• • • • • • • •• • • • • ) . VOL. 3 PRELUIINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSErffiLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00P.M. - 6~00 P.H . l!ONDAY, JUNE 8, 19.78 NO. 83 :

• • • • • • • • • • • June 8, 1978 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the ~hair. MR. SPEAKER: Tape 4106 EC - 1 Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 280 residents of the communities of Burlington and Smith's Harbour . The prayer _of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is outlined on the first page and I will read it. It is very much to the point.

It says: Since 1973, two petitions have been ·sent frov the three communities in this area -~he third one not named in the present petition, of course, is Middle Arm - to our district representative for presentation to the House of Assembly, requesting that the road from Burlington to the Baie Verte Highway, roads connecting our communities, and the local roads, be upgraded. In the last petition, three specific requests were made.

They were as follows: 1) remove brush from the edge of the Burlington - Baie Verte Highway road; 2) straighten and upgrade the road from the Baie Verte Highway to the three- communities, including the local roads; and 3) pave all roads mentioned not later than 1976. In response to the two petitions, the brush was cut, some gravel put here and there, and a little ditching done. Our roads now are in a much worse state of deterioration and with a goodly portion of. the Burlington - Baie Verte Highway road being used considerable by huge wood trucks, it is bound to worsen.

"~e, the residents of Burlington and Smith's Harbour are fully aware of the present economic 9~4 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4106 EC - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: situation in our land. However, our first appeal was made in much better. times and we are now disturbed at such near total indifferenc~ to our situation.· Once again, we are making a~ appeal and we are askinl for due consideration and that action be taken this summer.

We are requesting 1) that the Burlington - Baie Ve~te Highway road be straightened and given a good covering of gravel, that culverts be put in where they are needed and guard~ails be put near the Burlingto~ - Baie Verte Highway intersaction; 2) upgrade the road connecting our two communities and put in guard~ rails at Perry's Cove and Mill's Cove; and 3) pave the local roads in the two communities." Now, Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of this petition, I would have to say that this must be o~e of the most reasonable requests that a group of citizens have ever sent in the form of a petition to this House.

They are not demanding that twenty miles of road be upgraded and paved immediately. They have also indicated in the prayer of their petition that they realize the financial strain that the Province is in, but they are also pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that they made those requests when things were much better than they are today, in fact, the first petition, I believe, as they indicate, was sent to this House in 1973, some five years ago. They All are not expecting a lot of reconstruction and paving. they are asking is that the road be straightened.

And there are some people in this House who have had occasion from time to time to travel that road. There are some vicious turns in it that ought to be straightened out. The road is nothing only ballast rock in many places, because the top has not been rebuilt on it for. ·years and years on 9405

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4106 EC - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: end. So their request, Mr. Speaker, I wouid say to the House! is v~ry, very reasonable. They are not asking for a lot of pavement, they are asking that the road be put in some sort of half decent shape ~ that some gravel be· placed on the top of it so it can be graded and that some of the worst turns be taken out of the road so it will be made a little safer, that some guardrail be put in -.all very reasonable.

And they are not expecting that it all be done at one time, but they are expecting.- and I think rightly so and justifiably so - that some start be made, All that was done three or .four years ago was that th~re were a few places straightened otit, a little bit of gravel _put on here and there, and some bru~h cut away from the ·side of the road. That needs to be done again now, Mr~ Speaker, because the road has worsened since that time. They also point out in the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, and again, rightly so, that this road is used by a great deal of heavy traffic .

Bowaters and private operators are - I suppose twenty-five or thirty truckloads of wood a day are hauled over the length of the Burlington Road up to the Baie Verte access road and on out to Sandy Lake for transportation to the Bowaters mill. So in addition to serving the three communities, of course, it has the economic impact that • a lot of people are using it for the transportation of wood to the 'mill. So, Mr. Speaker, I wholeheartedly support the prayer of the petition. I do hope that the Minister of Transportation will give it 9406 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, .1978 Tape 4107 PK - 1 Mr. Rideout: the serious consideration. it deserves, that the reasonable request, a very reasonable request, no demands, just a request that something be done to improve it. They are not even asking for payment, and it is a rare day here that you do not get a petition here asking for pavement, but they are asking that it be put in reasonable shape. I think, that reasonable request ought to be given priority by the minister,· and I would hope that he could direct his maintenance crews in the area to do something with that road this year. Mr.

Speaker, I table the petition and ask that it be referred to the.department to which it relates • ·r1R. SPEAKER: .MR. PECKFORD: The han. the Minister of Mines anq Energy. Mr. Speaker, as the gentleman who one time represented the area of Burlington's-Smith's Harbour-Middle Arm, having been in Burlington and Smith's Harbour last weekend,I wish to rise to support whole-heartedly the petition just presented so ably by the han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. The highway,in question,is a very· important highway now. It is much more important now than it was eight or ten years ago.

It gained importance because of the fairly active amount of woods ~1ork that is now presently going on in the area. There is a fairly major sawmill just established there in the last six months which is going to be producing around 4.5 million board feet of lumber in this present year. And there is also a number of woods contractors who are now active in the area for Bowaters, and who are going to be escalating their efforts in the next couple of weeks and months.

There are also several new sawmill operations about to begin, and all and_ all therefore from an industrial economic point of view the road needs to be kept in fairly good shape to · allow transportation of the pulp wood and the lumber product from the area for market, primarily to Corner Brook, and also to Central Newfoundland . As the hon. member has pointed out it is a very reasonable request. The people in the Burlington area are very reasonable people. There was a fair amount of work done on the road several years on topping the road, and as the han, member pointed out 9407

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4107 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: some brush clearing and so on, turns, some of the most dangerous curves on the road are on the Burlington end of it, near the settlements, as one gets closer the Baie Verte Highway the road is straighter.

I drove over the road last Friday; and the road is not in that bad a shape with the topping, but it is narrow in places, there needs to be more brush clearing • As far as the part of the prayer of the petition . . dealing with pavement through the communities I do not know if that is really realistic because to do it just for the communities there would be very expensive.

But some dust control could be used in the communities no doubt and would help a lot because the main road runs· right through the communities, especially through.Burlington, Middle Arm is to a lesser extent, but Burlington especially is very· dusty in the Summertime. It is a very reasonable request, _and the area has become extremely important over the last number of years economically from a woods point of.

And I support the prayer of the petition hoping that the forces in the area, the maintenance forces in the area can at least accede to a number of the requests contained therein to improve, to top up the road a bit, and to take out some of the most dangerous turns. So I fully support the petition and the hon. member in his desire to have it done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d •·Espoi r. MR. SIMMONS: ·Mr.

Speaker, it is· my p 1 easure to support the petition presented by my colleague from Baie Verte-White Bay, endorsed, signed by 280 people in Burlington and Smith's Harbour. know the area fairly well having been involved in the educational distrcit 1~hich covers those two communities. The Minister of Mines just. told·. us he was do~m to Burlington last weekend, he was there, of course, attending the official opening of a Canada Horks project, another good federal project. I fully expect my colleague from Baie Verte-Hhite Bay (Mr .

Rideout) if he follows the procedure in this case to write a nasty letter to the editor objecting the minister of being in his district, and that kind of thing. The fact is we are not so sensitive here, Mr, Speaker, 9408 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4107 . PK ~ 3 Mr. Simmons: on this side. We are glad that the minister did get a chance to get in and see the road. And, perhaps, Mr. Speaker, because he knows the condition of the road because he used to be the member for that part of the coast, and especially, Mr. Speaker, especially, 9409

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 .Tape No. 4108 NM - 1 ~IR. Sr.1MONS: because it is a tremendous opportunity for the Minister of Mines and Energy, through his colleagues in Cabinet, to do the people of the Baie Verte Peninsula a service, to undo some of the harm he did earlier, ·an opportunity for him to be a bit contrite, a bit penetant in compensation for his vi'cious poison pen letter to Mr. Dwyer. Perhaps this would be an opportunity fnr the minister - ~. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must point out to the hon. gentleman that while speaking on the petition, references, disagreements of opinion or that bettveen an hon. gentleman and the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy would be peripheral to the petition and as a matter of fact one can could even say irrelevant . MR. S L'1UONS : Yes, I meant it Mr. Speaker, to be just a passing reference and I thought it a good opportunity for the minister to make some amends and to get the road upgraded, the road from Burlington· up to the hlghway. It needs to be straightened up a bit. It does need some culverts as I remember it.

It does need to be upgraded. MR. NEARY: lfuat is the - NR. SI~!HONS: They have been the victim of some washouts and I hope the minister would be as compassionate as he was in the case of the Rattling Brook situation, albeit very belatedly compassionate down there. It took two washouts. Indeed it took them four days to get dmrn there although he lvas tHenty mile's up the road in South Brook over Christmas.

But he did eventually do something about the Rattling Brook situation and to avoid washouts on this road we would hope he and his colleagues would do something substantial on that particular road too, the Burlington to Baie Verte Highway road, also the road between the communities concerned, and also of course the matter 9410

• • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape :<!o. 4108 :m - 2 ~!R. SI:-~ONS: of paving in the communities concerned. Now I do not want to hear anything else about restraint, Mr. Speaker, because it is a term that is dragged in very conveniently. The m~~er for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) today in his announcemtns did not mention restraint very much when he was talking about paving roads in his district.

So I say to the Minister of Transportation that he should talk to his colleague behind him and find out where he is getting the money and then put some into this very worthy· cause here, the paving of the roads in a couple of communities, and certainly a worthy cause in Bonavista North, Mr. Speaker, it is certainly a worthy cause and a very '~orthy cause in Burlington and Smith's Harbour and I hope that if restraint is to be-applied it would be applied fairly judiciously all over the Province, if restraint is the term for it. Hr.

Speaker, so much can be said about a petition like this because it not only draws attention to a very particular local need, it also draws attention to the government's overall discriminatory policy insofar as road construction and upgrading is concerned. ·And I have mentioned, Mr. Speaker, the situation in·Bonavista North and the situation in Rattling Brook and Green Bay, and they are very different. The treatment they are getting is very different from the people of Smith's Harbour a:nd Burlington are g.etting. I only t~i'sh the Premier, the leader of the government were here to hear this, ~!r. Speaker.

Perhaps or. a nice day like today He could come up 'nth a gesture that '~ould please everybody. !·Jhy do ,.,e not move the House down to the Bally Haly golf course, Hr. Speaker, so the Premier can hear this debate on petitions and perhaps he Hill do something about the Burlington road. 1:-!R •• SPEA.'<ER: The han. !Unister of Transportation and Conmunications. 9411 :

• • • • • • • • • • • • Juce S, 1978 Tape No. 4108 ~N - 3 HR. DOODY: ~!r. Speaker, I •~ould like to rise in support of the petition so capably presented by the member for Baie Verte - '.fuite Bay (Hr. Rideout) and so ably and responsibly supported by the member for Green Bay (Hr. Peckford) ' · I think that the request3 in the petition are very reasonable indeed, Sir, and I will certainly take the matters referred to in the ,petition to the attention of the officials of the department and hopefully •·!e can accede .rith at least some of the requests and hopefully many of the requests that are in the.petition.

They are certainly not.unreasonable and at any time, particularly at this time • I should point out ·that it has been mentioned here that the restraint is a word we should not mention because the member for Bonavista North (l1r. Cross) made an announcement today of some consequence to the people of Bonavista North. I am delighted to hear that. I did not hear the announcement. There was also; Sir, I might mention for the sake of members of the House, that there .was a tender call in the paper this morning,! noticed, asking for people to tender 9412 :..

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4109 EC - 1 HR. DOODY: on the construct.ion of a r.oad to s.t. Julien's, a community on the Northern Peninsula in the district of the Straits, I think, a community that has been literally without communication for the past twenty some years of Confedera~ion. I see no ~artisanship there, Sir. I also know there was a tender called in the paper, I think, today for constructions of a road to Monkstown . believe that that is in part of our district . I do not SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. -DOODY: May I have the courtesy, Sir, of the same sort of attention that bon. members opposite had?

I simply want to point out-that we cannot discard the idea of restraint despite the fact that the finance critic on the opposite side of the House seems to think that that would be something that he does not want to hear about any more~ I simply want to say that there are many areas of this Province which have never been treated fairly irrespective of their representation, and I think that it is time, and I think that we have demonstrated by today's paper if nothing else, that we are paying attention to some of these areas just as we will try to pay s~me attention to the areas mentioned in the petition so ably presented here today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Young) MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! The hon.·the Minister of Tourism. Mr. Speaker, if there are no more supporters on the petition already being tabled, I would like to table another petition. MR.· SPEAKER: !efore I recognize the hon. member, I would like to welcome on behal~ of all members forty-three 9413

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4109 . EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Young) students from St. Clare's High Sc:hool in Carbonear, Grade IX, accompanied b-y- their teacher, Mr. Brian Mahoney. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: AN RON. MEMBER: yesterday . MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! The bon. the Minister of Tourism. (Inaudible) This is my third time now. He would not give you leave I could not.get leave yesterday, Mr. Speaker, but I do not need leave today. Mr.

Speaker, thii petition is from 195 residents in the community of Sweet Bay in Bonavista South district and the petition is requesting that the government consider this year the upgrading of the road from Sweet Bay to Charleston, approximately four miles of gravel road. Last year the main road to the community of Sweet Bay was paved; however, the road.linking Sweet Bay to Charleston is an important

section of road bec:ause many of the residents of Sweet Bay are employed at the fish plant operation at Charlesto~; in fac:t, I think last year that around s1~ty employees of the Charleston fish plant ·were from Sweet Bay, so therefore, the road is important to these people who travel back and forth each and every day. Also there is the fac:t that it is a very important school bus route. All the children have to leave Sweet Bay to travel outside that community to attend school. So the request is to have the road upgraded this year, hopefully, in preparation for paving.

Then it would mean that the road from the Cabot Highway down to the end of Sweet Bay would be all paved based on the fact that the road through Charleston is now paved down to the fish plant, and the .main road in the community of Sweet Bay was paved last year. 9414 :

• • • • • • • • • • • June 8~ 1978 Tape 4109 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table this petition and to have t~e petition.referred to the department to which it relates . MR. SPEAKER: (Young) Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: The hon. the member for I rise very briefly to support the petition, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of, I would think, members on this side, because obviously, it is badly neede~, the work referred to by the bon. the minister.

But particularly do I rise because again, we have a minister of the Crown who has demonstrated that he, too, is not prepared to take the wise, sage advice of one of his fellows who has maintained consistently both publicly and here in this House that petitions are a waste of time. Now I doubt very much if ~he people of Sweet Bay feel that way, otherwise they would not have asked the hon. 'gentleman to present it.

So we do support the petiti6n and we have nothing but scorn for those who abuse the public intelligence by attempting to infer that petitions that come before the House are a waste of time, because if they are then we should have some different methodology, perhaps, to make it more worthwhile so that people will not be deceived. I am pleased to see that the minister has brought in the petition ~bAdly ne~ded too, 9415

• • • • • • • •• • • • June S, 1973 Tape. 4110 !)H - 1 IlR. J. NOLAN: and a very, very well done one and for him to demonstrate that he indicates very clearly that he believes petitions do serve a useful purpose and what is more that it his· duty to do ·so, a duty which he honored today. SO}!E HON. HEKBEF.S: '{R • SPEAKER: h'est. Hear, hear! The hon. member for St. John's DR. KITCHEN: Xr. Speaker, I rise also to support this petition very briefly. The people of Sweet Bay certainly need a road •.

This was very recently brought to my attention too when we had an activity within our party involving people having to go to a nearby settlement to cast their vote for the Liberal_nominee in the. federal election and they found that going to that nearby settlement was a hardship because of the rough roads. AJ." RON. !1ENBER: So, I said at the earliest opportunity I would bring this to the attention of the House and I would like to thank the minister for the opportunity of giving me to support this petition. Thank you. l{R • SPEAKER: Transportation and Communications. tfR. DOODY: The hen. Minister of Mr.

Speaker, I really feel that this is a petition that is very worthy of support and one that I will be delighted to bring to the attention of the department and I have no doubt that most of the officials in the department are probably aware of it by noN I have no doubt that the l'redecessor has already advocated the case. Any doubt that I may have had about the legiti!mtcy and the urgency of the petition has been put to rest by the support of the member for St. John's \"est (Dr. Kitchen) · as I can find five Liberals anywhere to go to any meetin·g I will be delighted to do everything that I can to help . 9416

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 HR. SPEAKER: ~'R. W .N. RO\o.TE: Tape 4110 . m~ - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. Leader. of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, the·Minister of Labour and Manpower is not in his seat. I ~~onrler if he is within hearing range, Sir, if he would not mind - is he gone? AN HmT. HEHSER: l1R. S. NEARY: Put it to the ~tlnister of Health • ~ffi. H.N. ROl-lE: Well maybe I can put it to the Hinister of Health, Sir, I am concerned - · AN HO}! . ~!EMBER: He is coming. MR. W. N • ROl-lE: Okay, either he or the Minister of Heaith can answer the question.

Here he is, Sir, just finishing his lunch off now. Hard 1vorking minister, Sir, that is the kind o~ ministers we like to see. Luckily he is not following the example of his boss • ~lR. S • NEARY: today if he did. HR. W.N. ROV1E: hard working minister . MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. l·l.N. ROl·1E: lfR. HICKl!AH: He ~~ould down to Bally Hal v_. That is right. He is a , A point of order, Hr. Speaker. A po:l.nt of order has risen. lfuat is this? Just to correct the record, the hon. gentlemen again are wholly, totally, 100 per cent wrong.

The hon. the Premier is depPrting at .this moment to keep a speaking engagement outside the Province. SONE HON. 1-!El·n!ERS: Oh , oh! :·!R. W. N • ROlffi : Oh, yes! 9417 .

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 ~·IR. SPEAKER : hon. members that the ~ HR. S. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: Premier or any other member - M.R •. S • ~lEARY: there or what? ~IR. SPEAKER: Tape 4110 Order, please! I should point out to \o1here is he now? - whereabouts of the hon. Is there a salmon river dotm - in my opinion is irrelevant unless a specific question is based onr it . ~!R. lV.N. RGWE: Premier is, Mr. Speaker • :1R. S • NEARY : for him. HR. W.N. ROlffi: The hon. Leader. of· the Opposition. l-Ie will ask tomorrow where the Yes, we have some good stuff It seems very secret.

I would like to ask a genuine question to the Hinister of Labour and Xanpower or the l·{inister of Health - !11':.. S. NEARY: \o1hen he gets hack. HR • tv. N • ROl-lE : • depending on who feels like answering it, Sir. _ It,.concerns the lab and X-ray technicians and tha fact that they are having these~rotating strikes. And as I understand it, Sir, of all groups dealing with our hospitals the most potentially harmful, I suppose in terms of health care the absence of any group that could he most potentially harmful­ '~ould be the X-ray and lab ' technicians.

So would the niinister I have one or two stipplementaries for hi~ but first of all .vould the minster answer this question: lfuat now is the main point or points of dispute between the treasury board and the lab and X-ray. technicians? Hhat are the major points net~ Hhich both parties are 'at logger-heads on? NR. SPEAKER: Hon. minister • 9418

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4110 ~'R. ROUSSEAU : There are two issues, Hr. Speaker. one is the issue of .callback or standby duty and the other one is the issue of service credits. I do not know vhat the details of them are but these are the two main headings of dispute, service credits and callback or standby pay. ~m. HN. ROWE: HR. SPEAKER: HR. H.N •. ROlffi: A supplementary, Sir.

A supplemenaary. !{ay I ask either the Hinister of Labour and Hanpower or the Hinister of Health, Sir, in the event that there is a full-flec'lgerl Halk out, a legal strike by this bargaining unit throughout t~e Province what measures have been taken by the Hinister of Health if any to protect the ~1elfare of the public in this field, •this very important field, Hr. Speaker. Have any measures been taken to make sure that the jobs ordinarily done by the X-ray and lab technicians and done very vell can be carried on :In some makeship fashion until the strike might be over. 1)!·1 - 4 XR.. SPEAKE!.: l.ffi. H.

COLLINS : The hon. ~linister of Health. :1r: Speaker, in tent'-" of the larger hospitals the act~ons which have been taken so far 9419

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 3,197ll Tape No. 4111 AH-1 I·IR.COLLil\S: are not inhibiting too much the question of the hospital in terms of servicing the health needs of the people. At the larger hospitals there are management people available who can take up the slack of the work and in terms of the smaller hospitals where management peopie generally"speaking are not in place to be able to do this work it can present some problems for us however there is always the possibility there of course of referrals from the smaller center.s tlie larger centers.

The question which the hon. leader asked is what would happen if everybody goes out on strike. That is a hypothetical question but I would say that in terms of the manner in which the workers are now withdrawing their services we can live with that for some small period of time but if it is continued it will create some difficulties. The hospitals always have contingency plans in place, they do in this particular case, If all of the .lab and X-ray technicians withdraw their services then of course we.will have a bit of a calamity on our hands and we will not know what to do with that until the times comes. MR.

W.ROWE: l!R.SPEAKER: HR.W.ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. A supplementary. The Minister of Manpower did not seem to know the details of the dispute at the moment, he knew generally the stand-by and so on. Can the Minister of Health elucidate to the House in an~ greater detail what exactly is the problem? One reads news reports but one is never sure whether in fact they have zeroed in on the actual problem. Can the Minister of Health as the Minister of Health, Sir, and concerned about the health of our people, can he tell us what is the problem? What is the dispute at the moment?

How close are the parties together or how far are the parties apart? Exactly what is the situation between the lab and X-ray technicians bargaining unit on the one hand and the government's Treasury Board on the other? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. NR. ROUSSEAU: I know the details of the two issues but I do not 9420

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8,1978 Tape No. 4111 AH-2 HR. ROUSSEAU: · think it is in the best interest to make them public. Tnere is a difference between what a person receives when they are on stand-by or call-back·- how much they get for that~ For example .they may not be at -work especially in the smaller cottage hospitals-around the Province which have four or less people on staff they get so much per year and the larger hospitals they get so much per shift, in the ones five-and over.

There is some question about how much this should be , whether they should all be the same or not, that is one cause without being detailed. The other one is the question of service credits, steps in the progression of what salaries they sheuld have and the reason why_, I do not want to be that-specific in it obviously as I mentioned yesterday in reply to a _question from the bon. member for Terr~·Nova GMr.Lush), yesterday or Tuesday, I forget which it was, that we are in contact with the both parties, we anticipate now that we will be talking to the union possibly sometime today or tomorrow.

I have met with the negotiating officer for unit, Mr. Jim Ryan last week and my deputy also has met with Mr. Locking the general manager. We have been talking to Treasury Board trying to find some resolve obviously because the two isst,res are t!Ult far apart and the union dec1a~d strike action was necessary.

There are some strong feelings on both sides but what we are attempting to do now in our mediation process-the Department of Labour is to find some common ground where we can find some compromise between Treasury Board and the Hospital Association-on the one side and the union on the other in order to resolve the dispute. We anticipate possibly sometime today or tomorrow we will . be talking to the union and hopefully by talking to both sides we may find that area of what we h!Jpe will be common compromise, that will bring about a resolution to the dispute. i-IR.W.ROWE: One final supplementary, Sir. :!R.

SPEAKER: ~!R.W.ROWE: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. Sir, I disagree with the minister, I am not asking the minister to negotiate in public or in,this House naturally and he should not do that but what I am asking for is a small amount of detail on what 9421.

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8,1978 Tape No. 4111 AH-a HR.W.ROWE: the present positions of both parties are so that the public, I included will know what the relative positions of the party are and also be in a position to judge as to who is being reasonable or unreasonable in this particular case.

The may not have, I understand this, he is involved·in hundreds of various negotiations in the run of a year, the minister may not have the details of it\ if he does have the details of it in his mind now would he please tell us· what the present positions are and not what the bargaining or the negotiations .might be in the next day or so.but the present positions of each of the parties. If he does not have it will he undertake to get himself briefed on the matter and give the House some information on it tomorrow?

I for one would like to know what the present positions of what the three parties really are on this matter? 9422

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4112 PK ~. 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpowe~. MR. ROUSSEAU: I certainly will. There is obviously, you know, a dollar difference bet1'1een them which I know, But the reason I do not w~nt to give these specjfic details now is we would rather have this proposed meeting that I am suggesting will take place which is just a matter of the discussions we have a follow through after meetings with Treasury Board, which is the Department of Labour's function. Mr.

Blanchard may anticipate some time today. or tomorrow a meeting and I would want to see what, if any, reaction the union would have to any suggestions that might be made by the mediator as a result of his meeting with Treasury Board; If that ·occurs today,! will tomorrow, if it does not occur until tomorrow,! Will on Monday give the details as best I can. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the 'member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman for Terra Nova. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, have got a ·couple of questions for the Minister of Justice, Sir, in connection with that slanderous and libelous statement that was suppose to be made by the Premier of this Province last night on NBC Television at 6:30 that had to be cancelled. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!·· believe that in asking the question these statements of opinion which are of an argumentative nature are better left out of the question. There may well be a time in which these-matters could be debated, but I think they should be left out of the question. MR: NEARY: Hell, Mr.

Speaker, is it correct, could I ask the minister, if it is correct that·the programme had to be cancelled because of four cases, incidents of slander and libel, smear tactics and character assassination in this statement? Is that why it had to be cancelled? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr, Speaker, .that question certainly would be more properly addressed to the hon. the Premier. MR. NOLAN: Did a lawyer in the Minister of the Crown's office advise. him? 9423

• • • • • • • •• • • • •• June 8, 1978 Tape 4112 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Justice. · MR. HICKMAN: In any event; Mr. Speaker, why the Newfoundland Broadcasting Corporation,bearing in mind their responsibilities - under the Canadian Broadcast regulations would, if that is correct, as the hen. gentleman said is correct, would refuse to carry a statement from the hen. the Premier, I would suggest, is a matter between the Newfoundland Broadcasting Corporation and the Premier and the CRTC. . MR; w; .ROWE: Government lawyers involved .

MR; HICJ<til.AN: Certainly· I would not be in a position nor should I comment on why the Premier was not allowed to make factual statements to the Province. ·soME.HON; MEMBERS: Oh, oh! . . MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker . PK ~ 2 MR; SPEAKER: MR; NEARY: A supplementary, the hen. the member for LaPoile •.

Would the hen. minister, Sir, as Minister of Justice who gives legal advice to the ministers and to the Premier and to the Cro~n, would the minister indicate whether he or any of the solicitors in his department looked .over the statement and advised the Premier against it in indicating that it was slanderous and libelous? .MR; SPEAKER: The hen . the Minister of Justice. MR; HICKMAN:. Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR; NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to him. MR; SPEAKER: A supplementary • MR; .

NEARY: Would the Minister of Justice, Sir, who gives advice to the Crown, legal advice, and the Minister of Finance, would the minister indicate who was paying for this political telecast? ~/as it being paid for by the taxpayers of this Province out of the Public Treasury or was it being paid for by the Tory Party? MR; . SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, that would appear to be quite'a hypothetical question, in view of the fact, that this House has been ·advised by the hen. the member for LaPoile (.Mr. Neary) that the broadcast is not going to take place.

And I would assume that the 9424 : < •

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Mr. Hickman: MR. NOLAN: MR. WHITE: MR: NOLAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: Tape 4112 PK - 3 answer to that question - He booked the time. He could be held libel for it. Who bqoked the time? You have to pay for it, Is there a question?

What I would suggest is that the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr, Neary) if the rules could be weighed.would.direct his question through his colleagues opposite, becau·se they obviously know a 11 of the answers, and if they know a 11 of the answers· I cannot see any conceivable reason why the time of the House should be 1~asted ·with this line of questioning •. have .given the House a 11 I know • What else can I do? ·soME HON: MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: . MR. SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker . A supplementary.

Would the minister indicate to the House, Sir, 1~ho booked the time, whether it was the government's public relations people or the people in the Premier's office or in the Minister of Justice's office or in the Minister of Finance's office? Or was 1t officials of the Tory Party? Who booked the time? · What arrangement was made to pay for - there was a contract,I understand, and the contract,as my hon. \riend pointed out~the government could be held to the contract • But was it being paid for by the Tory Party if it had gon~ on? What arrangement had been made for payment from the Minister's,chest? MR.

HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR: NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it was - Sir, it .was onl.Y because of the legal advice that was given that it did not go on. The Premier could. have very easily today found himself in an embarrassing position of having a half a dozen or more libel suits slapped on fiim • ·soME.HON; MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 9425

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4113 NH - 1 ~!R. NEARY: The Premier told us some time ago he I> as going to take libel action against Xr. Davidson. He has not done it yet. He was going to do it immediately and up to last night i.t had not been done. 'Now the hon.· Minister of Justice looks at me. It has not been done to this day . Ten days ago it ·was urgent. ~!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I am going to ask the hon. gentleman to proceed to a question. MR. NEARY: Well if the minister will answer that, Sir, I have ·one more supplementary and then that will end it • MR.

HIC~1AN: Why not ask me the other one now before I get up. MR. NEARY: Hell I 1Jill ask the hon. gentleman, Sir - No, l>ell I have to get the answer to that question first before I can ask the next question. MR. SPEAKER: ~. HICK!1AN: The hon. Minister of Justice. I, as I said, have advised the House of all the knowledge that I am privy to. But there are t~~ parts to the question put by the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) that I can ans1.;er with absolute. certainty.

Number one, the Minister of Justice and/or officials in the Department.of Justice, did not book, pay for, ti~e for the hen. the Pre~ier on any station, television or otherwise, in this Province. Secondly, the sa~e answer applies with respect to the Department of Finance. · The other comments ~ere more in the line of factual information allegedly on the part of the hen. ~ember for LaPoile (Hr. Neary), and I certainly cannot ans1.;er these and I guess it 1Jill have to rest until the hen. the - ~ffi. NEA.~Y: A supplementary question • MR. SPEAKER: :·!R. N-EARY : A final supplementary. ~1r.

Speaker, would the minister tell the House, Sir, if the government has noH hammered out a new policy,· Sir, no1.; adopted 9426

• • • • •• • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4113 NM - 2 ~fR. NEARY: a new policy that the head of the administration, the Premier, can take to the airwaves in paid political telecasts that will be paid for out of the public treasury? Is this the ne~~ policy of the ·administration? ~. HICK!-1AN: No, Mr.

Speaker, I can say 1·~ithout consulting with my colleagues on this side of the House; I can say that there is no policy on the part of this administration, which would in any way allow or make it possible for the hen. the Premier to make a paid political broadcast, or any other member, and it being paid for by public funds. If it is a paid pofitical broadcast· it 1rlll be paid for by the Progressive Conservative Party of Ne1vfoundland. On the other hand, ·Hr.

Speaker, one of the onerous responsibilities of the Premier of any province in order to meet the insatiable and understandable demands of. the people of Ne1vfoundland to have information as to their 1.relfare and the conduct of the governrnent'made known to them- HR. NEARY: ~-fR, HICKMAN: I know about that. - is the responsibility of the han. the Prenier and ~~hen he discharges that responsibility within the course - :m. .NEARY: lfuy do they not do it here in the House? !1R. HIOO!AN: - in his employment, !-ffi. NEARY: lfuy was it cancelled then? !!F .• HICKMA!'l: Mr.

Speaker, you knm~ as I say, if the hen. gentleman lvould give notice of a motion to amend the rules so that he then can ask his colleagues :hese questions on the other side because obviously they are privy to.- :rn.. m:P.RY: r:R.. HICKHAi'l: .not a1~are of. :1R. llEARY: politics . Do not be hedging, boy. Do not be hedging. - they are privy to informaticn that I am It is a good thing you are getting out of 9427

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4113 tiM - 3 But the tenor of the question seems to be, that t~e hon. the Premier of this Province, has some very factual information that he wanted to make known to the people of this Province and that for· some strange reason -· }!R. }.."'EARY : }IR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible) • Order, please! Order, please! MR. HICKXAN: - for some strange reason, Hr. Speaker, this is the tenor of the questioning I get for some reason. I suspect that the - unprecedented in the broadcasting and television history of this Province, he has been precluded from so doing • !1R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, he should be ashamed - ashamed to sit where you are • Order, please! Order, please! I must point out to hon. gentlemen that the question period becomes almost impossible to conduct sensibly if there are such interruptions from both or either sice. HR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, have I answered this question as well as I can and dispite the interruptions because I am sure Your Honour would like me to repeat the concern that I am sure is in the breasts of every Newfoundlander, that their Premier wanted to bring facts to them last night and apparently was precluded from so doing.

But as this Legislature does not have any jurisdiction over the Canadian Broadcasting regulations then I guess that is a matter for another forum. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated that that would be the last supplementary and there are a number of hen. members, I can only infer that they Hish to ask questions on different subject!'<. It does not preclude hen. members from coming back to this. I had indicated I would recognize the hen. member for Terra Nova next, follmving him the hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde • 9428

• • • • • • • ~- • • • June 8, 1978 Tape Nc. 4113 NH - 4 XR.. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Hanpower. Today on the news media an official made some serious allegations against the government.. The official had. said that. the government '~as guilty of unfair labour practices and that the labour relations with the government '~as in a state of chaos • 9429

• • • • • •• • • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4114 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: The member was referring particularly to the nego~iations.as they relate to the hospital support workers, and I think his remarks were brought about by an incident at Burin in the hospital there with the strike situation there, and he finished by saying that the government had ~roken off negotiations with this group. So I wonder if the minister can comment on this - why negotiations were broken off with the hospital support workers? MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. ~he ~inister of Labour Mr.

Speaker, I did not hear the news broadcast, obviou~ly. I am - you know, surprised, I have been meeting with the Fede~ation of Labour and with NAPE and with CUPE and everybody else for the past two Fridays, which is the only uninterrupted time you appear to have for long, detailed discussions.

Obviously, every labour union has a problem when it comes to the government, and management too, for that ma~ter, in certain instances, but I would be very surprised if government or the hospital association broke off talks, because our job in the Department of Labour would be t~ make ·sure that the talks continue, because ·no strike or no dispute is going to be settled as long as both sides are not talking.

I doubt very much - it may take a little while with one or the other sides to get them back to the table to discuss meaningfully again to bring about a conclusion, but, you know, if there were a break off in talks which happens, by the way from both sides at· any time, the conciliation officer is then going to work on both sides to try t9 get them back to the table. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. 9430

• • • • • • • • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4114 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Sir, in view of the fact that the minister has telexed the federal Minister of Fisheries protesting the issuing of six shrimp licences to Mainland firms in beds off the coast of Labrador and Northeastern Newfoundland, would the minister indicate to the House, Sir, what initiative he has taken himself to insure that all the shrimp licences be issued to Labrador and Newfoundland firms before the actual ~ecision was made? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries • MR.

W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I indicated to the House yesterday that we did support the proposal put forward by Fishery Products Limited to establish a shrimp processing plant in St. Anthony which would more than likely have taken care of at least four, maybe five such licences. About the most we could have done woul~ be to have made representation supporting their request. At that time they were the only Newfoundland company showing any interest in developing the processing capability required to handle the shrimp recently discovered off the East coast of Labrador.

That action has been taken and as I said in the telegram yesterda¥ 1 it is regrettable that Ottawa saw fitto ignore the request of Fishery Products for licences; consequently, the plant. that was planned will not be going in there this year. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate whether he has had any correspondence or telephone conversations with the federal Minister of Fisheries, 943~

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4114 EC - 3 MR. F •. ROI~E: Romeo LeBlanc, regarding the issuing of shrimp licences in the last say, in the last half year - six months or so? MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, we have made numerous representations to Ottawa \lith respect to licences - I am not sure exactly how many letters or telegrams or telephone calls - but certainly I will find out and I will be very happy to table correspondence we have had with Ottawa, or in fact, for that matter, anybody else, concerning the shrimp stocks off .Labrador and the issuance of licences to harve~t that stock. MR. F. ROWE: .

MR .. SPEAKER: MR. F. RO"E: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary~ Final? Mr .. Speaker, am I to understand that the minister has had correspondence and sent telexes to the federal Minister of Fisheries regarding the issuing of shrimp licences in this particular instance which he referred to yesterday in his telegram?' And would the minister, since he was given notice of this yesterday, be prepared to table that correspondence and any telexes in the House today, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. CARTER: The non. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I ~m not prepared to table that correspondence today.

First of all, our deputy minister is on holidays. I do not have time to get the correspondence out, but he will have to take my word for it - MR. F. ROWE: No. MR. W. CARTER: - that we have supported every way possible the application of Fishery Products Limited for shrimp licences to operate a fish processing plant in St. Anthony to process the shrimp that is out there to be caught and should be caught by Newfoundlanders . 9432

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June a. 1978 Tape 4114 EC.- 4 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I ~ish to give notice, Sir, that I wish to debat~ this under. Standing Order No. 31 (g). MR. McNEIL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville followed ·by the hon. themember for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. McNEIL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance • During the official opening of the Bay St. George Community College on April 26th th~ minister indicated that he would.look at the proposal of Stephenville Development to renovate building No. 360 for the college.

Has the minister had the opportunity to view the proposal, and if so, will he support the proposal put forward by Stephenville Development? 9433

• • • • • • • ••• • • •• • June 8, 1978 Tape 4115 PK - 1 Mr. Hickman: What the hon. gentleman says is required but there is some elaboration required as you will recall. Mr. Frederick Stagg, ~1ho is a very strong conmiunity leader in Stephenville and, as I know the hon. gentleman will agree is doing an excellent.job as Chairman of the Soard of Governors of the Bay St. George Community College.

In his address to the very large and enthusastic audience in Stephenville· on the night of the official opening he indicated that there is another· building in the Harmon· complex which he feels could be converted for use by the Bay St. George Community. College and if converted for the use intended wou 1 d save the Government of Newfoundland money. · And I stated then categorically that if the Board of Governors of the Community College of Bay St. George through their .strong Chairman, Mr.

Frederick Stagg would make his submission to me and that submission following examination by the ~fficials in the Department of Finance prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was indeed funds to be saved by the Prov1nce then he would have a most enthusastic supporter for that concept in NeWfoundland. Mr. Stagg and his Board have now prepared and submitted·a very detailed proposal to me designed to meet that challenge.

A~d in accordance with my undertaking to the Board and "' to the Chairman of the Board, and indeed to the multitude gathered there that evening that proposal is now being studied very assiduously and very carefully by the accountants and the economists in the Department of Finance. And I certainly hope that at the end of their study of that proposal that they ·will arrive at the conclusion made by Mr. Stagg when he made that very fine address at the official opening of the Bay St. George Community College which is another,by the way, gem in the Crown of the Progressive Conservative Administration. MR. MCNEIL: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary , the original questioner. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I .am very interested in the remarks of the hon. minister. Is the minister saying that the only proposal that has been put forward for this development has been the proposal· put forward by the Trustees. the Board Trustees. Because from my 9434

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4115 PK - 2 Mr. MCNEIL: understanding that proposal for this development has been submitted to the government well over a year, and the government has been sitting on it. Is this the first time that that proposal has been put forward? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: I can only say it is the first time that that proposal came to the government or to me to my knowledge. Now there may have been a proposal to the hon. Minister of Public ~lorks and Services, by the hon. Minister of Education, or some other hon. minister I do not know.

But the proposal that was put to me when I was in Stephenville about six weeks ago was,by Mr. Stagg, tJ:lat he advanced ·the opinion that if this building MR. MCNEIL: That proposal was done over a year and a half ago. MR. HICK1'1AN: -that if this building, what is the number of it? I have forgotten the number of it now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 360.

MR; HICKMAN: If Building No. 360. was renovated along the lines suggested by the college for use by. the. college ·that it would save the Government of Newfoundland money, and I said - which left me with the distinct understanding that whatever submissions that come into government before dealt with the physical changes and the accommodation that this would provide for instruction and for the . work of the college.

The challenge that was thrown out to . me in my capacity as Minister of Finance in the hope that I too would be very supportive of the idea on the grounds that money would be saved. ·So I said if the - SOME.HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR: HICKMAN: I am being harassed, and I apologize to the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. McNeil) for the behaviour· of his colleagues to the right of Mr. Speaker . MR. MCNEIL: That is okay. MR; HICKMAN: Because obviously he and I are the only two that have any real interest in this monumental task. AN HON .. MEMBER: Carry on! 9435 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 MR. HICKMAN: the question . AN HON. MEMBER: about the Minister .of - MR. HICKMAN: Tape 4115 PK - 3 Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may finish answering ~Jhat about the Minister .of Education? What The challenge that was put to me was that they could prove that we would save money, and it is along these lines that the submission to me was made by Mr. Frederick Stagg on behalf of his Board. MR. MCNEIL: start this Summer? MR. HICKMAN: SOME HQN; MEMBERS: Can we take it then that construction will You can take it from me - Oh, oh! 9436

• • • • • • •• •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4116 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NOLAN: You are not in court just to place final - MR .. HICKMAN: The· hon. gentleman - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER: suppose we wi 11 start somewhere (inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, you know, life is not worth living if one is going to be harassed like I am being harassed right now particularly from hon. members on this side of the House. May I conclude my answer, Mr.

Speaker, by saying and repeating that the appropriate officials in the Department of Finance are very assiduously studying the proposal of Mr. Stagg . MR. PECKFORD: No, no, no. That is not right. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear,.hear~ MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Justice so enj!)yS answering questions let him answer this one, Mr. Speaker. Let him give as 1 ong an answer as he wants but factual. Mr. Speaker, we have been given to understand for a number of years now that this administration wo.uld very much like to have Mr. John C.

Doyle back . . in the Province to face fraud charges in connection with the operation of the Labrador Linerboard Mill. It is my understanding that notwithstanding the government's stated ·eagerness to have him back in the Pro vi nee it is my understanding that up until a month ago this Province, the government of this Province, had not made any request to Ottawa to have Mr. Doyle extradited to face charges here. Is that correct? MR. HICKMAN: I can tell the House that the hon. gentleman's understanding is incorrect . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the minister·could elaborate a little more because one of his colleagues .in Cabinet, namely the Minister of Transportation has given the contrary impression to the press a month or so ago. And if that is not correct would the minister indicate when that request was made and what the result of the request has been . 9437

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: ~. SIMt10NS: MR. HICKMAN: I was asked by Tape 4116 IB-2 The hon. minister. That was a question by the way. Since my name has been menti"oned on this thing. MR. SIMMONS: I mentioned Doyle's. Can he answer the question too? MR. HICKMAN: - the press if it was true that the only thing that was necessary to bring Mr. Doyle_ back to Newfoundland was that the Government of Newfoundland make the necessary request to Ottawa. said at that time that I was not aware that this was the case. would check it out with officials in the Department of Justice .

Certainly if the only thing that was keeping Mr. Doyle from returning to Newfoundland was an official invitation from_ this Province I would bi only too happy to extend such an invitation on behalf of the people. That is exactly the answer that I gave at that time and that is the answer as I ·understand it. If he wants to come home we would be delighted to see him. We would put him up with free board and lodging indefinitely. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I understood the Minister of Justice intended to ans~1er the question. He does not want to answer the question? See what I mean. MR.

HICKMAN: Motion 10 . Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance, to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Corporation Act, 1973", carried. (Bill No. 60) j On motion bill no. 60 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 11. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services, to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Qualified Social Workers", carried. (Bill No. 61) On motion bill no. 61 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow . 9438

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4116 lB-3 MR. HICKMAN: Motion 12. Motion, the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, to introduce a bill, "An Act To Facilitate Metric Conversion", carried. (Bill No. 62) On motion bill no. 62 read a first time, ordered read a second time ·on tomorro~1 . MR. HICKMAN: Motion 13. Motion, the hon. Mi.nister of Forestry And Agriculture, to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection Of Plants And The Prevention Of The Spread Of Pests And Diseases Destructive To Vegetation';_ carried • {-Bill No. 55) On motion Bill No. 55 read a fi~st time, ordered. read a second time on tomorrow •. 9439

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1~78 Tape no. 4117 Page 1 - ms Motion, the hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection Of Animals," c.1rried. (Bill No. 63). On motion; Bill No.· 63 read a f~rst time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HR. HICK? !AN: !1otion 15 • ~!otion, the hon. the President of the ·Treasury Board to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The l~ar Service (Pensions) Act, 1975," (Bill no. 59). On motion, B_ill No. 59 read a first time, Ordered read a second time on tomorrow • XR. HICKHAN: Order 1. MR.

SPEAKER: Order 1, the adjourned debate on the sub-amendment to the Address in. Reply • The hon. member for Baie Verte - lfuite Bay. ~IR. RIDEOUT: ~~. Speaker, it has been two or three weeks ago, I believe, since we were on this particular order, the time we had the Thursday morning massacre. So it has been a long time since we had the sub-amendment. I am not even sure what it says now. MR. SU~lONS: Let the record show that it was the Premier <Jho got massacred • ~~-. RIDEOUT: I remember that I ~ade a few brief introductory remarks that day, ~~.

Speaker, so I want to get into ·the meat of the subject this afternoon. If I remember correctly we put down a sub-amendment at that time, Sir, detailing some of the areas where we thought the government had fallen such as; record· unemployment, the cost of electricity, the cost o·f living, fishery policy, development of the Lo1~er Churchill, the Nordsea proposal, the re-opening of the Linerboard mill at Stephenville, occupational health and safety legislation and covering full disclosure of all election _expenses and donations. I believe I dealt with one or two of those in the little 9440 :

• • ·- • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape no. 4117 Page 2 - ms ~fr. Rideout. while I t~as speaking the other day, ·but there are some of them that I do want to have a few more words to say on, Hr. Speaker, before I clue up my remarks. Before I do that though there are a few, since we are speaking in the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, there are a few district problems that I want to bring to the attention of the Tiouse. It seems, Mr.

Speaker, that you can do this year after year and it is customary, I understand, in the Address in Reply for members to make what is commonly referred to as a district speech when you bring the problems of your district before the House of Assembly, air them so that the government, even though they are aware of them, can become aware once again, and will hopefully do something about them • l'r.

Speaker, it would give·me .great pleasure if I could stand here today and say that all the problems of my district t~at I referred to in the Address in Reply last year or even half of them or even a quarter of them _th~t some solution had been sought to them, some attention had been paid to them by the government of this Province. But, Mr.

Speaker, for the third year in a row speaking in the Address in Reply debate,, I have no choice but to say that there has been no effort whatsoever on.the part of this government to deal with the problems that I have outlined three years successively now, three years in succession, faced by the people in the district of Baie Verte - ~!bite Bay. If I could stand here and say that the government had made some progress, then I would be glad to do that. I would be glad, Sir, to give credit where credit is due.

But as I said last year anq I said the year before and I will say again this year, it seems to me that decisions made by this government are in the main based on political expediency and not on sharing the wealth philosophy that they should prevail when it comes to decision making in this Province. I have outlined year after year community by community, right from Roddic~'.ton in the North to LaScie in the South, I have 9441

• • • • • • • •• •• • • • June 8, 1978 Tape,no. 4117 Page 3. - ms }!r. F.ideout. outlined· the problems facing that district three years in a row here under .this particular motion, the Address in Reply. ~~d I have seen no progress, Mr. Speaker, whatsoever, absolutely none. I see the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing walking down. I am not aware of any progress in the field of the development of municipal services although I .have talked about-it for three years in a row in this particular debate.

I remember saying, t~hen I came into this House first, that certain consulting engineering firms in this Province ought to be hauled over the coals by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. And, of course, the minister agreed with me. HR. J. CARTER: ~'P.. RIDEOUT : see any evidence of it. Y:P .• J. CAP.TEP.: ~'R. RIDEOUT: one of them? They Some of them are • Well maybe they are, but we do not In the courts. In the courts, that is good .. Is Gorman Butler 9442

I • • • • • • •• • • • • JW1e a. 1978 Tape No, 4118 c;w- 1 !·JR. RIDEOUT: o~gilt to be if they ·are not. They are are they? Good, The Minister agreed with me then and apparently ne still agrees because he has taken some concrete action in that dirrection and I say bravo for the Hinister. The last time I mentioned it, Mr. Speaker, the member from }!ou."lt Pearl (Mr, Windsor) viciously jumped to his feet and ran do1-m my throat for having such audacity as to even question the consulting eng~neers, so we know now who the defender of the consulting engineers is.

I am not lumping them all into one basket .iust ·as you would not lUmp teachers into one basket or lump lawyers into one basket, Those who have done t¥rong, Hr, Speaker, deserve to be pWlished and there are commWlities in my district, Hr. Speaker, that ought to have water flowing through pipes years and years ago, where barrels and barrels of money have been spent and there has yet to be a drop of water go through that system.

The Hinister is fully aware of the problem in Coachman's Cove for example, where almost a half a million dollars, Xr, Speaker, has been ;>ut in the ground and you itave yet to get one glass of water run through those pipes, It is not the fault of the people of Coachman 1 s Cove !1r, Speaker, it is certainly not their · fault, Gorman and Butler was the consulting engineer. They are the ones who are suffering, those people and the province because the province is not getting any return yet on toe money that they have invested in Coachman's Cove and obviously cannot expect any Wltil the system is working. Mr.

Speaker, Gorman and Butler "'ere the consulting engineers, Gorman and Butler ~ere the professional people, they ought to have known whether the system could work or whether it could not, in fact, they ought to be responsible,. I 1vould say to the l-iinister, to be forced in there when a half a million dollars is spent to make sure that that system works. Pardon? AN .RON, HEMBER: We payed enough for it • MR. RIDEOUT: We payed enough for it, that is right. 9443

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4118 cw - 2 }:R. RIDEOUT: They get something like twenty percent off the top, I understand, or something close to that. AN HON. l1E..'1BER: HR. RIDEOUT: Seven percent to twenty five percent. There you are, I guess they are close to the top. The other thing, l1r. Speaker, about the 1-1hole matter of communities t~ho have gotten in trouble by the actions of consulting engineers'in this province. The other, pardon, AN RON. }!EMBER: (inaudible) l1R. RIDEOUT: Oh yes, there is half a dozen I know but I will just keep to those. The other thing is Mr.

Speaker is where the - I do not know if it is on the advise of the professional staff the engineering staff of the Department of Hunicipal Affairs or not but where they continue to pour money into a system when they know that there is no chance of that system working.

Again I will use the ,example of Coachman's Cove; they went into Coachman's Cove tdth the advise of Gorman and Butler and built a dam across a brook that runs right along by the side of the road, that I would suzgest to the Minister is probably contaminated anyway, but one thing that I do know for sure that there is not enough water backs up behing that dam in July and August and September to supply the community of Coachman 1 s Cove and any fool can go dot~ there in the middle of summer and see that, Mr. Speaker.

I know it, I drive out there alnost every other day, it is close by where I live • People from Coachman's Cove know it and the department knows it but tvhat did they do last Stmllller, they spent another $50,000. dollars on · the same system in by the dam trying to get the system working in­ stead of getting somebody to go in there that have some sort of click in their head and rearranging or finding a new source. There are dozens of new sources available. It is ,going to take some money to them but Hr. Speaker, as I said, there is a half million dollars in 9444

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4118 cw - 3 ~IR. RIDEOUT: the ground now so you may as ~~ell invest another few thousand dollars to get the system ~~orking. If you are going to do that Hr. Spe{lker, for'good:less sake have the good sense . . to mak~ ·sure that the system is going to work when you are finished with it, not like the.$50,000. that was spent there last S\llliller, I , would say to the :-linister another $50,000. wasted on top of the $310,000. that already 1~ent down the drain or that is. down the drain yet, hopefully it can be selvaged, hopefully something can be done with it.

So it should be a priority, Ur. Speaker, in the 1-!inisters department to en~age some reptible engineering firms, some reptible consulting firms and send them down to those places who have just as much right to expe~t a good water and sewer system as does any other community in the province, but who also need the professional expertees if it going to be done properly. So I do hope. that the Minister, this is not being critical of the Minister, but I hope that he will take that advise and do it • 9445

• June S, 1978 Tape ~:o. 411~ RT-1 !lR. RIDEOUT: • :tr. Speaker, the same can be said of dozens of other communities. lve have to look at some •:!ifferent method of provicling an adequate Hater system in a lot of our smaller communities than those million c:lollar Cadillac systems. I think the Hinister would do well if he 1JOuld look at • alternatives. ~'.aybe an artesian well system properly hooked up ~ight be the ans1ver. l1aybe some method of running pipes on top of the ground with the proper insulation on them would be the answer.

But, something has .to be done where we can provide an adequate 1Jater system to our • s~aller communities but at the same time not having it cost $1,000,000 • or $1,500,000 because, l·<.r. Speaker, once it is in. there· those communities cannot even generate from their Olm resources enour,h revenue to maintain the system let alone pay off the capital debt. So, 1Je have to come to • grips 1dth the problem, Hr. Speaker, and I 1·10uld hope that the !"inister does something about it and <'.oes soll'.ething tangible so that we can see it. l1r.

Speaker, in my remarks a couple of 1Jeeks ago 1 made reference to the economic situation facing the communities in • the n·orthem portion of my riding, particularly Roddickton area.

At that time I told the House· that the Town Council of Roddickton had been so concerned about the economic situation of that town, ~rought about by the closedo1m of Labrador Linerboard - !'eople might think that funny but •• • there ~ras a lot more than the Stephenville and Goose :!layr~appy Valley area hit by the closedmm of Labrador Linerboard and Roddickton happened to be one of the hardest hit on the ~orthem Peninsula because the Canada Tiay Lumber Company IJhich has a sawlog operation now finds that it cannot • continue to operate unless it has some market to sell its pulpwood and the 'problem that exists is the transportation cost from ?.oddickton to Comer Brook. we have made effort after effort - and I am sorry the :!inister of Forestry is not in his seat today but he lvas here ~Jhen I • mentioned it before, I believe - \ve have made continuous efforts to try to convince the Government that they would be money in if they would come up with some sort of transportation subsidy to transport wood up : • 9446 •

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Taoe No. 411'? ... RT-2 :·ffi. !U!)EQUT: the ~orthern Peninsula to the paper mill in Corner Brook. ~ow, ~1e are not talking very much money, }~r. Speaker. lve know for a fact that Bo~~aters Hould be quite prepared to take 30,000 cords of wood off the Northern Peninsula. l~e kn01~ that.

T.~ey have told us; guaranteed us that they would be delighted to take it. hTc know that there is no problem l~ith the private operators in cutting it but we also know that with the price per cord that Bowaters will offer and of course they will not offer anymore further down the Northern Peninsula than they will offer up arotmd Corner Brook - Th~y are going to pay the same price for their Hood, try to get it as cheap as they can, that is understandable - But the price per coi:d that they .ar~ offering it is not economically feasible to transport that wood from Roddickton to Corner Brook, and that is the Hhole problem. !\'e have proposed that the C~vernment initiate some sort of transportation subsidy so thAt it will be feasible to ·do it but you may be talking about tl·renty-five or fifty cents a cord, I believe.· Spread over 3!'1, !100 cords, as you l<.nO\·!, Sir, it is not a great deal of money but it l~ould mean that the 2,500 people living in Roddickton l~ould have a livelihood or a r.>.eans of making a living for themselves and their families.

It ~1ould mean the same thing for Hain 3rook which is not in my riding but in the district of my colleague, the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (!·!r. Roberts) . It Hould mean that people in ConchP. ,Englee, Boy<:\ Arm, all those people who are so dependent on the Forestry, ~!r. Speaker, "'ould have a chance to survive. ~ey would not be dependent on the Government as many of them are nat• and many more of them Hill be, Mr.

Speaker, whe!". their unenqiloyment insurance rtms out in a fel~ months time because there is no fishery whatsoever worth talking about in Roddickton, never was, anrl I rlo not· know if there ever tdll be. Roddick ton is too far in the bay, it is too far to get. out for fishermen to make it commercially viable. So, ;'..oddicktort is totally on the l~oods operations, Hr. Speaker, and unless so~ething is done, unless the r.overnment takes some action 9447

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 Tape ilo. 4119 RT-3 :-m. !UDE01.1T: to alleviate the situation c!olm there you are going to have an economically dead tolm on your hands, and the C'.overnment ought to knolJ that for the sake of $15,000 the transportation subsidy would be, I think the Government would be in money if they would give some thought to instituting that type of policy. He have not heard any response from the l·!inister of Fores,try and Agriculture on it yet, yet. I believe it was in January that '"e first made the presentation to him, So, Hr. Speaker, time is running out . 9448

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 3, 1978 Tape 4120 GH-1 l-!R.

RIDEOUT: If Labrador Linerboard gets back .an therails, well, then the subsidization program could be done away with again, but in the meantime, Sir, in the interim, the livelihood.of 2,500 people in Roddickton that I know of, and I cannot speak for the other communities around like Main Brook and Conche because I am not so familiar with them - they are not in my disttict - but the livelihood of that particular c~mmunity and a half dozen others around is at stake, Sir, and the government so far is doing nothing to assist them even though the community made such reasonable proposals - an excellent brief they presented to the ::-,inister when he was d·own there to listen to it a-nd nothing has happened since.

Mr. Speaker, in the area of fisheries I am disappointed in the Minister of.Fisheries in some ways, especially as far as the fisheries go in Englee. You would think, llr. Speaker, that Englee did not exist as far as ·this _!linister of Fisheries is concerned. Now, he goes to La Scie and I am delighted with that - a great fishing community it is and will continue to be, but that .is one ~nd of it.

The other end of it a similar situation exists and that is in Englee, and I do not know if the Minister of Fisheries has ever been in ~nglee since he used to be the Liberal member for the old White Bay seat - I do not suppose he has; but he has come close to it, Mr. Speaker, h~ has come as far as ilum Point, but you got to drive over 52 miles of dirt road to get from Plum Point to Englee . A;.! HON. :·!E:·InER: MR. RIDEOUT: And Englee - Whose district is Plum.Point? Plum Point is in the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture's district, I believe, or pretty close to the strip there between himself and Roberts.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, Englee is one of the nost thriving fishing communities along the northeast coast but it needs some help 9449 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June S, 1978 Tape 4120 GH-2 :IR. RIDEOUT: it needs some assistance. The com?any that operates the"fish plant down there have done a marvellous job in many cases, but, Mr. Speaker, the fish plant that is in Englee, I have not go~ a clue ~ow old it .is b~~ it must be at least forty years old, it is a very old, run-down operation, and the niracle of it all is that the company - the Lake Group - have been able to keep it going.

That is the real miracle of it a~l, and with Englee then one of the most striving fishing communities on the northeast coast I simply cannot I understand why the Minister of Fisheries, having gone everywhere around the Province to talk to the fishermen and to seek their advice and th6se great numbers of meetings last year and the year before, how the Minister of Fisheries could overlook Englee. I just do not understand it. I asked him to come to Englee. I asked him here in this House how come he has not gone to Englee.

I do not know if he has got anything against the community - I do not kno~~ ~rhat the problem is, but I do know that since he has been ~inister of Fisheries he has yet to go in there - ~R. W. CARTER: There are at least a half dozen other places I have not been to in the Province. l1R. RIDE OUT.: Well, are they as striving and important a fishi~g co~munity as - HR. H. CARTE:t: ~:o. i-!R. RIDEOUT: Well, how come the Minister has not been there? Because of what?

I mean.the Minister went on a great, a great campaign,I suppose you could call it, around the PTovince last year and the year before visiting Gll the mRjor fishing centres, and rightly so, I think he did the right thing but the Minister should visit them all. Certainly he has had time. now. He has been Minister of Fisheries for three years . 9450

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 A~l HOl·l. ~!El1BER: ilR. RIDEOUT: Tape 4120 CH-3 You would need three twin brothers • You would not need three - not to pick out the ~ajor centr•s, Mr. S~eaker, like Twillingate and La Scie and St. Anthony and, you know, all those places around where you have the major fishing centres of the Pr~vince and major processing centres in the Province. The Minister would not need three twin brothers to go around and do the likes ~f that, but I suggest to him that he should do it because.

I think the government has a· role to play in the development of the fishery in the Englee area and I am afraid that unless - if you leave it a~l; Mr. Speaker, to the initiative of the company, you know, I think we got to be in there pushing them to further develop the fishery in the Englee area and I am disappointed - totally disappointed - that the Minister has not seen fit to visit that fishing community yet where there is a couple of thousand people dependent totally on the fishery. It is the nub of the fishery along the northeast coast from St.

Anthony up and in between La Scie - one of the most important fishing centres on the northeait coast. But the Minister of Fisheries has been flirting around to hither and yon and has yet to see fit to dart in to Englee so he can see the problems 'facing the fish6ry down there. I have mentioned them in this House on numerous occasions. I have done so aBain today. I would hope that if the Minister is going to continue, .Ur . Speaker, if the Hinister is going to continue ~is trips around the Province this year I would beg him to put r.nglee on his itinerary. I would hope that he could put En3lee on his

schedule and get in there sometim~ or other before he is finished his job as Minister of Fisheries. !!r. Speaker, I do not want to belabor the subject but I want to make brief menti0n before I finish again of the road. situation 9451

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1?7~ Tape !<o. 4121 RT-1 ~IR. RI")EOUT: on the Baie Verte Peninsula. If there is anything that I have talked about enough that hon. mere!:lers should be sick of it in this House it is the problem that faces people on the Saie '!erte Peninsula t~ith rP-gard to road reconstruction and pavinr,. )lot·/, t·le are finally, I suppose, going to get some ,work done.

Oh, yes, the former ~·!inister of Transportation committed himself and then tried to back off but the present ~1inister has comr.d ttect - and the present ~lin is ter has not beeri doing any backing off, I must say that for him. He made his commitment and it appears as if he is going to live by it . '1ow, I agree with him trying to get some sort of help from Ot tat-~ a because it is a major problem.

In fact, the road-frpm Baie Verte on to Coachman's Cove and Fleur-de-Lys is the finish of Highway 410 tvhich was done under :'P.EE anyt~ay, so it does not finish at Advocate !-lines, it finishes at Fleur-de-Lys sixteen miles further dotm the road. So, it should have been done under the original t:'P.EE agreement, tvhosever oversight that was I do not know, but all I l:.."".ow, it was not done.

So, I think it is right and proper for him to seek some assistance from the Federal ('.overnment and I am very pleased to learn from the !-linister that he expects to have some sort o:f agreement signed with them in t!1e next week or so. The other thing is, !·!r. Speaker, tle have to look at the major upgrading programme of every road on the Baie Verte Peninsula. I think the sooner that the Hinister - ~nd I arn glad the !':inister is nodding his head because the sooner that is accepted by Government, the better.

Notl, nobody expects that it can be done in a two or three year period, it may be five or six year period, hut t<e have to accept the responsibility that something has to be done because it has a problem that is unique, I Hould suggest, to any other part of the Province and that is where you have - Nobody in his right mind anymore is going to even attempt, l'!r. Spea'<er, to suggest that asbestos dust is not a problem. It is a problem. It has been proven beyond any 9452

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape :<o. 4121 RT-2 ~-ffi. RIDEOUT: doubt and ,.,e have the means to control it to some extent. You mig~t never make it perfect, you might never make the mining operation p_erfect but our goal 01.1ght to be to. make it as technologically safe as-possible. That is all anybody has been saying. That is all I have been saying for the past three years and it is all I -Hill continue to say. You cannot do the impossible but '·re ought to do 'what we can do within the technological capabilities that we have. I think, if I·Te do that then people are not going to be disappointed.

But the road situation on the Ilaie Verte Peninsula has to be faced. I am hopeful that somet~ing Hill be started this year and that progress trlll be made. If we can get some sort of agreement with· the Federal Government then that ~nll be great. But, that aside, it is the Province that is responsible for roads anc the Province has to accept that responsibility. If we can get some help from the Feris, like I say, fine., but we cannot say <.re cannot do it because the Federal Government would not participate. It is not their jurisdiction anyway.

Hhether they participate, or not, the Province has to get in there and tacl~le 'the problem. llr. Speaker, I want to say _one quick word on t!"te spruce budworm situation before I sit do1m. I think it was adequately debated in this Rouse the other tiay, but there is something which has come to my attention recently that bothers me about the attitudes of the companies. I am talking basically about Bmvaters because that i3 th~ cne I know best. They operate on the Baie Verte Peninsula portion of my district. The thine that bother~ me about those companies Has brought to my at tendon a fe1-1 days ago.

He have fishermen e;oing in the ~:oods, !~r. Speaker, cutting t•renty-five or thirtv wharf sticks to repair their •.rharves and so on, going home and coming back the· neY.t tr.Orning to find that the Botvaters truck has heen around and picked up the logs and carted them off to Sandy or •:herever they chop them up into smaller pieces for pulp1.rood. How, if this is the company, · 9453 .:. :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4121 RT-3 :!F.. RIDEOUT: l·lr .• Speaker, that is so concerned about the spruce budworm infestation and if t~is is the co~any that is suggesting to the Government that. the only _answer is to. spray, then is this company looking at other alternative methods.

Bm·Taters have not harvested very much troo~. -·.=ell, they ••ere gone for ten or twelve years off the Baie Verte Peninsula, this last four or five years they have been coming back mostly through private operators but they do operate one camp on the Baie Verte r,oad themselves - If they had treated the forest rirht' on the Baie Verte Peninsula a lot of this over-mature timber would have been cut • .' rpe particular area I am talking about, for example, is 28 Ridge off Fleur-de-Lys Road 9454

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4122 IB-1 MR. RIDEOUT: which has not seen a Bowater nose except to pick those logs, I suppose, in ten or twelve years since the old camp was closed down on 28 Ridge . There have been some private operators there on Crown land but on Bowaters land Bowaters has not been there. themselves probably for the last ten or twelve years. Yet you will get a poor old fisherman who will go to the forestry officer, and I blame part of the. problem on the Department of Forestry too, Mr.

Speaker because if I go to the Department of Forestry and ask for a permit to .cut and .they ask me where I am going to cut and I tell them they should be if they know anything about their job at all, they should be able to tell me whether that is Crown land, Bowaters land or Reid land, whoever in heavens name might own the land. But anyway that is beside the point. They · will give people and have given - .I have had three cases now where they have given people a Crown permit to cut and Bowaters found out that it was on their land.

And when 100 or a couple of hundred logs had been cut along comes Bowaters with their truck after the men have gone home in twa· of the three cases and carted off the timber.· Now, Mr. Speaker, if that is the way a company that is so concerned about the spruce budworm investation is going to act then I would have second thoughts about that company because, as said to Your Honour and as I am saying to this House they have not harvested on 28 Ridge and there may be 10,000 28 Ridges around this Province as far as I know. But they have not harvested on 28 Ridge in ten or twelve years. The timber is old.

It is over matured. It is infested with the spruce budworm. And what is the company's answer to the whole problem? If a fisherman wants to go cut a few wharf sticks or cut a few logs to build a piece on his house, when he gets them cut down take them away from him. Now r·know it is their land. I am not making a legal argument. I am making a moral argument, Mr. Speaker, that if this company is concerned about the infestation of•the spruce budworm in this Province then should they not have developed and should they not.develop now some particular policy on their own timber blocks 9455

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4122 IB-2 MR. RIDEOUT: where they will allow the ordinary individual to cut and if they have no plans to cut there immediately. Why not allow the ordinary individual, give him a permit if they want to, to come in and cut a few of those logs off.

You know if a lot of people - it may not be the overall answer to the problem but I think it would be a show of good faith on the part of the companies rather than coming around almost like thieves in the night and swiping, not swiping just taking their own, but swiping the labour certainly of those particular individuals and m~rching off with it and the poor fellow goes back in the woods the next morning and finds there is not a log left that he had cut two or three days previ-ously. I do not _think it is good enough on the part of Bowaters. I do not know if Price does it or not.

If ·they do then I think they are equally as guilty . I would hope that the Minister of Forestry although he is not in his seat today - I know his officials are aware of it because I have certainly-brought it to their attention and I would hope tha·t they would take it up with those companies, Mr. Speaker, take it up with them and put it to them. If you have infested timber on your blocks, on your timber claims and that if you cannot cut it · and there are residents who want to cut it for their own use or even for sawmilling, Mr.

Speaker :maybe some residents might want to set up a sawmill operation on Bowaters block and if it is in an infested areas why cannot they be encouraged to do so rather than let the timber rot on the stump. !believe, and I can only speak as I find, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this particular company, Bowaters would rather let their timber rot on the stump, that ·is ~1hat it appears, they would rather let their timber rot on the stump than allow local residents to· cut it for their own use. And I think that is a sad state of affairs. I do not think the government should allow it to continue.

I think they ought to use their influence as a goVernment._ Maybe the government should try to get some more exchange blocks with Bowaters. They certainly need it on the Baie ·9456

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4122 IB-3 MR. RIDEOUT: Verte Peninsula because they are running out of Crown timber rights . You know Bowaters has a lot of it tied up and they are not cutting it themselves. MR. WELLS: (Inaudible} MR. RIDEOUT: Yes well unless you go get a permit from the company they take it too. You know you will go and cut your logs, if you go get a permit from them oka:y.

But if you go to the Department of Forestry and get a Crown permit and you think you are on Crown land, Forestry thinks you are on Crown land - this has happened in three cases - and they go and cut a couple of hundred logs and Bowaters carne out and take it. And they have don~ it. They have done it this Hinter in three particular cases in my district. MR. WELLS: Not a good spirit. MR. RIDEOUT: No it is not a good spirit. And another problem, Mr. Speaker, their claims are not adequately mark.

You can drfve the Fleur de Lys Road and you are told by Bowaters that going down to Fleur de Lys all the land on the right belongs to Bowaters but you do not see any signs saying Bowaters Timber Land, you are not allowed to cut. No such thing as that. AN HON. MEMBER: Has it ever been surveyed? MR. RIDEOUT: I do not know if it has ever been surveyed . 945? :

• • • • • • • ~· • • • • June 8," 1978 Tape no. 4123 Page 1 - ms ~·r. Rideout. But yet those people·will come and take the timber after you cut it. I think it is a desperate state of affairs, and I think the government should take it under advisement, Mr. Speaker, and attempt to do something about it. Now, Ur. Speaker, I think that basically brings to a close the remarks that I wanted to make in the Address in Reply on the sub-amendment that I put down. I will just close by saying that I do hope that the Minister of Justice gets his Oscar. He was making the theatrical presentation again today.

He does it very well. He did it very well during the presentation of his budget. I made some reference to it in the few remarks that I made a couple of weeks ago. And I do hope that before this session is over the Hinister of Justice gets his Oscar, because he certainly deserves it. Thank you, Hr. Speaker • SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: M-F • 1-1. CARTER: SOME HON. ~!n-ffiERS : ~IlL W. CARTER: Hear, hear! The han. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker - Hear, hear! it seems a .long time since the House opened and the Throne Speech was read.

Two of o~r distinguished members had the distinction of moving and seconding the Address in Reply, and I want, Hr. Speaker, at the outset to extend to both han. members, the member for Ferryland district (r'r. Power) and for N~skaupi (Mr. Goudie) my sincere congratulations on two excellent speeches, excellent in content and equally excellent in delivery. Both hori. members, Mr.

Speaker, are distinguishing themselves in the House, and I am sure that viet~s put forward in' their speeches reflect pretty well the feelings and the hopes and aspirations of their constituents and indeed I would suggest to you, probably most of the people of this Province. 9458 :..

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape no. 4123 Page 2 - ms Hr. !,T, Carter. l~r. Speaker, I am not going to speak at length, but I want to say a few words. mainly about the fisheries and maybe other matters that I view of some concern to the Province and to the people living in the Province. Well let me start off, Mr. Speaker, at the outset by talking about the much heralded $900 million fishery development plan to which we were a party and l>as presented to Ottawa on December 20, 1977. And I want to set the record straight, Hr.

Speaker, as to the ·contents of that proposal and to dispel .the suggestion that has been made by a number of people, including the Federal Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa, that the provinces were looking for this massive infusion of federal money to at least commence the construction of ships the morning after the proposal was submitted. Hr. Speaker, that is anything but the truth.

The fact of the matter is that the Atlantic Provinces , particularly Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, had numerous discussions on the matter of fleet replacements, the matter of projected increases in the fish stocks over the next five, seven, ten years and the need for action to replace a substantial number of the existing fleets and where possible, where necessary, to add new vessels and new technology to the fleet. Our plan, Hr.

Speaker, to Ottawa envisaged the planning of a substantial number of ships over the.next ten years and the reason, of course, being that during that period a number of the vessels presently in service in the Atlantic Provinces, particularly in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, 9459

• • • • • • • ••• • • • • Jtine 8, 1978 Tape No. 4124 cw - 1 MR. CARTER: will have reached the retirement age and unless we are prepared to defer to foreign effort and to forfeit our right to the resource that by that time, we hope, it will gain on the advise of experts in the ·field, will lie rebuilt unless tie gear up ·now to catch that fish then it stands that with- in a few years we are .not going to have harvesti:mg cabability to harvest.the regenerated stocks, consequently we will have to defer to foriegn countries, who I am sure will be more ~~an pleased to gain acess to that resource. In Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, and Newfoundland is not unlike the other Atlantic·Provinces,.particularly Nova Scotia, we have an ageing offshore fishing capability. We have approximately eighty five deep sea ships, about twenty of wl1ich are s.ide trawlers, and I trould submit most of them should have been probably retired from service maybe a couple of years ago. These twenty side trawlers are redundant, obsolete, should be re­ tired from service, uneconomic, both from the owners point of view and from the people who serve on the ships. The average age of our side trawler fleet, Mr.

Speaker is at this point in time, fifteen years, which means of course that as I have said in most cases they have outlived their usefullness. Then we.have the remaining fleet t¥hich is made up of stern trawlers, sixty five or approxil:aately sixty five in number, many of which are now coming to. the age of retirement, all of them getting older. Indeed the average age of the stern trawler fleet is nine and one half to ten years, vlhich means of course that given another four or five years, at most five or six years, all of these ships.will have to be replaced as well. The ot:1er factor, Hr.

Speaker, which is equally important, is the fact that these ships are old, they are in many respects ligl1t years 9460 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4124 Gl- 2 ~!R. CARTER: behing ships o1med and operated by other countries within our t1~o hundred mile limit and in the absence of ne~~ and more sophisticated teChnology these ships, I submit, are unable to compete with the more modern and more sophisticated si•ips operated within our two hundred mile limit and with whom 1ve have to compete. alone by foreign countries • So Hr.

Speaker to sum up with respect to that much critized so called $900,000,000. fleet replacel!lent program; unless the provinces, especially Newfoundland, start now to plan for the replacement'of that ageing, deep sea fishing fleet, then I submit that within ten years, maybe less, the stocks will be rebuilt to where they should be and where we lvant them to be, but we will not be able to benifit from the regenerated stock because our ships by that time will be ebsolete, out of service and those that continue in service 1dll be noncompetitive because of their redundancies and the fact that they have not kept abreast of new technology and new more sophisticated means of harvesting fish.

So, I cannot Hr. Speaker impress upon the House too strongly the need for some kind of an ongoing ship repla~ement program.

I am :tot suggesting that we should start tomorrow morning to lay the (audit) for a hundred ships, it would be ludicrous it would not make sensa to even gi,re a thought to that kind of a program. \Ve all know that the condition of the fish stocks are not yet re- ·stored to a vibrancy or to such a healthy state as to justify building large numbers of additional ships to fish within the areas where we traditionally fisi:J. for traditional species of fish. ~~e must recognize the fact that to i:lUild ships is not an easy prop­ asition.

There is no such thing as an instant boat building pro­ gram, there is no such thing as an stir and trawler to build ships and I would submit that if the ~1inister in Ottav1a were to send us 9461.

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June S, 1978 Tape No. 4124 CH - :! a cheque now for one billion dollars and tell us to start construction of a hundred ships,, I submit :·lr. Speaker, that even with all of the haste that 1ve could 9462

• • • • • • • • • • • June S, 1978 Tape 4125 GH-1 MR. W. CARTER: proceed - with which we. could proceed - but it probably would be three or four years before there would be a ship into the water as a result of that program. It takes a long time. It takes years in fact to properly design ships, to investigate,. to seek out new technology, to seek out new and more sophisticated means of harvesting fish and, of course, it takes months and I suppose more than a year to do the actual construction on that ship. So any plans that the first -my hon. colleague across the way from Burin peninsula (Mr. P.

Canning) has reminded me that the first ship that we built would probably be obsolete before it would hit the w~t~r with today's changing and advancing technology, Mr. Speaker. That statement, I would submit, has a lot of truth in it . MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. minister - he has unlimited time - a moment to welcome to the Bouse on behalf of bon. members 37 students from Grade 8 at Fatima Cant•al 3igh, St. Bride's, in the company of Florence Coffey and Sister Ellen Whitty. They are most welcone and I hope they enjoy their stay. Ron. minister. MR. W. CAR~ER: Mr.

Speaker, it is not enough for the federal government to ignore our request and to try and discredit the authors of the report. That~ I submit, is what is happening, but the fact of the matter is, and the hard cold fact of the matter is that there id a day of reckoning - that the tiae will come in the not too distance future when we must give some thought to replacing the deepsea fleet: because, like I said, if we do not well then we will forfeit our rig~t to that fish and if that is the case well then we deserve to for~eit our right to it .

Newfoundland is not unlike ~ova Scotia, not unlike the other Atlantic Provinces. They too recognize the need for an early start on the 9463 :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June S, 1978 Tape 4125 Gll-2 :IR. W. CARTER: planning, the designing and the construction of offshore ships to replace their aging offshore fleet as well. Then, Mr. Speaker, the $900-~illion program to which I am referring also concains an element dealing with the construction and replacement of an aging inshore fishing fleet. As bon. members might know, in ~ewfoundland today we have approximately 700 longliners, longliners, of course, being a fishing vessel anywhere from 36' in length to a maximum of 65'.

And, of course, 65' is the legal limit as required by federal regulations, because once you exceed the 65' limit then you would - there are certain regulations that would prevent that ship from being operated ·an·d being used within a certain distance of our shores. So, by virtue of these regulations, we are requited to keep the maximum limit, the maximum length of an inshore, midwater longliner to that of 65' or less. So there are in the Province today approximatEly 700 vessels from 36' in length to a maximum of 65'. These vessels are leaving the service at the rate of 10% per year .

In other words, 70 boats a year approximately are leaving the fishing fleet, the inshore fleet,for a variety o~ reasons; and unless a start is made now to replace that fleet ~r at least to build 50 or 60 or 70 vessels a year, well then we are slipping behind. We are not keeping up to date or the fleet itself is not being kept up to its present strer.ztt.

At this point in time when we talk about rebuilding the stocks, about the new interest being •hown in fisheries, about the new and exciting attitude that is emer~ing on the part of our fishermen especially, fish processors and govern­ ments, it would not make sense to allow our fishinc fleet to deplete to the poi~t where the harvesting of the regenerated stock again would be left up to foreisn fishing efforts . 9464

• • • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 Ta;>e 4125 GH-3 HR. n. COLLil:S: We need 70 just to keep - :m.. l!. CARTER: l~e need - the Uinister of Health has reminded me we need approximately 70 longliners a year to keep abreast of the existing longliner fleet, and· I regret to inform the House, Mr. Speaker, that that ~umber is 9465

• • • • • • •• • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4126 IB-1 MR. W. CARTER: not being built. We are in no way building seventy longliners a year. In fact submit that I doubt very much if ~1e are building a third of that number .. As a matter of fact at the present time the only real interest, real activity, in· the building. of the longliner fleets is evidenced by the provincial government's own programme of building twenty boats a year for the· next five years.

And in 1978 there will soon be twenty boats launched that have been built under the provincial government's boat building programme with no federal participation whatever, all provincial funds. These boats will be completely we hope within a few months and will then find their way into the hands of qualified fishermen and of course in time will enter the fishing fleet in the harvesting of the resource. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is an ongoing problem, the prob 1 em of finding adequate harvesting capabi 1 ity both in the offshore and inshore to keep abreast of the regenerated fish stocks as the building of boats that are keeping abreast of new technqlogy, new and more sophisticated ways and means of processing or at least of harvesting the resource. So the much talked about and I might add, much criticized $900 million rlan, Mr.

Speaker, I believe was a very essential, a very important plan and it is certainly one that should not be ignored by the powers that be in Ottawa because without that kind of an organized approach to the replacement of our fleet well' then I submit that Newfoundland, indeed the Atlantic Provinces in general, will miss a golden opportunity to real capitalize on ·a regenerated fishery as in fact it will be within anywhere from seven to ten years. Scientists, Mr.

Speaker, biologists have advised the federal government whose responsibility it is to establish the allowable catches of various species in various areas, scientists and biologists have advised their federal employers and the federal minister and others that by 1985 cod stocks within our so called Northern Waters, that is the area between Cape Chidley in the North 9466

• • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4126 IB-2 MR. W. CARTER: to off Cape St. Mary's ~in the South, that our cod stocks will increase from 135,000 tons in 1977 to approximately 300,000 tons iil 1985, more than a doub 1 i ng of the resource that ~li 11 be there in the next seven years. I believe it is incumbent on us as a government and our federal counterparts and the industry to· gear up and to use every devise at our disposal to ensure that our fishermen are given every possible chance ·to benefit from that renewed and regenerated resource. ANd if we do not do it then, Mr.

Speaker, I think that we have failed our fishermen and all others who depend on the fishery for a livelihood . I again, Mr. Speaker,through thi_s House plead with Ottawa to take seriously the plan presented· to them by the Atlantic Provinces on December 20 in which we have asked not for a cheque for $900 million, not for a blank cheque to go out and to irresponsibly_start building ships without regard for the resource but we ask for a statement of their policy. To what extent, for example, can the private sector expect ass.istance from Ottawa for the replacement of our aging fleet both inshore and offshore?

What is their policy? Are they going to reinstate, for example, the subsidy that has been paid on longliners, 9467

• • • • • • •• •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape no. 4127 · Page 1 - ms ~!r. IJ. Carter. on ships from forty-five to sixty-five feet in length. Are they going to ·increase and.iri fact, at least, to continue and maybe increase their ·assistance for the building of trawlers or deep-sea trawlers?

These are questions that ~~e believe must be answered, and we believe that the private sector whose responsibility it is to appoint, to build ships, and to ensure that the fish and raw material is kept in their plants to keep the plants operating, '~e believe that they are entitled to answers to these questions, because in the absence of answers in a firm and definitive statement of the federal government's policy in th~t respect, well then we are groping, heading off in all directions without. any meaningful plan as to how we are going to tackle the problems that will confront us within the next five or ten years.

Mr. Speaker, we have been accused by the Opposition and others in .this Province of not having any fishery development plan. Now I am a little le~ry of fishery development plans. In fact I sometimes feel a little embarrassed talking about· plans and surveys and studies and '"'hat have you, because, I suppose, there is not an industry in Canada that has been more studied than the fishing industry.

It is literally studied to death and for that reason I am a little reluctant to disclose our planning to a certain extent, to disclosing too much detail the planning that is now taking place with respect to the fisheries, I would prefer to wait until the plans have been completed and until 1ve are reasonably sure that the recommendations contained therein, certainly those that are feasible, can in fact be implemented. Well let me, Hr. Speaker, today touch on a few of the things that we are doing right now within the Department of Fisheries and· governnent in general. As han. members know last 9468

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape no. 4127 Page 2 - ms _:'!r. H. Carter . year ~~e commissioned a study into the feasibility of establishing a central distribution port in the Province. A ~~ell-known and highly reputable and competent Canadian consulting engineering.firm, Kelogg's Limited, was commissioned by the government to undertake a comprehensive study into the ·possibility of establishing somewhere within the Province a central.landing and distribution port that could in fact assist in the distribution of fish landed by offshore vessels to our otherwise under utilized inshore fish plants.

That study, Mr. Speaker, has now been completed, and it is being studied by a committee of Cabinet, a committee working with people from the public service, qualified people from the pu~lic service, and once that study has been completed then we will be making our plans known in that regard. But, Mr. Speaker, the concept itself, I think, is a very exciting one, extremely exciting. We recognize the need for more through puts of raw material in our fish plarits.In Newfoundland today we have 115 fish processing plants scattered around the Island, dotting the coastline of our Province, 115 plants.

About 100 of them are seasonable plants operating at less than'thirty-five per cent capacity. The others are concentrated, of course, on the south coast of the Province. I suppose the most northerly year round plant is the one over here, National Sea on the Southside of St. John's Harbour. The rest as, as hon. members know - oh, yes, Catalina. I am sorry. Catalina would be the most northerly year round fish plant operating in the Province. Everything north of Catalina and northwest of Catalina can be called, a seasonable operation, a plant that would be operating anywhere from 9469

• • • •• • • • •• • • • June 3, 1978 Tape No. 4123 r.T-1 twenty to thirty-five percent capacity from three, four, five months of the year and then,.of course, once the ~nshore fishery ceases to function in October and November these seasonal plants are forced to close their doors and pay off the workers who were eaployed. In my own riding in St. Bride's from where there are students, I believe, today visiting, there is a seasonal fish plant that is operating from Nay until September-<lctober, a plant that I believe is quite capable of a year-round operation.

With c~rtain modifications, certain improvements, that plant as well as others around the Province could be made year-round operations when, in fact, now they are very uneconomic. Any business lvhether it is a fish plant, service station, supermarket, drtJg store, any business that has its doors closed to the public sixty-five and seventy, percent of its time cannot, I submit, ~!r. Speaker, make any worthtvhile contribution to the people that are employed in that plant or to the community in which it is situated, ?r to the Province.

Host of our plants are uneconomic for that reason, as would, indeed, any business operating at thirty-five percent capacity. Because of their uneconomics, the uneconomic nature of the operations, they are unable to pay fishermen the price to !·chich, I believe, they are entitled for their fish and unable to become the type of corporate citizens that He would and, indeerl, sl:ould expect from businesses operating !vi thin our communi ties and within our Province. Ho~r can a fish plant, ~·lr. Speaker, operating in Valleyfield, ~!e;rfotmdland; Fogo Island; or in St. ~ride's: Branch; La Scie; St.

Anthony; anywhere -how can they hope to be able to nake any meaningful contribution to their respective commtmities and to their province, to the people that work for them, when they are operating at about thirty-five percent capacity? So, I believe, Hr. Speal:er, it is quite obvious that the ans1ver is to find tvays and means to increase t~1e productivity of these plants lvhere possible and as much as possible and :

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1?78 Tape ?·:o. 4128 RT-2 1-iR. 1./. CARTER: by whatever means possible. If tve are 3oing to sit back, ":r. Speaker, and 11ai t for t~e inshore fishe.ry to develop to the point where these plants, these otherwise seasonal plants, can be operated on a year-round basis, then I submit to you that ~1e are going to be waiting for a long. time because it does not matter if 1ve build boats with ·gold-plated bottoms, the most sophisticated, modern inshore fleet in the world, they small boats 1vill not be able to operate at certain times of the year. I would not want, l·fr.

Speaker, to encourage our fishermen to brave the North Atlantic, say, off Fogo Island, in the middle of the winter. Of course, with ice conditions as they are and other climatic conditions as they are, that would. be absolutely impossible. So, I repeat that if we are going to hang our hats, as it were, on t~e inshore fishery to provide enough raw material to keep our hundred inshore fish plants operating on a year-round basis, well, then, I think we are going to be waitinz for a long time. In fact, I do not think it will ever happen.

In fact, bearing in nind the hazards involved and the dangers, 1-1eather and other problems facinr, fishermen at that time of the year, I do not think I IV"ould want to encourage it. So, therefore, :~r. Speaker, we must then l!!ake up our r..inds. Hhat are the alternatives?

Havinp; ~letvfounclancers - P:aving the vast majority of our fellm• :~et-1foundlancl.ers that are employed in the processing as Hell as the harvesting sector of the industry ern?loyed on a part-time basis for four or five months and then being forced on unemployment insurance, or 1:1ay~e even HOrse, Helfare, for six or seven months of the year, to me is not acceptable . 9471 .- .·

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4129 IB-1 MR. W. CARTER: I do not accept the proposition that Newfoundlanders must be relegated to the ~tatus of being welfare recipients for seven or eight months of the year for the rest of their lives. In fact I do not think it i_s a healthy situation. It is demeaning. It is demoralizing and in fact it does very.little for the image of our people as portrayed in other provinces. The ideal situation of course, Mr.

Speaker, would be to find ways and means of keeping our fish processors working for as long as possible and as close to year around.as possible and of course to keep our fishermen occupied for as long as possible as well in any given year. Like I said that cannot be done if we are going to become totally reliant on the inshore fishery. So the answer, Mr. Speaker, therefore is obvious. The only alternative is obvious.

We must find ways and means of supplying these plants, these hundred seasonal plants, those that are capable of being serviced and operated year around, we must find ways and means of keeping these plants operating for as long as possible,if possible year around but certainly for as long as possible on raw material landed other than by the inshore fleet.

Of course the only option that is open to us therefore is to develop an offshore fleet one way or the other by whatever means at our disposal where fish can be harvested by these vessels, landed at a given point or landed in a number of areas, held in cold storage for distribution to these seasonal plants once the inshore fishery ceases for the year. . And I have taken the long way around, Mr.

Speaker, describing why we are now actively involved in the very, very important study, a study that I believe could in fact revolutionize the Newfoundland way of life, in fact even more importantly a study that could have the effect, I submit will have the effect of ensuring that the Newfoundland way of life, that the rura 1 Newfound 1 and way of 1 ife wi 11 continue and wi 11 be allowed to thrive and to prosper and to provide for the people who are 9472

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4129 IB-2 MR. I~. CARTER: living in our Newfoundland outports, the dignity and the self respect that comes from being able to involve in gainful employment and to make a worthwhile contribution to their families, to their community and to their Province. The idea, Mr:.

Speaker, of a centra 1 port 1 ike I said is to provide .the necessary infrastructure which is the new word, I suppose, for facilities, a place where the necessary facilities will be provided, unloading facilities, for example, other facilities that are essential for the unloading and ·for the serving of large ships, cold storage holding facilities, fish meal processing facilities, other facilities like I said that are essential for the operation of a fishing fleet such as gear repair facilities, maybe in time a gear manufacturing capability, facilities for crew members of these ships,as crews are changed to g.ive them shore leave.

But a port, Mr. Speaker, in the Province, an ice free port, a port that is as accessible as possible by road and by other means, accessible to the small otherwise seasonal plants beJng operated around our coast and of course a port that iscapable of giving access to large numbers of large offshore fishing ships and other ships that will be directly related to the fishing industry such as oil tankers, "I suppose, and bulk carriers and other type ships .

That is what the study. is all about, to identify fir·st of all the area in the Province where that kind of a port can be designated and then having done that then 9473

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape no. 4130 Page 1 - ms ...!~'!· H. Carter. the planning of the necessary facilities that I have just outlined to the Rouse. The Province, Hr. Speaker, we have not~ pretty t~ell decided where that port can and in_ fact · should he located. I am not prepared now to reveal the location of that port, out I can tell you that our decision has been made with respect to its location. I am excited by the concept, because it is one that has been adopted by other countries.

In fact most of the world's progressive fishing countries ~ and I could name a few, England, Germany, Poland, Norway, Portugal, Spain - most of these countries have just that type of a facility, a centralized land-ing and distribution area from where fish can be "first of all held in ~torage and later distributed to the various plants for final processing. I predict, Hr.

Speaker, that t~ithin five years, five, six, seven years, that type of a facility will be established in our Province and like I said I believe that it will be a very important link in the future prospects of our fishing industry and the continuation of our much loved and . . much envi_ed Newfoundland way of life, because the fishing industry in this Province,_ unlike, I suppose, any other ' industry, unlike any other ,industry, our fishing industry is "the most vital link to a continuat'ion of our Newfou:'.dland outport life.

Without the fishing industry-;- I suppose, there are at least 200 or 300, 250 Newfoundland communities viable, beautiful communities - these c-ommunities would not exist. In fact, I suppose, they would not have been there in the first place. without the fishing ir.dustry. And,. of cou10se, if these communities are allowed to die,, if they are allowed to be resettled, if they are forced to be resettled, then, of course, if they die, with it will die a way of life that we have enjoyed in this Province now for. almost 500 years.

And I believe that that is \~hy it is so impor~ant, so very important that ~~e make the right decisions now with respect to the development of our fisheries because there is more than just the livelihood of 9474

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape no. 4130 Page 2 - ms .J~r. l~. Carter • that t~e mke the right decisions now with respect to the devel~pment of our fisheries because there is more than just the livelihood of 7,000 or 8,000 fishermen depending on the fisheries, That which depends on the development of our fishery, Mr, Speaker, is the culture,·is the real Newfoundland ·culture or at least the way of life that made Newfoundlanders en~ied by most Canadians, certainly most landlocked upper Canadians living within this country . Mr.

Speaker, while I am talking about the importance of the fishing industry to our Newfoundland way of life, maybe it would be appropriate for me to make reference now to our relations with Ottawa and to our determination in this Province that the Provincial Government and the private sector and indeed the fishermen themselves be allowed to have a greater say, be given a greater input into the decision making processes that take place 1,500 miles inland, on the banks of the Rideau Cannal in Ottawa, decisions that have such far-reaching effects on the lives of our people and the lives of generations yet unborn.

Now I am not content as one Newfoundlander, and I believe I echo the sentiments of all Newfoundlanders - I 1vas going to say nb.ety-nine per cent, but I would say all Newfoundlanders - when I say that we do have a right to have a say in the shaping of our destiny. 1-!e do have a right to be able to have some input into the plapning of our. future and to as much extent as possible, at least to· as much as possible to assist in or at least to be party to the planning of our fishing industry and to be the architects of our own destiny. Tha~ is· something, Mr. Speaker, that we are not getting nmv.

I have said this before and I will say it again, and I will continue to say it 9475

• • • • • • • •• • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape 4131 IB-1 MR. H. CARTER: until somebody up there recognizes the logic of what I am saying, that Newfoundlanders. must unite.

We must challenge the authority of Ottawa when in fact we believe that their decisions are not in the best interests of our Province and our future prospects especially in such critical areas as the fishing industry. believe we have a duty, a responsibility, to do all we can and to use every devise at our disposal to ensure that our voices are heard and that we·are given a chance to help shape the future development of our P.rovince and to be the architects of our own destiny.· And to this point in time, Mr.

Speaker, that privilege has not been accorded this Province or indeed any of the Atlantic Provinces insofar as fishery development is concerned. I, for one, Mr. Speaker, am not prepared to accept colonial status.