PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: MARCH 22, 1977

.. March 22, 1977, Tape 1146, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. WINSOR: Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. Mr. Speaker, my petition is addressed to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. It is from Harbour Mille and Little Bay East,in the bottom of Fortune Bay,and it is signed by 234 people. It is really an adjunct to the other petitions which I presented -some time ago. The prayer of the petition reads: "We the undersigned feel that we are justified in our asking for a firm commitment with regards to the completion of upgrading and subsequent paving of the

section of road from the Burin Peninsula Highway to Harbour Miller connecting the communities of Jaeques Fontaine, St. Bernard's, Bay L'Argent, Little Bay East, Little Harbour East and Harbour Mille. We feel there is still some upgrading to be done with regards to widening the road in certain areas, ditching in certain areas. Taking into consideration that school buses are covering the entir': length _.of this highway on a r.egular . basis _, we place special emphasis on the need for guardrails in certain dangerous places.

This being done we feel that the next course of action should be to pave the road since the major~ortion has been upgraded for sometime. We firmly believe that your government should seriously consider our petition and make the necessary commitment to carry out the aforementioned suggestions at the very earliest." This is not intended as an harassment of the Minister of Transportation and Communications, but these people feel that for some reason this is not going _to be carried out. The minister ha-s ·repH.ed to each of these petitions and I thank him for it.

But they still feel that they would like a very definite, firm commitment from the minister that this programme will be 31.78

March 22,1977, Tape 1146, Page 2-- apb MR. J. WINSOR: carried out. I ask that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I should like to offer my support to the prayer of the petition on behalf of 234 residents of Harbour Mille and Little Bay East. I am sure, Sir, after Mr. Otto Lang visits the Province on Monday, I believe it is, there will be no shortage of cash that the Minister of Transportation and Communications - Mr.

Lang, no doubt, will be making a number of announcements while he is in the Province~ And I believe the minister is going to be out in Alberta while Mr. Lang is here, which is rather unfortunate. When the goodies are being passed out the minister takes off and leaves the Province. MR. MORGAN: anyway. MR. NEARY: I have been waiting all year for him Waiting all year, and then the minister leaves when he comes. I do not know if a meeting has - ---- - · -- ·-

March 22, 1977 Tape 1147 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: being arranged with Mr. Lang, between the minister and Mr. Lang or not? But certainly if the minister needs an introduction I am sure somebody on this side of the House will be glad to give it to him. But, Sir, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition. All the people are asking for is a commitment from the minister. And that is no more than he should do, Sir, g ~ve_the people down there a commitment that this piece of road is going to be finished this year. So it gives me great pleasure, Sir, to support the prayer of th~t petition. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member from the Bay of Islands. MR. L. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I have great admiration for the member from :. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Fortune-Hermitage. MR. WOODROW: -Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor), I am sorry. I have known him for many years, and I am up to speak now -I know the ~inister·was-going - -to-:-get up and speak before me, but I am speaking now because he is sincere. He means every single words he says. MR. W.· C.ARTF~: 'Who i~ that? MR. WOODROW: The member over here. He means every single word he says. He is sincere. MR. NEARY: And that is the truth. MR.

WOODROW: Of course it is the truth. And that is what . .. we need more ~Lit! ~p is House of Assembly. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: I have also spent, as perhaps all the members know now in this House, I have spent almost eight years flying between Argentia~and Port aux Basques. And in those days there were no roads~to go on , in fact, roads were not even heard of. And there is something else that I want to bring outi -that it is _difficult to build roads in any part of this Province, almost any part, but it is more difficult in the Harbour Mille, Little Bay East area. I am

March 22, 1977 Tape 1147 Pk - 2 Mr. Woodrow: to having those roads. But there is one thing that I want to bring out _an(f itis th-is-, it also means that this administration har:; tn borrow more and more - the more petitions that come before the House of Assembly whether 1 they come from this side of the House or from the other side of the House,it means that more money has to be borrowed. Sometimes - AN RON. MEMBER: More power! MR. FLIGHT: None less. MR. WOODROW: - I get a little bit dismayed when people on the other side of the House more or less : ie~ _terribly ~pset when we have to borrow more money.

Like, for example, the $50 million borrowed from Alberta last week, eh? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. WOODROW: Now I just simply want to conclude by saying that I support the effort of the hon. member- and I am - -- sure the minister will have something to say about it also. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the bon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications, I would like to welcome to the _House of Assembly eleven Grades VII and VIII students from Waasis Road Junior High School in Oromocto, New Brunswick, and eleven Grades VII and VIII students from Macdonald Drive Junior High in St. John's.Both -groups are accompanied by their teachers Mrs. Pamla Hughes from the New Brunswick School, and Mr. Hubert Hillier from Macdonald Drive, and the students from New Brunswick are visiting the Province on a student exchange programme.

I know hon. members join me in wishing these students from New Brunswick and from 'Macdonald Drive an enjoyable visit to the House of Assembly. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and .Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few brief words on the petition. If I recall correctly this petition was tabled in the House a short while ago.

March 22 ~ 1977 Tape 1147 Pk - 3 MR. HICKMAN: What? MR. WHITE: This is the second one. MR. MORGAN: A petition from the residents of the same area, they questioned th~ same work to be carried out, and if I recall - -----correctly, as well~· all dt-;-replies . wer~ "Sent to the pe titioners outlining the position of the Transportation and Communications Department. Now the petition is requesting ·a commitment from me, the minister.

First of all, I think, it is impossible, and maybe immoral, and illegal,and , improper to the House of Assembly for me to make commitments to any part of the Province with regards to road work required, based on the fact that this cannot be done prior to the House of Assembly having the Budget brought before the House and the estimates approv~d

~~arch 22, 19 77 }_!R. ~fOFG.A.N: by the House. '!'ape 1148 IB-1 Only then can I make firm coJTmlitments that ~vork will be carried out this year.

This ~vas told the residents in my reply to them in writing, and I also indicated to them that because of the fact that the funds might not be availabl~ based on the fact we have 2,400 miles of road in the Province, gravel road~remaining to be reconstructed and paved, hopefully within the next couple or three or four years, that because there is substantial road r·mrk required -and I repeat, substantial road work recuired in the hon. gentleman's district-that it may be a possibility~ and 1ve ,dll seek out that possibility,of having nPEE include some of these roads in an upcoming agreement which ~-1e hope to sign this year in 1977 for the next year or two.

So that is the firm indication given to them an~ other than that I could not give any firm commitment to them. MR . SPE.A.KEB: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. 1-!R. R0~7E: Yr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 259 residents of the community of New Harbour in the electoral district of Trinity-Bay de ~erde. Sir, the prayer of the petition is a short cne.

""He, the undersigned citizens of Nevt Harbour humbly petition the government to install a water system to serve the homes of Ne1>r Harbour in co-ordination vri..th the "t<rater line presently being constructed to the fish plants by Avalon Construction. 11 Now, Sir, there are a couple of things I vrould like to point out in support of this petition.

Number one, that particular project has been co1rpleted by Avalon Construction, the water line to the two fish plants in that community, the water line has been completed but in conversation with the president of Avalon Construction I tmderstand that valves have been set along the way of the main ,,rater line so that water can be brought to the homes of the community at a later date.

The other point that is not mentioned in the prayer of the petition,but is markerl in above some of the signatures, Sir, is that~'r·7 e ·are also in favour of a council:/ Of course in order to have·a 1vater system established in a co~unity that size;of over some

1-!arch 22, 19 77 Tape 1148 }'R. ~OHE: 400 households 1 I would submit that we would probably require the incorporation of the conmrunity of New Harbour • And, in fact,I have been asked by the person who brought this petition to me to mention when I 1<1as supporting the petition, that this petition IB-2 is also requesting that the community of New Harbour be incorporated. As well as the 259 people who have signed the petition the upper Trinity South Regional Development Association has also supported this particular petition.

Sir, I support the petition whole-heartedly and I would hope that the ¥inister of ¥unicipal Affairs and Housing would see fit to do so as ~vell with respect to the installation of a water system to the homes of the people of that comF.Unity. But I would also hope that he would see fit to relate to the status of the incorporation of the presently unincorporated cornmunjties in this Province, give us some idea, probably, ho·w many comi!!Uilities wish to be incorporated and give this hon.

House some indication of the degree to which the government can afford or is able to incorporate communities this coming yea~Because. there are many, many communities in this Province~and indeed in the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde)that wish and desperately wish to become incorporated so that they can avail themselves of the various formulas for local road improvement and maintenance and water systems and this sort of thing. Sir, I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates • ¥R. SPEAKE F.: The hon. member for Lewisporte. 1-'fR. WHITE: Hr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde n..rr. 'Rowe) representing 259 petitioners from the town of New Harbour. Hr. Speaker, in supporting this petition I want to specifically refer to something that the hon. member mentioned)and that is the fact that a ~<Tater line has already been provided in the town to the fish plant. This I understand has been done by the federal government Department of DB.EE. ~-fP. • ROlfE : That is right. !·1P_. WHITE : Similar things have been done else~vhere in Newfoundland.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. J I •f;j Page 1 - MS Mr. Whit e . What I want to point out is that I think there should be more co-operation or co-ordination between the Department of Municipal Affairs and DREE in respect of those water systems, referring specifically, of course, to the one at New Harbour. I know of places in the Province where $1 million had been spent putting in a water line to a fish plant that goes along by the side of the road where houses are, but they cannot hook up to them as yet.

So in supporting this petition I would like to see more co-operation with respect to this kind of water system so that people who are in the towns can at least avail of the drop of fresh water. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support this petition, I would like to state that there are many communities in this Province that have requested for some considerable time the incorporation of their communities.

And as well as this community here, there are communities in my district that for three years now, with a ninety-seven per cent vote in the community, have asked for incorporation and have been refused incorporation on the grounds that to incorporate them would cause inflation in the Province . There was als~, I must state, a committee who travelled here to St.

John's last year at considerable expense to them and who were given a commitment - again I say a commitment - that they would be incorporated by December 31, 1976 and have not yet been incorporated, and they feel that the only way the y can do things for their community is to have a legitimate council. These communities often call themselves councils, but they have no source of funds. They cannot organize their communities. And they feel that if they can incorporate , if they are allowed to be incorporated, then they can manage to do a better function for their communities.

And I heartily support the prayer of this petition. And I believe the minister

March 22, 1977 Tape no. J .'J.,!.'-= ~ Page 2 - HS Mr. Strachan. should move quickly in many of these rural and isolated communities and set a deadline date which he intends to keep of incorporating them. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I am speaking on another petition, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Does any hon. member wish to speak on the previous petition? The hon. minister. MR. DINN: I rise now. I do not know whether the community of New Harbour - we have, as the hon. member stated, many communities, that have requested incorporation.

Some of them have not gone through the procedure for incorporation with regards to, say, a community council where by they have to have a meeting in their area and have to have fifty per cent plus one at that meeting and all fifty per cent plus one have to vote in favo ur of incorporation. So if they have gone through that process, and it is in the department, then we are looking at them right now. MR. WHITE: Draw the sheet. MR. DINN:. Yes, okay. So we are looking at them right now. With regards to the hon. member for coastal Labrador, Eagle River, he indicated - and he indicated once before in the House, Mr.

Speaker - that there was a commitment made to a council that came in. And at that time he referred to the council coming in to see me at a meeting in my office. I want to state again that I made no commitment to any council that I did not keep. And I intend to continue in that vein. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 149 fishermen in the district of Port au Port. This

March 22, 1977 Tape no. lt 'f q Page 3 - mw _Mr. Hodder. petition is also signed by the chairman of thirteen fisheries committees. The prayer of the petition reads, "l-.7hereas the fishermen of Bay St. George and Port au Port Bay have for years been aware that the herring come to Bay St. George and Port au Port Bay to spawn, it is also the fact that a large number of draggers and seiners have for years followed the herring schools into Bay St. George and Port au Port Bay and taken large quantities of herring in spawn. And

whereas the above practice of harvesting spawn herring is threatening to destroy the herring stocks; and

whereas the herring fishery is not only an industry in itself, but the success of the cod and other groundfishery -is dependent on an abundance of herring and the whole future of the inshore fishery is related to the abundance of herring, therefore it is urgent that both Port au-Port Bay and Bay St. George be closed to herring draggers and seiners for the spawning season April, May and June and we urgently urge

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1150 NM- 1 MR. HODDER: the government to enforce thf-s law." Now I realize, Mr. Speaker, that this comes under the jurisdiction of federal authorities but I say to the House and to the ~nister of Fisheries to support these fishermen because the fishery in Bay St. George for quite some time now has been declining. But in the past couple of years it is starting to come back. Hore people are going into the fishery, more people are expressing interest in the fishery. For years the federal government's statistics show that there were no fish in Bay St.

George, the landings were all shown in Port aux Basques, but now I think this has changed but the attitude still remains. But the herring have come into the bay traditionally to spawn. But at the particular time that .. the herring do come into the b~y this is the time when the local inshore fishermen are - this is. their most productive time - you will have to excuse me I have a cold but this is the most productive time for those fishermen because this is when they get most of their fish from jigging and from the traditional way of fishing in their small boats.

And the seiners come right in the bay, Newfoundland and Nova Scotian, particularly in Port au Port Bay, they come right into the bay and each .year the schools are declining. Now I feel, and this is my recommendation, that there must be a management zone for inshore fishermen. We now have a 200 mile limit but those fishermen who fish in small boats from the shore there must be a management zone to protect the inshore fishery.

We have to regulate within the 200 miles because we cannot have our larger boats, our larger vessels coming into areas and taking away fish from the inshore fishery ~vhich is the main- stay of this Province in which is the most labour intensive industry in this Province. I ask that the petition be tabled and referred to the department to ~vhich it relates. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1150 NM- 2 MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fortune-Hermitage. ~-. T,ITNSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by my colleague from Port au Port. Bay St. George certainly has been decimated and the area outside of it for a number of years. I can go back twenty years when there \~as one of the largest scallop beds known. They are some eighteen fathoms deep. That was scooped up and cleaned up and that is gone. It will be many, many years before this scallop bed will ever replenish itself. ·The same thing that is happening in Bay St.

George with the herring is happening in Fortune Bay. And even though it is a federal matter.we do feel that the Provincial Department of Fisheries could do much to discourage seiners going into the bays and cleaning up the herring stocks and,not only the herring, everything that goes with it. s~me of the species that come up they do not want them so they dump them and bait the ground as· the fishermen say. And it is doing a lot more damage than is realized by this House or the whole country, except the fishermen.

They know it and they are very much against the herring seiners coming right into the landwash and scooping up everything there, destroying the livelihood of many, many fishermen .. . ___ I have very much pleasure in supporting my colleague's petition. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. George's. MRS. MACISSAC: Mr. Speaker, I rise too to support the petition presented by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). The herring fishery in the Bay St.

George area is of much concern to me and last year during the harvesting season I contacted just about everybody possible to see what could be done to control those seiners •. In fact I think the Minister of Fisheries,if he stands to speak on the petition,will recall that he received a telegram and a couple of phone calls from me. The people in the area are very much concerned about it. Notonly are those seiners destroying the spawning grounds,

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1150 N?-t - 3 MRS. MAC! SSAC : but they are also destroying the gear placed in the water by the inshore fishermen. And I am sure everybody appreciates the fact that not all fishennen have longliners and along the coast in my area. the fishermen fish from very small boats, motor boats,in fact, and they are making their livelihood

}!arch 22, 19 77 Tape 1151 IB-1 }IR_S. ~~CIS SAC: in the only way possible to them. I certainly do not;and I do not feel that any me~ber here would like to see this continue where the gear placed in the water by these fishermen is being destroyed. Three fishermen that I knmv of had to give up fishing last year because of what happened. They went to everybody that they thougi:t ~~uld _help- ·· them arid the_ resu~~ was that ~hey could p~ssibly get paid for the gear that · they !_C?st i .f they knew or if they could ident-ify the seiner that destroyed the gear.

And this is almost impossible since those seiners are out in the early hours of the . mor!ling and you would have to spend the night in your boat protecting your gear. He certainly feel in the Bay St. George area that so!!'ething has to be done to protect the inshore fishery. ~·le are looking to the provincial government for some help. We have gone to the federal government and ~-re know it is a federal problem; · but if our provincial government is not too concerned about it then r,.re certainly cannot expect the people in Ottawa to be concerned about 1.o1hat is going on along our coast. SOME HON.

YTI!BEP.S: Fear, hear! MRS. }~CISSAC: And I certainly ask that the provincial government, that the Yinister of Fisheries, take this into consideration and see if there is some representation that he can make to the federal offic:f .als to have this matter taken care of. /md I certainly support the petition. SOYE HON. 1-'E''BEP.S: Rear, hear! !P . SPEAKEP_: The hon. ~ember for LaP oile. ~- · NE.ARY: }'fr. Speaker, all us South,vest r:oasters and ~vest Coasters have to stick together, Sir. I support the prayer of the petition presented by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), Sir, because Bay St.

George is very familiar territory for my constituents as the two previous speakers well know. I suppose more fisherl!'_en from LaPoile district fish in the Bay St. George area than from any other part of Newfoundland fromjFox P_oost, Yargaree, Isle aux }forts, Burnt Islands, Rose Blanche, Harbour Le r.ou, Diamond Cove - ''"P.. YOPGAN: FThere do they fish? 3 "1- 1[', .... • -., f _. __

~farch 22, 1977 Tape 1151 IE-2 l~ • NEA. 'PY: In the Bay St. George area with their longliners. So it is very familiar territory for my constituents, Sir, and they v!Ould be very concerned about the exploitation of the herring industry in this Province, Sir. You knov7, ~'r. Speaker, the biggest culprit is B.C. Packers, the people who operate the herring plant in Isle aux ~~orts. They are the biggest culprits of all, Sir.

They come in and they operate a herring plant, this beautiful plant, in Isle aux ~orts where they got money from DPEE for refrigeration and for storage and ice making machines, and guaranteed year-round jobs. ~nd all they do, Sir, is operate twelve to fourteen weeks out of a year during the herring season. And they are the biggest culprits of all. They have exploited the industry and they come in here and they scrape everything off the bottom,as my hen. friend just indicated to the House, and I think it is time >¥e put a stop to it.

If these people are going to come in here and fish for herring, they should be forced by this government - NR. }·!Ul'PHY: How? Rm·r? ~. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, how? Because this government would have to give them a license, that is how. ~efuse to give them a license to process herring and force them into processing groundfish which they should be doing in that big fish plant in Isle aux !'~arts. So I support the prayer of the petition, Sir. I think it is time to put a stop to this exploitation of our herring fishery.

A few years back,if hon. members will recall,the big thing was to fish for herring off the Southwest Coast. They could not catch them fast enough. I remember,and the hen. former Premier will remembe~ in ·Isle aux 1·~orts the trouble they had with pollution from the - . fish plant down there. ~·any a sleeE_less n~ght ~,7 e sp~n~ in_ Cabinet trying to work out a solution to the proble1I'. of pollut::!.on, the fumes and the smoke that was coming out of the stacks in that plant in Isle aux 7-forts and the smell. It nearly wiperl out the ~·7hole commun::!.ty.

So we all recall, Sir, the exploitation of the herring fishery in this Province. I think it is about tim.e that ,,re started a

'!-~arch 22, 19 77 Tape 1151 IB-3 lfP . NEAPY: little management; of one of our most valuable natural resources. Therefore, Sir, I have no hesitatjon at all in supporting the prayer of that petition. SO~ RON. ~1E}'BEPS: Eear, hear! ~-· SPEAKER: The hon. membe-r for Stephenville. .1R. ¥ CNEI L: Mr. Speaker, I rise like my former colleagues in support of this petition so ably presented by my colleague from Port au Port (~r. Hodder) on behalf of 149 fishermen.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1152 Page 1 - mw HR. NCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, in my district we have seen the coming and going of fish plants, and the sole reason given for their disappearance overnight was the fact that the fish stocks were depleting. I think over the years we have seen from the Bay St.

George area - that the fishermen out in that area have pointed out time and time again that the problem was that seiners and the trawlers were overfishing the areas, into the spawning grounds, And they requested the provincial government to speak on their behalf to the federal government, and this is what we ask o~r . pJ:ovin~ial government to do, to bring our case to the federal government much stronger than they have done so far. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear , hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, naturally I support the petition, and like the hon. member stated, it is certainly not the responsibility of the Newfoundland Government to establish quotas or closing lines or anything else of that nature,with respect to herring, plus the fact for the information of my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary),the licence to harvest herring is issued and issued only by the Federal Department of Fisheries and Environment. But I can say this, Mr.

Speaker, and this is not news - it is on public record in Ottawa and in Newfoundland - that our policy is well-known in that we subscribe to the idea, to the proposition that small boatmen must be given first crack at the herring stocks. That is our policy. We have stated it time and time again. Ottawa is aware of that policy. The Herring Management Committee is well aware of it.

And we have adopted that position,! think,for the obvious reason that small boatmen, the men that I presume are operating in the Port au Port area, do not have the mobility that is required to move around to the various bays or 1 in fact~to follow the herring when, in fact,larger boats, the large seiners and the larger longliners do have that mobility.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1152 Page 2- mw MR. W. CARTER. So, Mr. Speaker, our position, I repeat, our position is quite clear. We support the proposition that small boat operators must have first crack at the herring,- SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: - and that the larger boats would only move in once the smaller boats have harvested to the extent of their capability. We are on record, Sir, in Ottawa and in other places in that regard.

But certainly with respect to the prayer of the petition, I will be very happy to make note of it, and to ensure that the authorities in Ottawa and the Herring Management Committee in Halifax again will be given the provincial government's position in that regard. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Would the hen. minister permit a question? MR. MURPHY: A supplementary question? MR. HODDER: No, on just what he was say mg. I want to ask the hen. minister as well when he spoke to the - MR. IDRGAN: Be quiet, 'Jim'. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Is this a point of order? MR. HODDER: No. MR.

SPEAKER (Dr. Collins):Order, please! Further petitions. NOTICE OF MOTION: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report of the matters transacted by the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations during 1976 under the provisions of the Labour Relations Act, Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, the Newfoundland Teacher Collective Bargaining Act, also the report of the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board for the year 1976 and the report of the Minimum Wage Board for 1976. Copies are available, Mr. Speaker, for members.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1152 Page 3 - mw ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTlCE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. ROUSS~U: The questions, Mr. Speaker, addressed to Minister of Public Works, No 87, the hon. member for LaPoUe (Mr. Neary) on February 9;· No. 123, the hon. member for LaPoile on February 17; Mo. 149 February 25 by the same hon. member for LaPoile. I do not know if there are any other questions from other hon. members, but those are the ones that are getting passed back to me, you know. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South.

March 22, 1977. Tape 1153 RH- 1 MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice. It was reported to me some time ago that within the last year there was one Mounted Policeman who patroled Hogan's Pond, St. Phillips, St. Thomas, Donovans Industrial Park, Paradise and up as far as Chamberlains, one man. Is this true? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T.A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have not got the foggiest idea. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: Would the man who is rumoured to be the Minister of Justice endeavour to find out? MR.

HICKMAN: The man who is rumoured to be the Minister of Justice will say without fear of contradiction that the Royal Canadian MOunted Police are doing a first-~lass job of policing this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I recognize the hon. gentleman for one additional supplementary. MR. NOLAN: No one questions whether the Mounted Police are doing a good job or not. The fact is are they permitted to do a good job? Now I would like to know from the minister how many bodies are there? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Order, please! Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that when the Chair intervenes he will have to cease even though nobody likes to be interrupted in the middle of a sentence. Now I was originally going to point out that the question was argumentative and would be out of order on that grounds. -The hon. member for LaPoile.

March 22, 1977. Tape 1153 RH- 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the }linister of Mines and Energy, Sir. I refer to an

article in The Daily News recently "Peckford doubtful money forthcoming for Labrador power study". There is a question of $500,000 involved there. The minister did not seem to know very much about it at the time this story was written. Does the minister know anymore about this $500,000 now to do research on the hydro power potential in Labrador offered by the Government of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. RON. B. PECKFORD: Negot!ations are proceeding with the appropriate officials in Ottawa and I hope that within the next two or three days to be able to make· a -st at ement- on that ·whole matter. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House if there was a phone call recently,or a telephone conversation recently~between the Premier and the Federal Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Gillespie in connection with the future development of the Lower Churchill? And if so, is the Premier, is this government interested in the proposal that Mr. Gillespie made to the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. PECKFORD: }rr.

Speaker, I am aware - I cannot say this with total validity - but I am aware that there was a telephone conversation between the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa and the Premier and that subsequently there was a conversation, a telephone conversation,between the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa and myself. There has been no proposal put on the table. The minister in Ottawa requested an update on cost of the Gull Island project. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary.

March 22, 1977. Tape 1153 RH- 3 MR. NEARY: Has the minister's department undertaken to get the Federal Minister of Mines and Energy the information that he requested to update all the information in connection with the development of the Lower Churchill? And how soon will this information be made available to the Government of Canada? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. PECKFORD: The first question "yes". The second question as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Finance, I would like to put a question to the House Leader. I wonder could the minister indicate how many patients of the Waterford Hospital have been sent home as a direct result of the present strike situation~ I understand a number have been. Could he indicate how many are involved? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr . Speaker, I am not in a pos !tio~ to answer that question and I would only be misleading the House if I attempted to hazard a guess. MR. SIMMONS: Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the Minister of Health could respond to the question if he would. :HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. HR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to give an accurate answer. I can undertake to do so. I would say the last time I I was briefed on it, it was in the order of eighty, ninety people. ~Vhether they have been sent home is one question. Some might have went home. Others might have gone to what is commonly referred to as a -psychiatric -patient -home. Some could very well have ~nde~ I - -- - - r up in other psychiatric units. But I can get the information for the han. member.

Marcll 22, 1977. Tape 1153 RH- 4 MR. SIMMONS: A suppl~entary. ~. SIMMONS: A supplementary to the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker. I refer again~ obviously~ to the information given that a ntmiber of people, we are not sure at the moment the exact number, but a substantial number of patients have been discharged from the Waterford on account of the strike situation. Is the minister aware whether this is placing particular demands on the R.C.M.P. in the sense that they have. to do extra supervision, surveillance, what have you7 And if that is the case, is he in a position to

March 22, 1977. Tape 1154 RH- 1 MR. SIMMONS: confirm that this situation in turn is infringing on the regular responsibilities of the other, ongoing respo~sibilities of the R.C.~i.P., the kind that my colleague from Conception Bay South(Mr. Nolan) alluded to earlier in his question~? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if it has imposed any additional responsibility on the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Newfoundland they have not indicated to me in any way whatsoever. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The original questioner, one additional supplementary. MR. SniMONS: Mr. Speaker, this is a fairly serious situation. I admire the minister's cool. I hope it does not also convey any lack of interest in the matter. Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the minister undertake at the earliest opportunity, perhaps during the course of the afternoo~to determine whether indeed the responsibilities of the R.C.M.P. or their efforts in carrying out their regular responsibilities~are being somewhat overburdened by this extra and rather unusual situation? It is my understanding that is very much the case.

I wonder would the minister indicate whether he could determine. that for us today? ~m.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would be more than happy to get the information asked for by the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). But may I say this, unless there has been within the last twenty minutes a major change in policy on the part of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, they have without fail advised me promptly of any change in their policing activities or increased burdens upon the force insofar as policing their part of the Province is concerned. And as of this minute they have not been in touch with me.

And I have sufficient confidence in the commanding officer of

March 22, 1977. Tape 1154 RH- 2 MR. HICKMAN: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Newfoundland to know and to say that if there was any added burden that in any way affected their policing capacity in Newfoundland I would have heard long ago and I have not. SOME HON. MEMBERS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I recognize the han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. Before he states his question- I have indicated that I will be recognizing the han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay- I recall ·to han. members what I said last week and that is the situation with respect to supplementaries.

As hon. members know, the standing orders provide the Speaker may recognize a certain number of supplementary questions in his discretion. During the past sort of ten days or two weeks I have noticed in going over that there are many less questions.. There ha.ve been long lists of supplementaries. And when other members are standing to their feet I only presume that there are other subjects they want to get on to. So in limiting sup_plementaries that does not mean that han. members cannot get back later in the period on that subject. It just will give people with other subjects an opportunity to ask questions.

There was one day last week where only six people were recognized. There were numbers of supplementaries, but only six,

whereas other times there have been up to fourteen or thirteen. I realize one cannot make a strong fast rule on it. But if after two supplementaries one is cut off or after three it does not mean that han. members cannot get back to the subject later during the question period. I think I indicated I recognize the bon. member for White Bay- Baie Verte. MR. T. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Rural Development. The minister will recall that late

March 22, 1977, Tape 1154 RH- 3 :t-IR. RIDEOUT: in last year's budget, it was indicated that the community consolidation programme would end as of the thirty-first of March this year. I am wondering if the minister could tell the House what will happen to applications that have been received before the cut-off date, whether or not they will be dealt with after the thirty-first of March or whether it will be a chop-off as of midnight on the thirty-first of March? What will happen to those applications? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. minister, HON. J.

LUNDRIGAN: Applications received after the thirty-first of December, 1976 will not be processed in the affirmative. In other words, last year when we announced the end of the programme, last estimate done, I believe it was, we gave notice- -~~ n~~~~~ation_s ____ _ with the Federal Government that there would be no funding in the fiscal year, 1977-78 for resettlement. That means after the end of this month there will be no fiscal programme.

What we did as well announce -- , is that after the thirty-first of December, 1976 that any applications received would be considered ineligible for assistance and that is the way we proceeded. So consequently, officially the resettlement programme is dead as far as any assistance to any person moving is concerned. And looking ahead to the present year, the only funding, if any, that will be appropriated would be money for perhaps one individual that will maintain the files and any kind of other _ -p_a':t syf _c~eaiiing up activity that will be necessary in the coming year. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary please. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: I understand from the minister that the cut-off date for application was the thirty-first of December, 1976. Could the minister tell the House whether or not there are

~·~arch 22, 1977 Tape 1155 IB-1 YP • P.IDEOPT : any of those applications are still under active consideration. I 1--no¥7 some people tvho could not move because of land problems until the Spring but their application ~\'as placed very early last year. Those people I would assume are not out of the bag are they? ~·-fr. Speaker, there ¥.7ere the last fet\1 and there have only been a very few applications processed since we scrapped the list of resettled communities and people sort of have gotten the message that resettlement is actually dead.

There have been very few people really a.ppliec1 and the thing is r~ally amazing the "~"vay it is phased down. I will give the statistics in the estimates coming up in a fetv ¥.7 eeks. Now as far as any resettlement applications are concerned we have approved a few recently that came in before December 31 and there might be one or two that are technically out of orde~ if you want. They have come in subsequent to the thirty-first. We are looking at these right now. There is one in the hon. rrtember's riding I believe and this is what I presume is provoking his question. He are looking at it. It is a technicality.

I personally feel strongly that we should not even look at anything beyond the thirty-first of December, 1976. There is one that we are departmentally debating and t•re will have to look at it in terms of whether it was legitimate or could have been a legitimate application prior to December 31. ¥R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. ~. HODDER: }'r. Speaker, yesterday I asked a question of the Pre~ier or the ¥inister of Transportation and Communications concerning a formal application from this Province to the ~inister of Transport, Otto Lang1 on the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Rightvay.

I wonder ~~uld the minister tell the Eouse on what c!ate that formal application went to the federal government from Newfoundland? The han. Hinister of Transportation. MP.. ¥0?.G.AN : ur. Speaker, a formal application was made to the federal government, in fact, celivered to the federal government, ~elivered to

~·arch 22, 1977 Tape 1155 IB-2 VP.. YORGAN: the federal minister himself and to his senior officials by a delegation consisting of my counterpart in Nova Scotia, my counterpart in New Bruns'tvick, my counterpart in P .E .I and myself from this Province. That application - if the hon. gentleman on the other side finds it amusing I do not find it amusing at all. MR. RODDER: The answer is amusing. P.R. ~ORGAN: Do you ~~nt the answer to the question? !''P.. SPEAKFP.: Order, please! The hon. minister is required to proceed with the answer and not debate it. ~--fr.

Speaker, I was pointing out that in orCler to answer _the question I take strong exception to snide comments from the other side of the House of Assembly. vr. Speaker, it is a very serious matter because in 9ur Province the Trans-Canada Highway was completed in 1965 by a drive to finish the highway in 1965.It was built to a sub-standard compared to the rest of the country of Canada and it is now essential - AN HON. ~"E}:ffiEP. : Answer the question. MR. MORGAN: - that the necessary work be carried out and based on that, :1--fr.

Speaker, based on the most essential factor that r..re get this work done as soon as possible a formal application was ~ade in March of 1976. -MR. HODDER: Thank you. :t-4P. MOP. GAt~: That application 'tvas followed up by means of serious discussions and negotiations in pr2ctically every month of the year since then. Yr. Speaker, I take strong exception to any indication from the other side no application has been made. }"R. HODDEP.: A supplementary, :r-~r. Speaker. fR . SPEAKEP.: The original questioner, a supplementary. M? .• HODD~: ~·r.

Speaker, I 'tvould ask the 1-!inister of Transportation and Communications did the Province of Newfoundland on its o~~ make submission before this particular time. ]'R . SPEA ... T<EP.: The hon. ~!inister of Transportation and Gormnunications.

~'arch 22, 1977 Tape 1155 IB-3 Vr. Speaker, I 2m of the firt!'l. impression and the factual information to the fact that my predecessors, my colleague fromHenihek Urr. P.ousseau), my colleague fro!!'. St. Jop.n 1 s East (Pr. ~arshall) and my colleague from Humber East (Dr. Farrell), all three of them Made application and made representation on a repeated basis to the federal level of government for the same monies required for the upgrading of the Trans-Canada ~Ugh~.;ray. ~fP.. HODDE"~'.: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. }~ .. SPEAKER: The original questioner. }'m_.

HODDER: lvould the· hon. :Hinister ?f Transportation and Communications enceavour to table the particular proposal put forward by the Province of Newfoundland? SO~ RON. }~}~ERS: Rear, hear! ~. SPEAKER: The hon. 1-~inister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: Yr. Speaker, t~e subject referred to is under very serious discussion and negotiation with the federal level of government and I have no intention at this time,prior to a decision being made by the federal level of governMent, of tabl:f.ng any documents or any material relevant to these discussions and negotiations. MR.

SPE~~R: I recognize the hon. member for ' LaPoile for one and the final supplementary. '~-~- . NE..A..P.Y : ~Vr. Speaker, it is most unusual for the }-finister of Transportation, the provincial ¥inister of Transportation, to be out of the Province when his counterpart, the federal l~inister of Transportation, Otto Lang, coming - will the minister tell - 't-1!'.. SPEA.T<EP: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that only such information as is necessary to make the question intelligible may be prefixed. And While not knowing the question, it is difficult to envision what question

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1156 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: would require that particular

preamble. ~. NEARY: Well, Sir, I want to ask the minister if a meeting has been arranged bet~-1een the minister and his federal counterpart, and if not why not? Why is the minister leaving the Province when Mr. Lang is coming here on Monday. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it happens that my responsibilities are not jus.t merely to transportation.

The division of communications is a very important aspect of the Department of Transportation and Communications and it happened to be that commencing next Monday in Edmonton, Alberta, all the ministers in the country responsible for communications are meeting with the Federal ~inister of Communications and our senior officials . on a federal-provincial meeting." That meeting will commence on Monday and carry on until Wednesday. MR. NEARY: lvas the minister asked to meet with Mr. Lang. MR. MORGAN: And with regards to Mr.Lang, my counterpart in the federal level of government, in fact, Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased he is coming to the Province - MR. NEARY: Was the minister invited to meet with him? PREMIER MOORES: I will fill in for him. MR. MORGAN:-· Aild I ·a.m sure the hon. the Premier will be only too pleased to sit in on my behalf. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

Would the minister advise the House as to what the government's position is relatfve to the specially equipped DC 6 that they propose· propose to use in the experimental programme, spraying programme, is it the government's intention to purchase or lease this aircraft~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1156 }ffi. MAYNARD: Well, Mr. Speaker, we will not be buying any aircraft for a three day operation. I do not think it would be advisable. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate to the House from whom they are going to lease the aircraft? MR. H. COLLINS: Gander Aviation. MR. MAYNARD: We are not sure yet but there are only one or two companies in North America that can supply that type of aircraft so when that decision is made I will certainly advise the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance and the President of Treasury Board. I wonder if the minister is in a position today to inform us as to what progress the government have made to dat~ with respect to the Waterford situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I regret once again that we have not had any further overtures from the union so I can report no change in the situation. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR.

LUSH: I wonder if the minister could inform·the House as to what steps the government plan to take to resolve this situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Well as I have indicated here day after day, Sir, we are most anxious to have the strike ended. We want to have a reasonable and sensible resolution to the problem and we are anxious and willing to meet with the union any time they indicate their desire to do so. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary. ~,~ -~ ~~~a

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1156 NM- 3 MR. LUSP.: I wonder if the minister could inform the House under what conditions do the New·foundland Constabulary work in the \\faterford Hospital? MR.. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: The conditions at the Waterford as I have indicated are excellent Your Honour. The patients are being well looked after. The standard of patient care is excellent, according to the medical authorities in charge.

As for the function·of the ConEtabularY. which is probably the intent of the question, they are there as a security force only, for the protection perhaps of the patients and of the staff. MR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner, a supplementary. MR. LUSH: To make the question more equisite I tvas wondering whether the Newfoundland ConstabularY were afforded any special privileges with respect to pa~ and particularly with respect 'to privileges extended by the cafeteria sP.rvices at the Waterford~ MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: No, Sir, to the best of my knowledge,and I am absolutely certain on the pay area 1 the Newfoundland Constabulary are working under the same pay

schedule today as they were at the beginning of their present collective agreement. As to the cafeteria privileges, I do not know what the intent of that particular question is, I do not quite understand it, whether they are entitled to a second cup of coffee or something like that, I do not know. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the han. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: It is not a supplementary, Sir. i{R. SPEAKER: No, not a supplementary. MR. STRACFJL~: A question for the Minister of ~ines and Energy. Could the minister c~nfirm that his department's and therefore the administration's considered legal position that the imnosition

&rch 22 7 1977 Tape no. 1156 NH - 4 MR. StRACHAN: of a tax on Churchill Falls power would interfe .re with the contract signed between CFLCo. and Quebec Hydro. MR. NOLAN: He is not allowed to give a legal opinion. As a matter of fact he C:annot give any opinion. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Energy. MR. PECKFORD: I refer that matter to my colleague, the Minister of Justice.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1157 Page 1 - mw MR. STRACHAN: And the question to the Minister of Justice then was, Is it the administration's opinion that the position they cannot impose a tax on Churchill Falls power without interfering with the contract signed between CFLCo and Quebec Hydro? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing the bon. Minister of Justice, bon. members are aware that one cannot ask a question asking for a legal opinion. It may be that that question can be answered without giving a legal opinion. It may be that it can be answered by giving an ~conomic opinion or something else.

That I am not prepared to judge. I just point out that particular rule. The bon. minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will assiduously refrain from giving a legal opinion on this matter. I will also assiduously refrain from saying anything which could in anyway in the future prejudice in any way other avenues that may or may not be open to the Province of Newfoundland. I would simply say t!\at the various documents and agreements that are presently in force have been ratified by Statute, and it is not a question of jurisdiction, It is a question of far more than that.

One very serious question is whether or not any activity in that field - and the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) will know whereof I speak, and I know his concern in this, that any untoward or ill-considered or emotional step in that direction, what effect that might have in giving to Quebec Hydro a control that no Newfoundlander would be prepared to tolerate. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the explicit provisions of the Province's covenants in the financial agreement in the financial agreement - that is Statutory convenants - and the trust deed, the government has to be awfully careful and will continue to be very careful that nothing is done that would impair the credit of the Province to the extent that we would no longer have the right of entry into the u.s. 3r '- ... ~:1.:.1

March 22, 19 77 Tape no. 1157 Page 2 - mw Mr. Hiclanan. market, particularly as far as institutional purchasers are concerned. And secondly, ~~. Speaker, I say this without prejudice, that even a first year law student - and I repeat a first year law student - with one week in law school would realize that any amendment to the lease or any amendments to the legislation would most likely constitute a default. And in the event of default there is very little doubt--as the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) knows what that could lead to .- MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. HICKMAN: That is a unilateral amendment.

That is right, a unilateral amendment. - would undoubtedly raise a very good question that this administration will never, never place the government or people of Newfoundland in; ·namely, that by doing that it could give Quebec Hydro control of that asset and there is no way that this government, that the Moores Administration would ever tolerate that kind of nefarious scheme that is bad in law, bad in policy and bad for every living Newfoundlander. SOME RON. :MEMBERS : MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Again to the Minister of Mines and Energy.

Since I am referring to a statement of his, could the minister inform us whether he believes that it is theoretical and could he then tell us whether the power recall, 800 megawatts of power, will be returned on the ' 1st.of October, 1983? Is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what

article he is quoting me fran, but, you know, I can talk to the han. member about it. But, you know, I said no such thing that the recall of power -that is before the courts right now, and it is for the courts to decide. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the bon. gentleman from Carbonear.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1157 Page 3- mw MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to the Minister of Finance, Sir, in connection with the members of the Newfoundland Constabulary who are working down at the Waterford. Would the minister tell the House if these policemen are working at the Waterford during regular working hours, during their regular shift as policemen or are they working after hours, overtime, in other words getting a double shift, working their regular shift and then going to work at the Waterford after hours? Is this the situation? Would the minister tell the House? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: The Newfoundland Constabulary, Your Honour, are working just about around the clock these days. Forces are obviously extended to their limit. They do not have superfluous men. They do not have people sitting around waiting for something to happen. So obviously ~hen ~,--~ .. ("~ -~"" VN...ii..J

March 22, 1977. Tape 1158 RH- 1 MR. DOODY: an emergency such as the Waterford occurs, then the people who put the hours in in there have to do it in overtime. Now there is regular shift people in there and there are overtime people in there. There are people who are working their days off. There are member of the Newfoundland Constabulary who have not had a day off in over thirty days. And these people who are working on their days off are obviously getting paid the overtime rate as per the collective agreement. If we had that many policemen on this force in St.

John's where they could make that many available on regular shift duty, then one would have to question the administration of the force. MR. -NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Would the minister then tell the House if these policemen . who are working overtime,being paid overtime at the Waterford, if they are ordered by their superiors to work or are they doing it on a voluntary basis? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, the member of the Newfoundland Constabulary are governed by the Newfoundland Constabulary Act.

They do their duty as they are ordered to do their duty. They are a police force, first, last and foremost. And I must say they are a very excellent police force and this Province is very, very proud of them. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: And I say if thev want to put in their overtime hours, whether it be done by order or whether it be done by their own volunteer effort, I think that we should be grateful to them and we should not be questioning them. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The original questioner for a final supplementary.

March 22, 1977. Tape 1158 RH- 2 MR. NEARY: Would the mini.ster tell the House if their salaries, their ninety dollars they are being paid per shift, is it being accumulated and will be paid in the next fiscal year or are they being paid now by the week of semi-monthly or by the month? How will they be paid? Will it be a lump sum payment or are they being paid on regular pay davs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: The regular pay

schedule that is arranged and has been underway during the past years through the regular civil service channels is still ih being. There have been no changes made. Any ~V'ages, any payments, any overtime, any salaries, anythin~~t that is due to anybody in the public service is paid through the normal channels and under the normal conditions. There have been no changes made to my knowledge. There have been none authorized and there will be none. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: A question, Mr. Speaker, to the han. minister of Transportation and Communications.

Would the minister be kind enough to inform the House if it is his department's intention to complete phase· two of the Carbonear by-pass road this year? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is the intention of this department to complete as much work as possible with regards to road work as the budget will allow. MR. MOORES: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary • . MR.

MOORES: Would the minister be kind enough to inform the House if there is any truth to the fact that the multi-million dollar mall in Carbonear has been delayed because of the government's reluctance to give a commitment on the completion of that road? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister.

March 22, 1977. Tape 1158 RH- 3 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the construction of a proposed new mall in the Carbonear area, if it has been halted - to my knowledge a recent announcement was made that they are going full-speed ahead and the construction will commence in the early Spring. There is no obstacle,and. I repeat,no obstacle whatsoever in their path with relation to the Department of Transportation and Communications. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation inform the Rouse whether the stadia at St.

Georges, Ferryland and Placentia are successful financially? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. COLLINS: I presume, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is talking about the operation of the stadiums. MR. CALLAN: Right. Are they successful? MR. COLLINS: Well, what is the hon. gentleman getting at? MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. minister should know that these stadia were never built. My supplementary is why have these promised stadia which have been included in two buagets, why have they not yet been built? MR..

SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The time is up.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1159 Page 1 - ~1S MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, before 1i7e proceed to Orders of the Day, Sir, may I raise a question of the utmost ~ravity which I believe involves the privileges of the House, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~R. ROBERTS: I might say, Sir, it involves the Premier, and I regret I have not had the opportunity to give him notice. He was not in the Chamber a little earlier.

And I would point out, Sir, that pa~e 170 of the current edition of May says, "If a member who makes a complaint against another member has failed or he had been unable to give the member notice of his intention to do so, the more regular course is to adjourn further consideration of the matter of the complaint to a future day and to order the member whose conduct is impugned to attend the House in his place on that day~' So the matter once I state what I believe to be the question of privilege may have to be deferred, Sir.

Hy statement is based on evidence which has come into my possession this day, Sir, which I believe to be correct and accurate. I believe it constitutes a prima facie case of a breach of the privileges of this House, Sir. The report of the Auditor General, Sir, refers to three companies which received considerable payments from the government during the 1975-1976 fiscal year in circumstances which the Auditor General felt were questionable. It' is paragraph ninety-six. It is found on page 107,108,109 of the Auditor General's Report.

One of those companies, Sir, was later revealed by the Minister of Public Works to be A.B. Walsh Electrical Limited. Sir, during the 1975-1976 fiscal year, according to the report of the Auditor General to the House, that company received in excess of $1.1 million in business from this government. Sir, my information is that in Christmas~at some point in December or January, December last or January last, December 1976 or January 1977, that company bought and paid for a very expensive television set valued at approximately $1,300. Sir, that television set,! am

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1159 Page 2 - HS ~r. Foberts. informed,was delivered to the Mount Scio House, the present residence of the Premier. IRENIE~ MOORES: State it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I will state my prima facie case. It was paid, Sir, by the company A.B. Walsh Electrical Limited. I do not know, Hr. Speaker, who paid A. B. Walsh Limited. I only know that A. B. I•Talsh Limfted paid the vendor of that set. Mr. Speaker, I submit this is a prima facie breach of the privilege of the House. I think, Mr.

Speaker, it is an allegation of the utmost seriousness, and I am prepared to move the necessary and appropriate motion if Your Honour should find it in order. Sir, the motion~ as Your Honour will concur~ would.be to set up a committee on privileges and elections to investigate this with the power to send for witnesses and papers to examine them under oath. That .;.yay, Sir, we will find out whether the evidence which I have been given or the information which I have been given is accurate and correct. I have the serial number of the television set, Sir.

In case there is any doubt, I have the make of it •. ~d I believe what I said to be correct. ~'Thether or not it is correct would be a matter for the standing committee to test, Sir. But I make the statement and I believe it to be a prima facie breach of the privileges of this House and I would accordingly, if it is in order, move the appropriate resolution, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: What the Leader of the Opposition says is once again half-right. It was just before Christmas when the television we had in the House broke down.

I phoned Mr. lvalsh to see if he had anyone who could repair it. A person came and said, nThey could not.'' He said.that he could get a television that he could put

Narch 22, 1977 Tape no. 1159 Page 3 - NS Premier Noores. in there for that period of time whilSt the Other one was being repaired. The television came in. After having it in the House for a few days I phoned ~~r. Halsh, got the amount that T,vas paid for it, paid Walsh Ele.ctric for it, and I assume he paid the person who brought it in. And, Sir, I find this most despicable that this sort of thing be brought in -.;.rithout anyone even having asked. I find it incredible, Sir, that the Leader of the Opposition would bring, this in without having asked what the true facts were of the principles involved.

I find it unbelievable, Sir. MR.. ROBERTS : The television set, Sir, was the third television set delivered to the house of the Premier on the given day. The first one was not acceptable to him or to somebody in his house. It was sent back. A .second one -.:vas sent. !-fr. Speaker, the Premier makes a statement. I make a statement.

The only way we will know the truth of it,~ir - only one of us is correct - the only way we will know the truth of it, Sir, is to set up the Committee on Privileges and El~ctions and let them send for the Let them send for the papers, examine the ~vitnesses upon oath and then make their report and let the chips, Sir, fall where they may. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HeS:r, hear! MR. • SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please!

As han. members are aware,what the onus of the Chair is when a matter such as this has been brought up is to make two decisions, whether the matter has been drmvn to the attention of the Chair and the House, at the earliest opportunity, and whether there

March 22, 1977 Tape 1160 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker: was a prima facie case-Before .making any of those decisions I would certainly invite comment, relevant comment, not debate, relevant comment from hon. members who wis~ to do so. The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, PREMIER MOORES: . ~oy~ that is ridiculous! !..l!l&.. HI.£KMAN:; .. ~ thi~ ~s the __ most scandalous, most outrageous - PREMIER MOORES: Unbelievable. It is unbelievable • . _.ron .:.. arf! . ri2ht. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! PRIDITER MOORES: That is low.- . That is low .• -- SOME HON.-MEMBER~: -- - -Hear, hear~ MR.

HICKMAN: - attempts that I ever heard. And I would challenge the hon. member from Twillingate (Mr. Sma-ylwood) to deny this,because he has been in the House a lot longer than I have, the hon. gentleman has -the most outrageous innuendo, not accusation, that I have heard in this House since I have been a member, since 1966.

There was no allegation of impropriety, which is absolutely essential, . - - ~ - -- absolutely essential to any prima facie case,.Second~y; the hon. the Premier has set forth very clearly the position, and thirdly, may I ask Your Honour when considering this matter,as I am sure Your Honour will,to also consider whether or not there has been a libel committed on a member, an hon. member of this House, namely the Premier, by the hon. Leader of the Opposition by his innuendo. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial And Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say, maybe to reiterate the remarks of the hon. House Leader, that I am not clear in my mind as to what particular position the Leader of the Opposition has taken. He has come out with innuendo, he has come out with a suggestion. Does his question of privilege - AN HON. MEMBER: This is

March _22, 1977 Tape 1160 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Does his question of privilege lay a charge? AN RON. MEMBER: No. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Does his question of privilege make a statement that the Premier is a crook?-~at he is a thief? That he is not equal among fifty-one members? Because we are fifty-one equals, this is the number one characteristic of people in the House of Assembly, the House of Parliament, representatives of the people, that we are peers. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has made a statement that the Premier is not a peer among the members of this House.

Now it is going to be incumbent on the Leader of the Opposition, having made the statement that ~t does, that he has to place all of his cards on the table. He has gone ahead, he has not had the principle to consult with the Premier to find out what was behind it. He has latched on to a little bit of something that he thinks is a major scandal, and he has come out with it, he has thrown it out, he hopes the chips will fall where they may, Your Honour. But the fact of the matter is that he has put everything on the line.

And I am just hoping that he is going to be able to stand up in this House and make a charge, and lay a charge,because that is essentially what he has done through the backdoor. Now this is unreal. I have never seen the like of this in my few years around Parliament. I have been involved in a half a dozen years of Parliamentary activity. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: And I want to be clear, Your Honour, - MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! As hon. members are aware, number one, there can be no interruption while a point of privilege is being made.

I cannot recognize points of order or internal points of privilege. Therefore there is an extra onus on the Chair to maintain order, and members may ·not ·debate·it. I would ask the bon. minister to bear that in mind in speaking relevantly to the point. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I just want to sort of try to put in clear perspective the comments that the House Leader has made. And that

March 22, 1977 Tape 1160 PK - 3 Mr. Lundrgian: is that the Leader of the Opposition has committed something which is most grievous. He stood·in·h±s place-and he has thrown out on the waters of the public of the Province through the House of Assembly a whole kind of area of accusation .He has not specifically made a charge.

And I want Your Honour in dealing with the question of privilege to recognize that if the Leader of the Opposition is improper in his accusation, and his general disposition on this particular issue, that he is aware as well of the consequences of his behaviour, and I would hope that in making the ruling that fifty-one members of this House will stand in their place when the ruling is made and the information that the Premier has given is properly interpreted by the House,that the members, the fifty-one members or fifty members of this House will take the appropriate action regarding the Leader of the Opposition. .

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition • MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the only issue before the Chair since the timeliness question has not and cannot be raised, is whether or not a prima facie case has been made. Now the rest of it is debate, and I would love to debate it. The fact remains that Company A, A.B. Walsh Electrical Limited,purchased and caused to be delivered to the Premier of this Province a television set worth in excess of $1,000. Company A,

l.farch 22, 1977 Tape 1161 IB-1 MR.. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, has come in for considerable comment from the Auditor General of this Province because company·A, A.B. Walsh Electrical Limited,received over $1 million worth of business in circumstances which the Auditor General of this Province thought fit to draw to the notice of we, the House of Assembly, in his report. I state, Sir, that constitutes a prima facie breach of the privileges of this House. If it does then,Your Honour, the appropriate motion would be moved by me. It is a debatable motion.

The House would decide \,nether or not the motion was to be accepted • The motion would be to refer the matter to the Committee on Privileges and Elections.! would think, Sir, the Premier -.;.;rould be the very first to ask to have this done because that Committee has the power to send for ~r. Walsh~or whoever else was involved,to examine them under oath, to have the documents prepared and then, if, as the Premier says - and I do not question what he says - he drew a ch~que on the day in question or shortly thereafter and sent the bill to A.B.

Walsh Electrical Limited, a firm who are not in the television sale business but who are in business in this Province, then, Sir, the matter would die right there. And if the member for Grand Falls wishes to take some further action , then that of course would be dealt with. The only allegation, Sir, the only question - I am sorry- before the Chair is whether or not there is a prima facie breach of the privileges of this House. I submit, Sir, that in the circumstances which I have outlined there is such a prima facie breach.

If that is in order, Sir, then the motion will be moved and the matter \~11 be decided by the House and from then on according to the decision of the . House. l4R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. !'~. S¥..ALLHOOD: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might be heard as a senior member of this Rouse,as a Privy Councillor and as a former Premier for twenty-three years. Nothing worse could happen to Newfoundland than that anyone in high place, in high position, would lie under this kind of charge, silently~so that across Canada and across

1-~arch 22, 1977 Tape 1161 IB-2 i'"R. SHALUlOOD: the world tonight, by Canadian Press and by CBC,the word will go that a responsible member of the E .. ouse, namely the Leader of the 0 "ti . -· PPOSJ , on, makes certain categorical allegations that are not answered except orally by the Premier himself. Now we must, every member of this Rouse, be jealous of the Premier's reputation because he is the Premier of the whole Province and in his name and in his holding, in his hands, lies the reputation of this Province.

He cannot have the leading - next to the Governor, ~~o is the personal rep~esentative of the Monarch . - the highest person in the land, higher than the Chief Justice, higher than the Supreme .Court judges or any judges or any courts, the highest person in the land must not allow this to stand by a mere and simple denial. In his own interest,but more especially in the interest of Newfoundland, the whole Province, all of us, he must, I think he ~.rill agree, I would hope that he would be· eager and very anxious and eager, determined,that this matter be exposed.

Now if,as, God forbid the Premier is shown to have committed an indiscretion - and surely it Hould not be very much more than that even if it w·ere as alleged - it would be too bad. But much worse ~..rould be the word to go right across r.anada, "1-~y Cod, what kind of a crowd are they do~m there in Newfoundland. T.fuat kind of a crowd are they? The Premier is charged in so-and-so and merely denies it." The Premier will be surely the first to want this thing exposed and put at rest. He will want that done. The House cannot blame the Leader of the Opposition. If information comes to him, what is he going to do?

He cannot supress it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! 1:-'R. SJ:.f.ALLWOOD: And it has come to him and he has put it before Your Honour. He has put it to Your Honour. He has put it to the House. ft~d surely the one honourahle member of this House ~mo with most alacrity, most eagerness, will want the matter ventilated properly, in proper parliamentary fashion,is the hon. the Premier. J..nd I, as one who occupied the position he occupies,and one who ~s under attack many a t5.me, I want to express

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1162 NM- 1 ~. SMALV.J'OOD: my sympathy for the position in which he finds himself. I express sincere sympathy for that, but by the same token he surely,more than anyone,will want this matter disposed of. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. I would hope that if there are any further hon. members going to speak that they would realize that a number of opinions have been canvassed on both sides of the House and obviously this cannot develop into a debate, So I will certainly hear the hon. gentleman.

Anyone else who feels that he has a contribution to make I will hear, and then I shall give my decision at the earliest opportunity. The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. ~. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is fairly clear what has happened here in the past few moments and also __ q_uite serious what has taken place. And I believe the first thing we must avoid doing is the instinctive thing, pound our tables and to shout,Shame. Either the Leader of the Opposition has some facts which are correct,or they are not.

I hAve known,as many of us in this House has known,the Leader of the Opposition for a long time. And hes _ even in his own -if he had no other motivation, in his own selfish interest,would not come into this House today and lightly toss some irresponsible allegation across the floor or some innuendo or whatever else it has been labelled so far in the past few moments. -· So let- i.is, Mr. Speaker, let us clear the air first of all~and I say that a lot more in sadness than in anger,because what I have heard from the Leader of the Opposition effects me.

John Donne - was it? .said, "No man is an island," and as this goes out across the Province it only re-enforces what the public,or too large a portion of us thinks already about politicians generally, including me, is that

~~rch 22, 1977 Tap e No. 1162 NM - 2 MR. SIMMONS: somehow we are less than an honourable ~ot. So this affects me and affects me adversely. I am sure it pains the Leader of the Opposition to bring it here today as much as it does me~because nobody gains, Mr. Speaker, let us be clear, nobody is gaining from this kind of a charge this afternoon and the suggestion that someho~V' it is being done for that kind of a motive is regrettable. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if I may have some· order. I can appreciate the situation. I was as shocked at the minister from St. John's Centre (Mr. A.

Murphy) was shocked when I heard it about a quarter·to three. I can appreciate his shock but if he could contain himself for a moment I will complete my remarks very, very soon. Mr. Speaker, we have heard if'_ the comments made by the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition respectively two bits of information, both bits are not correct because they are mutually exclusive. And the Premier has said that separate sets were delivered on separate days. The Leader of the Opposition said that three sets were delivered in turn on the same day. MR. ROBERTS: Two sets on one ·day, the third later. MR. SIMMONS: I am sorry.

Two sets on the one day. I correct what I just said, two sets on the same day and another on a separate day. AN FON • MEMBER: Three of them. MR. SIMMONS: No. No. No. ~~. Speaker, in turn and the understanding is they were returned and another set brought in. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must ask the hon. gentleman to conclude his remarks now. I believe certainly in the past ten or fifteen minutes I think I have heard various aspects arid--comments on the question which I must decide,and I would ask the hon. gentleman to bring his remarks to a conclusion so there will be no tendency to debate. MR.

S~ONS: Sure. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was not wanting to

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1162 NM - 3 MR. SL~ONS: drag the House into debate. I think it is far too sad and far too serious a matter for that,and I apologize if I contributed to that, Mr. Speaker. ~. MURPHY: Is that right? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, could I have some silence while I speak? MR. STRACHAN: There is no need for that nonsense over there. PREMIER MOORES:. Do not be sanctimonious, for Christ's sake, Let us just get it cut. MR. Sm.iONS: Mr. Speaker, is that parliamentary language we hear from the Premier? MR. MURPHY: No,it is very natural though. MR..

SIMMONS : It is very natural for that Premier perhaps,but I do not think it is par~for the course. Mr. Speaker, if I may conclude without having to suffer the harassment I am right ·now? Mr. Spe~ker,I believe there are right now deeper and broader implications than are immediately apparent from the statements from the Leader of the Opposition. I have reason to believe that. And I would caution all of us , Mr. Speaker, ' '; " ~ rt : -: t u,.(J;o.,/

March 22, 1977, Tape 1163, Page 1 -- apb MR.. SIMMONS : not to practice the creed here today, "My party right or wrong~' before we know what we are talking about. I cautioned the Minister of_~ublic works three weeks ago to make sure he made a full statement and· I believe he did in so far as he knows. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I feel I have heard the hon. gentleman's arguments .up to this point. If there are no further additional, relevant, new points to be made then I will consider I will have heard sufficient. AN_HOtL MEMBER: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, p~lease!

I cannot hear a point of order or a point of privilege - AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speak_er - MR. LUNDRIGAN: He cannot hear a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Sit down, boy! MR. SPEAKER: Order; please! Order, please! It is quite clear that a point of order cannot interrupt during consideration of a point of privilege. That puts the onus quite strictly on the Chair to maintain order. But I cannot hear a point of order or a different point of privilege while a point of privilege is being considered. That is quite clear.

I can give references, I gave them about two weeks ago and they are in the Hansard of about two weeks ago. The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I draw to Your Honour's attention page 96 of Beauchesne,which I am sure is familiar to all hon. members. If it is not,and an bon. member ever brought a charge here without first reading it he would be subject to great censorship, I would suggest.

It says this, "A dispute arising between two bon. members as to allegations of facts hardly fulfills the . conditions of a privile~ed ques~ion, and, if deemed to be a matter to be once entertained, it is more convenient to postpone other

March 22, 1977, Tape 1163, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: business rather than extend the area of privilege." I say, Mr. Speaker, that at the very most, at the very most, this falls into this particular category. With respect to the questions raised by the hon. gentleman frnm Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), I have no doubt at all that if the Chair finds that there is not a prima facie case made out against the Premier, then the Premier most assuredly has his own action he can take with respect to the imputations raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition without first consultation with the Premier. MR..

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, if I might be permitted to respond very briefly to the P?int made by the Minister of Justice, Sir, this is not a question of differences of fact or difference · of opinion, allegations of facts, this is the normal rule that is applied in debate at all times on most so-called questions of privilege. Sir, this is a question not of difference of allegation.if the Premier has admitted receiving the television set in question. He then says he paid for it and I do not quarrel with that. I do not quarrel with that, I accept the Premier's word.

But I wlll say, Sir, as the point was made so eloquently and with such force by the gentleman from Twillingate, that in the circumstances this is a prima facie - now that is not a breach of privilege as Your Honour will agree - it is a prima facie breach of privileges in the circumstances and that it should be put to the test. I.t, Sir, is the Committee which will consider the evidence and report thereon. It is the Committee which will recommend to the House whether there has been a breach,in their opinion, and if so what further action, if any, should be taken.

The only question now before the Chair is whether Your Honour wishes to allow - whether Your Honour feels it is in order to allow a motion

March 22, 1977, Tape 1163, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : to be ma.de.,which I assume would be put without debate,and then a Committee would be struck immediately and set to work, and then the evidence could be - as the gentleman from Twillingate said, speaking from twenty-three years in the Premier's chair, the Premier should be the very first to do this. I might add that it is fairly - I have made no allegations and statements other than what I have said, and I do not intend to~but it is fairly common around St. John's.

I have heard it several places, and I finally was given some evidence today and felt it my duty to bring it to the House which I have done. MR. SPEAKER: I shall have to give this matter serious consideration and will make my decision known as soon as I can. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKMAN: Order 4. MR. SPEAKER: Order 4, .the adjourned debate on Bill 14. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I believe I adjourned the debate.

This is the Minister of Education's bill, I believe, to set up the polytechnic institute.Somewhere in this mass of parliamentary procedure and reference books I have the bill. Here we are, Sir, Bill No. 14~ Mr. Speaker, when !·had spoken yesterday I had most of the points that I wished to make with respect

March 22, 1977 Tape 1164 JM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: to this bill. Perhaps I might be permitted to reiterate them briefly. First of all, Sir, let me make it quite clear,as my colleagues who spoke earlier did,that we have no objection to the bill. We are not going to vote against it. It would be very difficult to vote against it because it really does very little,as the minister I think will concede~except to set up a new board to replace the existing boards of two separate institutions and then make some provision for the establishment of new faculties - and so forth. In other words, at best it is an idea.

At best it is the statement of an intention, the statement of a policy. I made further references that it was a cosmetic bill,and I mean that. I think it a fair and an honest and an accurate criticism, that it is a cosmetic act and not one of any new substance. It is hardly a great step forward. I had also given it as my opinion and those of my colleagues that some real consideration ought to be given to making available outside St. John's, outside the St. John's area, out in the area to the West of the overpass,to use the familiar phrase, some form of post-secondary institution.

We now have the Western Regional College in Corner Brook,and all of us whose constituencies lie in the Western part of this Province will say that has been a very fine thing indeed. But, Sir, there is nothing in between and if we are going to establish new institutions then we believe, Sir, that consideration should be given to establishing those institutions in some other part of the Island.

There is the matter of the unresolved promise, the promise made by the Premier at the Rotarymeeting in Corner Brook some three or four years ago,at which time the then Minister of Education was then the minister for the then district of St. Mary's, there was coosiderable discussion here in the House between the then minister,who now occupies an even more august position, Sir, and my friend and colleague and sometime supporter, the member

March 22, 1977 Tape 1164 JM- 2 MR. ROBERTS : for Trinity -Bay de Verde,who was then the member for St. Barbe North,and at that time a commitment was made by the Premier speaking in Corner Brook _ i~ ~e~alf of the government,made to the people of Corner Brook in Western Newfoundland that a !egional college would be built,and that an institution would be built in Stephenville in the Bay St. George area. That has not been kept in our view~and the bill which I know I am not allowed to debate and so I will not - the bill which comes a little further on to establish a - I forget the name of it - the Bay St.

George Community College or whatever the exact title of it is, in our view that is not sufficient discharge of that commitment. But also, Sir, we think conside~tion should be given to the Central Newfoundland area. We think it is a very valid and a very valuable point ·. We think the people of Central Newfoundland should have as much consideration given to them as the people of any other part of this province. I have made the further point, Sir, that the reasons for establishing this institution other than in St. John's includes the fact that it is an economic benefit to the area coneerned.

It will create a significant number of positions. The gentleman from Humber East, the president of the council,confirmed my opinion yesterday when I said that the Western Regional College has been almost a new industry to Corner Brook. It has put a lot of money in circulation, created a number of jobs, brought new people into the community and provided work for people who were there. Also there is the matter of access. St. John's happens to be in the least accessible part of this province. It is at one end of the province.

Obviously the reason it was settled first is that it sticks out furthest into the Atlantic, given the fact that Cape Spear is hardly a salubrious place to live, the nearest and logical harbour. The same reason that Conception Bay

March 22, 1977 Tape 1164 JM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: was settled, led the first white man to live here permanently - not the first white men but the first Europeans to come to Newfoundland,they were the Norse people the better part of a thousand years ago. But the first Europeans to come to Newfoundland to live naturally chose Conception Bay and St. John's. The district of Port de Grave I guess is probably the longest continuously inhabited part of this province. MR. SMALLWOOD: I take it to be the Southern Shore. MR.

ROBERTS: My friend from Twillingate,an acknowledged authority on the history of the Province,says that of course the Southern Shore was inhabited early on in. In fact the Carter family,now represented by the present member for St. John's North,I believe a descendent of the Carter family, the surrogate Carter was it family go way back, a well known Southern Shore family. MR. SMALLWOOD: 1749. MR. ROBERTS: 1749. -~ MR. SMALLWOOD: They were there 200 years before that. MR.. ROBERTS: so,you know, 1.

March 22 1977 Tape 1165 Page 1. MR. ROBERTS: the Southern Shore. But Eastern Newfoundland the Atlantic Face of the Avalon Peninsula,was settled early on and people have stayed here, I often l~onderr why when I get up and look at the weather and compare it with - other parts of the province, but fair enough, no argument with having the university here, the :apital here, but we should realize that it is not the most convenient place for many citizens of this province.

Accordingly I think tole should do what we can to help to make it easier for !tudents who live in other parts of the province to come to these new post-secondary institutions. In our mind, Mr. Speaker, those are powerful reasons for establishing this new institution outside of St. John's. The government is supposed to establish it in St. John's .We think that is a bad policy. We ask it to be reconsidered. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other points which could be made l-Tith respect to the Bill. I thought some of the points made by hon. gentlemen opposite were very relevant and very pertinent and very strong.

The member for St. John's East, and Heaven's alone knows, Sir, that he and I do not agree on a great number of things in this Rouse,but I think for once we are in agreement,and I might say the same with the gentleman from Kilbride, the former minister of Health, the former member of St. John's South, now representing the 'District of Kilbride, when they said that this House does not have sufficient control over the new institution proposed to be created. Then the gentleman from St. John's East extended that to tpe present university,! believe.

I did not hear all of his remarks of the university, Hydrq and he named another one-. Liquor Corporation twas it ? Housing Corporation ? - I do not know if the honourable gentleman mentioned the Liquor Corporation or not. But, Sir, these are great agencies of the state involving great sums of money, involving large parts of our public debt,

March 22, 1977 Tape 1165 Page 2. MR.ROBERTS: involving great parts of our annual expenditure. A large portion of the spectrum of the services offered by the Government of this Province to the people of this Province ls embodied in these agencies. It is right to sa~ that they are not subject to any effective control by this House. Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro,we may get a crack at it once a year Sir, if a Bill happens to come in for debate involving Hydro. The Liquor Corporation, I do not even know if there is a token amount in the estimates any more for them.

If it is it is only a token, we do not see their budget here. The university rise up in righteous or self-righteous wrath and indignation if anybody even asks a question. I will wager that the president of the Treasury Board gets that reaction when he goes or sends his officials to talk to them. They send the budget,which at least when I saw them as a min~ster and as a member of the then Treasury Board was somewhat cursory. They resented supplying further additional information and I will wager the minister who is in the House can gainsay me if I am wro~g. I will wager things have not changed too much since then.

The Housing Corpporatio~,I suspect the same way. I did not have a great deal to do with them during my time in the Cabinet. It never fell within an area of ministerial responsibility for which I was responsible • But I suspect that they too would resent government prying in and asking questions~•prying 1 would be the phrase they would put on it. I would put on another phrase, the government exercising proper and legitimate control.

Maybe the answer is to constitute a standing committee or committees, not a select committee but a standing committee or committees, let these agencies appear for these corranittees, the budget should not be secret. I agree we have no right to interfere with the academic freedom of the university,and I know that no member of the House would want to intefere with the academic freedom of our university. But wanting to know

March 22, 1977 Tape 1165 Page 3. MR~iOBERTS: where the money goes,Mr. Speaker, is not interfering with academic freedom,it is preserving democratic freedom. Because, Sir, we are the boys- I know the government are the government~but it is the House of Assembly that approves the expenditure of money- we are the buckoos who have to find the money and we are the buckoos who have to levy the taxes,not the government. The government represents the majority in the House and thus has the control of the House. The Government is not the House, Sir~ I think we have the right to know this.

The standing committee,or committees,could function within the parliamentary system. It is not the congressinnal system, that is a different thing altogether. But a standing committee, much like the Public Accounts Committee that is bringing out good information, a committee before which officials could appear and the budgets could be.submitted. We might do the same for ·Medicare. There is precious little information in the Medicare. _ about Medicare submitted to the House.

When I was minister of Health I insisted-that the Medicare budget be printed as an appendix to the estimates which I as minister of Health brought before the House. There was a lot of grumbling, but you know, in the long run, the minister puts his foot down on a matter like that he will have his way. I did put my foot down and I did have my way. If any hon. member wants to go back to the estimates for 1970-71 fiscal year he will find-

March 22, 1977 Tape 1166 JM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: and the 1971-1972 fiscal year-he will find printed therein a very complete

summary budget of the expenditures which Medicare would incur in that year,some of which would come from Ottawa and some of which would come from us. In those halcyon days much of it came from Ottawa,but I know the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Justice will agree with me now that those halcyon days have gone forever,unfortunately. Now the Government of the Province must find the money for Medicare and have been given a littl~ extra taxing room and a few extra equalization points to enable them to do so,and the Minister of Finance,I know,would welcome that.

I am sure he was looking upon that as a challenge to fill in the odd moments in his daily routine. MR. DOODY: I know I am odd. MR. ROBERTS: I did not say the minister was odd~but if the minister feels he is odd- But, Mr. Speaker, I think we should look at a standing committee,or a number of standing committees. They could obtain so~e ~xpertise. The House does not meet that often that ~ there is not sufficient time in the year for a committee to go to work. A budget could come in.

There would be some questions,if questions were asked by members, much like the Public Accounts Committee,which I think has functioned well and functioned effectively. I think the House, Sir, has a right to be proud of the Public Accounts Committee. So I put that suggestion up to the minister. I think it builds upon the point raised by the gentleman from St. John's East and the gentleman from Kilbride,and I . think it represents a logical and a proper extension. I am not sure the House itself is the proper place to do it.

I would have no objection,but the ~tanding committee at least gives members of the House the opportunity, and might be a little less cumbersome than the House itself, particularily given the fact of course the estimates debates are limited to seventy-five hours and whether it is caused by that

March 22, 1977 Tape 1166 JM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: fact or not·l\and in my view it is-the estimates debates for the last three or four years are not something of which any member of this House can take any pride or in which he could take any joy. Mr. Speaker, the bill itself is almost innocuous. I believe it is the first substantive bill other than an amendment, the first ~ubstantive bill that the minister has presented during his term as minister. Am I correct? The minister nods acquiescence. It is too bad that he could not have had better stuff than this for us. You know,there is nothing to it. It is cream puff. You know,it sets up a new board, a new institute, that

section 3,and it talks about separate colleges and training programmes in fisheries, navigation, marine science and marine technology. Well that is what we now have. We have th~~llege of Fisheries - one of the greatest things started by the gentleman from Twillingate during his y~ars as Premier. He had this idea and I think he was jeered at by a lot but he persevered, great qualities of perserverance and he carried through with it with the help of men like~I guess,the late Dr. Cooper. Doug Cooper is dead now I believe, Dr. Cooper? AN HON. MEMBER: He is dead. MR. ROBERTS: And the late Dr.

William Hampton, a Newfoundlander who went away to the Boston States and did extraord .inarily well and then came home again and put the last years of his life into the Fisheries College. So that is not new. Pharmacy and paramedical technology - well the College of Trades and Technology now offers pharmacy courses. I got that going during my time as Health Minister,and the paramedical teChnological courses have been offered there I guess as long as there has been a College of Trades and Technology. Before that the General Hospital offered them. Business education and applied arts, again that is now at

~- March 22, 1977 Tape 1166 JM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: the College of Trades and Technology, probably the backbone of their courses .• And finally,vocational trades and skilled handicraf·ts.,and again there is nothing new on that. These are now-courses to this effect are now being offered by the government through I guess the divisions of adult education and through the vocational schools throughout the province. So there is nothing new. It says the Governor in Council may by order add additional colleges toi~he institute, well fair enough.

Perhaps a large grant of power to give to the Cabinet but not necessarily offensive in principle. So there is nothing very exciting in it, Sir. It simply puts the College of Fisheries and the College of Trades and Technology under a new administration. If it represented a great new idea, a quantum leap forward in educational policy,then, Sir, we would welcome it. But it does not. It does not represent a new commitment or an expanded commitment to the idea of post-secondary education or specifically post-secondary non-university education.

It does not represent a coliDDitment to the idea of making post-secondary educations more acceptable to the young people of this province. As I said, Sir, it is a cosmetic bill. It is cream-puffery. There is nothing of real substance in it. It is pretty thin gruel indeed. We will vote for it because how can you vote against motherhood? But, Sir, we will vote for it with no joy and with no elation.

~farch 22, 1977 Tape 1167 IB-1 YR. ~OBEPTS: We will vote for it simply because, Sir, if it is the best the minister can do "to!e l·dll welcome that. But, Sir,in so doing 'lfle must express the hope, the very strong wish, that he, Sir, will come in with a real policy for post-secondary education. I could talk for hours on that, the need to co-ordinate ~ur post-secondary education, the need to expand our post-secondary educational facilities both at the university and at. the trades schools and at the College of Trades and at the College of Fisheries. They are all bursting at the seams.

Y.y friend from LaPoile ·(¥R. Neary) gets on it every nm..r and then. But they are bursting at the seams. They turn a~~Y one, two, three students for every student they can take. Some courses have ten, twelve, fifteen applicants for each post, each spot, each seat available in the Fall.

Every member of the House I know has had the experience of members- I am sorry, of constituents coming to them and saying, ncan you help my son or my daughter to get into the Trades Colleg~; or a vocational school?" And you call the principal,and the principals are inevitably accommodating and they do what they . - can, courteous, very courteous, very efficient. Sometimes the students are in, sometimes they are not.

But often the answer comes back saying, ''We have a dozen - the secretarial courses. somet:i.l!'!es a dozen applicants for every single seat that is available: ,\ I think pharmacy is another course that has a very high ratio of applicants to available seats. There is a need for more of these trained people. There is a great need for more facilites, more space to train them. I do not kno'" if · we need more buildings. Buildings are very expensive. Buildings are the easy things to do. We have an awful lot of school buildings in this Province that still are not being used as fully as they could.

I think that given the financial-position of the Province it would be folly to talk about vast new buildings,and it N'ould be misleading to pretend that they are going to come quickly because they are not. The new campus for the polytechnical, you know, my guess is five years away, ten years away, any significant new campus at least.

March 22, 1977 Tape 1167 IE-2 Y.P.. POBEPTS: The site was picked out some time ago. The gentleman from Twillingate (Yr. Smallwood) as Premier - MR. HOUSE: You agree with him? ~. POBEP.TS : I do not even remember where it was,to be honest. I think it is some~mere up in the back of town here. The gentleman for Twillingate (~r. Smallwood) and the then, I guess, ~~inister of Education,or maybe the1'inister of Public 1i7orks picked out the site. It has not been changed in five years. At that stage of course it ~7as only part of an overall plan.

It the minister ·wants to get up and try a cheap,partisan shot, I would say it was only part of an overall plan involving the Western Regional College and expanded facilites in Central Newfoundland. You know,he may find that the much~maligned Smallwood Administration had a lot more plans and thoughts that the present administration,and a lot better plans and thoughts than the present administration. SO~"E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBE~TS: The fact remains that · ~Te have not seen any new policy. We have not seen any new ideas. We have not seen any r.ray to expand the system.

We do hear constantly of rising costs and of pressure on the costs. I can understand those and I appreciate them. I would not want to be president of ~emorial University right now because I think the president and the university have a hopeless job~ The government cannot afford to give them the money they need and yet they have to make the university run with less money than they really need to do the job properly. I think the same is true of Dr. Ken Duggan,the president of the Col.lege of Trades and Technology and the principals of all the schools. There just is not enough money to do the job. }.'P._.

S1'ALU.TOOD: I think Ken has been lobbying for at least ten years. MR. ROBERTS: The bon. gentleman for Twillingate (Mr. Smalhrood) remin~s me that Ken Duggan has been lobbying for at least ten years. I have been subjected,when I was E:ealth Hinister")to some of 1'r. Duggan's lobby and Mr. Mose !-.forgan as well in behalf of the university. But lvhat

~'arch 22, 1977 Tape 1167 IB-3 r:'R. l?.OBEFTS: they say is right. Perhaps they should not be given more priority, perhaps. they should be given ~ore priority, these demands for expenditures. But the fact remains that given the demands from all sources and given the priorities it is not going to be very early before we see a great new campus. Hhat we are going to have to do is make do and that means we should look at the buildings at Stephenville~ and for that ~atter the buildings at Goose Bay, vast buildings there abandoned. The buildings at Stephenville are still nothing like fully used.

You knowsthese should be look at with a vie1:.r to seeing if "'e can use them. They might not be ideal,but if we cannot have CadilJa~~ let us at least have Chevs. It is better than walking. As I said, Sir, 'tve will support the bill, not that that, I guess, particularly concerns the minister. The government are not going to be defeated on this issue. But whether they would be or not we will support it. There is nothing .... rrong with it,but we are not excited about it. ~oJe do not think it means very much to the young people of this Province. I think it is, as I said yesterday, ~r.

Speaker, it is a piece of cosmetic tomfoolery designed by a group of men who have no real programme or policy to put forward. So they said, '"l;.]ell~"re have got to do someth:f.ng, boys. Let us put together a b:Ul and we will try to pretend it is something:'you know, more than

~arch 22 19 77 Tape 1168 Page 1. MR.ROBERTS: in my view it really is. Mr. Speaker, with these few remarks I will conclude what I have to say. My friend from Stephenville. wished to say a word or two on this Bill. I do not know where he is- here he comes. My friend from Stephenville, ~ir 1 has a real interest both in education,and in particular education in the w~~tern part of the province , and nat surpri~~ngly,_ educational matters in the town of Stephenville.

I wished to say a few words,and I am glad he is back in his seat because I think the ministe;~you know, the minister obviously will rise if nobody else does -and of course when the minister rises he closes the debate, a fact that Yr. Speaker will inform us of by Standing Rule, by Standing Orders. So, Mr. Speaker, with these few brief remarks I will ~onclude what I have to say on this .What I have said I say with regret and not with any enthusiasm, with any glee. It is not a bad Bill but it is certainly not a good Bill.

It is a pit~ that the minister~ a man of ability and knowledge and talent and dedication and skill - A lot of good things about him;- a little off in hi~ . politfcal opinions,in my view,but a man of very real talents and achievements~ It is a pity, Sir, that the government could not have made it pos~ible for him to do as I know he wanted to do, that is to bring in a meaningful policy, a substantive policy, one that could benefit the younger people of this province. This Bill will not do either Sir. MR.. SPRAKER: The hon. member for St. John's North. MR..CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just have a very few words to say, as I understand the hon. member for Stephenville wishes to say a word or two so I can assure him that I will not be that long. The first consideration in this Bill~I suppose, the first matter that most bon. members have ment::f.oned when speaking about this Bill ,is the location of the facility. I understand that the location is already picked out and it is quite near this building, on the Higgins Line. However, Mr. Speaker, it is certainly possible it could be located either in one other place or in several other places. It may eventually

March 22, 1977 Tape 1168 Page 2. MR..CARTER: grow to be quite a large institution. It could possibly be located in St. John's South, or perhaps in LaPoile. However, it may very well be that it will have multipleloca;ions. I hear the name Windsor. I think we all,all hon. members~ought to get'UP and give an impassioned speech that it be put in their particular district~ I, myself, would opt for St. John's North~but there is not enough space in St. John's Horth to locate any more major buildings. It is pretty well filled up.

The one thing I do hope ;vhen it is established that they do not follow the present practice of many of the schools of just passing out high marks for very little effort. It is the most unfortunate development in education that pupils seem to get extremely high ~arks with very little effort,and teachers who do not pass most of their class are most highly regarded. I think this is a deplorable development and I hope that the current trend will soon run its course. Now, ~fr. Speaker, we are living in times of tremendous change. Everybody says this; it is trite to say it any more.

But it has been estimated that our children may have to change their jobs · three times in the course of their life as their technical skills become outmoded and they have to learn new technical skills. In my ·own short life I have seen tremendo~~ developments, plastics, electronics, television, automation where repetitive physical processes are done by machinery. The latest thing now is a thing called cybernation,where repetitive mental processes ar~ now done by machinery. In fact, perhaps the day may not be too distant when the work of this House of Assembly could almost be done by a computer.

However, until it is,we mortals must try and do our best. In any event this technical college that we are speaking about, this polytechnic ·, should grow to deal with all the relevant developments of our increasingly technical society. Of course,

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1169 Page 1 - mw Mr. J. Carter. no one can predict just how great the developments in the next years will be. The only thing one can say is that if the past twenty-five or thirty years are any ,yardstick,the developments in the next twenty-five or thirty years will be many times greater. There is no question in my mind~or I am sure in the minister's mind,that this facility is going to be expensive. And, of course, the question has to arise, Who is going to pay for it?

Now, of course, we are all look~ng towards the federal government, and we expect that the federal government will share this at least on a fifty/fifty, preferably on a seventy-five/twenty-five, and maybe even a ninety/ten basis. I think one hundred per cent is too much to expect, but we can certainly expect that the federal government, if properly approached, will fund this on a greater than fifty -to fifty basis. And, of course, there will be many endowment funds that we can look for. The Ford Foundation has, as I understand it, hundreds of millions of dollars for worthy causes.

And then this is not to mention various wealthy members of our society in Newfoundland. As an example, I would take the bon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood),who cannot possibly, with all charity, live much longer, and who it is said has amassed a great deal -of wealth in his long life, both by efforts of writing and dint of other activities. And I am sure that he would gladly remember such a facility in his will. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. gentleman yield? MR. CARTER: Yes, certainly. MR.

SMALLWOOD: So far from having amassed wealth, large or small amount, the fact is that I am bankrupt,and anyone could go to the court and move· my bankruptcy and the court would have no choice. I myself could go and petition to be declared insolvent and the court would have no choice. I am living on sufferance that no: one will move 1111: bankruptcy. That is a long way from great wealth, is it not?

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1169 Page 2 - mw MR. J. CARTER: The hon. member for 'l.Willingate (Mr. Smallwood) underestimates his worth. Many of his publications and his various papers I am sure in the years to come will be worth a great deal and perhaps he would undertake to - MR.. SMALLWOOD: If the hon. member would allow me? I have given all my papers as a gift to the university, also my complete collection of books and pictures and prints and paintings on Newfoundland, all of them as a ·free gift to the university. MR.. J.

CARTER: Perhaps the hon. gentleman ~s willing at least to leave his body to this facility, because I understand there are to be some paramedical. studies. However, be that as it may- !om • . NEARY Leave your brain so that they can have a look at it. MR.. J. CARTER: In any event, Mr. Speaker, I understand that this facility is going to cost a great deal and the funds for it will have to come from many sources. I would like at this · point to concur with the bon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) when he said that any such facility ought to table its budget.

Not only should the Auditor General have access to its books for after the effect, but its budget ought to be tabled so that we can predict,and they should come to this House of Assembly for the authority to spend their year's allotment of funds. And I firmly believe, Mr. Speaker, that Memorial University, the Hydro Company and certain other Crown corporations, in fact all Crown corporations, should come to this House of Assembly to seek the permission to spend their allotted money, to tell us what it is exactly · they want, ' and what it is they want it for.

To my way of thinking one of the saddest developments in parliamentary hi~tory is the ability for Crown corporations to hide themselves away,poke themselves away in the corner of same budget under some innocent looking heading that may cover many millions of dollars.

March 22, 1977 Tape no. 1169 Page 3- mw MR. J. CARTER: I understand from reading the bill that there is going to be a: par~dical emphasis. How great it wi.ll. be depends, I suppose, on medical developments and the funds available; but I do not think it is beyo~ the scope of this bill for me to have a word or two to say about the denturists. I think that their programme is a most disappointing one. It is a most - I am sad to see that here is an effort by what should be a responsible group of people, to escape

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1170 NM- 1 MR. J. CARTER: the medical umbrella, to try and work outside the medical authorities. The implication that they leave is that mankind were sort of made like the gingerbread men in an oven, that they are very simple, all you have to do is pick a set of teeth and they will work perfectly. I would like to ask the denturists how· many of them have ever dissected a human head? It is not a very pleasant subject but I understand all dentists have. Not only that,but I think they have all had very, very complete courses in anatomy.

Now if a denturist wants to work on teeth I would say to him let him go and spend seven years in a college and then come out and call himself a dentist and not try and pass this kind of nonsense in front of an intelligent group cf people. I think it is a scandalous - the more I think of it the hotter I get· • . I have had a great deal of trouble with my own teeth in my life and the last group I would like to allow near my teeth is someone who is untrained .And thank goodness, Mr, Speaker, that we now have a trained dental community in Newfoundland, something that did not always exist, not even in my short memory.

There is also a mention in this act, Mr. Speaker, that all the members of the board should be appointed.

I would like to ask the minister,so that when he gets up to speak on it, what he thinks of the possibility of having some of the members of this board elected-and elected~well I am not sure hm.r they should be elected, whether they should be elected by the alumni of this college or by the community at large -but · I would like to ask him what he thinkS.of the possibility of havit].g some members of the so-called Board of Governors, not Board of Regents, Board of Governors, as mentioned in this Act, having them elected.

I think another department that this polytechnical college should have is some department to do with roads~and I am glad the Minister of Transportation is here in the House because the roads in this Province, and I do not think it is any fault of his own, partly neglect from the previous administration, partly the

March 22, 1977 Tape No. 1170 NM- 2 MR. J. CARTER: vagaries of our weather and partly the poorly designed roads. I think that if we could turn out a few road scholars this facility would certainly be well worth having. Anyway, with these few thoughts, ~r. Speaker, I will defer to the hon. member for Stephe:o_ville ('Mr. Mcilleil) who I believe also would like to contribute to this debate. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. W. HCNEIL: Mr.Speaker, I just have a few remarks to make on the polytechnical college. I would like to su