MG-11048 Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 97 • 1: 30 p.m., THU RSDAY, JULY 8, 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATI VE: ASSEMBL V Thirty- Fifth Leglsllature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky , CA RSTAIRS, Sharon CER ILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEW AR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCH ARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESH AMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis . HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPIN E, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTIT UENCY Osborne Thompscm Wellingtc1n River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

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5242 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, JulyS, 19 93 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRE SENTING PETITIONS Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Stella Dyck, Tena Fro ebe, Karen Huisman and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) to cons ider restor ing the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-1 994 budget. Mr. Gregor y Dewar (Selki rk) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Diane Mauws, Helen Alexander, Phyllis Hayhurst and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) to consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the '93-94 budget. RE ADING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave ). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and WHERE AS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Childr en's Dental Program; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effec t for 1 7 years and has been recognized as extremely cost- effective and critical for many families in isolated commu nities; and WHERE AS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the prov iders before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants pro viding this service ; and WHER EAS preve ntative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider res toring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It compl ies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Progr am; and WHERE AS several studies have pointed out the cost sav ings of preventative and treatment health care prog rams such as the Childr en's Dental Program; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHER EAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service ; and WHER EAS preve ntative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider res toring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget.

5243 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Man itoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 1 ,000 young adults are cur rently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade the ir ed ucation thro ugh the Student Social Allo wances Program; and WHERE AS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHER EAS the pro vin cial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHERE AS the pro vincial governm ent is now proposing to eli minate the Stude nt Social Allo wances Program; and WHERE AS eli minating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full- time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restor ing funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos ). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and compl ies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WH ERE AS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their edu cation through the Student Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHER EAS the pro vincial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in inc:reased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHERE AS the pro vincial government is now prop osing to eli minate the Stude nt Social Allo wances Program; and WHER EAS eli minating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thou: sand young people being forced onto city welfSire with no means of getting further full- time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleas:ed to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restor ing funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable me mber (Mr. Chomiak). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the pro vince of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHER EAS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the Student Social Allo wances Program; and WHER EAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHERE AS the pro vi ncial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHERE AS the pro vincial government is now proposing to eli minate the Stude nt Social Allo wances Program; and WHERE AS eli minating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full- time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

July 8, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5244 WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Le gislative Ass emb ly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Reid). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade the ir edu cation through the Student Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WHER EAS the pro vi ncial gove rnment has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and WHERE AS the pro vincial government is now propos ing to elimin ate the Student Social Allowances Program; and WHERE AS elim inating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. * (1 335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Com mittee on Economic Development): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Eigh th Report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development. Mr. Clerk (Willi am Remnan t) : Your Standing Comm ittee on Economic Developm ent presents the following as its Eighth Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, July 6, 19 93, at 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the annual re port of the Manitoba Deve lopm ent Corporation for the year ended March 31 , 19 92. Mr. Jim Kilgour, assistant director, and Mr. Bill Kinnear, past director, financial services branch, Industr y, Trade and Tou rism, provided such information as was requested with respect to the annual rep ort and business of the Manitoba Development Corporation.

Your committee has considered the annual report of the Manitoba Development Corporation for the year en ded March 31 , 19 92, and has adopted the same as presented. All of which is respect fully submitted. Mr. Rei mer: Mr. Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the ho nourable me mber for St. Norber t (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. *** Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chai rperson of the Standing Comm ittee on Pub lic Utilities and Natural Resources) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Sixth Report of the Standing Com ­ mittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr.

Clerk: Your Standing Commit tee on Public Ut ilities and Natural Resour ces presents the following as its Sixth Report. Your committee met on Tuesday, July 6, 19 93, at 7 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider the annual reports of the Crown Corpora­ tions Council for the years ended December 31 , 19 90, December 31 , 19 91 , and December 31 , 19 92. Mr. Kev in Kavanagh, chairman, and Mr. Douglas Sherwood, president and chief executive officer, provided such information as was requested with respect to the annual reports and business of the Crown Corporations Counc il.

Your com mittee has consider ed the annual reports of the Crown Corporations Council for the years ended December 31 , 19 90, Dec emb er 31 , 19 91 , and December 31 , 19 92, and has adopted the same as presented. All of which is respectf ully submitted.

5245 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 Mr. Laurende au: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable memb er for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that the report of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUE STION PERIOD Home Care Program Housekeeping Services Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

Throughout the de bate on home care, dealing with del ivery of se rvices , meals, laundry, and housek eeping in the Home Care Program to provide for the independence and dignity of people living in their own com munities, the Minister of Health has conti nually said that this is a more sophisticated approach to home care, that they are maintaining the se rvices, and on and on in his answers in this House.

Today , we have a second report from the director of geriatrics at the Health Sciences Centre that specific ally states that this will cost us more in terms of the patients of Manitoba, and it will result in people staying in institutions longer, defeating the governm ent's stated intent of pro viding greater commu nity care and greater care of health care services in the community. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: Whom are we to believe in the debate?

Are we to bel ieve the two directors of ge riatrics in the province of Manitoba who are speaking out on behalf of the people affected by this issue, or are we to believe the Minister of Health who says that everyth ing will be maintained and it is business as usual for home care patients in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I am pleased my honourable friend asked the question. Let me deal with the issue of the

article in the Free Press to day. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated when this issue came up, I believe on Tuesday of this week, I indicated in the House and outside the Ho use that the provi sion of home care services will not compromise the ability to discharge individuals from hospital because t!,e services required and assessed will be pro vided. That includes domestic services such as ht:>usekeeping if it is deemed necessary, in addition to home care attendant, the me dical services, the nurses' servic es.

That is the way it has been since the inception of the J>r ogram , but what is at issue that my honourable friend the New Democrat is not willing to admit is that the dom estic ser vices of, for instance, vacuuming the rugs, have been part of the Home Care Program until19 85. In 19 85, under the Pawley government, a decision was made to introd'uce Support Services to Seniors which would provide at charge to the seniors those domestic servi c:es of vacu uming and laundry. Th1� medical services were maintained from 19 85 on as they are to day, in fact are increased. Mr. D'oer: Mr.

Speaker, the minister keeps telling us in this House, and this is why we want the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to answe r the question, because we have experts in geriatrics saying there is a fundamental change and it is going to impact on the1 return to the communities of people. We are hearing from the disabled community; we are hE1aring from the seniors; we are hearing from the h•�ads of geriatrics, w ho are calling his own Minister of Health's policies, health care deform, Mr. Speaker, not health care reform. Mr. Speaker, I want to table a memo in the House from the minister's own department.

The memo states that this is a, quote, change in the delivery. It states that clien ts in Home Care "will need to make private arrangements for household cleaning and laun dry." It goes on further to state , "Themfore, household maintenance and laundry servic,es will not be provided to many of the home care clie nts now receiving these servic es." Can the Premier please answer us?

Whom are we to belie ve , the heads of geria trics in the province of Manitoba at our two major hospitals, the seniors, the disabled of Manitoba, or the Minister of Health who says everyth ing is okay in this province on horne care? * (1 340) Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, let me indicate to my honourable friend that the policy has not changed , the ability to access the service has not changed. The same referral for domestic services that the client will pay for today was started in 19 85 by the NDP. That is consistent.

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5246 Mr. Speaker, I ca n understand the confusion, because there are those who have phoned my of fice, and no doub t phoned the oppo sitio n, believing that home care, nursing services, medical se rvices, are being canc e lled. That is not accu rate. They have been increased in this budget as they have in every single budget. Mr. Speaker, I ca n believe where one would have the wrong impression, because Dr.

Powell has indicated in the Free Press two days ago that he only got his information about health care reform not from the department directly, but from the Free Press or the hospital union notice board . I checked with the reporte r to make sure that was accurate . I have 14, minimum, meetings that Dr. Powell was at on reform of heal th care as hea d of geriatrics services in St. Boniface, discussing the reform issues. They com men ced with him on Octo ber 5, 19 92, straight through until November of last year. Those me etings were cons tantly keeping people like Dr. Powell informed about health car e reform .

Little wonder there is confusion. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister, in answering the question that I posed about the memo in his own department, changes the information that was required from the que stion . There is a fundamental shift and change in the delivery of home care in his own department. There is a fundamental change in terms of people getting these services. There are going to be fewer people provided the service than before. It says many home care clie nts now receiving these ser vices will no t have them provided. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon): Who is going to stand up fo r the disabled people, for the seniors in this provi nce, for the people who relied on home care services to live in dignity, to work in dignity, to raise a family in dignity in Manitoba, rather than having the cutbacks that are going on from his Minister of Health, putting them back in institutions? Will this Premier finally stand up, or will he sit idly by while his Minister of Health destroys our health care syste m, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Orchar d : Mr.

Speaker, my honour able friend's rhetor ic, my honourable friend's alarmist statem ents, my honourable friend's attempt to make a narrow, political, partisan, fearmongering issue is disgracefu l. The memo my honourable friend tabled says household maintenance and laundry services, domestic services, vac uuming the rugs and doing the laundry-ser vices that since 19 85 under a policy that my honourable friend sat around the cabinet table and approved-have been referred by the Conti nuing Care Pro gram for individuals to pay for those services s ince 19 85. That is continuing today .

It is even talking about $6 to $9 per hour for vacuuming and laundry. These are the dom estic housekeeping services that since 19 85 under the policy of the NDP have been referred to alternate suppliers and not the taxpayer-sup ported home care syste m. That is why, Sir, I say nothing has changed except now, my honourable friend the Ne w Dem ocrat, instead of sitting around cabinet deciding that is appropriate policy, is now trying to deny what he did in 19 85 and is in opposition to day. • (1 345) Home Care Program Consultations Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, nothing has changed except a $3-million program is eliminated. Nothing has changed except 1 ,500 caregivers are now being told they are being privatized in this letter. Nothing has changed except the heads of the departments at hospitals that deliver the service are saying this is wrong. Nothing has changed. Som ething should change and it should be the minister. My ques tion for the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) is: Will the Premier put this policy on hold and consult, at least consult and talk to some people who deliver this service rather than listening to his Minister of Health who obviously is not stating the facts as they exist, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, when we did consult and seek the advice of a Dr. Powe ll, it says that, the only time you got information on health refor m was from the i=ree Press or the union notice board. That hardly is a reasonable approach to the amount of input that doctor had on health care reform.

That is the reason why there is such confusion, because my honourable friends are wanting to leave Manitobans with the impression that the Home Care Program no long er exists or will be cut

5247 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY C>F MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 back dramatically. That is not right, Sir. That is not right. The Home Ca re budget has increased again this year. I gave to my honourable friends in Estimates, page 4500 and on-and I will share with my honourable friend again. This year home care attendant services, which are the personal health services, will increase by 11 percent this year. Reg istered nursing will increase by 9.5 percent this year. Victorian Order of Nurses will increase by 3.6 percent this year.

That is more medical services, and, Sir, what is going to decrease is the domes tic services of vacuuming and laundry, as has been the policy since 19 85. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Will the Premier at least consult with the officials, the caregivers, the doctors who have spoken up, the health care workers who are contacting our office by the dozens daily, the seniors who are affected ? Will he at least consult with them and put the program on hold, and at least talk to the people who are involved in this program before cutting this progr am?

Will he at least do that? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, now you understand why citizens would bel ieve the Home Care Program is not going to ex ist, because my honour able friend is talking about cutting this program, when hours of registered nursing service to be purchased this year to help support the Home Care Program will increase by 9.5 percent this year-not a decrease, but an increase of almos t 10 percent. Our services from Victorian Order of Nurses to support the Home C are Program will increase by almo st 4 percent this year.

The home car e attendant program to help people get dressed, to help people be bathed, to help people with other non-nursing but medical needs, will increase by 11 percent this year. Mr. Speaker, that is more opportu nity for care, for independent living, for betterment of life in their own homes than what was available last year. It is an increase in the program that wm make the program serve Manitobans better, not worse, and not a cut that my honourable friend refers to. * (1 350) APM Management Consultants Home Care Program Mr. Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, the minister does not refuse to recognize the only letter sent ctut by his own department. Mr. Speaker, my final supplem entary to the Premiier (Mr. Filmon): Will the Premier at least, given that this $3-million program has been cut back, will he at least assure this House that Connie Curran will not sign the fifth contract which is to review Home Care, and it has not been signed yet? Will he at leas t promise not to let the Connie Cur ran gravy train be on Home Care as well and not si!gn the Home Care contract while this whole thing is put on hold? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speafter, it would not matter how much information I provide d to my honou rable frie nd the Ne w Demc tcrat. You know, we went through this in 19 89, and I dug out all of the old letters, including a retablilng of a 19 89 letter by the NDP that was four years old on the same issue. Now, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friends the New Dem ocrats in 19 89 tried to make the same allege1tions, that we were destro ying the Home Care Program, that it wou ld not exist. The same flurry •of phone calls came to my office. The same concerns were expressed.

Now, four years later, the program has gone from $34 million to $68 million. Thifl year, it will provide 11 percent more home care attendant services, 10 percent more nursing servic,es by R.N.s, 4 percent more Victorian Order of Nurses services, but if Manitobans listen to the NDP, then they will be griev ously m"1sled, Sir. Crllmlnallnjurles Compensation Fund Delndexlng Mr.

F1 aul Edwards {Leader of the Second Opposition): I know it will have been a matter of great concern to all membe rs of this House, and I would assume particularly the Minister of Justice, that, unfortunately, we have received the Winnipeg crime statistics and learned that sex offences are up 14 percent. Assault, not sexual, is up 19 percent, and robberies are up 16 percent. These are crimes against the person of a very serious nature1.

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5248 My ques tion is for the minister. Given this increase, which is relatively dramatic in one year for crimes against the person increasing in our city, why, given that and the large number of victims who are being created as a result of these very serious crimes, is the minister proposing in Bill 46, curr en tly before this House, to deindex what amou nts might be payable to the victims of crime under the Criminal Injuries Compe nsation Board?

Why is he choosing this time, when we have more vi ct ims of cr ime, to deindex and cut the benefits to the victims of crime? Hon. James McCrae (Minis ter of Justice and Attorney General): I looked with interest and concern today at some statistics relating to a surge in various crimes in the city of Winnipeg, and I join with my honourable friend in expressing concern about that, but he forgets to men tion that the number of impaired drivers dropped 16 percent the fourth year in a row.

The honourable member should remember that, too, and maybe be reminded about the position that he took on Bill 3 when we tried so hard in this Legislature, over his various objections, to try to get that legislation through, and we are pleased that we have Bi113. On the other hand, the honourable me mber makes a good point about ot her crimes. I think that the increase in the incidence of domes tic violence should be no surprise, because ever since the late Gerrie Hammond began the Abuse is a Crime campaign, we have deliberately made it known to women and vulnerable people in society that help is available.

By doing that, we have found that people are far more prepared to seek that help than they have in the past. That is reflected in these statistics, Mr. Speaker, as well. Youth crime is a matter of some concern to us. We and the Province of Alberta last month at the Attorneys General meeting dem anded that the Young Offenders Act be thoroughly reviewed. It will be reviewed, and a repor t will be made available to Attorneys General next fall. I hope to see some amendments in that area as early as next spring. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the minister talked a lot but did not answer the question. Mr.

Speaker, two-year increase in sex offe nces totals 18 percent, two-year increase in assaults constitutes 43 percent increase, two-year increase in robbery is 34 perce nt-we are experiencing dramatic increases in crimes against the person. The people who are injured in those crimes and are un able to work go to the Crimin al Injur ies Com pensation Boar d for com pensation. This minister, this year, has chosen to deindex those benefits to those victims of crime. Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is, why? Mr.

McCrae: We chose this year to keep that program, which is saying something when you consider that the program began becaus e­ [interjection] l am sorry I did not hear you. Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the second opposition party has already put his question, and I believe the honourable member is waiting for the answer. The honourable Minister of Justice will deal with the matter that has been raised. * (1 355) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I was trying to give the honourable memb er an answer. He is nattering from his seat and I could not make myself heard. That program started, Mr.

Speaker, because of sign ificant contri bution to it by the fed er al gove rnm ent, and the go vernm ent has been withdrawing from that. This creates very significant problems for all the pro vincial jurisdictions, and certainly ours. This was a way that we thought we could keep the program for those victims who need this kind of program and we can be of some help to, but unfortunately, because of the availability of funds, this decision had to be made. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker, I am quite shocked to learn that the gove rnment was even cont em plating eradicating the program, and that it is supposed to be some wonderful benefit that it is saved , albeit at a lesser amount. Mr. Speaker, my further question for the minister: Why, given this dramatic increase in the crimes against the person, is he also, by Bill 53, The Jus tice for Victims of Crime Amendmen t Act, proposing to delete that

section of the act which allowed for payme nts to be made, payments from the Consol idated Fund, while at the same time he did not delete the

section which allo wed payme nts out of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Fund to be paid to the gove rnment.

5249 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 Who is going to continue to pay for the Criminal Injuries Compen sation Fund? Why has he deleted the

section which allowed for payments? I believe over $2 million was paid las t year from the Consol idated Fund. Is that money now going to be cut off? Mr. McC rae : I am having a little trouble understanding the honourable mem ber's question, Mr. Speaker. It is true that the victims' programs that are run by the government of Manitoba are very efficient and effective. We served many, many hundreds of people in Manitoba through- An Honourable Member: That is why you are ... less and less and less. Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable me mber for St. Johns has the floor now.

The honourable Leader of the Second Opposition party has already had his opportunity. Now it is the opp ortunity of the honourable member for St. Johns. Home Care Program Housekeeping Services Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): I know we cannot accuse the Minister of Health of misleading the House, but, Mr. Speaker, we can wonder if the minister is telling the truth if we are getting dozens of calls from residents of north Winnipeg who have just been informed that they have been cut off of home care. Mr.

Speaker, on June 30, I very specifically asked the minister the question, could he tell us whether patients or individuals with arthritis or dementia will only get support services if they need a medical servi ce? He answered, no. Today, I have been informed of a constituent who has chronic arthritis, severe arthritis, who had been getting home care on a daily basis and has just been informed that she will receive no home care as of September 1. She has also been told that she does not meet the new criteria.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he can tell us how he can justify this hurtful cutback, and will he tell us specifically, what are the criteria that staff are using in the field to determine eligibility? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, I would be delighted to answer my honourable friend's question in full detail if my honourable friend would do me the courtesy of providing me with the individual's name in which we can make a full investigation and determine whether my honourable friend's circumstances, as placed in Question Period, are accurate, the circums tances behind that circum stance as stated by the' member in the House, and I will provide my honourable friend with an answer.

But without specifics attached to know what the individual, whomever this individual is, was receiving from Home Car e and wh at kind of com munications, et cetera, I cannot answer the ques ti>on, Sir. Now, if my honourable friend can provide me with the name, I would be pleased to check this out for my hcmourable friend, as I have consistently indicated every time New Dem ocrats bring up these individual circums tances. But, Sir, in the last five years, I have only had two or three referrals of individuals for follow-up. The rest of them have never been referred to me by name. I hope this one is. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, we are getting dozens of calls and will be happy to get that information to the minister as fast as we can keep up with it and compile it. Let me ask- Mr. Sj!)eaker: Order, please. The honourable mem b1H for St. Johns, with her question. • (1 400) Ms. W1 111sylycla-Lels: Let me ask the minister then about the criteria that some staff are using in the field, which is that home maintenance and laundry will no longer be provided as part of the continuing care sorvice except for those individuals who are cognitively impaired and do not have someone to direct their services.

Would the minister please clarify what criteria are being used in the field, and would he table the criteria for all mem bers in the House today? Mr. Or<e:hard: Mr. Speaker, those are exactly the criteria that I discussed during the Estim ates of Home Care on Monday, June 21 , in the afternoon and again in the evening. Mr. 8peaker, I hope my honour able friend can provide• me with this individual's name so I can follow Ulp. In 19 ,89 when the New Democr ats attempted to make this issue a major issue at the time, I received five individuals' names from the Leader of the Opposiltion, the member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer). When we cont acted those peop le , they were

Jul y 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5250 unaware that they had made a complaint to the Home Care Program and were offended at being called, because the complaint, Sir, came in from one of the free bie mailers at taxpayers' expense that the member for Concordia sent out. If you had concerns about home care , you could tick it off. When those names came to us, some of them were not even on the Home Care Progr am. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the integrity that I experienced four years ago.

Every time I have asked my honourable friends to give me a name of this disaffected individual, it has only been on about three occasions that I have actually received an individual's name. I hope today is not one of those times where I do not receive an individual's name. Ms. Wasylyc la-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the minister that we will be providing all the details of this individual and all the others that we are receiving. Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable mem ber for St. Johns is going to put her final supplementary question. Alternative Services Ms. Judy Wasylyc la-Lels (St. Johns) : Mr.

Speaker, let me ask, for my final ques tion to the Minister of Health, about the information pro vided in his own quarterly report showing approximately 5,000 individuals in the province of Manitoba who only receive support for daily living activities and would therefore appear to be ineligible for Home Care. Could the Minister of Health tell us how many of these almo st 5,000 individuals will be cut off of Home Care and what services they can turn to to remain independen t in their homes and in their communi ties? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend the member for St.

Johns had a list of pink phone slips of which she has duplicates in her office. She used them to refe r to these phone calls. Would she just kindly send them over, and we can start investigating these as soon as I receive them? Any other response my honourable friend may- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The minister is somehow suggesting that our rules which apply to letters should apply to the mes sage slips, the pink slips that we record messages on.

The minister should know that there is .. . undertaken to provide that information. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the only pink slip we would like to see is from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to this minister. Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member clearly does not have a point of order. That is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to finish with your response. Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speak er, I never want to ques tion the political motivation of the member for St.

Johns, who is a candidate in the federal election, but by refusing to send over those names today and having their House leader stand up and defend her, to not do it when she has used them and flourished them in front of the House, I have to question my honourable friend's motivation. Does she care for the people like I do and I am willing to investigate, or is this a political issue? Now, if it is care for the individual, please provide me with the names right now, and I will start the investigation before the end of Question Period. If it is otherwise, good luck in the election campaign. Point of Order Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: On a point of or der, Mr. Speaker, I only have one copy of this information. As fast as I can write out this information on a piece of paper, the minister will have it. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member knows she does not have a point of order. Student Social Allowances Program Funding Elim ination Justification Ms. Jean Fr iesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, when the Minister of Family Services eliminated student social allowances, he argued that students had three choices-they could return home, they could find part-time work and go to school the other time, or they could alternate full-time work with a year of full-time study. Today , in the comm ittee hearing on Bill 32, we heard from a youth employment work er, a woman of 13 years experience, who had worked with

5251 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 student social allowance students and said that in her view, fewer than 5 percent could return home and that with a Grade 10 education, fewer than 2 percent could have access to a ful l-time or part-time job. My question to the minister is: Does he have any other evidence that would convince this House that over a thousand students will not end up on welfare as a result of his policy? Hon. Harold Gllle shammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the member is correct. We are in committee as of today to talk about this particular piece of legislation.

It was interesting to note that a lot of information came forward . I was particul arly pleased to see a young me mber present at the com mittee who recognized the tremendous debt and deficit problems this province has and the recognition that in these very difficult times, as the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) has said on many occasions, difficult decisions have to be made. One of the advantages of the comm ittee syst em, of course, is to be able to present information to the public. There were members of the public who assumed this was a program that referred to 16 - and 17 -year-olds.

It is not surprising, given the comm ents made by members opposite, that there is that information out there. I am pleased to be able to tell the public of Manitoba that this was a program for adults. We were also able to talk to people from the Winnipeg Education Centre, where out of 2,1 00 students, somewhere around 400 were on student social allowance and recognition that there are 1, 600 or 1 ,700 who work part time, who have other resources, who, for whatever reason, are able to make the ir way to the Education Ce ntre and acquire an education . Ms. Friesen: Mr.

S peaker, would the minister be prepared to table a one-year budget for a student or family on minimum wage, which is what is available when you have a Grade 10 education, which would show how that student could live in year one and create the savings, essentially gener ate the surplus to go to school in year two, as the minister is suggesting? Mr. Gllles hammer: Mr. Speaker, the member is well aware that the individual circums tances of students--and we have thousands and thousands attending university, com munity colleges, who work 1>art time, who take school part time and do it successfully.

We are aware that some of the individuals who are on provincial social assistance when they are single parents are able to go to school at the same time because of the Single Parent Job Access Program. We are aware of disabled Manitobans who are on provincial social assistance who are also furthering their education. Those people who are accessing the student progrs1m that we have been discussing, many of them have the ability to work. All of them have the ability to work, because that is why they are on the municiipal social assistance from time to time.

We saw evidence today, both in written form and by presentation, of Manitobans who combine both work a.nd going to school . Ms. Fr·lesen: As the minister knows, students who go to college and university have access to student loans. My question was very simple. The minister said, go to school, and then go to work- sandwich those two things. I want him to table a budget which will show us how that can be done. It is a simple question. He has the staff; let him do it. Mr.

Glllleshamme r: Part of the information we were a1ble to discuss with the public this morning and make people aware of the many programs that exis t. I woul d reference the Workforce 2000 program that comm ittee members spoke about this mornin g, where hundreds and hu ndreds of Manitobans were able to get their training and job skills through the Workforce 2000 program . The member also was on record this morning as saying that she would favour having the program phased out rather than completely chopped.

I see some rec ogni tion from the memb er that she realizels the difficult economic times that we are in. * (1 410) Point of Order Ms. Frllesen: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, my question was to a question of would he favour whether the program should be phased out or not. I was not on record as saying that. I think the minister perhaps was not listening as carefully as he m'lght- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable mem be•r does not have a point of order. That is a dispute over the facts.

July 8, 1993 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5252 *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister, to finish with his response. Mr. Gll leshammer: I am certainly prepared to check the record, but I believe I clearly heard the memb er say that s he favour ed phasing the program out. Again, we have hear d from a numb er of Manitobans this mor ning and we will hear from some more tonight, and it is a good chanc e for us to bring further information to people who are looking for assistance for educa tion. Emergency Home Repair Program Funding Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr.

Speaker, I am somewh at disappointed in the Minister of Housing. The other night I has asked him a question with respect to the Emer gency Home Repair Program , asked about the cutback from 500,000 to 400,000. The Minister of Housing indicated to me that in fact any demand, and I would like to quote what it is that he said in commit tee: "The fact of the matter is we have an Emer gency Home Repair Program .

If somebody is in need and they qualify, they get the money, they get it fixed, end of story." This morning, I find out that in the previous fiscal year we found that through this very same program they had to halt it because three-q uarters of the way through the year, they ran out of money. Is the Minister of Housing in fact doing what he said on Monday evening, or is it in fact the cutback as I was suggesting to the Minister of Housing on Monday night? Hon. Jim Ernst (Mi nis ter of Ho usi ng) : Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that there are emergency situations where people are in dire straits, meet the qualifications of the program, have circumst ances where they are going to be endangered if repairs are not completed. That is what an Emergency Home Repair Program is for. Mr. Lamoure ux: Mr. Speaker, can the minister then tell me, or tell the House, why it is, or how it is po ssible then for them to stop proce ssing applicants because they have run out of money. How can you say that the money is there, when in fact three-quarters of the way through the year it disappears? The mon ey has been spent.

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, if the memb er has a circu mstance wher e someone was denied service because of that, let him bring it forward and I will investigate. Mr. Lamoureux : Well, Mr. Speaker, then we will make it very clear for all residents of Manitoba. Is the minister prepared then again inside the Chamber to make a commit ment that anyone who qualifies under this particu lar progr am, this department will in fact meet that demand under this particular program and the criteria that has been established, that the Minister of- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question . Mr.

Ernst: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, if he has evidence that someone was denied service, let him bring the names forward and I will investigate. I am no t aware of anyb ody wh o was denied service. The Pas Health Complex Kidney Dialysis Services Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I want to read a government news release that was issued on July 6. This is talking abou t the dialysis program . The treatm en t

schedule may be expanded-and this is in Portage-and will also provide employment for five part-time registered nurses, and additional funds may be available. Residents of Portage no longer have to travel to Winnipeg for this crucial health service . Mr. Speaker, I also want to table a letter from the Anglican Deanery Council of The Pas that was written to the Minister of Health. In this letter, they are saying that one of their retired clergy people, Reverend Canon Gordon McGillivary, has had to be driven to Flin Flon every two days for dialysis.

This is a stress ful trip for one and a half hours each way and with the stress of treatment in between. There is a well- equipped dialysis unit in The Pas Health Complex and trained staff to operate it. The machines are not booked up for the whole time, and apparently there is a limitation on the staff hour s currently allowed by the province for this unit. Mr. Speaker, I want to table that letter. My ques tion is to the Minister of Heal th.

Because of what I have just said and because of the reform program of the government, recently 20 nurses have been laid off in The Pas, and The Pas Health Complex is only allo wed to do a limited

5253 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 number of dialysis treatments each week in spite of the actual caseload. My question to the minister is, given what I have just said, why is the minister forcing people to drive to Flin Flon to get treatment and yet giving Portage Ia Prairie better dialysis service? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speake r, I did not think anybody in the New Dem ocratic Party would ask a ques tion about the expansion of dialysis that was-1 was ably assisted in the ribbon-cutting by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) on Tuesday of this week.

It was a very good announcement for the people of Portage Ia Prairie. Mr. Speaker, it is part of the conti nuing expansion of the dialysis program that we have undertaken since we have come into gove rnment. That has included a number of new facilities like Portage Ia Prairie in rural Manitoba. The budget has nearly doubled sinc e we have com e into gove rnment, a very significant increase, and it has provided those services closer to home for many, many Manitobans.

Now I hope from the tenor of my honourable friend's que stion that he is not saying the people of Portage Ia Prairie did not deserve to have dialysis in Portage Ia Prairie, as The Pas has and as Ain Flon has. I hope he is not saying that, Sir. Mr. Lathll n: Mr. Speaker, I want to go on record as saying that the Nor th deser ves the same treatment as the south is getting. That is all I ask. Mr. Speaker, my second question is, how can this minister consider it to be cost-effi cient to be shipping people two hours away to get treatment, instead of in The Pas where facilities are available? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speake r, I really regret my honourable friend is saying we do not care for northern Manitoba. It was this government that put dialysis service in the city of Thompson, something my honourable friend the memb er for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) could not get by his own cabinet. He could not get that program approved for Thompson when he was in government, but we did it. We did it in terms of providing that service to the citizens of Thompson. Mr.

Speak er, I do not kno w the spec ific circums tances of this individual's dialysis, but from time to time, even though we have expanded the program closer to where people live, the capacity of the program is reached at that given facility and individuals are referred to the next closest facility. That is an inconvenience I will acknowledge to those> individuals for the short period of time that they are asked to go to another facility, but it is significantly better than what it was when we came into g1ov ernment, where some of those individuals had t>o come to Brandon or to Winnipeg to receive their treatm ent.

Now they can receive it in Thompson. They can receive it in Porta ge. They can mceive it in a number of rural commu nities with expanded facilities. Mr. L.athlln: I want to simply ask the Minister of Healtlh one last time why will his gov ernmen t not provide services for those patients in The Pas as well as the surrounding aboriginal community in The Pas area? My question is why will he not provide those servic:es? Mr. C)rc hard : Mr. Speaker, my hono ur able friend's question is based on an inaccu rate

preamble. We are providing those services in The Pas, in Flin Flon, in Thompson. We are provi ding them in northern Manitoba to a greater number of residEmts of northern Manitoba than when we came into government. That is an expansion of dialysis for northern Manitobans, including the aboriginal comm unity my honour able friend is wont to represent, Sir, an expansion of the care, not a reduction of the care. Mr. Speaker, I cannot indicate to my honourable friend the nature of his question when we have expanded the service in northern Manitoba. Mr. ��peake r: Time for Oral Questions has expirEid.

Commi ttee Changes Mr. Speaker: Prior to rec ognizing the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), I will recog nize the honourable member for St. Boniface with commi ttee changes and then the honourable member for Gimli. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Cresce ntwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments be amended as fol lo ws : St. James (Mr. Edwards) for Cresc:entwood (Ms. Gray) . Motl()n agreed to.

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 5254 Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Prior to getting to the honourable member for Gimli, I will do the honourable member for Point Douglas with his committ ee changes. Mr. George Hlc kes (Point Doug las) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the memb er for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) , that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for Radisson (Ms. Cer illi); Swan River (Ms. Wowch uk) for Brandon East (Mr.

Leonard Evans ), for Thursday, July 8, 19 93, at 7 p.m. I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wo wchuk ) , that the com position of the St anding Comm ittee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: Broadway (Mr. Santos) for Wolseley (Ms. Friese n). Motions agreed to. *

(1420) Nonpolitical Statement Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Gimli have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to an event that took place in the com munity of Gimli last weekend. For four days, Gimli was the host of Nor th Amer ican Boards ailing Cham pionships. By all accounts, the town and its residents came through with flying colour s in hosting this event. Mr. Speaker, Gimli is considered to be one of the top sailing locati ons in the world.

Besides we are situated along the largest fresh-water body of water in the world, Gimli is one of the finest loca tions for competitive sailing because of its facilities and the hard work of local sailors and other residents. Gimli residents, in the true com munity spirit, made sure competitors, coaches, fans and media were all taken care of during the most recent championships. Pancake bre akfasts and a banquet were only some of the activities organi zed by the commu nity for this past weekend's events. In short, a world-class sailing event received world-class treatment.

I believe all members of this House would agree that everyone in Gimli should be proud of the job they did to promote this pro vince and their town and to ensure the sailing co mmunity keeps co ming back. Gimli's commitment to being a world-class host is perhaps a major reason why it is awarded the World Boar dsailing Championships for August 19 94, a major achievement in the sailing world. Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this Assembly to join in congratulating the commu nity of Gimli and its residents for successfully hosting the recent North Amer ican Boardsai ling Championships. Thank you.

Commi ttee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the memb er for St. Vital (Mrs. Rende r) , that the composition of the Standing Commit tee on Law Amendments- this is as of July 7 at the 7 p.m. sitting-be amended as follows: The member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) for the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: The memb er for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for the memb er for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister).

I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) , that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: The member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) for the member for Ste . Rose (Mr. Cummings); the member for Riel (Mr. Ducharme) for the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcinto sh) . Motions agreed to. MAlTER OF URG ENT PUBL IC IMPORTANCE Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Johns (Ms.

Wasylycia-L eis), that under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance; namely, the changes made to the structure of the Home Care Program which will have a severe impact on seniors and the disabled. Mr. Speaker, I move that under Rule 27(1) that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of public import ance ; namely, changes to the structure of home care which will impact on services to seniors.

5255 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA July 8, 1993 Mr. Speaker: Before determ ining whether the motion meets requirements of our Rule 27, the honourable memb er for Kildonan will have five minutes to state his case for the urgency of debating this matter today, and a spokesperson for the government and the other opposition party will also have five minutes to address the position of their party respecting the urgency of debating this matter today. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, no single issue is more important or more urgent to discuss than the health and welfare of our seniors and the disabled in our society.

By this decision that has been made by this government, that welfare, that health can be placed into jeo pardy by the actions of this gove rnment. The government's program which cut $3 million from the home maintenance program that cut the laundry services, the home maintenance and the meal preparation, Mr. Speaker, puts people in the community in jeopardy. It puts their independence in the communi ty in jeopardy.

It puts their welfare in jeopardy, and it puts them in jeopardy of being placed in institutions, something that should, accor ding to the government's own reform package, be only utilized as a measure of last resort. But by this decision, we have thousands of people, at least 5,000 people, who possibly will be placed in this position. This decision, as indicated in the letter tabled this morning, has now been taken by the government. These people are now being contacted. As we speak, these people are being contact ed. Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Urgency. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, the member for Morris (Mr. Manness) says "urgency." I will quickly quote from a letter given to me, sent to the minister by an R.N. And I am quoting from a letter to the minister from Barbara Thompson, R.N., who works in the Home Care Progr am: What happens if a cognitively impaired senior eats spoiled or rotten food that is left sitting in the refrigerator or home? Severe food poisoning will result in an acute illness. What of frail elderly with respiratory and cardiac conditions who experience severe shortness of breath upon even minimal exertion? Mr.

Speaker, the health of individuals is an urgent matter. The status of their health, their possi bility of being placed in institutions is of conce1rn. The fact that this program is being cut off as we speak, that they are getting letters and phone calls as we speak from Home Care workers saying that they are going to be cut off, places their health in jeopardy. That is what is urgent and pressing. We are getting hundreds of calls from seniors asking us. The �rov ernmen t has not even outlined what the criteria of the program is.

As we speak, the government is considering signing a contract which will see hundreds of thous;ands of dollar s go to Connie Cur ran to deal with the home care area, and this money could be better used today on these very people who are being cut off their home care service. As we speak, the gove rnment has an opportu nity not to sign this contract on the Connie Cu rran gravy train. As we speak, these people are phoning us.

The' disabled com munity had a meeting, as I under:stand, with departmental of ficials yesterday, and they were unable to provide them with information as to whether or not disabled people will be able to remain as independent individuals in the co mmunity or whether they will have to now go back into institutions, something that affects every single one of those disabled individuals out there in the community. It is a matter of urgency that this matter be resolved.

It is a matter of urgency that we resolve who is being affected, how are they being affected, and more importantly, it is a matter of urgency that the minister understands what the effect this policy will have on these Manitobans, on these 5,000 Manitobans, to allow him to put this on hold. To consult, Mr. Speaker, put this program on hold and not place these people's lives in jeopardy, their indep��ndence in jeopardy, by virtue of this decision to cut off these services to the progr am. We have no other opportunity. The Estimates are over.

We raised it in the Estimates, the minister was e1vasive, did not give us proper or adequate information as usual. We have no other opportunity to discuss this in the context, we have no other opportunity to discU!;s this in the Legislature. We have passed our Estimates. The policy is being decided now. We have had consu ltations from the heads of the two g1:triatric facilities, Health Sciences Centre, St. Boniface centre saying this is a wrong decision.

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5256 We have not had an opportunity to talk to the minister, Mr. Speaker. * (1 430) It is of urgent importance that the minister hears these representa tions, that he hears what the impact will be on these people, that he hears from these institutions, that some people may not be rele ased from thes e institutions because the caregivers and the doctors do not know whether those comm unity supports will be available in the commu nity.

There are people right now in hospitals who may not be able to be released into the communi ty because they do not know whether those home support services are available. That is happening tod ay, Mr. Speaker. That is why this matter is of urgency, and that is why based on that, we are asking that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to deal with this urgent and pressing matter. Mr. Kevi n Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I stand today representing the caucus, indicating that we do su pport the emergency debate that is being put forward from the New Dem ocratic Party.

We do believe that, in fact, it is an urgent matter that has merit to be debated tod ay, that the public interest would be served best by this House designating the rest of the day as an opportunity, in particular for the Minister of Hea lth and oth er memb ers of cabinet, to help clarify the whole matter. To the Deputy Premier (Mr. Do wney), we have to realize, whether the government wants to admit it or not, there are a significant number of individuals, whether they are seni ors, whe ther they are disabled, who are out there who are confused, who are not too sure what this government is doing.

I, myself, have had one phone call from someone in my constituency expressing concerns about Home Care services that were being delivered. So I think it is very important. If we take it in the broa der picture, Mr. Speaker, in terms of health care reform, this is what is in the public interest. This government is on record as trying to implement health care reform that would be to the bettermen t of all Manitob ans. The gove rnment has said itself that what you want to do is have more delivery in the communities. From what has been said and put on the record and the nonanswers the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) has been putting forward , I believe that it is in contradiction with what the government's stated policy of health care reform is. That is the reason why it is, in fact, in the interest of the public that we debate this particular issue. We have on the one hand the gov ernment talking about health care reform, talking about putting it into the communi ties, talking about having seniors and people with disabilities living in their homes. On the ot her hand, Mr. Speaker, we do not see the government acting on those points. This is the reason why it is in the public's best interest.

It is, in fact, urgent in the sense that you have individuals today who are out there who are not sure what this gove rnment is doing. If you tune in to Question Period, whether it is opposition members or government, they are completely at odds in terms of what is being said, and I think an emer gency debate would allow for the Minister of Health and other cabinet memb er s, along with opposition memb ers , to put their argum en ts forward and then let the public judge it at that time. So I strongly urge that it is allowed to be debated today based on those arguments. Thank you very much. Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, both opposition spok esmen on this request for an emer gency debate were required to establish urgenc y and the fact there was no other opportunity to debate this issue. They have failed in both instances. The urgency has not been established by either member, and the opportunity to debate is frequent, Sir, not the least of which is Question Period, not the least of which is unlimited de bate on the concurrence motion, which will happen as soon as probably Tuesday next week.

There is unlimited de bate time on a number of financial bills at which all of these issues can be brought forward. My honourable friends have not established either case. The urgency issue, Sir, I submit is not accu rate becaus e the impleme ntation of the domestic service review is effective Septe mber 3, some two months from now, not immediate, as my honourable friends would seem to believe.

They are receiving phone calls from concerned seniors who have bel ie ved some of the presentation of the issue, pos sibly from opposition memb ers, possibly from the media, with the impression that the Home Care Progr am, in other

5257 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 words, the nursing and personal care ser vice program is being cut. That is not right, Sir. Mr. Sp eaker, the reason it is no t right is explained-and I refer my honourable friend the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), because he asked me in Estimates on June 21- to his ques tion on page 4499 and the comprehensive answer that I gave to him, which he asked again today , with the figures starting on the last column of page 4499 and carrying on to page 4500. Mr. Speaker, this issue is not a new issue. There is no urgency. This was explained in the budget of April 6. Ther e was a Free Press

article by Alex Paul on April 7 explaining this change. A number of questions were posed in the House by both opposition parties to which a full explanation was given in Question Period. We spent more than two days debating this issue in the Estimates of the Department of Health. I offered to my honourable friends the New Dem ocrats and the Liberals that we could carry on debating the Estimates of the Ministry of Health on Home Care, on the APM contract with Connie Curran, on the personal care home changes, on any of the issues they so desired for any amount of time they wanted to carry on with.

Instead, my honour able friends the Liber als and the New Dem ocr ats cur tailed deba te at 4:50 Mon day afternoon last, 1 0 minutes before five o'clock, without a single question on the APM contract, without a single question on Continuing Care, without a single question on the personal care home per diem increase. Mr. Speaker, they had every single opportunity to ask all of these questions again and receive the same answers as were part of the Estimates on pages 4499 to 4500, but my honourable friends do not want the answers.

My honourable friends want to persist in spreading a fear cam paign among seniors just as the New Dem ocrats and the Liberals did four years ago on the same issue following the same policy that New Democrats put in place in 19 85. Mr. Speaker, the policy is this and this simply, that where there are alte rnate ser vi ces of housecleaning and laundry provision, the senior who has the ability to manage those services on their own will purchase them from other than the Home Care Program. That is a policy of the New Dem ocrat s under Ho ward Pawley in 19 85, continued under this gove rnment including this budget. Mr.

Speaker, there is no change in policy. There is no cutback of $3 million. There is an increase in the budget with 11 percen t mo re home care assistance being purchased this year over last year, 9.5 percent mor e registered nursing hours being supplied this year over last year, with almo st 4 percent more Victorian Order of Nurses services provided this year over last, all on the medical nursing sides and the personal care needs sides provid ing more services, not less.

There• will, Sir, be a decrease in the domestic services of housecleaning and laundry pro vision, but that is consis te nt with the 19 85 policy of Ho war d Pawley and the NDP, no change, prog res:sive and able to maintain independent living of seniors without fear and without concern in their homes independently, because this gove rnment has doubled the funding on the Home Care Pr,ogram from $34 million in 19 88 to over $68 million today, a doubling of money, Sir, not a cutback; an increase in the amount of service, not a reduct ion; more personal services, mor e-- Mr. Spe aker: Order, please.

The honourable member's time has expired. * (1 440) Speaker's Ruling Mr. Spe�&ker: Order, please. I would like to thank all hom>urable mem bers for the advice as to whether the mo tion proposed by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chom iak) should be debated to day. The notice required under our subrule 27(1 ) was received, and, according to our Rule 27 and Beauchesne Citations 389 and 390 , the two condition s req uired for a matter of urgent importance to proceed are (

a) the subject matter must be so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow it to be brought on early enough; and (

b) it must be shown "that the public interest will suf fer if the matter is not given immediate attention." I would remind members that • 'urgency' ... does not apply to the matter itself, but means 'urgency of debate', when the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and the public

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5258 interes t dem ands that discussion take place immediately." I am ruling that there are other opportu nities to debate this matter. The member for Kildonan has not used his right to raise a grievance; also, we are nearing the end of the consideration of Estimates, so the issue raised by the honour able member could be de bated on the concurrence motion as well as a second and a third reading debate of The Appropriation Act.

Further, I have not been convinced that the matter is so urgent that all the business of the House be set aside today to debate this matter. Therefore , I am ruling against the matter of urgent public importance. Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I challenge the ruling of the Chair. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair having been challenged, all those in favour of sustaining the Chair, please say yea. Some Honour able Members : Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members : Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recor ded vote having been requested, call in the members. The ques tion before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Cummin gs , Dacquay, De rkach , Downe y, Driedger, Ducharme, Ernst, Filmon, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, Manness, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, Orchard, Pallister, Praznik, Reimer, Render, Rose , Stef anson, Sve inson , Vodrey.

Nays Alcock, Ashton, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edwar ds, Evans (Brandon East) , Evans (Interlake), Friese n, Gaudry , Gr ay, Hick es, Lamoureux, Lathlin, Maloway, Martindale, Reid, Santos, Storie, Wasylycia-Leis, Wowchuk. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant) : Yeas 25, Nays 22. Mr. Speaker: The motion is accor dingly carried. House Business Hon. Cla yton Manness (Government House Leader) : Mr.

Speaker, I would seek unanimous consent to withdraw Bill 34, The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act, from the Standing Commit tee on Economic Development and transfer it to the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader have leave to withdraw Bill 34 from the Economic Development committee and move it to L.A.? [agreed] Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would announce that the Standing Com mittee on Law Amendments will sit Tuesday mo rning next at 9 a.m . to consider Bills 25 and 34, in that order. Mr.

Speaker, I would also ask whether or not there is a willingness of the House to accept the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources to sit tonight at 5 p.m. rather than 7 p.m., as was called, to consider Bills 2, 10 and 17 . Would there be unanimous consent to do that? Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow PUNR to sit at 5 p.m. instead of at 7 p.m.? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Leave is denied. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, then I would indicate that Law Amendments will sit tonight at 7 p.m. to consider Bill32 and 1 p.m. tomorrow, if necessary.

Those are the annou ncem en ts for Ho use business at this time. Mr. Speak er, I would like to ask the House whether or not there is a willingness-and this is unusual I understand-to go into Estimates and once the Department of Energy and Mines has had its Estimates completed in the Chamber, whether or not the

section outside in the comm ittee room can conti nue to hear Esti mates review on the De partmen t of Industry, Trade and Tourism throughout the afternoon. And currently then, the House will attend to consider bills this afternoon. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? Some Honourable Members : No.

5259 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 Mr. Speaker: There is not leave to allo w the Ho use to sit at the same time as we have a comm ittee running? No, leave is denied. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Cla yton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, then I move, seconded by the Ministe r of Justice (Mr. McCra e), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker, before you put the question, is there willingness to waive private members' hour? Mr.

Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Some Honour able Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Yes, there is leave ? Are you suggesting no? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No leave? Okay, there is no leave on that one. Therefore the original ques tion before the House is: It has been mo ved by the honourable go vern men t Ho use leader (Mr. Mannes s), seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCra e), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majes ty with the honourable member for St. Norber t (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Emplo yee Benefits and Other Payments, the Depar tment of Internal Refor m, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, and the Department of Industry , Trade and Tourism ; and the honourable memb er for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Energy and Mines. * (1 530) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) Chairperson's Ruling Mr.

Deputy Cha irperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. When the committee last sat, we had been dealing with the Department of I, T and T. I took under advisement a point of order from the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), and I will bring in the ruling at this time. On ,July 5, 19 93, in the

section of the Commi ttee of Sup ply meeting in Room 255, durin g consider ation of the Estimates of Industry, Trade and T1:>urism, the honourable member for Inkster raised a poin t of order regarding an earlier unanimous decision of the com mittee to introduce a new dopartment after 1 0 p.m. In al lowing the comm ittee to proceed by unanimous consent to waive Rule 65(9)(d), I did cite Rule 64(1 ) which states that the rules of the Hou se' shall be observed insofar as they are applicable to the Commi ttee of the Whole House except for the rules for seconding motions and limitin!� the number of times of speaking.

The matter of waiving the rules of the Ho use by unanimous consent, however, is not applicable in any commi ttee as only the House can waive or vary the ruiEIS it has made. Therefore, my application of Rule 64(1 ) to the matter of waiving House rules by a comm ittee was not conrect. The end result is the comm ittee did proceed contrary to the House rules and that canno t be cha ng�:�d now. What is important is that it is undersltood, as stated in Beauchesne Citation 19 , that the,se events do not constitute a precedent.

I would like to remind the comm ittee members that the' procedure to waive the rules of the House is to have the comm ittee temporarily suspend its proceedings so that the Speaker may resume the Chair and a desir ed unanimou s consen t be requested from the House. I apologize to the commi ttee for my errors. EMPLOYEE BEN EFITS AND OTHER PAYM ENTS Mr. Deputy Cha irperson (Marcel Laurendeau): When the committee last sat, it had concluded with the Estimates of the Civil Service Comm ission and started with the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

However there are two line items that come b1:�fore the Department of I, T and T which are Employee Benefits and Other Payme nts on page 44 and Internal Reform on page 147. The honourable minister, do you have an opening statement?

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5260 Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): No. Mr. Kevin La moureux (Ink ster) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do have a considerable amoun t of concerns in terms of what has been going on with the Employee Bene fits with respect to the work reduction leg islation that has been introduced from this government. We are concerned and would ask, maybe instead of giving an opening remark, that we just go right into some specific questions regarding Em ployee Benefits. Mr. Praznlk: Mr.

Deputy Chair, I am just getting my staff to bring up my briefing material, my briefing notes. I should say to Mr. Deputy Chair that he should not have to apologize too hard to the committee. It was a unanimous support at the time of the meeting. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister give us an indication in terms of the effect of Bill22 on the workfo rce, the civil service? Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, I certainly can. I think what it has done is it has allowed some 500-plu s individuals who are em ployed by the Pr ovince of Manitoba to be worki ng tod ay;

whereas if we had not brought in Bill 22, they were likely to have been laid off. We are not talking about positions. We are talking about individuals would have been laid off and not working, although they probably would have been on severance packages at the current time. But we would have take n 500 people who have served the Province of Manitoba and put them into the ranks of the unemployed. So the effect Bill 22 is having on the civil service of the Province of Man itoba is to keep those 500-plu s ex tra individuals working today, pro viding service to Manitobans;

whereas other wise, and as the way the New Dem ocra tic Party and opposition members would have had us proceed, they would have been laid off. Mr. Deputy Chair per son: At this time the commi ttee will recess for two minutes. * * * The committee recessed at 3: 39 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 3:41 p.m. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: Comm ittee will come to order. 1. Employee Benefits and Other Payments (

a) Civil Se rvice Superannuation Plan $29,5 10, 000- pass. (

b) Canada Pension Plan $1 1 ,81 8,000-pass. (

c) Civil Ser vice Gr oup Life Insur ance $1 ,889,800-pass. (

d) Workers' Com pe nsation Boar d (1 ) Asse ssment s re: Accidents to Go ve rnment Em ployees $3 ,341 ,000 -pass ;

(2) Le ss : Re cove rable from Other Approp riations ($3, 1 1 9,000)-pass. (

e) Unem ployment Insurance Plan $21 ,823, 10 0 -p ass. (

f) Dental Plan $4,852,800-pass. (

g) Long Term Disability Plan $1 ,589,1 00-pass. (

h) Ambulance and Hospital Semi- Private Plan $330, 900-pass. (

j) Levy for Health and Post-Secondary Education $1 3,999,200 -pass. Resolution 6.1 : RE SOL VED that ther e be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedin g $86,034,900 for Em ployees Bene fits and Other Payme nts for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. INTERNAL REFORM, WORKFORCE ADJUSTMENT AND GENERAL SALARY INCR EASES Mr. Deputy Cha irperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Now we will revert to Internal Reform on page 147. 1. Internal Reform , Workforce Adjustment and Gener al Salary Increases (

a) Internal Reform and Work force Adjustment $1 0 ,000,000 -pass; (

b) Gener al Salary Incr eases $1 0,000 ,000-pass. Resolution 25.1 : RE SOLVED that there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $20 ,000,000 for Internal Refo rm , Work fo rce Adjustment and General Salary Increases for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. INDUSTRY, TRADE AND TOURISM Mr. Deputy Cha irperson (Marcel Laurendeau): At this time we will move to the Department of Industry, Trade and Tour ism. We will call up the minister.

5261 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 Mr. Reg Alc ock (Osbor ne): Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, I would be interested, stepping back from the details of wha t is happening in the department right now. This is the lead department on industrial development, the lead department on economic development, and can the minister tell us in a specific sense, what is achieved? What are the results? What is the output of a year's work in this department? What has happened in Manitoba that has made it stronger?

All I see reference to in the minister's opening statements are things that have been done by other departments in eliminating public service positions and holding down taxes. What has happened in this department? What new industries are here? What new jobs have been created? How many people are working here that were not working here a year ago as a direct result of the actions of this minister and this department? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, firstly, I think it is important to keep in context my opening remarks, that while we have a responsibility in terms of job creation and the economy and have particular programs to deal with that, clearly we are one go vernment. We are no t individual department s , and wh at we do collec tively is important for the economy of Manitoba. What Rural Deve lopmen t does is important for the economy of Manitoba as Agriculture, as Finance and so on.

So I think it is important to keep in mind the things we are doing in the whole area of finances and fiscal elem ents and other programs in other departments and so on. When we get to my department, there are a series of particular initiatives. There are particular financial programs that have led to direct job creation as the manufacturing industrial opportunity program that approved-! believe I referred to them in my opening remarks-for financial assistance grants, or repayable loans actually, during 19 92-93 that resulted in several hundred jobs.

There were two programs approved under the Manitoba Industrial Recruitment Initiatives that again resulted in hundreds of jobs. Various other programs, the Manufacturing Adaptation Progr am, which is a loan program of a smaller scale, up to $1 00,000 repayable loan program, that again deals with existing businesses in many cases and results in either a combi nation of job maintenance and/or job addition. I think it is important to recognize as well that job maintenance in many cases in today's economy is just a:s important as job enhancement or attraction.

I would encour age the honourable member, without me r"peating all of them, to read some of my comm ents relative to what has been happening not only in Canada but in the Un ited States, and not only in North America but in other parts of the world , the kind of job losses that the European commu nity is going through, the kind of job losses that are happening in the United States and the kind of restruc turing that is taking place universally. I think mo st who are looking at the global economic picture are recognizing that com panies are in fact going through a major restructu ring.

There is a shift in the traditional economic base. The rEI is a sh ift to mo re knowledge-ba sed industries and so on. So many of the programs that W•9 have have also been very significant in job rete ntion, and many of the things we do on a day-t o1-day basis deal with that as we ll. I have many discussions with financial institutions dealing with e>eisting businesses to make sure that they are su pportive getting them through some difficult period:s.

We have a tourism program that provides both a combi nation of financial support for marketing programs that can deal with additional economic activit)f and a product development aspect that deals vvith the improve ment of facilities which again enha nces their economic activity. We have a commu nications agreement that will be dealing in 19 93- !�4 with some initiatives that I know the me mber for Osborne (Mr. Alc ock) has some interest in that will deal with the combina tion of job creation and research and development that will lead to further job creation in this provi nce. So, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I could go on and on going through each of the detailed lines that point to various expenditures of money that have led to direct job maintenance and creation and/or- 1 have not even begun to touch on the whole policy side o1' trade and the kinds of role that we are playing in trade. I think the member for Osborne knows the leadership role we are playing on the whole issue of interprovincial trade barriers, the breaking down of inte rnal trade barr ier s in Manitoba. I am fortunate to co-chair that with the federal government.

It is a high priority for us and we feel it should be a high priority for all Canadians becaus e it costs taxpayers money, it costs

July 8, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5262 governm ents mon ey and it does affect the competitiveness of Canadian businesses. We have had many discussions in the House on NAFT A and he knows full well the position we have taken on NAFT A and the concerns we have as it relates to the three outstanding conditions that still exist. We also deal with GATT and continue to support our federal government with the position we are taking on market-access enhancement, particularly in the agricultural community with the Eur opean com munity at this particular point in time. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I could go on and on, but I think at this point I will stop and see if the honourable member has another question. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, I find the whole discussion a fascinating one. There is an article, actually I think it is in this month's, might have been last month's, Atlantic that is headed "It's not the econom y, stupid." The point that the

article makes is that one government cannot control the economy and cann ot dictate on a macro level major changes in economic direction, particularly from a small base like we have here in Manitoba. Ther e are some inter es ting things that I observed, and I just would like to try to understand a little better maybe from the perspective of this minister who stated, in the response he ju st completed, that his division and he do have a responsibility for job creation in this provi nce.

When you look at what has happened in-let us take the last five years as a period, although we could go back 1 0 if you wanted, but take the last five years and look at the distribution of wealth in this country as measured by the gross domestic product. When we look at that, and it is true that the country has been through a recess ion, the world has been through a recession, different parts of the country have suffered, we see that relative to Canada as a whole, Newfoundland has actually gained economic strength.

Sur prisingly, given what has happened in the fishing industry and everything else, Newfoundland has actually done well. New Brunswick has done well; Nova Scotia has done well; P.E.I. has gained; but Manitoba has lost. It is odd. * (1 550) I am talking about relative position within the country now. The entire country has gone into a rece ssion. Manitoba has gone through a reces sion, but why is it that these four small rela tively weak provi nces have managed to weather this storm and come out strengthened?

Manitoba, which has this manufacturing base, which has the strength the minister keeps refere ncing, has in fact, during the five years that they have been in charge of job creation in this pro vi nce , performed wor se than seven other provinces. I do not say that to even hang that at the minister's doorstep. I wo uld like to understand what is driving that, what the problem is that the minister is fac ing as he attempts to fulfill his responsibility for job creation? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, firstly, I think many people today are questioning the value of the GOP as a measurem ent of econom ic growth because, I think as we all know, it can be for a short period of time artificially inflated or adjusted upwards through government spending, as an example. Certainly many articles I have read of late are questioning the whole issue of economic indicators, and as the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) knows, GOP is one of about 13 or 14 econom ic indicators. Without accepting the

preamble or the commen ts of the member, without having the details in front of me, and again the opp ortunity to revie w the year-by-year adjustments to the GOP, I cannot comment specifically on the changes from year to year, but I will talk in principle about that issue and about what I see as the positive econom ic signs in our provi nce.

I have already outlined my concerns about that as an economic indicator because of things like gov ernmen t spending, and that is why if you compare Manitoba today and you see wher e our areas of strength are, I believe they are in the areas of strength that will create real wealth. If you look at the projections for capital investment as an example in our pro vince, capital investment growth in the private sector, I bel.ieve our ranking is somewhere around third in the country in terms of what is expec ted in private sector capital investment.

If you look at capital investment in the manufacturing sector over all, we are expec ted to have the second highe st perfo rmance in all of Canada, some 30.8 percent increase in 19 93 over 19 92 levels. If you look at other signs in our economy that show consumer confidence, if you look at the swing

5263 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 in retail sales performance over the last six or seven months in Manitoba, again, our performance in that area is running at, I believe, the second best in all of Canada since September of 19 92. If you look at issues like our unemployment in terms of how we are starting to fare today, if you look at employment, firstly, in terms of full-time jobs, I believe in the first few months of this year we had some 10 ,000 mor e full-time jobs in Manitoba than we did a year ago, and that is the best record in all of Canada, 2.5 percent increase.

Canada, in terms of growth rate and full-time jobs is one-half of 1 per cen t. We were five times the national average. If you look at our unem ployment rate, which we have discussed before in the Chamber, we consistently stay at second or third lowest in all of Canada. So from my perspective to sit here and focus only on the GDP is not doing justice to the overall economy of Manitoba and how we compare with in Canada, because I feel that there are ot her economic indicators that carry as much, in fact in my opinion, more weight.

If you start to do the analysis of how Manitoba is faring today in those economic indicators , in those areas, we are faring very well relative to the rest of Canada. I am not suggesting for a momen t that there are areas where we still would not want to see more improvement and that we do not have areas that req uire more attention, but I keep reminding members of the opposition, I think to do justice to these kinds of issues you have to do it in a relative se nse and you have to compa re us to other pro vinces.

While the memb er for Osborne is focused on GOP, I can come back and focus on unemplo ymen t rates , I can foc us on ful l-time employmen t, I can focus on retail sales, I can focus on capital expenditures, private capital expendi­ tures, capital expenditures in manufacturing. I could focus on last year's manufacturing shipments where we were the second or third best in Canada. Even using GOP, last year I believe we had the third highest growth rate in GOP in all of Canada.

So I think there are, in fact I do not think, I know there are many positive signs in terms of our economy and feel that, yes, we are on the right track with the things we are doing to ultimately maintain jobs and create more jobs and create a stronger economy, and create real wealth for the economy of Manitoba, no t ju st recircula ting taxpayers' dollars amongst our selves and adding to our debt and our taxes in our pro vince. Mr. ��lcock: Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, I do not know,. it may be that it is just not possible to have the kind of discussion that I want to have tod ay.

I mean, I started off by saying that I do not hold this minister responsible for this. I hoped that we could get unhooked from this, you know, you did this or you diid not do this, that kind of-it strikes me that we we1ste an enormous amount of time here having that kind of who did what to whom conversat ion. I make a series of observations looking at what are reputerd to be reputable sources of information on econo mic performance and the minister responds to me. Perhaps that is the only thing he is loaded to respond wi th right no w .

Maybe by having somebody else get here, we will get a little more detaiiEid discussion. It is easy to pull things out of the existing mix of information that is sugg ested in this area or that area that we are doing better. I do note the growth in full-time jobs, by the way. The minister is quite right, there have been some encouraging signs in that area, although, again, if you look at our mix of full-time to part-time jobs within our current labour force, we have been sliding for the last five ye ars. These are not figures that are manufactured by anybody.

I mean, they come straight out of the very mports the government puts out month after month. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) The A.ctlng Deputy Chai rperson (Mr. Reimer): Mr. Minister. Mr. Allcock: No, I am not finished . You were talking to the minister, I did not want to interfere with hils opportunity to have a conservation with the speakEif. The Acting Deputy Chairp erson (Mr. Reimer): Mr. Alc:ock, to continue his line of questioning. Mr. Alco ck: Thank you, Mr. Acting De puty Chairperson. I am not attempting to attack the ministE�r or the government.

I just would like to unders>tand it better. I go through it and it looks frightening to me. It is frightening to me that this pro vince, despit e ef forts by the previous gove rnment and by this gove rnment, continues to lose pcrsition in Canada. You can argue the fine points of whether GDP represents any thing, it does represent the

July 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5264 acc umulation or distribution of wealth in the country between provi nces. When you look at distribution of labour force , you see the same thing. I should say, you know, there are further strengths in this case. I am not attacking just this minister or this pro vinc e ; the same thing is repl ica ted in Saskatchewan and Alberta. It is the three prairie provinces that have suffered in this last 1 0 years. I would like to understand why.

This is the minister re sponsible for econ omic deve lopment in this province ; I would hope that you would be able to help me understand that. Mr. Stefanson: I do not have a problem having this kind of a discussion. I am not sitting here blaming any body els e for any situation in our economy today, as it relates to our di scussion about economic indicators and performance and so on. My point was, quite simply, that I think you have to look at all the economic indicators. We have had that discussion.

In terms of what we are doing as a government, I will go back, and I think this would be an interesting discussion to have with the member for Osborne, to see whether or not he agrees or disagrees with what we have set as the economic priorities. We did recently release a framework for economic growth by the Premier of our pro vince, worked on in conju nction with the Economic De velopment Board , which I happen to serve on as well along with other colleagues.

From a reporting point of view, it falls under the jurisdiction or mandate of Industry, Trade and Tourism . * (1 600) But I am sure that the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) has had a chance to go through that document, and it builds on a 1 0-point framework. This is wh ere we will probably have some disagreements with some of the opposition parties, is what those priorities should be. Obviously, we put a great deal of em phasis on the economic clim ate in terms of long-term job creation.

I probably should preface this by saying to the member for Osborne that I would hope we could agree that to create real wealth in our pro vince and to create lon g-term job s is not something that any government can do overnight. He is right that the provinces are probably limited to how much they can even do, that you as a country have to, hopefully, be on a similar track in many respects to, again, create real wealth and long-term jobs. I referred to them in my opening comm ents. I will not go back to all 1 0 points, but I think some of them are fundamental.

There is not a day goes by in here that I do not have some discussions with Manitobans and many of them are mem bers of the business community. The me ssage I hear consis tently from them is the whole issue of competitiveness. They are not only competing with Saskatchewan or Ontario, they are competing with the United States, and they are competing now with Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and all parts of the world.

They feel we as a government have a role to play in that whole issue of com petitiveness in terms of what we do in taxation, what we do in other issues that we have an effect over, whether it is workers compensa tion rates or other costs of doing business. The mes sage consistently to us is that many of them belie ve that ye ars ago the re lative competitiveness of Manitoba was not that great. The feedback I get from them today is many of them would still like to see it even better than it is, but they ackno wledge that it has improved significantly .

Our positioning within Canada and within the rest of the world, in terms of our tax cos ts, in terms of many of the other costs from doing business, is much more competitive. We are seeing independent signs of that. We see companies no t being co mmissioned by us-you see a report by a company like the Boyd Company out of the United States independently survey some 45 cities in the United States and Canada and finds that Winnipeg was the third lowest, and the lowest within Canada in terms of competitiveness. We see decisions like companies like Monsan to and others that point to the issue of com petitive­ ness.

I will not belabour that point, but obviously that is something that we fundamentally believe in. Another area is unquestionably the whole area of skills training and lifelong learning. Again, I will use the Monsanto decision. They did not only talk about competiti veness, they talked about the quality of the workfor ce, and the quality of the workforce in Manitoba. I think we have a good rep utation for the workforce in Manitoba, but we definitely have a lot

5265 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 of work to continue to do in that area in terms of skills training, issues of continual upgrading and continual enh ancin g of our human re sou rce capabi lities. I think that is something that gov ernment has a role to play, but so do businesses, so do individual Manitobans. I think Canadian busin esses and Manitoba businesses have to continue to direct resources to that very important initiative.

I think that is an area that has always been important in our economy but it is, in the years ahead, going to be an even more important aspect of the economies of Canada and of Manitoba. I notice the memb er for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) is reacting, so rather than me ramble, I will wait to see if he wants to come with a more specific question. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, you know, it is just interesting to me. We co vered a lot of territory, maybe we can squeeze it down a little bit so we can be more specific on a couple of points. The minister references the plan that was tabled not too long ago.

I looked forward to that with some eagerness, frankly. I mean I thought that mayb e what we would finally see is a plan, and I was frankly qu ite disappointed in it, not that any particular component of it was wrong or that it stated something that I disagreed with. It is just that you are five yea rs, six budgets into this, and what I saw was sort of a com petent overview of current thinking in eco nomic development attached to, I do not know, a platitude gener ator that just sort of ground out a bunch of nice phrases about this.

I did not see anything that said, and as a result we will commit to this; we will do that; we have this target; we are headed in this direction. Particularly what the minister caught me reac ting to is this tremendous confusion I have as I look at the statement that the minister just made about the importance of the quality of the workforce . You know, that is no t somet hing that has been discovered in Manitoba.

I am pleased to see that we focus on that because I mean what I read is that gove rnments simply ought not to be intervening in the economy in the way that they have in the past, that there are not go od examples of throwing lots of dollars at projects . That is a very effec tive way of producing economic growth , but that one way in which they can is to conce ntrate on this issue of lifelong learning skills training and what the minister has called the quality of the workforce . I tried to recon cile that statement with the comm ittee I sat in this morning when we are kicking 1, 200 kids out of school.

I mean, when I read the stuff on quality of workforce , and when I look at the information that is co ming, certai nly out of the States, England and here, o ne of the fundamentals is getting kids basic training skills and literacy. Yes, helping companies upgrade the skills of their em ployees is importanttoo, but basic literacy, basic numer acy is fundamentally important. So <>n the one hand we have this department sitting here saying, you know, this is a really important thing, and on the other hand we have anothEtr department saying, but we are going to deny this opportunity to a whole bunch of people.

We arEt going to reduce the support we are putting into edu cation, and we are going to reduce the support we are putting into universities. So there is real di!>sidence in the syste m, if you like. I just do no t unde rs tand wh at the real policy of the gov ernment is, I guess. Mr. St•,fanson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I guess I would obviously disagree and make the point that when it comes to the quality of education in Manitoba, firstly, it does not necessarily require more money from government today .

The amount of money that we al locate to education, and I am not her,e to talk about the Education Estimates, but initiativ•es that we have seen in the whole field of education are all working and leading towards enhancing the educ ation com mu nity in our pro vince. We o;ue in the midst right now of a review of the Roblin commission reviewing our universities. I think sc:>me of the kinds of initiatives that we are seeing at our co mmun ity colleges in terms of makin�J them more linked to the needs of our busine!>s co mmunities is definitely a step in the right direc tion .

We have seen that already with some c�ourse adjustme nts that I know in the aer osp ace community w hich is an important community in Manitoba. I think the whole review process that has been going through in that area is important t�it sounds pretty simple to say that we are goi ng to match the academic courses and training that is available with the job opportunities that exi:st in Manitoba and Canada, but clearly that is the path that those institutions are on. We are seeing signs of progress, maybe not as much in

Jul y 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5266 some areas as everybody would like, but clearly from my perspective, they are on the right path and we see signs in various sectors where it is working already. The whole review of education done over the last period of years is all pointing, from my perspective, in the right direction of enhancing the kinds of training and abilities that our young people will ultimately obtain. Obviously, we agree with the objecti ve, and we agree with what we want to see as the end result.

We might not agree on everything we are doing to get there, but clearly I think the kinds of reviews we are seeing being done by education are heading in the right direction. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Alcock: I shall not belabour that because this is not the minister responsible for those decisions, but it jus t stands out there as an enormous contradict ion. Let us come back to this. I mean the minister made much, and then certainly the Premier (Mr. Filmon) made much, of the tabling of this plan. Now we have put it on the table. We said this is what we are going to do.

What does it mean in concrete terms? You know , you talk about virtually every major industry in the province as being important. You run through all the platitudes about education and such. What does it mean in term s of pol icy decisions, the allocation of resources, deregulation, wh atev er? I mean, given the ac tions that a gove rnment can take, what action comes out of that document? To this point, it just seems like a large press release. Mr. Stefanson: I can assur e the memb er for Osborne it was not a large press release.

From my perspective and our government's perspective, it is exactly what it is called. It is a framework for economic growth. It does not have an individual docume ntation of each and every initiative that each and every department will be doing, but it is obviously creating the parameters that we, as a gove rnment, will function within. We talked at length about the whole issue of an en vir onmen t conduci ve to entrepr eneur ship, enterprise formation and growth. Obviously, that affects the kinds of decisions you see us make in the field of taxation.

You see the decisions made, not only holding the line, but selectively reducing some taxes in given areas, whether it is railway fu el, aviation fue l and so on. You see the extension of the research and development tax credit; you see the extension of the manufacturing tax credit- those kinds of initiatives that are all part of creating that kind of an environment. * (16 1 0) One of the other points is a focus on innovation. Last year we created the Economic Innovat ion and Technology Council.

They have been, from my perspective, working very diligently on a whole range of fronts to deal with issues related to research and development and innova tion. They have held a series of foru ms with Manitobans to garner the ir views, whether it is in agri-food, whether it is in rural development, whether it is in quality management, whatever it might be.

They also are in process of developing the parameters around the allocation of the resources that have been attached to them through this department, the funding that they have been provided with to deal wit h research and development and technology development. Those will be parts of this framework that you will see the details unfold over the weeks and months ahead, but I think from my perspective, it is fundamental to have the broad parameters, the things that you be lieve in.

It is fine to talk about it as being a press release, but even these 1 0 points, does the member for Osborne fundamentally believe that those are the parameters, that is the framework a government should be operating within? Then judge us on the individual programs and accomplishme nts within those frameworks. I will gladly speak about the specific things that you see us do as it relates to inno vation, as it relates to the fiscal climate, as it relates to trade and export orientation, as it relates to skills training and so on and so forth, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, but you see this is exactly my probl em. I mean, I said to the minister when I first responded to his comme nts on this plan that there is nothing in it that I would oppose, nothing in it that I would say is a bad thing or a misdirection. It just strikes me that it is pretty thin soup after five years in government to come out with what is essentially a description. It is a collec tion of words and adjectives and high-sounding sort of phraseology.

5267 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 8, 1993 Surely, the real question is-and let us take an area. Let us be specific for a minute. You talked about something that sounded like a specific action and that was research and development. You target that as an area that is important. You talk about some changes in tax crediting, and there have been attempts in different areas to do that. What is the target? Have you set a target? Have you said you want to get a combi nation of public and private sector up to a certain level? Has there been an increase? What is the increase?

What is the quantifiable result, I guess is my ques tion. Let us move away from the high-sounding phrases and just get down to find out, well, what is happening on the street. Do we have mo re activity or less activity, and if so, how much more or how much less and what do we attribute it to? Mr. Stefa nson: Mr . Depu ty Chai rperson , the member for Osborne and I have talked about this before. It is one area that I think Manitoba and Cana da as a nation have lagged behind, is research and developmen t and innovation.

I think we have adopted and are adept at picking up products worked on in other parts of the world but have not done that well in this field as a nation. In this particular area what we have done is, we have established a council approximately a year ago drawn from a broad range of sectors of our comm unity.

They are working with many facilities and institutions in our province, our universities, our different laboratories and so on, with the objective of government in part providing additional funding, but ju st as importantly tying all of that into the private sector and to our research facilities in terms of the allo cation that they make to research and dev elopment. Obviously, the objective is the direct jobs created during that whole research and developm ent process, but more im portantly the jobs that are created from the commer cialization that can flow from the research and development work done.

That is an ob jective. I can not give the memb er an absol ute quantifiable number that we anticipate that as a result of that we will have X number of thousand jobs, but each allocation of resources will ultimately be judged on the jobs that they create and the commerciali zation that flows from it. TR Labs will create some jobs in Manitoba directly, but hopefully more importantly it will create products and service capabilities that will lead to other jobs and that initiative will be judged on its output over a period of time.

So the fun damen tal point here from my perspE•ctive is we feel we have the structure in place .. We feel we have given them now a reasonable allocation of government resources. They have a fund of $1 0 million to start to utilize for rese arch and developm en t and innovation technology, and they are working with the Manitoba com mun ity in that area and heigh te ning the importlance of the issue, the recognition of the issue. Cer tainly, I hope to be here. I gue ss the honou rable member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) might not be here years from now that we can sit and say, with that fund and with these initiatives, here is the output. I am pleased with the structure, and I am pleased with the kinds of resources that we now are starting to attach in that area and the priorit :f that we are starting to give it as a government. Mr. Alc:ock: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, let us just continue with research and development for a minute , because the minister is right. He has covered the ground in terms of the importance of it.

I do not expect him to give us sort of set limits in terms of specific jobs, because I do not think that is the kindl of measure you look for from this particular kind of initiative, so I am quite prepared to not hold him accountable for that. I am interested though when you set out to do somet hing, your council has identified that this is an important area and you have set out with the goal of causing! more, creating, adding to, having a net increasl9 in the amount, the quantity of research and development. That is a very broad definition.

So prefiUmably to do that you must have some sense c•f how much activity is taking place today and some means of quantifying that. Stats Canada has certain kinds of measures that it uses for that. You must have some sense of what your work to date ha!3 produced. The question is, do you have some target as to where y·ou would like to see us going, what level you think we would be comfort able at? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, at the early part of our discussion in this area, I prefaced by saying I felt Canada was not spending a great deal and that Manitoba relative to Canada, this is one area that we have been at the lower end of the

July 8, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5268 spectrum. There are the economic indicators, the gross expenditure on research and development and various economic bases that we have to start from . As an example, Manitoba has ave raged, in terms of pro vincial government expenditures on R & D, somewhere between $7 million and $9 million annually. * (1 620) I think more important is not only an increase in our allocation of funds but how our funds can be levered to create other funds.

So we have now set aside a $1 0 million fund for EITC, and some might criticize them for not having all of the parameters in place, but our direction has been consis tently to them, when they come forward with the plan, be sure it is right, be sure it has the support of the bus iness co mmuni ty an d of the acade mic commu nity and so on. So that is something that will unfold during the course of this year and, hope fully, will be something that is supported by the honourable members. We have a base to start from that is low within Canada. We are allocating more resources, and we are working in areas.

We finally have seen the tendering close on the construction of the virology lab in Winnipeg­ obviously benefits from the construction, but more importantly the kind of research work that will flow into our province through that facility. I want to assure the member we have been in continual discussion with the pharmaceutical industry in terms of what we consider the very low percentage of the R & D dollars spent by the pharmaceutical indus try, the Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Association of Canada, in Manitoba. It is just over 1 percent.

We had a pharmaceutical fair here in Winnipeg last year, and it was interesting that the people from our research community, they said, we do not want it done on population. We are not saying spend 4 percent in Manitoba. We are saying just give Manitobans a chance because we do have a good nucleus of research in many areas. We conti nually work with the pharmaceutical industry. I have had multinational pharmaceutical companies, several of them in my office over the last period of months, and I am very optimistic that we will start to see more dollars spent by them in our provi nce. I believe that will happen.

They are rev iewing -! do no t know if it has been finalized-al loca ting a cer tain por tion to the National Research Council. That portion would be-M edical Research Council-di stributed on the basis of a peer review. Traditionally, that peer review from the Medical Re search Council , Manitoba has performed well because we do have a good research community. So we have a base to start from that is low. We are allo cating more resources directly as a government. We are working in various sectors.

When I refer to virology, it is because in part of the emphasis, health care, health industry is one of our targeted area s as a go ver nme nt. The pharmaceutical industry is part of the health care, another targeted area. Aerospace co mmunity-we continue to work within the aerospace commu nity with Bristol and Standard in terms of the kinds of things they can do. We are working with the aerospace commu nity and the Canada Space Agency in terms of projects that can be done right here in Manitoba.

We are working on the Earth Environment Space Initiative co-operatively with the other three western provinces with the nucleus of that being here in Manitoba. So there are a range of fronts that, from my perspective, add to the base of R & D being done in our pro vince, and in the long run that can only be healthy for our economy. Mr. Alcock: Yes, and I think the minister understates their involvement with the $7 million and $9 million.

Cer tainly at the Uni versity of Manitoba there is-off the top of my head-so me $50 million or $60 million being spent on R & D and some of it is coming out of the Manitoba Telephone Sy ste m, Manitoba Hydro and other arms of government that are supporting that. Mr. Stefanson: Just for clar ification, that was direct provincial gover nment expenditures, if you took all of our department. Mr. Alco ck: It is interesting tho ugh . Gross measures are often simply that, and I shall not spend a lot of time quoting the various statistics among the industrialized countries, but the mini