Time: 2:3 0 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Thursday, 28 February 1980 OP ENING PRA YER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER , Hon. Harry E. Gr aham (Bi rtle -Russell): Pr esenti ng Pe ti tions •• Readi ng and Recei ving Pet i tions .•• Pr esenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MINISTER IAL STATEMENTS AND TABL ING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thomp;on): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annu al Report of the Manitoba Labour Management Rev iew Committee for the year endi ng December 31 , 1979. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affai rs. HON. NORM A PR ICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation for the year endi ng March 31 , 197 9. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annu al Report of the Pensi on Commission of Manitoba for the period endi ng Ja nuary 1, 197 9, to October 31, 197 9. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Attor ney-General. HON. GERAL D W. J. MERCIER (O sborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 56 th An nual report of the Liquor Control Commission.

INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Noti ces of Motion ••• Introdu ction of Bi lls. Before we proceed with the Oral Question period, I'd like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery on my left, where we have 40 students of Gr ade VI standing from Ryerson School, under the di re ction of Mrs. Pe nty. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. We also have 40 adults from the New Horizon Adult Club from the Steinbach/Ni ver ville area. This group is from the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport.

On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this after noon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHRO EDER: Yes, I have a question for the Attor ney-General. Could the Att orney-Gen eral confirm that the court party in Hong Kong to which I yest erday made reference found no witnesses available to it on its first day of heari ngs, and it was required to adjourn, notwithstanding the fact that there had been a police officer from Manitoba in Hong Kong for several weeks prior to the opening of the heari ngs, as an adVance per son? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable At torney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, as I explained to the Member for Rossmere yesterday, this matter will be heard in court next week. The Crown Attorney in charge is hoping that this matter can be brought on one week from today, and at that time, as I in dicated yesterday, a full explanation of this matter will be made to the court, to the accused, to the counsel for the accused. If subsequent to that court heari ng the Member for Rossmere has any further questions, Mr.

Speaker, I would only be too glad to attempt to answer same, but until the matter is dea lt with in court I would prefer not to deal with the matter here. - 13 9 -

Thursday, 28 Fe bruary 1980 MR. SCHRO EDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would point out that the questions I am asking have nothing to do with the final decision of the court. They deal with adm inistrative matters, and therefore I would also ask the Minister to confirm that the court party was asked to leave the High Commissioner's Office •.. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that there has been a reques t made fr om the Attorney-Gen eral on this particular matter.

While the member is perfectly free to ask whatever questions he wants, he must als o understand that he doesn't necessarily have to receive an answer fr om any Minister. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that I may not receive an answe r. However , I would suggest that this is an area where the Minister can reply in view of the fact there was a report in the newspaper today indicating that a full report had been made to the Minister.

Therefor e, I ask the Minister, could he confirm that the court party was asked to leave the High Commissioner's Office after several days, and that thereupo n the Ja pan Room of the Hong Kong Hilton was rented at some $1, 000 per day as a meeting place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PA WLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the question by the Honourable Member for Rossmere. Wi ll the Attor ney-General be making available a report to this Assembly based upon the information and report that will be made available to him as a re sult of this escapade in Hong Kong? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attor ney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would have thought the former Attor ney- General of this province would have had more res pect for a court party than he has indicate d in his comments , but I think that is indicative of the manner in which perh aps his party did and still does treat the administration of justice in this province. Mr. Speaker, I will certainly be prepared to answer questions more fully after this matter is heard in court. It is before the court, and should be dealt with there first before it is dealt with here. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere.

MR. SCHROED ER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister confirm that there were only a total of nine witnesses called in this hearing, although there was a court party of eleven which went to Hong Kong? MR. SPEAKER: Or der, order please. I have to rule the question out of order. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Mr. Speaker, would you kindly elaborate on what point of order you ruled the question out, since the member was asking adm inistrative things, not judicial things. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

It has been indicated to me through the Attorney- General that the matter is before the courts and will be dealt with next week. I would suggest the questions dealing with that should be left so that there is no possibility of undue influence being placed on the court and its dir ection. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I am not asking any questions with res pect to what happened inside any courtroom. I am asking questions of an administrative nature.

There is a court hearing which was held in Hong Kong as opposed to Winnipeg, and the question that I asked dealt with that administrative area. And I repeat, I would like the Attorney-General to confirm that there were only nine witnesses called in Hong Kong, wher eas there was a court party of eleven, including two prosecutors, who went fr om Winnipeg to Hong Kong. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Attor ney-Ge neral. - 14 0 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate the Member for Rossmere, as a former employee of the Attorney -Genera l's Department, as a student with that department hire d by the former Attor ney -General and Leader of the Opposition, probably does not understand, Mr. Speaker, the concept of subjudice. The Commission evidence that was taken in Hong Kong pursuant to charges laid in the city of Winnipeg is a matter before the courts, the taking of evidence that was done there is a matter that is still before the courts and will be dealt with next week, Mr. Speaker.

After that, if there are any further questions, I will be pleased to attempt to deal with same. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. GARY FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the Honourable Minister of Ener gy and Mines if there is any additional information on the potential interruption of gas supplies to Manitobans as a result of the rupture of the gas pipeline in Alberta yest erday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fina nce. HON. DONA LD W. CRA IK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for River Heights for his question on this important matter.

The information that we have is that the tern porary patch or additi ons by-pass to the line has been essentially corn pleted and they expect that the supply will be at full capacity by midnight tonight, and therefore there will be no further interrup tions on the interruptible following that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. Order s of the Day. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Attor ney-General. Would the Minister consider supplying the House with a list of re gulations and guidelines as to who qualifies for legal aid?

I rais e this concern because of a report in the Fr ee Pr ess that a Mr. John Clay and a Mr. Richard Thiessen signed a corporate contract in the Legal Aid office for $2 5, 000 a month payments, and I wonder if this type of individual, who runs a massage parlour, deserves legal aid. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attor ney-Ge neral. MR. MERCIER: With respect to that matter , Mr . Speaker, I have received information that would indicate the Legal Aid lawyer involved in that matter was a relative of one of the parties to the contract.

There was no Legal Aid ce rtificate issued , but becaus e of her relation ship with the family, assisted in giving le gal adVice with respect to that matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHRO EDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Attor ney -General, I thank you for your comments with respect to my student day s in the Attor ney -Genera l's Department. I would indicate, Mr. Speaker, that at that time we had one prosecutor pr osecuting one offence.

The question I have for the Minister is, can he confirm that the total cost of this escapade in Hong Kong has been more than $3 00,000 to the taxpayers of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attor ney -General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I do not have the precise figure. I will be getting that figur e. I can assure the Member for Rossmere that the parties involved were adVised that the accounts would be scrutinized in the normal clos e way, but that his comment is typical of the exagger ations of comments of the other side.

It is at leas t 1, 000 - pardon me, my mathematics is not that good - but that figure of $3 00,000 is such a gross exagge ration of the actual costs involved , it is unbelievable and typical of the manner in which members on the other side fish and attempt to create perceptions that are totally inaccurate, Mr. Speaker. MR. SCHRO EDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Attor ney -Gen eral, I thank him for answering the last question. Possibly he will now answer my next one. Is it true that there were fi ve lawyers se nt to Hong Kong, including three defence lawyer s, two prosecutors and •.• - 14 1 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. May I suggest to the honourable member that he heed the advice given to him by the Honourable Attor ney-General and wait until the matter is handled by the courts before he continues in that line of questioning. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PA WLEY : Mr. Speaker, are we to believe that you have ruled the last question by the Honourable Member for Rossmere out of order? MR. SPEAKER: To the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, I have suggested to the honourable member that he follow the advice of the Honourable Attor ney-General.

The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, through you to the Attor ney-Ge neral. Agai n, I thank the Attor ney-General for answe ring some of the questions. I don't under stand why some of the questions about this activity are subjuaice and he is not prepared to answer them, while other s are not; and ther efor e I would ask him to answe r the question with respect to the size of the court party and ••• MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. May I suggest to the honourable member that he cannot ask the Ministe r to answer.

He can ask his question, and whether or not the Minister answers or not is a diff erent matter. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHRO EDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister confirm that the court party which left Winnipeg for Hong Kong included one judge, one court reporter, two prosecutors, three defence lawyers, three aefend ants and at least one police officer and a member of the Department of Immi gration? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I can confirm that the court party which travelled to Hong Kong was at leas t one-half the number of witnesses that would have been required to bring to Winnipeg in order to take the Commission evidence ordered by the court. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Elmwood asked a question ye ster day that I should attempt to clarify. In his question, he is asking why the major issue, why the gas connectors that were determined to be condemned in 196 1 were not dealt with until 197 8. The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, the gas connectors were never condemned. So I thought for his enlightenment I should spell out that that particular term should not be applied to the situation in 196 1. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St • .Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJAR DI NS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the House Leader. We have had a division of the former Department of Health and Social Deve lopment or Community Service s. I wonder if the Ministe r could see that we get a clear definition of the responsibilities of the former department.

I say a detailed information, that is, if they could appear, all the responsibilities, as they did last year in the Estimates , and list them under the two diff erent departme nts, it would be quite helpful. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Lea de r. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, rn take that question as notice and consult with the Ministers involved in their res pective departmen ts. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if there' s a need to take it as notice; I think he could take the time maybe to prepare, but I think we'r e entitled to this information. Mr.

Speaker, rd like to ask the same Minister another question - especially that I can't dir ect my questions to you, Mr. Speaker. Is it the intention of the government to start a new tradition here, that is, that somebody who serv es as Le gislative Assistant to a Minister, is going to start asking questions of that Ministe r, when he shares the information? Becaus e - 14 2 -

Thursaay, 28 February 1980 this is what my honourable frien d from -{Interjection)- why not? This is going to be great - Mr . Speaker, this is not correct. The Legislative Assistant of a cer tain Minister never asked any questions of his Minister; the information is in the office ana it certainl y coula be shared. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I suppose the purpose of asking questions in the Le gislature from any member is to se ek information, se ek the truth. Some are obviously better equipped to do that. MR. Dl'SJAR DINS: Mr.

Speaker, if it's a question of tru th, well then of course we'll waive all our objections, provid ing you start giving the truth in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LY ON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, in oraer to assist you in responding to the face tious question put by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, perh aps I could re mind him that every member in this House, re gardless of where he sits in this House , is enti tled to put questions at Question Pe riod, and that practice will be followed by this government or by any other government. That's No. 1. No. 2, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps my honourable frien d from St. Boniface would like to remina you of the fact that when they graced this siae of the House, one of their members who was the appointee to the Manitoba Hyd ro Boara was consistently asking questions of the First Minister, who was the Minister in charge of Manitoba Hydro •. Did anyone take objection to that? MR. Dl'SJAR DINS: Mr. Speaker, there is no aoubt that any me mber can ask questions.

But ce rtainly the traaition, the Question Pe rioa has been to give a chance - there's a limit on the Question Pe riod, ana this is to give the chance to the opposition to ask questions of the government. That's the only chance that we have. And when you have some body that sits in the same office, that has to come here and ask questions, you certainl y can ask yourself if the questions are se rious, or if there's another motive, Mr. Speaker. An a then, when we were in office, Mr. Speaker, if somebody from Hyd ro is not an executive --(Inter jection)- I was asked to rem ind the Speaker, and I'm re minding him.

I was asked by your honourable fr iend there, to remind the Speaker, and this is what I am doing, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. Or der please. I want to thank the Honourable Member for St. Boniface for his adVice. I now recognize the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUN E Wl'STBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is add ressed to the Minister of Health. I wonder when we can expect an announcement from the Minister concerning the appointment of a Deputy Minister ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garr y): When the government takes that deci sion, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Branaon East. MR. LEON ARD S. EVAN S: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In keeping with the policy of open govern ment refer red to by the Honourable Minister of Finance the other day, I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Co-Operative Development respecting the bids maae for the purchase of McKen zie Seeds last summer. Wi ll the Honourable Minister of Co-Qperative Development table the bids that were submitted for the purchase of McKenzie Seeds last summer, those same bids having been subsequently rejected? MR. SPEAKER: Or der please.

May I suggest to the Honourable Member for Brandon East that information such as that may better be answered by form of Oraer for Return . The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVAN S: We ll, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable minister woula indicate yes or no, we could proceed fr om there. I am quite prepared to submit an Or der for Return ana accommodate us that way. That would be fine . - 14 3 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Co-operative Deve lopment could aavise the House specifically what adva ntages does Bohmer Box Limited , of Ontario, bring to the McKenzie Seeds operation - a small Ontario company, unknown, pr obably a smaller mercha ndising operation than McKenzie Seeds itself has. What specific aavantages are there to McKenzie Seeds to have a very tiny unknown company come in and �anage and operate McKenzie's. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BA NMAN (La Vere ndr ye): Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the questi_on from the Me mber for Brandon East, as I ment ioned ye sterday, I don't think it will se rve the best inte rests of McKenzie Seeds if this particular matter de aling with different proposals is deal t with in the public, just as it wasn 't de alt with by the Member for Brandon East when he was Minister in charge of it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leade r of the Opposition. MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister responsible for Co-operative Development.

Can the Minister advis e whether or not Bohmer Box has been adVised as to the rejection of their offer pertaining to the purchase of McKenzie Seeds ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Deve lopment. MR. BA NMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I should fu rther point out that we are in the process still of looking at different proposals, and should there be something that could enhance this company and create more jobs in Brandon, that's what we want to do. MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Co-operative Dev elopment then, in view of his response that discussions are apparently still under way with Bohmer Box, advis e whether or not any equivalent opportunity is going to be provided to the employee s of McKenzie Seed, who also bid last summer in respect to the purchase of McKenzie Seed , as he is prepare d to undertake for Bohmer Box of Ontario? MR. BA NMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the question fr om the Leader of the Opposition, I guess one of the biggest problems that the gentlemen opposite have is that they don't realize that this company is a straight marketing company and requires certain tech niques and mar keting expert ise to be brought in to make it more viable in Br andon. I have said yes ter d ay, and I have said in the paper, and the chairman of the board has indicated a number of times, that we are looking for people to come for ward with proposals. We will look at those proposals and weigh them. MR. PA WLEY: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Co-operative Dev elopment, can the Minister advis e as to whether or not he has undertaken any enquiries pe rtaining to the bid by the employees to ascertain whether or not they would introdUce some new mar keting techniques to McKenzie Seed. MR. BA NMAN: We ll, Mr. Speaker, as I mentione d yes terday, if they are intere sted and have some revolutionary new ways in which they feel they can turn the company around without addi ng any other product lines, let them come forward with a proposal.

But I would point out to the Minister that the corn pany is facing se rious marketin g problems, and the loss this yea r will exceed $1 million, so there will have to be sought ways and means to try and streng then this company to ensure its operation in Brandon. MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister. Is he then indicating and can he confirm that Bohmer Box has proposed to him some revolutionary new marketing tech niques insofar as McKenzie Seeds are concer ned? MR. BA NMAN: We ll, Mr.

Speaker, if there are a group of individual s , whether it be Bohmer Box or somebody els e, that is inte re sted in making sur e that this company stays in Brandon and can provide ex panded job opportunities and not cost the taxpayer of Manitoba $1 million to operate every year, definitely I think it is in the best intere sts of the people of Manitoba to try and find somebody like that. - 144 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 MR. PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister. He refers to individuals ensuring that McKenzie Seeds rema ins in Brandon. I would like specifically indication from him as to what undertakings, what effort, are under way on his part to ensure that McKenzie Seeds rema ins in Brandon, owned by the people of the Pr ovince of Manitoba rather than being exported outside the province of Manitoba to Ontari o or elsewhere. MR. BA NMAN: Mr.

Speaker, there seems to be a indication here that regardle ss of the cost to the province of Manitoba, the previ ous administration kept all the companies flourishing. I would point out to the Leader of the Opposition, what happened to Everg reen Peat Moss when you owned it? Some of the employees didn't get paid until a year later when you closed it down. What happened to William Clare? Mr. Speaker, we want this company to be a vibrant operation in Brandon, and to that end we are moving right now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR.

EVAN S: Will the Honourable Minister reveal to the Hous e or adVis e the House of the se veral year s of substantial profits made by the McKenzie Seed Company? For many years. And Mr. Speaker, will the Honourable Minister please adVise the House when this government is going to fulfill a commitment to the people of Brandon and to the McKenzie Seeds' em ployees and indeed to the province by forth with refina ncing the company known as McKenzie Seeds, which was implied by the first Pr emier of this province when he campaigned in the City of Brandon in 197 7? Would you forth with ••. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Order please . That information is re adily available to the honourable member if he wants to read his annual report. The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. MR. BA NMAN: Mr. Speaker, I guess this is the problem that the members opposite have, they have a very short mem ory. In 1974 and 197 5 that member who just asked that question was grappling with the same problem and couldn't convince his Cabinet colleagues at that time to do that. Now when he is sitting on the opposition side and has no responsibility with regards to this matter he makes all kinds of intere sting statements . Mr.

Speaker, that particular matter is under active review. We are making statement adjustments this year to reflect certain things that should have been cleaned up a long time ago when we knew that you we re injecting monies that had alread y been lost. And, Mr. Speaker, the documentation is on the record and all the member has to do it go back and read his correspondence with the diff erent people that he had at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PA WLEY: To the Minister of Co-Qperative Development.

The Minister of Co-Qperative Deve lopment is intere sted in talking about the financial statement of 1974 and 1975 . Can he confirm that he and his Leader were aware of the financial statements of 197 4 and 197 5 on October lOth, 1977 when his Le ader promised the people of Brandon that McKenzie Seeds would remain a Crown corporation within Manitoba itse lf? MR. BA NMAN: Mr. Speaker, one of the things that we have stated constantly is that we want to see that plant remain in Brandon and expand in Brandon.

If that require s a partnership arrangement or an equity position with another company that is where we are headed, but you cannot close your eyes and hide your head in the sands when you are losing $1 million a yea r. Unfortunately, some people can I guess. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR.

EVAN S: Will the Honourable Minister of Co-Qperative Deve lopment confirm fr om the information that he has that preparations were made for the refinanc ing of McKenzie Seeds in 1976 and early 1977 by virtue of agree ment with Brandon Univ ersity, whereby that univer sity agreed to amend the former agreement that had been made with it and whereby Mrs. Roberts, the daughter of the late Dr. A. A. McKenzie, agr eed to give up her claim to cer tain equity?

Will the Minister ad vise the House whether he has knowledge that those arrangem ents were made in prepartion for the refinancing of McKen zie Seeas back in 19 76-19 77? - 14 5-

Thursday, 28 February 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. MR. BA NMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have information that goes back to 197 4 where the Mi nister had correspondence with the previ ous Chairman, and indicated at that time that he would refinance it. That's 1974; he is talking about two or three year s later, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PA WLEY: Mr . Speaker, to the First Minister.

Would the First Minister undertake to ensure that his commitment, his pledge, made to the people of Brandon on October lOth, 19 77, pertaining to McKenzie SeedS is retaine d and is kept and is honoured? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LY ON: Mr. Speaker, I have done that on a number of occasions and I am happy to say that the people of Brandon have more re spect for what is said on this side of the House than they have for what is heard fr om that side of the House . . MR. PA WLEY: A supplementary to the First Minister.

Did the First Minister not commit himself to ensuring that McKenzie Seeds would remain a Crown corporation within Manitoba in the event of the election of his govern ment? MR. LY ON: Mr. Speaker, as I have said on many many occasions, what we said was that McKenzie SeedS was not one of the silly kind of ideological companies - if my honourable fr iends don't want the answer, Mr. Speaker, that' s fine by me. MR. CHERNIAC K: We want the answer, not a speech. MR. LY ON: If my honourable friendS are willing to listen, I am willing to speak; if they are not, I am willing to sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Order s of the Day.

The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WA LDING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to addres s a question to the Mi nister of Education and ask him he can confirm that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is planning to lay off 120 teacher s this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH COSENS (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, in answe r to the question fr om the Me mber for St. Vital, I cannot confirm that particular figure. I have not receivea that information. MR. WA LDING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the same Minister.

In the inter ests of se eing that there is no redu ction in the quality of eaucation for the stud ents of that particular division, would the Minister unde rtake to find out the facts and report to the House ? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will be receiving that information. I would merely suggest to the Member for St. Vital that in an era of declining enrollments we can expect in the natural course of ev ents that there will be some diminution in the size of the teaching staff. MR. WA LDING: One further question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister adVis e the House as to the value of the Foundation Pr ogram to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for this year? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I will be quite prepared to go into all of the details of the Foundation Pr ogram when I get to my Estimates. As the member real izes, the financing of ed ucation through the Foundation Pr ogram is a rather involved formula. Those details I woula certai nly addreS> during my Estimates . - 14 6 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for We llington. MR. BRI AN CORRIN: MR. Speaker, my question flows from the re sponse given by the Minister of Labour to my colleague fr om Elmwood. I would ask the Minister, Mr. Speaker, whether he can confirm that the provincial judge pres iding at the Ac kland fatality inquiry stated in his written findings, and I quote, "evidence before me which seemed to confirm the decision by the CGA to condemn, under line the word condemn, the flexible connectors that had been used up to that time.

Can he confirm that the inquest finding was that there was condemnation of the flexible connector? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that. What I can confirm is.what I said before, that in 19 61, to the best of my knowled ge, in all records available, that connector was not condemned. There was a newer, better type came on the mar ket, and it was decided by the Department of Labour at that particular time that new construction could utilize a newer, better type. Period. MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister also confirm that the judge, in his findings, re fe rred to the Department of Labour's failure to inform the owners of the old sty le condemned equipment of the new specifications that had been approved, and can he confirm that such failure to notify the homeowners was found to have precluded them from re -testing or replacing the faulty connectors? And can he also in this regard confirm that the provincial judge found that the lack of communication between the Department of Labour and the public was the cause of the fatal incident? And in that regard, Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise us what he will do in order to assure the public that this sort of failure to communicate will not re-occur in the future? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, it's a fair amount of request for confirmation. I originally didn't confirm what the questioner had asked in the fi rst place. I specifically said that it could not be confirmed. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, it was not a fact that 19 61, those connectors were condemned. That seems to be the crux of the entire problem, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for We llington with a final supplementary. MR.

CORR IN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I don't say this facetiously, and no ill will is intended. Wi th all due respect, will the Minister assure the House that he will read the inquest jud ge's findings and report back to the House after he has done so? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, rm not aware, or may I never be, exactly the reasoning for the particular type findings. What I am aware of is the facts and documentation that's available within the Department of Labour, and I don't think I need spell out what those facts are. I've said it twice now, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy, or to the Minister responsible for that department in his absence.

In light of the re cent decision by Briti s h Columbia to impose a moratorium in regard to uranium exploration and mining in that province, and also in light of the fact that there is mention being made of northern Manitoba as being a potential area for uranium mining in the future, can the Minister indicate what [X'ocedures are in place to ensure that the public safety and he alth will be safe guarded ad equately throughout any phas e of uranium exploration and mining in the province of Manitoba? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LY ON: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Fnergy, I would be happy to take that question as notice. - 147 -

Thur sday, 28 February 1980 MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to address a question to the Minister responsible for winter roads construction. During a previous Question Pe riod, the Minister indicated that negotiations were ongoing in regard to the construction of a winter road into the community of Red Sucker Lake. As it is late in the construction year, can the Minister indicate if that funding will be forthcoming, so that ar rangements for construction may be made if the dec ision is positive in this regard? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. DO N. ORCHARD (Pem bina): Mr.

Speaker, on a previous occasion, when the Member for Churchill asked about the Red Sucker Lake road, I indicated to him that that matter was under discussion and consider ation. For some five weeks now I have been waiting for a reply to a letter to a gentleman in charge of construction of winter roads in that area. To this day, I haven't rec ei ve d a reply to that letter. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, thank you. rve seen the other side of the coin. Those gentlemen tell me they have been waiting for answers fr om the Minister for quite some time.

In that case, if I can act as a intermediary in this case, and arr ange a meet ing, is the Minister prepared to meet with represen tatives of that band and the Me-Ke-Si corporation in the near future in order to arrange a final decision on this matter? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, the letter that I'm waiting on is of particular importance, because it in dicates the level of federal commitment to that winter road, which is of importance, because it is a cost-shared program between the fed eral government and the provincial govern ment.

And when the Me-Ke-Si company avail me of the facts as to how much federal funding the y have towards the construction of the winter road into Red Sucker Lake, we can ce rtainly meet and negotiate whatever is necessary in lieu of the facts that they present. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for KildOnan. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is add ressed to the Minister of Labour. Can he inform the House how much longer he is going to exempt Hooker and Simplot Chemical fr om the classifications of The Power Engineers Act in respect to the operation of that plant? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: I do not have a specific period of time in mind to carry on that exemption, Mr. Speaker. MR. FOX: Will the Minister assure this House that it will be upon his onus in respect to the safety aspects in the operation of thooe two plants without qualified power engineers? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to take the responsibilities that Labour Ministers have to take when they issue exemptions. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for KildOnan with a final supplementary. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In respect to the answer that the Minister gave, I asked him whether he is prepare d to accept the onus of safety that may be at hazard there. My other question in respect to that, Mr. Speaker, is in regard to the fact that Simplot has had an in-house training program for a long period of time and has not been successful in getting any second-class engineers, dOes he not feel that he should put more pressure on Simplot to get on with finding a second�lass engineer to operate its plant? Any where. MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Speaker, we can all speak in deg rees of success.

There is an ele ment of success that has taken place in relationship to their in-plant training. I unders tand that tests will be written very shortly for six particular individuals there that would be qualified in the higher classification than they are presently, and upon completion of that - 14 8 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 test, they tell me that the qualifications of these people are that great that they will carry on into the next phase of their training program. MR. FOX: Would the Honourable Minister concur if Simplot was prepared to pay a better salary, it would be able to maintain second class engineers? MR. Mac MASTER: Mr. Speaker, I can't concur with that particular situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RON ALD McB RYD E: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transporation.

I wonder if the Minister could ad vise the House why he announced the opening of the winter road to the Island Lake area before it was ready, causing a number of vehicles to get stranded on that road? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. ORCHAR D: Mr. Speaker, the winter road, when it was opened , was considered in fit shape to carry the loads that went in. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pa s with a final supplementary. MR. McBRY DE: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could ex plain then why 17 vehicles were stranded on that road? MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, fr om the time that the winter road was opened up until thooe trucks rea ched a particular

section in the road, it snowed some seven inches. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The time for Question Pe riod having expired and before we proceeo with the Orders of the Day .•. The Honourable Governm ent House Leader. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I woulo like to move with leave, secondeo by the Minister of Govern ment Ser vices, that Morris McG regor, Esquire, member for the Electoral Division of Vi rden, be Deputy-Chairman of the Committees of the Whole House. MR. SPEA KER: You've heard the motion of the Honourable Attor ney-Ge neral. The Honourable Member for Vi rden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr.

Speaker, yes, I would have liked to talk myself out of that position, but really , through you, I woul<l like to thank the members of this Chamber for the confidence expresse d in me, and I hope I can live up to that expectation, knowing that there will be errors, and ce rtainly I will be guided by that committee always. But may I let all members know my strong feeling on after- mionight hours.

I re alize I am helpless in many ways, but I'm still capable, I think, of scheming a little bit, ano I think in 20 Sessions I've seen so much ill feeling, mistakes maoe in those wee hours, that it will be my oesire to control re petition, and in lieu of that, try not to run after midni ght. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MOTIO N presented and carri eo. THRO NE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for River Heights on the ·amendment proposed by the Honourable Leaoer of the Opposition, the Honourable Me mber for Transcona has 23 minutes left. MR. PA RAS IUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I congratulateo the Member for Morris yesterday in his absence fr om the House on his forthcoming election to the position of Chairman, and I concur very much with that election. I think his comments today reinforceo - 14 9 -

Thlll'sday, 28 February 19 80 - (In terjection)- rm sorry, that's right, I agree, I think that there is an incredible difference in philosophy with respect to the House between those two members and I apologize to the Member for Vi rden for confusing him with the Member for Morris --(Interjection)- Indeed I think that his statements to us just now reflected, I think, an integrity with respect to the procedures of the House, and frankl y, I think that your appointment to a position by your caucus, as I said yest erday, is long overdue - and congratulations. Mr.

Speaker, before adjour nment yesterday, I was speaking on the difference in approach between New Democrats and Conservatives on the issue of foreign domination of our economy. The New Democrats firmly believe that the Canadian economy is too dominated by foreign multinationals who put international or international profit maximization ahead of national or provincial interests.

And because the levers of economic power are controlled by forces outside this country, the important decisions affecting us - and I can name oil prices, I can name interest rates, I can name the price of consumer goods - those decisions that affect us are made not here in Manitoba, or not here in Canada, but rather in New York, Ja pan, or Saudi Ar abia. We believe that situation is wrong and must be rectified. Manitoba Conservatives, on the other hand, believe that even more dir ect foreign inv estment, as opposed to loans, is a good thing.

The Pr emie r went to the United States in November of 19 79 , begging for more foreign investment, and he pledged that he would have his colleagues in Ottawa at the time abolish the Foreign Inv estment Review Agency. Now, Mr. Speaker, that's a preposterous policy for Canada in the Eighties. Let me give you a concrete example of how shortsighted this reliance on forei gn investment is, and how stupid it is, and how it affects Manitoba directly. Remember Tantallum - the people of Manitoba, thr ough the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation, owned 25 percent of Tantallum Mines.

We had the option, through the Manitoba Deve lopment Corporation, of acquiring 50 percent more of Tantallum Mines. And we didn't excer cise that option last year. Inae ed , we didn't have the colll'age to go aheaa with a further investment in Tantallum Mines, ana as a result, Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting - which really is a subsidiary of a South Afr ican firm called Anglo American - purchased Tantallum Mines for $6 million. And the irony of this is that Tantallum Mines is not a loser.

Tantallum Mines made a clear after-royalty , after -tax profit last year of S2 million - S2 million - and that is something that has been taken away from us as Manitobans. Ana really, Mr. Speaker, I was outraged by that. I think the people of Manitoba were outraged . We, in fact, were getting plucked because of this govern ment. And my outrage was intensified, Mr. Speaker, when I was reaaing the Financial Post. And the Financial Post is a big business magazine, it cer tainly isn't any type of left-wing paper.

It's the September 29, 19 79 edition of the Financial Post, and it's titlea, "Harry Openheimer's An glo Am erican is Everywh ere." And in this article, it says Harry Open heimer, who may or may not have the best per sonal cash flow in the world, was quite excited about his company's prospects - he's the chairman of Anglo Am erican, which owns Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting - he was quite excitea about what was taking place with his company.

And he saia, "We'r e the biggest in gold mines, diamonds, coal, heavy industry." Then, warming to the prospects, and I quote, "And there's never been a time of such investment opportunities." And then he lists the great investments that his company has undertaken, and these are in order. He lists a new diamond mine in southern Botswana which will be one of the biggest in the world, then he talks about the immense coal projects in South Africa, and then he talks about the move by Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting to buy Tantallum Mining of Canaaa.

That is his position ana he sees it as a good move by them , and I ask my self why aid we give that up? Why did we give up that profit from that mine when we had the opportunity to have it? It must be because of this tremenaous drive on the part of the Conservatives to get out of anything successful that is publicly-ownea or run. Now the case of selling out olll' resolll'ce and Olll' heritage to a multinational is only one of many. We have given up our options of gaining 50 percent of mines, ana this is because of this Conservative madness. And, Mr.

Speaker, the position of having an option or taking control in the mines is one that is becoming accepted right across the country. I think if we look next to us at the Pr ovince of Saskatchewan, we can appreciate the successes that they have accomplished by taking a fairly inter ventionist role with respect to resource dev elopment. They , in fact, are in a far better financial position than we are here in Manitoba, and their economic situation is far better than we are in Manitoba.

You know, when I raise Saskatchewan I think that what happens with members on the opposite side of the House, they say, "Oh yes, but that is Socialism. You know, we can't do that." And they start trotting out the ir tracks on totalitarianism. Well, I ask them to consider the case of Newfoundland. You know, Newfoundlana right now is going through a tremendous resolll'ce boom, quite the contrary to Manitoba. Again, I would like to quote from another

article in The Financial Post. If I keep quoting from The - 15 0 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 Fin ancial Post I am quite convinced that the Pr emie r will start refer ring to it as a Socialist rag with the sycophants of the Left and the media who are staffing this particular -(Interjection)- which are, in fact, staffing this particular paper. And I would like to just quote here. It says, "Peckford and his colleagues have spent much time travell ing to vie w the impact of offshore development in other areas, the North Sea in particular, and they have set out clear guiaelines and regulations for the oil corn panies.

These include a preference for Ne wfoundland controlled companies and offshore ser vice work; requirements to em ploy local labour and carry out local trading ; a demand that oil companies produce a comprehensive development plan before they commence production; and a provincial option to buy into 40 percent of oil production." You must be scandalized by that. I mean, this is exactly what you abolished last year, because we had something like that in place. We could buy into 50 percent of mineral production, but you said this is wrong, this is going to hurt mining de velopment.

This will hurt resource de velopment. But Newfoundland, on the other hand, with this provision, is experi encing the best boom it has ever experienced in its history, and finally may have some future to look forward to. This

article goes on to say, "Peckford's philosophy of govern ment control and inter vention makes it almost hard to believe that he is a Conservative Pr emier at all." And, of course, people opposite wouldn't include him in their ranks as a Conser vative, given what I have heard in the House recently. But he and his colleagues have grown up with the provincial experience that flies in the face of free market i<leology. Concessions to the mining and forest industries have led, in Peckfo rd's opinion, to Newfoundland being ripped off.

You know, it must be ironic to the Conservatives that the Newfoundland economy is having a boom, not because of the Manitoba Conserv ative brand of neo-Conservatism, but rather because of what we on this side of the House call good government . Mr. Speaker, Peckford in Newfoundland has seen the light. Multinationals have ripped off Newfoundland; he is doing something about it, and they have some future. And here, Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Conservatives are begging the multinationals to come in and rip us off and we, ironically, Mr. Speaker, are becoming the old Newfoundland of Western Canada.

We are becoming the poor cousin as a province in Confederation, and it is precisely because of their attitude and their approach. And when I say that Pe ckford is fighting the multinationals, and when I say that we indeed are fighting the multinationals when it comes to our future in terms of our economy, I would like to quote another per son who is quoted in this article, and it is Dorey Little, the Pr esident of Mobile Oil Canada Incorporated. Mobile is a subsidiary of Mobile of the Uni tea States. He says, and I quote, "At some point we will have to get right down on the mat and wrestle with them." Mr.

Speaker, that is his attitude towards Brian Peckford and the Newfounaland gover nment trying to increase the resource wealth of their country. Mr. Speaker, if Truman Capote ever wrote a book about the Conservative Government in Manitoba similar to the book entitled "In Cold Blood", I am sure he would have to enti tle this book about Manitoba Conservatives "Compulsion" or "Possessed". How else could you describe the completely unpopular drive to privatize and privateer, not only natural resources, but also anything else that is public.

Ther e is complusion to privatize or mutualize Aut opac, although this is incred ibly unpopular, but the Conser vatives are looking for some way of doing it. We had a debate in Question Pe riod toaay about the compulsion on the part of Conservatives to somehow privatize McKenzie Seeas. Ana let me tell you, the people of Br andon don't have the same faith in the integrity of the Pr emie r that the Pr emie r has in himself. In the last Federal Election, you might be interested to know that the Conserv atives lost both provincial parts of Brandon. The people of Brandon are turning against them, Mr.

Speaker, and I think that they, in fact, have sowed their own see<ls of their destruction with the ir compulsion. Mr. ·speaker, when we turn to liquor sales - you know, liquor is sola by the public in Manitoba. Most people are in favour of that. Va rious polls that have been done show that most people are in favour of that type of approach, and yet we have this gover nment appointing yet another commission to look into ways and means whereby liquor can be sold privately. - 15 1 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 Mr . Speaker, we as a province are wasting time, we are wasting money on studies which aren't necessar y, to produce unpopular unnecessary destr uctive things like this, while the real problems are declining economy, outmigr ation, bankruptcies of small business - a number of small businesses putting up For Sale signs. You know, the last Federal Election I had the occasion to go through a lot of small rural communities, and I was amazed at the number of businesses that have For Sale signs on them.

I mean, those people who were looking for some type of nir vana when the Conser vatives came in are recognizing that that nir vana does not ex ist, that they in fact are suffering from rural depopulation in a massive way, and that some type of govern ment inter vention is necessary to counterb alance that. And it is not happening, Mr. Speaker, because we or this government will not define that as a problem, and is backing away from it.

We have inner -city decay and we have housing problems in the inner-city, and I am amazed that a Throne Speech like this would somehow have the audacity to put it in as a program an intention to deal with the housing problems of the inner-c ity just short months after Fil Fileccia, the Acting Chairman of the Board of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, sent a letter to the City Council when City Council was debating whether, in fact, to establish a non-profit corporation, and in that letter he said the view of the province is that a non-profit housing corporation is not necessary, and he in fact pooh-poohed any housing problems in the inne r-city.

Short months after that approach, which was an attempt by the Pr ovincial Govern ment or at least its agents - I assume that this official was acting on the instructions of his Minister, and if he wasn't he should be fired - short months after that attempt to sabotage the city's first tenative attempts to try and deal with inner-cit y housing programs, this governm ent, I think somewhat scared after the federal election, tries to introduce some positive statements with respect to inne r-city housing.

Fr ankly, although I think that's a somewhat hypocritical approach, rm glad that they've introduced that item into the Throne Speech, because we are going to put pressure on you to live up to your commitments, and we know that the people will not accept govern ments changing their promises. I think they showed John Cr osbie that very clearly. And I think they're going to show this government that very clearly in two years as well. We still have problems with respect to the elderly. We have tremendous waiting lists for senior citizens' housing; we have tremendous waiting lists for nursing homes; and yet, Mr.

Speaker, instead of dealing directly with those fundamental issues facing us, we are somehow pursuing this drive which I call a compulsion of privatization. Mr. Speaker, the gover nment is really acting as if it's possessed. And obviously, this government , because it's possessed, needS an ex orcist. And the exorcist will be the people of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. In fact they will be exorcising the Conser vatives in a year or a year and a half, whenever the Conservatives do, in fact, get some courage to call an election. Mr.

Speaker, I have concentrated on the economy because I feel that the economy is, in fact, our greatest challenge of the 1980s. I'd like to spend a few of my rema ining minutes on he alth. rll expand on this in the Health Estimates, but Mr. Speaker, I think that the biggest threat to health care in Manitoba and Canada is the Conservative compulsion to privatize. Mr. Speaker, this gover nment is shifting resources away from public practitioners of health care, to private practitioners of health care.

A concrete example is the shift in emphasis and funding of this gover nment from non-proprie tary personal care homes to private, profit-making personal care homes. Again, why? We have example after example of private profit-making nur sing homes not doing a good job, not ever re-investing their profit into improving the facilities, but rather taking the money away and investing in land development and housing deve lopment and other activities, when in fact they should have been investing some of their profits back to improving the quality of those per sonal care homes.

And on the other hand, we have non-profit community and religious groups who are providing exce llent personal care right now, virtually begging this government to do more, because they recognize that there is a tremendous need for personal care for senior citizens, and they have been consistently turned down by this government, which is has been favouring the private sector. And when the private sector hasn't produced, we have the weird situation of the Minister saying, I am going to give the private sector in personal care a special deal.

I am going to give them special incentives. rm going to give them either a special day rate, or subsidized funds, so that they in fact, can make more money. Mr. Speaker, we believe that the profit motive really cannot be allowed in the provision of health care. - 152 -

Thur sday, 28 Febr uary 1980 I think that any private group that wants to somehow squeeze an extra 20 perce nt out as their profit margin will logically provide worse care than a dedicated non-profit group that wants to provide that care, not for money, not for love of a buck, but because of love of humanity. And that is the difference in approach between ourselves and them. But it also und er cuts the public health care system. We are also having a bias towards priv atization in De nticare, in higher doctors' fees .

We have a situation where the institutions that serv ice the private part of the medic al care program are being enl arged, and I think the Minister will probably be announcing something very large for the Health Scienc es Centre, while at the same time, Mount Carmel Clinic, which has done such an excellent job over the ye ars on a community clinic basis, has been rejec ted in its appeal for fundS to this government to expand its operation. Mr. Speaker, this privatization is a tremendous danger to univer sal, socialized he alth car e. And it's also stupidly expens ive.

The perce ntage of Canada 's GNP spent on health care is about 6.8 percent to 7 perce nt. The percentage of the United States GNP spent on health care is about 8.6 perc ent, and which one is better ? Which system of health care is better ? A socialized, Canadian health care system, accessible to all, on a cost efficient basis, or a private, profit-oriente d system of health care, accessible mainly to the rich that exist in the United States. We, on this side of the House, choose, and want to protect the Canadian system.

You on that side of the House are drifting towards the American model through your privatization. Mr. Speaker, I look for war9 to that de bate. I look for ward to the debate that the Minister is going to have with Monique Beg in, who I hope will be appointed, the Minister of Health and Wel fare , and I think that she is one Liberal who I respect.

She has been principled on this issue consistently; one of the few, I must admit, because she was in opposition to her leader when her leader imposed that system of fle xibility which allowed Conser vative gover nments really to under mine Medic are right across the country. But I respec t her and her position on this, and I firmly believe that she, indeed, will tackle the Minister and provide the accurate fig ures, and show in fact that there has been an undercutting of Medicare. Mr. Speaker, this gover nment does not want to govern .

It is merely acting like a cork; it's bobbing on water and it's trying desperately to stay right side up while events like outmigration and a depressed economy overtake it. Mr. Speaker, they 're looking for some outside corporate force to save it, and there will be no outside corporate force to save it. The people left in Manitoba will remove it, and install in its place, a government with the will to govern. And Mr. Speaker, in the interim, the tragedy is that this gover nment is weakening and even destroying effe ctive instruments of government for the future.

We on this side of the House are going to preserve these instru ments so that a gover nment acting in the name of Canadians and Manitobans and in the pursuit of ec onomic and social justice, can meet the great challenges of the '80s. We, Mr. Speaker, are on our way to assuming that role. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My first words, on rising to participate in this Throne Speech Debate would be of congratulations to you and welcome to you, Sir, back to your position as ar biter of the debates in this Ch amber, and protector of the interests of all members.

I wish you well in the session ahead , and join with others who have alread y extended their respect to you for your conduct of the affairs in this Chamber in past sessions, Sir.

I also want to join with my colleagues and others on the other side of the House who have ex tended congratulations to the Mover and the Seconder of the addre ss in reply to the Speech fr om the Throne, the Honourable Member for River Heights and the Honourable Member for Emerson, and of course add my warm welcome, again to the Honourable Member for River Heights, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge and the Honourable Member for Tr anscona --(Interjec tion) -- Rossmer e, I'm sorry - the Honourable Member for Rossmere on their ele ction_ to this Chamber, since last we met here in Leg islative session. - 1 53 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 There have been a nu mber of changes, of course, in the fa�ade of the Cha mber it self in terms of the personnel and posi tio ns occupied wi thin it, no t the least of those changes pertaining, Sir, to the addi tion of three fine, ne w Cabinet Mini sters to the Govern ment of Mani toba in the persons of the Ministe r of Hi ghway s, the Ministe r of Muni ci pal Affai rs , and the Min ister of Com munity Services.

And wi th all me mbers of the govern ment caucus, and indeed all me mbers of the House, for the record, Sir, I welco m,e the m and look forwad to the grea t contrib utions that they wi ll make and are already making to the affairs of this province through their positio ns on the 'Executive Council. I would also like to extend congratulations to the Leader of the Opposit ion, now offi cially confirmed in his posi tion, and compli ment hi m bo th in terms of his new responsibility , and his new appearance.

No t merely an appearance of a leader who feels, Sir, that he has barri cades that he has to storm and challenges that he has to meet , but I detect a subtle change in the physical appearance of the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition, and I comp lim ent him on his barb er, Sir. I think it 's an im provement that mig ht we ll comm end it self to many of us in this Cha mber, Mr. Speaker, and I don't exclude myself from that group. I, of course, do not have as muc h to work wi th as so me me mbers in this Cha mber, Mr.

Speaker, bu t nor does the Leader of the Opposit ion, and his barber, or his hairstylist has done very well in covering up what defect s he was hereto fore forced to carry through li fe, in terms of public appearance , above his eyebrows. I want also to extend my congratulations to the new opposi tion crit ics in their new roles.

I must say that I'm sorry to see that on the ot her side of the House they split the Departme nt of Health and Com munity Services, and I no longer will have as much shoulder-to-shoulder or eye ball-to-eyeball confrontat ion as in previous years wit h my friend, the Honourable Me mber for St . Boniface, bu t no doubt he wi ll be ju mping in from ti me to ti me, into the debate, Mr. Speaker, wi th his pearls of wi sdom in a biling ual perspect ive.

There' s no questio n that although he may have di fficulty confounding me or confusing me in any crit ic is ms directed at the Ministe r of Health and the field of health in English , he wi ll have no difficulty confounding me or confusing me if he direc ts those barbs in French , and that may well be his tact i c in the session ahead.

I look forward to contin ued co mpet i tion wit h my friend, the Honourable Me mber for Transcona, who has been eleva ted to the seats of the mig hty as the official opposit ion health cr it ic in this Chamber, and wit h respect to whom I wish hi m good fortune in his career , but a short career, Sir. I might say wi th respect to the Me mber for St . Bonif ace that I am delighted to see hi m restored to physical heal th, if not to Ministe rial heal th. In the las t session, the last ti me we met , Mr. Speaker, you wi ll re call that the Me mber for St .

Bonifac e did exper ience some heal th di fficulties whi ch we all deplo red , and it certa inly is a welcome si ght to see hi m back in full vigour. Finally, may I of fer my congra tulations to my coll eagu e, the Honourable Me mber for Virden, on his choice as Deputy Chair man of the Co mm i ttees of the Whole House. So Mr. Speaker, that's the lineup, and one that I wanted to recount, no t only for the record , but because my re m arks wit h respect to each and every one of those individ uals and offi ces mentioned are offered in all sincer it y, Sir. Now, Mr.

Speaker, a word should be said about the im pressive change that's taken place overall in the Cham ber since the las t ti me we met, and I refer , of course, to the New Look NDP .

Last session, the view from this side of the House, Sir, was of a spent and dispir it ed clutch of ele ctoral re fugees , vi cti ms of poli ti cal shellshock, huddled over there am id st the wreckage of their rejected doct rines, mourning the departure to Ottawa of their once-great King, qu arrelling amo ng themselves in medio cre compet i tion for the disca rded mantle, and whi mpering li ke a pack of vandals , Sir, around their night fires on the outskirts of Ro me.

At their tenuous, uncertain helm, Sir, a tenuous, uncertain inte ri m Leader, who spoke tentat ively, who performe d deferentially, and who woce the mantle of te mporary le adership wi th all the fame, bravura of a man who has just won a Lib eral no m inatio n in western Canaaa. I think it 's impo rtant to recall th at canvas, Mr. Speaker, in order to appreciat e the full grandeur of the scene that now greets us from this side of the Legisla ti ve Chamber, in the form of the New Look NDP .

Since it 's a year in Legislative ter ms since we last me t, and si nce this is my first op portunity to comme nt on it, I feel I should, Sir, on behalf of my colleagues, extend tangible recognit ion of that change. What a di fference, Sir, si nce the last session. - 15 4 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 Since then, of course, we 've had the elec tr ifying drama of an NDP leader ship convention that ri veted the at tent ion of several dozen dele gates and al most 100 television viewers for nearly hal f-an-hour last fall , confirmi ng the leader ship mantle on the assertive shoulders of the Honourable Me mber for Selkirk, propell ing hi m in his own ri ght to the head of the pack, and rekindling the spirits of the rest of the ref ugees yonder to the point, Sir, where they now they b l.ll'n wit h new zeal, new id eas and new insp ira tion.

And all th is, Sir, on the stre ngth of a great outpouring of em otion and popular de mand last fall, Sir, that rolled through a partly-fille d room in the Wi nnipeg Conven tion Cen tre , spilled over onto one of the coat racks, and finally engulfed Mani tobans in a frenzy of politi cal ecst acy, Sir. Wil l anyone ever forget that conven tion - that magni fic ant compet it ion - the crea tive, im aginative, incisive debates as the field of candida tes pi tted their in tellects against each ot her. That great drama, Sir , has effect ed the change that con fronts us· today .

It mar ked the rebir th, or so we were told, of the forces who sit opposite us in this Chamber, and so now, Sir, we come into this session wit h the New Look NDP . And what a re m arkable transfor mat ion it is, Sir. We have the confir me d Leader of the Opposition taking charge, shucking off the legacies of the Schreyer years - or so he has assured us through his press conferences -be ginning the process of de-Schreyerizat ion of the Manit oba New De mocrat ic Party, the new Leader firmly in the saddle.

Down at the end of the row, unfortunately not in his seat at the mo ment but usually here, we have the redoub table Me mber for Inkster, ri ght out of the saddle. The magni ficent volcano who sit s there in rejection, surrounded by the Me mber for St . Boniface, sm arting, Mr. Speaker, in self-impos ed iso lation, given a spot on the front benches only through the recogn it ion afforded him by the Govern ment House Leader and govern ment mem bers of the House, and you, in yolll' wi sdom and your office, Sir , but no t by his erstwhi le colleagues on the other side of the Ho use.

Then on the other side of the confir me d new Leader of the Opposi tion we have, reborn, the Hono urable Me mber for Branaon East , his stento ri an econo mic theories now piercing this Chamber wit h more clarit y and more vigor than ever, Sir. His hair and his voice taking on new tambour every day , offe ring his con tribu tions to this Cha mber.

And one could go on, Sir , one could go on, but that is the revi talized, reinvig orated, dyna mic , inspir ing pictu re of the New Look NDP, the feared crim son tide be hind the new Leader from Selkirk, who are going to change politics in this province, change the conduct of the province's affai rs and change the balance of power in this Chamber. Well, Mr. Speaker, the showing to date -and I would concede that this session has some consid erable dis tance to go yet -but the showing to date, Sir, could no t be described in even the kindest ter ms as even mild ly effectual or im ix-essive.

So we shall have to wait to see after the fanfare; afte r the grea t conven tion ; after the ini tial comm ent aries and speeches in this Ho use by those on the opposit e side who have partic ipat ed in the Throne Speech Debate thus far; after all of the fawning adula tion of some me mbers of the Press -and I em phasize the word ''so me" because certainly not all of the Press is hoodwinked -but certain fawning sycophants, certain of those who slavishly and in doctrinaire fashion yearn for the return of the philosophies, eit her of the New De mocrats or of the Libe rals because of their resentme nt to the Conse rvative Party; afte r all of those great trum pets, and all of those great headlines, and all that great publici ty, Mr.

Speaker , what do we have? No t a bang, but a bunch of whimp ers. So we wi ll wai t and see, Mr. Speaker, whether indeed the Chamber has changed integrally and funda mentally the wa y it has changed superfi cially in ter ms of the different ti tles and the di fferent posi tions af forded to so me mem bers opposite. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don' t at this point in ti me want to take exception in parti cular to anything that has been sai d or suggested , ei ther by the official Health cri tic for the Opposit ion or my erstwhile co mpet it or, the offi cial crit ic of Co mmu nit y Services for the Opposition, or indeed anybody else in the opposi ti on caucus up to this point , because I think really enough of an absolut ely astounding and inco mprehensible nature has been said by the Leader of the Opposi tion to occupy one's att entio n and one's intentio ns in the li mit ed amo unt of ti me. one has to parti cipat e in this Throne Speech Debate.

So in essence I am concerning mys elf wi th the posit ion that the new Leader of the Opposi tion or the newly confirmed Leader of the Opposit ion has taken. His amendment to the Throne Speech, Mr . Speaker, is absolut ely ludic rous, abolutely lu<Jicrous, parti cularly insofar as it s reference to the dete rio ra tion of health care. It is the kind of thing, Mr. Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposit ion has beco me quit e f a mous or infamo us for in the last two years, the trumpe ting of a scare headline wi th no provision of - 155 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 facts or backup or documentation, be cause there are no such facts or backup or docu me nt ation. Anybody can glibbly toss off headline s of the kind that he does abou t de teriorating heal th care and go about passing that off as a posture of his party' s polit i cal ef forts and posi tion, but when he is called upon to produce evidence or facts to support that kind of headline he has not done it , he cannot do it and he wi ll not be able to do it , be cause they si m ply, Mr. Speaker , are not there.

For that reason I suggest to hi m in all kindness that his effort, whic h was a reasonably good one in the Throne Speech , was co mplet ely destroyed and com pletel y rendered tota lly ludi crous by the am endme nt he offers in whi ch he makes reference again to that catch-phrase "det erioration in co mprehensive health care for Mani tobans". Mr. Speaker, the facts, the evidence, the record, the money, the budget, the esti mates, and the consum ers of health care , and the professionals and the po si tion of our insti tutio ns de monstrate the precise opposit e today, the precise opposit e today.

Wh atever credibi lit y the Leader of the Opposi tion hoped to be building goes ri ght out the wi ndow wi th that kind of an am endment, Mr. Speaker. He is like the boy who cried wolf once too often, he has raised scare headlines in the past and he is raising them again and he is not able to deli ver on any of them. He is walking dangerously close to under mini ng be yond re call his credibility as leader of his party if he persists in that kind of exercise. And I offe r those comme nts to hi m in a friendly advisary way, we have been friendly riva ls in this Cha mber for some considerable years.

The honourable gentle man wo uld be off to a much be tter start, I suggest to hi m and to you, Mr. Speaker, if it were n't for his tendency to rely on his im agination for his facts. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposi ti on made reference in parti cular to the proposal under consideration by the govern ment, whic h has also been referred to in recent mo ments by the Honourable Me mber for Transcona, to work out a formula whereby partic ipa tion in the nursing hom e field is available to private operators, proprie tary operators, as well as to non-profi t and publi c operators.

And the suggestion com ing from the Hono urable Me mber for Transcona bu t laid out first, well first in this Chambe r - perhaps no t first in the Debate be cause I think the Me mber for Transcona did cri ticize me in ' terms of a statement outside this Chambe r, fairly -in a statement outsi de this Cha mber a couple of we eks ago on this point , but first in this Chamber was the Leader of the Opposi t10n to ju mp up and de plore the fact, hands ringing, that we were going to be subsidizing private nursing hom e operat ors out of the tax payers' purse and that we were going to be pursuing a po licy of recogni zing and rewarding operations for profi t in the medi cal and health field, and he said in ri ghteous indi gnati on that, "The New De mocrati c Party is not in favour of operations for profit in the medi cal and heal th field, the government is preventing non-profi t corporations from building personal care homes while preparing to subsi dize private operato rs wi th the taxpayers' money," or reasonably close to a direct qu ote.

Mr. Speaker, who does the Leader of the Opposi tion think he is kidding? We are trying to get personal care homes built and on strea m in this province and personal care beds in place to mee t the needs of those of our elderly who require them and deserve them, and there is a li mi ted amo unt of money available, Mr. Speaker. The argum ent that the Leader of the Opposition takes and relies on is that there is cheap mone y around through CMH C that enables non-profit corporations to borrow at two percent. --(Interjectio n)--No, well , but this is a fact.

The Lea der of the Opposit ion is quit e correct, he didn't say this, but I am saying the posi tion he takes is -perhaps I worded incorrectly, I should have said the po si tio n he takes is booed on the fact, the rea lity, that non-profi t builders, proprie tors in the per sonal care home field are in, as a matte r of fact in the care facility field , can borrow money through CMHC at approxi ma tely two percent while the private operator going int o the field has to go into the market and borrow at anywhere from 12 to 15 percent. Well, Mr.

Speaker, that would be fine to go all the non-profit rout e if there was that much cheap money available. The fact of the matte r, Sir, is that we wil l never, through the am ount of money available for health care shelter, for health care facilities through CM HC, be abl e to supply and provide the personal care beds that we need. We need the private secto r parti cipat ing in this field in order to supply those beds.

Further to that, Sir, I suggest to you, and I know this wi ll never be accepted on the ot her side, bu t I suggest to you that it is a disservic e to many in the health field to suggest or im ply that private operators have no place whatsoever in the nursing home field. There is somet hing ugly and unsightly about that kind of sw eeping denunciation. There are private operators, Mr. Speaker , in the health field that provide as much lo ve and com passion and tender loving care as public operat ors dO, and any professional wi ll tell you that.

The fact that there is in their operat ion an ele ment , obviously , of cost ef fi cie ncy geared to the - 1 56 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 necessit y of survival in the marketplace, in other wo rds, some profi t is an advantage in many ways, Sir , because it provides those of us in the area of responsibili ty , such as all of us in this Chamber hold, wit h a yardsti ck, a measuring stic k, of facility against facility, method against method, proQ!'am against program. If we were to go all - I wouldn't be in favour of going all non-profi l wouldn't be in favour of going all proprietary; I wouldn't be in favour of going all proprie tary operation in the personal care fi eld , but I am not in favour ei ther, Mr.

Speaker -(Interjection)- We ll, Mr. Speaker, the Me mber for Transcona wants to ask me a question, but I want to announce my capi tal program this afternoon and I have only got a few minute s left on the clock . Could I take the quest ion at the end? I would't be in favour of going all proprie tary, Mr. Speak er, but I suggest to you that we should not be in favour of going all non-profi t eit her, because there is an advantage to having a scale of performance to measure ano ther type of performance against.

There . is an adVantage in terms of le vels of staffing and nursing and medi cal care, of qu ality of die t, of qu ali ty of physi cal surrou ndi ngs, and of cost effic iency in terms of the overall operatio n and if you can take a private operation and look at its record against a public operatio n's record you then, as a government or an opposition, are in a much bette r and heal thier posit ion to be able to say, "W ell , this is the way it can be done and this is the way it should be done," and some kind of median form of funding or le vel of funding should be struck.

I suggest that as only one argu ment for having privat e operat ions in the field. Bu t the other tw o are the two that I have ment ioned -the fact that the private operators in many cases have as muc h co mpassion and as much professional is m as public operators do. The public form of operation has no mono poly on lo ve and com passion. The ot her point , that the cheap money isn't there anyway, Mr. Speaker. There is a limit ed amount of it available but not nearly enough to build the numbe rs of homes that we need . Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition and the Honourable Me mber for For t Rouge bo th expressed conc ern in their re marks that there was no thing in the Throne Speech in ter ms of heal th care. They both suggested that two or three items had been suggested several ti mes and had been repeated again this year and that it was a rewarming of old soup, so to speak. They cited in parti cular the Seven Oaks Hospi tal, the reference to it, and the reference to the $1 38 million regenerat ion of the Health Sciences Centre. Well, Mr.

Speaker, they'd be tter get used to it, because those two items perhaps have been referred to seven ti mes and they'll be referred to seven more ti mes and more than seven more ti mes because, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that every year the cash flow borrow ing autho rit y going into both of those projects whi ch translates itself, as the Leader of the Opposition well knows, into a budgetary im pact f or Mani tobans, one, two, three, four or how many years oownstream.

The cash flow borrow ing into those two project s is running in the nei ghbourhood of $9 mil li on and $1 0 mill ion a year and there is no harm whatsoever in re minding spendthrift Lib erals and no n-accoun table New Democrats of the mill ions of dollars that are going into these projects every year. I don't want any less ons from any Liberal. I don't want any lessons from any Liberal after sixt een years of the destruc tion of the econom y of this country abou t references that should be made to building for capi ta1 projects in the health field or not.

We don't need any lessons from the Lib erals on that, Mr.Speaker. The record of the Canadian Commonw eal th's near bankruptcy is vivid enough testi mony of what the Liberals think about accoun tability of dolla rs and re mind ing people of what things cost . So, I just wa nt to say to the honourable lady that her reference is a reference that disap pears on the wi nd , as far as I am concerned , be cause I wi ll make reference every year, as long as I have the responsib ility, to what is going int o the Healt h Sciences Centre. There were fifteen years of frustation.

And I know my honourable friend, the Member for St . Boniface, did his best to move and got some things moving wit h respect to the Heal th Sciences Cen tre. But I am not att aching bla me to any parti cular govern ment; I am saying there were fifteen years of frustation, and that embraces two govern ments. There were fifteen years of frustration for the Health Sciences Centre, Mr.

Speaker, and this government finally got it moving at $13 8 million, and there is no har m whatsoever -in fact it ·would be folly to do otherwise - in re minding the Leader of the Opposi tion that those mill ions of dollars in whatever annual measure ment it may be, $9 million or $10 mil lion, is going into that budget every year. -Now, the Me mber for For t Rouge said there is a desperate need, whic h was not addressed in the Throne Speech, for personal care facili ties. Well the kindest thing one can say about that charge, Mr. Speaker, is that the Honourable Me mber for For t Rouge could not have been - 157 -

Thursday, 28 Fe bruary 1980 liste ning very closely to the Throne Speech. The Throne Speech made specific reference to the capital program coming up this year and specific re ference to the component in that program having to do with constr uctio n of personal care homes. The paragraph in fact read, Mr.

Speaker, "that in addi tion, my government" • • • This was a paragraph refer ring to hospital construction, and it said, "in addi tion-my gover nment will se ek approval for the construction of a number of new personal care homes in Manitoba." Obviously the specific items weren't going to be laid out in the Throne Speech.

They will be laid out now in the capital program as I prese nt it to the House to demonstrate that this go vernment 1s moving with all vigour, with all compass ion, and with all responsibility, as quickly as we can, Sir, to meet the perceived needs in the health facility field for Manitobans in gen eral. Mr. Speaker, I take (X'ide in announcing on behalf of my colleagues, both in Cabinet and in the government caucus ge ne rally , a $5 0 million capital program of new construction and renova tion of hospitals and personal care homes in Manitoba, to get under way immediately, Si r.

The 1980-81 program of the Manitoba Health Ser vices Commiss ion calls f or the expenditure of $3 2.5 million for major hospital replacement and reno vation and more than $1 6 million for new non-proprietary personal care homes. The package al5o includes some $2 million for repa irs and reno vations resulting from reports of the (X'ovincial Fire Commissioner to bring Manitoba health facilities up to current building code standards and other contingencies. So that's the total; actually it's slightly in excess of $5 0 million, Mr. Speaker.

The hospital program includes extensive projects for Dauphin and Selkirk, reno vations to the Municipal Hospitals in Winnipeg and to the Ste. An ne Hospital and a new 25-bed adolescent p;y chiatric unit to be constructed in Win nipeg. I'll be dealing with the projects item by item --(Interjecti on)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, I might say to the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, who is asking about the adolescent psychiatric unit, I'll be coming to it in a moment. I'm referri ng to it in general ter ms at the moment as a new 25-bed adolescent p;y chiatric facility.

A total of $16 .4 million is des ignated to provide 255 addi tional non-proprietary personal care beds in Elkhorn, Hamiota, the Int erlake Region, MacGregor, Re ston, Rivers, Rossburn, and Winnipeg, plus renovations to affected hospitals and medical clinics in Gyp; umville and Lundar. Mr . Speaker, if the members opposite will keep it down for a minute •.. --(Interjection)­ ! might explain to the Honourable Me mber for St. George, who has extr eme difficulty com(X'ehendin g the English language, Mr.

Speaker, I am laying out the program of the Dep artment and the Commission and I just said to him, through the Honourable Member for St. Boniface and through you, Sir, that I will deal with the projects project-by-t>roject after I get through the layout of the overall program. Mr. Speaker, the 255 new beds will consist of 165 in rural Manitoba and a 90 bed personal care home in Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The Honourable Member for St. George on a point of ord er. MR. BIL LIE UR USKI (St. George): On a point of privile ge, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Health indicated that I have extr eme difficulty under standing the English language, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Health, when he was speaking to the Member from St. Boniface, was deal ing di re ctly with the new facility that he was spe aking about in te rms of construction. He was being asked about it. He was not deal ing at all with the facilities that I spoke to him about, with the nursing homes in Er iksdale and Asher n. MR.SPEAKER: Order please, or der please. The honourable member has not got a point of privilege in that respect. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, Pd like to continue if I could. The 25 5 new beds will consist of 16 5 in rural Manitoba, and a 90-bed personal care home for Winnipeg to be built by the Oddf ellows and Rebec cas in St. Vital. In addi tion, I am hopeful that proprietary oper ators in Winnipeg and Po rtage la Pr airie, affected by closure or reducti on in bed numbers in Ja nuary 197 8, will get into construction this ye ar and will add a minimum of 282 addi tional personal care beds to the spectrum. - 158 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 Als o in the proprietary field, a 104 -bed personal care home has already been approved for construct ion in Selkirk to replace an existing 72-bed home that is ti me expired. If private constr uction in Selkirk proves impossible, a non-proprie tary care home will get under way this year. The combina tion of confir med non-proprie tary nu rsing homes and proposed proprie tary facilities w \11 d add a minimum of 56 9 personal care beds to the province's current supply of 7, 480. Mr.

Speaker, I want to underline the combination of confirmed no n-proprie tary nursing homes and proposed proprie tary facili ties would add a mini mum of 569 personal care beds to the provinces current supply of 7 ,4 80. I want to underline, Mr.

Speaker , the fact that this new $50 mil lion program is in addi tion to $15 0 million worth of capi tal work on hospi tals and personal care homes approvea during the past two years by the government and already in various stages of progress, including the $75 mi llion first phase of red evelopment of the Health Sciences Cen tre and a score of rural Manit oba heal th projects.

Two other capi tal projects on the near horizon for the govern ment involve renovation of Deer Lodge Hospi tal and Misericordia Hospi tal, but no im mediate provision has been made for the m in this year's capi tal program, pending further studies and discussions. The govern ment want s close cons ulta tion wi th the Royal Canadian Legion before any decisio n is made on Deer Lodge, and we are awaiting the results of a role study before resuming discussions wit h Misericordia. MR. SPE AK ER: Order please. The Honourable Minister has four min utes. MR . SHE RM AN: I belie ve, Mr.

Speaker, that the new facili ties contained in our 19 80-81 progra m will greatly enhance the range of heal th and social services available to Mani tobans and wi ll also provide great stim ula tion to the constructio n industry in the coming months. The details of the new projects are as foll ows: In Dauphin, replace ment of the older portion of the Dauphin General Hospi tal and renovations to the newer

section and a new diagnosti c unit. In Elkh orn, renovation of the hospi tal to provide personal care beds. In Ha mio ta, hospi tal rennovation wi th reduction in acute care beds to 21, from 25 , wit h a new personal care home to be att ached to the hospi tal. In the Interlake Region, constr uction of a new free-standing personal care home at Lundar; a 20 -bed personal care ho me to be att ached to the Ashern Hospi tal; roof repairs to the Eriksdale Hospi tal , and the purchase of two cl inics in Lu ndar and Gypsumville. I woula em phasize also, Mr.

Speaker, that this is phase one of a program to meet health facility need s throughou t the Interlake. In McG regor, a new 15 -bed personal care home attached to the hospi tal ana renovations to the hospi tal, reducing acute care beds to eight from twelve. In Reston, a new personal care home for the communit y, the exact location ana size of whi ch is under discu ssion at the moment. In Rivers, a new 20 -bed personal care home at tached to the hospi tal and renovations to the hospi tal, reducing acute care beds to 16 from 20.

In Rossburn , 20 new personal care beds and a new primary care un it wit h 10 holding beds and docto r's space. In Ste. Anne, regenerat ion of the hospi tal, including new space for an im proved diagnostic uni t and out-patient services. In Selkirk, a new 75-bed hospi tal to replace the existing 77 -bed hospi tal. In Winnipeg, the LO .O.F . wil l bui ld a new 90-bed personal care home in St. Vi tal and com mence design work for a new facilit y to replace its home in Charleswood.

Construction is approved for a 25 bed in-patient ado lescent psychia tric faci lity in the city , the location of whic h now is being de termine d. At the Munici pal Hospi tals, there will be renovations to the hospi tals to allow for improve ment of progra ms, suc h as social services, day hospi tal, housekeeping, devic es, work shop, etc. and this space, Sir, wil l permit expansion of departme nts in the hospi tals that requ ire more space, suc h as pharmacy, speech and occupa tional therapies, and the ki tchen. That, Mr.

Speaker, wi th the concurrence and support of my colleagues in the Pr ogressive Conserva tive government caucus, is the capi tal progra m through the Mani toba Health Servi ces Com mission of the Departme nt of Health and the Govern ment of Manit oba for 1980 -81. -159 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 That, co mbined, Sir , wit h the programs to which reference was made in the Throne Speech in terms of servi ces that are being added and ini tiated through the He al th Services Commi ssion and other arms of the governm ent and the departme nt, wi ll provide, we think, Mr. Speaker , an exciting and a dramati c ex pansion of servi ces across the heal th care spectrum, across the medi cal spectr um for Manit obans.

It is a refle ction of the co mmi tment of this government which was given in 1977 -78 to try to get the fiscal capacity of the province in condi tion to move forward wit h new addi tions and new expansions and new services m the spect rum that wi ll guarantee that Manitoba, whi ch alr eady has an enviable heal th care syste m, re mains in the very forefront of that spectr um in North Ame ric a. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Seven Oaks. MR . SAU L MILL ER: Mr.

Speaker, may I join wi th the ot hers in congratulating you on your continued position in this Ho use as the impa rtial arbit rat or and order keeper, and I hope that you wi ll, indeed , recogn ize that your responsibility is to bo th sides of the House and to treat bo th equally and fairly. As well, rd li ke to join wit h other speakers who have spoken to welco me the Members from River Hei ghts, Fort Rouge and Rossme re , who, I am sure wi ll do their ut most to represent their consti tuents, and rm sure the y'll do it ably and well. Mr.

Speaker, I have been si tting list ening to the Ministe r of He alth , who now has the one portfoli o and instead of two, and I wish hi m well on that because it was an onerous portfolio, as wel l I know, and a di fficult one. I hope that in spli tting it, however, they don't make the mist ake of starting to trea t people as if social services and health servic es are two totally se parate servi ces.

One of the evils in our society has been that in att acking people proble ms we try to isolat e them, we try to sort of special ize them to the extent that a person is treated by one agency for a particular proble m and then the same person, for anot her proble m, has to be trea ted so mewhere else. In those areas where the Health and Social Servic es were co mbi ned it was recognized that it was the wel l-being of the individ ual that had to be taken into account , and that the to tali ty of resources had to be funneled in the same direction wit h the sam e sense of responsib ility.

And so there is a danger that in se parating the two departme nts the tendency wo uld be for the bureaucracies, for the admini stration, to each operate in its own way, and the loser is, in the final analysis, the indivi dual who is the recipient of the servi ces. Mr. Speaker, I listened wit h great care to the Minist er of Health, and he is in his usual form. He has a good sense of humour, he knows how to turn a phrase and sort of slip the needle in very gently bu t very sharply, very effectively, and he gets his laughs. That' s fair game, he li kes to do that and I suppose he enjoys it .

And it 's a way of wasting ti me but that's his proble m. Bu t you know, I don't think I've ever heard a more self -congratulatory speech than I just heard. Does the Ministe r really expect that I and my colleagues here, or Mani tobans generally, are going to stand up and say, Hall eluia, lo ok what he's doing! Mr. Speaker, they are the Go vernme nt of Manitoba. They have a responsibili ty. Where have they been for the las t 27 months? They are long overdue. He has taken out an old NDP program, approved, taken it out of draw er No. 3 at the bott om, he's dusted it off and he's just read it to us. Halle luia!

Where have you been the las t 27 months? I know where he's been, he's been up on cloud nine, and he really beli eved , as his First Ministe r beli eved, and as many on that side believed, that the leas t govern ment is the best govern ment. They believe it wi th their heart and soul. And I don't think they're cyni cal, I don't think that they are false, they honestly believe this, funda ment ally. And there are people in this world that do, and they are of that ilk. --{Interjectio n)--No, I think they're since re people. They have a pomt of vi ew and they believe it and they live it .

But now they're in trouble, now they're in trouble. You know last year, too, I recall that same Minis ter, I can't give hi m the page of Hansard, I don't know, bu t las t year too, he said, you know the trouble is the opposi tion is not effective, that's the trouble. Well why, when we, the Conse rvatives, we re in opposit ion we we re an effective opposi tion; but the New De mocrati c Party opposit ion is not ef fective, it has no meaning.

Well, you know, I wi sh for his sake that -no, I won't put it that way -for my sake I wi sh that we continue to be as effe ctive this session and next session as we have been the last two. Because frankly what happened in the last two federal electio ns is a reflec tion on the at ti tudes that people have towards this gover nm ent, and he can get on his feet and talk about $50 mil lio n, or $15 mi llio n or $10 mi llion, and ratt le them off so fast that I di dn' t even try to take notes, rll read them in Hansard, bu t I recognized many of the things he said as being our -160 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 programs. And he can try to make hay on that, try to now imply wit h that message that somehow the Conservat ive government is meeting its oblig ations. Mr. Speaker, it' s a - how will I pu t it ? - it 's a rebirt h of a realization that they are here to serve people, that government : . an ins tru ment whi ch is logi cally and correctly to be used to proviae services to peopl e, wi1t,he r they be in the field of economic sti mulation, whet her they be in the field of people services, of whi ch healt h is one of them. So I frankly cannot beco me overawed by all this.

There is nothing for hi m to feel so proud of. If he had maint ained the ti metable established then half of those projects that he announced so li vely today would be well on the road, well on the road. He tells us, "I'm going to remind you of Seven Oaks." Mr. Speaker, every ti me that Ministe r gets up and talks about Seven Oaks I have to tell you I sit in my seat ana I chortle, because that's the same Minister who was very doubt ful about Seven Oaks. I think he referred to it as the biggest commu nity clinic this side of Moscow. Now he's talking about the Seven Oaks Hospi tal, isn't that a terri fic thing. Mr.

Speaker, the reason why Seven Oaks Hospi tal is rising now, being built and it 's going to open in October , is because it was so far down the pike he coulan't stop it . Ana if he's honest he'll admi t it. And if he could have stopped it, he would have. Now I'll tell you all a secret. They would have dropped $1 0 mil li on if they haa tried to cancel that contract. --(Interjectio n)--Now he says 15 - that's intla tion for you, that's inflat ion for you. A year and a half ago it was 10. He ne ver denied it , he never admi tted it . He alwa ys was at arm's length.

Well, it' s here, Seven Oaks is here , and they can stand on thei r heads. Do you know how much credi t you're going to get for Seven Oaks? Bingo. That's what you 're going to get. Two goose eggs, two goose eggs. Mr . Speaker, if that Minister of Health thinks he can get up here consistently and fool the publi c, he is wrong.

And damn it all, doesn't he realize that people told him twice in nine months that they're not to be fooled, they're not to be taken for fools , that people have di gnity , that they have sense, that they can analyze for themselves ana no t be taken in by a lot of hogwash, the kind that he likes to deliver in this House, wit h his pious little int onations ana those smooth tender words, periodically wit h a bit of a shaft, the needle that he like s to give. --(Interjection)-Oh, he's alw ays smiling. I've referred to hi m often as our smiling Ministe r of Healt h.

He is smiling because he is enjoying his position and he's smiling because he thinks he can achi eve what he wants to achieve in his term of offic e, which I prea1ct wi ll not go beyond 1981 if they call an election. If they don't call an election until 1982 he may be there until 19 82, maybe in the same port foli o, maybe not. Bu t there's one other thing I'd like to mention wit h regard to his effort this afternoon.

He talks about personal care homes, proprie tary and non-proprie tary , in other woras, private profi t-making or non-profi t operated by organ izations, municip al ities; and he says, there's a great deal of money needed -and there's no doubt about it. And where's all this money going to come from? We have to go to the private sector. Mr . Speaker, the private sector, where do they go to? They go to the lending insti tu tions. Ana you know something, Mr.

Speaker, the credi t rat ing of organiz ations, municipa lit ies and the province, is as good and better than the credi t rating of any private investor, and wi ll get equally as good interest terms, and I su ggest to you better interest terms than any privat e investor.

And so the per die m ra te , whi ch is established to repay that mortgage, that per die m rate wi ll be lowe r if you're repaying a mortgage, financing costs, to a non-profi t organization, whether it be muni ci pal, provincial or an organization, it wi ll be low er than the financing costs and the per die m rat e required to pay off the debt on a privat e investme nt.

And what's more, five, ten years down the line when the private ones sell out to a new fir m because it 's a going concern, they're making money, the govern ment's givmg them a higher per diem, it's guaranteed , you can't go broke and they re-sell, and they re-sell at a profi t, after all it 's a private bl.Einess. And so they sell good will wit h it , and the new buyer then has to get new financing, and he's got more inte rest that has to be paia to the lender. And who's going to be Santa Claus?

The people of Manitoba are going to play Santa Cl aus to the private profit-making investor in the field of heal th, and I say it's a aisgrace. Mr . Speaker , he says, after all it isn't right to say that the private sector lacks com pas8ion; of course not. Mr. Speaker, they're paying at a low er rate. You can't get money at a bank at what the CMH C is providing; no way, no way. And Mr. Speaker , the Minister of Heal th canno t borrow money - I can yell louder I've got the mike -he cannot borrow money cheaper than on the credi t of the province of Manitoba or the credi t of the federal government of Canada.

No way , there isn't a private investor who can do it. - 1 6 1 -

Thursday, 28 February 1980 Mr. Speaker, he talks about the fact that private people in business have co mpassion. Of course they have com passion. But, Mr. Speaker , they are in the busmess of operating a busi ness . It is a business and they have to make money otherwise they can't stay in business. And he talks that they are just as com passionate, that they wi ll care for people .. There was a book published in the Unit ed States, Mr . Speaker, it was called Tender Loving Care --(Interjectio n)- Is that the word? Oh, good.

Maybe he read the book, al though I don't think so or he couldn't have made the speech he made. That book call ed Tender Loving Care, whic h ca me out about three years ago, or four, was a study of what is going on in the United Sta tes in the personal care hom e field, the nursing hom e field; and Mr. Speaker , it was a disgrace to the point where the United States Senate held hearings on it. Because the operators are in the position where they are selling a co mm odi ty like anything else, they're out to make a buck.

And they can make it on the food they serve , or on the le vel of help , or the nu mber of people who are working in the facility, labour costs , or the laundry or servic es they render to people, that is where they make their money. That's the only way . So when the Min ister says, wel l the private sector will do it . And if he says to me, they wil l because they are just as com passionate, etc ., etc ., if he gives that reason I say to hi m they can be co m passionate but they still have to have a botto m line and they have to show a figure whi ch warran t s an investment. Mr .

Speaker, what we are seeing in Man it oba is a privatization, and I ask the Minister, if he is that keen on privately-owned nursing homes, why isn't he stanoing up here saying we need a new hospi tal at the Health Science Ce ntre. am going to suggest to the Ho use why doesn't he say this, that the He alth Science Cent re instead of being rebuilt at publi c expense and financed publicly, why don't we invite som e major private hospi tal owner of the .U nit ed States or anywhere , for that matte r, to come in here and builo us a spanking new hospi tal , ano in order to induce them and in order to attract the m, you know, we are going to be able to get his money , and all we have to do is guarantee hi m, guarantee hi m, that the money he puts in will be repaid wit h the interest rate covered and a profi t on his operation.

That is all we have got to guarantee hi m. Mr. Speaker, you wi ll get lo ts of takers, you wi ll get a lot of takers. Why doesn't he do that? It is the same thing. But, Mr. Speaker, you know, there we re a few private hospi tals in Canada back in the Fortie s and even early Fi fties. They all disappeareo when hospi tal izatio n came in; all of the m. And to think that here in Manitoba we are turning back the clock and we are allowing the private entrepreneur to come in an op erate the personal care homes, nursing homes, whic h is a form of hospi tal.

It may not be acu te care, but it is a form of extended care, a le vel Ill hospi tal; you call it whate ver you want but they are care insti tutio ns and to turn them over to the privat e sector so that they can make money on it , I think is a step backwards and it is a disgrace.

To argue that we need their money is as phony an argument as I have ever heard, be cause they have to go to the lender for it , they have to pay higher interest rat es than the government wo uld have to pay, and all that is going to happen is that the public, the ci tize ns of Manitoba, are going to be paying the higher interest rates than some privat e individu al is going to be paying to the bank. --(Interjectio n)--The Ministe r of Governme nt Servi ces can say, "Now, now, now" all he wants, but that is a fact; that is a fact. Mr.

Speaker, I think that is all I am going to comme nt on the performance of the Ministe r of Heal th. As I say, he read too quickly for me to try to take it down but I am sure it wi ll be in Hansard, and also, of course, there wil l be the Esti ma tes the mselves, at which ti me he wi ll again announce them. I am tolo they are in last year's press releases ano I know that two weeks hence or three wee ks hence, when the Esti mat es are tabled or when the Ministe r gets up to talk about his Esti mates, he wi ll annouce it all over agai n, so I will have plenty of op portunity to deal wi th them again.

There are some other it em s that I would like to mention ano one of the areas that I am concerned wi th, and I think that concern is shared by many people , and that is the raw deal that the city of Winnipeg and its ci tize ns are getting from this government. Mr.

Speaker, this governme nt decid ed that the funds to the ci ty should be maoe in the form of block grants, and I recall when it was done it was said that this was to give them gre ater autonomy, that this was going to give them greater au tonomy and how was it --greater flexibili ty , greater autonomy, and I am trying to think of the descr ip tion I think the First Minist er useo - home rule, that' s right, home rule. You know, Mr. Speaker, what kino of nonsense is home rule? What is the cit y of Wi nnipeg? It is a creature of this Legisla ture.

It has absolutely no ot her legal rig ht to exist except what this Leg islature granted it years ago and contin ues to grant today. It is not -162 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 recognized anywhere, has no recognit ion federally, absolut ely nothing. It is not known, not ment ioned , doesn't exist in The Bri tish North America Act , nowhere. No ci ty , no municip ali ty, no village has any legality except what the Legislature grants it. So what kind of nonsens(. :!:>out home rule ? Wha t kind of nonsense abou t home rule? If you say home rule and you tc�lly mean it , then give them home rule in the full sense of the word.

Le t them raise whatever taxes they want , whether personal or corporate or any other kind , that is home rule, bu t we don't grant them that, of course we don't . MR . GREEN: Don't give them healt h care ei ther. MR. MILLER: And we don't give them anything. MR . GREEN: Or hospi talization. MR . MILLER: You know that is home rule. It makes no sense. No, this is the First Ministe r talk ing abou t home rule. So I know this; you know that; they know it. MR . ENNS: Sidne y, you are not supposed to be coaching him any more. New rules, inde penden t rules , no more coaching Sidney. Ho me rule, home rule. MR .

GR EEN: Hom e rule. You know, that is about the level of understanding, I think, of what is going on , as wit nessed by the Min ister of Pu blic Works. So, Mr. Speaker, the ci tizens of the Cit y of Winnip eg are now facing an impossible position. When the blo ck funding syste m was announced , I recall in this House makmg the statement that I felt that I was shocked at the ci ty's acceptance of it . I used the ter m "dunderheads" to describe their acceptance and I know the Mayor, when he next saw me, sort of clucked at me and said: You know, that is a pretty rough phrase, "dunderheads".

And I sai d: Well, wai t a year and we wi ll see whe ther in fact I was being rough or not. Now, what do you know, now suddenly the Chairman of Fina nce, Works and Operation and ot hers are saying: Hey , this is nonsense. The base was too small to start wi th. The inflationary costs are killing us. MR . FI LM ON: We are not arguing the conce pt. MR . MILLER: The Me mber for River Hei ghts says they are not arguing the concept. What the Member for River Hei ghts is saying 1s this: You give us a lot more money and le t us do wit h it as we will. Mr.

Speaker, that doesn't happen anywhere, any place, nowhere; nobody gets a blank cheque, nobody , nobody. When we said to them we wi ll cover 50 percent of your transit defi ci t, that was a recogni tion that transi t in this day and age, public transit, is an absolute essential. You know , we hear about conservation, we hear Conservative speciali ty, extolling that great budget tha t was int roduced by Mr. Crosbi e, saying that it was a good budget, good tax because it will help to conserve the consump tion of gas and oil. Mr. Speaker, you can help to conserve if you enhance your transi t system.

Don't force the city , as you have, to increase public transit from 25 cents to 35 cents, to 40 cents. I gu ess this year they will do nothing because it's an elec tion year for them, so they are afraid to, bu t next year they wil l be roaring back, and they have no choice. You have choked them. You have choked them. You are forcing them to eli minate the DA SH bus, and I know the Ministe r of Urban Affairs says that 's their decisi on; that 's their decision. You know, Wi nnipeg is autonomous -home rule -it is their decision. Mr .

Speaker, when the Minist er announced block funding and the fact that the 50 percent transit, the arrangements for 50 percent of the payment of the deficit, I asked hi m what about Handi -Transit and he said, "No way, that stays." So you see, one will stay because he wi shes it so, but DA SH, he says, "Oh, that is their own aecisio n." Mr . Speaker, transit in a metropolit an area is essential. If we want to conserve gas and motor oil, then we have to co me up wi th an alternative.

I know there is another way of doing it and that is raise the price so much that people just can't afford it and hopefully those wit h less money wi ll then be the greatest conservers. But if you want this city to sur vive, if you want the downtown area to grow, and for the bl ight to be stopped, and for the north side of Po rtage Avenue to perhaps become rejuvena ted, you have got to have mass transi t syste ms, and it has got to be attractive. The most attractive thing is if it is cheap and less costly, and everything this government has done has forced the city to move in the opposite direction. - 163 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 An d so and again we have the problems that the city of Winnipeg faces and you know I think they have scoured every thing they can. They have gone in to every possible tax, every user fee that I think they can think of; they have already imposed higher dog licences, higher parking me ter lots. They have raised the green fees on golf courses. You have forced them in to nickel and di me people to dea th. But that isn't enough money, there's no way. There's no way that they can make do.

Now the City of Winnipeg has, for a number of years , been askin g for a share in growth taxes and we, Mr. Speaker, gave them the fi rst - and I think the first in Canada - share in the growth taxes. We made available to them two points, now it is 2. 2 points of personal income tax and one point of corporate tax. You know, it is inter esting to me that the moneys that those taxes yield are being used by the Minister of Urban Affai rs to claim so much money is going to the City of Winnipeg this year. That is a statutory amount. He couldn't di vert it if he tried. It is required.

He would have to bring in legislation, and it goes di rectly; the province acts as a conduit. They have no control over the amount at all. They act as a conduit; they can juggle the figures somewhat, but the total amount has to go to all the municipalities, including the City of Winnipeg, and this year it is $14 million, an increase, I believe , of close to $3 million over last year, and it grows as the value of the tax points increases. So, Mr. Speaker, the city is in di re need of ge tting financial support. They have stalled cer tain works. They have not done certai n things.

They have cut down on certai n programs. They are faced with continuous pressure to maintain a level of ser vice, and they are having oifficulty doing it. Ana this govern ment simply sits back and says, "Well, you know, don't look at us. After all, it is your baby. You got $30 million last year and this year you are going to $33 million plus $4 million, which is a rec ognition for a 1979 capital works program." It is nothing to do with the base, it doesn't affect the base, nothing. It is 30 plus 3 ano that's it. Next year it is going to be 33 . Four million for last year's 1979 capital program.

I acknowledge that, but I say to you that it has nothing to do with the base itself, the base from hereon in is 33. Mr. Speaker, the City cannot continue on that basis; they just can't do it, and this gover nment is kidding itself if they think they can ge t away with it. They have fr iends at City Hall, no question. There are people at City Hall . • . Maybe some of them plan to run in the next provincial electi on, I don't know, but they have very good fr ie nds there who are bending over backwards not to em barrass this govern ment.

They really are bending over backwards, but the day is coming when self -preservation is going to catch up on them and boy it is starti ng now. It is starting now. When the Chairman of Finance can make the statem ents he has been making lately, and fell ows, watch it, watch it, because he is a good fr iend of yours, a good supporter. The Mayor is still hanging with you, but he is not going to hang alone, because that is a very uncomfortable spot to be. So you may find the heat is on you and with good reason, and a good reason because you have really turn ed your back on the major city in this province.

Manitoba's unique. I don't think any other province, I'm sure there's no other province which has quite our situation of one major city and a consid erable drop in population to the next largest city and then just a lot of small towns. So this is where the large city is. This is the city from which the province generates most of its income, whether it be in the sale of liquor or in sales tax or in gasoline tax or in income tax or in corpora te tax, the bulk of the money comes fr om resi dents in the City of Winnipeg.

An d you're not playing fair, not with the council and not with the school boards - school boards elsewhere and certai nly not with the City of Winnipeg school board. The City of Winnipeg school board has unique problems, they are problems of a large urban area, they are pr oblems of an inner core. You are payi ng lip ser vice to them; you're giving them a few bucks and hoping that you can buy them off. Mr. Speaker, you are simply perpe tuating Winnipeg's problems and I am surprised that we somehow don't learn fr om past history. Al l you have to do is look to see what's happened in the United States.

We know what happened, we see what happens when you try to either cover something over or push it away or ign ore it. Eventually it blows up in your face and, Mr. Speaker, I pr edi ct that unless there is a change by this provincial government in its deali ngs with the City to make more funds available to both for school purposes, educational purposes and for municipal purposes there will be an explosion in Winnipeg within the next ten years and you will be responsible.

Pe ople are not going to simply be held back or kept pushe d down, expected to live in some cases slum condi tions, horr ible conditions, without resources because you're sayi ng: Well let the City look after that, that's a City responsibility. - 164 -

Thursday, 28 February 19 80 You can't get away wit h it , no t in this day and age. And where it 's been tried the Cit y has had it s seriou s problem, it s explos ion and then the state has had to step in at a far greater cost than if you did it now, early on. So, Mr. Sr,saker, if the Cit y of Winnip eg and its residents are to continue to build in the City of �: '' lipeg a decent place to li ve a place where peo ple want to move to and where business wants to move into, then you've got to do somet hing to correct the imbalance that's created.

You canno t have a Portage Avenue, or a nort h side of Por tage Avenue , which is on the down turn constantly and getting worse. You cannot allow , you cannot simply adopt a position that's the City' s responsibility -le t them do something about it ei ther through zoning or reassessment or this, that, the other. The Cit y as I said earlier on is a creature of this government , of this Legisla ture, and surely in Mani toba we should have a partnershi p betwee n the Cit y and the Province where you build together. This isn't some group out · there, Winni pegers, and we here are legislators.

It's our province, it's ou r ci ty , and ei ther you build it together or it will be a failu re. The Cit y Coun cil needs the full support, not just wit h here's a cheque spend it as you will. That' s not the answ er. Even if that cheque was enough that' s not the answ er.

It isn't enoug h but even if it was surely this Legisla tur e, this gove rn ment, and the Cit y of Winnipeg should be working in close ha rmony in support of one another; help the City of Winnipeg to develop along healt hy normal lines so that it is a city whic h we can be proud of, a ci ty whic h is at tractive, whi ch is a ci ty where because it 's a city and because it att racts like a magnet people from the nort h, people from rural ar eas who need adjustme nts, who need assistance to integrate into the city , then we the Legisla ture should be wi lling to be that resource.

You don't just give it to the Cit y. I never did consider the Cit y and its councillors as somet hing out there, somebody ou t there, another group or ano ther province or another God knows what. They are our cit izens at another level of government; a level of government that is constrained by the pow ers of the Legisla ture. And this Legisla ture can, wi th a stroke of a pen, eli minat e all and any of their powers jus t aut omatically. And the former mayor was right when he used to say: We are totally at your mercy . Well he used to like to exaggerate but legally he was right.

And to suggest that somehow you've given them home rule and that you' ve given them auto nomy. Auto nomy is no thing ••• MR . SPE AK ER: Order please. The honourable member has five min utes. MR . MILL ER: Thank you. Au tonomy is no thing and that's exactly what you give the m, because aut onomy wit hout fiscal means to carry on their responsibility is not au tonomy , it 's no thing. It's a way of getting yourself off the hook and it's typi cal of what this government alw ays does. You know, don't blame us, blame so mebody els e.

If you're not happy wi th the educatio nal sy ste m blame your school board; if you're no t happy wi th servic e in the ci ty blame the ci ty, blame anybody bu t don't blame us. So, Mr. Speaker