LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 17 June, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Order please . We are cnsidering the Estimates . We are on Capital Expenditures, Item No. 8, Page 99. The M ember for Minnedosa . MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has a letter from Mr. Henry Marti n at Rivers, requiring some attention on the water problem on the corner of 250 in the southwest corner of Fourth Avenue in the Town of Rivers. I'll wait till he gets the answer. I thin k maybe the Minister has an answer for us, Mr.

Chai rman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we were asking about a number of specific projects before the supper­ hour break . PR 206 as the Member for Springfield and the Member for Minnedosa were asking about , I believe. From PTH 1 to PR 207 , the work is presently under way, contrac t ors on site and working should be completed early this summer. In the case of Roland Neault, who was a person mentioned as an individual who had the misfortune of having gotten stuck with a home 40 feet from the road .

As was explained, his property was purchased by mutual consent, without a dispute , and the Neault home , I'm advised, is approximately 95 feet from the new right­ of-way limit, as opposed to the road. So the 40 feet I guess looks a lot closer when you're driving along than it actually is. MR. D. BLAKE: He might have been measuring in metr ic. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, this is feet yet though. He might have measured it in centimetres . The Newda le Access, purchase of necessary right ­ of-way not complete , despite the fact that it' s in carry­ over for construction.

In this particular case , the land wasn't acquired as quickly or easily as thought , because there 's an estate involved there, so that's holding it up when expropriation is taking place. With regard to 67 and PTH 7, the understanding we have is that there's no work , or nothing happening there, and probably the member might have been referring to 67 and PTH 8. There the ju nction is closed because of concrete work at the intersection, and it should be opened shortly - next wee k o r possibly by the weekend . I have no comment from the staff as to whether the people are working hard or not.

I would assume that they are; but if they're not , that private sector won't be making any money on it, apparently, because it's a private contractor that's doing the job. MR. D. BLAKE: The complainant had checked with the department in Selkirk and was told they 'd be finished last Monday and then he was told it would be Tuesday and then Friday, and it 's still closed this week. There must a problem of some type, I imag ine. HON. J. PLOHMAN : Okay, so those are the quest ions . Was there ano ther one? MR. D. BLAKE: I imagine it'll be a good job when they get it finished. You have a letter , Mr.

Minister , from Mr. Marti n, in Rivers . He was complaining about a water problem at th e junction of 250 and Fourth Avenue in the Town of Rivers . I just wondered what had been done about that seeing as I had his letter come up to the top of my notes on my desk there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It just rose to the top all on its own , eh? Mr. Chai rman , we get letters quite often from people and with copies to the Opposition M LAs on many occasions, so they should be aware of a lot of things that are taking place. I don't recall that specific letter, nor ...

Well, it's here, but I don 't recall what exactly we asked , I guess , a draft response. So the department will look into it and see whether there's any responsibility and draft a letter, whatever the date was. What was the date on that letter? 994 MR. D. BLAKE: No date, but it's a couple of months ago. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we should have something out to him very shortly anyway. MR. D. BLAKE: After the spring runoff anyway . That's what created the problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman , the people of St. Alphonse , on 532 , there are mailboxes there.

The 532 passes right through town and the mailboxes are put on the west side on the sid ewalk . They have inquired already if there's any chance of them getting any pavement between, say the road and the sidewa lk. As it stands now, they come out of ch urc h and whatever, they go get their mail and they walk right through the muck and everything . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there is no record of concerns about that particula r problem that anyone can recall at the present time. So what they should do is write me a letter or write to the district - write to myself , and we'll forward it

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 on and make sure that we get a report on what the problem is and see whether there 's something that can be done by the province . MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, just to clarify, these people have been down to Boissevain to see the district man down there. He is the guy who rejected it, and now they're just wondering if it's possible that they may go right up to the Minister. He doesn't want to set a precedent , he says. If we started paving that little bit, every gas station 's going to want to get a little bit paved . They just wondered, could they approach the Minister on this. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: It sounds like it may be an oddball situation or something unusual that isn't normally done. We would have to look at it to see whether there is justification that would warrant the work in that case. I can't really comment until I get a letter from them . Yes, they can send me a letter on it, and we'll ask for information on it. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman , the 253 just west of Glenora, I believe he was approached with a pet ition on this, straight south of Baldur. HON. J. PLOHMAN: South of Baldur. Oh yes, there's a

section there that they want surfaced, I think . We had met with that group and they provided us with the information. It was very seriously considered in this budget year; as a matter of fact , one of the last projects taken out of the program because of the limited funds available . So it was given very serious considerati on and will be considered again for next year. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, the 346 straight north of Margaret with the hairpin curves , I'm led to believe this has all been surveyed, the rights-of-way, the acquisi tions, whatever, they've all been taken up.

Is there going to be any work done on the 346? HON. J. PLOHMAN: It's down south of Boissevain , is that right? MR. D. ROCAN: No, just north of Boissevain, just north of Margaret. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , the member may be talking about the

section between Ninga and Margaret .. . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the member may be talkimg about the

section between Ninga and Margaret; or he is talking about 346 or is he talking about the

section between Margaret and Nesbitt, between 23 and No. 2? MR. D. ROCAN: Right . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay, in there , what is programmed in the projected three-year program is a new river crossing and approaches on the Souris River - (Interjection) - to replace the bridge there on 346 . That's what's programmed. I understand the prop erty has been acquired already and that is in the program 995 or projected and will we brought forward in, I believe , '88 or '87 construction year. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to bring to the Minister 's attention - during restriction time most of the fertilizer which comes out of Brandon already - and No. 13 which is never restricted, 13, 3, No. 10, and the whole area south of Trans-Canada between those two highway s; they have no way of getting up to Trans-Canada with a full load . Is any conside rat ion being given to giving them some kind of an opening , say to 34, 5, or any kind of a road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chair man , the member raises the points again about spring restrictions .

We had quite a lengthy discussion on that earlier, and we've indic ated that what we are attempt ing to do is provide a way of alleviating the worst effects of spri ng restrictions on AST surfaces, asphalt surface treatment , very thin layers of pavement that have to be protected during the spr ingtime of the year because of moisture conditions and frost conditions.

So the roads are quit e often ver y severely restricted and by placing an over lay over the AST, instead of going to a more expensive upgrading of the highway itself, we hope that the restrictions can be limited to higher limit than the 250 rest riction which mak es it impossible to really haul anyt hing by truck . It 's 350 instead of 250 and that would then alleviate the worst effects of the restrictions . That program is being put in place in the Rossburn area on No. 45 and also on 245 near Carman.

We may, as a resul t of this discuss ion and other pieces of information we have with regard to restrictions and the use in truck traffic and so on on those roads mentioned by the member look at one of those particular roads being a target for that kind of surface the next year to eliminate the sev ere restrictions . Also , I should point out that there is one project south of Carber ry on No. 5 and we'll begin to assist in that particular area in strengthening the road . We'll look at this other situation with the same treatment that we're applying on 45 and 245. MR. D.

ROCAN: The little town of Meleb, a little hamlet just off No. 7 Highway straight north of Teuton, I believe, can the Minister tell us if there 's supposed to be an Order-in-Council or whatever to make a market road into the town, turn into a market road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Could you repeat that please? MR. D. ROCAN: The town of Meleb just off No. 7 Highway just straight north of Teulon . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. D. ROCAN: I'm led to believe there's supposed to be an Orde r-in-Counc il going to be passed, or something of that nature , to turn the stretch of road from the highway to the town into a market road? HON.

J. PLOHMAN: And that is just north of Teulon? MR. D. ROCAN: Straight north of Teulon on 7. HON. J. PLOHMAN: What's the name of it ?

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 MR. D. ROCAN: Meleb. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Pardon? MR. D. ROCAN: Meleb . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Meleb . It's quite a ways up, north of Fraserwood. Mr. Chairman, it's possible that they have put in a resolution asking for some special consideration. I'd ask the member if he's aware that is the case and that ther e has been a request to the department, if he 's aware of the specific request and if he could give us some more information on it.

I don't have it with me at the present time and I'm not readily aware of what has been requested there by the LGD to have an access road taken over by the province to that community . MR. D. ROCAN: I can just enlighten the Minister by telling him that the district area there they've been allotted $2,000 to look after that litt le stretch of road for patching of the holes and whatever. Apparently, they're kind of waiting until this Order-in-Council , or whatever , passes. Apparently, the potholes are unreal; you miss one and you hit two, type of thing . The people in the town are quite upset. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We'll look into that and get some information on what the situation is there . I just wanted to point out that on 346 , south of No. 2, the member was asking about that

section of road . The average daily traffic on that road , incidentally , where that bridge is projected for the future, is 40 vehicles per day, which is very low. Either it's because the bridge , they're scared to drive over it, or it just doesn 't generate very much traffic. That is one of the reasons why it wouldn't be a high priority. MR. D. ROCAN: Maybe so . Maybe it's the bridge. But I do know, I've travelled this road, and there 's a hairpin curve on there like I've driven on in Vancouver Island , and it's the only one that I know of in Manitoba . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D.

BLAKE: To do with an update of the Plessis Road and No. 1 highway east interchange - the Deputy Minister is aware of this situation; I mentioned I was going to bring it up. It's to do with a p iece of property there that this particular individual feels he's been getting a runaround - (Interjection) - the Minister of Health says a shafting by the department. He's wondering when approved plans are going to be completed and what's going on with the interchange and the ramps that are there .

I think probably he's looking for an access to a piece of industrial property there and apparently has had no action or no satisfaction from the department . He's becoming quite impatient. He wants to get into retirement and develop his property. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , I recently asked for a status report on this . I know that it's a long­ standing outstanding issue. It is one that I would like to see certainly cleared up and the department is 996 working on it, because there was original approval given to this prairie climbing cranes , I guess it is, and they did not act on it.

It wasn 't satisfactory , I guess , or it was what they asked for at the time but in any event they did not follow up on it. It involves access to the service roads or to the loops, ramps there and, of course, that's a dangerous situation to have access immediately on these ramps coming off the major roads . With the service road in the area , it's possible that the service road can be extended to facilitate the needs that he has. However, he doesn 't like that alternative.

He wants direct access on to the ramp and the department is looking at whether it's possible to provide an intersection in a relatively safe place on the ramp. That has not been finalized , although they have gone out and talked to the owners there to find out exactly what their needs are and they 're trying to deve lop some modifications to the original ser vice roads insofar as where they were planned to be, and see whether we can work something out. But I got a report from the department on that now and the status, and I've asked for it, I've been concerned about.

I've been hearing a lot about this from the individual concerned, letters and so on. I'd like to get it expedited but it is a very difficult situat ion and that's why it's taken this long . MR. D. BLAKE: I don 't think we're going to solv e it here , Mr. Chairman. I wonder maybe if the Minister , with the member and some people from his department , if they could arrange a meeting and sit down and maybe thrash it out so that some conclusion , whether it be satisfactory or not, could be reached. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Deputy Minister feels that the department is very close to arriving at a solution now.

The plan was developed. They went out and talked to the land owners, the people affected , and they weren 't completely happy with it. They requested changes and the department is looking at whether they can accommodate those changes , and feel that there shou ld be a resolution of th is within the next couple of weeks. So it's certainly something that will be welcomed . MR. D. BLAKE: That will be helpful, I'm sure, to the individual. As I say, I don't fully understand the situation . I suppose you have to be out there to have a look at it before you really fully appreciate it .

It's something I promised him that I would bring up. He's the old commanding officer of my regiment so I thought it was the least I could do for past favours. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just when you're making a copy of the Hansard to send to him , just take that part off, white that out . MR. D. BLAKE: Well I think maybe there are some other members that have some questions, Mr. Chairman , I'll let them . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I posed a question to the Minister the other day with respect to a portion of PR 330 from LaSalle to Domain , and the Minister

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 in dicated at that time that it had come close to being included in this years Capital Program, but that it had a large price tag associated with the upgrading of that particular portion. I had taken from that that it would be then high on the consideration of next year's Capital expenditures. However, since I last posed that question, the word has come to me indir ectly from Highways staff in the area that the government has now decided to not maintain that road, to allow it to go back to a pure gra vel road state. Can the Min ister ind icate whether that policy decision has been made?

HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt probably was discussed. I don't know if there was a formal decision made to do that. I believe the

section that we're talking about has now got an AST surface or breaking-up AST surface? Is that correct? But when you're looking at so many different projects, priorities, obviously there are a lot of questions and discussion about what the possible alternatives are. lt may have been discussed. I'm rather surpris ed though that word would have been received, informally or formally or whatever, by the Member for Morris, because I think I vaguely recall that.

I think a number of different roads we've discussed cost alternatives in situations, as to whether they warrant continued emphasis for paving and so on, but there's been no policy decision made to not pave that road. lt is being recommended as a high priority for that area, and will receive consid eration again next year in the same way it did this past year. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'm encouraged by the Mini ster's words. I'm taking them in good faith.

However, I guess then I would ask that he, or the Deputy Min ister, be in contact with the district engineer in the Carman office, and attempt then to indica te to the district staff that, indeed, it is not the decision of the government, it is not the wish of the government that ind eed the road break up again to a pure gravel state. Furthermore, maybe the Min ister can indicate, as I drive the road daily and notice through about two or three miles, many many orange signs ind icating to me, the motorist, that there are breaks coming.

Yet, I see no sign or indication of a patching crew coming along and filling in those particular potholes. I guess the best way to alleviate my concern is to see that particular portion brought up to some type of properly maintained level. I guess I'm search ing, I'm trying to determine whether , indeed, there has been a decision to allow this road to go into a total state of disrepair . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well in looking at it, this apparently is only six years old, this AST. lt obvious ly, either was not prepared properly in the first place when it was laid down, it was done too quickly or not proper materials used, and so it has been deteriorating to such an extent that, until such time as it's resurfaced, the department feels that it is rather futile to continue to try and patch this and keep the surface that's there, because it's breaking up so badly. I think the member's attesting to that by talking about these orange signs.

By the way, I think we should have orange signs for other purposes on the roads, rather than to in dicate how bad they are. 997 MR. C. MANNESS: All the roads then will have orange signs. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm told by the department tha t there's a lack of adequate depth of existing base course there. There is extreme moisture susce ptibility of the heavy clay that exists in the top portion of the subgrade there as well and, therefore, they are ind eed - and I was referring just before when I said there was no policy to have this return to gravel surface.

I was thinking in that in terms of a more permanent type of solution. They are recommending, and I guess that's why they're not patching, because of the severity of the situation, that it go back to gravel surface until such time as a decision is made to pave it. So that probably is happening at the present time, but again, I think my answer still holds true, that there was no decision made to say that, in the future, this road would not be paved.

But because of the situation right now, because of the fact that it wasn't done properly in the first place and tha t they will need to add at least another six inches of base course before redoing it as an AST, if that's the decision to do it, or whether to pave it with the bituminous overlay. In any event, either one would require more base, because it has not been done prop erly, and that's why it has to be allowed to go back. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr . Chairman, I guess, all of a sudden, my spirits are dashed just a few minutes later after the original comment by the Min ister.

As the Mini ster ind icates, there are some problems with respect to the base of that road. I fully understand that. Yet, it's apparent to me then tha t what the local Highways Department staff are saying is, in fact, accurate. The government has no intention to fill in those potholes, and I guess that begs the next question, how safe driving conditions will continue to exist on that road, because right now th ree-quarters of the road is in stable condition allowing full speed limits. All of a sudden, one drops into one of these gig antic-sized potholes with very little warning, I might add.

In time, will the government just allow the road to gradually break up, or will the y put a scarifier in and totally break it up and turn it again back to a full gravel road, which maybe will be safer, which again will put us in the whole area, in the community back six years? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There were some various opinions, as I said, as we discussed this particular road during the consideration of the construction program, that it possibly could be held another year.

But it seems, from what the member is saying, that they haven't been able to do that, that it's getting to the stage where it's probably more dangerous to keep it as an AST than it would be to, as the member mentioned, do exactly what the member said, scarify it and then rebuild it. lt would have to stay in that state then until such time as it was put in for the million-dollar surfacing. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr . Chairman, two points. First of all, I personally can't accept that being it's such a new road, serving a vibrant small community with two or three very sign ificant busi nesses and a local consumer

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 co-op doing upwards of $6 million worth of business, and the most successful cooperative in the Province of Manitoba. I don't want to be shown as going on the record as indicating I would support that the road being broken up. I guess I would ask that the Minist er would see fit to patch, in whatever form, those presently numbering six pothole areas, and whatever material he wishes to use, his department wishes to use , maybe to get us through one more additional year before the Minister in his wisdom decides to include that within his Capital Program. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, we can take a look at whether there is a patching program that can keep it for this year, but it is doubtful at the present time . It would have to be redone in any event. The amount of mone y that was identified would be for complete resurfacing of the road in any event and , if indeed it was not feasible to continue to patch it, then it would be safer to have it as a gravel road . Maybe that 's the right decision . No one would suggest that the Member for Morris is suggesting that he favours that alternative. I'm sure that none of us would suggest that , but it may be the only one .

It's not a matter , I guess, of wisdom in making the decision to put it in the program next year. I'm hopeful that we can do that, that the overall priorities of that area are such that we will be able to make that the top priority, but I can't just say, without looking, I know what kinds of other requests are coming forward right across the province . So it's going to be difficult , but I think that the member 's representations here will be well noted insofar as this road is concerned . MR. C.

MANNESS: One final comment, and I say to the Minister that indeed four of the five-and-a-half miles associated with that road, I believe, are in pretty sound condition. There's basically a mile and-a-half that's very weak and that's the portion creating all the problem. I would ask that he be cognizant that the whole road, the whole five-and-a-half mile portion is not in such a bad state that it should be abandoned . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay, we'll look at , give special attention on that one-and-a-half miles that is currently in bad shape and see whether there's something that can be done to it.

I will have to get a report from the department on the situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield . MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question in regard to the Sperry Road access to Highway 59. It was closed down some time ago, allegedly for safety reasons, which is debatable in itself . Right now the residents of that road have to go all the way down Pritchard Farm Road in order to get onto 59. If the access is not going to be reopened , is there the possibility that some kind of an alternative access serve thos e residents?

I think it came up previously, I mean prior to this Session, but nothing was done about it. That's in the Bird's Hill area . HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe , Mr. Chairman, the member is referring to that changes were made at the intersections and projections made for traffic as a result of a new hotel that was being built at the corner of Pritchard Farm Road and 59, somewhere in there. I know at the time that there were some special requests made by the developers . Finally, after a lot of discussion, there was a solution that was mutually agreed upon.

Sinc e that time , I understand the development has been stopped , and obv iou sly th at will affe ct the long­ term planning for that area, but I don't recall exactly what the solution was we had , and I don't un derstand exactly what the concern is that the member has with what was happening there. 998 MR. G. ROCH: The concern is that they closed the access. The people who live on Sperry Road had an access right there onto 59 Highway. They put up some little plastic tu bes, I don't know what , to prevent people from using that access. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman , for clarification, is the member talking about closing the access or closing the median? MR. G. ROCH: No , reopening it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, the right turns? The access stays. MR. G. ROCH: The access is there already. They 're not allowed to use it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: As I recall, the median was to be closed in the intersection so that there could not be any left turns at that intersection . That's the way we seem to recall the discussion . There was also some movement of an intersection slightly, of an access . MR. G. ROCH: But closing the median would not prevent access to the highway .

It would still be a right turn if the access was open. Right now the access is closed . HON. J. PLOHMAN: If the access is closed completely now, I don't believe that was part of the decision and we'll have to find out why. But my understanding was that it was to eliminate left turns, not to eliminate access altogether. So, if that 's the case now , how long has it been closed - months? MR. G. ROCH: At least, I would say, and I'm just guessing here , but I'm guessing at least a year or more. It could be less than that, but I know at least since last March. It seems prior to last March because I heard about it.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: We had a number of meetings on this issue with the developers, with the munic ipality, with the MLA and tried to work out a solution that would be acceptable to the develo pers because they were contemplating not going ah ead with the development if they couldn 't have some means of reasonable access to their new facility. So there were a number of things that they were asking for and they weren't all acceptable to the Highways Department from a traffic safety point of view. So there were some

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 concessions made, some negot iations, some give and take, and finally there was a solution that we felt would be acceptable to the Highways Department, will not compromise safety and would also be satisfactory for the developers. Now with that development having been ceased there, it may be necessary to revert back to the previous situation . That would be in limbo at this stage because of the uncertainty about the development, but I would think that it may be appropriate at this time to get a report again on that situation and find out whether we should be changing the plans.

Now that things have changed , circumstances have changed there. MR. G. ROCH: Is it possible, then, that report would be available in the near future? HON. J. PLOHMAN : I'll get it as soon as I can and provide some information to the member , eit her by memorandum or letter, on this situation. MR. G. ROCH: Okay, that would be fine because I understand that the residents of that particular area had a meeting with departmental officials - and I don't know which ones some time ago - and at tha t time they were told that it would not be reopened .

This goes back - I don't know how many months ago - but the point is that because circumstances have changed , as you've indicated, there is a very good reason now to re-examine the whole thing and reopen that access. So I'll be waiting for that report . You made some comments some time ago - I believe it was near the opening of the Estimates - I'm not sure . There was a time you mentioned about signage on the highways - there would be improved signage to indicate the facilities - would that include recreational facilities as well? I assume the signs you mean are for food, lodging , gas, etc .

But for example in Birds Hill Park, there are riding stables there. I'm using that as an example. Would recreational facilities such as those be included on such signage? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I guess it depends on whether this is a private development there . MR. G. ROCH: It's a privately-operated facility within the Birds Hill Park, yes.

I know some areas - I don't know if it's the case in Manitoba - but some areas in other jurisdictions will indicate boating renta ls or similar types of tourist-related facilities and I was wondering if, in its new and improved signage, would a department consider indicating such facilities because food , lodging and gas are private facilities as well in most cases. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. The difference, of course , is that there's no specific mention of any particular restaurant or any particular service station , company or so on. It's general service signs.

In this case, the individual who is operating there may want to discuss this with two groups : one with the Parks Branch to determine whether they will allow any signing there; and secondly, if it's off the highway that he's concerned about - with Ross Adamson, or 999 person in charge of traffic signage - he would be able to provide information to the individual as to what the specific requirements are and what can be made available.

When I was talking about improved signage, of course, I was talking about provincial historic sites, museums that we've increased signage for and made available for the travelling public, and also radio stations, station numbers, call letters, as well as the Community Signage Program which we're expanding. But there's always other areas. We have to balance that against having a proliferation of signs that would be unlimited for all kinds of individuals who want to have the advertising . MR. G. ROCH: No, I don 't think I meant that he'd want advertising .

It would just be like , for example , some people are not aware what facilities are in the park, especially if they're American tourists, or wherever they're from. There could be a general sign indicating gas, food , lodging. You could have a picture of a table. I'm just saying something could maybe be thought up for future use. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I thin k that is a good suggestion and one that should be consi dered for various services that are availab le in our parks on our major highways - to notify the travelling public of what is available - I think that's what the member is getting at.

We should look at that and we will take a look at whether the signage that is available now is not adequate and whether it should be expanded. MR. G. ROCH: We dealt this afternoon with that portion of Provincial Road 206. In the same area there's a couple of other provincial roads which seem to be on hold . Maybe you can clarify it. In the case of Provincial Road 213, which is commonly known as Garven Road - it was supposed to extend all the way to No. 12. What is the status of that road at this point? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That particular road, the plans are still that it would be extended through; the bridges in the program to be done this year and will be constructed and we're proceeding with that. I believe the tenders have been left for the bridge, isn't that right? Is it one or two structu res? Two structures. There' s one over Cooks Creek to replace the old municipal wood structure and another small one that will be carried out. They were advertised and they will be carried out this year.

Then the grading on the new alignment has been deferred for this year and will be considered again for the next coming construction program. It hasn't been cancelled ; it has been - I guess the proper term would be - deferred, or a staged construction. We're doing the bridge, so we have int entions to proceed with the plan but it is not at the same pace that was projected .

There were about five major projects that were deferred because of the reduction in fundin g, so 213 was one of them; 238 River Road was another; 410 was another; 265 was another one - I should go through the districts - 213 was in District No. 1; 238 was in District No. 12, from No. 9 to Lockport in that area; 410 was in District No. 1 as well, from 230 to

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 PTH 8; 265 was in District No. 7; and 267 was in District No. 8. These five were slowed down or deferred so there were a couple of them in the Premier ' s constituency and one in Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: I understand that expropriation proceedings had started in some areas for the Provincial Road 213. What happens in those cases? Is that deferred as well, or do expropriation proceedings go ahead? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we brought our hea vy hecklers from the NOP Caucus here, and it's hard to hear the member, so I would just like to have the member repeat it so we can hear.

A MEMBER: I don't think it's right to go ahead and call him an NDPer. HON . J. PLOHMAN: Oh, well I apologize to him. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I suggest that some of the members on my right, particularly, if they wish to hold a conversation, please do it in the rear so we can hear the honourable membe rs. I won 't mention any particular constituency . The Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: As I was try ing to say awhile ago, Mr. Chairman, expropriation proceedings had begun in the area of 213.

I was just wondering, seeing as this is one of the roads that has been deferred, will these proceedings continue or will they be deferred as well? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, the expropriation that has begun will continue . MR. G. ROCH: So then to what date or what approximate time have these projects been deferred to? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, they've been staged , they'll be reconsidered in next year 's program . MR. G. ROCH: So at that point the department could either decide to do them at that point or defer them again? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We cannot make commitments completely from one year to the next.

Each stage of construction, including the survey and design stage, the acquisition stage, the grading work , they're all separate approvals and money is budgeted in each year for the work . MR. G. ROCH: Okay, in the case of Prov incial Road 405, what is the status of that particular one? HON . J. PLOHMAN: 405 in what . . . ? MR. G. ROCH: From Lorette to lie des Chenes. There were a lot of survey pegs up during the election . HON. J. PLOHMAN: This particular road was included in our budget and is still there as a location study, survey and design from PTH 59 to PR 206.

I believe that's the area the member is asking about. We had included that in the program, we continue to have it in the program, and will identify the best alternative route for that section. MR. G. ROCH: Are you getting more information? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The proposal has been discussed already with the municipality there , but there has been no visitations with individual landowner s or any public open house or any communication with the local people, but the proposal has been developed and there has been some discussion already with the municipality. MR. G. ROCH: Has there been some surveying done? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, the survey work will be part of this study. MR. G. ROCH: So when will we find out when it's going ahead or not? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, as soon as the considerations, I would think, that have been bro ught forward by the municipality have been taken into consideration and the design finalized. There will obviously have to be some consultations with local people to find out what the impacts will be and see whether there has to be further revisions, and then it could be put in for acquisition in the next construction year for acquisition of property. MR. G.

ROCH: Because that road had been promised, I assumed that within the next year or two there would be something going ahead then. Am I correct in assuming that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well , you're not correct to assume anything on this because we have to reprogram the next stage. In the next year we will be considering this particular piece of road for acquisition of property, and then the following year we could be look ing at construction, but it's at least two years down the road before you can presume that there can be any construction on that section. MR. G.

ROCH: If I understand you correctly, then, it would depend on the budgetary conditions of that time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: And the priorities that we establish at that time , yes. MR. G. ROCH: I have one final question. Although the capital expenditure has been cut back by a substantial amount - you indicated or it's shown that the operational/maintenance part of the budget has been increased slightly - yet the information I get from some people in district offices is that , in fact, out in the field there's been cutbacks of as high as 30 percent. Where is that increas ed operational money going to then?

Is it going to administration or where? 1000 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, then we're back into maintenance, and in my understanding, I would be very

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 shocked if I find out that there have been that kind of reductions in any maintenance activities. The fact is that we have not cut back in maintenance activities and we haven't intended there to be any cutbacks in maintenance activities. MR. G. ROCH: Therefore, as far as maintenance by the departmental staff is concerned, that should keep on as before or even should be slightly improved? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The standards have been maintaine d and we have adde d some additio nal programs such as additional seal-coating over the last couple of years, dust control and some special projects like that, additional monies, but the maintenance budget has been designed to maintain the standards that are in place. MR. G. ROCH: So if there are specific areas where there have been or it can be shown that there has been cutbacks or the money is not being channelled to the proper places; it should be brought to the Min ister's attention and it will be rectified? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. G. ROCH: Okay, thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I had a couple of questions dealing with the road construction in the southwest. The first question is: why is the Mi nister not proceeding to pave and put a top on 452 between the Waskada and No. 3 Hig hway which has carried a tremendous amount of oil traffic and still continues to carry a lot of heavy traffic and there's been absolutely no money spent by the government? There's been a request for some four years now and absolutely nothing done. Why is the Mini ster not proceeding to carry out some paving on that road? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, 452, Mr. Chairman, was considered in this budget. lt was brought forward as one of the 300-or-so million dollars worth of projects that were suggested by the department, and it is one that we will consider as a high priority for that area. The member has brought this to my attention, I believe, before but not as the top priority for his consideration in the area. He had indica ted to me, I believe, that 345 was a higher priority in a meeting that we had with the delegation from his constituen cy.

We have proceeded to put that one in the program this year, and will consider 452 in the subsequent year for upgrading as well. The traffic count varies on there. lt is reasonably high, although it is not exorbitant, around 250 vehicles per day. So it's not excessive traffic on that road. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, probably the reason the traffic count isn't as high as it has been is the fact that it's not fit to travel on. I would think that's probably the No. 1 reason for low traffic count, if that's in fact the case. I would like to correct the record.

I did not at any time ind icate that it was not my top priori ty. I have 1001 several top priorities, Mr. Chairman, in my constituenc y. I guess the truth of the matter is that the Min ister of Hi ghways, with the continued cut in his budget, cannot demonstrate the need or any strength around his Cabinet table to get funds to carry out the work activity that has to be done.

I certainly sympathize with his departmental staff that have to hide throughout the province, because they haven't got anything to do but resurvey the surveyed roads that they've done two and three years ago. lt's incredible that this government are allowing the continued depletion and deterioration of our road system, and it can't be tolerated. I wish he would, Mr. Chairman, get himself a bit of strength when he goes to Cabinet and caucus and get some funds to carry out the work activity that has to be done. I ask the Mini ster as well - and I note, Mr. Chairman, you allowed a question on signage.

Is it the policy of this Min ister and this government to have both French and English signs when you enter Manitoba from the Uni ted States? Is that a policy of the Min ister of Hig hways? HON. J. PLOHMAN: What sign is the member referring to? I don't know that we have made any specific decisions about bili ngual signs on entry into the province, unless Tourism has authorized such a Tourism sign. MR. J. DOWNEY: The question is: why are there both French and English stop signs or signs when you're coming into Manitoba from the United States? Is it a directive from him or his department for bilingual sign age?

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Is that customs? it's probably a federal customs requirement from the Conservative Government in Ottawa. MR. J. DOWNEV: Mr . Chairman, the Min ister at certain time s has to take certain responsibilities. In this particular case, he's responsible for signage. Is it his policy to have bilingual signs coming into the Province of Mani toba from the Unit ed States? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm certain that I wouldn't want to dictate to the Federal Government what kind of signs they should be putting up under their jurisdiction.

We haven't had the occasion to have to make a decision on what kind of any particular change in our signage. Right now, it's one-language signs, English signs, and I don't belie ve that we have any incl ination to be placing bilingual signs throughout the province. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, again another issue which you may rule me out of order , but I'll wait until the Min ister's Salary if you do, and that is the transfer of provincial responsibilities, hig hway expenses, onto the local municipalities last year.

Is the Mi nister going to live up to his responsibilities and not transfer those costs, which are his re sponsibi liti es, on the municipalities, particularly when it comes to the spraying programs? Last year, many municipali ties incurr ed high costs of spraying grasshoppers to control the pests along the

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 provincial highways. lt's been rejected by this Mi nister and this gove rnm ent, again transf erring their re sponsibiliti es on a municipal government, Mr . Chairman, at several thousands of dollars cost to municipalities. I'm asking the Mi nister if he won't consider carrying out his respon sibili ties this year, if in fact the need is there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have di scussed this on a number of occasions, I believe, with the member, both in the House and it has been raised on a number of different forums and occasions.

The policy of the government is that Agriculture will supply the chemicals for all the spraying in the municipalities, including the rights-of-way of the Hig hways Department, and that the municip alities will apply those chemicals. We feel that is a fair policy and a contribution by the province. Certainly last year, the Department of Agriculture provided some $550,000, I believe, of assistance to municip alities by providing the chemicals, which is a substantial contribution compared to the costs of application.

So it seems like a reasonable sharing, as opposed to shifting of costs to the municipalities, because inde ed that policy has been in place for many years and has not been a change. So, therefore, it has not been a shift by the province, by the Department of Hi ghways, of responsibilities to the municipalities. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, one final subject, and I wish the Mi nister would cease and desist from blaming other people for his shortfall.

The question is this: when is he going to stop discriminating against the people of the Province of Manitoba that don't live in an area that's serviced by a 100-kilometre per hour highway? I was to Russell on the weekend, and my turnoff from the Yellowhead Route onto 83 Hig hway, which is part and parcel of the same road from the Foxwarren corner on up to Russell, and I turned down south on 83 Highway. The quality of the road doesn't change, but the speed limit does, dir ect discrimina tion on people travel ling other than on No. 1 Hig hway or on the Yellowhead Route.

I ask the Min ister, why can he not standardize the traffic speed limit without saying he has to do another study, he's got to do this. Can he not simply go to Cabinet, and put an order through that says the major highway system in the Province of Manitoba has 100 kilome tres per hour? What's so difficult about it? Is he that weak that he can't go forward, and remove the discrimina tory policies throughout the province? That's really what he is, he's too weak to get anything passed through Cabinet. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please.

Could I suggest to the honourable member that his terms, he's attributing motivation to the Min ister in negative terms. That is unparli amentary and out of order . Could the member please rephr ase his statement? MR. J. DOWNEY: I won't rephrase my statement, Mr . Chairman, because I don't think it's out of order . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr . Chairman, we have dealt with this issue on a number of occasions, the matter of speed limits here. The Member for Arthur isn't listening. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'm listening. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We have ind icated that we have undertaken steps to have a consistent approach with regard to speed limits in the province. There was very much an ad hoc approach under the pre vious government, and resulted in fragments of highways throughout the province being designated as 100 ki lometres, for whatever reason.

I don't know why the former Mini ster of Agriculture at that time, the Member for Arthur , didn't take a more di rect inter est and exercise some clout in the Cabinet during the time that he was in there with the former Premier Lyon and insure that the Hig hways Mini ster at that time got hold of this problem and applied a consistent pol icy. We're attempting now to correct those inadequacies that existed there. You can't clean them all up at once and over a period of time I believe that we will have that corrected. The traffic board is looking at a number of requests for changes.

We have a plan for all of the major highw ays in the province that will be designated. I' ve ind icated that during the discussions we had earlier, and High way 83 will be one of those that over the next year or so will be changed to 100 kilometres prov iding, of course, that the shoulder width warrants it. There's certain conditions that will be applied and considered. So, it is important if you're increasing speeds to have proper road conditions as well and we want to have those considered on an individual basis.

There is a plan in place and we'll be getting an update on that plan as to exactly where we are now. Since last year, we've had a number of changes; 83 in the northern areas near Swan River has been changed to 100; Highway 5 to the Saskatchewan border has been added to the 100 ki lometre system; Hig hway 12 to the American border has been added to the 100 ki lometre system, so we're working in that direction and, certainly , there's been a lot of improvement in terms of consistency over the last year and there will be, I believe, more impr ovement over the next year. MR. D.

ROCAN: Specifically, I want to talk to you about the 431 off 23 Highw ay. A small hamlet of St. Leon is situated on the 431. lt is also on the side of a hill. Is it not department policy whatever, can a hig hway go through the town that they would not pave say up to the sidewalks? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Through the towns the high ways pass through, I believe the policy is two lanes. The paving does not always go. Many times there's diagonal parking and there's quite an extensive distance, the wide main street right to the sidewalks.

The department has taken the position that the two lanes through should be those that should be paved, I believe, and that any additional would have to be paid for by the local government if they wanted to see that paved right to the centre when repaving is done - right to the sidewalks I should say. This is the case in many towns. We're looking at that. I know some of the towns and villages have complained to me. They feel that this should be the whole thing. I want to see whether this is being applied consistently throughout the province. MR. D.

ROCAN: Is it not department pol icy also wherever there's a pothole and whatever to put up a red flag? 1002

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, they ran out of red flags. There's warnings on major problem areas, either bump signs and flags, whatever, as soon as they're detected until they're repaired. So, during that period of time the flags are put up to warn motorists. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, Clearwater, a small village in Southern Manitoba is about, I think, the only village if not one of the one or two left that doesn't have a paved access into the village.

Is there a reason for that or is the department getting around to paving the access into Clearwater? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Was Clearwater an incorpo rated village or town? MR. D. BLAKE: No, it's right off No. 34, 3A; 3A just takes a little square jog there; Pilot Mound, Crystal City and across west a few miles to Cl earwater. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr . Chairman, there is not only this one, of course. There's a number of other small little hamlets where this situation does exist but we're working to eliminate that problem.

The Member for Mi nnedosa would know that we are working on providing that access to Clearwater as well as a couple of others that still exist. MR. D. BLAKE: Has the Mi nister had any problem with the waterslide that was built in Brandon on the Grand Valley Road or what they call the "low road" out to Grand Valley to the waters lide? There was some concern expressed by the people there about the traffic that was going to be created on that road. I just wondered if there has been any traffic hazard there. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I just want to mention, as well, I've been advised that regarding Clearwater we have received representa tion from people in that area asking us to pave this half mile. The planning is ongoing and I'm just awaiting a report on that, so we're actively reviewing that situation. The member has asked about the watersl ide. I think it's on 459. There's a new project in the program, shoulder repair and asphalt surface treatment, both shoulders. The paving of the shoulders is for bicycle traffic in that area which has been necessitated by the waterslide. MR. D.

BLAKE: Yes, I wonder if the Min ister could confirm the Hig hways garage and snowplough shed in Swan River - the Minis ter has some correspondence. The Ombudsman has been involved with a dis pute with a subcont ractor , a Mr. Klekta. Has that been resolved or is that ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that involved a subcontractor who did not get paid for the work he did allegedly for the cont ractor, and the money was paid out and we have an agreement with the subcontractor as to how it should be resolved. They're taking the matter to court and we're paying for that, yes. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, on (

b) Aid to Cities, Towns and Munic ipalities, it's down about $400,000.00. Could the Min ister give us some accounting for the reduction there? Is that dust-proofing - Item (

b) Aid to Cities, Towns and Villages is down $400,000 .00. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Again, that was necessitated as a result of the requirement to keep the costs down. The requests in the past have ind icated that the money was pretty well being spent, that the requests matched the budget. This year, we're going to be close. There were a number of projects tha t were put forward that were withd rawn by local municip alities for various reasons, and it looks like we' re not going to be inconveniencing the plans of very many towns and villages with regard to the Grant and Aid Program.

We're going to meet most of the requirements and I don't expect a severe curtailment or a problem because of the reduction there. MR. D. BLAKE: I can see the municipalities may be cutting back somewhat although if funds were available there's always a great amount of work to be done in the villages. I assume the Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets, that big boost there is a water bom ber, is it? Did you give us the price of that earlier? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I think I had it and I went through the cost of the water bomber.

I think we're paying something like $4 million - the cost is much higher than that. The original ones were $4 million. The cost is $7,801 ,900, which provides for two; and spare parts package. The cash flow is $88,000 last year for that plane; $4,087,000 this year, so that's pretty well the big year. In 19 87-88, we'll need another $4,230,000; it's about the same. So we're going to need a similar amount in next year's budget to pay for this over the two-year period. The deliv ery of the first one under that agreement is to take place this month - it's been postponed a bit, but any time now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, has someone asked a question on Clearwater? He got a commitment from the Minis ter tha t the department is looking at it. Does that commitment mean that it will be paved this summer, the Clearwater access road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't believe that it's ready for that. There's some difficulties there in the design and acquisition, but it will be done as soon as we are able to solve those.and it has not been programm ed.

The member knows what the process is, that we do not add projects in the middle of the year that aren't in the published program to any extent. The member knows what the published construction program is for this year. it's not in this year's program and we'll consider it for next year's program, providing all of the other difficulties there can be worked out. MR. D. ORCHARD: The municipality will help you work them out. 1003

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'v e just been notified that the municip ality will help us work them out and that's very good to see, to have some assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr . Chairman, I just have a general question. I think it's probably too late, too far down the line - I've raised this issue a couple of times in past years - and that is, given the various constraints tha t one ha s in the government these days, I'm wondering - it is my understanding that Hi ghway 44, are they still planning to twin High way 44 between Highway 59 and Beausejour?

I travel that road frequently , going back and forth on weekends, on peak times. The road itself, there's absolutely no question that it needs a major upgrading. I'm really wondering if it absolutely has to go to a four­ lane hig hway. Would it not be possible to rebuild that road up to a very good standard, a top standard, two­ lane hig hway and perhaps put four lanes as you slow down and go through the Village of Garson, and then have the rest of it as a quality of road the same as, perhaps, on the Yellowhead, with paved shoulders?

Would that not - I don't know if the Mini ster is listening to me or not - would that not make substantial reductions in land acquisition costs and still provide for the necessary traffic flow that we have there at peak times? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt is always a balancing act between whether a two-lane hig hway will suffice or whether we have to go to a four-lane. Actual ly, the traffic in the area on 44, when comparing it to other major hig hways, is actually higher than most. it's over the 3,000 range average daily traffic per day, up around 3,500, particularly during specific times of the year.

That is over the threshhold when the department usually considers to look at four-laning, for future planning for the highw ay because obviously there's growth projections built in. But if it's over 3,000 at the present time, it certainly warrants consideration for four­ laning. So the traffic does warrant it. it's a question of the dollars and cents and whether to upgrade only as a two-lane and continue with the congestion that would exist. I think it's debatable. I feel on the basis of the traffic flows, it is warranted. MR. D.

SCOTT: Does the Min ister know or could his staff perhaps assist us here in looking at some other provinces and what kind of traffic counts they require before one jumps into a four-lane exercise? Because certainly 3,500 or 4,000 cars a day in southwestern Ontario wher e you ha ve a much, much higher population, I'm sure they don't dream of putting in a four-lane hig hway when you just have 4,000, or less than 4,000 cars a day. HON. J. PLOHMAN: If you look at other jurisdictions, for example, Saskatchewan is dualing the Yellowhead Route.

The traffic volumes that we have, there were 1, 600 to 2,000 vehicles, and we're not considering dualing at this time. it's upgrading it with partially -paved shoulders, and a good two-lane highw ay. But that is again about 1, 000 or 1,5 00 less than Highway 44. Hi ghway 59, which has been dualed , is less considerably than 44, insofar as the traffic is concerned. Hig hway 75 is less average daily traffic, around 2,600, 2,800, as opposed to 3,000 and 3,500.

So most other hig hways tha t are being four-laned in the province, none of them really, except probably Highway No. 1, would be of a higher volume than Highway 44, and other jurisdictions in Canada would certainly be from what I've seen, and I'd like to get more information right across the country as to what triggers four-laning. I think it has a lot to do with dollars and cents, but it also has to do with safety and volumes.

I don't have access to all of that right at the present time, I would like to get it, but I know that we have looked at the neighbouring provinces, and it varies, but certainly the criteria is justified on the basis of what is there in traffic. MR. D. SCOTT: Well I don't want to pursue the line of questioning fur ther and I don't want to be misconstrued, I guess, in my slight intervention here, but I believe very strongly that we should try to maintain our highway system in as good a quality and standard as is possible.

I feel that one is able to do that more if you are able to limit the amount of twinning of hig hways. Certainly , in past years, I myself questioned whether the road into Steinbach really needed to be twinned or whether High way 59 really needed to be twinned. From my own experience, in living in other jurisidi ctions, I travelled on a lot of two-lane hig hways with much higher volumes than I'm used to travel ling on here. The Min ister has said that he would like to check up and see what some other provinces are doing before that triggers the consideration of four-laning.

I' m sure it would be a good exercise for his own peace of mind, and I would apprecia te it if he could inform me as well as to what he finds out in other jurisdictions as to when it triggers four-laning. Thanks very much for your time. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'll just mention as well that Hig hway 12 would indic ate that even at points of highe st traffic that they're not near the traffic volume of Highway 44, but I think that during times of where it is difficult to obtain funds, certainly those decisions have to be made with much more prudence.

What may result in this particular case - for the Member for lnkster - is that it will just take longer to do it than it would when there are more funds. MR. D. SCO TT: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: There are no further speakers. Item 8.(a)- pass; Item 8.(b)- pass; Item 8.(c)- pass; 8.(d)-p ass; 8.(e)(1) , 8.(e)(2)-pass; 8.(e)(3)-pass. Resolution 97: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not excee ding $96,939,000 for Hig hways and Transportation expenditur es related to Capital for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87-p ass. Okay, we now return to deferred item, Item 1. (

a) Min ister's Salary - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. SLAKE: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. Well, we mentioned, when we had the Mi nis ter's open ing 1004

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 statement starting the Estimates, how disappointed we were to see the tremendous cuts, more like slashing, that had been done to the Highways budget. We expressed our displeasure then and we express it again now because without the funds , I am sure the Minister wouldn't let his house deteriorate without repairing it and maintaining it properly, and that's what's happening to our road network and our highway structure. The report from the heavy equipment industry I think sets it out just in as clear a term as it can be told in, Mr.

Chairman, with the vehicle registrations increasing in the past numbers of years about 29 percent and 36 percent in trucks, licensed drivers have increased 22 percent, and the number of kilometres driven has increased. The total provincial Budget has increased 4.96 times and yet the Highways budget has only increased 2.45 times, and about 1.2 percent is paid to contractors . So, in constant dollars, the total provincial has more than doubled, total Highways has increased about 20 percent , and the payments to contractors have decreased probably about 40 percent. That spells it out fairly clearly , Mr. Chairman.

When we look at total expenditures from '73 to '87, we see the percentage from 51 percent paid to contractors down to about 26 percent. It's obvious that contractors are in dire straits to maintain their staff, to maintain their equipment, and try and keep enough work to keep even a skeleton staff on . The Selkirk Bridge property and the Selkirk Bridge contract, Mr. Chairman, we have expressed our displeasure at that . We think it's been handled very badly. The people there are not being treated fairly in the expropriation of their property and I suspect that may be the case in some areas on Highway 44.

We're extremely disappointed from my constituency's point of view that Highway 16 is not going to be completed from the Franklin cutoff to Neepawa , but SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please . The member is trying to make a statement on the record . It would be polite to have him heard. MR. D. BLAKE: . . . sooner or later, we will have to have that finished because I've explained to the Minister the dangerous driving conditions on that road. It's quite treacherous and we're very very concerned.

So I think the Minister has to get some more clout around the Cabinet table and convince his colleagues that this is a serious situation what's happening to our road system. We've had no action on the abandoned rail lines ; it's been dragging on for yea rs. The other provinces, I understand, have settled. The Minister mentioned that he was having an emphasis on safety this year and we concur with that because there's no doubt safety is a prime concern and a prime importance to us all. But the slashes in the budget, Mr. Chairman , are just not acceptable by members on this side of the Hous e.

We think the Minister has to go back to his Cabinet colleagues and say, look, we've got to have some more funds into the Highways budget. The heavy equipment operators are going to be out of business and if they lea ve this province , it's very, very difficult if not impossible to get them back. You'll be at the mercy of the big contractors. So we urge the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, strongly , to go to his Cabinet colleagues and get some more funds into the Highways budget so that we can have a few more projects carried out this year; not only the new projects but the maintenance problems have to be attacked, and attacked vigorously, if we're going to maintain our road network. So, Mr. Chairman , expressing that displeasure with the condition of the Highways Department that we 've done throughout the Estimates, and the fact that the budget has been slashed so drastically, I move that Item 1.(

a) be reduced to the amount of $45, the cost of about one ton of asphalt paving . MR. CHAIRMAN: Just to inform the member, Rule 55.(1) states "A motion to reduce the Minister's salary must be in writing ." I have not received such a motion yet. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I move the question be put. MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is, the question be put. All those in favour, voice vote. HON. J. COWAN: On a point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: There is no point of order. HON. J. COWAN: Moving the question to be put is a debatable motion . MR. D. ORCHARD: It is not a debatable motion .

HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think we should debate whether it's deb atab le. MR. D. ORCHARD: The question is, the motion is not debatable . A MEMBER: Look at Rule 64.(14). MR. CHAIRMAN:

Section 64.(14) , the point of order is inc orrect. It states: "Where the motion for th e 'previous question' is moved in Committee of Supply , or in a

section of the Committee of Supply , the motion is not debatable." The motion is to move the previous question. All those in favour, please say aye; those opposed, say nay. In my opinion , the ayes have it. The Min ister of Co-op Development . HON. J. COWAN: Reque st a call out. MR. CHAIRMAN: A form al vote has been requested, the member s will remove to the Chamber. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: This

section of th e Committee of Supply has been considering the 1005

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. We are now on Item No. 4.(e)

(1) Technical Services and Training Branch: Salaries. The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: No, not on this. MR. CHAIRMAN: No problems? 4.(e)(1) - pass. 4.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMM INGS: What is the recov erable listed under that section? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the recoverable to cover off the $85,900 deals with Agricultural Man power -39,300; 4-H and Youth -27,900; and the Toronto Royal Fair -18,7 00.00. That deals with the federal-provincial agreement on transportation of show animals to the Royal, and 4-H and Youth is our sharing of the national program in 4-H.

Agricultural Manpower deals with the rural manpower advisory corps, and it deals with some of the manpower issues as they relate to the farm labour pools. MR. G. CUMM INGS: One question reg arding the recoverable funds in 4-H area, is that a shared item or are the items totally covered federally in that area? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman, what we do is we expend the funds. This amounts to cost-sharing that we receive from the Federal Government for training of 4-H leaders and volunteers for our shows and fairs, the specially shows that we have.

That recovers part of the training monies in terms of the volunteers and staff for the various shows. That is recoverable from Canada. The funding is expended by Manitoba and then there are certain items on which we can claim from the Federal Government, and that's what we're recovering on. This is just a small portion of the total funding for 4-H. MR. G. CUMMINGS: That was going to be my next question. Is this the proper area to ask what the expenditure is in that area? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, centrally , we have a Budget for - and I say centrally because this is the central branch of 4-H - in the neighbourhood of $200,000 for the youth specialist, 4-H leadership training and 4-H projects and activities centrally . As well, there are the regional specialists. Their funding in every region is contai ned in the Farm and Rural Development Divisi on. The actual field staff, the 4-H assistants in each region, they are funded under the Farm and Rural Development Division.

I would say the total Budget would be in the area of half-a-million for 4-H when you count the regional support and the central support. I'm not 10 0 percent certain, but in terms of what I have seen in the past, we're looking at about that amount of money in global terms. MR. G. FINDLAY: Of that $500,000, how much of it goes dir ectly to the 4-H Program, that which isn't used for salaries? 1006 HON. B. URUSKI: Pardon me? MR. G. FINDLAY: How much of the $500,000 goes dir ectly to the 4-H Program? In other words, how much of that really goes to salaries and how much is left over for actual use in the 4-H Program?

HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in the central Budget we are just discussing here, about $1 40,000 of that $200,000 would go to other than salary in the department. In terms of the regional expenditur es. I would say that a portion of that funding, of that total half-a-million, you're probably looking at about 50-50, or thereabouts. in terms of wages and staff who do the liaison work along with the volunteers in training and the course material. Of course the regions sponsor the summer activities and camps. That funding would be part and parcel of the regional funding. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Have there been any cutbacks in that area of money going to 4-H Programs in the last two, three or four years, or have there been in creases? HON. B. URUSKI: There was about four years ago a shift that we made of about $10 ,000 within the program. But when you calcula te everything that has gone on in 4-H over the last four or five years. and we're accused of emasculating the program which was not factual, but there has been.

I would say, a slight incr ease in terms of overall budgets in the same area, generally in line with increases that the rest of the department has seen in adminis trative support and work. MR. G. FINDLAY: This may have been asked already, but just what is the participation in 4-H? Is it remaining static or is it increasing slightly , or what's happening? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman, the last statistical year that we have is 19 84 and to give you a range for - I have statistics here for 19 81 to 19 84. In 19 81, we had 312 clubs; we went up to 320 in 19 82 and we're down to 313 in 19 84. So it's fairly static.

The number of members is basically in the 5,900 to 6,000 range and it's held fairly static in all four years, in that vicin ity. The number of leaders continues to be around the 2, 100 to 2,200 range. The volunteers it's fairly static - from 2, 14 0 in 1981 to 2, 12 0 in 19 84, so you're talking about fairly static. The number of new leaders, in fact, in the last two years is a little bit high er. lt was 676 in 1981; in 19 84 there were 715 new leaders. So there's some turnover and new blood.

As well, the number of new members. 19 81 had a low of new members of 1,89 1 new members; in 19 84, we went up to 2, 10 8. it's fairly static, but that's the kind of ranges we're in. The average age is running at around 12 years of age, with an average 10 years in the clubs, of running just under three years per activity or per member in the 4-H club. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is this the area. under Other Expenditures, where the part-ti me 4-H assistants in the various regions would come from, or would they come out of regional funding? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the 4-H aides would be under the regional budget.

They would be handled in the regions.

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)(2)-pass. 4.(e)

(3) Agricultural Societies- the Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: As I recall, the building grant that goes out to them is around $40,000 to $50,000 each year. With the number of societies, it works out to something over $1,000, or around $1,000 a society. In our rural communities, the Ag Society performs a very important function, not only in terms of putting the fair on each year, but a number of other functions that they sponsor and put on during the course of the calendar year. Many Ag Societies are faced, either fairly soon or in the next five to 10 years, with some major problems.

It's very difficult to cover their total expenditure by charging more at the gate because people tend to rebel if you increase the gate admission by 50 cents or $1.00 . Certainly no community wants to see any social function deteriorate over time.

One of the things that I want to ask the Minister is if there's any plans in the not too distant future of being able to find more funds for Capital Expenditures on the part of Ag Societies, particularly in the way of major facility construction, replacing buildings which in many cases are getting quite old, there's been the building grant, the annual grant was used to repair and patch up; but if we're going to maintain these Ag Societies on the annual fare, we need sometime in the not too distant future, some opportunity for major capital for building replacement, the grounds, improvement and things of that nature.

I would like his comments in that area. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I have had a number of discussions, not specifically with the board dealing with the Agricultural Society Program, but I've had meetings with our board as well. I should mention, I believe the board is the same board that's been there for, probably before my colleague's time - (Interjection) - Pardon me? A MEMBER: It's the only one you didn't . .. HON. B. URUSKI: No, I think you mean the Water Services Board , you remember, from your area, is still on ther e. There's several that we didn't . . . The membership still remains the same.

But I wanted to put this on the record for my honour able friend, that there is in my mind a concern that I think most communities have - and I share the concern the honourable member raises - I think what has to happen within communit ies - and of course communities would like someone else to make the tough decisions for them - in terms of how they go for additional money from whatever source , whether it's lotteries, whether it's through the Jobs Fund in terms of the Community Assets Program .

What I would like to see, quite frankly, is the public groups in many of the communities who are competing for scarce dollars in terms of capital dollars to say, all of us will not get everything that we ask for. Would it be better for us in the community and com bine our resources and say, all right, this year this group is the one that's going to apply and try and get capital funds. It's an easier thing to say than to make actually happen.

But I cannot see in the long term that there will be the abi li ty of communities to get into the act of competing, to continue the competition as between groups within a community, for scarcer and scarcer public dollars in terms of capital works.

So there will have to be some priorities set within the community and I think the sooner groups in communities sit down and deal with that question - because there will not be major amounts of new money - there may be one or two times in a number of years , some major fund s available to communities , but obviously five or six groups who may have competing interests in a community , all of them will not be able to benefit by those. I do not see, for example , a special program in terms of - in the short run anyway - in terms of major capital investments in Ag Societies.

I could see the money that we put in to rural projects, through lotteries or whatever programs , this group being eligible; but quite frankly that competition that does exist within communities as amongst groups, will be a problem in terms of who gets what in terms of the priorities. MR. G. FINDLAY: Just a l ittle further on that, the Minister has been in my hometown - I hate to talk about a personal situation - but you saw the building that community has got going and it took us four years to get it off the ground.

Then it's a year since they started, that's five years now; and it was a major grouping of organizations and a lot of effort to pull the thing together and it's still ongoing in terms of getting it done. Really, I guess, from their point of view they 're looking to what happened in Brandon, the Keystone Centre gets major funding. I realize it's the larger number of people being serviced , but they 're also wondering if the smaller centres could have that opportunity somewhere down the road.

You've pretty well answered, but those kinds of commitments within communities can be done, are being done, but the ability to fund some of those projects becomes a little bit difficult. HON. B. URUSKI: I have to say, as another member who serves a rural constituency, I always cautioned community groups , and I say that from the point of view that it's probably the easiest, in the short term, to get capital dollars , from whatever source.

The difficulty will be to pay those ongoing operating costs and those maintenance costs; and we see that with Brandon in terms of the provincial commitment to the Western Regional Centre, an agricultural centre of the province, and the province recognizing it as such. The major ongo ing cost is the operating. The capital dollars seem to come up because they're one time, but it's the ongoing costs .

The province , historically, has taken a different position vis-a-vis - and I say that quite openly - Brandon and any other community, because of the historical perspective of the Royal Winter Fair and the significance of Brandon to the western part of the pro vince and it's been recognized in that way. The same way for example that Austin is recognized in terms of the one agricultural museum in the provin ce. There have been a number of applications and considerations from other groups to set up major museums and some very good ideas in terms of agricultural museums. 1007

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 We have not encou raged them because it is the ongoing costs which, in fact, many communi ties cannot meet and the province in terms of its limited resources in terms of, I believe, our priorities we should be putting our money into at least one major institution as much as we can, and even that is likely not quite enough as I would like to see from time to time. But that's where we've said our commitment is to one institution, the same way as Brandon is the focal point for western Ma nito ba.

We've done the same thin g with the agricultural museum in Austin even though there have been requests from other regions of the province to set up major museums. MR. G. FINDLAV: Another comment in this area is, in some communities the buildings are old - and I'm thinking now I guess of rinks and if they're on Ag Society grounds or part of that facility - but the older structures are inefficient in terms of energy, operating costs are higher in other areas and they believe a new building is much more cost efficient and maybe the operating costs actually go down.

I know this is not the area to talk about it but many of these community leaders speak very strongly against demand building by Hydro which puts a high cost on them that they feel is unwarranted but that can be addres sed later, but is a major issue in terms of funding these kind of facilities on Ag Society grounds. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(eX3)-the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm glad the Min ister mentioned the museum. I was just sitting here waiting to ask about it.

I'm wondering under whose ini tiative the Manitoba Agricultural Museum was switched from the Department of Agriculture to the Department of Cultural Affairs. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the decision was made by the government, by Cabinet. lt took into account their ongoing deficit and the need to get that deficit under control and to bring about some, I guess I would say additional input, in terms of planning of museums, and ha ving the expertis e in the Cultur al Affairs Department which deals with the rest of the museums in the province to try and work through, over a number of years, on a deficit reduction program and a more stable fina ncial footing to the museum. That was basically the decision that Cabinet made. MRS. C.

OLESON: Did the Min ister have any input into just how the Department of Cultural Affairs was to handle this? For instance, is there going to be a major shift in the ch aracter of the museum? Are they going to suggest that it be dif ferent in some way; for instance, to run the same as agricultural museums in other provinces? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that a comprehensive review, and although I am not the Mini ster anymore, really should be undertaken of Austin to see what kind of impr ovements can be made to bring about greater public awareness, not only public awareness but public participation in that museum. I have been there on a number of occasions and I have enjoyed it, but outside of the Threshermen's 100 8 Reunion that museum brings through it very few people. When I say very few, it may be a few thousand in a year. The Threshermen 's Reunion is the big time during the year when a lot of Manitobans and Canadians visit that site.

There has to be a way to try and make tha t museum possibly bring in more people in to visit it because there are so many artifacts and so much history in that museum tha t I think the Cabinet felt that the Cultural Affairs Department, in terms of dealing with other museums and promotion, would be the better place for that one major museum to be dealt with. I hope in fact that in terms of the longer term, the financial stabil ity for tha t museum, even though agricultural has provided a stable income, it's not what the museum really required.

They required a fairly major infusion of dollars to fi rst of all get rid of that deficit. I think what has to be done is to change it just from a storage of artifacts to one of bringing people in and making it more possibly a living museum. I am not the expert in the area, I am giving you one member's opinion, but the expertise does lie for museums in tha t department. MRS. C. OLESON: The Honour able Mini ster touched on something he says should be more of a - what did you say? - living example.

I think that's one of the great features of that museum is the Reunion Days and the other days that are held where the machinery that's there is actually put into use and demons trations are done. Now, in some provinces they don't do tha t at all. The government says no, you store that thing in the shed and all you do is look at it. So I hope that that character of the museum is not going to be changed. I have been told that there are some changes that the government has suggested and they even, I am told, suggested that they cannot have the type of reunion days they hold.

Well, tha t is the only function that they have tha t really brings in mone y. I don't know why the government would suggest that they would cancel that sort of thing.

Now with regard to that, earlier this year, as I mentioned in question period the other day, the Museum Board came and made several representations to the government, to the Min ister and others, asking tha t their allocation for this year be given to them in advance so that they could get under way because there was a thought earlier this year they weren 't going to be able to open their gates, and now they are faced with the fact that the y may not be able to have their annual reunion if they don't get these funds.

I was talking to them yesterday and they still haven 't got that cheque that the Mi nster said was on the way. In the regular turn of events, they usually get tha t funding by now. They are asking for special dispensation this year, they are told that they'll get it, and it's coming later than it usually does. A MEMBER: That's two weeks ago it was in the mail. MRS. C. OLESON: Correct. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, first of all, any changes in terms of the character of the museum, I want to assure the honourable member, would not be imposed by anyone. I believe the character of the museum, if

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 there are going to be any changes, should be a complimentary one that really should be discussed and worked through a long period of time so that everyone involved in the process , if there is going to be any change, is satisfied with the change and will in fact be one that will bring in greater numbers of people to visit that museum. I have not heard of a suggestion and I don 't know who would have suggested this to the museum that they now shouldn't hold their Threshermen's Reunion. I agree with the honourable member.

If someone did, quite frankly, that is the one time of the year that that board and that museum has an opportunity to raise some money. The living museum as a concept , and I am not saying that is what 's going to occur , would be one that there would be someone there for a longer period of time than the four days of the Threshermen 's Reunion when in fact there is public participation and activities in the whole process of farming, steam engines, stooking and threshing. You know, I know the Brandon Fair, one year that I was there, I sure got into the act.

I hadn't pitched stooks since I was , as the saying goes , knee high to a grasshopper, and it was a good opportunity to recollect some of the younger days . But the funding for Austin is now within the department. If that cheque isn't there , it should be there , quite frankly . They are going to receive their money, that undertaking is there, but there is more than the question of just this year's operating . We have to address the longer term and that deficit that is plaguin g that board. MRS. C.

OLESON: Some time ago there was an agreement worked out, I think it must have been with the Tourism Branch, for a Destination Manitoba grant to do with a building program . Is that still ongoing ? Will they still get that Destination Manitoba money? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I can't answer that question at all. I wish I could, but I can't confirm or deny one way or the other where that is in the process.

I think one of the major considerations , and I'm not even sure that my colleague can answer that , because one of the major considerations is it's fine to apply for a grant from another arm of government , but the real question of that museum has to be the addressing of that deficit and wiping that out and mak ing those kinds of assessments. That would be part of that overview that I would assume would be undertaken in conjunction with the Department of Cultural and Historic Services . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E.

CONNERY: Before the decision was made to take the museum out of Agriculture and put it into Culture and Heritage, was it discussed with the board of directors of the Austin Museum? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of actu al discussion before the fact, no, there was no discussion with the board before the fact . I did communicate with the board after the fact, advising them that the shift is being made .

Quite frankly, in the long term , it's not only my hope, it's really the intention to provide them with , I believe, much more favourable conditions in terms of funding because they will be eligible in terms of the Lottery funds that might be availab le. To me, they have to address the longer term and there are , quite frankly, more dollars available there than there would be for those kinds of activities in the Department of Agriculture . MR. E.

CONNERY: Does the Minister of Agriculture honestly believe that the museum at Austin will be better served under Culture and Heritage , which is basically an urban-oriented function, than und er Agriculture? I don't think it will, and I think you're doing an injustic e to the agricu ltural museum by moving it out of Agriculture . It is an agr icultural museum and it is basic ally for agricultural people . I think you 've made a gross error . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I was advised by staff and I gave the hon ourab le members what my involvement was.

Over the year s, I am advised that our staff have, in fact, explored various options of funding and possible funding options with the board of directors. I want to tell my honou rab le friend that most museum s across this cou ntry, I think the agricultural museum in Saskatchewan, mos t of them are funded out of the cultural and museum areas of provincial budgets. I think this one, in fact, is probably one of the last that's been in the department. Quite frankly, the member can make whatev er case he wants and damn whatever he wants.

He may be in fact doing that museum , if he insists on having it back here , a greater disservice in not being able to have the kind of flexibility that the Department of Museu m Resources has because of Lotte ry funding. MR. E. CONNERY: Does that mean that the Minister of Agriculture is not concerned and interested in the museum at Austin, which is an agricu ltural museum? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , you know , I don' t even want to get into a debate at that kind of level with the honourable member . Mr.

Chairman, I gave his colleague , the Member for Vird en, comments th at there have been other applications for other museums in the Province of Manitoba . We have basically said our commitmen t as a province is to one major agricultural museum and that is in Austin . We have kept it at that. We could have said, yes, we will allow you to go to whatever source you want and we'll allow two or three museums . Would that have been doing a service to agriculture in the Province of Manitoba?

Then you would have had a legitimate complaint in this Hous e, saying you 're now allow ing this museum to die on the vine , and you would have been accurate - (Interjection) - Pardon me? MR. G. FINDLAY: There are five in Saskatchewan. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, if in fact you now want to say let's invest in five, let's hear that, because that will add to the numbers that add on in terms of the request. We didn 't take th at position . We have worked with the board . We have had close liaison in 1009

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 the provision of student support during the summer. There has been a cl ose, harmonious working relationship. Mr . Chairman, I ask the Member for Portage just to not do a dis service to that museum by making the kind of, I would call, uninformed charges that he's making. MR. G.

FINDLAY: A couple of programs that have been run in the department that are well-received in the count ry, and one is the century farm signs that were commenced back in the late Seventies by the Lyon admin istration in the recognition of the ag societies that celeb rate a 100th fair , are those programs still going to be maintained for the foreseeable future? The century farm signs and the recognition of the 100th fair , is that going to carry on for the foreseeable futue? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman, yes, in fact, it is continuing and I expect that it will be continue.

I think the idea that was brought forward by your colleague during his term in office was a good idea in terms of the recognition of century farms, and we have supported it and intend to continue that support to those farm families where the farm has remained in the family for at least one centu ry. Yes, I fully endorse that concept and I'm very proud of that program in terms of the recognition of those family farms. I give your colleague his full marks on that one. MR. G.

FINDLAY: I guess a couple of my colleagues have some questions, it's back a line or two, if the Mini ster would be prepared to go back in Technical Services on some questions that were missed earlier . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: In the area of entomology , the provi nce has, ho w many people in entomology? Entomology will be an extension service, but they must be working with the university as far as some of the information that these people are using. What is the relationship between the two? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr .

Chairman, there is a very close relationship between the un iversity and our entomology staff. I'm advised that our chief entomol ogist, Dave Smith, does even deliver some lectures at the University of Manitoba on entomology and some of the expertise that he has had in the practical sense so that there is a very close working relationship. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(3) - the Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: Is there adequate funding? Are the requests from the farmers being adequately met? I don't know.

We get good service, but are the total requirements of the province being met in entomology , or is there a backlog of requests? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that there is any backlog of requests. There may be at times that it may be a little while before we can deal with all the requests. During the summertime, of cours e, we do supplement the regular staff with summer students who come from the university in terms of assistance in monitoring some of the work that the branch does.

So we do assist the branch with, I think, th ree or four summer staff as students in the university involved in addition to the regular staff that we have for the summer, specifically in the entomology area. I'm not aware of any sort of major lacking work in terms of response and our staff have advised me on that as well. MR. E. CONNERY: In the area of the honeybees, in the past there have been some concerns and some severe damage from aerial spraying at a time when it had to be done.

What is the provincial program now for protecting beekeepers, or I guess paying them for their losses if there is a severe spraying program? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there has never been any ongoing program within the province to compensate beekeepers for loss of bees. When we did spray for encephalitis, the outbr eak in the province a number of years ago, this was the first time I believe anywhere in Canada that a province automatically said if there are going to be losses, we will compensate directly on a formula established working with the Beekeepers' Associa tion.

On that major program, I believe there are still two claims outstanding and I want to tell - I don't know if I conveyed it to my honourable friend from Portage - I think that from the precedents that would set, that those two agreements should be signed and so those final payments can be made because there will be no change in policy in this area. So I think the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose knows of what I speak.

But in terms of the ongoing spraying, dealing with aerial applicators, we do try and cooperate between the aerial applicators, our staff and beekeepers to try and advise aerial applicators as best one can of the locations of beehives in the province. Of course, the member knows that honey production is now an insured crop under crop in surance and for any loss in production. I'm not sure whether it in fact covers losses due to spray damage, because that would be a liability clause that would be borne by the aerial applicators, but from other production losses.

The Province of Manitoba did pioneer several years ago to automatically compensate losses due to aerial spraying that was undertaken by the province.

We did, in fact, in one instance - I should share with my honourable friend, he maybe read about it - here just east of Winnipeg, did move a huge amount, I may be wrong in my amount, but something like 10 million or several million leafcutter bees and there was four, five or maybe six hours notice tha t the spraying would go on in the Oakbank area and a troop of local people, our staff, RCMP gathered up all the leafcutter bee houses or shelters and moved them into the curling rink for a period of 48 or 72 hours, pending the spray being dis si pated, and in fact very few losses occurred as a result of that move.

The bees were kept in basically cold storage and we had almost no losses in the process. lt was a good community effort in terms of trying a dif ferent approach in terms of trying to save the bees. it's my hope, of course, Mr. Chairman, tha t the Province of Manitoba in the longer term will really refrain from that kind of massive spraying program. it's a 1010

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation . You kind of spray the more populated areas, and the rest of society, those of us who live in the boondocks in rural Manitoba, as some would put it. - (Interjection) - Well, there are some that would say that because we are not ... MR. J. ERNST: Are you talking about Charleswood? HON. B. URUSKI: No, not Charleswood. It would just be impractical to provide that kind of service . I think really it's not warranted and , hopefully, we've learned from our past and we'll go on to the future .

But that's generally how we handle the question of working with applicators. MR. E. CONNERY: That must have been quite a stinger of an event when you moved all those bees. - (Interjection) - They don't sting , yes, the leafcutters don't sting . Does the department have any regulations or recommendations as far as bees and spraying and so forth?

I know in the Portage area where we do an awful lot of spraying on the vegetable crops and the chemicals may kill the bees, but we'll have somebody move in a bunch of beehives in behind a bluff , next to a field that is sprayed, doesn't tell anybody, and then of course is all upset because some of the bees get killed . Are there recommendations or regulations as to kind of eliminate this sort of tragedy and confrontation? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, that's really the practical difficulty of co-ordination as the member points out , that exactly happens as he indicated where someone, in fact, moves in - a colony of bees or several colonies of bee hives - into an area that the one spraying isn't aware of. That's why we attempt to assist in co-ordination of spraying if we know and in co-operation with the beekeepers, but it's a matter of communication. There are no regulations per se.

People can, in fact, with permission, of course, of the property owner can put their bee hives wherever they get permission to, but there is no specific regulation in that respect . Mr.

Chairman , in our ... of aerial applicators, part of the training program try and provide some training for visual identity in terms of being able to spot those kinds of situations with air hives, but I fully agree, not always possible, and the scenario , as I've indicated earlier that the member pointed out, is one of those practical difficulties that I think from time to time will occur and no one will be able to really avoid those kinds of occurrences from time to time . MR. G.

FINDLAY: In terms of the use of pesticides in and around areas where honey bees are operating , there' s naturally the opportunity for residues to reach the honey supply. Is there any kind of monitoring going on to determine if such is happening and has ther e been occasions where residue levels in honey at harvest have found to be above the maximum tolerable residue level? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we're not aware of any problem in this area, although I believe that there may some testing that goes on in terms of the honey co-op for quality testing .

That one I'd have to take as notice and find out whether or not the extent of the monitoring that does go on, and whether not , in fact, some residues get picked up by the bees after the fact. I'm not sure that does, in fact , occur but we'll get the technical advice and try and provide it for my honourable friend . Mr. Chairman, the inspections in terms of the quality of honey would not be done by the province . It would be done by the federal people in terms of food products inspection, but we'll try and get some further information for my honourable friend . MR. G. FINDLAY: Just for my own inform ation.

Does not the province have a residue testing laboratory somewhere in its buildings around here? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , there was a dual service being operated in the province . There was a provincial one and a federal one . In this whole area we cooperate with the federal people. We no longer run a pesticide residue lab, we've cooperated that service with the federal people because we were runn ing a duplicate service in the province. MR. G. FINDLAY: Just further to that . With the funding you give to the University of Manitoba is the re not one out there and do you not utilize that service? HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Chair man, yes, the member is correct in that assert ion. We would still do some if we had occasion to do some monitoring and testing , but generally, any work that's undertaken we cooperate with the fede ral people in this whole area . 1011 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: I'm not sure what they call it, Mr. Chairman , but is it a mite that is coming in out of the Southern States? What is being done to insure that the bees in Manitoba don't get infested with it? Is there an adequate inspection program on? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the mite that the member speaks of is the acarine disease , acar ine mite. I'll provide him with some of the information that we have. During the summer of'84 acarine disease caused by the honey bee trachial mite , acarus woody - that's the technical name - was discovered for the first tim e in the United States . In an attempt to insure that Canad ian beekeepers ' needs for U.S. packaged bees are met with disease -free bees, an agreement was reached last year with the U.S. officials to inspect U.S. apiaries that ship bees to Canada.

Only those U.S. apiaries that were inspected and certified to be apparently free of acarine disease were allowed to ship bees to this country. During the summer of 1985 , two summer students were hired to assist the Manitoba Agriculture staff in examining U.S. packages entering Manitoba for acarine disease . A total of 805, 100-bee samples from 21 U.S. shippers were analyzed with no acarine disease being detected . MR. E. CONNERY: Under the area of the Agricultural Engineer in the assistance to farmers on buildings, one

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 of the real big problems for vegetable storage is for an adequate preservative. There's been much discussion and much loss of buildings and the very short lifespan of buildings because of the inadequate material to protect the wood. Where are we at now? I know in the last year or two there's been a lot of discussion over it with the federal people. I think there's been a lot of discussion with the potato storage at Portage. Does the Minister have some answers for that? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , I'm trying to go through the various areas where engineering staff have been involved and I'm not certain that I can provide the honourable member with any defini tive information on the specifics of his question dealing with the quality of wood. I will give him some general comments here. Work has commenced on a project to analyze the performance of various components of the vegetable and potato storage ventilation system . The objective is to further refine the recommended design parameters of this critical area for vegetable production .

I'm not sure that, in fact , deals with the question of the ability of wood - a wood preser ver - that is safe and lasts in terms of it being able to hold the building together without basically rotting and falling apart in very quick order. That was the member 's comment . I'll get our staff to get some comments and either provide it verbally or in writin g to my honourable friend. I don' t have that information handy. MR. E.

CONNERY : Is the Minister aware of the problems that are being experienced by the Plains Potatoes Storage at Portage in their renovation of the roof , vis-a-vis their problems with Ottawa with the engineers over the use of certain material as to whether they're making some progress . There was a large grant that may be in jeopardy. HON. B. URUSKI: We don't have any information that we can share with the Member for Porta ge at this point in time. We'll add it to the questions that he's raised, and try and provide that to him as soon as we can . Let me just clarify that , Mr. Chairman.

We'll check the record in terms of his comments and then get it back to him . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: With regard to the Farm Machinery Board, can you give us some idea as to what activities they have ongoing? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I can provide the honourable member with a resume of, for example, the activities of the board in terms of complaints by category . The bulk of the complaints that we would receive, for examp le , last year we received 109 complaints.

The bulk of the complaints would be warranty complaints; 50 of the 109 were warranty; 21 were service; 14 wer e parts availability ; and 24 were other. Now , other, would be other tha n those - Mr. Chairman, in terms of the question of repossessions of farm equipment that are dealt with by the board , because that's one area that the board has jurisdiction over in terms of the conditional sales contracts which dealers, both on new and used equipment, use and which incidentally are exempted by our present legislation.

During the period of April 1, 1985, to February 1, 1986, 92 app lications for leave to repossess were received by the board. Each application was thoroughly investigated and assistance rendered to the producer by means of financial counselling, also negotiations with the lender for grace periods, extensions and often rescheduling of payments, which often enabled the producer to retain possession of the farm machinery and thus continue with the farming operations .

The board 's records indicate a significant portion of the applications now being received are being filed against producers for the second and, in some instances, the third time. This indicates that producers experiencing financial pressure in the past continue to have the same problem . Of sign ificant importance is that with the board 's intervention and the counselling service provided by administrative staff 75 percent of the applications for leave to repossess are resolved to the satisfaction of both the lender and the producer.

So we've been able to mediate fairly successfully in this whole area of farm equipment. This whole process, of course, is tied into the financial counsell ing through our farm management specialists in the reg ions and the like. Mr. Chairman , for information of honourable members , as of January 31, 1986 , the board has 423 licensed dealers and 165 licensed vendors . A condition of licensing requires both the dealer and the vendor to post with the board a penal bond of an amount designated by the board . Penal bonds are available from surety companies or subscr ibed for under the Farm Machiner y Act Fund .

It must be noted that the Farm Machinery Act Fund is administered with the identical rigid standards common in the bondin g industry . MR. G. FINDLAY: When an individual or a company has a complaint or a repossession , do they have to appear before the board before action can take place, or is there a streamlined method of handling the complaints? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, when the member speaks of complaint , is he tal king about the service or a problem with repossession?

I'm not sure - (Interjection) - okay, I would think that , for example, in terms of availab ility of parts as being one of the - not so much anymore but it was a number of years ago - warranty. Generally speaking , a telephone call outlining the circumstances, and if it can be resolved basically by a telephone call and information back again they can be handled that way. But a number of these complaints, when the staff investigating get another side of the story, the situation becomes mor e complicated.

It then would requ ire, I'm sure, a letter in writing from the individual complaining and likely a process of arbitration and mediation would ensue between the board and the farmer and the machine dealer to try and resolve the issue . 1012 In the same manner, it would be, in terms of the leave to repossess , farmers would contact the board.

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 I'm not certain whether the board requires something in writing, but I would think that the board would require a letter saying we want your intervention . I want your intervention in this process, because I'm being threatened with repossession. Is there a way of mediating this process? They would then , of course, try and alert our staff and appeal to see - when it comes to farm machinery, that's only the tip of the iceberg. What is the total financial situation?

Are there some options in there and can we, in fact, provide some financial counselling and then see what options are available to the board in the mediation and arbitration process? MR. G. FINDLAY: In th ose situations , does either side have an appeal process if they're not satisfied with the initial contact with the board? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I'd have to check that legal question . I believe that - maybe the Clerk could get me The Farm Machinery Act , but I believe that decision of the board is final. I'm not certain that there may be an appeal from the decision to the Cou rt of Appeal.

If it is, I'm just not up to date on that. We'll get The Farm Machinery Act, and we'll check it out . MR. G. FINDLAY: Does the Farm Machinery Board deal with problems between, say, two farmers where they've got an agreement on a piece of equipment, or is it only dealing with licensed dealers and vendors? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , the Farm Machinery Board would deal primarily with the conditional sales contracts . Any private dealings, the Farm Machinery Board would not be involved in that process. It would be dealing with primarily the legal instruments as defined in the act . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)(3) - the Member for Portage . MR. E. CONNERY: The PAMI Agricultural Institute, what is the percentage that Manitoba puts towards that? I think it's a three- or four -province agreement, the PAMI? It's four? Three. What is the percentage that Manitoba pays towards that institute? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , it's a three-province agreement: Manitoba, Saskatchewan , Alberta. Manitoba's share in that agreement is 20 percent. MR. E. CONNERY: What would that be in dollars? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, $470,000 .00. MR. E.

CONNERY: In the area of general farm management, I would say that I've had a significant amount of involvement with different programs that the department does. I must say that I'm very pleased and appreciative of what they've done. Can the Minist er elaborate on the difference? I know the areas that I've been involved where they 've put on specific programs where it's been a joint-funded, partly province and partly producers involved. I'd like a little bit of an outline on it because I think in this area, the area of general farm management is one of the keys to the survival of agriculture.

A lot of the problems that we see now, with the need for The Family Farm Protection Bill, maybe relates to farm management. I'd like to know the extent and the concern that the department has over the farm management courses. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honour ab le member for those comments . I wish to indicate to him that the major thr ust of this government , of this department over the last five years , has specific ally been , in terms of extension thrust , in the whol e area of farm financial management and, of course, technology transf er.

But the financial management and counselling and upgrading, managemen t upgrading, has been our major thrust both in terms of families and individua ls, and in the various farming operations . We've had the one-to-one beef consultant program , which basically did cos t projections on beef farms and assisted farmers in doing their projections . We've gon e into the whole area of farm business groups, whereby there 's a two-year farm financial management program dealing with law and all aspects of accounting and dec ision mak ing and the like . It's a very extensive program .

Our whole staff orientation , both from the hom e ec side and the extension staff, our management ag rep , has been in this whole area. In fact, I believe that we've been complimented by writers right across Western Canad a as being the innovator and leader in this whole area of extens ion thrust. In fact, so much so, that even the universities in the last couple of years have recognized the needs and have , in terms of their instructional staff , gone into beefing up their whole course studies with expertise in the farm managemen t specialist at the university level.

That has been our major thrust and it continues to be our major thrust in the departmen t. MR. E. CONNERY: What is the manpower and the financial commitment to th is program versus the previous years? Has the department increased the manpower and the dollars available to education , or has it remained static, or has it gone down? Where 's it at? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there have been increased dollars flowing into this whol e area of farm management. In terms of our thrust, we have incr eased the farm management staff within the department on a regional basis across the province.

As well , our whol e th rust in terms of ag reps has been in general more towards the farm management side than it has been on the technical side .

That's not to say that we still don 't provide a continuum of information in those areas but our major thrust has been on the farm management side , with the increase in staff and training for staff, both ag re ps , farm m an agement specialists, and updating in terms of staff tra ining , counselling, the whol e area of comput eriza tion in terms of hav ing many compu ters available in pretty well - it will be by the end of this year - prett y well one in every ag rep office to facilitate , I guess basically the demand on the worklo ad of st aff to assist producers in financial projections and the like , and the training of our staff to be able to handle that kind of work and to benefit produ cers. 1013

Tuesday, 17 June, 1986 Work that normally took maybe a whole day can now be done in one to two hours in terms of projections and multiple projections, which would normally take a day or longer. Those are the areas of increase. I think there's been an increase of about five or six staff in the farm management area, both centrally and in the regions, over what there was, say, five years ago.

To answer the honourable member's question about The Farm Machinery Act , there has to be a letter submitted by the individual asking for the board to investigate the demand for repossession , or the possible repossession of the equipment. The board then does mediate and where the board grants leave to a lien holder to repossess farm machinery and equipment, or refuses leave to a lien holder to repossess farm machinery and equipmen t, the purchaser or the lien holder, as the case may be, with in 10 clear days of the date of the decision of the board , apply to a Judge of the Court of Queen 's Bench , (

c) in the case of the pur chasers, for an order revokin g the leave granted to repossess, or in the case of the lien holder, for an order granting leave to repossess . So either one can still appeal to the court if they 're not satisfied with the decision of the board. MR. E. CONNERY: Does the department have some sort of mandatory action where people that are going through MACC, whe ther it be in the Interest Rate Relief Program, or Debt Consolidation, where they 're obligated to take some of these financial courses to help them on their way? Is there some sort of mandatory program? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I would put it in this way. There is no mandatory program but I can say that there's strong encouragement. MR. E. CONNERY: Non-mandatory program. On the Portage Action Project , what is the position of the government now vis-a-vis the farm laboure r in the vegetable industry? I don't know what the official position is at this point. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, it hasn 't changed for the last number of years. - (Interjection) - Pardon me? Something like lupins. MR. E. CONNERY: Mr.

Chairman, we did have an excellent LEAP program which , when we were today in the logger's group , also, they were discussing absenteeism and I think the Portage area had an exc ellent program in the LEAP program where they were assisting workers who had problems. The workers we are dealing with are people with multi problems , whether they be financial, whether they be alcoholic or family-related programs. Unfortuately, this program was deleted . It was a federal-provincia l joint program, I do believe . There is no program that has taken the place of this one. There is a program but it's for all workers. HON.

B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we do still provide the limited counselling that our staff people can provide. The member is correct, the extent of the type of program that LEAP did provide was , I'm sure , a loss to some of those in the industry . Mr. Chairman , the programs to the vegetable industry and services, in 1985, wer e as follows. Daily transportation service bringing workers to the farms, funded by Employment and Immigration Canada . Training for this year: a personnel management seminar was delivered to 29 vegetable and potato growers.

Topics included selection , recruitment, induction , motivation and remuneration. Continuing availability of resources of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba for any employee assistance program needs that arise , and continued use of inmates from Headingley and Portage on an ad hoc basis. There were 241 employees on the three farms employing offshore labour in 1985 and -