Manitoba Hansard — 13 May 2004 (Sitting 38B, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-38b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 38B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 13, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2091 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 13, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Highway 227 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada Highway.

Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unaccept- able. Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having Highway 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Submitted on behalf of Carl Fleury, Shirley Fleury, Stacy Sorenson and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House, and this will mean for all future petitions. Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I beg to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their Government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability. Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties.

Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by J. Cannon, D. Normand, and R. Richard. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the honourable Member for Charleswood, I would like to ask the

2092 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 House if I could have agreement to instead of repeating after every petition, "when a petition is read it is received by the Ho use," if I could just do it once after the first petition which would be applic- able to the rest of the petitions for each day. Could I have agreement of the House? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: I thank you very much. Alzheimer's Disease Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition. Alzheimer's is a debilitating disease.

Cholinesterase inhibitors are known to slow or even prevent the progression of Alzheimer's. The provincial government asked for the devel- opment of an Alzheimer's strategy in 2000 and was presented with nine recommendations in 2002, none of which have yet been implemented. In the absence of a provincial Alzheimer's strategy, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority put in place a policy in November 2003 whereby Alzheimer's patients entering personal care homes are being weaned from certain Alzheimer medi- cations in a move that the WRHA's vice-president of long-term care has refe rred to as a financial necessity.

The administrative costs of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have more than tripled since 1999, to a total of more than $16 million a year. In a move that amounts to two-tier medicine, the families of Alzheimer's sufferers in personal care homes may request that the drugs continue to be delivered at the family's expense. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) to ensure that his attempts to balance his depart- ment's finances are not at the expense of the health and well-being of seniors and other vulnerable Manitobans suffering from this debilitating disease. * (13:35) To urge the Minister of Health to consider reversing his decision to deny Alzheimer's patients in personal care homes access to certain medications. To request the Minister of Health to consider implementing a provincial Alzheimer's strategy. Signed by Bernie Goertz, Ron Broten, Dennis Cavanagh and others. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union.

Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized. The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2093 Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite. Manitobans deserve an open and fair compe- tition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed by R. Fraser, R. W. Powell, R. Gosling and others. Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.

Manitobans deserve an open and fair compe- tition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plans of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. This is signed by Ryan Olfert, Rolando Giesbrecht, Orlando Braun and others. * (13:40)

2094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 Pharmacare Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition. These are the reasons for the petition. Pharmacare is a drug benefit program for any Manitoban, regardless of age, whose income is seriously affected by high prescription drug costs. Under the Doer government, Pharmacare deduc- tibles have been increased by five percent each year for the last three years. As a result of the 15% hike in Pharmacare deductibles, individuals are facing increased costs ranging from $36 to $660 a year.

Seniors, fixed- and low-income-earning Manitobans are the most negatively impacted by these increases. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier of Manitoba to consider reversing his decision to increase Pharmacare deduc- tibles by 5 percent in Budget 2004, To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider reducing health care bureaucracy, as previously promised, and direct those savings into sustaining Pharmacare.

To urge the Premier of Manitoba to consider re- evaluating his Government's priorities and to consider suspending his Government's plans to spend $100 million on new VLTs at a time when seniors and fixed-income Manitobans cannot afford medication. It is signed by E. Pourier, E. S. Piper and M. Dessureault. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): I am pleased to table the 2004-2005 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Advanced Education and Training. Hon.

Jim Rondeau (Minister responsible for Healthy Living): I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 2004-2005 for the Departmental Expenditures for Healthy Child Manitoba. Also I would like to table the Departmental Expenditures for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I am pleased to table the Culture, Heritage and Tourism Supplementary Information for Legisl ative Review for the Departmental Estimates 2004-2005. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Energy, Science and Technology for 2004-2005. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us Mr. Nishish Jha from India who is the brother of the honourable Member for Radisson (Mr. Jha). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Manitobans have watched with some disgust and some disappointment over this Premier's continued bungling of the floodway expansion project. His refusal to listen to the vast majority of Manitobans who are fundamentally opposed to his plans to force workers to pay union dues and force companies to be part of a union organization is causing undue delay in getting on with the work at hand, which is building the floodway. His failure to take the issue of forced union- ization and forced union dues off the table has, and is, surely causing unnecessary delays as Mr.

Wally Fox-Decent prepares his report and has denied all parties the ability to reach an agreement on the floodway expansion project agreement. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier: Has he received the report from Professor Wally Fox-Decent? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I have not received the report. I will consult with our minister, but I just

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2095 want to make some corrections on the rhetoric of the member opposite. Firstly, we have continued in our work that was scheduled to take place in 2004 after we reached an agreement which was signed off in November of 2003. We have continued in our design work, particularly dealing with the design of the floodway and its impact upon ground water and wells. We have not lost a moment in terms of that. Secondly–and the Member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard) asked questions previously about going to a separate federal and provincial process– we have condensed that time through the good offices of Mr. Gilroy from a potential three-year environmental licensing process to a one-year environmental process. The information on the ground water and wells is crucial for the environ- mental licence. If we were to proceed building the floodway now without an environmental licence, we would be breaking the law. I know some surrogates are suggesting that. Is the member opposite suggesting the province of Manitoba break the law? * (13:45) Mr. Murray: No, Mr. Speaker.

I am suggesting the Premier take forced unionization and forcing non- union workers to pay union dues off the table. That is what I am suggesting. I think all of us in this House have heard the radio ads and all of us have seen the television commercials that are playin g around this issue but perhaps the Premier has not, or if he has, perhaps he is not listening to them the way that he is not listening to the vast majority of Manitobans who tell him to do the right thing and take forced unionization off the table.

I would like to repeat one from the Premier, and I quote, "The clock is ticking, draining weeks and months from the critical job of expanding the floodway." Government says it is a top priority yet they continue to delay, leaving all of us waiting. Let us tell them it is time. It is time to make a decision. It is time to end the fighting. It is time to build a floodway, Mr. Speaker. It is time for the Premier to make a decision. It is time for the Premier to end the fighting. It is time for the Premier to take forced unionization and forced union dues off the table.

It is time to get on with building the floodway. Will he do the right thing and take forced unionization off the table? Mr. Doer: The member opposite tells us to build the floodway. He is telling us to break the law because we do not have an environmental licence. We are applying for an environmental licence based on the new science and engineering work that has been completed. I am surprised the members opposite would be quoting from an ad that tells us to break the law. Surely to goodness in this Legislature we should be following the law. Mr. Murray: I am surprised, Mr.

Speaker, that this Premier was unable to deal with the business community in Manitoba and had to bring in Wally Fox-Decent to deal with an issue that he was incapable of dealing with. All he had to do was simply take forced unionization off the table to allow those companies, 95 percent of which in Manitoba are non-unionized, to get on with what is important. That is what this is all about. We have heard that the report of the floodway expansion project will not require as much digging as first thought. Mr.

Speaker, unfortunately for Manitobans, this Premier is digging himself and his Government deeper and deeper into a hole because he will not take forced unionization off the table. Now, I am going to ask the Premier, because we have seen in this House, Mr. Speaker, where a committee that he put together to talk about funding of education in Manitoba that spent two years working very hard, one of the recommendations they put forward to this Premier was to increase the provincial sales tax by 1 percent. He stood in this place and he said, no, he would not agree to that.

I want to ask this First Minister: If Professor Wally Fox-Decent brings forward a report that in any way, shape or form talks about forced unionization, will he also say no to that forced unionization, no to that recommendation, and get on with building the floodway? An Honourable Member: –a seven-year-old's answer. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, speaking of seven-year- olds, the little echo from Springfield, I am sorry, the honourable Member for Sp ringfield (Mr. Schuler),

2096 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 would know all about seven-year-olds. He would not know the statement that Vic Toews made in this House about– * (13:50) An Honourable Member: Grow up, Mr. Premier, grow up. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would point out to the honourable member that this side of the House will be bringing in pension legislation, when we bring it in, that will protect spouses, not like his legislation. Red River Floodway Expansion Master Labour Agreement Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Water Stewardship has stated publicly that all workers on the floodway expansion project would be forced to pay union dues. Industry representatives have stated that this unnecessary provision would add to the cost to Manitoba tax- payers $65 million. The Premier said in his last answer that he has not lost a moment on the studies that he has put forward. I wonder if the Minister of Water Stewardship has given even one moment to finding out and doing an analysis on what the costs of forced union dues would be to taxpayers in Manitoba. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): I am very surprised that members opposite have not acknowledged that there is a very significant amount of work that is ongoing. In fact, we made a very significant announcement that members opposite, I thought, would have been asking questions about, the design of the floodway, which, thanks to the excellent engineering work being done by the engineering consultants and by the Floodway Expansion Authority, is going to result in deepening of no more than two feet compared to the original design of no more than six feet. You can ask the Member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar), who raised this question yesterday, how important that is to his constituents. It is also important to constituents in Springfield. We are continuing with the work and, indeed, that will be done with the same budget we have been talking about all the way along. So the members opposite who keep tabling petitions saying the floodway may be built, I can tell them it will be built. We are doing the preparatory work now and we are ensuring it will be built, unlike turning it into a political football as they have. Mr. Goertzen: Mr.

Speaker, either the minister did not listen to the question or he simply does not care to hear the question. I did not ask about the design of the floodway. I did not ask about the depth of the floodway. I asked about what the additional costs to the Manitoba taxpayers would be if they go ahead with forced union dues. Has anybody in his department, has the minister even cared to look what the cost to the taxpayers would be if there is a s uggestion for forced union dues on the floodway? What would that kickback cost, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, members opposite may not have noticed– Mr. Speaker: Order.

I have not recognized the honourable member yet. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I am just very anxious to answer the question. In fact, my apologies. Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate that Wally Fox- Decent, who is a very well-respected Manitoban, has been working with all the stakeholders. Due to some personal circumstances, Mr. Fox-Decent has, in fact, had to cancel a number of other obligations. We all hope that he will be in a position to provide that report soon and will provide us some clear direction based on the stakeholder input which is very important.

I want to stress to the member opposite again, the working data work on the environmental work, the engineering work, an d the budget for the floodway remains unchanged. In fact, we are going to be able to stick to that budget and minimize ground water effects. Those are real issues, Mr. Speaker, unlike the political footballs that members opposite keep trying to recycle in this House.

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2097 Mr. Goertzen: Well, the minister said that he was eager to answer the question so it is funny that he did not bother to answer the question. I did not ask about the environmental impact. I did not ask about the depth of the floodway, and I did not ask about the design of the floodway. What I asked this minister very clearly, and I will ask it again on behalf of all Manitobans: What will the additional costs to the forced union dues on the floodway project be? Has his Government done any analysis on what amounts to a kickback to his union buddies will be?

Or has he not even bothered to ask? Or is he incompetent? Or both? * (13:55) Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the floodway remains unchanged, the member opposite did not understand. I would remind him that before he now wants to go back to criticizing the process we put in place, that indeed the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construction Association of Rural Manitoba, the Merit Contractors and the Heavy Construction Association all urge us to appoint publicly Wally Fox-Decent, to put him in place. Apparently stakeholders in Manitoba have faith in Wally Fox-Decent.

Memb ers opposite do not, but their only concern with the floodway is politics. Auto Theft Rates Reduction Strategy Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Auto theft rates in Winnipeg have increased by 7 percent from 1999 to 2002 and another 6.7% increase to 2003. Rick Linden, a criminolog ist and chairman of the province's Auto Theft Task Force, said, "Vehicle theft remains high in Winnipeg and Winnipeg has one of the highest per capita car theft rates in Canada." Why has the Minister of Justice not reduced auto theft rates when he has promised us time and time again to do so? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Imagine getting lessons from Conservatives on the auto theft rates, Mr. Speaker? It is my understanding that the auto theft rate last year increased 5.6 percent, a rate that was still lower than 2001. I remind members opposite, when they were in office the auto theft rate increased 285 percent. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, just when we thought auto theft rates could soar no further, they increased another 6.7 percent last year.

They probably would have gone even further, except that the police stolen vehicle phone line was busy for three days and those who had their automobile stolen could not get through. Is this the minister's answer to decreasing auto thefts? Do not answer the stolen vehicle line and therefore it does not form part of the stolen vehicle numbers. Mr. Mackintosh: I regret that the Opposition would focus an attack on Winnipeg Police Service. Mr. Speaker, I think that is unfortunate.

The Winnipeg police, as members know even from the last couple of days, have been most effective at apprehending suspects in some auto thefts, which demonstrates two things, not only the danger of auto theft, but also the dedication of the Winnipeg Police Service in partnership with Manitoba Justice, MPI, Citizens on Patrol, other groups, to deal with this challenge. But we need no lessons from members opposite. When auto theft rates were going up almost 300 percent in Manitoba, they made five promises in '95. Not one of them was implemented. Mr.

Hawranik: I ask the Minister of Justice not to deflect the blame to the Winnipeg Police Service but to accept full responsibility for increased auto thefts in 2003. In 2003, the number of stolen vehicles in Winnipeg increased by 6.7 percent over the previous year. In the meantime, Elaine Poersch who called the police stolen vehicle line over 100 times over a three-day period could not get through to report her vehicle as stolen. Mr. Speaker, is this the Justice Minister's strategy to decreasing crime in Winnipeg, to make it as difficult as possible for people to report a crime? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think the members are concerned about the operations of Winnipeg Police Service. I will certainly pass on that to the police. We have formed a good partnership with our police agencies in Manitoba. I want to remind members that this Government has brought in the toughest car theft legislation in

2098 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 Canada and has put in place new initiatives. Whether it is with regard to the installation of immobilizers, dealing with the manufacturers to make sure that immobilizers are installed at factory, Mr. Speaker, whether it is campaigns, whether in parking lots, whether it is driver education, whether it is the auto theft prosecution team that they promised in '95 and we delivered on, whether it is notification of communities, there is action. Emergency Room Services Overcrowding Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On Easter Monday, my constituent, Stephen Fielding, took an ambulance to an emergency room because he was having heart palpitations and breathing difficulties. After being triaged, he was told he would have to wait in a very overcrowded waiting room. He was feeling very unwell so his mom asked if he could lie down on a stretcher. She was told there were no empty stretchers and that Stephen should lie down on the waiting room floor. I would like to ask the Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) how he has been able to say he has fixed hallway medicine when sick patients are now being told to lie down on the floor of an emergency room waiting room. Hon. Steve Ashton (Acting Minister of Health): As Acting Minister of Health, I know that we have more than 200 000 visits to emergency rooms in Winnipeg every year. Mr.

Speaker, in addition to dealing with the overall resourcing issues, where we have been dealing with staffing issues and signi- ficantly reducing vacancies in terms of nursing and physician and other staffing, which is important to that, we have put in place the permanent recommen- dations of the ER task force. I can undertake, Mr. Speaker, to follow up in terms of any particular circumstances that have arisen.

Our basic approach as a government, in fact the approach of the entire health care system, is to provide the best possible care to those 200 000 Manitobans, but where problems do occur, we do not sweep them under a carpet. We do look at ways of improving the situation in the future. That is why we have made some very significant progress since 1999 in terms of our emergency wards and particularly in terms of hallway medicine. * (14:00) Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the reason there were no stretchers was because the ER, including the hallways, was full.

Yet this Minister of Health likes to pat himself on the back and say that he has fixed hallway medicine. Can the Minister of Health tell Stephen's dad, who is sitting in the gallery today, why his son was told to lie down on the ER waiting room floor? He was sick. He needed help. He could not sit, and he was told to lie down on the waiting room floor. Can this Government please explain that to Stephen's dad? Mr. Ashton: I indicated that we take very seriously each and every one of those patients that go into our emergency wards, in fact, anywhere in our hospital system. Mr.

Speaker, where we have had incidents in the past, we have responded. We have put in place a whole new system of dealing with that, but what is important is not so much the systems, but recog- nizing that where you do have 200 000 Manitobans visiting our hospital wards, situations will occur that need to be prevented in the future. What I will say to the member opposite is please provide me with those details. I will work with the Minister of Health. We will look at what happened and, as we have done in the past, our commitment is to try and improve the health care system wherever possible. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, there is absolutely no excuse for that kind of situation to happen in a Canadian hospital. Stephen's mom was so taken aback by the suggestion that her sick son should lie on the floor of the ER waiting room, in fact she felt that they were visiting a hospital in a Third World country. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he will now admit and if the Doer government will now admit that they misled Manitobans in the 1999 election when they said they were going to fix hallway medicine in six months with $15 million. Mr. Ashton: I wondered where the politics would come into the question, Mr.

Speaker. What I would explain would be that if the members opposite had been elected, they had promised a 1% increase for health care. We put in

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2099 place a 5.2% increase this year. That is $100 million less that would have been in the health care system if they had been in government and, given their record in the 1990s, we do not need any political lectures from members opposite. I take very seriously, as does every member of this Government, the situation that occurred. If they want to get into the politics, they should recognize that their record of the 1990s is we had people lined up in the hallways. Our commitment was to reduce that. We reduced it by 80 percent.

We will not stop until it is down to zero. That is our commitment. Emergency Room Services Overcrowding Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): The attitude of this Government is spend more and get less. Almost five years ago the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) said they would end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million. Today, almost five years later, patients are dying in hospital hallways waiting to be seen and they are being told to lie on the floor to wait for the care that they need.

When will this minister and this Government act, take responsibility and fix the problems that exist that they promised to fix five years ago? Hon. Steve Ashton (Acting Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I indicated very clearly that in terms of the particular circumstances that happened, we take that very seriously. In fact one of the reasons we indicated in 1999 how unacceptable the hallway medicine was, was that there was at that time very little recognition by the members opposite when they were in government that it was even a problem.

We have decreased it by 80 percent despite the fact that we inherited a legacy where they had taken 1500 nursing positions out of the system, a reduction in terms of doctors of more than a hundred. We have, since we came into government, increased the number of nurses by 879. There are 156 more nurses in. We have targeted, partic ularly the last two years, the shortages of staff in our ERs. We are working very hard, Mr. Speaker. That does not make what happened acceptable. We will review the specific circumstances, but the members opposite should not lecture us about hallway medicine.

They are the ones that left the system in a mess. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, I am sure that the Fielding family takes a lot of solace in that kind of arrogant response from the minister. Mr. Speaker, there is a physician shortage in emergency rooms. There is a nursing shortage in emergency rooms. Patients are dying in emergency rooms waiting to be seen. Patients are being asked to lie on the floor because there is no space for them in emergency rooms. When will this Government and this minister indicate how they are going to fix the system that they promised to fix five years ago? They promised a quick fix.

When is that going to happen? Mr. Ashton: Well, I need no lectures in terms of arrogance. That member was part of a government for 11 years that allowed the situation to develop in Manitoba where it was acceptable to have hallway medicine, and we have put in place measures that have reduced it by 80 percent. Mr. Speaker, I indicated to the member who raised the concern, the Member for Charleswood (Ms. Driedger), about the specific circumstances, that we always take seriously each and every one of the patients in our hospitals. In terms of dealing with shortages in the ERs, we have taken action.

We have reduced the nursing shortage by more than 50 percent just in the last number of years alone. We have three more physi- cians coming through in terms of ERs. We are making a difference, but the bottom line here is again, we take each and every one of those patients very seriously. What happened in this case, I would like to get more details, and I can assure the members opposite we will look very seriously at what happened. That is what a caring government is all about. Mrs. Mitchelson: There was a time when lying on a stretcher in a hospital hallway was unacceptable to this Premier.

Now it appears to be acceptable to this Premier to lie on a floor in the emergency waiting room. When will this Premier take some respon- sibility for what is happening in our emergency rooms under his watch and fix what he promised to fix five years ago?

2100 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The member opposite and I will be at the Concordia Hospital this evening and she will know that, over the period of time from four and a half years ago, almost every day there are 80% fewer patients in the hallway. She will also know that there is a new way of organizing the situation in the hospitals. She will also know that– An Honourable Member: Why do you not tell them that at dinner tonight and see what they say? Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think members in northeast Winnip eg know the answer to those questions, and we saw that a year ago. The whole challenge of dealing with patients in the hallways and in emergency rooms, we now have a management system at noon that kicks in– An Honourable Member: Lie on the floor. That is how we will manage it. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: We have put in place a system where– [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Winnipeg Regional Health Authority now co-ordinates areas where there are too many patients and too few beds, and other situations where there are beds that are available. The specific– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:10) Mr. Doer: The incident that has been raised by the member from Charleswood, I assume that the Minister of Health is investigating because he has been given the opportunity to investigate the specifics. If not, if he is only finding out for the first time in the Chamber, we will follow up.

I think there are legitimate questions raised and the family deserves answers, and we will provide that to the family. Gaming Addictions Impact on Suicide Rate Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, it is quite likely that Manitoba has the highest gambling addiction rate in all of Canada. Yesterday the head of gaming operations in Nova Scotia told a legislative committee that 10 of 159 confirmed suicides in Nova Scotia were linked to gambling addiction.

In spite of these startling statistics, the Doer government has expanded the hours of operation for VLTs, they have introduced keno into this province, they are spending $100 million on new VLTs to encourage more Manitobans to become addicted and now they are talking about a casino in Brandon. This Government has not had one study on the effects of gambling on the citizens of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I would ask them how they can proceed on this expansion of gambling without even bothering to record or to investigate how many Manitobans each year take their own lives as a result of gambling addictions.

How can you proceed with this expansion? Hon. Scott Smith (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see at least the Member for Fort Whyte did not do the shoddy work that the member previous, from Steinbach, had done yesterday asking the Minister of Gaming one question, not focussing on lotteries. Lotteries, I can tell you the difference between then and now is that side of the House had absolutely zero policy on responsible gaming in the province of Manitoba.

That side of the House is responsible for opening up two casinos in the city of Winnipeg at an over cost of $140 million. That side of the House introduced every VLT into the province of Manitoba with absolutely no responsible gaming policy. We have one and it is starting to turn things around. Mr. Loewen: This minister believes that responsible gaming is expansion of gambling. He should be ashamed of himself for that. There are 5300 VLTs in Manitoba compared to only 3200 in Nova Scotia. Manitobans spend $606 a year on average on gambling. Nova Scotia spends $478.

We know for a fact that 10 of 159 suicides in Nova Scotia are directly related to gambling addictions. We have between 150 and 175 suicides in

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2101 Manitoba. It is unrealistic to think that there is not somewhere between 10 and 15 Manitobans that take their lives every year as a result of gambling addiction. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this minister when he will take the time to do the proper studies, have a socio-economic study, study the impacts of gambling on this province, before he expands gambling operations. Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I will give you a piece of what their responsible gaming policy was from the member of River East in 1993. Here was the Tories idea of responsible gaming.

"Ultimately, people choose whether or not they are going to spend their disposable income on gambling or smoking or drinking. People do ultimately make those decisions. No one is forcing Manitobans to gamble in any way." That was a policy of the Filmon government. In 2001, under this Government, the MLC devel- oped a responsible gaming policy strategy, the first of its kind in Canada. We have expanded over 77% more dollars into responsible gaming since we took office, in fact, a 24% increase last year. Mr. Speaker, we are working with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba and it is working. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, I asked this minister a serious question, and the best he could do is go back to read Hansard from 1993. He ought to be ashamed of himself. The numbers, the facts, are startling. There are probably 10 to 15 Manitobans that take their lives every year as a result of gambling-related addictions.

Why does this minister, why does the Doer government, continue on the road of expanding gambling without even taking advice of every coroner in Canada who has agreed that this is a serious health issue, has agreed that reports need to be presented to every provincial legislature to indicate how many people die from gambling every year? Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. It is very difficult to hear the honourable member trying to put his question. I am sure the honourable member appreciates all the help, but I am sure he can put the question on his own.

I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. The question that was put, I did not hear it. I would ask the honourable member just to put the question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question to the minister is: When is he going to abide by the information that he has from every coroner across Canada who has indicated that it is essential that provinces start to gather information on how many people commit suicide every year as a result of gambling-related incidences? I want to know when that report is going to be presented. Mr. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, I gave the member from Fort Whyte too much credit. He has not done his homework. This Government, we have a responsible gaming policy where the members opposite never did. We will not go back to Hansard back in '93, we will go back to just before the previous election when the Leader of the Opposition was saying to Assiniboia Downs, "Absolutely, it is a no-brainer that we will expand your machines. We will have new machines in the Assiniboia Downs." Mr. Speaker, the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) wants to get rid of all the machines that the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) brought in.

We have a focus, and it is to improve responsible gaming policies in the province of Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I would like to ask all honourable members, I need to be able to hear the questions and I need to be able to hear the answers. I am sure members in this House also feel the same. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Smith: The reality is the member across is completely wrong. The prevalence rate in gambling is one of the lowest in Manitoba, right across western Canada.

Working with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba we do have that information. We are funding the AFM, and it is making a difference that they did not address. Pension Plans Withdrawals–Hardship Cases Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, this morning we witnessed a very socialistic attitude

2102 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 toward governing in this province. The pension issue is a very serious issue. It is an issue which other provinces throughout the country are in fact recog- nizing. Some provinces have enabled the pensioners, the individuals, to ultimately make decisions. Today we have a government member who says, "Well, we cannot quite trust them b ecause they might spend their money on cottages." I am asking for the Minister of Labour (Ms.

Allan) to acknowledge that seniors do know better on how to spend money than this Government, and ask in relationship to it the very least of hardship withdrawals. Mr. Speaker, will this Government allow for seniors to access additional monies from their own retirement funds? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): It gives us an oppor- tunity today to praise a pioneer who, of course, came from Manitoba, an individual who fought tirelessly for decades for senior citizens to have the right of pensions before they had the unfettered rights to make decisions in the marketplace without any pension.

Thanks to Stanley Knowles, people in Canada have pensions. Thanks to Stanley Knowles, people have pensions in this country. Mr. Speaker, I am shocked the member opposite would criticize Stanley Knowles. Mr. Lamoureux: I have represented areas in which Stanley Knowles is represented and I can tell you Mr. Premier, you are no Stanley Knowles. Stanley Knowles I do not even think would have been paying so little attention to such a critical issue. He had more faith in the seniors knowing how to spend their own money.

He did not say that seniors in Manitoba would squander their money on cottages, as some members of this Government have said. My question to the Premier is: Will the Premier acknowledge in hardship cases that there is a need to allow our seniors to access their funds? It is a simple question. * (14:20) Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I would just like to remind the member opposite that the Government that is going to bring in pension legislation is an NDP govern- ment. This legislation has not been reviewed for over 20 years. It is this–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms.

Allan: It has been over 22 years since The Pension Benefits Act has been reviewed. We will take all of the information, we will weigh it very carefully. It is very comple x and the legislation that we bring in will stand the test of time. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, it is not all that complex. The other provinces have already done it. Saskatchewan has done it over a year ago. This Government claims to have been elected in 1999 and has been around. They have had the opportunity.

It is a question of whether or not they have faith in seniors to be able to know better than this Govern- ment in terms of spending their own money. We are not talking about government money. This is their own money which they have invested in retirement funds and there are incidences that, at the very least, this Government should acknowledge in hardship cases where seni ors should be able to access those funds. This Government has no business telling these seniors that they do not have a right to their own funds. Shame on this Government.

We want this Government to take action. [interjection] The Premier wants to know who said it. It was the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) who said it. Mr. Speaker, whoever said it, all we know is that this Government is all in sync. The issue is when are we going to see action on this issue. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, unlike the Conservative surrogate that sits behind the Member for Springfield (M r. Schuler), we will take some good ideas from seniors. We will take the issue of predictability, but the issue– Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on a point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: I am somewhat sensitive in the issue that the minister, I think, might have attributed me to be a Conservative. I do not think it would be appropriate, given I like to think that I have many friends from all political parties, and for me this particular issue is about our seniors. It is not about a political party.

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2103 Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order? Mr. Doer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, "Conservative" is not out of order and "surrogate" is not out of order. Therefore, his point of order is without merit. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to conclude his comments. Mr. Doer: We are keeping track of the member's voting record.

There is an accountability. At the end of the day we will add up how many times he is accountable for his decisions but, having said that, the bottom line is the bill that is before the House, and it shows you kind of the vacuous kinds of positions made by the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). Mr. Speaker, it does not protect spousal rights in pensions. This Minister of Labour (Ms. Allan) will protect spouses, something the member did not do. Mr. Speaker: Order. Members who wish to have a conversation, I see two empty loges. Feel free to use them. Question Period is over.

We are going to move on to members' statements. Speaker's Statement Mr. Speaker: I was in the Chair this morning when we were dealing with private members' business and there was a resolution that came forward dealing with Sgt. Tommy Prince. Many, many speakers on both sides of the House were talking about and giving their thanks to Sgt. Tommy Prince and war heroes like him and they were saying, well, the democracy we enjoy today, we can thank those veterans.

I always thought one part of the democracy that we enjoy is the freedom of speech, and if that is true, if we all have the right to enjoy freedom of speech, then we should have the right to be heard. Members do not have to like what we say, but we still have the right to be heard. I think it is incumbent on all of us to respect that which is in our rules and also to the respect of the veterans who, like all members said in this House, sacrificed themselves for us to enjoy that kind of democracy. And I know freedom of speech is one of them.

I ask all honourable members to think about that and hopefully we will give the courtesy to whoever has the floor. Whether we agree or not, they still have the right to be heard. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Model United Nations Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): The 2004 MUN, or the Model United Nations assembly, took place last week here in Winnipeg with many young people from Manitoba and neighbouring provinces and states taking part. This Model United Nations assembly is a youth service project and international service project organized and sponsored by the Rotary Club of Winnipeg.

As a Rotarian, I am very proud to say that every year we give Grade 12 students first-hand experience in the workings of the United Nations. They gain an understanding of the responsibility of individual citizens for the success of the United Nations and how to make the United Nations a better understood instrument for world peace . Mr. Speaker, with the assistance of the Canadian Institute of International Affairs and the Winnipeg branch of the United Nations Association of Canada, Winnipeg Rotary undertook to organize and conduct the first MUNA in Winnipeg since 1957.

Because of the success of this initial venture in international service in 1957, Model United Nations Assemblies have been held almost every year since. The Model United Nations Assembly is what the title suggests, a reproduction of the United Nations itself. * (14:30) Mr. Speaker, a number of nations that hold membership in the UN are represented by Grade 12 students. Students are selected from high schools in Minnesota, North Dakota, Wisconsin, northwest Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan, as well as local Winnipeg high schools, and sponsored by Rotary clubs in their local area.

The program has practical education value to both high school and adult participants. It provides

2104 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 each with an opportunity to examine foreign policy and to increase their knowledge of many nations. Mr. Speaker, I would like to r ecognize the participants and organizers of the 2004 Rotary Model United Nations Assembly. They are truly making a positive contribution to world citizenship. Junior Wildfire Ringette Team Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I am pleased today to share with this Assembly the success of a very talented ringette team in my constituency, the R.M. of Macdonald, the Junior Wildfire.

In March, the Junior Wildfire, a team made up of young women aged 14 to 16, travelled from the R.M. of Macdonald to St. Jean Baptiste to participate in the provincial ringette finals. I am proud to say the Junior Wildfire brought home the gold medal. Each player on the team played extremely well and worked hard to earn the success they have achieved this season. Throughout the regular season, the Junior Wildfire held first place in the Winnipeg Ringette League, finishing with the bronze medal in the finals. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this oppor- tunity to acknowledge each of the players on the Macdonald Athletes Junior Wildfire team: Jackie Dryden, Justine Shirtliff, Cari Penner, Chelsea Anseeuw, Carliegh Friesen, Rachel Campbell, Allison Kirk, Brittany Keddie, Amber Penner, Pauline Ammeter, Erika Friesen, Rhea Dufort, Cindi Lecuyer, Karina Zinn, an d coaches Kevin Mackay and Christin Zinn. It is young athletes like the Junior Wildfire who deserve our recognition not only for their success but for their participation in the community and their inspiration to others.

Participating in organized sports promotes health, positive peer relationship and in general an active lifestyle. Once again, congratulations to all Macdonald Athletes Junior Wildfire team members on their victory in the Provincial Ringette Championships. On behalf of this Assembly, I wish them all the best in future seasons. Canadian Citizenship Ceremony Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to bring attention to a very special event that took place this week. This past Tuesday, I attended at the Legislature the Canadian Citizenship Ceremony.

The event began with the judge, Arthur Miki, addressing the audience. There was also administration of the Oath of Citizenship, a presen- tation of Canadian Citizenship Certificates and greetings from the Government of Manitoba by the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism (Ms. Allan). This event is very important for us and for those new citizens who come from many corners of the world, including Afghanistan, China, Ethiopia, Germany, India, Iraq, Kenya, Morocco, Netherlands, Philippines, Poland, Rwanda, South Africa, U.S.A. and Vietnam.

Together as a community with a common humanity, we will face all our challenges, struggle side by side, preserve the legacy of Canada and Manitoba and enhance it for the generations that follow. We must continue to build on our strengths and to remember our duties and responsibilities to one another, to this province and to the generations not yet born. The contributions of all Manitobans have made our province a fine place to live, raise our children and to grow old. Many new immigrants will continue to contribute to this bright and beautiful future.

Therefore we must celebrate and appreciate our common future, as citizens of Canada and residents of this province, and to look to the future with anticipation. It is also a time to remember the importance of freedom and equality for all individuals. Together we will work toward this common good. I would like to finish by extending warm and good wishes to all the new citizens of the province and to welcome them to their new home, Manitoba. Maurice Butler Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I am pleased to share with this Assembly the recent success of one of my constituents.

Maurice Butler, a former councillor for the town of Morden, received the Lieutenant- Governor's Make A Difference Community Award for the Central Region of Manitoba. Mr. Butler received his award at the Volunteer Awards banquet on April 21, which I know some

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2105 honourable colleagues had the opportunity to attend. Receiving this award was another confirmation of Butler's commitment to volunteering, since he also received the 2002 Morden Community Service Award. At the awards banquet Butler was granted this honour because of his extensive involvement in the community of Morden. He has helped found the South Central Committee for Family Violence, set up a mini-soccer program, served as president and zone commander for the Morden Legion and emceed the ever-famous Corn and Apple Festival.

In addition to his many public involvements, Mr. Butler has also quietly gone about serving Morden residents. In the past few months he has provided transportation and emotional support to people receiving cancer treatments and generally has been willing to help out wherever he was needed. Mr. Speaker, we all kno w that volunteers are essential to building strong communities and main- taining many different programs throughout this province. Volunteers give of their time, talents, abilities and creativity in order to serve others.

It is people like Maurice Butler who truly deserve our appreciation for their sacrifices, contributions and often-overlooked efforts. I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the nominees and successful candi- dates for this year's volunteer award. We know that each nominee has had a positive impact in their local community. On behalf of all honourable members, I wish to extend our congratulations to Maurice Butler on receiving the Lieutenant-Governor's Make A Difference Community Award. Concordia Hospital Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, the Concordia Hospital Foundation's 21st Annual Gala Dinner will be taking place tonight. This impressive event highlights the leading role of Concordia Hospital in Manitoba's health system. Concordia Hospital is a faith-based hospital founded in 1928 by the Mennonite Benevolent Society. It serves the northeast part of Winnipeg and outlying rural areas with compassion and integrity for those in need. Currently Concordia offers service in medicine, surgery, orthopedic surgery, rehabilitation, geriatrics, critical care, oncology and emergency medicine.

The new state-of-the-art oncology unit was opened in 2001. Concordia will become part of the University of Manitoba teaching progra m with the expansion of the orthopedic surgery program. Mr. Speaker, this past fall Concordia Hospital celebrated 75 years of care, compassion and commit- ment in serving the community. Providing care at Concordia are over 1100 staff members, along with approximately 90 active and associate physicians. Mr. Speaker, the Concordia Hospital has a great history of success when it takes on improvement projects such as a CT scanner, the ultrasound diagnostic unit, the blood bank unit.

Currently the foundation is raising funds for the expanded hip and knee replacement program, achieving its usual high level of success. The construction of two new operating rooms and renovations associated with the expansion of the hip and knee surgery program is well underway. The Premier and I appreciate the co-operation and commitment of the foundation in promoting health and wellness in the community and meeting new challenges. We also thank the management and board of Concordia Hospital for the commitment to innovative approaches to health.

It is an honour to recognize the good work taking place at Concordia Hospital and the Concordia Hospital Foundation. Working together, we will make Concordia Hospital a model in patient care for Winnipeg and Manitoba. The Premier (Mr. Doer) and I will be attending the event and we invite other MLAs to join us at this annual gala dinner. Mr. Speaker: Grievances. Order. Is there leave for the member to finish? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. I heard a no. When I asked if there was leave, I heard a no. Order.

We are going to revert back to members' statements

2106 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 because there seems to be a doubt of my hearing. So I am going to test my hearing once more. Reverting back to members' statements, does the honourable Member for Rossmere have leave to conclude his member's statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has leave so I will get my hearing tested later, but he does have leave. * (14:40) Mr. Schellenberg: Mr. Speaker, I thank you, but I had completed my member's statement. Mr. Speaker: I had already called Grievances, so now we will move on to Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I would like to announce that the following– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear because we are dealing with government House business. Please. I have to be able to hear. Mr. Mackintosh: I would like to announce that the following bill will be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice for the meeting previously called for Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., Bill 29, The Public Trustee Amendment Act. Mr.

Speaker, in addition, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will also meet on Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., to consider the following bills: Bill 9, Manitoba Immigration Council; Bill 14, Gas Tax Accountability; Bill 20, University College of the North; Bill 26, Certified and Management Accountants. Mr. Speaker: It has been announced that the following bill will be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice for the meeting previously called for Tuesday, May 18, 2004 at 10 a.m., Bill 29, The Public Trustee Amendment Act.

It is also announced that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will also meet on Tuesday, May 18, at 10 a.m., to consider the following bills: Bill 9, The Manitoba Immigration Council Act; Bill 14, The Gas Tax Accountability Act; Bill 20, The University College of the North Act; Bill 26, The Certified and Management Accountants Act. Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please canvass the House to see if there is an agreement to change the Estimates sequence such that, for this afternoon, the Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Government Services will be considered in Room 255?

Further, would you determine if there is agreement to change the Estimates sequence for Friday so that the Estimates for Advanced Education and Training be considered in Room 255? Finally, would you see if there is consent to change the Estimates for Room 254 for Friday so that Healthy Child Manitoba and the Seniors Directorate be considered? Mr. Speaker: Okay. I will deal with them one at a time. Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence such that, for this afternoon, the Estimates for the Department of Transportation and Government Services will be considered in Room 255?

Is there agreement? [Agreed] Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence for Friday, May 14, so that the Estimates for Advanced Education and Training be considered in Room 255? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Is there unanimous consent to change the Estimates sequence for Room 254 for Friday, in order that Healthy Child Manitoba and the Seniors Directorate be considered? Is there unanimous consent? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please call Supply, Mr. Speaker?

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2107 Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 23(5), the House will now resolve into the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION, CITIZENSHIP AND YOUTH * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Education, Citizen- ship and Youth. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Prior to the first question, I would like to read for the record some items that we had taken as notice, the first item concerning Souris School in the Southwest Horizon School Division and the renovation project.

The Souris School renovation project is currently at working drawing stage. It should be noted that in the past three years approximately $1.2 million has been approved to repair the roofing problems and another $300,000 was approved to replace the heating system in Souris School. The second item taken as notice dealt with broadband access and the answer is based on the following definition of broadband: high speed Internet access provided by a commercial provider such as a local cable company or Manitoba Telecom Service. Of all the schools in Manitoba, 616 schools have the ability to access broadband service.

Of the 616 schools, 165 currently are accessing the service. Not included in the 165 figure are those schools accessing high speed service using wireless tech- nology. The divisions that access the Internet with high speed wireless service are Seine River, DSFM, St. James Assiniboia, Rive r East Transcona, Seven Oaks and Pembina Trails. We have no data on how many of the schools in each of these divisions is provided with access but it is safe to assume that it will be a very high percentage. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. The floor is open for questions. Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): A couple of issues that I would like to raise with the minister, and I am going to just pursue the line that we were on when we last sat, which had to do with transfer of tax credits from municipalities and property owners to the school divisions. I would just like the minister to outline for me the process on how this is actually going to happen. Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chairperson, the proposal announced in the 2004 Budget is to provide the resident homeowner advance portion, which is approximately $100 million, directly to school divisions in 2005.

As a matter of process, the municipalities will remit the net school taxes collected from homeowners to school divisions. School divisions will show a new provincial revenue line in their budgets and financial statements for the value of the residential homeowner advance and an offset line in equal amount against the municipal tax requirements. There will be no change to the total school division revenues as a result of this process. Mr. Derkach: Can the minister give me some indication as to the timing of the payments to the school divisions regarding the tax credits? Mr.

Bjornson: They would be paid end of June early July. Mr. Derkach: So the minister is saying that the entire amount of the tax credit will be paid to the school division for that school division within that catchment area for the entire amount at the end of June. Mr. Bjornson: That is currently the manner in which the funds are transferred to the municipalities now and when it switches to direct transfer to the school divisions, it would follow the same time frame. Mr. Derkach: Municipalities collect their taxes throughout a fiscal year.

Sometimes taxes are paid on time, sometimes they are paid on a time basis, sometimes they are not paid until the end of the fiscal year, and, yes, they carry some penalty with them but the penalty does not equal the carrying charges that a municipality has for that portion. Can the minister tell me how the municipality is going to

2108 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 be reimbursed for carrying those costs for taxes not collected? Mr. Bjornson: Well, there is the benefit that municipalities have with taxes added that allows them to collect the taxes assessed that do not have to be paid out to the school divisions. The tax is added to the rolls. So that is one of the benefits that currently exists in the tax structure and the tax rates take into account on collectibles and those in the tax rates as well. Mr. Derkach: Can the minister explain that please? Mr. Bjornson: Could I ask for clarification on the question?

Are you talking about uncollected taxes? If you could just clarify, restate your question, please. * (15:00) Mr. Derkach: Well the minister's answer is not very well defined. I am wondering whether he would expand on his answer so that I could understand exactly what it is he means by the terminology that he has used in terms of how municipalities are going to get compensated for the interest costs that they have to endure as a result of carrying people whose taxes perhaps are not paid on time. Mr.

Bjornson: What is being introduced here does not change anything with regard to the collection or non-collection of taxes under the current rules and regulations for municipalities. Mr. Derkach: Well, then, I am going to ask the minister again if he would explain the process because he indicated that the grants, or the home- owner tax rebate portion, instead of going to the municipality now, is going to go to the school division, yet the municipality is the one that endures the cost when they give the homeowner the rebate. Mr.

Bjornson: This is not a non-collection issue, as the municipalities would have received the $100- million transfer from the rebate, but now the $100- million transfer from the rebate is simply going directly to the school divisions. Mr. Derkach: The minister still has not explained the process. The municipality, as I understand it, collects the taxes from the taxpayer as they always do. In the collection of taxes is a homeowner rebate program which is a credit to the homeowner. The department, Mr. Chair, has two ways of funding school divisions: one is the ESL and one is the special levy.

The homeowner grant, or the home- owner rebate, is part of the ESL. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: No, the rebate is not part of the ESL. Mr. Derkach: Is the homeowner rebate program a credit to the ESL or is it a credit to the special levy? Mr. Bjornson: This is a credit against the special levy. Mr. Derkach: The homeowner rebate program is a credit against the special levy; that is what the minister said. Now, when the homeowner rebate is received, it is received by the municipality right now. Mr. Bjornson: That is correct. Mr. Derkach: The rebate is then forwarded to the school division by the municipality.

Mr. Bjornson: That is correct. Mr. Derkach: Do the municipalities in total transfer the equivalent of a $100 million today, or do they transfer the equivalent of $179 million? There are no trick questions here. This is straightforward. Mr. Bjornson: Yes, $100 million is the correct figure. Mr. Derkach: Can the minister tell me what happens to the $79 million? Mr. Bjornson: Individuals will pay their taxes and they will receive the credit after, through income tax. * (15:10) Mr. Derkach: That is not the question. The question is what happens to the $79 million that is Education funding as well. Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Chair, it is transferred from the municipality to the school division and it is built into the tax bill, as such. Mr. Derkach: Could the minister just repeat that answer, because I perhaps misunderstood? Mr. Bjornson: The money is paid through the tax bill and credited through their income tax. That is the process.

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2109 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, either the minister is not understanding my question or he is confused, because what I am asking for is, at the present time, the homeowner rebate portion is worth $179 million in total. The Province has said that it will transfer $100 million directly to school divisions. That means there is $79 million of credit owed to the school divisions that has to be forwarded to them in a different way. My question is, how is this going to be forwarded to the school division. Mr.

Bjornson: The expenditure level for '04-05 for both the residential homeowner advance and the income tax portion of the property tax credit is approximately $179.4 million as identified. The $100 million goes to the residential homeowner advance which, as I said, had previously been forwarded directly to the municipalities but will now be forwarded directly to the school divisions. The remaining $79.4 million is paid by the individual taxpayer to the municipality and the municipality pays to the school divisions. Individuals are credited with that amount through the income tax system. That would be the process.

Mr. Derkach: I think the minister got it right. So the individual taxpayer being the landlord, because this $79 million I would presume is all rental property, housing and those kinds of units. Rental and seniors basically. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: That is correct. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, so it is the landlord who pays the taxes and in the rent payment to the landlord it is assumed that part of that is education tax, so the individual who is renting property gets a credit on their income tax statement. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: That is correct. Mr.

Derkach: Having said that, the municipalities do receive that $79 million from the taxpayer. Mr. Bjornson: Yes, they do. Mr. Derkach: The taxpayer then gets it back in a rebate program. Mr. Bjornson: Some of them. Mr. Derkach: Under the present system, that $79 million is credited to the municipalities by govern- ment. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: The only change would be on the residential homeowner advance and nothing changes on the portion of the property tax credit that flows through the income tax system. Nothing changes there. Mr.

Derkach: I am aware of that, but I am asking the minister how that $79 million that is not going to be transferred to the school divisions right now as part of the direct transfer gets transferred to the school divisions after the new process is in place. Mr. Bjornson: The new process will not change the $79 million in the way that money flows. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I want to know from the minister whether or not the total amount of tax credit that a municipality has on its books, total amount of tax credit the municipality gives out to its taxpayers throughout this province equals $179 million.

Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: The municipal portion is $100 million, approximately $100 million. The municipal tax credit portion is $100 million. Mr. Derkach: It is my understanding and according to the printed Estimates or the Budget, the total amount of tax credit in Manitoba is equal to $179 million. That is the amount of money, education tax money, if you like, that is credited back to homeowners, and the Government makes up that $179 million to school divisions. Previously, that amount, as I understand it, Mr. Chair, was paid to municipalities, then transferred to school divisions.

The Government has said that it is not going to transfer the $179 million, it is going to transfer $100 million of the $179 million directly to school divisions. I want to know how $79 million gets into the hands of the school divisions. * (15:20) Mr. Bjornson: Well, what we have here is two different types of tax credits where the $100 million, as I said before, is part of the residential homeowner advance but the 79.4 goes through the income tax system, and again that is something that is paid to the

2110 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 municipality, the municipality then to the school division and credited to the individual through the income tax system. Mr. Derkach: Either the minister is confused or I am confused. Maybe both. I would just like to ask the minister how the $79 million, it was part of the whole global amount, I do not care how it goes to the individual taxpayer, that is not my issue, my issue is that $79-million portion, how does that get from the Government to the school division? Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Chair, the $79.4-million portion in question is paid to the municipality by the taxpayer; then from the municipality it is paid to the school division; and then the individual is credited through the income tax system for that balance. Mr. Derkach: Okay, so let me understand this clearly. The $79 million was always collected by the municipalities from the property owners. The renters got their credit through the income tax system. Therefore, the municipality was the one who was responsible for transferring the money over to the school division because that was not a credit, that was simply taxes collected.

A hundred million dollars in total across the province was money that was paid directly by homeowners, residential people. This same amount of money that was paid to municipalities, the exact same amount of money that was collected by municipalities from the Pr ovince previously is now going to be collected by the school division. Mr. Bjornson: That is correct. Mr. Derkach: Is the minister telling me that the money used to be paid to municipalities by the end of June? Mr. Bjornson: I understand it has traditionally been the end of June, early July. Mr. Derkach: We will not argue about a month here at all.

Now that money was then forwarded to school divisions, not immediately, but there was a formula in place where I think the municipalities forwarded the money to school divisions three or four times a year. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: The regulation requires that those funds be remitted to the school divisions 30 days after collection. Mr. Derkach: That the hundred million dollars be transferred 30 days after it is paid by the Government to the municipalities. Is that what the minister is saying? Mr.

Bjornson: Yes, the regulation requires that 30 days after collecting, the taxes, including the $400 tax credit, would have to have been turned over to the school division. Mr. Derkach: But that is a play on words, Mr. Chair, because municipalities collect their taxes from taxpayers throughout the year. Now the bulk of them might be paid when they are due, but I know that municipalities report significant amounts of money of taxes not collected that are, in what we might call, they are not in arrears, but they are not collected until sometimes in the later part of the year.

My under- standing is that, when those taxes are collected, instead of remitting them on a piecemeal basis, there is, I do not know if it is an agreement or a formula, where municipalities submit them to the school divisions at established intervals throughout the year. Mr. Bjornson: Yes, all taxes collected have to be submitted to the school divisions 30 days after the due date, and there is another deadline for all taxes due to be remitted by January 31. Mr. Derkach: Well, the minister is telling me taxes due to a school division from a municipality are to be paid 30 days after they are collected. Mr.

Bjornson: Yes, after they are collected. Mr. Derkach: So is the minister saying that taxes that are collected have to be remitted 30 days after they are collected. Can the minister tell me when the portion that represents the homeowner rebate must be remitted to the school division from the municipality at the present time? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, nothing has changed around the regulations for submission of the taxes to the school divisions based on the collection by the municipalities.

They are required, 30 days after the due date and the collection, to submit their taxes to the school divisions with the final deadline for all taxes to be submitted the 31st of January. The only difference would be the $400 tax credit flowing directly to the school divisions from the Finance Department as opposed to going through the municipalities.

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2111 * (15:30) Mr. Derkach: The minister is saying that the only difference that is going to take place now is that school divisions will get their money 30 days sooner than they would have had the money been trans- ferred over to the municipality. Mr. Bjornson: With respect to the $100 million attributed to the $400 property tax credit, that is correct. The school divisions would be getting their money earlier. Mr.

Derkach: Can I ask the minister whether or not the homeowner tax rebate was previously calculated as the Province's contribution to division education programming? Mr. Bjornson: The education property tax credit was transferred to 2000-2 001 and is indicated as such in our FRAME Report. Mr. Derkach: I think, as the statistics indicate today, the province makes up about 57 percent of education funding. The rest of the money comes from the special levy and other revenues I suppose. Can the minister indicate whether that $100 million was calculated as part of the 57 percent previously? Mr.

Bjornson: No, it was not part of that. The adjusted total in the FRAME Report indicates that it would be part of the 72.2 percent. Mr. Derkach: Now that it is being transferred directly to the school divisions, is it going to be part of the calculation of that portion of provincial funding of education? Mr. Bjornson: Yes, it would be indicated as part of the operating fund. Mr. Derkach: So what would that $100 million translate to in terms of percentage of funding of education in this fiscal year with the relative number right now being at 57 percent? Mr. Bjornson: It would be 64 percent. Mr.

Derkach: The Government can now, without giving the divisions any more money, claim that its percentage of funding to school divisions has increased from 57 percent to 64 percent. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: This more accurately represents the funding of schools. The intent was for transparency by taking this $400 credit and applying it directly to the school divisions as opposed to going through the municipalities and having the municipalities submit it to the school divisions. We collect that. We take that $400 property tax credit and the $100 million goes directly to the schools, so yes. Mr.

Derkach: The minister said yes, so now we have a situation where, without putting an extra dime into education, the Province can claim that its funding of education has gone from 57 to 64 percent and can claim that this is more transparent and more accountable. Yet they have not spent an extra dime on funding education in a more equitable and fair manner. Is that correct? Mr. Bjornson: In five years, as you know, we have contributed $105 million into the base.

We had a significant contribution to education, and it is a way of acknowledging the realties of how education is funded with respect to the $400 credit that has been applied to offset the support levies as assessed by municipalities. We are reducing our education support levy, so, yes, we are providing transparency and providing a truer picture of how the Province is funding education. Indeed, $105 million into the base is a very significant contribution. * (15:40) Mr. Derkach: I am not interested in the minister's smoke-and-mirror answer. I am simply asking for the facts.

The fact is that, in this particular instance, we are talking about the tax credit here. Without putting an additional cent into ed ucation, the Province can now claim and will claim that its funding support to education has increased from 57 percent to 64 percent, which the minister said yes to and it is done under the guise of the minister's, quote unquote, "transparency and accountability measure." Mr. Bjornson: This does not change the 72.2 percent as identified in the FRAME budget when you consider capital, the Pensioners' School Tax Assistance and the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund contributions.

It does not change that figure. It simply provides more transparency in how we are funding education. Mr. Derkach: The minister is at the edge of babbling here because I am not talking about

2112 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 72 percent. I understand the issues the minister talks about when he talks about capital support, when he talks about teacher retirement. Let us not hide behind fictitious numbers. We are talking about direct support to those elements of education that have been measured, not just in this last four years, but have made up the basket, if you like, of measurement for the percentage of funding of those educational programs that has been constant over time.

We have always excluded that portion that makes up the 72 percent, the capital, the teachers' allowance fund, and so forth. We are talking here about that 57 percent that is common to the measurement of how much funding the Province gives vis-à-vis school divisions. That is the portion I am talking about. All I was doing was trying to clarify that this portion now is going to rise from 57 percent to 64 percent because the Province is now going to transfer the tax credit money directly to the school divisions. The minister said yes to that. That is a fair response; that is the accurate response.

My only comment to that was that we have to make it clear to the public and to Manitobans that this 64 percent was achieved, not through additional funding for education, but, Mr. Chair, simply through an accounting transfer and a transfer of how money is transferred into the school division's pocket. Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, this is not new money.

It is providing better disclosure and transparency, and I would take exception to the reference of fictitious numbers; $100 million is a real number and it is something that we are provid ing, better transparency to Manitobans as to how education is being funded in this province. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I thank the minister for finally coming around to acknowledging that. I was not trying to play games with the minister here. I know education funding is a complex issue.

Certainly, over time, funding to education has been an issue that taxpayers, th at educators, that school boards have found somewhat problematic, not only in the amount of money that goes into education and such items as textbooks, but also the place where the money is collected from. So I appreciate that the minister is forthright in those responses. I have a question in a different area and it has to do with textbooks. It almost seems, in today's day and age, intolerable that we are allowing $10, I believe it is, per student, per textbook, per year.

Can the minister tell me whether in fact my number is correct or whether that number of $10 per student per year has increased beyond that? Mr. Bjornson: The textbook grant is $50 per pupil per year. Mr. Derkach: As I understand it, the textbook grant is also including in it more than just the classroom textbook. It includes library and video materials as well, does it not? Mr. Bjornson: The library grant is a separate grant. It had been $90 per student, per year for a number of years, and we raised it to $92 per student with our recent 2% funding announcem ent increase.

So that was one of the priorities that we placed on resourcing our libraries, and it was increased from $90 to $92 per pupil per year. Mr. Derkach: Can I ask the minister whether or not he is saying that the $50 is exclusively for student textbooks? Mr. Bjornson: That is for all resource materials in the classroom. Mr. Derkach: I did not understand the minister's response. Just repeat it, that is all. Mr. Bjornson: The $50 per pupil is for all resource materials in the classroom. Mr. Derkach: So I go back to my first question.

Is it accurate to say that approximately $10 per student per year is for pure textb ook materials for classroom purposes? Mr. Bjornson: There is flexibility in that grant. The whole of the amount could be spent on textbooks, depending on the local priorities or the priorities of the schools, the principals, whatever the case might be. So the entire amount could be for textbooks, or it could be broken down for a variety of resources as identified as priorities by the school. Mr.

Derkach: As I understand it, a classroom teacher would have to decide whether or not this entire amount of money is going to be spent for new textbooks and/or for other resource materials that are required to teach a particular curriculum. Is that correct?

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2113 Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chairperson, that would be part of a general discussion with staff and principals to decide what their priorities would be and what the most appropriate method would be to resource the programs that they are offering. Mr. Derkach: Can the minister tell me how long the $50-per-student amount has been in place and when it was last increased? Mr. Bjornson: It has been in place since the new formula was introduced in '92-93 and it was last increased in '96-97. Mr.

Derkach: So there has not been an increase in this grant since this Government has been in office and I would acknowledge, first of all, that regardless of which government has been in office, this amount is absolutely so far out of date today, that it does not make sense. We have had significant numbers of new programs introduced into the classroom. Is there any recognition of classroom textbook costs when new curriculum is introduced into a classroom? Mr. Bjornson: Mr.

Chair, again, the $50-per-student grant is flexible and discretionary with respect to the priorities that are identified by the staff, by the principal, by the school division and how to resource their courses, whether those courses are new courses that are introduced or wh ether they are existing courses that they care to expand or deliver for the first time, whatever the case might be. * (15:50) But there are also other th ings that we have been doing with respect to computer technology and, as I mentioned at the very beginning of this afternoon's Estimates, the number of schools that are now accessing broadband and Internet, so there are a number of other media now that are available that students can use.

We are also providing a lot of professional development opportunities for teachers to look at alternative methods of course delivery as well. I mean, in my experience in the classroom and as a matter of personal history, I was using social studies textbooks that were quite dated during the 1990s, and, as such, just had to be more creative in how we chose to deliver the courses, and made very good use of the resources that were available to us. Certainly, for the number of resources that are available, you cannot spend enough on these resources. Mr.

Chair, there are so many things that are available to our students, but that is a matter of priorities being identified by the schools, by the principals, by the staff in terms of how they chose to resource those courses. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chair, I understand that there are new technologies available to teachers, to students, to all of us, but I also understand that $50 does not buy today what it bought in 1996 or '97. I am quite concerned that as the minister responsible for the education of children, this grant for individual textbooks and resources has not increased at all since 1997.

Regardless of computers, regardless of Internet broadband, et cetera, I am talking about raw textbooks, and what we are finding today and what I am sensing from my constituents is that there is a growing concern from parents who are seeking a quality of education for their children about the fact that children are not able to have a textbook in the classroom. As a matter of fact, some of them have to share, others have to copy, sometimes they Xerox, some- times they are just told, "Sorry, we don't have the money to buy you textbooks, but this is the program we have to teach." Mr.

Bjornson: Just as it is the priority of the school or the teachers that is reflected in how they choose to use those resources, that $50-per-student grant, we also have our priorities as a government to look at how we expend our resources in other areas by increasing funding to special needs, to Aboriginal education, to English as a Second Language, early numeracy, early literacy.

So, just as we have priorities identified by schools and they make those choices around how to use those resources, we as a government have identified priorities where we are investing more of our funds to address the educational needs of our students. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I am going to paraphrase what the minister just said. He said, "School divisions have to have their priorities and we have our priorities." He talks about Aboriginal education, he talks about special needs, as though the rest does

2114 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 not matter. So we are going to bring everybody's level down in terms of the quality of education because our priorities are over here and not over here. I find that appalling. Any Minister of Education would know that your prio rities are to enhance the opportunities for education for all students, whether they are above average, average, below average, whether they are Aboriginal, Ukrainian, German, whether they are black, yellow, white would not matter.

We are not a country that practises apartheid, and for the minister to say that our priorities are over here and not over here is absolutely appalling. The minister said, "School divisions have to set their priorities. We as a government have set ours, and our priorities are special needs and our priorities are Aboriginal education." That is a damnation. Mr. Chair, I cannot believe what I just heard from the minister.

I mean, regardless of whether I have a child that is an exceptional student or not, that child has to have the best possible opportunities that we as a province and we as a society can afford, but to say that is not a priority is not a very wise statement from the minister in my view. Mr. Bjornson: I do not believe that is what I said, and I think our Government's priorities in education are very clear. We have put $105 million into the base. I lived through the nineties as a teacher where I saw minus 2%, minus 2.6%, 0%, minus 2%, 0% announcements on education as a priority.

I saw during the 1990s over 800 teachers who retired or were let go and not replaced, thus impacting the ability to deliver quality education in our province. I saw a number of initiatives by members opposite that were a direct attack on the teaching profession. This is a government that values education and that value is reflected in the actions of this Govern- ment. A $105-million investment– An Honourable Member: But you segregate the races. Mr. Bjornson: I cannot believe that I am hearing this from the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), comparison to apartheid. This is unbelievable. It is unbelievable. Mr.

Chair, we have identified our priorities. We are investing in our priorities. You started to talk about $50 textbook grants, it is the priorities of the school to decide which resources they use– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. It is getting difficult to hear the person who has the floor. So, if you wish to speak, you can go back there or out in the hall. All right. I would like to hear the person who has the floor speak. Honourable Minister, you have the floor. Mr.

Bjornson: I was referring to the $50-per-student allotment as schools identified their needs and their priorities with how to resource programs. As a government, it is our purview to identify our priorities in education which, as I mentioned, include increased funding to special needs; increased support to special needs; increased funding for Aboriginal academic achievement and Aboriginal action plan, which was something that was sadly missing during the 1990s; English as a second language supports; early numeracy.

Our list of priorities go on and on with respect to addressing the educational needs of our students. In fact, we even go beyond the classroom and start early with our Healthy Child initiative, looking at the holistic approach to education, dealing with providing prenatal support for parents, giving the child the healthiest possible start; having early childhood learning indicators where approximately 70 percent of Manitoba students now are assessed in the readiness to learn program before they go to kindergarten.

We have our priorities very much focussed on education, and I am very proud to be a part of the Government that has made education such a priority after going through what I went through as a teacher, as a professional, in the nineties. Mr. Derkach: I think it is a sad comment on the minister when he is questioned on his own approach and his own philosophies for him not to be able to defend it, but to be able to hearken back to the nineties. The reality of the nineties is there, and I am not going to debate the nineties. We are now in the

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2115 new millennium and this is the reality before us today. It is the minister that has accountability for what happens today. That is what we are questioning here in Estimates. It is too bad that the minister has such a low esteem of how he can defend his Estimates that he cannot defend his Estimates on their merit, but, indeed, harkens back to the eighties, the nineties. We have seen this in the House, Mr. Chair, and it is a sad comment on the minister. I think I will just leave it at that.

If the minister wants to make a final comment, we can proceed from there. * (16:00) Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Chair, once again, I would like to put on the record how proud I am to be a part of a government that values education and values education starting with the holistic approach, the Healthy Child initiative, as I said.

That value of education is reflected in a $700,000 commitment to the Early Childhood Development Initiative, 70 percent of our students being assessed before they go into the school system to see if they are ready to learn, looking at assessment models that provide meaningful feedback so we can have a meaningful look at our system and identify needs within our system, providing predictable, affordable, sustainable funding with $105 million over the course of five years, and our commitment to post-secondary education and reducing and freezing the tuition fees.

I am very proud to be a part of this Government and the value that this Government puts on education. I appreciate that the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) has given me an opportunity to comment as such. Mr. Chairperson: The floor is open for questions. I think we are ready for passing the resolutions. I will read Resolution 16.2. Resolution 16.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $25,042,100 for Education, Citizenship, and Youth, School Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 16.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,387,800 for Education, Citizenship, and Youth, Bureau de l'éducation française, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 16.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $182,664,100 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Education and School Tax Credits, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 16.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $847,755,900 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Support to Schools, for th e fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 16.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,004,700 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, MB4Youth, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 16.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $31,459,800 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Capital Grants for School Divisions, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 16.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $503,800 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. The last item to consider for the Estimates of this department is 16.1.(

a) Minister's Salary, contained in Resolution 16.1. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this last item. The floor is open for questions. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairperson, I think this minister has demonstrated, and although he is a new minister,

2116 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 he has demonstrated that he does not value the importance of resources to classrooms and, he has, unfortunately, left a very important part of education to the whims of the school divisions to try to wrestle with. An Honourable Member: To the whims of teachers. Mr. Derkach: Yes, and the whims of teachers. Mr.

Chairperson, the teachers have a very difficult time in trying to prepare and present programs to students when they do not have the resources to buy the necessary classroom resources that are required to present those programs so the minister has a responsibility here. Mr. Chairperson: There is too much talking and we cannot hear the speaker very well. I can still hear people talking and if I cannot hear the speaker, we do not know what is happening. Member for Russell, you have the floor. Mr. Derkach: As I was saying, Mr.

Chairperson, the minister, a former educator who prides himself as an educator, and I am confid ent that he is a good educator. I am not going to reflect on his teaching ability whatsoever, and he has proven himself as a teacher, as well. That is not the issue. The issue here is an issue of management of a department which is responsible for the well-being of the educational qualities and opportunities of children throughout this province.

I know the minister has to balance that with his staff in terms of how the resources are shared, but there is one area that is fairly important to teachers and to classroom children and to parents. That is the whole area of direct reading textbook resources to those children. We can talk about implementing new technologies, we could talk about broadband, we could talk about Internet, we can talk about all of those things. This Government, Mr. Chairperson, has made an about-face.

When they came into government, they were very proud of the fact that they nixed the YNN program but this year they are now launching into partnerships with private industry and allowing for private industry to come into the classrooms with such things as computer software, et cetera. The deal with Microsoft is the one that I am referring to. Now, that is not a bad deal. We, on this side of the House, supported that.

We were, when we were in government, constantly looking at opportunities that would allow for students to access those types of technologies, those types of resources, by partnering with the private sector. Microsoft is not a public-sector, it is a private- sector company, and they are out there to make money. But they, as do other companies, feel an obligation because they know that investing in our children is an important part of growing our society and ensuring that we have a knowledgeable, well- informed workforce for the future of this country. That is certainly something that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Bjornson), I know, as an individual, wants, but he is restricted in terms of the Budget. Also, I think the Government's philosophy comes into play here, and the minister has to abide by that as well. I feel very strongly that the whole area of textbook and resources into the classroom is an area that is very severely underfunded. I felt that way when we were in government too, to be honest with you. That was an area that we somehow do not seem to have an ability to address and I wish we could. * (16:10) I want to make a statement about that for the record here in this Chambe r.

On reflecting on the minister's salary, I will not move a motion to reduce the minister's salary to the cost of a textbook or the cost of the grant that is afforded for each student. That would be probably a message that we would send to the minister so that he would be cognizant of that for the next year. I simply want to talk about that issue and simply put it on the record that, I think, as an educator, I want this minister to focus his attention to that area, b ecause I think any resources that we can help to provide to the classroom teacher is only going to assist in the overall education.

I do not care, as I said previously, whether it is to Aboriginal education, or whether it is to a particular cultural part of the educational experience in a school. I believe that those are important elements of education. I believe that we need to enhance things like cultural education. We need to enhance the arts part of education. Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): You are the one that wanted to abolish all those things in the election campaign.

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2117 Mr. Derkach: Well, that is an important point that the Member for Burrows makes because during the election campaign, as a matter of fact, I was quoted as wanting to cut those th ings, and the reality was I was saying the exact opposite. I will explain. An Honourable Member: You were misquoted. Mr. Derkach: Yes, I was not quoted. As a matter of fact, there was no quote from me. It was just the– An Honourable Member: Misparaphrase. Mr. Derkach: That is right. It was the miscon- ception of the Free Press and Mr.

Nick Martin of the Free Press , but let me explain why I am strong on that part of it. I come from a family that is very strong in terms of the performing arts and in terms of artistic education. As a matter of fact, I have a son who is an artist and I, as well, was a performing artist at one time as well, so, Mr. Chair, in that regard, you cannot say– An Honourable Member: Were you a dancer? Mr. Derkach: No, I am not a dancer. Mr. Chair, nobody can say that I do not value the importance of the performing and the cultural arts.

To me those are very important, so that is the area that I see that we need to put some focus on in terms of enhancing education. Secondly, I believe that we need to expand the whole area of music in the schools, and I do not know how we would do that. One way is to partner, perhaps, with–and I go back to the whole concept of partnering with communities, partnering with the private sector. In my own situation, we do not have a music program in our school.

What we were blessed with in our community was an individual who gave of herself 150 percent to make sure that students would have the benefit of a music program. It is in that way that my son became a musician and an artist. It was because he was able to take advantage of that individual's skills and her commitment to education. For that reason, I have always been very strong in terms of wanting those kinds of programs as a part of the integral component of education. I would look at the minister today and say that we should launch– and this is not a partisan thing.

I think it is time for us to launch an investigation into how we can expand in the province of Manitoba those kinds of oppor- tunities for children throughout this province. An Honourable Member: We are already doing that. Mr. Derkach: The minister says he is already doing that and, certainly, he will not ever see me condemn him for an action in that regard. It was interesting during the election campaign as well. I might say, that a week after that story came out where the Free Press said they misunderstood the whole issue completely and thought that I was against all of these programs, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) actually came out with a policy that was exactly what I was trying to promote in the province. That is okay, because I think all of that is for the benefit of children regardless of who wants to take credit for that. It is not important. The important

part is that children receive the benefit of that program. I come back to this whole issue of the $50 per student for resource materials. That, I find, is really inadequate and, as I said, if I were to move a motion here on the minister's salary, that is the area that I would focus on, because that is the area that I would say needs to be addressed by the minister, Mr. Chair, needs to be improved for the ability of teachers to be able to deliver an appropri ate kind of curriculum and enhance the opportunities for our children. I leave it at that and I will not make the motion. Mr.

Chairperson: Any further questions from the floor? If not, I will read Resolution 16.1. into the record. Resolution 16.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,331,400 for Education, Citizenship and Youth, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2005. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Education, Citizenship and Youth. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade.

2118 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and critics the opportunity to prepare for the commence- ment of the next set of Estimates? [Agreed] We will have a short recess. The committee recessed at 4:16 p.m. ________ The committee resumed at 4:23 p.m. Mr. Cris Aglugub, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TRADE The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Cris Aglugub): Will the Committee of Supply come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates of the Department of Intergovern- mental Affairs and Trade. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Inter- governmental Affairs and Trade): Yes, I do. It is my pleasure to present for the committee members' consideration Estimates for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade for 2004 and 2005 fiscal year. I will try to keep my remarks brief. The Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade formed in the recent government reorganization in November 2003.

Trade and local government initiatives have been consolidated into a single department recognizing that strong local governments are critical to Manitoba's position in the Canadian, North American and world economy. This was also done to co-ordinate resources and expertise in trade and international activities within the Government of Manitoba to maximize effectiveness and ensure consistency with corporate strategies and to provide a single window access and face to the Government of Manitoba's international activities. Mr.

Acting Chair, also, as part of this reorganization, programs that were formally within the department have been transferred to other portfolios. The Manitoba Water Services Board and the Conservation Districts Program are now housed within the new Department of Water Stewardship. Rural economic development programs such as the REDI-funded programs and the co-operative development program are now in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives. Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Chairperson, in the Chair The new Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade is embarking on several priority initiatives this fiscal year.

In the planning area, critical initiatives in the area of planning demonstrate our ongoing commit- ment to providing local governments an effective land use planning framework. Our planning resources are focussed on the following priority areas. We have introduced Bill 40, The Planning Amendment Act, to encourage municipalities and planning districts to do better up- front land use planning, especially for agriculture and specifically, for livestock operations.

We have worked very closely with the Association of Manitoba Municipalities and other stakeholders to develop a bill that fairly balances the interest of the province, municipalities, producers and the public. We are taking action and partnership with municipalities on the Capital Region. In support of the recent historic signing of the memorandum of understanding by mayors and reeves of the Capital Region, including the mayor of Winnipeg, the Province established a steering committee to guide the development of a stronger partnership among the Capital Region municipalities.

We will be working closely with stakeholders and the public, Mr. Chair, to strengthen planning legislation and make it more responsive to the needs of our communities. The review of The Planning Act and provincial land use policies will ensure that Manitoba's planning frame- work meets the needs of planning authorities and citizens of the province. Infrastructure: Mr. Chai rperson, in recognition of the infrastructure needs of our communities, the department supports infrastructure renewal initiatives in local communities across Manitoba, including Winnipeg.

The current Canada-M anitoba Infrastructure Program along with upcoming new initiatives provides for a sustained federal-provincial commit- ment to renew infrastructure of all types, sizes and levels throughout the entire province. We are actively negotiating two new agreements with Ottawa to provide additional support for both Winnipeg and rural infrastructure needs.

May 13, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2119 A new Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program, under what Ottawa calls the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, will primarily focus on rural and northern Manitoba. We expect Manitoba to be the first province to sign the new federal-provincial agreement, with the application process to begin shortly thereafter.

In support of the city of Winnipeg infrastructure, we announced funding in March for three significant strategic infrastructure projects under the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund: the Kenaston underpass, upgrades to the Winnipeg waste water treatment system and the first phase of a bus rapid transit system. Economic development: Building on the success of previous Manitoba-Canada Economic Develop- ment Partnership Agreement, a new five-year $50- million Canada-Manitoba Economic Partnership Agreement was announced in March. Mr.

Chair, the new EPA provides matching federal-provincial contributions in partnership with stakeholders to strengthen Manitoba's economic diversity by focussing on two strategic priorities: building our economy and sustainable communities. To date, federal and provincial governments have announced support for one EPA project, some $1 million for Forintek's Value-Added and a wood technology program, Mr. Chair, with a major focus on enhancing opportunities for Aboriginal and northern communities in the wood products sector.

Support to Municipalities: Key to the long-term sustainability of our communities are strong, healthy municipalities that are equipped to address the emerging challenges of our rapidly changing society. Departmental initiatives in '04-05 will strengthen the local government framework.

Examples include the Tools for Change program developed in partnership with the AMM and redeveloping our Web site and statistics publications to provide local governments with timely, relevant and helpful information and management reports. * (16:30) A review of The Local Authorities Election Act will be undertaken to modernize local election act laws that are severely out of date and no longer in sync with today's available technology. We plan to have new local election laws in place for the 2006 general election. Mr.

Chair, we are gearing up for the province- wide 2006 general prope rty assessment which ensures municipalities have a stable and a predictable tax base. As municipalities across Canada are talking about a new deal for municipalities, Manitoba continues to lead the country in innovative funding partnerships. Our financial support to local governments gives municipalities more flexibility to provide the services its citizens want, while keeping property taxes reasonable.

Our unique, unconditional tax-sharing program, the Provincial-Municipal Tax-Sharing Program is the foundation to our joint financial relationship and the envy of municipalities in other provinces. We also continue to share on an unconditional basis video lottery terminal revenues with municipalities. These funds help meet locally determined priorities, supporting projects like recreational facilities, community organizations, community development services or economic development projects.

Winnipeg: In Winnipeg, priorities continue to be infrastructure renewal and downtown revitalization in the knowledge that a strong, vibrant capital city is critical to the province's health overall. Funding under Neighbourhoods Alive! is making a contribution to community-driven revitali- zation in inner city neighbourhoods in decline. Mr. Chair, the same success is evident in Brandon and Thompson, where Neighbourhoods Alive! is also being delivered.

Building on other success, tripartite agreements, the department is working with Ottawa and Winnipeg on a new five-year urban development agreement for Winnipeg that will commit $75 million for identified urban development priorities. And through the Urban Development Initiative we continue to support key community economic development initiatives in Winnipeg. Trade: On the Trade side of the department, key programming areas are Manitoba trade and inter- national business development and federal-provincial and international relations. Mr.

Chair, Manitoba Trade and International Business Development, Manitoba is Canada's most

2120 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 2004 diversified economy: manufacturing, agriculture, mining, electrical power and finance. In 2003, Manitoba's exports totalled $8.8 billion in goods. Since 1994, Manitoba's foreign exports have increased by nearly 92 percent. Mr. Chair, foreign merchandise and services exports are a growing percentage of our provincial GDP. In 1992, this accounted for 20.2 percent of our GDP, while in 2003 foreign exports accounted for 28.6 percent. The United States continues to be Manitoba's leading export market, accounting for nearly 79 percent of our exports.

With the support of Manitoba Trade, Manitoba companies are being encouraged to diversify their export markets. In 2003, countries such as China, Hong Kong, Mexico, Australia and France increased their demands for Manitoba products. This reflects the growing successes of Manitoba companies in international markets beyond the U.S. Exports to non-U.S. markets increased by 3.6 percent from 2002 to 2003. Manitoba Trade will continue to have a geographic focus, in addition to increasing its sector-spe

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-38b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 38b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2d0d78f6f13f9de7304d3251d19f0778b0910611

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