LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBL Y OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 22 Ju ne, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Prese nting Peti- tions . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... PRESENTI NG REPORT S BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMM ITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the thir d repor t of the Stand ing Comm ittee on law Amendments. MR. ACTING CLERK, G.

Mackint osh: Your Commit­ tee met on Thur sday, June 17 and Tuesday, Ju ne 22, 1982 and heard representa tions with respect to the Bills before the Committee as follows: Bill (No . 15) -A n Act to amend The Marital Proper ty Act. Ms Georgia Cordes - Y.W.C.A. Ms Jill Oliver - Manit oba Ass ociation for Righ ts and Liberties Mr. A. L. Clearwater - Private Citizen Mrs. Lauran ne Dow biggin - NOP Status of Women Mrs. Beth Kroll - Congr ess of Canadian Women, Winnip eg Ch apter Ms Jenn ifer Cooper - Manit oba Association of Women and the Law Ms Bernic e Sisler - Private Citizen Mr. Murray Smith - Private Citizen Mr.

Sam Malamud- Family Law Subsection, Mani­ toba Branch of the Canadian Bar Association Mr. K.G. Houston - Private Citizen Bill (No . 22) -

Loi sur la Fondation manitobaine des loteries. The Manit oba Lotteries Foundation Act. Mr. George Fraser - Private Citizen Mr. Sidney Green - Bingo En terprises Ltd. Mr. Walter Kucharczyk - Private Citizen Bill (No. 26) -

An Act to amend the Human Righ ts Act. Ms Tanis Cohen - Man itoba Association for Rights and Liberties Your Committee has considered: Bill (No. 28) -

An Act to amend Various Acts relating to Courts of the Provinc e. Bill (N o. 42) -

An Act to amend The Education Administration Act. Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'adminis­ tration scolaire. Bill (N o. 47) -

An Act to amend The Fisheries Act. And has agr eed to repor t the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered: Bill (No . 15 ) -

An Act to amend The Marital Pro perty Act. Bill (N o. 22) -

Loi sur la Fondation manitobaine des loteries. The Man itoba Lotteries Foundation Act. Bill (No. 26) -

An Act to amend The Human Righ ts Act. Bill (No . 37) -

Loi sur le Conseil de la recherche medicale du Man itoba. The Man itoba Health Research Council Act. And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Riel that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Stan ding Committee on Statutory Regu­ lations and Orders. MR.

ACTI NG CLERK: Your Committee met on Mon­ day, June 14, Tuesday, June 15 and Mon day, Jun e 21, 1982 and appointed Mr. Fox as Chair man. Your Committee agreed that a quorum for all future meetings of the Committee should consist of six (6) members. The Committee heard representa tions with respect to the Bills as follows: Bill (No. 2) - The Residential Rent Regu lation Act.

Loi sur le controle du loyer des locaux d'habit ation. Mr. Jack T. Mc Janne t, Q.C.- Man itoba Home­ builders Association Mr. David Newman- Manit oba Ass ociation for Righ ts and Liberties Mr. Murray Sig mar - President, Winn ipeg Real Estate Board Mr. Lewis Rosen berg - Private Citizen Mr. Doug Martind ale- Winnip eg Housing Con - cerns Group, Inc. Mr. Leslie Rohrin ger- Private Citizen Mr. Art Werier- Private Citizen Mr. Amie Thor steinson- Private Citizen Mr. Micha el J. No zick- President, Fairweather 3460 Properties Ltd. Mr. Graeme Haig- Man itoba Landlords Association Mr. Sid Silverman- F\rivate Citizen Mr.

Walter Kucharczyk- Private Citizen Mr. Ron Klassen- Manit oba Legal Aid Mr. Sam Lin hart- Lakeview Realty Mrs. Dan ita Onyebuchi - Crystal Properties Miss Lori Bell- St. Matthew s'/Mary land Commun­ ity Min istry Mr. Martin Bergen- Marlborough Development Corporation Ltd./Edison Rental Agency Mr. J.P . Borowski- Private Citizen Ms Karin L. Warkentin- Dart Holding Mr. A. Sek undiak- Private Citizen

Tuesday, 22 June, 1982 Mr. Ray Williams- Private Citizen Mr. Peter S. Thiessen- Thiessen Man agement Ltd. Bill (N o. 19 ) -

An Act to amend The Land lord and Tenant Act. Mr . Doug Martin dale- Winnipeg Housing Con­ cerns Group, Inc. Miss Lorraine Wh iffin- Private Citizen Miss Lori Bell- St. Matthews'/Maryland Commun­ ity Min istry Your Committee has considered: Bill (No. 20) -

An Act to amend the Con dominium Act. And has ag reed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move. seconded by the Hono urable Member for Riel. that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. NON- POL ITICAL STATEM ENT MR. SPEAK ER: The Honou rable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. with the concur­ rence of the House, I would like to make a statement of a non-pol itical nature. Mr. Speaker.

I wish to make a brief statement in honour of the happy occasion of the birth yesterday of a son to Their Royal High nesses, the Prince and Prin­ cess of Wales. Man itobans have a warm regard for the Royal Fam­ ily and I'm sure the birth has been greeted with joy and interest in our provin ce. I can inform the House that Manit oba's gift to the Royal Prince will be a special porcelain sculpture by Helen Gr ainger Young. Members will note the sculpture at the rear of the Chamber. It will be later taken to the rotunda for dis­ play.

It is from the same series as tha t which was presented to his parents and will be on display in the Leg islative Building until Canada's bir thday on July 1s t. It's an occasion of joy and celebration, a happy family event. and I'm sure tha t all members of this Ch amber will join with me in extend ing heartiest con­ gratulations to Their Royal Highn esses on the birth of the new Prince and may his future be blessed. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker. this is one of tho se very happy occasions when all members of the Opposition are pleased to join with the First Min ister and the Government and to associate ourselves with his comments of congratu lation; to share in the joy that I kno w is virtually unrestricted in all parts of the British Co mmonwealth today. at the happy news of the birth 3461 of the new Royal Princ e.

First of all, of course, our best wishes go to His Royal Highne ss, the Princ e of Wales, to Her Royal High ness, the Prin cess of Wales, and to the new Prin­ celing. who of course will be ultimately the King of Canada in many, many decades to come. I suppose. Sir, there are a nu mber of thoug hts that come to mind.

One, of course, is that it reinst ills in all of us and, indeed , in all people throug hout the world, the marvel of God's gift of life when it comes to a Royal Family on such an occasion when so many people thr oug hout the world can join in it, and when the miracle of birth can bring together again the hopes and the joys of so many people in so many different parts of the earth. It helps to reinstill in us that sense of unrestricted joy, as the First Minister has so properly said, in the beauty and the stability of family life.

So we do join in rejoicing in this great Royal birth, this great human occasion for all Can adians and for all members of the British Commonwea lth. It leaves us as well, Sir, to remark upon the marvellous continuity of the Br itish Crown and how, in these days of trouble and despair for some people, the continuity of the Crown remains in place. The certainty of the succes­ sion of the monarchy remains in place. This has so much to do I think in giving to our people, in this day and in the se trou bled times, that kind of hope that we so dearly need if we are to persevere and to carry on.

So we join with the First Min ister in tha nkin g God for the gift of life of the new Prince and, in particular. paying a tribute to the Royal Family; to Her Majesty, The Qu een; to His Royal High ness, Prince Philip and remarking as we always do in these occasions: GOD SAVE THE QUEEN. MR. SPEAKER: Min isterial Statements and Tabl ing of Reports . . Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Question period, may direct the attent ion of honourable members to the gallery where we have 16 students of Grade 6 standing of the Sir Joh n Franklin School under the direction of Mrs. Farr. The school is in the consti­ tuency of the Honourable Member for Tux edo. There are 20 students of Grade 5 standing from the Nor dale School under the direction of Mr. Elrick and Mrs. Diakiw. The school is in the cons tituency of St. Vital. On the behalf of all of the members here this after­ noon. I welcome you to the Chamber. PROCEDURAL STATEMENT MR.

SPEAKER: I have a shor t procedural statement to present to the House. On Friday, June 18, the Honourable Member for Virden rose in his place to object to the words, 'playing games.' uttered by the Honourable Minis ter of Agri­ culture and directed at the Opposition. Since the issue was raised by a former Speaker of the House. I took the matter under advisement in order to con sider the facts most carefully. A reference was made during the discussion to a former ruling and

my first objective was to compare the two matters for consistency. Beauch esne's Citation 322, refers particularly to an individual member's personal kno wledge respecting himself. When the Mem ber for Virden invoked the Privilege of the House, he thereby referred to the total­ ity of the Opposition members and was therefore out­ side the applicability of Citation 322. I have searched Beauc hesne's lists of unparliamen­ tary words and phrases without finding any reference to, "playing ga mes" or anything similar and I do no t recall in the last 12 years that the phrase has been a matter of procedural dispute.

Although the phrase. "playing games" has implica­ tions in politics that it does not have in other contexts, members should recall tha t the far more pejorative phrase, "the muffled cadence of jackboots" has not been ruled unparliamentary in this House. Alth ough I can no t conclude that the term, "playing games" is unparliamentary, I would strongl y urge the Min ister of Agricu lture to choose his words with the utmost of care and circumspection. ORAL QUESTI ONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Min ister.

Sir, following upon the ann ounc ement of last week of the indefinite postponement of the proposed Alcan smelter for Manit oba and faced today as we are with the unprecedented statement that has come from Alberta that Alberta intends to postpone its participation in any proposed Western Inter-Tie, can the First Min ister give any reassurance to the people of Man itoba that he and his govern ment are now work­ ing as they have never worked before to salvage the last of the three major projects, namely, Man itoba's first potash mine?

Can he otter that hope and reassu­ rance having seen in the last week two of the major projects go down the drain and the future of Manit oba be impaired in the way that it is? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would be hesitant to give any hope which might indeed be unfoun ded. I just happen to have an

article from The Leader Post, published just a couple of days ago, "Potash Mines' Fate Remain in Doub t," referring to the fact that there is no guarantee tha t the Cory, the Allan, the Lanigan and the Rocanville Potash Mines will reopen two months after the y're shut down this summer. So I think I would be most reckless indeed with informa­ tion such as that flowing out of the Prov ince of Saskatchewan.

Insofar as the very difficult situation their potash mines are in, to otter at this point in time with the internat ional recession the way it is now as affecting the economies throu ghout every part of the world in fact, any reckless hope. Mr. Speaker, I am hopeful that given time and given an improvement in economic and financial circumstances, there will be indeed a turnar ound in regard to the economy as same affects both large and small projects.

But with information 22 June, 1982 such as this, obviously with the information that 1, 200 potash miners have been laid off in the Prov ince of Saskatchewan is not a good time to talk about potash in Man itoba either. 3462 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, can the First Min ister give this House and the people of Manit oba some reassurance tha t he and his government will work as hard as they can to re-esta blish the position tha t was left to them on the 30th of No vember, 19 81 ?

With respect to the potash negotiations, Sir, there had been a signed Memorandum of Agreement which the NOP, Mr . Speaker, allowed to exp ire on the 15 th of Dece mber, 19 81 . Can he give the assurance to the House that, notwithsta nding the economic conditions of which we are all aware, at least that point of achievement can be reattained by this government, so tha t we move at least forward from the position of having a Memorandum of Un derstanding and of Agreement tor the establishment of Man itoba's first potash mine as and when it becomes economically feasible to do so? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, first, I think we should be conscious of the fact that there was no firm agreement in No vember or in October. My Min ister is meeting with IMC on Ju ly 8th or 9th, in which there will be real attempts and efforts in order to ensur e tha t the negotiations can carry on towards a successful completion. But again, Mr. Speaker, I would be less than frank, in view of the information that is forthcom­ ing, if I created any undue expectations. We will do our hardest.

I am as much disappointed as anyone else in this Chamber about the econ omic circumstances that Canadia ns are confr onting, par­ ticularly Manit obans. We will do all that is possible. My Min ister will be meeting IMC in July, but obviously, with what is happen ing next door in the Pro vince of Saskatchewan, it's going to be very difficult to hope. Certainly last fall, ther e were no layoffs of potash workers in Saskatchewan; ther e were no closures of mines, as indeed is taking place now in the Province of Saskatchewan. The economic circumstances have obviously deteriorated in the potash industry.

We ho pe to be able to put it together, in order at least to ensu re that when the potash market does improve - I'm sure that the economic recession is one tha t is of temporary nature and there will be recovery ­ that we'll be able to see substantial progress being made again in th e province toward potash and other developments; small, medium, and large. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the First Min ister.

Given the abject failure of negotia tions carried on by him and his colleagues in the last six months with respect to Alcan and no w faced with the news today of the abject failure of this government to be able to conclude an agreement that was left in their hands with respect to the Western Inter-Tie, I want to assure the First Min ister, first of all, Mr. Speaker, that he's not raising any expectations in Manit oba. He's dashing expectations in Man itoba, not ra ising them. All I want to do, Mr . Speaker, is to ask him to give

this one sliver of ho pe to the th ousands of people who were depen ding upon these jobs; to the business men in Man itoba who are look ing for the work that could have come from any one of these th ree projects, that he will work much harder than he has done up to the present time to re-establish the goodwi ll that was in place on the Memorandum of Un derstanding so that we can have at least that accomplishment with respect to the first potash mine in Manit oba. a Memoran dum of Un derstanding and agreement that as and when !t becomes economic to mine potash again that it will be mined in Manit oba. not in Saska tchewan or elsewhere.

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated earlier. we will do all that we humanly can to ensur e a satisfactory agreement that Manitobans indeed would support from negotiations that will involve the Minis ­ ter of En ergy and Mines. That's all that I can assure, that every effort will be undertaken to attempt to com­ plete a satisfactory agreement. I would like to make one further reference in respect to the Leader of the Opposition' s question in which he referred to, and I understand the Leader of the Oppo­ sition's trying to score.

I guess, some political points, but he referred to abject failure pertaining to the nego­ tiations involving the Alcan. I sat in a meeting with the President of Alcan. Mr. Mo rton, and I asked Mr. Mo r­ ton if he had any disagreements in respect to the manner by which the Province of Mani toba, under the present New Democratic Party Government, had car­ ried on its negotiations in particular reference to the efforts by the Min ister responsible. Mr. Speaker, it might interest members across the way to kn ow that Mr.

Mo rton said that he fou nd the Minis ter had handled those negotiations in an intelligent and rational manner. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker. I think we are all pre­ pared on this side of the House to ack nowledge that the President of Alcan is a very kind man and a cour­ teous man. Mr. Speaker.

I've always been a great believer that actions speak louder than words and when Alcan took up its options in Quebec 48 hours after the First Min ister had his meeting with the Presi­ dent of Alcan, tha t said a book's worth about the ability or inability of his Min ister of En ergy and Mines to do any legitimate negotiating on behalf of Man itoba. No w. Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that out of the th ree projects that were left to this government to complete negotia tions upon. two appear to be dead in the water. can the First Min ister give this House and the people of Manit oba some undertaking that he will instruct his Minis ter of Ener gy and Mines to change his methods of nego tiation and to get on with the business of pursuing the public interest in Man itoba? Or will he.

Sir. if he is not able to accomplish that purpose. change the Min ister and change the Deputy Min ister. who has been as much responsible for these failures as anyone . and put people of competence and good will into this position so that the future of Mani­ toba will not suffer any further? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in response to the question from the Leader of the Opposition and in particular reference to the corn ments by the Pres ident of Alcan. Mr. Mo rton. I do no t believe that Mr. Mo rton 22 June, 1982 3463 would mislead me. I believe that Mr.

Mo rton is hone st and frank and I disassociate myself from any infer­ ence otherwise that the Leader of the Opposition may have left in this Ch amber. So when Mr . Morton said that my Min ister was conducting the negot iations in a rational and intelligent manner , I believe Mr. Mo rton. I do not believe he was attempting to mislead me. Insofar as the acquisition of land, Mr. Mor ton also ex plained that very carefully I believe, not only to ourselves, but to members of the media that the land was under option.

It was adjacent to an existing struc­ ture that would require early renovation and change, a smelter, and that it was not a question of building a brand new smelter. Mr . Morton went on to point out to us that in other parts of the world, including Aust ralia, there had been a halt insofar as future smelter con­ struction. So let no one, for political reasons, Mr. Speaker, attempt to sugge st that there is any other reason beh ind the Alcan situation but a deepening of the economic recession througho ut the world, a weaken ing of the econ omy.

Let me say to the Leader of the Opposition, tha t as regrettable as it is to us all, the potash industry is also in a weak situation, world-wide. I hope that situation can be repaired. I hope when it is repaired that, indeed, ther e will be a government in the Province of Man itoba that will ensur e that Manit obans receive a satisfactory agreement, so that Man itobans can real­ ize maximum benefit from potash development when indeed there is a recovery in the world recession. Mr.

Speaker, to the thir d question, because the Leader of the Opposition had grouped his thr ee ques­ tions into one area of comment in regard to the agreements being 'dead,' I believe was the reference used, dead as -(I nterjection)- dead as what? Dead in the water. All that I can say to the Leader of the Opposition, the Alcan situation has been postponed and not canceled. It will certainly be picked up by the fact ther e is interest on the part of both the province and Alcan in the event of an economic recovery throughout the world .

The Inter-T ie, there are discus­ sions that are con tinuing on July 19 involving the Minis ters, which will be carried over into the Western Premiers' Conference later in September or October. I do not kn ow whether that transac tion will go ahead early or not. I suspect, because of the economic cir­ cumstances unf ortunately that Alberta has been plung ed into, and I think in the last six to eight months Alberta probably more than any other part of Canada has received a tremendous economic blow, regretta­ ble as it is; that Alberta's in an enti rely different situa­ tion now than it was even a few months ago.

So, Mr. Speaker, the challenge before us is to deal with the econ omic situation. In fact, I will have an opportunity to discuss some of my thoug hts in regard to that with the Governor of the Bank of Canada this afternoon, Mr. Bouey, when he attends at my office. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, now that the First Minis­ ter is beginning to ack nowledge what we told him some time ago, that Manitoba is in competition for new smelting capacity for Al can or for any other alum­ inum smelting company with other jurisdictions on the face of the earth; realizing as he must now tha t the addition of new capacity by Alcan, whether by way of expansion or whether by way of renewal of old

equipment, results in capacity being put in place, how can he stand in his place and say tha t the annou nce­ ment of last Thur sday with respect to land options being taken up in Qu ebec is not really the clincher of what any reasona ble people in this province already well kn ow, namely, tha t this gove rnment by its pigh­ eadedness; its refusal, Mr.

Speaker, to bargain in good faith with respect to owner ship of a Hydro plant; its refusal, Sir, to even agree to the site that had been previously selected by Alcan and to proceed with the environ mental studies which were already in place, tha t th ey have been one of the proximate causes of Man itoba not get ting tha t new capacity which is go ing to be put in place when economic circumstances permit? Having learned tha t lesson, will he not now transfer th at lesson to potash and realize th at he's got to get to the barg aining table in good faith and he's got to renew th at Memorandum of Un derstanding?

Will he give us the reassurance tha t he will fight to renew tha t Memorandum of Un derstan ding so that we will again have some hope for a potash mine in Man itoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, th ere is no require­ ment to assure tha t we will deal in good faith. Tha t is. indeed, taken for granted. Mr . Speaker, I find it regrettable th at the Leader of the Opposition contin ues to misrepresent and in fact to distort - and I fear for cheap political points and that's all I can say - to attempt to create somethin g tha t does not exist, because I read very carefully the press interview of Mr. Mo rton. Mr.

Mor ton, the President of Alcan, was asked spe­ cifically, is ther e anythin g tha t the gov ernment could do to cha nge your mind at this given time? The ans wer by Mr. Mo rton was very, very clear -(l nterjection)­ no, because we are confront ed with the intern ationa l recession. I don't kn ow whe ther honour able members across the way appear to be still eith er, (

a) living in the time frame of a year ago or whe th er indeed they are. and I hesitate to suggest this, but sometimes it appears. Mr. Speaker. that there is an inward sense of some glee th at th ey feel the y can score some cheap political points out of the present ec onomic circum­ stances that were confronted. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table in this Chamber because it may be, in fairne ss to the Leader of the Opposition, tha t he has not had an opportun ity to study the documents that Alcan left with us pertaining to price forecasts. pertaining to the world situation.

I would like to table this in the House because I believe that the Leader of the Opposition and members across the way are unfortun ately very misinformed, appear to be very misinformed. It may indeed be, Mr . Speaker, our fault that we have improperly explained to members across the way the message tha t Alcan provided. Mr . Speaker, I would suggest tha t honou rable members would be much better to join with all Manit­ obans in recogn izing tha t we're in the grip of a serious recession along with the rest of the world and it requires us to pull shoul der to shoul der during these economic -(I nterjection)- Mr.

Speaker, I don't intend to. as I have pointed out in previous occasions. attempt to out shout members across the way. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker. it is time indeed tha t, rather than us tryin g to score - and ther e may be times tha t we all do this - it is now urge nt tha t we pull shoul der to shoul der as Canadians and as Man ito­ bans in order to provide some constructiv e ideas as to how we can pull ourselves out of the econ omic diffi­ culties that this land is confronted with. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, it was just as urgent a year ago when the announc ement of Alcan coming to Manit oba was met by harangues from the then Oppo­ sition and the NOP with statements of nonsupp ort, tha t they would never sell a portion of the plant to Hydro. all of tho se thi ngs tha t registered, I daresay, with Al can . Th at's when the shoul der to shoul derne ss was needed and my honou rable friends displayed then how much concern they have about the public interest of Man itoba. I merely say to the First Min ister and ask the First Min ister today, Mr.

Speaker, to recover what he can from this mess that he and his gov ernment have created out of the three projects. Will he now cha nge course and start nego tiating in good faith with IMC and re-establish the position of the Memoran dum of Un derstandin g which was in place on the 30th of No vember, 19 81 , so tha t Manitobans can have some hope that one, now, of these projects will at least come abo ut? I say th at to him, Sir, without allegi ng on his

part cheap sh ots or anything at all because I am quite content, Sir. to let history be the judge of who has misrepresented these projects to the people of Mani­ toba, the Opposition or this incompetent government. 3464 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. I am goin g to respond, but I believe it will be the fourth time to the same question. Mr. Speaker, I think tha t it is most unwise for any gov ernment at any particular time to build irres­ ponsi ble hope.

I fear indeed tha t was the case, before agree ments were firmed up, tha t the previous gov­ ernment created a hope which was not properly estab­ lished and firmed up by way of firm contr act. Mr . Speaker, if the previous government, had it proceeded in a businesslike manner, rather than in a manner whic h was brought about only because the y were desperate in the days and weeks leading up to the last election, they would have created more reasona ble expectation rather than to, in a state of hyste ria as they did, create an expectation before that expecta­ tion was properly firmed up by way of agree ment.

Tha t's where the mistakes lie, Mr . Speaker. HON. S. LYON: Well then, Mr. Speaker , I'm con­ strained to ask the First Min ister, who gets off into these odysseys of his own revision ist history, why it was tha t his mentor, the former Premier of Saskat­ chewan, said on October 23, 19 81 about the Western Inter-Tie which we hear is scuttled today because of the ineptness of this government in its failure to carry on the negot iations with dispatch; why is it, Mr .

Speaker. why, I ask the First Min ister, was Premier Blakeney, as he then was, was he lying when he said to the people of Saskatc hewan, repeating comments he made at a news conference in Regina on Thur sday, October 15 ; the Premier said "An interim agree ment

could be possible in the next sh ort number of weeks if the recommen dations and proposals of the Min isters are found to be gene rally acceptable?" Is the First Mini ster standin g in his place today and saying tha t Allan Blakeney was lying when he made that statement to the people of Saskatchewan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: On a point of order, it is clear in Beauchesne and you previously ruled as far as I can recollect, tha t to ask a Minis ter of the Cr own to com­ ment on someone else's statements out of the House is improper and is not a question to be asked or ans­ wered during question period. MR. SPEAKER: I do no t recall ruling on tha t particu­ lar matter in the House. Does the Honour able Gov­ ernment House Leader wish to quote the reference? HON. R. PENNER: Yes.

In Beauchesne , Page 13 2, Citation 13 5- 10 , "A question ought not to refer to a statement made outside the House by a Minister." - th at's even by another Min ister, never mind a Minis ter of another agency. Citation 359-10 applies. I'm urging upon the Speaker to make a ruling. You canno t, during question period, ask a Min ister of the Crown to comment upon some statement made outside of the House by some other Min ister. MR. SPEAK ER: May I confer with the Clerk for a moment? It's my opin ion in reading Citation 359-10 that it refers. in the House of Commons in Ottawa, to Federal Minis ters.

I cannot recall tha t questions of a similar nature have been ruled out in this Chamb er. Un less I find some other Citation which covers it more fully, the matter sho uld be consider ed in order and the Honou rable First Minis ter may answer the question. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, wha t does cause one to ask a question, if the Leader of the Opposition was so certain and so convi nced October-November that he had everyth ing signed and sealed, I wonder why the Leader of the Opposition didn't postpone his cal­ ling of the election and call it in the spring or early summer of 19 82, if he is so convinc ed that he had everyt hing, indeed all the agree ments signe d and sealed. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the words tha t are most telling by way of the quotation tha t the Leader of the Opposition referred to by Premier Allan Blakeney is "could be poss ible." What does "could be possible" mean, Mr. Speaker? It means tha t th ere is a possibility that an agree ment might be signed, given certain cir­ cumstances. Who is going to argue with tha t? Is the Leader of the Opposition go ing to argue with that? Is any member go ing argue with a statement such as that? But. Mr . Speaker, what we do kn ow, that there has been an economic recession tha t has caused a -(lnt erjection)- Mr. Speaker.

I would suggest tha t you maintain some order. 22 June, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able First Min ister has the floor. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, what we have been confronted with is an international recession and it appears that members across the way are still not conscious of that; an interna tional recession tha t caused the cancellation of the $1 7-billion Alsands operation in the Province of Alberta but one month ago: an internati ona l recession tha t caused the can­ cellation of the Alaska Pipeline but one month ago; reports, indeed of large layoffs involving potash workers in the Province of Saskatchewan; 400 steel­ workers laid off in Regina but last week; five mines, by report from the Regina Leader Post in Saskatchewan, who se outlook is in question as to whe n or if they will reopen in the Province of Saskatchewan.

Th at's what we've been hit with and it seems that honour able members across the way are still living in some sort of cuckooland whe re they don't recognize the econ omic circumstances that we are confronted with. Mr. Speaker, I am not going to tempt the honour able members from their efforts to make cheap political points. Let me give honou rable members some good advice. Manitobans kn ow full well the economic cir­ cumstances that Cana dians and themselves are pres­ ently work ing on.

The y want their gove rnments to worl< together in order to ach ieve economic success and they will not be fooled by political trickery. Indeed, any party tha t exercises political trickery in this day and age is doomed to failure. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the First Min ister can oil his way and slither as much as he wants in this cuck­ ooland tha t he and his colleagues have created in Man itoba, because I ackn owledge that we're living in a socialist cuckoo land now, where they have lost two out of th ree agreements tha t were left on their platter to conclude.

We're left in a situation wh ere, even the chief mentor of the First Min ister of this province, Premier Blakeney, said that the agreement could be concluded in a few weeks. Ins tead, Mr. Speaker, we're faced this morning with the headline "Alberta pulling out of Grid," as a result, Mr. Speaker, of the ineptitude of this government. 3465 Now my question, Mr.

Speaker, is this : if, regretta­ bly, Alberta is no w pulling out of the Gr id, what hope do we have of starting up Limestone construc tion this year, which was a firm promise of the NDP when they were in Opposition whether the y had a market or not, but which their Hydro people have told us as recently as a few weeks ago and we kn ew canno t be started unless the Western Inter-Tie and Alcan are in place in Man itoba. When do they intend to start up Limestone as a result of the se two failures that are now chalked up to their nego tiating skills? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the announc ement was that the New Democratic Party would bring about orderly development of Limestone. We intend to do th at, Mr. Speaker. Ther e will be orderly development towards eventual resumption of Limestone. Mr. Speaker, there is one good bit of news that I would like to annou nce to the House tha t I have just received a -(I nterjection)- well, Mr. Speaker, the - I hate to become personal because New Democrats

Tuesday, 22 June, 1982 aren't nearly as good at being personal as Con serva­ tives appear to be, but the voters of Man itoba expressed a very clear indication and demand who should resign on November the 17 th of last year. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put on the record tha t the Leader of the Opposition referred to the members on this side as being reds and cuck­ oos. I think Manit obans should kn ow -(l nterjection)­ kooks, okay, reds and kooks. I think Manit obans should know the flowery descriptive phrases tha t are used by the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, the good ne ws, and I would like to come to the good news because, hopefully, it will bring about some hope, some cha nge in mood. The Minis ter of Financ e has annou nced today at 2:00 o'clock tha t a new Budget will be coming down next Mond ay. No w, God hope that finally there are some effective and constructive steps undertaken by the Federal Gove rnment in order to stimulate the econ­ omy of Canada. I think tha t we should look forward with some constructive desire that the re be that long awaited leadership on the part of the Min ister of Financ e next Mon day. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Spea ker, while acknowled ging that there may be some glimmer of ho pe in tha t news from Ottawa, I get back to some glimmer of hope in Mani toba and repeat the question tha t I just asked the First Min ister which he conveniently overlooked. Faced with this annou ncement that Alberta is pulling out of the Grid because of the ineptitude of this gove rn ment, when can we have any ho pe of the construction of Limestone being started, as was inten ded in 19 82? The schedu les were the re; everything was ready to go, if the Grid had been allowed to proceed. Thi s govern­ ment failed on the Grid .

When can we no w expect Limestone? Seco ndly, Mr. Speaker, if the Federal Gove rnment has screwed up its courage to have a new Budget, can the First Min ister do the same here and get rid of the invidious payroll tax tha t he's put on the people of Man itoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this gove rnment nor, do I believe, any gove rn ment, forecast the impact of the intern ational recession. I hesitate to be repeti­ tious, Mr. Speaker, but I am being repetitious because of the nature of the repetitious questions tha t are being posed.

So any plannin g, any sche duling, must take into conside ration the impact of the internat ional recession which I hope will not be for long. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJ ARDIN S: Mr. Sp eaker, yesterday the Member for Fort Garry asked a question; I told him that I would try to get all the information. It was re the personal care ho mes. I wish to say tha t the differe nce was tha t the Order-in -Council not be rescinded from Janua ry 1s t to the end of September, each person in the personal care ho mes would have had to pay $13 5 more.

I think the other question was also with their deficit. We had estimated a revenue. It wasn't the same revenue as, of course, was estimated by the former gove rnment, so we can't talk about a deficit. We can't tell what's go ing to happen at the end of the year but, as of this time, we're very close to what we have pro­ jected as revenue from the personal care ho mes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the information from the Minis ter, but is he sayin g that when the Estimates were developed and final ized in Treasury Board and Cabi net which would have been about December-Jan uary, tha t at tha t point in time the re had been no decision made with respect to the rescindin g of the Order-in-C ouncil tha t affected the Janua ry 1 st per-diem increase? You'll recall, Sir, that a Jan uary 1 st increase was annou nced and then repealed. Th e projections for personal care program budgeting surely must have been in the gove rnment's confirmed spen ding plans by that time. HON. L.

DE SJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, it is true tha t the re was an annou ncement made. The annou nce­ ment was made following the Order-in-C ouncil tha t had been enacted, never rescinded. At that time, it was made by the Manit oba Health Services Commission. The Cabi net, at its first meeting, decided to rescind that and annou nce the policy that the Order-in­ Council would be rescinded and tha t the re would be no automatic increase; that they would have to be reviewed by Cabi net. The y related this to the actual cost of living; tha t is the difference tha t I mentione d.

If you remember, the re was no increase the first quarter. Then there was an increase of 60 cents, April 1s t, and 30 cents was annou nced Ju ly 1s t which made a differ­ enc e of $13 5 to each patient by the end of September. 3466 Th ere was a deficit for the other year, of course, because the former gover nment had projected - tha t was easy to project at the time - but there was the 50 cents automatic increase every quarter and of course, without the increase of the last quarter of the fiscal year, we were in deficit of that.

But the annou ncement was made and the anticipated revenue - and I say anticipated because it's not a regular increase. It is something that had been decided only when pres­ ented to Cabine t and depending on the inf lation rates. So it would be very hard to say exactly what the amount is, but I'm saying that, at this time, the re is not a very significant deficit, if any. MR. L. SHERMA N: Mr.

Speaker, I accept the Minis­ ter's statement, but we'll have to wait and see, because I'm not satisfied that the $12 4 million budg etary appropriation in the Estimates for the Personal Care Home Program was not set and fixed on the basis of the Order-in-C ouncil providing for the quarterly increase that was in place at that time. HON. L. DE SJARDINS: I checked again today on tha t and the information tha t I have is tha t it wasn't. Thi s was done after the policy of the present gove rnment was annou nced.

They have tried to anticipate what the reve nue would be and it might be tha t there will be a deficit at the end of the year. At this time, we're runnin g fairly close. Thi s is what I'm saying, but my information is, that no, it wasn't anticipated re the

Tuesday, 22 Ju ne, 1982 Order-in-Council tha t was enacted by my honour able friend. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions having expired. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MATTER OF URGENC Y HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker.

I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Turtle Moun tain that, under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public impor­ tance; namely, the failure of the Minis ter of Ener gy and Min es, acting on behalf of the NOP Gov ernment of Man itoba, to prosecute with dispatch and prudence and to bring to a successful conclusion the negotia­ tions with respect to the Alcan smelter, the Western Power Inter-Tie with Alberta and Saskatchewan, and the agree ment leading to the establishment of Mani t­ oba's first potash mine; resulting in the direct loss of tho usands of job opportunities for Man itobans, the stagna tion of the Man itoba economy, and the loss of hope and confide nce among the people of our province.

MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: In accordance with our Rule 27 the Honour able Leader of th e Opposition has five minutes to demonst rate the urgency of debate to the House. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I rise at a time in the history of our province which is as perilous, in eco­ nomic terms, as any time tha t we have perhaps faced in this cent ury.

I rise at a time, Sir, when, with in a period of 8 days, this province has seen dashed into a thousand pieces, the hopes and the expectations for full realization tha t we had of two major projects, and now possibly even a third from what we are hearing today, which could have meant the addition of a new dimension to the industrial and employment and eco­ nomic future of our province.

I say to you, Sir, as I said last week when we were speakin g only about Alcan at that time, now we are speaking about the loss of the Western Inter-Tie which, Sir, has always been pivotal to the futur e development of Hydro in Man itoba and the building of that full potential of the Nelson -C hurchill River sys­ tem. Wha t we have seen today, by virtue of the annou ncement from Alberta, Mr .

Speaker, is the inev­ itable delay of the Limestone project until perhaps 19 88, if we can believe the worst scenario tha t Mani­ toba Hydro presented to the Committee some few weeks ago, based upon no Western Inter-Tie, no Alcan, and so on. The urgency. Sir, arises from the fact tha t this govern ment, when it came into office, was left with nego tiations in an advanced stage with respect to Alcan, with whom there had been a Memorandum of Und ersta ndin g sig ned. Alcan had taken up a site selection in Man itoba; had taken options on tha t land. The gove rnment was moving ahead, Mr .

Speaker, to have envir on mental studies made on tha t site and the matter was well in hand with respect to proceeding to an agreement with respect to Hydro use; with respect, Sir, to the creation of the potential for a smelter in Man itoba, with or without the econ omic downturn. We had reached a certain plateau of ach ievement which regrettably, Sir, has now been wiped away thr ough six months of pighe adedness, intrans igence, ineptitude, ideological dithe ring , by principally the Min ister of Ener gy of Mines and his incompetent Deputy.

I, Sir, am not one who likes to stand in this House and call to account civil servants, but the Dep uty Min ­ ister of Ener gy of Mines of this gove rnment is a man who was recruited out of the office of Ed Broadbent. He came into Man itoba as an ideologue, Mr. Speaker, and along with his Min ister . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Gov­ ernment House Leader, on a point of order. HON. R.

PENNER: First of all, aside from the fact tha t it is completely out of order on the particular motion, you have previously had occasion to rule in this House on imputations made against a civil servant who has not the possibility of defen ding himself or herself in this House. The Leader of the Opposition kno ws tha t it is wrong; kno ws tha t it is scand alous. It's the kind of dirt he may be used to revelling in, but it is not part of the business of this House. Th ese people cannot defend themselves in the House and should not have to tolerate that kind of libelous statement tha t is being made. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I wou ld remind all members tha t our Rule 27 has to do with explanation of the urgency of the debate; the urgency, not the nature of the debate itself. 3467 The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: And tha t is why , Sir, I have said in this motion that the urgency resides now. Having seen the failure of two of the se th ree major projects under the inept handl ing of this Min ister and his Deputy, the urgency arises, Sir, tha t the y must be taken from their jobs by the First Minis ter before we lose the thir d one.

I think the third one is seriously in jeopardy and has been seri ously in jeopardy from the minute this Minis­ ter and his Deputy started to work on the negotiations. So the urge ncy, Sir, is in the public interest of Mani­ toba. The urgency, Sir, is that this government be brave enough to stand up to a debate in this Hous e with respect to how it has mishand led its fun damental mandate to develop the economy of Manit oba and, in fact has, by its ineptitude; and has, Sir, by its commit­ ment to its funny ideology, sacrificed on the altar of socialism, the future of Manit oba in an economic sense. So, Mr.

Speaker, the urgency of debate, Sir, is that two are down. We have lost two major projects with the thou sands of jobs that could come from tho se projects. We have one left that is still salvageable, if this gov ernment will rid itself of the paraphernal ia tha t has attached itself to the government in terms of staff and in terms of this inept Min ister; a new Minis ter be appointed who can bring those nego tiations back to the level of understandin g tha t the y were on the 30th of November, 19 81.

Tuesday, 22 June, 1982 The urge ncy, Sir, lies in the future of Mani toba, the future of hope for all Man itobans; th at the y can see an expandin g economy based upon our natural resour­ ces; an expanding economy based upon negot iation in good faith; an expandin g economy tha t was within the grasp of Man itobans only six shor t months ago. No w, two- thir ds of it has been wiped away by this torrent of ineptitude, principally led by the Minis ter of Ener gy and Mines and tho se incompetents that he has hired into his staff. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honour able Gov­ ern ment House Leader also has five minutes. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, as we might have expected, instead of addressing the key points tha t must be addressed in a motion of thi s kind, we have been treated, perhaps I shoul d say mistreated, to five minutes of bombast, rhetoric, and sound and fury signif yin g nothi ng. We've had occasion recently to refer to the precise meaning or the precise points which have to be establ ished in order to justify adjournin g the setting aside the regular business of the House to debate a matter of urgent public impor­ tance.

The term "urgent public importance" is a very specialized term and th ere are at least two criteria; these were addressed onl y a week or so ago and it has to deal with matters within the administrative compe­ tence of the gove rnment and th ere must be no other reasonable opportun ity for debate.

Now, ther e is a thir d Rule of the House which must be addressed in your consider ation of this matter, and tha t is our own Rule 27(5) (b), th at such a motion can not address more than one matter - it says specifi­ cally - "not more than one matter may be discussed on the same motion." No w, this motion raises th ree mat­ ters specifically: one of them, with respect to Alcan, you have previously ruled on in any event; secondly, with respect to the Inter-Tie; and thir dly, with respect to potash.

Th ey are set out seriatim ( 1) , (2) , (3); so tha t you have a rolled-up motion dealing with thr ee spe­ cific matters and tha t is con trary specifically to Rule 27(5) (b). If you should not find tha t the motion violates Rule 27(5) (b), then with respect to the question of urgency as defined in Beauchesne , just dealing with the Inter­ Tie question which sparke d this particular motion, it has been annou nced by the Min ister in Alberta, the Util ities Minister - and I just quo te a brief passage that the Alberta Min ister said - "A report on the Slave River power potential should be in his hands in Ju ly.

A close study of the Slave River Report will reveal just how interested Alberta will be in the future of the Power Grid discussion." I quote that to make this point, th at it is now up to Alberta. Alberta has not made a decision, other than to consider what its position will be in Ju ly wh en it gets its study. Therefore. ther e is nothing that this gove rnment can do until the Province of Alberta gets the report on the Slave River power station and then decides which is most econom ically feasible for it.

Finally, Sir, on the question which addresses the specific question of urgency; namely, whether there will be another opportuni ty to discuss this matter, the members opposite know full well that perhaps even today we will be moving into Ways and Means to consid er, among other matters, the question of Main Supply. The members opposite kn ow full well, tho se of them who are experienced, th at it is on such a motion tha t a debate may be ge neral. Th erefore, there is today another opportunity to debate these very questions.

So on all three matters which I have addressed to you. the motion I suggest to you, Sir, fails. What it is, it's posturing; what it is, it's political cheapness of the worst kin d; wh at it is, it's exploiting a situation for narrow political advantage. SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAK ER: Order please.

I thank both members tha t have spoken on this matter for their advice and altho ugh I do not accept the first point made by the Honourable Attorney-General that the resolution deals with more than one matter, he is quite correct in not­ ing tha t Beauche sne's 285 says tha t "there must be no other reasonable opportun ity for debate." I believe tha t most members of this House are sufficiently competent that if th ey wish to discuss this matter the y will find some other opportun ity qu ite easily and quite qu ickly. Th erefore, I must rule against the motion put forward by the Honourable Attorney -General.

Orders of the Day. HON. R. PENNER: You said, Sir, that you must rule against the position put forward by the Honour able Attorney -General. I think you meant the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: Pardon me, I did indeed mean the Leader of the Opposition. Orders of the Day. 3468 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Speaker, I wish to rise to cor­ rect the record of the House.

Ther e was a procedural statement read in this Chamber earlier today wh ich made reference to some remarks of mine and I wish to correct the record to the point that on Friday last I did no t formally raise a matter of privilege. I studiously avoided raising a matter of privilege by not bringing in a substant ive motion and any action tha t was taken after that it was purely as a request to the Min ister to withdr aw his remarks. He cho se no t to and I did no t pursue the matter any further. So I wish to thank you for your gratuitous statement today, but I wanted to correct the record that it was not necessary.

MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honour able member for his remarks. I would suggest if he wish es to refresh his memory he should consult Hans ard itself. The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, would you please call the report stage on Bill No. 40. MR. SPEAKER: The question before the House is the report stage on Bill No. 40 and the adjourned debate stands in the name of the Honour able Member for St.

Tuesday, 22 June, 1982 Norbert. (Stand) The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you please call the adjourned debates on Bill s No. 21 through to 60, except Bill No. 54. BILL NO. 21 -COM MUN ITY CHILD DAY CARE STANDARDS ACT MR. SPEAK ER: On the proposed motion of the Hon­ ourable Min ister of Co mmunity Services, Bill No . 21 . The Honour able Member for Mo rris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My comments will be brief, hopefully.

A couple of com­ ments I'd like to make - I'll take the liberty of quoting some parts from the brief presented to the Manit oba Government concerning child care standa rds. It has come from the Central Region of the Man itoba Child Care Association. First of all, I want to re-echo the senti ments of other speakers from this side who have indicated tha t we feel at this particular time tha t we are blinded some­ what by the lack of regu lations or the lack of full understandin g of what may come forward.

Firstly, the bill is therefore a disappointment because of the fact we have no idea of really what is coming forward in regulations, although certainly we do sup­ port in a general sense the attempt to standardize the qual ity of care thr oughout the province. Th at, Sir, seems harmless enough but it brings some real ques­ tions to mind and many of them have been listed by my colleagues previously but I think that, as it pertains specifically to a rural situation, no doubt ther e are some concerns tha t maybe should be re-emphasized and underlined once again.

I'm concerne d about primarily any regulation as it may pertain to standards relating to, as I've seen indi­ cated in one or two briefs, child development courses. One can conjur e up in one 's mind any number of thi ngs that may mean and, of course, as a parent of young children and realizing how vulnerable they are to many facets of our life, one becomes concerned as to what degree and really what is meant in this whole area of child development courses.

So tho se are some of the areas and in a rural sense, of course, I'm wondering about tho se existing day care centres tha t now seem to provide the service th at is required and how they will be affected when the new regulations come into being. I wonder also who will draft these regulations.

I'm one who of course is always suspicious of so-ca lled professionals, so ciologists, medical health officers, school counsellor s, professional educators and I'm wondering really who is go ing to work toward devel­ oping the regulations that we so desperately want to see; whether ther e will be sufficient room on this new bureaucracy or this new committee tha t will develop the se stan dards; will th ere be sufficient room for ordi­ nary parents like myself and other people in this House and. of course. what about the profit concern?

I've hear d the Member for Wolsele y speak in a pas­ siona te and emotional plea to this whole question of day care and I could readily identify her disdain for any mention of profit associated with day care. I understand her sincerity and of course her deep commitment to, probably, total exclusion of any attempt to profit from providing care.

Yet I have to ask myself if it isn't the right of individ­ uals who may be prepared to pay beyond what stan­ dards may indicate, to some individuals who may be prepared to provide care beyond the standards envis ­ aged, at a profit to them and I wonder in fact why that situation should not be allowed to occur. Yet ther e's not much more that I or anybody else on this side can say to tha t issue or many others because we haven' t seen, again, those regulations.

I'm worried about - and I think our Member for Fort Garry said it best - about the attempt to make homo­ ge neous this whole standard of care and if I could quote from Hans ard, Mond ay, Ju ne 14 th and he said very briefly right to the point and I quote, "Mr.

Speaker, so our first warn ing to the Min ister is to avoid any philosophical or ideological urge to make this whole system totally homo geneous and to produce stan dards that will be applied universally across-the­ board, wh ere day care is in operation in every pocket and corner of this province." Sir, I say to you that has real meaning to somebody like myself who, although is removed from active day care cons ideration, still comes from tha t part of the province wh ere I see a number of volunteer groups; I see individuals within a small hamlet, like one from whic h I come, who devote two or th ree days a week - not specifically in a day care setting as we see - but the y devote full days of the week to bringing children together and who spend time and devote time to th at end, just not to allow a single parent or to allow the mother in this case to go and do something else, but just to have children come together for the purpose of learn ing early in their life what it's like to be with other children. 3469 In having seen this type of system and as I envi sage it, trying to put it into a very strict, commercial day care operation tha t probably exists in the city, I realize we're comparing two different things.

But still I've got this concern tha t you're go ing to bring forward stan­ dards that are going to impose themselves across th at who le, large area of preschool children coming together for whatever means, so I ge nuin ely have tha t concern in a rural day care or a rural preschool gather­ ing sense.

I also have to ask the question as to how the con­ cerns in a rural sense are going to be broug ht forward into this type of committee - I don't kn ow if it's go ing to be a director that will be setting these standards - and I'm wondering if they will pay total cogn izance to all the efforts put in by volunteer groups. As the Member for Fort Ga rry indicates again from the very same Han sard, and he quotes, "The warn ing thu s ensue s from that experienc e, Mr.

Speaker, that if th ere is too heavy a liand laid on the day care com­ munity by the gove rnment with respect to qualifica­ tions and training, many rural day care centr es may be forced to close." Sir, in all hone sty, that's my greatest concern and also the impact it will have on the volun­ teer efforts because I've seen volunteer systems work. As a matter of fact, in many rural areas it's the only solution; it's the onl y way th at you have progra ms of a social nature, whether it's in recreation or any other end, as to the volunteer efforts of individuals who want

Tuesday, 22 Jun e, 1982 to come together and give of their time. I think it would be a tragedy to tha t whole attempt by people if, in fact, you har med that in any way, notwiths tandin g what the Member for St Bonif ace just whis pered in my ear. I'd like to close by finally giving comment on enforcement I never really tho ught too much about this until I had an opportuni ty to read again this brief, of which I made mention earlier on.

In their introduc­ tory remarks they make this comment and I quo­ te: "We ackno wledge the tremendous resource of concerned, skil led, volunteer community citizens and welcome their direction. We do not acknowle dge the resource of only one person being given the power to enforce standards nor do we welcome them." Mr.

Speaker, they go on further with in this brief to indicate th at, in their view, enforcement should be the responsi bility of the Board of Directors who are responsi ble for all aspects of a day care centre's oper­ ation and that enforcement, in fact, should be achieved thr ough monthly board meetings; thr ough direct communications with directors; thr ough parent invol­ vement and daily access to the centre.

I think really all the y're trying to say, in a rural sense, is tha t in fact the quickest way to create somethin g tha t you don't want is to take en forcement, to take supervision and take ultimate say on day care as we kn ow in the rural areas; is to remove th at from local author ity and take it, in fact, to some individual, one person in Winnip eg or somebody far removed.

So I want to register tha t as my main concern and close by no doubt saying to you th at the importance of understandin g the relationship between democracy and bureaucracy cannot be underestimated in spe­ cific issues and I say tha t this Day Care bill, as has been presented to us, is certainly one of th em. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honour able Min ister of Community Services will be closing debate. The Honour able Min ister. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I intend to be brief and to the point Firstly, I welcome the support expr essed for this legislation in general and I want to take the opportu­ nity to allay any expressions of fear that have been forthcoming from members opposite with regard to the matter of the heavy hand of the state, or with regard to other matters such as the allowance for differences from one par t of this province to another . If anythi ng, the key in this legislation is flexibility and it was designed with that in mind.

The Member for Fort Garry and others said the y were disappoint ed because it did not contain a lot of detail: tha t it didn't contain detail regarding standards; regarding ratios; regarding other aspects of the administration of legislation, the administration of day care centres; tha t at the same time the y said they worried about the lack of flexibility. Well, you can't have it both ways. I suggest tha t criticism contr adicts itself.

In other words, if you want to have the variety; if you want th e heterogeneity rather than ho mogeneity; if you want to have ability to be flex ible, then you can not put all these details into the bill because it is much more diff icult to chang e with the times. It is much more difficult to chang e your approach if it is fixed in legislation. Hopefully, as time goes on with further experience to the Act, if necessary, we hope that very few changes will have to be made, but if the y are necessary, Mr. Speaker, then we can make them.

We can make them more readily; more rapidly th an we could if th ey were carved in legislation. I ask members opposite, what other legislation has such details carved out in the bill? The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that very few major education legislation; major health care legislation do not outlin e in detail, standards. Those are not appropriate for the bill. Tho se are appropriate for regulations and as it's appropriated in those areas, so it is appropriate for child day care th rusts. So we have deliberately taken that approach. Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I notice none of the members opposite, who complain about the lack of content, the lack of detail, have proposed anythi ng. We have no suggest ions coming forward as to what should be in. The Member for Fort Ga rry said well, the bill was empty; there is nothin g to criticize and yet he could not, he had nothing to propose; ther e was just negative criticism. Th ere was nothing positive that the Member for Fort Garry was prepared to offer. So the bill does provide a framework for regula­ tion s.

Those regulations will be based upon the expe­ rience we've had to date in bringing forward day care programs to this province. We will recognize differen­ ces from one part of the province to anoth er; from the north to the south; from the city to the rural, tha t will be recogn ized. We will recognize the role of the volun­ teer boards, as a matter of fact, non proprietory organ­ izations today and co-operative organizations today, by law, must have boards of directors. Thi s is what is happening no w.

These non profit centres; the se non­ proprietory day care centres and co-ops have boards made up of parents esse ntially, members of the com­ munity, ther efore it goes without sayin g that such org anizations will continue to have boards made up esse ntially of parents, of people in the community. The y will have responsi bilities to run and operate a day care centre. So we don't envisage any chang e in that respect So ther e is plenty of room for community involve­ ment and it certainly will be encou raged. Th ere will not be the heavy -hand ed estate; ther e will be coordi­ nation .

We will do what we can to assist in the devel­ opment of new day care centres and new day care facilities. We' ll do whatever we can to hel p ensu re, ho wever, that standards th at are desirous are brought into being and are maintained. I said the key was flex ibility. We have in

Section 19 , provided for appeal procedures and it's only common sense, but I think it's indicative of the flex ible approach tha t we have taken, that where any day care centre has its licence suspended or revoked, tha t the licensee may appeal the suspen sion. I won't go into the details, it's outlined in

Section 19 of the bill. 3470 Flexibility is also seen, Mr. Speaker, in

Section 27 which refers to the Qualifications Review Committee. We want to ensur e that while we want good qual ity people, that we want to have an oppor tun ity because th ere's so many people with different backgr ounds

Tuesday, 22 June, 1982 tha t we have an org anization - a Qualifications Review Committee - tha t can as far as possible ascertain qual­ ifications and so on and make decisions with regard to qualifications. We have provided for a rather broad spectrum of people to be on that committee. Fur ther, Mr. Speaker, we have provided to give another example of flex ibility; that a Min isterial Certif­ icate may be issued, as outlined in

Section 29, wh ere th ere are special circumstances and where a person doesn't meet certain qualifications prescribed in regu­ lations. So, if anythi ng, perhaps we could be accused of allowing too much flex ibility but certainly we have provided a sound framework for the necessary regulations. An other exam ple of the very flex ible and liberal approach we've taken is with regard to commercial operators. Ther e's no prohib ition against operating day care centr es on a commercial basis and I kn ow there was some discussion of this in the Estimates Review.

Many members opposite raised this matter and I notice tha t this is not a matter of debate at this time because, again, flex ibility is the word and ther e is no prohibition of the private sector being in th is. I might say, Mr. Speaker, however tha t it's our inten­ tion to do whatever we can to su pport and en hanc e a very strong, non profit co-operative day care system in the Pro vince of Man itoba so that, basi cally, we will continue to have what we have and to expand on the non profit se gment in the province.

In other words, hopefully with our various progra ms or various sub si­ dies and the expansion thereof, we will be able to strenghten the non profit segment of day care delivery in the Prov ince of Man itoba. We have had plenty of cons ultation with people in the community. My Legislative Assistant, the Me mber for Wolseley, has spent many hours, many days, many weeks talk ing to various people in the City of Win­ nipeg and in various other cities, towns and rural parts of Man itoba, northern parts of Man itoba.

All in all she has cons ulted, and dialogued, and met with 18 differ­ ent gro ups, 18 different organizations far-ranging from the Day Care Liaison Committee to the Wee World Chi ld Care in Portage la Prairie, to the St. Mat­ thews and Maryland Day Care Centr e, to the Moun t Carmel Clinic, to the Ch ildren's House, to the YMCA Day Care Centr e, to the Eastman Day Care Group and so forth and so on; the Melis Federation in Brandon, the Thompson organization tha t runs a day care cen­ tre and so forth and those are only a few.

So we look forward, having obtained much informa­ tion and indication from tho se groups, we proceeded with the legislation and we do indeed look forward to the co mmen ts of any gro ups that are interested in this legislat ion when it goes before the Committee of the Legislature within the next few days, hopefully. We will listen very carefully to what the people have to say and based on what the y have to say we are prepared to make any amendments, if necessary, to the legislation - ho pefully none will be re quired - but if some are required they certainly will be forthcoming.

Secondly, based on what is stated, we will certainly be gu ided in the making and in the formulation of regulations which are very important in the organization of the program. Agai n, we intend to have a large cons ultative pro­ cess in effect over the summer months and early fall 3471 and truly I would expect tha t these regulations will be formulated in such a way that they will be found acceptable by the vast majority of people concerned with day care delivery in the Provi nce of Manit oba . So, in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I state again th at flex ibility has been the key.

We intend to be very grad­ ual, very steady in our approach. The degree to whic h we can implement standards of course, will in large measure, depend upon the fundin g. It will be depen­ dent on the amount of money that we can find in our treasury to allow the day care centres to flourish, to develop, to expand and to allow standards to rise.

I assure the Members of the House tha t our inten­ tion is to have the best day care system to be fo und anywher e in No rth America and tha t it is our intention to support volunteer groups; it is our intention to get the co-operat ion of the day care community; it is our intention to work with them to provide adeq uate pro­ grams, programs for children that will cause Manitoba to be in the forefront of this type of social service for the people of this province.

So I look forward to the Committee stage for furth er comments from the community and hopefully see this thr ough to final reading and to get on with the job of flushin g out further details so th at we can indeed have the best child day care system to be found anywher e in the world. QU ESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Gov ernment House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you. I might just annou nce tha t, by agreement, this particular bill is being referred to tile Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders which is meeting on Thur sday.

BIL L NO. 23 - THE LEGAL AID SERVICES SOCIE TY OF MANITOBA ACT MR. SPEAK ER: Thank you. On the proposed motion of the Honour able Attorney-Gen eral, Bill No. 23, stan ding in the name of the Honour able Member for Turtle Mou ntain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I intend to be brief. I don't wish to repeat some of the argu ments which have already been put forward by my colleagues with respect to the dangers of the wording of this bill and the sorts of gro ups tha t might conceivably qualify for aid under the bill, as worded.

Wha t I would just simply like to point out to the Minister and the government is that this sort of action opens the floodgates to requests from special interest groups. This offers never ending possibilities for expansi on. In this case the Min ister proposes to offer legal services to grou ps interested in issues which would include consumer and environme ntal issues. Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Min ister would find th at, in respect to groups interested in environmen tal issues, for instance, th at legal services would be somethin g which they would regard as fairly low in thei r order of priority in terms of being able to fight an issue. The Mini ster is go ing to open his gove rnment up to all

22 June, 1982 manner of requests to deal with th ese other types of techni cal advice which, if offered, will simply make the situation th at much more difficult for gov ernment to be able to govern. Certai nly it seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that it is the responsi bility of govern ment to make certain that they have taken into cons ideration the views of the public, the values of the public, that they have examined the merits of various proposals and tha t they make their decisions in full kn owledge of the situation; but I would warn the Min ister th at to provide exten sive ser­ vices to groups that have a concern or have an interest in issues of public concern, you will find that th ere will be a never ending stream of demands and that if grant ed the y can tie up the mechanism of government almost indefin itely because it's possible to find experts th at can give you advice which is con trary to almost any position that the government proposes to take.

Mr. Speaker, I don't intend to belabour the issue at all but I do offer that word of warn ing to the Minister and to the govern ment because it's an area the y can find tha t will open up to be a much broader one than is presented in this bill. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honour able Attorney-General will be closing debate. HON. R. PENNER: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Health tha t the debate on this bill be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Hon­ ourable Attorney -Gener al, Bill No. 27, stan ding in the name of the Honour able Member for Lake side. (St and) MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Hon­ ourable Attorney-General Bill No. 30, standing in the name of the Honour able Member for Min nedosa. (Stand) Bill NO. 31 -THE CHILD CUSTO DY ENFORCEM ENT ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Hon­ ourable Attorney-General Bill No. 31 standing in the name of the Honour able Me mber for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, the Honour able Attorney-Gen eral just introduced this bill yesterday but it was in the works, Mr. Speaker , prior to the change in go vernment and I would like to make a few comments on the bill, Mr. Speaker. With respect to any techn icalities in the bill, I hope tha t the Attorney­ Gen eral has, in one way or another , had an oppo rtu­ nity to refer the bill to the various groups like the Family Law Subsection and the Man itoba Bar Asso ci­ ation, Mr .

Speaker, whom I believe would be very interested in the cont ents of this bill, and who might b0 able to provide some positive and constructiv e comments, and perhaps might offer some improve­ ments to the bill when it reaches the Committee stage. I ho pe, Mr. Speaker, that the y are aware of this bill and will be made aware when this bill go es to Committee. Mr .

Speaker, this bill deals with one of the most emotional heartren ding situations tha t, I think, can possibly occur in the lives of citizens and does so more and more as we witne ss the increasing number of divorces and separations in our society and the number of sin gle parent families and th ose who are, particularly th ose who would be on the Family Law Sub

section of the Man itoba Bar who practise in thi s area of law on a daily basis, could tell the members of this House some real ho rror stories tha t occur almost every day in our society, Mr. Speaker , whe re one spouse or the other leaves the home with the children and takes the children to another jurisdiction; let alone the difficulties that occur in custody situations wh ere both spouses remain in this jurisdiction in this province and the y get involved in very difficult, very complex, very expensiv e custody proceedings in other provinces, Mr. Speaker. The fact tha t this bill adopts as a principle, Mr. Speaker , in

Section 4( 1) giving to the court, wh ere the ch ildren have a real and substantia l con nection with the province, give that court jurisdiction, Mr. Speaker, if it is adopted by every province in this land that would tend to eliminate some of the interprovincial disputes tha t have taken place and do, on a daily basis, take place. It would be helpful indeed, Mr.

Speaker, and I would ho pe, in any event, and I'm reasona bly satisfied tha t the Attorney-Gen eral will continue to press on other pr ovincial departments and other pro vincia l Attorneys -Gen eral, the practice tha t we follow in Man itoba of making available Crown Coun sel, Crown Attorneys to assist in enforcement of orders from other jurisdictions , enfor cing them in this province. Th at can go some way, Mr. Speaker, to providing immediate legal assistance where the child's wherea­ bouts come to the kn owledge of the spouse from whom they have been abducted or taken away. Tha t is a good practice, Mr.

Speaker, and it is one which I pressed on other Attorneys-General and on other provinces and I hope tha t the present Attorney­ Gen eral will continue to impress upon other pro vin­ ces, as a practice th at shoul d be adopted in tho se other jurisdictions . 3472 Mr. Speaker, I would be interested to kn ow from the Attorney-Gene ral, perhaps when he sums up his posi­ tion with respect to, I believe, some proposed amendments of the Criminal Code which at one stage were being consider ed as stren gthening the provi­ sions of the Criminal Code with respect to abduction and consideri ng it as a criminal offence.

I kn ow th ere were some Attorneys-General who had concerns about that, Mr. Speaker, but I took the position tha t this was such a serious matter, until ther e was a better system of en forcement, it shoul d be consid ered as a criminal offence. Mr . Speaker, I would be interested in tha t Commit­ tee and perhaps reviewing with the Attorney-Ge neral his comment tha t othe r provin ces do not intend to enact this new legislation.

He did say tha t in response to a question that it wasn't because they were opposed to this legislation but I would be interested in review­ ing with him the reasons tha t othe r provin ces have indicated for not enacting this legislation. Mr . Speaker, this bill was in the works. We're sup­ portive of this or any other steps that can be taken to improve the enforcement of interprovincial Custody

Orders as well as Maintenanc e Orders. Thank you . Mr. Speaker. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER, J. Storie: The Honour able Attorney-Gener al. HON. R. PENNER: Just very briefly in closing debate then on Bill No . 31, I thank the Member for St. No rbert for his supportive remarks and concerns.

I believe that in many ways Man itoba has sho wn the way in family legislation and fortun ately, although there are some substantial differences of approach and neverth eless ther e has been more consensus than difference in the way in which respective gov ern ments, both NOP and Cons ervative, have approached the question of mari­ tal property, family maintenance and child custody.

I would be pleased to discuss with him in committee such concerns as he may have and I would ho pe to be in a position to provide him with the information he requests about the approach of other jurisdictions because I do believe that is important. I just want to make one comment about the question of the inclusion in the Criminal Code of a ch ild abduc­ tion provision based on this kind of situation tha t is interparental. In fact, ther e is a provision in the Crimi­ nal Code th at deals with wha t we might call interpar­ ental abduction.

The difficulty with it as an enforce­ ment vehicle - and tha t's why this particular statute is being brought in - is that, first of all, it does require tha t one invokes the criminal process which, I think, it's readily understood is a very blunt instrument.

It bring s the who le force of the state in on an individual who must, beyond a reasonable doubt, be criminalized; and in order to do tha t, because it is one the major offences in the Criminal Code, the court before find­ ing such a person guilty, has to establish a guilty state of mind, has to prove th at ther e was an intention; and has to do more than tha t, has to prove what is called gu ilty kn owledge with respect to the existence of a court order favouring the other spouse. That's why that particular provision of the Criminal Code is used so rarely.

This is, in effect, a civil statute wh ich provides a broader remedial power that is not essenti ally punitive in natur e but is remedial. That, after all, is what we are aiming at; tha t is, to restore the ch ild to the parent who has lawful custody; to prevent, insofar as we can pre­ vent, this regrettable, often tragic ch ild-grabbin g under th ose circumstances. The refore, one sh ould look on it, no t as in any way different from, but rather supplementary to the existing but essenti ally inopera­ tive statute in the Criminal Code. So, again, I thank the Member for St.

No rbert for his general support for the principles of the bill and look forward to a constructiv e discussion with him in committee. QU ESTION put, MOTION carried. BIL L 33 -THE ASSES SMENT OF PRO PERTY FOR TAXATION ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs, Bi ll No . 33,

An Act to amend

an Act respecting the Assess­ ment of Proper ty for Taxat ion in the Mu nicipalities in 22 June, 1982 3473 19 81 -82, stan ding in the name of the Honour able Member for Roblin-R ussell. Th e Honour able Member for Roblin-R ussell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I've read the open­ ing statement on this bill of the Honour able Min ister, perused the bill and the report in some depth, to try and ascertain why the bill is before us and why the gov ernment of the day has seen fit to set aside this long awaited piece of legislation to deal with the assessment practices in our province. I think I'm satis­ ified, Mr.

Speaker, and I think most of the people in this province are satisfied that en ough meetings have been held already for this House and the Min ister to proceed with the recommendations of the committee, especially some of the legislative requirements which are long overdue. I suspect, Mr. Speaker, th at the Honour able Minis­ ter and the gov ernment of the day have a problem with this report because of the name of the author being Weir. I'm sure that it's go ing to take them a long time to try and digest the subject matter of the committee, especially when he was the chairman.

I went thr ough this "Clear Ch oice For All Man itobans" with a fine­ toothed comb to see if, in fact, the Ne w Democratic Party have addressed themselves to this subject mat­ ter during the campaign. I fail to see even mention of the subject. That's strange, Mr. Speaker, because this has been a longs tanding problem in this province, the assessment practices and one , I th ought, tha t at least one would have put a line in tha t great document th at we quote from on many occasions in this House. Mr .

Speaker, unfortun ately, there is no thing in tha t document, at least tha t I have been able to unveil, to sho w th at the party or the government are at all con­ cerned about this subject matter. Of course, now my suspicions are sort of reinforced by the bill tha t we have before us, where we have the Min ister ask ing for an extension of the freeze and no date, unfortuna tely. He hasn't given us any idea of when he's go ing to deal with it. I wonder if, in fact, th ey want to deal with it at all. Im wonderi ng, Mr .

Speaker, as we stand here, wha t kind of message the Honour able Min ister's gett ing from the se meetings of the Un ion of Mu nicipalities, the regional meetings that are being held in the prov­ ince at the present time. I think he was at one this morning in Min nedosa and I believe he was at one yesterday. I'm sure when he closes the debate, he'll give us some of his wisdom of what the un ion is telling him.

Some of the conversat ions I've had with union people who are atten ding th ese regiona l meetings tell me tha t the y are urging the Min ister - in fact, the resolution was on the Order Paper yesterday - to pro­ ceed immediately. Un fortunately, Mr. Speaker, that's no t going to be the way. He's going to delay thi s thing to some unkn own date. I wonder too, Mr.

Speaker, why the Min ister or why the gove rnment are backing away from the recom­ mendations of the committee, especially the legisla­ tive requirements, because in the report it's quite easy to see th at the committee recommended th ree types of asse ssment legislation shoul d take place almost immediately if we're to implement the reco mmen da­ tions of the committee. But the Min ister hasn't seen fit to do that; to follow out that gu ideline and at the end of

22 June, 1982 the first recommendation, Mr . Speaker; in the report it's quite clear. He says, in the committee's report, such a delay would be una cceptable to the public; acceptance, it says, of the committee's recommenda­ tions, but not the second alternative for the implemen­ tation which would involve the extension of Bill 10 0, at least until December 31 st, 19 87. Mr. Speaker, it says here the committee says, in thei r opinion, such a delay would be un acceptable to the public.

I think I side in with the committee report on this very important matter, that such a delay as we're experien cing with this bill is unacceptable. I think th at's what the Un ion of Municipalities and the reeves and councillors are telling the Honour able Min­ ister, tha t to delay this to 19 87 or wha tever date he has in mind is not acceptable. I'm sure he'll give us the benefit of his wisdom.

Ther e certainly may be parts of it, the legislation, more discussions with the Department of Education and the school trustees across the province to ensur e that we can come up with a fair way to sh are the provincial and municipal and school tax levies on the province, tha t th ere may be more debate required for tha t. But, Mr. Speaker, I say as I stand here today, I'm like a lot of reeves and councillors in the province, disappointed tha t the Min ister has seen fit to bring a bill before us that he's not prepared to deal with. We're going to have more reviews.

I spoke on reviews last nigh t in a sh ort address to the House. That's one of the favorite tactics of this go vern ment, to th row another review into circulation. I think we're reviewing almost everything that's of any sign ificance for this govern­ ment. I don' t kn ow whether they don't have the time or whether the y don't have the courage or because maybe this is not in their guidelines that they're not prepared to deal with at this time. Mr. Speaker, I sugge st to the Honour able Min ister that this matter has been studied in this province for many, many years.

Thi s study I think is one tha t's the best I've seen in my time. I think it's reasonab le; it's acceptable; the public's waiting for it; the Un ion of Mun icipalites are waiting for it. I gather from the regional meetings that are being held in this province at the present time, one resolution has already been directed to the Honour able Min ister - if it hasn't already, it will be directed to him - urging him to proceed at the earliest possible opportunity and not delay this long overdue legislation by putting a bill such as this before the House.

So I hope, when the Min ister closes debate, he' ll give us a little more positive indication of wh ere this government is going, to take the recommendations of this committee, not another review. There may be parts, as I spoke earlier, that need more discussion but the fi rst th ree recommendations, I think, of the com­ mittee, the public's waiting for them, the un ion is wait­ ing for them, I'm waiting for them and I hope the Minis ter will consid er. In fact, he's talking about a date; give us the date tha t you intend to ext end it.

I didn't th ink an ext ension was needed but maybe the Min ister can prove to me that he needs more time. I don' t hear tha t out in the country at all. I think the y're ready for it and the y're waiting for the legislation and he's the one who will have to carry it through this House. I look forward to the Min ister's comments when he gets around to closing debate. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs will be closing debate. 3474 HON. A. ADAM: Thank yo u, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

It's a pleasure to rise and close debate on Bill 33, a bill to extend the freeze that was implemented by the pre­ vious administration. Mr . Deputy Speaker, I am somewhat baffled and concerned by the comments that I'm hear ing from members of the Opposition. For instance, I'll start with and refer to comments made by the Member for Rob­ lin who was the last member of the Opposition to speak, in which he says he doesn't think an extension is needed. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when he makes tha t statement he indicates that he doesn't accept the report, he doesn't accept the recommend ation, because it is clear that the Assessment Review Com­ mittee has indicated in the i r preliminary report, their interim report, tha t the y recommended a freeze be extended. So now, the Member for Roblin is tak ing issue with the committee. He says they are wrong; he says they are wrong for sug gesting tha t th ere should be an extension of the freeze and we have had other people as well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, who have sug­ gested tha t; do not exte nd the freeze; go ahead and put it in place. I want to say there are more. I am receiving more requests from municipalities. The Member for Roblin says tha t municipalities want to see it proceed imme­ diately. Yes, the y do and I do. I wou ld like to see it proceed as expeditiously as is prudently possible. Yes, th ere are a few municipalities who said, yes, go ahead with it. We have received a number of letters; one said we have some concerns about the recom­ mendations but we recommend tha t you go ahe ad with it. Mr .

Deputy Speaker, I wrote back to these particular municipalities and said, would you please indicate the recommendations tha t give you some concern. Thi s is what I'm trying to find out. What are the issues or the rec ommendations, the sections that you have concerns about? Mr. Deputy Speaker, we received another corres­ pondence from a larger urban centre, a rural centre, and the y indicated the y have made some preliminary studies of the recommendations and they said, please do not proceed until you meet with us again; we wish to discuss the contents of the se recommendations.

So I say to you, to the Members of the Opposition, that it is not all that simple. As a matter of fact, the position tha t I have taken in asking my staff, first of all, to make an in-depth study of the recommendations so that they themselves will be able to ana lyse the implica­ tions and they would then be able to brief the Cabi net, the Min isters and the Members of the Leg islative Assembly and we hold heari ngs. I have asked my staff as well to do a number of projects, a number of assessments, particularly on school divisions, and that is now under way. That is taking place at the present time.

We intend to do a number of them, Mr . Deputy Speaker, perhaps half a dozen or so, in differ­ ent areas of the province in order that we can have an accurate idea of what the implications are for the people of Man itoba. In that respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have received nothing but positive corn-

ments. nothing but positive comments on the way that we are proceeding to look at this report. In fact. if I may quote from Page 3366 whe re the Me mber for Swan River who is the critic for the Oppo­ sition on Municipal Affairs. in which he says. and I quote. "I do not see anything wrong with the Minister's suggestion tha t an all-party Legis lative Committee be established." Well. Mr. Speaker. this flies in the face of the sugge stions from the Member for Roblin; it flies in the face of the comments from the Me mber for St. No rbert.

The critic for the official Opposition. of which ther e's only one. indicates tha t he finds no fault with the way I am proceeding. He sugge sts that we should not delay and he suggests that I am dilly-dallying. I don't kn ow where I have dilly-dallied on it. We have proceeded expeditiously. The staff, at the moment. are studyi ng the report and its 16 4, I believe. recom­ mendations. The Assessment Branch is no w doing assess ments at the present time. I think even today they are doing so. I fail to see where the problem is. No w. Mr. Speaker. the Member for St.

No rbert. in his comments. first of all - and he's correct - he says the recommendations and assessments are not widely under stood. Ag reed. He indicated that it was a very complex issue. Agr eed. He also indicated tha t the government he realized - and tha t is I'm trying to paraph rase or quote him as accurately as I possibly can - he said he realizes th at the government does not have to accept any of the recommendat ions if it does not want to do so and tha t is correct.

But th en he goes on to say tha t the - and as other members have said - goes on to say that th ere should be a date in the extension in Bill 33. On the one hand. the member says tha t the govern ment doesn't have to accept any of the recommendations: then he says ther e has to be a freeze. The se two statements are contrad ictory to one another. I want to advise the honour able members opposite tha t I have received requests from some of the local govern ments that have said, we have sat down and studied this as best we can and we want to ask you not to do anything until you meet with us again.

That is what we intend to do. Mr. Speaker. We are proceeding in tha t manner. As far as the freeze is concerned. Mr. Speaker. the Hono urable Member for Pembina when he spoke indicated th at the review took much longer :han - I believe it was him, I'll apologize if I'm incorrect - long er than the y had anticipated and that because of that - again tha t is a contradictory statement. On the one hand he has stated that when the y asked for a review tha t they did not expect it would take that long to do the review. Ther efore. an exte nsion is necessary. I sugge st to you. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that Bill 10 0 should have been so worded tha t we would not have had to have Bill 33 before this House. Thi s bill should not be here if members opposite had been doing their work. So now, Mr. Speaker. I am following the recom­ mendations of the Assess ment Review Committee. They have given us two alternatives: one is to extend the freeze for one year: the other alterna tive is to extend it to 19 87. Mr.

Speaker, it is not my intention to have to come back here next year to bring another bill to exten d it for another year -(Int erjection)- I'm not interested in bringing legislation just for the fun of 22 June, 1982 bringing legislation in this House, Mr. Speaker. We now have the fle xibility with this bill to remove the freeze in one year, two years, thr ee years along with the recommendations of the Assess ment Review Committee so I fail to see wh ere the problem is, Mr . Speaker.

I have indicated tha t I will be setting up a Legi slative Committee composed of members oppo­ site along with members of the govern ment side. Th ey· are part of the deal, Mr. Speaker. They will be on the road with us and report back to the next sitting of the Legi slature, tha t will be next spring, I presume. I fail to see what is wrong with the way we are proceeding. We are getting positive response on the way we are pro­ ceeding . We are doing something , Mr.

Speaker. not just for a year or two: we are trying to come up with assessment legislation tha t will be with us for a number of years, perhaps 10 , 15 years. Mr. Speaker, we want to kn ow what the implications are and the way I'm proceeding we will know and so will members kn ow. Th ey will be briefed and when we go out on these committee hearings, they will kno w what the implications are and they will be able to dialogue intelligently and constructively with members out ther e. the Mu nicipal Council and other interested groups. I recommend that th ey accept this bill as it is. We are sincere with thi s bill.

We are going to proceed as expeditiously as is prudently possible. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. IN TR ODUC TION OF GU ESTS MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: Before we continue, I'd like to direct the members' attention to the gallery on my left whe re we have 40 members of the Mo ose Lake Fishermen's Association in attendance. On behalf of all the members of the Assembly, I welcome you here today. 3475 The se individuals are obviously represented by the ML A for The Pas. On the proposed motion of the Honour able Min ister of Community Services Bill No. 51 ,

An Act to amend the Child Welfare Act. The bill stands in the name of the Honour able Member for Fort Garry. (Stand) MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Attorney-General Bill No. 53,

An Act to amend The Bui lders' Liens Act, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le privilege du cons tructeur, stands in the name of the Honour able Member for St. No rbert. (Stand) MR. DEPUTY SPEA KER: On the proposed motion of the Honour able Attorney-General Bill No. 60, The Sta­ tute Law Amendment Act, stands in the name of the Honour able Member for St. No rbert. (Stand) The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PEN NER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconde d by the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs, tha t the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. It is the intention to conti nue the debate which was adjourned last nigh t in Committee on Supplemen­ tary Estimates.

MOTION presented. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MATTER OF GR IE VAN CE HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak today on a grievance as we go into the Motion of Su pply and to use this occasion which is given to each member once in the Se ssion, to express on behalf of the people of Manit oba the real grievance tha t the y must feel about the lost opportunities, the lost expectations and hopes that are today more clear than ever before, directly attributable to this govern ment opposite. So from time to time, Mr.

Sp eaker, when some of us get up to expr ess a gr ievance we centre on an issue that is of particular concern to our constituency or to a select group in Man itoba. I today centre on issues in the course of my comments tha t affect every citizen of Manit oba and affect them in a very prejudicial way. It is rarely tha t a gov ernment so sh ortly into its term of office, it is rarely that such a government can attract to itself an indictment against it for sins of omission and commission that the y have committed in the fi rst six months or so of their term which will have a profound effect, Mr.

Speaker, upon the future of this province and as I've said before, a very deleterious effect, upon the lives of each and every citizen of this province. Mr. Speaker, it was only a week ago that we had the most unf ortuna te and sad announc ement from Alcan that they were suspending indefinitely any plans for the estab lishment of a smelter complex in the Prov­ ince of Man itoba. I don't think that I need read to the House again all of the benefits that have been post­ poned as a result of tha t unfortuna te decision by Alcan. Suf fice it to say, Mr .

Speaker, that in earlier debates in this Hous e we were admonishing this gov­ ernment to get on with bargai ning in good faith so that they could maintain and re-achieve the momentum tha t had been left to them as, if I may say so, Mr . Speaker, a solemn trust tha t the y had been left to maintain and to move ahe ad with, in terms of achiev­ ing the tho usands of jobs directly, and indirectly, that would have been available to Man itobans as a result of this smelter project.

At the very least, Sir, - because none of us on thi s side of the Ho use are blind to the forces of the econ­ omy of the Western World or of the economy of No rth America, we know tha t we're in a recess ion - but at least, Mr .

Speaker, that this government with goodwill and with some faint element of prudence could have conti nued on from the Memorandum of Un derstand­ ing tha t was in existence with Alcan, and could have assured tha t the Memoran dum of Un derstanding was unde rgirded by further agreements with Man itoba Hydro with respect to Hydro sales, and could then have convinc ed Alcan tha t it was in their interests in the shor t-term and medium and long -term to take up the options of land tha t Alcan had negotia ted in the Bal moral District after announcing practically a year ago tha t it inten ded to locate its plant there subject to envir onmen tal and subject, of course, to soci oeco­ nomic and other studies which the gov ernment and Alcan had put under way.

It was a going concern until the Min ister of En ergy 22 June, 1982 and Mines and some of the new itinerants that they brought on to their staff got a hold of it. It was a going concern and nob ody is trying to say, Mr . Speaker, that companies are not postponing cons truction deci­ sions today, of course the y are. But the difference between the postponement of the construction deci­ sion in Que bec, which was announc ed some 48 hours after the sad announc ement in Mani toba, the contr ast between tha t and wha t's happened in Man itoba, as I've said earlier, speaks a book.

In Mani toba, what were they faced with? First of all Alcan, when they started to negotia te with the Min is­ ter of En ergy and Mines and his new team, his new Dep uty Min ister of En ergy and Mines - that Ottawa Palladin tha t came around here fresh from Ed Broad­ bent's office with all of the impedimenta of doctrine and doctrinaire no nsense that office would cause to adher e to any one's skin - what were the y faced with?

First of all, with the bald statement that had been made by the New Democratic Party during the election campaign that the y would not sell to Alcan any por­ tion of a Hydro Electric Gen erating Plant which was Alcan's precondition, Mr . Speaker, for coming to Man itoba, that was the precondition. How do I kn ow that was a precondition? Because, Mr. Speaker, our government went out and sought ene rgy intensiv e companies to come to Manit oba to realize the poten­ tial of th at hyd ro-electric resource to create jobs in Man itoba based upon tha t resource.

We kn ew tha t resou rce had to be put to work for the people of Mani ­ toba. We kne w that was the primary way to harness hydr o-electric energy. Sure we're interested in a secondary and a tertiary way in export sales, primarily of course, Mr . Speaker, and first of course to Sas­ katchewan and Alberta, the Western Inter-Tie because tha t would make Limestone possible. Of course we were interested in that. 3476 But wha t in terms of priority was the first goal, the first goal of any gov ern ment based on common sense, the first goal of any gov ern ment tha t understands what this province is all about?

The first goal, Mr.

Speaker, was to make tha t energy resource work for the people of Man itoba, produce jobs for the people of Man itoba, expand the economy of the Province of Man itoba, create tax dollars for the Government of Man itoba so that through tha t expanded economy and th ose tax dollars we would then, as a govern ment and as a people, have the ability to spend more for education, for health care, for the infrastructure of our roads and transpor tation system, for the assistance tha t people from Moose Lake look for in the kind of futur e tha t the y see ahead of them, whic h is all too bleak, and any govern ment with compassion wants to see special assistance and aid given to people who need that kin d of help.

Tha t was all implicit in the development for Alcan. It was good for all of Man itoba until the Min ister of Ene rgy and Mines and his ideolog ical colleagues got a hold of it. Well, the first thing they said, Mr. Speaker, was this, we're not prepared to sell any portion of a hydro-electric plant to Alcan, and secondly, Mr. Al can, we're not fussy about the site that you've chosen, we want to take a look, and we want to review some of the sites, because in our great wisdom - and I can just hear the Min ister of En ergy and Mines who is so all­ knowing and all-seeing - in his great wisdom Alcan

really had to be second-g uessed about their site. because after all what did they kn ow about it. So, Mr. Speaker. instead of negotiation over the last few months, what we've been having in Man itoba is a kindergarten class for the Min ister of En ergy and Mines to educate him and Mr. Eliesen, his friend from Ottawa, into the basic economics of why an aluminum smelter plant should be established in Man itoba; where it should be establish ed; that it has to use power; wh ere the power would come from; why they want to have an interest in the power plant because it's a 35-year agreement and so on. Mr.

Speaker, all of tha t was gone through with the previous government and the Memor andum of Und erstanding was in place.

Because my honour able friend across the way and some of his hired advisers, his hired guns, required this kind of fund amental edu­ cation, the people of Man itoba today are faced with a situation wh ere Alcan has picked up- picked up - and left the province without any Me morandum of Un der­ standing, given up its options for a site in the Interlake, and I'm certain that this is the case, I hope it isn't the case. but I'm certain it is the case that this government will never again negotia te with Alcan, because Alcan has said, by its actions, never mind its words, Alcan has said by its actions what it think s about the sty le of negotiation carried on by the Min ister of Mines and En ergy and his hired gun s.

Mr.

Speaker. -(Int erjection)- yes, we remember as well tha t moving moment when the Min ister of En ergy and Mines in his great wisdom, aided and abetted by that great Deputy that he's brought in at $58,0 00 - to hire some socialist at 58,000 buck s out of Ed Broad bent's office - to come in to negotia te one of the bigg est deals that Man itoba has had on its platter and within its grasp, one of the linchpin s for the future development of this province and of our hydr o resource, to put tha t kin d of person and people in charge of the negotiati ons is nothing sh ort of negli­ gence on the part of the First Min ister coming as both of them, the Min ister and that Deputy do, as I say, carting about tha t parapher nalia of ideology and inflexibility and all of the doctrinaire no nsense that comes with closed minds who are wedded to this kind of silly 19 th Centur y doctrine.

So. Mr . Speaker, the Alcan project, the capacity that could be put in place in Man itoba, the $800 million plant is suspended indefinitely. Forty-e ight hour s later Alcan annou nces tha t with respect to the replacement of a plant at Arvida, it is taking up options in the Pro vince of Que bec; it has secured the approval of the Go vernment of Que bec with respect to envir­ on mental matters and the location of a plant south of Arvida and that while it is not announcing the date of the plant's construc tion, that is the site tha t has been selected, everything is in place. ready to go. No w, Mr.

Speaker. there's the contr ast. When new capacity is put into place in Canada by Alcan it's going to be put into place in Que bec because this govern­ ment fumbled the ball. New capacity is new capacity. It's eithe r for replacement of existing capacity or it's expansion capacity.

My ho nour able friend can read from all of the nice news reports that he wants to read from and from all of the self-ser ving documents that he wants to pull out which say what a great fellow he is and what a great negotiator he is, according to the 22 June, 1982 First Minis ter - all of which is so much bafflegab - he can read from all of this business tha t he wants, but the fact remains that whe n Alcan get into the business of putting new capacity in place in Canada, they're going to put it into place in Quebec before the y put it into place in Man itoba. Period. Parag raph and thanks very much.

Th anks very much, Mr. Speaker, to this incompetent government opposite and in particular to this Min ister who has dropped the ball. Did they not realize tha t we weren't kidding when we told them a year ago tha t we're in competition for this plant, with Que bec, with British Columbia wh ere Al can already have facilities in place, indeed with Aus­ tralia and other places ar ound the world? -(I nter­ jection)- Somebody across the way says giveaway. Is that the runaway talking about giveaways? Well, Mr. Speaker, yes, a runaway talking about a giver..vay. Mr.

Speaker. we had a run through the giveaway syn­ drome the other night with the First Min ister in his Estimates and the First Minis ter of this province who was running around the province talking about giveaways was not able to demonstrate in one instance, in any instance that he had cited whe ther it be Trout Lake, whe ther it be Tant alum Mine s, whether it be the Alcan nego tiation, the Potash negotiation, any thing at all wh ere there was any giveaway to substantiate his election rheto ric because ther e weren't any givea­ ways. -(I nterject ion)- The member across the way says, "What about CPR?" Why doesn't he go and talk about the Grand Trunk Pacific?

He would kn ow more about tha t. Mr. Speaker, we're not talking about the CPR. We're talking about an industry that this incom­ petent govern ment in six months has managed to lose for Man itoba. We're talking about a kind of pigh­ eadedness that has ill served the public interest of this province. We're talking about Que bec having beaten Man itoba in six months in getting smelting capacity put in place when that company is next able to build it. 3477 The Minis ter of En ergy and Mines screwed up his courage and went out to Stonewa ll about two or th ree weeks ago and what did he tell them out the re?

He told them that negotiations were going well. Yes, negotia ­ tions were going well and that they didn't have to worry about anything at all. Wh at did the First Min ister say when he was talking about these projects in his Estimates, Mr. Speaker? Oh, the negotiations were going very well. I think I used the word "swimmingly" and he didn't deny that at all. Well, Mr.

Speaker, they drowned in mid-chan nel last week; these negoti11ti ons that the First Minis ter said were going so well, tha t the Min ister of En ergy and Mines assured the people of Stone wall who were genui nely concerned because they were to be the prime beneficia ries in the fi rst instance of this new economic injection of life into our province. He told them things were going very wel l.

The master was in charge of all the nego tiations but all of a sudden Al can pulled the plug and his ship sank in mid-channel and Man itobans are the one s left to pay the price for the kind of tink ering, for the kind of ill-consi dered baffle­ gab that my honour able friends opposite are so good at, the kind of fussiness that they were enga ged in with respect to Alcan's ads. Boy, Mr. Speaker, if they had the chance to ask Alcan again about the ads, would they do that again? Don' t they wish today that Alcan was running an advertising campaign, talking about

22 Ju ne, 1982 establishin g a plant in Man itoba? Would th ey be so supersensitiv e today, Mr. Speaker? I rather think not, if they're capable of learning anything. Or are the y like the Bourbons as I sugge st they perh aps are? - the y learn nothing and they forget nothing. I think th at's what we have across the way, a bunch of frozen minds, Mr . Speaker, frozen in their own ideology, and the inability to be flex ible in negotia ­ tions, the inabi lity to see a vision for something that is good for the people of Manitoba.

But no, when their funny ideas about owner ship of part of a Hydro plant get in the way, th ose take precedence over the public interest in Manitoba. Well, that's not good enough, Mr . Speaker. I listened with a great deal of disb elief today, Mr. Speaker, when I saw the Min ister of En ergy and Min es wh isper into the First Min ister's ear and then the First Min ister got up with tha t sort of itinerant snake oil salesman look on his face and said, if the deals were so good, why did you call the election when you did?

The Min ister of En ergy and Mines tried tha t, what I call campy joke, during the course of his Estimates and I never heard of such high camp in my life. Mr. Speaker, you'r e indicating to me tha t th ere's still some time left. I want to talk about the Gr id. The second annou ncement today, the Gr id's been lost and the Grid was the linchpin for the starting of Limestone and thi s gov ern ment now has no economic justifica­ tion for starting Limestone. And what are the y going to say about tha t? The Min ister from Alberta is saying pretty clearly, Mr .

Speaker, why the Gr id is not going to go ahead or it's going to be postponed for at least two years. He's saying that this gov ern ment didn't nego tiate, didn't get up off the mat fast enoug h. No, they were too busy having meeting s with Mr. Blake­ ney and with some of their other doctrinaire friends; th ey were too busy doing things like that or not even meeting with the Min isters; too busy catering to some of their funn y ideas. Th ey were going to drive a new, hard bargain. Well, the y drove some bargain all right, Mr. Speaker, the y drove Alberta right out of the bar­ gaining room.

Tha t's the kin d of bargain tha t th ey have negotia ted. So when we come to the Grid, Mr. Speaker, we kn ow th at the concept of the Western Power Grid was some­ thing th at started back in 19 78, goes back to 19 62 to the National Power Gr id, the link age tha t we could have had thr ough B.C. up through the southern states into Man itoba and so on, that's not new even though some writers in the Free Press seem to think it is. That's not a new concept at all and we were doing something about it, Mr. Speaker.

I want to say tha t the negotiations tha t have been carried on by thi s Min ister and by his Deputy have been unreasonab le. They've flubbed on two deals already. They've driven one major developer, Alcan, out of thi s provin ce. The y've succeeded, in six shor t months, in driving Alberta out of an agreement which the thr ee Min isters had agreed upon last October and which is now being cons idered, or thought to be con­ sidered, by the respective govern ments, an ag ree­ ment tha t Premier Allan Blakene y last October said, could be settled in a matter of weeks.

No w Alberta's gone from it because of the ineptitude, the inflexibil ity of the Honour able Min ister of En ergy and Mines and his Deputy Min ister. Mr. Speaker, we're used to kooky ideas coming from across the way. We're used to the loony fringe of the NOP with their funn y resolutions talking about expropriating Shell and Imperial Oil and so on and so forth. We're not used to, Mr. Speaker, tha t kind of loon iness affecting the public interest in Man itoba and tha t's what happene d in Alcan and in the Western Power Inter-Tie. That is what has happened. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time being 4:30, I'm interrupting the proceedings for Private Members' Hour. MR. SPEAKER: The first item on the agenda for today is the point of order from the Honour able Member for Turtle Mo untain. MR. B. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe there's an agreement between the Gov ern ment and the Opposition th at Pr ivate Members' Hour will be dispens ed with today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, tha t's my under­ stan ding as well, tha t we will proceed with the gov­ ernment busine ss whic h is at hand at the calling of 4:30. 3478 MATTER OF GRIE VAN CE (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: With the leave of the House, the motion before the House is the grievance by the Hon­ ourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Perhaps, Sir, you could give me some indication of how much time I have to pursue my grievance. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Our rules do not indi­ cate any limit on the Honour able Leader of the Oppo­ sition's time. HON. S. LYON: I listened, Mr.

Speaker, with some disbelief today when I heard the First Min ister make the statement, not only the "camp" statement about the election, that is, that high humour that was wh is­ pered into his ear by the Minister of Energy and Mines, but I listened to the First Min ister with disbelief when he said that our govern ment had been raising false expectations among the people of Manitoba with respect to the Gr id and Alcan and I suppose the potash mine as well.

The First Min ister, who is any­ thing but glib , was betraying a kind of shallow cyni­ cism in this respect tha t I find unfitting, really, from somebody who's given the responsi bility of directing the affairs of the province and bringing negotia tions of thi s sort to a successful conclusion. Raising false ex pectations? Mr . Speaker , was Alcan raising false ex pectations when the y took out options on land in the Interlake and said, this is the site th at we have selected, and the y paid money out to farmers and to busine ss people in that area and said, we choose to locate our plant here?

Was th at the raising of false expectat ions ? I rather think not. The people in the

Interlake took it seriously. Some 3, 500 of them signed a petition not too long ago and sent it to the Minis ter of En ergy and Mines and said that the y wanted that smelter to be located in the Interlake. No, I don' t think that was a false ex pectation. If the First Minis ter is right, then by implication, Mr.

Speaker, he's saying tha t Alcan was somehow or other in this kin d of cloud cuckooland area of thinking tha t he's enga ged in, tha t Alcan was somehow by implication, a party to some kind of a vague political conspiracy to raise the expectations of the people of Manit oba about the location of a smelter plant in Man itoba. What arrant no nsense, Mr. Speaker. Even coming from the First Min ister, that's arrant no nsense. Mr . Speaker, is he going to say tha t as well about the Grid? I believe I mentioned, Mr.

Speaker, that the current negotiations on the Grid were started at the Western Premiers' Co nference, April of 19 78. Premier Blaken ey, Premier Ben nett, Premier Loughe ed of Alberta and myself attended that mee ting and one of the larger annou ncements coming out of the commu­ nique from tha t meeting had to do with the agreement of the four western govern ments then to start a feasi­ bility study with respect to a Western Power Gr id.

To the press who were there at the time and subsequently when Premier Loughe ed came to Manit oba in April of 19 78, the two of us made a joint announc ement here in the Cabi net room saying that we had the authori ty now to move ahe ad with this study for the feasibility of the Western Power Grid.

Is the First Mini ster of Manit oba today trying to say somehow or other tha t this was just something that we'd conjured up in our imagination and that the Pre­ mier of Alberta was somehow or other and the Premier Blakene y of Saskatchewan was somehow or other a cons pirator with the former gove rnment tryi ng to raise the expectations of the people of Man itoba? Mr. Speaker, that's unb elievable. When you hear tha t kind of no nsense coming fr