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September 26, 2017

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2017-Sep-26 (PDF)

L097 - Tue 26 Sep 2017 / Mar 26 sep 2017

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 26 September 2017 Mardi 26 septembre 2017

Orders of the Day

Representation Statute Law Amendment Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne la représentation électorale

Introduction of Visitors

Edward Havrot

Oral Questions

School facilities

Northern Ontario

Government advertising

Government advertising

Taxation

School facilities

Child care

Taxation

Horse racing industry

Public transit

Hospital funding

Long-term care

Infrastructure program funding

Taxation

Members’ Statements

Amanda Brodhagen

Consideration of Bill 6

Agnes Devlin

Busting Out

GO Transit

5aab TV

Victim Services Leeds & Grenville

Royal Canadian Navy

Wiarton Willie

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Government Agencies

Introduction of Bills

Domestic and Sexual Violence Protection Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur la protection contre la violence familiale et sexuelle

Protecting Vulnerable Road Users Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur la protection des usagers de la route vulnérables

Motions

Appointment of temporary Financial Accountability Officer

Petitions

Automotive dealers

Employment standards

Wasaga Beach

Long-term care

Energy storage

Anti-smoking initiatives for youth

GO Transit

Government advertising

Privatisation des biens publics

Hospital funding

Organ donation

GO Transit

Environmental protection

Orders of the Day

Building Better Communities and Conserving Watersheds Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 visant à bâtir de meilleures collectivités et à protéger les bassins hydrographiques

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Representation Statute Law Amendment Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne la représentation électorale

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 21, 2017, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 152,

An Act to amend the Representation Act, 2015 and certain other Acts / Projet de loi 152, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2015 sur la représentation électorale et d’autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Timmins–James Bay.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Mr. Speaker, I wish I could say I’m really glad to take

part in this debate. This had the potential, I believe, to be a really progressive act for northern Ontarians, specifically for First Nations. Instead, we’re ending up with something that pleases some of the people but doesn’t please the people we were trying to serve by creating two Far North ridings where First Nations would be in the majority.

Before I go there, I just want to go through a bit of what has happened in northern Ontario electorally in regard to ridings over the last number of years that I’ve been a member. When I was first elected in 1990, there were 15 ridings in northern Ontario. That served northern Ontario well enough in the sense there were five additional members than we have now and it allowed for constituencies that were a little bit more manageable as far as size. Because there were an extra five ridings, we were able to divvy up northern Ontario, and it was a little bit more manageable. There were still some very large ridings. Kenora, for example, was a pretty large riding, and so was Cochrane North.

My point is that we had 15 ridings. Along came Mike Harris, through his Common Sense Revolution, and he decided northern Ontario should lose five ridings. So Mr. Harris passed what he called the Fewer Politicians Act, and northern Ontario lost five ridings as a result of the Conservative election. That’s something that we’ve never really recovered from in northern Ontario, because it means that in the assembly here there are five less northern voices that are able to be on either side of the House to advocate for the issues that are important to northern Ontario.

Like northern Ontario, eastern Ontario, southwestern Ontario or Toronto, we all have our particular challenges. The city of Toronto has challenges around gridlock, around transportation and around development. There are a number of issues that are very unique to the city of Toronto. Rightfully so, there are a number of members here—a large number of them—who are on all sides of the House advocating for what’s good for the GTHA.

But in northern Ontario, we find ourselves, because of Mike Harris, with five less members than we had in the pre-Harris days to be able to advocate for the north. So that means less people have chances of being in cabinet, it means less people on committees, and it means less people to lobby for communities across northern Ontario to advocate for those things that are important.

We have unique challenges in northern Ontario. We have the largest geographic area in Ontario, with the smallest population. We have transportation issues that are very different and very unique compared to the rest of Ontario. We have a large geography where we have to service communities that are pretty far apart. In my riding alone, on Saturdays and on Fridays, like all members, I attend riding events. With my good friend Mr. Yakabuski, from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, we get to do radio together every Friday. I know that he, like you, Mr.

Speaker, attends riding events, which is what we do as members on weekends. I have to travel an equivalent distance of from Timmins to Toronto to attend in one part of my riding, by the time I drive there and back, in one day. It’s a seven-hour drive just to get from where I live, in Kamiskotia Lake, over to Hearst. To get to Constance Lake is even further. It’s a seven- to eight-hour drive, depending on where you’re going for what event.

There are unique challenges with that. You have to have a highway that has far less traffic than you do on the 401. It means that you’ve got to maintain that highway. We’ve managed to reconstruct almost all of Highway 11 over the last little while. There’s still one stretch that we’re working on north of Kapuskasing, between Kapuskasing and Hearst. But that costs money. Highway construction in northeastern Ontario is the most expensive highway construction in the province—

Mr. John Yakabuski: In the world.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: It might even be the world, but I know it’s the most expensive in Ontario because of the geography. You’ve got to dig down and build the road base, because in a lot of places, they’re going through muskeg.

You need to have those northern members, to be able to add voice to those issues that are unique to northern Ontario around everything from infrastructure to education to the economy.

For example, the government announced something that we New Democrats have been pushing for for a long time, and that’s the creation of a francophone university.

Laissez-moi vous dire, il y a une question qui a besoin d’être répondue. Si on crée une université francophone ici à Toronto—une bonne idée que nous autres, on appuie; on a poussé pour ça pour des années, ma collègue France Gélinas et moi-même—on a besoin de ne pas oublier qu’il y a déjà une université en place appelée l’Université de Hearst.

My own daughter went to the Université de Hearst and is working in Timmins, because she got a good education in French and she’s able to find employment, with the university degree that she got, in the city of Timmins. It’s not going to do as much good if we create a university in Toronto and we offer better programming so that we can steal students from northern Ontario, out of Hearst, Kap and Timmins, so that they move down to southern Ontario. C’est pour ça and that’s why we need to have strong representation in this Legislature.

I think what Mr. Harris did, when he took five members away from the assembly from northern Ontario in his Fewer Politicians Act—he was the Donald Trump of the day, by the way. He wasn’t as Twitter-ful as this particular president is. He certainly would never have gone after the NFL issue; I can guarantee you that. Nonetheless, we are still reeling from that decision.

Last spring, the government introduces legislation on an idea that we in the NDP have been pushing for for a long time—in fact, we had it in one of our platforms a couple of elections ago—and that is that we create a commission in order to create ridings in northern Ontario where First Nations would be in a larger percentage of the overall population, so that they’re able to elect their own.

If you think we have challenges in northern Ontario, Mr. Speaker, in places like Timmins, Hearst, Kenora, Thunder Bay and Sudbury, can you imagine the challenges in Pikangikum, Attawapiskat, Peawanuck, Marten Falls and every other community in between? There are some unique challenges that people here, and even myself, as a representative of that part of the riding, can barely fathom. You’re talking some poverty, in some cases, as bad as some Third World conditions. You’re talking a lack of infrastructure, where you can’t even drink the water, or else you’re going to get sick.

You’re talking about infrastructure where, when you bathe your child, they get diseased on the skin from the stuff that’s in the water. You’re talking about no pavement on the roads, so that in the summer when you finally get some nice weather, you’ve got dust flying around the community that’s causing all kinds of respiratory problems for people living in those communities. You’re talking about no transportation other than air, because there are no roads in any parts of the northwest or northeastern part of northern Ontario where the First Nations are. There’s hardly any road network at all.

We’re still struggling to try to come up with building a road that would connect Highway 11 to the James Bay. The only thing we have are airplanes and a rail system that goes to Moosonee.

So there are unique challenges for the First Nations in the Mushkegowuk territory and in the territory in the northwestern part of the province that are very unique to those people and very unique to that geography. And that’s why we were hopeful, when the government introduced this legislation last year, that we were finally going to be moving on trying to create a couple of ridings in the Far North that would have given First Nations the ability to be able to elect their own because they would be in a higher percentage.

What I thought was going to come out of this, and I think what a lot of First Nations members thought was going to come out of this, was that we were going to create two ridings in the Far North, north of Highway 11 essentially. You would have had a northwest riding and a northeast riding of the Far North. In those ridings, 90% to 95% of the population in the northeast would be First Nation, and it wouldn’t be too far from that in the northwest. That would have allowed the First Nations to more than likely, not guaranteed, but more than likely elect their own.

In the current riding configuration of Kenora–Rainy River, the First Nations are a minority and in the current configuration of Timmins–James Bay, the First Nations are a minority, so it’s hard for them to elect their own into this particular configuration because they make up a smaller percentage of the riding.

So when the commission finally was struck and they started to do their work, I went to meet with the commission. I was the only one; I was the only member who went as a member to go meet with the commission here in Toronto. I know that Sarah Campbell did the same in the northwest when she met with the commission out there. When I met with the commissioners, I said, “Listen, you’ve got to be very conscious that politics in the Far North is very different than it is anywhere else in Ontario.” It’s not party politics. It’s not NDP, Liberal, Conservative.

Really, there’s no such thing in that culture; it’s more the politics of the individual and it’s family politics. Yes, they will run under banners, I would imagine, and for us in the NDP, I think we will do well. But the point is that it will be individuals who decide to run under somebody’s banner, and it will be more about the individual than it will be about the party. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, because culturally that’s who the Cree are and that’s who the Ojibway are. They operate in a different system and in a different mindset than we do.

So I met with the commission here in Toronto, at the University of Toronto, and my advice to them was that you need to create two ridings in the Far North above Highway 11 where you divide the populations as equally as you can; and that, yes, they would be much smaller ridings population-wise, but they would be large geographic ridings nonetheless, and then they would be in a position to elect their own. Imagine that, Mr.

Speaker, that in June of next year, if the House comes back then, or in the fall, depending on when the government decides to call the House back that year, we would end up with, in that configuration, two members from the Far North who are Mushkegowuk Cree or from one of the other communities in the northwest. I think that would be great. It would be the first time in the history of this province that we elect First Nations members directly to this assembly.

That would be a true step toward reconciliation, because we need to understand that the First Nations never gave up their sovereignty in the treaty. When they signed Treaty 9 and Treaty 3, which are the areas that are covered by these particular boundary changes, they signed a treaty with Ontario and with Canada—Ontario was a signatory to Treaty 9—and they said, “We’re not giving up our sovereignty. We’re going to share the land with you.” Well, we never did the sharing part.

We were really good at doing what white colonial governments do, and we went in and told them what was good for them, which wasn’t any good for them. We put them on reserves. We didn’t provide them the resources they needed to run those reserves with any type of real infrastructure; unemployment rates at 80% and 90%, depending which community you’re in; and a host of problems as a result of what we did with residential schools. And we just made all the decisions for them.

So starting some years ago, First Nations said, “Enough is enough,” and they started demanding to manage some of their own programs, everything from child welfare to hospitals—you name it. We’re moving in that direction. Some of that has been done; some is still a work in progress. There are difficulties along the way, but to take a step towards self-governance means to say that there’s some learning to be done and sometimes there are errors made and you learn from that and you move on.

But imagine, come the spring, if we were to elect two First Nations members from the Far North here in this assembly, it means that we’d have people who understand in a very visceral way what the challenges are to the people in those communities. They would understand, when we have debates about infrastructure and talk about things like subways, streetcars, buses and trains—they’d say, “Oh, my God, you’ve got those? How about you just give us a one-lane highway made of gravel to get to my community?

We’d be pretty happy with that.” You would have people here who understand the issues of poverty in the context of living on-reserve, because there are very unique issues of poverty that they face on a daily basis as a result of living on-reserve and the lack of support that we’ve provided them, both federally and provincially, to deal with those issues on-reserve.

We’d have advocates here 24 hours a day in this assembly and in our committees who would be able to sensitize the rest of us in understanding some of the challenges that they face and what needs to be done in order to slowly start turning back the damage that we’ve done to those people and those communities as a result of our colonial ways when it comes to how we’ve governed issues for them on the James Bay.

I spoke to the commission and I said, “What I would do and what I strongly recommend is that you do create two ridings across the Far North.” The commission came back and said, “Well, there are possibly constitutional issues with that.” And I get it. Somebody in southern Ontario is going to say, “Oh, my God, they’re going to get a riding of 15,000 people. Who the hell are they?” Well, they’re the Mushkegowuk Cree. They’re people who we did treaty with. They’re people who never gave up their sovereignty. They’re people who are saying, “We still want to share our land with you, but we want to be there making the decisions with our people.”

So, yes, create two small ridings in the Far North. The population would only be about 16,000 or 17,000 per riding. I get it; it’s small. But it’s been done in other parts of Canada, where we’ve created ridings that are as much as 75% smaller in population to the average provincial riding in the western part of this country. People have tried to challenge it, but the courts have upheld that if you’re creating a riding—typically when you create a riding you have to look at population.

The general rule of thumb is that as long as they’re all close enough together in population and there’s not a large deviance, it’s held as being okay. That’s legal. Well, there’s another principle that was put in place by the Supreme Court that says that you then also can deviate from that because of cultural or linguistic reasons for First Nations. So I think it would be upheld by the courts. But let some person—I was going to use a bad word there—go and challenge us on the creation of two Far North ridings where First Nations people come to this Legislature.

Let that person stand up, let that colonialist stand up to the First Nations and be counted in trying to turn the clock back to say, “No, you’re not entitled to have members here in this Legislature.” I want to see who those people are.

I don’t think it would happen. I think there are more and more people in this province who are understanding because of the work that some of us have been doing and the work that, certainly, the grand chiefs in the communities have been doing—people like Theresa Spence, Stan Louttit, Jonathon Solomon, Alvin Fiddler and a whole bunch of others—to put their issues front and centre. I think there are a lot of gracious Ontarians who would say, “You know what? This is maybe not the entire solution to the First Nation issues, but this is a big step in the right direction.”

By creating two ridings in the Far North, north of Highway 11—northeast, Mushkegowuk; northwest, the other riding—you would be in a position where they would be at about 90% of the population of those ridings, and more than likely, you’ll be electing First Nations members to come into this assembly in the next election. That’s what I told the commission when I met with them way back—I think it was spring of this year, when they first got together and I met with them in Thunder Bay.

The one thing I do want to say about this government initiative is that it was a rather rushed process. This commission was put on the road in June or the beginning of July, and they had till August to make their recommendations. People didn’t even get their heads around this. I went to meetings in Timmins where the commission came and there were less than 10 people there. There was one meeting where I think two people showed up. There were meetings that were attempted up in the Far North that didn’t even happen because they couldn’t get a hold of people because people were out gathering. You know what?

You don’t go to the A&P when you live in Peawanuck. You don’t go to the Metro store to gather your food in the way that we do. A lot of the food that they eat through the winter is gathered through the summer, the spring and the fall.

So guess what people are doing in the summer? First of all, they’re warming up from a really cold winter, because it gets pretty cold in far northern Ontario, but more importantly, they’re doing the things they need to do to prepare for the next winter. People are building buildings and doing whatever construction can be done in that short two-month or three-month period that they’re able to do construction in, because if you’re going to build housing or sewer plants or anything, you’ve got a very short construction window to do it.

People are busy and band offices and administrations are busy managing projects in that three-month window in the summer to do construction. People are doing what they do by gathering in order to harvest food for the winter. So the commission wasn’t able to engage with hardly anybody in the Far North because of the circumstance.

If this had been done in the winter and we had given six or seven months for the commission to do its work, I’m very sure that the First Nations members would have participated in large numbers. But they didn’t do so because, quite frankly, they were doing the stuff they normally do in the summer. It’s not that they were going off on holidays to Disneyland or Marineland or Wonderland; they were gathering food. They were building buildings. They were doing the stuff that they’ve got to do in preparation for winter.

The commission went out on the road and they consulted who came, and then they finally came out with an interim report. I remember, when I read their interim report, being extremely disappointed, and I said that to the commission directly when I met with them a second time in Timmins. I said, “I wish I could stand here and say, ‘Job well done,’ but I’m really disappointed with what you came forward with.” For Timmins: wonderful. I’m going to have a riding that’s 43,000 people in the next election. I’ll literally be able to get on my bicycle and bike from one end of the riding to the other, if I run in Timmins.

If I run on Highway 11, it’s essentially the old Cochrane North riding, less Cochrane. It’s Smooth Rock Falls to Peawanuck, Hearst and everywhere in between—Constance Lake.

This is what really galled me: The logic that the commission used was, “Oh, this creates a francophone riding.”

That was a real insult. They were trying to say that the reason they were creating this new riding configuration was because we were going to create a francophone riding in northern Ontario. I just finished explaining that I am a francophone. My paternal name is Bisson. My maternal name is Lehoux. That’s about as French as you get. We came here in the 1600s, one with “les filles du roi.”

To all of a sudden try to say that this is a great thing for francophones: I’m sorry; in the riding I currently represent, 40% of the population in Timmins is French, and I would say that about 65% or 70% of Highway 11 is French. Combined, we are the majority in my riding. The likelihood of electing a francophone in James Bay is pretty strong. You don’t need to create a new riding on Highway 11 to create a francophone riding; it is already a francophone riding. Let’s put that one to sleep.

The other thing is, as Grand Chief Solomon from the Mushkegowuk Cree said the other day when he first heard about this and we were chatting about it—I ran across him somewhere: “I don’t know if I should be honoured or I should be angered at the creation of the Mushkegowuk riding.” He said, “They’re creating a new riding called Mushkegowuk. First of all, nobody ever asked me. Nobody ever asked any of the Mushkegowuk people if it was okay to use that as a name. We’re kind of honoured that they wanted to use our name, but nobody came and talked to us about it.

And then I look at the geography and find out I’ll be smaller in percentage than I am now. We end up that the James Bay is about 10 polls to the about 65 to 70 polls that you’ll have on the Highway 11 corridor.”

So they see themselves as being in a minority. They see themselves as not having an elevated chance of electing a First Nations person to the new riding of Mushkegowuk. So they’re saying, “What about us? We thought this exercise that the government announced was about reconciliation”—said Jonathon Solomon, said Pat Chilton, Chief Gull out of Attawapiskat and other people I’ve talked to.

What really struck me in the majority of the conversations I had: Nobody was surprised. I can’t use the words that they used when they talked to me about it—but what they said was, “We are hardly surprised that yet again we’re getting the short end of the stick. We’re kind of used to it. The government is really good at making announcements that sound good on the surface. The government announced that they’re going to create these ridings to help First Nations, and we find out we’re worse off in the new configuration than we are in the current configuration. Well, we’re not surprised. This is par for the course.

This is more colonialism. This is not about reconciliation and respect. This is like, ‘We’re going to use your name so that we can call it First Nation, Mushkegowuk, and then we’re just going to carry on doing what we did before. And we’re creating a francophone riding called Mushkegowuk.’”

Imagine if you’re a Mushkegowuk, somewhere on the James Bay territory, in the territory of the Mushkegowuk people, and you hear the words coming from the commission and the government, “We are creating a riding for First Nations called Mushkegowuk where francophones will be in the majority to elect their own.” I don’t think they’re too happy; in fact, they’re not. They’re not hostile. They’re not angry. They’re not yelling and screaming. That’s not the way of the Mushkegowuk Cree. They’re very respectful people,infinitely patient people.

Pat Chilton was telling me the other day—and he is one of the guys that I like to talk to, because he has been around the horn a number of times on most of these issues. He said, “Gilles, we don’t put our hopes up high with you guys too much because we know you can’t help yourselves.”

I, for one, am trying to say to this government and to this assembly that we need to change the boundaries. You can’t create the boundaries the way that you’re doing it now. It’s a slap in the face to the First Nations, and it’s disrespectful towards reconciliation. We actually have a chance of having two members from the Far North be elected in the next election to be members in this assembly. That would go a long way towards reconciliation. It would go a long way in helping us better understand their issues. Will we?

As I said to the Mushkegowuk Council—they had their AGM on Thursday; that’s why I wasn’t here on Thursday, last week. I was meeting with the Mushkegowuk up in New Post. Does anybody know where New Post is? See, that’s my point. New Post even has a road that—I don’t begrudge people, because there are places in southwestern Ontario I wouldn’t know. But my point is, it talks to the geography of this province. How are you going to understand the issues of New Post unless you have somebody—in this case, John Vanthof is the member there, and he travels to that area quite a bit. I go there occasionally as well.

But if you have somebody from the James Bay who represents the people of the James Bay, it would be a lot better.

Anyway, I was at the New Post AGM for Mushkegowuk on Thursday, and there was a discussion about this. I’ve got to tell you, I love working with the Mushkegowuk Cree because you learn so much from our friends on the James Bay, and one of them is an infinite amount of tolerance—an infinite amount of patience and understanding. They understand that we missed the boat. They understand that we couldn’t help ourselves. We had to do something that bettered ourselves and didn’t help them. They understand that. They don’t like it. They’re not happy. But they understand it’s more of the same; it’s more colonialism.

So as some of my friends that I was talking to there on Thursday were saying, “We’re not surprised. We’re not surprised that yet again you couldn’t but help yourself rather than help us, and make it look as if you’re trying to help us.” A great press release: “Government of Ontario creates two northern ridings in the Far North,” Mushkegowuk being one of them. The average person in Toronto—I don’t blame them—opens the paper and says, “Oh, bravo. Wonderful. We’re finally doing something for First Nations.” Well, the First Nations who live there are saying, “Well, no. Actually, you’re not doing anything.

We’re going backwards; we’re not going forwards.” They were disappointed, but they weren’t surprised.

In the conversation that ensued at the Mushkegowuk tribal council meeting, they said, “Can you think that maybe they would come up and see us? We were out doing things this summer like building housing and gathering food. We were doing the stuff that we traditionally have to do in the summer”—because their summers are so short—“so of course we didn’t meet with any commission. We didn’t, quite frankly, have the time.” We need to respect that. That’s the way that they do business there. It’s not for us to impose our culture and our ways on them. It’s for us to accommodate them.

They said, “Do you think that maybe this government will send a committee up to meet with us and we can actually have a discussion about what this is all about?” I said, “Well, let me see. Let me go and talk to the government House leader and the Conservative House leader in order to see if we’re able to make this happen.” So I had discussions this week with the government House leader. He’s agreed to allow the committee to go to Moose Factory on Thursday of next week during constituency week.

There are some challenges because there’s not a lot of infrastructure there. Trying to put up 15 people from committee in Moose Factory is pretty hard to do on short notice. You’d need a lot longer. I already called, just so the Clerks know, and there are only five rooms available. It looks like we’re going to have to go overnight in Kenora and then fly directly to Moose Factory on the Thursday. And it’s got to be on the Thursday because the grand chief and a lot of his people are at another conference and they’re not flying back in until the Thursday morning.

Again, are we prepared to respect the First Nations? Is this assembly prepared to say, “Let’s move the committee to Thursday?” So far, the answer from the government House leader’s office is yes, which is good, but I’m getting some pushback from the Conservatives. The Conservatives say, “Well, the committee has got to go to Timmins.” It’s been there twice. Timmins is in favour of this bill. I’ll tell you right now, I’m voting for it. I’m never going to vote against a bill that creates two northern ridings. No. Under any circumstance, I’m not voting against that.

I’m not happy and that’s why I’m being critical in this debate, and I’ll fight like heck with my First Nations brothers and sisters to be able to make the changes that need to be made. But I can tell you that if the committee goes to Timmins, Mayor Steve Black will show up and say, “This is wonderful.” The chamber of commerce will show up and say, “This is wonderful.” All the movers and shakers will show up and say, “It’s wonderful. We’re going to have a riding of 43,000 people; just us, the little city of Timmins. We’ll have our own little enclave and we’ll do our thing.”

Then, Highway 11, Hearst to Smooth Rock Falls—I’m not even going to include Constance Lake in that; that’s for debate a little bit later—will have their own little riding, and the First Nations will be about 8% to 10% of the population of that riding. They’re going to have their own little riding and they’re pretty happy with that as well. So I can guarantee you that if the committee goes to those two areas where the new ridings are being created, Highway 11 or Timmins, people like it. God, I’m going to vote for it. How can you vote against?

Where we need to go is to Moose Factory to speak to the First Nations. This whole bill was supposed to be about creating First Nation ridings, and the Conservatives say to me, “Oh, yes, but we need to go to Timmins,” more or less inferring that if we don’t go to Timmins, we’re not going to go to Moose Factory. Play that card. Play that card, my Conservative friends. You might win a couple of political battles in Timmins—because that’s what this is all about, and that’s fine. Bring it on. Do everything you can in Timmins. I don’t have a problem with that.

I’ve run against all kinds of people in the past, and the people of Timmins can decide for themselves. I have no issue with that. But this should be about our First Nations friends, and our First Nations friends are asking that that committee go to Moose Factory. The New Democrats want that, and we’ve been pushing for that. Andrea Horwath wants that; she’s been pushing for that. The government has heard, the government has agreed, and now I’m getting pushback from the Conservatives.

I’m doing something that you should never do. You should never be doing this kind of debate in the Legislature, talking about positions of parties, but I’m doing it for a reason. If I don’t put this out in the public record now, people are going to think, because of the spin being put on, that this is all about Bisson not wanting the committee to go to Timmins. I know the game. I’ve been here for 27 years. I understand how it works.

I’m doing a bit of a shot across the bow to my Conservative friends. I’m saying, listen, we need to make sure that we respect our First Nations brothers and sisters. We need to make sure, when Mushkegowuk Council says to us by way of a unanimous motion at their council—I have the resolution here, which I’ll read part of later. I wasn’t even there when they did the vote on this; I made sure that I was out of the room and I was gone. They said, in unanimity, “It’s a question of respect, and we want that commission or the committee to come to Moose Factory.

We want you to come to our area of government,” because Mushkegowuk, the government of the people of the James Bay, is in Moose Factory. That’s the significance here. Sort of the seat of power of Mushkegowuk tribal council is where their head offices are. The grand chief is going to be there on Thursday. I understand that Alvin Fiddler from NAN will be there as well. Other people will be assembled in order to hear what the committee has to say, and for some discussion to happen between us about what the new riding configuration should be.

Then it will be entirely up to the government members to decide if they want to support the changes that are going to be proposed by the First Nations. I hope they do. I hope that, for one time in the path to reconciliation, we actually say, “Yes, we hear you. We hear what you’re asking, and we’re prepared to do what needs to be done to support that request.”

Yes, we understand, and I understand, that there are going to be those out there who are going to say, “Constitutionally having two ridings of 17,000 people? Oh, my God, the end of the world is coming.” Well, let them all move to the James Bay. Let them all live in Attawapiskat or Kashechewan for a week and tell me they don’t think that they deserve their own representation. How dare anybody try to say that.

We need to, for one time on the path to reconciliation, understand what treaty is all about. Treaty was not about ceding governance. First Nations never ceded governance to the white man. First Nations said, “We want to share. You share with us the bounty of the land”—forestry, mining, hydro whatever it might deliver—“and you share with us a system of education, a system of health care and an economy that we can all participate in.”

Well, you know, we haven’t been very good at keeping our end of the treaties. We’re really good at taking. We took the gold, we took the copper, we took the power from the rivers, we took the trees. We never shared.

Finally, there’s a little bit of sharing starting to happen. People like OPG negotiated an agreement with the Cree with regard to the development of the Mattagami River basin. That was something that I’m proud to say we did and started back in 1991, when I was in government. We did a statement of principle, and we also did an order in council that said that whenever this project goes forward, we need to make sure that we include the First Nations in the benefits of what this thing would be. Some 20, 25 years later, when we built and finally redeveloped the Mattagami River basin, the First Nations got a share of the action. They’re part owners of the OPG facilities, and rightfully so.

But that’s only the beginning. This legislation allows us to elect directly two members from the Far North who are First Nations members, to be here on a daily basis so that they can advocate themselves for the issues that are important to them and make sure that we, the rest of the ridings across Ontario, are better able to understand what their issues are.

Now, I and Charlie Angus, who both represent the Far North in the James Bay, and Sarah Campbell, who represents the northwest, have tried hard. We’ve worked hard and we have good relationships with people there. But I’m not Cree. Charlie is not Cree. Sarah is not Ojibway-Cree. We understand some of the issues because we’re there a lot, but we don’t live those issues that they have lived.

I think of the stories that some of my friends have told me over the years—Charlie Kiokie, Gilbert Cheechoo, and the names go on. I’m not going to tell some of the stories here because, quite frankly, some of them are pretty hurtful. But they have experienced things that we could never fathom as a result of what we imposed on them after we signed treaty. I’ve got to tell you, it’s some pretty tough stuff.

It’s pretty amazing how resilient our First Nations friends are, because they still want to share. After all of this, after everything that has happened, they’re still standing there saying, “We’re going to live up to the treaty. We respect what we signed. We don’t like what you guys have done, but we respect the treaty, and we want you to live up to it. We are certainly prepared to do the same.” So this is our chance.

I’m hoping a couple of things happen over the next couple of days. I’m hoping that the Conservatives finally understand that it’s right and proper for this committee to go to Moose Factory and that we don’t start playing games around the city of Timmins as a way of deflecting and of not allowing the First Nations to have their full say on this thing.

The committee is only going to travel two days. Sorry, it’s the only time they’re travelling. If it’s going to go anywhere in the northeast, it has got to go to Moose Factory because that’s where the First Nations are. It has got to—

Mr. Steve Clark: Let’s do three days.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Good luck on that one. This is what I love about the Conservatives under Patrick Brown: They’re like Liberals. The Patrick Brown Conservatives are trying to become the new Liberal Party of Ontario—really. You guys should be worried about plagiarism on the other side of the House—seriously. They’re playing a little bit of a game here.

Interjection.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: No, they’re playing a game. Instead of doing what’s right and trying to deal with what we have—the government has agreed to two days of hearings and we’re going to the James Bay in order to hear what we have to say—the Conservatives are playing this game: “Well, let’s do a third day, and let’s go to Timmins.” Well, if you’re going to Timmins, how come we’re not going to Highway 11? And how come we’re not going to Fort Frances? And why don’t we go to the Far North? We’re not going to the Far North and the northwest—

Mr. Steve Clark: Let’s go to Fort Frances.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: No, because you guys are playing a game. This is all about trying to make points for possible political gain in the next election. I’m going to guarantee you: There’s going to be an election in the spring; there will be a Conservative candidate—a good one—you guys will run a full campaign, and good luck. The people of Timmins will decide. It’s not for us to play games on the backs of First Nations by way of being able to advance your political benefit. I think that’s wrong.

Listen, I’ve run against Al Spacek, a great candidate; I think, one of the strong leaders of northern Ontario; Steve Black—I ran against in the last election. You’ve always had good candidates, and that’s good. That’s good, fair competition. Let’s do that next election; let’s not play that game now. Let us do what’s right.

We got two days of hearings during a constituency week when we don’t normally travel, so two days is quite a lot, to be honest. We don’t normally travel during the constituency week. When is the last time we’ve done that? I don’t think it’s been done since the minority Parliament. So we’ve got two days.

The reason we got the two days is because we, the New Democrats, kicked up a fuss with the government that the First Nations needed to be heard. The government, for their own reasons, some of them for whatever—I’ll let them explain themselves—said, “Okay. We’ll travel for those two days.” They originally came to me and said, “We’re going to go to Kenora. We’re going to go to Timmins.” I said, “Listen, Timmins loves this.” There’s nobody in Timmins who doesn’t think that it’s a good thing for Timmins to have its own riding—I’ll concede that right now. I’m voting for the legislation, by the way.

Nobody in Timmins is going to say this is a bad thing. So let me short-circuit the process right now: If you come to Timmins, everybody is going to say it’s great, and that’s fine; it’s not a problem. But it’s the First Nations who are the ones being left aside. They are the ones who are waiting for this to happen so that they can finally work towards reconciliation with the colonial governments of Ontario and Canada. They’re the ones who are saying, “Finally, maybe something can be done.”

This is the request by the Mushkegowuk Cree. Mushkegowuk’s 32nd annual council met last week in New Post—as I said, that’s where I was last Thursday. I’m not going to read all of the “whereases” in because all the “whereases” essentially say, “This new riding that’s being created actually doesn’t move us forward; it moves us backwards.

We’re going to be lesser in the percentage of the population than we are now.” What’s worse is, at least when Timmins is part of the riding, there’s a sizable First Nations population in Timmins, plus all of the head offices for First Nations are in Timmins: Five Nations Energy; Mushkegowuk Council has an office in Timmins; Moose Cree has an office in Timmins; the health centre is in Timmins; Wabun Tribal Council is in Timmins. There’s at least a core First Nations presence in the city of Timmins—not so much on Highway 11.

Other than Constance Lake, Hearst and a little bit in Kap, there’s not a lot compared to Timmins.

So they’re saying in their “whereases” that the configuration of the new riding of Mushkegowuk—two things: “You use the name Mushkegowuk without our permission. We’re flattered that you use the name, but you should have at least asked us,” and, “We’re going to be worse off under this riding configuration representation-wise, as far as being able to elect our own, than we are currently.”

They go on to say, “Therefore

be it resolved that this the 2017 annual assembly of the chiefs and delegates of the Mushkegowuk people urges that the presently proposed new Mushkegowuk electoral riding not proceed, and that before any electoral riding changes are made, real consultations take place in Mushkegowuk territory”—underline “in Mushkegowuk territory;” that means Moose Factory—“and that a riding be considered and implemented which respects the Omushkego in our ancestral homelands, and ensures the likelihood of real Omushkego representation in the Ontario Legislature in the future.” So they’re saying, “Listen, if you’re going to do this, at least come and talk to us.”

As I said, I’ve talked to the government House leader and the government House leader’s office. They’ve agreed for the committee to go there. I’ve made some initial phone calls, as I was saying to the table a little earlier. It’s going to have to be on Thursday because of timing.

Again, it is not for us to decide when it is that First Nations need to talk to us. We need to find out when they’re available. Let’s respect them for once. Chief Solomon and others are at another conference next week, but they could be there and fly up to Moose Factory, where they live, on Thursday morning. So we would be able to meet with them on Thursday afternoon from about 12 o’clock or 1 o’clock on. We’d have an afternoon session with the Mushkegowuk people.

I’m urging this assembly to support this bill, even though it’s flawed now—I understand that it’s flawed. I think any time you create two ridings in northern Ontario, it’s a step in the right direction. Of course, we’d never vote against that. The people of Timmins are happy, the people on Highway 11 are happy: I get that. People like the idea that they would have their own ridings in the way that they’re being proposed. But that’s not what this legislation was supposed to be all about. If you read the

preamble of the previous bill that was in this House, there were five principles that were set out. The number one principle was that we were going to create ridings in the Far North in order to give the First Nations people voice. That’s what this thing was all about. It wasn’t about serving ourselves by helping just Timmins and helping just Highway 11. This is certainly helping Timmins and certainly helping Highway 11—I get that—but we’re forsaking our First Nations friends on the James Bay.

Let me just say this here, because it was commented to me this summer: Timmins and the area of Timmins over the last 15, 20 years have come a long ways. I want to assure you of something, Mr. Speaker: Racism is alive and well when it comes to the feeling towards First Nations. Don’t ever think it’s not.

But there have been efforts in the city of Timmins on the part of many people—our chamber of commerce; our labour councils; the elected provincial and federal officials, like myself and Charlie Angus; the city of Timmins, with former mayor Tom Laughren and his council, and Steve Black and his current council; various organizations—to reach out to First Nations and to say, “Okay, we know that we’ve done wrong in the past. How can we fix it? We can’t fix what happened yesterday. Help us focus on what we do tomorrow.”

In our area of Timmins, there is a much stronger appreciation for our First Nations friends on the James Bay, so much so—I was actually moved on Canada Day. We had what was called Stars and Thunder, which was a 10-day event where we had the international fireworks come to Timmins to display their fireworks and we had 10 different big-name bands and performers come to perform. People like Keith Urban were there on Canada Day. We had this wonderful show on Canada Day at about 12 o’clock in Hollinger Park, where Stars and Thunder was taking place.

One of the things that is now automatic: Our First Nations friends are part of every celebration that we do. They brought their dancers. They brought their fancy dancers. It was really something to see. I’m still choked up when I think of it. They came onto the stage, the big professional stage that Keith Urban was going to be singing on that night, and they performed a performance for the people who were gathered there.

There were 20,000 people in Hollinger Park at that point. You’ve got to remember, Timmins is only 45,000 people. We had 20,000 people in the park. I remember standing on the stage, watching the dance and the fancy dancers do their thing. There were 20,000 people, mostly from our area, standing there, cheering, whooping, hollering and applauding. They were just really excited with what was going on.

And Gary—I forget his last name now; it’ll come to me in a minute, but one of the organizers, a First Nations friend of mine, Gary came and said, “You know what? We have come a long ways in Timmins. You would never have seen this 20 years ago.” He said, “I was a little boy who grew up around here, and I can tell you, you felt the hate when you walked down the street. Now, it’s still there. There are still some people unfortunately who have those views, but they’re a much, much smaller percentage of the population.” And why? Because people have stuck their necks out.

Steve Black—I’ll give him credit—ran against me in the last election as a Conservative. As mayor, one of the things he tries to do, and I give him great credit for this, is to involve First Nations in everything we do in the city of Timmins. I think that’s appropriate. We are the regional centre for the James Bay. Everything that goes up, or most everything that goes up, to the James Bay in service or material comes by way of Timmins or Cochrane—mostly Timmins because we have the large airport there. But it’s a change of attitude.

What Gary said to me is, “It’s not like that in Thunder Bay.” We saw yet again this weekend, unfortunately, another death in the aboriginal community in Thunder Bay—another mysterious death. The only way you change this is by action. The only way you overcome racism and the only way you overcome the bad that is done to our First Nations friends is by taking action.

In our community in Timmins, we still have problems. Don’t anybody ever think that racism isn’t alive in Timmins. We have people who have those views, but there are less. They’re much more quiet about it and there are less of them, because the leadership from the chamber of commerce to the labour council to the city to myself and others have gone a long ways in order to try to work with our First Nations friends on the James Bay and in the city of Timmins in order to do what’s right and give them a real say about what happens in our community.

Have we done it all right? No, we’ve done some things wrong, but we’re trying. One step at a time, we’re getting there.

But I was telling you the story about Stars and Thunder. I forgot to close that story. The part that was really moving was, when it came to the speeches after the fancy dancers, both the mayor of Timmins, Steve Black, and myself alluded to the wrongs that were done to the First Nations and about how now we’re trying to do things right. Essentially, that’s what the speeches were about. The approval on the part of those assembled, the 20,000 people—the applause was deafening.

When Mayor Black and myself spoke to trying to do what’s right by way of First Nations and about how we need to build real partnerships, the non-First Nations people who were there, the people of the city of Timmins and the area who were there, of that 20,000, it was deafening to hear the applause—no boos, not jeering, nothing like that. People genuinely responded and were trying to say by way of their response to the speeches, “We, too, support doing what’s right for First Nations in our area.” That, I’ve got to tell you, was very moving.

So here we are. This bill is going to come up for a vote shortly. I urge everybody to vote for this bill. This is, again, an opportunity to do what’s right for First Nations. As I said, we’re creating two new northern ridings, so you can’t vote against two new northern ridings in any configuration, but we should at least try to do what’s right.

As I said, we in the New Democratic Party have asked that the committee go to James Bay. The government has agreed. The government is trying to accommodate that request. I was on the phone with the House leader’s office yesterday and in discussions with some of the staff. There are some logistical problems that we’re trying to work out, but it looks like we can work them out by being there Thursday afternoon next week. That means that people are going to have to go from Kenora, jump on the plane on the Thursday morning after doing the hearing in Kenora on Wednesday, and fly directly to Moose Factory.

Again, I caution my Conservative friends who are saying, “Yes, but we can’t go there unless we go to Timmins.” Timmins is in favour; they’re fine. We love this legislation. I tell you right now, that’s what you’re going to hear. But don’t play the game, “Oh, if you don’t go to Timmins, then we’re not going to support the committee going to Moose Factory.” You’ve got to let that committee go to Moose Factory. It’s as simple as that. It’s a no-brainer. It’s a step towards reconciliation. The Mushkegowuk people, by way of the assembly, have said, “You can’t do this without coming to talk to us.”

So I’m urging Patrick Brown, the liberal leader of the Conservative Party, to do what’s right and to show his true liberal colours and, for once, to try to help somebody in northern Ontario rather than just playing politics. I realize this is something that we would normally not do in the House, but I’m doing it because I’ve got no other way of being able to make sure that he gets the message.

Interjection.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: That’s what it’s all about. Sorry, I’ve been here 27 years. I get how it plays.

I, again, urge people to do what’s right. I ask people to vote for this legislation. I ask people to be respectful of our First Nations friends and allow the committee to go up north. We need to listen to what the First Nations members tell us on this legislation, and then we have to be willing to amend the legislation. I know my friend, the minister of aboriginal affairs, would understand this.

The commission did what they did for their own reasons, and I think we just leave it at that. But this is finally a chance for us to take a real step towards reconciliation. We need to be able to ensure that after the next election we do have two far northern ridings north of Highway 11 that are made up primarily of First Nations members; one in the northwest, one in the northeast. They would be a huge majority. They would be about 90% in each riding, if not more, where they can elect their own to come here. They will come here on both sides of the House.

They’re free to choose how they run and all that type of stuff. That will be up to them. Once they’re here, we’re going to have two people who actually lived the experience, who are going to be able to help us understand what some of their issues are, and work with them towards finding some solutions.

Because I know Minister Zimmerman—excuse me, Zimmer. Why was I saying “Zimmerman?” Wow, that was bad. Sorry about that. My apologies. I know that he truly cares. I know that he’s trying to do the right thing. But like me, you’re not a First Nations person. We were up in Attawapiskat together—not Attawapiskat; it was Kashechewan. We were up in Kashechewan together when we signed that historic agreement. You and I were pretty moved by the whole thing as we watched it.

But you recognized, as I did, as you went and looked at those who were there and you talked to people who were there, that this was a big deal for them, because it finally meant that they weren’t going to be told what to do. They would actually have a seat at the table and decide for themselves what to do with their new community; that colonialism is not alive and well; that we need to do things differently.

We need to recognize that when First Nations signed the treaty they didn’t give up their governance. They never said, “Oh, we’re going to let you make all of our decisions.” All the treaty was about was us sharing what they had. We took, and they never got the sharing part. We’re trying to fix some of that now by different things that we’ve done over the years. Some of it is better than it was, but we have a long way to go. What better thing to do than to amend this legislation and to ensure that we have two far northern ridings that would have First Nations people who come here and represent those parts of the world in Ontario here in this assembly?

Imagine being on a committee when we’re talking about a poverty issue or a transportation issue or a health issue or an economic issue with the First Nations member who comes from somewhere in the northwest or the northeast. They have a perspective that is very different from you and me. They live in communities where you have 90% unemployment. They live in a community where the rates of suicide are through the roof with youth, let alone adults. They have communities that have unique problems because of the poverty that is in those communities.

They have unique problems because of what has happened with the residential school syndrome. These are all things they understand that we can’t even pretend to understand.

Is the minister trying to do the right thing? Absolutely. Are Gilles Bisson, Charlie Angus and Sarah Campbell trying to do the right thing when it comes to First Nations? Absolutely. But we’re not them. We don’t walk a mile in their shoes. So this is our chance to do something that’s right.

Again, I hope that we’re able to work our way through the three parties in allowing this committee to go to Moose Factory for the afternoon on Thursday to do what has to be done. We don’t get into the politics: “Oh, the committee absolutely has to go to Timmins, or else. If it doesn’t go to Timmins, we’re not going to support it going to Moose Factory.” Oh, my God, let’s not go there, please.

Ms. Catherine Fife: No games.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: No games on this thing: “Oh, all we’ve got to do is add another day.” Well, if you’re going to add another day for Timmins, I want it to go to Hearst, because Hearst has its issues. Then, I need it to go to Pikangikum, because they have their issues. Let’s travel the thing for the next year and let’s not have a new riding for next year.

The commission has already done all of that consultation and the commission has recommended what they recommended. I disagree; I think it was a bad recommendation. I’ve already said that to the commission directly. They took exception to it, and I get it; I understand.

They didn’t do it because they were trying to be malicious. I think they tried to do the right thing; I know that for sure. But, again, it’s because they’re not from the James Bay; they’re not from the northwest; they didn’t live the experience of being raised in those communities. They saw things from the perspective of a white person. That’s what the commissioners saw. Mrs. Pelletier sees it from her perspective, and I get it. I see it from my perspective.

That’s why I’m prepared to say, as a representative of that riding, who better to represent the James Bay than somebody from the James Bay? Who better understands the issues of those communities than somebody who lives there and somebody who has lived the experience? Who better to advocate for their issues than themselves? They understand the internal politics of their communities in ways that I never would. I understand just the scratching surface of what some of those politics are. They live it; they’ve been there; they understand it.

They understand what the family politics and the community politics and the religious politics are all about, and the politics of the residential schools syndrome and the politics of poverty. They understand all of that in a way that I could never understand. I can try hard, but they’re the ones to truly be able to do it.

Again, I urge the assembly to vote for this bill. We certainly will be supporting it. I urge members to make sure that this committee does the right thing; we don’t play politics with this. Let’s go and do Kenora and do Mushkegowuk Council hearings up in Moose Factory. Let’s hear what they have to say and let them try to do a step towards reconciliation.

Let’s, as a committee, go back in clause-by-clause and make the changes that need to be made to this legislation so that we actually end up with what we wanted in the first place, which was to have two far northern ridings where First Nations would be the driving force and they would be the people to be elected to come to this Legislature and represent us all.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you for the time in debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Questions and comments?

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: I listened very carefully to the remarks from the member from Timmins–James Bay. Our government created this commission, an independent commission, to create the two Far North ridings, the two northern ridings. We’re definitely in favour of improving representation for people living in Ontario’s northernmost communities.

I listened to what the member had to say. The commission that went out there was independent. It was specifically mandated to consider representation of indigenous peoples as one factor in making its recommendations. The commission was at arm’s length; it wasn’t the government. It was a commission that was sent out there to try to get the two new ridings’ boundaries right. As stated in the preliminary report, the commission viewed this as a particular priority in its work.

I understand that the commission endeavoured to provide as many opportunities as possible for indigenous peoples to share their perspectives during the first round of consultations, which were held in nine First Nation communities.

Members of the commission also attended the spring assemblies of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, Grand Council Treaty 3 and the Chiefs of Ontario. The indigenous voice also comprised the majority of the commission itself. Three of the five commissioners, including the chair, were indigenous.

We tried our very best to make sure this was done right. We are the ones who decided to create these two new northern ridings. I think it was a step in the right direction.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions?

Mr. Steve Clark: I had the opportunity to hear some of the member for Timmins–James Bay’s speech; I was in committee for the first half-hour of the session this morning. I know that he has been away a bit; he hasn’t been here at some of the House leaders’ meetings. But I want to tell him that we’re not playing any games as a party.

Speaker, you know the Leader of the Opposition. He has been committed to travelling to the north, from our perspective, our caucus, the Ontario Progressive Conservative caucus, ever since he became the leader. Every summer caucus meeting we’ve had for the last three years, we’ve been to the north. It has been a great experience for members of the Legislature. I’m a rural eastern Ontario member, so I very much enjoyed going up to the north.

I want to compliment the member for all of the outreach that he has done to prepare for this meeting in Moose Factory. Again, I want to say that our party is not playing games. We’re very supportive of going to Moose Factory. At no time did our House leader, Mr. Wilson, ever communicate to the government House leader, Mr. Naqvi, that a trip to that community was not supported by us—on the contrary. We were asked as part of a negotiation. This member knows better, probably, than anybody in the chamber the way the House leaders’ negotiations work. Sometimes they don’t work.

I know our House leader, Mr. Wilson. He’d be more than happy to sit down, now that the three House leaders are here at Queen’s Park, to negotiate some travel and to get this bill moving. From our perspective, having hearings in the north during the break week and coming back after that and passing this bill—that’s very doable for the Ontario PC caucus. So I encourage the member to sit down with the other two House leaders and get the job done. There’s no games.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments?

Ms. Catherine Fife: I want to commend the member from Timmins–James Bay for sharing the history of this place, the historical decisions that have been made around the north, and also really emphasizing the opportunity that this House has to move reconciliation to reconcili-action. Bill 152, the Representation Statute Law Amendment Act, is that opportunity.

I agree wholeheartedly with his assessment of the committee’s recommendations that they have missed the mark, and I can tell you why. When I was president of the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association—the member from Windsor also served on that as well—we had a First Nations advisory committee. These were trustees who sat on boards across the province. Those First Nations voices at that table informed us. They informed our advocacy for indigenous peoples. They challenged us to learn.

They challenged us to acknowledge that there were great inequities in the education funding from the federal government across this country. They challenged us to push the fact that First Nations people do not have housing standards or water-quality standards, which inform their ability to be successful in the education system, which compromises their potential in their own communities. I’m thankful for those voices because they taught me how to be a better advocate for all students.

I think that it is well within the rights of this House and this Legislature to ensure that we do elect two indigenous voices to this place to rightfully take their seats in this House and bring a marginalized group of voices to this Legislature. We can right this wrong. We can honour reconciliation. If this government chooses not to, that is, indeed, a lost opportunity.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Bob Delaney: I can recall, in the last decade, where the government of the day chose to make the provincial boundaries align with the federal boundaries. At that time—it was shortly before I was first elected—I thought to myself, “I’m not sure whether this is a good idea or a bad idea.” But I know our party leader then—then in opposition, later in government—Mr. McGuinty, said, “We’re willing to accept that to a point, but one of the points on which we differ is on northern representation.” And at that time, Mr. McGuinty said—and convinced the party, not merely the members but the broader party—“We’ve got to do a more thorough job in the north.”

The very eloquent and rather lengthy but certainly comprehensive statement by my colleague from Timmins–James Bay certainly filled in some of those gaps that I thought of, and I thought it was a very thoughtful presentation. It’s something to consider along with the issues that came out of the Far North Electoral Boundaries Commission, which is an independent commission. It wasn’t there to be controlled by the government or to take direction from the government. It was there to table recommendations to the government. It was intended to be fair and impartial. It was intended to focus on local needs. I have to say, I didn’t take

part in that commission, so I can only read the outcome. Certainly, when my colleagues from the Far North speak on it, I’m very, very interested in it. As a province, as a society, it’s our job to make, going forward, a more thorough and inclusive process than we had in the past.

I want to thank the member for his comments, which I found to be very instructive.

I look forward to this process as it moves forward.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Back to the member from Timmins–James Bay for final comments.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, the unfortunate truth is that we used to have 15 ridings in northern Ontario, then along came Michael Harris, who took five seats away from the north. We’ve been reeling from that decision ever since. It means five less members here in the assembly, five less members on committee, five less members capable of going to cabinet in order to advocate for northern Ontario. We’re still feeling the effects of what five lost northern ridings were to northern Ontario, thanks to Mike Harris and the Conservatives.

This legislation creates two new ridings in northern Ontario. We have to vote for that. You can never vote against two new ridings in northern Ontario, no matter what the configuration is, as I say.

Do the people of Timmins like the proposal? Do the people of Hearst and Kapuskasing like the proposal? Of course they do. You’re going to be creating a riding of 43,000 people in Timmins, and you’re going to be creating a riding—uniquely Highway 11, Hearst down to Smooth Rock Falls. Of course they like it. If you send the committee there, people will say they like it; there’s no question.

But we have to remember what this legislation was supposed to be. It was supposed to be about creating two Far North ridings north of Highway 11 so that the First Nations people are able to elect their own into the Legislature, so that they’d be a majority within their own ridings, thus enhancing the chances of being able to elect First Nations members to this assembly.

If we’re really serious about reconciliation, this is an action that we can take in this Legislature to make sure that we elect in the next election—by making changes in committee when this thing finally goes to clause-by-clause, to making the boundaries conducive with electing two northern members from the Far North who are First Nations to this Legislature.

So I urge people to put whatever pressure they can on all members of this assembly to make sure we don’t play politics with this, that we don’t start saying the commission has to go to Timmins or wherever. We know the people of Timmins like this. The people who need to be heard are the Mushkegowuk people. Let’s go to their territory and hear from them.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): It is now almost 10:15. This House stands recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1012 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): At this time, I would like to do some introductions. Here for a tribute that is being paid, in the Speaker’s gallery, is the former Premier of the province of Ontario, Mr. Michael Harris. Welcome, Premier.

Mr. Norm Sterling is here as well.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That’s the oddest thing I’ve ever heard: heckling during an introduction.

In the members’ gallery, the member for Kitchener Centre in the 38th, 39th and 40th Parliaments, John Milloy, is also with us.

Now it’s time for introductions from the members.

Mr. Lorne Coe: It’s my pleasure to introduce to the Legislature Deborah MacLatchy, the president and vice-chancellor of Wilfrid Laurier University, and some of the students from Laurier as well. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Paul Miller: The family got some good news last night. My niece Lindsay Lockwood has been named Queen of the Calgary Stampede for 2018. Lindsay will be doing her year as Queen, and then she’s going to medical school.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I’d like to welcome representatives of the Ontario Pharmacists Association to the Legislature today. I’d also like to specifically recognize Deb Saltmarche, OPA board member and a constituent of mine in St. Paul’s.

I urge all of you to visit the evening reception in the Legislative dining room to discuss matters of importance to pharmacists in Ontario.

Mr. Robert Bailey: I’d like to introduce, from my riding, Ms. Connie Beck, program coordinator at Lambton College for the pharmacy technician program. She’s here at Queen’s Park today with the Ontario Pharmacists Association.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: It’s my delight to introduce Mr. Brandon Tenebaum, a constituent of mine. He’s here’s with the Ontario Pharmacists Association. Welcome.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: Please help me in wishing a very happy birthday to my parliamentary assistant, the member from Barrie. Her birthday is today.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I’d like to introduce Mike Cavanagh from Kawartha Lakes Pharmasave. I’m proud to say that he’s the chair of the Ontario Pharmacists Association. I welcome him here today.

M me France Gélinas: I have visitors from all the way up north: Carlo Berardi, who is a pharmacist in my riding; as well as Tanner Warren, who is from Sudbury but studying pharmacy in Toronto. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Daiene Vernile: Speaker, you introduced former MPP John Milloy from Kitchener Centre, and I’m glad to see him here. I’m going to introduce some of his students who are here with him today: Sharon, Michelle, Brittany, Kristen, Ravneet, Anthony, Chris, Mitchell, Jacob, Zaher, Isaac, Lisa, Naime, So, Selena, Amanda, Aidan, Aqsa, Michael, Johannes, Jesse, Christopher and Thomas—sorry about the first names, but I want to get through this quickly—and Professor Patricia Goff, and also Maria Papadopoulos, who is the director of government relations at WLU. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Ross Romano: I would also like to welcome to Queen’s Park one of my constituents from Sault Ste. Marie, Mr. Allan Braido. If we could all welcome Mr. Braido, please. He is here with his colleagues from the Ontario Pharmacists Association, which I’d also like to extend my welcome to. In fact, Mr. Braido’s son and my son went to school together last year, so I just want to welcome him.

Ms. Catherine Fife: I hope all members of the Legislature take the opportunity to drop into Wilfrid Laurier’s reception this evening, 5 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. in room 230. You will not be disappointed.

Mr. Bob Delaney: I am pleased to introduce two folks who live on Hargood Place in Streetsville: Lou Grindatio and his grandson, Luke, who are making their first visit to a question period. Please welcome them.

Mr. Randy Hillier: I’d like to take this opportunity to introduce a constituent of mine who is here today with the Ontario Pharmacists Association, Ms. Jennifer Baker.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I’d like to introduce and welcome Mr. Tim Brady, who is a member of the board of the Ontario Pharmacists Association. Welcome here to Queen’s Park and to question period.

Mr. Ted McMeekin: I’d like to introduce Helene and Jesse Arruda, the parents of page captain Michael Arruda, who are here with us this morning.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: I’d like to introduce two members of Ontario Racing who are here today: Hugh Mitchell and Mike Chopowick. They’re having a reception in room 228 at 11:30.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I’d like to introduce my good friend Sean Simpson. He’s here as a pharmacist, but also he just opened up his new store in Niagara Falls last week. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

I’d also like to introduce Tom Valiquette, who is the chief operating officer and chief financial officer of Fort Erie live racing. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Jeff Leal: In the east members’ east gallery, I’d like to welcome members of Ontario Racing who are in the House today: Hugh Mitchell, who is the chair; Ryan Dupuis, who is the senior director for finance; Mike Chopowick, who is the acting executive director for Ontario Racing; and Gavin Van Elsberg, who is a staff member with Ontario Racing.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I think most of the pharmacists have been introduced, but I’d like to introduce the pharmacists in the Legislature, I know they have some great proposals for this government to act on. I just to want say hi to Sean Simpson, the past president of OPA, who did a wonderful job—best of luck to Mike in the upcoming year—and, of course, to my classmate Brandon Tenebaum, who has all the nice stories about me if you want to talk to him.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: I had a great meeting this morning with the pharmacists from the Ontario Pharmacists Association, but specifically I’d like to introduce Mr. Sherif Guorgui, who is from the great riding of Oakville.

Mr. Joe Dickson: I’d like to introduce in the west gallery, rather than the east gallery, Bob Broadstock, president of Quarter Racing Owners of Ontario, and Emilio Trotta, the CEO of Ajax Downs. They’re here with many other horse people today in reference to the Ontario Racing reception between 11 and 1 o’clock, in rooms 228 and 230.

Mr. Han Dong: I would like to introduce Hitesh Pandya to the House. Mr. Pandya is a board member of the Ontario Pharmacists Association and a constituent of mine in the great riding of Trinity–Spadina. Welcome, Mr. Pandya.

Mr. Yvan Baker: I’d like welcome to Queen’s Park in the east gallery Peter Werhun. He’s a first-year student at Osgoode Hall Law School, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s sitting here in this chamber one day. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Arthur Potts: From the equally great riding of Beaches–East York: Eric Morrison, pharmacist. Welcome.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: I have a number of guests to introduce here this morning. This week, Casa Das Beiras Cultural Community Centre is hosting their cultural week in my riding of Davenport. Joining me here today at Queen’s Park is president Bernardino Nascimento and guests from Portugal, from the brotherhood of Beira Grão Vasco de Viseu—Confraria Saberes e Sabores da Beira Grão Vasco de Viseu—are Jose Ernesto, Antonio Meneses and Mario Antunes.

Also accompanying the group here today is a large contingent of young students from the University of Coimbra, the oldest university, perhaps, in the world, established in 1290. Part of the contingent here today is the Estudantina Universitária de Coimbra: David Pinto, Daniel Monteiro, Rui Cruz, Diogo Mendes, Pedro Ventura, Bruce Carrulo, Miguel Luis, Gonçalo Oliveira, Francisco Cruz, Carlos Pinho, Mauro Silva, Pedro Nolasco, Michael Esteves, Bruno Sacramento, Tiago Rocha, Emanuel Nogueira and Nuno Lopes. Welcome to Queen’s Park. Bem-vindos, and enjoy your day.

Mr. Arthur Potts: I also think we should recognize Gord Martineau, who’s in the Speaker’s gallery. Gord Martineau and I are fellow panellists on 1010 radio.

Hon. David Zimmer: A constituent of mine is here in the assembly: Louis Wei, who is the Ontario Pharmacists Association student representative.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Today our page captain, Gregory Bannister, is visited by his parents, Patricia and Marc Bannister, from the lovely riding of Brant; brother Alexander Bannister; grandmother Carol Gamble; uncle Mike Bannister; and family friend Stephanie Villano. Please welcome them to Queen’s Park. Thank you for being here.

Also, would the members please join me in welcoming the family of the late Edward Michael Havrot, MPP from Timiskaming during the 29th, 31st and 32nd Parliaments, who are seated in the Speaker’s gallery: daughter Cathy, daughter Sharon Martineau and her husband Gord.

Again, our visitors, former members who are here: Welcome to Queen’s Park and thank you for being here.

Edward Havrot

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I will now turn to the government House leader for a point of order.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent to recognize the former member of provincial Parliament from Timiskaming, Mr. Edward Havrot, with a representative from each caucus speaking for up to five minutes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader is seeking unanimous consent to pay tribute to the former MPP from Timiskaming for up to five minutes. Do we agree? Agreed.

Our first contributor: the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane.

Mr. John Vanthof: Thank you, Speaker. It’s always an honour to be able to stand in this House and represent the good people of Timiskaming–Cochrane, and especially so today, to pay tribute to a former member for the riding of Timiskaming, Mr. Ed Havrot.

Ed Havrot was born on January 4, 1927, and passed away on April 16, 2017, in his 90th year. He leaves behind his wife of 65 years, Gayle; daughters Joanne Phillips and her husband Lloyd, Catherine, Barbara Havrot and her partner David Erickson, and Sharon Martineau and her husband Gordon; and 11 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren. Welcome to those family members who attended today.

Mr. Havrot’s family emigrated from Poland in 1930, when he was three. The family arrived in Kirkland Lake, where his father went to work in the mines. Ed started his career in the forestry sector. He then purchased Northern Canada Bakery. Many people have fond memories of Ed in his bakery days, especially the deliveries, and staying open for extra orders. He then owned and operated the Teck Hotel—another people-oriented business.

Throughout his adult life, Ed was heavily involved with volunteer organizations in Kirkland Lake. He was an honorary life member of the Doric Lodge. He was also deeply committed to his local United Church. Ed especially enjoyed spending time at the family cottage on Sesekinika Lake.

Mr. Havrot’s interest in the welfare of his neighbours and customers was likely one of the reasons that he entered the political arena. He was a councillor, and later reeve, of the township of Kirkland Lake. He ran for the provincial seat of Timiskaming in 1971 under the Progressive Conservative banner. He was successful and sat in the 29th Parliament. He was defeated in 1975, but was re-elected in the 31st and 32nd Parliaments. He ended his provincial political career as Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Ed Havrot was a product of his time and his surroundings. Immigrants came from all over the world to work in the mines and mills of the north. They were more focused on improving the living conditions of their families than on being politically correct. Ed Havrot reflected this fact. MPP Havrot was a maverick who shot from the hip. This characteristic, coupled with an incredible sense of humour, can cause problems in the political arena. As I was going over some of the news articles, it occurred to me that he must have been a communications nightmare for the governing Tories.

I am sure his remarks were always awaited with bated breath, with political damage control measures ready to be implemented, and sometimes those measures were taken.

Locally, his off-the-cuff style endeared him to his supporters. He was not a fence-sitter. His constituents did not have to guess what he was thinking about on any given issue, and there was always that wicked sense of humour. The same qualities that caused so much concern in Queen’s Park were his biggest attributes at home.

In his era, local elections were hard-fought affairs, mostly between the PCs and the NDP. Provincial interest in Timiskaming politics was at an all-time high. As far as I know, the only time that the Queen’s Park press gallery attended a nomination meeting in Timiskaming was for the PCs in 1975. The successful candidate? Ed Havrot. Although he ultimately lost that election, he came back to win the next two.

Ed Havrot had an enormous impact on politics in Timiskaming. He remained active and interested for many years, and though I often disagreed with him, I respected the fact that you always knew where he was coming from.

In closing, I would like to thank the Havrot family for sharing Ed with the province. Political life is difficult, and no member can serve without the full support of their loved ones. If the measure of a life in public service is to bring the issues faced by your constituents to the attention of the province and to force debate on those issues, however uncomfortable that may be, Ed Havrot’s tenure as a member of provincial Parliament was not spent in vain. Thank you.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further tributes?

Mr. James J. Bradley: I’m delighted to have the opportunity to pay tribute to Ed Havrot on this occasion, particularly in view of the fact that some of his colleagues from years gone by and certainly the family are here. We do welcome to the Legislature Norm Sterling, a long-serving member of the Legislature, elected when I was, on June 9, 1977; and of course Mike Harris, who represented the Nipissing riding; and John Milloy more recently.

All of us look back. I had the opportunity to serve during the period of time that Ed Havrot was in the House and recognized him when I saw one of the headlines that referred to him as “Renegade.” You would be interested to hear that it says, “Last night, Havrot, who looks like a middle-aged Fonzie, said he won because people in his riding want something done about the 15% rate of unemployment.” He did look like Fonzie, and some of us who remember him remember he always had the toothpick in his mouth as well, and a smile on his face. He had the Premier of the day on pins and needles at all times as to what Ed might say.

He was the member for Timiskaming. It’s a constituency that is larger than most of the southern constituencies, one that has some very special challenges. Certainly you could say that he was the consummate constituency representative, a representative well of his constituency in particular and the north in general.

Those who are elected in southern ridings, particularly those who are in urban southern ridings, rely upon members of the Legislature from northern Ontario to tell us about the special circumstances and problems confronting their communities and residents, and the potential solutions to those problems. Certainly, Ed Havrot was always prepared to do just that, whether we asked him to or not. That was again something that was a mark of Ed Havrot: He was prepared to share those views on all occasions.

He brought to the deliberations of the Legislature an interesting background—a business background as managing director of two lumber companies, owner of a bakery and hotel, and he was able to view many of the problems through the lens of an individual who had to meet a payroll, first of all, and deal with the challenges that confront businesses, especially under the special circumstances facing northerners in our province. Those who serve the north know there are special circumstances. The former Premier of Ontario, Mike Harris, being from the north, recognized that.

Now many who have served in the Legislature began their careers in municipal politics at that level, and it’s the one that I think we concede is closest to the people. Ed Havrot served as both a councillor and a reeve of the town of Kirkland Lake. During that period of time, he was able to hear really on a first-hand basis, not through any filter, the concerns of his constituents. He was also able to identify the role that the provincial government could play in assisting his municipality in the heart of northern Ontario.

Timiskaming has never been an easy riding to win, but in 1971, 1977 and 1981, Ed Havrot was able to put his riding clearly in the PC column.

There’s an interesting editorial that appeared in the North Bay Nugget, that well-known newspaper in northern Ontario. It was dated March 20, 1981. That was the day after the Progressive Conservative Party had gone from minority status to majority status. I remember being reminded in opposition—because, as you know, when you’re in minority status, you have more influence—by the government of the day about what we referred to as the realities of March 19. The Premier of the day, Bill Davis, did use that terminology once in a while.

I’d like to share, shall I say, selectively from the editorial on that occasion. It really captures a lot about Ed and why he was endeared to the people of his riding. It reads as follows:

“Tough, rough, abrasive, the perennial bad boy of the Progressive Conservative Party. Ed Havrot has been called all these things (and a lot worse by the Toronto news media) but he won again in Temiskaming....

“Mr. Havrot’s victory will not be understood by the Toronto news media, which at its most charitable has condemned him for perpetual foot-in-mouth disease....

“But Mr. Havrot, once a baker, once an accountant, once a hotel keeper, knows the character of the people he represents....

“But, give him his due. He has worked hard for his riding and his rough and tumble style seems to suit Temiskaming.

“It must also be said that Mr. Havrot’s victory is another example of the political pragmatism that has long distinguished his riding” of Timiskaming.

He points out further in the editorial: “Prominent federal Liberals flocked to Mr. Havrot’s banner, while municipal politicians vied to endorse him. In an area that is short of jobs and opportunities, there is not much sympathy for niceties of philosophy or style. Getting the goodies from Queen’s Park is the name of the game, and Mr. Havrot plays it well....

“A diplomat he isn’t. But the Davis government needs new blood, and the Ontario civil service needs much stronger political direction. Premier Davis might do a lot worse if he selected Mr. Havrot to run some government ministry that desperately needs shaking up and new leadership.

“By winning again, Mr. Havrot has proven that he deserves a second chance.”

I thought that editorial captured—and I didn’t read the whole editorial because of time constraints and other reasons. It captures really what Ed was about.

Indeed, Mr. Davis did choose him for a number of portfolios that my friend from the Conservative Party will mention just shortly, so we’re not repetitious, but he was chosen for and served on a number of committees here in the Legislative Assembly.

As the previous member for Timiskaming said, we thank the family of Ed Havrot for sharing him with us. It’s a real challenge for families to do so, to have members away, to have members attending to so many specific responsibilities. I think those in the north know it’s particularly challenging in the north when you’re some distance away, the riding is large and the distance from Queen’s Park to the northern riding is substantial.

Ontario is a large and diverse province. Each of us, as elected members, endeavours to represent our constituents. Ed Havrot, for the most part, reflected the views of a significant number of residents in Timiskaming during the time he served. For that, he was rewarded with re-election to this House.

Each one of us pays tribute to members who have served in the past. We, as members, know the responsibilities that are onerous on members and we know how important it is, yes, what we do in this House, yes, what we do for the province as a whole, but Ed Havrot understood that first and foremost, you’re responsible to the people of your constituency; and he served them well.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further tribute?

Mr. Robert Bailey: I rise today as well to honour a former member of our legislative family at Queen’s Park, Mr. Edward Michael Havrot, who passed away earlier this spring in his 90th year, on April 16, 2017. At his side was his dedicated and loving wife of 65 years, Gayle. Ed is survived by his brother and sister, Ted and Anne; his beloved daughters Joanne, Catherine, Barbara and Sharon; 11 grandchildren; five great-grandchildren; and many nieces and nephews.

Mr. Havrot—Edward to everyone, or Ed—was born in Poland, but came to Canada with his family as a child in 1930. His father found work as a hard rock miner and the family settled in Kirkland Lake, the town that Ed would call home for the rest of his life.

After graduating from high school, Edward found work in the local lumber industry. Eventually he branched out on his own and purchasing the Northern Canada Bakery in Kirkland Lake. At this bakery, like all small business owners, Edward took

part in completing many different tasks, including delivering bread to corner stores and homes. He enjoyed this immensely as it gave him the opportunity to talk with customers, neighbours and friends, and to learn what was going on in their lives.

Edward came to be known for being hard-working, straightforward and plain-spoken, something the people of Kirkland Lake respected. Friends and colleagues remember him for his great sense of humour, his quick wit and generosity. He always was known for being ready with a good story to tell.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Havrot a number of years ago in the presence of another legend, Mr. Lorne Henderson. I was at some event and Mr. Henderson was there. He introduced me to Ed. I never thought I would be here today doing this tribute. Maybe it was ironic, I guess, that we met at that time and now I’m here today.

In 1966, Edward Havrot ran for Kirkland Lake council and served two years as a councillor and one year as a reeve before jumping into provincial politics. In 1971, Ed was elected as the member of provincial Parliament for the riding of Timiskaming as a member of the Progressive Conservative Party that year. He served for three terms, from October 1971 to September 1975, and upon re-election in June 1977 until 1985.

His colleagues in the Progressive Conservative caucus and in the Davis cabinet would often consult with Ed on northern issues like mining, tourism and the forestry industry. Edward was always ready and willing to share “the straight goods,” as he liked to say. At Queen’s Park, MPP Havrot sat on various standing committees and briefly served as the Minister of Transportation and Communications between February 1985 and May 1985.

Prior to becoming the minister, he had been parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Transportation and Communications from March 1975 to November 1975. During his time as the parliamentary assistant, Mr. Havrot was outspoken regarding the safety of logging trucks, and used his position to push for increased enforcement of the provincial safety requirements, again sticking up, as Mr. Bradley said, for his constituents.

He also briefly served as chairman of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission, or the ONTC, a rarity for a sitting MPP. During his time as chairman, Ontario Northland was viewed as an incredibly important asset for the government, a $40-million-per-year train, truck, bus and ferry telecommunications network vital to those people of Ed’s riding in northern Ontario.

Like all of us in this province, myself included, Mr. Havrot was far from perfect. However, his frankness and fierce advocacy for the north and his constituents endeared him to many in his riding and in this Legislature.

For many years after leaving Queen’s Park, Ed Havrot held the distinction of being the longest-serving member of provincial Parliament for Timiskaming, with 12 years of elected service. He is remembered by those who knew him and loved him as an authentic, true-blue northern gentleman. That is how he should be remembered.

As a member of the Ontario PC caucus, I want extend my sincerest condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Havrot.

I did want to add to the record, being as he’s here with us today, some condolences that were sent to the funeral home at the time of Mr. Havrot’s death. This is from Norman Sterling, MPP, 1977 to 2011:

“To the Havrot family and friends: I served with Ed in the Legislature from 1977 to 1985. I found Ed to be a hard-working, informed and plain-spoken MPP. He was very knowledgeable of the mining, tourist and forestry industries of northern Ontario. After I was appointed to the Davis cabinet in 1981, I would often consult with him on northern issues to get the straight goods (as he would put it). Ed was in constant communication with all of his constituents regardless of their status and standing in the community.

I particularly enjoyed having lunch with him in the legislative dining room as he would always have a good story to tell. I enjoyed his friendship and will always remember our times together.”

To the family members who are here today, we thank you again for the contributions to Kirkland Lake, Timiskaming and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that Edward made over his lifetime. We thank you again for the support that you gave to him in the role he played in service to the people of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): As always, I would like to thank all of the members for their very warm and heartfelt comments about Ed.

I thank the family for being here, and I know for those who are not, they’re here in spirit. I would also like to remind you that we will make available for you a copy of the Hansard and a DVD for the family to share of these wonderful tributes.

Finally, again, thank you for the gift of Ed. We appreciated it very much.

Oral Questions

School facilities

Mr. Patrick Brown: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Humidex levels have been approaching the 40s this week. This hits home for me. My mother and my aunt have been lifelong educators in the city of Toronto.

Our schools don’t have the infrastructure or air conditioning. Students are saying it’s so hot in classrooms, they’re having trouble breathing. This is unacceptable in Ontario.

Interjections.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Mr. Speaker, rather than heckling, will the Premier commit here today that we’ll have a mandate for maximum temperatures for Ontario schools in the event of extreme heat?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Education is going to want to comment on the specifics.

I know that when a classroom is hot, it is uncomfortable for teachers and for students, Mr. Speaker. I recognize that, and it has been very, very hot. We understand that there have been concerns raised by students and parents and teachers.

We have worked to provide additional funds to schools because we recognize that the majority of schools in this province were built years ago, when we actually didn’t have on a regular basis the kinds of peak hot periods that we have now. We certainly didn’t have them in September. So that’s why there has been more money—$1.4 billion, actually—put into school boards so that they could make retrofits and they could provide supports to schools that were built in another day. That’s exactly why we’ve put those funds in place.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Back to the Premier: It’s another sweltering day in September. Yesterday, temperatures hit as high as 31, and with the humidex it made it feel in the 40s. Heat warnings have swept the area, yet classrooms don’t have air conditioning. We have classrooms that don’t have windows that can even open.

Sam Hammond from the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario had this to say: “Students and teachers in many classrooms are subject to unbearable conditions with temperatures over 30 degrees. That takes an unacceptable toll on teaching and learning.”

How has the Premier allowed this to happen? They’ve been in government for 14 years, and here we are with schools without air conditioning and with windows that can’t open.

I don’t want political spin. Will it be dealt with? Are kids going to continue to have to learn at temperatures that are unbearable?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I am as concerned as the Leader of the Opposition about the well-being of students in our schools and the well-being of teachers.

I know that one of the schools where the Leader of the Opposition’s mother was the principal was in my riding. It is a school that has had a huge new addition that has been built onto it in the time that we’ve been in government. That’s St. Bonaventure school in Don Valley West.

We have put billions of dollars into the hands of school boards. They have the knowledge of their schools; they need to have the flexibility to make the changes that are necessary. I understand that it is very hot right now, but I do believe that at the local level, schools need to have the flexibility to make decisions.

I have utmost faith in teachers and in principals. If there’s a situation that is dangerous for kids, they’re going to move those kids into the gym; they’re going to put fans in place; they’re going to do what’s necessary for those kids. I have great faith in our educators.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Back to the Premier: The Premier quotes these great renovations, and the Liberal caucus claps.

Here are the stats: There are 584 schools in the Toronto District School Board, and only 125 of those schools have air conditioning. That’s 584 schools, and 125 with air conditioning. Others have partial air conditioning or none at all.

Krista Wylie, from the parent group Fix Our Schools, said that if the Premier, “who I bet is sitting in an air-conditioned office right now, prioritizes our children as the future, then her government will prioritize our kids and start to look at our schools as the important infrastructure they really are.”

In the meantime, how can the Premier expect students to learn while they’re sitting in unbearable classrooms?

Mr. Speaker, again, rather than attacking others, rather than saying everything is fine, I ask the Premier: Will she mandate maximum temperatures for Ontario schools in the event of extreme heat? Yes or no?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I had to move a meeting yesterday from my office to another room because, actually, I don’t have air conditioning in all of the rooms in my office, nor, as it happens, do I have air conditioning in my house—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Agriculture, come to order.

Finish, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I recognize that it is very hot in schools that were built in a time when there weren’t the kinds of heat events that we have now, when there wasn’t the peak heat that we have now. That is exactly why we have put billions of dollars in the hands of school boards: to make changes, to make sure that they do the retrofits which are happening across the province.

I’m not in any way saying that that work is completely done. But, again, I have a lot of faith in the educators in our schools to make sure that children and teachers are kept safe.

Northern Ontario

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Premier. Northern Ontario is an absolute gem. While I’m disappointed that the Liberal member from Northumberland–Quinte West has neglected to apologize for his hurtful comments referring to northern Ontario as “no man’s land,” it’s time we turned this negative story into a positive.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, I’ve been to northern Ontario 27 times since being elected leader of the Ontario PCs. The north has so much to offer. From beautiful landscapes to a dynamic population, the north truly has limitless potential in fields ranging from tourism to resource development.

I always see the greatness of northern Ontario, and I understand just how important it is for Ontario for the north to prosper, because when the north prospers, Ontario prospers.

Will the Premier and the member from Northumberland–Quinte West give me the pleasure of joining me on one of my northern tours this fall?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): And this is precisely why we have a problem. I would remind us all, let’s raise ourselves.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think we all recognize that the member for Northumberland–Quinte West is one of the best-respected members in this House. He is a fine man. He has travelled this province. He has been in every corner of this province. He has worked hard, particularly to represent—even when he wasn’t a member. In the interim period when he wasn’t a member, he was travelling this province, gathering information from rural and northern communities to inform the policies that we have put in place.

Then, unlike the members opposite, he actually voted to increase the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund to an unprecedented $100 million a year. He voted to invest $1 billion in the Ring of Fire. He voted to increase the northern highways program by $90 million, bringing it to $648 million annually. He voted to give Ontarians in rural and northern communities up to 50% off their electricity bills—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Supplementary? The member from Sault Ste. Marie.

Mr. Ross Romano: To the Premier: My home of Sault Ste. Marie has—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation will come to order.

Another plea: Let’s ensure that we elevate ourselves instead of spiralling down.

Please.

Mr. Ross Romano: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My home of Sault Ste. Marie has overcome its fair share of challenges. We are a city filled with breathtaking tourist attractions that embody our natural beauty made famous by the Group of Seven. We are a city that produced incredible people who have had a significant impact on our Canadian culture and our identity: people such as Roberta Bondar, the first woman ever to fly in space; Canada’s Governor General David Johnston; NHL hall of famers, Ron Francis, and Tony and Phil Esposito; gold medallists Brad Jacobs, and Ryan and E.J. Harnden; and Paralympic gold medallist Mac Marcoux.

Even Sir William Howard Hearst, the seventh Premier of Ontario, began his career in Sault Ste. Marie. Wayne Gretzky’s number 99 was born in Sault Ste. Marie. I could go on.

So, Premier, please, would you permit the member from Northumberland–Quinte West to join me to celebrate our natural beauty and our rich history in Sault Ste. Marie and see what a great contribution we provide to Ontario?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Hon. Bill Mauro: Thank you for the question. I guess some congratulations are in order. First, perhaps to the leader of the official opposition, who actually almost made it through that question without smiling. He just about got there. I don’t think he quite made it.

Also, congratulations to the member from North Bay, who I think is doing his best to create a headline, try and grab a headline. I understand you’ve actually been successful in getting a headline or two on this issue, so I absolutely congratulate you—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): To the Chair, please.

Hon. Bill Mauro: —for this ridiculous narrative. Anybody who’s been paying attention to what’s going on here since 2003 understands very completely the distinction and the difference that has come from this party since we’ve been in government relative to what happened between 1995 and 2003. Nobody else is buying your nonsense. That’s all I have to say.

Perhaps, if I could, a little bit of advice for the member from Sault Ste. Marie. Just because they ask you to ask questions like this, you don’t have to do it. You don’t have to—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Time’s up. Be seated, please.

Final supplementary? The member from Nipissing.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Good morning, Speaker. Back to the Premier: The north is home to a vibrant aerospace and tech industry, health and education sector, and a marriage of tourism and resource development. I’m personally inviting the member from Northumberland–Quinte West to visit us. Join me as we paddle the historic La Vase River together. We’ll start in Trout Lake and paddle by folks who are catching their dinner. Then we’re going to have to portage a fair bit, Lou. We’ll pass Fabrene industries, one of the region’s largest manufacturers and global exporters. We’ll pull in at Billy Bob’s Bait for one of the best burgers you’ll ever—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Look, I’ve been calmly trying to seek everyone’s co-operation with this line. If this continues, I’m going to take a break and ask that cooler heads prevail. I have to tell you, it is disappointing that I have to ask this.

Carry on, please.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: As I said, we’ll pull in at Billy Bob’s for one of the best burgers you’ll ever have. We’ll end up at Lake Nipissing in the same spot discovered by the First Nations a thousand years ago and shared with Samuel de Champlain 400 years ago.

I ask the Premier: Will she encourage her members to end their arrogance, to come to Nipissing and change their view of the north?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Minister?

Hon. Bill Mauro: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: It’s great to have two northern Ontario ministers talking about how great northern Ontario is, Mr. Speaker.

Also, I would like, too, Mr. Speaker, to take you on a stroll through fantastic northern Ontario. As the opposition party members should know, we have 100,000 more people with expanded broadband throughout the north, a $32-million investment made by this government. As you continue to stroll between North Bay and Sturgeon Falls, you’ll see road construction with a BuildON sign that shows that this government is continuing to invest in northern Ontario.

As you work your way to Sault Ste. Marie and see the nearly $6 billion that we’ve invested since 2003 in the northern highways program, health care, seven new hospitals—I was just in Sault Ste. Marie making an announcement about more funding coming to the Soo from this government. We have continued to invest in beautiful northern Ontario. We will continue to do so every single time they vote against it.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

New question.

Government advertising

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. Yesterday, the minister of energy defended the $5.5-million hydro ad campaign by saying, “It’s important for the government to inform the public of government programs and help them to budget.”

How much money did the Liberal government spend in the last decade or so to help people budget for the 300% increase in hydro rates?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, let me just say that it is important for people in this province to know about the programs that are in place. On electricity pricing, for example, the OESP that is in place to support low-income Ontarians, on top of the 25% reduction they have seen over the summer: It’s important that people know about those programs.

I’ve met people who are no longer students, but who want to go back to school. They didn’t know that they were eligible for free tuition.

So whether it’s advertising about the fair hydro plan or whether it’s advertising about the changes to OSAP, it is important that everyone in Ontario knows what is available to them so that they can access programs that will help them in their lives. That’s what the advertising is about, whether it’s about tuition or lower electricity prices.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: These ads are a desperate attempt by the Liberal government to put out ads that are very similar to campaign ads. They are trying to convince the people of Ontario that they are doing something to reduce their bills when we know that’s not the case. They do not inform Ontarians of any action or program that they can actually sign up for as a result of this particular ad.

In fact, the advertisements about the low-income support program that the Premier references are a separate package of ads, and they sure as heck weren’t funded at the $5.5-million price tag that the more partisan ads the Liberals have put forward are.

Why is this Premier putting the interests of herself and her Liberal Party, once again, ahead of Ontario families who are struggling just to keep the lights on and put food on the table?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Energy will want to comment on the specifics of the ads—except to say, Mr. Speaker, let me just be clear that all those ads point people to a website that gives the information. I know the leader of the third party understands that you can’t put all the information in one ad.

But every one of those ads either gives some explicit information or points people to a website where they can get the information they need, whether it’s about a support program on lower electricity prices or whether it’s about how to access free tuition, or, in the case of the OHIP+, to make sure that people know that starting in January children from zero through to their 25th birthday will have access to free prescription medication.

People need to have that information because if they don’t know that, then they won’t know that all they need is their health card to go into a pharmacy and get their prescription filled.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, internal government documents confirm that the reason the Premier wanted this ad campaign was to “combat negative media coverage of rising electricity bills.” That was the purpose of these ads. That was the reason for this particular ad buy.

Can the Premier tell us how combatting negative media coverage for the Liberal Party will help Ontario families pay their soaring hydro bills?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I have been very clear that we recognized that electricity prices were going up too fast and too far. We had made billions of dollars of investment in the electricity system, and we recognized that what we were already doing—we had made changes. We had renegotiated the Samsung agreement, taken billions of dollars out of the system, but still there was more that needed to be done. So we made changes. We put new programs in place, like the OESP. We took a 25% reduction off people’s bills. We put programs in place for businesses.

We changed the parameters around the ICI program, which was originally for larger businesses and was then redesigned to accommodate smaller businesses.

Those pieces of information are available on the website. The ads drive people to the website so they can get that information. People need to know what their government is doing. They need to know how they can benefit. That’s what the advertising is about.

Government advertising

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. Yesterday, the President of the Treasury Board had a different explanation for why the Liberal government thought it was necessary to spend $5.5 million on these partisan ads. She said it was because people find their hydro bills quite confusing. Maybe the minister should spend more time actually speaking to Ontarians, because no one I’ve talked to is having any trouble understanding their bill. People are worried because their bills are too high. That’s the problem people have with their electricity bills.

When will this Premier stop spending money on partisan ads and actually do something to help people struggling to keep up with their sky-high hydro bills?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I don’t know if this will come as a surprise to the leader of the third party, but there are a number of things that government has to do at the same time.

Yes, we have reduced electricity bills by an average of 25%, for all the reasons that I outlined earlier. We knew that there were concerns. We knew that people were struggling with their bills. We had made changes, but it wasn’t enough so we have made further changes.

On top of that, I believe—and I have looked at many electricity bills from around the province, as has the Minister of Energy and a number of our colleagues, and they’re all different. They are confusing. Some of them are less confusing than others. I think that it is responsible that we would look at a way of simplifying those bills.

But that’s not the only thing that we’re doing. That’s part of the change. The primary change is to lower people’s electricity bills so that they can cope with those on a monthly basis.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The people of Ontario want a government that will actually lower their electricity bills, not spend millions and millions of public dollars on partisan ads talking about their $40-billion borrowing scheme that the Financial Accountability Officer says is going to cause the electricity rates in this province to jump even higher.

When will this government unveil the ad campaign to help Ontarians budget for the huge rate hikes that are coming down the road pretty quickly, as the FAO has warned about?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The people of Ontario have a government that has actually lowered their electricity prices. People, on average, have seen a 25% reduction this summer. In those rural and northern communities that we were just talking about in the House, people have seen up to a 40%-to-50% reduction because, on top of the electricity bill, the distribution cost was very, very high in many of those more remote communities, and that has been reduced.

That is the work that we have done. We have talked with consumers and experts all over this province. We have made those reductions. We will continue to work to find ways to support people, making sure that people on low incomes can pay their electricity bills and that businesses can pay their electricity bills.

People across this province have seen an average 25% reduction this summer.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The people of Ontario have a government that increased hydro rates by 300% and sold off Hydro One to their friends. That’s the kind of government that the people of Ontario have.

The Minister of Energy said that he thinks that these ads are necessary because they promote a program to help people pay for their soaring bills. That’s incorrect, Speaker.

Minister Sandals thinks that these ads are necessary because the people of Ontario don’t understand their hydro bills. That’s incorrect, Speaker.

These ads were designed with the express purpose of countering bad media coverage for the Liberal Party. Will the Premier admit that this ad campaign is designed to benefit her party and commit right now to stop spending money from the public purse on partisan ads that help her Liberal Party?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: The leader of the third party has it completely wrong. The only people who are benefiting from these ads are the people of Ontario, learning about the 25% reduction that each and every one of them is getting—along with the website. If they actually watch the ads, rather than just complain about them—but if they watch the ads and look at what’s in the ads, we are talking about the programs and we are talking about how to find out more information about how we’re reducing your rates even more, if you need more help. That help is included with the OESP program.

Just this month, another 5,100 people have signed up. That is important, because now we have over 232,000 people receiving the benefits that they need. And do you know what, Mr. Speaker? They’re getting this benefit despite the opposition. Despite the rhetoric that’s coming, they’re actually receiving help. This government will continue to put programs in place and let the people of Ontario know that these programs are there to help them.

Taxation

Mr. Monte McNaughton: My question today is to the Premier. Small businesses are the backbones of our communities, and yet Liberals do as they always do: attack them. Right now, the federal Liberals are pushing forward tax changes that would leave some in Ontario paying a tax rate of 73%. This push is despite 94% of small business owners saying that the Trudeau government’s tax changes will hurt Canadian businesses and their families. These tax changes could shutter stores along main streets across the province of Ontario.

Will the Premier help put an end to these dangerous Liberal tax hikes?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I am going to let the que