Time : 2:3 0 p.m. LEGISLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANI TOBA Tuesday , 8 April 198 0 OPENING PRAYER by Mr . Speak er. MR . SPEAKER , Hon . Harr y E. Graham (B irtle-Russell): Presenting Petit ions • Read ing and Receiving Petitions ••• PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMI TTEES MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Rad isson. MR . ABE KOVNATS : Mr . Speak er , the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolution s, directed me to report same , and asks leave to sit again. I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden , report of committee be received. MOTION presented and carried .

MINISTERIAL STAT EMENTS AND TABLIN G OF REPORTS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Kil larney ): I have a statement , Mr . Speak er , and I have copies. The Water Resources Branch of the Department of Natural Resources reports that favoura ble spring break-up cond itions during the pas t two weeks have almost el im­ inated the threat of spring flooding on Manitoba 's rivers. A slow melt rate , characterized by mild days and cool nights has all owed most of the melt water to soak into the ground .

The lack of any significant precipitation in Manitoba since Ma rch 26 th , combined with considerable evaporation losses , has also reduced run­ -off. Spring run-off is now well under way in southern Manitoba , and many of the smaller streams have already peaked . Most larger tributar ies will peak late this week. Peak stages on the Red , Assiniboine , and Souris Rivers will likely occur be­ tween April lOth and April 15th , unless there is heavy additional precipitation.

The Red River peaked at Grand Forks on Easter Sunday , and with aver age weather cond itions it is expected to peak at Emerson Friday , April 11 , and in Winnipeg on Monday , April 14. Peak lev els will be well be low flood stage . Up to the morning of April 8, the Red River had risen 6. 25 metres from its winter leve l at Emerson and 2. 25 metres from its winter lev el in Winnipeg. Indications are that the Red River Floodway will not be used this spring. On the Assiniboine River and the Souris River water levels thus far have risen one metre or less from the winter level.

Peaks well below flood stages are ex­ pected early next week with normal weather condit ions. Recent snowfall in the Sour is River ba sin in Saskatchewan and North Dakota and extreme southwestern Manitoba will have no appreciable ef fect on peak fl ows in the Souris River in Manitoba. The Water Resources Branch reports that run-off is just getting under way in areas of heavier winter snow accum ulation such as eastern Manitob a , the Interla ke , and the Rid ing and Duck Mount ains . However, the favourable spring break-up condi­ tions thus far have reduced the flood potential in these are as .

Flooding is un­ likely unless ther e is heavy precipitation during the next week or two . The Water Resources Branch adv ises that it is monitoring the spring runoff closely and will issue further reports if the runoff situation changes significant ly . MR . SPEAKER : Notices of Motion ••• Introduc tion of Bills • - 2077 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourab le Leader of the Opposition . MR . HOWARD PAWLEY (S elkirk) : Mr . Spea ker , my question to the First Minister , can the First Minister at this point indicate when Ma nitobans will be favoured with the introduction of his Budget , whether in fact we can receive it in April as the First Minister indicated some time ago it would be given? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON . STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood ): Mr .

Speak er , we are targeting fo r the Budget to be brought down and for the subsequent debate for some time in the rela­ tively near future , it would be a matter of weeks yet . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR . SIDNEY GREEN : Mr . Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Finan ce . Mr .

Speak er, in view of the fact that the Minister questioned my statistics with regard to mortgage foreclosures approxi­ mately a week ago when I suggested that they are occurring at the rate of 45 a week ; would the Minister say that there is false advertising in the Winnipeg Tribune of this week 's edit ion wherein I counted , Mr . Speak er, 52 orders for sale advertised foreclosing property in the province of Manieoba? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finan ce . HON . DONALD W. CRAI K (Riel) : Mr .

Speak er , I don 't have any comment to make on the qual ity of the adverti sing that appears in one of the newspapers. I ca n't verify the numbers used by the membe r either.

My understanding that there have been some cases where , I gather, one or two smaller companies or companies period , development companies , have brought about two di fferent packages that have in total brought the numbers up; that the numbers , whatever they are , are not a total number of individu als , but rather take on the complexion , in fa ct , that there has been a couple of companies where there have been a number of units in both that add up to the total . MR . GREEN: Wel l, Mr .

Speak er, in view of the fact that the Minister still questions these numbers , is not satisfied that I have counted them correctly or that they correctly reflect what is happening , would the Minister check to see whether my num bers are correct, and if so , Mr . Spea ker , whether or not this is a record high for mortgage foreclosures now achie ved under the Progressive Conserva­ tive administr ation . MR. CRAIK : Well, Mr . Chairman , I am not quest ioning the memb er 's numbers , I simply repeat the explanation I gave .

The Minister of Consumer Affairs may have some information from his Department with regard to substantiating the totals , and I suggest perhaps that if he is able to provide any he would be willin g to give an indication of whether the government , in fa ct , has figures that can substantiate or otherwise the numbers given . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplement2ry . MR . GREEN: Yes , Mr .

Speake r, in view of these numbe rs , is it now appro p­ riate to ask the Minister the question that was so of ten put by the First Mini ster when he was in opposition , with respect to our government : How long will the peo­ ple of Manitoba have to endure this ideological socialis t experiment? Can the Minister advise how long the people of Manitoba will have to endure this doctrin­ ai re ideological exper iment in 19th century capital ism? MR . CRAIK : Yes , Mr .

Speak er , I have to remind the member that the provin­ ces with the doc trine cl oser to his own ar e experie ncing the same diff iculty , and - 2078 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 colle ctively . I'v e gathered from the Mini ster of Consumer Affairs that the num­ bers are in fact greater, if you want to look at it on a statistical basis . I think, Mr . Speaker, that question might als o provide the opening to make the observation that it is a national problem , not one tha t is unique to a province, and we repeat our of fer to again as sist, as much as possible, in conju nction with the federal government , in finding a solution to the probl em . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR . PAWLEY : Mr .

Speaker, by way of furthe r supplementary , in view of the fact that the. Governor of the Bank of Canada is in Manitoba today and with the information that the Memb er for Inkster just released to the House about the in­ creasing number of foreclosur es , despite the Ministers ' ration al izati ons, does the Minister intend, or the First Minister, to make any representation today to the Governor of the Bank of Canada while he is present in the province? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. MR . LY ON: Mr .

Speaker, if I can be excused from my duties in the House in about another ha lf -hour 's time I expec t to be meeting informally with the Governor of the Bank of Can ada . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR . WILSON PARASI UK : Mr . Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health . Can the Minister confirm that Wards E3 , E4, E5 and E6 were being closed down at the Health Sciences Centre over two weeks ago, while the Minister was telli ng us in the House that , according to his staff , no beds and no wards were being closed down at the Hea lth Sciences Centre?

Can the Minister indicate why he would be telli ng us that type of information when he was specificall y told that there was information that wa s contrary to his, but he insisted two weeks ago that these beds weren 't be ing closed down? MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Minister of Hea lth. HON . L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garr y): Mr . Speaker, I ca n't confi rm that those are the precise wards, but I can get that information . I can confirm, as I did yes terday, that 79 beds are closed .

With respect to the other part of the honourable member 's question , I can only say that, as he is aware , the government does not run the Health Sc iences Cent re ; it is run by a board of di rectors. The information that I gave to this House on Ma rch 24th when the issue first surfaced and the information that I have given since, including that which has been made available to me the last few days, is informa tion tha t has been given to me and is based on assurances that were given to me by the board of the Health Sciences Centre . MR .

PARASI UK: I'd like to ask the Minister if he can now tell us how many acute care beds are still in operation at the Hea lth Sciences Centre? MR . SHERMAN: No, but I can get that information, Mr . Speaker. There are 1, 308 beds in the Health Sciences Centre and 79 have been closed so tha t would leave a total of approximately 1, 230 or 1,2 29 , ap proximately that num ber . I ca n't tell him how many are acute and how many are geriatric and how many are in Child­ rens but I can get that informati on . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplemen- tary . MR .

PARASIUK : I would like the Minister to in fact get that informati on and to ensure that we get a proper definition of the term "acute" so that we can know how many be ds are then available for emergency and elective surgery. And would the Minister undertake to determine whether in fact the Hea lth Sciences Centre , which is the major general hospital of Winnipeg, now finds itself in a - 2079 -

Tuesday , 8 April 198 0 position where virtuall y half of the beds presumably for acute care are now be ing used for extended care instead of acu te care? MR . SHERMAN: Well , Mr. Speak er , I certainly have no information or evi­ denc e that would support that suggestion by the Honourable Member for Transcona . Certainly there are be ds at the Health Sciences Centre of an activ e treatment nature that are occupied by long-stay patient s, as is the case with alm ost every general hospital in this country , but I certainly have no inf ormation to suggest it 's anywhere near the number that he proposes. MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. MR . LYON : Mr . Speaker , if I may , I just have a correction to mak e to my statement yesterday respecting Bill No . 2, a correction to the record which I think is of historica l significance rather than of substantive significance to the bill . In my comments yesterday , Mr . Speaker ·, I made the comment on approximately Page 2 of the statement; "The parallel legislation to secularize the Manitoba schools receive · more attention than the 189 0 Act concerning the of ficial lan guage .

Prob­ ably for that reason it was never directly questioned in the court s unt il this past decade ," and then the sentence went on. What I should have said , Mr . Spea ker , was this: "Probably for that reason it was never directly questioned in the Supreme Court until this past deca de." With that correction in mind I say to the honourable members that it 's been brought to my attention tha t the 1890 Act was challenged on two dif ferent occa­ sions in the courts of Manitoba : once in the County Court of St .

Boniface in 1906 and on another occasion in another County Court and , as well, an action in the Court of Queen 's Bench which wa s never br ought to trial or to issue. So as I mentioned , Mr . Speake r, I make tha t correction for historic purposes rather than de al ing with the sub stance of the Ac t. MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Member for Kildonan on a point of order . MR . PETER FOX: Yes , as much as we appreciate the correction, I hope you will deduc t that time from the Question Period. MR . SPEAK ER: Order please . The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. MR .

LY ON : On the point of order and with as much good humour as I can mus­ ter , I say to my honourable friend that I hope we never deduc t a question of civili ty or grace from the Question Period because it 's a matter of the customs and practises of the House to permit members to make corrections for the record , to Hansard , from time to time . That ap plies not only to members on this side of the House , Mr . Speaker , it is a right of all 57 members of the House , which I' m sure my learned friend the Member for Kildon an, the past distinguished Speaker of this House , would be the first to acknowledge . MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for The Pa s. MR . RONALD McBRYDE : Mr . Spea ker , I don 't rise to make a correction which we normally make during times other than the Question Per iod , I rise , Mr . Speak er, to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture . I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture will be recommending to his colle agues that legislat ion be brought in to provide farm workers with a minimum wage , vacation pay and statutory holida ys. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agricultu re . HON . JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur ): Mr .

Spea ker , the member brings a matter bef ore the House which I could take under consideration. MR. McBRYDE : Mr . Speake r, because I am not clear of the jurisdiction there , I would like to address a quest ion to the Minister of Labour and Manpower. - 2080 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 I wonder if the Minister of Labour and Manpower is considering br inging forward legislat ion that would brin g under his jurisdict ion , under existing legislation jurisdicti on, farm workers in terms of minimum wage , vacation pay and statutory holiday s. MR . SPEAK ER: Order please . The question is repetit ive. The Honourable Member for The Pa s. MR . McBRYDE : Mr. Speak er , my question is to the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the Minister will be recommending to the federal government that foreign workers be imported again, in terms of farm labour workers. MR .

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Lab our . HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson) : I understaqd , Mr . Speak er, that the organ­ ization representing the workers in the Portage la Prairie area and the employers usually come to a satisfactory conclusion , of which they make their recommenda­ tions , and when I' ve received that , I'l l dea l with it in what I figure is an appropriate manner at that time . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . My question is addressed to the First Minister , and is further to my questions of yesterday .

I wonder if the First Minister would advise the House what representation or what ap proaches or what requ ests he made of the Great-We st Life in an attempt to persuade them not to move up to 100 senior head of fice positions to Denver. MR . SPEAKER: The Honoura ble First Minister. MR . LYON : Mr . Speaker , as I mentioned to the honourable member yesterday , she is refer ring , appar entl y , to a news item of almost nine months age at the pre­ sent time .

She might wish to refresh her memory from the press release that was issued , I believe by the company in question, as to the changes it was making with respect to its head off ice personnel, relati ve or consequent upon the construction of the new corporate headqua rters and some $62 million , I think , worth of further construction that is to go on immediately across the street from us. If my hon­ ourable friend has any questions , I suggest again , with the greatest of respect , she di rect her questions to the source where she can best get the information , to Great-West Life . MRS.

WESTBU RY: My information did not come from news releas es , Mr . Speak er. I wonder if the First Minister could tell the House whether he feels any anxiety whatsoever , or responsibilit y whatsoever , for the moving of these senior head office positions from our province . MR . LYON : Mr . Speak er , I am beginning to feel the beginnings of some an­ xiety about the quality of the information that is being fed to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTB URY: On another subje ct, also to the First Minister. Mr .

Speak er , will the Minister ad vise the House whether it is his intention to attend a meeting of Western Premiers in Lethbridge on April 2lst , and if he intends at tha t time to make any definitiv e statement on Manito ba 's position with reference to ·the Quebec re ferendum or to the constituti on or any other related matter? MR . LY ON: It 's customary , Mr . Speake r, for the bene fit of my honourable friend who is new to the House , for the Premiers of each of the four provinces to attend those conference s.

It is also customary for each Premier to participate in the agenda items , one of which I mentioned recently had to deal with the whole situation of Queb ec. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. - 2081 -

Tuesday, 8 April 1980 MR . JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister re­ sponsible for the Emergency Measures Organizat ion . I am intrigued by a statement att ributed to the Minister responsible for that organization to the ef fect that the EMO was not called into MacGregor because the Environmental Department staff decided not to do so . My question to the Minister is: Was it the Federal or the Provincial Environmental Department staff that decided not to ca ll the Emergency Measures Organization into that de rail ment site? MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honoura ble Minister of Government Services . HON. HARRY ENNS (L akeside ): Mr . Speaker, the honourable member 's inf orma­ tion is wrong as it often is. Emergency Measures was contacted immediate ly and first in the cas e of the acci dent at MacGregor and then proceeded to function as it normally does in dealing with the nature of the accident, involving the depart­ ment most immediately responsible, namely, Environment .

It was subsequent to that, that perhaps there was some delay or breakdown in the communications or the orders of things that a judgment call was then made that suggested - and which I am happy to say, Mr . Speaker, was accurate and correct - that there was in fact not a severe hazard to the community of MacGregor, which latter events have proven out . But as I admitted to the honourab le member in a question yesterday, that I am not totally satisfied that we cannot improve on the reporting mechanism as be­ tween departments and the Emergency Measures ' role in dealing with these problems . MR .

COWAN : Thank you, Mr . Speak er. A supplementary to the Environmental Minister : Is the Minister prepared today to indicate if his department has re­ quested information on acc ident s and incidents involving radioactive materials from the Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establishment during the past two years and can he confirm that his dep artment has not made those reports fu lly public? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs . HON . WARNER JORGENSON (Morris ): Mr . Speaker, I can confi rm that I have made the enquiries ; I cannot confirm the answ ers. MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supplemen- tary . MR . COWAN: Thank you, Mr . Speak er. My supplementary is back to the Min is­ ter responsible for the Emergency Measu res Organizati on. Is the Minister prepared to investigate complaints by the Winnipeg Fire Chief that the Fire Department wa s not notified of the methanol spill by the CP Rail but wa s notified in fac t by an ind ividual, and can he further inform the House as to who exact ly, or which de­ partment or organiza tion notified the Emergency Measures Organization of this spill? MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Government Serv ices. MR . ENNS : Mr . Speaker, the supplementary question all ows me to correct perhaps a mistaken impression lef t by some of the reported comments that I made on the subject matter yesterday . Firstly, I want to indicate to the honourable mem­ ber that a reorganization of Emergency Measures Organization was ordered, in fact was suggested by the First Minister and government immediately following our ex­ perience af ter the las t flood of a year ago .

It is coincidental that it is just about at this time that we are in a state of readiness to implement some of these changes. One of the problems that the honourable member points out deals with the re­ porting and response mechanism that is now in plac e, which obviously, and I am prepared to acknowledge, does not in all instances app ropriately address itself to the problem .

The Fire Chief, Fire Chief Coulter in this instance, felt, and I think correctly so, that the in-place technique that the rai lway of ficials in this instance should have been aware of and should have been completely fami lar with, could not be reli ed upon . But again , Mr . Speaker, it has been fortunate in these - 2082 -

• Tuesday , 8 April 1980 instances that the situation was handl ed , and I think it bears underlining , cor­ rectly , appropriately , safely and that indeed no danger and or no serious accident other than the loss and damage to the car was in fact in place . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourab le Member for St . Vital . MR . D. JAMES WALDING : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . My question is to the Min­ ister reporting for Manitoba Hydro .

I'd like to ask the Minister whether it 's his intention to table in this House a copy of the letter that he sent on February lst , to the Premier of Alberta , and whether such letter makes the statement that the sale of any Manitoba Hydro power to Alberta would be at the equivalent rate to thermal power production in Alberta? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finan ce . MR . CRAIK : Mr . Spea ker , I' ll undertake to tab le that lette r, and then the member can read the contents of it di rectly . MR . WALDIN G : A supplementary question , Mr . Speake r.

What assurance can the Minister give to the people of this province that any firm power sale to Al­ berta would be sufficient to recapture all of the generation and transmission costs involved in the sale? MR. CRAIK : Mr . Speak er, these matters can be pursued further where there is appropriate time to examine them . The letter which the member ha s referred to will give some of the background of the initial assumptio ns. There will be other assumptions examined during the course of the further study that has been agreed upon by the three provinces. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St .

Vital with a final supplemen- tary . MR. WALDI NG : Mr . Speake r, I assume from the Minister 's reply to that ques­ tion that he can give no assurance to the people of Manitoba that there will be no subsidization of Alberta in any proposed firm power sales to that province . MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speak er, the member wi ll , I think , see upon reviewing the letter referred to that there is no assu mption made in there of any sort of sub­ sidy . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St . George . MR . BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr . Speak er .

I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and it relates to the statement that he made to this House last week. I would ask him, with respect to the Beef Income Assurance Plan , if he would care to cl ari fy his sta tement with respect to the Beef Income Assurance Plan on one hand in one part of his statement , saying , "· •• the plan has been a con­ tributing facto to the decli ne of the province 's cattle ," and yet on page 2 where he indicates that he supports a voluntary Beef Income Stabilization Program which would al low producers to operate?

Can the Minister indicate whether or not the Beef Income Assurance Plan that ha s been in effec t was in fact a voluntary program? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR . DOWNEY : Mr . Speak er , the program tha t the member refers to , the entry of that program was voluntar y for a period of five years . Once you signed up there was no more voluntary participation , you were a part of that contract for that particular period .

The kind of program which has been di scussed with the Federal Minister and other provincial Ministers has been a type of program that would be a pay- into-the-program on a yearly basis on a voluntary bas is, not a signing of a long term contract of the same type that we have seen here in the province over the last few yea rs. - 208 3 -

Tuesday , 8 April 198 0 MR. URUSKI : Mr . Speak er , it app ears that the onl y di fference is whether it 's a short term or a long term stab ility in the program . Could the Minister indicate whether or not the contract al lowed for the opting out of producers if they pa id back any moneys that were owing to the plan ; that they could opt out at any time which was not necessary to make the ann ouncement that the Minister made in this House of trying to confuse producers even more than he has already done in the last two years about the paying back , and the changes in the program that he has made? MR .

DOWNEY: Mr . Speak er , I think that most of the people and particularly the cat tle producers of this province would say that there has been a di fficult time understanding the program from Day One . It was a program which has created a lot of problems for the beef industry in the province . It 's created problems for those individuals who have had to pay back to the province moneys which they need to carry on with the production of beef and would in fact say that the type of program that we are deal ing with is one that was not formulated and put together in full consultation with the cattle industry .

I think it 's important that in putting together a program that that kind of consultation take place and I think that we 're able to do that now and I think that as far as a payback to the prov­ ince or opting out of the provincial program under the last administration were al lowed , 1470 opted out without any changes in the contrac t. We haven 't done any­ thing any di fferent in that particular regard . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for St . George with a final supplemen- tary . MR . URUSKI : Thank you , Mr . Speaker .

Could the Minister now indicate to us what incentive programs he intend s to bring in , since in his statement he indica­ ted that only incentive is necessary now to increase cattl e production and it was his government and his members who indicated that incentive programs to increase cattle production in Manito ba were a di rect result of low prices in this province , when in Canada we have been • • • MR. SPEAK ER: Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member perhaps he is deb ating rather than asking a question. Would the honourab le memb er care to ask a question? MR . URUSKI : Yes , Mr .

Speak er, I'd like to know what incentive programs the Minister now has for farmers with respect to increasing the supply of beef? Is it only to get rid of the stabil ity of incomes to the farmers by getting rid of the Income Assurance Plan or has he got some other plans? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR . DOWNEY : Mr . Spea ker , the first incentive that had to be provided to the cattl e producers of this province was to take the alb atross from around the necks that was lef t under the NDP government .

I think as we indicated in our statement , the long-term stabilit y of the industry should be provided under a national stabili zation program so that the competit ive advantage that the pro­ ducers of beef have in this MR . SPEAK ER: Order please . Order please . May I suggest the Honourable Minister is debat ing. The Honourable Member for Rossmere . MR . VIC SCHROED ER: Thank you , Mr . Speak er , a question for the Mini ster of Education . Could the Minister confirm that the students at Elkhorn School are still out and have been out since about the lOth of Mar ch. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gim li) : It is my under standing , Mr. Speak er, that the ma jority of students at Elkhorn are still out of school. - 2084 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . SCHROED ER: A supplementary question to the Minister of Educ ation , Mr . Speake r. Could I ask the Minister how many of the students at Elkhorn are in school and could I ask the Min ister to inform the House as to precisely what his department has been doing to insure that these children will be back in school and specifically what his department has been doing in the last several weeks? MR . COSENS : Mr .

Speake r, I have met with both parties to the dispute in that particular area , both the school board and the paren ts, and subsequent to those meetings both parties got together and the school board deferred their deci­ sion to close the high school at Elkhorn . However , subsequent to that decision the parents in that area have decided that they will still keep the ir children out of school pending a decision on whether their school staff will be reduced by one teacher or not - that is the issue at the present time . I have been urging both

part ies to get together and find some resolution to this problem , because I deplore , as much as I am sure the Honourable Member for Rossmere does , the fact that these children are out of school , they are the ones that are suffering , while the two parties in di spute are attempting to get togeth­ er and find some resolut ion. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supp lementary . MR . SCHROEDER: Thank you , Mr . Speake r.

Again to the Minister of Educa­ tion , could he confirm that all of the students are out at Elkhorn , or is it cor­ rect , as he said in his first answer , that some of them were out , and also could he inform the House as to whether his department has done anything in the last several weeks. He has indicated that there was a meeting between himself and the trustees and the pare nts, but he did n't say when.

My quest ion was, in the last severa l weeks , was there anything done by either him or his department to get this matter resolved , and furth er , could he ind icate whether he is considering appoin t­ ing an arbitrator to get this matter settled quickly? MR. COS ENS: Mr . Speak er, I think my first answer indicated really the pro­ cedure that had been taken by myself to get the two parties together, I would sug­ gest with some success, because that di d result in a subsequent dec ision not to close the particular high school in question .

However , another issue ha s arisen recently and again I find that the two parties are stal ema ted . Again I am encour­ aging them to get together to reach some resolution to the proble m . In answer to the member 's other quest ion, I understand there is one st• dent back at school in Elkhorn today . MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR . RANSOM : Mr . Speake r, I rise on a matter of Privilege of the House.

During the review of my Estimates on TUesday , March 25th, during questioning con­ cerning the presence or absence of some information , the Honourable Member for Rupertsland said , and I quote from Hansard , "The Minister 's Department has been practising file -burning , or book-b urning , or whatever they do to destroy such fil es, shredding , maybe ." And Mr . Speaker , at the time I asked the honourable member to withdraw, either to substantiate or withdraw that remark .

The honourab le member chose no t to with­ draw the remark , the Chairman took the question under advisem ent , and for the pe­ riod since the 25 th of Mar ch , the question had not been dealt with , even though Hansard was available for quite a period of time be tween las t night and the time that it came out . Now , I' ve taken the trouble to check the record last night , Mr .

Speaker , and when the Chairman asked the honourab le memb er to withdraw , he simply made some comments about his intention and then he said , "I should withdraw the information as it is printed in Hansard , but that is not the way in which I phrased the ques­ tion. " Mr . Speak er , it seems to me that this is a rather serious quest ion when a charge of that nature is made , and a member , sometime later , having had the op­ portunity to peruse Hansard , is able simply to allege that Hansard does not ac­ curately reflect what he said , tha t that is not what he said , and Mr . Spea ker , I - 2085 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 would ask you to take this question under advis ement to det ermine whether in fact there has been a breach of the Privilege of the House . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . HARVEY BOSTROM : Mr . Speake r, I believ e this matter was resolved last night during the committee .

The Chairman of the committee raised this issue , I had indicat ed at the time when the original question of privilege was ra ised that the Chairman should take it under advi sement , look at Hansard to see exactly what was said during the deba te , and to respond to the House , and if it was in question that I had made some remark that was unparl iamentary or that should be withdrawn , that I would withdraw it . And Mr . Speake r, my recollecti on of the deb ate is that I was posing that issue as a question to the Minister , not as an alle gation or a statement .

The issue in question wa s, what was happening to certain information that was in the files of the Department of Park s. I know it was in the files of the Department of Parks , and it is a policy that the Department of Parks had with respect to the deve lopment of the Whiteshell Park . This Minister and this government wants to try to make the case that that in­ forma tion is not available , and Mr . Speaker, I know that information is available , should be availa ble , and should be in the files of the Department of Park s. Dur­ ing the heat of deb ate at that time.

I phrased the issue in such a way, I belie ve , that I was asking the Minister how this information could not be in the possession of the dep artment at this time . What had happened to that information? And I asked the Minister at tha t time , I bel ieve , that the question was put , how did the information di sappear? And I bel ieve I asked , were they prac tising some des truc­ tion of files , or what? And when I look at Hansard , Mr . Speake r, it appears as though the pr·inting in Hansard puts that issue as a statement from myself. I believ e , Mr .

Chairman, that I phrased that as a question , not as a statement , not as an al legati on . And Mr . Speake r, the Chai rman acce pted my remarks last night and he was satisfied with my explanation of the issue , and now , Mr . Speak er, the Minister , even though he was here in the committee last night , heard that , did not raise any issue with it at tha t time and seeks to raise a further issue with it at this time . I would ask him where that information is, because we still haven 't heard a proper answer from the Minister. MR. SPEAKER : Order please .

The charge that was levelled by the Minister of Natural Resources , and indeed substantiated by the Honoura ble Member for Rupertsland , that Hansard is not reporting correctl y wha t members are saying , is a very serious charge . I would hope that perhaps the House should look at this and probably refer the matter to the Privileges and Elect ions Committee for their con­ sideratio n. I do not have the authority to make that kind of request of the House . It 's up to the House to handle the ma tter .

I think it is a serious charge , Hansard does come und er the responsibility of the Speake r, and the Speaker cannot def end himself in the Chamb er . The Honourable Member for St . Jo hns . MR . SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you , Mr . Speak er. I would like to ask a ques­ tion of the Minister of Agriculture to ascertain whether his department lacks the competence to st udy and investigate the ways of identif ying livestock for authen­ tification of ownership? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR . DOWNEY: Mr . Speake r, the question is asked about work that my depart­ ment is do ing.

No , I don 't feel that my department is incompetent in do ing cer­ tain work . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr . Chairman , in view of the fact that the Minister says he doesn 't believe that his department is incompetent in doing its work , then may I ask the Minister to explain why it is necessary that having himself moved and brought in a bill to the Legislature , empowering an organization to ra ise funds from its own membership and from all people who sell cattle , but do not withdraw - 2086 -

Tuesday , 8 April 198 0 their support ; an organization whose purpose and in- tent is to provide for financ ing an organization to initiate support or conduct programs dealing with the well-being of the cattle industry , why it is necessary for his dep artment to take to a self-susta ining, self-perpetuating organization and pay them a contract of some $33 200 to do what he indicates to me , I bel ieve, his dep artment is competent of doing on its own? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Agr iculture . MR . DOWNEY : Mr .

Speak er , the memb er is referring to a project that , in fa ct , me.mbers of his party were asking what was being done as far as the identifi­ cation of cattle or the actual problems that were created because of cattle rustling. I would indicate to him that we are working with the cattl e produ cers; we are having them do a study and recommendations on how best the situation could be de alt with. It think , Mr . Speak er , it is truly demonstrating how we can work with the agricultural producers of this province. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St . Johns with a final supplemen- tary . MR.

CHERNIACK : Mr . Spea ker , does the Minister then wish to inform the House that his department has to pay $33 ,2 00 to a private organization which has its own fund -rai sing capacity to do that work which is firstly within the purposes and intent of that organization itself; and secondly which he , I believe , would indicate is within the competence of his own dep artment to do? MR . DOWNEY : Mr .

Speak er , I feel that the contract that was entered into is to have work done for the bette r interests of the cattle produce rs, and in return , all the people of the province of Manitoba , far better than the $20 ,0 00 a year for $80 , 000 given to the Farmers• Union of this province without any strings attach ed , representing less than one percent of the farme rs of Manitoba , by the NDP Govern­ ment that was bef ore us . MR . SPEAK ER: Order. Order please . May I suggest that the Honourable Min­ ister is debat ing rather than providing answers to questions. The Honourable Member for Brandon East . MR.

LEONARD S. EVANS : Thank you , Mr . Speak er. I would like to address a question to the Minister of Finance , who is responsible for Manitoba Hydro , and ask him a question pertaining to the proposed pricing, possible pricing , of Mani­ toba Hydro power in the province of Albe rta . He ha s indicated that the pricing in the first 18 years may be tied to the cost of al ternative new thermal generation in Alberta . My question is: Will the Minister be using the expertise that is within the Manitoba Hydro Corporation or will he be using staf f from his new De­ partment of Energy? MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Finan ce. MR . CRAIK : I am using both , Mr . Speak er . MR . EVANS : In this respect als o , Mr . Speak er, could the Minister advise the House whether they intend to - they , I mean the provinces including Manitoba - intend to use the services of outside engineering consultants to any extent? MR . CRAIK : Mr . Speake r, the three-province study will be carried out pri­ marily by consult ant s. MR . SPEAKER: plementary . The Honourable Member for Brandon East with a final sup- MR . EVANS : Yes , well a supplementary then , Mr .

Speaker , the Minister is also quoted as saying that in the final analysis I expect the deal will take a judgmental decision by the Premiers. In other words, Mr . Speak er , it seems to me - 2087 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 the Minister is indicating that in the last analysis it will be a political dec is­ ion, and this is my question : Is the Minister indicating that the political de­ cision in the last analysis will be overriding the economic considerations in this matter? MR . CRAIK : No , Mr . Speak er, I bel ieve the member is perhaps reading the wrong intent into those word s. In the final analysis I expect the economic via­ bility will lead to a logical de cision. There are going to be other factors and considerations .

Even given the fact that it is economically viable , it will have to be taken into account by all of the provinces involved . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN : Mr . Speak er , I would like to dir ect a quest on to the Minister of Government Services and ask him if he can confirm that the province does use a number of private contractors for the pick-up and haul ic•g of garbage? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honoura ble Minister of Government Services. MR . ENNS: Mr . Speak er , I will have to take that question as notice . MR . DOERN : Mr .

Spea ker , since I believe it is a fa ct , I wonder whether the Minister would look into the charges in the city of Winnipeg Coun cil , that there has been price fixing in this field , and I wonder if he would compare the firms that the city has ind icated have been price fixing in their jurisdiction and see whether the same firms are dealing with the province, and determine whether there are any instances in that regard . MR . ENNS : Mr . Speak er , I would be happy to look into that .

I remind the honourable member though that I am looking forward to dealing with my Estimates in Room 254 as soon as the Honourable Member for St . Boniface has dealt with lot­ teries and my friend , the Minister responsible for Sports and Fitness , and we can perhaps di scuss it at that time . MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose. MR . A. R. (Pete) ADAM : Yes , Mr . Speak er , to the Ministeio of Agricul ture .

In view of the fact that the honesty of some of the directors of the Manitoba Livestock Cattle Association , who ar e involved in quest ionable ownership of cattl e di spute , how can he in good conscience allow these people to find means of identi­ fying cattle when some of them are involved in disputes of ownership of cattl e themselves? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Agricul ture . MR . DOWNEY: Mr .

Speak er , I bel ieve that in this country that everyone is innocent until proven guilty , and if the member has evidence that would conv�ct or put people in the light of being dishonest and has information , he should provide it to the proper authori ty. But at this particular point , all the people who are involved in the Ca ttle Producers Association are elected by the citizens of their own community , and if that is the de sire of the el ectorate , then that has been handled normally. MR. ADAM : Yes , Mr . Speak er, the membeio insists that these people are capa ble of identifying catt le , the ownership.

I have asked the Attorney-General to provide an investigation as to why di rectors on the Cattlem en 's Association have been involved in ownership of cattle that they didn 't own , in other word s, rus­ tl ing. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day . The hour for Question Period having expired , the Honourable Government House Lea der. - 2088 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE HON . GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne ) : Mr . Speak er , before proceeding with the Orders of the Day I might just confi rm , Mr . Speake r, a change in the order of Estimates inside the House as di scussed with the Opposition House Leade r. Fol low­ ing the completion of the Department of Natural Resour·ces , Mr . Speak er , there will follow the Department of Health , then Community Services and Corrections , then the Department of Educa tion . Mr . Speak er , I would now move , seconded by the Minister of Government Services , that Mr .

Speaker do now leave the Cha ir and the House resolve itself into a Com­ mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for Natural Resources and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for Co-Operativ e Development . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT MR . CHAIRM AN, Morris McGregor (Virden) : I call the Committee to order . We are now in Co-operative Development , Resolution 40 , l. (b) . The Honourable Minister . HON.

ROBERT (Bob ) BANMAN (La Verendrye ): Mr . Chairman , Thank you . It 's my pleasure to introduce to the honourable membe rs the Estimates of the Department of Co-operat ive Development for the year 1980- 81. The co-operativ e enterprise in Manitoba is an important element in the total social and economic structure of this province . It covers a broad spectrum of economic acti vity . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Loga n. MR . WILLIA M JENKI NS : Mr . Chairman, is there a new format for dealing with Estimates?

I know we have a resolution before the House , but it hasn 't been pass­ ed yet and until that is passed , I think that the Minister 's statement should come on 40( a) , not on 40 (b), the Minister 's Compensation. MR. BANMA N: Well Mr . Chairman , I think it 's been an establis hed practice , and I stand to be corrected , that the Minister is al lowed to make that a statement and then we go through the Estimates. MR . JEN KINS : Yes, but on (a) , not on (b) . MR . BANMAN: No ; my understanding is that (

a) is kept over as the last item which is to be discussed by the committee , and the format as spelled out in the other Estimates that I went through is precisely the one that we 'r e following here , that we start off with the second item and the (

a) item is carried over and is the last dealt with. MR. JENKI NS: Thank you Mr . Chairman. You must be following a di fferent procedure here than what they are in the House , because in the House the format - and the format when I was in the Chair in the House - we always started with the Minister 's Salary which was Compensa tion .

The Minister made a statement - I know that there is some contemplated change bein g made in a resolution that is present before the House or has appeared on the order paper , but at the present time the proper procedure is , we start on (a) , which is the Minister 's Compensat ion, and I would appreciate it if the Minister would make his statement there , we will then ma�e our comments on (b) . MR . CHAIRM AN: I think your Chairman was slightly wrong. I should have - 2089 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 rea lly - and I think the Member for Logan is reasonably correct that the Minister does make a statement on l.( a) , no reply , and then we 'r e on to l. (b) . And as much as I bel ieve I was in error , and an yway , it 's l. (a) . The Honourable Minister . Thanks for correcting me too , committee . MR . BANM AN: As I mentioned , the co-operative enterprise in Manitoba is an important element in the total social and economic structure of this province. It covers a broad spectrum of economic acti vity , and in some areas i is a dominant force - agriculture being one specific exampl e.

The significant size and the size of the co-operat ive enterpri ses in Manitoba can perhaps be best illustrated by statistics which show that the 276 co-operatives and 197 credit unions and caisses populaires regis tered in this province have more than 240 ,0 00 and 351 ,0 00 members respectively , and over $1.6 bill ion in assets . These statist ics , Mr . Chairman, do not include federally registered co-operatives operating in this province . If they did the figures would be much more significant .

The role and objectives of the dep artment are to create an environment in which the co-operative enterprise can achieve stability and growth and an environment in which it can operate according to the principles upon which it was founded . Th is, Mr . Chairman , has been achieved through the provisions of the modern legislat ion , as expressed in The Co-operatives Act proclaimed in June 1977 and The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Ac t was proclaimed in November 1979 .

Both acts had been developed in close consultation with the Co-operative Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires systems in Manitoba and the centra l societies which are representative of these systems. The acts incorporate much of the recent changes in both the provincial and federal corporate law and provide an ef ficient and progressive legislative system. The acts provide for protection for members and reflect the principles upon which the system was establis hed .

The dep artment therefore serves two main func tions ; one being the regulatory body on the Co-operative and Credit Union and Caisses Populaires system; the other as support to development of those systems to the point of self-suffici ency and self -reliance . Much of the efforts in the past year have been expended by the department in assisting Co-operatives to comply with the requirements of the new Co-operatives Act . Th is program including assistance with statements of articles of incorporat ion, updating and drafting of by-laws and other legal requirements. This program is now nearing com pletion.

A close working relat ionship with the Credit Union and Caisses Populaires and Co-operative system has been developed and is being ma intain ed . With the coming into force of The Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires Act in November of this pa st year , the department will over the next two years be assisting the Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires to comply with the requirements of the act similar to the assistance given to the Co-operatives . This program is expected to be co m­ pleted some time in the year 1981 . During the past year , Mr .

Chairm an, major ef forts of the dep artment were dir ected towards northern Manitoba , particularly the commercial fishing ac tivity and I'm very happy to report that all Co-operatives have been consistently improv­ ing their financial position with no recorded losses for the pa st period reported and it looks like 1979 has been the best year yet . Some of the plans for the co m­ ing year , Mr .

Chairman , include the development of a monitoring system which will serve as an early warning and which will provide the de partment with acc urate and prompt information on the position of Co-operatives and Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires in order that it can react readily where acti on is deemed nece ssary . The department is als o strengthening its abilit y to assist in the area of recruitment of development off icers specializi ng in agriculture and one particular officer specializ ing in the area of housing . This , Mr .

Chairman , will improve the abil ity of the department to respond to the needs of Co-operatives in these specific area s. I would also at this time , Mr . Chair man , like to e�tend my thanks to the staff of th.e · department of Co-operative Development for their assistance and support over the past years and would like to say in

summary that the empha sis toward stabi lity and orderly development of the Co-ops and Credit Unions and Caisses Populaires systems will be maintained in the ensuing year. Thank you , Mr . Chairman. - 2090 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . CHAIRMAN : l. (b) (l)--p ass. The Member for The Pa s. MR . McBRYDE : The Minister 's statement gives us a very short

summary of the exisit ing situati on . I think the one area where we have to di sagree with the Minister is in terms of the importance and the emphasis that is given to this departm ent . I suppose one small example , Mr . Chai rman , when the Minister was giv­ ing his statement , the Minister was the only member of the government side besides yourself that was in the Chamb er,

whereas there were seven members from the opposition in order to hear about and ask about the Department of co-operativ e develo pment . But , Mr . Chairperson , the most significant thing is that this depa rtment , since the Conservative government came to office , has been reduced and been dec lining , and has had less and less a role to play in terms of ass isting with the co-operative and cred it union development since 1977 . Mr .

Chairper son, in the est imates of 1977-78 the figure fo r this departm ent was $1.6 milli on, in terms of the efforts of the department to stimulate and encourage co-operativ es , and to stimulate and encourage and assist credit unions and cai sses populaires within the province of Manitoba . So , what we have seen is a signifi­ cant or drastic decl ine in the importance of this department and in the efforts that this department has been putting forward , which is one aspect where we dis­ agree with the government on.

As members of the opposition , we feel that the co­ -operatives and the cred it unions have a major and crucial role to play in the economy of Manitoba , and not a minor and insignificant role as the present govern­ ment appears to believe , by its actions .

I think the Minister is probably quite well aware that in terms of rural Manitoba , the credit union movement ha s been one of the main methods , the main mechanisms for small communities such as the Minister 's own home community of Steinbach and Morden and Winkler and communities in southern Manitoba; ha s been one of the main instruments by which the community is able to accu mulate some capital ; is able to keep fund s within the community . Mr .

Chairman , a look at the economic history of rural Manitoba would show that , in fa ct , what has happened economica lly is that the banking system has ba sicall y drained money out from the rural part of our province , and that those communities that have gone into credit unions and have gone into the co-operative movement , have in fact been the ones that have been able to develop. They 'v e been able to develop that , Mr .

Cha ir­ person , in terms of being more self-sufficient in terms of capital , that is the capital that has been generated in their community , has been used in their com­ munity to regenerate more capital. Mr . Chairperson , economica lly that is the way that things should ha ppen in terms of develo pment , rather than having money go from one pa rt of our province to another part out of the province of Manitoba , as it does with so many of our ec onomic institutions in the province of Manitoba . Mr .

Chairperson, that is one of the reasons why the New Democratic Party would like to see an increased emphasis , inc eased ef forts in terms of the cred it un·on and caisses populaires movements in the province of Manitoba ; not just a mainten­ ance acti on , and not just standing back and lett ing the exis ting situation stay as it is , and not the type of stagnation to develop within the movement that has dev­ eloped in the economy of Manitoba generally under the Conservat ive Governmen t, but to actu ally stimulate and generate and use the cre dit union and co-op movement to stimulate the economy of Manitoba to get it out of its present stagnant state that we are now fac ing in the province of Manitoba .

Mr . Chairman , what we have is a government that is unwilling to give that empha sis to the credit union movement , to the co-operative movements in the province of Manitoba . Instead , Mr . Chai rman , they want to put all their eggs, or all the eggs of the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba , into stimulating just one sector of the economy and that is the private enterprise sector of the economy .

And this is why this department has dec lined from a $1.6 million depart­ ment to a $826 , 000 in terms of efforts to assist , to support , to encourage , to generate activity in terms of the co-operative and credit union . But Mr . Chair man , they 'r e will ing to increase the funds and give away assist­ ance and give away gran ts to the private sector , but they have withdrawn the kind of support that they have been able to give to co-operatives and credit uni ons. And , Mr . Chairman , I think that shows the thrust and the problems that this government fac es. - 2091 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 r. Chairper son, I think here that in terms of my fami liarity with the history of the northern co-operativ es , that cred it ha s to go to a previous Conservative government . The Roblin government made considerable ef fort to encourage co­ -operativ es , to assist co-operativ es , Mr . Darwin Chase was heavily involved in that eff ort to stimulate co-operatives in the fishing com munities , both fishing co-operatives and retail co-operatives in northern Ma nitoba , and that effort should be app lauded . But Mr .

Chairperson , those were the days when the word "progressive" was still within the Progressive Conservative Party . Once Mr . Roblin left , the word "progressive" di sappeared from the vocabular y of the Conservative Party in the province of Manitoba , and now we have a reactionary government , Mr .

Chairman , and it 's one that I don 't understand , because many of the members of the Conservative Party are from constituencies that have benefited a great deal from the co-operat ive movement and the credit union movement; and why now , they should be pushed aside by a rigid , dogmatic , right-wing political position that is conservative , and no longer progressive conservative , in order to put all the emphas is and all the effort into stimulating just the one segment , the priv�te enterprise , or the private busin ess segment of our population , as opposed to the efforts of the co-operative and credit unions which are the citizens of our province banding together to do things for themselves and for the province of Manitoba .

Mr . Chairperson, the other serious problem that the Minister fac es , and the Minister should be made aware of, and his staff should be made aware of, is in terms of the fishing co-operativ es . The Minister reported to us that those fi sh­ ing co-operatives that have survived , and that have gotten along with the de­ creased emphasis by this government , that they are now financially viable , they are not losing money in this particular year . Mr .

Chairperson , the northern fish­ ing co-operat ives have been a very important part of community development in the northern part of our province in helping communities to begin to do things for themselves . Mr . Chairperson , this wasn 't done without a considerable struggle with the exi sting structure when these co-operatives came into eff ec t, when the private fish companies and the private buyers fought against the establi shment of co-operatives in many communities in northern Manit oba .

But the Minister now , and the Minister 's departme nt , now faces a serious challenge to those fishing co-operativ es , and I hope that the Minister understands the nature of the problem that those co-operatives face . Mr . Cha irman , I wish the Minister would listen because it 's going to be very important to his conducting this ministry ; so Mr . Cha irman , maybe I' ll just wait for a minute until the Minister ha s a chance to listen to the • • . MR . BANMA N: Go ahead . MR . McBRYD E: Mr .

Chairman , the problem that the Minister faces doesn 't come in terms of the manageme nt of the co-operatives in the north , doesn 't come from the lack of resource in the north , the problem that is facing the fishing co-operatives in northern Manitoba now comes from his colleague , the Minister of Resources.

The Minister of Resources announced , and was going to bring into effe ct , and had publicly stated and sent letters to all the fishermen , that the fish licensing system would be changed eff ective June lst of this year, and that those changes would provide leasing of lakes to commercial fishermen . and they would all ow the selling of the commercial fishing licences. Mr .

Chairperson, those are the regulations that were announced to come into effect and have since been suspended , but those regulations , besides being a major threat to the loca l communities and existing commercial fishermen in the province of Manitoba , are a real threat to the co-op fisheries in the various remote com­ munities in the province of Manitoba , because the battle is going on right now , Mr . Chairperson .

It 's been going on ever since these co-operatives were formed with previous fish buyers now working for the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation - still not bel ievers in the co-operat ive fisheries , except when they have to be . And there has been a problem , Mr . Chairperson , in some of the communities them­ selves . Because in some cases people that are members of the co-op have in fact bought goods through the co-op , bought their supplies , their nets, weights , etc , through the co-op , and then have tried to sell their fish to other agents except - 2092 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 the co-op . Mr . Chairperson , this is a prob lem , I guess in the competitive fishery situat ion , but it 's one that the co-ops have been able to deal with.

I'm aware of a number of instances where co-op members have in fact sort of violated the principles of their own co-op and sold elsewhere to avoid paying their bills to the local co-op ; have now gone back to their co-op , paid their bill s , and asked to be re-accepted by the co-op , and the co-op , giving consideration , has decided to allow them to come back into the co-op with the clear understanding that they will be supporters of the co-op and not go to other agents of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation to sell their fish.

So the situation is that the co-ops are surviving, but whether or not the co­ -ops wou.ld survive when the Minister of Resources decides to lif t the suspension and implement the announced regulations in terms of commercial fishing , which will all ow fish'ing licences to be sold out of the communities as the proposal was put forward . So Mr . Chairman , that you or I could go into remote communities , find people in a state - perhaps , as some fishermen said to me , there would be some licences changing hands in the pub on Saturday night - so you , Mr .

Chai rperson, and I, could go up to the communities and start buying up fishing licences if these new regulations come into eff ect . Mr . Chairperson, I want the Minister to consider what that would do to the fishing co-ops if people from outside that community were in fact able to control the licences ; then I would submit that that would mean an end to the co-ops which are based in the local communities and which are doing a good job for the loca l communities .

The other area that the Minister touched on , and I'm glad to see there is a little bit of increased ef fort now , al though I'm assuming from my experience with this department and with this government in general that it 's reduced over what it was previously , under the previous administr ation , that there is at least some eff ort to give assistance to the field of housing and to housing co-operat ives, Mr .

Chairperson, because there are , in a number of areas of our province , a group that has been struggling to get the housing co-operatives establ ished and it 's been a fight every step of the way, as I understand it . It hasn 't been easy , and the fact that some of these groups have been abl e to succeed is mostly due to their own determin ation , as opposed to the kind of assistance they could get from this Minister and this departm ent . So Mr . Cha irperson , those are my concerns in terms of this departm ent .

I would , of course , welcome the Minister 's reassurance if they are backed up by con­ crete acti on , concrete programs and concrete doll ars in terms of assi sting the co-op and credit union movement , because they are a very important part of the Manitoba economy and could be even a more important part of our economy if we give them the support , advice , assistance and backup that they need to develop them selves and to develop on behalf of their members in the province of Manitoba . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR . BANMA N: Mr.

Chai rman , to respond to several of the questions and several of the statements the Member for The Pas made . First of all , let me tell the member that the develo pment

section , in other words , the

section dea li g with the fishing co-ops , dealing with the co-op movement generall y , as far as develop­ ment is concerned , is the same number as it has been for the last num· er of years. There have not been any cutb acks , this administration did not have any cutbacks in that field . Where there have been certain changes is in the field of administration and the field of general research and personnel services , which is being handled through a joint department now th rough the Department of Fitness, Recreat ion and Sp ort .

So there have been certa in scales of economy , because as the member can app reciate , this is not a big department and does not require a whole group of administrative and payroll people for itself if that service can be provided by another department . So the Fi tness, Recreation and Sport is providing that service to the Co-op Branc h. The other thing that should be pointed out .

In 1974 , when he was a member of the government and I was a member of the opposition , we passed a bill in this Legislatur e deal ing with the new changes with regard to the auditi ng function of this particular departme nt , and what we 'v e seen happen over the last number of years would have happened regardless wh' ther the member was Minister or myself - 209 3 -

Tuesday , 8 April 198 0 would be , and that is that the auditing function which we used to have is now be­ ing carried on by the department or the Stab fund themselves . So that was a change that was made and everybody knew that the size of the departm ent would go down , and this has actu ally been a trend , I believe right across the western prov­ inces, with the functions going over to the groups , they become sel fgoverning .

The other thing that should be pointed out is that a lot of the staff man years and a lot of moneys expended previously was spent on the develo pment of the Co-op Curriculum Program , which the government has sold to the Co-Op College of Canada . So Mr . Chairman , the MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of clari ficat ion. MR . SAM USKIW : Just a clari ficat ion, did the Minister say sold , or gave away the curricul um project? MR . USKIW : Okay . MR. BANMAN: We sold it, Mr . Chairman . So that particular function is gone . But I can assure the Member for The Pas that the development

section , in dealing with the fishing co-ops , has not been diminished . We have , I' m proud to say , a very good group of people in that particular department that have worked well with the fishing co-op s. Just to give you a bit of an example , in 1977 the fishing co-ops production in pounds was 5 1/2 milli on , in 1978 it was 6.7 milli on and this year it was 7.8 milli on . There has been a substantial increase in the number of pounds that have been fished . Also , the sale prices have gone up sub­ stantial ly . Total as sets and the memb er 's equity in these co-ops have als o gone up .

We are now looking at trying to possibly reactivate some of the other fishing co-ops that did have di fficulty in the pa st, and working with them , but , as the member can appreciate , that if the members , with regard to the operating of a co­ -op aren 't convinced themselves that this is the way they want to go , there are certain problems and you ca n't force something like this down people 's throats and the development is taking place in an orderly fashion. He also has to remember that where a person sells • You can be a member of a co-op, but that doesn 't mean you have to sell you fish there .

I bel ieve , and I' m not going to get into the fishing thing because I'm not that versed in the thing, but I bel ieve that the FFMC is the one that determines where people sell their fish . In other words , just because you 'r e a member you don 't have to sell it to that particular co-op . In travell ing through the north and visiting a number of these co-ops , I think the thing that has really impressed me is the dedication to which a lot of the people in the communities give to their co-op system and the pride which they dis­ play in their fac ilities .

You just have to go through when they 'r e busy in fall or in other seasons and see how they 'v e whitewashed them and done proper ma inten­ ance because they ' re proud of their fa cilities , and I'm happy to say that they have been doing well in the last little while and we 'r e going to continue to support their effo rts. With regard to the housing side of things, as the member possibly is aware of, there were several housing co-operatives formed and built ; one in Brandon and , I think , two or three in Winnipeg . They are experiencing certain di fficulties be­ cause of some occupancy problems .

We have , through the Co-op Promotional Board , given them some assistance . We als o gave them a grant of $40 ,0 00 last year ; we will be giving them another $30 , 000 this year , plus dedicating one staff man year in dealing with their particular probl ems , as I mentioned , because some are having financial di ffic ulty . So we are trying to give them a hand .

But again , I have to stress one thing: One of the basic problems we have when we 'r e dealing with co­ -ops is that it is a vehicle whereby people can take advantage and collectively form , ei ther a consumer 's co-op or a housing co-op , or whatever, but they have to have the courage of their conviction and they also have to put their time and energy into the thing. Just by going out and sell ing $5 . 00 membe rships in a cred it union or a co-o p doe sn 't mean that particular institution will flourish.

And I speak as a lif elong member , especially of the credit union movement , and I' ve seen what a good manag er , a good board of directors and people dedicated to the principles involved with the co-op system can att ain , and to those ends this - 2094 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 department is trying to help people to make sure that this avenue is available to them and that the resouces are available to them from the staff, MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member from The Pa s. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairperson , my initial involvement with the co-op move­ ment was as an empl oyee and it was not as pleasant as the Minister outl ined be­ cause we had several union problems with that particular co-op, but I do bel ieve in the principle and am now a member of the credit union . Mr . Chairperson, this is a couple of separate questions .

First of all , if the Minister could give us the figure in terms of the cred it unions in Caisses Populair es ; what is happening? Is there an expansion in their activities in terms of numbers , doll ars ; sort of a statistical outl ine to give us a picture of what is happening in that regard? And als o , Mr . Chairperson, I would really like the Minister - maybe he could deal with that question a littl e bit later and first deal with the one I raised before in terms of the problem the fishermen 's co-ops are going to face if the license changing comes into eff ect.

Now the Minister ha s pointed out already that there 's been an increase in the production and , M • Chairpe rson, the main reason , the realisLi c reason for that increase is because of the better fish prices . And one of the reasons for the better fish prices is the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. So Mr . Chair­ person , I agree with the Minister 's figures and the Minister 's stat istics and that things are going well at this point with the fishing co-operativ es. Mr .

Chairperson, just to empha size the point I was trying to make for the Minister , I have a copy here of an appl ication for assistance from the Grand Rapids Fishermen 's Co-op of Grand Rapids , Manitoba and , Mr . Chairperson , just in part of their submission they say the Grand Rapids Fishermen 's Co-op Limited is a co-op owned , operated and controlled by its members which comprises both Treaty and non-Treaty fishermen who reside in Grand Rapids. The co-op serves as a marketing agency for its member fishermen, whose main source of income is derived from commercial fishing.

It buys the fish caught by memb ers , processes the fish and sells to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation in Transcona , Winnipeg. Any savings that may be made from the operation is passed on to its members in accordance with their patronage . This is required to be done by resolution passed at the co-op 's annual meeting each year. The number of fishermen served by the co-op is eighty-five . Th is number is likely to increase if and when the provin­ cial government lif ts its present restrictions on commercial fishing licenses in the area . Now , Mr .

Chairperson , they mention that in a submission as part of the ef fect­ iveness and the worthwhileness and the economic viability of their co-operativ e . The same members of the co-o perative , these 85 fishermen together , when hearing the proposals of the new licensing regulat ions , totally as a group , rejected the proposed regulations by the Minister of Resources . And they did so , Mr . Chairman , on the basis that I mentioned , that we want to control the licenses within Grand Rapids and we want our fishermen to be able to control licenses within Grand Rapids.

We do not want any outside people having licenses in our particular com­ munity . This resource belongs to the community that exists here and the fishermen that live here . And Mr . Chairperson , this would not be the only fishermen 's co­ -operat ive that could be in serious trouble if the Minister of Resources proceeds with his licensing proposals . So , I would like to ask the Minister , first of all , if his staff has made the situat ion clear to the Minister , because his staff have been dealing with fisher­ men in northern Manitoba for a long time .

They know the people ; they know the situation and , if they have any understanding at all , they will know that the new licensing is going to hurt the fishing co-operatives in northern Manitoba . So I want to know if the Ministers ' staff has pointed the problem out to him ; what 's going to happen to the fishing co-operatives if new licensing comes in; whether the Minister has made any presentation or has had any di scussion with the Minister of Resources and his cabinet col leagues in terms of the implementation of these new licensing regulations that will hurt the fishing co-operatives in northern Ma nitoba .

So , Mr . Chairperson, those are two separate and di stinct questions that I pose to the Minister . - 2095 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR . BANMAN: Well , to deal with the first one , I understand from my develop ment of ficers, who have gone abr oad in the field , that there was certain apprehension with regard to the particular policy after they had a chance to look at it and talked about it , so that the consensus that came out of the fishing co­ -ops was that the co-operative was moving in a system to get control of the licences in that area and there would be no ma jor adverse ef fect at all on the co-op movement as su ch.

The other question that we were talking about is the Credit Union Ca isses Populaires Movement , and maybe I can give you comparative figures . 1975-76 figures in Manitoba , there were 192 Credit Unions Ca isses Populai res ; there were 295 ,0 00 members in Manitoba then , and now there are 352 ,0 00 roughly , so it is an increase of about 55, 000 members in a matter of 3 or 4 years . The other thing that has happened is that the assets have grown from 1975 from $638 milli on to 1978 of $1.14 billi on , so there has been alm ost a doubling of the amount of assets in the Credit Union Movement .

That re ally outstrips what some of the other ar eas have been doing with the exception of Quebec which has a very act­ ive Credit Union Movement . But , for instance , our neighbour to the west of us di d not increase that dramatica lly, in Saskatchew an, but do have a somewhat larger asset figure than we do because it is really sort of where the whole movement got started . But, as I mentioned , we 'v e had an increase roughly of about 5 Cred it Unions ; this takes into consideration also that there have been a number of mergers.

You had some , I think the Thompson-Leaf Rapids there was a merger, there has been some mergers here in Winnipeg , so that the figure is a little bit out , it doesn 't provide a proper comparison with regard to that particular situation. MR . McBRYDE: Yes , Mr . Chairperson . If the concern hasn 't been expressed to the Minister by his staff in terms of the proposed licencing changes , then some­ body obviously doesn 't know what is happening in northern Ma nitoba , Mr .

Chairman , because the regulations were announced on October 9th , 1979 , and it said , "A new Manitoba government policy on commercial fisheries will be in effect commencing June lst , 1980 . This lease will all ow the hold er to sell or assign it to another individual if he so chooses ." That was the announced policy and the announced program .

If that program came into ef fect it is my opinion , and the opinion of all the fishermen I have talked to , including all those that are members of fish­ ing co-operatives , that would hurt the fishery , hurt the fi sherman , and hurt the fishing co-operatives in northern Ma nitoba . So , Mr . Chairman , I would hope the Minister would maintain a vigilance in terms of what is going to happen with those proposed licences. Now if there is a complete change in that policy as we have recommended , that is, a withdrawal of this policy and a new policy brought forward , then that might be a di fferent situat ion.

But as it was announced by the Minister and has not been changed by the Minister in terms of any statements he has ma de , the proposed changes in fishing regulations would severely hurt the co-operative movement . The other question , Mr . Cha irperson , to the Minister, is in terms of, for examp le , the proposal that I read from the Grand Rapids Co-operative was an application under the LEAP Program to improve their ice sheds and to bring in more ice for the summer season. Mr .

Chairperson , during the years when the fish prices weren 't quite as good as they have been this past year there were various prov­ incial programs , and I have raised this with the Minister bef ore , that helped the co-o ps to be economically viab le , and that is there were winter works programs or special northern employment programs that in fact al lowed them to fix up their ice houses, to fix up their filleting operat ion , to bring in ice , and these have all been cut out by the provincial government and the only place , the only possibil­ ity , that the co-ops now have is in fact the Federal Government , what is called the LEAP Program, and what is cal led the Interim LEAP P' ogram may provide some assistan ce .

I am not aware whether this particular application has been accepted or no t. But in the past that has been a very important part of the fisheries in the remote communities , especially for those co-ops which were very marginal , where there was a question whether they were going to survive or not survive . So I wonder if the Minister has made any effort since I last spoke to him on this matter to encourage other dep artment in the provincial government generally to - 2096 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 re-establish some of these programs that were used quite considerably by the fish­ ing co-operatives in northern Ma nitoba . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa . MR . DAVID BLAKE : Yes , Mr . Chairman , I just wanted to make one or two comments. When I came in the Member for The Pas was carrying on his usual tirade against the Conservative Government and the reactionary control that we have im­ posed on the system, and I am not going to go into that because we have heard him over and over again , it is just a broken record that he played back again for us.

But I just wanted to comment and cl arify for the record some of his remarks con­ cerning credit unions and the banking system. I will say at the outset , Mr . Chairman, that I don't hold a brief for either one of them. I would say I am a member of the cred it union and I owe the credit union far more money than I owe the Royal Bank , but the credi t union movement is aliv e and well in the communit ies and the figures that the Minister just gave you is some indication of the growth that they are enjoying.

They are able to compete in the financial community quite well and I don 't know what the member for The Pas is after , how much more govern­ ment control or government interference he wants in the operation . Knowing the people involved in the cred it union and the co-operative movement in my particular area , I think they would thank Mr . Government just to stay out of their business and let them run it as they will.

But the Member for The Pas mentioned that while the funds of the credit union stayed within the community , and I agree with him on that , but he mentioned that the funds of the banks was being siphoned off the communities .

I just wan ted to straighten him out on one point because many of the cred it unions are reasonably small in capital and if there should happen to be a demand in the area for several mill ions of dollars , such as there has been for schooi divisions , the cr edit unions simply don 't have that kind of money , and there may not be that kind of money within the particular branch of the bank in that town , but they can draw on all the resources of the banking system throughout Canada . I just did n't want to leave that impression that the banks merely take the money out of a community and run with it .

They have served the communities that they have been in extremely well over the past number of yea rs , as has the cred it union movement , and the fact that it is growing as well as it is, is ample evidence of the fact that they have become sophisticated , they are computerized now and they are able to compete in the financial community very very well. I would think , speaking from my partic­ ular area , that the less government interference they have in their operation the better . They have experienced except ional growth in some areas and they have ex­ perienced setback s.

I know the Portage la Prairie Credit Union has just announced that they lost over $3 mill ion last year , so they can have reverses as well as successes , but they are able to draw on the system , they have a stab ilization fund and a good prudent management will protect the dep ositor 's funds there , the same as they will in the banking system. The Credit Union or the Co-operative movement is only as strong as the management and the people they have running it. There is a very huge co-operative in Brandon , Ma nitob a that 's now closed.

They went broke because they were unable to either compete in the marketplace and get their share of the business or they had bad managem ent ; I do n't know what it was, but that building is closed up. It 's a massive buildi ng and it had a for sale sign on it the last time I drove by . So they have their proble ms as well as their successes and I suggest to you , Mr .

Chairman , that they are able to compete in the fina ncial community and the co-ops are able to compete in the community with the other businesses and thGt 's the best break that the consumer is going to get where there is real good and fair competition. If he doesn 't choose to deal at the Co-op . he has some other place to deal . I have seen towns where whole businesses have become co-operative move­ ments.

The garage beca me a part of the co-op ; the grocery store ; all of the other fac ilities in that town merged and became one co-op and that town dried up because there was no other place for the customer to go . There was r'O competition in town . They had to go to the co-op and shop there or they didn 't shop anywhere: and , consequently , they went to the other towns where they had some choice and some diversificat ion. - 2097 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 So I say the less involvement and interference that the government has with the co-operative and the cred it union movement, the happier they 'r e going to be , especially the ones in my ar ea. MR. BANMA N: Mr . Chairman , if I can ju st brief ly answer some of the questions . I understand there is something like five or six co-ops which right now I have appli cations bef ore LEAP . I understand that the Minister of Northern Aff airs is looking at the SNEP program .

There are certain funds that might be available in that area but I should als o point out that the dep artment does all the aud iting and provides consultation services , as well as assistan ce , anywhere we can with regard to the purchasing of fishing nets and things like that and providing loan guarantees on that so that the expenses are kept down to a minimum .

Th is ha s, over the last couple of years , strengthened the movement to the point where some of them are showing some pretty healthy profits , if you want to call it that . which we hope will, al ong with some of the programs that they can apply for, help to upgrade their fa cilities. Some of them are pretty am bit ious programs. I think the one in Norway House is looking at an application o� some­ thing like $199 ,0 00 .0 0. So there are some pretty am bitious programs .

Others are smaller in which they maybe want to expand the ice fishing tha t the member mentioned or other things but we are trying to endeavour to provide them with certain services of an accounting nature , al so of a support nature , which hope­ ful ly will help them increase their equity positions to the members and increase their total assets , so that they are helping themselves to a large extent and I think that 's what the system is all abo ut. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Membe fo r Lac du Bonnet . MR . USKIW : Thank you , Mr . Chairman.

I don 't want to strongly disagree with the comments made by the Member for Minnedosa because , by and large , I think it is correct that the strength of a co-operative movement has to come from within the movement itself and there is no amount of government input that is going to make it successful if the will ingness isn't there to want to be successful . But that doesn 't mean , Mr .

Chairm an , that government doesn ·t have a role to play and , to me , the minimum role that the government ha s to play ha s to be in the field of making people aware of all of the opportunities in society through their educational system. This is where I bel ieve this government has launched quite a torpedo against the credit union movement when they dec ided not to proceed with and not to further the co-operative curriculum program through the school system, the program that was establis hed over two or three years and which cost the people of this province a substantial amount of money . Mr .

Cha irman , if the government di dn't like that particular package , I' m sure it had the opportunity to make some changes in order to satisfy it 's particular desir es. But to have no input whatever, I think is wrong.

It seems to me that the Co-operative Department should be working very closely with education in order that there be some input into the school system so that the kids that take these courses know something about how to form co-operati ves ; how they function as opposed to other groups in society ; how credit unions function compared to banks ; how the elevators fun ction ; co-ops versus nonco-ops ; advantages and dis­ advantages .

All of these things, in my opinion , are quite reasonable to be within the school program , and tha t was the att empt a few years ago and of course that , now, is no longer available and there is nothing in its pla ce . So I think , Mr . Chairman , that is proba bly , I suppose , the condemna tion tha t I would have on the dep artment 's ef fort , that they obviously are not interested in providing general information to the student bodies of our schools , at whatever level. I think that 's sad .

It seems to me that your school te:-·t ought to have some balan ce ; that if you 'r e talking about how to use money , you should talk about two ways of - I shouldn 't, I did n't want to use the words, banking money - there are banks , and there are cred it unions . -- (Interject ion )-- Well I' m not suggest­ ing you did , but I think it 's too narrow in its def inition, that money management can be handled co-operatively through credit unions or it can be hand led through banks .

I think both should be spell ed out in the text so the kids come out of school knowing something about what their options are in the business world . -- (Interject ion)-- Well no , the curr iculum is really the responsibil ity of - 2098 -

Tuesday , 8 April 198 0 governments, not the school board s. The school boards an d the teaching profession were very much co-operative in developing the curriculum project that was developed a few years ago . They played a major role in it, along with the credit unions and the co-operat ives. I think it 's just a real reflection on the govern­ ment as to its att itude on this kind of economic develop ment , Mr . Chairman . I believe that this government wants the deck to be slanted or stacked against the co-o perative option on the part of people in our soc iety. I think that 's a bias that should not be there .

I don 't why they should be hung up on it . If people want to do it voluntari ly , I think that the mechanics of it should be made availabl e, the proper regulations ought to be in place , and certainly the inform­ at ion should be at hand so that people know what is indeed possible and availa ble . The other point that I would like to ra ise is the question of, given the fac t that we have a very tight money market at the moment , whether there is anything that the Minister may be able to do , along with the Cred it Union movement , to dea l with that situation.

I say that only in recognition of th fact that the prov­ incial government has constitutional jurisdic tion over the cred it unions in Manitoba , and the question really relates to reserve requ · rements , and it · s a regulatory function of government . Has the Minister looked at the regulations as they are with respect to reserve requi rements, and have they discussed those re­ quirements with the co-op movement to determine whether or not we coul dn 't have a little more cap ital available in the Manitoba money market through this media , Mr . Chairman.

Certainly it should be explored , there may be a means of doing some­ thing if the government was at all interested in moving in that directi on . MR . BANMAN : Mr . Chairman , first of all , to deal brie fly with the Co-op Curriculum Program. One of the proble ms we had when we , and I' m sure the members opposite had the same problem in dealing with that particular issue , and that was that you had one dep artment of government developing a curriculum program which the other department of government was then supposed to includ e in the educational program.

Last year when we were deal ing with the Co-op College of Canada , on that particular ma tter , I me t with some of my counterparts in Saskatchewan who were , of course , the same pol itical philosophy as my friends opposite.

At that time , it was interesting , J thought , that a Minister of the Crown from over there mentioned to me the same type of feelin gs that I had with regard to th is, in other words , should one department of government be involved in going ahead and then forcing another dep artment , or putting a lot of pressure on, even at the ministerial level , for an other department to go ahead and put that particular program on the curriculum asp ect. So Mr . Chairman , we sat down and we talked to the Co-op College . The Co-op College is a national organization which most co-operative groups belong to .

In talking to them they were very enthusiastic about working out a deal with the province, and they would then , in turn , work with the department here in promoting the book and the books to the di fferent school boar ds. I' m happy to say that the transition and the transfer of the materials has gone very smoothly . I just re­ ceived some correspondence last month from them , they indicate - maybe we can go through it during a few of the things here - we have di spatched , this is the Co-op College , we have di spatched materials to education co-ordinators and to co­ -operatives to all parts of canada .

To this date they indicate that they have distributed 81 copies of the Co-operative and Community Lif e b<Jok , 89 copies of the Co-operative Outlook Social Studies , and 101 copies of the Co-operative Outlooks Business Education to educators in Manitoba . So we are working with them in the promotion of this particular boo k. They are al so embarking on a national implementation strategy involving local and secondary co-operat ives , they met with representatives of the Manitoba region and received enthusiastic response from them in helping them promote the pa rticular resource ma terial . So Mr .

Chairman , we are in co-operation with them promoting this particular book in the province of Manitoba . If the members care to look - I think this last issue over here in February - Educat ion Manitoba , again there is a lit tle reminder in there that the curriculum materials are avail­ able , and the promotion of these materia ls is taking pla ce , and I might say pretty aggressively .

We have als o got the Co-Operative Promotion Board , which has also been involved in it , an d it 's interesting to see that history , I guess sort of repeats itself from one province to anoth er ; and if the members will remember reading artic les towards the end of last month , the Saskatchewan school trustees - 2099 -

Tuesday , 8 April 19 80 are going through and asking the same questions that we asked when in opposition about this particular program. Should one de partment of government be after another de partment of government to put a certain curr iculum program which they have developed onto the curriculum list? We said , we feel it 's better that an outside agency does it , like the Co-op College of Canada , and I think I made a good arrangement with them .

I just point out to the members , Saskatchewan is now going through with their trustees and with their Department of Co-op Development and Department of Educat ion , through very much the same things that we debated here last year. And we think that there is a good job be ing done with regard to the develop ment, the final completion of those books , and that we will be co­ -operating with the Co-op College of Canada to see that these books are , No . 1, made available to the educators in the province of Manitoba ; and No . 2, tha t they are promoted .

Now , deal ing with the other quest ion of reserves, the reserve funds in pl ce right now with regard to the Manitoba Credit Union is of such that it is not of a large magnitude that would have any major ef fect on the ht erest rates in the province of Ma nitoba , or within their system. As the member will appreciat e, a number of years ago we had a few co-operatives like the Dauphin Credit Union , which sustained some ma jor losses.

This year we have a few like the Portage which has announced a fairly substantial loss, and the reserves are there to protect the members ' depos its and of course , I think the member will agree with me , that is the prime function and responsibil ity of government to make sure that the reserves are established so that the members ' deposits are insured , and to that end we are involved . But I don 't see , and I have dis cussed this with the central body , tha t there is a large amount that is available for that type of thing. MR. USKIW: Mr .

Chairm an, I am truly amused by the Mini ster 's response on the question of whose job it should be to provide for proper curriculum for the school system in Manitoba . I' m amused because the Minister is trying to convince this committee , and indeed the people of Manitoba , that somehow it made sense to sell half a milli on do llars worth of research and devel opment for some $28 , 000 to the province of Saskatchew an . -- (Interject ion )-- Well , to the Co-op College in the province of Saskatchew an , and then to bargain with the Co-op College for the use of it back when it was ours in the first place . MR .

BANM AN: No , no , we get it free . It 's in the agreeme nt . MR . USKIW : Mr . Chairman , the fact is that this information was developed by the province of Ma nitoba , paid for by the taxpayers of Manitoba . It wasn 't necessary to ship it to Saskatchewan and then ask for pieces of it back as it was required by our school system. We had it in the first place . Wherein lies the logic , Mr .

Chairman , of spending half a million dollars on a school program, an educational program , shipping it over to another jurisdict ion and then us ing bits and pieces of it , based on some spontaneous happenstance request , if you like , on the part of our school system. That 's what the Minister is saying. Mr . Chairman , if that program was to be carr ied out the way that it should be , then there shoulu have been an introduction to the school system of the package by personnel of the departm ent , along with personnel of the Department of Educati on. That makes an awful lot of sense , Mr . Chairman.

I don 't think the Co-op College is going to be doing that . And if they are , it 's going to have to charge this government for that service . So what we have done is dismantle a system that we are now buying back , so to speak , -- (Interjection )-- yes , piece meal , as the Memb er for St . George suggests . It 's no longer a program or a project it's sort of whatever a particular school district might request , whatever portion , or the whole of it , or whatever . But the dep artment is sort of hands off.

It 's not interested whatever in fa cilitating beyond responding to demands that generate somewhere out there , Mr . Chairman . Now on the other point , I would like to know from the Minister just what is the present regulation with respect to reserves? I would like to repeat that . Gan the Minister advise the committee just what the present regulation is on the question of reserves? What are the requirements pursuant to the regulations? MR . CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:3 0 having arr ived , I am leaving the Chair for Private Members ' Hour and will return at 8:0 0 p.m . - 2100 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR . CHAIRMAN , Abe Kovnats (Radisson ): This Committee will come to order . I would ask the honourable members to di rect their atte ntion to Page 79 of the Department of Natural Resources , Resolution 106 , Item 7. Forestry, (

a) Administration ,

(1) Sa lar ies. The Honoura ble Minister. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Chairman , I think that probably the point that should be made here initially in reviewing the Forestry Branch Estimat es , I think the topic that would be of most concern or most interest to the public , particularly those people involved in the forestry industry , would be our intentions with respect to the quota system.

The quota system was introduced in 1965 for a 15-year period , that system was to have expired on June lst of this year and over the course of the past year or two we have been reviewing the question in the Department and have been having discussions with th ose involved in the industry , as well as with some of those who ar e perhaps not in the industry but might wish to be in the in­ dustr y .

As a result of the reviews and the discussions we have had , it is our intention to introduce a new quota system which will be come ef fective in June , and the system will be to quite an extent a continuation of tha t that is in pla ce , to the extent that the quotas indiv idual operators now hold will essentially be con ­ tinued . The period of the quotas , the lease holding will be for a period of ten yea rs, but will be reviewed at the end of every five-year period and would be ex­ tended for a further five years if circumstances indicate that should be the case .

In other words this is an evergreen type of lease , which means that the individu als , providing the timber continues to be available and individuals con­ tinue to perform as they agree in the terms of their lease , they will al way have a lease that ranges between five and ten years in durat ion , which should allow the operators to have a satisfac tory planning horizon. In additi on, we are providing additional opportunities for those not now in the industry to be able to get in.

As I understand the quota system which has been in place for the pa st fifteen years is that ba sically only those people who held quotas were able to bid on additi onal volumes of timber as they beca me availa ble . Under the new system which will be brought in there will be provision for others to compete to acquire addi tional quotas and to acquire some volumes that are not on quotas but might in a salvage type of operat ion . In those cases , of course , where individuals ar able to acquire timber on that basis there is no continuing commitment in cases of salvage .

I think that this pol icy extension and these pol icy al terati ons, Mr . Chairman , will be received by the industry with some general degree of accep tance , because I think that it will provide them with that necessary tenure and capability for long-term planning that is so essential for people wishing to make an investment in the develop ment of our resources.

As we conduct our five-year reviews, of course , it may become evident in some cases that individu als have not utilized the quota that ha s been allocated to them and in that case their quota for the next period would be based then on the average of that which was util ized during the previous five years . In that way ind ividua s will not be able to hold a quota for a long period of time and not utilize it , but neither will they be penalized on the ba sis of one year , say , when for some reason beyond their control they are unable to harvest the amount of timber that they might have expected to harvest .

Within the other portions of the Forestry Branch , Mr . Chai rman , I think that the forest inventory operation is essenti ally one of continuing on with longstand­ ing programs . Sim larly with our Forestry Development and Economics group , it's a rather small group there with only two staff man years involved . Under the item of Forest Management I have just given what I would regard to be the highl ight under tha t area . Perhaps later as we ge t into the question of Forest Protection there may be some specific items there that the honourable members may wish to raise .

The Forestry Initiatives Program is an area where the department ha s been undertaking some new thrusts in terms of forestry reforestation , of enhanced forest protection and als o of providing new expanded access to timber resources and that is an area al so where the honourable members may have some addit ional comment . So , just with those general introductory remarks , Mr . Chairman, I could - 2101 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 advise the honourable members that under Item (

a) Administrat ion , there are four sta ff man years in that item as there was last year. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honoura ble Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOST ROM : Thank you , Mr . Chairman. I would like to , by way of pro­ cedure , di rect most of the quest ions I have on the general forestry issues under this item of the Administration and only where there are items that are specific to each

section would I wa it until we get to the

section to ask detailed questions . So in a general way, Mr . Chairman, with respect to the main ·t ern of the Minister 's opening statements , that of a new forestry policy regarding quota holders , I respect the Minister 's intent ion to protect the interests of the exist­ ing quota hold ers ; it is a program that we were looking at when we were in govern­ ment , negotiat ing with the exist ing quota holders to look at the possible changes and/ or amendm ents to the system , to implement an extension and/or a new system beginning with the 1980 period , when I bel ieve the old quotas were to expire .

Most of the quota holders that I talked to seemed to be fairly well satisfied with the system . They were recommending certain minor changes to it but no ma jor changes to the system , which I understand the government is not proceeding to do.

I would ask the Minister if, in the al location of areas to quota holders , if he 's taking into consideration individual s, companies and /or community operations that desire to get into the forest harvesting busine ss, that he is taking their needs into consideration in the examinat ion of the existing system and the implementation of an amended or new system of al location of quotas. And I say this, Mr .

Chairman , because I have heard complaints from individuals in the forestry areas of Manito ba , particularly in southeastern Manitoba , eastern Manitoba and western Manitoba , where there are large concentrations of forestry operations . I' ve heard complaints from ind ividua s that would like to be able to get into the business but are foreclosed from getting into the business because all of the existing areas have al ready been al located and/or even those that have not been allocated , first preference goes to quota holders , people who already have quotas.

I would like to know from the Mini ster if he 's taking these peopl es' interests into considerat ion. And I also would refer him to communities that may be on the fringe areas of the exist ing quota operations that are looking at expanding into forestry operations as a means of improving economic opportunities for the people that live in those communities ; in other words, to set up a small sawmill or to estab lish a small pulpwood operat ion .

In order to do that they must have access to the timber resources and I note that in some cas es, quota holders that have their home base in Altona or Steinbach end up cuttin g timber up in the Bissett area of Manitoba , while people who live in the area do not have ready access to the resources in that area in order to increase their opportunity for employment .

And I would think that one should look at that in terms of making forest resources available to the owner 's of forestry equipment , those who have quotas now , making resources available to them in the ar eas that are most convenient to them , but at the same time taking into consideration the needs and aspirations of people who live in areas where there is hi gh degrees of unemploym ent . I know that it 's not an easy question to deal with because there are finit resources and many of the resources have alr eady been allo cated .

And I think the Minister , in signing the agreement with the Abiti bi Paper Company , wh ich he signed , put into jeopardy many small independent operators be­ cause he ef fectively assigned the complete control and virtual ownership of a vast area of forest resources in Manitoba to one company , one company . And I do n't think he was looking at or taking into consideration the interests of the small producer - and I' m talking about someone who has a quota to produce lumber or pulpwood on the basis of making that a part- time livel ihood .

In the case of many people I know who are in the business , there are mar ginal farme rs for exam ple , who farm areas of Manitoba that are not lucrative , where they do not make a good in­ come from farming , but they own one or two small quotas which they 'v e either acquired through family bus iness, through tradit ional harvesting , or they have purchased from some of those people who have been traditionally involved in the forest industry . And Mr . Chairm an, they have been operating in areas al ongside - 2102 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 Abitibi operations and in some cas es selli ng their pulpwood to Abiti bi oper ations; at the same time producin g lumber for sale to supplement their income to make an overall decent income for themselves and their family , by working on the farm in the summer season and working in the bush in the winter. And I think that these people 's interest should be protected and this Minister and this government seems to overlook the small guy , the small producer , the small businessman .

They seem to have their idealogical bent such that they look more fav ourably on a large company , the larger the better , the bigger the better and I don 't know what their reasons are for that particular idealogical bl indness that they seem to have , but I think it 's unfortuna te because the small independent businessman operating in the forest industry is usually a very ef ficient pro­ du cer .

In fa ct , in the operations that I'm fami liar with , the independent oper­ ator produces pulpwood for a lesser price than Abitibi Paper Company can produce it in their own camps and it 's not just a little bit less , it 's a lot less , Mr . Chairman. For exam ple , it 's been reported that Abitibi Paper Company , in their own camps , produce wood that costs them $60 or $70 a cord landed at the mill in Pine Fal ls , where they purchase pulpwood from an independent operator for $10 , $20 , and even more dollars less than that , landed at the mill .

So one can easily see the econ­ omics of the small independent operat or. They tend to operate with smaller over­ head and the nature of their operation is such that they must be ef ficient , Mr . Chairman . These are the people who . I think, the governme t should be concerned with , not only looking to enhance the big corporation and make them richer at the expense of the small guy and that 's exactly what this government seems to be do­ ing. They seem to want to make the rich richer , putting a sm all person at the mercy of the large operator. So , Mr .

Chairman , with those opening remarks I would like to ask the Minister what protections he is building into his new policy for the small independent quota holder and , in addit ion to that , the person who seeks to get into the forestry business that is not now actively involved in the business because they do not have a quota or timber sale agreement with the government and als o , thirdly , the people or groups in communities that want to get into operations harvesting lumber for either their own use or for export in order to increase the employment opportunities from harvesting the forest resource. MR.

RANSOM: Mr . Chairman , I' m pleased that the honourable member has drawn attention to the fact that there should be some concern expressed for the small operators and some provision made for them because I bel ieve that careful exam­ ination of the policy which I have just roughly outlined will show that we in fact are going to be providing greater opportunities for the small operato rs, greater protection for the small operat ors , than was the case while the honourable member was part of the previous government' s administra tion .

Under the pol icy that existed at that time there were not the same opportunities that we are going to create now for small independent ind ividual people or operations to get into the industry if they are able to compete. The honourable member ref ers to their abilit y to produce at low cost and I agree there is no individua l, no group , no agency , that 's able to produce as well as indi vidual people can , working fo r their own interest .

It doesn 't surprise me that those individual operators might well be able to produce cheaper than a big corporation or cheaper than a big government would be able to do if they were in charge . So I' m pleased to say that we are able to provide opportunities for those people in the industry as the timber is available and I must stress that in some cases the timber is not availa ble . I almost get the impression from the comments of the honourable member that he believes that it 's possible to allocate the same tree to more than one use , or that we should withdraw one al location and give it to another .

When we speak of the Ab itibi company and their operation at Pine Fa lls, of course we are all aware that company has been operating there since 1925. They have certa in requirements for timber if the operation is going to con­ tinue . Mr . Chairman , I would not want to be the Minister who took away their timber allocation from them and was responsible then for them having to phase down their operati on , or close down their operation if it went far enough, and put Ma nitobans out of work . I don 't think tha t would be a productive way to go . - 2103 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 Under the new agreement that we signed al most a year ago with the Abitibi com­ pany , we made some advances there in providing ad diti ona l opportunities for other individuals and corporations to uti lize timber that is not required by the Abitibi company . We will be more aware of what their requirements are because they must file annual operat ing plans ; they must file five-year plans ; they must file 20-year manageme nt plans .

So we are in a position to know what their requirements are ; we are in a position to know what the surpluses ar e , and they are required und er the agreement to make those surpluses available to other potential users , and if they do not make them available then the government is in a position to step in and see that they are made availa ble . Insofar as providing op port uni ties for local communities, of course , we have the provision within The Forest Ac t to simply allocate timber to those communities without competition .

So that if we bel ieve that it 's in the interests of the community that they should be given a timber al location and not have to compete with outside users , then so be it . We are able to do that and we will do that . In other cases , it may we ll be that the potential bidders are all establ ished viable operations and they 'r e quite capable of compet ing and of bidding on opportunit ies. Just as a general operating principle , we attempt to retain resources in the area of communities with the expectation that at some time they will be required and might be used by the community .

Of course forests are like many other re­ sources ; there comes a time when if they are not utilized they are going to be wasted and so it is necessary then to have them util ized and I bel ieve it would be better to have outsiders utilize them than to have them go to waste. The honourable member raises a question ab out outside operators : People from the south might come in and harvest resources in the north .

While I acknowlege the necessity to at tempt to use the resources as a means of providing develop ment , I do n't think that we can lose sight or should lose sight of the fact that these resources be long to all Manitobans and I think it would be a dangerous precedent to assume that only those people who live in an area have a right to the re­ sources, because that could be extended to a great many things , to creat ional re­ sources as well, for instance.

Or I suppose we could extend it to taxation and say that only those areas and only those groups of people that pay the taxes should receive the benefits from them . I do n't think that anybody would advoca te that position , Mr . Chairman. But it is , I beli eve an analogous one to the owner­ ship of the resources and who should have opportunities to use them .

I believ e , not only in the Abitibi agreement where we specifically set out the statement tha t communities must have first priority on those al locations or those amounts of timber that are available beyond those required to keep the Abitibi plan in operation - that 's in the agreement - communities must be given first priority . In addit ion to that , our pol icy, which was just out lined in my opening remarks , also provides opportunities for new people to get in , if they are able , if they are will ing, if they feel they can compete with those that are establis hed , then fine .

They have the opportunity to do it. With communities we have the power to all ocate resources dir ectly without competition. MR . BOST ROM: Well, Mr . Chairman , it 's, I believe , indicative that the Minister speaks of opportunities for small operators and immed iately becomes nervous when he talks of the Ab itibi timber rights, because , Mr . Chairman , his concern for the small operator certa inly looks hypocritical when one considers the kind of agreement the Progressive Conservative Government and this Minister signed with the Abitibi Paper Company . Mr .

Chai rman , through that agreement which they signed with Abit ibi in 1979 , I bel ieve it is ef fective in 1979 or 1980 , they granted that company an area of timber berth , which is more than twice the area they require for servicing their plant at Pine Falls , more than twice the timber resources they need for their plant at Pine Fa lls. When the New Democratic Party was in government , Mr . Chairman , we signed an agreement with the Abitibi Paper Company which gave them a guarantee that they would have suffic ient resources at all times to opera te to the maximum their plant at Pine Fa lls.

That di d not mean, however, that we were prepared to give to them contro l over vast areas of Manitoba that they did not require for their operat ion, we made that very very cl ear to them. Because , Mr . Cha irman , unli ke this govern- - 2104 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 ment we were not hypocritical when it came to small operators and commun ity oper­ ations , we wanted to use the instrumentality of government to protect those that needed protection . The Abitibi Paper Company , we recog nized , did not need the protection of government. The Ab itibi Paper Company is a very powerful inter­ national corporation that does not need the protection of the Manitoba Government to help them in accessing resources .

All they need and require is what we gave them, which was a guarantee that they would have sufficient forest resources f om the province of Manitoba to operate their mill. This government chose to throw out that agreement and to give them access to two times-plus an area of forest resources than they need for the purposes of operating their mill . And the Minister can look to doc umented evidence in the Department of Resources that I know is available that would i