided that the price of margarine is not increased. Because what happened in BC when coloring was March 15th, 1960 Page 1587

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) ••••• allowed? The sales of margarine actually dropped. Now the report doesn't say whether the price went up or went down in BC but it does say that the price, or the sale of margarine is regulated by the price. Therefore I think we.can assume that the price of margarine went up in BC since the sales were lowered. So what has the housewife or the poor person who is dependent on this type of spread to gain--nothing, Mr. Speaker, absolutely nothing. If it means an increase in the price of margarine they are defeating their own purpose.

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's all that the manufacturer wants, because he is eager to sen· a given quantity of margarine at a higher price just by merely throwing some colour into it--he's better off than have to increase his sales and produce more margarine to make the same profit. So in the end, Mr. Speaker, I think the passage of this bill will help no one. It will help no one. But I do think, Mr. Speaker, that it will hurt a lot of people including those that want the passage of this bill.

And I'm sure that one of the main things, or one of the reasons or factors that we should always keep in mind is to whether a bill is going to do some good or is it going to hurt somebody un necessarily. And I say to you that as far as I am concerned my sincere convictions are that the passage of this bill is not going to help anybody but is going to hurt a great many of the people, including some of those that are supporting the bill right now. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Osborne. MR. 0. BAIZLEY (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to enter this urban-rural war with everybody shooting from the lip, and if I could beg the indulgence of the House for just a few moments,I would like to give a demonstration as to possibly why the consumer would be very happy to see margarine colored, Now, you will have to forgive me, Sir, because I have never done this before. However, I did try and come prepared. I unders tand that you have to keep an antiseptic-sanitary. I can't agree with the previous speaker when he says that our darlings in the kitchen today have nothing to do.

It must have been quite a while since he has been left at home with three or four youngsters to look after, mix the margarine, cook the meals, do the diapers and carry on the other chores and then--whoops forgot the gloves- (Interjection)-.;;-yes, I should do that--Oh, I might not be that messy. --(lnterjection)- You're not just kidding. Whoops! Actually this is no trouble at all but it would be so much easier I think if the coloring were in it when it was manufactured. No, I can't bite it. Will you help me?

While I'm getting a little help I might say that this particular process doesn't appeal to the ladies in the kitchen whether they're in Winnipeg, Timbuctoo or Lac du Bonnet. A MEMBER : •••• or Ethelbert. MR. BAIZLEY: •• or probably Ethelbert. This pile of telegrams is from a rural con stituency and I notice that they are all signed by the ladi�s in that constituency asking their honourable member to support the margarine bill. How are we doing? MR. OSCAR F. BJORNS ON (Lac du Bonnet): Not very good. MR.

BAIZLEY: I understand that this doesn't take any time or canse any confusion in the home. --(Interjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! I might say that we have had active debates in the House before but this is the first time we've had "action" debates, and does the honourable member have permission to ••.. ? Agreed. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Speaker, I'd suggest that he should have gone with that before the commission. MR .

BAIZLEY: Well I think coming before the members of the House, the honourable members will realize that in thinking about the consumer, we've worried about the dairy in terests who seem to be protected pretty well with a floor price for their butter; we worry about all the money that the margarine manufacturer is going to have; and we don't give any con sideration to this messy unnecessary business, and I say this, that if this is what the ladies of our province want --and it's the ladies who are involved particularly--let's give it to them. Thanks, Mr. Speaker. . MR. BJORNSON: Mr.

Speaker, as I was inadvertently drawn into this demonstration I don't want any of the members to think that my clumsiness had anything to do with where the yellow is going but I think I can demonstrate to you where some of the action on this is going. These are telegrams that I received today asking for my support in--for coloring margarine. And in the mail just after I had received these telegrams I also received a letter from the Page 1588 March 15th, 1960

(Mr . Bjornson, · cont'd.) ••••• f�ming community, and with your permission I would just like to read what they say and -this is signed by an equal number of farmers and their wives, as there are telegrams, and this all came to me while we were discussing this just a few moments ago . I'n not going to read where it's from, I'm going to read the contents. "Dear Sir: We, the undersigned, understand that the Bill on the coloring of margarine will come up for debate and probably for a vote either for or against the coloring of this product.

We, the undersigned, would like to ask you as our representative to vote against the coloring of margarine" and then in brackets (at least not the same colour as butter) . We feel and are convinced that in the province it would not be of the best interest to the farmer who is producing butterfat or the public in general as consumers.

We feel that margarine colored the same shade as butter would be an accelerated temptation for the manufacturer of margarine to pawn off colored margarine as butter." Now I'm not going to belabor you as to the pros and cons of coloring margarine as you can see I'm having enough trouble in my constituency with my conscience and with the pressure that I have had put on on both sides, from the farming community and from the housewives. I have already been threatened with two hundred women from Elliot Lake coming up here to see me about that little bitty affair that's going across the river from us .

Now I don't take this as a threat, this is asking for support; but in all fair play how can you balance one against the other and that's what has happened to me this afternoon. I would like to take this stand that I would have liked to have had this gotten rid of 11 years ago but we're faced with it and no matter which way we vote, whether it's political expediency or not as has been mentioned, where is your conscience . Now I le ave it to you as far as a rural member is concerned there should be no doubt in his mind whatsoever, particularly when he has been a farmer's son.

I will admit I saw the error of my ways at three years old and sold my stock and got out of the farming business, but I was born on the farm , and I have many farmers who have supported me in getting into this Legislature. So have I had many of these women who were active in my support, and I ask you where is the new MLA for Lac du Bonnet going to place his vote? In all fairness, and I say this quite seriously, that I am hoping and praying for a compromise.

Something that will at least take some of the yellow that's starting to run my back here when I think of one side against the other, and if the yellow is going to go any where I don't want it to show outside my coat. I can't tell Y0\1 how I'm going to vote as yet; I may have had my firm conviction but I have tossed and rolled· in the bed -- and this is the sort of thing that doesn't help me make up my mind. Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker . MR . A. J. REID (Kildonan): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to make a few brief comments on this margarine question.

It reminds me of the song you hear on the radio "I wonder where the yellow went" but nevertheless we've had quite a few members speak on it. Some very eloquen tly and we've had a visual demonstration this afternoon, and I think were all to its advantages, but I think it's unfortunate when this Bill was presented 11 years ago that at that time the coloring wasn't included because· right now we know the bearing that margarine has on the dairy industry being' uncolored. But it's true, as many of the members have mentioned, we don't know what bearings it's going to have when it's going to be colored.

It's true that the people who buy it now whether it's colored or otherwise for economy, they'll still continue to buy it, but there111 be many people once it's colored to be more presentable that they're going to try it.

Now our greatest fear or the greatest fear of the country members and the dairy industry seems to be that margarine is going to be .substituted for butter and I think -- I'll answer the questions for the'Member for Lac du Bonnet -- I think what we should do is compromise and color it a pale lime green because people eat ice cream of all different colors and there seems to be no objection at all , and I don't think there'll be no objection in the least bit if margarine is colored, not yellow but a pale lime green and the people who use it I think they'll still use it. So I think, Mr .

Speaker, with those brief remarks, I'm sorry that I'm supporting the coloring of margarine because in my constituency I've been put to pressure from different · groups, mostly women's groups, of supporting it, but I think as a compromise if we put that stipulation in to be colored pale green I think it would satisfy everybody. MR. SPEAKER: Are you read y for the question? MR . K. ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Hamiota that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. March 15th, 1960 Page 1589

MR . SPEAKER: Second reading on the motion of the Honourable Member from Port age la Prairie for second reading of Bill No. 82,

an Act to amend the Dental Association Act. The Honourable Mem ber for St. Vital. MR. F. GROVES (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I would like to beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Second reading on the motion of the Honourable Mem ber for Brokenhead,

an Act to amend the Public Schools Act for second reading of Bill No .83, be now read a second tim e. I might say that there was objection raised to this motion and I am prepared to give a ruling on it. On Friday, March 11th, the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, Mr. Schreyer, mov ed that Bill No. 83,

an Act to amend the Public School Act (No .1 ), be now read a second time whereupon the Honourable the Attorney-General raised a point of order as to the admissability of this motion on the grounds that involved expenditure of public money; it will .accordingly require a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. At that time I advised the House that I would take the matter under advisement. In light of

Section 482 of the Public Schools Act which provides that in part as follows: 482 . Subsection (1) from and out of the Consolida� ted Funds with money authorized by

an Act of the Legislature to be so paid and applied, the Provincial Treasurer on the written requisition of the Minister, shall pay to each school divi sion on behalf of the division and of the school districts included therein, the grants for which provision is made in this section, that is to say. Now to quote 482 (1) (

b) Toward payment of the approved expenses incurred in each year by the Board of the division and the Board of each school district included in the division for the purpose hereafter in this clause mentioned, but subject to subsection (4) such amounts as may be prescribed in the regulation but not exceed ing in respect of any such approved expenditure the following percentages thereof. 482 (1) (b) (1) (v) 50% of the cost of the admin istration, also in the light that the Manitoba Regulations 7458 being a regulation under the Public Schools Act respecting School Divisions. Regulation 16 (2) (b) (

i) reads as follows: 2. from the amount payable to a division under subsection 1, eac h division, each district in the division except a closed school district shall be entitled to receive in respect of each year the lesser of: (b) 50% of the actual cost to the district in that year of the following items of approved expenses for administratio n. Clause (i) . Sal ary and expenses of the Secretary-Treasurer and other officials of the district.

In my opinion the motion before the House deals with an amendment to the Public Schools Act 1, involves expen ditures of public funds and requires a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. Accordingly I rule that the motion is out of order. I might say that Manitoba Rule No . 54 gov erns the Act of Anticipation. I must rule the motion out of order . MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Speaker, I'm of course willing at all times to accede to your ruling in that it is made in an impartial manner . Am I out of order now if I just make one statement? MR. SPEAKER: No.

I might say that the ruling of the Speaker is not debatable. Second reading of Bill No . 93. The Honourable Member for Brokenhead. Mr. Schreyer presented for second reading Bill No. 93,

an Act to validate By-law No. 1422 of the Rural Municipality of North Kildonan. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. John'

s) presented for second reading Bill No .80,

an Act to amend The Labour Relations Act. MR. ORLIKOW : Mr. Speaker, the Labour Relations Act in the office consolidation which I have in front of me is headed "An Act to Promote Equitable Relations between Employ er and Employees and to facUitate the Just Settlement of Disputes Between Them" . Mr . Speaker, like most acts, the Act as it is presently written has been objected to in various parts by representatives of Labour and representatives of Management.

I am suggesting in this Bill three changes, the only changes which I feel are necessary, and I am certain that other members in the House could think of other changes which they would think should be in and representatives of Labour and Management , I am sure, would agree or disagree with these and others which might be suggested. I have picked just three which I think are of some im portance, and the elimination of which I think would help to promote better relationships be tween Labour and Management. Now it is not my intention, Mr. Speaker, to make a long Page 1590 March 15th, 1960

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd;) ••••• escalation of these. I want to deal with them very briefly. The first change which I am suggesting we make is the elimination of

Section 5 (

a) of the present Act. This is a provision which deals with the question of trespass. Now, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion there is no need for this provision because trespass is now covered by the common law of this country. If it is claimed by employers or anybody else that people, union representatives, or ·anybody else is trespassing, they have recourse to the normal pro cedures. They can sue for damages and take any other procedures which are, in their opinion necessary. There is no need for this to be in the Labour Relat�ons Act.

In my opinion this creates a double jeopar<Ya double penalty because not only -- well the Honourable the Attorney General shakes his head and says "no" -- this is my opinion and this is the opinion of the lab our people with whom I have discussed this matter. First of all, I question whether the

interpretation put on the matter of trespass by many employers is a correct one, and I am hoping that labour representatives will actually test a case in court. I don't believe, Mr. Speaker, that if a man works for a company in some isolated area and lives in the only place he can, in a bunkhouse supplied by the company, that he therefore gives up the right to have any visitors except those visitors whom the company first screens and decides he is entitled to have.

I think that a man living in a bunkhouse, whether it be at Thompson, at Kelsey, at Grand Rapids, or in the bunkhouses that may be supplied by a paper company or a pulp com pany, should be restricted in their rights as to who their visitors may be. But this is some thing which the courts, I hope, 'w ill be called to decide in the not too distant future. All I am suggesting, Mr. Chairman, is that the rights of the employer, of the owner of property, are already covered by the common law and there is no need for

section 5 (

a) in the Labour Rela tions Act; and that's why I am suggesting that it come out. The second thing I am suggesting, Mr. Speaker, is that we add a clause having to do with the voluntary deduction of union dues.. I want members of the House, Mr. Speaker, to make note that what I am suggesting is the voluntary deduction of union dues. I am not sug gesting that union members be considered in the same category, for example, as members of the Bar Society or of members of the Medical Association.

They, of course, couldn't practice for one day in this province unless they paid the fees, the dues which are required by their professional organization. They are in a preferred class along with some other groups like the one which I used to belong to, The Pharmaceutical Association. I am not suggesting that this right be given to union members. I don't suggest, not because I don't think they are en titled to it, but because I am being practical and I doubt that this House be considered as sec ond-class citizens , as good as teachers; and the clause which I am suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, is copied almost word for word from the Public Schools Act, as amended in a Bill introduced in the House in 1956 by the then Minister of Education, Mr. Miller, and members can find - it is now

section -- as I read it, it is

Section 137 of the Act, clause 13 , sub-section 2.

Here is how it is in the Teachers' Society Act, and as the members will read my Bill they will see it's almost word for word, and I'll read this part, and I quote: "Any teacher may, in each year, file with the board of the district by which the teacher is employed, in a form approved by the board, a request that the annual dues of the teacher to the Manitoba Teachers' Society for that year be deducted from the salary payable to the teacher for that year, and paid to the Society as provided in sub-section 3." And 3 says as follows, and I quote: "Where a teacher has filed a request under sub-section 2, the board of the district shall deduct in such number of equal installments as the Board determines, and shall pay over to the Manitoba Teachers' Society the sum of the amount so deducted in installments payable not less frequently than once in each school term.

" So, Mr. Speaker, what I am suggesting is that union members who wish to have their union dues deducted by the employer and transmitted to the union of their choice shall be able to do this simply by signing a proper authorization form and submitting it to their employer. I am asking no more than the same rights which a Legislature has given to the teachers. Now the third proposal I make, Mr. Speaker, has to do with the rights of employees who have been dismissed because of union activity. I mentioned this with regard to another matter yesterday. We have had an increasing number of these cases.

I want to just refer to a few cases which have been brought to my attention without, at this time, giving the names of the companies concerned, because some of them may not have been disposed with. l only use March 15th, 1960 Pag;e 1591

(Mr. Orlikow, cont' d.) ••• them as illustrations of what has happened and what. can happen. Ca se (

a) which I have , the foreman told the workers that if anybody joined the union they would be fired, One was fired after -- the notation I have is that after the Deputy Minister dis cussed it with the company the matter was rectified. They don't always work out that well, Mr. Speaker. Second, Ca se (b), after the company found out men were interested in the union a no tice was posted that people would be fired. The Minister inves tigated but he was not able to get proof. During the organizing period the company offered individual s rai'ses if they promised not to join the union.

Some men who were known to have joined the union had wage s reduced. Case number (c) , the foreman threatened to fire men who joined unions . Case (d) , men who signed applications were fired. The Labour Board, I think, is stili processi ng thi s case. An important point I think, and bears precisely on the suggestion I am making, the union says that they have no money to take this matter to court.

In other words, even if the Labour Relations Board holds a hearing and finds that in their opinion that the men were fired because of joining the union and if the Labour Board gives permissi on to the union to prosecute , to take the case to court, the union simply hasn 't the money to follow this proc edure. Next case , men were laid off because they joined the union . Following inve stigation they were reinstated and the pay was made up; but later they were laid off, supposedly because of lack of work. Another case, the men were threatened after they joined the union. All the men were laid off.

The Board apparently expressed amazement but so far nothing has been done. Here is another case where men were seen to enter the union hall . The men were told they were fired and then were paid to listen to a two-hour lecture by the employer on the advisability of their not joining the union. Here is another case where two lawyers went into a plant and took affidavits from a number of employees to get them to withdraw from the union, and the lawy ers have admitted that thi s is what they did. Here is another case where the whole staff was laid off after notice of certification was posted. Mr.

Speaker, I could get 50 cases like this . Now it' s true , as the Ministe r said yester day, that where a complaint is made with the Labour Relations Board that the Board will hold a hearing, and if the Board finds that there is a basis for complaint the Board will give the union the right to prosecute . But, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to this House that this is not the proper pro cedure . If in the opinion of the Labour Relations Board the law of the province has been violated, then surely the Board should be given the right to issue an order ordering the employer to desist because the law has been violate d. MR .

CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I don't think they judge on the basis of law. They just hear the case to see whether there is any substantiation for the charge at all . They don't judge it on the basis of the law that is involved in the case. MR. ORLIKOW: I am not suggesting that they are a legal entity . What I am suggesting is that if they find no evidence the case is dropped and the case is not proceeded with so. In fact ·they are acting in -- I am not a lawyer but I would suggest that they are acting in a, if not a semi judicial, at least in a preliminary to a judicial investigation .

I am suggesting that they have the right to issue an order . I hav en't put it in this Bill , but in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, where an order is ignored then the board ought to prosecute . I want to tell this House , Mr. Speaker , and suggest to the Minister that this third

section of my Bill is not original with me . This third

section of my Bill are the new provisions of the Quebec Labour Relations Act as adopted this year by the Quebec Government. And I am going to close, Mr. Speaker, by suggesting to this House and to this government that I would hope that the Conse rvative Government of Manitoba would be at least as progressive as the Union Nat ional Government of the Provinc e of Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: �e you ready for the question? MR . R. G. SMELLIE (Birtle - Russell) : Mr., Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honour able Member for St. James, that this debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carrie d. continued on next page Page 1592 March 15th, 1960

MR. J. COW AN (Winnipeg Centre) pres ented Bill No. 96,

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate the Winnipeg Board of Trade , for second reading. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on this bill. The flrst thing is that it is quite unique in that I think we are amending

an Act that has been on the statute books for the longest time of any statute in this province that has never been amended before . This Board of Trade Act has been on the statute books of Manitoba since March 8, 1873 -- 73 years and a week ago last Tuesday . It is of interest that on that particular day the journals of the House read in part as follows -- it is of interest I think to this House because we are concerned, too, with acts dealing with the City of Winnipeg just as that House was concerned with acts dealing with Winnipeg -- and I read from the journals , page 68, dated March 8, 187 3: "Mr.

Speaker informed the House that on Thursday evening he had been allured from his house by the false pretense of his medical services being required by a patient who, it was alleged, was supposed to be dying; and that when he had been taken some distance he was rushed upon by a number of men, knocked down, and otherwise ill-treated. He said he mentioned this as he had reason to believe the outrage was committed upon him because , as Speaker of the House, he had made a certain ruling in the case of the Bill to incorporate the Town of Winnipeg which was distasteful to certain parties in that town.

On motion of Honourable Mr. Boyd, seconded by Mr. Hay, that

whereas this House has been informed of the fact that the Honourable Speaker of this House was on Thursday night, the 6th of March, under the pretext of being· called as a medical man to visit the dying bed of a most respe ctable lady, and that on his way to the hou se of said lady he was treated in the most cowardly and dastardly manner; resolved therefore that this House learns with a feeling of deep indignation that its Speaker has fallen the victim to a most cowardly and vile outrage because of the discharge of a constitutional duty, and hopes and respe ctfully urges that the govetninent will take means to vindicate the majesty of the law." We would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that when you make a ruling that you wouldn't befall the same course of events that happened to the Speaker in 1873 . As a matter of fact, I read elsewhere that the Speaker was actually tarred and feathered and the Legislature decided to offer a reward of $1000, but they never brought the culprits to justice . I think it is also of interest, the fact that in 187 2 Winnipeg also tried to become i.J:?.corpor ated as a village but it wasn't successful; and again at this ses sion in 1873 it wasn't succes sful.

On Thursday night there had been an amendment that it be called the City of Garry and that was defeated; then there was an amendment that it be called the City of Selkirk and that was defeat ed; and it was sent on to the Legislative Council. At that time they had two bodies in this House . They had the Legislative Asse mbly in the Upper House and the Legis lative Council of seven persons .

The Legislative Council didn't agree with the amendment that it be called the City of Selkirk and it was sent back to the House, and the Speaker, it says, "being applied to for his decision on the amendment proposed by the Legislative Council, ruled that they were uncon stitutional and could not be accepted by this House"; so Winnipeg wasn't incorporated at this sess ion in 1873, but in November, 187 3, they had the fourth sessi on of the Legislature in Man itoba. It lasted about a week and during that week the City of Winnipeg was incorporated.

Actually it was on November 8, 1873, so you will see that the Board of Trade is older than the City of Winnipeg itself. Another interesting factor is that in Winnipeg they had their first election on January 5th, 187 4, and at that election there were 388 on the voters' list and 562 voted -- quite different to what happens today. One other thing that might be of interest is that the 24 members of the Legislature and the 7 members of the Legislative Council each received an annual payment of $300 . The Legis lature, too, was held in the home of A.G.B.

Bannatyne near the corner of Main and Bannatyne in 1871-2-3, and then in 1874 it was held in the Court House on the east side of Main Street, a little bit north of Bannatyne Avenue . The Bill before us is -- this amendment is brought before us to enable the Winnipeg Board of Trade, more commonly known as the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, to apply for a liq uor licence .

The Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce are moving into new premis es·i n the old Great West Life Building, and they propose not only to have their offices there but they propose to have clubrooms, and this particular Act doesn't give them a liquor licence but it give s them the right to apply for a liquor licence the same as other corporations which have been incorporated for three years or more under the laws of the Province of Manitoba . The Winnipeg Chamber of March 15th, 1960 Page 1593

(Mr. Cowan, cont'd) ..•.• Commerce also makes use of a Charter which was is sued under the Boards of Trade Act passed by the Federal Government in 1874, but this Manitoba Act has been kep alive and now they wish to make use of it. The other references in this proposed bill are to deal with the question of changing the name o:( the Town of Winnipeg to the City, and eliminating any chance that the name might be changed by virtue of a change in the nam e of the City of Winnipeg.

You will note that at the time we mentioned there was quite a dispute on as to what the name should be, so that was evidently the reason it was put in· the original Act, that in case the name of the town was changed or the city was changed, then the name of the Board of Trade would be changed accordingly. · Mr . Speaker prese nted the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . W. H. HAMILTON (Dufferin) pres ented Bill No . 97,

an Act respecting The Town of Carman, for second reading. Mr . Speaker, approximately two years ago the Town of Carman had the misfortune to lose their skating rink when it collapsed from the excessive weight of snow. Now the Dufferin Agricultural Society are laying plans for the construction of an arena and fair buildi!i.g and this Bill will enable the ratepayers of the town to vote approximately $60 ,0 00 as their share of the cost of the construction. The Rural Municipality of Dufferin are also planning to contribute a share . Mr . Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No . 98,

an Act to provide for certain exceptions to the Lord' s Day Act (Canada). The Honourable Member for Osborne. Stand? MR . ROB UN: Mr. Speaker, instead of having it stand, proceed with the next order of business, and if the honourable member can be found we might ask him to proceed because this Bill has been on the Order Paper for some time, and it is our hope that we would get them launched -- (Interjection)-- Oh, well maybe we can launch it right now. MR. BAIZLEY presented Bill No . 98 for second reading. Mr . Speaker, I am very pleased that this particular Act is not slippery and it is not controversial either.

The purpo se of this Act is to permi t certain exceptions to The Lord's Day Act (Canada), to make it permis sible for certain activities on Sunday afternoon between the hours of 1. 30 and 5. 30 p. m. Now this Bill deals with the whole province and not just the City of Winnipeg. It is superior to proposals of the city that would permit council to authorize sports without a referendum . Mr . Speaker, I believe you will agree that we live in a rapidly changing world. We do not live in the same manner as we did even 10 years ago . That• s the Christian way of life.

It has to be constantly re-inte rpreted to fit the circumstances in which we find ourselves . This legislation is similar to the Ontario Act which has worked effectively for some time. Now the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. As Christians . we are free of narrow Sunday regulations; we are not bound to live as did our forefathers; and yet there is one type of activity on Sunday that we retain and e;J.joy and we must continue to retain and enjoy and cultivate, and that is worship . Mr . Speaker, this Act is permi ssive legislation only.

It does not force Sunday activities on anyone but allows people, by their free vote , to determine what Sunday afternoon activities, if any, they want. There never has been any doubt among Christians that if we are to live as our Master wanted us to live, then we must gather together one with another for worship . If all men viewed life from the altar of Christ we would n't need laws of any kind, let alone Sunday laws. Certainly some activities on Sunday are fine. There is nothing wrong with throwing a ball or watching a game or a performance on Sunday.

I feel that there is need for wholesome types of activities on Sunday afternoon in a city such as this, and in other communities of the province . This Bill would permit the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra- or the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and other such cultural and artistic groups to operate . The purpose of this Act is to permit any non-profit organ ization to provide or produce a public game or contest or p�rform ance, either athletic, cultural, artistic, at which an admission is charged, and that has been specified in the by- law.

A municipal council would not enact a by-law unless the clerk of the municipality received a petition from approximately 20% or greater of the resident electors. The eligible people to sign this petition would be individuals whose name appeared on the revised list of voters or electors of the municipality and they would have to specify the public game, contest, or performance which in their opinion should be made lawful. A by-law is submitted Page 1594 March 15th, 1960

·(Mr . Baizley, cont'd) .••.• to the resident electors and approved if a majority of the resident electors vote in favour of the by-law. The approval of this by-law would not permit horse racing, boxing, wrestling or judo or where a by-law is enacted the public games and contest and performances that they would authorize are only permi tted if living persons take part or perform . This would mean that film shows, etc. would not be permitted. Now, Mr . Speaker, no matter what type of laws we make we are going to have a Christian Sunday if we put forth a real effort to live as Chris tians .

Authorities are in agreement that it is much better to have organized activities for people to attend than to have restless individuals wandering around wondering what to do with themselves. This Act is capable of enforcement since it permi ts a free expression of the will of the people and furthermore it brings Federal legislation up to da te . In my opinion it is a very fair bill deserving of your support. :MR. W. G. MARTIN (st. Matthews) : Mr . Speaker, I would like to have something to say concerning this Bill. One aspect of it deals of course with Sunday sports .

That is a very con troversial question; it has very many advocates. On the other hand there are very many people who are opposed to any slackening of the laws that govern the Lord's Day, and I would like to say, Mr . Speaker, that these people do not cons titute the kill-joys of socie ty. They believe that Sunday is a day different from other days and that the reverent observance of the Lord' s Day is a vital factor in strengthening the bulwarks of the well-being and security of our civil iz ations . The other day, Mr . Speaker , there was an

article in the Free Press --you notice I hesitated a little bit when I say something in the Free Press -- or any paper -- but it reported a speech which was given by Mr . Jack Perrin, the owner and general manager of the Winni peg warriors and delivered before the Civics Bureau of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commer ce . He did admit that he was voicing his opinion and seeking to stir up discussion, and he did both. And here is the glaring headline that drew it to my attention: "Only the Bigoted Oppose Sunday Sport - Perrin . Many ministers just worried about church collection plate, official claims.

Only those groups which are selfish, thoughtless and bigoted object to Sunday spor ts, said Jack Perrin, Pres ident and General Manager of the Winnip eg Hockey Club. He said in speaking to the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce that most objections come from clergymen who seem to want to restrict Sunday activity because ...• :MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George} : Mr . Speaker, the member from Ethelbert Plains wasn't allowed to read from the newsp aper. I don't think the member for St. Matthews should be either . :MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, I' m just reading a quotation from a man who was speaking on a matter whi ch is not before this House at the pres ent time , on the general princip les of Sunday sports. :MR. SPEA KER : I think it would be just as well if he didn't read the newsp a per. HON. STERI JNG R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry) : Mr . Speaker, now on the poin t of order, the point that I raised was this, that members may not read from newspapers whi ch are commenting on conduct of members or of the House . Now that is a far different point from what my honourable friend the Member from st. Matthews is reading now.

He's reading a newspaper comment on some other matter entirely, not connected with the proceed ings of the debate of this House or with the members of the House . He's making reference in some outside matter and I suggest that there is a great difference between the two poin ts . :MR. SPEAKER: Order . As I read the -- heard the quotation it was dealing with the matter of someone 1 s opinion on Sunday sports was it not, and that is out of order. :MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to take is sue with you but I' m sure that we have never had that ruling in this House before.

We have had rulings, Sir, and I say this in all respect to you, in respect of quoting editorial opinions !:l.nd I think that within that realm you're perfectly correct, but I think in this particular case and in cases where we're referring to news articles which are not quoting editorial opini ons, it has always been permitted in this House . And I respe ctfully suggest, Mr . Speaker, that you consider the difference between the types of newsp aper articles . :MR. SPEAKER: I would suggest that the Honourable Member for st. Matthews didn't read the article. MR.

HRYHORCZUK: ....•.. with all due reference I'm not in the habit of getting up in a matter of this nature . March 15th, 1960 Page 1595

MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, recently there was this statement made that those who are opposed to Sunday sports are bigoted and thoughtless and are taking that attitude, bigoted and thoughtless and selfish. But of course that stand and that statement is just unadul terated nonsense .

The stand of the clergy in opposition to Sunday sports is not beca use they're afraid that the sports will rob the collection plates, but beca use they consider that this day is a day set apart to provide full and unhampered opportunity for citizens to focus their attention upon those ideals and principles that are the bedrock of our democra tic way of life. It was also said at that time that the clergy are seeking to set up a monopoly. Well, Mr. Speaker, the speaker on this occasi on in voicing his opinion should thank his lucky stars that there is a

section of commu nity leaders who are pledged to uphold and safeguard those ideals which are the guarantee of our freedom and which we are all so very ready to accept, and which some accept without any sense of gratitude . I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, when Jack Matheson, Sports Editor of the Tribune, exchanged pulpits with a United Church Minister at Hamiota and had a taste of what the clergyman' s life is, that he would not subscribe to the opinion that only the bigoted and the thoughtless and the selfish are opposed to Sunday sport.

He real ized in that week of interchange that the clergymen are not sentimental idealists with their heads in the clouds and their feet not firmly planted upon the earth. The other day, in the Manitoba Bonspiel, a Chaplains' rink captured one of the coveted trophies and defeated an erstwhile MacDonald Brier Championship rink, and so the world knows now that the preachers can be effective in a dual role, namely in the Pulpit Spiel and in a Bonspiel .

My friend in speaking on that oc casion didn't charge the clergy with being a profit-making organization because he intimated they were dependent upon the collection plate, and the owner and general manager of the Warriors doesn't operate on that bas is . The risk would be too great and that's why he wouldn't be satisfied to pass the collection plate at the Sunday games; he wouldn 't take a chance and he would prefer to charge admissio ns . But her e's the crux of the situation, Mr.

Speaker; when the owner of the Winnipeg Warriors was asked whether he believed in a wide open Su..11day, his reply was •lb.e didn't see why anything that was good and proper from Monday to Saturday wouldn 't be just as good and proper on Sunday ." Mr.

Speaker, that' s the brand of philosophy that lies back of this increasing demand for Sunday sports, and I for one cannot understand why anyone can accept the benefits and privileges of a well ordered society such as we have here in Can ada, and who must realize if he has any capacity for reflective thought, that these privileges and benefits are to a large degree due to the fact that in this land we have for long past, recognized the sovereignty of moral principles .

How such a man could take that stand and display a callous disregard for the san ctity of the day which for generations has been set apart for the honouring of those principles is something beyond my comprehension . Now the Bill before us , Mr. Speaker, is concerned in this sport aspect or with non-profit organizations, and I can See that a battle royal can wage around those two little words 'non profit'. You ask yourself, what do you mean non-profit? Well, I looked it up and profit means for pecuniary gain and non-profit then means not for pecunia ry gain.

For instance the Winni peg Hockey Club is organi zed on the idea of pecunia ry gain and for that purpose, therefore. it would not come within the confines of this Bill . It's just an ordinary joint stock company, . shareholders, the right to declare dividends, a commerc ial enterprise providing entertainment, privately owned, privately held, and the owner able to sell the franchise to any other city if he so desire s; and if he thinks perhaps sometimes that the box-office returns weren't too good on Sunday he wouldn't hesitate to sell that franchise.

On the other hand, amateur clubs are non-profit organizations . A week ago in the Winnipeg Arena, on a week ago last Sunday, 6, 000 people assembled to see two teams of the Winnipeg Junior Hockey League contesting for the right to represent M!!llitoba for the Memorial Cup which is emblema tic of the Junior Amateur Hockey Championship of Can ada, and so this so-ca lled non-profit organization, amateur team, is closely allied with a profit organization and is sponsored by a profes sional organization .

For instance , recently a member of one of the teams of the Amateur Junior Hockey League was suspended for an infraction of the rules, and I notice in the news column, the news of a sports writer of I believe the Free Press, referring to the item said that Mr. Jack Perrin, the owner of that club and the owner of the Warriors was thinking of appea ling. Last Sund a y afternoon you had a double-header -- two games for the price of one -- or both game$ on the same bill of fare; on the same bill of fare you had your professional team , the Page 1596 March 15th, 1960

(Mr. Martin, cont' d) •••.• Warriors I think playing Edmonton, and the Winnipeg Maroons play ing a Saskatchewan team for the Allan Cup competition emblematic of the Senior Amateur Hock ey Championsbi p of Canada. Now the owner ri. the Winnipeg Warriors has said that there's no distinction between amateur and professional sport if both charge admission, and he adde d, " Do not be hoodwinked by any inferior product under the guise of amateurism ." Amateur league games, Mr . Speaker, come within the orbit of this Bill .

I am afraid that the glorious day when games were played for the game's sake is rapidly disappearing, and in many areas of sports commercialism is creeping in. The Winnipeg Football Club -- professional organization you sa y, yes, but a non-profit organization. They are incorporated as such and they are not organized for pecuniary gain. I don't mean by that, Mr. Speaker, they are in the red. When you look at the annual report last year they had a good showing. In fact, you would say it was a very rosy report, but any profit made by the club does not go to swell the money bags of a private promoter or owner.

It goes back into the coffers of the club, and from my point of view, I would say the Winnipeg Football Club comes within the confines of this Bill. Now it has been suggested, and I suppose that is contingent upon their having the right through by-law, it has been suggested that the Winnipeg Football Club may play Sunday games . Well I for one, Mr. Speaker, would regret profoundly that decision. I am a booster for the Bombers. No one watches the Grey Cup Games with more heart-thumping enthusiasm than do I.

And when I go away from town and say I am from Winnipeg, and they say that's the home of the Bombers, my chest measurement swells a full six inches . But there is no need for Sunday games by the Blue Bombers. They are getting big gates and if there is any doubt about that, you, if you're not a season ticket holder, phone up and see what sort of a chance you have for buying a single ticket. They are playing to great crowds and there is ample time for full conference schedules and exhibition games on week days .

If they did as the Warriors are doing now, they wpuld be discriminating against season ticket holders who are opposed to Sunday sport. If I had a season ticket to see the Warriors games I'd be discriminated against now, if I didn't believe in Sunday sports and had to pay for the game whether I went there or not. And the same thing would apply to the football season. I am a firm believer, Mr . Speaker, and no one niore so, in good clean athletics . I consider they strengthen the mental and moral and physical fibre of the individual and they are a splendid thing for the community.

But my point is just this, that when they encroach upon the sanctity of the Lord' s Day, they constitute a serious threat to the survival of that institution which for generations has been a part of our cherished way of life in this ma.intry, and a vital factor in our.community and national well-being. Give the non-profit organization the green light for Sunday and it will not be long before all manner of entertainment and sports organiza tions will be clamouring for the same privilege -- the movie houses, the dance halls, the night clubs.

They'd take a lot of satisfaction when they see a nod given to a piece of legislation lead ing in this direction. Now, Mr . Speaker, there is another thing which should not be overlooked. I am greatly concerned that so many youngsters of tender age are taking an active place in organized Sunday sports in this community. The members this afternoon in their letter boxes had this pamphlet, this letter -- " to whom it may concern," issued by the Greater Winnipeg Minor Hockey Associ ation.

It says: "H istorically the association came into existence in 1956 for the sole purpose of promoting the welfare of the youth of Greater Winnipeg by stimulating their interests in the playing of the game of hockey and to ensure that ea ch minor age boy who desired to participate, would have an opportunity to do so in his community." And further down, "t here is no doubt that juvenile participation in hockey and other sports is a strong factor in moulding the future of any young man or boy who has the good fortune to participate.

Viewed from this angle it is at once obvious that hockey's greatest contribution to the community must be made by way of mass participation during the juvenile years of development, and that the greatest good for the greatest number must be directed to overall participation rather than individual superiority." Well, I cong ratulate any group of public-spirited citizens who are taking such an interest in the juveniles that they are ready to organize sport for them . But, Mr .

Speaker, the re is plenty of opportunity for these clubs and organizations and groups to carry out this work in be half of the juve:rill.es of the commllliitY on week days and also on week nights . On Saturday last March 15th, 1960 Page 1597

(Mr. Martin, cont'd) ••••. I just happened to turn to " Today in Sports", Saturday, Sunday. There was the Warriors Game versus Edmonton; the Maroons versus the Saskatoon Quakers, WHL and Allan Cup . Then you go down, the juvenile -- River Heights versus Bronx Park, Olympic Rink , city finals, 1:30 p. m; Playground C ...,- Silver Heights versus East Elm wood, city finals, Olympic Rink, 2: 45; Bantam A- - West End Memorials versus Kelvin CC, City finals, Olympic Rink . And it didn't end there .

At a time when a lot of these youngsters should have been under the covers and safely in bed -- the MidgetAII Star Game ,· east versus west, Olympi c Rink at 6: 30 p.m.; Juvenile All Star Game, north and south, Olympic Rink at 8:30. And, Mr. Speaker, I .know that there is no admission; there is no remuneration; nobody is paid; it' s all within the bounds of the law; but I contend, Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect to this Junior Hockey Assoc iation, that this sort of thing is a hindrance to the work and effort of the Church which is see king to instil in young minds and consciences the value of moral and religious principles as being ess ential to the proper development of their characte rs and lives . This

article here, I just had it this afternoon and just glanced over it . It refers to the community of parental interests essential in the field of sport . All well and good, but there should also, Mr.

Speaker, be community and parental interest in the development of the mora l lives of the boys that bears such a vital relationship to their future.P arents today in many, many of our Manitoba homes, I'd hate to say how many, but hundreds of them and perhaps that's being very modest, parents and guardians are allowing their children to grow up without the advantages and equipment of religious training and instruction provided by the Sunday Schools of the province . And yet these very parents join in the general concern about the alarming in crease in juvenile and teen-age delinquency. Mr.

Speaker, this situation is som ething which should not be treated lightly; and this Legislature should do nothing to aggravate the problem . We can't afford to let our boys cultivate the idea that Sunday is just a day for sport and pleas ure as Monday and Tues day a11d up to Saturday . To my mind it's a challenge to address our selves to the task of encouraging the boys and girls of the community to realize that Stmday is different from the other days of the week and we should withhold our sponsorship of Sunday games that would defeat that ess ential aim and purpose . Mr.

Speaker, if this Bill becomes law, if the people of Manitoba are given the opportunity of expressing, through the medium of the ballot box, their opinion on this question, I hope th at they will keep ever to the fore, not the thought of amusem ent and pleasure but the vital iss ues that are at stake; and for the sake of the rising generation, the citizenry of tomorrow, give all-out support for the safeguarding of the Lord' s Day as representing one of the most treasured posses sions of our Ca nadian way of life.

Reference was made this afternoon by my honourable friend from Wimlipeg Centre to the early days when Winnipeg was incorpora ted.

Those were the wilderness days for this western land, but when the pioneers came to this country and settled on the banks of the Red and the As siniboine, the Saskatchewan , and other parts of our vast domain, they brought with them, Sir, as a part of their meagre posses sions, the book of their fathers and they made that book the chart and compass of their way of life; and the book declares in words of stern warning and wise counsel to all mankind, " Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it Holy ." MR . SEABORN : Mr.

Speaker, I feel that of all the issues that have arisen in this House this is perhaps the most important, and I could not justify my presence in this House if I did not also raise my voice in protest against any legislation that may permit commer cialized sport to be played on the Lord' s Day. Now I need not stress the fact that our Christian way of life is being seriously threatened by subversive forces . The Minister of Justice, the Honourable Mr.

Fulton, said, "There is a continuing fight for men's minds," and that " the Christian way of life is under attack from two directions, one from without, the second from within; which is just as formidable an opponent as the fir st ." This is indeed all too true . Voltaire was once asked, "H ow can Christia nity be destroyed?" and he replied, "By destroying the Christian Sabbath". Little did Voltaire dream that we, in the 20th Century, would destroy it with our own indifference .

And now as tangible evidence of the depths to which we have fallen, we have this Bill which will legally undermine the Lord' s Day and could bring it closer in character to the other six days of the week. We will open the way for commer cialized sport; next will come the theatres; the churche s will gradually empty; and the picture will be complete. · · , Page 1598 March 15th, 1960

(Mr . Seaborn, cont1d) ••..• One day of the week was always kept apart since man was created . In the Old Testament we read in Genesis,

Chapter 2, Verses 2 and 3, "A nd on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made and He rested on the seventh dayn, and in the following verse, " And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it." This one day of the week was not brought in through legisla tion. It was instituted by God and blessed by Him .

This recognition of this Sabbath day was later made an integral part of the moral law, for the children of Israel are instructed in Exodus 20, 8 and 11, "R emember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, for in six days the Lord made Heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day ; wherefore the Lord has blessed the seventh day and hallowed it." In Leviticus,

Chapter 19 and Verse 30, the instruction is even more explicit: " Ye shall keep my Sabbath and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord." And in Exodus,

Chapter 31, Verse 15, we will find that this day was designed to be a time of rest: " Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord; whosoever doeth any work on the Sabbath day , he shall surely be put to death." This separation of one day in each week was made mandatory by God, but it was not with out a definite purpos e. In the New Testament, in Mark,

Chapter 2, Verse 27 , we find that this day is for man' s physical and spiritual benefit. We are told that a proper observance of this day promises a real blessing . Let me quote from Isaiah,

Chapter 58, Verses 13 & 14. "I f thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shall honour Him , not doing thine own ways , nor finding thine own pleasure s, nor speaking thine own words; then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." God's own word tells us very plainly that one day of the week � be dedicated to Him .

In our own particular dispensation, the dispensation of Grace, we have observed the first day of the week for upon that day our Lord rose from the dead as recorded in the scriptures . In Acts ,

Chapter 20, Verse 7, we find that: " Upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow: and con tinued his speech until midnight." I would like to observe that in commemo rating the resurrection of our Lord by recogniz ing the First day of the week -- appropriately called the Lord' s Day -- the early Christians brought over the best elements of the Jewish Sabbath.

But we find that Christ realized that works of neces sity and mercy had to be done on the Sabbath, as well as on the other days of the week, and we find that He sanctions this by word and deed. The Sabbath day of the Old Testament was an early step in leading up to the conviction that God is love . Doctor Paul Holdercroft says that •the great mass of the Jewish people of antiquity recognized the Sabbath as a safeguard against exploitation.

The principal objectors were the grasping traders and devotees of amusements, and this is true todaY''· We are continually admonished to gather ourselves together on the first day of the week and to give unto the Lord as God has prospered us , and therefore it is my firm belief that the way we spend the Lord' s day may well be a straw which shows how the ·wind blows . If we deliberately flout the Lord' s day we are flouting the Lordship of Christ and will reveal the direction in which our lives are trending. We need not look very far to see the tremendous pressures being exerted on our way of life .

Materialism is rampant throughout the land and our spiritual values have deteriorated almost to the vanishing point. The family life is crumbling under the weight of skepticism and atheistic propaganda that is being poured into the home through the television and other media. We are justly concerned with the growing delinquency among our youth, but I must contend that a great deal of this can be traced right back to the fact that the family have not accepted God in His rightful place in the home.

We seek pleasure in material things rather than the spiritual, and by so doing we leave ourselves vulnerable to the subtle attacks of Communism which mani fests the evil that can come through indifference . The disciple s of Communism reveal a dedica tion to their materialistic way of life that should cause us to pause and reflect how far we have drifted from our own Christian philosophy . I would like to read you an editorial from a French Communist publication, "P eace and Liberty<•. The editorial is headed " The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Communist Manifesto." March 15th, 1960 Page 1599

(Mr. Seaborn, cont' d) .... . It is as follows: " The Gospel is a much more powerful weapon for the renewal of society than is our Marxist philosophy. All the same, it is we who will finally beat you. We are only a handful, and you Christians are numbered by the millions . But if you remember the story of Gideon and his three hundred companions , you will understand why I am right. We communists do not play with words . We are realists, and seeing that we are determined to achieve our object, we know how to obt ain the. means .

Of our salaries and wages we keep only what is strictly necessary; and we give the rest for propaganda purposes . To this propaganda we also consecrate 'a ll our free time and a part of our holidays .' You, however, give only a little time and hardly any money for the spreading of the Gospel of Christ . How can anyone believe in the supreme value of this gospel if you do not practise it ?If you do not spread it? And if you sacrifice neither time nor money for it?

Believe me, it is we who will win, for we believe in our Communist messa ge and we are ready to sacrifice everything, even our life, in order that social justice will triumph . But you people are afraid to soil your hands ." We are accustomed to call ourselves Christia ns, because we have been born :in a Christ ian country, and because we have been brought up to accept certain things which we call Christian beliefs . But as a matter of fact, we have no room for Christianity; we have no room for the Lord's Day. We want to turn Sunday into a Funday.

"W hat have we done with the Lord's Day?" Doctor Helrner Helms asks . "T he multitude= has turned God' s holy day into a holiday, a day of recreation into a day of ''wreck-reation", substituting revelry for reverence, games for God and dissipation for devotion. It is said Thomas Ca rlyle believed in God till Cromwell died. So multitudes believe in God till the links are green, the roads are no longer covered with snow and ice, the beaches are warm , the sky sun-kissed.

Then they kiss God good-bye." The introduction of Sunday sports may appear innocuous, but I firmly believe that it will be the door through which materialism will walk and degrade this day which rightfully belongs to our Lord. The Lord' s Day Alliance has four tenets that are ind eed worthy of our consider ation . The first, we should keep the Lord's day for rest for yourself and others . I have pointed out that Christ recognized that there were works of neces sity that must be done on this day but I do not believe that He would condone overt acts of pleasure .

I believe that if we wish to participate in some physical endeavour for our own benefit we would not violate the principle involved here, but to legislate so that others may engage in sport for monetary return would be contrary to a proper observance of the Lord' s Day . The second tenet of the Lord' s Day Alliance gives my view this way . Keep the Lord's Day for recreation of a kind that befits the day.

I need not comm ent that I consider commercialized hockey, baseball or rugby hardly the sort of recreation in keeping with the day that Christians throughout the centuries have kept in commem oration of our Lord's resurrection. The third and fourth tenets are, I believe, the cornerstone of my argument. They are: "K eep the Lord's Day for reflection upon the Christian way of life;" and finally, "K eep the Lord' s Day for renewal of fellowship with God and His people ." The Christian Sabbath is , ess entially, one originally instituted by God for His glory and the benefits of mankind.

Nations who have recognized the importance of this have prospered beyond the limits of material wealth alone. Scotland, poor in resources but rich in the abundant treasures of the spirit, left a heritage and an influence upon the Christian world that can never be effaced. The moral fibre and courage of a truly Christian nation can never be undermined by disbelief or dismayed by the apparent prosperity of the wicked. "We are not poorer but richer because we have rested from labour one day in seven", said Thomas Macauley. " That day is not lost .

While industry is suspended, while the plough lies in the furrow, while the stock exchange is silent, while no smoke ascends from the factory, a process is going on quite as important to the wealth of the nation as any process which is performed on more busy days .

Man, the ma chine of ma chines, is repairing and winding up so that he returns to his labours on Monday with clearer intelligence, with livelier spirits, with renewed corporeal vigour." In this critical hour of the world' s history when the forces of darkness threaten to extinguish the light of our faith and overthrow our way of life, we should be seeking to streng then the ramparts, not to weaken them . If Voltaire was convinced that Christianity could be Page 1600 March 15th, 1960

(Mr . Seaborn, cont' d) ••••• destroyed through the destruction of our Christian Sabbath, it would be well for us to take heed. Before taking a step further in the direction of a Christ less Lord's Day, we might pause to reflect that France made this experiment many years ago . By government order , for one year and two months, no observance of the Sabbath was permitted by anyone. As a result, lawlessness and licentiousness swept over the land like a murky sea; and in those brief 14 months there were 20 , 000 more divorces than in the previous 5 years.

For her own preserva tion France was compelled to restore a proper recognition of the Sabbath day. Now, Mr. Speaker, I cannot think of more appropriate words to close with than the comment made by Mr. Jules Reubens, a local member of the Council in Middle borough, in England. A theatre owner himself, he was speaking against a resolution to permit picture houses to be open on Sunday. Said he, "I love your English Sunday, your Christian Sabbath, and should be very sorry to see it pass away.

If a Jew may be pardoned for making this suggestion to Christians; let me say this: If you sacrifice the Sunday you have been brought up to respect, you will lose something you will be sorry for the whole of your lives." J){lR. GROVES: I rise with somewhat the same feelings that my honourable friend from Lac du Bonnet had when he rose to speak on the debate on margarine, when he had in one hand a batch of telegrams from consumers asking him to support coloured margarine, and in the other, a petition from farmers asking him to vote against it .

This is one of the tim es when it would be most convenient to have to go to the bathroom , but these things have to be faced. I am an active member of the United Church of Canada, a Sunday School Superintendent and one of those who believe that Simday is a day of worship, a day of rest, and a day which the family spends together; and a day which should not be used for commercial sport, perform ances, or commercial profit-making enterprises of any description.

On the other hand, I am also a member of the Advisory Board of the Greater Winnipeg Minor Hockey Assoc iation who are without commercial sponsorship of any description, and doing a tremendous job amongst many hundreds of our boys in the Greater Winnipeg area. Some of this work is carried on on Sunda y because of lack of facilities on other days of the week. I am against this Act in principle, although I am prepared to see it go to committee where we can hear representa tions from those who may be affected by it .

Section 3 of the Bill states that any non-profit organization may produce or provide any game, contest or performance on Sunday, for which an admission may be charged. A non profit organization is supposed to be an organization that exists not for the purpose of pecuniary gain. I maintain that this definition in this Act could include practically anybody.

It certainly includes the organization that we have at the present time that runs the Blue Bomber Football Club; I don't know the status of the professional hockey club or the professional baseball club that operates in Winnipeg, but I can well imagine that sooner or later they would be getting in under this definition. We are opening the door in this Act to large commercial spectator sports and performances on Sunday, and I am against that. I also feel that in respect of this Bill that Greater Winnipeg should be considered as one unit for the purposes of taking this vote.

There are no facilities in any of the suburbs for holding the types of games, contests or performances that are envisioned in this Bill, so that what the City of Winnipeg votes for, the suburbs get whether they like it or not. Furthermore, I'm against this Bill beca use in its present fo rm it will kill purely amateur sports .

In Greater Winnipeg, besides the program of the Greater Winnipeg Minor Hockey Assoc iation, our purely amateur football teams play their games on Sunday afternoons, and we have amateur, purely amateur baseball leagues playing games on Sunday afternoons in the sum mer time throughout the whole province . These are sports of prim arily a participant nature to whi_ch no serious objection has been taken in the past. Interest in such youth development pro-· grams will die if we allow commercial spectator sports to further encroach on our Sundays .

I am against the type of activities envisioned in this Bill, on Sundays. I have no objection to pure ly participant sports on Sundays and I have no objection to sports contests of a purely amateur nature being held on Sundays where the players receive no remuneration, either directly or indirectly, because I feel that these are primarily youth development programs who don't draw and don't particularly want to draw large crowds on Sundays . I will vote for this Bill to go to committee but I wish it understood that this does not constitute my approval of it in principle. March 15th, 1960 Page 160 1

MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to follow the other honourable gentlemen with a prepared speech on this Bill , but all through my life I have participated in sports of all kinds up to the point of professional sport, and I personally am against this Bill because of the fact that if you are going to treat it as a Bill that will influence people to take

part in sports, they must have certain days to relax on and be. able to be trained in. When I'm talking about being trained as a professional sport, be it track or team events, and one day is required, there is no reason in the world why Sunday sholild be the day that they must participate in. I also go back to my background as a boy of which I was prohibited, through activities in the Church, of taking

part in Sunday sport. I see it as a stepping stone of the professional organizations to draw bigger crowds for their own means, and for those reasons, Mr. Speaker, I am definitely against this Bill even to go to comm ittee. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, everyone except the sponsor of this Bill has spoken against it. For the life of me I can't see why, because ever since I can remember, sport has been played on Sunday in the community I was raised in, and if you' ll check the communities throughout the province you will find that baseball and hockey is played on Sunday and there are no complaints about it.

Take for instance, the City of Flin Flon. I dare say that anybody who tried to stop them from playing hockey on Sunday would face severe criticism and maybe even a worse fate. It disappoints me to hear so many people talk about the harm that sport on Sunday would cause . We've had, during the past two years, games played at the Winnipeg Arena, the Olympic Rink, and as far as I'm concerned there isn't a thing wrong with it.

In the past, the crowds have been poor because of other activities such as television and the games have been suffering because of lack of attendance, and when they were able to play on Sunday at the Arena or the Olympic, there was a marked increase in the number of people who attended these games. I can't see anything wrong with a father taking his children to the game and enjoying the day with them . There is no harm in it. It seems to me it's a narrow minded view that just because some people don't want to attend sports on Sunday that every body else should be stopped from it.

Ther e's no compulsion in this . I dare say that there isn't a member in this Legislature who hasn't either watched a World Series game on television or listened to a World Series game on radio on a Sunday afternoon, and if it is so wrong to play the game, you' re just as sinful to watch it or listen to it. The Member for St. Matthews chastised Mr. Perrin who owns the Winnipeg Warriors . I wonder if the honourable member has ever seen the books in Mr. Perrin' s office. Mr . Perrin has lost thousands of dollars since he began operating. I say Mr .

Perrin has some credit coming to him for donating his own money to sponsor sport in this city. Sunday is the one day the working man can get out with his family to enjoy a hockey game. Isn't it much better for boys and girls to go to a hockey game or to a baseball game in the afternoon than to hang around street corners wondering what mischief they can get into because there's noth ing·to do? Quebec, Ontario, and I believe other provinces allow sport on a limited basis on Sunday. Are those people any worse than we are in Manitoba? I suggest they're not.

Are the people in the United states any worse because they have allowed sports on Sunday afternoon? I suggest they're not. I think that we're being very narrow-minde d in our views on this. Only a few years ago the Liquor Act was brought into this province. For years many of those people who hold the same views as on the sports, opposed and opposed bitterly the selling of liquor in Manitoba, but the people wanted it, and now as a result of it we have better restaurants and we have drinking which is on a moderate basis rather than people hiding bottles under tables .

It's much--better to do it on the up and up , and I suggest to you that whether you vote against this Bill today it will come up again and people will gradually vote for it, and they'll be better off for it. And I suggest to you , Mr. Speaker, that the members of this House, they should ,let this Bill go to second reading and let those persons who are opposed to it and those persons who are in favour of it present their arguments in Law Amendments . MR. PAUL LEY: I just want to say a word or two in connection with this Bill . The only thing I agree

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2cf6afd335be6f8bd127d370098e90d680a9086a

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