Manitoba Hansard — 29 May 1980 (Sitting 68A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-68a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 29 May, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPOR TS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L COM MIT TEES MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Fifth Report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development. MR.

CLERK, Jack Reeves: Your Comm ittee met on Thursday, May 29, 19 80, to consider the Annual Report of Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd., for the period from April 1, 1978 to March 31, 19 79. Having received all information requested by any memb er from Mr. Albert A. Koffm an, President of the Board of Directors of Manitoba Min eral Resources Ltd ., the report, as presented, was adopted by the Comm ittee. MR. McGREGOR: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Radisson, that the report of the commit tee be received. MOTTION presented and carried. MINISTERIA L STA TEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPOR TS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to lay on the table of the House the Provincial Fire Report for Thursday, May 29. Sir, I should also like to make a statement concerning the Garrison Development in the United States. Mr. Speaker, today in Washingt on, D.C., arrangements are being made with the concurrence of the Canadian Em bassy to send to each United States Senator and each Congressman a personal letter over my signature on the subje ct of the Garrison Diversion Project.

With each letter is enclosed a specially prepared brochure explaining our major concern, which is the potential damage to our fishery. I'm tabling the letter and the brochure in sufficient copies for each member to have a copy. By way of background, our government, since taking office has been closely moni toring the progress of the Garrison Project. As members are aware, our provincial concerns are normally commun icated through the Department of External Affairs, with which we have been working in close collaboration.

The Canadian position has been established and expressed, after consultation with Manitoba's Minister of Natural Resources and his department. When appropriations for Garrison have been placed before the Un ited States Senate and House of Representatives, th e Canadian Em bassy in Washington has commun icated our position in strong terms and these commun ications have carried with them the respect which our Emba ssy justifiably commands with the Execu tive and Legislative Branches of the United States Government.

On April 11 , 1980, for example, our Canadian Em bassy wrote to those United States Senators and Congressman, who are members of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee and the Foreign Affairs Comm ittee. To write directly to senators and congressman was an un usual step but we in Manitoba agree that it was fully justified by the serious import of the decisions which will shortly be made by senators and congressman relating to the appropriation of new money for Garrison.

Ambassador Towe, in the course of his letter, made reference to the major danger inherent in a Garrison plan which would use Missouri water to irrigate land in the Hudson Bay Basin. This, of course, is the danger of transfer of fish life and other biota indigenous to the Missouri Basin and the resultant displacement or destruction of the valuable food fish upon which our fishing industry depends. Am bassador Towe concluded, if I may quote his letter that: The only way to elimina te the biota transfer concern is to modify the project to elimina te all inter-basin transfers of water.

In effect, Canada is asking, to quote our brochure, as one neighbour to another, for the rejection of any · Garrison plan which would irrigate land in the Hud son Bay drainage basi n. The danger of pollution of our river systems and of degradation of our municipal water supplies is fully understood by all those who are aware of the effects of major irrigation projects. The danger of the transfer of so called, rough fish, and of parasites and diseases, however, is a much more complex concept and we are aware that it has not been widely understood and appreciated.

For this reason our government requested the concurrence of the Department of External Affairs in the dis tribution of a balanced and informativ e brochure explaining the process of transfer of biota from one drainage basin to another, the resultant displa cement of valuable food fish in our lake systems, and the potential for destruction of our fishery. This, I think you will agree, has been done in the clearest possible terms and in a manner which is intended to be informative and which is technically irrefutable. It is anticipated, Mr.

Speaker, that the Senate and the House of Representatives will be considering the Garrison appropriations during the month of June, and to ensure that the message and the brochure come to the personal attention of each senator and cong ressman, I have written each of them a personal letter, adding our Manitoba voice to that of the Canadian Am bassador, requesting that they do not support a plan which calls for the irrigation in the Hu dson Bay Basin and which would inevitably 4117

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 damage or destroy and im portant sector of our environment. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Well, the information the First Mini ster is presenting to the House is appreciated and certainly follo ws along ·the policy which was originally es tablis hed by the New Democratic Government, that is, of opposing any transfer of waters from the Garrison Diversion Project to the water systems which flow into the province of Manitoba.

I would, however, express some regret that the Progressive Conservative government has seen fit in one case - and it has been discussed before - and that is they opposed th e decision of th e International Joint Commis sion with respect to the Roseau River system and they're now hoping to use the International Joint Commis sion to support the Manitoba position in the Garrison Diversion case. We believe they've seriously jeopardized the possibility of respect for the International Joint Commission by rejecting its advice in one case and attempting to hang their hat on it in another. I would think, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to this announcement, that closer co-operation with the Canadian External Affairs Department would be more valuable than the province of Manitoba attempting to put the case forward on its own. Although any argument is welcomed, I would think a letter like the kind of letter which the Premier is writing, and is reporting to us today that he's writing, would be stronger coming from the Prime Minister of Canada than from the province of Manitoba.

The brochure which the Prem ier is sending to the Senators and to the House of Representatives would carry more weight if that brochure were coming from the government of Canada than from the government of Manitoba.

I would hope that the Premier and the government of Manitoba is not simp ly attempting to grandstand on this issue but would be taking it seriously enough to be working closely with the Canadian government and the Department of External Affairs on this issue and hop efully not carry this into the partisan political arena where the government of Manitoba is reluctant to act through the federal government because it happens to be a Liberal government at this time.

The Garrison Diversion Project is such a dangerous project to Manitoba that there should be no hesitation by government of any stripe to deal in co-operation with the federal government in order to more effectively oppose this kind of measure, rather than attempting to do it on a province basis. One province means very little to the government of the United States but the government of Canada means a lot more, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minister. MR.

LYON: May I rise on a point of privilege in the light of the rather odd remarks- that have just been made in response to the statement, to point out to the honourable member and to the members of the Hou se, who may have been mi slead by his comments, the letter that I have addressed to the U.S. Senators and Congressmen and the brochure have been forwarded to the Department of External Affairs and they're being sent with their approval. Now if my honourable friend doesn't understand that, I'm sure other people will. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland on a point of order. MR.

BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, if that was a point of privilege I believe that I should have the opportunity to answer that point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Points of privilege are not subjects that are similar to statements that require answers. The honourable member on a point of privilege. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The point I was making in response to the First Minister's statement is that his letter would have been more effective if · that letter had been sent from the Prime Minister of Canada than from a Premier of a province, and the brochure which he sent would have been more effective if that brochure had gone from the Department of External Affairs than from the province of Manitoba. That's all I said. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The honourable member did not have a point of privilege. -(l nterjection)- Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry), on behalf of Hon.

Warner H. Jorgenson (Mo rris) introduced Bill No. 72, The Securities Act, 1980 (Recommended by the Honourable the Admini strator of the Government of the province of Manitoba), and Bill No. 76,

An Act to amend The Consumer Protection Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with the question period, I would ask the Honourable Member for Point Douglas to introduce two distinguished visitors in my gal lery. The Honourable Member for Point Douglas. MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is a great pleasure for me to welcome His Excellency, the Ambassador of the Polish Government, the Polish People Republic, Dr. Stanislaw Pawlak and Counsel General from Toronto, Tadeusz Janicki, and, Mr. Speaker, by leave of the House, if I may, to welcome them in the Polish language.

Thank you very much. Wasza Excelencjo! W imi eniu kolegow poslow prowincji Manitoba, pragne Was powitac w jezyku polskim i zyczyc mile go pobytu w naszej prowincji znanej jako Przyjacielska Manitoba. Dziekuje! For the benefit of the rest of the mem bers and the Hansard printers, I would also like to repeat this in English: Your Excellency. I wish to welcome you on behalf of my collegues, the mem bers of the Legislature, in the Polish language and also I wish you a pleasant 4118 • -

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 stay in our province, well known as a Friendly Manitoba. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: At the same time, I would like to welcome 25 students of Grade 5 standing from the D. W. Penner School, under the direction of Mrs. Horn. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mi nister of Finance. We also have 35 students of Grade 5 standing from the R. J. Waugh School, under the direction of Mr. Grant. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. We also have Grade 3 students from Strathmillan School, under the direction of Ms Born.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mini ster of Economic Development. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that the Mini ster of Health supp orted increases to those at the upper level of health care in Manitoba, the doctors, increases at a level which received the support of all members of this House, I believe, is the Mini ster prepared to provide that same support, that same level of increase for health care workers at the lowest level of health care in Manitoba?

Considering the fact that inflation affects all Manitobans, both those at the upper and the lower levels of the economic scale; considering that 10 percent on 50,000 is a 5,000 increase and 10 percent on 10,000 is but a 1, 000 increase, is the Mini ster prepared to support the same level of increase for both those at the upper, as he did support, as those at the lower level of the economic scale in the health care field in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. MR. SH ERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is fully aware that I'm not involved in the negotiations and, if I were, I would not be negotiating in the House, in any event. Those negotiations are proceed ing at the collective bargaining table. I want to say that I think that all Manitobans owe a debt of gratitude to all our health professionals and health care workers for the services that they've performed. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, by way of further supplementary question to the Minister of Health, in view of the fact that the Minister of Health just said that he was not involved in the bargaining process and in view of the statement this morning by the Public Relations Director for the Health Sciences Centre that one of the major reasons that the Centre is unable to offer further increases to their health care workers is the budgetary limitations that are imp osed by the provincial government, is the Mi nister, in view of that statement, prepared to review and to release the 8 percent ceiling which he has imposed upon the hospitals and personal care homes in this province in order to ensure that they can bargain freely and in good faith with their employees, without the restrictions imposed by this Minister to health care in the province of Manitoba?

MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen that statement . by the Public Relations Director of the Health Sciences Centre. I know of a statement made and reported in the media by the Adminis trator or the President of the Health Sciences Centre, which was precisely in the opposite vein. So I'll have to check the comment that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is referring to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a final supplementary. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, by way of a final further supplementary to the Min ister.

Is the Minister prepared at this stage, in view of the continuation of the spread of the strike in the province of Manitoba and the effect that this has in respect to all Manitobans, is the Mi nister prepared to review and to exercise some discretion and flexibility pertaining to the 8 percent ceiling which he has imposed upon health care institutions in this province, he being the Min ister that is responsible for health care in Manitoba, and no one else? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly do not suggest for one moment th at I do not have responsibility, and primary responsibility, vested In me through the people of Manitoba up to this point in time at any rate, ·f or the qu ality and the performance of the health care system generally in the province. I am as concerned as the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is, I assure him, with the . maintenance of the necessary standards of health care to ensure patient safety and life. The situation is serious. It's also fluid, Mr. Speaker, it changes or has the potential for change hourly. We are monitoring it hourly.

I give the Honour able Leader my undertaking that it is not out of my attention at any hour of the day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I was asked a question the other day by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition as to the date on which a possible conference of the First Mini sters of the country would take place with respect to the Constitution. I ind icated to him that as and when I received a commun ication from the Prime Mi nister I would inform him. Mr.

Speaker, I can advise the Leader of the Opposition that I received a communic ation this morning from the Prime Minister advising that the meeting of the 11 First Minis ters on the Constitution will take place in Ottawa on Monday, June 9th of this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary to the Mini ster's information which 1 thank him for, can the First Minister advise whether or not any decision has yet been related to him on 4119

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 the part of the Prime Minister as to the inclusion within the de legations involved in developing constitutional format, opposition leaders, both at the federal and at the provincial levels? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we have had no such indication as yet from the Prime Minister or the other Premiers. It would have to be, of course, a joint decision to be made by all of them.

As I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition the other day, however, the first mee ting that we are holding will be the 11 First Ministers themselves with no other Ministers or assistants in attendance, so far as I am aware at this time. I should add that I'm also advised it will be a closed meeting at 24 Sussex Street. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. On Tuesday last, the Minister appealed for assistance from all sides of the House to try to solve this very difficult and serious situation that we have.

It is in this spirit that I would like to make the following suggestion. And to be sure that I am in order, Sir, I will do it in a form a question. Would the Minister be willing to say very clearly today - I don't think there's any need to see what has been said, just in case there is a mis un derstanding - that the negotiators can negotiate in good faith without any fear, and still make sure that they are doing that very responsibly, but without any fear of being held back by any ceiling? If, for some reason or other that is higher than the ceiling, that the hospitals and the programs will not suffer.

In that spirit then, negotiation can go and could appear to go also a lot more smoothly. Mr. Speaker, also, would the Minister consider using his good office also to suggest to the hospital to take, until this is settled, the offer of the Union, to accept the offer of the Union, that is, to provide essential services in all hospitals in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, on the first part of the honourable member's question, I can only say what I've said before, that we have not issued any instructions relative to the bargaining that's going on at the present time, now or in the preceding weeks leading up to it. I think that I am not in a position to say or to suggest that the ad mini strator or the management of any particular facility should not, and would not, of their own volition, have a sense of parameters in mind having the knowledge of their own operations and their own responsibilities.

I can't inject myself into the reasoning that the administrations of individual hospitals bring to their fiscal affairs. On the second point, Mr. Sp eaker, the situation with respect to other Winnip eg hospitals is not similar to the Health Sciences Centre at the moment. The Health Sciences Centre is -the only hospital in the city of Winnipeg that is experiencing a strike at the moment as the honourable member knows. In the rural facilities, each facility is making that decision with respect to designated essential services for itself; some are doing so, some are not doing so.

Most are operating with the assistance of volunteers. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister did not tell me anything I didn't know. Starting with the second question, my suggestion, and I asked him, would he not consider - and he could use his good office, after all the care of the patients is the number one concern. Could he use his good office to suggest very strongly to the hospitals, and I didn't mention Winnipeg, in Manitoba, th ose that are on strike, to accept the offer of the union. I'm not saying force, but to suggest very . . . Mr. Speaker, the Minister doesn't want.

Does the Minister realize that he stated that he does not want to inject himself. Mr. Sp eaker, does the Min ister realize, by statements that were made in this House, he is very much involved. He has stated in this House that one-third of the total budget is enough and I am not suggesting that he lift any maximum, I'm suggesting and I'm asking him ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. May I suggest to the honourable member he is debating rather than seeking information. This is the question period and the time when we are allowed to seek information from the members of the Treasury Bench.

If the honour able mem ber is seeking information I wish he would place his question now. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, certainly I could re-word my question but to have the affect and explain what I have in mind it might be a little difficult. Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave of the House then to have a little bit of leeway. We were asked to co-operate and it's in that spirit that I'm making this observation and I can ask it in the form of a question and I will try, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Minister realize that by stating in this House that one-third of the budg et for health is enough; and does the Min ister realize that last year - and any time that the question of budget for hospitals were brought in that the Minister said that we will be very firm on this - does the Minister realize also that in the past that has been done, even though there is a maximum. But what I am suggesting to the Minister and I ask him if he would consider to state, not necessarily that he's raising this, to say that they go ahead and act in good faith.

They wouldn't necessarily be bound by that and if so, if they have to take more than 8 percent, to assure the hospitals and the people of Manitoba that we'll not have to borrow that from programs and the programs of the hospital would not suffer. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, I appreciate the counsel of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface and the spirit in which he offers it, but I still suggest, Sir, that to accept that suggestion and commit myself to it would in fact be

an act of direct intervention into the bargaining process. I can't do that, Mr. Sp eaker. That is being done at the bargaining tables and I have not received any entreaty for any other kind of activity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. 4120

Thursday,29May,1980 MRS. JU NE WESTBURY: Mr. Sp eaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Health. Would the Minister please advise the House what is being done about surgery? Is surgery being cancelled? Is surgery continuing as usual? Could we have a brief report on that please? MR. SH ERMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, some surgery, emergency surgery, is continuing at the Health Sciences Centre at the present time. Of course there is no elective surgery being performed. The surgery volume that can not be accommo dated at the Health Sciences Centre is being accommoda ted at St.

Boniface and the question of elective surgery has been moved down the priority admissions list very sharpl y at St. Bon iface so as to be able to accommo date the necessary acute and emergency cases that are dispatched from the Health Sciences Centre. Up to this point in time, Mr. Sp eaker, the arrangement is working but I want to repeat what I said a few moments ago, that there is certainly a potential for a change in this situation virtually hour by hour. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Sp eaker, I wonder if the Hono urable Mi nister would call breast cancer operations elective surgery and brain operations elective surgery.

My understanding is that all breast cancer operations are being cancelled and brain operations have been cancelled. All ambu lances are being turned away from the Health Sciences Centre. Can the Mi nister assure us that all of these operations which are hardly called elective surgery, are being looked after elsewhere, at St. Boniface or otherwise, because that is not the im pression that the surgeons have at the Health Sciences Centre. MR. SHERMAN: Up to the present time, yes, Mr. Speaker, they have been, and those decisions are not made in my office as I am sure the honourable member realizes.

They are made by the medical chiefs, clin ical chiefs, and indi vidual physicians responsible for and to the patients themselves. I repeat, I don't like to say anything declamatory about the security of the situation. It could be different an hour or two hours from now and it is being monitored on a continual basis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister can confirm that all surgery was cancelled at Grace Hospital at 3:00 o'clock yesterday afternoon.

Would he also comment on the fact that an unusually high number of therapeutic abortions, 28, were com pleted at Health Sciences Centre in one day immediately before the strike because if there is a delay owing to the strike, there is a potential danger to the patients; 28 is a very high number for one day. At what point does the Minister consider that we are in an emergency situation, Mr. Speaker? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, we went into an emergency situation at 12 :01 on Tuesday morning.

The question is whether we are in a crisis situation or not and if we are, we will I am sure, as members of the Manitoba Legislature, all of us, work together to take what action is required to resolve that crisis.

Up to this point in time I am assured that the matter of patient life and safety is still protected and still guaranteed, but there is no question in the area of obstetrics and gy necology and therapeutic abortions, that there has been a reduction in the patient load and it's being reduced to a very minimal numb er because the Women 's Pavilion at the Health Sciences Centre is directly involved in the strike situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I posed a question and a supplementary question yesterday to the Mini ster of Agriculture.

I wonder if he has information on the questions that I posed, at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, that information will be available from the department later on this week or early next week. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the tenor of the questions posed this week by opposition members, I wonder if the Mini ster of Agriculture could enquire, through officials of his department, as to the numb er of hours that farmers have worked, in spite of the very limit ed assistance that they get from Crop Insu rance, how many hours farmers have worked to put in crops of rye that were a total failure and that they got absolutely no pay for. MR. DOWNEY: I would check that out also, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Elmwood on a point of order. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Sp eaker, we've comp lained about this sort of setup questioning that takes place every day in the House. I think the Speaker should review the daily questions put by the Member for Rock Lake and the daily answers by the Minister of Agriculture. I think he should look at the tapes and forward them to Hee-Haw because that's where they belong. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I think it clearly has been indicated in the past, members on both sides of this House have the right to ask questions of the Treasury Bench and particularly members on this side of the House have the right to ask questions pertaining to agriculture in Churchill and other issues in which members opposite don't appear to have any interest. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Elmwood on the point of order. 4121

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. DOERN: If we're going to have daily questions in collusion between the back bench and the front bench, let the Minister make his statement under Min isterial Statements and th en we'll have an opportunity to reply. That is the proper procedure. This is nothing but a holl ow sham that we are subjected to on a daily basis. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I've listened to the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Elm wood. I find the honourable member has no point of order.

In fact, I find the honourable member has brought discredit to this House by the tenor of his statements and I would hope that he would choose his language very wisely in the future. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that the President of the Health Sciences Centre has publicly stated that the Health Sciences Centre already has a deficit of some 500,000 and is projecting another deficit for this year, can the Minister indicate whether in fact the level of hospital funding by this government has been insufficient and has thus put the Health Scienc es Centre into an impossible situation and thus is not in the position to bargain in good faith with respect to its hospital workers because of these accumula ted deficits? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Health. MR.

SHERMAN: That case has not been put to me by the Health Sciences Centre, Mr. Speaker. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Minister if he would check the record in terms of their deficit. And could he tell us also, how many other hospitals in Manitoba are presently experiencing deficits as of this year, as of right now before negotia tio ns, and how many of tho se hospitals are involved in negotiations and thus find themselves in an untenable position with respect to negotiations because they have deficits before they even enter the negotiations? MR.

SHERMAN: I can't tell the honourable memb er at the moment, Mr. Speaker, how many hospitals are expecting to come in with deficits, or project deficits, and appeal their budgets because that process is only barely under way and it's been interrupted to some degree at the present time, by these circumstances, as you'll appreciate. But I can tell the honourable member that last year there were, I think, approximately five hospitals in Manitoba that came in in excess of their budgets, that came in with deficits, out of the 90-some hospitals that operate in the province. MR. PARASIUK: Yes.

I'd like to ask the Minister if he can confirm that on Sunday, May 18 th, CUPE sent a letter to the Manitoba Health Organizations indic ating to them tha t they. were prepared to provide essential services to Manitoba He alth Organization hospitals even though the Manitoba Health Organizations had rejected their offer to sign an agreement for essential services, as they had with the Health Sciences Centre. Would the Min ister confirm that and would he please investigate as to why the Manitoba Health Organizations has not even had the courtesy to reply to thi s conscientious positive offer on the part of CUPE? MR.

SHERMAN: I believe that CUPE did send such a letter, Mr. Speaker, but I do not handle the hospitals' correspondence for them. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the Minister indicate the extent and the effect of the recent rainfalls on the drought conditions in rural Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Min ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as the members are aware, some of the different areas of the province, the eastern region received a fair amount of rainfall, however, the western part of the province, the extreme western region of the province, has not received sufficient rainfall to this point to be of much good for plant growth, for either livestock or crop production. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Memb er for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Honourable Mi nister of Health.

I would like to ask him whether he has asked the Manitoba Health Services Commission to advise him why they have not contacted the chairman or the staff of the Winnipeg Ambula nce Services in the course of their study of ambulance services throughout Manitoba. In this regard, Mr. Speaker, I draw the Honourable Min ister's attention to a news report in today's edition of the Winnipeg Free Press, indicating that the Amb ulance Commission, Mr. Ragsdill has had no contact or communication . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please.

May I point out to the honourable member it's the responsibility of the mem ber to ch eck the accuracy of a newspaper report. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I did not ask him to confirm a report. I just pointed out that had been confirmed by a newspaper.

We have contacted the Winn ipeg Ambula nce Commission and they advised that they have not received any notice and I would ask the Minister if he has looked into this matter to find out why, after all these months of enquiry, nobody from the Health Services Commis sion has taken time to contact the primary ambu lance service of this province. MR. SHERMAN: I'll ask, Mr. Speaker, but I'm sure the honourable member has had similar experiences in his political career and his legal career. I now that I have in my political career where stories, relative to areas in which he's involved, or I'm involved, are 4122

ThursdaJ, 29 MaJ, 1980 done without our necessarily receiving any contact or comment or reaction, but I will certainly ask. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Mem ber for St. Bon iface asked me yesterday whether we still followed the practice of having an observer from MHSC at wage contract negotiations in the health field. In connection with the central bargaining table, MHO and the rural facilities, there is an observer there. At HSC and CUPE negotiations, the MHSC received no inv itation to send an observer. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, a sup plementary.

I would ask the Minister of Health whether he can advise us now of the structure of the investigative group, the number of persons participating, their identities and whether or not he will be instructing them to allow public participation in the course of these investigative proceedings? MR. SHERMAN: No, I can't answer any of those questions, Mr. Speaker, but I will do so over the course of the next little while.

We may not be in a position to identify the kinds of personnel from a public hearing point of view, that the honourable member is referring to, this is being done by the Insured Services Division of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and the ambulance personnel within it. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Member for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: In view of the non-response of the Honourable Minister, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask him whether he would like to reconsider his remarks, made in the course of debate during the Private Members' Hour on the ambulance resolution, as to whether or not there is indeed an ambulance study now ongoing in this province? Is he willing to categorically confirm that such a study is now ongoing, or will he look into this matter to establish whether or not any research or work has actually taken place to date. MR. SHERMAN: The Manitoba Health Services Commission was instructed, in February, Mr.

Speaker, to undertake such a survey and study and to bring in recommendations for consideration by government by next September. I haven't checked on it during the past few days, I'm sure that it's in place and ongoing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Education. My question arises out of the und erstanding that there are approximately 235 students that are being held out of school at Winn ipegosis and that picketing is taking place at the moment.

I would ask the Minister if he could advise the House if he has received any request from the residents there for his assistance and his office to assist in resolving a dispute that has arisen, apparently in the Winn ipegosis area. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Education. HON. KEI TH A. COSENS (Gimli ): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have been in contact with the school board in that particular district and have urged them to meet with the concerned parents to try to come to some settlement on the particular controversy that exists there now. MR. ADAM: A supplementary.

In view of the fact that his efforts have been futile to this point in time, and in view of the escalating situation there at Winnip egosis, I'm wondering if the Minis ter would attempt to use his further good offices and leadership to try and resolve this dispute because it is the students that are suffering and it seems to me that the School Act does provide for the Minister to appoint an arbitrator or conciliation officer to try and resolve this serious situation that's taking place at the present time in Winnip egosis. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I un derstand that the local school board will be making a statement in regard to the situation later today. Perhaps after the honourable member has heard that statement he can judge whether my efforts have been futile or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance or the Mini ster of Economic Development.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Agriculture has committed himself to investigate the hours put in by the farmers who are free enterprisers, to get a meaningful comparison, could . either Minister find out how many hours the members in the free enterprise system are working also, those that are not on salary but working for themselves? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mi nister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, that would be about as difficult as trying to find out whether members of the Legislature put in the alleged 24-1/2 hours that we're supposed to put in here. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, in which way would finding out the hours that the farmers have been doing be any easier? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Minne dosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Highw ays. I wonder if he could inform the House of the current situation of the ferry service at Cross Lake. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Highways. HON. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, right at the present moment, we haven't been able to continue the operation of the ferry at Cross Lake. 4123

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 We've undertaken a move from the existing location and have got the ferry in position to link up with the new road which was constructed over winter and will be finished, hopefully, by mid to the end of next week and we are in the process also, Mr. Speaker, of constructing new ferry approach ramps on both sides of the river so that we can use the ferry to return full service to the communi ty. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a supple mentary to the Ho nourable Mi nister of Northern Affairs.

I wonder if he could inform the House how this has affected the water services in the community of Cross Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Northern Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As a result of the low water, of course, there is a problem to the water supply service. The original installation didn't take into account low level water intakes and we have a temporary subme rsible pump in place which will handle the situation until fall but if the low water continues until fall we'll have to make some other arrangement by that time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Minnedosa with a final supplementary. MR. BLAKE: Yes , a final su pplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. I wonder if he could inform the House what affect this has had on the fishing facilities in the community and to the Cross Lake loggers operation. MR. GOURLAY: Well of course it has seriously affected the fishing there, Mr. Speaker, and also with respect to Cross Lake loggers , on ce the transportation system is in place, with respect to what the Minister of Hig hways indicated, the finished product will be able to be moved out to market.

However, the intake of logs at the other end is a problem and we're looking at arrangements to get th ose into place so that they can be handled at the mill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I asked a question to the Min ister of Agricultur e several days ago, during the estimates, which he undertook, in light of the serious cash flow and depression of cow prices on the market, is the Minister prepared to make a statement with respect to the Beef Income Assurance Plan? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mi nister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as the member is well aware, we'll be leaving the House, I presume we'll be leaving the House, to go into Comm ittee of Supply where I could respond to that particular question at that particular point but at this time I'm not prepared to make a statement as we're still reviewing what we talked about and there is no change to this particular point. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister corresponded with the federal Minister of the Wheat Board concerning the alleged increases in bread prices as a result of the change in domestic prices of wheat?

Has he corresponded with him with respect to objecting to the increases that are proposed in bread prices, with respect to the low increases in wheat prices, so that the farmers aren't blamed for the increase in bread prices as a result of the change in the price of wheat? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, did not commu nicate to the Mini ster responsible for the Wheat Board when it was indicated that the bread price would rise, but I did respond to the federal Minister or communic ate with him some time ago when the domestic price of wheat was not increased to help the farm community which I think it should have happened a lot sooner than it did. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Min ister of Consumer Affairs. Is the Min ister of Consumer Affairs prepared to investigate any future increases of bread prices that may be over and above what would be incurred with the increased cost of wheat? HO N.

WARNER F. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, it appears to me as though that question is somewhat hypothetical. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Hig hways. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. Mr.- Speaker, I'd like to make a correction in Hansard that appears on Page 4043, the second line in the first column. It is not dry clear, Mr. Speaker, it is Dyclear and that same spelling error appears at a later date in that paragraph. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the Minister. The Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General responsible for the Liquor Control Comm ission and ask him whether it is a serious offence to exceed the prescibed seating limits in a licensed dining room. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the question is, I submit, out of order, suggesting that I offer a legal opinion. Obviously, the member wishes to follo w it up with some specific example. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister responsible for the Liquor Control Commission to take a look at the prescribed seating limits in the ML As' dinin g room and the numb er of chairs, because it exceeds it by at least six or seven, and I assume that is in violation of the Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Churchill. 4124

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Hig hways. I would ask the Minister if he can indicate if the ferry to Split Lake is in service now. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minis ter of Hig hways. MR. ORCH ARD: Mr. Speaker, I'll check and provide that answer tomorrow. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would have hoped the Minister would have the answer to that; perhaps a member from the other side can ask it and I will get a qu icker answer. My supplementary is to the Minister of Health.

Can the Minister indicate if there are any areas, any hospitals in the province, in which the essential services are not being provided adequately to this point by the unions that are out on strike? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. MR. SHER MAN: I think it would be imprudent and impolitic to answer that question at this juncture, Mr. Speaker. I think it will unfold. The response that the honourable member is seeking will unfold during the next one or two days. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would hope that the Minister does not have information in his possession that he is not sharing with this House, as it is a very im portant subject. I would ask the Minister then if he Is prepared to comment on the fact that the unions, thems elves, are providing essential services in all areas where they have been asked to do so. Would he be able to confirm that to date - {Interjection)- the First Minister says, oh, knock it off. I assure the First Minister that this is a very important situation, very important to the mem bers on this side of the House, to ensure that th ose essential services are in place.

Would the Minister care to comment as to whether or not the unions are in fact in good faith, as they are bargaining in good faith, providing essential services when requested by the hospitals, thems elves, and that there has been no breakdown in that system to date? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHER MAN: I think that's generally true, Mr.

Speaker, and certainly the CUPE Union has written me and MHO officials to advise that they are prepared to take care of any evacuation such as might be required in terms of hospital populations in centres like Kenora, etc., but it's a difficult question to answer at this juncture, because there is still considerable dispute in some areas as to what is a designated category of essential work, who is and who is not an essential designee, in the opinion of the union and in the opinion of management. That's not entirely resolved yet. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. A question to the Minister of Finance. Could he advise as to whether anyone has been denied access to Potash Lease No. 5, which has been in the Mining Recorder's office for more than five years, prior to last Tuesday when I was denied access to that document ? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minis ter of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Not offhand, I can't, Mr. Speaker. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you. A further question to the Min ister of Finance.

Can he advise as to whether he is now prepared to release a copy of Potash Lease No. 5, and if not, can he advise the House as to the amount of money payable yearly by Prairie Potash to the Government of Manitoba pursuant to that lease? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the latter part of the member's question as notice.

With regard to the first part of the question, as I indicated the other day, the reference that he has made to the lease, or whatever the proper name for it is, it was not a document that had historically been tabled with the Mining Recorder's office and the information I gave him the other day was information which I subsequently was able to confirm. I haven't had an opportunity to yet examine it fully. I gave him the undertaking that I would, and I'l l report back to him as soon as I have further information. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The ti me for question period having expired, proceed with Orders . of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) The amount of money spent since May 14, 1980 on the public ity campaign for program changes included in the White Paper on Tax Credit Reform, and more specifically, the amount spent for:

a) purchase of advertising in daily newspapers;

b) purchase of advert ising in weekly, bi- weekly, and monthly newspapers;

c) purchase of advertising on radio stations;

d) purchase of advertising on television stations;

e) creative work for production, lay-out, etc., of advertising and other publicity;

f) services of advertising agencies or other services required for placement of advertising;

g) printing of brochures; and

h) writing and editing of material in brochu res, advertisements, etc. 2) The total amount of money budgeted for the publicity campaign for program changes included in 4125

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 the White Paper on Tax Credit Reform, and more specifically, the amount budge ted for:

a) purchase of advertising in daily newspapers;

b) and all other items from number 1 above, (

a) through (h). 3) The department or agency of the provincial government on whose behalf each particular transaction was made. 4) The application forms provided in the brochures made available in response to requests arising from the May 22, 19 80 advertisement in the Winnipeg daily newspapers. 5) The programs for which specific eligibility criteria is available in the brochu res made available in response to requests arising from the May 22, 1980 advertisement in the Winnipeg daily newspapers. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I find some difficulty with this Order.

I would assume that honourable mem bers, having this from May 22 to the present day, May 29; is that correct? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that it would be self-apparent to the date of the acceptance of the Order for Return. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: We'll accept the Order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I think before the Honourable Minister can accept it, the Order should be read from the Chair. Is that dispense? Agreement on that? Then the Honourable Minister has indicated he's willing to accept it.

Is that agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Finance that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MA TTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: I would like to speak, Mr. Speaker, on a point of grievance on a matter that concerns me very much.

In this House we've heard the words overworked and underpaid and I refer this to our northern Manitobans who are fighting fires for the minimum wage of 3. 15 a hour. The First Minister said: I'm glad that you aren't fighting fires. I have fought fires, Mr. Speaker. In 1960, the early Sixties, there was a fire in Snow Lake, much the same as the fire today, that didn't receive the public ity these fires are receiving. My job was to hold the fire, contain the fire so it wouldn't attack Snow Lake.

It was across a bog with deep mus keg 200 or 300 yards wide and the fire wasn't dangerous and we wer en't working that hard. We decided that most of the crew would go for lunch and a skeleton crew would remain. The people just got back from lunch hour and we started out; the wind came up, Mr. Speaker, and it was unbel ievable. It would take the tops of trees, high spruce trees, pick them up and fire them from 100 to 200 or 300 yards over this bog.

The people who stayed were trapped - some of them were trappers, some were experienced bushmen - they crossed the bog using poles as snowshoes, they got across that way. The mine rs of course went down the shaft. This was dangerous because if the fire went over the shaft, it would have sucked the air up and they would have died from lack of oxygen. But, Mr. Speaker, the danger is there. You can't describe going for hours and hours and hours in intense heat; you can't take your shirt off, of course, because you would burn. If you start drinking water there is no stopping.

You sleep when you get a chance; you change your clothes when you get a chance, until you come to the point of exhaustion. All this is done, Mr. Sp eaker, by fire fig hters, predominantly native fire fighters. Mr. Speaker, the dangers are obvious. If you get cut off you've had the course; if you get cut off in a bad fire you don't have a chance. If you do get out and have severe burns, Mr. Speaker, I think you'd wish that you had perished because they are the slowest hardest wounds to heal, this is the danger. For 3.15 an hour, Mr.

Speaker, it's the second lowest in Canada and I won't go over the rates again, but I would say that in Alberta it's exactly double. Mr. Speaker, these people have no paid holidays; they have no comp ensation, they're on their own; no sick pay; they have no security whatsoever. The only thing, Mr. Speaker, -(I nterject ion)- and no overtime in our province. The only thing they get, Mr. Speaker, is a short notice in the daily paper: Hats off to fire fighters. But once this fire is over, Mr. Speaker, and the glamour is over, they are reduced to another state where they are just called upon when they are needed. Mr.

Speaker, we aren't the only province that's having dif ficulty, trouble with fires. Our sister province, Saskatchewan, is having the same problem. The only thing here I see, Mr. Speaker, in this research we have done, they have 90 fires, we have 68; they have 19 hel icopters, we have 14; they have 6 water bom bers, we only have 3; they have 50 bulldo zers working, Mr. Speaker, we have 10. Mr. Speaker, the fire is out of control in 16 and 23. - (Interjection)- I beg your pardon? Mr. Speaker, excuse me speaking while I'm having these rude interruptions. Mr.

Sp eaker, I know some members tha t of government would quite happily, willingly, pay these people more money. But the government, as a whole, Mr. Speaker, they're callous, no feel ing. no heart, and most im portant, no guts. Mr. Speaker, when you speak of overworked, underpaid, we have to compare with some thing. I'll go right to the very top, Mr. Speaker, the wages paid to the top dogs in corporations. Here are the Ford people, Mr. Speaker: Philip Caldwell, President. In a year he makes 1, 030, 10 0; he got a 52,000 raise in 1978. The vice-president was lower paid, he only received 999,000.00.

International Harvester - this should interest you farmers, Archie McArd le, president, 1, 907,000.00, he got a 830,000 raise in 4126

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 19 78. General Motors, if you buy a Chev you know what you're paying for. Thomas Murphy, Chairman, 975 ,000.00; president Elliott Estes, 925,000.00, he got a 15 ,000 raise in 1978. The list goes on and on, Mr. Speaker, but I think I've made my point that the comparison between the haves and the have nots is great. How can this government, Mr. Speaker, and this isn't the only government, the federal is the same, vote themselves a 50 percent raise.

This is when they advise us, in the anti-inflation days, when they lost the government, they were the first ones to vote for thems elves a 50 percent raise and this government is just as bad. -(I nterjection)- They are going to give them selves, the backbenchers, us, 2,600 raise. How do you reason, how do you feel? The Cabinet is out of sight and the First Minister, my God, there's a man who's underworked and overpaid. And the Honourable Minister of Labour, Mr.

Speaker, who has left the House, so often mentions when he speaks to the labour people, of having unionism in his blood, the feeling he has for the common people and the imp ortant part that he's played in labour. He boasts of the good relationship between management, labour, and hi mself. My God, Mr. Speaker, he was a bigger hypocrite than your former Minister who did nothing. -(I nterjection)- Well, it's true though. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask, beg, demand, that these people who perform so well under such adverse conditions be paid a higher wage. And not like the Premier said, he will look into it. Mr.

Speaker, that Minister of Labour before, she told me for six months she would look into who would be in charge, who would have the say in the mines - jurisdiction. I asked the question six times in over a year and she is still looking into it as far we they know. -(I nterjection)- We had no trouble when we were government with this, no trouble, no sweat. There were pressures on to do it at that time. - (Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, these people feel bad about this. But the control by a leader who is heartless, the Minister of Labour whose heart is as hard as his brain is small, and the only thing I could do, Mr.

Speaker, is advise this Minister to resign and at least put some one there. We've reached the bottom of the barrel and we can go no further down. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. QUEST ION put MOTION carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Commi ttee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. CONCURRENT CO MMIT TEES OF SU PPLY SU PPLY - AG RICU LTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the comm ittee to order. We'll return to page 9, 6.(d)(1) and (2).

I think there were some unanswered questions or some thing. The Honourable Minister. HON. JIM DOWNEY (Arthur): Yes, Mr. Chairman. The question I believe from the Member for Lac du Bonnet was on the question of appeals. I indicated, I believe, there were nine; in further review there were 10 appeals. All but one of those were to do with the Egg Producers Marketing Board, all except one. MR. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): All except one. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, there was one to do with the Chicken Producers Marketing Board and that was on quota transfer and it was denied. Mr. Chairman, I don't have the details of those.

It was in a hearing that was held and this is the results of it. MR. USKIW: And what were the others? MR. DOWNEY: All the rest were Egg Producer Marketing Board. Several of them were quota review, quota transfer and quota allocation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. What ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We returned to 6.(d)(1) and (2). There were some questions unanswered as we passed the resolution, but left these to be ... MR. EINARSON: Because, Mr. Chairman, we have passed that resolution. MR. USKIW: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: But also we give leave to come back to it.

The Honourable Minister. MR. EINARSON: Okay. All right. MR. DOWNEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. · I agreed, the questions were on the hearings held by the Natural Products Marketing Council, I believe, and I agreed to provide the Member for Lac du Bonnet with the allocations or the appeals that were held. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, yes, I would like to ask the Minister whether any of the appeals here were rulings which resulted in a change of the board's position. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I think I indicated to him there were some appeals that were granted. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, of these 10 that we are now discussing, were these rulings against the particular marketing board or substantiating the marketing board's positions? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, both ways. MR. USKIW: All right. I have one request then, Mr. Chairman, and that is whether or not the Minister would agree, at whatever date is convenient to him, to file with our side a copy of all the transactions where there has been an appeal, the complaint and the resolution, and so on. 4127

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm not specifically clear on what the Act calls for, whether in fact that information can be . . . But they .are hearings and I will endeavour to get that information for him. If it's possible I'll provide it for them. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don't know why the Minister would not want to make it public • . . MR. DOWNEY: I didn't say I didn't want to. MR. USKIW: I'm not aware of any

section of the Act which prohibits the Min ister from revealing that information to the Legislature. It's a public piece of information in the sense that people filing appeals do so before a pu blicly appoi nted body which is answerable to this Legislature through the Minister and, therefore, if we were denied the right to enquire as to the results of any of th ose appeals, then we would, in essence, be precluded as legislators from perusing the operations of his department or this section. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would see no problem in providing the information that is being requested on the appeals that he's requesting. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(d)(1) -p ass; 6.(d)(2)- pass. We'll go on to page 10 and Resolution 12, 7.(a)(1) pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, just to start things out, could the Minister give us the usual information with staffing complement, for the whole division, what are the increases and the thrusts? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm surprised that the members of the commit tee want to hear another long opening speech of mine but I'm quite prepared to give him one.

I'll have to get a glass of water first. MR. URUSKI: We always like to hear you speak that's all. MR. DOWNEY: I'm gl ad to hear tha t. Mr. Cha irma n , the member asked for a staff complement. Within this part of the department there's 121.1 4 staff man years which is up from 11 9.26 from last year, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Mini ster please repeat that. I just mis sed that, I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: Was that a question, I'm not sure? The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Could the Mini ster repeat that staffing complement again, Mr. Chairman, because I'm sorry I missed that? MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I know that we have a lim ited amount of time for doing estimates and I would appreciate the members paying attention to the answers that I'm providing. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I just couldn't hear. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Ch airman, the staff complement this year is 121.1 4 com pared to 11 9.26 last year, of which there' s an increase of one engi neer and support, Mr. Chairman. One engi neer and support. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7(a)(1) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Mi nister was going to give us an overview of this division. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Ch airman , basically in my opening com ments I indi cated , in the overall statement, that agriculture, land and water division of the department was one of the major areas of thrust, that I feel it's im portant that we continue to expand and further utili ze the resource bases that are available to the agricultural community, particularly where it relates to agriculture and water services and supplying of that kind of infrastructure for the development of agriculture production.

The main area of course has to be to further work with the councils who are involved at the local level, to work through our agricultural department people who are providing programs or helping to deliver programs that will expand the uses for the soils that we have throughout the province.

Sour ce water development for irrigation being one of the major priorities, with the small community sewage and water development and to continue on with the community wells and pipeline program that we put in place; not particularly the wel l program but the pipeline program which is important to make available to small commun ities and/or farmsteads, who are unable to provide water on their farms, that in fact there is a program to assist them for water movement.

I bel ieve th at given some supp ort in these particular areas that they can build or develop their long-term equipment; that we will offset some of the problems that are created in times such as we have seen in the past few weeks of the extreme drought conditions; that if we have dependable water supplies developed, dependable pip eli nes and equipm ent in place to del iver those waters to the particular farmsteads that have needed them, or the commun ities, that in fact in the long-term basis it alleviates some of the need for emergency assistance programs, which in the long run cost taxpayers the same kinds of money.

So to expand the agricultural base and further utilize the water that is available for agricultural commun ity or to broaden the use of water and opportunities for the land use; keeping in mind that conservation of both the land and water is a pretty major part of the overall objective as well as fully utilizing the resources that we have. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, is there any changes or any surveys going on within the department with respect to iden tifica tion.

For exam ple, in the Department of Hig hways there is a continuous survey going on in terms of identifying the natural resources and potential of sand and gravel. Is there an inventory or a survey going on within the Department of Agriculture with respect to the water supply sources that can be determined as to pattern within the province? Is there such a survey under way now? 4128

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: Not directly within the Department of Agriculture, Mr. Chairman, that is done by the Department of Natural Resources but commun icated through to the Department of Agricultur e. We actually don't have a survey team that are identifying water supplies, but we get that information from the Department of Natural Resources. MR. URUSKI: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)(1)- pass; 7.(a)(2)- pass; 7.(bX 1) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the Agri-Water Branch, is this the area where the staff deal with the on-farm applications for water supply and the rural water services? Would this be the branch that deals with the on-farm site inspection and the like? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Can the Mi nister gi ve us an indication of the scope of the program that was carried on last year and what is planned for this year with respect to the num bers of applications and the like, and the amount of money involved. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the scope of the program last year, we had some 30 projects for water source development throughout the province. Community water source development we had 20; and we had 4 area water pipeli nes which distributes the water, takes the water from the source to communities or can be available for farms that are in need of it; one for the community water and sewage program; that was last year's program.

The request this year is for, at this particular point, we have some 35 communities who are request ing water source development; 6 area water pipelines have been requested at this particular time; and 23 community water and sewage programs that have requested. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I presume and I just want to ask the Minister the costs, that would be the actual capital costs, would be hand led under Resolution 14, am I correct, where the explanation and the costs would be detailed there? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, they come under 14. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, there are no actual physical costs that are un dertaken in 7.(

b) whatsoever. This is strictly the staff component and the engine ers that do the investigation and the like. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(1) -p ass; 7.(bX2)- pass - the Mem ber for St. George. MR. URUSKI: On (2), Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister ind icate with respect, are there more applications for on-farm work than the department can handle? Or has the staff been able to meet, and the budget been able to meet, all the requests? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, under the part that we're talking about under the programs I've just listed, or the projects, we have been able to handle the work that has been requested through the department. My understanding is that there haven't been any farmers going wanting for the service or any commun ities going wanting for the service. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(bX2)- pass; 7.(cX 1) - pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could advise what towns have been getting water in the last year, not additions, maybe towns, just new ones. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the mem ber is asking for new projects that have been taken on, new towns that have requested the support of the Man itoba Water Services Board, not additional extensions. MR. ADAM: Well, unless somebody else wants it. MR. DOWNEY: Last year, Mr. Chairman, the question was for last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Ste. Rose, would he clarify the year he was asking for? MR. ADAM: I was asking for last year and any new ones up to this point. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister perhaps could read them into the record so we know. · MR. DOWNEY: Okay, Mr. Chairman.

The projects for last year were towns, to start it off: Arbor with sewage lagoon expan sion; Bl umenort, sewage collection and treatment system; Dauphin, Deloraine, Elm Creek, Foxwarren, Gimli, Grandview, Grunthal, Hamiota, lle des Chenes, Morris, Neepawa, Ninette, Oakville, Portage la Prairie, Reston, Robl in, Ste. Rose du Lac, Shoal Lake, Stonew all, Swan Lake, Virden and Wawanesa. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Mi nister could advise if a community of Laurier, Manitoba, if they made an application and is there other programs besides this? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I just listed some under the Agri-Water Agreement earlier, or gave the num bers of projects under the Agri-Water Program. These are under the Manitoba Water Services Board but for smaller communiti es we have the Agri- Water Program which they can apply for. Is there a specific town that the member has in question that he is wondering about, the status of it? What town is it? MR. ADAM: Laurier. It's a bilingual town, maybe they won't put it in . . . These Anglo-Saxons won't put any in. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, on the town of Laurier there are negotiations, I'm told, taking place between the town and the Agri-Water Program at this particular time. It is in the process of discussion between the town and the department. 4129

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. ADAM: On the matter of Grandview. Mr. Chairman, in the work that was done at Grandview last year, apparently there's some problems there relating to flood ing of neighbouring farms. Recom mendations by the resources that the dam should be lowered or changes made in that area so as not to flood the eight or nine farmers that are involved. I don't know what extent that they're being flooded out but it's a perennial thing and they have a whole file on it here, Mr. Chairman. I can put it in the record, Mr. Chairman, but we'll be here for half a ...

But there's a petition here as of April 21s t, 1980, addressed to Mr. Griffin, Chief of the Rural Water Services, in regard to this problem, and it appears to be signed by about 30 farmers or residents in the area, in regard to this continuous problem that is taking place. There is also a letter from Mr. Moffatt, I believe, 1979, that the licensing of the elevation is not being adhered to and they keep putting soil or they keep adding on to the dam every spring, or every fall, and it washes out every spring and they keep doing this.

Not only are they damaging the environment or the river there with this silting and so on, but there is a problem there. I'm wondering if the Minister is aware of this problem and if he is, what does he sugge st be done there? I believe the major problem developed after a hig hway was put in, or somet hing. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the mem ber brings to attention a problem between a community and what is actually between the Department of Natural Resources. That's who has the dam in that particular area and that is not in direct relationship to the Manitoba Water Services Board. MR.

ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could then tell us just what happened as far as the Water Services Board, what was done there in Grandview? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, to the best of my information the Water Services Board are not involved in that particular issue. MR. ADAM: The Min ister has just told us that there has been work done at Grandview. Could he explain what has been done? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, a water main renewal. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Mini ster indicate the formula difference between the Agri Water Services and the regular program under the Water Services Board?

As I understand, the mill rate is, I think, it's 8 and 12 on the regular program. What is the formula under the new Agri-Water Services Program and where are the differences between the two programs, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, un der the Agri Water Program it is targeted at towns under 350 people and farmsteads, and there is a direct grant available of up to 2,000 per connection for the towns. A MEMBER: It has nothing to do with mill rates? MR. DOWNEY: No, it has nothing to do with mill rates.

The mill rate program is still in place for Manitoba Water Services Boards and hasn't changed any over the last few years, it's still consistent over the last few years. The Ag ri-Water Program pays up to 30 percent of the cost up to 2,000 per hookup, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister indicate the extent of generosity of this program as com pared to the other? How would it compare in terms of the analysis of the community? Are they very simi lar in terms of the amount of money towards the project cost to a community? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, in the development of the program the department and staff have worked it out and it is fairly comparable. It is pretty much comparable to the other program, except for those towns unde r the Water Services Board Program where, in fact, those towns have used up to 20 mills. For any one less than that, it would differ somewhat but if they are getting full application of the mill program, as in relationship to this, they are pretty well comparable. MR. URUSKI: Pretty well the same. Mr.

Chairman, would the mill rate application be involved in terms of payment for water usage to the small communities as it is in most? Would their source be strictly on their own, that they wouldn't have to apply to the Water Services Board for a rate on water or how does it actually work in the small communities? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, in the small communi ties they operate their own plants. MR. URUSKI: Out of a well and it would be handled on their own comp letely. MR. DOWNEY: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7. (c)(1) -p ass; 7.( c)(2)- pass; 7.(d)(1)-p ass - the Member for St. George. MR.

URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With respect to the Crown land section, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate what is government's involvement and the extent of sales of Crown lands in this last year that th e department has direct jurisdiction over? We know that there are Crown lands that have been administered by the province on behalf of local government districts.

The Minister may want to indicate what is transpiring with respect to negotiations between the province and the local government districts, because those Crown lands were under the admin istration and un der the jurisdiction of the Crown Lands Branch, although they were not lands that were provincial Crown lands. Could the Minister give us an update as to what has transpired in this last year? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, as I am sure the member is aware, the Department of Agriculture looks after the allocation of the leases and the leasing of the agricultural lands.

The lands that have been identified by the LGDs and are held in trust by 4130

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 the province for those LGDs, if they are desirous of selling them, the LGD, then they are released for sale by the LGD. So that's basically it. The actual sale of Crown lands within the government are handled by the Department of Natural Resources again. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, have there been Crown lands that were admin istered by hi s department that have been sold? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Henry J. Einarson (Rock Lake): The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, as far as the actual selling, I've indicated that comes under Natural Resources and th e Department of Agricultur e handles the leases of those properties. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister would have, I'm sure in his statistics, how many lessees or how many acres the department has under his jurisdiction and maybe he should even - (I nterjection)- Yes, well, Mr. Chairman, that's a relevant point in terms of how many leases have termi nated as a result of sale of lands.

But one could also, I'm sure the Department of Agriculture has the numb ers in statistical form, the num bers of acreages that are leased, the type of leases there are and the numb er of acres that are admin istered on behalf of LGD. Those breakdown of figur es should be available in the department and whether another department handles the actual sale of which would reflect on the number of lessees that the department has in its own records, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there are 29 leases that have been released from the Department of Agriculture and they could be in the process of being sold. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell me whether those lands have actually been sold? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, to be specific on whether they have been sold to this point, no I can't answer that because I don't know, but they could be released. I think, mainly, they would be released for sale but I won't respond totally because we would have to check with the Department of Natural Resources to find out if they were sold. But what I am indicating is the information we have, that 28 have been released from the administration of our department. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, could the Mini ster give either the number of quarter sections or the approximate number of acres in terms of the parcels of land? Well, which ever way is easier for the department. If he tells me that there are 15 or 20 quarters or 28 quarter sections of land that have been released, or is it 5,000 acres, whatever the amount is, whichever way is easier for them to come up with. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't have that breakdown available here but I can get it. I don't have the breakdown whether it's quarters or halves but I would provide that as soon as I get it. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to the member? The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the allocation of leases in terms of . . . Could the Min ister indicate to me what the procedure is and the regulations are with respect to the allocation or the changing of leases of Crown land from a casual hay permit to a renewable hay permit, or leases of that nature? In other words, from a very short-term annual lease to a longer term lease basis what the procedures are that are normally undertaken and handled by the department. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, if I understand the mem ber correctly, if there's to be a reclassification of the land from a short-term pu rpose to a long-term purpose? -(lnterject ion)- Mr. Chairman, the land is reviewed by the Crown Land Classification Committee and if there's any department that sees that there's a need to retain it on a short-term basis, then in fact it is retained on a short-term basis. If the client wants to go into a longer term lease then he applies and then it's given consideration. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I've brought to the attention of his department and I will bring it now to the his attention and I will be following it up with correspondence on some specifics. That deals with where an allocation . . . The decision has already been made by the departments in consultation with the other departments that the land can be tu rned over from a casual to a renewable hay permit on a long-term allocation.

As I understand it, I'm given to understand that the procedure is that before a long-term allocation is made there is a notification put out and interested parties can· come in and indicate their interest and people who have leased the land on a casual basis previously are usually notified, and there's a one-year period in between the time that it changes from a casual to a long-term, if someone else happens to pick up that lease. Mr.

Chairman, I want also to ask the Minister what kind of notices go out in cases where the land is being advertised and a change of lease procedure is being undertaken or being contemplated. Is there a registered letter to the present lease holders or is it primarily a regular letter and a notice in the paper, or what is the general procedure? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the information I have on the procedure, the admin istration of it, is that the people who are interested in it are notified, as are those who have been holding the permits are notified, and then it's allo cated on the normal process of allocating lease land. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister ind icate to me what is the normal process of allocating the lease land? Has the allocation system been changed from what it was three years ago? MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. 4131

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: No, basically, Mr. Chairman, it's the same policy of allocation of Crown lands . MR. URUSKI: Under the point system? MR. DOWNEY: The point system is still in place. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could I suggest to the Mini ster, in terms of notification of prospective lessees or those that had the short-term permit be notified by registered mail that there is an intent to change the lease process. The reason I make that sugges tion, Mr.

Chairman, rather than a regular letter, is that I've had occasion at the present time where several farmers had for a number of years short-term hay permits from the department for a number of years. Because the land in question is subject to flooding periodically, they normally go in to settle their hay leases not in the fall of the year but after the winter months and towards the spring of the year.

I am advised that they claimed they did not receive notification of the change of procedure of the lease from a short-term to a longer term and, as a result, there was only one applicant for the lands in question and they were allocated to this individual, who happens, Mr. Chairman, to reside 25 miles away from the existing lands. I've raised it _ with the department and they have come back and have indicated that, well, the fellow indicated that he required; we notified everyone else and since there were no other applicants, the land was allocated to him. Mr.

Chairman, I make the suggestion that notification take place by registered mail because of the im pact that it has made, in this instance, on the producers in question. It has had an economic im pact on the producers in question, a very negative imp act on their operations. They had relied on this land for a num ber of years, in terms of the hay cutting and what has happened even worse, Mr.

Chairman, is that the hay was not, at least was not cut until they approached the farmer who was given the lease and, if I understand the regulations and the Minister can confirm, that there is not to be a sub-leasing of the land that is leased to an individual. In other words, the hay in question was cut on a share-crop basis and that was the only way that the hay could have been cut because that individual had neither the equipme nt nor the time to go into the area.

And I ask the Minister to consider that request of re-allocating and I will be bringing the specific matter to his attention and asking him whether or not there is a regulation in effect that if land or the resources are sub-let, that is a violation of the leasing agreement, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister whether he is familiar with the procedures that have been used by Mines and Resources in the allocation, or the sale that is, of the properties that were formerly leased and adminis tered by this department, terms of rights of first refusal on the part of the lessee etc. What is the procedure? Yet keeping in mind the right of the public to have an opportunity to give offers to the government for the same properties. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I can respond to it although it would have probably been better in the other department or commi ttee but I'll just respond briefly to him. The policy is to offer the land to sale for th ose individuals who are leasing it; that if tho se individuals are desirous of continuing to lease, that they are able to be able to continue to lease. They are not being forced to buy the land. MR. USKIW: There's a procedure though; there is a procedure. MR. DOWNEY: The mem ber is asking the procedure.

The procedure would be for the individual, if he's held the land for two years or had it at least for longer than two years, that he would apply to Crown Lands. The Crown Lands is appraised and he is given the offer to purchase if he is prepared to purchase, Mr. Chairman, or continue to lease. Remember, the land that we are offering for sale at this particular point are the lands that have been in agricultural long-term leases. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make certain.

Then I'm correct in assuming that if a person prefers to continue his lease, that the lands cannot be sold from under his lease arrangement. MR. DOWNEY: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: The other point I would like to clarify is, it seems to me . . . Well, it's my understanding that the existing lessee, if he wishes to purchase, mus t submit a deposit - I believe it's 50.00; yes - and su bsequently an appraisal is done and that appraisal is sub mitted to the lessee for his consideration.

At that stage he can choose to say, yes, I am willing to pay that price for the land and opt to purchase, or can he say, no, your price is too high, I now wish to continue to lease, or has he precluded hims elf from continuation of the lease once he makes an offer to purchase? I hope not, too, but I would like to know. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, he can continue to lease. MR. USKIW: Even if he had originally offered to purchase and decided the price was not right? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: He cannot be moved from that . . ? MR. DOWNEY: That's right, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: That's fine.

Well, I'm very pleased to hear that, Mr. Chairman, because I could foresee tremendous problems otherwise. The other question, Mr. Chairman, is what arrangements were entered into with the LGDs with respect to how they are disposing of LGD lands, lands which were formerly adminis tered by this department? Was there a transitional agreement in order to protect existing lessees so that there would not be sort of a mixed bag of methods as between one LGD and another in the disposal of those assets? Is there a uniform system across the province as per agreement with 4132

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 the LGDs when the province gave up admin istration of these lands? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the lands that are under lease are continued on to be adminis tered by the Department of Agriculture. As far as the disposition of the LGD lands that are held in trust, we haven't im posed our policy on them and there isn't an agreement between. MR. USKIW: agreement. There has to be a transitional MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the member is asking if the same sale policy is being carried out by the LGD as with the government? MR. USKIW: No, I'm not asking that. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, then if this is the question that he's sugges ting, that how is the land transferred from the province to the LGD, well, if he'd clarify his question. MR. USKIW: Yes. I'm assuming that certain blocks of land have been requested to be transferred back to the LGDs and, in connection with those parcels, is there an agreement as between the province and the LGD as to how those lands are to be allocated, disposed of? Is there a formula, given the fact that tho se lands have had a lessee operating them and a lessee arrangement with this department?

Now, how do you break that off and then say, well you're now dealing with another jurisdiction? There must be a transitional period when the province hands over its lessee contracts to the LGD in order to protect the lessee who is there at the time; so · that an LGD couldn't make a decision that they are going to remove that land from that lessee simply because they now have the jurisdiction. Surely there must be some method of transition to protect the original lessee or the existing lessee. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the answer to the member is, if that is the case, then the province has an agreement with the LGD to gi ve them unencum bered land; the LGD take unencum bered land from the province to facilitate this kind of a situation that the member is talking about. MR. USKIW: Let's take an example, Mr. Chairman.

Let's assume that farmer A has a lease that's going to take him into the next th ree years but in the meantime the province has decided to give up the jurisdiction or the adminis tration of these lands and place them back in the hands of the LGD in the middle of this lease period, what then is the position of the LGD with respect to honouring the existing lease arrangements that were held between the province and the lessee, and then the subsequent sale of the property if it is offered for sale? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, we have some agreements in place with some of the LGDs at this particular point and some we're still negotiating with, but where a farmer has land leased from the province, that is LGD land held in trust, that land is not sold, Mr. Chairman, or transferred back to the LGD. The province protects the lease-holder's rights and in return for the LGD, to the LGD we make alternative Crown lands available to those LGDs. MR.

USKIW: All right, so the Mi nister then is indicating to the commit tee that there is a land trade-off arrangement so that, in essence, an existing lease arrangement is not affected by a comp ensation program to the LGD to offset the fact that the province has taken over ownership of their lands which were in trust; that is correct. MR. DOWNEY: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: The Minister then doesn't foresee a situation that I have described arising whatever, is that the point? MR. DOWNEY: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.

I believe it is certainly our responsibility to protect those people who are on the land and who are farming with the intent of continuing on, either to purchase or to lease, that they are not forced into a situation by the government or by local LGDs where they're in a difficult situation. We want to protect that right of those particular individuals. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Could the Mini ster ind icate whether there have been agreements for cash for land exchanges or does it strictly come out land for land exchanges between agreements, between the LGDs and the province? Have there been instances where we have actually paid cash in lieu of lands, or have there been actual land trade-offs? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, at this point it's been land for land trade-offs. MR. URUS!<I: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister didn't answer my question earlie r with respect to regulations in terms of su b-letting leases or the leasing of land to other parties, whether that is generally held as a violation of the leasing agreement. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there is no change at this particular time but in light of the current weather conditions that we're seeing there may have to be some review done of that particular policy because the objective, at this point, should be whether there is livestock feed for cattle. But at this point, as I have indicated, there is no change. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, when the Min ister says there is no change, is he acknowledging that generally the lessee is the one to make use of the land and if he is not making use of the land, then the lands really then can be reallocated? I am correct in that assumption? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Therefore, Mr. Chairman, given the fact all the circumstances being equal, the farmer should be able to, if he undertakes a lease, should undertake to carry out the terms of the lease and if 4133

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 he is not so doing, then he would be generally in violation of the lease. MR. DOWNEY: He would be su bject to cancellation, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I notice that there has been a change in the Appeal Board. I believe the number has been increased to begin with. Under the previous adminis tration I believe we've had three members appointed, people who were not involved in leasing land. As I recall, there were none of the members actually leasing land that were farmers but they were quite independent.

I understand there are now seven; is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: No. MR. ADAM: Well, how many are there; five? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, for the correction of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, there are five members on the Crown Lands Appeal Board. I'm sorry, Crown Lands Advisory Comm ittee is the proper name for that group. A MEMBER: It's not an appeal board. MR. DOWNEY: No, well under the Act. MR. ADAM: Well, they handle appeals. MR. DOWNEY: That's right. MR. ADAM: Do they have different responsibil ities than the previous? MR. DOWNEY: No. MR. ADAM: It's the same function. MR. DOWNEY: That's correct. MR.

ADAM: They just handle appeals. I'm wondering why it was necessary to increase the number. What was the reason? Was there a reason for that? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I really wasn't aware that it had increased at this point but I can check back and see why the last government only had three or four or two. I don't know; I'll check it out. MR. ADAM: To my recollection, Mr. Chairman, there were only three. The reason I bring this up is not because the government tried to create two more jobs, that's their prerogative if they want to do that.

I recall that when the first comm ittee was set up to review these applications, the recommendation comes from the department field staff or some one on the first recommendation as to who should get a particular lease and there may be four or five applicants involved. As I recal l, after the Appeal Board was set up, there were a great number of changes from the original allocation and, as the program went on, I believe the department tuned in to what the Appeal Board was trying to do.

In other words, what I am saying is that in the beginning that the Appeal Board was set up and the department made the first decision as to who should have a lease out of five applicants or three applicants or whatever. And the Appeal Board was making a great number of changes, reversing the decision of the department. Later on, as the program continued after a year or so, the department appeared to understand how the Appeal Board was reviewing this situation. Now the Minister says there is no changes in the allocation, the point system, and so on.

But I look here in the Report and there appears to be a large number of decisions being changed by the Advisory Comm ittee. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, if I can speak to it the way I think it should operate and the way I would be expecting it to operate is the fact that the department allocate the leases on the point system in allocation of that land, without pre-judging what, in fact, the Appeal Comm ittee may suggest. And if he is sugges ting, under his government when he was a mem ber of government, that, in fact, the department was trying to line up with that Appeal Comm ittee, then I don't think it was proper.

MMR. ADAM: And that is happening now then? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. What he has said and he can check Hansard, what he has said, that as time went on with the Appeal Comm ittee that they, in fact, lined up what, in fact, the Appeal Com mittee wanted. At this particular point, Mr. Chairman, he is indi cating that the Appeal Comm ittee are making different decisions to a larger extent than what the department are. Now he said that. I'm just requoting what he has said in the record.

As far as I am concerned the Appeal Comm ittee is in place to see that the individuals who have applied for land, or have appealed a particular allocation, that commit tee hear the appeal and make the ruling on the best judgement available to them on the information and the best way they see fit. Otherwise there would be no point in having an Appeal Commit tee. The Appeal Commit tee is for the protection of the public at large who are not satisfied with the ju dgement or the allocation by the department. That is the purpose and I would not want to see it any different, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ADAM: Well, I see the same pattern happening here, again, because it seems as though, this is a new board, it's only been established a year or two and it appears that they have to reverse the decisions made by the department to quite an extent. However, I wanted to ask another question on the sale of impr ovements or the purchase or impr ovements where a lease is gi ven up or transferred or whatever and the department or the government buys the imp rovements.

According to the report here, we have recaptured approximately 87 percent of the impr ovements by re-leasing to other people and they have picked up the im provements. I'm wondering why we have lost 13 percent of the im provements. Are we paying too much for the imp rove �nts? Are the appraisals too high? It should be dollar for dollar, why should we lose? 4134

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, when the lands are given up, or they are paid for the impr ovements that are made to the Crown lands, I guess you could consider one of the reasons for the less money being recovered is the fact that certain thi ngs, impr ovements, depreciate when it comes to fencing, when it comes to a dugout, well you can depreciate your dugout, it's a matter of an appraisal and an actual appraised figure put on it and the original cost. That would be the basic reason I would consider, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ADAM: I think the Minister has mis sed the point, well he did miss the import of my question. I belie ve he is correct when he says that the impr ovements depreciate over the years; that is correct. So when the Crown purchases these impr ovements, they would be the original price less the depreciation. The question I am asking is, when we turn this over to another lessee, th ese imp rovements, why are we losing money on the transfer, unless there's a lag time? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, that's right.

It's indicated by staff, it could be a year of two of a lag time which could be the reason for the difference, is the length from when one lessee has it until it's re leased again, it could be one or two years. So that would be another reason for the difference. MR. ADAM: A further question on this is, when a parcel of land is sold to a lessee, how does the imp rovements affect the pu rchase price or the appraised price? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, any improvements put in place by the person who is wishing to purchase it, that is deducted from the purchase price. MR.

ADAM: I want to ask about a particular case in the Waterhen area. I guess the Department of Mines and Resources have the first priority on Crown lands. MR. DOWNEY: No, not necessarily, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Okay then. I want to give you a specific example. There is a lessee in Waterhen who has a half

section and fractions. They are fractions, Mr. Chairman, because part of these lands go into the Waterhen River and he has half a mile between the provincial road - it's not a provincial road but it's a market road going north of Waterhen to Mallard, community of Mallard - and he's on the west side of the road, on the east side of the river, and he raises horses, quarter horses and different, Appaloosa's (?) and so on. It appears that the Department of Mines want to change this over to cottage lots or something along that effect.

He said he's had these lands for a numb er of years and he has other leases in the area further away, but he wants to build a homesite on these leases. They are trying to discourage him or they are threatening to take these leases away from him and he has been down to see me about two weeks ago to find out just what alternatives are open to him. He said, what about if I tender to buy? They said, well, you know, you're going to have to pay 89,000 if you want to buy these leases.

Now I don't know where he gets the arbitrary figure but I think this is the field staff that made these comments that he would have to pay 89,000.00. I don't know where he gets that figure but anyway, this is what the fellow said, and the man 's name is Friesen, by the way, he's a Mr. Friesen. Of course with those kinds of figures being bandied about by field staff, and I don't know who it is and whether the statements are in fact correct.I only have the one side of the story.

But anyway, he said, well all right, if you're going to divide up these leases for cottages, rather than agricultural leases, let me purchase a few acres so that I can build a home on it. He is able to put a building on the site and get financing for it, get financing to construct a new home and bring his family there but he can't get any assistance to build a home until he can get the land, and for some reason it seems to be up in the air at the moment, with all this confusion and I would sure like - I'm sure the party who is involved would sure be happy - if this confusion could be resolved.

Now he was supposed to have come in to Winnipeg about ten days ago, after I suggested he come in to Winnipeg and get in touch with the Crown Lands and make an offer to buy it, and see what they say because I know the Minister is selling land. I mean I'm not sure this Minister is doing it but we are now selling Crown Land so why shouldn't this person have the same opportunity to bid on land, if it's available? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, first of all, if the mem ber had been listening earlier when I commented that we are selling land, only tho se Crown leases that are long-term leases, to th ose people who are leas ing it. Now if he has an Agriculture Crown Land Lease, he has the ability to go ahead or the opportunity to go ahead and buy it. If he doesn't want to buy it, he's not forced to. I would like the member to take to the department, or specify, find out who he has the lease with.

It could be Natural Resources under some water agreement, or whatever, but if it is an agricultural long-term lease it's appraised and on those appraisal prices is able to go ahead and proceed. Now, if you want to provide more information, and I would sugge st you do it through the department on that specific lease so we can continue on with the estima tes here, but I would be quite prepared to find out; give him the name of the department and see what type of a lease he has and if he qualifies, fine.

If it isn't one of those lands, then at this particular time there isn't a sale policy on that particular kind of land. MR. ADAM: Just one last question and that is, if he has a year-to-year lease, say from Northern Affairs or from Mines and Resources then he . . . It has been suggested he can buy it, if he's willing to put up 89,000, and he's been told that by those ... MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the mem ber suggested that figure of 89,000 was an arbitrary figure that he said he got it from some place. We can't deal here on arbitraries, on assumptions.

I think we should have a little more basic information so this can be dealt with properly. 4135

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 MR. CHA IRMAN: I think I have to draw th e attention to the committee that the clock there, I guess by electrical, is running slow and not knowing where the other clock is so I'll call it 4:30. I am leaving the Chair for Private Mem bers' Hour. We'll return at 8:00 p.m. (tonight) SU PPLY - EDUCA TION MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This comm ittee will come to order. I would direct the hono urable mem bers to page 39 of th e Main Estimates, Department of Education, Resolution No. 50, Item 1. Departmental Admin istrative Supp ort Services, (

a) Mi nister's Com pensation - th e Honourable Minister. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Education continues to provide essential leadership and support to the educational system in Manitoba. During the past year there have been some changes in senior personnel within the department. Dr. W. C. Lorimer, who devoted many years to education in Man itoba, retired on June 30th. Mr. R. A. Macintosh, Director of Education, St. James-Assi niboia School Division, was appointed Deputy Minister. Dr.

Lorimer has been named chairma n of the Un iversities Grants Comm ission to replace the late Dr. W. J. Condo. I am sure that all members of the House join me in paying tribute to Dr. Condo, who served as chairman of the Universities Grants Comm ission under two adminis trations. His devotion to furthering education in the province, particularly at the university level, is well known and his valued contribution will be sorely mis sed. Mr. P. Penner was appointed Assistant Deputy Mini ster responsible for the Commu nity Col leges Division when Mr. L. Talbot resigned to take on a new position in Lethbridge. Dr. R.

Duhamel succeeded Mr. R. Hebert as Assistant Deputy Min ister in charge of the Bureau de !' Education Francaise. Mr. R. Hebert resigned to go into private business. Having noted some changes in senior staff, Mr. Chairman, I wish to comment also on the fine work done by all of the staff in my department and to express my appreciation for the effective way in which they have assisted me in mana ging educational affairs in Manitoba. The principal organizations in educa tion, Mr.

Cha irma n , the Manitoba Association of Scho ol Trustees, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents, the Manitoba Association of School Business Officials, have also played an impo rtant role in education during the past year and I wish to acknowledge their contributions and their co-operation. The Department of Education has two major com ponents. One deals with elementary and secondary education and the other with post secondary education.

The 1979 Annual Report of the department distribu ted to all members has the organizational chart and I suggest the mem bers will find it helpful to review that particular chart. I also wish to draw to the attention of the mem bers that the names of two branches were changed to correspond more closely to the functions assigned to those particular branches. The Special Projects Branch is now called the Post Secondary Career Development Branch and the External Adminis trative Consultant Services Branch is now designated as the Field Services Branch.

The re established Field Services Branch has been strengthened and reorganized. The branch, now headed by a full-time director, is operational in five regions: Win nipeg, Sout heastern, Northeastern, Northern and Western Manitoba, with offices in Winnipeg, Thompson, Dauphin, and Brandon.

In keeping with the reorganization, and in accordance with the goals and objectives announced last year, the branch has moved rapidly to intensify its liaison with school divisions and independent and native reserve schools and become more knowledgeable about the educational de livery services that are being provided in all school systems. The branch is now providing feedback which is vital to the effective operation of the Department of Education. An im portant function of the Department of Education is to provide the necessary financial support to public schools in Manitoba.

I was pleased to announce in late Ja nuary that a nu mber of changes had been made to grants payable to school divisions in 19 80. The following are the major changes which were announced: The grant for transportation of pupils was increased from 255 to 290 per transported pupil. The grant for print and non-print materials has been increased from 16 to 20 per pupil. The general per pupil grant was increased from 307 to 365 per pupil. The declining enrolment grant, which has remained unchanged for the past several years, is continued for another year but the rate has been increased from 350 to 500 per pupil.

The amount allocated for equalization grants is 22. 7 million, which represents an increase of 1. 6 million. The distribution is on the basis of a revised

schedule attached to the letter which was sent to all school boards. With regard to the method of paying these grants, the government of Manitoba has approved a plan whereby 40 percent of each school divisio n's estima ted entitlements will be paid in April, followed by a further 10 percent in each of the months of May, June, September, October, November, and December. For 19 80, the revised cash flow will commence in June with an adjustment made for any advance prior to that date. This will assist school divisions very substantially in reducing interest charges due to borrowing.

I belie ve that these imp rovements enable the Department of Education to maintain its proportion of the cost of funding education in Manitoba for the current year. But I want to empha size that it is the intent of the Government of Manitoba to complete its review of education financing and to develop a new system before the end of this calendar year.

A study was conduc ted by the staff of the Department of Edu cation, together with representatives from the office of the Provincial Auditor and the Manitoba Association of School Busine ss Of ficials, to dete rmine the feasi bi lity , including estima ted costs, of preparing and implementing a standardized system of accounting and financial reporting to be used by all Manitoba school divisions. The group conducting the study favoured the plan and the Public Schools Finance Board will be assuming responsibility for the project. 4136

ThursdaJ, 211 MeJ, 1980 Although no time-frame has yet been established it is expected that the project will take two to three years for completion. It is further hoped such a measure will assist school boards in their financial deliberations. The Research Branch also operates as a service unit providing research support for planning, policy making, management and assessm ent to all sections of the department, elementary, seco ndary section, community colleges'

section and the Un iversities Grants Commission. During the past year the Research Branch, among other things, sponsored a conference on declining enrolments; developed a provincial projec tion of public school enrolments for the period 19 80 to 19 85 based on pre-school population in formation from Family Al lowances information; did an assessment of the utilization and effectiveness of the department's instructional media services and completed a major study designed to review the dir ection and co-ordination of data processing plans and activities.

For the next fiscal year the Research Branch will be un dertaking research support designed to assist the department's management in developing effective policies, plans and programs, in several major areas. Some of these major activities will include an evaluation of the high school computer network, a survey of post high school plans of Manitoba high school students and education needs assessment in the community of Thompson, and an implementation of a test-sco ring support service for the department and school divisions.

Cur ricu lum Devel opment will con tinu e to be enhanced through the Measurement and Evaluation Branch. The branch successf ully conducted a writing assess ment program in Grades 3, 6, 9. and 12 and is in the final stages of preparation for an assessment of reading in these same grades for May of 1980. A similar assessment program for mathematics is planned for May of 1981 to comp lete the first round of a three-year cyclical testing program in these areas.

In addition, the first of a series of non-cyclical assessments will be undertaken commencing in the fall of 1980 with the testing of science at Grades 5, 8 and 11, and chemistry in Grades 11 and 12. In 19 80- 81, Curriculum Development will also continue wittl social studies and language arts revisions for the elementar y school, and mathematics and science revisions moving into the senior high schools. An interim K to 12 guide for physical education has been completed and the final form of that guide will be ready this fall.

A revised health curriculum will be completed in draft form during the 1980-81 school year. The coming year will see the establishment of a system atic comprehensive process for the identification, evaluation, selection and review of instructional materials which will not only increase provincial efficiency in these tasks, but also because it is used interprovincially and internationally, will elimin ate unnecessary duplication of time and effort at both provincial and local levels.

In 19 80-81, the Vocational Education Branch will begin a major thr ust in the development of guidelines and materials for a co-operative Work Education Pilot Program in Manitoba schools. The purpose of this project is to develop for students a wider range of vocational training opportun ities. The branch will also conduct a follow-up review of secondary school vocational education graduates in conjunction with the Research Branch to obtain, among other things, information on the deg ree of uti lization and satisfact ion with school servi ces in this area. A comm ittee, Mr.

Chairman, is now being formed to produce a safety guide for vocational and indus trial art shops . as part of the ongoing concern with the identification, correct ion and prevention of unsafe conditions and practices in school shops. Another comm ittee has been set up to revise and update the safety manual for school laboratories. In the Media Services Branch, in the coming year we shall be proce eding with the development of an integrated and automa ted distribution system for all instruct ional support materials, films, li brar y materials, multi-media kits, audio video tapes, etc.

The aim is to provide a more efficient service resulting in greater user satisfaction and a higher level of service per dollar of inventory. Members may be aware that in addition to regular grants, additional funding is available to divisions to assist in the provision of educational services for childr en with high-cost, no-incidence handicaps. In 19 78-79, 40 school divisions applied for and received a total 250,000 for these students. Last year, 19 79- 80, 450,000 was expended to assist 56 divisions and districts in providing services to approximately 355 students.

In 19 80-8 1, some 850,000 will be available to provide funding for the programs of a greater number of special need students and to increase the level of such funding. Overall, considering both provincial and divisional budget contributions, it is estimated that total special education support will reach some 28 million, up 10 percent from the 19 79- 80 estimates of 25.5 million.

The Child Dev elopment and Support Services Branch, during the past year , conduc ted profe ssional devel opment programs on a regional basis for special class teachers, resource teachers, special education co-ordinators and adminis trators. This thrust will be contin ued into 19 80-8 1 with extension to regular · classroom teachers in kindergarten and Grade 1. The increased level of awareness and understanding that should result will help teachers accept special needs' childr en in integrated sett ings and will facilit ate the preventative approach to childr en with special needs.

The Native Education Branch has placed its emphasis on the development of instructional guides for the teaching of native languages in the elementary schools, and in co-operation with the University of Manitoba, on the development of methods, cour ses, in the teach ing of native languages. Supplementary resource materials have been developed and made available dealing with education for native people and about native people, and a Native Studies Program for Grades 7 to 9 is under development. In-service programs in native awareness will continue to be offered to Manitoba teachers.

In its continuing efforts to impr ove educational facilities and programs, the Frontier School Division, which operates 30 schools in 28 commun ities in northern Manitoba, will be constructing new schools in Norway House, Duck Bay, and an addition to the Wanipigow School. Major renovations will be done to the Ross ville School at Norway House as wel l. The division is also negotiating provision of new school 4137

Thursday, 29 May, 1980 facilities at Cross Lake. An agreement has been reached between the Government of Canada and this government to build a new school at Hil lridge, on the Ebb and Flow Indian Reserve. The Manitoba Department of Gove rnme nt Services and th e Department of Indian and Inui t Affairs are now proceeding with this project.

The Post-Secondary Career Development Branch is responsible for such programs as BUNTEP or the Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Programs, and the various special mature student programs at the University of Manitoba, Brandon University, Brandon General Hospital and Red River Community College. During the past year, as a result of successful negotiations for enhanced cost-sh aring agreements with the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, an extra 645,000 was provided to the branch, raising its total allocation under this program to 4,4 36,000.00.

These additional funds permitted the opening of two additional BUNTEP centres at Go ds Lake and Grand Rapids. The addition of 15 students to the special mature student program at Red River Community College and the opening of the special pre medical studies program at the University of Manitoba with an enrolment of 10 students. All of these programs, which continue to provide quality graduates, will be maintained into 19 80-8 1, and in additi on, the branch will also un dertake an examina tion into the needs and potential for distance education in Manitoba. I can say, Mr.

Chairman, I am proud of our progress in this area of career development, opportunities for mature students. I' ve had the pleasure of meeting with a num ber of these students in the projects over the past year. I' ve been impr essed with their seriousness and sense of purpose. It is gratifying to experience th e whol ehearted support commu nities give to their BUNTEP centres and it is especially gratifying to attend graduation exercises and hear of the accompl ishments of these students.

During the 19 79-80 school year, apart from the continued interest in French language education for Manitobans of French origin, there has emerged a growing interest in the learning of French as a second language. Growth is anticipated in basic French programs. As far as

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-68a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 68a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2e6075ffc0421fd7d198acec5566185b7d30bd53

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