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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, April 10, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 14, Number 7 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, April 10, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 6207 Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 6207 Score Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003 (Bill Pr405) R. Nijjar Ash Developments Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003 (Bill Pr401) V.

Anderson Kennett Contracting Limited (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003 (Bill Pr402) V. Anderson Cam Glass Inc. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003 (Bill Pr403) T. Christensen M&M Insulations Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003 (Bill Pr404) T. Christensen Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 6208 Vast educational opportunities centre in Port Alberni G. Trumper Prevention of violence against women P. Sahota Pacific Assistance Dogs Society J.

Nuraney Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 6209 Role of Fisheries minister in investigation into Stolt Sea Farm J. MacPhail Hon. J. van Dongen Labour dispute at Simon Fraser University H. Bloy Hon. G. Bruce Anchoring fees in marine parks B. Kerr Hon. J. Murray Use of ditch water for irrigation T. Bhullar Hon. J. van Dongen Business immigration and investment P. Wong Hon. R. Thorpe Appeal of monetary awards to Woodwards building protesters J. MacPhail Hon. G.

Abbott Independent living services S. Orr Hon. K. Whittred Petitions ...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 6212 K. Manhas Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 6212 Securities Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 24) I. Chong Hon. R. Thorpe

Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ........................................... 6214 Securities Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 24) Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 6214 Coalbed Gas Act (Bill 16) J. MacPhail Hon. R.

Neufeld Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ........................................... 6223 Coalbed Gas Act (Bill 16) Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6223 Estimates: Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management (continued) Hon. S. Hagen J.

MacPhail Royal Assent to Bills .......................................................................................................... ...................................................... 6232 Foresters Act (Bill 5) Police Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 12) Coalbed Gas Act (Bill 16) Procurement Services Act (Bill 23) Securities Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 24) Hospital District Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 25) Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 30)

6207 THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 The House met at 2:04 p.m. Introductions by Members J. Nuraney: We have in the gallery today Dorothy and Don Wrigley. It was Don who ten years ago saved, restored and installed a carousel, which has become a pride of Burnaby, in a pavilion that is named after him. Please join me in welcoming Don and Dorothy Wrigley. G. Trumper: Today I would like to ask the House to welcome students from the Vast leadership program in school district 70.

They are John Roberts, Roy Roberts, Jesse Chase, Jen McBride, Judy Horgan, Steve Standing- worth, Lisa Ho, Lianne Lawson, Cory Roywood, Josh Johnson, Dwayne Coutts, Ray Gore and their principal, Mr. Tom McEvay. Please make them welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: In the gallery today are some rep- resentatives from Weyerhaeuser, a great forest corpora- tion in British Columbia: Anne Giardini, Tom Holmes, Ted Kimoto, Lawrence Pillon, James O'Hanley and Bob Taylor. I'd like the House to make them all welcome. [1405] K. Krueger: In the summer of 2001 we imported a young man to be the research director for the B.C.

Lib- eral caucus here in the Legislature. He came from On- tario. He had a strong background there. He found out this is no Queen's Park, but he distinguished himself for us. Sadly, for family reasons he's decided to move b a c k t o O n t a r i o . W e ' l l m i s s h i m . W e w i s h h i m G o d - speed and wish him well. He's leaving a part of himself here. We're not sure where it went, but he lost his hair and 40 pounds while he was here. We say to his mother: "We send him back to you. We've trimmed him up.

We ask you to look after him and make sure he doesn't slip back on us." All the best to Satinder Chera from all of us. Hon. R. Neufeld: It's so seldom I get to stand in the House and introduce anyone, and it's not from Peace River North. In the gallery today are Ernestine and Lawrence Sweet. They are family members of Colleen Sweet, my executive assistant. She's very happy to have them here visiting with her from New Brunswick. Would the House please make them welcome. R.

Visser: Well, today in the gallery is somebody who's followed me around the riding, had a heck of a time trying to get me to return his phone calls and in fact has had real trouble trying to get a meeting with me for the last three months. He's here today. He fi- nally tracked me down. Would the House please make Ted Skwarok, my constituency assistant, welcome. P. Wong: I'm pleased to introduce the second half of the 160 students visiting from Sir Charles Tupper Secondary School in my riding.

Once again, I'm pleased to inform the House that I have garnered an- other $500 scholarship from the Better Community Partnership Outreach Network sponsor, Mr. Johnny Fong. This is the fourth scholarship awarded to the students of the school under this network program. These 84 students are led by respectable teachers Mr. Ferguson, Ms. Heather Paris, Mr. Brian Chan and Mr. Aaron Mueller, along with the school's vice-principal, Mr. Chris Atkinson. Would the House please extend our warmest welcome again. T.

Christensen: As any members of the House who follow junior hockey in this province will know, the Vernon Vipers are becoming a junior hockey legacy in British Columbia. Last night they beat the Chilliwack Chiefs 1-0 to sweep that series and capture their fourth British Columbia championship since 1990 and their ninth since 1970. It may come as some consolation to the members from Chilliwack that they're in good company. Prior to the Chilliwack series, the Vipers had smoked the Trail S m o k e E a t e r s i n f o u r s t r a i g h t g a m e s , a n d t h e y h a d tamed the Penticton Panthers in four games.

In fact, the Vipers are on a 15-game winning streak including the regular season. They're now on to pursue the Doyle Cup against the champions of Alberta, and I'm sure it will be on to another national championship with the Royal Bank Cup in Charlottetown. I wish them the best of luck, and I think it's time for all members of this House, whether they're from Chilliwack, Trail or Penticton, to wish them good luck as well. Hon. K. Falcon: In the precinct today, although I'm not sure if he is in the galleries or not, I ran into a former Attorney General of British Columbia, Alex Macdonald.

Alex was also a former professor of mine at SFU, and I'd like to point out to Alex that I thought he was a far better professor than he was an MLA. Nevertheless, he's a very, very fine man, and he was a very good professor. I would ask that the House please make Alex welcome. Hon. M. Coell: In the House today are a number of students from Boundary Park School and their teach- ers, and with them is my cousin, Justin Baarts. Would the House please make them all welcome. [1410] Introduction and First Reading of Bills SCORE RESOURCES LTD. (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2003 R.

Nijjar presented a bill intituled Score Resources Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003. R. Nijjar: Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill, of which notice has been given on the order paper, be introduced now and read a first time.

6208 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 Motion approved. R. Nijjar: I move that the bill be referred to the Se- lect Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. Bill Pr405 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. ASH DEVELOPMENTS LTD. (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2003 V. Anderson presented a bill intituled Ash Devel- opments Ltd. (Corporation Restoration) Act, 2003. V. Anderson: Mr.

Speaker, I move that the bill, of which notice has been given on the order paper, be introduced now and read a first time. Motion approved. V. Anderson: I move that the bill be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. Bill Pr401 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. KENNETT CONTRACTING LIMITED (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2003 V.

Anderson presented a bill intituled Kennett Con- tracting Limited (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003. V. Anderson: I move that the bill, of which notice has been given on the order paper, be introduced now and read a first time. Motion approved. V. Anderson: I move that the bill be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. Bill Pr402 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. CAM GLASS INC. (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2003 T.

Christensen presented a bill intituled Cam Glass Inc. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003. T. Christensen: I move that the bill, of which notice has been given on the order paper, be introduced and now read a first time. Motion approved. T. Christensen: I move that the bill be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. Bill Pr403 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. M&M INSULATIONS LTD. (CORPORATE RESTORATION) ACT, 2003 T.

Christensen presented a bill intituled M&M Insu- lations Ltd. (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003. T. Christensen: I move that the bill, of which notice has been given on the order paper, be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. T. Christensen: Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parlia- mentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. Bill Pr404 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) VAST EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES CENTRE IN PORT ALBERNI G. Trumper: We have in the House today students from the Vast Educational Centre of school district 70. These programs are led by Tom McEvay, the principal — someone who has a gift for motivating students, and someone for whom I have the greatest respect. I know that some of the other MLAs had the opportunity to meet these students earlier on. The education centre is an accredited B.C. public school offering students in school district 70 alternative means to complete B.C. curriculum in grades 10 to 12.

Students enrolled in Vast are a minimum of 16 years of age through to adult learners. Students at Vast are usu- ally seeking a B.C. graduation, an adult graduation or some form of upgrading. Vast offers courses in a standard, self-paced format using learning guides and textbooks, as well as com- puter-delivered curriculum. They can apply to have adjudication of prior learning and equivalency for courses. External course credits can be granted, based upon ministry guidelines.

Some students are develop- ing independent directed studies with their advisers, and a growing number of students are combining courses from Vast, the regular high school and even the local college in their education plans.

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6209 The centre is one component of the alternate pro- grams of the Alberni school district. These programs include three intensive behaviour support programs called project classes; the options focus program, which is a transition program for high-risk youth; a separate adult education class; hospital home support; and an in-school alternate program in junior secondaries. All of these programs are designed to meet the diverse needs of the learners and to ensure that no student is forgotten in school district 70. PREVENTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN P.

Sahota: For eight years the government of British Columbia has recognized the fourth week of April as Prevention of Violence Against Women Week. We set aside this week in April in the hopes that people around this province have the opportunity to consider this very important and serious issue. [1415] As a society we have recognized that violence ex- ists, and most of us know that women and children are the most vulnerable. We know that during this week we set aside this month, too many women will be the victims of violence — most likely by someone they know, most likely by someone that's their partner.

On any day this week or next week or the week after, our government will provide services in the 61 transition houses around the province. Other women will be staying at safe houses and second-stage housing as they try to rebuild their lives. The government pro- vides more than $25 million a year to community or- ganizations to operate transition houses, safe homes and second-stage housing in communities all around this province. We provide a further $7 million each year to Stopping the Violence counselling and Children Who Witness Abuse counselling. Through our actions we are making changes.

In the coming months the Minister of State for Women's Equal- ity will introduce a safer community strategy that will examine programs for women and make sure that women are receiving the access to the services they need. We also have a role not only as elected officials but as citizens. Each one of us must accept personal re- sponsibility for stepping forward and helping to pro- tect women and children against abuse and for stop- ping the violence. We must speak out when we see and hear things that contribute to violence against any member of our society.

I would ask each and every one of us in this House to consider what we can do in our everyday lives year- round to meet this commitment in our constituencies and in our work. PACIFIC ASSISTANCE DOGS SOCIETY J. Nuraney: I would like to speak today about an organization that is offering a very unique service to people who are facing the daily challenges of life with a disability other than blindness. The society is called the Pacific Assistance Dogs So- ciety and is based in Burnaby. We all have heard about the seeing dogs that help people with blindness.

PADS dogs, however, are specially trained to aid the physically disabled, the deaf and the hard of hearing or are placed with professional caregivers who work with the elderly, the disabled and in the long- term care facilities. They are a great support for persons unable to per- form simple tasks such as turning on light switches, re- trieving dropped items or even answering telephones. They also instil in their recipients a greater sense of con- fidence and independence.

According to Statistics Can- ada, there are approximately 240,000 mobility-impaired, 241,000 agility-impaired and 170,000 hearing-impaired people in B.C. alone, and this is only a part of the population that PADS attempts to service. These dogs are valued between $6,000 and $15,000, depending upon the level of skills training. The society has placed about 70 working dogs so far. What is commendable is the fact that this organization operates entirely on community and corporate donations. This is a very good example of the success of a true commu- nity effort to meet a need of our society.

This is also an organization that has acquired interna- tional recognition and accreditation. I'm looking forward to attending a graduation event this weekend, on Satur- day, where these dogs will exhibit their skills and training. I would like to congratulate the society for the in- valuable work they do and also the volunteers like Don and Dorothy Wrigley, who help make the lives of those who really need this service a little better. Mr. Speaker: That concludes member statements. Oral Questions ROLE OF FISHERIES MINISTER IN INVESTIGATION INTO STOLT SEA FARM J.

MacPhail: Yesterday the Attorney General gave the Minister of Fisheries clearance to answer questions about his role in the ongoing fish farm fiasco. Let me quote from the Attorney as he said in yesterday's esti- mates: "There is no restriction I'm aware of that flows out of the special prosecutor process, which in any way constrains the ability of the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries to answer questions with respect to what the reason for the investigation was…what ac- tions he may or may not have taken…." So, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries has the Attorney's clearance.

Now let me ask the minister again exactly what I asked him in the House over the last few days: could the minister tell this House what his role was in advocating whether to pursue or not pursue Water, Land and Air Protection's investigation into Stolt Sea Farm? [1420] Hon. J. van Dongen: I want to, first of all, ac- knowledge to this House that I did make a mistake — that I released a document that should have remained

6210 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 confidential. In any of my dealings as minister, it was never my intent to interfere with any investigation or compromise any investigation. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. J. MacPhail: I'm not sure whether the minister thinks that this is a confessional or what, but that's not good enough. He's had clearance from the Attorney General to answer specific questions. The Premier, too, said that the minister should come clean.

The Premier said that he would be talking to the minister personally to encourage him to come clean. There's no legal, political and cer- tainly no ethical reason why the minister continues to hide information from the public. All he has to do is answer the questions that he dodged yesterday. He dodged by hiding behind the special prosecutor's report. He's had clearance from the Attorney General. Again, I ask him a question I asked him in the House the day before yesterday: did the minister know that representatives of Stolt Sea Farm were personally lobbying to have the investigations into its practices stopped?

When did he know that? Hon. J. van Dongen: I was certainly aware that Stolt had issues with the second investigation. As I said, I have never taken any action to compromise any investigation or any of the process involved in the in- vestigation and the decision to lay charges. I've never taken any action — never intended to take any action — to compromise an investigation. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplementary. J. MacPhail: Unfortunately, all we have in this House is the minister's word, which, frankly, is not worth much right now.

In fact, the minister didn't an- swer the question. The question was: when did he know? He didn't answer that question. He said that he never did anything to compromise an investigation. I asked him a specific question. When did he know? The minister escaped criminal charges, but he has not escaped his responsibility to account for his actions. He has legal and political clearance to answer the ques- tions. He continues to dodge; he continues to hide; he continues to evade. He should know it's in his best interests, for his own political career, to come clean. I asked the minister… Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Let us hear the ques- tion, hon. members. J. MacPhail: … y e s t e r d a y w h a t p a r t o f h i s o a t h o f confidentiality he didn't understand. Apparently, he thought that meant he had to keep the public in the dark and only let his political backers in on the secrets. Again to the minister — simple question, one I asked yesterday: did the minister have other conversations with fish farm operators that are under investigation? When did he have those conversations? Hon.

J. van Dongen: First of all, I was generally aware in the summer and fall of 2001 that there was a concern about the second investigation. I'm not aware of any other investigations into my conduct or any conduct of the ministry. J. MacPhail: You're sure? Hon. J. van Dongen: Yes, I am. Simply to confirm that all of the relevant information was available to the special prosecutor — that's my understanding. J. MacPhail: Release the report, then. Hon. J. van Dongen: That's my understanding. The matter was…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Let us…. Order. Hon.

J. van Dongen: I've answered your question. I'm simply confirming that the matter, as far as I know, was fully investigated. The special prosecutor reported out, and the results of the report…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Let's have order in this chamber, please. This is a serious matter. Mr. Minister, please continue. [1425] Hon. J. van Dongen: I simply want to restate it was never my intent to compromise an investigation, and the matter has been dealt with through the special prosecutor's report. LABOUR DISPUTE AT SIMON FRASER UNIVERSITY H. Bloy: My question is to the Minister of Skills Development and Labour.

My riding of Burquitlam is home to Simon Fraser University, one of the country's finest post-secondary institutions. In recent weeks my constituents have been following the current labour dispute there with much interest. In Bill 27, the Education Services Collective Agree- ment Act,

section 5 provides for the minister to review the collective bargaining structure in the education system. In light of the situation at Simon Fraser Uni- versity and at the University of British Columbia, can the Minister of Skills Development and Labour tell the House what he has done with this provision in Bill 27? Hon. G. Bruce: I think it's important to note that in the issue with SFU, the parties have agreed to my in-

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6211 clusion of an industrial inquiry commissioner, who is working on trying to come to a successful negotiation between the parties. I am confident and hopeful that will, in fact, occur. Of course, as an indication of good- will, the union stopped the picketing that was taking place there, and the exams have carried on. I'm hopeful that in short order, we'll hear back and there can be a successfully negotiated contract. In respect to Bill 27 and the aspect of reviewing the negotiating structure of K-to-12, I have the mandate within that particular act, under

section 5, if I choose to move ahead and review that particular process. I've embarked upon a course of meeting with a number of the players — the BCTF, the Principals and Vice- Principals Association, the B.C. School Trustees Asso- ciation and CUPE as a member union — in and amongst the school organizations to determine whether or not there really is a will to review that process. I'll be reporting back as I move through on that and am determined to let you know just what my steps will be. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. ANCHORING FEES IN MARINE PARKS B.

Kerr: My question is to the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection. Recently a number of my constituents have approached me, expressing their concerns about the new proposal to charge anchoring fees in marine parks. I'm grateful to the minister that she held meetings with me and a number of my col- leagues, and I also understand she has had other meet- ings with regard to these proposed fees. My question is to the minister: can she provide the House and my con- stituents with an update on these new proposed fees? Hon. J. Murray: Yes, we have had a number of meetings.

My staff have had meetings with associa- tions representing boaters as well, and they've been constructive and positive meetings. One thing I know is that boaters care about protecting the environment of the marine parks, and a number of the clubs voluntar- ily help out with cleaning up the marine parks. We do expect them, though — as we expect all park users to — to contribute to the costs of maintaining and servicing the marine parks, so those discussions about how that will happen are underway.

We are taking a second look at those fees, and I can assure the member we will not be charging for anchoring in marine parks. USE OF DITCH WATER FOR IRRIGATION T. Bhullar: My question is to the Minister of Agri- culture, Food and Fisheries. Numerous produce farms are irrigating from ditches in the Fraser Valley, and from a quick glance, one can see they're polluted with hydrocarbons and other pollutants. My question is: are there regulations in place to prohibit farmers from drawing water from these ditches, and if there are, what method is in place to ensure compliance with these regulations? [1430] Hon.

J. van Dongen: Under our food safety busi- ness area and within our ministry, we are working closely with the health authorities in the area on that issue. There is an issue of E. coli in water in ditches that has been used for irrigation and, in some cases, for washing vegetables. Our staff are working closely with the farms involved and the health authorities on that matter. BUSINESS IMMIGRATION AND INVESTMENT P. Wong: My question is to the Minister of Compe- tition, Science and Enterprise. British Columbia has much to offer to foreign entrepreneurs looking to in- vest in our province.

B.C.'s plentiful supply of natural resources, strategic location on the Pacific Rim and excellent quality of life make the province an attractive investment destination. To the Minister of Competi- tion, Science and Enterprise: what is the government's plan to maximize business investment immigration to British Columbia? Hon. R. Thorpe: British Columbia is the location of choice for business immigration and investment.

Not only are we a globally competitive destination for investment, as a result of the new-era commitments that we made to British Columbia — most importantly, that we've kept to British Columbians — but we're also the gateway to the world's largest markets: our friends, the United States. Our government, led by the Premier, is committed to in- creasing business immigration to British Columbia. In conjunction with our partners the federal gov- ernment, we have three main programs — namely, the investor program, the entrepreneur program and the provincial nominee program.

In the investor category, we currently have $40 million invested and under management in British Columbia. In the entrepreneur category, approximately $80 million is invested each year in companies and therefore job creation. The pro- vincial nominee program for business investment started in September of 2000, and we expect to generate more than $25 million in new investment. British Columbia is open for business. Business immigrants are coming to British Columbia. They're showing their confidence in British Columbia, in our government, by making investments here and creating jobs throughout British Columbia.

APPEAL OF MONETARY AWARDS TO WOODWARDS BUILDING PROTESTERS J. MacPhail: On November 7, 2002, the Supreme Court of B.C. awarded $100 to each of the Woodwards protesters that appeared in court. The judge did this because the Housing corporation discontinued con-

6212 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 tempt proceedings in court without notice. The 39 homeless people who appeared in court were awarded this small sum for their inconvenience. It is my under- standing that the B.C. Housing corporation is appeal- ing that decision, trying to get their $100 back from these 39 homeless people. Can the housing minister say whether that is true? Can he explain, if so, why he's wasting the court's time and money to get $100 back from a group of homeless people? Can he tell us if it's costing taxpayers more than the $3,900 to appeal this decision? Hon. G.

Abbott: It is correct that we are appealing that decision. I know the member may have some diffi- culty understanding this, because it is a point of prin- ciple, but frankly, we don't believe it is appropriate to reward people for lawbreaking. We think the decision was one we should appeal, and that is in fact what we are going to do as a point of principle. Again, while… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. G. Abbott: …the member may be a stranger to principle, this is a government that is not. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The member for Victoria-Hillside was on her feet before the bell.

INDEPENDENT LIVING SERVICES S. Orr: My question is to the Minister for Intermedi- ate, Long Term and Home Care. I understand that in some communities across the province, including mine of Victoria-Hillside, there is a shortage of affordable housing that offers independent living with supports for seniors. For many seniors on fixed income, the alterna- tive private sector facilities are way, way too expensive. I ask the minister to explain what she is doing to ensure that people on low incomes have access to these services. [1435] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Will the Leader of the Opposition and the minister ple ase come to o rder so we may he ar the answer from the Minister for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care. Hon. K. Whittred: I thank the member for her ques- tion. The member, in fact, is correct. It's always been that only those people with high incomes could afford, in fact, to live in independent living with supports. That is why we have introduced the Independent Liv- ing B.C. program. This program is a partnership be- tween B.C. Housing, the federal government, the health authorities and, in fact, either for-profit or not- for-profit providers.

In that program we are supplying 3,500 units that will be there for low- to moderate- income people. They will offer not only housing but meals, services, housekeeping and personal care. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. K. Whittred: These units are affordable. No client, regardless of income, will pay more than 70 per- cent of their income for that whole basket of services. [End of question period.] Petitions K. Manhas: I'd like to table a petition from 23 of my constituents regarding aquaculture in the ALR. Orders of the Day Hon. G.

Abbott: Today in the House I call commit- tee stage debate on Bill 24. For the information of members, that will be followed by debate on committee stage of Bill 16, followed by estimates debate for the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management. Committee of the Whole House SECURITIES AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 24, J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:39 p.m. On

section 1,

section 1. I. Chong: I have a very quick question on

section 1. I'm wondering if the minister could explain and clarify what quotation and trade reporting systems are and the intent of adding that to this expanded definition. [1440] Hon. R. Thorpe: Quotation and reporting systems display market information but do not perform all of the activities of a stock exchange. These amendments will allow the commission to regulate participants in these systems in the same way the commission regu- lates members of the exchanges. Currently, there are no systems operating in British Columbia. There is a new one just starting in Ontario.

We are anticipating that an expansion could take place to British Columbia, and what we're trying to do here is to be proactive. The member may look forward to

section 3 with respect to these quotation and trade reporting systems.

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6213 These amendments expand the commission's power to examine the registrants to see if they are complying with the rules of a quotation and trade reporting sys- tem. The commission currently has power to review registrant compliance with the rules of self-regulatory organizations and exchanges.

Section 1,

section 1 approved. On

section 2,

section 15. I. Chong: On

section 2. It speaks to the expenditure of funds for educational purposes. I'm just wondering about the purpose of having the use of those funds and what kinds of educational purposes or educating secu- rities those may be. If the minister could just clarify that for me, I'd be most appreciative. Hon. R. Thorpe: Just to make sure that we're clear on the record, the only funds that would be permitted for educational purposes are not funds that are derived from fees but, in fact, funds that are derived from fines that the commission develops.

What we are looking at here is to make sure that we have the opportunity to develop educational systems for seniors. In the past throughout many jurisdictions, including British Columbia and in certain communities throughout British Columbia, sometimes seniors have been targeted by investor schemes and programs. What we want to do in British Columbia is ensure that we take a proactive approach and get out into the communities, into the areas where we believe that some people may be targeted, and perform an educa- tional function for them and inform them of some of the pitfalls that they may face.

W e a l s o w a n t t o l o o k a t d e v e l o p i n g s o m e b a s i c programs on markets and financial matters in conjunc- tion with organizations like Junior Achievement, which the commission currently works with, but also with students in our school system so that they can have a better idea of how the money markets and financing work — in other words, broadening their educational experiences.

Section 2,

section 15, to

section 4,

section 40 inclu- sive approved. On

section 5,

part 12. I. Chong:

Section 5 deals with a matter that I think concerns many people and that, I guess, of late has been highlighted with the default of some of the corporations. That has to do with insider trading. I know I have received concerns from constituents about insider trading. I'm curious regarding

section 5. I'm wondering if the minister can explain exactly what this

section will do in terms of safeguarding against those kinds of activities. How might insider trading be more curtailed in the future? If he can just provide an explanation as to how sec- tion 5 is enabling this, I know my constituents would be much relieved. [1445] Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, this is a very, very important p a r t o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t i n s i d e r s r e p o r t a l l o f t h e i r transactions. Some insiders use financial instruments to hedge against any change in the value of the issue or securities while retaining ownership of those secu- rities and have not reported these transactions.

Al- though reporting them is in the spirit of the insider reporting requirements, it is not clearly defined. This amendment would clearly define those reporting re- quirements to make sure that insiders comply with an increasing amount of declaration on their transac- tions. This amendment will improve the transparency and will ensure that investors are receiving increas- ingly more and more accurate information on insider issues. Other jurisdictions plan to introduce similar re- quirements by rule.

We propose the act amendment because we do not have the authority in British Co- lumbia to do it by rule, and these act amendments are less complex than the proposed rules.

Section 5,

part 12, to

section 15,

section 167 inclu- sive approved. On

section 16,

section 183. I. Chong: On

section 16. I'm reading this, and again I'm seeking more clarification from the minister. It seems to be distinguishing that one segment or one class of registrants should have rules that are different from another class or segment of registrants. That's h o w i t i s s t a t e d . I ' m j u s t c u r i o u s . A g a i n , w h a t i s t h e intent or the reasoning behind having those differ- ences? Hon. R. Thorpe: The act now contemplates an employer-employee relationship between dealers and their salespersons. These amendments would allow salespersons to incorporate or operate as independent contractors, and we do have additional classes of those

definitions so that we can have a better handle on them, creating some flexibility for a definition and also in assuring people they have the choices and options they may want to pursue rather than just an employer- employee relationship.

Section 16,

section 183, and

section 17 approved. Title approved. Hon. R. Thorpe: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:48 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

6214 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 Report and Third Reading of Bills Bill 24, Securities Amendment Act, 2003, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. L. Reid: I call committee stage debate of Bill 16. Committee of the Whole House COALBED GAS ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 16; R. Stewart in the chair. The committee met at 2:50 p.m. On

section 1. J. MacPhail: Most of my discussion is going to come under

definitions. I want to start with a quote, if I may, from page 2 of the draft coalbed methane guide- lines in the Oil and Gas Commission. They're dated October 21, 2002. Here's what it says: "Coalbed methane projects are usually characterized by high upfront capital expenditures, relatively high operating costs and production rates that may be lower than many conventional natural gas projects. Consequently, where warranted and prudent, the commission will be flexible in accommodating coalbed methane developments to recognize these unique characteristics.

"At the same time, it is recognized that as coalbed methane projects go, they can have significant implications for the environment, local community and worker and public safety." That's out of the coalbed methane guidelines. It's around that I am going to explore some issues with the minister. Given that — and that's out of the Oil and Gas Commission — why is the minister pursuing coalbed methane production as vigorously as he is and, particularly, trying to do it as vigorously as he is by sorting out land issues with this legislation? Hon. R.

Neufeld: First, I'd like to introduce people that are with me: Barbara Thomson, senior legislative analyst, and Steve Roberts, assistant deputy minister of the new ventures branch. The answer to the question is that we're, in fact, pursuing coalbed methane in the province because it's a huge untapped resource. There's estimated to be about 90 trillion cubic feet of coalbed methane in the province, almost equal to what's assumed to be in the province in conventional natural gas of about 115 tril- lion cubic feet.

The member is right when she reads from the book that there are some serious issues we have to deal with as we deal with coalbed methane — t h e s a m e a s w e deal with the extraction of any other natural resource, specifically conventional natural gas or oil. That's why we are developing and are using the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act to make sure we do it in the safest possible manner, moving forward for all involved. J. MacPhail: Good. Those are some of the things I want to explore with the minister here.

It says from the draft guidelines, again, of the Oil and Gas Commission: "Since coalbed methane development is new to the province and coalbed methane wells have uncertain lives and gas production profiles, all project applica- tions submitted before December 31, 2003, may be ap- proved as experimental schemes." That's at page 6.

Then it goes on to say: "An experimental scheme is one that uses 'methods that are untried or unproved.' Experimental schemes offer the benefits of flexible well spacing and an extended period for confidentiality of well data." [1455] Conventional wells, as I understand it, are spaced about one per square mile, and I think the Oil and Gas Commission by this is suggesting that up to eight wells could be drilled per square mile. I understand that re- cently the minister has said he will only allow for four per square mile. Who will decide the density of wells? Hon. R.

Neufeld: An experimental project will be something where a company will be able to go and drill a number of wells, the spacing of which may not be what we will have when we have production wells. That's simply so they can find out if there is a commer- cial amount of coalbed methane in the coal seams. There will be smaller spacing for those small schemes, wherever they happen to be.

At the end of the day, the spacing for actual producing wells will be on a much larger basis, and that will be decided taking into ac- count what has historically been done in British Co- lumbia — one natural gas well per section, 640 acres. There's also the ability to have one oilwell on every 160 acres. J. MacPhail: I understand from the minister's meet- i n g l a s t w e e k i n H u d s o n ' s H o p e t h a t h e s a i d t h a t i t would be one per 160.

Now, I'm — what is it the minis- ter likes to call me? — an urban socialist, but I think 160 acres means a quarter mile, doesn't it, so that means there could be four per square mile. Yet Ben Jones, who owns the drilling company that will be do- ing this, admits the density would have to increase. What does the minister say to that? Hon. R. Neufeld: If she's spoken to Ben Jones, that's fine, and she puts that on the record.

What I said in Hudson's Hope was that obviously the company will have to do a project, and that means they're going to have to do a number of wells in an area that may have more dense spacing than one per 160 acres. At the end of the day, Mr. Jones has told us that he feels one well per 160 acres for production purposes would be suffi- cient. I committed to that in Hudson's Hope for that area. Remember, that is for farmland that's privately

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6215 held or farmland that's presently leased. That does not deal with Crown land. On Crown land we may make some other determinations at the end of the day, but we'll make that determination as the time comes along. J. MacPhail: Why does the minister distinguish between Crown land and private land? Hon. R. Neufeld: Simply because it's private land, and the people that were at the meeting and actually in the whole northeast, farmers, are used to having four wells per

section — not always — depending on whether there's oil on their land or not. So what I said was that it's one well per 160 acres, and it has to do with agricultural land. Of course, what happens is that people say: "Well, the land is cleared, and it's farmland. W e d o n ' t w a n t t o m a k e i t s o w e c a n ' t f a r m a n y m o r e . We understand that activity can take place and it can take place safely, but we don't want to have so many w e l l s t h a t w e c a n ' t f a r m . " T o g i v e t h e m s o m e a s s u r - ance, what I said is one well per quarter on private and leased farmland. J.

MacPhail: So there is the potential that there would be a different standard for Crown land. Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes. J. MacPhail: And I gather that different standard would be a greater density. Hon. R. Neufeld: Until we find out what's there, we don't know. [1500] J. MacPhail: During debate at second reading of this bill, the member for Cariboo South, from his posi- tion as then chair of the Government Caucus Commit- tee on Natural Resources, said a couple of things.

First, the member for Cariboo South said — and this was at second reading on this piece of legislation: "The mem- ber for North Vancouver–Seymour reminded me to comment to the people who might be listening to this debate tonight and who may be wondering why so few government members rise to debate Bill 16 and many other important bills at the House.

I guess my com- m e n t i s t h a t t h e m a i n r e a s o n b e h i n d t h a t i s t h e g o v - ernment side of the House talks through the subject at many, many caucus meetings." I appreciate that frankness, but this is the time when we actually — the public — get to see what the parliamentary debate is, and the legislative process ensures parliamentary democracy.

But everybody in caucus, I guess, gets to stand up and raise their views in a confidential meeting, and then perhaps there's no need, as far as the Liberal MLAs see, to explain to the House or to the citizens who elected us to the House just what it is the government is doing and why it's doing it. So I'm wondering, in the caucus discussions that the member for Cariboo South talked about, whether the issue about standards of private land versus public land was discussed. And was the issue around pro- ceeding with coalbed methane production at the expe- dited rate discussed? Hon. R.

Neufeld: We've had some discussions in our committees in regard to the development of coal- bed methane. It was announced — in fact, when I did my second open cabinet meeting — that we would move forward with it in a very public way and that we w a n t e d t o d o i t i n a s a f e m a n n e r . B u t w e w a n t e d t o have that opportunity in the province to develop this resource. We've also, through the ministry, had a committee go out — not of MLAs but of people within the minis- try.

In fact, I think they visited eight communities around the province to talk about issues surrounding coalbed methane and mineral extraction to have people feel a little bit more comfortable with it. I think it's a good move. It's a move that govern- ment should have made a long time ago, but I decided within the ministry that it's time we went out and started talking to people about how we do use this product, how it is positive, how it can create economic development, how it can be done safely and that it can provide long-term, well-paying jobs for people. So that's the process we've taken to talk to people.

I've talked about it across the whole province. I've talked about it in open cabinet. I've had different speaking occasions where I've talked about it in differ- ent places in the province, so it certainly hasn't been a secret. It's been out there for quite a while, and in fact, coalbed methane development started before…. Actu- ally, there were some wells drilled before we even got into government. It had happened before. J. MacPhail: Well, did the government caucus make a report on their findings, and would the minis- ter release that? Hon. R.

Neufeld: Actually, I think the member is quite well aware of the processes around the govern- ment caucus committee. If you're trying to say that the government caucus doesn't care or doesn't know, that's unfair. The mem- bers that are on the Natural Resources committee actu- ally have had a number of presentations made to them. People in our caucus are, I would say, relatively com- fortable. We make sure that happens within our cau- cus. No, I don't have a report that they went out and m a d e .

W e h a v e a d i r e c t i o n t h a t t h i s g o v e r n m e n t t o o k that we want to actually develop our natural resources in an environmentally sound way so that we can actu- ally benefit in the province and can continue to have health care and education well into the future. J. MacPhail: Well, I'm not sure why the minister gave such a rhetorical answer. Was it to avoid answer- ing the question? It was the then chair of the Natural Resources committee that brought up the fact in this

6216 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 House on the public record that there's been many, many caucus meetings on this. The minister in re- sponse said that the government caucus committee — government caucus committee — went out and held hearings on this. [1505] Either tell us what happened in caucus or release the report of these government caucus committee hear- ings. Tax dollars are used to travel the province to hear these matters. I'm not quite sure why the minister sug- gested any intent other than I'd like to see the report from the government caucus. Will he release it? Hon. R.

Neufeld: Let's not confuse it. I don't have any problem releasing to the member the minutes that were kept or the notes that were kept from the eight or so meetings that we had around the province. You're exactly right. That costs the taxpayers money. I think it was a useful process. I don't have that information with me today, but we will get that information to the mem- ber. J. MacPhail: Thank you, and that's why debate is so good in this House. All the government caucus com- mittee meetings minutes I will expect, and I thank the minister for… Hon. R. Neufeld: You're misinterpreting. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry.

You said…. Just a second. The minister said: "I don't have any trouble giving the minutes of the eight or so meetings that the govern- ment caucus" — public hearings that the government caucus — "had." Well, luckily it's recorded. Hon. R. Neufeld: It is lucky that it is recorded. First off, there are two processes. We have processes within our caucus and within our caucus committees where we discussed these things. We had another process besides that, where we went to eight communities — not MLAs, but staff.

People from the Ministry of En- ergy and Mines went around to eight communities in the province to deliver some of our proposals — what we would like to do not just in coalbed methane but in mineral development and oil and gas development around the province. They were informative sessions. That's exactly what I said I would give to the member. That's not a government caucus committee. That is a group of people who work for Ministry of Energy and Mines, from my ministry, who actually went out and had those eight meetings around the province. I will get that information for the member.

The government caucus committees — I'm sorry, no. J. MacPhail: I guess the minister can understand my confusion. My question was about government caucus hearings, and he gave that answer. Why can't the public have the government caucus meeting re- cord? It's made with tax dollars. They're meetings. We can't have the caucus meetings. Why are those minutes or activities secret? Hon. R. Neufeld: They're no more secret than when she was in government. I can't remember…. Let's see.

I was in here in 1991, elected along with her, and I cannot remember for the life of me one time when that government distributed any kind of a report out of their caucus. There were a few leaked. There was one leaked to us that said you were going to sell B.C. Hy- dro and B.C. Rail and you name it. That was leaked to us by someone from their own caucus, but she knows as well as I do that those discussions are in caucus with caucus members talking about these issues. They've got nothing to do with what we're talking about today. In fact, Mr.

Chair, I would suggest that we should get back to the bill — to what we're talking about in the bill, which is ownership of coalbed methane. J. MacPhail: I'm actually debating issues that were brought up by his members at second reading, and this is the place to explore them. I'm not absolutely sure why the minister is somehow suggesting that govern- ment caucus committee hearings using tax dollars are secretive. It was the Premier himself that made a com- mitment to a new way of doing business. That's why the government caucus chairs are paid out of vote 1 — the actual legislative chamber vote.

That's why the Premier turns to these every time he possibly can to say: "I've got government caucus committees out there being open and accountable." This minister stands up and tells me how dare I ask for the activities of the government caucus committee. Let's be clear. Government caucus committees are a creation of this government. It's the first and only time public resources from vote 1 have been used for private government caucus activities. Even Alberta doesn't do that. Even Alberta pays for its government caucus committees out of its own pocket and releases their report.

It's only this government that keeps the activi- ties secret. [1510] Let me quote again from the member for Cariboo South — what he went on to say in second reading: "As chair of the Natural Resources committee, my commit- tee and I have had many meetings with ministry staff — the experts in the field of methane gas — and they've been under question many, many times. It is my belief that the government caucus is well aware of the exploration procedures, and its liabilities are well documented." Maybe I can ask the minister this.

He committed to releasing the minutes and the recommendations of the hearings and the consultation his ministry staff did. Does it also, then, mean he'll release the consultations his ministry staff did with the government caucus committee? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, I'm going to say they're two separate, distinct things. Ministry staff have met with those interested in the House about coalbed methane. That's kind of not a bad process. I think if there is some interest shown, we should actually have the experts deliver that information. In fact, we've of-

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6217 fered a number of times to make presentations to the Leader of the Opposition on different things, even on this bill. That's what I'm talking about. We've done that. I don't know what this has to do with ownership of coalbed methane, to be perfectly honest. What we do is that we will have meetings, and people can come and ask some questions. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

They can ask all the questions they want, and we don't keep a written record of all of those questions and those meetings, the same as I'm sure the member didn't in her caucus committee when she was in government. She knows full well what I'm saying. She's just try- ing to do I'm not exactly sure what, but we'll carry on with the questioning. The Chair: It is the Chair's hope that we will return to debate over

section 1 of Bill 16. J. MacPhail: In fact, we're talking about coalbed gas, we're talking about disposition, we're talking about natural gas, we're talking about natural gas ten- ure, we're talking about parcel, and we're talking about surface owner. Could everybody just settle down? My questions are relevant. I'll tell you something. This minister…. I love it. I love it again. I don't know how many times, but it ac- tually is sinking in. This minister excels at this. He goes: "Well, we're no worse than the previous govern- ment." That's what his refuge is in terms of his re- sponse.

He campaigned over and over and over again on a new era and saying things would be so much bet- ter. In fact, the previous government didn't have secret government caucus committees paid by the public purse. They didn't. If meetings were held where minis- try staff attended, there were written presentations that were made public. That's what the thing was. I'm sorry. I think the minister has been hoisted on his own pe- tard.

First of all, he says: "Oh no, government caucus meeting discussions aren't going to be released, but my ministry staff's consultations are going to be released." Then, when it turns out the ministry staff have had consultations with the government caucus, he says: "Oh no, I didn't mean that." Interjection. J. MacPhail: The Minister of Deregulation over there is finally contributing to the debate. I didn't think he was still with us in a way that means…. I know he's always been present in the House, but it's nice to see that he actually has an opinion on something.

It doesn't actually have to be a helpful opinion, but he's got something on that. Again, here we have a secretive government. Now, I do know that the member for Cariboo South has been removed as chair of the Government Caucus Commit- tee on Natural Resources. I hope it didn't have any- thing to do with what I thought was a frank and honest contribution to the debate at second reading. Can the minister elaborate on just what the liabili- ties are for coalbed methane extraction? Hon. G. Cheema: Can I have leave to make an in- troduction? Leave granted. [1515] Introductions by Members Hon. G.

Cheema: Today I have the pleasure of intro- ducing students from Boundary Park Elementary School in the great riding of Surrey–Panorama Ridge. They are accompanied by their teacher Ms. Rosenthal, Alex Dewar, Sherry Crippen, Garry Jones, Kelly Jowett and Christina Unrau. These constituents of mine are in grades 5 and 6 and show a keen interest in the democratic process. I wish them well in their studies and anticipate some of them may run for a public office one day. Hopefully, they will wait until I'm ready to give up my seat. Would the House please make them very welcome. Debate Continued Hon. R.

Neufeld: There are some environmental aspects around conventional natural gas, conventional oil, coalbed methane — almost any natural resource extraction. We have environmental impacts just driv- ing our cars to work, driving to the Legislature or fly- ing an airplane back and forth from Vancouver to here. W h a t w e ' r e s a y i n g i s t h a t t h e r e a r e , i n f a c t , s o m e i m - pacts environmentally. The Petroleum and Natural Gas Act, which has been in place in the province for quite a long time, will actually govern how we drill for coal- bed methane. J.

MacPhail: The member for Cariboo South also noted that Hat Creek coalfield is in his riding, that one of the reasons for this bill is B.C. Hydro has ownership of the Hat Creek coalfield and that a lack of certainty about the ownership of the methane in the coalfield has hindered development of that methane. How will this bill assist in ensuring a definition that will ensure the development of the Hat Creek site? Hon. R.

Neufeld: Actually, across the whole prov- ince, not just across Hat Creek, what we are doing is putting into legislation what has been policy for some 25 years — that coalbed gas is natural gas and not part of the coal. What this does is establish ownership for coalbed methane in legislation. J. MacPhail: My next question is a historical ques- tion. Does Suncor still hold mining or drilling rights at Hat Creek? Hon. R. Neufeld: We'll research that. I don't know whether Suncor still has any rights that are available to

6218 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 them in Hat Creek. There is a sunset clause to those rights when they do buy them where they expire. J. MacPhail: I noted in my research that Suncor had drilling plans in 1998, so that's why I'm asking the questions about whether those are still alive. Has the minister met with the Bonaparte Indian band regarding the extraction of coalbed methane on their traditional territory? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, the ministry has contacted all the first nations in the area of the Hat Creek. J.

MacPhail: What was the Bonaparte Indian band's position on extraction of coalbed methane? Hon. R. Neufeld: There were numerous meetings held with bands. At the end of the day, I don't have that information with me — how they felt about it. We can find out what that is. They may have wanted us to keep that confidential. I'm not sure. [1520] J. MacPhail: No, they don't. They made it public that their long-term plan for coalbed methane is to leave it in the ground. The reason why I'm asking these questions is because this bill is supposed to bring clar- ity and certainty to land use for coalbed methane ex- traction.

That's why I was asking about Suncor. These arose out of points that the member for Cariboo South made. That's why I asked about Suncor, and that's why I asked about how it could possibly bring certainty when indeed the Bonaparte Indian band — Hat Creek is on their traditional territory — say they're not going to allow extraction of coalbed methane. Has the minis- ter met with ranchers in the Hat Creek area? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, the ministry people have met with the ranchers in the Hat Creek area also. The purpose of the bill is to establish ownership, which used to be in policy.

We're putting it into legisla- tion. That is not to get certainty on the land base all the time. Obviously, with first nations there are treaties. The member knows quite well there are treaties to be done all over British Columbia. We move forward in a lot of areas in the province with natural resource ex- traction taking into account, consulting with and work- ing with first nations. Those that want to produce the coalbed methane would have an obligation to consult with first nations also, as does the government.

What this does is bring clarity to the ownership of it, and that has been part of the problem up until now. J. MacPhail: Yes, and that's why we're discussing this. That's why we're having this debate. What was the response to this type of land use by the ranchers in the Hat Creek area? Hon. R. Neufeld: No different than the landowners in Hudson's Hope or the landowners in northeastern British Columbia north of Fort St. John or around Fort N e l s o n o r D a w s o n C r e e k . T h e y w a n t t o k n o w w h a t impact it will obviously have on their land base.

The ministry people are continuing to work with those people to make sure that we take into account their concerns and that we try to deal with them in the fair- est manner possible, remembering that we want to extract the coalbed methane so that those same people can continue to enjoy health care and education in Brit- ish Columbia. J. MacPhail: The ranchers in Hat Creek raised some of the same concerns as the people of Hudson's Hope? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm not sure. I wasn't in Hat Creek. I was in Hudson's Hope. There were staff who went to Hat Creek. J.

MacPhail: Yes, I know, and that's why staff are with the minister. Could he consult with them and answer my question, please? Hon. R. Neufeld: I a s s u m e t h e y h a d m a n y o f t h e same concerns, such as spacing and how you deal with water. Those are two of the major concerns regardless of where you go in the province. They would have those concerns. J.

MacPhail: An update prepared by a geologist in the Ministry of Energy and Mines in June of 2001 noted that in the Hat Creek coalfield, "the low rank of the coal means that the generation of thermogenic methane will be small to nil, and the ability of the coal to absorb methane will also be low." I guess what the report also said was that the good thing about this coalfield is that it's so large, the small concentration of gas is offset by the size of the coalbed.

Can the minister tell the House just how many wells would have to be drilled to recover the necessary amount of gas to make exploration economically viable in Hat Creek? Hon. R. Neufeld: If the whole basin were totally developed on 160-acre spacing, it would have actually 250 wells. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. Was that the basin of Hat Creek? The minister is nodding yes. The member for Victoria–Beacon Hill also entered the debate at second reading to claim that the devel- opment of coalbed methane on Vancouver Island will be a big creator of jobs.

How many jobs does the minis- ter anticipate to be created with any development of coalbed methane on Vancouver Island? Of course, Vancouver Island is one of the areas where certainty of ownership is promoted by this bill. [1525] Hon. R. Neufeld: As in Hat Creek, in Hudson's Hope or on Vancouver Island, until the companies get some sense of being able to drill some wells and get some sense of how much coalbed methane is actually

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6219 in the coal seams, it's hard to put an estimate on that. I can tell the member that the communities of Fort St. John and Dawson Creek, to a degree, and the commu- nities of Taylor and Fort Nelson actually have thou- sands of jobs in those communities that are related to the extraction of conventional natural gas and oil. Our economy in the northeast is actually doing fairly well because of the activity of the oil and gas industry.

Of course, that isn't to say that the activity of the agricultural industry and the forest industry aren't important, because they are just as important. To put the number of jobs on it, I can't…. I'm not going to stand in the House and take a wild guess at it until we even know what's there. At the end of the day, they may drill it and find out there's not enough there to produce. It's exactly the same as conventional natural gas. Companies buy the right to drill in different areas.

They don't know how much is going to be there, but they'll go out and drill it and find out whether it's actually commercially viable. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. J. MacPhail: That's fair enough. I understand what the minister is saying. I was just wondering why the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill would make the claim that coalbed methane will be a big creator of jobs on Vancouver Island. I was wondering on what he was basing that, because I agree with what the minister is saying.

The minister and many in his caucus, including the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill, have claimed that coalbed methane is an alternate fuel because it burns cleaner than natural gas. I'm wondering whether the minister can tell the House if the burning of methane, whether it be coalbed or natural gas, contributes to the accumulation of greenhouse gas. If it does, is there a difference in how the two contribute to the accumula- tion of greenhouse gas? Hon. R. Neufeld: Coalbed methane and natural gas will both put into the atmosphere the same kinds of greenhouse gases, yes. J.

MacPhail: I expect that what the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill meant to say was that coalbed methane is a cleaner fuel because it is a natural gas. It's not an alternate fuel. What I understand alternate fuels to mean is those that are typically alternative to fossil fuels, but he probably meant a cleaner fuel. The minister says this bill is about getting certainty on Vancouver Island, about who owns the coalbed methane.

The member for Victoria–Beacon Hill made some grand statements about job and wealth creation from coalbed methane on the Island, but I'm sure the minister will know of the estimates of the potential coalbed methane. Those estimates are about 90 trillion cubic feet for the whole province. He will also know from his own reports that about 20 percent of that amount will actually be recoverable, and he will probably also know that of that 90 trillion cubic feet, 74 percent is in the Peace River. Can the minister tell the House just how much coalbed meth- ane there is estimated to be on Vancouver Island? Hon. R.

Neufeld: I didn't finish that last question as thoroughly as I should have. I think the member was talking about it as cleaner because it doesn't have H2S in it. Conventional natural gas has lots of H2S in it that has to be stripped out of the natural gas. I'm sure he was referring to that, because that is not in coalbed methane. On Vancouver Island, the estimates are 1.2 trillion cubic feet of CBM. [1530] J. MacPhail: That's about 1.4 percent of the total in the province, and it looks like only about 200 billion cubic feet are actually recoverable.

As I understand it, much of this coalbed methane gas is situated directly under the cities of Nanaimo and Comox and may, for that reason, not be recoverable. Before we conclude with this section, I just wanted to note that by comparison, the Duke Energy main line moves about 1.8 billion cubic feet of natural gas each day from northeast B.C. to the border at Sumas. Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, the Duke Energy pipeline from the northeast part of the province delivers 1.1 trillion cubic feet of conventional natural gas on a yearly basis. Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved. On

section 5. J. MacPhail:

Section 5 is entitled "Minister may issue natural gas tenure of coalbed gas rights." It reads: "Under

section 72 (2) of the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act, the minister may issue a natural gas tenure of coalbed gas rights to any person with respect to speci- fied coal deposits underlying a parcel." Under

section 5, how does this bill address subsur- face ownership issues on Vancouver Island? I'm think- ing specifically on the old Esquimalt and Nanaimo lands — E&N. Hon. R. Neufeld: The member is correct. There are a lot of titles on Vancouver Island, and in fact, there are titles to the ownership of minerals, petroleum and natural gas, specifically, on the railroad grant lands and some of the land that was granted prior to the 1900s. What you have to do is actually research the titles. The ministry is researching titles on Vancouver Island.

It's a fairly extensive job, but they are researching it to try and determine where actual ownership is, whether it's with the province or with the landowner. Or it could be with the proponent that's purchased the right to drill in some part of the province. J. MacPhail: Do we know who owns the subsurface rights on the old E&N lands?

6220 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, I'm advised that…. I mean, we're talking about 100 years of history and some records not being as good as others. If you de- termine that the surface owner owns the coal, they don't own the coalbed gas. J. MacPhail: Yes, I understand that, except the min- ister is saying this bill will bring certainty to those kinds of questions.

In fact, that's the purpose of this bill. [1535] I can understand this government wanting to send a symbol to the mining industry that the province is open for business, but what I'm trying to find out is exactly what this bill does to alleviate existing claims on Vancouver Island. Hon. R. Neufeld: We are trying to establish clarity to the ownership of coalbed gas across the whole prov- ince, not just on Vancouver Island. The E&N Railway grants obviously make it a little more difficult on Van- couver Island, and there are also some in the Kootenays.

But it's a component of clearing up titles on Vancouver Island and who owns what. At the end of the day, if someone owns the natural gas rights, they own the coalbed gas. If they just own the coal, they don't own the coalbed gas. J. MacPhail: I'm aware that land ownership issues around Vancouver Island certainly require certainty, but what other areas of the province will be affected by this legislation? Hon. R. Neufeld: The entire province. J. MacPhail: Are there other issues that are as con- tentious as Vancouver Island? Hon. R.

Neufeld: Actually, the most, shall I say, difficult places would be Vancouver Island and the coal lands in the Kootenays, because of the CPR land grants at the turn of the century. J. MacPhail: Under

section 5, the

section we're de- bating — "Minister may issue natural gas tenure of coalbed gas rights" — does the minister have a duty to report to the public, either through the local newspaper or by the erection of a sign, the disposition of that land? Hon. R. Neufeld: All the land sales are published monthly in the Gazette. J. MacPhail: I'm aware that in 1986 the Social Credit government passed the Petroleum and Natural Gas (Vancouver Island Railway Lands) Act, and that act required public reporting of disposition to the local community. Is that still in effect? Hon. R. Neufeld: As I'm told, the act is still in ef- fect.

In fact, it has only been used for two parcels, and that was for British Petroleum — I believe the member is right — in 1986. That was brought forward, and the act was used to say they had the rights to drill for the natural gas.

Section 5 approved. [1540] On

section 6. J. MacPhail: Sorry, Mr. Chair. Let me just read the title of this section. It says, "No compensation or right of action" — basically the principle this government is taking on pretty much everything. It says: "A person has no right of action and must not commence or main- tain proceedings, as a result of the enactment of this Act or the exercise by the minister of powers referred to in

section 5 or 7, (

a) to claim damages or compensa- tion of any kind from the government, or (

b) to obtain a declaration that damages or compensation are payable by the government." It's becoming a standard clause. This clause really protects the government from a person who may seek compensation due to disposition of tenure or as a result o f m e t hane v e nt i ng . I t i s what I hav e re f e rre d t o i n d e - bate as a CYA clause. What's the purpose of this section? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm informed…. It's not expro- priation. We're just confirming and defining to say that that coalbed methane is a natural gas.

If someone out there has and can confirm with the government that they actually own the petroleum and natural gas rights, this doesn't take anything away from them. They actually own it. But all it does is confirm what's been the practice and what's been policy for the past 25 years. So what it says is, to the coal owner: "You don't own the coalbed gas." J. MacPhail: Then let me ask this question. What protection does an individual landowner have if their property is damaged as a result of coalbed methane extraction or exploration? Hon. R.

Neufeld: There's actually a process that has to happen when rights are sold and a company pur- chases those rights to drill for coalbed methane. We'll use that as an example. That doesn't mean they can just go out and start drilling for coalbed methane. There's a process that is put in place. In fact, on the title, when they bid for the right, there will be rules and regula- tions put on, caveats, maybe some special things that are on there, so they know it basically in a broad sense before they buy it. The second

part is that they would have to go to the Oil and Gas Commission to get permission to get a well licence to go out and drill. Part of that process is that the Oil and Gas Commission and the proponent have to deal with first nations issues. They also have to deal with the landowner issues and actually go to the landowner and make some kind of deal. This is com- monly done all over northeastern B.C. where we do conventional natural gas and oil well drilling. In fact, I

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6221 believe most people that have gas wells on their land get probably an average of $6,000 a year — somewhere in that neighbourhood — for the right to use that small portion of land, although it may be larger in some ar- eas, depending on how the private land owner can deal with the proponent. J. MacPhail: So given that, will the Oil and Gas Commission be in charge of regulating this, or will it be an industry-led practices regime? Hon. R. Neufeld: It's all regulated through the Oil and Gas Commission. J. MacPhail: Now, I'm wondering….

We did dis- cuss in estimates the Oil and Gas Commission's record of compliance for 2002. The minister and I debated that. There was a 44 percent increase in non- compliance of water regulations, and investigations had fallen by two-thirds. The minister did explain that. But I'm looking to the minister now to see what guar- antees are there in regard to the safety of landowners and the environment. [1545] Hon. R. Neufeld: The Oil and Gas Commission, as the regulator, has the responsibility to regulate the in- dustry. There is a set of regulations, and as I said, the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act applies.

They also have the responsibility to make sure that the environment is being monitored and that all the things that are on the permit are actually being adhered to. As the member noted, in some cases it isn't so. I guess it's like getting a speeding ticket once in a while. You have made a mistake. There are actually regulations within the ministry that if it is a serious mistake. They can shut the operation down, carte blanche — that quick.

If it's not serious, if it's minor in some way — what they call "determined minor" — they will ask for compliance to actually make sure that whatever was being done wrong is actually looked after in a satisfactory way to the Oil and Gas Commis- sion. There are some pretty stringent rules. I just want to go back to the oil and gas compliance review. Actually, this was a compliance review done with Water, Land and Air Protection, Sustainable Re- source Management, the Oil and Gas Commission and the Ministry of Energy and Mines.

What they did and what they do is go across the whole northeast, because that's where the drilling takes place, and they actually go to different places and see if they're living up to what they should be living up to. I just want to say a few things into the record. Stream crossings were 93 percent compliance; 96 per- cent compliance with well sites; specialty wastes, 100 percent compliant; forestry, 96 percent compliant; gravel, 100 percent compliant. The major problems — and the member is right and, rightfully so, should bring them forward — were identified for two activities.

One was sewage manage- ment and disposal, 62 percent. That's definitely not acceptable, and the Oil and Gas Commission has clamped down on that. The second one is water usage by camp rigs and seismic, 56 percent. It didn't have to do with water disposal. I'm not trying to say what they did was right, but it didn't have to do with water dis- posal or any of those kinds of things. I don't want to get people to think that the compa- nies weren't adhering to what they had to do with wa- ter that was produced from wells. Actually, I read the whole report.

There were quite a few places where the water hauler for the rig — that means the truck that goes out and loads water in some river or something and hauls it to the rig, because they use a fair amount of water when they're drilling for natural gas — didn't have the permit with him or her in the truck. That's a minor infraction. Another one, which is more serious, is that they were going to a place where they were taking water out of creeks that had beaver d a m s o n t h e m . T h a t ' s a n o - n o . T h e i n d u s t r y k n o w s that. What they had done was actually drained some beaver dams.

That was taken care of, and you can't do that anymore. It ranges from those kinds of things. A lot of it was: "I don't have a permit in the truck," or "I didn't have a permit to actually go get the water." J. MacPhail: What's the view of the minister on surface owners being at risk and/or surface owners having to absorb risk? Hon. R. Neufeld: Risk is a pretty broad definition. Maybe she could define it a little bit more. What do you mean by risk? J. MacPhail: Sure, I'd be happy to.

For instance, does the Oil and Gas Commission collect a security deposit from the owner of the rights to coalbed meth- ane that perhaps would cover cleanup of the land, en- vironmental impacts — something like that? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, the Oil and Gas Commission collects a fee for every well drilled. I believe it's $7,800 a well. Part of that goes to first nations to help with capacity-building to deal with issues in regard to oil and gas, and the other portion is held within the Oil and Gas Commission to actually operate the commis- sion and to look after the operations of the commission. [1550] J.

MacPhail: As I understand it, we're entering new territory here as a province where the surface rights and the subsurface rights are being separated, or the coalbed rights and the coalbed methane rights are be- ing separated. There's different ownership. I'm won- dering whether there's any sort of security deposit taken from the coalbed methane operators that will save the surface landowners harmless from cleanup costs or environmental impact costs. Hon. R. Neufeld: The member is right: there are times when oil and gas companies actually don't live

6222 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 up to their responsibilities and their agreements with landowners and with the province. There are, I believe, one dozen wells that are what we call orphan wells in the province. It's actually the responsibility of the Oil and Gas Commission and the government to make sure those orphan wells are looked after in a proper way if they are to be, as they say, put to bed or the land reclaimed. Part of the permit is that the land has to be reclaimed to the same condition it was prior to the drilling. Those kinds of things are in place.

Part of the $7,500 goes to that. We're actually developing, prior to it getting to be a problem in the province, an orphan well fund so that we can actually have that fund paid for by the oil and gas industry to make sure we have that funding mov- ing forward to look after any places where there may be some damage that hasn't been looked after properly. But at the end of the day, the province is held liable for those 12 sites today.

Section 6 approved. On

section 7. J. MacPhail:

Section 7 is entitled "Exception for safety reasons." It says: "If the minister is satisfied that it is necessary to do so for safety reasons, the minister, may, by regulation, authorize coal owners or the hold- ers of crown coal dispositions to vent or dispose of coal bed gas as directed." I understand that this clause is permissive, but I've also, in my research and talking to people and receiv- ing correspondence from people…. People are very concerned about methane venting. How frequently does the minister expect this clause to be utilized? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, this is for underground coalmines.

We actually have, I believe, one in the prov- i n c e t o d a y . T h a t ' s i n S t r a t h c o n a P a r k — Quinsam. What they have to do is vent the coalbed methane so they don't have an explosion in the mine and kill min- ers down below. That's the safety reason. Actually, coal m e t h a n e , o r t h e g a s , i s l i g h t e r t h a n a i r , s o i t v e n t s u p fairly quickly. J. MacPhail: I assume by the minister's treatment of my question…. Methane venting is controversial, isn't it?

The reason I say that is I would expect that the min- istry would try to use or permit a minimum amount of methane venting. Hon. R. Neufeld: The member is correct. The minis- try doesn't, I'm informed, want to just have all of it vented. If there is some other way of capturing the gas and removing it out of the underground mine rather than just venting it to the airshed, that's preferred. That all depends on, I guess, how much gas is actually in the coal. [1555] J. MacPhail: This

section allows for the minister to do this by regulation, so how will those regulations occur? What process is the minister going to engage to make regulations for methane venting? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm informed that would be in the mine health and safety code. And actually, maybe a little further to that, it's been there for quite a long time, so it's not…. Quinsam has been operating for a while, and there have been other underground coalmines over the years in the province, so there was a need for it. But as I said earlier, we don't want to vent all of it if we can possibly capture it. J.

MacPhail: So the regulations for methane venting are already in place, and they're the ones that will stand? Hon. R. Neufeld: The answer is yes, and from here, we're not trying that the minister takes that away from the mine health and safety code. It's for some other reasons. J. MacPhail: Sorry, Mr. Chair. I just missed that last…. Hon. R. Neufeld: This section, I'm informed, is really not to take anything away — the minister taking any right away from what's actually already in place with the mine health and safety code.

What it does is it doesn't prevent someone with ownership from not having to deal with the venting of coalbed gas. J. MacPhail: I'm just hoping, and what I'll be watching for is to see whether the regulations that have been in place forever are modern enough to deal with an expansion of methane coal production. That's where I was coming from on it. The minister said in second reading of this act that he's learned from the experience of the United States. Venting is quite frequent in the United States, and that's where I got my feeling, my bent, that it was con- troversial.

How will he apply what he's learned from the United States to protect against the destruction that occurs where venting occurs? That's what I meant when I wanted him to explore with me how he's mod- ernizing the methane venting regulations. Hon. R. Neufeld: I might not have been as clear on this as I should have been. This is not to develop a set of regulations around the venting of coalbed gas. What it does say, by regulation, is that the minister can say to someone that the mine health and safety code must be abided by when you're venting gas from coal, because they don't own the gas.

What we have to do is tell them that they can actually vent it or collect it, whichever makes good sense. [1600] J. MacPhail: Okay. So this

section doesn't apply to the new producers of coalbed methane. I don't think the minister and I are talking at cross- purposes, but I want to be clear on this. My under-

THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6223 standing is that methane venting should be minimized or avoided as much as possible, and that if anything's to be learned from the U.S. experience, it's that. The minister said he learned from the U.S. experience, but that U.S. experience has taken place — we've learned from that — since those regulations were made to which the minister refers. What I'm looking for is reassurance that whatever regulations are in place around venting are modern enough and have been modernized enough to learn from the adverse experiences of the United States around this issue.

Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm not trying to be difficult ei- ther. We actually do want to do it in the best fashion we can, as we learned from the U.S. The mine health and safety code regulations will be updated all the time so that we actually use the best technology and the best available advice we can — up to date all the time. I agree with the member. We're not wanting to say y o u c a n v e n t a t a n y t i m e . W e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e i t ' s done in a safe manner. J. MacPhail: Yes, and one of the issues that occurs with methane venting is an exacerbation of greenhouse gas.

Has the minister consulted with the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection on trying to get agree- ment on what's an acceptable level of methane vent- ing? [G. Trumper in the chair.] Hon. R. Neufeld: Venting, as it's talked about in

section 7, has to do with underground coalmines. We only have one underground coalmine in the province, and that's, as I said earlier, Quinsam on Vancouver Island. They are already regulated under that mine health and safety code. I'm not exactly sure how much they vent at the present time, but the ministry could certainly get that information for the member. That's what this is to deal with, not with the pro- duction of coalbed methane. The production of coalbed methane is not to vent it. It's actually to capture it and sell it. J.

MacPhail: Yes, but it's also my understanding — and I could be off base — that even in the production of coalbed methane, there's venting as well. Am I off base on that? Hon. R. Neufeld: Actually not. It's flaring. There is a certain amount of flaring that takes place in the pro- duction or in the early stages of trying to find out, in a project, how much coalbed methane you actually have. So that's flared; it's not vented. J. MacPhail: Okay. Is there regulation around flar- ing and limits to flaring? Or will there be? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes.

In the Oil and Gas Commis- sion, there are regulations around flaring — how much you can flare, where you can flare and for how long. All those are in place, because there's flaring that hap- pens in other conventional and oil extraction.

Section 7 approved. Title approved. Hon. R. Neufeld: I move that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 4:04 p.m. The House resumed; J. Weisbeck in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills Bill 16, Coalbed Gas Act, reported complete with- out amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. G. Cheema: Can we call the Committee of Supply to debate the estimates of the Ministry of Sus- tainable Resource Management? Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; G. Trumper in the chair. The committee met at 4:05 p.m.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF SUSTAINABLE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT (continued) The Chair: We'd like to declare a ten-minute recess. The committee recessed from 4:06 p.m. to 4:19 p.m. [G. Trumper in the chair.] On vote 37: ministry operations, $90,001,000 (con- tinued). [1620] Hon. S. Hagen: This morning the member asked for a lot of information that I didn't have at the time, and I apologize for that. However, I do now have the information. I'm going to just read it into the record. I want to start with a correction.

The correct num- ber for the forest investment account, the amount of money we're spending on inventory collection, has been corrected to $22 million. The rest of these are questions raised during the debate. The number of relocations this past year of salmon farms is one. The number relocated since 1999 is five. Which sites are relocated? The Stolt farm from Eden Island to Humphrey Rock, and the tenure at Eden Island

6224 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2003 is no longer in place. I think I mentioned that this morn- ing. How many in Broughton will be relocated? Two currently in progress/completed; five not yet started. Ocean Falls record of consultation: the aboriginal interest assessment was completed. The agency fol- lowed the aboriginal interest assessment procedures that were in place at the time, which I'm filing. Omega has applied to a conversion of their existing licence of occupation for the fish hatchery site to a lease.

This request has been referred to the Heiltsuk first nation and will be assessed in accordance with the new provincial consultation policy that was released in October of 2002. The Humphrey Rock–Gilford Island record of con- sultation — if you'll forgive me for not listing the names. Eden Island was identified for relocation due to being within one kilometre of a first nation reserve and being subject to severe weather patterns. Referrals for the Humphrey Rock site were sent to all of the first nations in the area and the tribal council, the MTTC, on April 10, 2001. Responses were received from all.

An open house to discuss siting impacts was offered via the MTTC. This was declined. A public open house w a s h e l d i n A l e r t B a y o n J u n e 2 0 , 2 0 0 1 . M a n y o f t h e MTTC hereditary chiefs did attend. Department of Fisheries and Oceans staff were in attendance. All in- formation relating to Land Act tenure siting was con- sidered during the adjudication. All information gath- ered through the open house process was shared with provincial and federal agencies.

It is our understanding that after the Land Act offer for tenure, DFO conducted separate first nation consul- tations via the CEAA process. This included meeting or attempting to meet with the Gilford band on Gilford Island. The CEAA process is complete, and a positive result was given. I am also giving the member opposite the aborigi- nal interest assessment, to say that that was completed, and also a copy of the siting requirements — which I think you may have had, because they're on our web- site — the coordinated compliance and enforcement agreement, and the consultation guidelines.

I also have some numbers with regard to the scien- tific positions, and I'll also give this sheet to the mem- ber. In scientific positions at the end of '02-03, we had 388 positions. The reductions that took place were 54, which is a 14 percent reduction. In '03-05, we now have 334 scientific positions, and it's broken down to LSOs, hydrologists, biologists and scientific technical officers. I'm pleased to give all of these over to the member. [1625] J. MacPhail: Thank you very much. I appreciate those, and I'll examine them when we adjourn for to- day.

While we're still on the issue of tenure, I want to talk about the effects of the government's decisions as they relate to how they consult. As I understand it, there are several methods by which this government consults local governments, first nations and citizens. I want to explore the situation that's been reported of a citizen and the issue of tenure. I'm referring to the land and forest situation…. No, no, I'm sorry. That's second.

I want to go over, first of all, the situation in May of 2002, when a local businessman in Victoria was told t h a t h e m u s t v a c a t e a p i e c e o f l a n d o n V i c t o r i a ' s h a r - bour. The business was located in this spot for 18 years before Land and Water B.C. decided to sell the land. It is reported that Land and Water B.C. never asked if the man wished to buy the land, nor was he informed when he renewed his tenure earlier in the year that Land and Water B.C. was negotiating to sell the piece of property. That's one situation. I want to ask how that matter had been resolved.

It was reported publicly very recently. Hon. S. Hagen: I'm not aware of the details of this piece of property, but apparently the file is fairly old. I'm more than happy to give the member a detailed briefing note on that. My understanding is that any of the deals that Land and Water B.C. does are subject to the ombudsman's review, and if there was anything t h a t w a s n ' t d o n e p r o p e r l y , I ' m s u r e t h a t w o u l d h a v e come to light. I'm more than happy to provide a very detailed briefing note on the file. J. MacPhail: Yes.

The report on it was May 25, 2002 — the Les Leyne column out of the Times Colonist . There hadn't been any update in the last three or four months on this matter. Is the minister saying that the man has the right to go to the ombudsman, or is it at the ombudsman? Hon. S. Hagen: He has the right to go to the om- budsman. J. MacPhail: I also want to explore the situation of Lannan forest. The Lannan forest is a 16-hectare prop- erty alongside Crown Isle Golf Course in the min

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0410pm 07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0410pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2d6822d55eb2580cbffb9198a144bfa669fd4082

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