Manitoba Hansard — 1 June 1994 (Sitting 38A, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-38a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sessi on • Tbirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published uruler the tlllthority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLill No. 38A • 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 1, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERU.LI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMIN GS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER,Gacy DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRlPDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Geny, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENN S, Hany, Hon. ERNST, Tun, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonanl S. FILMON, Gacy, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRJESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtlcal Afft Uatlon CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Rossell Sel.kiik Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minn edosa Crescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gacy LAMOUREUX, Kevin LAnn.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Tun MANNES S, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nonna Mc<:FLAJB,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, Jolm PRAZNIK. Danen, Hon. REID,Dacyl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON. Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemacy, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris Bwrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonn et Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Plllk FlinFlon La Verendcye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

2781 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA VVednesday,Junel,1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�NE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mrs. Loui se Dacquay (C hairperson of Committees) : Mr. Speaker , the Co mmittee of Supply bas adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be rece ived. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as its Second Report. Your committee met on Tuesday, May 31, 1994, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consi der the Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March31, 19 93. Mr.

Derek Smith, president and chief executive officer, pro vided su ch informati on as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and business of the Man itoba Li quor Control Commission. Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 1993, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Spe aker, I move , seconded by the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation) : Mr.

Speak er, I wo uld like to table the Supplementary Estimates for 1994-95 for Manitoba Highways and Transportation. Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker , I would like to table the Annual Report 1992-93 for The Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corpora tion. Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , I am please d to table the Quarterl y Report for the six months ending April 30, 1994, for Manitoba Public Insurance Corpor ation. • •• •

(1335) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have just been inf onned that Hansard indeed is not operational at this time, and I have no idea how long it is going to take Tim to get this whole system up and running. I think what I am going to do at this point in time, I am going to recess the House till 2 p.m., at which time, if the system is not up and running, I will communicate with the three Leaders of the three parties and we will have to have a further extension or something, but there is just no way that we can proceed without Hansard.

2782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Prior to going any further than Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports , which we have just done, because we have guests in the gallery here this afte rnoon and becau se mine is the only mike that is ope rational at this time, I would like to recognize this afte rnoon from the Ro senort School thirty Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Grant Plett. This school is located in the constituency of the hon ourable Minister of Education (Mr. Manne ss). From the Red River Valley Jr.

Academy we have seventeen Gr ade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Gilles Landry. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). From the Shady Oak Christian Academy we have twenty-five Grades 7 to 9 students under the dire ction of Mr. Harry Friesen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ••• Mr. Speaker: The House is now recessed until two o'clock this afternoon. The House recessed at 1:35pm.

After Reces s The House resumed at 2 p.m. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank all honourable members for their indulgence. Everything is supposed to be up and running now . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BUill- The Provincial Auditor's Amendment Act Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Minister of Cu ltu re, Heritage and Ci tize nship (Mr. Gillesham mer), that leave be given to introduce Bill12, The Provincial Auditor 's Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le verifi cateur pro vincial, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Billlll-An Act to amend

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smokers Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentw ood): Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Ms. McConnick), that leave be given to introduce Bill 211,

An Act to amend

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smo kers; Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur Ia protection de Ia sante des non-fumeurs , and that the same now be received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, this act amends the Act to Protect the Health of No n-Smo kers and potentially younger smokers as well. The pmpose of this act is to strengthen legislation so that we can assist in the enfor ceability of the legislation in the province of Manitob a. We have had many discussions during the Estimates process in talking about str onger recommendations for amendments to

An Act to Protect the Health of Non-Smokers. I know the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) is supporti ve of these type of recommendations, and I wou ld hope that we wo uld have support of all members of the Legisl ature . This amendment has been recommended by the Canadian Cancer Society . It is a nonparti san piece of legislati on, and it is here to protect the health of younger Manitob ans. I hope all members of the House will support it, because we want to ensure that, in fa ct, potenti ally young Manitoban s have more difficulty in buying cigare ttes. I re commend this piece of legislation to all members.

Motion agreed to. Bill212- The Smoking in the Workplace Act Ms. Norma McCo rmick (Os born e): Mr . Speak er, I move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that leave be given to introduce Bill212, The Smoking in the Workplace Act (Loi sur !'usage du tabac dans le lieu de

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2783 travail), and that the same now be received and read for the first time. Motion present ed. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to restrict smoking by est ablishing minimum standards which limit exposure to tobacco smoke in the workplace. This legislation would apply to all workplaces under provincial jurisdiction. This would include retail, commercial, manufacturing and mining opera tions, hospit als , social services agencies and edu cational instituti ons. This legislation would prohibit smoking in enclosed workplaces.

The result of this legislation will be improved health for all Manitobans. I recommend this piece of legislation for the support of all members of the Legislature. Motion agreed to. •

(1405) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Victims' Assistance Programs Funding Reduction Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Film on). In 1986, Victim s' Assistance legislation was passed in this Chamber that provided some symbolism and some support to victims of crime. It was a surcharge that was redirected through the Department of Justice or the Attomey General 's department to many· community groups to help deal with victims of crime and have new and innovative programs to deal with victims of crime.

I aske d the minister on April 22 a question about, why is there a reduction of some 12 percent. I believe the minister said, and I have the quote : We continue our commitment to this program and we will do more and more in our role of victims' assist ance.

Today, we hear publicly what we have heard privately from many groups on the front line, that 1) they feel the program has been reduced as we have all eged in this House; and 2) they fee l that they have not been properly notified and there has been no co- operation between the govemment and groups working on the front lines with victims through the Victims ' Assistance program. I would like to ask the Premier: Did they evaluate the imp act of their cuts before the budget was tabled and their reductions in the Victims ' Assistance program prior to the introduction last year? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Sp ea ker, this govemment continues its support to victims across this province. As the member knows , the process is that groups would submit their proposals to a committee which evalu ated the proposals . That is the first step to make sure if those proposals actually meet the criterion. This year the funding to community groups who deal with victims is in the range of $517, 000. That is the same range of funding to groups as has been in place, certainly last year and I believe before that. So we continue to maintain our amount of fu nding.

We will continue to grant to new organizations. We also continue, Mr. Speaker, the grants to programs which are ongoing. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speake r, when you reduce the grant level to commun ity groups by over 10 percent, it is not continuing the support. It is a 10 percentcuL The minister mentioned the cut from this year to last year. The 1991-9 2 Annual Report of the Victims' Assistance Committee speaks about $871,000 being redirected from fines from people that were convicted of crimes to victims under this program. It is now down to just above $500,000, as the minister said.

How can this govemment sa y it is committed to community-based programs for victims ' assistance if we have gone from $871,000, no co-operation with people at the community level, down to just over $500,0007 Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, bef ore the member gets all worlced up, let me also add that the amount of money being spent to assist victims in this province is $1.8 milli on. There is over $500,000 being spent with community groups . There is also

2784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 money which deals directly with victims who deal with the court system. Perhaps the member does not think that those victims are also important. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am worlted up about this government's cutbacks to victims. Maybe you do not care about the Victims' Assistance program, but we started it and we are committed to it, and we are not going to let Tories take away support for the communities. The money for community-based Victims' Assistance programs has been redirected into the department's program.

It has gone down from over $800,000 to just over $500,000 as the minister indicated. The whole program has been reduced from $1.9 million to $1. 8 million. Again, another redu ction. No matter which way the minister tries to answer the question, the answ er is the same, Mr. Speaker, in teiDls of the facts. The programs have been reduced. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), why is he redu cing support for community-based Victims' Assistance programs and redirec ting that into department programs? Where is the priority for Victims' Assistance programs at the community level? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, I have several points to ma ke. First of all , we continue in our commitment to deal with community groups. I have met with those community groups, and we are directing funds, over $500, 000 worth of funds, to those community groups. We also direct funds into programs which deal directly with victims who are dealing with the court proce ss, and those victims, we deal with over 24,000 a year. Those individuals previously were dealt with within, for instance, the advocacy program in Family Services.

They are now being dealt with within the Department of Justice to allow an integration, a co-operation, a sharing of infoiDlation. I refer to the Leader of the Opposition's speech on July 26, 1988, when he said that we are not provid ing-his gover nment, the previous governmen t-we are not providing services across this province that are needed. Because we have enhanced the funding, because we are concerned about victims, we ha ve expanded the positions in teiDls of the victims' assistance to three.

Earlier this week, one of the members opposite said that we did not care about victims in the North and people of the North. We ha ve expa nded the pos itions to Brandon, Thompson and The Pas. Mr. Speaker, one more point. They do not care about the victims. They are on the side of the offenders. Where do they stand- Mr. Speaker: Onter, please. •

(1410) Manitoba Telephone System Layoffs Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, there will be a lot of Manitoba ns who will not be convinced by the Minister of Justice's rhetoric about concern for victims, just like there are a lot of Manitobans who are not convinced that this government has any concern for the many people who are unemployed in the province . Just this week, Unisys announced the layoff of some 25 people. Bristol workers may face 250 people being laid off ; AECL, an uncertain number of people are facing layoff.

Today, Manitoba Telephone System announced that some 130 people are going to be laid off. My question to the Minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Tourism, or the Minister responsible for MTS, is to explain to Manitobans how laying off 130 people at a time when the quarter report suggests that MTS is going to make $3 or $4 million, makes any se nse- An Honourable Member: In this quarter. Mr. Storie: -in this quarter, makes any sense whatsoever. Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act) : Mr.

Spea ker, last yea r the Manitoba Telephone System saved 3.8 percent on the salary side of their budget by the 10 days off. This year, they had budget ed for the same. In the pr ocess of achieving their budget, they have asked the unions to accept that on a voluntary basis. Negotiations have gone on, and one union out of the three has accepted that as a way for MTS to save money and

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2785 at the same time save the jobs at the Manitoba Telephone System. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, this government knows that there is a total other agenda out there. MTS, in its PUB submission, some time bef ore the introduction of Bill 22, indicated it was going to start laying off people, and it is today, at a time when it is making money. My question to the Minister ofMTS is: How can be justify laying off 130 people , some who have been with MTS for 20 yeaiS, at a time when the unemployment levels in this province are at historically high levels?

How does it make any sense whatsoever? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, this question bas been asked in diff erent ways, and the answer will be the sa me as it always bas been. In the telecom munications are a, technology bas advanced so less people are nee ded to do the job. In Ontario, as an example , 5,200 people face the reality of losing a job. Instead of losing the job, they took a 10 percent reduction in salary.

That is the principle that is being used in the telecommuni cations industry, and it is the right principle for Manitoba Telephone System to position themselves in terms of cost, to keep the rates down to the people who are using telephones in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, if this is simply a matter of negotiations-this government only a few weeks ago appointed an arbitrator to settle a dispute at Manitoba Sugar Company , appointed a mediator, pulled out all the stops to make sure that we did not lose jobs.

My question to the Minister responsible for MTS is: Will be now ensure that some one is appointed to resolve this impasse in negotia tions, not sit idly by while 130 people, some of them with 20 years ser vice, lose their jobs? Ron. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, there is one very important point that I believe all honourable members opposite have to appreciate in labour negotiations. That is, people have to take responsibility for their actions. The members of the unions that have not accepted this-they are dem ocratic unions.

The people who run those unions answer to them, and they have that responsibility to go to their leaders within that union and demand that they have the opportunity to accept that offer. Point of Order Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, we do not need a sanctimonious lecture from the Minister of Labour. He attempted to solve the dispute in the Manitoba Sugar case . All we are asking is that they attempt- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. •

(1415) Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts Closure Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Heal th. Last night there was a meeting at the Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts out in St James, Mr. Speaker, at which approximately 40 to 50 seniors who are residents of that personal care home and their loved ones were in atte ndance , and that was the product of a decision made three years ago.

I want to table corresponde nce dated May 24 of this year that went to the residents and families and indicates that three years ago the Health Services Commission indicated to the Metrop olita n Kiwanis Courts that, in fact, they bad to upgrade or close that facility. Over that period of time, there were negotiations, and ultimately the decision was to close that facility. Last night, residents were told for the first time that it may be taken down this fall.

My question for the Minister of Health: What role is be going to take in ensuring that those residents are properly placed and have time to become properly placed in adequate housing, Mr. Speaker, given that the waiting list for some of these personal care homes is two and three years? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for raising the question about Kiwanis Courts. The board indeed did make its intentions known last evening, but there were a few areas where I think

2786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 some clarifi cation would be helpful for those resi dents. Neither the board nor the Department of Health has any intention of having people leave the facility until and unless perf ectly appropriate arran gem ents are made for those res idents. So the ref erence to this fall, I do not know where that comes from , but certainly- [inteJjecti on] Yes, I know that I know it was said at the meeting last night, but it doe s not come from me. There is no such time line that we are driving from the Department of He alth.

This facility will not be closed until every single residen t's care nee ds are adequately taken care of . Mr. Edwards: That assu rance is timely and, I am sure , will be appre ciated, Mr. Speaker, by the res idents and their families. By way of supplem entary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister on this sa me issue : As this corresp ondence indicates, there have been three years of negotiations. Was the Department of He alth involved in those negotiations, and why has it gone three years bef ore the res idents and their fam ilies have been brought into this process to understand what the reper cussions might be? Mr.

McCrae: Mr. Spe aker, I can only ask the honourable member perh aps to dire ct that question to the board of Kiwani s Cou rts with respect to the time it has taken. Certainly, the honourable member for Stu rgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) has been extre mely active and- Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : He did not say anything last night. Mr. McCrae: Wel l, the honourable member for Inkster makes some comment.

What the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek has been doing has been to put the needs and concerns of the residents of Kiwanis Cou rts first and fo remost and making sure that he has spared no ef fo rt to make sure I understood the point of view of the residents and the citize ns of the communi ty with respect to this matter. Mr. Speaker, we are very mindful that over the years, frien dships develop in a personal care home setting. As our department assists in fi nding placements fo r the resid ents, we will be very mindful of that fact, as well, that this has been home for these people for a number of years .

But the ye ars have taken their toll on the building itself, and that is something I think everybod y rec ognizes . As the honour able member for Cre scentwood (Ms. Gray) knows, we are looking at issues rel ating to saf ety and care being provided in our personal care homes, and one of the important fe atures of all of that is the actual phys ical plant itself. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Spe aker, finally for the minister : Last night at the meeting there were Department of Health officials there who, I am sure, althoug h well intentioned, were simply unable to give adequate answ ers to calm people who were there.

For the minister : Given that the Me tropolitan Kiwa nis Cour ts board is going to be issuing Friday-whi ch coincidentally is Seniors Day their plans fo r relocation in dealing with the closing of this facility , can the minister give as suran ce that he will be involved, his department will be involved, given what he said today, in developing those plans to make sure that they are plans which calm people' s anxi eties and ensure, as he has said today, that everyone is going to be placed as much as possible with the least amount of disru ption to these seni ors, some of whom have been in this home years and years and years ?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speake r, if my own assurance is not good enough, let me tell you the honour able member for Stur geo n Creek (Mr. McAlpine ) is not going to rest until he is given every ass uran c e that the people involved are trea ted sensitively and their future care needs are adequately taken care of . I am very interested in that, too, and we will make every effort to ensu re that the transition for these residents is as smoo th as it can be made. •

(1420) Metropolitan Kiwan is Courts Closure Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speak er, on the same issue: When the Manitoba Hea lth

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2787 Services Commission made a decision three years ago, they consulted with everybody else except the residents who are directly affected by the decision. This is like a medical doctor deciding unilaterally to make a li fe-or -death oper ation, consulting with everybody else but the patient himself. Can I ask the honourable Minister of Housing (Mrs . Mcintosh) or the honour able Minister resp onsible for Seniors (Mr. Ducharme) what reasons there are why the res idents were not notifi ed? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Healt h): Mr.

Speaker, surely, the honourable member is not being critical in the sense that people should be kept in fa cilities that time has rendered of a quality that is becoming a problem . Surely, the honourable member for Broadway is not suggesting that. The relationship in personal care situations is a relati onship betwee n the community, the board and the staff of these organi zations. I think the question, as I said previously to the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards), is one that is a communit y question that ought to be answered in the community.

While I am a big supporter of consultation, I am not in the business of going around scaring people which honourable members opposite engage in daily. In fact , I have made it my business to ensure that the residents and their families are very well aware of the extent to which the Seni ors Directorate, the Dep artment of Hea lth, the Housing department, are all willing to make themselves available to make the transi tion as smooth as we can make it. Mr.

San to s : Can the honourable minister tell this House and the people of Manitoba what alternative plans his department has in order to find suitable accommodations for the seniors, particularly the 89- and 90-year-old residents of that Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware-- although he doe s not attend these functions-but since 1988, 350 new personal care home spaces have been created in the city of Winnipeg.

The honourable member may be interested in knowing that tomorrow we will be anno uncing the opening of another 100 personal care spaces in the city of Wmnipeg. We are ve ry pleased to be able to respond to the need that clearly is there and is going to be there. As I said earlier, not one resident will be asked to leave the personal care home without having a plan. As I said, those plans will take into aceount relationships that have developed over the years as well. Mr. Santos: Mr.

Speaker, given that there is a two-year waiting list for senior citizens to get into personal care home s, can the honourable minister make a personal guarantee, an assuran ce today that the seniors will not be left alone, ej ected into the street in the concrete jungle , that they will be found suitabrea� omm odations7 Mr. McCrae: Before the honourable member asks questions like that he should do some research, and he would know that the waiting list is much shorter today than it was when he and his coll eagues were in govemment in this prov ince.

This kind of service has done nothing but improve in the last few years in Man itoba. I just finished telli ng the honourab le member about the creation of all these new personal care home space s, and I also jus t fi ni shed telling the honourable member that not one resident will be asked to leave until a suita ble placement is available . I do not really know what more I can say that would respond to the question, except that that is what does respond to the question. •

(1425) Breast Implant Lawsuit Information Release Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellingt on): Mr. Speaker, June 17, which is just over two weeks away, is the deadline for women in Manitoba who have had silicone breast implants to decide if they want to accept the global settlement package being offered in the United States, a settlement which does not provide fair compensation for the pain, suff ering, and po tenti al and actual health hazards experienced by these women. Manitoba women

2788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 have received virtually no inform ation on the implications of this vital decisi on. Will the governm ent offici ally notify the 6,000 Manitoba women who have received implants about the legal and financial options available to them so they have a chan ce to make an inf onned decision before June 17? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, that is ex actly what we are attempting to do, but we feel somewhat restric ted by that June 17 date that was laid down by the judge in Alabama.

I made available to the honour able member a copy of a letter I have sent to the fe deral Minister of Hea lth , the Honoura ble Diane Marleau, asking the fe deral Government of Canada- which is the appropriate jurisdic tion in a situati on like this-t o interv ene, and as requested I believe by the jud ge in Alabama, to make our views kno wn. So on behalf of Canadian women, we are asking the fed eral Minister Diane Marleau to ex tend that date. In the meantime, yes, we are making efforts to inform all Manitoba women about this.

In fa ct, I was pleased to see a telephone number actually published in the newsp aper already so that women can acces s some inform ation. 1be problem is, is that enough time for women to make inf ormed decisions about this? I am not sure that it is, and that is why we have asked the fe deral minister to attempt to get that date extended Ms. Barrett : Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the work the minister has already done .

I would like to again ask the Minister of He alth if he will assure the House today that not only through the number in the newspaper that has been published, but will he direct his department and other departments of the government to, offici ally, individually notify those 6,000 women so that they have an opportunity to make that decision before June 17, because we do not know and we have no assurance that that date will be extended. Most likely, the women of Mani toba will have to make that vital decision before June 17. Most of them do not even kno w they have the decision to make. Mr.

McCrae: I know it is true not everybody reads the paper , Mr. Speaker. Sometimes that is a good thing. Mr. Spe aker, I hear what the honourable member is saying. The Women 's He alth Bran ch of my department is very well aware of the concern she raises, and we are alre ady doing that. Meeting Request Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellingt on): Mr.

Speaker, on May 12, over two weeks ago, the I Kn ow Ne twork which deals with this issue, wrote the Premier and the Ministe rs of Hea lth and Justi ce asking for a meeting to discuss the short- and long-term issues arising out of this situation and fa cing those who have had these implan ts. Why has there been no response on behalf of the Premier (Mr. Filmon), the Minister of He alth or the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodrey) to these women when the governmen t kno ws the urgency and the depth and the importance of these soc ial, political, health and economic decisions that women have to make and the implications that this implant problem has for governm e nt, as well as for individual women? Why have they not met? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Spe aker , my daily meeting with my secretary about my calendar got put off till this afte rnoo n. I have no doubt that we will be looking at that request later this afternoon when I work on my calendar with my secretary . Louisiana -Pacific Co. Emission Control s Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker , when it was first announced that Louisiana-Pacific was proposing to build an OSB plant in Swan Ri ver, the Minister of En vironm ent (Mr. Cummin gs) gave the people of the are a the assuran ce that the company would be requ ired to build a state- of -the-art plant with the most modem emi ssion con trols. The company sa id that they would abide by these regulations as well. However, in their proposal, Louisiana-Pacific is sugg esti ng that they will use E- Tube emission controls instead of the

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2789 RTO, reg enerative thermal oxidation emission controls as recommen ded by the American Enviromnental Protection Agency. I want to ask the Acting Minister of Environment why be is not recom mending that Louisiana-Pacific install the most up-to-date and most efficient emission controls in the plant that is being proposed for Swan River to protect the people of the area who want jobs but also want clean air. •

(1430) Bon. Clayton Manness (Acting Minister of Environment) : Mr. Speaker, Louisiana-Pacific is well aware that they will have to put into place a plant that meets standards that are proven state of the art. They are well known and understanding of that fact . Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the question is, why, when Louisiana-Pacific is improving their plants to state-o f- the-art standards in the States, they are using the RTO emission controls, here in Manitoba they are recommending the E- Tube emission controls which are being eliminated in the States?

Why are we having a lower standard of controls here in Manitoba than in the United States? Mr. Manness : Mr. Speaker, the member makes an assumption, and the assum ption is that what they are trying to bring into the States bas proven to be better than the state of the art. If that is indeed proven, that is what Louisiana-Pacific will put into place in Swan River. Ms.

Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister then whether his department or members of the Environment branch have met with the EPA to discuss that issue of which controls are better and have discussed with them why they are insi sting on the RTO em ission controls and why this government is going for a lesser standard which could put the health of the worlters and the people in the area at risk. Why are we accepti ng a lower standard here in Manitoba? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, again, the member for Swan River is fe annongering. This government is not going for lesser stand ards.

This government is going for the highest proven standards that exist, and I know the departme nt-! do not know whether they have met in person, but there are ongoing weekly discussions by way of other telecommunication process. I sa y that those discussions have taken pla ce , No. 1, and No. 2, once it is proven, or whatever is proven to be the highest standards are those that Louisiana-Pacific will be expected to have put into place in Swan River. I think the member is doing a disservice to her constituents in raising fe ars around this process . Manitoba Lott eries Corporation Review Mr.

Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Crown Corporations Council released its annual report current to the end of 1993, December 31, '93. For the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries C01poration, in that report, page 6, they review that corporation. I want to read one quote. They indicate: "There is a mounting concern about the negative consequences of gaming in the media and in the opinion of a segment of the population of Manitoba.

These negative consequence s represent a business risk which, if not addr essed, bas the potential to limit MLC's ability to carry out its strategic plan." Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister: A number of people in the community, the independent group from the University of Manitoba and ma ny others have called consistently for a review of gaming activities in Manitoba and a full publi c debate . We now have a business reason for that in addition to the social reasons.

My question for the minister: Will be now accept the advice of even his own Crown Corporations Council and have that full public review and debate about the operations of this corporation? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, as the member quite appropriately ide ntifies, that report was as of the end of March 1993. The Lotteries Corporation at that time employed Dr. Rachel Volberg to do an

2790 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 ana lysis, as was su ggested by the Crown Co:rporations Council As a result of the Volberg study, which was released in June of 1993, the Lotteries Corporation put into place, in concert with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, a plan to train nine dedicated staff, to provide $2.5 million in funding in order to treat problem gamblers, in order to create an awareness program and to create an education program. All those things that were rec omm ended have been done. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, this report was tabled yesterday; it is dated December 31, 1993.

Another question is why we have only received that at this point. My further question for the minister: Given that this report specific ally further states, the council rec ommends that the Lotteries Corporation continue to review all its products, to identify opportunities to improve its response to social issues, will the minister take the advice of this Crown Co:rporations Council and start to listen to the public and tell the public what the true social cost and fina ncial cost of this level of gaming in this province are? Mr. Ernst : Mr.

Speaker, those exact things are occurring on a regular basis with the Manitoba Lotteries Co:rporation. We meet regularly with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba. We try and assess what the meaning of the kind of response we get to the 1-800 hot line is. We try and asse ss, at the same time, whether we are providing adequate funding, adequate resources towards the potential for problem gambling. All those things are being reviewed on an ongoing basis . We have yet to complete a year of the new bingo halls that were constructed, and we have yet to complete a year with VLTs in Winnipeg.

Ongoing assessment is taking place, and, once that year is up and we have had a chance to assess a full year's operations, we will review it again. Mr. Edwards : Finally, for the same minister. There has been one response to this: the $548,0 00 pub lic relat ions cam paign by the Manitoba Lotteries Co:rporation. My final question for this minister: How much is it going to take?

The Crown Corporations Council, the petition tabled in this Legislature recently, 1,500 names on it, the independent University of Manitoba study-bow many independent studies from Minnes ota or other jurisdictions is it going to take before this government calls a halt to this and does a full review of the real cost of gambling in this community in tenns of the addiction, in terms of the social cost and in terms of the lost revenue to other businesses in this community? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, we issued a moratorium on November 3, 1993.

With respect to the other issues that the member raises, they are ongoing. We are reviewing them on a regular basis, taking cogni zance of the fac t that as inf ormation arises-and my honourable friend makes all kinds of accusations and tends to jump to conclusions that are, by and large, unf ounded. We are attempting to deal with the facts as they arise. Berens River Fishermen Meeting Request Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsl and): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Na tural Resources.

The minister will rec all that, on behalf of the Berens River fishermen, I have previously asked the minister, I believe it was on May 17, to meet with the fishermen concerning the proposed line changes on Lake Winnipeg. The Berens River fishermen ha d hoped to have that meeting yesterday prior to the opening of the new season today. When will the minister mee t with these fishermen to discuss this matter, and did he indeed have a representative at that meeting yesterday? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resou rces): Mr.

Speaker, the req uest that has been coming, not from just one community but from various communities, for boundary changes and the fishing boundaries, is a very complex issue. There are many elemen ts and comm unities involved in this. I have undertaken and instructed staff to start doing a review of it, but there is very little percentage in meeting with the various

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2791 groups until we have bad some further discussion among ourselves with the staff . I have instructed my deputy to be in touch with the va rious communities to inform them what the status is. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, the minister will rea lize that the season is very short and that fishermen are having a great deal of difficulty making a living curre ntly. Could the minister make this issue a priority? Mr. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, I think probably most of the members are aware that in the past few years the fishing industry has had setbacks because of cost or the lack of prices that are basically taking place. When this happens, concern gets raised by all elements of the fishing industry, and this is what has happened here . I want to tell the member that the c omm ercial fishing season has been opened and there will not be any changes to the boundaries for the fishing season that is in effect right now. We will be reviewing it, and we will be making our decisions later on in the fall. •

(1440) Mr. Robinson : Mr. Speaker, the fishing industry, according to the fishermen, has been regarded as being no diff erent than farming. Will the minister directly communicate the comments that he has made in this House to the fishermen of Berens River and elsewhere on Lake Winnipe g? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I will give that undertaking. Legislative Building Wheelchair Access Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkir k): Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Government Services.

Yesterday, the minister admitted in the House that he is spending $752,0 00 replacing the steps to the Legislature just one year after building a ramp at the side of this building for wheelchair access. I ask the minister, would he check his briefing notes and tell the House when the curre nt pro ject was first approved, and why he did not combine these two pro jects so that the wheelchair ramp could be built in front of this building as it should have bee n? Bon. Gerald Duc harme (M inister of Government Services): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, the ramp that was built at the back was in consultation with the handicapped people, along with the Speaker, in addressing the handicapped upstairs. If you take a look at the stairs yourself, you will see that the front steps-you would almost need a ramp all the way to Broadway Avenue to get up the two levels of steps that occur. If he would like to review the ramp on the west side, he will see there is a button to get inside that automatically opens the door.

The ramp is at an access that these peopJe can get in and out, as the person upstairs who is reviewing the Question Period today was unable to do under the previous administration. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Speaker, is this minister now telling the House that disabled people will have to wait another 75 years before a ramp at the front of this building will be incotporated in the future replacement of those steps? Do we have to wait another 75 years? Mr. Du charme: Mr.

Speaker, I am just amazed that the member would get up and ask and talk about years when their government did absolutely nothing to this for the people to get into this building, absolutely nothing. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Speaker, my final question to the Minister responsible for Government Services, and the minister responsible for evading the issue: What disabled- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member that these are all honourable members, and you refer to the minister as the honourable minister responsible for. Mr. Dewar: Mr.

Speaker, what disa bled organizations did this minister consult with before he approved of spending $750,000 to replace the steps on this building? Mr. Du charme: Mr. Spea ker, the only one who evaded the issue was the previous administration who were here for 16 years.

27(]2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 The particular pro ject that we did, we bad a proposal call with app roximately seven or eight consulting engineers who looked at the building when we were having this problem. We are not going to ignore the safety of this building because the member wants to get a couple of points on the floor of the House. Hepatitis C Virus Blood Supply Tracing Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Spe aker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

The Red Cross bas app arently made a decision to trace the blood supp ly of individuals who have received blood transfusions in order to notify individuals who may have been infected with the potentially deadly hepatitis C virus. Can the minister advise this House what the provi ncial policy is with respect to aiding the Red Cross in the tracing of this blood, Mr. Speaker? Bon. James Downey (Acting Minister of Health) : I will take that question as notice for the minister, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Chomiak: Can the minister also advise this House as to what the provincial policy is with respect to compensating hospitals which will have to carry out the bulk of this woik in order to trace the blood supply? Mr. Downey: I will take that as notice for the minister, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chomiak: My final supplementary: Can the minister advise this House when we will be receiving a decision from the government with respect to their policy, what their definitive policy will be with respect to the tracing of blood for individuals who may have been infected with the potentially serious and deadly hepatitis C virus, Mr.

Speaker? Mr. Downey: I will take that question as notice for the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), Mr. Speaker. Education System Reform Report Tabling Request Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. The other day in the Estimates, the Minister of Education was starting to back down on his commitment to table a document on education reform in the month of June.

I would like for the Minister of Education to reaffinn to the many interest groups that be bas indicated that be was anticipating having that document in the month of June, to reaffirm that commitment from this government to bring down the educational reform package in the month of June. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, that is the most idiotic question I have beard for a week. As I have said over and over again, my target is to try and have this before the public by the end of June. I cannot make a commitment to do the impossible if it is impossible. But, Mr.

Speaker, I am wolkiog towards that deadline . I am hoping I can deliver that day, and nobody will be angrier than I will with myself if I do not attain that. If the member is asking me to commit it and to sign an oath in blood that I have to have this down by the end of June, I will not do that. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questi ons bas expired. NONPOLflaCAL STATEMENTS Manitoba Children's Museum Opening Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement ? [agreed] Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington) : Mr.

Speaker, today, June I, maiks the official opening of the Manit oba Childre n's Museum at The Forks. I would like to extend my congratulations and also the co ngratulations of our ca ucus on this remaikable achievement. Mr. Speaker, I have a personal connection with the Manitoba Children's Museum, as the woman whose idea this was who spent 10 years of her life bringing this idea to fruition, Linda lsitt, was my next-door neighbour in 1982. She came over on a Sunday afternoon and shared with me her idea which was at the very beginning of it. I was one of

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2793 the fir st chairs of the Manitoba Children's Museum when we moved into the Pacifi c Avenue loc ation. I think, Mr. Speaker, for all the province of Man itoba, this museum is a remarkable achievement. At the beginning in 1984, when it first opened its doors on Pacific Avenue to today's offi cial opening at the B & B Building at The Fotb , it is a remarlcable achievement for all of the people of Manitoba. The community has follow ed behind this organiz ation.

The various levels of government, the New Democ rats and now the Conservatives have supported greatly this museum. The business community , nonprofit organiz ations , individuals have all wo rked together to make this museum arguably the best Children's Museum in the world. We should as Manitobans be very proud of this achie vement. It should go on our record as being one of the high points of any visitor to the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba in the future, and I wish the Children's Museum and all those who have spent 12 years working on it the best of luck in the future . Charity Bicycle Trip Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Emerson have le ave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson) : Mr. Speaker, six weeks ago, a youn g native-form erly of Altona , Manitoba, by the name of Albert Martens, who as a missionary at the Black For est Academ y in southern Germany, took it upon himself to take a bicycle trip across Germany to raise money for education and soc ial se rvices in Russ ia. Mr.

Martens, last Sunday, finis hed his journey of a thousand kilometre s with an injured ankle-a tape d-up ankle-and fi nished the journey and raised $100 ,000 to help the needy people in Russia to provide both social services and education for their children. I want to congr atulate Mr. Martens today for the effort that he single-handedly took to improve the situation of young people in other countri es. Manitoba Children's Museum Opening Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship have leave to make a nonpoli tical statement? [agreed] Bon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship) : Mr. Speaker, I, too, wo uld like to acknow ledge the opening to the public today of the Children's Museum at The Fo lks. The official ribbon cutting and opening was held yesterday with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and off icials from the city in attendance. I can confirm through a visit to the museum that this is a tremendous addition to The Folks complex and wo uld urge all members to take the oppo rtunity to visit that museum in the near future.

This is a world- renowned Children's Museum, and we are very pleased we have been able to support the construction. I am sure all visitors to The Forlcs will remade on this and value it as a very important landmarlc and an addition to that Forks complex. • (1450 ) Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Cres centwood have leave to make a nonp olitical statement? Leave? [agreed] Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwo od): Mr. Speaker, I join with my colleagues on both sides of the House in cong ratulating the of fic ial opening of the Children's Museum at The Fotb.

Althou gh I have not had the opportunity as of yet to see the facilitie s, certainly the new s reports and indication s from neighbours of mine whose childre n were there , indicate it is a wonder ful faci lity. I think the many years of work that have gone into this museum by countles s volunteers attest to the willingness of the people of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba to put fort h a world-class museum. I think we are very fo rtun ate in the province of Mani toba. We have so many organizations who are willing to develop a museum such as this.

We have a wond erful cultur al lif e in this province and I think the addition of the Children's Museum certainly will make this province a better place to live.

2794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 I look forward to visiting the musewn very soon and ensuring that my young nieces and nephews have that opportunity as wel l. So I congratulate all of the individuals who have put so much work into the Children 's Musewn . ORDERS OF THE DAY House Busin ess Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speak er , th e House leader s have bad discussions, again, with regard to Estimates consideration and so on. I think if you would canvass the House you would find a willingness to waive private members' hour today. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour today? Some Honourable Members: Agree d. Mr. Speaker: That is agree d. Mr. Ernst : I wonder if you would canvass the House to seek if there was unanimous consent to change the sitti ng hour s this evenin g from curre ntly 7 to 11 p.m. until 7 till 10 p.m. and that subrule 65(9) would apply between five and six and between seven and 10 as opposed to seven and 11 which was previously agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for what bas just been said? So now, app arently, we are sitting between the hour s of 7 p.m. and 10 p.m.

What was previously agreed to was between the hours of 7 p.m. and 11 p.m., but now we are sitting from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m.? That is agreed? There is agreement? Okay. And that Rule 65.(9) will apply. Mr. Ernst : Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce that the committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Thursday, June 9, at 10 a.m., to consider the 19 93 Annual Report of Manitoba Hydro. Mr. Speak er, the committee on Municipal Aff airs will meet on the 14th of June, Tuesday , to consider the Annual Report of The Forks Renewal C01poration.

The committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, June 21, to consider the 1993 Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable minis ter for that infonnation. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the Oerk bas advised me I neglected to say that all of those committee meetings, that is the 9th of June for Manitoba Hydro, the 14 th for The Forks Renewal Corporation and the 21st of June for the Workers Compensation Board all will start at 10 a.m. With that , Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a committee to co nsider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the hon ourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Justice. • (15 00) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) AGRICULTURE Mr.

Deputy Ch airperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afte rnoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. When the co mmittee last sat, it bad been cons idering item 4.(b)(

l) on page 16 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Ros ano Wowchuk (Swan River ): Yesterday, when we reached six o'clock, we were in the process of discussing the plans that the Manitoba pork producers and the government have. I was asking the minister about the progress in the plans that the government is working on, on a processing facility for hogs here in Manitoba. The minister's answ er was interrupted at that time. Perhaps we could go back to that, and the minister could fill us in on at what stage those plans are and

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2795 when he anticipates we will hear an ann ouncement or the results of the study. Bon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what I was somewhat passionately getting myself involved in was my enthusiasm for the opportunities that in fact exist in the value- added, job-creating expansion of our bog industry and porlc processing. I certainly want to acknowledge that I would trust honourable me mbers opposite share in some of those oppo rtunities.

The bog industry is one of the sectors of our livestock industry that, for various reasons, not least of which are-and I take this opportunity to commend the bog producers of Manitoba and all those engaged in hog produc tion in Manitoba, including those officials within the Department of Manitoba Agr icul ture .

We have gained a reputation of producing some of the finest quality bogs and porlc in the world, in the country , and that is important, because what we are now talking about is whether or not it is worth our while in Manitoba to seriously make the effort to produce for the export markeL Let us be very clear about thaL We are talking about competing with other ma jor po rk producers in the world, notably Denmarlc, our American neighbours, of course. 1bere seems to be a defined need for additional quality porlc, certainly in the Pacific Rim countries and within our own marlcet as well , but particularly in the expanding opportunities that Manitoba Porlc and individual processors have fo und, with growing success, in places like California, for instance.

We anticipa te, we have reason to believe , a significant movement of processed red meats of all varieties into the Mexican market. So it is for these reasons that marlceting people within the Department of Agriculture , private -sect or people, and-quite frankl y, it should be noted that Manit oba is not the only jurisdiction that bas come to this conclusion. My co lle ague the Honou rable Da rrel Cunni ngham, the Minis ter of Agriculture fo r the Province of Saskatchewan, if members bad been reading some of the farm press in the last little while, hardly a week goes by that there is not an

article in those papers that indicates Saskatchew an's keen desire to participate in this bog expansion for the same reasons that Manitoba bas: to find a home for feed grains, feed barl ey; and to possibly anticipate a greater problem showing up in the movement of these grains should there be fu ndamental changes to such long-st anding programs of supp ort, like the Crow benefit, that take place .

Of course, what rises above everything else and those of us who are in the political field certainly understand, every public opinion poll that is taken for the last several years, particular ly during the last economic setback in Canada, the recession, places job creations as the No. 1 item of concern among Canadians, and Manitobans are not excluded from that.

Officials will have multiplier effects for me, and I will ask them for a moment, but every thousand bogs produced on the farm provid es, of course, employment in rural Manitoba in the trucking and in the movement of grain and in our growing feed manufacturing industry. We have a number of fe ed mills that are producing ever more sophisticated, in larger quantitie s, tonnages of prepared fe ed mixes for the live stock industry, and all of these people employ Manito bans.

Even more to the point, with re spect to job creation, is that for every thousand hogs, I look for my officials to correct me there, about 6.4, 6.3 jobs created in the pr ocess ing end of it. Those are jobs essentially in the urban centre s, in Winn ipeg, talking about the fa cilities at Schneid er's, at Bums, Forgan 's, and jobs that smaller processors across the province can create. That is the cli�ate, members of the committ ee, that induces me, as minister of the department at this point in time, to encourage increased activity in this field .

Also, the recognition is there that there is associated with this particular form of livestock produ ction very real and legitimate concerns about the impact it may have on our environment. For that reason, as I indicated in the closing moments when last the committee met, that a considerable amount of my time, the time of senior members of staff of the department, along with a very wide

2796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 range of other interested parties, including help from the academic community, from the universitie s, from our agricultural producers group, like the Keystone Agricultural Producers group, from Manitoba Pork itself, from the processors, from actual hog producers, has gone in the last fo ur or five months into developing the very detailed and specific not only guideli nes but actual regulations that have the fo rce of law, . backed by statute, that clearly set out how we intend to deal with the environmental issues raised in the production of bogs and why, quite franldy, we fe el confident that we can do this , without jeopardizing the natural environment.

I want to assure honourable members of the committee that it is as near and dear to any person living in rural Manitoba as it is anywhere else in the country. It just makes sense. Some of us live next to and have to live with these operations, and we do not want to see our ground water supplies polluted or threatened for ourselves and future generations of our children.

We have confidence in believing-in fa ct, it will be a responsibility that the Animal Industry Branch of the Department of Agriculture , along with our sister department, the Environment department, which has more of the regulatory enfo rcement powers within its mandate , and always watched with care and concern by a department that I have some experience with, the Department of Natural Reso urces , which has the prime responsibility of loc ating and studying and collecting data on ground water sup pli es, on the mapping of underground aquif er conditions, of having and passing on that expert inform ation to our agricultural engineers, who are then responsible for the monitoring and the design and the writing the specifications, many of which you see in that book that I passed out the other day, that have fo und themselves into these regulations. • (15 10) This is all what bas happening in the hog industry.

Now, specifically , let me be very clear. That comes to a question that the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) raised with me in the House just the other day. Should the government, should the dep artment, should we be arbitrarily deciding what constitutes an acceptable scale or size of hog operation? Should we say, you can have 500 bogs but not more in an individual building? Or a thousand and not more?

I have to say to her and my own members of the committee , I am sorry, this government does not fe el itself competent nor should we philosophically interfere with those kind of marlcet-driven decisions . We are asking Manitoba hog producers to compete on a global scale with operations that are 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 in size in Arkansas or in Missouri or in Taiwan or in Denmark. We are asking only-but we have standar ds. We are insisting that they be carried out in a manner that does not compromise our environm ent.

To do anything less, quite franldy, we would not see, in my judgment, in my opinion and that of the experts that advise me, the growth that has taken place in the past number of years in Manitoba continue to take place if we begin to atbitrarily, with the heavy band of government, interfere in these kind of marlcet decisions. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, several things will happen.

We also believe , and I believe this with absolute con viction, that it is a distortion of these marlcet fo rces if we as government, by way of special program, attempt to lure or artificially develop processing plants or encourage hog production in the province of Manitoba. Those kinds of programs, quite franldy, have been tried in the past, where we perhaps, by an outright grant, provide a couple of thousand dollars or whatever to a prospective hog farm er to induce him to get into bog production.

We had, just previous to de aling with this section, the senior management of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. We will do everything we can to provide advice. We will do everything we can to provide access to normal credit channels for this expansion, but as a gover nment we do not believe that it is appropriate , particu larly at this time when res ource s are under a great deal of pressure and, quite franldy, would not be prioritized in this way. If extra dollars are avail able, this government has time and time again demon strated-and I

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2797 speak with some all too real memories of that. Departments such as Agriculture , such as Natural Resources and other departments willingly contribute to the priorities established by this government in those high-cost areas of He alth, Education and Family Services. We are not going to be talking about luring industries.

It is a development, quite fmnkly, that I am pleased to hear, whether or not all govemments will live up to it, but First Ministers ' conferences, recent western ministers ' conferences have dwelt on the subject that it is not an appropriate use of taxpayers ' funds, public funds , to try to lure a particular processing firm or company to come and to lo cate in Manitoba with a pocketful of taxpayers' money to start up a plant. I am not so sure that may or may not take place in some jurisdictions. Manitoba and this government is not prepared to travel that road.

What we are prepared to do is that we are prepared to put in the full resources of the department staff . We are prepared to pass the necessary legisla tion and regulations to safeguard the environment; and we are prepared to devote a considerable amount of our energies within our Malketing Branch-and that is the branch that we are now dealing with, Agricultural Development and Marketing-to welcome visitors who come to us on trade missions.

We expend a considerable amount of our travel budget in this department on sending trade missions to Japan, to Korea, to the United States, to Mexico, in the hope of expanding marlceting opportunities for the anticipated expansion in the hogs.

I will stop my monologue here because I do appreciate this is an opportunity for opposition members to ask their questions , but again talking about size, in our neighbour ing province of Sas katchewan, it is rumoured that they are seeking -and I read with some concern, despite what I just said a moment ago-that there are some reports indicating that there could well be some outright governmental assistance in providing, finding the investment funds . They are seeking investment funds to create hog operations of the order of 10 0,000 each. We are talking about a diffe rent style of hog production. Mr.

Deputy <llairpe rson, in conclusion, we will in Manitoba have a variety of hog productions, some sm .all and me dium family-size hog operations. What we would call fa mily-size operations will always be there, and I hope they always will be there. They consist right now of about 30 percent, 35 percent of the bogs produced in the province of Manitoba. We have another distinct grouping of bog producers that I am very fa miliar with because I have a great deal of them, a concentration of them , in fact, in the constituency of Lakeside.

Those are the Hutterite communities that produce, again, virtually up to 35 percent, I believe, 34, 35 percent. [interjection] Pardon. I am corrected. It is 37 percent of all the hogs. Of the 2.4 million hogs produced in Manitoba, 37 percent are produced on the fanns of our Hutterite brothers and sist ers. Then we have another group-and these are probably the groups that have attracted most notoriety in the past few years-and these are also the very large commercial operati ons. Some are somewhat integrated with feed companies, but my understanding is most of them are independent operati ons .

The y may have some kind of management contracts that involve feed and to bring about a superior hog production that use their size to get all the genetic benef its of the best possible hog productions into Manitoba, as well as feed conversions and so fo rth. They produce the remaining 30 or 35 percent of the bog producers .

So you have your kind of three levels of hog productions in place right now, although you should really lump the 37 percent of Hutterite hog produ ction in with the comme rcial hog productions, because they are not producing on the scale of what we would call the average or medium-size, small-size family farm . They are sophistica te d, major hog producers in million-dollar barns, and of course they are involving 20 or 30 fam ilies as a unit in these productions . It is in the commercial sec tion-we ll, not exclusively-m ost of the expansion of growth will take place .

There has been an intere sting development in the last just fe w years by a group

2798 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 that is promoting quite a diff erent approach to bog produ ction. They have come out with the kit kind of and proposals for what we call the biotech barns. They are low cost, low-capital cost, do not deal with the wet hog manure. It is not involved in any lagoom or barns. These are kind of, like , open housing in the cattle industry. The member for Swan River (Ms. Wowch uk) will know what I speak of.

Quite fran kl y, they repre sent considerably less of an environmental challenge to deal with in the sense that it is dry manure, and there are certainly less problems associated with runoff or indeed distribution on the land. To what extent these will succeed is an open jur y.

I think there would have to be some considerable monitoring to find whether or not they can compete with the mor e controlled environment of the more capital-intensive barns that we are familiar with, whether or not in our 30 and 35 and 40 below weather on a sustained basis their fe ed conversions would equal the quite remarkable fe ed conversions that are now being experienced in some of these sophisticated organizations . They are marvelous. I am advised that they now have feed conversions down to about 3 lbs. of feed to a pound of pork and even below that in some of the barns to 2.8.

On a consistent basis, is that-my director of the Animal Industry branch, who by the way I take pleasure in introducing, is Dr. John Taylor who directs the Animal Industry branch, and joins us along with Dr. Neuf eld, whom I introduced the other afternoon. •

(1520) I think I have left the honourable members enough of a background, but I do and I will prom ise to behave myself and restrain myself in the future and not make unfounded allegations or doubt or question by innuendo motives from the opposition, because I will tell you, it is extremely important in my opinion because we do have-and the hog producers understand it, the people at Manitoba Pork understand it, and we in the department understand it-a very fundamental public relations problem on our hands.

It would be, quite frankly, too bad if we allowed it to take the upper hand and thus deny our farmers and our ec onomic well- being in the province this tremendous opport unity. Thank you. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the minister for all of that inf ormation. However, there was a specific question that I was asking. I wanted to know where the province was in their plans, along with Manitoba Pork, to build a fac ility here in Manitoba. The minister talked about the importance of the hog industry and all livestock industry, the importance to rural Manitoba and to the urban centres.

I have to say that I agree with him. That is something our party has always agreed with, that we do have to have economic growth. Certainly, by getting value-added jobs from both the pork and the beef industry, it will help us replace some of those jobs that we have lost in other areas in this pro vince, both in the city and rural centres . We have to have economic growth. The hog industry is important. The minister talked about the environmental standards and other issues, but I would, first of all, like to talk about the plant and where those plans are.

When would we expect to see an answ er on it, some information to whether this is a possibility or not? Mr. Enos: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it should be understood that a minister, when he chooses not to answer a specific question that is directed at him, he does so by eloquently and sincerely talking about everything else but the question he is asked in the hope that if he does it with enough conviction, the questioner will have forg otten the original question asked. To her credit, the member fo r Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) has not been taken in by this. That has served me so well on many occasions, I might say.

There is, as the member is aware, a fe asibility study that has been ente red into under the sponsor ship of Manitoba Pork and with the co-o peration of the fo ur proc essors: Schneider 's, Bums, For gan's, and the new Springhill plant at Neepawa. They have re ceived modest support from my colleague the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) and the REDI program, a $25,000 grant.

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2799 What they are really doing in the next month or two, and we have set them a fairly short time line , is to see whether or not there is fe asibility or possibility to, either with the co-operation of the existing processors that are there , these four finns that I mentioned-that is why I am co-operating with them-to consider the feasibilities of what we call a world-class hog-killing plant that could considerably reduce the costs of hog killin g. I am told they are considerab le.

We are competing with some of these larger plants, both in Alberta and in Toronto, that are moving through considerably more bogs than our fo ur relatively medium-sized fa cilities are handling. Our killing costs may be upwards to $7, $7 .50, $8 per hog, as compared to $2.50 or $3 a hog elsewhere in the intemational marketplace . So they are examining that, although that is not the only reason. They are also saying, right now it is a que stion of using-1 will use a fum like Schneider's, for instance. Burns is just concluding a fairly major expansion, and they, of course, are a major player in this business.

But for a plant like Schneider 's or for Forgan's, for them to be dedicating space for a kill operation, they may be better off to co-operate with one killing plant and then in fact use that. That is where the job creation comes, and buy the-1 am loo king for my colleague the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), who has an experience in the meat industry as a fo rmer meat inspecto r- when a finn like Schneid er's would buy the carcass from a killing plant and add further processing in their current plant. Of course, it is in the further processing that we add further value, we add further jobs.

That is the extent of the provincial government 's involve ment, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, through you, to the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), with respect to looking at the processing question. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate whether he knows which sites are being considered in this fe asibility, and I think about the-is Minne dosa one of the sites that is in consideration, since the Springhill plant is already there ? Mr. Eons : Mr. Deputy Chairpe rs on, it is premature to suggest that this feasibility study-it is not even in their terms of refetence that we are looking at sitings at this point yet.

What really is, first of all, is setting out some broad criteria of whether or not there is a possi bility of co-operation between our existing processing finns to engage -after all, you are asking quite a bit; these are individual private finns in a competitive market situ ation-whether or not in their corporate strategy, they are prepared to share in the capital require d. Is Burns prepared to share in the capital required to build a plant that Schneider's and Forgan's are going to be part of, is the major question.

It may prove , and I do not wish to speculate on what the fe asibility study will bring out, but it may well be that in fact it is not possible to do that. It may be indeed that the obstacles are just too diffi cult to overcome and that if indeed further processing expansion were to take place in Manitoba, it would come from one of the existing finns , whether a company like Burns or Schneider's or somebody else or, indeed, there are other major players interested from eastern Canada and from the States who could well be interested in building a super world-class killing plant here in Manitoba.

We have not restricted ourselve s to anybody. I know that inquiries have been made to Denmark, for instance, who know a great deal about hog production and hog processing. They have indicated that at this juncture they are not interested in es tablishing North American processing fac ilities, but that is just to give some scope of where we are at right now. The fact of the matter is, and this ties back to the expansion of bogs, we will not seriously look at an expanded hog processing industry in Manitoba with the attendant-and I am not exaggerating, I want honourable members to know.

If it were only coming from me then perhaps you could believe it, but this comes fr om departmental experts, economic people in the processing fields. If we were to double our bog production to the four and a half million hogs, we are talking about an additional 7,000 or 8,000 jobs in Manitoba.

2800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 The point that I was trying to ma ke is a world-class facility of the kind that we are talldng about needs those amounts of hogs before they would be interested in expending the capital and building the processing plant here. Now they would not have to come entirely from Manitoba. We might be drawing some from North Dakota. We might be drawing from Saskatchewan, but as we are thinking about this, Sa skatchewan is wanting to do precisely the opposite.

I have to be concerned about the fact that if that plant is not located in Manitoba, if it is located in Sa skatchewan, particul arly in east ern Saskatchewan, say in the Regina area or east of Regina, many of our hogs would be now moving to Saskatchewan for processing and with them the jobs, just as our concern is right now that upwards to 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 hogs a week are leaving Manitoba to Toronto, to Ontario for processing. That is a situation that troubles us greatly. •

(1530) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, the minister has indicated that there is some urgency in getting the results of this feasibility study to see whether there is potential to establish the industry here in Manitoba, a much needed industry, to create as the minister says, many jobs, jobs that will certainly stimulate the Manitoba economy to a better level than it is right now. So then in what time frame are we looking at? When do we expect that there will be results from this study? Are the results of the study to be presented to government or where will the results of the feasibility study go? Mr.

Eo ns: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the government has some time ago established a senior three-person committee consisting of Dr. Oay Gilson whom some of you will know from the University of Manitoba, assisted by my assistant deputy mi nister Da ve Donaghy from the Department of Agriculture and Mr.

Geny Moore from the Economic Developmen t Committee Secretariat Those three gentlemen have worked diligently over the pa st two or three mo nths, four mo nths-since Ja nu ary-in bringing about discussions with the various interested parties, with the hog producers themselves through Manitoba Pork, with the processing industry, with us in government, and although this is an internal comm itt ee, they are of course providing continuing advice to myself as the minister and to the government as a whole.

Part of their work is the result of the feasibility study that is now underway, which is being done largely under the sponsorship, I would say, of Manitoba Pork and the processors, the searching out the possibilities of one world-class killing plant. Again, as I said earlier, they have been asked to report in a fairly short time line within a one-to two-month period from now. So we will expect some decisions to be taken some time in the summertime.

There are a number of decisions, I think, that have to be addressed, including the one that is of considerable concern to us, as I indicated just a few moments ago, and that is what needs to be done to ensure that the maximum number of hogs that are produced in Manitoba are in fact processed in Manitoba. Ms. Wowchuk: Just on that, the minister had indicated that there are some 3,000 to 5,000 hogs weekly on average leaving this province to be processed out of province.

Can the minister tell us why that is occurring, why they are by-passing the central-are they by-passing the central desk selling, and why is this happening that these hogs are leaving the province unprocessed or in the live stage? Mr. Enns: That is a very legitimate question, when you place that next to the instructions that went out from Manitoba Pork to our existing processors, that because of a hog shortage in Man itoba, they will only be able to supply Schneider's, Burns and Forgan's with 80 percent of their requirements.

As a result, we are in the process-in some instances, some individuals have been laid off in our processing industry because we cannot supply enough bogs to keep the jobs in Manitoba. Meantime, hogs are leaving Manitoba, 3,000 or 4,000 a week, to be processed in Ontario and providing the jobs, of course, for the workers in Ontario. Th at, I am sure , is as

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2801 . unacceptable to members of tbe commi ttee as it is to me. So these are some of the bard questions that tbe commi ttee that I referred to bas been examining. Ostensibly , on the surface, the reason is simply a matter of price. These are some of our premium hogs being produce d by some of our premium producers, mostly p roducers in the constituency of my colleague the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Driedger), and La Verendrye, that are getting and receiving premium prices over that which is paid or what they would receive in Manitoba through our bog mu:keting process. So they are leaving it. It is a free mu:ket. We , of comse, ship some bogs live to the United States as well. That shipment movement does not worry us quite as much, because in the main, it is in the mature, the sow and the boar mu:ket, and quite frankly I think our producers are well served, that we have that outlet into the American mu:ket for these mature bog animals.

The question of, at the same time, having our processors by court order not getting sufficient bogs that they have mu:kets for and onlers for here and would like to keep Manitobans fully employed is a deeply troubling one . I will not speculate again, because the jury is out on what some of tbe recommended chang e s ought to be, whether or not we need to look very bard at the manner and way in which we ma rket our hogs. We have the sin gle-selling desk that the member is fa miliar with. I compliment the people who. operate the Manitoba Pork Board, as we used to call it.

They have ma de some signif icant changes in their method of selling . They have adopted new and mor e innovative for mula tions ba sed on international and the U.S. market in pork trends that seems to have found favour with the proce ssors. Obviously, there are still some things to be done .

I am not satisfied because it bas also been reported to me that in some instances these hogs that are leaving Manitoba and not going through our hog commission-as I call it from the day s that I remember it-althou gh I want to be careful and not paint them all with the same brush, but some of them are not paying the levy that the Manitoba Pork raises. It is a checkoff. I say every bog raised and grown in Manitoba ought to pay that levy, because the boanl does many things in the generic interests of tbe hog industry, in the pork industry in Manitoba. They promote the product.

They help in the ma rke ting of the product. They help in the education, and in my judgment, have even a bigger task ahead. We have to now educate our pork producers on the farm of the seriousness of these regulations, that if some of them have conducted themselves in the past in a mann er that is not acceptab le, and some of them have, it is not acceptable to be careless in how you handle the mortalities, the deaths , in an operation.

You cann ot throw them in a snowbank in the wintertime beside a creek in a ditch and then be surprised if neighbours and other people are extremely disturbed when they find them in the spring melt, de composing bodies that are indeed a threat to the natural environment, to the runoff of water, somethin g like that. So that book tells you that you have to have refrigerated fa cilities on your farm where your deaths and mortalities go into and then can be picked up by rendering companies so that they are dealt with properly , or other specifications that are built into it.

Quite frankly, it is a very major education task that the department will have to underta ke , but we view Manitoba Pork and the pork industry being part of that and for that they need funds. I think that every hog grown and produced in a province should contribute to that fund. It should not be the general taxpayer . They are quite happy to do that, but it disturbs me when I find out that some of these 3,000, 4,000 hogs that are leaving the province in by-passing the commission are not paying that levy. There has been some voluntary payment. There bas been a commitment to paying that.

So these are some of the things that I have to address in the next little while. •

(1540) Ms. Wowchuk: The minister does a good job of anticipating next questions that are coming . One of

2802 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 the concerns I bad raised to me from some of the pork produceiS is the fact that those people who are by-passing the single-desk selling are not paying their fair share to the Manitoba Pork, but are able to take advantage of all of the promotion that the ass ociation does for pork produceiS across the province.

I do not quite understand why the minister indicates that the plants here are operating below capacity and have had to lay off people , that there is a shortage of hogs here in Manitoba to operate these facilities at the present time, and yet there are still hogs leaving the prov ince. Is it because of price? Why would they choose to ship them out of the province if there is a facility here in a province that can process? Mr.

Enos: I am sure, to the honourable member, and she will understand this too as a primary producer, because if somebody is off ering you $7 or $8 or $10 or $12 more for the hog, that tends to make that market decision fairly easy. Now, it is more complicated than that. There are some suggestions that I receive that this is because of a current somewhat shortage . These are going to one large plant, Pearman's plant in the Toronto area and in Ontario.

They are running a very full double shift, and it is economic for them to offer to these premium Manitoba hogs this extra premium, even though it is only maybe 5 percent of their overall requirements, but it keeps those shifts running full tilt, the economies achieve in so doing, that they intend to do that-no t easy answeiS as to how to combat that. As the honourable member will recall from yesteniay 's Question Period, I am basically a free trader, and none of this expansion would be possible if we were not talking about our ability to trade beyond our bordeiS.

So it is very hard to talk in those terms about our export opportunities to California, to Japan, to Me xico, but then at the same time, attempt to by either legislation or some other government edict, curtail the Manitoba produ cer from selling and searching out those markets that he fe els are best for him. In this case, regrettably, you have to be in Ontario. But I say with concern, there could be six months from now, well, not six months, but there co uld be a couple of yea rs from now, Saskatchewan or North Dakota.

There seems to be a consensus that agricultural economists, people much more learned than myself, have suggested that because of the fact that we have some very unique advantages in the production of hogs and pork in this part of the world, because we already produce a superior product that is recognized internationally, because we have an abundant fe ed supply in this general are a, and I spe ak of Manitoba, North Dakota, Saskatche wan, has capac ity, has room for a major world-class killing facility that would need several millions of hogs, would need hogs far in excess of what we now have .

My advisors tell me that there is reason that we should be concerned about that happening, or at least Manitoba should be putting itself forward in the best possible position that if inde ed it does happen, it should happen here rather than in another jurisdiction, because we will continue to have hog production in the province, but we will not be maximizing the job opportunitie s, the economic op portunities, particularly in our urban centres if for one reason or another, we fail to do evetything in our poweiS.

I say we are not about to tty to coerce or influence a decision here in the injudicious use of grant money or anything like that It has to be market driven, but we see these forces at play . We are aware that neighbouring jurisdictions are talking to people who have an interest in this matter. We see , particularly in the last seven or eight months, the coming together of a very subst antial capacity in Alberta wher e the government , after having taken a failed plant off the hands of one-who was that gentlemen? An Honourable Member: Pocklington. Mr. Enos: Oh, that friend of the Great One. Mr.

Pocklington and GaineiS, but the point being that it has come under the control of Bums people . In other words , there is that world-class capacity developing on the Alberta scene.

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2803 That is of considerable concern to us because having experienced the loss of ess entially the beef processing out of Manitoba, we simply think it is prudent to do everything we can to ensure that , if anything, the hog processing opportunities will be enhanced in Manitoba and not reduced. Ms.

Wowchuk: I guess I can only say that we hope that this government will move quickly and puiSUe attracting some business, some company here , or encourage the development of one of the existing process ors here in Manitoba that we can begin to process many more of those hogs in Manitoba, that the minister anticipates we will see an expansion of this in the province so that we can have the value-added jobs. We now have regulations for the hog industry which were tabled yesterday. We understand that there will be very soon regulations for the beef industry that are being prepared or designed right now.

I want to ask the minister: How does he anticipate implementing these regulations? What are the implications going to be on existing operati ons? Are there any impl ications, and how will those be implemented? Are there going to have to be extra people hired to see that the hog operations , and in the future beef operations , are fo llowing guidel ines as set out by the government? Mr. Enns: Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, the honourable member is correct. A similar set of regulations specific to the production of beef are coming up very shortly.

They will contain in essence much the same fo nn, but, of course, there are diff erences in the manner and the way in which the beef herds are managed and the fee dlots, you know, are run in Manitoba. (Mr.

Ben Sveinson, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Clair) The concern there will be-and that is why every ef fort has been made to include actual producers, whether it was hogs and the fo nnal organizations that represent farmers in Manitoba, like the Keyston e Agricul tural Producers organization, in the development of these hogs , that they not be developed solely from within the Department of Agriculture or within the Department of Environment. Quite frankly, I will accept the criticism from so me that perhaps in some instances the regulations do not go far enough.

This is a first-time introduction of some of these regulations to the farm community, and my job is not to make fanning more complex. I want to make it a practice that is acceptable to our natural environment. H some of my critics from the militant environmental movement wish to take me to task for not, maybe, making these as stringent as they would like them to see, it is a free country. It is their right to make that criticism. •

(1550) I would like, again, to think that of those mem bers in the opposition who have an understanding of the farm site and who have an agricultural background, they will understand that a Minister of Agricultur e in the province of Manitoba, first and fo remost, has the concern of his primary producers at heart. I am satisfied that these are legitimate regul ations that are being drawn up.

To answer the member's final question, you know, in a sense of fairne ss, it is very hard to there may well be farm operations going on right now, particularly because there are very specific regula tions that would come to the beef and livestock, ones about how far you have to be away from a well or how many animals you can have close to a well. People in good fa ith did not have any idea that these regulations may or may not develop, where we are providing grandfathering clauses. These are me ant ess entially for all new operations that come into being.

Certainl y, I am sure that many, including myself -when I went through these regulations I did a bit of a mental calculation and found myself that I am at odds with the regulations I am about to pass into law, because all too often the practice was to have on a farm -if you recall, to have the cattle come close to where your well was pumping and yo u had the old-fashioned trough. Now, many of those kinds of things would be in contravention, firstly, against

2804 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 the guidelines. It makes sense that we are again worrying about the pollution of ground water sources. To answer the honourable membe r's question, there are grandfathe ring clauses in here for existing operatiom . Ms. Wowchuk: I think that is reasonable. I think it would be impossible to go back and change every operation to come into complia nce with the regulatio ns, but there are some regulations that existing operations will have to foll ow.

I guess what I want to know is how does the minister anticipate making people who are in existing operations and new operations aware of the regulations, and does he anticipate that it is going to require extra staff to implement the regulations? Is there going to be a regular check? Will there be checks on farms as they are establishing themselve s, operations are getting started? The existing ones are there, but I am looking at new operations when they are being established. How will we have assurances that the regulations are being abided by? Mr. Eons: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, there will be a calling on a variety of sources for esse ntially undertaking a pretty su bstantial education program on the farm . Again, within the Department of Agricult ure we have swine specialists, we have other livestock specialist people. We intend to make our ag generalists like our ag representatives pretty well up to date on these regulatiom.

The department does not know this yet, but it is my intention, for instance , to ask particularly in some of the key municipalities to have our ag reps or livestock specialists to actually book 10 or 15 minutes time with the next meeting of the regular municipal council meet ing to sit down and personally go over some of the new regulations, but more importantly , simply to advise the council that these regulations are now in place and that the Department of Agriculture and others are there to help disseminate this information when inquiries come in about them .

We will cenainly use such other organizations like the fo rmal structure of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. In fact, I am asking their executive to come in to visit with me very short lv, again, to kind of fo rmally present them with the fact that these regulations are now in circulation, that they will be sent to all municipa lities, that they should familiarize themselves with them . I would like to also think that within the industry itse lf-we are fortunate that we have growing sophisticated organizatiom . The Manitoba Cattle Producers Association are an active , vibrant organization.

They had a very successful annual meeting just earlier this winter in the north Interlake area, in the Ashern area, well attended. The same thing can be said of the pork and bog producers. They had their ann ual meeting here in Wmnipe g not so long ago. 1brough the agencies that the industry and the producers themselves have with the suppon of dep artmental staff, with every attempt to make this inf orm ation more readily available at municipal offices as well as our ag rep offices, that is the mann er in which we will try to get the information out. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to move on to another area and that is with the cattle indus try, the milk producing ind ustry. We have had letters of concern from some people in the province who have heard that there is a move to increase the production of milk with the use of chemicals, and I have fo rgotten the specific name of the chemical at the present time . I want to know what work, whether any research has been done on that here in the province and whether we are going to see any movement on that here in this province. Mr. Eons: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, the honourable member refers to the BST question in dairy . If the member is not aware , the fe deral government has placed a two-year moratorium on any possibility of its introduction into Manitoba. During that period of time , we will cenainly be availing ourselves of the monitoring of the data that is being collected right now as a result of the introduction of this growth hormone into the American market. There is much concern, you know, that it is quite aside from what it does to the production of

June 1, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2805 milk or inaease in the production of milk is simply also the question of consumer concerns in this regard and the consu mer's reaction to the milk product that is raised , developed and grown under these circumstances. This will and, of course, comes under the aegis of Ag Canada, animal health, and will be determined for us by that fed eral agency at some time. We are not specifically engaged in research.

It would be an unnecessary doubling up of talents and ef forts that are already undergoing in the fe deral jurisdiction, but we certainly will be monitoring and attending and making available to us all, all the information that is forthcoming on the subject matter. But the clock is ticking on that issue for at least the next two years. •

(1600) Ms. Wowchuk: What I was looking for is whether there was any work being done , research, on that particular hormone, on that product, here in Manitoba. But since the minister has indicated that it is under fe deral jurisdiction, I guess we will have to wait to see what further direction we get from the federal government on that. Another issue that has been raised by the cattle producers is the fact that the federal government is allowing additional offshore beef to come into Canada, and that is having an impact on the cattle industry here in Manitoba.

The federal government has raised the level of the amount of beef that can be brought in from offshore into the country, and the cattle producers are concerned that this is going to have a negative impact on them. Has the department done any work on that to research the implications of the additional offshore beef coming into the market and the impacts that that will have on the beef industry here in Manitoba? Mr. Eons: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am certainly aware that, as you would expect , organizations like the Canadian Cattle men's Association and others directly involved in the industry note these kinds of changes and make their protestations, but in the main, there is, particularly within the beef industry, probably a higher level of support for open borde rs, for absolutely free and liberal trade.

That fe eling is held the strongest within the cattle industry despite the fact that they from time to time make their objections as to the amount of offshore beef, particularly if it is, when I say offshore, it is offshore meaning Australia or other so urces . The relationship between the American cattle people and the Canadian cattle people has been a mutually advantageous one, and that is deeply fe lt within the cattle community. I speak person ally.

The presence of an American calf buyer at an auction ring is very welcome to add a little competition to the Ontario calf buyer or the Saskatchewa n or Alberta calf buyer or the Manitoba calf buyer. I have not asked the department to do anything specifically in this regard, although we suspect that, as in all these matters, we look at them under the new-we are all learning to live with the new fine print in the trade obligations that we have entered into under GATI.

We ought not to be giving up anything without getting something or getting consideration in another area, and I think it is in this context that our marketing people , again principally our fe deral people , will be looking at this situation. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the minister talks about pork production and beef production. It is my understa nding that the government provides a grant to the Manitoba Pork Producers or to the Manitoba Pork Association for the promotion of pork sal es.

However, there is no incentive or no grant given to the beef industry for promotion, and this is somet hing that the beef producers indicate that they have asked for in the past and they continue to lobby for. Is there any reason why the government would choose to support the pork industry but has not found it favourable to support the promotion of beef] Mr. Eons: Mr. Acting Deputy Chailperson, st aff advise that the honourable member is correct We do support the marketing of pork hogs through a Canadian pork international organization, and they receive $10,000 worth of assistance from the province.

They, as well, receive additional

2806 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 promotional money from within their various produ cer organizations . We do support a modest amount to the Canadian Beef Export Federation. We have a growing presence. This is a fe deration that presents and promotes Canadian beef in offshore countries and particularly in some of the trade missions to Japan and places like that, and they receive kind of a per capita, I guess, based on our population, of a modest $2,400 from the province of Manitoba.

I am not aware-the honourable member says the beef people in Manitoba have petitioned for greater supp ort in this area . What they have done is, they are looking to the use of some of the funds that have fo nnerly gone into the tripartite support monies, to go into what they loosely define as a development fund. Saskatche wan, Alberta and Man itoba are doing that.

That could be a significant development fund, development of and research in aid of the beef industry, not just in marketi ng, but in animal health research and feed conversions and so forth, but I suspect a lot of it is going to be outright promotion of North American or western beef into the marketpl ace.

In that fund, we have in this year's budget set aside $150 ,000, monies that nonnally would have flowed to the beef industry under our obligations to the tripartite support program, but because they tenninated that program, we left a program that cost us substantially more, in the order of $1. 4 million, in that neighbourhood.

The re quest was, of course, that we should maintain our same level of funding, but I spoke to that directly at their annual meeting, and I think they understood that in these times, it is difficult to kind of park that kind of money while other departments are in need, and what we did do though was put $150 ,000 which is in the budgets, in the Estim ates that are be fore you, for development pwposes for the beef industry. •

(1610) Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson) : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairper son, I want to very brie fly put a few comments on the record, as well as ask a question or two of the minister.

First of all, let me say to the minister that I believe that he and his department have done 3II admirable job this year in promoting agriculture in general , not only through programs that they have initiated in this province, but through actions that they have taken both through the international trade process and the discussion that they have had with Ottawa in regard to this, as well as some of the discussions that are ongoing now to try and do away with some of the what I call trade-distorting measures that are currently being negotia ted interprovincially .

I think it is admirable that the dep artment has taken the position that it has on many of the issues and would encourage it to proceed as quickly as it can to set aside some of these interprovincial trade-dis torting measures and move to a much more open trade relationship with other provinces in this country. I have always had, as you know, Mr. Minister, an intere st in the promotion of our agricultural products, not only in this province or in this country, but internationally as well. I am wondering, Mr.

Minister, if you are considering taking any actions either jointly with other provinces or by yourself and your dep artment to initiate not only research but marketing of either new products or products that we curre ntly produce in this province, such as beef, pork, poultry products, the raw resource products we produ ce.

I am wondering whether you are contemplating utilizing some of the financial resources within your department and redirecting them to encourage the fo nnation of partnerships between the private sector and government to enhance our ability to further process some of the produ cts that we are currently producing, but ma ybe, even more importantly , to try to develop more research or funnel more money into research that will see new products being brought on stream through either the University of Manitoba research department or the Morden research station, the Brandon research station.

I think the market development wing of your dep artment certainly could be involved in some of those areas.

June 1, 1994 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2807 I am wondering, Mr. Minister, whether there has been any action taken or whether you are contemplating taking some action in that regard. Mr. Enos: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairper son, I thank the honourable member for Emerson. I think be broadens the scope of the discussion on our Estimates in a very valuable way.

I think that is very much the function of the department, and I can tell the honourable member that it was just the other morning that I bad the opportunity just to slip out for a little visit to our Soils and Crops Branch, which, as the member will be aware, is housed, is located, in Carman. Nothing special, just an opportunity to visit with staff and some of the specialists and people that we have who are engaged in many of the things that the honourable member makes references to.

I found out, for instance, that we have small but nonetheless kind of interesting and exciting efforts, and taken up by more and more individual producers, not on a big scale , but in the various opportunities that horticulture provides. We have people interested in doing a bit more in a more commercial way with that great native prairie berry, the saskatoon. There was a specialist at Carman that is helping and working with some producers to see whether or not any of these things have an opportunity of flyi ng.

We worry about why all of a sudden we have kind of lost out in our production of buckwheat, which was at a higher level. I was interested to learn, again, from this brief staff meeting that somebody in the department is making it their business to worry about it I think that is entirely appropriate. I think the honourable member comes from that part of Manitoba, which, quite frankly, was a sutprise and a bit of an eye opener to me, when I bad the privilege of touring part of his constituency earlier in the yea r to see to what degree the expansion, for instance, in what we call the "pulse crops" in Manitoba.

To see huge warehouses full of peas and bearis of different varieties, for somebody that bas not been near that aspect of agriculture, it is extremely interesting and, I think, quite exciting . Now that tells me that the department has, in fact, over the years tried to respond to these initiatives and has bad people in place. Whether we have done that in suf ficient capacity, I think, is always open to legitimate questioning.

Of course, I do not make any great deal of-do not bide the fact that I think this department is underfunded, that it requires some more dollars to do some of these things, simply because I think that the returns to the provinces as a whole are not always appreciated by our ever growing urban population, which, by the way, includes our ever growing majority of urban MLAs, of whatever political stripe , that come together and examine these Estimates from time to time. We dedicate so much of our time in this business of governing our province, not just in Manitoba, but in Canada, in bow to distribute wealth.

We do not present enough time, in my opinion, on bow to create wealth, and, of course, nowhere is the creation of wealth more readily evident and apparent than in agriculture. The farmers right now, and some of them are doing it for the second time, I know, because of weather conditions, are putting two bushels of seed in the ground and are going to be harvesting 70 or 80 or maybe even 90 or 100. Somebody that is investing time, effort and knowledge and doing this is creating wealth. I do not create wealth as a politician. Lawyers do not create wealth. They move it around a lot and a lot of it sticks to them.

The only wealth that I will create is when I tum out my four Cbarolais bulls into my cow herd. If 14, 15 months later, they will be a thousand pound or 1,100 pound steer or heifer as a result. That is wealth creation. That is why I think that what the member refers to is that we should be bold, we should be imaginative and we should have the kind of resources that even -like many of these initiatives, they start with very small be ginnings. It means having somebody in the department have some time to correlate the information, do some on-farm visit ing, do some of that research.

You may only get the take-up of two or three or four

2808 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1994 fanners to begin with, but that is bow all of these diversified crops developed. We do, of course, have some very specific challenges that we know of where the commercial opp ortunities alread y exist. They exist in the expamion of our potato industry, for instance, and in a more broadly spread area across the province . We are short of potatoe s in this pro vince, believe it or not. They are a good cash crop, but we have to do certain things. We have to use water judiciously to do that.

Whether or not the h onourable member is going to press me now as to whether or not I will authorize the growing of hemp or cannabis in the province, you know, I might even do that, but I would not want to accused of-w ell, I better stop right there. Mr. Penner: Thank you for the response, Mr. Minister. As you are aware, there are a number of new products being produced in my part of the world, my pa rt of the prov ince . They are saska toons. I have a fellow like Dave Sawatzky, for instance, who is growing five and a half acres of commercial saskatoons . By the way, the crop this spring looks very pro mising.

Similarly, there are a number of small fruit growers in that area, and again, some of these people are looking at ways and meam of adding value to some of those products such as raspberrie s, stra wber rie s, sask atoons, pl ums, crabapp les and others. By the way, we also grow some very good eating app les in that area . But the question that I directed before is more specific. I believe we have a tremendous oppor tunity, Mr.

Minister, in enhancing and encouraging the enhancement of such crops as vegetable crops , whether it be horseradish or other root-type crops that ca n be grown in that southeastern part of the provi nce. Many times we talk about the availability of water as being the key ingredient to either being able to industrialize parts of our more arid parts of the province and/or use water for irrigation, and we have a part of the province I believe in southeast Manitoba that bas that ingredient, that bas more water, an abundance of water, and probably some of the best quality of water found anywhere in North America. •

(1620) It is, I believe , imperative that we encourage some of the producers in that area to start thinking of diversifying their operations beyond the grain operations and/or livestock operations into vegetable production or small fruit pro duction or those kinds of things. I think there is a tremendous oppo rtunity in that southeast part of the province not only for potato production but certainly vegetable production. It would appear that your department would be well positioned to cause that diversification to happen if they took some steps. I am wondering, Mr.

Minister, whether you are encouraging your department through-and it does not take a huge amount of money to do these kinds of things-discussions with people like Wally Happycbuk at Vita who is an excellent ag rep and who bas done marvels and wonders in that area to cause alfalfa to now be grown commercially in that area. There is even an operat ion that is looking at cubing and pelletizing alfalfa for the export market in that area. That is just one example as to what a person in that area can do if are they given the encouragemen t to cause some of this diversifi cation to happen.

I think we should utilize the resources that we have within your dep artment. I believe that you have within your department some of the best people currently available to do that, and given a bit of additional resources could certainly see quite a cause and change in some of that area.

I would suspect that not only would you see watermelons grown commercially as they are in the Altona area now and muskmelons commercially grown as they are in Altona in that southeast area, as well as some of the other crops that we described such as asparagus or carrots or cauliflower, or any one of those crops could very, very easily be very commercially grown in that area, if a bit of that encouragement was there. So I am wondering, Mr. Minister, whether you are looking at, or whether you are having those

June 1, 1994 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2809 kinds of discussions with your department that would see that kind of development being encouraged. Mr. Enos: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, let me in the first instance say that I think it is valuable for the department to bear these kinds of comments at a committee bearing such as this when their Estimates are being examined.

I think the challenge for any minister, and that happens to be me at this particular time, is to do precisely what the member suggests, that we really examine every difficulty with the reso urces that we have , and, are they in fact being focused and directed in as an imaginative way as possible .

I think one of the legitimate questions that I keep asking of the department, and we as members of this committee have every reason to ask of the dep artment, is the acknowledgement that we have a level or strata of what I call the very su ccessful commercial farming operations that require less and less of the department's day-to-day attention, but are we in fact still addressing , atttibuting a substantial portion of our department 's efforts to that area. This is a bard question for the professional staff in the department to address as well.

I will ask them to not be offended by anything I say because on the one band professional staff, along with being there to help the start-up farmer and help the problem farmer, to help everybody else, they like to be associated with the successful and most driving and energetic aggressi ve sector in that top 20 percent range of our farm operations.

I am not suggesting that they will not continue to have that association, but within the departmental budgets are we, without necessarily going for extra dollars, looking at, as the member says, not with big dollars , but with focused and individual staff decisions here and there finding the necessary time to look at some of these new and different opportunities that exist.

I would like to suggest to the honourable member for his evening reading, once be gets past that fine picture of the minister himself on the front page and that of the deputy, that there are some of these thoughts expressed in this Vision document of where we see the department turning most of its attention to. We certainly talk about the kinds of things the member bas mentioned, and I challenge the department to constantly keep this in their minds, particularly, as we look at those resources that are available to us. I know that agriculture continues to change.

We have bad over the last number years, several decades now, a growing horse population in the province , for instance, in the pleasure riding. Some people sometimes forget, there are just many more horses. Many of the people that we welcome into rural Manitoba on small acreages come to rural Manitoba because they can keep a horse or two for their riding ple asure or just, you know , whatever-along with the kind of existing racing industry that we have and along with, of course, the very significant PMU industry that we have . But we have not bad a horse specialist within the department, and I have asked Dr.

Taylor to address that issue particularly. I think staff need to be encouraged, particularly management of the department need to be encouraged in the manner that the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) is doing. I do not fault them when they are somewhat reluctant in these budget times to say, well, gee, can we allocate these doll ars for sa skatoons or for horticulture or something like . They represent only a small wedge in the overall clientele that we service .

Yet I would like to think, within reason, and not to take things out of balance, I would like to cballenge our department that we build into it the profess ional capacity that we can respond to inquiries of the kind that the member mentions, that we say to ourselves that, as in all matters of research, the dollars and the results do not flow immediately, but if there is sufficient justification to devote some time to a specialty crop that may be quite untraditional for Manitoba. Nonethe less, we should be

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-38a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 38a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2ea7f556c4f9601cfef8f4d8cdab12651fd91f8f

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