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June 24, 2003

37th Parliament, 4th Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2003-Jun-24 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Tuesday 24 June 2003 Mardi 24 juin 2003

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ROGER NEILSON

SERBIAN PICNIC

MISSISSAGI RIVER DAMS

CONCERT FOR TORONTO

VOLUNTEERS

SKILLS TRAINING

AILSA CRAIG HISTORICAL SOCIETY

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

SALMON SPECTACULAR

FISHING DERBY

VISITORS

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

POLAR BEAR PROTECTION ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES OURS POLAIRES

MEGA-HOG FARM CONTROL ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE CONTRÔLE

DES GROSSES EXPLOITATIONS PORCINES

MOTIONS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

HOUSE SITTINGS

FÊTE DE LA SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE

VISITORS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

ORAL QUESTIONS

SARS

ENERGY CONSERVATION

NORTHLAND POWER

PENSION PLANS

AIR QUALITY

MORTGAGE INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY

FISCAL AND ECONOMIC POLICY

FIRE PROTECTION SERVICES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

OHIP BUILDING IN KINGSTON

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

BSE

CAPITAL TAX

MEMBER FOR RENFREW-NIPISSING-PEMBROKE

VISITORS

PETITIONS

BENEFITS FOR RETIRED WORKERS

TUITION FEES

SENIORS' PROPERTY TAX CREDIT

SERVICE DE DIALYSE

HOME CARE

SOCIAL SERVICES FUNDING

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

INSURANCE RATES

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

HOG INDUSTRY

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THE RIGHT CHOICES ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR LES BONS CHOIX

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

Tuesday 24 June 2003 Mardi 24 juin 2003

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ROGER NEILSON

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): I'm sure I speak on behalf of all members in the House; I wish to pay tribute to Roger Neilson, assistant

coach of the Ottawa Senators, who passed away on Saturday last after a long-term battle with cancer.

Roger Neilson was best known as a hockey coach. Indeed, hockey was his life. He was inducted last November into the Hockey Hall of Fame, and six weeks ago he

received the Order of Canada, Canada's highest medal of honour, from the Governor General.

As the assistant coach of the Sens he was determined to see the last game of the season through. Indeed, he saw them one goal away from the Stanley Cup finals on

April 13, the last game he coached.

During his career he coached over 1,000 NHL games, representing 10 different NHL teams.

Roger and I bonded over cancer treatment and, in particular, complementary treatments for cancer, albeit too late.

Roger Neilson was a caring man. Roger Neilson was a religious man. Roger Neilson was a teacher who ran hockey camps for youth and inspired them to perform their

best. Roger Neilson was a man who loved life. Roger Neilson was an icon.

I want to pass on my condolences, and I'm sure those of all the members in the House, to his family and to his many friends throughout the hockey world and to

his immediate family, the Ottawa Senators organization.

SERBIAN PICNIC

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): First, I'd like to thank the great member from Nipissing, the hard-working AL McDonald, for giving me his

statement space today.

Thousands of Serbians will gather this weekend to celebrate their 58th annual picnic. The event is held every year on the grounds of St George Serbian Orthodox

Church in Niagara Falls. As always, it is quite fitting that this year's picnic closely coincides with Canada Day, as the Serbian people have contributed so much to the history and development of

Canada.

An estimated 10,000 Serbs attended the event last year, with many travelling from all over Ontario as well as from US states, including Pennsylvania, Michigan

and Illinois. Some even attended from as far away as Australia.

Everyone can look forward to this magnificent weekend with traditional Serbian food, dance and music, organized by the Serbian Orthodox Church along with the

Serbian National Shield Society.

Unfortunately I am unable to attend this year's picnic, as I will be at a wedding near Montreal. I'm disappointed, because I always look forward to this weekend

each and every year, as it is a wonderful opportunity to spend time with my many friends in the local Serbian community. It is also an opportunity for me to celebrate my roots, as my grandfather on

my mother's side was Serbian.

I encourage my colleagues in the House today to inform any Serbian constituents in their ridings to look into attending this weekend's picnic in Niagara

Falls.

MISSISSAGI RIVER DAMS

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): As Yogi said, "Déjà vu all over again." It's Canada, it's summer, it's hot and the air

conditioners will be gobbling up electricity. The Eves government does not have enough electricity supply -- its $100-million worth of fossil-fuelled generators aren't ready -- but the Mississagi

River system dams are just waiting to meet the demand.

Last summer my office responded in mid-July to severe drops on Tunnel Lake. On the Saturday of the August long weekend, I spent the afternoon with stakeholders

and the Great Lakes Power company trying to get a stabilization agreement for the lake and for the river levels. GLP managers told us, "It's too late for Rocky Island Lake. We've used all the water

and there is no more, but we'll try to stabilize Tunnel Lake and the rest of the system." For most of the summer, the rest of the system was held relatively stable.

After discussions with the Ministry of Natural Resources and local stakeholders, Brascan has agreed to voluntarily hold Rocky Island Lake at reasonable levels

this summer, but we need the Eves government to commit that the publicly owned Independent Market Operator will not order the hydro stations to operate regardless of the environmental impact.

Last summer, the IMO ordered irresponsible operations on the river. Ernie Eves must commit that the river system will be operated in accordance, not with the

hopelessly inadequate existing management plan, but at least in the manner agreed to by the stakeholders.

Let's not have déjà vu all over again.

CONCERT FOR TORONTO

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): This past weekend there was an event in Toronto called the Concert for Toronto, and by all accounts it was

very successful. But the one place it was not successful was that everyone except the workers who actually work and live here had jobs at this event.

The labour was flown in from Winnipeg, the labour was flown in from Vancouver, the labour was flown in from the United States to work this concert. Twenty to 30

people who work in this city at events like Lion King and Mamma Mia, who are facing layoffs, were not given an opportunity to work. It is also clear that the big videotrons that were at the

locations were American -- they came from Clear Channel -- and those workers were also flown in from California to operate them, even though we have the facility to do it here. This was a $150,000

contract alone that was given to Clear Channel, and about 20 workers there as well did not get jobs in rigging, in labour and in cameras.

We're going to have the Rolling Stones concert here in, I guess, about another six weeks. I would suggest that the government of Ontario and the government of

Canada do everything possible to ensure that the workers who are capable of putting on that show get first crack at the jobs and that they not be brought in from other locations. If the people here

truly want to help those who are hurting because of SARS, at least give them the opportunity to do the work.

VOLUNTEERS

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): I am deeply honoured to have this opportunity to recognize the extraordinary voluntary service of five

dedicated members of the St John Ambulance, Mississauga Branch. These five individuals each gave in excess of 1,000 hours of voluntary service in 2002. This is truly an amazing achievement when,

these days, there are so many competing pressures on everyone's personal time.

David Yam, the divisional superintendent, donated an incredible 2,785 hours of his personal time as leader of the patient care volunteer division. Andrew Ling,

who covered mostly weekday and daytime duty requests, gave 1,863 hours as a patient care volunteer. Chris Shim, who donated 1,536 hours, not only provided first aid service at public events but

also edited the division's electronic newsletter for its members. Augosto da Silva gave 1,311 hours as a patient care volunteer and was also very involved with the recruitment and orientation of

new volunteers. Finally, Michael Thomas donated 1,011 hours developing the Erindale campus response team at University of Toronto at Mississauga and providing first aid duties at public events.

There are simply no adequate words to thank these exceptional individuals who volunteered what would have been between 29 and 80 standard work weeks to

St John Ambulance in a single year. You are all our heroes. Our whole community salutes your monumental efforts.

SKILLS TRAINING

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (Vaughan-King-Aurora): Everyone who knows anything about the construction industry knows that the shortage of skilled

trades is the most urgent problem facing the industry today. Presumably, that is why two years ago, the government introduced the strategic skills investment program, a program to use public funds

to leverage private sector investment in a wide variety of training initiatives. Presumably, that is why 18 months ago, the government awarded $1.8 million to the joint apprenticeship and training

trust fund of local 27 of the carpenters' union. The investment represented public participation in a $7-million-plus investment by the private sector in a state-of-the-art training centre for

carpenters.

Last September, Minister Flaherty, the minister responsible for the program, and I were centre stage with local 27 and the fund at the groundbreaking ceremony

for the new building that will house the training centre. It's in my riding of Vaughan-King-Aurora. The ceremony was a great photo opportunity for the minister. But since that time, the minister

and his ministry have done whatever they could to avoid signing a final agreement with the training trust fund. Despite dozens of meetings and a series of amendments, the minister has not acted, no

deal has been signed and no investment has been made. This shell game has got to stop and it's got to stop today. Construction of the facility is almost complete. Equipping it depends upon the

minister honouring his commitment --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the member's time is up.

AILSA CRAIG HISTORICAL SOCIETY

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I rise today to tell my fellow members about the Ailsa Craig and District Historical Society and the grand

opening of its new location. The historical society has moved its collection of artefacts into the former Ailsa Craig Baptist Church, which has been renamed the Donald Hughes Annex, in recognition

of Mr Hughes's generous donation of the building.

The former Baptist church was restored for this purpose with the help of a $57,600 grant from the Ontario Trillium Foundation. I'm pleased to see our government

invest in this kind of local museum which enhances the quality of life for the residents of small communities like Ailsa Craig.

This group was started in 1996 by 12 individuals interested in preserving their local history. There are now more than 100 members who, by last year, had raised

almost $100,000. Those funds cover the operating expenses of the museum and pay the mortgage on their existing location in the former Ailsa Craig Trinity United Church, which will now be converted

into a chapel and meeting hall.

The efforts of this group will ensure that the history of this area and the lifestyles of those early settlers in rural Ontario are preserved for future

generations.

The grand opening of the newly renovated annex will be held this coming weekend, and I look forward to taking a tour and learning a bit more about the rich

history of this part of my riding.

GOVERNMENT'S RECORD

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): The session is coming to an end, so I thought I would update members and our friends watching at home on

the government's record this session.

First of all, the federal House of Commons has sat for 73 days. Do you know how many days the provincial House will have sat this year? Just 34, less than half

the federal House.

Here's another interesting fact: in their platform, the Tories promised to make legislative committees more effective and meaningful. How many committee hearings

have we had on a government bill? Was it 10, nine, eight? No, none. Nada. Zero. Not one day of committee hearings from a government that in its platform promises more hearings.

All the members of my party are familiar with ending mandatory retirement, and we support that. Is this bill going to get passed? No, it's not going to get

passed because we've had no debate on it. We've had no committee hearings on it. This government's all talk on that issue and no action. Have they called it for second reading? No. Have they sent

it for debate? No. Have they sent it to committee? No. Will they try to pass it with meaningful hearings, meaningful debate? No; they won't get it. The House never sits, committees never debate

bills and the government's promises languish.

It's time for change in Ontario. It's time for Dalton McGuinty and an Ontario Liberal government.

SALMON SPECTACULAR

FISHING DERBY

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I rise in the House today to inform my fellow colleagues and their friends of an upcoming event in my

riding of Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound. The 16th Annual Salmon Spectacular Fishing Derby will take place August 22 to August 31 on the waters of Owen Sound and Colpoy's Bay.

The derby is put on by the Sydenham Sportsmen's Association, which will utilize over 350 volunteer members and volunteer sponsors.

The 10-day event is one of the largest and longest-running fishing derbies across North America. This year, virtually every day is filled with special events

packed with activities for the whole family.

On both Saturdays, enjoy the Molson's Monster Fish Fries, where we are proud to serve between 2,000 and 4,000 hungry friends who travel miles to partake in the

annual event.

Numerous prizes are awarded daily and various musical talent will be ready to entertain folks in the evenings. There will be designated days for children and

seniors, and it is anticipated that Elvis will be stopping by again. The festivities will finish up on Sunday as $125,000 in prizes are given away to our best anglers.

All the money raised by the Salmon Spectacular goes toward helping fishery conservation projects, including operating the club's salmon and trout hatcheries.

I invite all of you to come up to Owen Sound for a great time and to support the 16th Annual Salmon Spectacular Fishing Derby. I know you've been there, Mr

Speaker.

VISITORS

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I wonder if the members might join me in welcoming a large group

from the area I represent, the Carefirst Seniors and Community Association.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We welcome our guests.

We also have today in the Speaker's gallery Mr John Quirke, the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly of Nunavut. Please join me in welcoming our very special

guest.

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: You would probably have noticed a few polar bears sitting on desks.

I would ask unanimous consent that one be distributed to each member in this House and also to the pages.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? Agreed? Agreed. If I could, for all members, ask that we ask for unanimous consent before we put them

on the desks. In this case, I'm sure no one would --

Interjections.

The Speaker: I never thought of that. Actually, they could be tossed. I would ask all members to ask for unanimous consent before they do it in

the future, just because it does make for difficulty for the staff. They are instructed not to put anything on, regardless if it's something very interesting like this, or it could be more

controversial. So I would ask for that in the future. The member does have unanimous consent.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: As members would know, Polar Bear Provincial Park is in my riding and I

support what the member is trying to do. But I just want to point out that if these were all black bears and they would be down here, we wouldn't have them in our backyards in Timmins. If you could

have the black bears come down, we'll be happy.

The Speaker: We can even make statements about polar bears.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I thank you for this opportunity. I would like to ask for unanimous

consent to declare Ontario's second smog day of summer 2003 Smog Day Clement. Can I have consent for that?

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would ask for unanimous consent to have permission to have

the Franco-Ontarian flag on members' desks since it is Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day today.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? Agreed? Agreed.

I thank the member for asking before it was on there, although I think it was on.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): I beg leave to present the report on corporations tax from the standing committee on public

accounts and move the adoption of its recommendations.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Mr Gerretsen presents the committee report and moves the adoption of its recommendations.

Does the member wish to make a brief statement?

Mr Gerretsen: The report has 12 recommendations, and I'll just highlight a few of them. It states that, "The Ministry of Finance should report

... on the success of electronic filings for corporate tax returns and the action taken to provide a corporate education program to encourage this approach for large and small corporations."

It also should report "on the administrative procedures implemented to ensure timely and accurate updates on information added to the tax roll and corporate

information profiles."

Finally, it "should develop procedures to ensure that accounts are not closed without meeting all of the established criteria. Specifically, an account should

not be closed unless it has been determined that the corporation is inactive and not in arrears while still registered as active with the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services."

It should also report "on the progress made under its follow-up initiative to address the backlog of corporations in default of filing tax returns."

There are 12 good recommendations that we hope the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services will not only take under

consideration but will actually implement. With that, I move adjournment of the debate.

The Speaker: Mr Gerreten moves the adjournment of the debate. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Gerretsen: The standing committee on public accounts has been very active because we have another report to present on the training

division of the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities. I move the adoption of its recommendations.

Interjection: You're Chair of this committee. You work hard.

The Speaker: Mr Gerretsen presents the committee report and moves the adoption of the recommendations.

Does the member wish to make a brief statement?

Mr Gerretsen: I hear my colleague here saying, "The Chairman works very hard." I will tell you, all the committee members on all sides of the

House work very hard on this committee.

There are five recommendations in this report. It states, amongst others, that "the ministry should review current legislation to ensure it allows flexibility

for potential apprentices to gain some initial experience in a trade without registering."

It should also "ensure that all third-party agencies are fully aware of and follow prudent purchasing and project management practices, as is required by the

Ministry of Management Board of Cabinet, and that it report to the committee within 120 days of the tabling of this document with the Speaker on the literacy and basic skills system's costs and

effectiveness."

With that, I move adjournment of the debate.

The Speaker: Mr Gerretsen moves the adjournment of the debate. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

VISITORS

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Northern Development and Mines, Minister of the Environment): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: In a follow-up to

yesterday concerning the Baulke family in Collingwood, Ryan Baulke is one of our pages here and his father Tom was a page in the early 1970s. Today, a friend of the family is visiting in the

gallery, Anson MacKeracher; Ryan's mother, Laurie Baulke; and his grandmother, Norma Judges. Welcome.

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): On a point of order, Mr speaker: I know that everyone in the assembly today

would like to welcome Cathy Splinter, from Amherstview. Cathy is the mother of our page Sarah Splinter.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

POLAR BEAR PROTECTION ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES OURS POLAIRES

Mrs Mushinski moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 122,

An Act to provide protection for polar bears / Projet de loi 122, Loi visant à protéger les ours polaires.

Interjection: Did you say "bear" or "Baird"?

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): As my mother would say, if you give it to one, you have to give it to everyone.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): This bill requires a person to have a licence issued by the minister responsible for the

administration of the bill in order to possess a polar bear or to export or attempt to export a polar bear from Ontario. The bill sets out standards for the care and treatment of polar bears for

which a person holds a licence.

I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce Dr William Rapley and Dr David Barney, who are both from the Metropolitan Toronto Zoo and take care of Inukshuk,

our little orphan polar bear.

MEGA-HOG FARM CONTROL ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE CONTRÔLE

DES GROSSES EXPLOITATIONS PORCINES

Mr Lalonde moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 123,

An Act to control mega-hog farms / Projet de loi 123, Loi visant à contrôler les grosses exploitations porcines.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All in favour will please say "aye."

All opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it. Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): The bill deems mega hog farms to be identified as industrial for the purposes of the

official plan of the municipality where the farm is located. Owners of mega hog farms are required to ensure that an environmental assessment is completed. The operation of a megafarm is not a

normal farm practice under the Farming and Food Production Protection Act.

After watching 60 Minutes on CBS last Sunday, we should all support this bill for second and third reading.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 110,

An Act

to amend the Employment Standards Act, so that every worker can have a long weekend this July 1 weekend.

The Speaker: Same point of order, Minister?

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr

Speaker: We were amicable, but now we all have to come back to work on Monday.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

I'm afraid I heard some noes.

MOTIONS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): I move that the standing

committee on public accounts be authorized to release any reports during the upcoming recess by depositing them with the Clerk of the House.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Agreed? Agreed.

HOUSE SITTINGS

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): I move that, notwithstanding

the order of the House dated Monday, June 2, 2003, pursuant to standing order 9(c)(ii), the House shall meet from 6:45 pm to 12:00 am on Tuesday, June 24, 2003, for the purpose of considering

government business.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Mr Baird has moved that, notwithstanding standing order --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Speaker: Dispense?

Interjections.

The Speaker: You'd like to hear it? Mr Baird moves that, notwithstanding the order of the House dated Monday, June 2, 2003, pursuant to

standing order 9(c)(ii), the House shall meet from 6:45 pm to 12:00 am on Tuesday, June 24, 2003, for the purpose of considering government business.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1401 to 1406.

The Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Bartolucci, Rick

Beaubien, Marcel

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Bradley, James J.

Bryant, Michael

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Cleary, John C.

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

DeFaria, Carl

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Galt, Doug

Gerretsen, John

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Hardeman, Ernie

Hodgson, Chris

Hoy, Pat

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Klees, Frank

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Mazzilli, Frank

McDonald, AL

McLeod, Lyn

McMeekin, Ted

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Murdoch, Bill

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Patten, Richard

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Runciman, Robert W.

Ruprecht, Tony

Sampson, Rob

Sergio, Mario

Sorbara, Greg

Spina, Joseph

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Bisson, Gilles

Churley, Marilyn

Hampton, Howard

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Martel, Shelley

Prue, Michael

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 75; the nays are 7.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

FÊTE DE LA SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE

L'hon John R. Baird (ministre de l'Énergie, ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones, leader parlementaire du

gouvernement): Je demande le consentement unanime pour permettre des déclarations à l'occasion de la fête de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste, et que celles-ci se limitent à

trois minutes par parti ainsi qu'à trois minutes pour la députée indépendante.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Une voix.

L'hon M. Baird: Oui, Norman Sterling a appuyé fortement la résolution.

Je vous remercie, monsieur le Président. J'aimerais prendre quelques minutes pour rendre hommage à la communauté francophone en cette

journée de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste.

Comme plusieurs d'entre vous le savent sans doute, la Saint-Jean-Baptiste est un jour où tous les francophones d'un océan à l'autre

célèbrent leur héritage culturel. C'est une journée au cours de laquelle les gens parlent de leurs réalisations et pensent à leur avenir avec espoir.

La fête de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste remonte à l'époque où le christianisme commençait à s'implanter en France. La fête a

début du 17 e siècle. Il s'agit donc d'une journée spéciale qui vise à reconnaître les belles qualités de la communauté francophone.

Depuis ma nomination en tant que ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones, j'ai eu l'occasion de rencontrer des francophones de tous les

âges et de tous les milieux, partout en province. Ces gens sont entièrement dévoués à la préservation de leur langue, et avec raison, puisque la diversité

culturelle a fait de l'Ontario un meilleur endroit pour tous et enrichit notre façon de vivre.

un investissement dans le Fonds d'aide à la petite enfance veillant à la création de programmes pour le développement des jeunes enfants.

La semaine dernière, le gouvernement a donné 200,000 $ à Destination Nord pour la promotion du nord-est de l'Ontario en tant que

destination touristique intéressante pour le marché francophone.

La présence francophone en Ontario remonte à plus de 350 ans. La Saint-Jean-Baptiste est l'occasion idéale pour exprimer notre appréciation

de la grande contribution des francophones à la société. La communauté francophone de l'Ontario constitue la majorité des francophones hors Québec au Canada.

J'aimerais souligner la présence des francophones et leur importante contribution à notre culture et à notre économie. Je vous invite donc

à vous joindre à moi pour souhaiter à tous les francophones une joyeuse fête de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste.

de la population francophone et compte bien le préserver pour les générations futures.

M. Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): C'est un honneur pour moi de souligner aujourd'hui cette grande fête, la fête de

la Saint-Jean-Baptiste, le patron de tous les francophones de cette planète.

La fête de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste était celébrée tous les 24 juin bien avant qu'elle devienne la fête nationale des Québecois.

À l'époque, des peuples païens célébraient le solstice d'été par un grand feu de joie, symbolisant la lumière qui était à l'apogée. Puis la

France catholique a conservé la tradition du feu de joie pour célébrer la naissance du saint Jean-Baptiste.

de France allumait le feu de la Saint-Jean. Évidemment, la tradition a continué en Nouvelle-France, où il y a eu les premiers défilés.

régiment de Carillon, souvent appelé le drapeau fleurdelisé, qui avait était témoin de la victoire de Montcalm.

Cette année, les festivités de la Saint-Jean pour l'Ontario ont débuté vendredi soir dernier dans ma circonscription, plus

précisément dans la communauté de Casselman. Nous avons pu assister au festival l'Écho d'un peuple, suivi par le défilé de la Saint-Jean dimanche dernier. Des milliers

de personnes y assistaient et ce fut un immense succès. J'aimerais féliciter et remercier ses organisateurs, l'équipe de Francoscénie et les centaines de bénévoles qui

ont travaillé depuis plusieurs mois pour assurer le succès de cette grande fête.

Les gens ont pu, entre autres, revivre des coutumes d'autrefois en y participant à travers de nombreux spectacles et activités jamais vus dans la

région. Chapeau haut à Sylvain Charlebois et toute son équipe.

Ontario, il jouit du statut de langue officielle devant les tribunaux, dans l'éducation et à l'Assemblée législative.

À ne pas oublier : le 21 juin 2001, l'Assemblée législative de l'Ontario a officiellement reconnu l'emblème de la communauté

francophone de l'Ontario par son drapeau, qui est devenu le septième emblème officiel de la province.

La vie culturelle et communautaire francophone bouillonne en Ontario. Aujourd'hui, je souhaite bonne fête de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste à vous tous et

Je suis fier d'être Canadien, je suis fier d'être Ontarien et je suis grandement fier d'être Franco-Ontarien.

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): Je suis francophone et je suis fier. Aujourd'hui, c'est la journée où tous les francophones

autour du monde, un milliard de francophones dans quelque 60 pays, ont a la chance de se rappeler de toutes les luttes qu'on a eues comme francophones à travers nos juridictions. Ici en

Ontario, on sait que cela n'a pas toujours été facile. Les francophones ont fallu se battre pour avoir les services, le peu de services que l'on a en place. Mais le message qu'on

amène comme communauté aujourd'hui à travers cette province est qu'il y a encore beaucoup de travail à faire, et la communauté francophone va continuer dans la direction de

Aujourd'hui, on a eu l'occasion, avec mes collègues M. Prue et M. Marchese, d'hisser officiellement le drapeau franco-ontarien ici devant

l'Assemblée. C'est une cérémonie qui a eu lieu à travers la province. On sait que dans des communautés comme Kapuskasing, Timmins, Hearst et autres à travers la

province ils ont eu l'occasion de faire de même.

J'ai demandé aujourd'hui au ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones que, officiellement, on assure que le drapeau franco-ontarien ne

soit pas hissé seulement une fois par année devant l'Assemblée législative mais, autrement, que l'on hisse ce drapeau pour 365 jours par année. Je vais le demander un peu

plus tard cet après-midi, une fois que les déclarations seront finies, pour avoir cette déclaration unanime. J'espère que le gouvernement va l'approuver.

L'autre point que j'ai à faire, M. le Président, comme j'ai dit au début : pour les francophones cela n'a pas toujours été

facile. Il y a encore beaucoup de services que l'on a besoin d'aller chercher. Moi, je suis fier d'être membre du Parti néo-démocratique, le seul parti dans la province d'avoir

officiellement un programme pour les francophones dans notre campagne électorale et dans notre programme électoral qui va avoir lieu pour les élections à venir. On comprend,

comme néo-démocrates, qu'il est important que les francophones ne se fassent pas simplement dire qu'ils sont les bienvenus, mais que les programmes sont là; qu'il est important

d'avoir des centres de santé communautaires à travers la province où les francophones peuvent aller rechercher des services dont ils ont besoin, de s'assurer qu'à travers le

système de santé, on répond aux besoins de la communauté, de s'assurer que le système juridique répond bien aux besoins des francophones de cette province et autres

services que l'on connaît tous.

Avec ça, je demanderais le consentement unanime que l'Assemblée déclare que le drapeau franco-ontarien soit hissé pour 365 jours, pour tous

les jours de l'année à l'Assemblée.

M me Claudette Boyer (Ottawa-Vanier): C'est avec fierté et enthousiasme que je m'adresse à l'Assemblée

l'autre de ce grand pays et, bien sûr, la fête des Franco-Ontariennes et Franco-Ontariens.

C'est avec fierté que nous voulons aujourd'hui célébrer cette fête avec tous les francophones du Canada.

Aujourd'hui, tous les francophone des l'Ontario, qu'ils habitent Toronto ou Ottawa, Thunder Bay, Sudbury ou Pointe-aux-Roches, des petits villages, des grandes

municipalités urbaines, oui, tous les Francos, célèbrent ensemble la fête de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste. Que ce soient des festivals, des parades, des concerts en plein air, des

soupers de campagne, des rencontres de famille, le coeur est à la fête. Toutes ces activités donnent une saveur de grande fête et de retrouvailles à des milliers de

Comme je suis fière de pouvoir me lever en Assemblée législative aujourd'hui et proclamer bien haut mon appartenance à cette grande

communauté de Franco-Canadiens et Franco-Canadiennes, et plus particulièrement de Franco-Ontariens et Franco-Ontariennes. Je suis fière de ma langue, fière de ma culture,

fière de mon drapeau, reconnu comme emblème officiel de l'Ontario, ce drapeau que nous avons hissé ce midi devant l'édifice de l'Assemblée législative.

C'est bien en l'an 2001 que cette Assemblée législative a reconnu officiellement le drapeau franco-ontarien en signe de la reconnaissance officielle

de la communauté francophone de l'Ontario et qu'il a été hissé pour la première fois à la vue de tous et de toutes. Toute la communauté francophone s'en

réjouit.

Je suis aussi fière de reconnaître les 500 000 et plus de francophones que nous sommes en Ontario qui contribuent à faire de cette province

une province forte aux points de vue social, culturel et économique.

Depuis les débuts de cette province, les Franco-Ontariens et Franco-Ontariennes ont contribué à la vitalité de notre province et ils

Nous célébrons aujourd'hui et je m'en réjouis. Nous célébrons notre fête, notre drapeau, notre francophonie, quoi. Mais j'ose

cependant répéter le v_u que j'ai déjà exprimé devant cette assemblée et que plusieurs de nous caressons depuis longtemps. Nous rêvons tous et toutes du jour

où la pleine reconnaissance de notre communauté franco-ontarienne sera complète. Je parle du jour où nos droits seront officiellement reconnus dans la constitution canadienne.

C'est ce que je désire de toutes mes énergies, de tout mon coeur.

activités.

The Speaker: The member for Timmins-James Bay on a point of order.

M. Bisson: Je demande le consentement unanime que le drapeau franco-ontarien soit hissé 365 jours à l'Assemblée.

The Speaker: The member has requested that the Franco-Ontario flag be flown in front of the Ontario Legislature for 365 days. Same point of

order, Minister?

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): I'm certainly very excited

about that idea and I look forward to discussing it with the member in the House leaders' meeting on Thursday.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I'm asking for unanimous consent to have second and third reading of

Bill 39,

An Act to restrict the operation of large hog farms and to amend the Nutrient Management Act, 2002.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Just before we continue, joining us in the Speaker's gallery today are four Ontarians, here to receive the

internationally recognized medal of la francophonie, l'ordre de la Pléiade, for their outstanding contribution to French-speaking communities in the province. They are Liliane Beauchamp,

Marcel Bourassa, Gilles LeVasseur and Pascal Sabourin. Please join me in welcoming our distinguished guests.

The member for Toronto-Danforth first on a point of order, and then I'll get to the other members.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): Mr Speaker, I ask for second and third readings of Bill 36,

An Act to protect sources of drinking water

in Ontario.

The Speaker: You're seeking unanimous consent?

Ms Churley: Unanimous consent.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I heard some noes.

Mr Gregory S. Sorbara (Vaughan-King-Aurora): On a point of order, Speaker: I want to take this opportunity to welcome the city of Brampton's

budget chief, Councillor Linda Jeffrey, to the Legislature. She is here today checking out the operation of this place, and I want everyone to join me in welcoming her to the gallery.

Ms Churley: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I ask for unanimous consent to have third reading of Bill 16,

An Act to amend the Vital

Statistics Act and the Child and Family Services Act in respect of adoption disclosure.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Ms Churley: On a different point of order, Speaker: I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome students from the Jones adult learning centre

in my riding of Toronto-Danforth.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): I move that one member from

each party from the standing committee on public accounts be authorized to attend the 24th annual conference of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

ORAL QUESTIONS

SARS

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My first questions today are for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. On the matter of securing

SARS relief funding from the federal government, I think Ontarians have come to the conclusion there has been a lot of finger pointing, name-calling and blame-laying, with very poor results at the

end of the day.

I have for you, Minister, a positive, constructive proposal. I will give the page here a copy of a motion that I tabled in this House yesterday. This motion

would require, quite simply, that the House require the Provincial Auditor to conduct an assessment of the real and actual costs connected with SARS, now and anticipated, so we could then make a

better case before the federal government.

I think this is a positive, constructive proposal. It's better than name-calling and blame-laying. Will you support this motion, Minister?

Hon David Young (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): For a very long period of time, many of us in this province have suspected that

Mr McGuinty is nothing more than an apologist for the federal Liberals.

Today he comes forward in this Legislative Assembly, after having --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. I understand everybody is getting heated. The Minister of Municipal Affairs has the floor, please.

Hon Mr Young: For a very long period of time, many in this province, including many on this side of the Legislature, have suspected that you,

sir, are nothing more than an apologist for the federal Liberals. Today, beyond any doubt, you have demonstrated that is so.

You, sir, have today called into question the integrity of the doctors, nurses and health care professionals across this province. You, sir, have taken --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The minister will get his time. We'll just wait.

We've lost the time, so we'll let the minister continue. Minister.

Hon Mr Young: You, sir, Mr McGuinty, have called into question the credibility and the integrity of individuals like Dr James Young, who is an

internationally respected health care professional. All of those individuals understand that this province has faced an extraordinary challenge over the last 100-plus days, and you are prepared to

discard all that in the interests of supporting your federal cousins.

The federal Liberals have abandoned this province through this crisis, and you are nowhere to be seen. You are missing in action, just like you --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Stop the clock.

Supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, you may measure success on behalf of the people of Ontario in terms of the number of names you call the federal

government, in terms of the number of times you point the finger of blame, in terms of the number of times you engage in partisan rhetoric. We measure it in terms of how much money you're getting

for our province, and you're not getting enough money for our province. You are failing miserably when it comes to securing our justifiable funding here in the province of Ontario.

Here's the way we can strengthen our case before the federal government: rather than the federal government suggesting that you are highballing and you

suggesting that the federal government is lowballing, why can't we get the Provincial Auditor to weigh in, to conduct a careful review, tell us exactly what the costs are and then let's present

that case to the federal government? Why won't you support that motion?

Interjections.

The Speaker: Just before we begin, I usually warn people. I'm not going to warn people. Everybody is warned. I'm going to start throwing

people out. I'm going to throw you out in groups. We're not going to continue yelling and screaming across. Be forewarned, there's going to be no more warning. I'm going to pick two and three out

at a time, and if there's nobody left here, so be it.

Both sides can ask and answer the questions. You've got a minister and the leader of the official opposition that the people want to hear who can answer very

well for both sides and ask the questions. If there's any more noise where I have to stand up again, I'm not going to do it. We've got three days left. I'm not going to stand up here and get in

between you guys when you're yelling and screaming names across from each other. I'm not going to do it; I'm going to toss you out. We're almost at 50. If we go over 50 as my record as Speaker, so

be it.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Hon Mr Young: The only two people in this country who don't believe that SARS is a billion-dollar, life-and-death issue are John McCallum and

Dalton McGuinty.

On not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six occasions, but seven occasions, we presented the federal government with proof that this issue was

costing the people of this province over a billion dollars, but more importantly, we have lost 38 of our friends, neighbours and relatives to this deadly killer. Over 30,000 people have been

quarantined, and yet you aren't prepared to stand up on behalf of the people of this province and agree with us that this is a disaster.

You of course see no hypocrisy in the fact that the same federal Liberal government was prepared to say that the ice storm in Quebec --

The Speaker: The minister's going to have to withdraw that, please.

Hon Mr Young: I withdraw the term "hypocrisy."

You see nothing wrong with the federal government that is prepared to flow hundreds of millions of dollars --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up as well.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, when it comes to securing our fair share of disaster relief, the approach that you are bringing is a disaster itself.

We're not getting our fair share of funding. You're not prepared to go about it in a responsible manner on behalf of the people of Ontario.

You have failed us. You failed to ensure that our health care system had the necessary surge capacity in the first instance. You failed to flow the money to

our hospitals and public health units in the aftermath of SARS. And now you tell us that addressing this issue, this disaster, is your single greatest priority, but on the other hand, you continue

to maintain you're going to put $3.2 billion into tax breaks for corporations.

Why can we not do something that is intelligent and responsible so that we can secure funding from the federal government? Let's put this out in the hands of

an independent person, the Provincial Auditor, have him take a look at the numbers, have him make a genuine and real assessment, and then let's give that to the federal government. We will

strengthen our case and we can then get our fair share from the federal government.

Hon Mr Young: To the leader of the provincial Liberal Party, this isn't really that complicated, sir. We want to be treated just as the people

of Quebec were treated when they had the ice storm. We want to be treated in Ontario just the way the people of Manitoba were treated when they had the floods. We want to be treated just the way

the community of Oka was treated when they had a crisis there. We want the disaster relief funding to apply to us. We are prepared to apply that principle, that template to our funding.

You know we have paid in excess of a billion dollars to support doctors and nurses and to support individuals through a compensation program. When you were

asked by Minister Clement on numerous occasions to sign a letter in support of the people of Ontario, you were missing in action. You were nowhere to be seen.

Back on Friday, you put out a press release that agreed with me, I say with respect. You said the federal offer was woefully inadequate, which of course it

was. It was a pittance. It was an insult. Then today you're standing up saying, "Why aren't we accepting it? Why aren't we taking their reasonable offer?" You have to be consistent. This is too

important to play politics with.

I say to you, Mr McGuinty and all the Liberals, come join with us, come act on behalf of the people of this province. We are getting --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up. New question.

ENERGY CONSERVATION

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My next questions are for the Minister of Energy. Today, we've had it confirmed that the Bruce

A nuclear reactor will not be operational by the end of June, as originally anticipated. That means another 750 megawatts of power will not be available to us, will not be on the grid. This bad

news follows on the heels of yet more delays in restarting the Pickering A nuclear reactors; and the portable emergency generators, which you so warmly embrace, will now not be operating until

July.

We now find ourselves in the midst of our very first heat wave. The Premier himself has said that the grid is being put to the test. With the risk of blackouts

and brownouts being very real for the first time in the history of this province, can you tell us why your Web site doesn't give consumers a single tip on how to conserve electricity?

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): We believe that conservation is

an important strategy in Ontario. We've come forward with some substantial initiatives to promote conservation. We've had more than 50,000 people apply through our appliance rebate program to have

energy-efficient appliances, which can do a lot to reduce demand. That's good for our electricity system, it's good for the environment and it's good for the pocketbook.

We've announced that we'll be forming a task force on conservation and new supply. That will be coming very shortly, which I think will provide more good news

to the people of Ontario. We think that's important. We're bringing a substantial amount of new, clean green energy on to the grid. Since last summer, we've increased that by 500 megawatts with a

new plant that's opened in Sarnia. We've increased that with 800 megawatts of new, clean non-emission power from Bruce. That's good news to the people of Ontario. That's not enough. We're going to

continue to work on having more conservation initiatives and more green energy.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, I wonder if you understand just how very real the crisis is that we're facing. There's a very real possibility,

according to the Premier himself, that we're going to run short of power. You yourself cannot guarantee us that we're not going to run short of power.

When it comes to patting yourself on the back, you've spent $250 million on partisan political, self-promotional government advertising. You've got brochures

for everything that are coming to our doorsteps on a regular basis. Why is it there is not a single tip available on the Web site? As a result of the mess you've put us in, we're going to have to

harness the goodwill and interest of the people of Ontario when it comes to dealing with this crisis. We could do things like encouraging people to close their blinds; asking them to do their

laundry early in the morning or later at night, turn off unnecessary appliances or defrost food in the fridge instead of in a microwave. These things sound small and petty in themselves, but if

many of us do those kinds of things, if we do the equivalent in our businesses, we can reduce energy needs by 5% to 10%. And 10% is the equivalent of five nuclear reactors; 5% is the equivalent of

two and a half nuclear reactors. Why are you doing nothing to ask Ontarians to help us so we can work together to face this crisis?

Hon Mr Baird: I take the issue of conservation very seriously. We've committed -- and our action plan will be coming forward in the coming

days -- to move forward on a major public education campaign.

For the Leader of the Opposition, the member for Ottawa South, to stand in his place and give anyone lectures about self-serving advertising -- this is the man

who spent $25,000 of the taxpayers' money at Bill Clinton's campaign school in Chicago. This is the leader who spent $25,000 of taxpayers' money to try to have an image makeover. That is an

outrage. That is a disgrace. He should pay the money back.

Mr McGuinty: Two words in reply to that: Gord Haugh. Maybe a third word: $300,000. You may want to keep that in mind.

You may choose to whistle while you walk by this blackout and brownout graveyard, but I think you're being unfair to the people of Ontario. There's a very real

possibility that we're going to run short of electricity this summer. I think it's important to be straight with the people of Ontario. I think it's important to enlist them in the cause of

conserving energy. There is not a single tip to be found on your Web site that helps Ontarians better understand what they can do in their homes and in their businesses to reduce electricity demand

in Ontario. You have had over $250 million to pat yourself on the back when it comes to self-congratulatory ads and brochures that you distribute to our doorsteps. I ask you again, given that this

crisis is so real and so serious, why is there not a single tip to be found on your Web site that would encourage Ontarians to reduce, in practical ways, their demand on electricity in Ontario?

Hon Mr Baird: As I've indicated to the Leader of the Opposition, we believe conservation is important. We've brought forward a range of tax

incentives to encourage businesses to convert their equipment to energy-efficient electricity consumption. We think that's important. We brought in a program where more than 50,000 people in

Ontario are turning to energy-efficient appliances. We think that's good news to the people of Ontario. We believe we can do more. We believe more can be done, and we'll be coming forward with a

major initiative. I'm sure when we do, he'll complain that we're not spending enough with respect to promoting conservation. Whenever we do, he'll probably complain that we're spending too much on

advertising.

NORTHLAND POWER

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Deputy Premier. Today, when your energy minister can't guarantee that there's

enough hydroelectricity to keep the lights on, we've discovered that another private company that is supposed to provide temporary emergency power has a very cozy financial relationship with the

Conservative Party. Kingston CoGen is controlled by Northland Power, and Northland Power has conveniently contributed $57,000 to the Conservative Party. This now brings the dirty donor list to

$175,000. So while Ontario citizens breathe polluted air and wait to see if the lights will stay on, the Conservative Party got $175,000; your private power corporate friends got $100 million, even

though they're not producing electricity yet. People have to be concerned about whether the lights will stay on.

Deputy Premier, why did you put the Conservative Party and your private power corporate friends ahead of the health and safety of Ontario citizens?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I'm going to refer that to the Minister of Energy.

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Energy, Minister responsible for francophone affairs, Government House Leader): The RFP process that we

followed was free from political interference. In his question, the member opposite brought forward no evidence to suggest otherwise. There's a reason for that: he doesn't have any. I believe the

member for Kenora-Rainy River, the leader of the third party, to be an honourable person. I believe him to be someone of integrity. I find it regrettable, disappointing and quite frankly beneath

the dignity of any member of this place to engage -- and the member for Toronto-Danforth smiles when an issue of the integrity of all elected officials is in question. Those types of questions,

that type of laugh and that type of smirk are regrettable.

I would like to be very clear: nothing that the honourable member has said -- nothing -- is true.

Mr Hampton: Minister, I suggest that you merely need to look at the documents. This is your request for proposals for temporary emergency

power. What do we find on page 1? On page 1, it says that we need the power "commencing on or about June 1, 2003." Then we go over to page 7, and it mentions the earliest anticipated date for

in-service capacity. That means being ready to provide power.

You paid $100 million to these companies, and if you look at the list of companies, they contributed $175,000 to the Conservative Party.

The people of Ontario are breathing dirty air because the coal-fired stations have to run full blast. The people of Ontario have to wait and see if the lights

are going to stay on. I don't see where the people of Ontario benefited from this at all. They're not getting the power, they're breathing dirty air and they don't know if the lights are going to

stay on, but the Conservative Party got $175,000 from the same corporations that get $100 million of public money but aren't producing any power.

I ask you the question again: why did you put the interests of the Conservative Party and your private power corporate friends ahead of the health and safety

of Ontario citizens?

Hon Mr Baird: For the leader of the third party to stand in his place and suggest that any member of this House on either side would put

political interests ahead of the health and safety of any individual in the province of Ontario -- I know the honourable leader of the third party doesn't believe that. I know he couldn't suggest

that any honourable member of this House would suggest that. He's playing politics. Those type of tactics are sleazy gutter politics, and I want nothing to do with them.

Mr Hampton: Minister, let me remind you that there are hundreds of thousands of people across this province who have medical equipment where

they need an assured supply of electricity. If the electricity isn't there, the medical equipment doesn't work and people's health and safety are at risk. It is that simple.

You had other alternatives. We suggested to you over two months ago that what you needed to do was to implement an across-the-province energy conservation and

electricity efficiency program now. We suggested how you do it: offer low-interest loans so that you could get the energy-inefficient refrigerators out of people's homes, put in new ones that are

energy-efficient and reduce the electricity consumption by over three quarters. You didn't do that. We suggested to you other energy efficiency moves you could put in place. You didn't do that.

What did you do? You gave your private power corporate friends $100 million. They gave the Conservative Party $175,000, and the people of Ontario don't have

electricity.

Why did you put the interests of the Conservative Party and your private power friends ahead of the health and safety of Ontario residents?

Hon Mr Baird: I even notice that some of the members of his own caucus don't subscribe to that type of gutter politics.

We're taking a number of initiatives to clean Ontario's air. We're the first government that brought in vehicle emissions testing. Some 50% of our smog is

caused by cars. If you had felt so strongly that that was important, you would have brought in vehicle emissions testing. This is the government that did that. If you felt so strongly about the

plight of the people of the province of Ontario, why didn't you close any of the coal plants? You, sir, and your government did absolutely nothing.

Ernie Eves's government has continued the moratorium on new coal plants. He has committed to close Lakeview by 2005. He's one of the first leaders of a

government anywhere in North America to commit to phase out coal. These are positive initiatives to clean our environment.

When the leader of the third party was in government, he did absolutely nothing.

PENSION PLANS

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): To the Minister of Finance -- but let me say that we didn't have to run the coal-fired plants 80% or

90% of the time.

Minister of Finance, on several occasions, I have brought to your attention the tragic story of the collapse of the Participating Co-operatives of Ontario

Trusteed Pension Plan. The 2,300 former employees of Ontario farm and dairy co-operatives have been hit with a 50% reduction in their pension cheques. I also told you that other Ontario pension

plans were in danger of precisely the same kind of collapse. The reason? Because the Financial Services Commission of Ontario is doing an inadequate job of regulating, and the pension benefits

guarantee fund doesn't provide backup for all pensions. Now a second case has happened. The retired workers of Frost Fence in Hamilton have been told their pension has collapsed. Their pension

cheques are being cut by 25% immediately.

Minister, you've got a serious pension problem on your hands in Ontario. How many pensions have to collapse before you do something to protect the pensioners

and the pension plans?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): Yes, we are aware on this side of the House of the pressure that many pension plans are experiencing

because of the investment climate. That's why the regulator has taken additional steps to work with those pension plans that may be facing difficulties, to try and take appropriate steps to protect

pensioners. In this case, again, they are working with the company. They are working with the organization to see what can be done for these particular pensioners.

Mr Hampton: Yes, after the fact. After they get a letter that says, "Your pension cheque is now going to be cut by 20% or 25%," then you're

there.

Minister, all of this has been predictable. A majority of Ontario pension plans now have an unfunded liability, and the pension benefits guarantee fund has

holes in its coverage so wide you could drive several trucks through it. It only covers $1,000 a month, in terms of pension guarantee. You've already had groups saying it should be increased to

$2,000. The people of Ontario assume that the Financial Services Commission is regulating their pensions, and doing it carefully. They assume that their pension fund is protected. But it's becoming

increasingly clear that under your government, it's not being protected; an inadequate job of regulation is in fact being done.

As a sign of good faith, would you do one thing? Would you increase the monthly benefit backed up by the pension guarantee fund to $2,000? Would you do just

that?

Hon Mrs Ecker: This is the only province that has a pension benefit guarantee fund, so this is protection here in Ontario that is not

available to pensioners in other provinces. Secondly, employers have an obligation to top up pensions. There is a requirement to make sure that those pensions remain solvent. There are many pension

plans that are facing challenges. Running out and forcing them to make short-term changes that cause them to be at more risk is not the solution either.

The regulator has indeed been on the case. The honourable member's statement of the facts is simply not accurate. They are working with the plan to try and do

what can be done to assist pensioners. For example, as he mentioned in one of the other ones, half the pensioners who did have a problem are being taken care of. They are making arrangements to

make sure that those people do have pensions, because it is important that when people put their money into pension plans they know it will be there, they know that they will have --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the minister's time is up.

AIR QUALITY

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of the Environment. Today in a scrum, when you were asked about

smog, you said that coal-fired plants are only a small part of the problem. I recognize that you are new to your job, but surely you understand that the single greatest contributor to smog in the

province is coal-fired generation; not only in Ontario, for that matter, but right across the country. You may know that Nanticoke is the single largest coal-fired generator in North America, and

it puts out the equivalent of 3.5 million cars' worth of pollution every single year. Coal-fired generation is not a small part of the problem; it is the single biggest problem connected with the

generation of smog in Ontario.

Minister, how can you dismiss the single largest polluter in Canada -- one for which you yourself assumed responsibility for five years as Minister of Energy

-- as a small part of the problem when it comes to smog?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Northern Development and Mines, Minister of the Environment): All of Ontario's five coal-fired electricity

generating plants -- there's an agreement from the federal and provincial governments and environmental groups that they're responsible for about 8% of the smog problem in Ontario. About 50% of the

smog comes from the United States. That's another figure that's agreed upon among groups and activists, and particularly in the GTA, where it's 50% of the problem. About 90% of the problem in

southwestern Ontario comes from the 205 coal plants -- and they're building more as we speak -- in the Ontario-midwest US airshed. In our airshed, we have five; they have 205. When we get attacked

by the United States about our air -- and again, 90% of southwestern Ontario's smog comes from the United States -- I don't see the honourable member saying anything about the US plants. He

continually picks on our plants. He's got an unreasonable and, in fact, undoable promise to close the coal plants by 2007. There isn't enough natural gas in the province of Ontario today to replace

those coal plants --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the minister's time is up. Supplementary?

Mr McGuinty: You're the Minister of the Environment. Coal-fired generation is something that cannot and should not be tolerated in our

province. Charles Dickens wrote about the blight of coal in 19th-century London. In the 21st century, in a highly technologically developed Ontario, we're still burning coal. That air is making our

kids sick. As the minister whose responsibility it is to protect the environment, you have a responsibility to move as quickly as you can to shut those things down and replace them with a cleaner

kind of energy. We've made a commitment to get that done by 2007 because we're not prepared to pay the price of doing nothing. We're not prepared to continue to allow Ontario kids to get sick as a

result of breathing Ontario air.

I ask you again, when are you going to stand up, when are you going to admit that the single greatest contributor to smog in the province of Ontario is

coal-fired generation? When are you going to do something about those plants in a very real and ambitious way to protect the interests of the health of Ontarians?

Hon Mr Wilson: When I was Minister of Energy, I moved to begin to put state-of-the-art scrubbers on our coal plants. Some $200 million has

been spent to date in doing that. That technology is almost completed. We are phasing out Lakeview in a common sense way by 2005.

But the honourable member has been getting away with murder, frankly, when it comes to his promise to close all coal plants by 2007. There's not enough natural

gas in the province of Ontario. You would have to take the natural gas from the hospitals, from the nursing homes, from the residents. All the natural gas would be required to replace that energy

being produced by those coal plants today. I don't see them building a new pipeline from either eastern or western Canada. I don't see any plans in the works to replace those coal-fired plants by

2007 with natural gas-fired plants.

Frankly, he's got to fess up to the people of Ontario. Your promise is undoable, it's unworkable and, frankly, it comes very close to the edge of not being

completely honest with the people of Ontario. Where are you going to get the natural gas from? You and David Anderson have got some explaining to do to the people of Ontario, because your promise

is undoable. We're working with Manitoba. We're working with other provinces. We're moving on alternative fuels.

MORTGAGE INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is to the Minister of Finance. You have repeatedly stated that our government

has cut taxes 225 times, which has helped to create more than one million net new jobs.

Interjection: How many?

Mr Gill: More than one million net new jobs.

What is your plan to help many homeowners in my riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale and homeowners across Ontario?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): One of the things that we recognize on this side of the House is that home ownership is a goal and a

dream for many, many families. What we have done on this side of the House to try and assist individuals and more families to have home ownership is, for example, to bring in tax relief, like

personal income tax relief. The average family is experiencing over $2,500 worth of tax relief because of the tax cuts we've brought in. That has helped them do many things; home ownership is part

of it.

Another proposal that we have to help homeowners in this province is to have them be able to deduct a portion of their mortgage interest -- the mortgage

interest deductibility plan. We know that on the other side of the House they don't believe in tax relief for homeowners; we on this side of the House understand the importance of that for

families' dreams, and secondly for economic growth and job creation in this province.

Mr Gill: The ownership of property, particularly a home, is truly a Canadian dream, yet some in our society are saying we should not encourage

home ownership through the proposed mortgage interest deductibility. Minister, can you tell us who will benefit most from this important tax reduction?

Hon Mrs Ecker: As the honourable member knows, there is a cap on this so that those with the most expensive homes will not be receiving more

of the benefit. The goal of mortgage interest deductibility, which we are putting forward for families, for homeowners in this province, is to assist homeowners to do what we know is best for their

family and best for the economy. Again, we know the Liberals on the other side of the House do not agree with that. We also know that their record is to increase taxes on families. They increased

personal income tax some three times; they increased sales tax. We understand that tax relief helps promote jobs, promote growth and promote benefits for Ontario families. That's our record; that's

our commitment to Ontario families.

FISCAL AND ECONOMIC POLICY

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Minister of Finance. I would say your fiscal plan is unravelling, whether you

want to admit it or not. We're heading for at least a $2-billion deficit in the province of Ontario, and you continue to make promises you can't keep. I would just say to the people of Ontario:

expect this. It was just last year, a year ago, that the minister had to get up and cancel $1.5 billion in tax cuts and break the Taxpayer Protection Act. You have a phony budget, Minister.

I will say this: you say we're wrong; we say we're right. The way to solve this is to ask a credible, independent third party to look at the finances and give

us an opinion. Will you do this? Will you do what other governments have done? Will you ask an existing advisory group, consisting of the chief economists of the banks and major private sector

economists, to look at the numbers and give us an independent, credible analysis of whether or not we're heading for what we think is a $2-billion deficit in the province of Ontario?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): The record speaks for itself: five balanced budgets, $5 billion in debt repayment. What did the record

show on that side of the House? A 33% increase in the provincial debt, tax increases that take income away from our families and kill jobs. The record is very clear.

Mr Phillips: The record speaks for itself. You have in this budget $2.2 billion of asset sales. You won't tell us a single thing you're going

to sell -- not credible. You've got $800 million of savings in the budget. After eight years you've been around here, you've got $800 million of savings; you won't tell us a single thing it is.

You've got $770 million that's only available if the federal government runs a $6-billion surplus. I say this to you again, Minister: the province of Ontario is entitled to an independent look at

your phony budget. It seems very clear to me and very simple: will you agree to allow an existing advisory group, consisting of the chief economists of the major banks in this country and the major

economic forecasters, to look at your numbers and give us an independent look at those numbers, and will you do it, importantly, before you call the election, so we don't end up with an enormous

surprise after the election?

Hon Mrs Ecker: The only phoniness in this House is the phoniness of the promises that are coming across the way. Under their promises, the

taxpayers' federation says there will be $4 billion of tax increases -- $4 billion of tax increases. If that's what they think the economy needs at this time, when we're wrestling with the

challenge of SARS, they should say so. We on this side of the House understand that tax relief creates jobs, one million new jobs -- 225 tax cuts that they have voted against and continue to vote

against, every single one. Their record is clear: deficits, taxes, lower jobs, lower family incomes, not the kind of record that in the last eight years this side of the House has created for the

people of Ontario.

FIRE PROTECTION SERVICES

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): My question is for the Minister of Public Safety and Security. The fire departments in

Waterloo-Wellington provide essential emergency services. Most of them are in small communities, ably served by volunteers, and they continue to deserve the full support of this Legislature.

I've been contacted by fire departments in my riding in the townships of Wellesley and Wilmot that are aware of the 2003 provincial budget funding commitment

for municipal fire services in small and rural communities. Will the minister please inform the House what is happening with this funding commitment and what kinds of fire service needs and

projects will be eligible for funding under this new initiative?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Public Safety and Security): I thank the honourable member for the question and for his dedication to the

volunteer firefighters of this province. Our government recognizes, supports and values the hard work of Ontario firefighters. This is why the government has promised the allocation of $40 million

to assist small town and rural fire services to purchase the new and updated firefighting equipment they need. At the present time, the Ontario fire marshal's office is working with other ministry

staff, including the Ministry of Finance, to develop funding criteria and administrative processes, and we hope to bring these forward within the next two to three months.

Mr Arnott: I want to thank the minister for that answer, and I appreciate the work he has done to recognize the importance of fire departments

in small communities by helping to make them a priority in this past year's provincial budget. The minister has received a request from Mayor Doug Bergman of Wellesley township that outlines some

of the equipment his fire department needs; this includes a new pumper truck and upgrades to rescue vans. He has also received a letter from Chief John Ritz of the township of Wilmot, asking how

his township can improve their services through this initiative. I want to support them and the other fire departments in my riding in every way that I can. Ontario's firefighters risk their lives

every day to keep the communities of Ontario safe. Can the minister tell this House what the government is doing to ensure that their efforts are not in vain and what initiatives the government is

undertaking to assist local and rural fire services such as those that exist in my riding?

Hon Mr Runciman: I'd like to say that the government has demonstrated its commitment to the fire safety community in Ontario. It was this

government that introduced the Fire Protection and Prevention Act in 1997, the first updating of that act in 50 years. We pledged $3 million in funding in support of the enhancement of the Ontario

Fire College and the creation of an emergency management centre of excellence. In addition to this, we've announced $2.5 million in annual funding for generic and specialized fire training. Now

we're working toward fulfilling our promise of $40 million in additional funding. The government remains committed to ensuring that all emergency services in the province have the tools and

resources they need to respond to and manage emergencies. Our actions are an indicator of this commitment.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Finance. For the past two weeks I have given you example after

example of some of the outrageous rip-offs that private insurance industry providers have inflicted on Ontario drivers. I've also raised examples of individuals and families who are now paying far

more for auto insurance here in Ontario than they would if they had a non-profit, public auto insurance system such as they have in British Columbia.

Yesterday you admitted that the auto insurance rates in that system in British Columbia were lower, but incredibly you tried to say it was because there was

some kind of taxpayer subsidy. We checked with several knowledgeable sources, including the Consumers' Association of Canada. They all said the same thing: rates are much lower under BC's public,

non-profit auto insurance system, and it has absolutely nothing to do with taxpayer subsidies, because there aren't any.

Minister, will you finally admit what the drivers of Ontario already know, that public auto insurance provides lower and more stable rates than Ontario's

private system does?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): Maybe the honourable member would like to explain why it was that his former leader thought that

taxpayers in this province shouldn't have to pay over $1 billion to set up public auto insurance in this province. Maybe he might want to explain why his former leader didn't think it was

appropriate for the taxpayers of Ontario to pay for a job loss of 13,000 with setting up public auto insurance in the province of Ontario. That's what his party and his former leader concluded

after they studied the issue, after they looked at it very carefully. On this side of the House, we want solutions that are going to work for the benefit of consumers.

Mr Hampton: To put it to you bluntly, the government at that time was concerned with the worst recession since the Great Depression. They were

concerned with trying to make sure that some companies kept their head above water. That was the primary concern then. The problem you have is that drivers across Ontario are watching their auto

insurance rates go up by over 40% over the last two years.

I know you and your Liberal friends are pretty cozy with the private auto insurance industry here in Ontario. But drivers deserve a break, and they know that

in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and British Columbia rates have gone up by less than 10% over the last two years in those provinces. The drivers of Ontario want to know this: are you going to bring in a

not-for-profit public auto insurance system, yes or no?

Hon Mrs Ecker: The honourable member is quite right that drivers in this province do need assistance. But what drivers in this province do not

need is the kind of public auto insurance proposal that his party and his leader rejected.

Let me quote, just to refresh his memory. Bob Rae said, "We will not be proceeding with it for two very simple reasons: it will cost too much money; it will

cost too many jobs."

On this side of the House, the policy decisions we make promote economic growth and promote jobs. That will continue to be the policy approach we take. And

yes, we are working with all of the providers, the people and the groups within the auto insurance sector to come up with solutions that will work for consumers.

OHIP BUILDING IN KINGSTON

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): My question is to the Deputy Premier. A previous Conservative government built the OHIP building

in Kingston at a cost of $23 million. In the year 2000 it was appraised for $19 million. It was sold in that year for $12.3 million to a private owner. The private owner immediately mortgaged it

for 110% of the value, which is somewhat unusual. Besides, a lease was signed with OHIP by which the government will pay $1.5 million for that building. A recent environmental and engineering study

showed that the government now has to pay $11 million in order to deal with the engineering and environmental deficiencies.

Minister, can you explain why the government would sell a building for $12.3 million, retain a liability of $11 million -- in other words, sell it for

absolutely nothing or next to nothing -- and end up paying a lease for $1.5 million? Why would you have sold that building in the first place when you got absolutely no value as a result of that

sale taking place?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I do appreciate the question. I will certainly take the question under

advisement and make sure that the Chair of Management Board provides the response.

Mr Gerretsen: I appreciate that, and hopefully the response will come before the end of the week.

I might just remind the minister that the Chair of Management Board at the time said, "We want to avoid the repair costs in the future and give ourselves more

flexibility." That's directly from a Hansard of September 27, 2000, in a question that I put to him at that point in time.

Minister, why would you sell a building, retain the liabilities that go along with that building, and finally, after 10 years of complaints from the employees

in that building -- many of whom got cancer and some of whom died as a result thereof -- retain that liability, so that, in effect, the building cost absolutely nothing or next to nothing? Why

would you even get involved in that situation? To me, that shows absolute, total mismanagement of resources that the taxpayers of Ontario have worked so hard to provide you with.

Hon Mrs Witmer: As I mentioned, we will certainly take the questions under advisement and prepare an appropriate response.

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the Minister of Finance. I understand there are some 582 independent schools across Ontario that

were eligible in 2002 for the equity in education tax credit. I might say, rather proudly, that there are, I believe, several such independent schools in my riding of Durham.

I understand that this tax credit provides flexibility in making the choices that parents need to make on that very important decision of where to send their

children to school. Minister, could you please inform this House what action this government promises to those parents who want that choice of where to send their children to school?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): Again, our government believes in two things very firmly: (1) the importance of a strong, publicly

funded education system; and (2) the importance of respecting parental choice. I know the Liberals believe that parental choice is fine, as long as the parent makes a choice they agree with. On

this side of the House, we think supporting parental choice is the right way to go, so we have brought in an equity-in-education tax credit, which will provide some assistance to those families who

wish to choose an education for their child that may not be within the public education system.

In the meantime, we are continuing to make public and unprecedented investments in our public education system. For example, the 8% increase in public

education that Dr Rozanski has recommended to us will make sure that with new investments and higher standards, our students are learning the way they should.

Mr O'Toole: Thank you very much for that rather comprehensive response. I know the province of Ontario wants to empower parents to make those

choices. What really is confusing for me is this. The other day, I know Alvin Curling and Monte Kwinter clearly stood in contrast to their leader's wishes and voted with the government. That's

understandable. They understand what choice is about for parents. Could you define for me -- or is it an impossible task -- the Liberal Party's position on giving tax credits to parents who choose

to --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): You will know I have said that you have to ask questions relating to the minister's responsibility. Asking about

another policy is not. We're going to move on. I gave you the warning last time.

New question?

BSE

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): Minister of Agriculture, since the US has closed the border to Canadian ruminants and products,

you've been aware that compensation would be in the works. Alberta farmers have their application packages. Their government has been on top of this since day one. Why don't our farmers have their

applications yet? Where are they, and what have you been doing? Last week I called on you to move immediately to get money into farmers' hands and to enhance, extend or boost the program, as

necessary, to do what it takes to save this industry in this province.

The program only allows for compensation of cattle slaughtered in Canada within 14 days. Where are we going to slaughter these cattle? We don't have the hook

space. We don't even have a facility for Holstein steers and slaughter cows. The program inherently discriminates against auction markets, licensed dealers, future finishers and exporters. We need

all those players bidding on cattle.

Minister, what are you doing to do to fix the very serious shortfall in the program and save Ontario's beef industry?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I think the critic doesn't really understand the program, so let me explain very clearly

that this government was one of the first two governments to come out and say they would match the 40% that was required by the federal government.

Once again, we're pretty much first out the door. Once again, we committed $35 million to ensure that the agricultural community in this province was

protected. Once again we worked with the Ontario Cattlemen's Association, a farm group, to make sure that we had a program that worked for the farm groups in Ontario. Both the Ontario Cattlemen's

Association and the Ontario Federation of Agriculture have worked with us before and since we announced this program to ensure that we get it right for the agricultural community.

I think that the member opposite doesn't understand that we can't use a program that's designed in Alberta for Ontario farmers. That's why this government and

this ministry has been working with the Ontario cattlemen and the Ontario federation to get --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the minister's time is up.

Mr Peters: Well, Minister, you just touched on one of the points. There are many stakeholders out there that have been left out of the process

that's been embarked on. I wonder if you actually comprehend the magnitude of this industry. The questions are endless.

In my riding alone, three exporters of commercial and registered cattle easily represent a $30-million economic impact. I've asked your office to set up a

meeting with them, and I expect that you will meet with them. The dairy industry is heavily reliant on export, not only for breeder Heifers and replacement cows, but also for the slaughter of

finished Holsteins and culled cows. Why hasn't the dairy sector been recognized for the importance within the cattle industry in this province?

Marketing: no leadership in addressing competition issues or transparency in the marketplace. You must take a serious look at the drastic differences between

the loss our producers are taking and what plants and retailers are receiving. The price drop is not reflected in those levels. Someone out there is making a killing. Do you have any plan for

orderly marketing, should the border remain close? You need to stand in your place today and publicly shed some light on these issues in the days to come. This industry cannot be left in the

dark.

Hon Mrs Johns: It's always easy to give to complaints; it's always more difficult to work with the farm groups to make sure we get the right

program. Let me say that the eastern program will be different from the western provinces' program, and we're going to make sure it's right for our community. Right now we're working with the

auction yards, because our system is very different. Our cattle go from the farm to the auction market in about 25%, and we have to make sure we have the right system there. We're also working with

veal producers and other ruminant producers, because we need to make sure we have this program right.

I know he wants me to come out with a program without talking to my stakeholders. I'm just not going to do it, because I care too much about this industry. I'm

going to get it right before I ram it out the door and it's wrong and doesn't work for the industry. I'm here to protect them; maybe you're not.

CAPITAL TAX

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): I have a question for the Minister of Finance. As you know, I was in small business before I got

elected in 1995. One of the greatest deterrents to my ability to invest and create jobs was the capital tax. This is a tax that must be paid year after year, whether or not a business makes a

profit. Investors earn lower returns, and in the case of even larger businesses, many of these investors are pension funds, about which the NDP claims to have so much concern, and mutual funds.

They earn lower rates of return on their investment for the risk they take. You have heard, I have heard, we have all heard from small and medium-sized businesses throughout this province that they

need elimination -- sudden if possible, but gradual if necessary -- of the job-killing tax.

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Finance): I was enjoying the honourable member's comments very, very much. I didn't think I needed to add to

them, but I will, now that I have the opportunity. We understand that the capital tax was a profit-insensitive tax. It was killing jobs and it was serving as a barrier to businesses to come and

invest here.

Interjections.

Hon Mrs Ecker: We know -- I hear some razzing from the other side of the House -- that where they've increased taxes, where they've increased

payroll taxes, they've killed jobs. What we're attempting to do is bring down taxes in every single budget. Every single budget has had additional tax relief. That's why we have one million more

jobs. Every single tax cut we brought in, including the 10% first step on the capital tax that will come into effect January 1, 2004, they are voting against. This side of the House, jobs; that

side of the House, kill jobs.

Mr Wettlaufer: As you're aware, most of our competing jurisdictions surrounding Ontario do not have a significant capital tax. This puts

Ontario businesses at a particular competitive disadvantage. That tax makes it extremely difficult for small business to invest and provide jobs. There are many direct and spinoff economic benefits

to be derived from elimination of the capital tax. Please spell out, from your discussions with these small and medium-sized businesses, just what those benefits are.

Hon Mrs Ecker: First of all, we have to start from the fundamental belief that if we want to attract and keep jobs here, a competitive tax

system is how you do that. To keep those taxes down, we on this side of the House have provided $16 billion of tax relief to individuals and businesses in this community. The capital tax reduction

is another step in doing that. It will help attract more capital investment to Ontario to support innovation, productivity and economic growth.

The other side of the House has put out promises in the next election that independent organizations say are going to result in a $4-billion tax increase.

That's how you kill jobs in this province. We have the record that proves that you bring down taxes, you create jobs, you support additional economic growth. That's how you help families in this

province.

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-Baie James): Ma question est à la vice-première ministre. Vous savez que la convention collective des

employés de la fonction publique de l'Ontario existe seulement en anglais. Le syndicat a demandé l'an dernier au Secrétariat du Conseil de gestion de partager les coûts de la

pour payer leurs frais. Est-ce que vous êtes --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order; if I could interrupt. What we'll do is we'll stop the clock for the member. It's my recollection that he's

at 2:05, which should allow for a question and supplementary. The minister had trouble with her earphone, and in fairness to her -- is it working now? OK. I'm sorry. I saw the minister going for

it. I apologize. We'll allow the time. I thought it was for the Deputy Premier. The member can ask the question.

M. Bisson: Cette fois-ci, on espère que ça marche. La convention collective des employés de la fonction publique de l'Ontario,

participation de l'employeur. La question est bien simple : êtes-vous prête à accepter, dans les prochaines éditions du contrat, que la convention collective soit traduite

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I'm going to refer that to the minister of francophone affairs.

L'hon John R. Baird (ministre de l'Énergie, ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones, leader parlementaire du

L'une de mes grandes responsabilités comme ministre des Affaires francophones est de sensibiliser mes collèges aux besoins de la communauté

francophone. Je suis très fier de faire cela. Je suis bien prêt, comme je l'étais toujours, à travailler avec le député de Timmins-James Bay sur ce sujet et à

parler avec mes collègues dans le Conseil des ministres. Bien sûr, avec un nouveau contrat il y a toujours une opportunité d'avoir des négociations avec les deux parties. Je

suis bien prêt à parler de ce sujet très important avec mon cher collègue.

M. Bisson: Si j'ai bien compris votre réponse, c'est que vous vous êtes engagé à vous assurer que, dans les prochaines

négociations provinciales, le gouvernement va accepter que la traduction soit faite du document de la convention collective -- si j'ai bien compris -- et qu'on puisse s'attendre à ce que

cela va être fait à la prochaine négociation. Ma question est bien simple : est-ce qu'on peut s'attendre à ce que la convention collective de SEFPO va être disponible

L'hon. M. Baird: Je suis bien heureux de travailler avec le député, le porte-parole pour les Affaires francophones du Parti

néo-démocratique, sur cette politique. Je suis bien conscient des besoins des francophones. Je vais parler avec mon collègue le chef du Conseil de gestion à ce sujet et je vais

aussi parler avec vous quand il y aura des négociations. C'est bien sûr une bonne opportunité pour les deux parties et leurs négociateurs, pas dans l'Assemblée

législative, d'avoir une négociation pour un nouveau contrat, mais je suis bien prêt à parler avec vous à ce sujet si vous pensez que c'est une priorité et un besoin

de la communauté.

MEMBER FOR RENFREW-NIPISSING-PEMBROKE

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: We are finished question period, I believe? Yes.

The member for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke is retiring. As we know, he is not seeking re-election. I don't know when the election is, but I hope that someone

who has served in this place for 28 years would be recognized by each of our caucuses before he does leave. I'm wondering, if today or tomorrow is his last day, whether that could be addressed by

the House leaders. I think it would be most important to recognize that.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Yes. He's going to join me in my endeavours.

I'm sure the House leaders will get a chance to do that. The member is here to advise them where he will be over the next few days.

VISITORS

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: It gives me great pleasure to welcome, in the members'

gallery, advocate Mr Arun Walia; his wife, advocate Mrs Renu Walia; their friends Mr Gulab Saini and Mrs Savita Saini; and their young daughter Miss Prateek Saini. I would like to have the House

recognize them, please.

PETITIONS

BENEFITS FOR RETIRED WORKERS

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): I present this petition on behalf of OPSEU.

"Whereas in an era of growing health care privatization and care for profit, retired Ontario workers are entitled to live their senior years in dignity without

fear of unaffordable health-related expenses; and

"Whereas following the 2002 OPSEU public service strike the Eves government exploited special cabinet powers to impose serious cuts to the medical benefits of

its own retired employees; and

"Whereas these benefit rollbacks will force public service retirees to pay out more and more of their fixed incomes for costly prescription medications, dental

services and other benefits; and

"Whereas the overwhelming majority of the affected retirees were front-line public service workers who spent their working lives providing care and protection

for our communities;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"The Eves government must immediately reverse all the cuts to the Ontario public service retirees' benefits package which it imposed following the 2002 OPSEU

strike."

I am proud to add my signature to this petition that's signed by hundreds of retired Ontario public servants.

TUITION FEES

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I have thousands of names of petitioners. They've sent me this petition to stop the cuts, freeze

tuition fees and restore government funding. It's to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario from the Canadian Federation of Students, Local 24; the Ryerson Faculty Association; the Ontario Public

Service Employees Union, Local 596; and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, Locals 233 and 3904.

"Whereas average tuition fees in Ontario continue to be the second-highest in Canada; and

"Whereas for every $1 in increased tuition fees at Ryerson University, at least $2 was cut from the university budget due to government underfunding; and

"Whereas user fees for a university degree have increased more than 135% over the past 10 years, more than six times faster than the 20.6% increase in

inflation during the same period...; and

"Whereas Statistics Canada confirmed in a December 7, 2001, report that young people from low-income families are less than half as likely as those from

wealthy families to participate in university education; and

have accordingly frozen or reduced tuition fees;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and the Ryerson University board of governors to freeze tuition fees for all

students and programs at their current levels; and restore government funding for all students at public universities and colleges in the province; and reduce tuition fees for all graduate,

post-diploma and professional programs for which tuition fees have been deregulated since 1998."

I support this petition and sign it.

SENIORS' PROPERTY TAX CREDIT

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): It's my pleasure to present a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"Whereas Ontario's senior citizens have devoted themselves to building Ontario's outstanding quality of life and have earned the right to a safe and secure

retirement; and

"Whereas the government of Ontario has introduced the Ontario Home Property Tax Relief for Seniors Act, 2003; and

"Whereas" this act would ensure that eligible senior homeowners or renters "would receive property tax reimbursements on their principal residence starting

July 1, 2003; and

"Whereas this would provide an average annual net savings of $475 for over 945,000 seniors' households;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Legislative Assembly of Ontario enact the Ontario Home Property Tax Relief for Seniors Act, 2003, to ensure that Ontario's seniors benefit from lower

taxes on their homes."

I'm pleased to sign and support this on behalf of my constituents in the riding of Durham and present it to Ryan on this, one of his last days in the

Legislature.

SERVICE DE DIALYSE

M me Claudette Boyer (Ottawa-Vanier): J'ai une pétition à présenter à l'Assemblée législative de

l'Ontario.

« Attendu que chacun a droit à l'éducation;

« Attendu que chacun a droit de se faire soigner;

« Attendu que chacun a droit à une qualité de vie;

« Attendu que chacun a droit à son indépendance;

« Attendu que Marie-Ève Chainey requiert les services quotidiens d'hémodialyse à la maison;

« Attendu qu'elle était candidate pour recevoir ces services sous peu;

« Attendu que le mercredi 29 mai 2003, faute de financement du gouvernement, le campus Riverside de l'hôpital d'Ottawa se voit dans

l'impossibilité de lui offrir ce service important pour sa qualité de vie et la poursuite de ses études;

« Attendu que ce service coûterait moins cher à la province;

« Attendu que ce service permettrait à Marie-Ève d'avoir une meilleure qualité de vie, de se sentir mieux, de poursuivre ses

études, de manger mieux et d'être plus indépendante;

« Nous, soussignés, adressons à l'Assemblée législative de l'Ontario la pétition suivante:

« Que le service quotidien d'hémodialyse à la maison soit disponible immédiatement à Marie-Ève Chainey et à tous ceux

et celles qui vivent une situation semblable. »

Il me fait plaisir d'apposer ma signature à cette pétition.

HOME CARE

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas well-managed and adequately funded home health care is a growing need in our community; and

"Whereas the provincial government has frozen community care access centre budgets, which has meant dramatic cuts to service agency funding and services to

vulnerable citizens, as well as shortened visits by front-line workers; and

"Whereas these dramatic cuts, combined with the increased complexity of care for those who do qualify for home care, has led to an impossible cost burden to

home care agencies; and

"Whereas the wages and benefits received by home care workers employed by home care agencies are well below the wages and benefits of workers doing comparable

jobs in institutional settings; and

"Whereas front-line staff are also required to subsidize the home care program in our community by being responsible for paying for their own gas and for

vehicle maintenance; and

"Whereas other CCACs and CCAC-funded agencies across the province compensate their staff between 29 cents and 42.7 cents per kilometre; and

"Whereas CCAC-funded agency staff in our own community are paid 26 cents per kilometre, with driving time considered `hours worked';

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"To act now to increase funding to the CCAC of Kingston, Frontenac, Lennox and Addington in order for it to adequately fund service agencies so they can fairly

compensate front-line workers."

I will affix my signature to this petition as I am in full agreement.

SOCIAL SERVICES FUNDING

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): At the request and on behalf of Hamilton Mayor Bob Wade and city council, I present the following

petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the province of Ontario should remove the funding of social services from the property tax base; and

"Whereas the province should agree to pool municipal social service costs across the GTA-Hamilton area if these costs are not removed from the property tax

base; and

"Whereas the province should recognize that the city of Hamilton has been considered a partner in the GTA's urban transportation showcase program; and

"Whereas every city region named in this program except for the city of Hamilton is included in the GTA's social services pooling;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the provincial government remove the funding of social services from the property tax base and, failing that, that the provincial government include the

city of Hamilton in the greater Toronto area social services pooling."

On behalf of my constituents in Hamilton West, I add my name to this petition in support.

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that reads as follows:

"Whereas the province of Ontario has delayed the second phase of the equity in education tax credits for parents who choose to send their children to

independent schools; and

"Whereas prior to the introduction of this tax credit, Ontario parents whose children attended independent schools faced the financial burden of paying taxes

to an education system they did not use, plus tuition for the school of their choice; and

"Whereas the equity in education tax credits support parental choice in education and make independent schools more accessible to all Ontario families;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, respectfully request that the government of Ontario introduce the second phase of the tax credit forthwith and continue --

without delay -- the previously announced timetable for the introduction of the tax credit over five years."

INSURANCE RATES

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition that reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Progressive Conservative government of Ernie Eves has failed to protect Ontario consumers who are experiencing skyrocketing automotive, home and

commercial insurance rates; and

"Whereas the Ontario government has failed to create the regulatory environment that would adequately protect loyal customers in a tough insurance marketplace;

and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has twice introduced ineffective legislation which has done nothing to stabilize insurance rates in the province of

Ontario; and

"Whereas the average individual increase in auto insurance rates over the past four years have increased by over 40%; and

"Whereas the people of Ontario are having difficulty obtaining reasonable insurance coverage or are being dropped as customers -- even in cases where there has

been no change in their risk factors;

"Let it be resolved that the government of Ontario:

"(1) introduce effective legislation to ensure those injured in automobile collisions have fair and rapid access to appropriate medical-rehabilitation

services;

"(2) reduce, then stabilize, auto insurance premiums in Ontario;

"(3) improve access to automobile insurance coverage through a more competitive marketplace."

I affix my signature to this petition.

EDUCATION TAX CREDIT

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm pleased to present a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario today, which reads as

follows:

"Whereas the province of Ontario has delayed the second phase of the equity in education tax credits for parents who choose to send their children to

independent schools; and

"Whereas prior to the introduction of this tax credit, Ontario parents whose children attended independent schools faced the financial burden of paying taxes

to an education system they did not use, plus tuition for the school of their choice; and

"Whereas the equity in education tax credits support parental choice in education and make independent schools more accessible to all Ontario families;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, respectfully request that the government of Ontario introduce the second phase of the tax credit forthwith and continue --

without delay -- the previously announced timetable for the introduction of the tax credit over five years."

HOG INDUSTRY

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): I have a petition from concerned citizens of the village of Dalkeith in the township of

North Glengarry, where a mega-farm is to be built.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ernie Eves government passed Bill 81, the Nutrient Management Act, on June 26, 2002, and this bill received royal assent on June 27, 2002, without

regulations to protect our environment as well as our aquifer and the safety and security of Ontarians; and

"Whereas the Eves government has not to date defined the criteria for mega-hog operations; and

"Whereas the environment in areas of Quebec, New Brunswick, USA and Europe has been negatively impacted by mega-hog operations in their area;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to demand that an environmental assessment be done by a consultant recognized by the

Ministry of the Environment of Ontario before a building permit can be issued by the municipality for a mega-hog farm operation in Ontario."

I gladly sign my name to this petition.

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition that reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Health Canada approved Visudyne on June 1, 2000, as therapy for the treatment of the wet form of age-related macular degeneration; and

"Whereas clinical trials have demonstrated that this treatment safely and effectively stabilizes vision loss in 67% of patients and improves visual acuity in

13% of patients; and

"Whereas patients requiring therapy using Visudyne face a cost of $1,750 for the drug and $750 for the clinician procedural fees each time therapy is

administered, and to complete a full therapy cycle, a patient would be required to pay $15,000 to preserve his or her sight; and

"Whereas the Ontario Ministry of Health in May 2002 announced Visudyne funding criteria that is not retroactive to June 1, 2000 and effectively excludes 80% to

90% of all eligible patients who suffer from macular degeneration;

"Let it be resolved that the Ontario Ministry of Health immediately change its unfair restrictions on macular degeneration patients and reimburse those

patients who have used their own financial resources to receive this vital treatment."

I have affixed my signature. I'm in complete agreement with the petition.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): This completes the time allocated for petitions.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THE RIGHT CHOICES ACT

(BUDGET MEASURES), 2003 /

LOI DE 2003

SUR LES BONS CHOIX

(MESURES BUDGÉTAIRES)

Resuming the debate adjourned on June 19, 2003, on the motion for second reading of Bill 41,

An Act to implement Budget measures / Projet de loi 41, Loi

mettant en oeuvre les mesures budgétaires.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Today is likely the last day my colleague from

Pembroke-Nipissing-Renfrew will sit in this House. I believe we have unanimous consent for each caucus to spend five minutes to address Mr Conway on this very important day.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): I'll deal first with --

Mr Bisson: To that.

The Acting Speaker: To the point of order? The member for Timmins-James Bay.

Mr Bisson: I believe we have agreement that what we will do is, today we'll do one person for the Liberal caucus, on Wednesday we would do

either the Tories or the New Democrats and on Thursday we would do the opposite. Each party will have an opportunity to send off their fine members like Mr Christopherson and others.

The Acting Speaker: I'm not exactly sure what we're agreeing to.

Mr Duncan: We are.

Mr Bisson: It's agreed.

The Acting Speaker: Oh, it's agreed. The member for St Catharines.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): The member for Pembroke-Nipissing-Renfrew of course very reluctantly has those of us in the House paying

tribute to him as is his wont. Nevertheless I must say that our friend Margaret Marland, who has served a long time with him, would like to see us pay tribute to him, despite his reluctance to be

feted in this particular fashion.

I want to simply say what a wonderful experience it has been to be in this House for 26 of the 28 years Mr Conway has been in the Legislature. He is an

individual -- and this is quite unusual for most because they don't have this opportunity -- who's been able to, as Rudyard Kipling would have said, walk with kings and keep the common touch,

because Sean Conway has had an opportunity to meet Premiers, Prime Ministers, people prominent in various levels of government and internationally, in the academic field and the cultural field and

the sports field, but always feels most at home in the Ottawa Valley with the people he has represented over the years in the many hamlets and villages, towns and cities and rural areas of his

riding.

It goes almost without saying that he is extremely eloquent and articulate in the presentations he has made in this Legislature, and on many occasions he has

delivered impassioned speeches about subjects near and dear to his heart and those of his constituents.

It is not often that a person elected in 1975 is still in a legislative body in the year 2003, but Sean Conway was elected out of university, without ever

having what some might say is a real job, into this Legislature and immediately had an impact on its deliberations and on the people of the constituency then known as Renfrew North.

It is also noted that on many occasions -- today may be the exception -- people actually came into the Legislature, as they did, I can recall, when Stephen

Lewis was in the House, to hear Sean Conway speak. Whether one agreed or disagreed with the content of the speech, there is a knowledge of Ontario history and politics which is unsurpassed by any

member of the House and Sean has always brought to the debates and deliberations of this House that kind of historic perspective that all of us wish we could bring to our deliberations and our

arguments.

He has also had the responsibility to deal with some very tough issues. He has been on both the opposition side and the government side. In government, after

Bill Davis announced that we would have separate school funding in the secondary schools of this province, the Minister of Education who actually had to bring the bill forward and proceed with it

was Sean Conway, and that was a matter of great negotiations. But previous to that there were significant negotiations that took place between the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party when an

accord was reached to have a government stay in power a minimum of two years. One of the architects of that -- I would say the central architect of bringing the two parties together on that

occasion for the purposes of an agreement to govern -- was none other than the member for Renfrew North at that time, Sean Conway.

He also had to be the government House leader in times of government, which is always difficult, not during the minority when it would be particularly

difficult but certainly during a majority period of time. Anyone who has served in that capacity recognizes that it is a difficult challenge.

Sean Conway has always been an individual of principle. When some of us may stray to be more partisan than perhaps we should on many occasions, Sean Conway, in

his speeches, has often been critical of governments of which he has been a part or all political parties, or complimentary of all political parties. I think again that kind of ecumenical approach

has brought him the kind of respect that few in the field of politics are able to have.

He has been passionate. At one time I can recall -- we're not here to recall a number of instances, but I recall a famous question he asked about the Walkerton

inquiry -- and there was some question at that time whether there would be an inquiry into the situation in Walkerton. Mr Conway stood in the House and in a very impassioned way made a plea to the

government to proceed with a full public inquiry. Whether coincidental or not, it was shortly after that that the government announced that in fact there would be an inquiry.

So the House is losing an individual who brings much to its deliberations. He has seen changes that he himself is in the best position to talk about, but I

know he has been concerned across this country, not simply in this Legislature, with the diminishing of the role of legislative bodies in various jurisdictions in this country and at the national

level, and I'm sure he will continue to be vocal and forthright on that issue.

I suspect that those in the academic field will have access, particularly students in our universities -- at least one of them somewhere in this province -- to

that tremendous knowledge that has been accumulated by Sean Conway and the wisdom that he has gained through his experience in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. I suspect that in the news media

we will see Sean Conway from time to time asked to comment objectively, as only he can, on matters related to politics in this province.

Whenever we lose a person who has served -- and 28 years is a long period of time to serve and still be a relatively young person to be in this House.

Twenty-eight years is a long time to serve. It means that the constituents he has represented have had faith in him. I have seen him at work in his riding in the Ottawa Valley, where he seems to

know each and every person and relates well, whether it's the fiddling contest in Eganville, the Rotary picnic just up the street from the fiddling contest, or in any one of the many towns and

villages and hamlets that he has mentioned during his many speeches in the Legislative Assembly.

I know that those of us in the Liberal caucus will miss very much the continued contribution that he has made over the years to our deliberations, to the

ongoing history of this province and to the debates which are so important in discussing public issues. We wish Sean Conway the very best in his new vocation, his new occupation; I suspect we

cannot say "in his retirement." The Legislative Assembly will be a lesser place as a result of his departure.

Mr Bisson: I am pleased, on behalf of the New Democratic Party of Ontario, to be able to take these few minutes in order to talk a little bit

about the history of Sean and his time here in the Legislature. We all kn