VOL. 2 PRELiiHN.A.RY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 26,1977. NO. 93

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3245 EC-- 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I knew I would end up Leader of the Opposition some day. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. NEARY: Now I am calling for volunteers. Now is your chance on the other side: Now come on over! Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the Minister of Highways. Now in view of the fact that the hon.

Otto Lang has made his announcement in connection with financial assistance to the Atlantic Provinces to upgrade the Trans-Canada Highway and so on, would the minister now tell the House when work will actually get underway on our own Trans-Canada Highway, how much we are entitled to, give us a few more details about the agreement, and indicate to the House where the work is going to be done in the current year? MR. SPE~_KER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: t.J'ell, Mr.

Speaker, the announcement yesterday by the federal minister is one we have been await~ng for quite some time, and when I say 'we' I mean the ministers in the Atlantic region and the provinces of the Atlantic region.

The indication we received from the federal minister and from the federal government is along the lines that $100 million has been approved to be spent within a three year period on upgrading the Trans-Canada Highway in the region, and that will be divided along the lines of our submission made in March, 1976 and along the discussions and negotiations we have had to date - thirty per cent to the province of Nova Scotia, thirty per cent to the province of New Brunswick and thirty per cent to the province of Newfoundland ""-"9(88 --

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3245 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: and Labrador - MR. NEARY: How much in dollars and cents - MR. MORGAN: - and ten per cent to P.E.I. which we- MR. NEARY: How much in dollars and cents will that be? MR. MORGAN: Well, we are looking at $100 million - about $30 million from the federal government; but now, of course, Mr. Lang in his statement yesterday and in his correspondence to us has requested that we commence negotiations immediately to reach agreements between the provinces. What it now means is that we will be sitting down with the federal minister.

This morning I was in contact with my counterparts and we have now arranged a meeting for next Wednesday morning in Halifax - the ministers responsible for Transportation and for Highways, the different ministers in the region - and we will then be finalizing our position as a region -' 9C89

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3246 Page 1 - ms Mr. Morgan. and going to Ottawa with one position. That is the plan now. And our position so far has not changed from our initial position and our initial submission and brief. It was along the lines of a ninety per cent, ten per cent cost-sharing agreement. This is what - we are adamant - we want, and we are still adamant. We were then and we are now. And we feel this should be the agreement. We have received no indication from Mr. Lang as to what his position is. Of course, this is now a subject for intense negotiations and discussions.

And after the meeting in Halifax of the ministers _ of the region, I am hoping then that if at all possible we can arrange a meeting next week with Mr. Lang as well to commence these negotiations. But looking at it from an overall point of view, it means that Newfoundland will be looking at it around a figure of $35 million to $40 million over a three year period. So it is important now in my view to have negotiations conclude an agreement, an agreement reached some time in June, so we aan arrange to get the tenders called for these projects on our Trans-Canada Highway.

There was some confusion this morning,I think, from at least some of the media in the region along the lines that this would mean road work in the Province. I would like to clarify that point. This money is strictly for the Trans-Canada Highway and not for any secondary roads. I mentioned earlier in the House of Assembly that once the agreements a~e reached that we will be zeroing in and laying emphasis on the worse sections of the Trans-Canada Highway And two of these worse sections I am referring to with regards to MR. NEARY: Crabbes River. MR.

HORGAN: - immediate work required is in the Western part of the Province, over in the Crabbes River, George's Lake area, and another one on the Eastern part of the Province, West of the National Park boundary or the Western boundary of the National Park towards Gander, in fact, on to Glenwood. And then, of course, looking at the Eastern

section here as well, th~r~ is a definite need to upgrade or widen the Kenmount Road towards the _,. 9CSO

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3246 Page 2 - ms Mr. Morgan. Argentia access. So we are hoping that we can get these tenders called and possibly get two or three tenders called at one time, sometime in June •. \/ MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. I understand or do I understand correctly from the minister's answer that the minister is not in a position at this moment to state whether or not it will be a ninety/ten deal, a seventy-five/twenty-five deal or a fifty/fifty deal? Or if in actual fact the $35 million will be an outright grant to the Province?

Now let us assume that it is not a ninety/ten deal, that it is a seventy-five/twenty-five or fifty/fifty, will the Province then be able to participate and enter into an agreement with the Government of Canada on a fifty/fifty basis if that is the way the Government of Canada wants it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as much as I would like to answer the questions of that nature, I, because of the nature of the upcoming negotiations,which I am sure my hon. friend will agree are very important discussions and negotiations, I would not like to disclose any position that this Province would take or possibly would take other than the position we have now taken to date, which is a joint position of the region, that we want a ninety per cent/ten per cent cost-sharing formula which indicates quite clearly that the provinces concerned are willing to put forward their ten per cent or they would not have indicated any initial application or submission.

But any other position other than that I think it is quite unfair. In fact I cannot be in a position to do that to indicate what we will be discussing or negotiating if it comes to a point oJ.the federal government not accepting the submission we have now made calling for ninety per cent/ten per cent. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. -- 9(91.

May 26, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape no. 3246 Page 3 - ms A supplementary by the original questioner. Would the minister tell the House what the other . J~~ ~ ~lio~ will mean for Newfoundland, you know, in assisting the buses end that sort of thing? You know, What about the remaining $25 million? What will that involve as far as Newfoundland is concerned? Does the mi.nister have any facts on that? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. MORGAN: No, ~. Speaker. 'filis will be also, I understand, according to Mr. Lang's correspondence and announcement, subject to further di.scussion. And his announced $25 million will be available - 9(92

May 25' 1977 Tape 3247 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: for airport development, infrastructure for the _development of airports etc. and for bus services.

Now at the meeting in Charolottetown on February 7, when the other provinces, in fact it was the Maritime Premiers Conference at the time, and I was there at the meeting on behalf of our Premier who unfortunately could not attend, and at that meeting it was agreed between the federal level of government and the provinces in the regions that there is a need to review and to revise the freight rate subsidizies now being paid by the Federal Government under the Maritime Freight Rate Assistance Act whereby the Federal Government subsidizies the movement of goods within the region.

And we agreed with the Federal Government at that meeting on February 7 of this year that there is a need to revise these subsidizies and make it more selective to help the economy of the area by means of promoting and manufacturing and producers of goods in the area, and to make these subsidizies more selective. Now Mr. Lang in his announcement said that there could be some realignment of these subsidizies talking about modes of transport.

At that same meeting it was agreed then that by the Atlantic region with the Federal Government that the subsidizies paid for rail passenger operations could also be diverted to other more efficient modes of transport, and they referred to here, and roads.

Now, of course, at that meeting the two Provinces of P.E.I. and Newfoundland and Labrador, we did not o~pose that kind of an agreement based on the fact that we have already lost our rail passenger operations, since 1978 in fact, in this Province, so the two provinces concerned who do have rail passenger operations they saw fit to agree at that time with the federal minister to the possibility of reallocating the subsidizies now going into rail passenger operations, to take these subsidizies and to put them to a more efficient mode of transport in this case the bus mode and the air mode. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for Bellevue for a supplementary. - 9G93

May 25, 1977 Tape 3247 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, also to the Minister of Transportation. When the minister refers to upgrading the Trans-Canada does he mean that in some areas of the Province there will be,say,a four-lane highway or is it just upgrading where the bad spots are, patching up, and adding slow lanes on the existing highway? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, that question is a very important one because,to clari;y any misunderstanding, we are not talking about maintenance of the Trans-Canada Highway.

The Federal Government would not look at it, even consider maintenance of the existing highway; we are talking about a major reconstruction of the existing highway which would mean widening out four lanes in some sections, and to tearing up some sections completely,like the bad sections, and putting down actually a new highway in these certain areas. We are not talking about patch up jobs of the existing Trans-Canada Highway because the Feds would not go along with maintenance.

So it means that in some areas a redesign of the existing highway and a complete reconstruction job of the highway as we now see it, which in fact is in our submissio?. I would like to point out, Hr. Speaker, as well for the benefit of the House of Assembly that Mr. Lang yesterday in his announcement clearly pointed out some open ended agreements that we are looking at. He said that this money now is for a three year period, but after three years there is a possibility of ! Federal Government further assistance.

Now this is along the lines of our submission which was asking for a ten year programme - ·we know that we cannot upgrade the TCH over a short period of time, and we know that to carry out the necessary work it will take a number of years- so the application was for a ten year programme and asking for approximately :$1 billion, that was the initial application and . - submission. So. Mr. Lang yesterday said that after the three years there is a possibility that further funds would be available. -"" 9[ 94

Hay 25, 1977 Tape 3247 PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: So this now, Mr. Speaker, in my view, ~d I said so this morning,is a good beginning if we can get the programme moving within three years, and we will carry on with further discussions and negotiations to get additional funds beyond the three year period, and in the meantime we can zero in and lay emphasis on in our Province the worst sections of our Trans­ Canada Highway. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A fina1 ·-:. supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, I would like for the minister to tell the House why it is that the minister has not placed any great emphasis on a visit next week of the Standing Committee of the House of Commons on Transportations and Communications? Does the minister not think that the elected representatives of the people are a pretty important group,especially a Standing Committee on Transportation and Communications visiting this Province where everything here depends on transportation on this Island? -' 9(95

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3248 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Is the minister going to make a formal presentation to the committee, or ~vill the minister be meeting with the committee at all,or just ignoring the committee when they arrive? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, no, we will not be ignoring the committee.

Last week I received the - No, that is not correct, it was not myself, it was my colleague in Governmental Affairs initially received the first correspondence from Ottawa indicating that this House of Commons Committee on Transportation and Communications would be in the Province for a hearing to be held in St. John's. We will not be ignoring the committee, but I said recently,and I again say this morning,that we will not be making any major submission to that committee.

I do not know if I will be in a nosition myself to appear before that committee, but if not I will have a delegate there from the department, maybe from both divisions, Transport and Communications. But we are going to be putting forward our brief of any major or any consequence to the Commission of Inquiry. There seems to be - MR. NEARY: When will they be coming? MR. MORGAN: There seems to be some confusion, Mr.

Speaker, with regard to these hearings because I have received numerous inquiries in my office from different parts of the Province as to ~.;rhy is the connnittee - the Commission of Inquiry meetir.g -in St. John's on Monday?- And Monday the committee is coming in from the House of Commons so it is important not to get confused. The committee coming in Monday to the Province is a committee of the House of Commons from both sides of the House, in fact all parties, and they will be looking at transportation all over the Province. MR.

NEARY: A very significant committee as far as Newfoundland is concerned, very important. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, we do not - MR. NEARY: I am going to go down and give some evidence. .0 9(96

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3248 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is welcome to. In fact, I would like to see everybody who is concerned with Transportation to put forward their views at any of these hearings. Hhat I said, and the position of government is that we will be putting forward our major brief with regard to Transportation to the Commission of Inquiry, which we agreed upon and which is now being appointed by the federal government and which will be holding public hearings this summer throughout the Province.

We could very well maybe make an appearance as well before the committee from the House of Commons, but our major concern is our brief going in to the Commission of Inquiry in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Speaker. What representation has the Minister of Municipal Affairs received if any from the residents of Bell Island who seem to be very disturbed about the property tax that is about to be imposed over there?

And in addition to that what are the minister's plans for the imposition of property taxes within the urban region? MR. SPEAKER: and Housing. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Bell Island, obviously when a municipality imposes a property tax there are people who become upset; however, I feel that the Council on Bell Island indicated to me last year that they were going to do this.

They justified why they needed to do it to maintain their service and it is,as far as I am concerned, a just tax and it is an indication that councils are becoming a little more responsible in trying to meet the services that they provide to the citizens of their communities. With respect to the St. John's urban region, that will be decided when we get a regional government if you are talking about a regional tax. They will be charged a tax based on services with respect to residents. The business people in the - 9(97

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3248 EC - 3 MR. DINN: region will be charged a business tax as has been done by the Metro Board to date,and they will be assessed over the coming years or the coming months, and that tax will be imposed and has been approved and so on. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question I think is probably for the Minister of Justice in his capacity as House Leader. I refer to the Ombudsman's report which we received yesterday.

And on page three we notice that of the 363 written inquiries to the Ombudsman over the past year, 168 of these - about 40 per cent, almost half of these-were not in his jurisdiction. And of the 478 telephone calls or consultations again a large number of them were just not within his jurisdiction~ and of course the same thing with the interviews. People said, 'I want to see the Ombudsman; there will probably be nothing he can do to help me, but I want to talk to him.' -" 9C98

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3249 EC - 1 !"P. CALLAN: Now I am wondering does government have any intentions of bringing in amendments to the Ombudsman Act during this session of the House of Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to confess . I have not had th~ opportunity to read the entire report that was tabled here yesterday by the Ombudsman.

But looking through the report, a very cursory examination indicated that a very high percentage of the cases that were referred to him where he found that he did not have jurisdiction was because it was a matter coming under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada, for instance, Unemployment Insurance complaints he would not, or anything doing with the Ministry of Transport. So no legis­ lation that could be introduced into this Legislature co,Jld cure that defect. We cannot confer jurisdiction on the Ombudsman if we ourselves do not have the jurisdiction to pass the laws.

Secondly, the act which was brought in here but a few years ago is a good piece of legislation in my opinion. And I am sure the father of that piece of legislation will concur when I say that it is probably the most all-embracing - MR. NEARY: You mean the Only Living Father. MR. HICKMAN: - the most all-embracing well, he is still alive. He looks alive to me right at this moment. MR. NEARY: Yes - the Only Living Father of Confederation. MR. HICKMAN: No, no! MR. NEARY: Yes, yes! MR. HICKMAN: No, no! MR. NEARY: The only thing you did was appoint an Ombudsman. MR. HICKMAN: I was not talking about myself.

The hon. gentleman should pay very careful attention. And I have reason to believe that the father of the Ombuddy - MR. NEARY: - is not here. MR. HICKMAN: - is still alive. -' 9(99

May 26, 1977 MR. NEARY: MR. HIC!Qof.AN: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: Tape No. 3249 - He is not in his seat. I know he is alive. He is not in his seat, Sir. EC - 2 I cannot guarantee you that his heart is beating, but his colour is coming and going as I look at the hon. gentleman across the House at this time. If the hon. gentleman is dead, if he is dead will he please stand up and confirm this dreadful and tragic news. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.. HICKMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, for - MR. SPEAKER: of order. MR. CALLAN: But as I was saying - I most stop this! Oh, oh! I am getting like 'Luke' .

This early in the morning too. It is much too early in the morning, An hon. gentleman has arisen on a point I think that the hon. minister is wasting the Question Perioc and I think he should get on with his answer and clown around some other time,outside probably. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order I will assiduously refrain from commenting on the accomplishments of bon. gentleman opposite again if the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) takes offence to it. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, on page twelve of that same report which I referred to a moment ago, the Ombudsman here points out that there is a need for amendments. He says it himself. He has asked government, and he says here, "To this date there has been no response to my recommendation" - recommendation that amendments be brought in to the Parliamentary Commissi~~er - the Ombudsman Act. So the Ombudsman himself sees the need for amendments to the Act even though it may be -~ s1.no

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3249 EC - 3 ~. CALLAN: a good Act and all that sort of thing. But I am wondering if legislation cannot be brought in to amend the Act. You know, we have heard over the past several months of an awful lot of sad bills - it was quite common to hear Mr. Speaker say, 'When shall a sad bill I wonder could we have a happy bill brought in to change this Act? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, we have to change the Question Period! We cannot allow Question Period so early in the morning. A sad bill!

There has never been a bill introduced by the Moores administration that was not a happy one! And that is why all bills have been so enthusiastically accepted by hon. gentlemen opposite. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from Bellevue (Mr. Callan) is referring to a recommendation, or a request rather, in the Ombudsman's Report with respect to a decision of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland approximately a year ago. Mr. Justice Nathaniel S. Noel -- 91.1J1

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3250 Page 1 - ms Mr. Hickman. held that the Ombudsman did not have jurisdiction over the Waterford Hospital under the provisions of their act. My understanding is that the - MR. NOLAN: This House can change it. MR.. HICKMAN: This House can change it, but that is not a simple amendment. The amendment itself is simple. Bringing the amendment into the House is easy, no problem at all. But the question as to whether or not a hosital of that kind should come under the jurisdiction of an Ombudsman is not that simple and not that easy to resolve, and that is why - MR.

NOLAN: Is the minister saying that the Ombudsman does not agree to another provision. MR. HICKMAN: - and that is why when the framers of this legislation, when the framers of this legislation drafted the act, I assume that is why they specifically excluded it. MR. SIMMONS: It is a real sign - MR. HICKMAN: What is a real - ? MR. SIMMONS: You gave him no power to do the job. MR. PECKFORD: How would you know anything about that? MR. HICKMAN: I am sure that the bon. gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) would take very strong exception to the comment that just arose from his colleague, the bon. member for Burgeo- Bay d' Espoir (Mr. Simmons). He would have to, because I know what strong feeling and affection he has for that particular bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR..

HICKMAN : And I am sure that he can explain to this House if he was asked, ifWe could ask questions of the bon. gentlemen opposite, which unfortunatley we cannot, that he would explain to the House why at the time of the framing of the act,having looked very carefully at existing legislation, the Waterford Hospital, or Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases were excluded; and they were excluded for a very good reason, -- 91.02

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3250 Page 2 - ms Mr • Hickman. Mr. Speaker. They were excluded because on the best advice of the government of the day and on the best advice that this government has been able to receive, it has been deemed not appropriate at this time to bring in an amendment to the act as it relates to the Wat~rford Hospital. But that does not say that, you know~ professional advice may not change and circumstances may change. And I am sure that this House is open to that amendment if it would appear appropriate so to do. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Terra Nova. MR.

NEARY: It appears appropriate so to do. It would appear not. A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, then the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I understood the hon. gentleman correctly or not when the hon. gentleman said that the Waterford Hospital was excluded from the act. My understanding, Sir, of the Supreme Court decision is that they used a technicali~y to bar the Ombudsman from getting at the records of the patients at the Waterford Hospital. And the way they did it was that because it was under a board. All other jurisdictions, all other Crown corporations - AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: No, hold on now. - all other Crown corporations, the Ombudsman has access·· to the records, but in the case of the Waterford Hospital it is under a board and not considered to be a government agency. And that is why the Supreme Court made the decision. Is the minister aware that it will only take a minor amendment to change that to give the Ombudsman the access that he should have to the files at the Waterford Hospital, an access that Ombudsmen in other jurisdictions have? MR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: That is not right. That is right, Sir.

Well, the Ombudsman must not know what he was talking about, because I discussed it with him recently, and he has researched it. -· 91.03

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3250 Page 3 - ms MR.. ~PEAKER: The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the request of the Parliamentary Commissioner was that in view of the decision of Mr. Justice Noel of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland, who held that the Ombudsman had no jurisdiction to investigate complaints of patients at the Waterford Hospital, that in view of that decision that consideration be given to amending the act to designate the Waterford Hospital as an agency for the pu~oses- that would be an agency of the Crown - for the purposes of the act. What I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, that the reason - I suppose you could use it the other way around - the reason I assume that in the definition of agencies provided in the original act did not include the Waterford Hospital - MR. NEARY: It could be any agency that is under a board. MR. HICKMAN: - it was on verv - MR. NEARY: It could be the College of Trades.next. MR. • HICKMAN : I repeat, Mr. Speaker, and my colleague, the Minister of Health I am sure would concur in this, that the advice that has been received so far has not been of the sort to warrant that particular change at this time. MR. NEARY: Why the discrimination? MR..

SPEAKER: A supplementarv. MR. NOLAN: Would the Minister of Justice be good enough? He has now referred on a number of occasions to the advice that they have received thus far. We would like to know what advice, from whom and when and will he table it? It is as simple as that. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: The advice - this came up in the last session . I of the House, I am sure, Mr. Speaker.

Following the receipt of last year s report by the Ombudsman, my colleague, the Minister of Health sought professional advice with respect to the desirability of amending the act, and my recollection is - MR. NEARY: Surely, you are not a psychiatrist • -- 9:104

May 26, 1977 Tape 3251 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: read the

article in The Weekend,of The Evening Telegram. MR. HICKMAN : I am being harassed. MR. NEARY: No,you are just being stunned 1 that is all, not bei~g harassed. MR. HI001AN: I am being harassed. MR. NEARY: Stunned. You are just as stunned on this as you on the park and vandalism and crime. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. HICKMAN: I cannot take this. Then stop. I refuse to answer it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, probably the question is more appropriately directed to the Minister of Tourism, but since he is not here I will direct the question to the Minister of Justice, the House Leader. MR. SIMMONS : '\ole have a real Sesame Street over there. MR. LUSH: I wonder what action, ~vhat additional action the government have taken with respect to the allegations, certainly the most recent ones again made by the NDP member, John Rodriguez,with respect to land ownership in the Terra Nova National Park? And members will recall that a couple of weeks ago he said the land was being built on, land rnmed by ministers.

And I do not think that the government made this clear certainly to the people of Newfoundland whether this was accurate.He named the Minister of Health as owning land, -l1R. HICKEY: He named me. MR. LUSH: Yes. He named the Minister of Tourism, Mr. Hickey, And then yesterday it is changed; it is not Provincial Cabinet ministers 9 what he said previously, now it is politicians. And I am sure that most people, a lot of people throughout Newfoundland and indeed a lot of people throughout Canada think the only people living on the Eastport Peninsula are politicians.

And again he named yesterday the Leader of the Opposition as owning a Summer home out in the area. And I have wondered whether the minister or whether the government have checked into this? And he named the han. Mr. Morgan as well as owning land out there. -- 9:1P5

May 26, 1977 Tape 3251 PK - 2 MR. ROWE: Does he own a Summer home out there? MR. SPEAKER: The hou. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKmlN: Mr. Speaker, yesterday in response to a question from the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications adYised this House that he does not own any property in the Eastport Peninsula. He is not in a position obviously to answer for the hon. Jack Pickersgill or the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. H. COLLINS: I do not own any. MR. NEARY: You were not mentioned yesterday. You did not even rate - MR. H. COLLINS: Who is - MR.

NEARY: - you did not even rate with Mr. Rodriguez yesterday. MR. H. COLLINS: Who was working with Rodriguez? MR. NEARY: You did not rate with him at all. You did not even - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! -smm HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Ron. gentlemen sho~ld not interrupt when the hon. minister is answering. MR. HICKMAN: Yes. In any event, Mr. Speaker, tf this House - AN RON. MEMBER: A point of order has been raised. MR. SPEAKER: If you wish to raise a point of order, you may. MR. NOLAN: This is what we are trying to do, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Which hon. gentleman intends to raise a point of order? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Only one will have the floor at a time, The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: The hon. gentleman opposite quite clearly has indicated to our friend opposite that there is someone over here in cahoots with Mr. Rodriguez. We do not even know him. Who is working with Mr. Rodriguez? Now T\mean we have alraady had a resolution in this House concerning Mr. Rodriguez and his statements. We would like a -- 91.06

May 26, 1977 Tape 3251 PK - 3 Mr. Nolan: withdrawal, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: .Inaudible. MR. NOLAN: Let the hon. Galoot withdraw, Mr. Speaker, he is in need of psychiatric care. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the comments of the hon. gentleman are derogatory to the individual involved and they are derogatory to the House, and the member certainly ~ho _is- a- distinguished member of this Legislature will not be required by Your Honour to withdraw the remarks; he will do it voluntary I am sure. SOME RON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If one hon. member said of another that he was working in cahoots with or in association with Mr. Rodriguez that is not an unparliamentary expression; it might be a difference of opinion, the hon. gentleman might deny it. He might say it has nothing to do Yith the NDP, ne is not working with Mr. Rodriguez. He might say he does not agree with Mr. Rodriguez. I could hardly say to the allegation that one is associated with Mr. Rodriguez is an unparliamentary association, it is an unparliamentary allegation.

There might be a difference of opinion, bon. gentlemen could deny it. The term 11 galoot" which has been used on more than one occasion has been decided to be unparliamentary. I am sure the hon. gentleman would want to withdraw it. MR. SIMMONS: It is very apt! SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 0 0 0 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have one notice of motion. Things went so quickly this morning that I did not catch up . May I have leave to revert to Notice of Motion? MR. SPEAKER: Leave to revert to Notice of Motion? SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. Agreed. -·· 91.07

May 26, 1977 Tape 3251 PK - 4 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Finance, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to intrQduce a bill, . "An Aet To Amend The Education (Teachers' Pension) Ac~'.', (Bill No. 41). -9108

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3252 ORDERS OF THE DAY: Page 1 - ms MR. HICKMAN: We have got two or three first readings. Motion 8. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 8. Motion, the han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act," carried.(Bill No. 68). On motion, Bill No. 68 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Mi.. HICKMAN: BR.. SBBAKER: Motion 9 Motion 9. Motion, the han.

Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Act The Labrador Lands (Reservation) Act," carried. (Bill No. 66) • On motion, Bill No. 66 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: MR.. SPEAKER: Motion 10. Motion 10. Motion, the han. Minister of Tourism to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Tourist Establishments Act," carried. (Bill No. 64). On motion, Bill No. 64 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: Motion 11. Motion 11. Motion, the han.

Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of Marriage Act, 1974," carried. (Bill No. 65). On motion. Bill No. 65 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Committee of Supply. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

May 26' 1977 Tape no. 3252 Page 2 - ms COMMITTEE"OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: Head XVII - Transportation and Communications, page 107. MR. CHAIRMAN: Page 107, Item XVII- Transportation and Communications, Head 701-01. The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, in introducing the estimates for the Department of Transportation and Communications, first of all I will say that this has been my second year as the minister responsible for this department.

Unfortunately last year we did not get the estimates before the House of Assembly. And this being my second year I am pleased that we now get them before the House and have a five hour,debate on the estimates. I do not want to take up too much time, but I would like to,in my introduction of the 2stimates, talk about the department, what we have been doing over the past year and outline some of the things that we expect to be doing and hope to be doing in 1977, and in fact in the future.

I am sure that all han. gentlemen are aware that the department is in this Province responsible for almost all modes of transport, and also for communications,which is becoming a very important aspect of any department today anywhere in the country.

The Transportation Division is not as active or as mundane, if you wish, as the Highways and Bridges Division, which is responsible for the building of roads and to maintain these roads after they are built, but it is a very, very active department over the last number of years in particular. since I became minister -- I know we have been involved in numerous meetings and discussions with not only the federal level of government but also our counterparts and colleagues, if you wish, in the Atlantic region.

And we continuously monitor the services provided, whether it be air services or rail services or water services or road. That is the main function of that division. And over the past year, I think the transportation _,. 91.10

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3252 Page 3 - ms MR. MORGAN: problems in our Province were brought forward to the federal level of government, in fact in some cases across the nation, the problems we have been experiencing in Newfoundland with regards to transportation which seems to have been accumulating over the years,building up worse and worse each year. It finally came to a head when it was brought to the forefront in Ottawa that Ottawa agreed to appoint a Commission of Enquiry to look at all aspects of transportation in the Province.

And I am sure that all hon. gentlemen will agree that we are looking forward to that commission getting the views of as many concerned Newfoundlanders as possible so that they can make .a good report to Ottawa and look forward to ~- 91.11.

May 26, 1977 Mr. Morgan. Tape no. 3253 Page 1 - ms action from that enquiry. But I must say in my view the appointment of that Commission of Enquiry is a major step forward. I have expressed a view to my coun~erpart in Ottawa,and in fact so has the Premier,along the lines that we do not want this study to be another study to be made and filed away and forgotten about or an excuse to do nothing about transportation problems. I must say that the co-operation received as of recent months from the federal level of government, I have to commend them for their co-operation.

There seems to be a change of attitude on the part of the officials, number one, and the politicians, number two. Mr. Lang, for example when I first became minister I know I was quite critical many times, outspoken many other times against the federal minister in talking about his programmes and policies in transportation, particularly his 1user pay 1 concept. _And being outspoken sometimes, the federal government looked upon us as radicals in the region, and we are not going to discuss the important problems. But it finally came down to a point that what we were saying was recognized by Ottawa to be true.

We did have some very major problems, and the attitude of Ottawa has now changed. Mr. Lang, for example, at a meeting no longer than a few months ago conceded to the region that the user pay concept must not apply to the Atlantic region and to Newfoundland and Labrador, and changed legislation accordingly in Ottawa. And this, I think, is significant that the attitude now towards our Province and in fact the whole region is changing and is a major step forward. The department, of course, is divided into divisions.

The Air Services Division is sometimes very seldom mentio~ed­ except if there is some controversv~ the use of a helicopter or something of that nature - it is very seldom mentioned the important significance of that division. For example, the Air Services Division last year, by use of helicopters, which we have chartered on a contract from Universal Helicopters, during the past year, for example, airlifted 189 patients to the hospitals and clinics around the Province. And our King Air aircraft, 9i.i;c;

May 26, 1917 T~ne no. 3253 ~age 2 - ms Mr. Morgan. which is not a jet aircraft - it is often referred to by some critics as saving, the government's jet is going from here to there - it is a turbo prop King Air aircraft, and it is used almost exclusively for air ambulance service. And last year,over the past year 1976 that aircraft airlifted 118 patients to hq~pitals and sometimes in the middle of the night, all hours of the night, twenty-four hour service, a very important service provided by the Air Services Division. And, of course, that division as well is actively epgaged in the development of the St.

John's Airport. You very seldom hear the minister responsible - this case, myself - talking about or indicating what is going to be done at St. John's Airport or Gander Airport. It is usually said by the City Council of St. John's or said by the Member of Parliament for the Gander area,and rightly so. But we are actively and very closely involved. In fact we have delegations from the Department of Air Services Division, from the department, on these committees working actively to obtain the necessary improvements to airports throughout the Province.

In our Air Services Division, of course, we do have seven aircraft now. We have the one King Air,which I- just mentioned,which is used for air ambulance services and used by the ministers and the Premier to travel to various parts of the Province and in fact in many cases outside the Province to important meetings. And we have now a new addition to our Air Services Division, which was outlined by my colleague, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture a few days ago, by means of a purchase of a Cessna aircraft which will be under the Air Services Division but used exclusively by the Forestry Division.

And we have five Canso water bombers in the Air Services Division. These also are used primarily by the Forestry Division in forest fire fighting and last year these five Cansos fought ninety-eight fires. I would like to commend,by the way,in my opening statement today on the estimates that these men who operate these water Canso bombers, these men are very seldom mentioned in the public, and they do a commendable

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3253 Page 3 - ms Mr. Morgan. job. There is no question about that. And I would like to commend them for their work last year in fighting ninety-eight fires, and I would like to see all of them remain with the department and carry on their good work in the coming year. Mr. Chairman, the Communications Division, last year I would say has been a very, very active year. We were successful in getting the federal minister to come to our Province and to again realize that we have problems not only in transportation - that was put forward quite forcibly to Ottawa - but also in communications.

And when the federal minister came in with, I think, sixteen or seventeen of his officials and sat down with us here in the Province for a two-day meeting, it was agreed that the federal government would pay for most of the cost of very ~ntensive studies into two major aspects of communications, one being the telephone service throughout the Province, particularly in Labrador where there are many, ~9114

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3254 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: many problems regarding communications, and the federal government agreed to carry out a very intensive study jointly, a federal/provincial study into telephone services throughout the Province, primarily in the rural areas. Also they agreed at the same time between two levels of government that a study would be made of the broadcasting signals in the different parts of the Province. Now these things are not usually mentioned too much in the public and the public is not aware of these things. But I am convinced that Madame Sauve - the hon.

Madame Sauve in Ottawa who has been connected with the communications world for so long - is genuinely concerned over the problems we have in communications. I commend,therefore, her efforts in the Atlantic region in particular. She seems to be very sensitive to our needs and I am convinced it was she a minister who was the major factor in us making any progress the past year with regard to these studies.

She has now agreed that as soon as the studies are completed - and I would like to indicate to the House that the study on broadcasting was completed just a few days ago, It is n~7 being compiled, and then we are going to sit down with the federal minister and determine what can be done to overcome these broadcasting signal proble~s and reception throughout the Province. And in many cases they are minor things, but we need some guidelines and some assistance~! would say also,with regard to steps to be taken to overcome these problems.

The most talked about division of the Department of Transportation is the Highways Division, and every person in this House of Assembly is concerned because most of us have gravel roads and some of them are very bad gravel roads. And then we are concerned not only with the conditions of the roads in the Summertime, we are concerned in the ~·Jintertime vJith the majntenance operations. So that is the most talked about and most heard of division, I guess. And we have in that division a very competent group of engineers.

And of course I would like to say before I listen to Oppos~tion spokesmen with their comments that I feel the staff of the Department of Transportation and Communications - you will not find a better staff -9115

Yay 26, 1977 Tape No. 325!. EC' - 2 an~~here in any govern~ent department. I am fortunate to have as ~y deputy minister ano assistant deputy the top OttC!litv enpi_neers. In li'Y travels throu:;rhont the Province rvith these gentlemen their knoHledge of roa~s :Ln fact is trel"'lenclous because they Here involyed in buil~ing Y'lost of these roac'ls around the Province anc they Jrnm,r the roacls and the rocr.c1 problei"s first hand. But the situation is that the Highways J'ivis:i.on has been very, very active.

Last year, for example, the depart~ent paved 260 miles of road throughout the Prov:l .nce ant: reconstructed a further 227,000 - 227, I am sorry- 260 miles of pavement and 227 miles of reconstruction, that r,;ras last year in 1976. !-!ow I ~,rould like to indicate that consj c.erable prop.:ress has been made since 1972 in the paving of roans.

This govern!!1ent, this a<'lministration, h<'ls pavecl 1,200 miles of road since t2.ldng over arlrninistration - 1,200 miles. ."'.nd prior to 197 - T,!oulcl. the T"'inis ter - •m • ~·nn_G_AN: !f the hon. gent]eman froli' - l!lY colleague - 1vonlr Hait until the ti'l"'.e for debate I ~voulfl appreciate it. ~·r. ~hai.nnan, l•re h<>ve paved 1,200 l!liles of road and now the previous ac1ministrat:.on roafle a substantial effort as well. :r mean, for example in 1972 there t;rere J, f'()

r) TI'iJes of roacl pavecl pr:i.or to onr co'!"'in!" into power. Now the naving of roads in this Province is unfortunateJy ouite different from paving of roads in Hester.n Canada l·Jhere they do not ha,re the same rugged terrain Pe have here.

The cost of our reconstruction ann paving of roads is five tlrnes as high, for exaiTiple, as it is in .Alberta and SaskatcheHan because of the nature of the terrain of the country and. this puts us in a very hac condition because the ilo1lars that we have avP.ilah1.e to us ~.re ~an Ret only about one fifth of the roacl Hork that cC~n hP. ilone ~· ri t'-1 the same a!:"ount o-F fnnds over in some part o~ r.restern ranaca where the r.:rmey is usual 1y evaiJ ahle. So, Fr. rh.ai rlTian, a number of chrm~es r::tve ceen mace in the ~Kaintenance n-Jvision of the Hir,ht-1 ays anrl r"np,ineer:inf!

Division ancl ~rir1ges Divis:! on. 1faintenance, of course, is a rnaj or concern to all cf us r.rho use the hig'':may, <me all our Cl.istricts. Last vear, I must s~y - and. T a!'1 not blo"t-ring !'!V o-.:-111. horn ; I al'l blovring the horn of the "-' 91.1.6

rtay 26, 1977 Tape No. 3254 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: officials of the departlllent, because we made some significant changes around the Province with regard to maintenance operations - and I a:m of the opinion that the number of complaints with regard to maintenance of our roads last winter was down considerably over any other year. And we made some significant changes throughout the Province by moving depots and -'" 91.1.7

May 26, 1977 Tape 3255 PK - 1 Mr. Morgan: reallocating the men in different areas, and using different techniques, and building new depots, and new camps for the men, providing new facilities for the men, and we found that last year in 1976 was the best year ever around the Province with regards to complaints; and it was not because of weather conditions because the Western part of the Province had received the heaviest snowfall in the history of the area last Winter, and on the Eastern part of the Province ~-1e had some of the worst freezing rain conditions that we ever had in the Province.

But the complaints are down. Now, of course, to keep those complaints down we have to spend money. Last year, for example, the department spent more than $3 million worth for the purchase of salt. We used 120,000 tons of salt throughout the Province. That averages out to around 40 tons per mile on our highway. Sometimes people are saying we are using too much, He are using this, but we are trying to keep the complaints down and keep the roads in a safe driving condition in Winter months. But ,Mr.

Chairman, we have in our maintenance division last Winter ~ve had 300 pieces of snow plowing equipment ir. operation, we had 250 pieces of sanding operations in operation, and we had a little more than 3,000 men employed in that division. And I would like to say as well that these employees last Winter, I would like to say that they did a commendable job. They were under sort of pressure for a while whether to go on strike or not. T~en the vote was taken, they did not vote to go on strike. ~hey voted to stay on at work. And they did a very commendable job.

I am not blowing my own horn in saying the complaints were down, I am saying that fuey did a tremdndous job throughout the Province. And I sincerely hope they will continue on doing a good job again in the future years. Summer maintenance, of course, is not as important because roads are not as dangerous, but the dust problem is a problem which we are all concerned with on roads we cannot find the funds for to pave. And in many cases what we do, we make attempts to control the dust. We started this programme when I became minister in the Fall of _,. 9:118

May 26, 1977 Tape 3255 PK - 2 Mr. Morgan: 1976, a programme ·of dust control using liquid calicum, This is used extensively by other provinces, mostly on farm roads, particularly in the Atlantic region. It is quite harmless to health. There has been numerous research work carried out. It is a good programme. This year ~ve are going to be heavily involved , in fact, we are going to be using liquid calicum on approximately 350 miles of gravel road t~roughout th e Province, primarily in places where people are living, and where people are commuting back and forth to work daily.

We are going to use this calicum to control the dust, and the people who have seen this method of dust~·control in action are quite pleased with this measure, and we are going to continue on to use it. MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: It does a marvelous job. It does a good job. But, Mr. Chairman, of course, the obvious thing that people want wherever there is a gravel road, they want it reconstructed and paved, and this of course is rightly so. Everybody deserves to have paved roads. The unfortunate thing is we have limited funds available, and ~y-e cannot reconstruct and pave all of the roads in one or t"tvo years.

Rowever I will refute any charges made by the Opposition that were made in the past, that we are not fair to districts who have representation other than on the government side. SOME RON. ME}ffiERS: ~. MORGAN: Oh, oh! Last year I atte~pted to travel the Province as much as possible, in fact, I travelled extensively. There are only one or two districts in the Province that I did not visit, and I intend to go these places as soon as the House closes for its Summer recess.

I feel that a minister responsible for roads etc. should not be sitting in h.is office, and this is what I have been doing,getting out and travelling over the roads, not flying over the roads, but travelling over the roads. In some cases during the past two months because of a , tight

schedule I would use helicopters to get to a point, take a car from there, and drive over the road, and have a . 91.19

May 26, 1977 Tape 3255 PK - 3 Mr. Morgan: helicopter pick me up at the far end and carry on to save time~ But I travel over the roads, see the conditions, and I am always accompanied by at least one senior official, and these officials are engineers. I am . making myself fully aware and knowledgeable of road conditions, and when I get a petition in to table in the House or forwarded to my department or letters etc. at least I know what the people are talking about in most cases.

So I intend to continue on with that kind of policy to travel as much as possible, and see firsthand the road conditions and to get as much work done as possible based on the needs of the area, and I re~emphasize that, the needs of the area,to use the funcs for that purpose to reconstruct the roads in preparation for paving. Now, Mr. Chairman, one other division that I have not mentioned yet and that is the Motor Vehicle Registration, and the Administration Division. That division of course is a very important division as well. We have made some changes there.

We, for example, brought in public liability insurance,compulsory insurance that came into effect since I became minister. And we have changed legislation dealing with impaired drivers, making it tougher, ~9120

May 26' 1977 Tape no. 3256 Page 1 - ms Mr. Morgan. and we have now made it compulsory to register all vehicles c for example, snow vehicles and all-terrain vehicles. We are now planning, and in fact within 1977 will implement a system of classified drivers' licence, and we also intend to establish the point system or merit system,as it is known in many provinces. I think this is long overdue and I now have people working on it. And I am not saying that we are considering it. I am saying that I intend to introduce that system this year, in 1977.

And this, of cou1:se, is the policy of government and we feel that this should be done. There was some controversy when I decided as minister - overriding the recommendations of people who were considered to be experts in safety on the highway - when I decided as minister to overrule these recommendations and change the regulations of driving on the highway and the sign changes. We had signs which read, as we all know, Slower Traffic Keep Right.

The experts~or people who call themselves experts,were totally opposed to these changes despite the fact that I reviewed the situation thoroughly by travelling the highway, accompanied by the engineers. We did experimental tests using radar. After these tests were carried out, I made the decision to change these signs, and I am convinced that these signs,and the programme we have been using of putting forward the need for extra caution on the highway,that this has reduced substantially the number of accidents on our highways.

In fact,the latest figures show that we are the lowest in Canada with regards to accidents on the Trans- Canada Highway since one year ago, a year from this month. And that, I think, is significant. So there have been a number of changes made, and we contemplate further changes in the future. But, Mr. Chairman, in just basically tou~hing on most of the divisions in the department, rather than to take up the time of the Committee, I will welcome - and, of course, there is always going to be criticism -but I would like for criticism to be constructive.

I would like to hear the views of the Opposition members -- 91.21

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3256 Page 2 - ms MR. MORGAN. on different matters pertaining to transportation and roads. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: - So, Mr. Chairman, I will listen to the comments, and make note and reply to the comments from the Opposition. MR.. CHAIRMAN : The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr.Chairman, just a few words on the transportation situation in this Province. First of all I must say that I am amazed by the minister's speech that he was so gracious to the federal government.

I have sat in this Chamber for the last two years, and the answers to questions placed to the minister and the minister's attitude has been totally negative as far as the federal government is concerned, and suddenly today he is full of praise for his federal counterpart. As a matter of fact in listening to the good things that come from his department, most of them came from Ottawa. Mr. Chairman, one of the things that has bothered me from this side of the House is the attitude that this government has had towards Ottawa in the past year.

And the types of things that have been said about Ottawa by the minister - of course, the minister has seen the light now, and he has gotten a few things from Ottawa, arid he is full of praise for Ottawa and perhaps the political situation somewhat has changed. But the very fact that the minister has approached I Ottawa in the way that he has since he has taken over, I think has been detrimental in us achieving very much with them. I have talked with the people in Ottawa in Mr.

Lang's office, and verv often relations have been stormy between this Province and Ottawa mainly because - and this is not from the Minister of Transportation only but other ministers as well - we bite the hand that feedsus verv often. But there has been in the past a great deal of frustration experienced on the Ottawa side. Mr. Chairman, we have just recently heard an announcement that there will be some funds made available for the ~- 91.22

Mav 26, 1977 Tape no. 3256 Page 3 - ms Mr. J. Hodder. Trans-Canada Highway. I just want to sav a few words about the Trans-Canada Highway in that in the past couple of years - or in the past five or six years - the Trans-canada Highway has not really been looked after. And although it was built on a federal/ provincial plan, this Province has never held up its end as far as that highway is con.cerned. - 9123

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3257 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: Now I look at the Trans-Canada Highway as being Newfoundland's big highway. That is the one that visitors see when they arrive. That is the one which the commerce of the Province, the freight of the Province and everything else passes over. And that is the road I think that we must at all cost keep in good condition.

Now granted, I with the minister have looked to every bit of federal help that can be achieved, but I think that it is wrong when we spend half the year or the year talking about the need for federal upgrading, leading the people of the Province to believe that the federal government is in some way totally responsible for that highway. The federal government is not totally responsible for that highway. The provincial government is responsible as well and I think that we have fallen down in great measure on that road.

The minister talked for some time about t:he highway sectl.o·n ot the department and in speaking he mentioned that the people who are employed in his department are good men,and I must echo that. I can only speak for my own district because I deal with those people very closely. And the people in the Department of Transportation and Communications throughout the area, I must say, in the past two or three years they have shown a great dedication. The attitude in the department - the people who work there~ from the manager down~it is a well-run department.

I do not give this to the minister as a bouquet, but I do know that as far as road reconstruction-and I am just thinking primarily in my own district - road reconstruction, snow clearing and all the problems that are faced in that particular area, with the amount of money that the local men have they have done a great job. But I would also like to talk about the snow storms. Last winter we had several large snow storms, and the minister did what I thought was a very good thing.

He put out a booklet of numbers where people could 'phone to find out what the condition of the highway or the condition of the local area is, and I think that was :91.24

~AY 26, 1977 Tape No. 3257 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: an excellent idea. We had a couple of severe storms on the West Coast and at one particular point I was leaving Corner Brook at seven o'clock in the morning so I 'phoned the number that was listed in the little book but there was no answer. I 'phoned the RCMP - there was a light snow falling - and they could not tell me what the road was like. They thought that maybe the Trans-canada was in some bad shape but possibly you could pass over it. So I left on my way to Stephenville. The radio stations were announcing that the road was open between Port-aux-Basques and St.

John's. Suddenly we were stuck. After that, that sort of made me wonder just exactly how good those numbers were so after that I checked on some of the numbers that were listed by the minister. And basically what I found out, Mr. Chairman, is that there is no sys~em at all - there is just a list of published numbers. Very often you cannot get answers on those numbers. There is no system by which the media of the Province can get in touch with the situation on those roads, because the only thing on the roads is the snow clearing equipment.

If this snow clearing equipment does not call radio communications equipment then - now I know in some places they do, but most of the snow clearing equipment in this Province does not carry communications equipment. Now these are the people who are out on the road. The Mounties are not out there; they only have cars the same as the rest of us, so the only way we can find out is if there are radio systems in those vehicles. Now the use of a number - if the people back in the main office do not know the condition of the road it is useless,and I say, Mr.

Chairman, that we must put communications equipment in all snow clearing vehicles. And I think in the long run we would save money and we might even save some lives.

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3258 Page 1 - ms Mr. J. Hodder. Mr. Chairman, the Department of Transportation and Communications as far as I can see has been paving roads in a hodgepodge,slap-jack manner in this Province and reconstructing roads in this Province. The minister a few minutes ago said that this administration had paved 1,200 miles of road since they came into office. Some of this paving was done following along with the plans of the former administration where tenders had been called first when this administration came in. But I feel that in this Province, Mr.

Chairman, that we have to look at all the unpaved roads in this Province, ever1 one of them and then we have got to look at all those roads that are already paved but must be reconstructed. And we must decide which roads are the most important, because I know there is a list of priorities from year to year, but what we need, Mr. Chairman, is' to look at all the roads and let the people know, let the House of Assembly know this is what will happen as regard to new paving, reconstructing or the placing of calcium chloride or whatever might be done. I feel that this is something that must be done, Mr.

Chairman, so that people who are sending those petitions to us, we can say to them, Look, this road will be done at a certain time. This is the minister's list. But, Mr. Chairman, I must say that I do feel that the method of calcium chloride on the roads in the Province that are unpaved is a good one. And I welcome the use of calcium chloride and I hope that the minister will make good his promise and place calcium chloride on the unpaved roads, because it is a problem, Mr. Chairman, particularly in some of the rural areas of the Province with the dust.

And speaking of dust, I must add support to my friend and colleague from Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout). The road to the Baie Verte Highway is a must. I do not know why the minister has been so stuborn about it. But I feel that he must recapitulate. The studies have been done. And I feel that if there is a health factor in any part of this Province -I would like to see paving in my district, and I am sure other hon. members would as well.- but when it comes to a health problem and when we have expert advice telling us that there is a health problem and ~- 9126

May 26' 1977 Tape no. 3258 Page 2 - ms Mr. J. Hodder. that there are fibres in the air more than there should be, then I think the minister should not hmm and ha. He should immediately jump and make some sort of a commitment on this particular highway. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, a few brief remarks on the roads. I think the Minister of Transportation and Communications is deserving of a little credit, and perhaps'some credit. And I am a great believer in giving credit where credit is due.

And having said that I trust that the minister is not going to accept what I am going to say as all bouquets. However, it was interesting to note, as my colleague, the member for Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder) stated, the minister stated that since this government have come into power they have paved 1,200 miles compared to the 1,600 miles that the previous administration had paved. Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister did not tell us that most of those roads, practically all of the roads, all of the roads in this Province, were constructed by the previous administ~ation.

And, of course, when the present administration took over, there was very little construction to do. You know, it is very easy to build on after the foundation is there. 'MR. HORGAN : That is what I said. CAPT. WINSOR: That is right. And, of course, this is where sometimes the previous administration does not get the credit which it deserves. Therefore, I think if there is any credit due to the previous administration, it is the credit that we have the privilege of feeling that it was the previous administration who broke the curse of isolation in this Province, the hundreds of communities that were connected up.

And now we find the minister taking great pride in the fact that their administration have paved 1,200 miles. Twelve hundred miles is very impressive. And I sincerely ~· 9:127

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3259 EC - 1 CAPT. WINSOR: trust that with the cost of paving today compared to what it was even two or three years ago that within the next year or so every inch or every mile of road should be paved in this Province, because, Mr. Chairman, I doubt very much if ever 'ire will see prices of paving comparable to what it is today. So I would urge the minister to try to impress upon his colleagues, and when I say his colleagues, the cabinet ministers, to press for what­ ever pavement they can get this year.

Prices are favourable, unemploy­ ment is raging, is rampant all over the Province, so it is a golden opportunity to combine the two and certainly make impressive progress toward paving the roads in this Province. Now I must come back to my own district and here is where I am going to give the minister a little bouquet - he has done remarkably in road construction and paving in Fogo district. But here again, it is not all provincial funds. Most of the money that is spent on the Loop -Road is DREE funds and which is sometimes being overlooked by the present administration.

But having all of those funds made available through DREE then what is happening to the provincial share of expenditure? When we have DREE taking the responsibility for a greater part of road construction and paving then surely there must be quite a sizeable sum of money that the provincial government has that they should be able to apply to the gravel roads which DREE do not include. We have a situation on Fogo Island, Mr. Chairman, which is a deplorable one, -and I am sure the minister will agree with me that there is so.

On Fogo Island we have ten communities and with the exception of two, they are all connected up by gravel roads. And here, Mr. Chairman, I do not think the minister will boast about his activity or his performance on Fogo Island. There we have an area that ~as almost doomed to die, but by the initiative, the get•up-and-go of the people of Fogo Island they have made a success of that community. And we have ten communities here which depend wholely and solely on the fishery - nothing else. It is an isolated area and yet we have fish plant - one or two - two - yes, one at Seldom and one at Joe Batt 1 s Arm.

And all of -- 91.28

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3259 EC - 2 CAPT. WINSOR: the fish which comes to Seldom plant has to be trucked over those gravel roads. And, Mr. Chairman, the condition of those roads, Sir, during the hot weather in Summer, it is nothing less than fog, dense fog really, to get through there. And this must have an effect on the quality of fish and I will have more to say about this when we get into the estimates on fisheries. So if we are going to produce a good quality of fish, Mr.

Chairman, on Fogo Island then the Minister of Transportation with the Minister of Fisheries can perhaps use their influence with the Premier and the Cabinet to get something done in that area. I think the concentration should be in areas where we have communities depending wholely and solely on the fishery and have to transport their product over those gravel roads. Sir, there is no way the Co-op or the buyers of Fogo Island fish, buyers on Fogo Island,- produce a Grade A quality when they have to truck the fish over that gravel road, that dusty road. So I have discussed this on many occasions with the minister.

I find him very sympathetic, but sometimes sympathy must be followed through with action. And I sincerely hope that the minister will be able to do something about that. And I agree with him about this calcium spray: -·· 9129

May 26,1977 Tape 3260-Horning AH-1 CAPT. WINSOR: it is next to pavement. I do not see or I cannot see where anything else can take the place of this calcium spray and if the minister cannot find a few extra dollars to do some paving on Fogo Island then I would sincerely hope that he will be able to carry out a spraying programme there this summer. Then of course there is the controversy in two areas of the Fogo district,namely Aspen Cove and Ladle Cove~and I am sure the minister is well aware of the problems which exist there.

And a similar case,but not to the same extent~where fishermen have to truck their fish from Ladle Cove and Aspen Cove all the way to Valleyfield. And as I said, Hr. Chairman, you know it is just utterly impossible to provide a good quality of fish when we have to contend with that dusty condition. So here again if the minister cannot find the money to pave that area, then I think he should carry out a spraying programme. Generally, Mr.

Chairman, Fogo Island, and I said this at the beginning - Fogo district, rather has served very well with road and paving construction and I am giving the minister credit on one hand;but of course on the other hand we have to thank our good friends in Ottawa through DREE for providing the necessary funds for him. And I am not going to take any credit away from the minister. He appears to me, Mr. Chairman, to have a keen interest in his portfolio.

Ee is concerned and I am sure he has the desire to do what he thinks is best,but there are occasions and there are areas where I think a little more concentration and a little more action rather than sympathy,especially in the Fogo district,will certainly go a long way to enhancing the minister's reputation and his progressiveness in providing roads in this Province. good transportation So, Mr. Chairman, that is about all I have to say at this moment. I think we should get down to some of the headings where ~ve can deal with the item by item. I think that is the most effective way ~· 9:130

May 26,1977 Tape 3260 - Horning AH-2 CAPT. WINSOR: in my experience in this House. I think the most effective way to deal with the estimates is to go down item by item because when,for instance,we have five hours for the transportation estimate and if,for instance,there are twenty of us, ~pposition and private members~who will spend fifteen or twenty minutes speaking on the minister's salary,then we loose the effect and we do not get the information which we should be getting if we followed item by item. However, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to adding more to the debate when we get down item by item. MR..

WHITE: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAI~~: The hon.member for Lewisporte. MR.. HHITE: Hr. Chairman, I am going to speak in this estimate debate now because there are a couple of things I want to talk about and I am afraid that I will .not get the chance to talk about them later in the estimates.

I wanted to get a few things in on tourism the other night and I just could not get recognized, so I want to get in early and talk about a couple of points with respect to transportation and communications in the Province generally and more particularly in my own district because there are a couple of matters of grave concern to me,not particularly related to highways but in other areas as well,that I am sure the minister is aware of. I just want to say a brief thing with respect to the Trans­ Canada Highway upgrading programme, Mr. Chairman.

I think that the minister has had the legs cut out from under him w·ith respect to his negotiations with Ottawa by the member for St. John's West (Hr. Crosbie, ~~.P.). He are in a situation now where the federal government says that they have a fifty-fifty programme that they are willing to offer to the Province.That is obviously the negotiating point and the starting point for the federal government in terms of working out an agreed to formula for Trans-Canada upgrading in Ne~.rfoundland and in the other Atlantic provinces. The minister says that this Province is · -- 91.31.

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3261 Page 1 - ms Mr. White. prepared to go something along the order of ninety/ten. Yet this morning, early this morning on CBC, the member for St. John's West, Mr. Crosbie, was saying that the Province should agree to a seventy-five/twenty-five programme. So right of the bat he is almost cutting the legs out from under the minister in telling Ottawa that, you know, if they come up a bit, then we should expect the Province to come down a bit, and so we should expect the Province to come down a bit~ But I think that Mr.

Crosbie would be well-advised to keep in closer contact with his former colleagues if he is going to start negotiating and making points on behalf of the Province and on behalf of the people who live here because maybe we could get a good deal with Ottawa. "-~ R. MORGAN : Through negotiations. MR. WHITE: Yes, right. Mr. Chairman, the Trans-Canada Highway, and the condition of the Trans-Canada Highway in recent weeks has improved somewhat, and I think one of the big reasons ~vhy the Trans-Canada Highway got in the mess that it got in is because insufficient maintenance has been done over the years.

And I think this is a major criticism of the Department of Transportation and Communications that during the past number of years, the past four or five years, that insufficient maintenance has been done on the Trans-Canada Highway. And I have driven over the Trans-Canada Highway as much or more than anybody in this Chamber, and I know what the Trans-Canada Highway is like Winter and Summer, Fall and Spring. There are a few bad places, Mr. Chairman, that could have been fixed up earlier.

Well,,now it is a bit too late to talk about it because we are into a stage where we might get some money from Ottawa or we will get some money from Ottawa to upgrade that. And I say to the minister that in the same context he should bear in mind some of the secondary roads in this Province and the condition that some of those secondary roads -~ 9132

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3261 Page 2 - ms Mr. White. are getting into at the moment. I refer, Mr. Chairman, to the Notre Dame Junction Road that goes from the Trans-Canada Highway to Lewisporte, seven or eight miles of paved highway. It was built and finished paving in 1961. It has been there for sixteen years, and I do not think, Mr. Chairman, there has been a dollar spent on that road other than the installation of warning lights on the railway crossing on that particular road. MR. MORGAN: Since it was paved? MR. WHITE: Since it was paved.

There has not been anything done since it was paved, and that is sixteen years ago~ That road, Mr. Chairman, is one of the busiest highways in this Province, bar none, one of the busiest. The largest wholesale firm in Newfoundland is located in Lewisporte. It has a fleet of - oh, I do not know - dozens and dozens of heavy tnucks going over that road continuously. There are two more wholesale firms located in Lewisporte with heavy trucks.

All the trucks that come down from the mainland, the big tractor trailers that come across the Trans­ Canada Highway, with groceries and other products for Labrador, go into Lewisporte. Every single stain of gasoline that is used at Gander International Airport comes in through Lewisporte and is trucked into Gande~. It is a ridiculous state of affairs, Mr. Chairman, because that road is being torn to bits. And I am not sure - and I just had a letter from the minister this morning with respect to that - I am not sure that that road can stand another season without some major improvements being carried out.

It is in a state of disrepair, and I hope that the minister will come and take a look at it because it is getting worse and worse all the time. Normally,a paved highway in the Wintertime gets out of shape with frost, and then in the Spring and Summer comes back into place. It is not so with the Junction road. At the moment it is deteriorating faster and faster •.

Those huge oil tankers that did not use to operate out of Lewisporte - the gas for Gander used to go by train, but because of the increase in freight rates, the oil companies have now started to trttck all their oil or all thei't/~:fuel to Gnader for use there. And I am told by Mr. Lewington that the Gander ~· 91.33

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3261 Page 3 - ms Mr. White. Development Corporation, that the amount of fuel being · used at Gander International Airport has doubled in the past year. It is expected to triple in the next couple of years, and that puts an extra burden on the Junction Road because all those oil tankers will be coming over that road. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not complaining about the business for Lewisporte. I am not complaining about the oil business for Lewisporte or the gas business for Lewisporte.

I am just complaining about the condition of the Trans-Canada Highway, and I want to point out to the minister and to hon. members the importance of Lewisporte as a port, and the impoetance of that seven or eight miles of paved highway, because it is my feeling that it is one of the most ~ 9134

May 26, 1977 Tape 3262 PK - 1 Mr. White: important in the Province, and I do not know of another single secondary road in this Province that is used as much as the Junction Road going down to Lewisporte. The one going down to Botwood and that area is not used as extensively by such heavy traffic as the Junction Road, and I plead with the minister to take a serious look at that because it is not just making a decision on the basis of passenger cars or anything else.

It is making a decision on the basis of industry because Canadian National operating out of Lewisporte, Lewisporte Wholesalers, Steers- Limited, Blue Buoy Foods, Imperial Oil and Shell Oil all have their major bases in Lewisporte, and they are all of such a nature that they use trucks and tractor-trailers in their operations. So I would like to see something done about that. Mr. Chairman, there is another matter that I want to raise and I hope I get an answer from the minister, and that is the condition of the Change Islands ferry terminals.

Now it may not seem a very big issue to some hon. members that I am standing here talking about the -Change Islands ferry terminal \vhen only one or two of the people in this House has ever been to Change Islands, but it is a major issue, and, Mr. Chairman, I want to bring it to the floor because I feel that there is going to be a tragic accident sooner or later on Change Islands __ if something is not done. There is a new ferry operating between Change Islands and Cobb's Arm at the moment, and it is subsidized by the federal government,almost $100,000 a year, being subsidized by the federal government.

But there are no landing facilities, Mr. Chairman, for the ferry on Change Islands and no landing facilities, Mr. Chairman, for the ferry at Cobb's Arm. Now that might be hard to believe, but it is true, there are no landing facilities. It got so bad on Change Islands last year that the operator,Mr. Chappy,built his own dock spent his own money to build his own ferry dock. At Cobb's Arm on the other end of the tickle there is an old limestone quarry wharf there owned by the Department of Transportation and Communications -''9135

Xay 26, 1977 Tape 3262 PK - 2 Mr. White: that is falling down. The minister saw it. He knows what I am talking about. It is ~bsolutely ridiculous. I have seen film of it on the air, and I have seen pictures being taken, and I have been there a dozen times to look at it myself, and it is falling down. Some days the boat cannot even get in there at all, and unless something is done, and I mean done quickly, like within weeks, there is likely to be a tragic accident there. And it is a problem that I would say is the most important one now in relation to the other matters that I am dealing with. This certainly, Mr.

Chairman, is the most important matter. I am on the phone daily with the people on Change Islands, the people in Ottawa, the people in the Confederation Building in trying to get this matter straightened up. Mr. Chairman, some years ago,just to put the whole situation in context, a road was built from Change Islands to the South end of the Island, a distance of nine miles. The plan at the time was to build a new ferry terminal at the South end of Change Islands, as Mr.

Chairman knows full well, and build another one at Farewell which is away from Cobb's Arm, near Port Albert and Stoneville in my district,which would cut the ferry run in half. Now the Provincial Government built the nine miles of road across to the Island, and then they went and asked the federal government to put some terminals at the end of that road, and put another over at Farewell. Mr.

Chairman, I am told that Ottawa are prepared to b~ild the new ferrv terminal that we have been looking for, and they have been prepared to do this for two years, but they are refusing to build the terminal because the Province would not negotiate with Ottawa with respect to ferry operations. Now let me say, Mr. Chairman, I fully agree that ferry operations are the responsibility of the federal government. But that does not mean that the Province cannot enter in ·to some form of negotiations with Ottawa. All Ottawa are saying, at least from what I get from it, and I talked to the minister .:-91.36

~1ay 26, 1977 Tape 3~62 PK - 3 Mr. White: myself on two occasions about this problem, all Ottawa are saying is if the Provincial Gove~ent are going to build roads- ·and expect us to put ferry terminals on the end of those roads,then at least they should tell us in ad~ance· ~ and negotiate with us, and sit down and talk about it. And I say that part of the reason, and part of the blame, not all of the blame, but part of the blame for no ferry terminals on Change Islands at the ~oment, Mr. Chairman, is because .- 9137

Hay 26,1977 Tape 3263 - Morning AH-1 MR. WHITE: the provincial government has dug in its heels on this matter for ~vo or three years and now they are finally, finally - I had a letter yesterday from the minister - indicating that they are now prepared to enter into some form of negotiations with Ottawa. So I hope that this matter is straightened up quickly be~ause it is a matter of growing concern in the district that I represent and in other districts as well because there are a total of four or five ferry operations in this Province. It is a very important issue, Hr.

Chairman, and I want to emphasize it as much as possible. Hr. Chairman, there is only one other point that I want to make on this matter in this particular debate with respect to Transportation and Communications.and it is a matter that I brought up before in the House and I will bring it up again, and I want the minister to talk about it and that is with respe .ct to the use of helicopters by government ministers and other people associated with the administration. It is an abuse, Mr.

Chairman, it is an abuse of public funds,in my opinion,and I do not think the Minister of Transportation and Communications can do anything about it because he does not .have the authority. He does not have the authority to instruct other ministers not to use helicopters at will and other officials within the government not to operate helicopte~s at will. In the budget there is an expenditure allocated of $1.5 million for helicopter use this year from one company and another expenditure allocated for $390,000 this year for expenditure on helicopters. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I fully agree that ministers when they have to go to meetings fast should use an helicopter. Why not? If there is an emergency and they have to go somewhere,fine. But taking helicopters to visit offices that are within fifty or sixty miles of driving distance from the place they take the helicopter to - 91.38

Hay 26 , 19 77 Tape 3263 - Morning AH-2 MR. WHITE: go to_ taking helicopters to Grand Falls from Gander to do open iine programmes, ~1r. Chairman, I think it is a scandal and I think the ~finister of Transportation and Communications should do something about it and should put a halt to it because people are talking about it and people see it happening and people are getting really fed up and sick over the whole situation.

It is only a matter of, as I heard one Cabinet minister say to me the other day, "Helicopters are being used like taxi cabs~' And I bring that to the attention of the minister and I would like for him to tell us what the almost $2 million allocated in the budget this year for helicopter use, what it is for. Now I know that in some cases there will be emergencies and I would like to thank the minister now for sending helicopters down to Change Islands on a number of occasions to bring across people who have been stranded there. But, Mr.

Chairman, surely we do not have to see the kind of misuse of government aircraft in the future that we have seen in the last three or four or five years. And I hope the minister deals 'Y'ith this point. SOME HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon member for Burin-Placentia West. }!R. CANNING: A great district represented by a great man. AN HON MEt-IBER: Right. MR.CANNING: Mr. Chairman, since the minister rose in his seat I have been reminiscing quitely looking back over the years.

I remember when I came into this Rouse first there was one big demand, Th~ greatest demand, the thin g that was most discussed in my first campaign in my isolated district was roads. Mr. Chairman, I heard the word roads so often the first ten years representing my district that I was dreaming about roads, I had nightmares about roads.But anyway I was trying to open my few remarks paying tribute to the people of the past and a ·tribute even to the minister of today who is not listening to me,he is talking to his friends behind him. - 9139

~lay 26 ,1977 Tape 3263 - Morning AH-3 AN RON MEMBER: That is an advisor. MR. CANNING: He is going to hear some awful .things said to him perhaps before this debate is over but if he wants to hear something nice that I am going to say about him he should listen in the next few minutes. I have m:y words written~ I do not know if some parts of it are blasphemy but I copied from the words of one of our greatest statesmen that ever lived and he was referring to ~ h~dful of men who served in the Airforce, who saved London, saved England and probably saved the world. A handful of men.

Now I will say this with my experience and with what I can see today and what I have witnessed and what I have helped to do 5I hope,

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3264 EC - 1 MR. CANNING: in some

part is that never before in the history of road construction in North America did so few me~with so little equipment, with so little money, confronted with what appeared to be insurmountable terrain - cliffs, mountains, rivers, bogs; you name it, we have it - do so much to relieve so many from isolation is so short a time and give so many the convenience of paved and fairly good non-paved roads. That is my tribute to the men right up until today, and I am including the last five years in that. Mr. Chairman, it was the foremost thing ever!

A little village I went in on the mainland part of my district - it has been in the forefront ever since - I got more pleasure out of cutting a ribbon or watching someone cut a ribbon relieving forty families or twenty families or thirty families of isolation than I think I got in any accomplishment of the government of today. Above the Department of Highways - again down through the years we have had a good.~epartment, good men, and we have today.

One thing I did notice about the department that I am finding as I go along, go through the different departments and deal with the different departments~is this; that in the department those who have been the ministers - I think there are two or three of them - t~ey have kept the experienced men, the good men, they have kept them in the top positions and they have not brought in any greenhorns off the street whose contribution to the public of Newfoundland was knocking at doors and telling them how to vote.

It is like the minister said, he has good men~ they know Newfoundland, they have travelled, and one thing I could vouch for is that if the men who occupied that position before, if they were here today I think they would go further in the department and go in the field • And down through the years in my

section of the Province anyway, we have had some of the finest men that could be placed in a job looking after roads - trying to build roads, out all hours in the night under the worst of conditions, receiving the most criticism,I suppose, whatever criticism could be piled on by people who just did not understand the situation, the circumstances under which we were working and the great responsibility that -- 9141.

r1ay 26, 1977 Tape No. 3264 EC - 2 MR. CANNING: those men carried. From the minister to the deputy minister on to the foremen - the superintendents in the main areas of Newfoundland on to the foremen in particular areas, I think they carry the greatest responsibility perhaps of any men in this Province other than those who man ships and have crews, where they have to be pretty careful. They have lots of worries,- but I think they carry worry well,they put up with more abuse sometimes, more complaints.

And there is one thing about it, most places you go nearly everybody in the area, in the settlements or in the towns,is an authority on building roads~ an authority on how they should be salted, how they should be looked after and what-not. So with me I am sure the minister has found,and he is going to find as long as I am here,that I will co-operate with him, I will be reasonable with him. I am sure he knows that. I can give some examples-One example of a case I have had already - I hope I do not have any others.

It was an unfortunate one - but in any case, one morning after I was elected - it was a winter morning. I forget the time of the year, but anyway, there - - was sleet and the roads were frozen - a large trailer truck had an accident in a particular area in my district. It was five o'clock in the morning. The truck was manoeuvering a curved road~ ' -- 91.42

May 26, 1977 Tape 3265 PK - 1 Mr. Canning: and that could not be helped, fa ~ the people who buil~ that roa4 there was no other way for them to go only around high cliffs, 700 or 800 feet high .. as she was making a turn in the c_u_x:=ve, __ Ul:l,_~ort:_unately she s~id~ed and death took place. It was five o'clock in the morning.

I would say at three o'clock that morning the road was not slippery, but by_ five o'clock ~t ha~-q~ickly frozen- a little Sleet perhaps, or - ----- ---- even the damp air, bec~u~e my experience on the highway, and I have had as much as anybody, I think; I have passed my half million miles driving too and from my district from St. John's, I have had twenty- two cars in twenty-seven years, I can assure you I wore them all out, I travelled all hours of the night and day, in all seasons, so I think in that respect, in that regard I spoke as one with experience of driving over highroads and difficult roads. But, Mr.

Chairman, those-men had worked the day before, they probably had worked in the night on the highway; five o'clock in the morning, all of a sudden- it can happen in ten minutes on the highway; you can be driving along on even a starry night, a fine night over the Burin Highway or up the Trans-Canada Highway, the road can be good, it can be dry, and within ten minutes you do not need any rain, just a change in the atmosphere and the paved road suddenly is covered with ice that you cannot even see.

You have been going your own direction, you will not cast a reflection on the road, but you will realize it is slippery when somebody coming towards you, you can see the lights on the road.

Anyway that accident could not be avoided, it was not the fault of the Highways; and it is one of the things we have to deal with, people have to use their own common sense, and if a trailer truck or a car with private citizens or anybody else who is going to the Burin Peninsula or going to Port aux Basques, and he gets out in the middle of the night, goes over the road, well we just could not have salt trucks and salt spread instantaneously, in one moment, over the whole highway.

But when I hear those criticisms.-·- you will read them in the papers, you hear them on the air, sometimes coming from politicians- my sympathy is with those people who are responsible. -- 91.43

May 26, 1977 Tape 3265 PK - 2 Mr. Canning: Mr. Chairman, I would like to be able to say that I had something done to the roads in the past year or year and a half, or however long I am .back representing the district, but I had next to not~ing. But I have not lost hope. I have travelled with the minister over the · highways, over most of them, I did not travel with him owing to the circumstances - of th~ d~y ~hat he knows of. he is famili-a-r. with. I have not made on pressure on him. just telling him the I situation. I realize the financial situation of the Province, and I know what can be done in a year.

But this year I am looking forward to at least some improvement, when I get that nice bridge I · have joined up to the road, and a little pavement perhaps. But, Mr. Chairman, there is one other thing. Last year I had the pleasure of driving in England. I possibly covered a thousand miles or more in England, the South of England, Central, and in a part of Scotland, and I could not help in comparing the roads, and the situation, and the attitude of the people with ourselves. Mr. Chairman, one of the first bits of pavement in my district was between Marystown and the hospital in Burin.

And there was a fairly good road built, of fairly good standard~ t>velve miles of road. There were very few curves in ~t, a job well done. But before the road had been built I would say about six weeks or eight weeks, two months, we had three accidents on a curve. Of course, when you get three or you get four and you ge_t complaints, well you wonder what is wrong.

So I went to that particular area, I drove perhaps a half a dozen times up and down the road to see why would I have an accident, I came to the conclusion that if I drove the speed limit, and kept my eyes open, kept hold of the wheel, knew how to drive, I could not have an accident, it~ impossible to have an accident unless something mechanical happens to the car. Mr. Chairman, in England you have fairly good highways, what you would call your main highway, then you have country roads and you have farm roads. Going down to the farming

section it is a winding, narrow road - they use small cars, of course - but anyway •9144

May 26, 1977 Mr. Canning. Tape no. 3266 Page it is very difficult to navigate, to maneuver. But when the 1 - ms people come to a road like that , they realize it is a farm road with curves in it and the sign says, Twenty miles an hour, so they drive twenty miles an hour. And people have tried that out, I guess, engineers, or drivers and says, Well, this is the speed you can drive at. Mr. Chairman, we have places like Monkstown where we are going into now.

If we have a road down there, and the minister came to me tomorrow and said, Look, there are only twenty families down there; we are not certain that they are going to stay there; they have been leaving slowly, I am going to complete that road, that last five miles of that road or the whole twelve or• fourteen miles of that road. We have to put an awful lot of curves in it, because it is going to cost millions. There are only twenty-five families there.

And he says to me, Look, sections of that I will build for your people, I will build for your constituents there, but I have to put a sign up on it, fifteen miles.in certain areas, perhaps thirty miles, perhaps forty miles is the only sign he can put on it. By the way~what he has built now he would be able to put sixty miles on it. I think they did wrong. They started off with a high standard road. If it is ever finished, it is· going to cost $3 million or $4 million for twenty-five families. Well, that is just out of all proporitions to our economics.

And then after he put the fifteen miles up , it was up to the people - fifteen miles an hour. If they do not obey, they are going to kill themselves. They are just breaking the law and disobeying it, and in the circumstances it cannot be avoided by the government. And it is the only settlement that it is possible to get into in my district now, the only one left. It was the only one left when I was defeated.Allof thirt~en, fourteen or fifteen branch roads that I had built at my request were built to relieve isolation. And I am hoping that the - I do not know.

I think that the minister has already said this year that he does not expect to get on with it. But what I am hoping now with the attitude of the government is this,when they condemn our relocation that we should build roads. It was cheaper to build

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3266 Page 2 - ms _!Ir. Canning. roads to them than move them. I do not agree with that. It is wrong. It is definitely wrong from many aspects. But now· that they are there, and it is the policy of the government not to move people, I think those people have got every right to demand - and I have the right here as a representative - to demand that that road will be completed especially when there has been so much money spent on it. So I am hoping that even if it is only twelve miles, and if you got to slow down for a half a dozen minutes, what of it?

If we can relieve isolation, if you do have to go twenty miles an hour that is far better than.waiting a week for a boat to get into that settlement. So my remarks would be: The people should be more reasonable, their attitude towards the people who work on the road, what we can do, because I really think that everything possible has been done. I think practically everything possible has been done in my district in the last five years. I have no complaint except that I think that some that were started, they were started too big, they were started in a hurry. Some pavement was done during the wrong time.

I would rather get it the first year after I am elected, I would like to see some pavement in mine,not the last year, because sometimes the pressure is brought on the politician who wants to get in. The pressure is brought on the party of the day. And being human beings, human nature being what it is, we are compelled sometimes to throw pavement at a road a few weeks before the election. And then, of course, for the next three or four years, the people are down your back when that pavement starts to fly up in your face, and you really get no~here only those fe<:v votes you think you got by paving a road. Mr.

Chairman, I look forward to improvements of the roads in my district. We owe a great deal of credit to the federal member of our district for having the Burin Peninsula paved in the first place. It would never have been paved without the help from Ottawa, and we surely appreciate it. And I think that mini~ter has certainly - 91.46

lfAY 26, 1977 Tape no. 3266 Page 3 - ms Mr. Canning. helped a lot of Newfoundland. I know his influence, his reasoning, and I imagine he is something like myself. He has sense enough to know that only so much mcmey can go so far. And I think that all Newfoundland owes Don Jamieson a good thank you for the way he is representing us in Ottawa, and I hope that those who are on the opposite side do not carry on like they say the member forSt- John's West is carryin~ on today, -· 9147

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3267 EC - 1 MR. CANNING: But I hope we are_ all reasonable and of · a proper approach. And that is the feeling that I have here now as I conclude my remarks~that I am going to co-operate with the department in every possible way. I am not going to look for anything unreasonable. If there is something - somebody blames a person for something 'somebody's death or something in the district, that I know , well;· that people caused by their own carelessness, I am not - - . going to come _down 9n the department. I do not think you make any politics by doing that anyway.

I think if you take the right stand most people are reasonab~e , and people will understand. I look forward to some improvement this year with a few small items I have asked for and I think we will get along well enough for that, but if there is any neglect I will be the first to criticize, but I guarantee the House, I guarantee the minister it will not be unreasonable when I do criticize. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. member for Eagle River. MR.

STRACHAN: - of the two major problems that I would like to get into, the first one is, of course, the problem that we have no highways at all on the Labrador coast and never could expect, in many cases, highways on the Labrador coast. And so we use the airways .. which virtually are our highways and as such. As the minister well knows, our major problem on the Labrador coast as far as transportation is concerned is the building of airstrips on the coast.

This must be one of the few provinces which does not have an agreement with the federal government on a cost sharing arrangement for the building of airstrips in remote areas, especially in northern areas. There are quite a lot of studies out now with airport plans for the Northwest Territories and arctic Quebec and northern areas of Manitoba and Alberta, and yet there is no formal agreement.

And by stating this I am certainly not laying that blame at the minister's feet whatsoever. - I think it is in the recent year.,--- year and a half the minister has been doing a considerable amount of work trying to get Ottawa to come around to formulating an agreement on airstrips with this Province. I think probably,previous to that,

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3267 EC - 2 MR. STRACHAN: previous to the minister's work on this there was very 1ittle attempt~really,I think by any previous ministers in the department to really formalize this kind of_thing. And so I commend the minister a great deal for the attempt to try and formalize a programme for airstrip construction. It astonishes me that the airstrips which were built in this Province were often built in areas which were connected by road. But as the real needs of the people who could not - MR.- PECKFORD: They were built along the highway. MR. STRACHAN: Pardon? MR.

PECKFORD: They were built along the high~·?ay. MR. STRACHAN: Yes. And the real needs of people who wanted airstrips~ people who could not travel whatsoever,were never looked after in that case because they were either very isolated~ geographically isolated or very far removed from any political centre. 1 so therefore~,they could not apply any pressure and assess their priorities. The airstrips that we are talking about are absolutely essential 7 as one realizes.

In the last year or so Labrador Airways~who fly us all the time, after many years and many, many miles of carrying passengers without any accident whatosever - and by accident I mean fatality, because in bush'planes there are continual accidents all the time:· the gear gives way and the skis during the winter., bad ice or ballycaters, or during the summer the floats often give trouble. And as long as you are flying in single engine 'planes there is nothing else you can do. In summer they overheat and one has to cut back on the load and you run into a great deal of problems.

I should commend here very much, because they are much maligned" I should commend here the bush pilots in Labrador such as Ian Massey and Joe Gibbons and Mike Burns who are tremendous bush pilots, some of the best bush pilots in Canada. And I think the member from Naskaupi would agree with me here. When you are flying single engine 'planes at 500 feet and thick fog with low cloud, trying to find a community a hundred miles away, and one has to dodge over Eskers and try to recognize Eskers for a hundred miles and so on, they · 9149

May 26, 1977 Tape No. 3267 EC - 3 MR. STRACHAN: I are extremely courageous and extremely capable pilots. And I would fly, as the minister knows - he spent some time last year, that time with a young pilot and a Beaver - and as he knows it is a big country and a long country and a country in which if anything happens is up to the pilot's resource. So I commend them tremendously. I think they are much maligned and pressed.

I think there has been a fair crit.ic:ism of them, some of it rightly so and some of it justified, but I think that often in a case some of the criticism has been levied at them - people who are doing an excellent job - it has been totally wrong. The problem is that as long as we have to go by single engine 'plane - that is float 'plane or ski 'plane - we cannot do any better than the present service that we have. If you are flying bush 'planes there is no high-grade luxury bush 'plane.

The Otter aircraft, the Otter DeHavilland aircraft, many of which we fly, are over twenty years old, thirty years old, In fact, one of them,is a 1948 Otter which we are still flying on the coast. And as long as we have to rely on this kind of single engine bush 'plane, the Otter is the best bush 'plane, the most economical in the world. It has been proven. It is a design which came from the 1930's.

But what is happening there now is that the number of passeng~rs travelling, the amount of people travelling are quite considerable, quite amazingly so, and now we are needing to get into more comfortable 'planes,safer 'planes, because the single engine 'plane only allows you, of course, one failure, one blown ' I cylinder, whatever it is,and we are supposed to have a mile gliding for every thousand feet if the engine goes. And I have been down three times now, totally.In the time that I have been flying- seven years- I have been down three times with loss of engine. Q1~--o 4.)1. u

May 26, 1977 Tape 3268 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: And it is not exactly a pleasant experience for people who are not custom to flying, it is not a pleasant experience to be flying along and all of a sudden there is no sound, and one has no engine left, and you start looking for a pond or a flat piece of ice or snow on which to land.

But I state that unless we have these airstrips, and these airstrips can give us then our twin-engine planes, the twin Otter for instance, which has opened up the North, opened up the Northwest Territorities, and the whole North has been opened up with this one plane, this twin~engine Otter, and unless we have airstrips we cannot handle the twin engine Otter.

The twin engine Otter by the time it -puts floats on-the floats cost about $135,000 to prepare a float for them- by the time you put the floats on you cut your pay load right back down by five people 1 And you also run into real problems in the Winter with skies, because they have a nose ski, and often the nose ski takes such a beating on landing that the nose ski damages, and of course the plane is out of order. So the only way that we can do it is to go through the airstrip programme.

Now there has been a lot of talk and a lot of announcements about airstrip programmes, and of course as the minister knows the airstrip programme is not a definite announcement made by Ottawa, and all they did was a study by MOT to decide on the areas where the airstrips should be built. I think there are some things 'tvrong with that study. I think the study requires thirteen airstrips on the Labrador Coast.

But I think the assessment of priority is wrong, because I feel that in some of the communities -it is virtually impossible to build airstrips, and the cost to build an airstrip in some of the communities, for instance, would cost many millions of dollars. As the minister knows, he flew over a great deal of communities last Summer~ and as he knows in some of these communities ~t would cost something like $3 million or $4 million or $5 million to build an airstrip in some of these, often very far removed -- 9151

May 26, 1977 Tape 3268 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: from a community for a connnunity of one hundred people. Now as much as one hundred people require an airstrip, I think that is something that should be done in line, there should be a first tier of airstrips, and then a second tier.

And my suggestion has always been that Nain, Makkovik, Cartwright and Mary's Harbour should be selected immediately as a crash programme to give us these airstrips so we can have twin-engine planes, and a feeder service onto places like Fox Harbour, for Mary's Harbour for instance, to Henley Harbour, all around to Cape Charles and Large Bay, that one could use our feeder system . because these communities are far easier reached and far easier to handle by bush plane. So with the result that your twin Otter would take passengers from Goose Bay, for instance, or St.

Anthony into Mary's Harbour, and if they were going on to Henley Harbour or across the, nine miles to Fox Harbour, then they would transfer onto a feeder plane or on a bush and travel the nine miles which is virtually only ten minutes away. But to spend $2 million or $3 million,which it would probably cost in Fox Harbour to build an airstrip there - HR. PFCKFORD: I do not see some rJf those airstrip locations either. MR. STRACHAN: That is right. You agree with my point.

Well I think if you spent - Fox Harbour is nine miles or ten miles, a few miles across from Mary's Harbour~to go and spend $3 million or $4 million or $5 million in Fox Harbour for virtually 300 people or 200 people, who could be fed from an excellent airstrip, an· excellent airport at Mary's Harbour, one in which you could have beacons, proper service, a very safe· IFR landing, because it is very seldom you can come in to Mary's Harbour and land by IFR and you can not get across to Fox Harbour by a bush plane.

So I think there should be these four airstrips set as a priority, and then the other ones fed by these feeder planes I am talking about, and then later on as we progress we get into other airstrips. But to come up with this glorious plan of thirteen - 91.52

May 26, 1977 Tape 3268 PK - 3 Mr. Strachan: airstrips is wonderful. We want it tomorrow. We wanted it last year. But I know fulr well that there is no money going to come for thirteen airstrips all in one bang like that. And to try and dilute the programme will cost I think many years waiting for these airstrips to come about. So I feel very strongly on this, that there should be a push on. I also feel strongly that we need these airstrips now. I think safety is important. We need these airstrips now, and I think it is important that these airstrips need not be paved initially.

Now I realize the problems that we run into in Cartwright, but I think in some other ones they need not be paved initially. Now I hate suggesting that, because sometimes it means that you get an airstrip which is a gravel airstrip, and you will never get it paved. But I think initially a twin Otter with ballon tires can land in many of these gravel strips very easily, and I think the paving of them should be a programme put off down to the next year of the year after that on this programme, but not to take $4 million or $3 million and put it all into - 91.53

May 26,1977 Tape 3269 - Morning AH-1 HR. STRACHAN: one airstrip and pave it I think is totally ~vrong. I think that it should be the gravel airstrips in these four key centers and then slowly improve the service as it goes along. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is how most of them were done on this Island. Deer Lake, Frenchmans Harbour - MR. STRACHAN: Yes, yes absolutely. MR. SMALLHOOD: All of these. MR. STRACHAN: But the programme that they have is affecting airstrips and I think is a very wrong way of doing it.

It might be interesting to know that the airstrips in Springdale and various other places -we are still looking for some. But I hope that the minister will tell me - he mentioned something about $24 million for airport construction or airport capital works and so on and I hope that he can, in standing up in response to me,make a reasonable announcement if he is going to start some work in these three communities which are left, Nain, Makl:ovik and Marys Harbour so that we can have that.

Secondly,it is important because the air carrier cannot on a twin engine Otter, he cannot make it pay unless he has these airstrips, these four strips at least. He cannot make it pay. There is no way in the tvorld that he can fund an operation like that,be it Gander Aviation or Labrador Airways or wherever it is. They cannot make it pay unless they have these airstrips. A twin-engine Otter, we are going to try it this year on floats, but a tl.:rin engine Otter on floats and on skis will never make a successful run and we require these strips immediately.

The other point I would like to raise to the minister - it is off from airstrips-Ls the fact that the communities on the coast and isolated areas, many of them have roads around the communities, but some of them do not have roads. In the case of Fox Harbour, i .t does not have a road around the community,and I have oentioned this a number of times that children being taken to school in the Fall wearing life jackets over the top of oilskins and so on, · 9154

May 26,1977 Tape 3269 AH-2 MR. STRACHAN: taken by boat to school and in this day and a~ " T feel that that should be done and I thiri.k that the minis ·ter has made a commitment to that effect and as soon as the equipment is finished in Rigolet it will go to Fax Harbour. However,! am concerned that the equipment may be too small to ·build a road around Fox Harbour because there is that hill at the other side. and it may require fairly heavy equipment. The minister is familiar with it·.we went in there last year and had a look at it so I expect that maybe he might mention one or two things on that.

The real problem is that the communities have no tax base. The communities have no industry as such to tax and with the result that the amount of money, the grants and so on that they get from Municipal Affairs does not help them greatly to upgrade their roads and to work on their roads. It is an assistance 9 it is a help • There is the ( agreement, the sixty-forty agreement that we talked about,in which there will be assistance given if the community can raise the forty per cent ,but then in the Labrador coastal communities very, very few of them, I do not think any of them,could ever raise that forty per cent.

And so with the result I think that we have been talking about this, both the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Transportation,and I hope that over the next couple of weeks we can try to come up with some settlement on that when we get together and get a settlement on this so that the communities can upgrade their roads and can have decent roads. The road in Cartwright is abominable, it is shocking. The people there are almost refusing to licence their vehicles and so on because they feel they do not want to pay for the licencing when they have a road over which they cannot travel.

And they feel that money should be spent to upgrade these roads and I think that .: 91.55

May 26.1977 Tape 3269 - Morning AH- 3 'HR. STRACHAN: this should be taken in a programme. I think that in some cases the communities are little - on the Labrador coast at the moment and it has been for some years now, it is a very emotional place and people jump on the bandwagon and people get very loud and often criticize without even, for instance, writing letters or asking,and I am sure that many of the communities who have taken a slice off the minister's back are communities who when you l~ok at the records have not produced one letter or one request in the minister's files asking him for money. -- 91.56

May 26, 1977 Tape no. 3270 Page 1 - ms Mr. Strachan. And I agree with the minister and I would state that quite bluntly that many of the communities that are shouting the loudest are the communities that will not do their homework as councils and will not sit down and even prepare a simple letter asking or requesting funds. And I have been as equally ~oiceferous in my statements to them in defense of this kind of action of the minister as other people have. So I understand the pressures and so on that are placed. For ins~ance, last year we had a problem with Cartwright . and _national radio.

And I feel verv strongly that Cartwright w:as _talking about the problems on _national radio without even talking to the minister about it or without even sending a letter asking for funds, even waiting for a refusal to come from the minister. They started shouting about the refusal to spend money without even asking for the money in the first place. And I think that somehow or other people have got to be told bluntly and straightforwardly that this kind of attitude and so on will get them nowhere, that they have got to co­ operate to a certain extent.

And if they feel after they have tried their part that they are getting nowhere, then, fine, open up if you wish to. But you have got to go through channels first and attempt it first. I would think that these are the two main points. I certainly feel strongly about the airstrip business that I mentioned. I hope that the minister can make some reasonable announcement. It is disastrous. It is terrible. I, for instance, have been in this House since Easter. I have not seen my wife or my daughter since Easter.

And the pure problem is that I can get to Goose Bay on a ,Friday, but I cannot promise to get into Nain on a Saturday or ·a Sunday or a Monday or a Tuesday or a Wednesday. And even if I did get in,