Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, JUNE 13, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 50

June 13, 1975 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 2230 PRESENTING PETITIONS: NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. HON. T. DOYLE, Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation: Mr.

Speaker, I have here a petition from the Community Council of Ferryland, the prayer of which reads as follows; that the fishing industry of Ferryland is vital to the social and economic existence of its people; that at present in Ferryland there is a severe lack of suitable premises for the fishermen of Ferryland to satisfactorily process fish in a marketable condition; that at present in Ferryland there is a shortage of space where fishing gear can be stored and repaired 1and that for the very existence of the fishery there a community stage is of vital importance. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition which is signed by 238 residents of the Community of Ferryland, my district, about two-thirds of the voters in that community. In supporting the petition, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that in the report of the Select Committee on the Inshore Fishery, presented in this House last week, there is a

section on shore facilities which very briefly states that the inadequacy, the woeful state or the total absence of facilities for the landing, handling or holding of fish at some landing points was the subject of complaints by many fishermen. Mr. Speaker, I, as I said, support this petition wholeheartedly and would place it on the table of the House and ask it be referred to the department to which it applies. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. E" ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, those of us on this side of the Bouse would like to join in supporting the petition.

We think it is an entirely reasonable request. The Southern Shore is one of the premier fishing areas of this Province. It always has been, hopefully and almost certainly will be. The fishermen along that shore, Sir, largely are inshore fishermen. I guess it is one of the strongholds of the traditional inshore fishery, the fishery which twenty years ago existed everywhere 6610

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2230 NM - 2 in Newfoundland and now it exists only in certain portions ~f the Provint:e, it st.ill .suT'Vives and flourishes along the Southern Shore. The request for these facilities,the member tells us,is justified and from our own knowledge I think the request is eminen·tly so. I should no.t think the amounts of money involved are overly larp,e and in view of the exceptionally generous assistance which the Regional Economic Expansion Depar~t 6611

June 13, 1975 Tape 2231 IB-1 they are putting into the provision of fisheries facilities in thfs Province this year to the order of $6 million or $7 million, I would think that surely something could be done for the fishermen of Ferryland. I am not suggesting that DREE should do it. DRF.E cannot do everything. In any event if we are going to be a Province ar>d have our own government we have got to assume some responsibilities on our own. What I am saying, "fr. Speaker, is I think the Minister of Pecreat:lon is clearly on th~ spot. He is in the cabinet.

J think it is up to him to ensure that the few thousand dollarsirelatively speaking,that are necessary to provide these facilities this year he provided. I think DRFE have done their share ry putting in a number of millions. That has freed up surely some provincial money that otherwise would h,we had to go on the projects that DREF. has funded. I can think of no acceptable, rational reason why the fishermen of Ferryland, the petitioners, should not see the prayer of their petition granted this year. MR. SPEAKER: The honourahle Member for Rell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of forty-two fishermen of Fortune Harbour, Cottrell's Cove and Moore's Cove,no relation to the, no connection with the honourable the Premier. The prayer of this petition, ~r. Speaker, is that these fishermen say that they are in desperate need of some kind of income to feed themselves and their families. Right now, they say, the only way they can describe the situation there in their connnunities is a complete disaster area. They ' . llllderline disaster area, Sir. They have lost many of their lobster traps.

They cannot put out any fishing gear in the water due to the worst ice conditions that they have ever known. They have no income, Mr. Speaker, of any kind for the last several weeks. They go on to say that if some k:1.nd of assistance by the government does not soon come forward, they cannot see how they can survive under such drastic conditions. The situation along the Northeast Coast, Mr. Speaker, is absolutely desperate.

It is a drastic situatinn. 'l'he 'Minister of Fisheries, Sir, as Your Honour probably knows, because T believe these cononunities are in Your Honour's own district - unfortnoatel'.f Your Ron our is not in a position to support the pe ti t:1 on. Rut, T am snre if Your Honour was that he would give this petition his wholeheartEd support 6612

June 13, 1n75 Tape 2231 IB-2 and the Minister of Fisheries did undertake, Sir, did make a cOllllllitment to the fishermen in the Notre name Ray area that he would carry out a survey an~ then determine what action if any the government could talce. I want to know now, Sir, if the report has been submitted to the Minister of Fisheries . I also did a little investigating myself and discovered that no representation up to this moment has been made to the Government of Canada in connection with this matter. So, Mr.

Spealcer, I wholeheartedly support the prayer of this petition, Sir, and I hope that the government the Minister of Fisheries will not dilly-dally, not delay one moment longer in deciding what his government is going to do to help the fishermen in the Notre name Bay area who have lost income and lost lobster pots and lost gear as a result of the worst ice conditions that they have ever known in their whole history. Give us a hit of support on that ~ow. MP.. SPEAKER: The honourable ~inister of Fisheries. HON. J.C. CROSRIF. (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr.

Speaker, I think I spoke a~out this last week and said that a survey was underway and that when we had accurate information, we would be deciding what to do,if anything or anything could he done about this situation. I described the losses that we estimate there ~~ere of lobster pots along that area, and on the Port au Port Peninsula. When I have any further information, I will certainly provide it to the House. All I can say is that this matter is being looked into.

There :fs no representat:f .on being made to the Government of Canada yet because until t.e know exactly what the damage is, we can hardly make a re!)resent.iition to them. In addition to ~·hich of course the only provision 11nder which they would partake in any programme would be a disaster over a ~idespread area of the Province such they participated in last year. That will he <l:lsc11ssed with them once I have a final report on the damage. ~•R. SPEAl<EP: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. RORE~TS: ~r.

Speaker, if I may say a word or two in support of that petition: I think my colleague, the gentleman from Bell Island, has stated the prayer of the petition and has stated our position on it. But, let me say a word with respect to the Minister of Fisheries attitude as he has just outlinec:1 it to us. The disaster on the Northeast Coast, Sir, is far larger than a matter 6613

June 13, 1975 Tape 2231 IB-1 of some lobster pots, as serious as the lobster pots sjtuatjon is. The honourable gentleman yesterday winged his way in from Edinburgh and I assume 6614

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2232 Page 1 - mw came via Gander and if it was at all a fine day he would have been able to see what mnounts to an ice blockade which I am told stretches from about Cape Freels in the south to Cape Norman and Cape Bauld on the northern tip of the Northern Peninsula. I am told, Sir, that effectively no fisherman along the Northeast Coast has been able to get fishing this year to this date. Normally by now in every part of the Northeast Coast the fishery would be underway. But as far as I can determine the fishery has not been able to get underway, and the reason for it is ice.

Now I am not going to blame this government or any other government for sending the ice. Weather, as I have always, is federal. But, Sir, the fishermen along that coast have no incOtlle, they have no means to earn an income, and they cannot earn an income until they can get fishing. I think it is the role of the government of this Province, Sir. We have asked a number of questions. We have made a number of requests here in the House all to no avail but I tb;lnk, Mr.

Speaker, that it is the role of the government of this Provillce to take those steps which are appropriate and necessary to get those men compensation. They are facing a disaster, Sir, in an economic sense if no other. Most of them had no income at all since their unemployment insurance benefits expired, in some cases in mid-March. They have had no income, Sir. They have no :Immediate prospect of obtaining an income. June 13, Sir, is the period when the fishery should be well underway along the Northeast Coast. It is not.

So I would say to the minister that once he has settled down from his jaunting hither and yon - and I am not denigrating his attendance at Edinburgh, apparently he achieved nothing but still, you know, it was forth the effort to go. That matter is important too - But I would urge him to put some attention on this. The fishermen expect some attention and the fishermen expect some help. And, Mr. Speaker, they deserve it. 6615

June 13, 1975 Tape no, 2232 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? The Hon. Member for St. George I s. MB.. DUNPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of thirty-eight farmers in Western Newfoundland in the district of St. George's. The prayer of the petition: We, the undersigned, members of the Western Farmers Prddacers Co-operative request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to match the subsidy given by the federal government on potatoes as of April 1, 1975.

Many groups in this Province that have been fortunate enough to have powerful tmions behind them have received substantial increases for their goods and services, I might also note here that included in that would be federal gover1D11ent members I salaries. It is their vi.ah that I quote to you a f- increases they have bad over the past two years. Of course, these increases are not the type that were desirous or of any help to them. The cost of fertilizer over the past two years has risen to eighty per cent. The co•t of 1.Daecticides is up to one hundred per cent, New fara equipment is up eighteen per cent.

The coat of fuels is up ninety per cent, Labour is up lhirty to thirty-five per cent. The coat of general farm maintenance, maintenance of equipment is up one hundred per cent. Hay seed is up sixty per cent. Farm fencing and equipment is up fifty per cent. Twines and shipping containers are up sixty-five per cent, Farm buildings are up forty per cent. 6616

June l], 1975 Tape no. 2233 Page 1 --11.w And the price paid to farmers for potatoes is down 200 per cent. In light of the above figures the farmers feel that they are justified in requesting the provincial government to matching the eubsidy given by the federal government April 1, 1975. I was just in my district recently, and I visited with the farmers in the Heatherton - Highland area. and I did not feel too good coming away from there. Presently there is approximately 26.000 bags of potatoes that have not moved.

The moving of these potatoes is very slow, and it looks as though in due course these potatoes will have to be dumped. As a matter of fact there is some on the warehouse premises there now, away from the farm storage, that have deteriorated and had to be dumped. Nov this is a very sad state of affairs in our Province particularly when we pay so much attention to other resources and so little to this one.

I think it would be in order that the farmers get some assistance from the provincial government and enable these farmers to go back putting in their crop again this year because if they do not get this assistance some of them may not be able to do so, because this situation has them near ruin. Farming in Newfoundland has not gotten the encouragement it deserves, and I think a step in the right direction would be to see that they do receive the subsidy to bail them out at this time, because it is a very bad situation. Mr.

Speaker, I hope this will reach the proper people within the Department of Agriculture and that it will be given serious consideration, very serious consideration, and I look forward to getting some favourable news back very, very shortly because time is of the essence. I will place this upon the table of the House and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The Ron. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS: ( Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.) Mr.

Speaker, perhaps a few words concerning the problem facing the potato farmers particularly in Newfoundland might be worthwhile. After many representations this past Winter and Spring to the federal authorities I have run into the difficulty with which our potato farmers were faced. It was finally 6617

Jun.e 13, 1975 Tape no, 2223 agreed by the federal authorities that a subsidy would be made available and we had a lit.tle difficulty in getting tbe subsidy 2 - ·IW to apply to Newfoundland. First of all it was designed for P.E.I. and New Bnmswick where the vast ~jority of the potatoes, of course, in Eastern Canada are pToduced. We finally did get the federal government to agTee to $1.67 peT hundTedweight subsidy which woTks out to roughly $. 85 foT a fifty pound sack.

We have also put on a publicity cmnpaign that ran foT a couple of months outlining the difficulties of the farmen and appealing to the Newfoundland comrumer, the Newfoundland hQus:ewife, to recognize this problem. And because of the fact tbat the Newfoundland pToduct was of high quality we encouraged people to buy them and cons11111e them. There were three problem areas, really. One :in Pasadena. one in the Musgrave Town and Lethbridge area and anotheT cm the

section of the :West Coast to which my honourable friend Tefers. 6618

J11ne 11 , 1075 Tape 2234 (morning) IB-1 T have heen keepinp, -fn daily touch with it for - not naily touch, but •crr.1.- I y touc-h f,:,r this p11st t,rn c,r three months. The great majority, in f;ict , T think it is almost safr- to say that the problem in Pasadena is .i 11st ah out solved. The problem f.n ~usgravetown-Lethbridge area is just ahout solved and that the potatoes have been movinr,. nut the farmers 1111 fortunately had to rerluce the:! r prices.

I do not know how far they d:ld l'J', but I suspPct that they rE'ducecl their prices to the extent of the ff'rlPral snhsfrly which me/'lns tliat they could stabilize the prices at around $].SO I heUt've, $3.85, the last I saw them at. I unclrrstancl that the farmers on the- West Coast have not been so fortun;,tp in mov:lnp- thri r pot;itoes.

Possibly one of the reasons is that the ••·holesale outl.e>ts on the West CN1st have not been resnond:lng apparently tr, tht' reCJuPsts which WP have m;icle, and that the wholesalPrs of course ont rrsnond inr, l>y huying not;,tc,es from the farmers l!lnd making Na-wfcnmdlancl potatOPs av;,il;,hle thrc,up;h the ret;i11 outlets, then of COltrse any pnh .lidty c ;impair;n can only fail. I can certainly appreciate the prnh]Pms that t.he hnnourahle member has.

When he says that there has not hr!'n "nough done for farmers, T suppose that could be said for any group ,:,f neorle 1n Newfo1mdland nr for that matter in Canada or anywhere in the ,-•or Id. But. when we- look at all of the programmes wh:l.ch are in place to ;assist f;irme>rs in Newfoundland, I think everybody will agree that a great dral has hePn done. The new Capital Assistance Programme is in place, which is of great benefit to the farmers. The loan board, the Farm Lnan lloarrl, has hpen improved.

Just a couple of months ap;o we announced the settin p; up of rP.gfonal Pqufpment hanks on the Wrst Coast., Central Newfound l;ind, and nn the f.ast Coast. We- have increased Land Clearing r.r;ints. Th e-rr is a r;reat c1eal which has been done, but he~ause of thf' tremendo11s overproductinn in the States ancl in Prince f.dward IsJ,,nd and !l!e-w Brunswick last year, the m;irkets have been flooded w:lth rotatoes. Th .is is whert' the problem derives from.

T can asRure the hc,nourahle member that I will take another look .at it just Hs scion as we receive this petition. ~-'R. ,;p r,:,\K~'.1' : The honourahle Leader of the Opposition. 1-'_R . RO!lf1lTS : t-'r. Speaker, the presentation of the honoura1'le gentleman from ,;r. r.eor gt>'s in itself ,,,ouln have been enough to bring me to my feet 6619

June 13, 1975 Tape 2234 (morning) IB-2 to support the petition which he presented so eloquently anrl with such detail and such knowledge. But, even if it was not for his remarks I would have wanted to say a word or two on the merits of the matter.

Even if that was not sufficient, Sir, - and I do not know if this is connected or not with the honourable gentleman's visit which he related to us, but I have a letter here from the secretary of the Western Farmers Producers Co-operative. 11 We the members of the Western Farmers Producers Co-operative respectfully request your party's support for our petition for a provincial govenment subsidy on potatoes to match that granted by the Government of Canada as of April 1, 1975.

This petition is being presented by our member shortly. 11 That in itself, Sir, if it were not for those other two facts, would have ~een enough to bring me to my feet on this occasion.

Let me state quite briefly, Sir, because my friend and colleague, the gentleman from Bonavista North who speaks for us on agricultural matters may well wish to say a word or two fn detail, but let me say that I think the case is well made for assistance to the potatoe farmers, the West Coast farmers and the ones in the Musgravetown-Lethbridge area and for that matter, if it is relevant, the ones in the North West River in behind Ga,nho. The farmers throughout Newfo1JI1dland, the potatoe farmers have come on a very hard time through no fault of their own but through the operation of market forces.

You know, this is not the place, Mr. Speaker, to debate the philosophy or the practice of marketing boards because that is a two~ edged sword. But suffice it to say,Sir, that if anybody doubtec1 what could happen to a small local industry, small in terms of overall consumption, they need only look at what has happened to the potatoe industry in Newfo1JI1dland this past year because I understand that the real root of the problem is the fact that Prince Edward Island potatoes are coming in at, you know, rock bottom prices. They are fn effect just dumping them.

If it were another country dumping them into Canada, they would not be allowed to do it because of the International Agreement on Trade and tariffs. But, of course, because we cannot have harriers on inter-provincial trade.nor should we, they can do it to Newfoundland. We have an unprotected 6620

June 13, l'l75 Tape 2234 (morning) industrv and one which is very much at the mercy of economic forces and the economic forces this year have operated with ruthless effect and the result of that will be unless there is additional assistance made 6621 IB-3

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2235 NM - l MR. ROBERTS: available to farmers, as I understand the situation very few of them are going to be able to plant this year because very few of them have been able to afford to get into the planting of potatoes this year. And if we are every going to have an agricultural industry in this Province we are going to have to support it and to make it possible for it to ~row, Sir. The experts have looked at it over the years and I think they have apreed that at least in the root crops, potatoes, turnips, that type of crop, we can be much closer to self supporting.

Successive generations of agricultural ministers have hoisted that standard to the flagpole and saluted it. The only problem is, Sir, apparently whatever has been done is not enou~h. We are today in the situation where our 11otato industry is in a very parlous state indeed. So I support the petition. I think the honourable gentleman presented it well and that in itself would lead me to do it.

If that did not the merit of the petiti~n would and then finally,as I have said• the secretary of the group• the Producers Co-op 1orote me ar.d made a point of asking us to support us and for that reason too, Sir, I am happy to say a word or two in support. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Port de Grave. MR. WILSON: I too as a member of a district would Hke to add support to this petition so ably presented to this House.

In the District of Port de Grave which I represent there are also small farmers and they have the same problems and surely if this government can do anythin~ to help out farmers as well as fishermen and what not, surely we would all lend our support to it. And I do not see any reason why our own farmers are not presented wisely to attend to raise crops and to encourage them as well as they are on the ?-<ainland.

I think there is something wrong with our Province that we have to import every potato we eat, supposing we have to go on record to have the people even buy our own produce without importing it and I think where people and farmers are willing to work, I think we should stand by them and help them the best we know and the best we can. I thank you. 6622

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2235 NM - 2 MR. SPF.AKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista. HR. TUO~S: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition so ably presented by the ~ember for St. GeorFes. This petition, Mr. Speaker, to me i~ of preat importance because if the prayer of this petition is not answered, and by answering it I mean within a very limited period of time, we are goinp, to have a very serious situation, especialJy arnonj!' the Western farmers of Newfoundland.

I understand that the farmers in Central and Eastern Newfoundland are well ahead in planting this year and that they have found sufficient funds to undertake this project. The situation in Newfoundland for the past six months in the potato industry has been a very serious one, one of the most serious that we have witnessed for some time.

This of course is being caused by a tremendous c~op in Eastern Canada, specifically New Brunswick and P.E.I.,and in the State of Maine and because of this over-abundance of crop,and of course we also had a tremendous increase in the acreage planted in Eastern Canada last year, this has caused prices of potatoes to drop to rock bottom and as a matter of fact they have been sold for way less than they can be produced.

And while I congratulate the federal authorities, the Federal Department of Agriculture on implementing a subsidy of $1.67 per hundred weight, this was indeed a good gesture on the part of the federal government and I am sure helped many farmers in Eastern Canada, however, it was not the answer as far as the Newfoundland farmer is concerned - MR. NEARY: He had to sell the potatoes first. MR. THOMS: - because the stipulation was that the potatoes had to be sold as Canada number one before this subsidy could be collected and Mr.

Speaker, what happened in P.E.I. was that the fanrersbag~ed their potatoes and sold them for one cent per seventy-five pound bag and this of course undercut every price or any price in Eastern Canada,whereby many of the farmers in P. E. I. sold their potatoes, the potatoes of the f armers in Newfoundland stayed in storage. Some of them in storage at the present time are reaching the point where 6623

June 13, 1975 Tape 2236 (morning) IB-1 breakdowns in potatoes are becoming common. Of course because of the tremendous amount of volume in storage at the present time, I would predict that very soon you are going to have a tremendous amount of these potatoes dumped this year. The prayer of the petitf.on - MR. NEARY: Give them to the Minister of Social Services. MR. THOMS: suggests that the provincial government also implement a subsidy. I certainly agree with this.

I believe the provincial government should become involved financially here and help out our farmers who are at the present time at the verge of bankruptcy. '!"any of them cannot find the funds to plant this year. This in itself is going to cut down the already small production which we do have in Newfoundland because Newfoundland at the present time in 1974 imported approximately ninety per cent of its consumption of potatoes. I believe that this should be reversed. It can be if we have a proper farm programme implemented in Newfoundlartd. Mr. Speaker, I sincerely support this petition.

I trust that the provincial government will see fit to implement a subsidy, not necessarily on the basis that the federal subsidy was implemented because if it is, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it will be as effective in Newfoundland as a subsidy should be. I trust that the Minister of Finance, Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and his colleagues will see fit to implement such a subsidy within the very near future because, Mr. Speaker, here time is of the essence. HR. NEARY: They should buy the potatoes. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? The honourable Member for St. George's. MR. DUNPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present this petition on behalf of all of the residents of the comnunity of Black ruck in the district of St. George's. The prayer of the petition says,

whereas there has been a large increase in heavy vehicular traffic on route 460, the district of St. George's,and

whereas there has been,recently been a large increase in the number of children living alaiytside the highway in the Black Duck area, and

whereas the Black Duck area caters to a large number of tourists and

whereas there were three fatalities, three, Your Honour, and a number of injuries as a result of traffic accidents in the Black Duck area during 1974, we the residents of Black Duck, St. C.eorge's district do hereby request of our member to present this argent petition to the House 6624

June 13, 1975 Tape 2236 (morning) IB-2 of Assembly asking that an immediate order be passed directing that a thirty miles per hour speed limit zone be placed into effect on route 4/iO. That is thP route that goes from the Trans-Canada Highway through Tilack nuck into StPphenville Crossing.

Also to include the side road known as the Loop to a point approximately onp-half mile East of Harrys River Bridge on route 460, and that signs be posted immediately to this effect and that in addition a speed limit of twenty miles per hour be immediately posted on the side gravel roads known as the Loop and farm roads which travel through portions of the community of Rlack Duck. Your Honour, this is a very serious petition. It deserves by the Department of Highways serious consideration.

I may point out that on past occasions I have presented to that department similar petitions 13skinr. for the reduction of speed limit and to date no action has been taken in that direction,which in my estimation is a very high lack of responsibility on behalf of that department. Unfortunately the Minister of that department is not present in the Rouse today, but hopefully he wi 11 soon get the message and see that something is done in regard to these other requests, and in particular this petition on behalf of the citizens of Black Duck.

Now, it is a very serious matter when the people have to implore their member to present this petition. They do not have to implore. It is a pleasure and I support it. But, on the other hand

whereas the member has to implore the department to take action and action is not taken. I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I will be following this particular one through tn make sure that it does go through. I am not at all happy with other requests, and I expect immediate action on this particular request on behalf of these people because it is no joking matter when peonle are being run down on the highways through too high speed limits in a conp,ested community where there are many children and people moving to and fro.

This has to be looked at in a very serious light and some very serious action taken.Immediately upon receipt, the action should he initiated. I place this upon the table of the House. It should get there as soon as possible and action to be received as soon as possible. Thank you. 6625

June 13, 1975 Tape 2236 (morning) 18-3 MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Mem,ber for llell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker (excuse me), it is obvious, Sir, that the Member for St, George's and the people who he represent, who sent him here as an elected member of the Rouse of Assembly have very, very strong views on this matter of reducing the speed limit in the· Black nuck area and in the Loop Road area and on some of the farm roads in the member's district, From what I can gather from the member's remarks, Sir, it is a very emotional issu, and one that: should be dealt with without further delay.

Anybody who has travelled in that area, Sir, knows the hazards of some of the roads in that area. They are narrow in some cases. There are a lot of turns in some of the roads. Only re.cen tly I drove through the honourable member's district. Unfortunately be was not there to greet me. But this is the thing that struck me, Sir, about some of these roads. After the Spring thaw, Sir, there were a lot of bumps in the road too, I think the member will agree, more than I have seen in probably any other of the paved roads in the area. It is a very reasonable request, Sir.

As I say the member has very strong feelings on the matter when he strongly 6626

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2237 Page l - mw condemned the minister and the department for not takin~ the action that he asked before. If the member becomes further frustrated I would suggest that he might consider moving his seat over on this aide of the House if he cannot get the required action from the minister. But I am sure that his emotionally charged request this morning will be heard by the Minister of Transportation and Communications because after all, Mr. Speaker, this is not going to cost the Provincial Treasury one penny. They already have the signs made over in the highways depot.

It is only a matter of getting somebody to stick up the signs and changing the speeding regulations in that area, It will not cost the public treasury one cent. It is a reasonable request, Sir, and one that should be granted without further delay. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon, Minister of Fisheries. HON. J. C. CROSBIE (Minister of Fisheries) : Mr.

Speak.er, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Reversion To The Province Of Certain Mineral Lands In Labrador," I am speaking on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. HON. G. OTTENHEIMEll (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I shall on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance, HON. H. R. V, EARLE ~Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I undertook to get some answers to questions asked me by the Opposition, As I recall the first question was if the foraer Comptroller and Deputy Minister of Finance was paid anything when he seve:fed his connection with the p,overnment. Yes, he was paid ten months severance pay which is not unsual in a person of that standing and that position, Actually his severance pay for ten months 811lounted to $29,900. MR. NEARY: Resign! 6621

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2237 Page 2 - DlW MB.. SPEAKER.: Order, please: HB.. EARLE: The deputy ministers who were retired on pension before their pension was due are being -paid full salary at present. They are as follows: Mr. Fred Gover A Deputy Minister of Mine11, who retired on full •alary effective December 4. 1972, He will be placed on pension June 1, 1976. Mr, Eric Gosae,who was Deputy Killiat .er of Fisheries,ia being paid full salary. He will come on peaaion as of Novmber 1, 1977. Kr. Jobn Cochrane is also in the ••e position. He retired on December 4 • 1972 and he will come on peaion on Hay 1 • 1976. Mr. 6628

June 13, 1q75 Tape 2238 (morning) IB-1 David l .. Butler, Deputy "inister of T.ahrarlor Affairs, he retired on full pension, December 4, 1072 and will come on pension- on full salary I am sorry, December 4, 1g72 and will come on pension September 1, 1974. There are no changes nor are there to be any changes in the salaries prior to the date of pensionability. _l"R. ROBF.RTS: noes that mean they are drawing the salaries that they drew at the time - m-. F.ARLF.: At the time they retired, yes. There are to be no changes in these salaries.

Concerning the other questions yesterday as to the legal representatives in bond issues, I inadvertently gave a wrong answer for which I a-pologize to the House. But, the practice of government is that it employs no legal counsellors in 1:onrl issues except in one case. That is in the case of the market of New York where the situation is so complex that we have been employing for some time now the firm of ~udge, Rose, Guthrie and Alexander who are New York attorneys. MR. ROBERTS: Mudge, Rose and 1-fitchell MR. EARLE: These are the - this is the only law firm to whom the government pays any retainer.

In the case which I mentioned yesterday, they as usual were retained by the underwriters and of course the settlement of fees is between the UI1derwr-J ters and themselves. So, I am not familar with what the amount was. Incidentally as there is some publicity in the paper th1s morninp,, I should say that as my son happened to be a member of that firm he did no work on the issue, received no fee or collDllission of any sort. ORAT. QUESTIONS: MP.. SPF.AKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. ~- NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, in relation to the answer just given by the }f:fnister of Finance, I won<ler if the 'M'inister of Finance could inform the Rouse if he and the }1ember for St. John's South before he became Minister of Real th made a trip tn Paris i.n connection with that bond issue or any other bond issue or any other business on behalf of the government? MR. F.ARLE: Yes, }fr. Speaker. It is customary, in fact it is necessary that the Minister of Finance goes to sign the necessary documents of all these bond issues. Now, I was in Paris for that particular issue. The 6629 / ..:

June 13, 1975 Tape 223?. (morning) IB-2 honourable member referred to was there on hehalf of his firm who as I said represented the underwriters. There may have heen other lawyers present I but.I did not recognize them. MR. ROBERTS: MR. EARLE: No. MR. HICKMAN: Were there other Newfoundland lawyers present? Yes there was. MR. EARLE: Oh, yes, I am sorry. Vince McCarthy was there from the Department of Justice. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the minister indicate to the House whether the Memher for St. John's South pai<l his own expenses or if they were charged on the public treasury? MR.

EARLE: Of course he paid his own expenses,as far as I know. I have seen no travel imprest or anything go through for him • ...!"fR.. ROBERTS: ••••• Mr.Speaker, a further supplementary which I suspect the honourable gentleman will wish to take as notice.

Would he get for the House and make public, Sir, the following information in connection with the bond issue in Paris: the amount of the bond issue, the interest rate, the commission and the net amotDlt drawn by the government of the Province as representing the proceeds of the bond issue,and include in that any expenses or fees which the government of the Province may have paid directly or indirectly in connection with the bond issue. Of course, as the minister knows in these bond issues we draw, we, the Province, draw a net amotn1t.

There is subtracted from that, from the amotn1t raised, the expenses which are paid by the underwriters in connection with the issue. MR. CROSBIE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: a speech. 'MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Order, please! It is note question. The honourable gentleman is making Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, Sir, I submit that is a perfectly improper point of order. The honourable Minister of Fisheries hes been away from the House recently, and has obviously forgotten the rules of order. I was merely attempting to make sure that the Minister of Finance understood the question.

In view of the Minister of Finance's willingness to help,as he hes demonstrated, I think it is only right and proper that we should try to help him. It is a very detaflerl question. 6630

June 13, 1975 Tape 2238 (monring) proper that we should try to help him. It is a verv detailed question. I think the minister will have to take it as notice. If he wishes, I would be happy to see him outside the Rouse and go through it in detail with him. 6631 IB-3

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2239 Page 1 - mw Mil. SPEAKER: Order, please! The question was detailed but the Chair feels, too! that the Hon. Leader of the Opposition was almost getting involved in a debate in asking a question which was certainly longer than the Chair feels necessary. The Hon. Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, if the Hon. Leader of the Opposition read the papers most of the particulars he asked for have already been given. MR. ROBERTS: No, not the one - MR. EARLE: The bond issue was sold at nine and a half per cent coupon and $20 million was the principal amount. MR. ROBERTS: Eight years.

MR • . EARLE: And fortunately it sold at par which meant that it sold at one hundred. So as far as the charges by the underwriters are concerned I do not have these at my finger tips. Of course, I can get them. MR. ROBUl'.S: Hr. Speaker, a further supplementary. I thank the honourable gentleman. I like the term of it vhich I believe vas eight years and, of course, the real question is what is the net drav down because ve have to pay back $20 ail.lion, and I want to mov sactly how much we drewt We did not draw $20 millions. MR • . EARLE: I have not got that information. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Hon.

Member for Bell Island. Mil. NEAJI.Y: Hr. Speak.er• I would like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Public Worka whoever he might be, Sir, and I would like to ask the Acting Hillister to tell the House what action has been taken on charges made this week during meetings between the government, between the Acting Minister and representatives of the government, and the Bricklayers Union, charges that vere made that material and labour at the Health Science Complex is being diverted for use on personal projects, 6632

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2239 Page 2 - mw building homes, putting basements in private homes of individuals who are management members,and burying dogs of members of management either on the site now or formerly on the site of the Health Science Complex? HR. SPEAKER: The Chair understands that the Acting Minister of Public Services is the Minister of Transportation and C011111unications who is not in his seat today. The Chair could be corrected on that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is no Acting Minister. Well, Mr. Speaker, I will wait until the minister comes back to his seat. HR.

ROBERTS: Perhaps the Minister of Justice , then could possibly help. This is very serious. HR. NEARY: Does the Minister of Justice knov anything about that matter? MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: I never heard of it. Never heard of it. You will hear a great deal more. Well we will hear about it when the Minister of Transportation gets back on Monday. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Af£airs and Housing, Sir.

Woul4 the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing tell us, give us an update, a progress report now on the grievance, the objections made to the minister and to the government by the people who live in government owned houses and over at the Wallace Place, Newtown Road, Whiteway Street, Hoyles Avenue and Graham Street who thought that · they were paying off their houses when they were paying the rent and who are now objecting to the prices set on these houses, the purchase of these houses? MR. SPEAKER: MR, PECKFORD: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr.

Speaker, in several meetings held by people who rented these houses on Whiteway Street - Hoyles . .A:w-enue area,several meetings that were held from 1953 to 1972 with the honourable, the then Premier, Mr. Smallwood and with Mr. Vardy,who was responsible for the Housing Corporation, they were continually told verbally by those people that - 6633

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2239 Page 3 MR. ROBERTS: What? MR. PECKFORD: Okay. - they were continuously told by these people that the agreement was a rental purchase one. There was nothing legally on paper to indicate that it was. All the documents relating to that project end the building of those houses indicated that they were going in there to rent them and at some point in the future they would have the opportunity or the option to buy them. There was no mention in any of the doctDDents of a rental purchase agreement.

When the people came to me two or three months ago and gave me their story they had no legal case from the advice that was given to me.~ut because they seemed to have a moral case I pursued the matter and sent a proposal to the CMHC head office in Ottawa and asked for a reconsideration of their request indicating that there be some formula divised whereby if you are in there for twenty years the aJDOunt your house would cost would be reduced by a certain amount and your retainer wo11ld be so much lees and so on, to give them an opportunity to reduce the cost of the houses so that they would be in a better position to buy them and to purchase them.

The CMBC board in Ottawa turned down the proposal that I put to them, flatly and indicated that they would not do it and so the position now is simply that if the people want to buy those houses they have to buy them for the cost that they have been told that the Housing Corporation is selling them for. That is where it stands right now, 6634

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2240 NM - l ~- PECKFORD: and as far as I know CMHC are going to remain in the same oosition they have been before whereby they will not consider any rental purchase agreement. MR. YOUNG: You mean those two fellows promised those people homes - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the minister. MR. YOUNG: - and did not live up to it? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! As the Province - MR.

NEARY: As the Province has a twenty-five per cent financial involvement in these houses, has the minister given any consideration to writing off the Province's twenty-five per cent in order to reduce the purchase price of these homes? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, because the agreement was a federal-provinclal one, we in a submission that I put before CMHC had agreed to take care of our twenty-five per cent, eliminate our twenty-five per cent on the formula that was in the proposal 1but because CMHC did not go along with the proposal that of course no longer is valid. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health.

I wonder if the Minister of Health, Sir, could tell us,as time is running out, if he is still optimistic about the possibility of avoiding a strike in the hospitals that is scheduled to take place on June 20, is the minister still optimistic that this can be averted, headed off? MR. SPEAKER: It is not so simple, Mr. Speaker, that I can reply in a word yes or no, The position is that the matter is now before a conciliation board and we read in the papers and we have heard statements that there is to be a strike on the 20th.

Now I for my part underst~nd that if the conciliation procedure is ~oing through as it has already started, and I am sure it will, that the earliest date that a legal strike could be held is likely to be somewhere in the second week of July, So that if any strike takes place on the 20th. of June, as we read in the papers and hear by statements that it may, then that would be of course an illegal strike. MR. MURPHY: Well it is not correct to say, Sir, that they cannot strike on the 21st. as we hear over radio and everything else. 6635

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2240 NM - 2 MR. WELLS: If they strike on the 20th. of June it would have to be an illegal strike. Now I am optimistic in this sense, Mr. Speaker, that I have sufficient confidence in the public employees of the hospitals and the people who represent them that they would not precipitate an illegal strike on the 20th. of June while at the same time going through the process which government has provided for the settling of disputes. So I cannot accept now the position that while on the one hand takinr,

part in the legal process they would at the same time walk out illegally on the 20th. Now what the conciliation board will report I do not know, but I am hopeful of course that settlement will be reached after the board's report. But I would say and say very clearly that we expect these public employees and their representatives to go by the law which has been established and we do not expect an illegal walkout on the 20th. and I think we would be all very sort:y to see that take place while the legitimate process is underway and being used. AN BON. MEMBER: Bear! Bear! MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Health, Sir, tell us now about the position of the nurses, when will they be in a legal position to strike or is the minister optimistic that there will be no strike amongst the nurses? MR. WELLS: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I would be optimistic that there would be no strike. It is appreciated that all groups bargaining with the government and in boards and groups, hospitals and the like,_ you know they have legitimate concerns and money is of course an important concern.

But the nurses,too,I suspect and hope and am optimistic that they are not going to take precipitate action that would cause difficulty to the people whom they serve and that the process of bargaining is underway and I think that we ought to wait until that process is fully exhausted before even thinking in terms that t~ere will be a strike,or certainly an illegal strike. MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: Have they gone into conciliation? No. No. MR. WEIJ.S: I do not believe they have. They of course will be dealing with 6636

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2240 NM - 3 Treasury Board. My understanding is they have not yet as~ed for conciliation services. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my honourable and learned friend the world traveller, the Minister of Fisheries, Sir. Could the minister infonn the House if there is any late news, any new developments on the matter 6637

June 13, 1975 Tape 2241 (morning) of the construction of a fish plant for Burgeo as the Town Council and the people down there are severely peeved with the minister and the government for delaying this project? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I shouln tell the honourahle gentleman that really he should direct his question to the honourable Minister of Regional and Economic Expansion hecause the ball has heen in his court for quite a long time in this situation, for at least a year. It is probably longer.

The Government of Newfoundland has been prepared to proceed with the construction of a new fish plant at Burgeo under a carefully structured and complicated arrangement with 1ational Sea Products Limited who are managing the plant. An application has heen before the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion for a year now if not longer in that connection. Once the final arrangments are made - there was a meeting some two weeks ago on the matter. The Minister of Industrial Development met with Mr. Jamieson there about a week ago. Re is away today and I do not know if there is TB-l any late breaking news.

But, certainly this is a matter that the C:overnmen t of Newfoundland has been prepared to proceed with at every instant over the last year and a half and still is. When the t'inister of Industrial Development comes back, he can give the House the latest news on that. But, certainly this government is well recognized hy the town council and the people of Burgeo as having pushed and promoted this proposal for the last eighteen months and we are ready to proceed with dispatch as soon as we know that the Government of Canada at· Ottawa are going to contribute also in a substantial manner. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the minister confirm or deny that they are now talking about a different kind of fish plant for Burgeo? I do not know what kind but I heard about some public statements saying that they were talking about revising the plans, the original plans. They will not now proceed with the original plans to build a fish processing plant in Burgeo similar to the one, for instance, that we have in ~arystown. Is there any foundation to this? MR. CROSBIE: This could very well be true, Mr.

Speaker, but I "'111 have to - you know, I can only tell the honourable gentleman that I would have 6638

June 13, 1975 Tape 2241 (morning) to wait to speak to the minister who is directly concerned with it, the Minister of Industrial Development. He will be here next week and he could give any details. The honourable gentleman can rest assured that IB-2 no matter what kind of fish plant it is, it will be up to date and will be one that will provide at least as much employment as is now provided in Burgeo if not more employment when construction is finished. But, for the latest details, we will have to wait for the ¥inister of Industrial Development. MF. NEA'RY: Mr.

Speaker, another question for the Minister of Health, Sir. Will the Minister of Health bring the House up to date on the shocking news that we received yesterday about twenty-five cases of silicosis in Labrador City? What about the situation at the ERCO plant where the workers down there are complaining of very poor working conditions and health hazards? What is the real situation in Labrador City and what is being done about it? What about Baie Verte, the asbestos mine in Baie Verte? Would the minister care to bring us up to date on these very, very serious problems? MF. SPEAKE!!: Order, please!

I sincerely hope that the answer by the honourable Minister of Health wil 1 he brief because the Chair feels that it could be a rather lengthly one, and as such it could go on, the question could go on the Order Paper. Rut, if the minister is prepared to he brief, then I shall permit him an answer. }fR. WI\U,S: I will only say at this stage, Mr. Speaker, that this also concerns the nepartrnent of Hines and Energy, the question of mines and asbestos fibers, these sort of things. There is continuing liaison and work between the Departments of Health and the Department of Mines and Energy on this.

It has been brought to the attention of the Department of Health that potential danger exists,well,practically in every mine and there is study and monitoring at all times in conjunction, and most of this I think is being carried out, most of this work, by the Department of lfines and Energy. But, I am glad the honourable member raised it. It is something that we are very conscious of and something that is going to be watched · and followed up very carefully in future. If the honourable member wishes, T can get more detailed information and present it to the House at a later date. MR. NF.ARY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would appreciate a full report because of 6639

June 13, 1975 Tape 2241 (morning) fl\-1 serious nature of this problem. I would appreciate a full report. I am sure that the members of the Rouse would he very happy to get. a repon on this. MR. WELLS: Yes, and that will be gladly provided, 'Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want tQ direct a question to the Minister of l'lanpower and Industrial Relations. Would the minis ter tell the l!ouse whether or not he has received a request from the St. Lawrence ·~iner5 Protective Union 6640

.Tune 13, 1975 Tape No. 2242 NM - l MR. NEARY: to intervene in that dispute in St. Lawrence between Alcan and the St. Lawrence miners? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received a request by telegram yesterday morning and by talking to Mr. Curtis,the bargaining agent for the union,yesterday afternoon. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, supplementary; Would the minister tell the House what action he_ has taken on that telegram, on that request, and will the minister become personally involved in that, ~pparently which is developing into a very serious labour dispute in St. Lawrence where the employees have been locked out? MR.MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, meetings have been arranged by this time by my Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Bannister, I believe for tomorrow morning but I have got to check that out a little bit later on. I do not plan to become personally involved in the conciliation procedures as such at this point in time.

I will however meet with both parties sometime tomorrow ,mrl discuss the situation with them. Any conciliation efforts that are done Twill have one of my conciliation people or Mr. Bannister the A.n.M. do that job. The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR, THO!'~: ~r. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and J\['.ri culture, Could the minister inform this honourahle House if there is a water bomber at the present time stationed at roose Ray aT'.d if ther e has reen any request from the fire officials in the Hahush Area for that water bowber to take

part in putting out the ser:f ous fin• which is in that area at the present time'? }1R. SPEJ\KER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Ap:riculture. MR. COLLINS: "'" Sneal,er, I have been :In touch with the people in Wabush since two-tl,1. rty t111s i;,orninr, had numerous telef)hone calls with µeof)le there anc'l kept 1.n touch until five minutes ap.o. A water bomber arrived on the scene from ~oose Bay at six-thirty this morninp. I might add for the information of the House that the fire is burning in wuat is commonly called 6641

June 13, 1975 Tape NO. 2242 NM - 2 caribou moss, There is no flame now. There is a considerable amount of s1110ke. It has burned to the edge of the open pit mine. MR. ROBERTS: Wabush? MR. COLLINS: At Wabush, yes, There is another water bomber at Montreal which should be available in a day or so and we are also in touch wi.th the Government of Quebec and we hope that if we need it we can get a bomber f~om them from Bagotville. So the thing is well in hand. MR. THOMS: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, Is there any danger at the present time to the Town of Wabush and if so is there any evacuation taking place? l'IR. COLLINS: No, Mr. Chairman, there is no flame. It is a matter of smoke now and it is pretty well under control and it is raininp.. MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I wonder, Sir, if the Minister of Justice could tell the House whether he issued instructions to have additional police sent to St. Lawrence yesterday or the day _ before? Oh,and Mr. Speaker, would the minister care to tell the House who issued the instructions to send additional R.C.M.P. officers to St. Lawrence? HR.. HICKMAN: No, Mr.

Speaker, I have no idea. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the minister tell the House whose responsibility it is to decide whether or not additional police should be sent to a community during a labour dispute? MR. HICKMAN: The appropriate officer in whichever police force is involved in the Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, Hae the minister objected 'to the presence of a1i these police officers in the Community of St. Lawrence, the peaceful Community of St. Lawrence? MR. HICKMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I would not be as irresponsible to take that act.

MR. SPEAKER: Order of the Day. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, is the question period expired? MR. SPEAKER: Not quite, no. MR. ROBERTS: Well then I have a question for the Minister of Education, Would the minister please tell us whether the government have accepted the recommendation made by Dr. Harris in his report to the effect that all of 6642

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2242 NM - 3 the schools should be, I do not want to use the word amalgamated, or integrated because they all have connotations in the education field, but it says here that .they should all be brought together and that the government should take over directly the educational systems in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education, MR. OTTENlIETMER: No, Mr. Speaker. I can state that the government certainly has not accepted that recommendation. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am not altogether surprised by the minister's answer but I wanted to have it on the record.

Perhaps I could go a step further with a supplementary. Is the government giving any consideration to that reco111111endation or have they rejected it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention of gov~mment to take over the schools. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I did not think it was but I wanted to have it on the record. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: I want to get back to the Minister of Justice there again, Sir. Was there any prior consultation between the gentleman in charge of the R.C.M.P. and the Minister of Justice before these additional police were sent to St.

Lawrence7 Were there any? AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: No prior consultation with the minister? The minister did not know of it? AN HON. MEMBER: No . MR. NEARY: Did not know a thing about it? MR. HICKMAN: Did not know a thing about it. MR. NEARY: Okay, Sir. 6643

June 13, 1975 Tape 2243 (morning) ORDERS OF THE DAY: AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. On motion of the Ron. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Stamp Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. rn-1 On motion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Libraries Act, 197 5," read a f1 rst time, ordered read a s1Pconc1 time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Education, a hill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University (Pensions)Act," read a first time, nrdered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Enviro~ment, a bill,"An Act Further To Amend The Auton,bile Insurance Act.'' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting A Plan Of Legal Aid For The Province. " MR. SPEAKER: I think the honourable Mellher for Placentia East adjourned the debate last night. I recognize the honourable Member for Placentia East. MR. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, when we adjourned the debate I had made a few observations with respect to this bill and also in reply to the remarks by the honourable Member for Bell Island, vho,I respectfully submit, Mr. Speaker, either did not read this bill,or if he did completely misunderstood it because this particular piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, is designed to do what the honourable Member for Bell Island says should be done. His great quarrel is that this is empire building and that it is only a milch cow for the lawyers. Mr.

Speaker, I hope he does not postulate the position of the Opposition on this bill because if he does I think it is very, very sad because this is a great piece of social legislation. I~ is a great step forward for Legal Aid. I think it culminates the aspirations of the Law Society and people concerned with Legal Aid for many years. What this act does, Mr. Speaker, fs take over, authorize the 6644

.Tune 11, 1975 Tape 2243 (morning) Minister of Justice to enter into agreement with the Law Society to take over the a~m1nistration of Legal Aid, and that is the whole purpose of this hill, section (72). !-<R. NF.ARY: Why not take over the whole Province? MR. AYL'·!ARD: The minister 6645 IB-2

June 13, 1975 Tape 2244 (morning) IB-1 may enter into such agreement or agreements as he thinks necessarc1 and reasonable with the Law Society respecting the takeover by the rommissfon of Legal Aid. Now, this is what tM s legislation is for, to take over from the Law Society the administration of Legal Aid. That is the whole purpose of this hill. MR. NEARY: Do not be so foolish, hoy. MR. AYLWARD: Do not be so foolish! Does he read, ~r. Speaker? noes he read? Or if he cannot read, can he hear? If he will refer to Section (72) this is the purpose of this legislation. That is the whole purpose of it.

Now, who controls Legal Aid? This commission. And this commission reports to whom? To the Minister of Justice who reports to the House of Assembly and all regulations of course respecting Legal Aid have to be passed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. These regulations, Mr. Speaker, the act enables the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to make regulations dealing with all aspects of Legal Aid including the fees to be paid to solicitors for professional services under this act or the regulations. So, Mr. Speaker, complete authority will be vested in the Lieutenant­ Govemor in Council to make and set the fees.

Now, to hear the honourable Member for Bell Island holler and scream about all the money the lawyers are making and their empire building and how much is the director of Legal Aid being paid, Mr. Speaker - MR. ROBERTS: Re is being paid out of public funds, is he not? :MR. AYLWARD: Of course. Of course. There is nothing secret about it. But, Mr. Speaker, the connotation is given that, oh, somebody is making a pile of money. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Row much is the director being paid. MR. AYLWARD: The director of Legal Aid in Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, is the lowest paid director in about six or seven or eight provinces of Canada. In fact in the provinces of New Brunswick, Saskatchewan , Cluehec-, ~anitoba, and (\ntario they pay double what the man in Newfoundland receives. MR. ROBERtS: Row much is our man getting? MR. AYLWARD: Our man is getting $14,000, $14,000. MR. NEARY: That is only half what Dirk Pepper gor- for being dismissed. '!14R. AYLWARD: Right, right~ And the man in New Brunswick gets $26,000 plus 6646

Jome 13, 1()75 Tape 2244 (morning) IB-2 a car, plus expenses. The man in Saskatchewan gets $26,900. 'J'he man in Quebec gets $30,nnn plus insurancf' and other benefits. The man in Manitoba gets $31,nno, Ontario, $32,000 now going to $36,000. And our man in Newfoundland is getting $14,000 and someone stands up, what 1s he getting! ~- ROBERTS: He is putting in for a raise, I would hope, now. ~'ll. AYLWARD: I think he should.

He has requested a raise and I sincerely trust that if thf.s is transferred to the connnission that when his contract with us with us expires in July, he has done wonderful work, I would be certainly very, very happy to recommend to the committee if it is in our jurisdiction or the connnission when it takes over, that his salary be increased. What do they have, ~r. Speaker? He has one other lawyer do~'!\ there ,•ith him. The purpose of obtaining the services of the other lawyer was to be able to deliver a better service at a cheaper cost. Now, how are the bills paid? As I said yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, all bills under ~200 are taxed by the provincial director and all bills over $200 by the Taxing Master who is the deputy registrar of the Supreme Court. In addition the Audi tor r-.eneral has audited the books of Legal /dd since its inception. In fact when the Legal Aid, when the Government of Newfoundland entered into an agreement with the Government of Canada .,e had at that time Lee and f-'artin do our hooks and the Auditor (',eneral not alone agreed to do the audit but in fact this is the only audit that the T..egnl Aid requires now.

So, all our books are being done, are being audited by the Auditor General. Every cent in Legal Aid, Mr. Speaker, is being spent,I respectfully submit and srent very, very well. What this act does and. the principle of it is to pass it over now to a Legal Aid Commission. I sincerely hope that this commission will continue to administer the plan and will set up the area rljrectors in <'lifferent parts of Newfoundland.

What this act st,ites and authorizes the commission to do is to set un differPnt areas throughout the Province .,here there wj 11 bP area d1 rectors and 1n remote parts of the Province where there are no lawyprs practicing aod people have prohlems trying to find out about Legal Aid, get to 1,ei,;al Ai d , a special statutory provision is made designating Legal Aid agents. That is referred to in Section (29). These will be individuals 6641

June 13, 1975 Tape 2244 (morning) in different coDDDunities of Newfoundland who will distribute information and assist people who want to find out ahout Legal Aid. It is an "Pl-3 attempt to bring Legal Aid out to the people. I think th1.s is a wonderful idea, Mr. Speaker. This is the kind of suggestion 6648

June 13, 1975 MR. AYLWARD: MR. ROBERTS: MR. AYLWARD: MR. ROBERTS: be accurate. Tape No. 2245 NM - 1 that we would have liked to have heard from the Opposition. The Opposition have been making that for about four years. Mr. Speaker - You cannot be accurate- if you cannot be complete at least MR. AYLl•JARD: I have heard only one member speak so far, Mr. Speaker, I know a little about this - MR. ROBERTS: We have made that suggestion in this chamber three or four times in the last three or four years. MR. AYLWARD: I know, Mr.

Speaker, that I have dealt with the honourable and learned gentleman, not really in his capacity of Minister of Justice but I remember himself - MR. ROBERTS: I have never been Minister of Justice. MR. AYLWARD: Not in the capacity of minister but - MR. SPEAK.ER (STAGG): Order, please! Order, please! When honourable members may indulge one another by allowing interruptions this is not correct and I suggest to the honourable Leader of the Opposition that the member speaking has the right to be heard in silence. MR. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. But I remember, Mr.

Speaker, meeting the honourable and learned gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition with his former colleague from White Bay South in the then Attorney General's Office when I was trying to extract some money from the adminsitration for li.ep:al Aid. MR. MURPHY: What did you get, $1,000? MR . AYLWARD: And what did we get, Mr. Speaker, in 1968 and 1969, 1970 and 197lf For three years we had $10,000! In 1971 it went to $25,000, in 1972 it continued at $25,000 and in 1973 to $100,000. Now this year it is hard to say, Mr.

Speaker, I suppose what portion is really from the provincial and what is from the federal, But now the hudget, the total budget I think this year is around $380,000, But,Mr. Speaker, we are compelled to provide Legal Aid to all individuals who cannot afford the services of lawyers who are char~ed with indictable offences, no matter where they are in Newfoundland and this has cost considerable money and I think, Mr. Speaker, the committee was very, very successful in delivering the 6649

June 13, 1975 Tape NO, 2245 NM - 2 type of service that it has delivered over the years considering the few la'!fYers that we have practicing in rural Newfoundland and the difficulties involved in getting lawyers to go to these communities. I would like to thank the Attorney General, Mr.

Speaker, who we found very, very co-operative and has supported the efforts of the committee and all concerned with Legal Aid, In fact the society and the committee have been after this bill for years and when we requested the bill and thr bill was first drafted in his department he referred it to the Legal Aid Committee and I had the director of that time, Mr.

Stapleton, who was attending the meeting of Legal Aid Directors all across Canada, discuss and consider with them the different programmes and look at their legislation and as a result of these meetings he drafted up a complete new act, a complete new - well bill really, Mr. Speaker, it is not

an act yet. This was submitted to the Attorney General's Department and I am glad to see there are very, very few changes, So this has the endorsation of the Legal Ai.d Committee and it was considered by the Benchers and they have approved as well. The society was quite concerned because ~egal Aid has grown to such an ex~ent and there is so much money involved. They are glad to see it taken over by a commission, but it is not enough to just see it take over, Mr.

Speaker, anyone concerned with Legal Ai.d should want to see it expand• But what do we hear from the honourable Member for Bell Island: Allthe money the lawyers were making! He never dealt with how the programme could be expanded. MR. NEARY: You are not on television. MR. AYLWARD: No. Just an attack on the lawyers, and that is good for publicity, Mr. Speaker, Legal Aid is a joke~ It is a milch cow! But, Mr. Speaker, is he doing his duty to the people he represents and to the people of the Province who need this service? I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that this bill receives the endorsation and support of every member of the honourable House of Assembly, not just use this bill as an excuse for cheap political gain. The lawyers, the doctors, the car dealers, anybody - AN HON, MEMBER: Human beings, MR, AYLWARD: No, Mr. Speaker - MR. MURPHY: Human beings. 6650

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2245 MR .• Art.WARD: Sure., ~se are men. Mr. S11eaker, he aho'11.d be paying tribute to the '!111!!1 who worked so hard and clid all this for notJting. Bis cousin, Mr. Edward Neary. who acted as secreta-ry of this Conlllittee spent 1110.re hours at: this act 8'l,d at: meetings of the Conlldtt.~ for years. If he we~ p~d. it would be thousands and thOUS811.ds of dollars but: st:Ul it is all held up to public ridicule. ~ is scandalous, Mr. S~eker. By all._, of couri.e. you can crlt:icize. 6651 NM - 3

June 13, 1975 Tape 2246 •~,J - J Anybody in this game understands it. But I think credit should be given where credit is due. And this cousin of his, Mr. Nearv, as I said before, who spent so much time at all these meetings, went over this act and did so much work for Legal Aid and has been mv right hand on this for years, if he were paid, Mr. Speaker, it would be thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and so also for other members of the committee. But not one cent! And then he speaks about he would be happy if this lawyer took the case and that lawyer. Until 1971 all Legal Aid in Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, was provided by the lawyers of Newfoundland free of charge. MR. ROBERTS: That is not so. The Justice Department used to pay a certain part - MR. AYLWARD: Ah. Well the odd case, eh? The odd case. A fellow would be charged with capital murder or something like that. MR. ROBERTS: Let us be accurate! MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, yes, here it is. "Steve claims LeRal Aid 1.s a joke." Three thousand neople 1.n Newfoundland last year, Mr. Speaker, three thousand, that 1.s who the Legal Ai.d helped, three thousand people. Over 200 divorces alone. The programme has eXl)anded.

A greater nuni>er of people were qualified for it. And here were neople whQ had broken homes for years and under the new law, of course, any person separated from their married partner for over three years that was their grounds for divorce. There was a backlol!; of them. A lot of poor women their husbands had gone off and other cases - years and years. And last year alone 200 cases! What would these 200 neople say? What would the 3,000 who received Legal Aid say? Would thev support this? No, Mr. Speaker, indeed they would not.

They would he ashamed, ashamed that we would even listen to it because what we should be concentrating on in a debate of this nature is how we can improve the service. How can we give the poor people of N=foundland who need Legal Aid better service than we are P.ivin!'; them todav? How can we improve upon it? Not just use this as a e;reat big golden opportunity to lash out at the lawyers when he sees this element of it. 6652

June 13, 1975 Tal'e no. 224fi Onlv two lawvers in NewfouncUand, only two, and I will not mention them, over the years refused to take a Legal Aid case. They are not among the gentlemen mentioned by the honourable the Member for Rell Island. Rut he knows them and knows them well. Page 2-MW I am glad to say, Mr. Speaker, that when the Society brought in Legal Aid, and it was a requirement of all lawyers if a case was assigned to them to take it and take it for nothing, and if they could not take the case to retain and pay a lawyer themselves.

And we have lawyers in this Province who have !'aid other lawyers as high as $500 to defend peonle, over $500, And, at least, Mr. S1)eaker, nobody expects him to be other than glorified on this. Rut they should he recoJ!:tlized. I would exPect better from a man who held the portfolio of Social Services, who was SU1)posed to be the great white knight, the greatest humanitarian that ever took a seat in this honourable House of Assembly. And what does he see and what do we hear? Oh. what money the lawyers are making!

And the honourahle member who is now the Minister of Social Services, just a simple re~uest, we needed a social worker down there who we felt would round out the office and help some people who are having trouble, and I am glad to state, Mr. Sneaker, that the honourable minister has acceded to that request and has placed in the Legal Aid offices now a qualified social worker who is working very, very well, hand in glove with the other people in the office and are giving the noor T1eople not alone legal service hut good advice, good, that vou can hardly buy, Mr. S1)eaker.

There is no agency in Newfoundland, there is no independent agency where vou can get that tvpe of advice on that very, very noble effort. I give the oresent minister one hnndre<l percent marks for that and with no cost to the Legal Aid Committee at all, Mr. Speaker. That is oaid from a vote from his department and that girl is working wonderfully well. In addition we have down in that office a girl who worked there for five vears. Unfortunatelv, she is leavi~g now. She is expecting an addition to her family. She has been there for five and 6653

June 13, 1()75 Tape no. 224fi one-half years. She worked right around the clock. There were hard times. There was no money to oay lawvers anvthing, givinp.; all kinds of advice and assistance. Thev dic1 a Pap.;e 3 - l"fH 6654

June 13, 1q75 Tape 2247 (morning) wonderful joh for a great number of people. And, ~r. Speaker, I always maintain myself that the legal rights of a person are more important than any other rights that they may have. All the money we spend on IB-1 health, all the money if you break your leg, you are taken to any doctor you like. If you get a nervous breakdown, they send you to a psychiatrist. There is no amount of it. You can get medical care for the rest of your life, top-notch. If there is no one in this Province, they will send you off to the Mainland, everything on the government.

Probably if you cannot travel yourself, they will send someone along with. But, what about a person, Mr. Speaker, who has grave troubles in their home, or a contract is broken? I respectfully submit, I am sure, from 'Where you sit,and particularly in your practice in an area of Newfoundland where there those broken hmnes unfortunately exist,and probably to a greater degree than anywhere else,particularly when the Americans pulled out there in that particular area, I am sure that if you could speak from where you sit, you could tell us, Mr.

Speaker, from all the divorces that you have had to handle for Legal Aid, what a blessing it was, what a blessing it was that these poor people could now enforce their rights. You will no longer have a law for the rich and a law for the poor. In some areas, yes. But, Mr. Speaker, here are these people living in - their husbands gone, no support, wanted to remarry, wanted a divorce but they could not - 'ffi. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! 'Inch as I would like to listen to the honourable member further, hjs time has expired. I will give him a minute or so to clue up.

However, I must before h1s time is up bring to his attention a point of order which was brought up by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. T have obtained a transcript and the transcript of the honourable member in referring to the honourable Member for Bell Island said as follows: "I think that no one knows any better than the honourable gentleman 'Who has just taken his seat that, you know, he does not believe himself the half of what he says because I refuse to think that " a man could be as blind as he appears to be.

Well, that is a statement of opinion on the part of the honourable member but I believe that it does transgress the rules of unparliamentary language that I have read and 6655

June 13, 1975 Tape 2247 (morning) I would ask the honourable member if he would retract that statement. 'fl!. AYLWARD: MR. NEARY: t-lR. AYLWARD: Oh, by all means, Mr. Speaker. Name him. Name him. I trust the man but, Mr. Speaker, when he says, oh, it could go to $1 million. He should be supporting efforts to get more money, to increase the service, ~!r. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Time is up'. Time is up~ Tn-7 MR. AYLWARD: I would like to stand on a platform anywhere in Newfoundlancl with this gentleman when he decries Legal Aid like he has done here. MR • NEARY : Time is up~ 't-lR. AYLWARD: ""r.

Speaker, what will they say on Rell Island. No wonder if what I hear is true - AN HONOUl!.ABLE 'P-IEMBER: l'r. ~peaker, a point of orrler - MR. ATI.WARD: - he is going to leave Bell Island. MR. NEARY: A point of order, ~r. Speaker. MF.. AYLWARD: No wonder he is leaving Rell Island. \fR. ROBF.RTS: A point of order, Sir. Would the honourable gentleman like to sit down while I make the point. I am quite willing to listen to the honourable gentleman's ranting and ravings at any length that is perniftted by the House. But, Your Honour did say just a minute or so ago that the honourable gentleman's time had expired MR.

AYLWARD: Oh,no - MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Sir. And Your Honour then said,as is Your Honour's courteous · practice that Your Honour would allow him a moment or so to draw his remarks to a close. That is fine, Sir, but the honourable gentleman is apparently launching himself on yet another assault upon the gentleman from Bell Island. Sir, I would suggest that is not dra'Wi.nr his remarks to a close. NR.. AYLWARD: To that point of order. To that point of order, Hr. Speaker, I was drawing my remarks to a close. You r,ave me a minute and a h~lf - MR. ROBERTS: Rear! Rear~ MR.

AYLWARD: - and I think I spent thirty seconds of this. Let me say this, Mr. Speaker, in closinr,. This is a great piece of legislation. I only hope that someone on the other side 9tands up and supports this because it should. and I hope will receive the sunport of every honourable gentleman in this Rouse. 665':,

June 13, l q7 S Tape 224 7 (morning) IB- 3 _rll . NEARY: Would the honourable member permit me? Your Honour - 'fR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Ml!. NEARY: Your Honour, there is a point of orde.r before the :House. I believe Your Honour has to rule on the point of order before the member can throw another tantrum. MR. SPF.AKEP (STAGG): We cannot have three hQnourable members on their feet at the same Ume. I miyht add that the hQDQurable member's time has expired unfoYtunately. The hQnourable the Minister of Mines and Energy. '1-!R. BARRY: I would like t .o have a few CQDtents on this bill, Mr. Spe;i.lcer.

I find it amazing really that the remarks that came out of the honourable J,(embe·r f ·or B_ell I.sland. He l!IUSt ha-ve had an off day, Mr. Speaker, because :i.t is not consistent with the noJ'lllal philosophy that the honourable member espouses in this Rouse. Th.e honourable membe.r sets himself up as a champion of the underdog. Mr. Speaker, he sets hill!Self up as a champion of the consumer, a ch~ion of all eleuents of our soc:f.ety, Mr. Speaker. And here we have him attempting to peut to ridicule a bill 6657

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2248 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: that I suppose as much as any other piece of legislation that will ever be put before this honourable House will do more to protect tre rip,hts, to improve the position of the ordinary Newfoundlander than any other piece of lerislation we can exnect to see. We have heard, !1r. Speaker, that - MR. NEARY: Another Indian Chief! MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! MR. BARRY: It is often alleged there is one law for the rich and one law for the poor. . And, Mr. Speaker, that has been true.

As a lawyer who has practiced I can say that that has been true,bPcause we know, we all know and you do not have to practice law to know this, that there are instances where some ordinary person will have what he considers to he a cause of action, what he considers to be a grievance or an injustice, uhich he will not pursue in the courts or elsewhere because he is afraid that he can not bear the cost that would be incurred in so doing, because he has not been able to afford the cost of pursuinr the remedies that he is entitled to just the same as any other citizen of this Province, of this Country.

Ve have seen that some people have been in a position to pursue their reme.dies whether they be civil or criminal because they could afford to do so. That, Mr. Speaker, is what I mean when I say that there has been one law for the rich alld one for the poor and I think that until MR.· HDRPHY; Al Vardy is the best example of that. MR. BARRY: - Legal Aid came on the scene, this was true not just in this Province but in many other provinces.Rut we now have a situation, Mr.

Speaker, where any citizen of this Province can go to Legal Aid, can set out a cause of action, can set out a grievance or an area where he believes an injustice has been done and can obtain from the state, from the taxpayers' dollars, can obtain assistance in meeting the cost of protecting the rights that he is entitled to protect just the same as his fellow Newfoundlander who is in a more advantageous position having a greater income or greater savings or being somewhat better off. 6658

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2248 NM - 2 Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, we have also seen in this Province that there has been one law for the urban Newfoundlander and one law for the rural Newfoundlander,because we have seen a phenomenon, again it is not unique to this Province but that has occurred,where lawyers had tended to congregate in St. John's initially and then one or two in the larger towns such as Grand Falls and the City of Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: Where will the second mortgage m~ney be secured? MR. BARRY: But, Mr. Speaker, you have found that very few lawyers were out in the . rural areas of our Province.

Now this is changing and this will continue to change as more lawyers come into the .Province and this is why I am sure the honourable Member for Bell Island will encoura~e more lawyers to come on the scene, to encourage lawyers moving out all around the Province. MR. NEARY : A man should be able to represent himself in court . MR. BARRY: Because, Mr. Speaker, if any man is permitted to represent himself in court, just as any man is able to take out his own appendix if he is so inclined, Mr.

Speaker, and we might be interested in seeing the honourable Member for Bell Island attempt to engage in that or perhaps in brain surgery. AN !ION . MEMBER: In what? i.m. BARRY: In brain surgery - MR. MURPHY: You cannot do the impossible. MR. BARRY: I am sure - MR. MURPHY: You have to have something to work on. MR; BARRY: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that there could be a set of tweezers found that could be made available to the honourable member. Anyhow I did not mean that. I did not mean to be unkind to the honourable member. MR. MURPHY: He is such a nice fellow, MR.

BARRY: But, Mr, Speaker, we have seen the situation develop where - MR. NEARY: Next time I will give you more, MR. BARRY: - throughout the years people in the rural areas of the Province have either been unable to 6659

June 13, 1975 Tape DO. 2249 Page 1 - mw obtain a 1..,,,,er when they require one or else have had to pay much more in the way of legal fees because of the travelling distance incurred by the lawyer,because of the additional time the lawyer spends out of the office and so on. The individual in rural Newfoundland has ended up paying more for the protection that he is entitled to, for the legal assistance that he is entitled to the same as his fellow Newfoundlander who happens to reside in an urban area where there are lots of lawyers.

So we have a bill before this House now that will benefit people in our Province who cannot nomally afford to pay the cost of legal services. It will benefit the rural Newfoundlander who has up to now been at a disadvantage because of the additional cost that he has had to incur. Not only, Mr. Speaker, does this bill provide for assistance with respect to criminal matters but I found when I was practising law, and I know the situation has continued since then, that lawyers involved in Legal Aid are involved in the protection of the consumer.

They are acting for the consumer and are assisting citizens in dealing with government and municipalities. They are providing counselling often in financial matters, in domestic matters. ~ guess, Mr. Speaker, I have had the privilege of doing a number of Legal Aid cases when I was practising,both under the Legal Aid Progrmmn.e and before then, before the Legal Aid Progrmmn.e got underway. AN BON. MEMBER: Charity. MR.. BARRY: But in any evant, Mr. Speaker - not charity - doing what as a lawyer you had a responsibility to do. Mr.

Speaker, we !tot an indication of a large n\Dber of our people who are taking advantage of the :Legal Aid Programme, and I am sure that they will be happy to know that the assistance they have gotten is being ridiculed by the Bon. Member for Bell Island. I am amazed really at a man who sets himself up as the protector, the promoter of the cause of the ordinary Newfoundlander, to have h~ pass off the obvious advantages to, every man, woman and child in this Province from hsving this bill approved. And, Mr. Speaker, I hope that every member of this honourable Bouse, including the Hon.

Member for Bell Island, gets up and gives wholehearted support to this bill and votes for this bill when it is put before the House. Because, Mr. Speaker, 6660

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2249 Page 2 - mw it is something that will go far to protect the rights of our citizens, and it is a step forward, a step in the right direction, and I ask the Hon. Member for Bell Island to recansider. His, I take in good grace, and I think •~ is doing a very worthwhile job in keeping the legal profession on its toes, and I know every lawyer appreciates the conments Clbat the Hon. Member for Bell Island makes, and I hope he will continue to keep the legal profession on its toes to ensure that it~remains alert to its public duty. Bnt, Mr.

Speaker, he should not let bis over-zealousness blind hiJa to the obvious effects, the obvious adv11Dtages for every Newfoundlander of having this bill approved by this Legislature. MR. SPEAltER (Kr. Stagg): If the minister speaks now he closes the debate. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Hon. Member for Placentia, for the both Placentiae have very effectively answered the position of the Opposition as put by the Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. ROBERTS : KR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: Will you permit a question? No, Mr. Speaker. Okay, I thank the honourable gentleman.

There are two points that I wish to refer to in connection with the comnents made by the justice critic for the Opposition. One,there was a suggestion that the legal profession are making a great deal of money offthis operation. Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitancy in saying and advising this House that the fees being charged for the legal profession by the lawyers who participate in the Legal Aid Progr-e are not only modest but considerably 6661

June 13, 1975 Tape 2250 (morning) IB-1 below that going and that would be charged in a normal practice. ~ay I give this House just a few examples of the average cost per case which includes both fees and disbursements. Brea~, ent~, and theft, ~171.11. Fraud, forgery, and false pretenses, the average $154.09. Narcotics cases, an average of $278.73. Appeals - MR. NEARY: How about getting horses out of camels? MR. HICKMAN: -$243.91. Hit and run, $150.74. Willful, 'mal1d.011s, mischievous damage, SU0.00. Breach of parole,probation or 1-ond, $R<J.55. These are t:he - '41!. NEARY: Is that a minute or an hour? MR.

HICKMAN: That is an average cost, fees and disbursements per case , Mr. Speaker, which indicates to me and I would hope indicates to the taxpayers of this Prov:f.nce that the legal profession are indeed providing a very valuable social service to the people of this Province. MR. NEARY: Your name will be put on the top of the list. ?-fR. HICKMAN: Indeed, Mr. Speaker, if we looked at even oh, some of the more - ?-fR. NEARY: Your name will replace Jim Green's at the too of the list . MR. HICKMAN: In fact, here is one for the honourable the Leader of the Opposition - the honourable the Member for Bell Island.

He is concerned about w1.ld animals. I do not quite know why he is so up tight about wild animals. But the average cost of defending a case involving wild animals, $150.00. MR. NEARY: Is that getting a horse out of a - MR. HICKMAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the suggestion has been made that the Province, the Department of Justice, the Minister of Justice should assume responsibility for providing Legal Aid. May I say, °"r. Speaker, that that is not a philosophy or a suggestion that can stand the light of day.

There would be such an apparent, such an obvious conflict of interest: if you had a crown prosecutor, a lawyer on the staff of the Pepartment of Justice serving as crown prosecutor and then some other lawyer in the pay of the Government of Newfoundland on the staff of the Pepartment of Justice or even as this public defender system that has been trierl 1n some jurisdictions with very limited success - MR. NEARY: The Nember for Placentia would run it. 6662

Tape 2250 (morning) IB-2 MR. HICKMAN: - that conflict of interest would in my opinion not ~ive to an accused person the kind of unbiased fair fearless representation that he is entitled to receive when he applies for and is granted Legal Aid. MR. HICKMAN: This is a good piece of legislation, a good social piece of legislation. I know where the government of this Province stands on Legal Aid. The Province is aware of the government's attitude, the government's willingness to provide funds.

The position of Her ~ajesty's Loyal Opposition has been very articula~ely put by the justice critic for the Opposition, -the honourable the Member for Bell Island. I have no hesitancy in saying that the government members, the government benchers will vote for this piece of legislation and I think it should be noted that we have nothing hut oppositio1' for it from those who occupy the Opposition benches. I move second reading. On motion a bill, "An Act Respecting A Plan Of Legal Aid For The Province," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. "MR. ROBERTS: This is going to be one of the longest committee stages, "Alex" you have ever seen'. MR. HICKMAN: That is because you crossed Ill!: up on Friday. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: We did not cross you up. You were being surly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: C.o get your blood pressure checked ; boy! Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Forest Fires Act." (Bill No. 48). MR. SPEAKER: MR. COLLINS: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. 1--fr.

Speaker, this amendment is brought about by virtue of the fact that since the Province has assumed control 6663

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2251 Page 1 - mw or respon_sibility - I should say, contl!.,l and responsibility, for forest fire fighting all over Newfoundland. There has to be a few changes made1so my officials tell me, and I agree with them, and I am sure the House will,too, in that they want to protect government in terms of the cost of fighting fires in the event that it can be shown that a fire was brought about by negligence on the part of Canadian National,for instance,or by any other company for that matter. So what we are doing:or what the amendment means, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council would have the powers· to assess · liabilities and also collect some cost if it could be shOV11 that the fire was indeed caused by indiscriminate action on the part of a company or a person. Of course, in : teras of a person there are very few people I suppose that we could recover any costs from.

But in the event that a fire, as I say, was caused by Canadian National,or anyone else for that matter,if it was proven to be by negligence then we would try and recover some of the costs for the first two er three days of the fire, Essentially, Mr, Speaker, that is the purpost! of the amendment, and it gives ae pleasure to move second reading. MR.. SPEADR.: The Bon. Leader of the Opposition, Mil.

ROBER.TS: Mr, Speaker, there is a very dangerous philosophical view, at least I have always felt it to be a very dangerous one, Sir, one which is an easy one to adopt, an easy trap to fall into, but a very, very dangerous position philosophically, politically, realistically and all the more dangerous because of the apparent,or first of all because of the actual ease with which one can fall into that position and then secondly because of the apparent attractiveness of it. The minister's speech, Sir, and this bill.the bill which he introduced, provide a very good ex-ple of it, what I am talking about.

The philosophical doctrine, Sir, is that the end somehow justifies the means. Now, Sir, nobody . could quarrel with the end of controlling forest fires,or of preventing them to begin with.and then if they do occur despite the 666ti

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2251 Page 2 - - prevention, the pevention measurea,of controlling them, Nor would anybody for one minute quarrel with what I believe should be the policy adopted by the gover11111ent of this Province with respect to the fighting of forest fires. Dallely • that it should be the government who fights then., and I think that is the policy now. It does not matter where a fire breaks out, Sir, whether it breaks out on Crown limits. on paper ctapany limits, on other privately held limits.

As far as I aa concerned, Sir, it is the duty of the government of this Province to fight that forest fire just as it is the duty of the government of the Province• which they discharge through the St. John I s Fire Department or through municipal f:lre organizations to fight the fires which break out in homes and bain.esses throughout our Province from tille to t:iae. But, Sir, that is the end. If ve support the end, I do not think anybody would quarrel with it. I do not see how anybody could. And if a fire breaks out on Bowaters l:lmita or on Price limits it should not be there responsibility to fight it.

They should help. They should co-opted. Their men should be made available. Their resources should be made available. And I • quite willing to say that financially they should bear at least that part of the cost which is in relation to their benefit. I do not see any reason why the people of the Province should be out of pocket• Mr. Speaker, to pay money to protect property which belongs to a private company, property which that company will use,quite legitimately,but nonetheless will use for their own private profit. So, Sir, the end is acceptable, Bu~,•Mi-.

Speaker, the means in this case is open to very real question. And, Sir, this is part of the trend which this administration seems to have fallen into. I am not proposing to debate any other bill, Sir, but the principle of this bill, I submit, is exactly the same in spirit as other bills which we have seen brought before this House, Sir, some of which are still before the House. The Minister of Tourism's bill on the Wildlife Act, an infamous bill, has the .same sort of principle in it, the end justifies the means. I am sorry to see the minister leaving.

Maybe he is going out for a cigarette or maybe he is not leaving, 6665

June 13. 1975 Tape no. 2251 Page 3 - mw- But, I think, he should :listen to what we have to say because I think it is quite relevant and quite im.portan.t. This bill, Si.r, if it is passed without amendment, and I hope it will not be, and I hope we do not see the sort of child.ish surliness that the Minister of .Justice just exhibited as only he can. I hope the minister will rise above that and will rise to the occassion. This bill would do far more than provide that the government can collect when they are out of pocket in connection with forest fire fighting. That is acceptable.

I mean, as a statement of policy, I would be the first to accept it, to agree wi.th it, to endorse it and. to say let us 666 6

June 13, 1975 Tape No, 2252 NM - 1 implement it. Rut, Sir, this bill, Section (2) - and I submit this is the principle of the bill really, it is the only thing the minister mentioned. The bill only has four

section and two of them are procedural and two are substantive - this bill would allow the government, would allow the government unilaterally, arbitrarily to determine how much they are going to collect, no right of appeal, no right of a paper company to say.hold on now, either we are not liable at all,and we are not, you know;and no mea~s of determining that. And then if it is found that they are liable or if they agree that they are liable, no means to determine how much they should be liable for.

Now let us look, Sir, at the section, section (2) it provides let us use non-technical language but I think I am describing its import and its effect accurately, that where it is determined,in effect,that a fire has broken out on private limits, a determination made by the government, or by a person or comm:1.ttee da da da da and so forth. The minister should go to the Governor in Council and the minister - or the company shall pay such compensation as appears to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to be sufficient to any person adversely affected by the exercise of the power, that is one point.

The second point is in number (3), section (3), the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may7 by order published in the Newfoundland Gazette, require da da da da to pay the total cost or such proportion of the total cost as may be specified in the order incurred by Her Majesty in extinquishing forest fires for such lands,and any order made under this

section may specify the details of the payment and it also provides, Sir, that such an order may be, the government may take it to court and sue as if it were a debt, Now, Sir, let me deal with section (3), because section (2) I will come back to it deals with a slightly different situation. But I think this section (3), Sir, is a very dangerous power because under it the minister and I, I am sorry, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, presumably on the minister's initiative but Cabinet as a whole-- I am willing to say acting 6667

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 2252 NM - 2 in good faith. They may not be but I will grant that most often Cabinets do - may arbitrarily, unilaterally, without any reference to anybody, order a private owner, perhaps my friend from Bonavista North who has, what,a lease on a couple of hundred acres up on the Gander River - MR. THOMS: 140 Acres. MR. ROBERTS: 140 acres,is it, on which he grows vast quantities of potatoes and turnips and vegetables. That is a legitimate interest, a proper interest and I wish we had a hundred more farmers in Newfoundland who woUld grow a hundred acres of potatoes each.

It would be a very good thing indeed. Now, Sir, supposing for some reason the Lieutenant-Governor in Council requires the lessee in this case, he has possession or control of lands within the Province, to pay the total cost as may be specified in the order incurred by Her Majesty in extinquishing forest fires on his land. Reasonable enough but it does not say who determines the costs. We may get a situation where the minister or the Cabinet decide that all of the costs of extinquishing all of the fires next month on the Gander River,if we should be so unfortunate as to have any, are taxed to,one man's land.

No, Sir, I do not need to go on at any great length on this but I want to make that one point, This act is deficient. It should be withdrawn. It should be taken back to the draftsmen. The draftsmen should be told to put a provision in that where a person against whom an order is made is aggrieved and does not feel either that he is liable, or that his liability has been properly assessed, he may have an appeal, perhaps to an arbitration board under the Expropriation Act, perhaps to a court, _ and that then if the appeal settles it the matter will go forward. I have no objection to it being made an automatic debt.

That is not an offensive provision, that is quite a normal administrative provision. The S.S.A. Act is an example of that. But, Sir, as it now stands thus bill puts too much power in the hands -of the Cabinet. I am surprised the Justice Minister,who formerly used to be a man who told us he was concerned 6668

June 13, 1975 Tape 2253 (morning) with c1v11 liberties and the rights of the subjectlwould a]low such legislation to come in. It is quite simple, Sir. The cabinet can make an order. The words are there, bald, naked, and the order can just say, to pay the total cost or such proportion of the total cost as may be specified by the ordPr incurred by Her Majesty in extinquishing forest fires from the lands under his control. It is putting too much power in the hands of the cabinet. There can be no reason ·against allowing an appeal provision, no reason at all for it.

The minister wiil probably say 1 or one of his colleagues will say for hjm, oh well, we are going to use this power reasonahly. But, Sir, the books are fillet! and the centuries are filled with precedents where reasonahlP legislation has heen used unreasonably. That is why I began by saying that there is a very dangerous doctrine evidenced in this bill, that the end justifies the means. If the end is acceptable, it matters IB-1 not what means we used to get that end. That is what is happening .here.

The end is perfectly acceptable, ~ir, and it would be low of any honourable gentleman opposite,worthy only of the Minister of Justice to get up and say, oh, ,:.•ell, we are somehow against this bill because we feel that the means arp not acceptable. The end is perfectly acceptable. If a fire breaks out on my colleague's land and he is somehow responsible for 1 t within the normal meaning of that, let him pay the costs. If 1t is to his benefit to have it extinquished, let him pay a fair share of the costs. Althm1gh I might add, if the fire breaks out in the honourahle gentleman's home here in St.

John's,and he sends for the f1re department and they come and they put out the fire, he does not then get a bill from his colleague, the Minister of Justice or from the cabinet for that. He pays for it as part of his taxes. It would be a far more effective hill, a far more effective principle to implement the policy to say th~t my friend and anybody else who owns land in this Province shall pay a fire protection tax. We will raise enough money through a fire protection tax to pay the cost of our fire fighting services. The administration, Sir, have got an acceptable end but a very objectionahle means.

I would urge the minister to withdraw this bill. It could be redrafted in a day or so. It would not he a difficult job, but a very important principle. I just heard the gentleman from Placentia East in one of his fights of oratorical fancy say - and I agreed with him 6669

June 13, 1975 Tape 2253 (morning) IB-2 for once - that the rights - I am paraphrasing him and I think I am putting them accurately and I think his collearue, the Minister of Health, would agree,that the rights of the subject must be paramount, that the rights of an individual against the state must be jealously guarded and protected. Sir, this bill flies in the face of that. Oh, maybe I am taking the unusual circumstance. Maybe in ninety-nine out of 100 that will not be the way this bill works. It could well be. But, Sir, it is the hundredth that must concern us.

All of our civil liberties ~ all of the great landmarked cases, he they here or anyvhere, where we have concerns with civil liberties, came because of the one hundredth case. F.ven in the bihle, it tells us that, I am more concerned - I think our ~aviour was speaking - he is more concernerl with the one who strayed frOlll the fold than with the ninety and nine who were in the fold. This Rouse, ~ir, should be concerned with the exceptirn, with the injustice that could be done. Your Honour seems about to spring up to call it one o'clock.

If Your Ronour wishes I will call it one and we will have a good lm1ch and we will resume at three and carry on with the roint. MR. SPEAKER: It is to be notpd that the honourable Leader of the Opposition has adjourned the debate. I now call it one of the clock and leave the Chair until three of the clock this afternoon. 6670

June 13, 1975 Tape 2254 (afternoon) The House resumed at 3: 00 P .1-1'. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MF. SPF-'°IKEP.: !-'JI. ROBERTS: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Spea_ker. We are back on bill No. 48, "An IB-1 Act Further To Amend The Forest Fires Act." I had, I think, pretty well concluded the point which I wished to make with respect to this bill, this amendment to the Forest Fires Act»and to bring the matter back into a framework I would like to just repeat the point very briefly.

That is tha·t this bill, Sir, is a very good example of the very dangerous philosophy adopted by this administration 1it would seem. That philosophy is the view that the end somehow justifies the means. The end here is eminently desirable. Anything which will increase the protection from forest fires atforded to our legislature - to our land, our forest land in this Province is something which we should very much encourage.

But, Sir, to try to achieve that end by giving the cabinet the power unilaterally,without recourse to law, without recourse to appeal, without recourse to anything except their own opinion, their own judgement, to give them the power to assess unlimited sums of money limited only by the very vague phrasing, such proportion of the total - I am sorry - the very vague phrase, "and to pay the total cost incurred by Her Majesty in extinquishing forest fires on such lands," that, Sir, is too broad a grant of power. There are no limits on that, Sir.

It could be argued - I do not know whether successfully or not - but it certainly could be argued with some force under those words which are the words taken from Section (3) of the bill, it could be argued that a proportion of the salary of the 1-finister of Forestry and Agriculture would have to be paid by any individual whose private land had been burned by forest fire and the forest fire had been fought by government agencies. It could be maintained that the chief forester's salary in part would have to be borne.

There is nothing here to say, nothing here to limit those words, There is nothing there to provide for any appeal against a determination by the cabinet. There is nothing here to provide for anything except an arbitrary unilateral decision by the cabinet. Now, Sir, that is too wide a grant of power to give the cabinet. It is unnecessary in the circumstances. It is something that they just do not need. So, I again suggest to the 6671

June 13, 1975 Tape 2254 (afternoon) rn-2 minister that he should withdraw this bill or we should adjourn the debate now and he should go back to the draftsmen and get a clause which could be put in, he should assure us it will be put in and then at Committee stage it could be put in, a clause saying simply that any order made by the minister under this act shall be appealed either as to the detennination of liability, the first decision which must be made is to whether or not a person is liable, then, assuming he is found liable, the appeal against the second fact or the second factor in it which is the amount assessed.

As I said at the outset, Mr. Speaker, there is a very real danger. I think we have seen any number of examples of it in this House in this session, and if we had searched the statute books for the last twentv-five years, we could probably find many more. But we have seen the Wildlife Act come in I we saw the abortive bill, the creation of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation bill which we are told,and I assume we will get legislation to limit it, but as it now stands that corporation has unlimited authority to borrow money.

Here now we have a bill which gives the minister power, a wide grant of power. 'The Governor in Council"may by order published in The Newfoundland Gaaette require owners, lessees, licensees and other persons having possession or control of land within the Province to pay the total costs or such proportion of the total costs as may be specified 6672

June 13, 1975 Tape no. 2255 Page l - mw in the order,incurred by Her Majesty in extinguishing forest fires in such lands,and an order made under this

section may specify the circwnstances in which payment shall be made, including without limiting the generality of the foregoing the location, cause,extent and period of duration of forest fires,and any payment required to be made under this

section pursuant to such order may be recovered by Her Majesty as a debt following action in a court of competent jurisdictionJlit is a very wide grant of power, Sir. It is unnecessarily wide, and I submit that it should not go thmough the House in that form. The proper way, I submit, is to allow an appeal to a judge of the Supreme Court or alternately to an Expropriation Board or a board set up under the Expropriation Act .an appeal 9'aint either the finding of liability or the determination of liability by the minister,or alternately an appeal against the assessment, the actual mmunt of the asses•ent.

Other than that, Mr. Speaker, the bill is largely objectionable because that is really the only substantive point in the bill. Clause (2) of the bill is essentially a procedural point. It enables the minister to have the power to appoint an Expropriation Board where, in certain circumstances, he has the duty of determining the amounts to be paid to persons affected by orders which he has made under the legislation. The minister is then allowed to appoint a board and in effect the Expropriation Act is made part of the Forest Fire Act for these purposes.

I think that is a reasonable enough suggestion, and I am quite happy to go along with that. But the other one, Sir, the point made in Section (3), the one of the grant of power to the minister, Sir, that is too much. It should not go through without challenge. It will not go through without challenge.

It should not go through without amendment, and I hope the government will listen to reason on this, will listen to logic, will do what is right and proper and that is to protect the interests of the persons who could be affected and the way to protect it, as I have said~ is by amending the act, Now I hope that the menber for Placentia East, who is so vocal and outspoken in his defense of legal rights,will make it quite clear where he stands on this one. It is very well for him to attack the gentlemen here for voicing their views. It is very well for the 667~:>

June 13. 1975 Tape no. 2255 Page 2 - mw Minister of Justice to play his low little games and sly little games but let them now say where they stand on a very important principle~ Do they believe - and silence from the Minister of Justice will indicate that he in fact does believe that he sponsors this legislation and endorses it and now that it has been pointed out to them and it would be charitable and assumes that they had not realized it before, they had not looked at the legislation in this light - do they believe now that the cabinet should have the power to say to an owner of land, "He have determined what the total cost of fighting a forest fire on your land is, We say what they are, You cannot challenge that, And we now say that you must pay them in all or in part, and you cannot challenge that either.

And if you do not like that• you cannot do anything about it, You cannot go to court, you cannot object in any way. The law is the law, and there is the law, And if you do not pay it we are going to take you to court and we will get a judgment against you, and we will attach your wages or we will seize your property and send the bailiff to sell it? 11 I think, Sir, it is too wide a grant of power. and I would ask, the ministry to - the Minister of Justice is leaving now. I would assume that he or one of his colleagues will speak to indicate just where they stand on this bill.

Sir, there is no need for it to go through in its present form. It will be a positive harm to the public interests of this Province. and I ask the ministry to let it stand and to reconsider it and then amended it along the lines as I have suggested. Thank you. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the debate. MR. SPEAKER: It has been noted that the Hon. Minister of Fisheries moved the adjournment of the debate. MR. CROSBIE: Motion 4, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 4 is a motion on the Order Paper to be moved by the Hon. Minister of Justice.

It is really the report of the Seclect Colllllittee on the Inshore Fishery. 6674

J une 13, 1975 Tape no. 2255 Page 3 - mv The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MB.. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker• I ria.e to move that the House adopt this motion. Now this 110tion, Mr. Speaker. is to thank the s·elect Committee on the Inshore Fishery for their report. for the diligence and perception which the committee mf(!mbess brought to their task. It directs the government to investigate :IJaed:l.ately the feasibil:l.ty of implementing those recommendatiOIIS -,of the repo.tt tliat are within provincial jurisd:Lction. Now, Mr. Speaker. :lD. opeuing debate on the motion todlf.y I do not intend to be very long. 667~;

June 13, 1975 Tape No. 22 56 NM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: I will make a few preliminary remarks and then of course I would like to listen to any honourable member who has a contribution to make to the debate. And then when I speak in winding up the debate on this motion I will be able to deal with the remarks that have been made and also to discuss the recommendations in the report and what the position is on all or most of those recommendati.ons. So first, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to con~ratulate the Member for Placentia East and themembers of his committee for the hard work and the time and effort they put in their hearinis and into this report. ,OME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. CROSBIE: When the committee was appointed I said that we realize that with the time limitation that they had that there was only H certain amount they could do .

But at the primarv level several of the main reasons for having the Select Committee or askinp, the House to appoint the Select Committee was to give the inshore fishermen of the Province and those interested in the industry the chance to present their views publicly, since in the preceeding months there has been the offshore or the trawler fishery th.at: vas getting most of the public attention. It Has a 1rnhlic chance to put their views and su~~estions before the public through this Select Committee or the members of the industr y anc members of the trade and I believe, Mr.

Speaker, in that respect that the Committee was most successful. They met in many parts of the Island. They Rave the opportunity to hundreds of fishermen to apoear before therr, or.J to other groups to submit briefs,and I think that their report itself is a very workmanlike document, very many sensible recol!'l'?endations an~ they are to be con!'ratulated on it.

It was not expected,of course.thnt it could be anythinr: approachin,:: a royal commission report 1-1hich to tio proper.Ly you would have to - it would take a royal commission, i f there was one appointed, six months or a year to really stucfv and report hack •. ~nd 1 clouht, ?fr. Speaker, whether many of the recommendations ,.,o,.lrl be much ,li fferent pven if a year had teen taken. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are now ..-n~nr; to have this debate on the prohlems that face our fishery and I am goin~ to address myself just to a coup.Le of those nroblems and to the ICNAF Conference t!,at ;~ ~oi nn on 6676

June 11, l'l7.5 Tape No. 2256 NM - 2 now in Edinburrh, Scotland. The primary problem of the fishery. '.,,h ich is a5'reed I helieve on all sides now, Mr.

Speaker, is the problem of the declining resource, that the resource is dPcl.ininr, tnat the catch per unit of effort,as it is called by the economists,has been declinin~ year after year, that there are too Many people out fishinr, for the same stock of fish off the East Coast of Canada, too Many countries in the world, too many trawlers, too great an effort and of course this is reflected in our inshore fishery by the fact that fewer and fewer stocks of fish are p,ettinr inshore so that the inshore fishermen can catch them and make a l1v1nr. at fish catching and processinp.. T believe, Mr.

Speaker, that in 1973 the total catch of fish t:i1<en 1i1 tile ~orthwest Atlantic, in the area that comes under ICNAF totalled 4,500,000 tons and I believe also that the catch taken last year 1.n the same area was some 4,0IJ0,000 tons. a decline of '500,000 tons. And there is no question, µr. Speaker, that for any nation that is out there fishin)! on any economic basis, that you can no longer operate a tr1>wler in these conditions economically or in any sense of economic viahility. ~lm-1 the thin!!, Mr. Speaker - because there is too much effort for the amount of fish there is out there to be cau~ht.

The point is as far as the East Coast Canadian fishery is concerned, Mr. Speaker, is that we do not have the mobility of the foreign fishing fleets, that if the Northuest Atlantic fishery is depleted so that it becomes uneconomic or no lonr.er any p.r